John and Julie Gottman: What 70,000-person sex study found

1. 0:00 – 2:28

   Intro

   1. JGJulie Gottman0:00

      When the sex falls away, it can become a serious problem.

   2. JGJohn Gottman0:03

      And the largest study done on the quality of sex with 70,000 people in 24 countries found the differences between people who say they have a great sex life and an awful sex life has to do with it.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett0:14

      Really?

   4. JGJulie Gottman0:15

      Yeah, that's right. (instrumental music plays)

   5. NANarrator0:16

      Drs. John and Julie Gottman are world-renowned psychologists...

   6. SBSteven Bartlett0:19

      And researchers who have studied over 40,000 couples...

   7. JGJohn Gottman0:22

      Written over 50 books...

   8. NANarrator0:23

      And helped millions of people find and stay in love for over 50 years.

   9. JGJulie Gottman0:28

      People don't know how to have good relationships.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett0:30

       So, I've got so many questions. I'll start from the top. What are we getting wrong?

   11. JGJulie Gottman0:34

       Well, first of all, most people are living under the myth that you have to be compatible with a partner, which is absolutely wrong.

   12. JGJohn Gottman0:42

       And this is really interesting. There's a T-shirt study where women smelled T-shirts that had been worn by men for at least two days and selected the ones they thought smelled the best, and they found they were selecting the men that were as most divergent from them genetically rather than people who were like them. 'Cause we're not really turned on by our clone.

   13. JGJulie Gottman1:00

       And there isn't a one. Looking for the one is a big mistake.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett1:04

       What about, how do I become the most attractive version of me if I'm looking for a partner?

   15. JGJohn Gottman1:08

       That's a great question.

   16. JGJulie Gottman1:09

       And this is what you do. (instrumental music plays)

   17. SBSteven Bartlett1:11

       This is a difficult question to ask, but have you ever seen cheating help a relationship?

   18. JGJulie Gottman1:16

       Oh, very, very often.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett1:18

       Really?

   20. JGJulie Gottman1:18

       When there's recovery.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett1:19

       But can it be treated?

   22. JGJulie Gottman1:21

       75% so far in our research.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett1:24

       Wow.

   24. JGJulie Gottman1:25

       We developed a model, and here's what it involves. First... (music stops)

   25. SBSteven Bartlett1:32

       This is a sentence I never thought I'd say in my life. Um, we've just hit seven million subscribers on YouTube, and I wanna say a huge thank you to all of you that show up here every Monday and Thursday to watch our conversations, um, from the bottom of my heart but also on behalf of my team, who you don't always get to meet. There's almost 50 people now behind the Diary of a CEO that worked to put this together, so from all of us, thank you so much. Um, we did a raffle last month, and we gave away prizes for people that subscribed to the show up until seven million subscribers, and you guys loved that raffle so much that we're gonna continue it. So every single month, we're giving away money can't buy prizes, including meetings with me, invites to our events, and £1,000 gift vouchers to anyone that subscribes to the Diary of a CEO. There's now more than seven million of you, so if you make the decision to subscribe today, you can be one of those lucky people. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. Let's get to the conversation. (instrumental music plays) John, Julie,

2. 2:28 – 5:08

   What Do You Do?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:28

      why do you both do what you do?

   2. JGJulie Gottman2:31

      (laughs)

   3. SBSteven Bartlett2:32

      (laughs)

   4. JGJulie Gottman2:33

      I love that question. One has to define what we do, and there are many things that we do. First of all, I love to write. That's great. I've been helping people since I was eight years old, for some odd reason. Uh, and I love, love, love connecting with people and loving them through their pain.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett2:55

      Hmm.

   6. JGJulie Gottman2:56

      That's why I do what I do.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett2:57

      And would you class yourself as a clinical psychologist? Is that your official title?

   8. JGJulie Gottman3:01

      Yes.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett3:02

      Okay. John, could you answer the same question, which is, why do you do what you do, and I guess what you do?

   10. JGJohn Gottman3:07

       Well, to me, it's really an interesting puzzle to try to understand what makes relationships work and what makes groups work, what, what makes people be cooperative versus competitive, selfish, and mean, what makes them be altruistic and empathetic, uh, what makes, what makes relationships become sources of longevity and health versus illness and loneliness and despair. So for me, it's a puzzle, and it's fun to work on a puzzle.

   11. JGJulie Gottman3:42

       (laughs)

   12. SBSteven Bartlett3:43

       And what do you do?

   13. JGJohn Gottman3:45

       I measure things accurately and reliably and, you know, then really just kind of see where the data fall out.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett3:54

       Yeah.

   15. JGJohn Gottman3:54

       So, um, it's really applying statistics and measurement and good math to try to understand processes that are going on between people with this really ultimate question of what, what makes relationships work and what makes groups work, what makes humans cooperative and magnificent at their best versus selfish, uh, greedy, and functioning at their worst. So, it's curiosity that drives me. That's all.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett4:28

       And collectively, how many people do you think you've studied, researched, treated, worked with in your practice over the last however many decades?

   17. JGJohn Gottman4:40

       Well, we've done research on 40,000 couples about to start couples therapy, uh, using questionnaires, and then more intensely using physiology and, and objective rating of emotional behavior, about 3,000 couples followed over time as long as 20 years.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett4:59

       And how many books have you collectively written, Julie?

   19. JGJulie Gottman5:04

       I think we're on 51, but I'm not sure.

3. 5:08 – 9:55

   What We Doing Wrong About Dating

   1. JGJulie Gottman5:08

      (laughs)

   2. SBSteven Bartlett5:08

      (laughs)

   3. JGJulie Gottman5:08

      I've lost count. (laughs)

   4. SBSteven Bartlett5:10

      I, um, uh, where I wanted to start with this conversation is, is really with, I guess, the subject of relationships but how we find and form them in the modern society, because when you look at the stats, despite the incredible work you've done over the last couple of decades, it doesn't seem that we're better at finding and keeping relationships than ever before. If you, especially if you look at non-romantic relationships, you know, loneliness and isolation are at absolute all-time highs, and the technology that was invented over the last couple of decades came with a promise, which was that it was gonna connect us, but it doesn't seem to have succeeded. So, I really wanna start by answering this question about how people find love and form those relationships in the modern world and, like, what the data says and what, what our psychology says about where we're going wrong. I had some independent research that I found, uh, that says according to the US Census Bureau, nearly 50% of the US population are currently single.... according to the 2023 survey by Pew Research, about 33% of men reported being single, followed by 28% of women. The average first marriage for men is 30 years old, for women it's about 28. Um, we're having less sex than ever before, um, we're getting in relationships later than ever before. Marriages still seem to break down, almost half of them. Um, you probably know those numbers better than me. And almost half of people are using dating apps, but I think if you speak to anybody that uses a dating app, they feel like they're all having a bad time. When we think about finding someone to love us, or that we love, how much of our effort should be about actively going out there and putting ourselves out there, buying a new dress, whatever it is, putting ourselves out there in the market, versus the internal work of building ourselves into someone that is a magnet instead of a door-to-door salesman?

   5. JGJulie Gottman7:04

      (laughs) Oh, beautiful.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett7:05

      You know what I mean?

   7. JGJulie Gottman7:06

      Beautiful, yes. Um, I love your, uh, thought about developing ourselves internally, because that's what goes wrong that makes dating apps so terrible. Many, many people suffer from terrible insecurity, right?

   8. SBSteven Bartlett7:23

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JGJulie Gottman7:23

      They feel shame, they may have been criticized a lot as a kid or in their work, and as a result, they hide out. They hide, and what they present to the world, either through dating apps, this is very common, or just even meeting people at a party, is something they're not. It's something that they believe is the ideal, but where are they getting their information? They're getting it from TV, from Hollywood, from idealized heroes and heroines that are not real. Also, they're living under the myth that you have to be compatible with a partner.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett8:04

       Hmm.

   11. JGJulie Gottman8:04

       Which is absolutely wrong, as we'll talk about. Um, in other words, you have to have the same interests, the same values, uh, maybe the same background, the same, uh, class you were raised in, and so on. All of that is wrong, interestingly enough. So when you talk about building that internal world, basically what you're saying is trust your own intuition, trust who you are. People will come to you if you are genuinely yourself. And if you're not, um, then people may mistake you for somebody else, have an expectation of who you are, and you're in- inevitably gonna fail that expectation, which then gives you a negative experience, uh, because you feel like this other person is rejecting you and doesn't like you. But the reality is, they're not rejecting you, they're rejecting this idealized portrait that you tried to present to them, which isn't real.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett9:12

       I guess a lot of people would think when they hear that, "But Julie, if I show up as myself, no one's gonna love me."

   13. JGJulie Gottman9:20

       Yeah. That's right.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett9:21

       Especially on a first date.

   15. JGJulie Gottman9:22

       That's right. That's right. That's, you know, that's the sadness. People don't believe, because of all that criticism in the society, that they're worthy of love. They don't believe it. They have to, you know, be, uh, I don't know what, Bruce Willis or something, in order to, uh, have somebody attracted to them, have somebody really want to get to know them.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett9:50

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JGJulie Gottman9:50

       Which isn't true at all. In fact, it's the opposite.

4. 9:55 – 11:39

   How Do We Find True Love?

   1. JGJulie Gottman9:55

   2. SBSteven Bartlett9:55

      What do you think to that, John?

   3. JGJohn Gottman9:57

      You know, I've been thinking a lot about this question of, you know, how do we find true love? Um, and, you know, p- part of the problem, I think, is that, um, as you mentioned, loneliness is a very serious thing. And, um, and so many people are lonely. And part of what they haven't done is t- is build a friendship network that can support them. Friends are just so important as a precondition for finding the love of your life, because, you know, the, the research that's been done on strangers now shows that people think that 97% of strangers, if they talk to them, will be rejecting, and will feel like they're invading their privacy. But the data shows that just the opposite is true, that when you approach a stranger, almost 97% of the time, they're quite delighted to be contacted, and they, and they meet an initial contact with interest, enthusiasm. And so talking to strangers turns out to be really a very important thing.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett11:11

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JGJohn Gottman11:11

      And turning a stranger into a friend, turning your social networks into places that are not alienating, that are, you know, places where you actually can enjoy human company-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett11:24

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JGJohn Gottman11:24

      ... uh, is an important pre- prerequisite to dating. So, I would say you need to build that friendship network first. And once you're not lonely, you're not desperate, and then you can find somebody much more easily.

5. 11:39 – 13:51

   What Is The Most Attractive Thing In A Person?

   1. JGJohn Gottman11:39

   2. SBSteven Bartlett11:39

      I think this is a really interesting point, which is y- y- you finish there by saying, "If you're not lonely, you're not desperate," and I was, I was thinking as you were talking about what the most attractive version of me is to the world. If I'm looking to find a partner, whether I'm a man or a woman, um, it doesn't sound like a desperate version of me is a very attractive version of me.

   3. JGJohn Gottman12:00

      Right.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett12:00

      So on this point of attraction, we'll start with you, John, and then we'll go... 'Cause we started with Julie last time, what do we know about what makes people attracted to each other? Like, how do I become the most attractive version of me to the world if I'm looking for a partner?

   5. JGJohn Gottman12:14

      I think everyone is really interesting and attractive as long as, you know, they're with somebody who's curious about them. So, uh, if you're with somebody who's really snobby and, uh, you know, condescending and superior, nobody is at their best.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett12:32

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JGJohn Gottman12:32

      You know? But when you're with somebody who's really interested in you, then you can really emerge and just about everybody is really interesting. Their thoughts are unique and their background is interesting and their, their goals and their, their struggles are really fascinating. So, um, I think it's the social context that makes the difference rather than the individual. So the problem with dating apps, I think, is that they create this very artificial situation in which everyone's being evaluated-

   8. SBSteven Bartlett13:07

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JGJohn Gottman13:07

      ... and assessed, and they're swiping left, you know, all the time. "Well, that person's not quite right, not quite right, not quite right, not quite right." The research of Eli Finkel shows that there's nothing you can measure in two individuals that will predict whether they like each other.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett13:25

       There's nothing you can measure?

   11. JGJohn Gottman13:26

       Nothing you can measure. In fact, you can actually ask people exactly what they're looking for in a partner and find that exact person in a large database, and it's very unlikely that they'll like that person when they meet them.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett13:42

       (laughs)

   13. JGJohn Gottman13:44

       Yet if you randomly pair them with strangers, 22% of people like each other when they first meet.

6. 13:51 – 16:13

   The Role Of Self Esteem In How Attractive You Come Across

   1. SBSteven Bartlett13:52

      I wonder about the role that self-esteem plays-

   2. JGJohn Gottman13:56

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett13:56

      ... in attraction. It's kind of what we were talking about with, like, being desperate, maybe they're-

   4. JGJohn Gottman13:59

      That's right.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett13:59

      They feel like a similar thing. And I wonder if there's any, like, data that supports this idea that self-esteem or your self-perception is this invisible force that makes you attractive or not attractive. I've actually seen it in some of my friends, who I won't name, who started going to the gym. And just because they started working on themselves, it's almost like they grew six inches. Like, they just were like different people.

   6. JGJohn Gottman14:23

      Yeah.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett14:23

      So yeah, a lot of attraction we think, like, "Go get the blow dry," or, "Go get a better outfit." But th- this goes back to this point about how much of it is actually, like, do the internal work. What do you think?

   8. JGJohn Gottman14:35

      I think there's a lot be- to be said for that.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett14:37

      Yeah.

   10. JGJohn Gottman14:38

       If you have a group of friends, you know, who really like you and you really like them, then it's easier to emerge.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett14:47

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JGJohn Gottman14:47

       And, you know, this, this dating situation is so artificial that people are so terrified, you know, when they meet somebody. And instead of approaching them with curiosity about them, they're worried that they won't make a good impression. And they're so self-conscious of themselves, rather than being curious and interested in the other person. And 'cause if they are curious and interested in the other person, you know, it doesn't matter what happens, right?

   13. SBSteven Bartlett15:17

       (laughs)

   14. JGJohn Gottman15:17

       I mean, uh, you meet somebody new and you learn about them, and it's an interesting experience, and maybe they're interested in you too. So the dating experience is just kind of fun, you know? It's about exploring-

   15. SBSteven Bartlett15:30

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JGJohn Gottman15:31

       ... two people exploring one another. And then there's no objective. There's no, there's no real goal there, and then it's much less artificial. And then when you meet somebody you really click with, that's a wonderful experience.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett15:46

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JGJohn Gottman15:46

       And especially when you meet an outlier.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett15:49

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JGJohn Gottman15:50

       Like I met Julie, I dated 60 women before I met Julie. She's number 61.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett15:55

       As you like to tell it.

   22. JGJohn Gottman15:56

       I had a database. (laughs) So I knew I met an outlier. For me, she was an outlier-

   23. SBSteven Bartlett16:02

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JGJohn Gottman16:02

       ... because I just loved interacting with her. It was just so much fun. And, uh, she was head and shoulders above any person I'd met before.

7. 16:13 – 18:30

   There Isn't 'The One'

   1. JGJohn Gottman16:13

   2. SBSteven Bartlett16:13

      Do you know what's interesting though? When people look at you two and when they look at other relationships, they'll go, "Okay, John, I get it. So you gotta make a database. You gotta wait till the, you find the one."

   3. JGJohn Gottman16:22

      Right.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett16:23

      And this is often the cause of much procrastination as it relates to love.

   5. JGJohn Gottman16:27

      (laughs)

   6. SBSteven Bartlett16:27

      Everyone's looking for the Julie, you know? Like I'm coming, Julie.

   7. JGJulie Gottman16:29

      And there isn't one. You know, that's one of the, the other myths. There isn't a one. And it's funny because we've seen this in our research on the opposite end of it, and here's what I mean. Every pairing of people, uh, no matter how wonderful they are, no matter how much you love them, the two of you will always have perpetual problems between you. And those are based on either lifestyle preference differences or personality differences, always. And at some point, those conflict. And so, you know, what we saw in our research was, you know, something like 69% of the conflicts that couples suffer from or have are perpetual problems. They never go away. So, you know, when I have somebody coming into my office that says, "I wanna find my soulmate, my soulmate." It's like, "Huh? What's a soulmate?"

   8. SBSteven Bartlett17:28

      (laughs)

   9. JGJulie Gottman17:28

      You know, I mean, there, you out of, out of whatever, in the US we have what, 350 million people. There's probably 500,000 of them that you would find wonderful and attractive, right? So looking for the one is a big mistake (laughs) because inevitably they snore at night-

   10. SBSteven Bartlett17:52

       (laughs)

   11. JGJulie Gottman17:52

       ... or, you know, they eat with their mouth open or, you know, something that drives you crazy. So, okay, so you're not looking for the perfect person. You're not the perfect person. And that's what I was referring to earlier as, you know, let's see each other as human beings. There is no perfection. We are all flawed. We all have cracks in us, and those can be seen as beautiful too. We don't have to be perfect to be loved.... right?

   12. JGJohn Gottman18:28

       Yeah.

   13. JGJulie Gottman18:28

       Right. (laughs)

8. 18:30 – 21:11

   Are We Attracted To People Different To Us?

   1. JGJulie Gottman18:30

   2. SBSteven Bartlett18:30

      It's interesting 'cause th- that marries to something that I was reading about in your books, where you talk about how we're often attracted to people who are very different from ourselves, and just the very nature that they're different from us means that there's gonna be that pretty much constant conflict. Why is it the case that we're attracted to people that are different from ourselves? Is that true, um-

   3. JGJohn Gottman18:48

      Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett18:48

      ... because it doesn't seem to make sense on the surface. You'd think I would be attracted to someone that likes Manchester United-

   5. JGJohn Gottman18:53

      (laughs)

   6. SBSteven Bartlett18:54

      ... and, you know, liked my favorite food and my favorite stuff-

   7. JGJohn Gottman18:56

      Yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett18:56

      ... because then we'll get on, like, a house on fire. But you're telling me that we're attracted to people that like other things.

   9. JGJohn Gottman19:01

      Yeah. Uh, the research of Claus Wedekind is so interesting, uh, this T-shirt study that he did, uh, where women smell T-shirts that have been worn by men for at least two days, and selected the ones they thought smelled the best.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett19:17

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JGJohn Gottman19:17

       Uh, they actually were selecting... What Wedekind found was they were selecting T-shirts of men whose pheromones were attractive, the men were as most divergent from them genetically, just in the genes of the immune system.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett19:36

       Wait.

   13. JGJohn Gottman19:36

       Very divergent kinds of people smelled really attractive to these women, rather than people who were like them. And actually, the experiment was done, it showed they actually liked those men better than other men they might have met. So-

   14. SBSteven Bartlett19:51

       So, genetically different men.

   15. JGJohn Gottman19:53

       Genetically different-

   16. SBSteven Bartlett19:54

       Okay.

   17. JGJohn Gottman19:54

       ... in terms of the immune system. So here's this, uh, evolutionary explanation of why people are searching for somebody who's really different, 'cause we're not really turned on by our clone. We're not turned on by peop- by people who are just like us. Julie and I are vastly different.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett20:11

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JGJohn Gottman20:12

       She's, you know, this, uh, adventurer, you know, this outdoors person. She loves the trees and hiking- (laughs) ... you know, up mountain trails. I'm an indoorsman. (laughs)

   20. SBSteven Bartlett20:23

       (laughs)

   21. JGJohn Gottman20:23

       I like sitting in my chair and reading books on mathematics and quantum mechanics and general relativity theory.

   22. JGJulie Gottman20:30

       He's a consummate indoorsman, that's for sure.

   23. JGJohn Gottman20:32

       So we're very different, you know, but, you know.

   24. JGJulie Gottman20:34

       (laughs)

   25. SBSteven Bartlett20:34

       What's the evolutionary reason then, do you think, for why we like people that are different?

   26. JGJulie Gottman20:39

       Oh, the genetic immunity.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett20:41

       Yeah.

   28. JGJulie Gottman20:41

       So, um, remember, it's all about reprod- reproduction.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett20:46

       Mm-hmm.

   30. JGJulie Gottman20:46

       Right? So if you've got two very divergent sets of genetics in terms of the immune system, that child is gonna have a broader, uh, genetic base as their immune system, as opposed to two identical or close to it, where they'd have a very narrow genetic base for immune- immunity.

9. 21:11 – 24:52

   Do We Need To Lower Our Expectations?

   1. JGJulie Gottman21:11

   2. SBSteven Bartlett21:12

      Is there anything else, that if- if you were advising me, if I was a single man and I was saying, "Okay, how do I find a partner?" Um, what should I be doing or looking for? Should I make a list of things that I'm looking for? Um, should I be... I don't know, y- uh, you said earlier about being my authentic self-

   3. JGJulie Gottman21:27

      (laughs)

   4. SBSteven Bartlett21:27

      ... as much as I can be, because that- you don't want people to be attracted to your mask, but should I be making a list? Like, what- what should I be going for? Is there qualities that are e- enduring as it relates to success in romance that everyone should be looking for?

   5. JGJulie Gottman21:41

      You know-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett21:42

      Sh- should I lower my expectations?

   7. JGJulie Gottman21:44

      It's not about qualities. It's about... Well, I hate to say it, but it's more about behavior. So, for example, um, and (laughs) I have so many, particularly women, who've been divorced and now they're dating, and they ask that question, and here are several of the things that I always tell them. One is, uh, does the person, male or female, ask you questions about yourself or do they broadcast? Do they just tell you who they are? "Oh my God, my boss just gave me a promotion. Oh my," you know, "Aren't I cool?" Or, "I just won this athletic competition." No. Are they asking you questions about yourself? And not only that, but listening to the answers, right? (laughs) And taking in the answers and, "Oh, that's interesting. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm." That's one.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett22:36

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JGJulie Gottman22:37

      Another is, you know, our society is very striated, right? So, how do they treat people who have, let's say, less social status than they do? How do they treat the waitress who comes to their table? Do they treat them with disdain or scorn or, you know, "The steak is terrible. Take it back."

   10. SBSteven Bartlett23:03

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JGJulie Gottman23:04

       Or are they kind? Do they treat them like human beings? That's another thing. Do they treat people equally or, uh, do they only treat a certain group with respect and the others not?

   12. SBSteven Bartlett23:19

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JGJulie Gottman23:19

       That's number two. Number three is, are they reliable? Do they do what they say they're gonna do? If they say they're gonna call you, do they call you? If they say, "I'll pick you up at 8:00," are they there at 8:00? So, reliability is a big deal, and of course nobody can be perfectly reliable, you know, life happens, but do they call you to let you know, "Oh, I ran into heavy traffic so I'll be 20 minutes late"? So, you know, there's a consideration there of your time, of your energy, curiosity, as John pointed out, uh, as to who you are, and also, um... (laughs) There are so many people who, as you have been talking about, are so terribly lonely. Watch out for this. Watch out for people saying, in the first date, "Oh my God, you're it. You're the answer."

   14. SBSteven Bartlett24:21

       (gasps)

   15. JGJulie Gottman24:21

       (gasps) "Oh my God, you're fantastic. I think I love you." You know, that kind of...... um, rush into "Let's have an intimate relationship right now. I wanna marry you, and I'm gonna ask you tomorrow." No. You know, they... People need to take their time to get to know one another and peel away the layers slowly and carefully to build trust.

10. 24:52 – 29:06

    It's A Red Flag When They Want To Rush Things

    1. SBSteven Bartlett24:52

       Do you think that speed to rush into a relationship is a sign of something else further up-

    2. JGJulie Gottman24:57

       Sure.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett24:57

       ... like further upstream-

    4. JGJulie Gottman24:58

       Sure.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett24:58

       ... maybe insecurity or-

    6. JGJulie Gottman24:59

       You bet. Needy. They're... And I don't like the word needy, um, because everybody has needs. We're pack animals, you know. We need each other. We depend on each other. But, um, somebody who can contain themselves, as you were pointing out.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett25:17

       With or without your energy.

    8. JGJulie Gottman25:18

       That's right.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett25:19

       Yeah.

    10. JGJulie Gottman25:20

        And have done that internal work so that they're not looking to you to answer every problem they have.

    11. JGJohn Gottman25:28

        Mm-hmm. You know, I would give different advice to, to a male who's, who's dating. I, I would say, you know, just have fun. You know, meet people.

    12. JGJulie Gottman25:37

        Huh.

    13. JGJohn Gottman25:37

        Like, uh, when I was-

    14. JGJulie Gottman25:38

        What a concept.

    15. JGJohn Gottman25:38

        ... creating my database, you know, I, I met a woman who was a survivalist. She had a .38 Magnum pistol right by her, by her bedside. And she spent thousands of dollars on gowns to go to opera, 'cause she loved opera. And I remember sitting there in her house and saying, you know, "God, this is really interesting."

    16. JGJulie Gottman25:59

        (laughs)

    17. JGJohn Gottman25:59

        You know, I, I, I don't know if I like this person or I can be with this person, but she's fascinating, you know. It's kinda fun getting to know her. And then at a certain point, there's somebody you meet, like I met Julie, and everything feels right. The world just kind of opens up when you talk. And your heart opens, and it's very different. It's not just interesting. It's really... There's potential there that you don't feel with anybody else.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett26:30

        Were you desperate when you met Julie, though?

    19. JGJohn Gottman26:32

        I don't think I was. No. I don't think I was desperate. I, I'd been divorced for about seven years, and I was looking to meet somebody my, you know, close to my age who, you know, was an interesting person. And, uh, I met a lot of interesting people, but she was different.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett26:50

        I, I ask this question in part 'cause I, I wonder if someone's ever done a study where they take a group of people who are looking to find someone, and then they take a group of people who aren't really looking, and they see who has the most success.

    21. JGJohn Gottman27:01

        Mm-hmm.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett27:01

        And when I say looking, I mean some people are literally looking for a husband, and they, they feel like they need to find one within six months-

    23. JGJohn Gottman27:10

        Hmm.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett27:11

        ... because, you know, biological clocks and goals they might have for their lives and all these kinds of things, versus a group of people that are just open to it. And I wonder who's more attractive.

    25. JGJohn Gottman27:21

        I think either one can work.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett27:23

        Right. Really.

    27. JGJohn Gottman27:23

        You know, I, I don't think there has to be a magic formula. So I think, I think if you approach the whole situation with curiosity and wonder, you know, and just kind of see who you meet and see what happens.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett27:37

        But, but that seems-

    29. JGJulie Gottman27:38

        Mm-mm.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett27:38

        ... almost more like this group here.
11. 29:06 – 31:25

    Can You Fake Confidence?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett29:06

    2. JGJulie Gottman29:06

       (laughs)

    3. SBSteven Bartlett29:06

       But the ones that have that, like... It's- I'll keep going back to that phrase, like with or without your energy, where you're an option to them, you're much more likely to invest. You feel like it's a privilege to invest. And I think about this from the context of the question I just asked. If someone's like, "I need a husband now,"-

    4. JGJohn Gottman29:19

       Yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett29:19

       ... versus someone's like, "I'm open. I'm curious. I'm willing to go on the date and see-"

    6. JGJohn Gottman29:24

       Yeah. Right.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett29:24

       "... if we're right," because I realize that me saying yes to you is a huge investment, so I need to take my time to figure out if that investment is gonna be worthwhile, 'cause I respect myself.

    8. JGJulie Gottman29:35

       Right.

    9. JGJohn Gottman29:35

       Yeah. Maybe you're right.

    10. JGJulie Gottman29:36

        Right. Right.

    11. JGJohn Gottman29:37

        Maybe it's better if you're just kind of confident and not so desperate.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett29:42

        Can you fake confidence, Julie?

    13. JGJulie Gottman29:44

        Mm-mm.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett29:44

        (laughs)

    15. JGJulie Gottman29:45

        Mm-mm.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett29:45

        This is the problem.

    17. JGJohn Gottman29:46

        (laughs)

    18. JGJulie Gottman29:46

        No. You know, as a matter of fact, when people try to fake confidence, they often, um, overstep it. Right? And, uh... Golly, I know... I'll never forget this fellow in high school. He would brag about himself without knowing that he was bragging. He would boast and boast and boast and boast. And I realized, "Oh my God, I cannot stand this." You know, because it was so fake. But, important thing, I realized that the extremity of my negative attitude towards him was because there was a part of me that was just like that, that felt insecure, that wanted to present, you know, this perfect image to people that I wasn't.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett30:34

        Mm-hmm.

    20. JGJulie Gottman30:35

        Uh, which is what he was trying to do.... and so then it's like, "Oh, (laughs) I've got a little work to do on myself."

    21. JGJohn Gottman30:43

        Well, you know one thing, one thing about this dating situation is, that's interesting, is even though there's nothing you can measure in individuals that will predict that they like each other, once they get together and start interacting, our lab can measure if that interaction has promise or not.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett31:03

        Wow.

    23. JGJohn Gottman31:04

        Really, we measure openness, uh, the emotional connection, the fact that people are either connecting with one another, communicating with one another or not. We measure tension versus relaxation when we measure, uh, curiosity and interest.

    24. JGJulie Gottman31:24

        Eye gaze.

    25. JGJohn Gottman31:24

        You know, all of

12. 31:25 – 35:13

    Science Know If People Connect Well Or Not

    1. JGJohn Gottman31:25

       those things. Yeah.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett31:26

       So, so can you give me really specifically exactly how a couple would show up, really specifically, if they were, if they had promise to last and be successful together?

    3. JGJohn Gottman31:36

       So if you watch their videotape, and they had promise, you'd find them laughing together, uh, you know, mirroring each other, smiling, uh, asking questions, being open, uh, wondering about things, and you'd have this real sense of exploration and open- openness, and, um, curiosity and interest in one another, whereas in, in a couple that wasn't doing very well, you'd, you'd sense this tension, uh, sarcasm, a lot of, you know, negativity, uh, bragging about themselves, talking about themselves rather than being interested in the other person.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett32:21

       Body language?

    5. JGJohn Gottman32:22

       Body language.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett32:23

       What would-

    7. JGJohn Gottman32:23

       The ratio of positive to negative emotion in, in those couples would be much less than one, whereas it would be three to one, or five to one among couples who are really getting along very, very well, where there's this potential, this openness and potential.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett32:40

       What's the difference in body language?

    9. JGJulie Gottman32:42

       Let me, let me demonstrate it.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett32:44

        Mm-hmm.

    11. JGJulie Gottman32:44

        So somebody who's overconfident, pretend he's not sitting here, is just gonna be doing ...

    12. SBSteven Bartlett32:50

        So-

    13. JGJulie Gottman32:51

        That.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett32:51

        ... for people that aren't watching, laying back, arm-

    15. JGJulie Gottman32:54

        Laying back, your arm, you know, stretched out over the top of the chair next to you. You're leaning back, you know, which is-

    16. SBSteven Bartlett33:04

        "I'm too good for this."

    17. JGJulie Gottman33:05

        ... "Come to me. Come to me." You know?

    18. JGJohn Gottman33:07

        "It's all me."

    19. JGJulie Gottman33:08

        Um, "It's all about me, and I'm so cool."

    20. JGJohn Gottman33:12

        (laughs)

    21. JGJulie Gottman33:12

        And somebody who is really engaged is gonna be more kind of leaning forward and making eye contact, being fairly relaxed, you know, not, not hunching their shoulders inwards, which shows they're probably depressed, they're insecure, they're hiding out. But, you know, just relaxed, their shoulders are, you know, not up to their ears, um, they're allowing their eye gaze to look away as they think about something, and then they look right at you when they answer the question.

    22. JGJohn Gottman33:53

        Yeah.

    23. JGJulie Gottman33:53

        All of those indicators.

    24. JGJohn Gottman33:57

        That ratio of I to other-

    25. SBSteven Bartlett34:00

        Mm-hmm.

    26. JGJohn Gottman34:01

        ... "I, me, mine," you know, predominates, uh, conversations where there's all this tension.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett34:07

        Say that again, sorry?

    28. JGJohn Gottman34:08

        Is where, you know, the conversation is really about just myself, I'm sort of putting myself in the center, versus being interested in you, being interested in us-

    29. SBSteven Bartlett34:20

        Mm-hmm.

    30. JGJohn Gottman34:20

        ... being interested in we, and, and that emerges, that openness emerges in language as well.
13. 35:13 – 38:04

    How To Build Confidence

    1. JGJulie Gottman35:13

    2. SBSteven Bartlett35:13

       I, um, it's funny, 'cause you were talking about body language a second ago, and many people will click on episodes on YouTube or podcasts that try and teach us body language.

    3. JGJulie Gottman35:24

       Mm, mm-hmm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett35:24

       But I, I think, okay, you can learn some of the things, but really, again, I think body language is a symptom of what's going on inside.

    5. JGJulie Gottman35:31

       How do you-

    6. SBSteven Bartlett35:32

       You know-

    7. JGJulie Gottman35:32

       ... build confidence-

    8. SBSteven Bartlett35:33

       Yeah.

    9. JGJulie Gottman35:33

       ... is really the question. You know, especially when you begin, uh, let's say in a family or with caretakers who are critical and contemptuous of you.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett35:44

        Mm-hmm.

    11. JGJulie Gottman35:45

        And when you have that from practically the ground up, as I did, uh, you internalize that, and you believe you're worthless 'cause you were treated as worthless. So how do you build the confidence, right?

    12. SBSteven Bartlett36:03

        Mm-hmm.

    13. JGJulie Gottman36:03

        So either through maybe therapy, through looking at yourself in the mirror and saying, "All right, this is who I am, this is who I am, this is who I am," you know? What I-

    14. SBSteven Bartlett36:20

        (laughs)

    15. JGJulie Gottman36:20

        (laughs) I, I used to, uh, like almost every single woman, no matter how beautiful you are, you will always measure yourself as inferior to somebody else. Always, as a woman. I mean, you've seen already six million images of idealized women by the time you're 18. Think about that. So how do you build confidence in what you look like?... go to a locker room where women are undressing and look at their real bodies, and notice the variety. Notice, you know, the, the, whatever, a woman that's larger than the standard, thinner than the standard. Women come in all shapes and sizes, so do men. And just seeing the reality-

    16. SBSteven Bartlett37:14

        Yeah.

    17. JGJulie Gottman37:14

        ... the reality as opposed to the photoshopped. You know, that's the thing that is so difficult about technology is that these days, you know, especially with dating apps and so on, people are photoshopping their images or they're taking an image of themselves 30 years ago and-

    18. SBSteven Bartlett37:33

        Mm-hmm.

    19. JGJulie Gottman37:33

        ... "There, here is what I am. And I actually still have hair." It's the reality that it's not really about the appearance. It's not even about, you know, the IQ or whatever, or the education. It's really about the ... well, here we go. It's, it's about the heart.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett37:53

        Mm-hmm.

    21. JGJulie Gottman37:53

        It's about the heart. Is this a kind person? Is this a caring person? Is this a person who exhibits compassion, who treats people equally and so on?

14. 38:04 – 39:37

    Differences Between Gender In Attraction

    1. JGJulie Gottman38:04

    2. SBSteven Bartlett38:04

       Mm-hmm. A dating app wouldn't work on that basis, would it?

    3. JGJulie Gottman38:07

       No. And most people are lying on (laughs) dating apps too.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett38:10

       Yeah.

    5. JGJulie Gottman38:12

       That's right.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett38:13

       Is there a difference in what men and women look for in a partner as it relates to attraction when they first meet?

    7. JGJohn Gottman38:21

       Well, you know, that's an interesting question because, uh, I remember reading this paper by Eli Finkel. He says in the introduction, you know, generally, uh, the dating research suggests that men are looking for physical beauty and, and women are looking for occupational competence and wealth. Uh, but actually when he did this really elaborate speed dating study, none of that actually manifested in people's preferences. Uh, the preferences were all in terms of what it felt like to be together-

    8. SBSteven Bartlett38:57

       (laughs)

    9. JGJohn Gottman38:57

       ... and both men and women were really similar. So when you interact with somebody for ... you're gonna interact with them for five minutes in this speed dating, uh, situation, what made the difference was how much fun it was to interact with them for five minutes, how enjoyable it was.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett39:13

        Mm-hmm.

    11. JGJohn Gottman39:13

        And men and women were the same. So the, the con- the social context of dating is so important, um, because if it's this very tense kind of, you know, evaluative context, nothing is gonna work. But if it's this relaxed, sort of interested, curious context, almost everything's gonna work.

15. 39:37 – 44:29

    Why People Need Alcohol When Dating

    1. JGJohn Gottman39:37

    2. SBSteven Bartlett39:37

       Now, a lot of dating happens these days with alcohol in a nightclub or with alcohol at maybe dinner or at a bar. Is there a better place to conduct a first date? And if so, why?

    3. JGJulie Gottman39:49

       Well, first of all, alcohol distorts everything. Drugs distort everything. You know, there's a reason they say intoxicated. Toxic, alcohol is toxic. So it shuts down certain parts of the brain, s- shuts down, to some degree, uh, your ability to judge, your ability to sense, your reflexes, your intuition. Um, all that stuff is shut down to some degree. And so, "Wow, she's really hot, I'm gonna go for her," you know, you're not picking up that, you know, she's wearing a wedding ring, she's sitting with a man who has a matching wedding ... you know, you're not picking up all that stuff. So probably a coffee shop is nice, where we met.

    4. JGJohn Gottman40:39

       Yeah.

    5. JGJulie Gottman40:40

       What do you think?

    6. JGJohn Gottman40:40

       Well, I think it needs to be a context that is not evaluative. Um, you know, I think it has to be some kind of relaxed context where you're just kind of getting to know one another-

    7. JGJulie Gottman40:51

       Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

    8. JGJohn Gottman40:53

       ... uh, you know, and seeing what it's like to meet this person. So it's the judgment that makes it tense-

    9. JGJulie Gottman40:59

       Mm-hmm.

    10. JGJohn Gottman41:00

        ... and uncomfortable, and so people need alcohol to get relaxed. And, of course, then they're, you know, or they get high and they're laughing at everything and nothing, and there's no con- there's no connection, there's no real connection. Um, so the evaluative context is the, is kind of like, um, the ant- the antidote to love.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett41:25

        Hm.

    12. JGJohn Gottman41:25

        You have an evaluative context, you know, you're trying to be your, at your best, the other person's trying to be at their best. But, you know, there's no real interest in one another.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett41:34

        When you say evaluative context, it means that we're evaluating each other. It's really, really overt and clear that we're-

    14. JGJohn Gottman41:39

        That's right. It's judgment.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett41:39

        It's like an interview basically.

    16. JGJohn Gottman41:41

        Yeah, it's like, it's like a job interview.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett41:44

        Interesting.

    18. JGJohn Gottman41:44

        Never gonna work. Mm-hmm.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett41:47

        Is there a certain age where if you get together with someone you're more likely to be successful? I was talking to my friend about this actually this weekend 'cause he is, um, approaching 40 and his partner is significantly younger. Um, it's my friend that lives in, uh, America, in New York. And he was telling me that because she's sort of 23, he's struggling a little bit because he wants to settle down and he wants to think about kids now, and she's still trying to figure out life.

    20. JGJulie Gottman42:14

        Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett42:14

        So it made me wonder if maybe he should be aiming at people that are at least that, that sort of 30 age where you start-

    22. JGJohn Gottman42:18

        Right.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett42:19

        ... you know? And, and I don't know if there's any research to ...

    24. JGJulie Gottman42:22

        It's true. You know, I, I don't know about the research, but what I've seen clinically is that people who date, uh, others that are very, very different in age from them have a problem typically because first of all they're, um, the social history in which they were raised is different, right? So for example, John and I, uh, though we're not the same age, we're about nine years apart, but we both went through Vietnam, we both went through all the assassinations in the US-

    25. JGJohn Gottman42:55

        Civil Rights Movement.

    26. JGJulie Gottman42:56

        ... the Civil Rights Movement. You know, I got arrested, he didn't. I was unlucky, you know, in the protesting stuff, but, but...... that context, you know, understanding, uh, a period of history that you grew up in is really important, and also internally in the sense that there are really phases of development that you go through as you get older. And you're absolutely right, Stephen, in that a 40-year-old who wants to now settle down, create a home, create a family, and a 23-year-old are incredibly different developmentally. So their goals will be different. Their values will be different, if you will. Uh, their maturity will be different. Um, their interests also may be strikingly different. There may be a real difference in valuing commitment, you know, and so on. Uh, so I've seen relationships work with that kind of disparate-

    27. SBSteven Bartlett43:59

        Uh-huh.

    28. JGJulie Gottman44:00

        ... age, but typically, um, that can happen more easily when you're older, when you've already created your identity, you've already identified what, what profession or line of work you wanna do, uh, whether or not you wanna have kids or if you've already had kids-

    29. SBSteven Bartlett44:18

        Mm-hmm.

    30. JGJulie Gottman44:18

        ... and so on. So like a 40-year-old and a 50-year-old-
16. 44:29 – 48:06

    Is 'Good Enough', Enough To Be With Someone?

    1. JGJulie Gottman44:29

    2. SBSteven Bartlett44:29

       Um, good enough relationships.

    3. JGJohn Gottman44:32

       Perfect.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett44:33

       Should I be looking for ... 'Cause this goes back to what I was saying earlier about, you know, looking for the one, looking for your Julie, or should I be looking for a relationship that is good enough, um, and then try and build it to be a great relationship? Because there's a lot of people that are maybe over 30 years old, over 40 years old-

    5. JGJohn Gottman44:51

       Right.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett44:51

       ... who are single, um, struggling to find someone that's great, and so they ... their friends or their partners or, you know, their people around them are saying, "Just, you know, that person's good enough. That person's good enough. Just, you know-"

    7. JGJohn Gottman45:05

       Mm-hmm.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett45:05

       "... give them a chance and go on the date," and ...

    9. JGJohn Gottman45:07

       Yeah, I think, I think there's a lot to that point of view, uh, because when, you know, when you're looking for the perfect relationship that's good in every dimension, uh-

    10. SBSteven Bartlett45:21

        Hm.

    11. JGJohn Gottman45:21

        ... you're gonna be disappointed, and, uh, I think, I think it makes some sense to look for what's good enough, and so, you know, what's good enough for one person is not the same as what's good enough for another person. I know, you know, what's good enough for me is having somebody you can really trust and really feel a sense of commitment toward, and those two dimensions are absolutely critical.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett45:48

        Is that wh- ... Wh- did you have non-negotiables, both of you, i.e., were there ... Was, was there anything on your list of things that were mandatory in finding your partner?

    13. JGJohn Gottman45:59

        Yeah, for me, it was wanting children.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett46:01

        So that's a non-negotiable for you.

    15. JGJohn Gottman46:03

        Yes.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett46:04

        Was there anything else that was non-negotiable?

    17. JGJohn Gottman46:08

        Uh, monogamy.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett46:09

        Okay, yeah.

    19. JGJohn Gottman46:10

        For me.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett46:11

        Yeah.

    21. JGJulie Gottman46:13

        Sense of humor-

    22. SBSteven Bartlett46:15

        Yeah.

    23. JGJulie Gottman46:15

        ... was really important. I think another thing, too, is do you get bored talking to them-

    24. SBSteven Bartlett46:23

        Mm-hmm.

    25. JGJulie Gottman46:23

        ... or not? Or are they continually interesting to you?

    26. SBSteven Bartlett46:28

        Mm-hmm.

    27. JGJulie Gottman46:29

        Um, but I think one of the most important things is how do they make you feel about yourself, not just, you know, you're attracted to them or whatever, but how do they make you feel about yourself?

    28. SBSteven Bartlett46:43

        Hmm.

    29. JGJulie Gottman46:44

        If they make you feel, uh, dumb, or unkind, or too needy, or whatever, not cool. On the other hand, if they make you feel like the most gorgeous thing in the world, and the most brilliant person in the world, et cetera, and you know you're not, that's not it either. (laughs)

    30. SBSteven Bartlett47:08

        Mm-hmm.
17. 48:06 – 53:40

    The Role Of Sex In Attraction

    1. SBSteven Bartlett48:06

       What about sex and the role that plays in attraction? I ask this question-

    2. JGJulie Gottman48:10

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett48:10

       ... because I had a relationship when I used to live in New York, and I really, really liked this person. We got on, all the things you described, the road trips, everything was fun, and then when it came to the point where we had sexual intimacy, it just wasn't there.

    4. JGJohn Gottman48:26

       Yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett48:27

       And it was, it was crushing for me because-

    6. JGJohn Gottman48:29

       Hmm.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett48:30

       ... this person was perfect in every conceivable way, smart, kind, fun, everything. I just ... And then the minute we moved to the, the next stage, it just wasn't there. I just wasn't sexually attracted to them.

    8. JGJohn Gottman48:43

       I've had that experience too. Yeah.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett48:44

       And so it made me add to my list of non-negotiables a third thing. At the time, there was two things on that list. The first was they kinda helped me become a better version of myself in however I wanna define that. The second was this intellectual stimulation, the ability to conversate and be interested in them-

    10. JGJulie Gottman48:58

        Mm-hmm.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett48:58

        ... and them interested in me.

    12. JGJulie Gottman48:59

        Right.

    13. JGJohn Gottman48:59

        Mm-hmm.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett48:59

        And the third became not about appearance at all. It was purely a sexual connection.

    15. JGJohn Gottman49:05

        I see.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett49:05

        Because-

    17. JGJohn Gottman49:06

        Yeah.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett49:07

        And so-... I just wonder wha- the role that sexual intimacy and sexual attraction plays in having a, a good relationship with someone.

    19. JGJulie Gottman49:14

        Yeah. You know, I think that really varies, Stephen-

    20. SBSteven Bartlett49:17

        Mm-hmm.

    21. JGJulie Gottman49:17

        ... because, um, there's a huge range of the importance sexuality plays in individuals.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett49:26

        Mm-hmm.

    23. JGJulie Gottman49:26

        You know, some people are practically asexual.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett49:29

        Mm-hmm.

    25. JGJulie Gottman49:30

        Other people, you know, it's been a really long time if they hadn't had sex in four hours.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett49:35

        Mm-hmm.

    27. JGJulie Gottman49:35

        So... And everything in between. So, I think to some degree that's an individual choice-

    28. SBSteven Bartlett49:44

        Mm-hmm.

    29. JGJulie Gottman49:45

        ... as to how important is sexuality to you, and having a wonderful sexual connection, as opposed to, "Eh, who cares?" You know, "I just wanna have a cup of coffee and a pastry."

    30. SBSteven Bartlett49:58

        Mm-hmm.
18. 53:40 – 57:46

    How To Spice Things Up

    1. JGJohn Gottman53:40

       Right.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett53:40

       And it's funny, 'cause from doing this podcast and speaking to a lot of sort of sex the- therapists or couples therapists, this... One of them said something to me one day, or maybe two of them said the same point, I think two or three of them said the same point, which is much of what makes sex so, you know, arousing is the spontaneity and the novelness, the newness of it, the excitement of it, all these kinds of things. And they said to me that love is, in many respects, the opposite of that. It's the opposite of spontaneity, and... Love is like security and trust and dependability, and it's, you know, knowing someone. So, I, I've spoken to a few of my friends, in fact, about this balancing act between like, "I really love this person. I know them, and I'm there for them, and we, we know everything about each other," and then, like, having to fight to also create this excitement. Like, "How do I, how do I love you like we've known each other for 10 years, and you can trust me and depend on me? But then how do I have sex with you like, (laughs) like we've just met?" (laughs) It's this-

    3. JGJohn Gottman54:46

       So we call it the Coolidge effect. Have, have you heard of this? Uh, Calvin Coolidge, uh, was President of the United States, and he and his wife were visiting, visiting a farm. And, uh, and as the President, uh, was led past these, uh, chickens and roosters, the farmer said, "Oh, uh, this rooster has sex 17 times a day, and Mrs. Coolidge wanted me to point that out to you, Mr. President."... when she came by here, 'cause we pointed out that rooster has sex 17 times a day, and Calvin Coolidge said, "With the same hen?" And the farmer said, "No, always a different hen." He said... And the president said, "Tell that to Mrs. Coolidge."

    4. JGJulie Gottman55:34

       (laughs)

    5. SBSteven Bartlett55:35

       Mm-hmm.

    6. JGJohn Gottman55:35

       So the Coolidge Effect is that it has to be novel, it has to be exciting to be erotic, right?

    7. SBSteven Bartlett55:42

       Mm-hmm.

    8. JGJohn Gottman55:42

       And familiarity, you know, which creates security and relaxation and openness is antithetical to the novelty that creates sexual excitement. But the truth is actually not so simple-

    9. SBSteven Bartlett55:57

       (laughs) .

    10. JGJohn Gottman55:57

        ... uh, because eroticism often really results from really creating an erotic situation together and making it-

    11. SBSteven Bartlett56:09

        Mm-hmm.

    12. JGJohn Gottman56:09

        ... an erotic situation. And for women especially, feeling safe and feeling emotionally connected is a prerequisite for feeling really attracted-

    13. SBSteven Bartlett56:20

        Mm-hmm.

    14. JGJohn Gottman56:20

        ... and feeling that this is an erotic situation. That emotional connection is necessary for many women. Because women have such a s- strange relationship to safety and fear compared to men. The world is so much more a dangerous place for women than it is for men.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett56:38

        Mm-hmm.

    16. JGJohn Gottman56:39

        Women really need that emotional safety and connection in order to feel that the situation is erotic at all. It's important for your, your audience to realize that the largest study done on the quality of sex with 70,000 people in 24 countries found that the differences between people who say they have a great sex life and people who say they have an awful sex life has to do with affection and emotional connection, that people who have a great sex life say, "I love you," every day and mean it, kiss each other passionately for no reason at all, cuddle, they're affectionate even in public, they have romantic dates. So affection and emotional connection, for most people all over the planet, are connected rather than there being this dichotomy between if you're close and if your friendship is good, sex is gonna be terrible, and if you're distant and, you know, uh, it's novel, sex is gonna be great. It's just not true.

    17. JGJulie Gottman57:45

        That's right.

19. 57:46 – 1:03:21

    How Much Sex Should We Be Having?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett57:46

       And is there a certain amount of... 'Cause a lot of couples fall into this trap of sort of fake comparison, whether it's social media or movies-

    2. JGJohn Gottman57:53

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett57:53

       ... where we think, "Okay, if we're not having sex three times a week, something's wrong, I need to raise it, we need to argue about it, we need to fix it," is there any merit-

    4. JGJohn Gottman58:02

       Hmm.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett58:02

       ... to the quantity resulting in, you know, happiness?

    6. JGJohn Gottman58:07

       No. No relationship between quantity and happiness.

    7. JGJulie Gottman58:11

       Mm-mm. Mm-mm. Um-

    8. JGJohn Gottman58:12

       Quality, yes.

    9. JGJulie Gottman58:13

       Well, (clears throat) with the caveat, (laughs) with the caveat that if you have two people paired together, one who is extremely sexual-

    10. SBSteven Bartlett58:26

        Mm-hmm.

    11. JGJulie Gottman58:26

        ... and, you know, really does need sex frequently and the other one, uh, the opposite-

    12. JGJohn Gottman58:33

        Asexual.

    13. JGJulie Gottman58:34

        ... who is more asexual-

    14. JGJohn Gottman58:35

        (clears throat) .

    15. JGJulie Gottman58:36

        ... and, you know, could take it or leave it, wants sex maybe once a month-

    16. JGJohn Gottman58:40

        That's not gonna work.

    17. JGJulie Gottman58:41

        ... that's not gonna work.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett58:42

        Mm-hmm. One of the things me and my friends have been deliberating about is the importance of what we call desire management, which is-

    19. JGJohn Gottman58:52

        Yeah.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett58:52

        ... if someone is, like-

    21. JGJohn Gottman58:53

        That's-

    22. SBSteven Bartlett58:53

        ... ar- around too much and they're there every second of every day-

    23. JGJohn Gottman58:57

        Mm-hmm.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett58:57

        ... in the house, when I get home, you know, everywhere, does that not, to some degree, start to kill the desire a little bit? One of the best things that I, I think I've found in my relationship is that my partner's always working away, then I'm working away, and so when we see each other, it feels special and interesting. But I personally don't know that if we were both in the house seven days a week and I worked from home with her, whether the desire would be the same. I don't know.

    25. JGJulie Gottman59:25

        You know, I, I think that e- e-... For example, Jon and I are around each other seven days a week and we have been for, you know, most of our marriage, but it doesn't matter. Um-

    26. SBSteven Bartlett59:36

        Is that because of my attachment style maybe? Because (laughs) -

    27. JGJohn Gottman59:39

        (laughs) .

    28. SBSteven Bartlett59:39

        ...'cause, you know, I wonder if that-

    29. JGJohn Gottman59:41

        Could be.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett59:42

        Yeah.
20. 1:03:21 – 1:09:36

    Men Struggle To Talk About Their Feelings

    1. JGJulie Gottman1:03:21

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:21

       Julie, is it, is it more often men or women that are saying that I feel?

    3. JGJulie Gottman1:03:26

       Are you kidding? Men are catching up, but it's hard. It's hard for men to do that. Women, I mean, you go to mental health expertise and all the characteristics of, uh, a man that are considered mentally healthy, autonomy, independence-

    4. JGJohn Gottman1:03:49

       Strength.

    5. JGJulie Gottman1:03:49

       ... uh, strength.

    6. JGJohn Gottman1:03:50

       Resilience.

    7. JGJulie Gottman1:03:51

       Resilience, you know, all the stuff that's autonomous. For women, vulnerability, sensitivity-

    8. JGJohn Gottman1:04:00

       Empathy.

    9. JGJulie Gottman1:04:00

       ... ex- empathy, expressing emotion. So, you know, there's only one emotion that men are allowed to really openly express, anger, right?

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:11

        Mm-hmm.

    11. JGJulie Gottman1:04:12

        Can they express fear? "Oh my God, I'm so scared of going in there tomorrow." Or sadness or, you know, the more vulnerable emotions? It's... (laughs) God, think about it. It's seen as effeminate.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:30

        Mm-hmm.

    13. JGJulie Gottman1:04:30

        And that's supposed to be bad? Why is that bad? Because women are second-class citizens, right? So to be l- allegedly like a woman and express vulnerable emotions is a bad thing because you shouldn't be like a woman. Why not?

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:53

        (laughs)

    15. JGJulie Gottman1:04:54

        (laughs) What's, you know... I mean, so expressing vulnerable emotions, I think men are starting to catch up, you know?

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:01

        Don't women like strength?

    17. JGJulie Gottman1:05:04

        Yes and no. They like strength, but the problem is, is that they also wanna be empathetic, too. They want to be, you know, nourishing to their partner, and if their partner is always presenting this facade of strength, they can't get close to them.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:25

        It's like the opposite of connection.

    19. JGJulie Gottman1:05:27

        Yeah.

    20. JGJohn Gottman1:05:28

        But, you know, we, we observed eight-year-olds in playgrounds, uh, and if you, if you look at eight-year-old boys, they'll do run or chase games over a very large distance. And if an emotional event happens, if somebody gets upset, you know, say, "What's the matter, Brian?" says the leader of the group. He says, "I never get the ball." "Okay, toss the ball to Brian."

    21. JGJulie Gottman1:05:52

        (laughs)

    22. JGJohn Gottman1:05:52

        Brian gets the ball and they're off and running. They keep the game in play, manage conflict quickly. Look at two, look at girls. They're playing in groups of two or three close to the school building, and they're talking about their feelings over and over again. "You know, you said that I was a baby-"

    23. JGJulie Gottman1:06:13

        (laughs)

    24. JGJohn Gottman1:06:13

        "... you know, because I had those barrettes. That really hurt my feelings." "Yeah, well, I, you know, I, I only wore barrettes when, when I was little and now I don't wear 'em."

    25. JGJulie Gottman1:06:22

        (laughs)

    26. JGJohn Gottman1:06:22

        "You know, but that hurt my feelings when you said that." "So I, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings." They're talking about emotions constantly, and it's like the hopscotch or whatever game they're playing is just an excuse for talking about emotions. For the boys, the most important thing is keeping the ball in play, and conflict gets in the way of that. They resolve it quickly. They're socialized so differently.

    27. JGJulie Gottman1:06:47

        Mm-hmm.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:48

        Is, is this part of the reason why it feels for many men that they are being held off all the time? Because then actually what's happening is their, their wife is just expressing their emotions and the man never really expresses it. You know that old sort of slightly problematic phrase which is, "Happy wife, happy life"?

    29. JGJohn Gottman1:07:03

        Mm-hmm. That's right. Mm-hmm.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:04

        The reason why that phrase exists, I would assume, is because the man thinks, "As long as I can keep her from expressing more problems to me, then I'm happy."
21. 1:09:36 – 1:15:55

    Expressing Gratitude To Your Partner

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:36

       happen.

    2. JGJulie Gottman1:09:37

       Two women said to me last night that I was speaking to, um, on, uh, WhatsApp, um, p- people that I work with in a different company, they were saying to me that their partners often express how they're feeling by just sending songs out of the blue.

    3. JGJohn Gottman1:09:50

       Sending songs?

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:51

       Sending songs out of the blue.

    5. JGJulie Gottman1:09:52

       Well, that's interesting.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:53

       And I'd never heard of it, and it... 'Cause one of them said it, and, and the other woman said, "Oh my God, my partner does that too," which is-

    7. JGJulie Gottman1:09:58

       Wow.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:58

       ... instead of, like, telling me how he feels, he'll send me a song which des- which is basically a way-

    9. JGJulie Gottman1:10:04

       Describes it.

    10. JGJohn Gottman1:10:04

        How he feels. Yeah.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:05

        Um, and some of those songs are very romantic and it's like, "I love you, you're the best person I've ever found." But instead of... But he, they can't, he can't vocalize it to her.

    12. JGJulie Gottman1:10:11

        Oh.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:12

        So he has to send her a Spotify link and say, "Listen. This is this." (laughs)

    14. JGJulie Gottman1:10:15

        Wow. (laughs)

    15. JGJohn Gottman1:10:16

        Oh. Aw.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:17

        But it's the same thing, right? It's the-

    17. JGJulie Gottman1:10:18

        That's right.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:19

        ... inability to, to vocalize which is, hmm-

    19. JGJulie Gottman1:10:22

        Yep.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:23

        ... difficult for men.

    21. JGJulie Gottman1:10:24

        Keep working on it.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:26

        I am, yeah. I'm, like, progressively getting better, but sometimes I have little relapses. If you, if I... I'm very busy in my mind and then I have to have one of those "we need to talk" chats, so I think you're right, there needs to be a bit of a ritual around, like, "Is this a good time?" (laughs)

    23. JGJulie Gottman1:10:41

        (laughs) That's right.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:42

        Yeah. "Will I have your attention?" Or, you know, even being in a different environment, like you said.

    25. JGJulie Gottman1:10:46

        Well, you can make, you know, make a date to have a talk like that. When we are giving couples workshops, at the very end of it we always, uh, give recommendations for ways of preserving the changes you're making in the relationship, the improvements, and one of them is called the State of the Union meeting, right? Where you start with five appreciations of each other, you know, things you haven't said before that you've noticed that your partner is doing right, and express your gratitude or thanks or your admiration. Then you go into, (laughs) "Okay, so what do we need to change? What do we need to improve?"

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:29

        Right.

    27. JGJulie Gottman1:11:29

        And then you finish up with this beautiful question, I just love this question, "How can I make you feel loved this week?"

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:39

        Mm-hmm.

    29. JGJulie Gottman1:11:40

        And that's closure.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:42

        Hmm. You mentioned the word there, gratitude.
22. 1:15:55 – 1:19:24

    How To Know If You Should Break Up

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:55

       When do you know, how do you know when to quit a relationship? How do I know if the relationship I'm in is bad, is not good? Because relationships are incredibly tempting. They tempt us back, they offer comfort which sometimes necessarily isn't healthy comfort, but they're very hard to leave. And I actually had a conversation with one of my friends recently. I always talk about my friends because it's the only way I know to draw on case studies.

    2. JGJulie Gottman1:16:18

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:19

       So instead of me just hypothetical, he- coming with something hypothetical, I think about the, the challenges my friends face and got a particular friend who's been in a relationship for many, many years, seven, eight years. Um, relationship is broken, broken down.

    4. JGJulie Gottman1:16:31

       Mm-hmm.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:31

       And he naturally, because the relationship is broken down, is like jumping to repair. But I wonder if he should even repair, because they've broken up six times. They've gone through this cycle six times. So I'm like, "Are they just rushing back together for the comfort of the relationship?"

    6. JGJulie Gottman1:16:51

       Mm-hmm.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:52

       Or, um, should they, you know, take a moment to say, "Is this even right?" But there's also, the answer here applies to people that are in relationships that have those thoughts in their mind, "Is this the right one?" How do you know? How do you know if this is a problem we can solve and should solve or this is just the wrong person?

    8. JGJulie Gottman1:17:11

       Therapy helps.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:13

       Mm-hmm.

    10. JGJulie Gottman1:17:13

        Has your friend gone to therapy?

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:15

        N- not-

    12. JGJulie Gottman1:17:15

        Good therapy?

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:17

        Not with their partner, no.

    14. JGJulie Gottman1:17:18

        Uh-uh. Then they don't know.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:20

        Mm-hmm.

    16. JGJulie Gottman1:17:20

        You know, in other words, a lot of people, um, don't know how to deal with conflict, for example. Nobody's taking Relationships 101 in high school, right?

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:32

        Mm-hmm.

    18. JGJulie Gottman1:17:32

        To learn how to deal with conflict or to learn how to be more vulnerable to somebody else and be more open and so on. So people don't know how to have good relationships. That's part of what drives the work that John and I do. People just don't know how to do it. And if they did know, they could change those patterns. And so, you know, with your friend, for example, oftentimes, you know, when people have been together for over, you know, a couple of years, they create patterns that are like dark holes. You know, they're like black holes that have this tremendous gravitational pull. And so they keep sinking down into the same patterns over and over and over and over again, right? That's...

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:21

        Well, this is exactly what happens-

    20. JGJulie Gottman1:18:22

        That's your problem.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:23

        Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    22. JGJulie Gottman1:18:24

        But you can change those patterns once you know and practice what the alternatives are.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:34

        Oh, okay.

    24. JGJohn Gottman1:18:34

        But I think it's, I think it's-

    25. JGJulie Gottman1:18:36

        Not the partner.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:37

        Yeah, yeah.

    27. JGJulie Gottman1:18:37

        The pattern.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:38

        An alternative pattern.

    29. JGJulie Gottman1:18:39

        Yes.

    30. JGJohn Gottman1:18:40

        I think when that fondness and admiration system, you know, the system of affection and respect, love a- and respect is gone and gets replaced by denigration, belittling, contempt.
23. 1:19:24 – 1:25:02

    The 4 Horsemen Of The Apocalypse In A Relationship

    1. JGJulie Gottman1:19:24

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:24

       What are the Four Horsemen then before we talk about how we would go about changing, if possible, these things?

    3. JGJulie Gottman1:19:29

       Oh.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:29

       For anyone that doesn't know and how you found these Four Horsemen.

    5. JGJohn Gottman1:19:33

       Uh, well, Bob Levenson and I, when we, in doing our research, we first, the first thing we looked at w- was what's the ratio of positive to negative emotion in a conversation?

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:44

       So how did you conduct this experiment?

    7. JGJohn Gottman1:19:46

       ... really just observing couples talking about how their day went.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:50

       How do you know-

    9. JGJohn Gottman1:19:51

       At the end of the day.

    10. JGJulie Gottman1:19:51

        Well, wait, wait, wait.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:52

        Yeah.

    12. JGJulie Gottman1:19:52

        Bring them into the lab-

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:54

        A lab?

    14. JGJulie Gottman1:19:54

        ... first of all.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:55

        What's the lab?

    16. JGJulie Gottman1:19:56

        Uh, the lab was a room where they sat facing one another. There were video cameras here and there that were focused on-

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:09

        Faces.

    18. JGJulie Gottman1:20:09

        ... each individual and their faces and their body language. Um, there was what was called a gigalometer, how much they moved in their chairs, you know, how much the chairs moved. Physiological measures, what was happening to their heart rate, you know, as well as-

    19. JGJohn Gottman1:20:24

        Heart velocity, respiration.

    20. JGJulie Gottman1:20:26

        Respiration.

    21. JGJohn Gottman1:20:27

        And conductance.

    22. JGJulie Gottman1:20:28

        Right. And all of that, all of that data that was pulled from those measures was all synchronized, you know, hundredth of a second by hundredth of a second. And they would talk for, let's say, 15 minutes about the events of the day, and then they were asked to talk about a problem they hadn't solved and to try and solve it or talk about it. So that, you know, ends up being conflict. And-

    23. JGJohn Gottman1:20:55

        Then a positive topic.

    24. JGJulie Gottman1:20:57

        And then a positive topic.

    25. JGJohn Gottman1:20:59

        Or in, in the apartment lab, they just hung out for, you know, 12 hours before they went to sleep, and the cameras just rolled while we collected physiological data. So that ratio-

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:10

        So you really spied on them?

    27. JGJohn Gottman1:21:11

        Huh?

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:11

        You really spied.

    29. JGJohn Gottman1:21:12

        We, we spied on them, right.

    30. JGJulie Gottman1:21:13

        Except they knew they were being spied on.
24. 1:25:02 – 1:32:19

    Insecure People Are More Defensive

    1. JGJulie Gottman1:25:02

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:02

       Do you find that insecure people are more defensive?

    3. JGJulie Gottman1:25:05

       Sure.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:06

       I have this, like, theory that if your self-esteem and your self-perception of yourself is fragile, then anyone poking at it at all causes such extreme pain-

    5. JGJohn Gottman1:25:15

       Right.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:15

       ... that you, like, you live in a, uh, this state of, like, "I have never done anything wrong. I can't possibly do anything wrong." And if someone points out something you've done wrong-

    7. JGJohn Gottman1:25:21

       Right.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:22

       ... it's so painful if you're insecure-

    9. JGJohn Gottman1:25:25

       Right, walking on eggshells.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:26

        ... it's like tickling a, yeah, exact- it's like, um, playing with, like, an open wound.

    11. JGJohn Gottman1:25:29

        Yeah.

    12. JGJulie Gottman1:25:30

        It's like you're a walking burn victim.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:32

        Yeah (laughs) .

    14. JGJulie Gottman1:25:32

        You know, the way I like to describe it, um, because I've been there (laughs) -

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:37

        Mm-hmm.

    16. JGJulie Gottman1:25:37

        ... I know what that's like, is, you know, the, the Earth, if you take, uh, a picture of the Earth, and the Earth has this very thin crust on it.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:48

        Right.

    18. JGJulie Gottman1:25:48

        And then you go down some layers, and in the center is this boiling hot lava, you know, uh, that burns you to death. Well, somebody says to you, "Why didn't you pay the bills on time?"... and the earth opens up, you fall through that crack and straight down into that hot lava of self-loathing that is agony. Absolute- And you feel like you're getting burned to death. So, you can't allow yourself to step into that crack and say, "Oh, God, you're right. I didn't."

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:25

        Mm. So you defend?

    20. JGJulie Gottman1:26:28

        You defend. "Oh, yeah? Well, I'm the one who does all the bill-paying. What are you doing?" You know, it's-

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:34

        Mm.

    22. JGJulie Gottman1:26:34

        ... defensiveness.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:35

        Well, in that case, it sounds like that's fundamentally linked to some kind of trauma. Because paying the, you didn't pay the bills to, the average person would be, "Yeah, no, no, sorry, my bad."

    24. JGJulie Gottman1:26:43

        Yeah.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:43

        But if that's linked to maybe, I don't know, your childhood where your, your father or your mother or the bullies on the playground told you that, "You always, you're so forgetful, Steve or Julie."

    26. JGJulie Gottman1:26:52

        Mm-hmm.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:52

        "You're the most forgetful person ever." And then they punched you. (laughs)

    28. JGJulie Gottman1:26:56

        (laughs)

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:56

        You could get to, you know, 40-

    30. JGJulie Gottman1:26:57

        Can be.
25. 1:32:19 – 1:33:45

    Do Homosexuals Relationships Last Longer?

    1. JGJulie Gottman1:32:19

Episode duration: 2:16:26