John and Julie Gottman: What 70,000-person sex study found

Julie Gottman 0:00 When the sex falls away, it can become a serious problem.

John Gottman 0:03 And the largest study done on the quality of sex with 70,000 people in 24 countries found the differences between people who say they have a great sex life and an awful sex life has to do with it.

Steven Bartlett 0:14 Really?

Julie Gottman 0:15 Yeah, that's right. (instrumental music plays)

Narrator 0:16 Drs. John and Julie Gottman are world-renowned psychologists...

Steven Bartlett 0:19 And researchers who have studied over 40,000 couples...

John Gottman 0:22 Written over 50 books...

Narrator 0:23 And helped millions of people find and stay in love for over 50 years.

Julie Gottman 0:28 People don't know how to have good relationships.

Steven Bartlett 0:30 So, I've got so many questions. I'll start from the top. What are we getting wrong?

Julie Gottman 0:34 Well, first of all, most people are living under the myth that you have to be compatible with a partner, which is absolutely wrong.

John Gottman 0:42 And this is really interesting. There's a T-shirt study where women smelled T-shirts that had been worn by men for at least two days and selected the ones they thought smelled the best, and they found they were selecting the men that were as most divergent from them genetically rather than people who were like them. 'Cause we're not really turned on by our clone.

Julie Gottman 1:00 And there isn't a one. Looking for the one is a big mistake.

Steven Bartlett 1:04 What about, how do I become the most attractive version of me if I'm looking for a partner?

John Gottman 1:08 That's a great question.

Julie Gottman 1:09 And this is what you do. (instrumental music plays)

Steven Bartlett 1:11 This is a difficult question to ask, but have you ever seen cheating help a relationship?

Julie Gottman 1:16 Oh, very, very often.

Steven Bartlett 1:18 Really?

Julie Gottman 1:18 When there's recovery.

Steven Bartlett 1:19 But can it be treated?

Julie Gottman 1:21 75% so far in our research.

Steven Bartlett 1:24 Wow.

Julie Gottman 1:25 We developed a model, and here's what it involves. First... (music stops)

Steven Bartlett 1:32 This is a sentence I never thought I'd say in my life. Um, we've just hit seven million subscribers on YouTube, and I wanna say a huge thank you to all of you that show up here every Monday and Thursday to watch our conversations, um, from the bottom of my heart but also on behalf of my team, who you don't always get to meet. There's almost 50 people now behind the Diary of a CEO that worked to put this together, so from all of us, thank you so much. Um, we did a raffle last month, and we gave away prizes for people that subscribed to the show up until seven million subscribers, and you guys loved that raffle so much that we're gonna continue it. So every single month, we're giving away money can't buy prizes, including meetings with me, invites to our events, and £1,000 gift vouchers to anyone that subscribes to the Diary of a CEO. There's now more than seven million of you, so if you make the decision to subscribe today, you can be one of those lucky people. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. Let's get to the conversation. (instrumental music plays) John, Julie,

Steven Bartlett 2:28 why do you both do what you do?

Julie Gottman 2:31 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 2:32 (laughs)

Julie Gottman 2:33 I love that question. One has to define what we do, and there are many things that we do. First of all, I love to write. That's great. I've been helping people since I was eight years old, for some odd reason. Uh, and I love, love, love connecting with people and loving them through their pain.

Steven Bartlett 2:55 Hmm.

Julie Gottman 2:56 That's why I do what I do.

Steven Bartlett 2:57 And would you class yourself as a clinical psychologist? Is that your official title?

Julie Gottman 3:01 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 3:02 Okay. John, could you answer the same question, which is, why do you do what you do, and I guess what you do?

John Gottman 3:07 Well, to me, it's really an interesting puzzle to try to understand what makes relationships work and what makes groups work, what, what makes people be cooperative versus competitive, selfish, and mean, what makes them be altruistic and empathetic, uh, what makes, what makes relationships become sources of longevity and health versus illness and loneliness and despair. So for me, it's a puzzle, and it's fun to work on a puzzle.

Julie Gottman 3:42 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 3:43 And what do you do?

John Gottman 3:45 I measure things accurately and reliably and, you know, then really just kind of see where the data fall out.

Steven Bartlett 3:54 Yeah.

John Gottman 3:54 So, um, it's really applying statistics and measurement and good math to try to understand processes that are going on between people with this really ultimate question of what, what makes relationships work and what makes groups work, what makes humans cooperative and magnificent at their best versus selfish, uh, greedy, and functioning at their worst. So, it's curiosity that drives me. That's all.

Steven Bartlett 4:28 And collectively, how many people do you think you've studied, researched, treated, worked with in your practice over the last however many decades?

John Gottman 4:40 Well, we've done research on 40,000 couples about to start couples therapy, uh, using questionnaires, and then more intensely using physiology and, and objective rating of emotional behavior, about 3,000 couples followed over time as long as 20 years.

Steven Bartlett 4:59 And how many books have you collectively written, Julie?

Julie Gottman 5:04 I think we're on 51, but I'm not sure.

Julie Gottman 5:08 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 5:08 (laughs)

Julie Gottman 5:08 I've lost count. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 5:10 I, um, uh, where I wanted to start with this conversation is, is really with, I guess, the subject of relationships but how we find and form them in the modern society, because when you look at the stats, despite the incredible work you've done over the last couple of decades, it doesn't seem that we're better at finding and keeping relationships than ever before. If you, especially if you look at non-romantic relationships, you know, loneliness and isolation are at absolute all-time highs, and the technology that was invented over the last couple of decades came with a promise, which was that it was gonna connect us, but it doesn't seem to have succeeded. So, I really wanna start by answering this question about how people find love and form those relationships in the modern world and, like, what the data says and what, what our psychology says about where we're going wrong. I had some independent research that I found, uh, that says according to the US Census Bureau, nearly 50% of the US population are currently single.... according to the 2023 survey by Pew Research, about 33% of men reported being single, followed by 28% of women. The average first marriage for men is 30 years old, for women it's about 28. Um, we're having less sex than ever before, um, we're getting in relationships later than ever before. Marriages still seem to break down, almost half of them. Um, you probably know those numbers better than me. And almost half of people are using dating apps, but I think if you speak to anybody that uses a dating app, they feel like they're all having a bad time. When we think about finding someone to love us, or that we love, how much of our effort should be about actively going out there and putting ourselves out there, buying a new dress, whatever it is, putting ourselves out there in the market, versus the internal work of building ourselves into someone that is a magnet instead of a door-to-door salesman?

Julie Gottman 7:04 (laughs) Oh, beautiful.

Steven Bartlett 7:05 You know what I mean?

Julie Gottman 7:06 Beautiful, yes. Um, I love your, uh, thought about developing ourselves internally, because that's what goes wrong that makes dating apps so terrible. Many, many people suffer from terrible insecurity, right?

Steven Bartlett 7:23 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 7:23 They feel shame, they may have been criticized a lot as a kid or in their work, and as a result, they hide out. They hide, and what they present to the world, either through dating apps, this is very common, or just even meeting people at a party, is something they're not. It's something that they believe is the ideal, but where are they getting their information? They're getting it from TV, from Hollywood, from idealized heroes and heroines that are not real. Also, they're living under the myth that you have to be compatible with a partner.

Steven Bartlett 8:04 Hmm.

Julie Gottman 8:04 Which is absolutely wrong, as we'll talk about. Um, in other words, you have to have the same interests, the same values, uh, maybe the same background, the same, uh, class you were raised in, and so on. All of that is wrong, interestingly enough. So when you talk about building that internal world, basically what you're saying is trust your own intuition, trust who you are. People will come to you if you are genuinely yourself. And if you're not, um, then people may mistake you for somebody else, have an expectation of who you are, and you're in- inevitably gonna fail that expectation, which then gives you a negative experience, uh, because you feel like this other person is rejecting you and doesn't like you. But the reality is, they're not rejecting you, they're rejecting this idealized portrait that you tried to present to them, which isn't real.

Steven Bartlett 9:12 I guess a lot of people would think when they hear that, "But Julie, if I show up as myself, no one's gonna love me."

Julie Gottman 9:20 Yeah. That's right.

Steven Bartlett 9:21 Especially on a first date.

Julie Gottman 9:22 That's right. That's right. That's, you know, that's the sadness. People don't believe, because of all that criticism in the society, that they're worthy of love. They don't believe it. They have to, you know, be, uh, I don't know what, Bruce Willis or something, in order to, uh, have somebody attracted to them, have somebody really want to get to know them.

Steven Bartlett 9:50 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 9:50 Which isn't true at all. In fact, it's the opposite.

Steven Bartlett 9:55 What do you think to that, John?

John Gottman 9:57 You know, I've been thinking a lot about this question of, you know, how do we find true love? Um, and, you know, p- part of the problem, I think, is that, um, as you mentioned, loneliness is a very serious thing. And, um, and so many people are lonely. And part of what they haven't done is t- is build a friendship network that can support them. Friends are just so important as a precondition for finding the love of your life, because, you know, the, the research that's been done on strangers now shows that people think that 97% of strangers, if they talk to them, will be rejecting, and will feel like they're invading their privacy. But the data shows that just the opposite is true, that when you approach a stranger, almost 97% of the time, they're quite delighted to be contacted, and they, and they meet an initial contact with interest, enthusiasm. And so talking to strangers turns out to be really a very important thing.

Steven Bartlett 11:11 Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 11:11 And turning a stranger into a friend, turning your social networks into places that are not alienating, that are, you know, places where you actually can enjoy human company-

Steven Bartlett 11:24 Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 11:24 ... uh, is an important pre- prerequisite to dating. So, I would say you need to build that friendship network first. And once you're not lonely, you're not desperate, and then you can find somebody much more easily.

Steven Bartlett 11:39 I think this is a really interesting point, which is y- y- you finish there by saying, "If you're not lonely, you're not desperate," and I was, I was thinking as you were talking about what the most attractive version of me is to the world. If I'm looking to find a partner, whether I'm a man or a woman, um, it doesn't sound like a desperate version of me is a very attractive version of me.

John Gottman 12:00 Right.

Steven Bartlett 12:00 So on this point of attraction, we'll start with you, John, and then we'll go... 'Cause we started with Julie last time, what do we know about what makes people attracted to each other? Like, how do I become the most attractive version of me to the world if I'm looking for a partner?

John Gottman 12:14 I think everyone is really interesting and attractive as long as, you know, they're with somebody who's curious about them. So, uh, if you're with somebody who's really snobby and, uh, you know, condescending and superior, nobody is at their best.

Steven Bartlett 12:32 Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 12:32 You know? But when you're with somebody who's really interested in you, then you can really emerge and just about everybody is really interesting. Their thoughts are unique and their background is interesting and their, their goals and their, their struggles are really fascinating. So, um, I think it's the social context that makes the difference rather than the individual. So the problem with dating apps, I think, is that they create this very artificial situation in which everyone's being evaluated-

Steven Bartlett 13:07 Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 13:07 ... and assessed, and they're swiping left, you know, all the time. "Well, that person's not quite right, not quite right, not quite right, not quite right." The research of Eli Finkel shows that there's nothing you can measure in two individuals that will predict whether they like each other.

Steven Bartlett 13:25 There's nothing you can measure?

John Gottman 13:26 Nothing you can measure. In fact, you can actually ask people exactly what they're looking for in a partner and find that exact person in a large database, and it's very unlikely that they'll like that person when they meet them.

Steven Bartlett 13:42 (laughs)

John Gottman 13:44 Yet if you randomly pair them with strangers, 22% of people like each other when they first meet.

Steven Bartlett 13:52 I wonder about the role that self-esteem plays-

John Gottman 13:56 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 13:56 ... in attraction. It's kind of what we were talking about with, like, being desperate, maybe they're-

John Gottman 13:59 That's right.

Steven Bartlett 13:59 They feel like a similar thing. And I wonder if there's any, like, data that supports this idea that self-esteem or your self-perception is this invisible force that makes you attractive or not attractive. I've actually seen it in some of my friends, who I won't name, who started going to the gym. And just because they started working on themselves, it's almost like they grew six inches. Like, they just were like different people.

John Gottman 14:23 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 14:23 So yeah, a lot of attraction we think, like, "Go get the blow dry," or, "Go get a better outfit." But th- this goes back to this point about how much of it is actually, like, do the internal work. What do you think?

John Gottman 14:35 I think there's a lot be- to be said for that.

Steven Bartlett 14:37 Yeah.

John Gottman 14:38 If you have a group of friends, you know, who really like you and you really like them, then it's easier to emerge.

Steven Bartlett 14:47 Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 14:47 And, you know, this, this dating situation is so artificial that people are so terrified, you know, when they meet somebody. And instead of approaching them with curiosity about them, they're worried that they won't make a good impression. And they're so self-conscious of themselves, rather than being curious and interested in the other person. And 'cause if they are curious and interested in the other person, you know, it doesn't matter what happens, right?

Steven Bartlett 15:17 (laughs)

John Gottman 15:17 I mean, uh, you meet somebody new and you learn about them, and it's an interesting experience, and maybe they're interested in you too. So the dating experience is just kind of fun, you know? It's about exploring-

Steven Bartlett 15:30 Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 15:31 ... two people exploring one another. And then there's no objective. There's no, there's no real goal there, and then it's much less artificial. And then when you meet somebody you really click with, that's a wonderful experience.

Steven Bartlett 15:46 Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 15:46 And especially when you meet an outlier.

Steven Bartlett 15:49 Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 15:50 Like I met Julie, I dated 60 women before I met Julie. She's number 61.

Steven Bartlett 15:55 As you like to tell it.

John Gottman 15:56 I had a database. (laughs) So I knew I met an outlier. For me, she was an outlier-

Steven Bartlett 16:02 Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 16:02 ... because I just loved interacting with her. It was just so much fun. And, uh, she was head and shoulders above any person I'd met before.

Steven Bartlett 16:13 Do you know what's interesting though? When people look at you two and when they look at other relationships, they'll go, "Okay, John, I get it. So you gotta make a database. You gotta wait till the, you find the one."

John Gottman 16:22 Right.

Steven Bartlett 16:23 And this is often the cause of much procrastination as it relates to love.

John Gottman 16:27 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 16:27 Everyone's looking for the Julie, you know? Like I'm coming, Julie.

Julie Gottman 16:29 And there isn't one. You know, that's one of the, the other myths. There isn't a one. And it's funny because we've seen this in our research on the opposite end of it, and here's what I mean. Every pairing of people, uh, no matter how wonderful they are, no matter how much you love them, the two of you will always have perpetual problems between you. And those are based on either lifestyle preference differences or personality differences, always. And at some point, those conflict. And so, you know, what we saw in our research was, you know, something like 69% of the conflicts that couples suffer from or have are perpetual problems. They never go away. So, you know, when I have somebody coming into my office that says, "I wanna find my soulmate, my soulmate." It's like, "Huh? What's a soulmate?"

Steven Bartlett 17:28 (laughs)

Julie Gottman 17:28 You know, I mean, there, you out of, out of whatever, in the US we have what, 350 million people. There's probably 500,000 of them that you would find wonderful and attractive, right? So looking for the one is a big mistake (laughs) because inevitably they snore at night-

Steven Bartlett 17:52 (laughs)

Julie Gottman 17:52 ... or, you know, they eat with their mouth open or, you know, something that drives you crazy. So, okay, so you're not looking for the perfect person. You're not the perfect person. And that's what I was referring to earlier as, you know, let's see each other as human beings. There is no perfection. We are all flawed. We all have cracks in us, and those can be seen as beautiful too. We don't have to be perfect to be loved.... right?

John Gottman 18:28 Yeah.

Julie Gottman 18:28 Right. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 18:30 It's interesting 'cause th- that marries to something that I was reading about in your books, where you talk about how we're often attracted to people who are very different from ourselves, and just the very nature that they're different from us means that there's gonna be that pretty much constant conflict. Why is it the case that we're attracted to people that are different from ourselves? Is that true, um-

John Gottman 18:48 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:48 ... because it doesn't seem to make sense on the surface. You'd think I would be attracted to someone that likes Manchester United-

John Gottman 18:53 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 18:54 ... and, you know, liked my favorite food and my favorite stuff-

John Gottman 18:56 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:56 ... because then we'll get on, like, a house on fire. But you're telling me that we're attracted to people that like other things.

John Gottman 19:01 Yeah. Uh, the research of Claus Wedekind is so interesting, uh, this T-shirt study that he did, uh, where women smell T-shirts that have been worn by men for at least two days, and selected the ones they thought smelled the best.

Steven Bartlett 19:17 Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 19:17 Uh, they actually were selecting... What Wedekind found was they were selecting T-shirts of men whose pheromones were attractive, the men were as most divergent from them genetically, just in the genes of the immune system.

Steven Bartlett 19:36 Wait.

John Gottman 19:36 Very divergent kinds of people smelled really attractive to these women, rather than people who were like them. And actually, the experiment was done, it showed they actually liked those men better than other men they might have met. So-

Steven Bartlett 19:51 So, genetically different men.

John Gottman 19:53 Genetically different-

Steven Bartlett 19:54 Okay.

John Gottman 19:54 ... in terms of the immune system. So here's this, uh, evolutionary explanation of why people are searching for somebody who's really different, 'cause we're not really turned on by our clone. We're not turned on by peop- by people who are just like us. Julie and I are vastly different.

Steven Bartlett 20:11 Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 20:12 She's, you know, this, uh, adventurer, you know, this outdoors person. She loves the trees and hiking- (laughs) ... you know, up mountain trails. I'm an indoorsman. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 20:23 (laughs)

John Gottman 20:23 I like sitting in my chair and reading books on mathematics and quantum mechanics and general relativity theory.

Julie Gottman 20:30 He's a consummate indoorsman, that's for sure.

John Gottman 20:32 So we're very different, you know, but, you know.

Julie Gottman 20:34 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 20:34 What's the evolutionary reason then, do you think, for why we like people that are different?

Julie Gottman 20:39 Oh, the genetic immunity.

Steven Bartlett 20:41 Yeah.

Julie Gottman 20:41 So, um, remember, it's all about reprod- reproduction.

Steven Bartlett 20:46 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 20:46 Right? So if you've got two very divergent sets of genetics in terms of the immune system, that child is gonna have a broader, uh, genetic base as their immune system, as opposed to two identical or close to it, where they'd have a very narrow genetic base for immune- immunity.

Steven Bartlett 21:12 Is there anything else, that if- if you were advising me, if I was a single man and I was saying, "Okay, how do I find a partner?" Um, what should I be doing or looking for? Should I make a list of things that I'm looking for? Um, should I be... I don't know, y- uh, you said earlier about being my authentic self-

Julie Gottman 21:27 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 21:27 ... as much as I can be, because that- you don't want people to be attracted to your mask, but should I be making a list? Like, what- what should I be going for? Is there qualities that are e- enduring as it relates to success in romance that everyone should be looking for?

Julie Gottman 21:41 You know-

Steven Bartlett 21:42 Sh- should I lower my expectations?

Julie Gottman 21:44 It's not about qualities. It's about... Well, I hate to say it, but it's more about behavior. So, for example, um, and (laughs) I have so many, particularly women, who've been divorced and now they're dating, and they ask that question, and here are several of the things that I always tell them. One is, uh, does the person, male or female, ask you questions about yourself or do they broadcast? Do they just tell you who they are? "Oh my God, my boss just gave me a promotion. Oh my," you know, "Aren't I cool?" Or, "I just won this athletic competition." No. Are they asking you questions about yourself? And not only that, but listening to the answers, right? (laughs) And taking in the answers and, "Oh, that's interesting. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm." That's one.

Steven Bartlett 22:36 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 22:37 Another is, you know, our society is very striated, right? So, how do they treat people who have, let's say, less social status than they do? How do they treat the waitress who comes to their table? Do they treat them with disdain or scorn or, you know, "The steak is terrible. Take it back."

Steven Bartlett 23:03 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 23:04 Or are they kind? Do they treat them like human beings? That's another thing. Do they treat people equally or, uh, do they only treat a certain group with respect and the others not?

Steven Bartlett 23:19 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 23:19 That's number two. Number three is, are they reliable? Do they do what they say they're gonna do? If they say they're gonna call you, do they call you? If they say, "I'll pick you up at 8:00," are they there at 8:00? So, reliability is a big deal, and of course nobody can be perfectly reliable, you know, life happens, but do they call you to let you know, "Oh, I ran into heavy traffic so I'll be 20 minutes late"? So, you know, there's a consideration there of your time, of your energy, curiosity, as John pointed out, uh, as to who you are, and also, um... (laughs) There are so many people who, as you have been talking about, are so terribly lonely. Watch out for this. Watch out for people saying, in the first date, "Oh my God, you're it. You're the answer."

Steven Bartlett 24:21 (gasps)

Julie Gottman 24:21 (gasps) "Oh my God, you're fantastic. I think I love you." You know, that kind of...... um, rush into "Let's have an intimate relationship right now. I wanna marry you, and I'm gonna ask you tomorrow." No. You know, they... People need to take their time to get to know one another and peel away the layers slowly and carefully to build trust.

Steven Bartlett 24:52 Do you think that speed to rush into a relationship is a sign of something else further up-

Julie Gottman 24:57 Sure.

Steven Bartlett 24:57 ... like further upstream-

Julie Gottman 24:58 Sure.

Steven Bartlett 24:58 ... maybe insecurity or-

Julie Gottman 24:59 You bet. Needy. They're... And I don't like the word needy, um, because everybody has needs. We're pack animals, you know. We need each other. We depend on each other. But, um, somebody who can contain themselves, as you were pointing out.

Steven Bartlett 25:17 With or without your energy.

Julie Gottman 25:18 That's right.

Steven Bartlett 25:19 Yeah.

Julie Gottman 25:20 And have done that internal work so that they're not looking to you to answer every problem they have.

John Gottman 25:28 Mm-hmm. You know, I would give different advice to, to a male who's, who's dating. I, I would say, you know, just have fun. You know, meet people.

Julie Gottman 25:37 Huh.

John Gottman 25:37 Like, uh, when I was-

Julie Gottman 25:38 What a concept.

John Gottman 25:38 ... creating my database, you know, I, I met a woman who was a survivalist. She had a .38 Magnum pistol right by her, by her bedside. And she spent thousands of dollars on gowns to go to opera, 'cause she loved opera. And I remember sitting there in her house and saying, you know, "God, this is really interesting."

Julie Gottman 25:59 (laughs)

John Gottman 25:59 You know, I, I, I don't know if I like this person or I can be with this person, but she's fascinating, you know. It's kinda fun getting to know her. And then at a certain point, there's somebody you meet, like I met Julie, and everything feels right. The world just kind of opens up when you talk. And your heart opens, and it's very different. It's not just interesting. It's really... There's potential there that you don't feel with anybody else.

Steven Bartlett 26:30 Were you desperate when you met Julie, though?

John Gottman 26:32 I don't think I was. No. I don't think I was desperate. I, I'd been divorced for about seven years, and I was looking to meet somebody my, you know, close to my age who, you know, was an interesting person. And, uh, I met a lot of interesting people, but she was different.

Steven Bartlett 26:50 I, I ask this question in part 'cause I, I wonder if someone's ever done a study where they take a group of people who are looking to find someone, and then they take a group of people who aren't really looking, and they see who has the most success.

John Gottman 27:01 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 27:01 And when I say looking, I mean some people are literally looking for a husband, and they, they feel like they need to find one within six months-

John Gottman 27:10 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 27:11 ... because, you know, biological clocks and goals they might have for their lives and all these kinds of things, versus a group of people that are just open to it. And I wonder who's more attractive.

John Gottman 27:21 I think either one can work.

Steven Bartlett 27:23 Right. Really.

John Gottman 27:23 You know, I, I don't think there has to be a magic formula. So I think, I think if you approach the whole situation with curiosity and wonder, you know, and just kind of see who you meet and see what happens.

Steven Bartlett 27:37 But, but that seems-

Julie Gottman 27:38 Mm-mm.

Steven Bartlett 27:38 ... almost more like this group here.

Julie Gottman 27:39 Mm-mm. Mm-mm.

Steven Bartlett 27:40 You know?

Julie Gottman 27:41 That's right. I agree with you. What you're describing is that being confident in yourself and just being curious, as opposed to, "I really have to find somebody. I need to find somebody."

Steven Bartlett 27:55 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 27:56 Um, very, very, very different.

Steven Bartlett 27:59 Mm-hmm. I think about this in part... In the context of business as well, because as an investor, you get an energy from the entrepreneur that's trying to get investment from you-

John Gottman 28:09 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 28:09 ... as to whether they need you or whether you're an option. And it's so remarkable how much more likely you are to invest in a founder who makes you feel like an option-

John Gottman 28:24 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 28:24 ... and I think a- because... And then you have these other founders, when I can literally think of one example that popped in my mind from the last couple of weeks where they were so desperate that it was almost rude.

John Gottman 28:34 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 28:35 Wow.

Steven Bartlett 28:35 And, and-

Julie Gottman 28:35 How did that manifest?

Steven Bartlett 28:37 As in the way that they sent their emails and the way that they were, like, demanding and how urgent they wanted to speak to you and all these kinds of things and how, like, low-key, um, expectant they were-

Julie Gottman 28:51 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 28:51 ... from you made me feel like their business wasn't doing well. Whereas found- And I, and I, I think about this in the context of relationships, whereas the founders and entrepreneurs that message me, where they're kinda more patient, they... You know, they're kind of maybe a little bit busier.

Julie Gottman 29:06 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 29:06 But the ones that have that, like... It's- I'll keep going back to that phrase, like with or without your energy, where you're an option to them, you're much more likely to invest. You feel like it's a privilege to invest. And I think about this from the context of the question I just asked. If someone's like, "I need a husband now,"-

John Gottman 29:19 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 29:19 ... versus someone's like, "I'm open. I'm curious. I'm willing to go on the date and see-"

John Gottman 29:24 Yeah. Right.

Steven Bartlett 29:24 "... if we're right," because I realize that me saying yes to you is a huge investment, so I need to take my time to figure out if that investment is gonna be worthwhile, 'cause I respect myself.

Julie Gottman 29:35 Right.

John Gottman 29:35 Yeah. Maybe you're right.

Julie Gottman 29:36 Right. Right.

John Gottman 29:37 Maybe it's better if you're just kind of confident and not so desperate.

Steven Bartlett 29:42 Can you fake confidence, Julie?

Julie Gottman 29:44 Mm-mm.

Steven Bartlett 29:44 (laughs)

Julie Gottman 29:45 Mm-mm.

Steven Bartlett 29:45 This is the problem.

John Gottman 29:46 (laughs)

Julie Gottman 29:46 No. You know, as a matter of fact, when people try to fake confidence, they often, um, overstep it. Right? And, uh... Golly, I know... I'll never forget this fellow in high school. He would brag about himself without knowing that he was bragging. He would boast and boast and boast and boast. And I realized, "Oh my God, I cannot stand this." You know, because it was so fake. But, important thing, I realized that the extremity of my negative attitude towards him was because there was a part of me that was just like that, that felt insecure, that wanted to present, you know, this perfect image to people that I wasn't.

Steven Bartlett 30:34 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 30:35 Uh, which is what he was trying to do.... and so then it's like, "Oh, (laughs) I've got a little work to do on myself."

John Gottman 30:43 Well, you know one thing, one thing about this dating situation is, that's interesting, is even though there's nothing you can measure in individuals that will predict that they like each other, once they get together and start interacting, our lab can measure if that interaction has promise or not.

Steven Bartlett 31:03 Wow.

John Gottman 31:04 Really, we measure openness, uh, the emotional connection, the fact that people are either connecting with one another, communicating with one another or not. We measure tension versus relaxation when we measure, uh, curiosity and interest.

Julie Gottman 31:24 Eye gaze.

John Gottman 31:24 You know, all of

John Gottman 31:25 those things. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 31:26 So, so can you give me really specifically exactly how a couple would show up, really specifically, if they were, if they had promise to last and be successful together?

John Gottman 31:36 So if you watch their videotape, and they had promise, you'd find them laughing together, uh, you know, mirroring each other, smiling, uh, asking questions, being open, uh, wondering about things, and you'd have this real sense of exploration and open- openness, and, um, curiosity and interest in one another, whereas in, in a couple that wasn't doing very well, you'd, you'd sense this tension, uh, sarcasm, a lot of, you know, negativity, uh, bragging about themselves, talking about themselves rather than being interested in the other person.

Steven Bartlett 32:21 Body language?

John Gottman 32:22 Body language.

Steven Bartlett 32:23 What would-

John Gottman 32:23 The ratio of positive to negative emotion in, in those couples would be much less than one, whereas it would be three to one, or five to one among couples who are really getting along very, very well, where there's this potential, this openness and potential.

Steven Bartlett 32:40 What's the difference in body language?

Julie Gottman 32:42 Let me, let me demonstrate it.

Steven Bartlett 32:44 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 32:44 So somebody who's overconfident, pretend he's not sitting here, is just gonna be doing ...

Steven Bartlett 32:50 So-

Julie Gottman 32:51 That.

Steven Bartlett 32:51 ... for people that aren't watching, laying back, arm-

Julie Gottman 32:54 Laying back, your arm, you know, stretched out over the top of the chair next to you. You're leaning back, you know, which is-

Steven Bartlett 33:04 "I'm too good for this."

Julie Gottman 33:05 ... "Come to me. Come to me." You know?

John Gottman 33:07 "It's all me."

Julie Gottman 33:08 Um, "It's all about me, and I'm so cool."

John Gottman 33:12 (laughs)

Julie Gottman 33:12 And somebody who is really engaged is gonna be more kind of leaning forward and making eye contact, being fairly relaxed, you know, not, not hunching their shoulders inwards, which shows they're probably depressed, they're insecure, they're hiding out. But, you know, just relaxed, their shoulders are, you know, not up to their ears, um, they're allowing their eye gaze to look away as they think about something, and then they look right at you when they answer the question.

John Gottman 33:53 Yeah.

Julie Gottman 33:53 All of those indicators.

John Gottman 33:57 That ratio of I to other-

Steven Bartlett 34:00 Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 34:01 ... "I, me, mine," you know, predominates, uh, conversations where there's all this tension.

Steven Bartlett 34:07 Say that again, sorry?

John Gottman 34:08 Is where, you know, the conversation is really about just myself, I'm sort of putting myself in the center, versus being interested in you, being interested in us-

Steven Bartlett 34:20 Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 34:20 ... being interested in we, and, and that emerges, that openness emerges in language as well.

Julie Gottman 34:27 There's also a reciprocity, uh, in the sense-

John Gottman 34:31 Right.

Julie Gottman 34:31 ... that, um, let's say you and I are meeting. Um, you ask me some questions about myself, I'll answer those questions, but then I'll ask you, I'll come back and ask you questions about yourself-

John Gottman 34:46 Yeah.

Julie Gottman 34:46 ... as opposed to, "Go ahead, ask me more questions, and more questions, and more."

John Gottman 34:50 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 34:51 Um, so-

John Gottman 34:53 I'm only happy when I'm talking about myself. (laughs)

Julie Gottman 34:55 Right. (laughs)

John Gottman 34:56 (laughs)

Julie Gottman 34:57 Right. So, you know, you're going back and forth exhibiting that curiosity, as opposed to, uh, just adoring somebody being curious about you-

John Gottman 35:09 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 35:09 ... but not reciprocating by being curious about them.

Steven Bartlett 35:13 I, um, it's funny, 'cause you were talking about body language a second ago, and many people will click on episodes on YouTube or podcasts that try and teach us body language.

Julie Gottman 35:24 Mm, mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 35:24 But I, I think, okay, you can learn some of the things, but really, again, I think body language is a symptom of what's going on inside.

Julie Gottman 35:31 How do you-

Steven Bartlett 35:32 You know-

Julie Gottman 35:32 ... build confidence-

Steven Bartlett 35:33 Yeah.

Julie Gottman 35:33 ... is really the question. You know, especially when you begin, uh, let's say in a family or with caretakers who are critical and contemptuous of you.

Steven Bartlett 35:44 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 35:45 And when you have that from practically the ground up, as I did, uh, you internalize that, and you believe you're worthless 'cause you were treated as worthless. So how do you build the confidence, right?

Steven Bartlett 36:03 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 36:03 So either through maybe therapy, through looking at yourself in the mirror and saying, "All right, this is who I am, this is who I am, this is who I am," you know? What I-

Steven Bartlett 36:20 (laughs)

Julie Gottman 36:20 (laughs) I, I used to, uh, like almost every single woman, no matter how beautiful you are, you will always measure yourself as inferior to somebody else. Always, as a woman. I mean, you've seen already six million images of idealized women by the time you're 18. Think about that. So how do you build confidence in what you look like?... go to a locker room where women are undressing and look at their real bodies, and notice the variety. Notice, you know, the, the, whatever, a woman that's larger than the standard, thinner than the standard. Women come in all shapes and sizes, so do men. And just seeing the reality-

Steven Bartlett 37:14 Yeah.

Julie Gottman 37:14 ... the reality as opposed to the photoshopped. You know, that's the thing that is so difficult about technology is that these days, you know, especially with dating apps and so on, people are photoshopping their images or they're taking an image of themselves 30 years ago and-

Steven Bartlett 37:33 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 37:33 ... "There, here is what I am. And I actually still have hair." It's the reality that it's not really about the appearance. It's not even about, you know, the IQ or whatever, or the education. It's really about the ... well, here we go. It's, it's about the heart.

Steven Bartlett 37:53 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 37:53 It's about the heart. Is this a kind person? Is this a caring person? Is this a person who exhibits compassion, who treats people equally and so on?

Steven Bartlett 38:04 Mm-hmm. A dating app wouldn't work on that basis, would it?

Julie Gottman 38:07 No. And most people are lying on (laughs) dating apps too.

Steven Bartlett 38:10 Yeah.

Julie Gottman 38:12 That's right.

Steven Bartlett 38:13 Is there a difference in what men and women look for in a partner as it relates to attraction when they first meet?

John Gottman 38:21 Well, you know, that's an interesting question because, uh, I remember reading this paper by Eli Finkel. He says in the introduction, you know, generally, uh, the dating research suggests that men are looking for physical beauty and, and women are looking for occupational competence and wealth. Uh, but actually when he did this really elaborate speed dating study, none of that actually manifested in people's preferences. Uh, the preferences were all in terms of what it felt like to be together-

Steven Bartlett 38:57 (laughs)

John Gottman 38:57 ... and both men and women were really similar. So when you interact with somebody for ... you're gonna interact with them for five minutes in this speed dating, uh, situation, what made the difference was how much fun it was to interact with them for five minutes, how enjoyable it was.

Steven Bartlett 39:13 Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 39:13 And men and women were the same. So the, the con- the social context of dating is so important, um, because if it's this very tense kind of, you know, evaluative context, nothing is gonna work. But if it's this relaxed, sort of interested, curious context, almost everything's gonna work.

Steven Bartlett 39:37 Now, a lot of dating happens these days with alcohol in a nightclub or with alcohol at maybe dinner or at a bar. Is there a better place to conduct a first date? And if so, why?

Julie Gottman 39:49 Well, first of all, alcohol distorts everything. Drugs distort everything. You know, there's a reason they say intoxicated. Toxic, alcohol is toxic. So it shuts down certain parts of the brain, s- shuts down, to some degree, uh, your ability to judge, your ability to sense, your reflexes, your intuition. Um, all that stuff is shut down to some degree. And so, "Wow, she's really hot, I'm gonna go for her," you know, you're not picking up that, you know, she's wearing a wedding ring, she's sitting with a man who has a matching wedding ... you know, you're not picking up all that stuff. So probably a coffee shop is nice, where we met.

John Gottman 40:39 Yeah.

Julie Gottman 40:40 What do you think?

John Gottman 40:40 Well, I think it needs to be a context that is not evaluative. Um, you know, I think it has to be some kind of relaxed context where you're just kind of getting to know one another-

Julie Gottman 40:51 Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

John Gottman 40:53 ... uh, you know, and seeing what it's like to meet this person. So it's the judgment that makes it tense-

Julie Gottman 40:59 Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 41:00 ... and uncomfortable, and so people need alcohol to get relaxed. And, of course, then they're, you know, or they get high and they're laughing at everything and nothing, and there's no con- there's no connection, there's no real connection. Um, so the evaluative context is the, is kind of like, um, the ant- the antidote to love.

Steven Bartlett 41:25 Hm.

John Gottman 41:25 You have an evaluative context, you know, you're trying to be your, at your best, the other person's trying to be at their best. But, you know, there's no real interest in one another.

Steven Bartlett 41:34 When you say evaluative context, it means that we're evaluating each other. It's really, really overt and clear that we're-

John Gottman 41:39 That's right. It's judgment.

Steven Bartlett 41:39 It's like an interview basically.

John Gottman 41:41 Yeah, it's like, it's like a job interview.

Steven Bartlett 41:44 Interesting.

John Gottman 41:44 Never gonna work. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 41:47 Is there a certain age where if you get together with someone you're more likely to be successful? I was talking to my friend about this actually this weekend 'cause he is, um, approaching 40 and his partner is significantly younger. Um, it's my friend that lives in, uh, America, in New York. And he was telling me that because she's sort of 23, he's struggling a little bit because he wants to settle down and he wants to think about kids now, and she's still trying to figure out life.

Julie Gottman 42:14 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 42:14 So it made me wonder if maybe he should be aiming at people that are at least that, that sort of 30 age where you start-

John Gottman 42:18 Right.

Steven Bartlett 42:19 ... you know? And, and I don't know if there's any research to ...

Julie Gottman 42:22 It's true. You know, I, I don't know about the research, but what I've seen clinically is that people who date, uh, others that are very, very different in age from them have a problem typically because first of all they're, um, the social history in which they were raised is different, right? So for example, John and I, uh, though we're not the same age, we're about nine years apart, but we both went through Vietnam, we both went through all the assassinations in the US-

John Gottman 42:55 Civil Rights Movement.

Julie Gottman 42:56 ... the Civil Rights Movement. You know, I got arrested, he didn't. I was unlucky, you know, in the protesting stuff, but, but...... that context, you know, understanding, uh, a period of history that you grew up in is really important, and also internally in the sense that there are really phases of development that you go through as you get older. And you're absolutely right, Stephen, in that a 40-year-old who wants to now settle down, create a home, create a family, and a 23-year-old are incredibly different developmentally. So their goals will be different. Their values will be different, if you will. Uh, their maturity will be different. Um, their interests also may be strikingly different. There may be a real difference in valuing commitment, you know, and so on. Uh, so I've seen relationships work with that kind of disparate-

Steven Bartlett 43:59 Uh-huh.

Julie Gottman 44:00 ... age, but typically, um, that can happen more easily when you're older, when you've already created your identity, you've already identified what, what profession or line of work you wanna do, uh, whether or not you wanna have kids or if you've already had kids-

Steven Bartlett 44:18 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 44:18 ... and so on. So like a 40-year-old and a 50-year-old-

Steven Bartlett 44:23 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 44:23 ... or 55-year-old would be very different than a 40-year-old and a 23-year-old.

Steven Bartlett 44:29 Um, good enough relationships.

John Gottman 44:32 Perfect.

Steven Bartlett 44:33 Should I be looking for ... 'Cause this goes back to what I was saying earlier about, you know, looking for the one, looking for your Julie, or should I be looking for a relationship that is good enough, um, and then try and build it to be a great relationship? Because there's a lot of people that are maybe over 30 years old, over 40 years old-

John Gottman 44:51 Right.

Steven Bartlett 44:51 ... who are single, um, struggling to find someone that's great, and so they ... their friends or their partners or, you know, their people around them are saying, "Just, you know, that person's good enough. That person's good enough. Just, you know-"

John Gottman 45:05 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 45:05 "... give them a chance and go on the date," and ...

John Gottman 45:07 Yeah, I think, I think there's a lot to that point of view, uh, because when, you know, when you're looking for the perfect relationship that's good in every dimension, uh-

Steven Bartlett 45:21 Hm.

John Gottman 45:21 ... you're gonna be disappointed, and, uh, I think, I think it makes some sense to look for what's good enough, and so, you know, what's good enough for one person is not the same as what's good enough for another person. I know, you know, what's good enough for me is having somebody you can really trust and really feel a sense of commitment toward, and those two dimensions are absolutely critical.

Steven Bartlett 45:48 Is that wh- ... Wh- did you have non-negotiables, both of you, i.e., were there ... Was, was there anything on your list of things that were mandatory in finding your partner?

John Gottman 45:59 Yeah, for me, it was wanting children.

Steven Bartlett 46:01 So that's a non-negotiable for you.

John Gottman 46:03 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 46:04 Was there anything else that was non-negotiable?

John Gottman 46:08 Uh, monogamy.

Steven Bartlett 46:09 Okay, yeah.

John Gottman 46:10 For me.

Steven Bartlett 46:11 Yeah.

Julie Gottman 46:13 Sense of humor-

Steven Bartlett 46:15 Yeah.

Julie Gottman 46:15 ... was really important. I think another thing, too, is do you get bored talking to them-

Steven Bartlett 46:23 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 46:23 ... or not? Or are they continually interesting to you?

Steven Bartlett 46:28 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 46:29 Um, but I think one of the most important things is how do they make you feel about yourself, not just, you know, you're attracted to them or whatever, but how do they make you feel about yourself?

Steven Bartlett 46:43 Hmm.

Julie Gottman 46:44 If they make you feel, uh, dumb, or unkind, or too needy, or whatever, not cool. On the other hand, if they make you feel like the most gorgeous thing in the world, and the most brilliant person in the world, et cetera, and you know you're not, that's not it either. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 47:08 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 47:09 You know? So do they recognize you? It's almost like that. Do they recognize you in your fullness of humanity? And, you know, that takes time, of course. You have to get to know one another. Um, but let's see. Non-negotiables.

John Gottman 47:28 I know I ... I know very quickly, um, I think we both realized that whenever we spend time together, it's always interesting and fun-

Julie Gottman 47:40 That's true.

John Gottman 47:40 ... talking over anything is really-

Julie Gottman 47:42 That's true, and everything that you said, everything that came out of your mouth was so friggin' fascinating. I knew I would be learning from him the rest of my life.

John Gottman 47:52 Yeah, I felt the same way about you, you know, and-

Julie Gottman 47:56 Hmm.

John Gottman 47:56 ... road ... a road trip was an opportunity.

Julie Gottman 47:58 (laughs)

John Gottman 47:58 It was really-

Julie Gottman 47:59 Right.

John Gottman 47:59 ... you know, a time to talk about our dreams and our hopes about the-

Julie Gottman 48:04 Changes.

John Gottman 48:04 ... world and, yeah.

Julie Gottman 48:05 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 48:06 What about sex and the role that plays in attraction? I ask this question-

Julie Gottman 48:10 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 48:10 ... because I had a relationship when I used to live in New York, and I really, really liked this person. We got on, all the things you described, the road trips, everything was fun, and then when it came to the point where we had sexual intimacy, it just wasn't there.

John Gottman 48:26 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 48:27 And it was, it was crushing for me because-

John Gottman 48:29 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 48:30 ... this person was perfect in every conceivable way, smart, kind, fun, everything. I just ... And then the minute we moved to the, the next stage, it just wasn't there. I just wasn't sexually attracted to them.

John Gottman 48:43 I've had that experience too. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 48:44 And so it made me add to my list of non-negotiables a third thing. At the time, there was two things on that list. The first was they kinda helped me become a better version of myself in however I wanna define that. The second was this intellectual stimulation, the ability to conversate and be interested in them-

Julie Gottman 48:58 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 48:58 ... and them interested in me.

Julie Gottman 48:59 Right.

John Gottman 48:59 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 48:59 And the third became not about appearance at all. It was purely a sexual connection.

John Gottman 49:05 I see.

Steven Bartlett 49:05 Because-

John Gottman 49:06 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:07 And so-... I just wonder wha- the role that sexual intimacy and sexual attraction plays in having a, a good relationship with someone.

Julie Gottman 49:14 Yeah. You know, I think that really varies, Stephen-

Steven Bartlett 49:17 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 49:17 ... because, um, there's a huge range of the importance sexuality plays in individuals.

Steven Bartlett 49:26 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 49:26 You know, some people are practically asexual.

Steven Bartlett 49:29 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 49:30 Other people, you know, it's been a really long time if they hadn't had sex in four hours.

Steven Bartlett 49:35 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 49:35 So... And everything in between. So, I think to some degree that's an individual choice-

Steven Bartlett 49:44 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 49:45 ... as to how important is sexuality to you, and having a wonderful sexual connection, as opposed to, "Eh, who cares?" You know, "I just wanna have a cup of coffee and a pastry."

Steven Bartlett 49:58 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 49:58 You know? It... So, every individual needs to decide that for themselves, how important it is.

Steven Bartlett 50:06 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 50:06 And then, you know, if it, if it is important, even of average importance, it's really important.

Steven Bartlett 50:14 Hmm.

Julie Gottman 50:15 Yeah. But the other thing too that's interesting... I mean, we're talking about dating, but I've also seen relationships that have been together for a long time, and, uh, the sex falls away.

Steven Bartlett 50:27 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 50:29 But it's much more important to one person than the other, and they diverged, and it becomes, you know, a pretty serious problem. Uh, it didn't start off that way.

Steven Bartlett 50:42 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 50:42 But it can become that way.

Steven Bartlett 50:45 And what happens in those scenarios?

Julie Gottman 50:47 Well, you know, typically, it's really interesting, um, of course, in second r- well, second marriages or relationships at, let's say, over 40 or so, um, women, uh, especially women going through perimenopause, you know, finishing with menopause, um, sex hormones d- go way down. They go way down. And so, are they still interested in having sex? Well, they may not be so interested in it that they want to initiate sex, but we're all hardwired (laughs) in particular ways. Um, so you touch there, you lick there, you know, you stimulate here, and that wiring is gonna kick in-

Steven Bartlett 51:39 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 51:39 ... and the sexuality will kick in again, and the sexual responsiveness will kick in. So, um, you can work on that angle, number one. But number two, oftentimes, there have been big emotional injuries-

Steven Bartlett 51:57 Hm.

Julie Gottman 51:57 ... that have broken trust, that have broken emotional connection. And the... Okay, so two theories. One, most men in Western culture are not... Uh, they don't accept themselves if they just wanna cuddle. That's not masculine, right? So, everybody needs touch, but for many, many men who bought into that, the only way they can get touch is through sex. They can't just say, "Will you please just hold me?" Women can, because women are considered, you know, more vulnerable and, uh, softer, and it's okay for them, you know, to ask to just be held, but not for men. So, you know, sex becomes a difficult thing there, too, especially with an ultra-masculine man where he's just come back from war. He wants to just be held, but he can't ask for that. He's gotta be tough and strong-

Steven Bartlett 53:07 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 53:07 ... and sexy. Therefore, he'll go for sex.

Steven Bartlett 53:11 Yeah. Any thoughts on that, John?

John Gottman 53:16 I, I, I think I agree with you. Uh, it, it's, it's not negotiable, you know? It's, it's one of these intangible things that, you know, if it's not there, it's not gonna work very well.

Julie Gottman 53:29 In the beginning-

John Gottman 53:30 Uh, yeah.

Julie Gottman 53:30 ... if it's not there.

Steven Bartlett 53:31 That's right, right, right.

John Gottman 53:32 Yeah.

Julie Gottman 53:32 Right, mm-hmm.

John Gottman 53:33 I mean, it's...

Julie Gottman 53:35 Yeah.

John Gottman 53:35 I think it needs to be there.

Steven Bartlett 53:37 Because it goes on a journey, all relationships.

John Gottman 53:40 Right.

Steven Bartlett 53:40 And it's funny, 'cause from doing this podcast and speaking to a lot of sort of sex the- therapists or couples therapists, this... One of them said something to me one day, or maybe two of them said the same point, I think two or three of them said the same point, which is much of what makes sex so, you know, arousing is the spontaneity and the novelness, the newness of it, the excitement of it, all these kinds of things. And they said to me that love is, in many respects, the opposite of that. It's the opposite of spontaneity, and... Love is like security and trust and dependability, and it's, you know, knowing someone. So, I, I've spoken to a few of my friends, in fact, about this balancing act between like, "I really love this person. I know them, and I'm there for them, and we, we know everything about each other," and then, like, having to fight to also create this excitement. Like, "How do I, how do I love you like we've known each other for 10 years, and you can trust me and depend on me? But then how do I have sex with you like, (laughs) like we've just met?" (laughs) It's this-

John Gottman 54:46 So we call it the Coolidge effect. Have, have you heard of this? Uh, Calvin Coolidge, uh, was President of the United States, and he and his wife were visiting, visiting a farm. And, uh, and as the President, uh, was led past these, uh, chickens and roosters, the farmer said, "Oh, uh, this rooster has sex 17 times a day, and Mrs. Coolidge wanted me to point that out to you, Mr. President."... when she came by here, 'cause we pointed out that rooster has sex 17 times a day, and Calvin Coolidge said, "With the same hen?" And the farmer said, "No, always a different hen." He said... And the president said, "Tell that to Mrs. Coolidge."

Julie Gottman 55:34 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 55:35 Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 55:35 So the Coolidge Effect is that it has to be novel, it has to be exciting to be erotic, right?

Steven Bartlett 55:42 Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 55:42 And familiarity, you know, which creates security and relaxation and openness is antithetical to the novelty that creates sexual excitement. But the truth is actually not so simple-

Steven Bartlett 55:57 (laughs) .

John Gottman 55:57 ... uh, because eroticism often really results from really creating an erotic situation together and making it-

Steven Bartlett 56:09 Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 56:09 ... an erotic situation. And for women especially, feeling safe and feeling emotionally connected is a prerequisite for feeling really attracted-

Steven Bartlett 56:20 Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 56:20 ... and feeling that this is an erotic situation. That emotional connection is necessary for many women. Because women have such a s- strange relationship to safety and fear compared to men. The world is so much more a dangerous place for women than it is for men.

Steven Bartlett 56:38 Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 56:39 Women really need that emotional safety and connection in order to feel that the situation is erotic at all. It's important for your, your audience to realize that the largest study done on the quality of sex with 70,000 people in 24 countries found that the differences between people who say they have a great sex life and people who say they have an awful sex life has to do with affection and emotional connection, that people who have a great sex life say, "I love you," every day and mean it, kiss each other passionately for no reason at all, cuddle, they're affectionate even in public, they have romantic dates. So affection and emotional connection, for most people all over the planet, are connected rather than there being this dichotomy between if you're close and if your friendship is good, sex is gonna be terrible, and if you're distant and, you know, uh, it's novel, sex is gonna be great. It's just not true.

Julie Gottman 57:45 That's right.

Steven Bartlett 57:46 And is there a certain amount of... 'Cause a lot of couples fall into this trap of sort of fake comparison, whether it's social media or movies-

John Gottman 57:53 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 57:53 ... where we think, "Okay, if we're not having sex three times a week, something's wrong, I need to raise it, we need to argue about it, we need to fix it," is there any merit-

John Gottman 58:02 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 58:02 ... to the quantity resulting in, you know, happiness?

John Gottman 58:07 No. No relationship between quantity and happiness.

Julie Gottman 58:11 Mm-mm. Mm-mm. Um-

John Gottman 58:12 Quality, yes.

Julie Gottman 58:13 Well, (clears throat) with the caveat, (laughs) with the caveat that if you have two people paired together, one who is extremely sexual-

Steven Bartlett 58:26 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 58:26 ... and, you know, really does need sex frequently and the other one, uh, the opposite-

John Gottman 58:33 Asexual.

Julie Gottman 58:34 ... who is more asexual-

John Gottman 58:35 (clears throat) .

Julie Gottman 58:36 ... and, you know, could take it or leave it, wants sex maybe once a month-

John Gottman 58:40 That's not gonna work.

Julie Gottman 58:41 ... that's not gonna work.

Steven Bartlett 58:42 Mm-hmm. One of the things me and my friends have been deliberating about is the importance of what we call desire management, which is-

John Gottman 58:52 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 58:52 ... if someone is, like-

John Gottman 58:53 That's-

Steven Bartlett 58:53 ... ar- around too much and they're there every second of every day-

John Gottman 58:57 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 58:57 ... in the house, when I get home, you know, everywhere, does that not, to some degree, start to kill the desire a little bit? One of the best things that I, I think I've found in my relationship is that my partner's always working away, then I'm working away, and so when we see each other, it feels special and interesting. But I personally don't know that if we were both in the house seven days a week and I worked from home with her, whether the desire would be the same. I don't know.

Julie Gottman 59:25 You know, I, I think that e- e-... For example, Jon and I are around each other seven days a week and we have been for, you know, most of our marriage, but it doesn't matter. Um-

Steven Bartlett 59:36 Is that because of my attachment style maybe? Because (laughs) -

John Gottman 59:39 (laughs) .

Steven Bartlett 59:39 ...'cause, you know, I wonder if that-

John Gottman 59:41 Could be.

Steven Bartlett 59:42 Yeah.

Julie Gottman 59:42 Yeah.

John Gottman 59:42 Yeah.

Julie Gottman 59:42 It could be. It could be.

John Gottman 59:44 I need a lot of solitude.

Steven Bartlett 59:46 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 59:47 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 59:48 But, but you are-

John Gottman 59:48 I think you do too.

Steven Bartlett 59:48 ... around each other.

Julie Gottman 59:49 Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 59:49 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 59:50 But you're around each other most of the time you spen-

Julie Gottman 59:52 Well, we are, but, but, you know, in a house where there's enough space in the house to not be in visual contact with the other person all the time.

John Gottman 1:00:03 Mm-hmm. Right.

Julie Gottman 1:00:04 You see? So he's downstairs, I may be upstairs, something like that, or I can maybe hear him, maybe not. He can hear me, maybe not. You know, so, um...

John Gottman 1:00:19 I think there is something wonderful about being apart and then coming together. That reunion after you've been apart for a while is really-

Julie Gottman 1:00:27 Hmm.

John Gottman 1:00:28 ... quite delicious.

Julie Gottman 1:00:29 You know what though? This is so interesting. I, I am working with an individual right now, uh, and they're both artists, they both travel a whole bunch all the time, and whenever they reunite after one of them is gone, nothing. There's nothing for about two or three days, and then they have to get into the same rhythm again.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:56 Someone said to me on this podcast, they said, "You have to spend 90 minutes a week talking to your partner. And if you don't..." And the person actually said to me, "If you don't get that into your dumb skull, you'll be spending much more time with them in divorce court."

Julie Gottman 1:01:08 Oh.

John Gottman 1:01:08 Wow.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:08 And-

John Gottman 1:01:09 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:09 ... I know it was a, it was a brash thing to say, but I reflected on it and it really helped me because I think-

Julie Gottman 1:01:17 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:17 ... I don't know, I'm, I'm speaking as a man, so I can't speak for all men, I can't speak for women, but-Speaking from, as a man myself and also on behalf of my friends, with my own attachment style, I think that's important to add, I struggle with, naturally, with conflict resolution because conflict resolution to me sounds like blame. So if my, when my partner says, "We need to talk," I'm like, "Oh my fucking God."

Julie Gottman 1:01:40 (laughs)

Narrator 1:01:41 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:01:41 "What, what have I done now?"

Julie Gottman 1:01:43 (laughs)

John Gottman 1:01:44 Right. That's right.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:44 What have I done now? And I sit there like a, a, you know, I feel like it's a s- a kid in school being told off by their, like, their headmaster or their, or a child being told off by their mother. I'm like, "Go on. Tell me all the ways that I'm in- inadequate." But the framing of this idea of you're gonna have to spend 90 minutes a week sitting with each other and talking regardless help me because he, he then went on to say, "Because if you do that, then you can get to play."

John Gottman 1:02:06 Well, and I think-

Steven Bartlett 1:02:07 Hmm.

John Gottman 1:02:07 ... here's, here's my invention. I have a notebook in my back pocket.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:11 Oh, yeah. Interesting.

John Gottman 1:02:11 And it's just designed for when Julie says, "We need to talk." And I take out the notebook and a pen, and I say, "Okay, talk to me. I'm taking notes." I wanna know what's going on, and she'll tell me, "I'm disappointed in you or angry."

Julie Gottman 1:02:27 I don't know. (laughs)

John Gottman 1:02:27 Uh, you know, I mean-

Julie Gottman 1:02:29 (laughs)

John Gottman 1:02:29 ... whatever she says-

Steven Bartlett 1:02:30 Look at you. (laughs)

John Gottman 1:02:30 ... you know, I write it down-

Julie Gottman 1:02:33 Right. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:02:33 Yeah.

John Gottman 1:02:33 ... and reflect it back and see if I understand what she's saying.

Julie Gottman 1:02:37 Yeah.

John Gottman 1:02:37 And so I think, I think it's not just 90 minutes, it's 90 minutes when you're willing to listen non-defensively.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:45 Which is not easy.

John Gottman 1:02:47 That's right. Easy. That's really the work in relationships, is being non-defensive.

Julie Gottman 1:02:53 But that's why we wrote Fight Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:56 Yeah.

Julie Gottman 1:02:56 You know?

Steven Bartlett 1:02:57 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 1:02:57 And when we gave, you know, a talk, uh, it's, it's really so important to not do that, "You, you, you, you."

John Gottman 1:03:08 Blaming thing, yeah.

Julie Gottman 1:03:08 That blaming. It's, you know, "I feel about what? What's the situation?" Not, you know, "The way you failed me." It's the situation.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:21 Julie, is it, is it more often men or women that are saying that I feel?

Julie Gottman 1:03:26 Are you kidding? Men are catching up, but it's hard. It's hard for men to do that. Women, I mean, you go to mental health expertise and all the characteristics of, uh, a man that are considered mentally healthy, autonomy, independence-

John Gottman 1:03:49 Strength.

Julie Gottman 1:03:49 ... uh, strength.

John Gottman 1:03:50 Resilience.

Julie Gottman 1:03:51 Resilience, you know, all the stuff that's autonomous. For women, vulnerability, sensitivity-

John Gottman 1:04:00 Empathy.

Julie Gottman 1:04:00 ... ex- empathy, expressing emotion. So, you know, there's only one emotion that men are allowed to really openly express, anger, right?

Steven Bartlett 1:04:11 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 1:04:12 Can they express fear? "Oh my God, I'm so scared of going in there tomorrow." Or sadness or, you know, the more vulnerable emotions? It's... (laughs) God, think about it. It's seen as effeminate.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:30 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 1:04:30 And that's supposed to be bad? Why is that bad? Because women are second-class citizens, right? So to be l- allegedly like a woman and express vulnerable emotions is a bad thing because you shouldn't be like a woman. Why not?

Steven Bartlett 1:04:53 (laughs)

Julie Gottman 1:04:54 (laughs) What's, you know... I mean, so expressing vulnerable emotions, I think men are starting to catch up, you know?

Steven Bartlett 1:05:01 Don't women like strength?

Julie Gottman 1:05:04 Yes and no. They like strength, but the problem is, is that they also wanna be empathetic, too. They want to be, you know, nourishing to their partner, and if their partner is always presenting this facade of strength, they can't get close to them.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:25 It's like the opposite of connection.

Julie Gottman 1:05:27 Yeah.

John Gottman 1:05:28 But, you know, we, we observed eight-year-olds in playgrounds, uh, and if you, if you look at eight-year-old boys, they'll do run or chase games over a very large distance. And if an emotional event happens, if somebody gets upset, you know, say, "What's the matter, Brian?" says the leader of the group. He says, "I never get the ball." "Okay, toss the ball to Brian."

Julie Gottman 1:05:52 (laughs)

John Gottman 1:05:52 Brian gets the ball and they're off and running. They keep the game in play, manage conflict quickly. Look at two, look at girls. They're playing in groups of two or three close to the school building, and they're talking about their feelings over and over again. "You know, you said that I was a baby-"

Julie Gottman 1:06:13 (laughs)

John Gottman 1:06:13 "... you know, because I had those barrettes. That really hurt my feelings." "Yeah, well, I, you know, I, I only wore barrettes when, when I was little and now I don't wear 'em."

Julie Gottman 1:06:22 (laughs)

John Gottman 1:06:22 "You know, but that hurt my feelings when you said that." "So I, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings." They're talking about emotions constantly, and it's like the hopscotch or whatever game they're playing is just an excuse for talking about emotions. For the boys, the most important thing is keeping the ball in play, and conflict gets in the way of that. They resolve it quickly. They're socialized so differently.

Julie Gottman 1:06:47 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:48 Is, is this part of the reason why it feels for many men that they are being held off all the time? Because then actually what's happening is their, their wife is just expressing their emotions and the man never really expresses it. You know that old sort of slightly problematic phrase which is, "Happy wife, happy life"?

John Gottman 1:07:03 Mm-hmm. That's right. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:04 The reason why that phrase exists, I would assume, is because the man thinks, "As long as I can keep her from expressing more problems to me, then I'm happy."

Julie Gottman 1:07:12 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:07:13 He, like, thinks of his responsibility as just like...

John Gottman 1:07:15 Yeah, ask a man how he's feeling and he says, "Well, I'm not hungry. I'm not horny."

Steven Bartlett 1:07:19 Yeah.

John Gottman 1:07:20 "Uh, I'm okay."

Julie Gottman 1:07:21 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:07:21 Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 1:07:22 You ask a woman how she's feeling, she says, "Well, I don't know. There's, there's, you know, the children and there's this and the house," and, you know, and there's this tangle of questions.... that really she has to address when you ask her how she's feeling. There's so many things. And for a guy, it's so much easier.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:40 But John, as men, I think we can both agree that although ... Well, I'm speaking for myself here, but although in the moment going through that conflict resolution, the 90 minutes a week, getting out your notepad, listening, is annoying in the moment, when we zoom out, we realize that if they didn't raise these issues, if they didn't express these issues, this relationship wouldn't be so good.

John Gottman 1:08:02 That's right.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:02 And we'd be in serious prob- problems.

John Gottman 1:08:03 That's right. They're the managers of intimacy.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:06 Yeah.

John Gottman 1:08:06 We need them.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:09 Yes.

John Gottman 1:08:10 We need them to say-

Steven Bartlett 1:08:12 (laughs)

Julie Gottman 1:08:12 (laughs)

John Gottman 1:08:12 ... "Stephen, we need to talk."

Julie Gottman 1:08:15 Stephen.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:15 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Julie Gottman 1:08:16 Did you see Stephen's face? That was so cute. He went, "Oh, no."

Steven Bartlett 1:08:20 It's true, I realize it. I realize that this is serving a purpose which is helping me.

Julie Gottman 1:08:24 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:25 You know, and it's helping us.

Julie Gottman 1:08:26 Yeah. That's right. That's right.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:26 Um, so I sit there and I'll listen to, you know, the things that, um, the things that aren't right. But you're right. My brain is just like... Me and my friends can sit in silence for eight hours, sat right next to each other, and we'll meet each other, sit in silence for eight hours, leave. "Great evening." (laughs)

Julie Gottman 1:08:43 That's right. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:44 We're both d- we're both, like, doing our own thing.

Julie Gottman 1:08:47 Oh.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:47 But it's just, I think men are such s- simple creatures most of the time.

Julie Gottman 1:08:50 Oh, you are not.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:52 No.

Julie Gottman 1:08:52 That is so not true.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:54 (laughs)

Julie Gottman 1:08:54 You know, uh, one of the things that I've certainly seen in my, my work, you know, I've been doing clinical work for 50 years, and what I see is that men have exactly the same emotions.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:06 Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 1:09:07 Yeah.

Julie Gottman 1:09:07 They do. They just try to bury them, because it's not okay for them to express them, so they just-

Steven Bartlett 1:09:14 Hmm.

John Gottman 1:09:14 Oh.

Julie Gottman 1:09:14 ... try to shove it down, but open a little door crack and up it comes.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:20 Well, Lionel Tiger who studied men's friendships and women's friendships said, "With alcohol, men get together, they're very physical, and they talk about their feelings an enormous amount."

Julie Gottman 1:09:33 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:34 Takes a little alcohol to make it

Steven Bartlett 1:09:36 happen.

Julie Gottman 1:09:37 Two women said to me last night that I was speaking to, um, on, uh, WhatsApp, um, p- people that I work with in a different company, they were saying to me that their partners often express how they're feeling by just sending songs out of the blue.

John Gottman 1:09:50 Sending songs?

Steven Bartlett 1:09:51 Sending songs out of the blue.

Julie Gottman 1:09:52 Well, that's interesting.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:53 And I'd never heard of it, and it... 'Cause one of them said it, and, and the other woman said, "Oh my God, my partner does that too," which is-

Julie Gottman 1:09:58 Wow.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:58 ... instead of, like, telling me how he feels, he'll send me a song which des- which is basically a way-

Julie Gottman 1:10:04 Describes it.

John Gottman 1:10:04 How he feels. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:05 Um, and some of those songs are very romantic and it's like, "I love you, you're the best person I've ever found." But instead of... But he, they can't, he can't vocalize it to her.

Julie Gottman 1:10:11 Oh.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:12 So he has to send her a Spotify link and say, "Listen. This is this." (laughs)

Julie Gottman 1:10:15 Wow. (laughs)

John Gottman 1:10:16 Oh. Aw.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:17 But it's the same thing, right? It's the-

Julie Gottman 1:10:18 That's right.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:19 ... inability to, to vocalize which is, hmm-

Julie Gottman 1:10:22 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:23 ... difficult for men.

Julie Gottman 1:10:24 Keep working on it.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:26 I am, yeah. I'm, like, progressively getting better, but sometimes I have little relapses. If you, if I... I'm very busy in my mind and then I have to have one of those "we need to talk" chats, so I think you're right, there needs to be a bit of a ritual around, like, "Is this a good time?" (laughs)

Julie Gottman 1:10:41 (laughs) That's right.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:42 Yeah. "Will I have your attention?" Or, you know, even being in a different environment, like you said.

Julie Gottman 1:10:46 Well, you can make, you know, make a date to have a talk like that. When we are giving couples workshops, at the very end of it we always, uh, give recommendations for ways of preserving the changes you're making in the relationship, the improvements, and one of them is called the State of the Union meeting, right? Where you start with five appreciations of each other, you know, things you haven't said before that you've noticed that your partner is doing right, and express your gratitude or thanks or your admiration. Then you go into, (laughs) "Okay, so what do we need to change? What do we need to improve?"

Steven Bartlett 1:11:29 Right.

Julie Gottman 1:11:29 And then you finish up with this beautiful question, I just love this question, "How can I make you feel loved this week?"

Steven Bartlett 1:11:39 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 1:11:40 And that's closure.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:42 Hmm. You mentioned the word there, gratitude.

Julie Gottman 1:11:48 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:49 Why is gratitude so important, being grateful for them and expressing it, something that you two both do to each other?

John Gottman 1:11:56 I think, I, I think it's indicative of a habit of mind that's, that's really much more important, a habit of mind where you're noticing what's going right and feeling appreciative for it. And I, I know I wake up every morning lying next to Julie and think, "I'm one lucky guy." You know, "I've got this wonderful woman and, you know, life is good." I go through my checklist. Everybody's okay. All, all the people I love are all right. And I'm with her and I get to see my grandson, you know, and my daughter. Life is good.

Julie Gottman 1:12:36 Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think gratitude brings you into the moment, brings you into the moment. You know, so... And as John pointed out, uh, you're not just looking for what's wrong, you know, or what your partner is doing wrong. You're looking for what your partner is doing right.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:56 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 1:12:56 Um, you know, there's been studies, who was it, Grice and Robinson, I guess, um, who looked at unhappy couples versus happy couples. And unhappy... It wasn't that they weren't doing things for one another, but unhappy couples only saw 50% of what their partners were doing for them.

John Gottman 1:13:17 The positivity.

Julie Gottman 1:13:18 Of the positivity, right, whereas happy couples were seeing it all the time.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:24 It's like they're wearing different sunglasses or something.

Julie Gottman 1:13:26 Yeah. Exactly.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:27 Like a different filter.

Julie Gottman 1:13:27 Different filters. Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 1:13:28 Well, and the negative habit of mind, you know, really puts you in a state of being kind of irritable and grumpy all the time.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:36 Yeah.

John Gottman 1:13:37 You're noticing other people are driving badly and, you know, and-... being careless and making mistakes all the time. And that's all, that's all you see.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:46 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 1:13:47 Yeah.

John Gottman 1:13:47 'Cause gratitude puts you in a different frame of mind, so you notice actually all the good stuff that's going on.

Julie Gottman 1:13:54 Right. Let me draw-

John Gottman 1:13:55 It's more accurate.

Julie Gottman 1:13:56 Let me draw a parallel. One of the things that, uh, I've done in my private practice, I still do, is treat cancer patients and their families. And cancer patients, of course, often are facing the possibility of death. So one of the questions, uh, and oftentimes, I mean, the ones who deal with their diagnosis best are people who say, "Okay, I don't have that long to live. I'm gonna reprioritize my life. I'm gonna really think about what's most important to me for the six months I have left." So one of the things that I do in my practice with couples, um, who are just racing through life together on parallel tracks, not connecting at all, uh, is to ask them, "Okay, you know, if you had six months left to live, how would you wanna spend it? Who would be the most important people that you would wanna draw close to? Who would you not value as much? How would you wanna spend that six months?" And I, I first kind of take people into a very relaxed state so their minds are really free to imagine. Uh...

Steven Bartlett 1:15:24 And, and what's, what's that doing? Is it helping to crystallize whether they should be with this person, or clarify something?

Julie Gottman 1:15:30 Uh, sometimes, but it's more that, "Oh my God, you know, I'm wasting my life trying to make more money. Why am I doing that when I've got this love right here? What's more important to me, making more money or creating more love between us?" That's what it comes down to, oftentimes.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:54 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:55 When do you know, how do you know when to quit a relationship? How do I know if the relationship I'm in is bad, is not good? Because relationships are incredibly tempting. They tempt us back, they offer comfort which sometimes necessarily isn't healthy comfort, but they're very hard to leave. And I actually had a conversation with one of my friends recently. I always talk about my friends because it's the only way I know to draw on case studies.

Julie Gottman 1:16:18 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:16:19 So instead of me just hypothetical, he- coming with something hypothetical, I think about the, the challenges my friends face and got a particular friend who's been in a relationship for many, many years, seven, eight years. Um, relationship is broken, broken down.

Julie Gottman 1:16:31 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:16:31 And he naturally, because the relationship is broken down, is like jumping to repair. But I wonder if he should even repair, because they've broken up six times. They've gone through this cycle six times. So I'm like, "Are they just rushing back together for the comfort of the relationship?"

Julie Gottman 1:16:51 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:16:52 Or, um, should they, you know, take a moment to say, "Is this even right?" But there's also, the answer here applies to people that are in relationships that have those thoughts in their mind, "Is this the right one?" How do you know? How do you know if this is a problem we can solve and should solve or this is just the wrong person?

Julie Gottman 1:17:11 Therapy helps.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:13 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 1:17:13 Has your friend gone to therapy?

Steven Bartlett 1:17:15 N- not-

Julie Gottman 1:17:15 Good therapy?

Steven Bartlett 1:17:17 Not with their partner, no.

Julie Gottman 1:17:18 Uh-uh. Then they don't know.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:20 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 1:17:20 You know, in other words, a lot of people, um, don't know how to deal with conflict, for example. Nobody's taking Relationships 101 in high school, right?

Steven Bartlett 1:17:32 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 1:17:32 To learn how to deal with conflict or to learn how to be more vulnerable to somebody else and be more open and so on. So people don't know how to have good relationships. That's part of what drives the work that John and I do. People just don't know how to do it. And if they did know, they could change those patterns. And so, you know, with your friend, for example, oftentimes, you know, when people have been together for over, you know, a couple of years, they create patterns that are like dark holes. You know, they're like black holes that have this tremendous gravitational pull. And so they keep sinking down into the same patterns over and over and over and over again, right? That's...

Steven Bartlett 1:18:21 Well, this is exactly what happens-

Julie Gottman 1:18:22 That's your problem.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:23 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 1:18:24 But you can change those patterns once you know and practice what the alternatives are.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:34 Oh, okay.

John Gottman 1:18:34 But I think it's, I think it's-

Julie Gottman 1:18:36 Not the partner.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:37 Yeah, yeah.

Julie Gottman 1:18:37 The pattern.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:38 An alternative pattern.

Julie Gottman 1:18:39 Yes.

John Gottman 1:18:40 I think when that fondness and admiration system, you know, the system of affection and respect, love a- and respect is gone and gets replaced by denigration, belittling, contempt.

Julie Gottman 1:18:53 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 1:18:53 That's the time to bail.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:55 And you've seen this in your work, right?

John Gottman 1:18:56 Oh, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:57 This is like much of what you guys, you know, are known for is this... And whenever I hear people talking about the Gottmans, they're always talking to me about the idea of contempt and the Four Horsemen.

John Gottman 1:19:06 Right.

Julie Gottman 1:19:06 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:07 Or anyone that

Julie Gottman 1:19:07 But see, those things-

Steven Bartlett 1:19:08 ... doesn't know.

Julie Gottman 1:19:08 ... can change too.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:10 Yeah.

Julie Gottman 1:19:10 Those things can change too. That often is what constitutes a bad pattern. Or there's been so much of that, that now they avoid each other altogether.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:21 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 1:19:21 And there's huge emotional distance.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:24 What are the Four Horsemen then before we talk about how we would go about changing, if possible, these things?

Julie Gottman 1:19:29 Oh.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:29 For anyone that doesn't know and how you found these Four Horsemen.

John Gottman 1:19:33 Uh, well, Bob Levenson and I, when we, in doing our research, we first, the first thing we looked at w- was what's the ratio of positive to negative emotion in a conversation?

Steven Bartlett 1:19:44 So how did you conduct this experiment?

John Gottman 1:19:46 ... really just observing couples talking about how their day went.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:50 How do you know-

John Gottman 1:19:51 At the end of the day.

Julie Gottman 1:19:51 Well, wait, wait, wait.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:52 Yeah.

Julie Gottman 1:19:52 Bring them into the lab-

Steven Bartlett 1:19:54 A lab?

Julie Gottman 1:19:54 ... first of all.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:55 What's the lab?

Julie Gottman 1:19:56 Uh, the lab was a room where they sat facing one another. There were video cameras here and there that were focused on-

Steven Bartlett 1:20:09 Faces.

Julie Gottman 1:20:09 ... each individual and their faces and their body language. Um, there was what was called a gigalometer, how much they moved in their chairs, you know, how much the chairs moved. Physiological measures, what was happening to their heart rate, you know, as well as-

John Gottman 1:20:24 Heart velocity, respiration.

Julie Gottman 1:20:26 Respiration.

John Gottman 1:20:27 And conductance.

Julie Gottman 1:20:28 Right. And all of that, all of that data that was pulled from those measures was all synchronized, you know, hundredth of a second by hundredth of a second. And they would talk for, let's say, 15 minutes about the events of the day, and then they were asked to talk about a problem they hadn't solved and to try and solve it or talk about it. So that, you know, ends up being conflict. And-

John Gottman 1:20:55 Then a positive topic.

Julie Gottman 1:20:57 And then a positive topic.

John Gottman 1:20:59 Or in, in the apartment lab, they just hung out for, you know, 12 hours before they went to sleep, and the cameras just rolled while we collected physiological data. So that ratio-

Steven Bartlett 1:21:10 So you really spied on them?

John Gottman 1:21:11 Huh?

Steven Bartlett 1:21:11 You really spied.

John Gottman 1:21:12 We, we spied on them, right.

Julie Gottman 1:21:13 Except they knew they were being spied on.

John Gottman 1:21:14 (laughs) Yeah. And-

Steven Bartlett 1:21:15 For 12 hours, you watched them just sort of chill and hang out together, couples?

John Gottman 1:21:18 That's right.

Steven Bartlett 1:21:19 How many couples have you-

John Gottman 1:21:20 130.

Steven Bartlett 1:21:21 And how many couples have been in the lab in total?

Julie Gottman 1:21:23 3,000.

Steven Bartlett 1:21:24 3,000?

John Gottman 1:21:25 Yeah.

Julie Gottman 1:21:25 And they were followed, you know. So then they'd be brought back every couple of years-

John Gottman 1:21:30 Every... Right.

Julie Gottman 1:21:31 ... uh, to see how-

John Gottman 1:21:33 Their relationship changed.

Julie Gottman 1:21:35 Right. So the procedures would be repeated every couple of years for as long as 20 years.

Steven Bartlett 1:21:41 And what did you find?

John Gottman 1:21:42 So that the, initially, that ratio of positive to negative interaction, even talking about how their day went, or especially during conflict, for people who are in happy, stable relationship, it averaged five positives for every negative.

Steven Bartlett 1:21:59 Positive is about the other person or about one of-

Julie Gottman 1:22:01 Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 1:22:01 No, just positive emotion, like-

Julie Gottman 1:22:03 Let's describe positives.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:05 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 1:22:05 So a positive can be nodding your head. It can be smiling. It can be asking a question.

John Gottman 1:22:12 Affection, humor, validation.

Julie Gottman 1:22:14 Showing interest.

John Gottman 1:22:15 Interest in the other person. Uh, negative would be anger, irritability, uh, disappointment, hurt, disgust, contempt. Uh, shared humor was another big positive that turned out to be very important. The- so that ratio of positive to negative averaged five to one in relationships that were stable and happy, and-

Julie Gottman 1:22:37 During conflict.

John Gottman 1:22:38 ... during conflict, and point eight to one in relationships that were headed for disaster, either splitting up or being together unhappily. Uh, but certain negatives were much more predictive of relationship demise, and they were criticism, defensiveness, contempt, and stonewalling.

Julie Gottman 1:23:01 So let's define what those are. So criticism means blaming a problem on a personality flaw of your partner, like, "You're so lazy, you'd never think to clean up the kitchen, wouldn't you?" Or, "God, you're thoughtless. You didn't even call me when you were gonna be late." You know, thoughtless, lazy, inconsiderate, selfish-

John Gottman 1:23:21 Always, never.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:22 Ah, okay.

Julie Gottman 1:23:23 ... right? Those.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:23 So making it about their personality and their character.

John Gottman 1:23:26 Right.

Julie Gottman 1:23:26 That's right.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:26 Okay.

Julie Gottman 1:23:26 That's a criticism. Contempt is the worst. That's sulfuric acid for a relationship, um, where you're looking down your nose with disgust as well as criticism of the partner.

John Gottman 1:23:41 Superiority.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:42 So give me an example of that.

John Gottman 1:23:44 "You're such an idiot, you know? You just never get things right, you know? It's just, y- you're just not like me, you know? I- I'm thoughtful and considerate and you're just, you're just..."

Julie Gottman 1:23:57 "You're stupid."

John Gottman 1:23:57 "... you're a narcissist, you know?"

Julie Gottman 1:24:00 Right, right. So there, there's the criticism, but it's making yourself superior to that other person.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:06 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 1:24:07 And there's a little disgust in it, you know, snide kind of stuff.

John Gottman 1:24:12 Sarcasm is a good example.

Julie Gottman 1:24:13 Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 1:24:15 Mockery.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:16 Especially in front of people.

Julie Gottman 1:24:18 Ugh.

John Gottman 1:24:18 Yeah, right.

Julie Gottman 1:24:19 Awful.

John Gottman 1:24:20 So the person says, "Well, I really care how you feel." "You really care how I feel?" You know, ugh. So that's contempt.

Julie Gottman 1:24:30 Yep.

John Gottman 1:24:30 Stonewalling is really emotional withdrawal.

Julie Gottman 1:24:32 Defensiveness, don't forget defensiveness.

John Gottman 1:24:33 And defensiveness.

Julie Gottman 1:24:35 Yeah. So every... Defensiveness is the one we all have-

Steven Bartlett 1:24:38 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Julie Gottman 1:24:39 ... (laughs) that is so hard to get over, which is, you know, you either kind of whine like an innocent victim, you know, "I did too pay the bills on time. What do you mean?"

John Gottman 1:24:49 "I'm thoughtful. I'm thoughtful."

Julie Gottman 1:24:51 "I am thoughtful. Don't you remember blah, blah, blah?" Or it's counterattack, "Oh, yeah?"

John Gottman 1:24:56 "You're so perfect, huh?"

Julie Gottman 1:24:58 "You never clean up the kitchen." You know, it's that counterattacking.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:02 Do you find that insecure people are more defensive?

Julie Gottman 1:25:05 Sure.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:06 I have this, like, theory that if your self-esteem and your self-perception of yourself is fragile, then anyone poking at it at all causes such extreme pain-

John Gottman 1:25:15 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:15 ... that you, like, you live in a, uh, this state of, like, "I have never done anything wrong. I can't possibly do anything wrong." And if someone points out something you've done wrong-

John Gottman 1:25:21 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:22 ... it's so painful if you're insecure-

John Gottman 1:25:25 Right, walking on eggshells.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:26 ... it's like tickling a, yeah, exact- it's like, um, playing with, like, an open wound.

John Gottman 1:25:29 Yeah.

Julie Gottman 1:25:30 It's like you're a walking burn victim.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:32 Yeah (laughs) .

Julie Gottman 1:25:32 You know, the way I like to describe it, um, because I've been there (laughs) -

Steven Bartlett 1:25:37 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 1:25:37 ... I know what that's like, is, you know, the, the Earth, if you take, uh, a picture of the Earth, and the Earth has this very thin crust on it.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:48 Right.

Julie Gottman 1:25:48 And then you go down some layers, and in the center is this boiling hot lava, you know, uh, that burns you to death. Well, somebody says to you, "Why didn't you pay the bills on time?"... and the earth opens up, you fall through that crack and straight down into that hot lava of self-loathing that is agony. Absolute- And you feel like you're getting burned to death. So, you can't allow yourself to step into that crack and say, "Oh, God, you're right. I didn't."

Steven Bartlett 1:26:25 Mm. So you defend?

Julie Gottman 1:26:28 You defend. "Oh, yeah? Well, I'm the one who does all the bill-paying. What are you doing?" You know, it's-

Steven Bartlett 1:26:34 Mm.

Julie Gottman 1:26:34 ... defensiveness.

Steven Bartlett 1:26:35 Well, in that case, it sounds like that's fundamentally linked to some kind of trauma. Because paying the, you didn't pay the bills to, the average person would be, "Yeah, no, no, sorry, my bad."

Julie Gottman 1:26:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:26:43 But if that's linked to maybe, I don't know, your childhood where your, your father or your mother or the bullies on the playground told you that, "You always, you're so forgetful, Steve or Julie."

Julie Gottman 1:26:52 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:26:52 "You're the most forgetful person ever." And then they punched you. (laughs)

Julie Gottman 1:26:56 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:26:56 You could get to, you know, 40-

Julie Gottman 1:26:57 Can be.

Steven Bartlett 1:26:57 Yeah.

Julie Gottman 1:26:58 Yeah. Can be, can be. And then stonewalling, this was one that was so fascinating because you could have, you know, a pair of people sitting just like this, looking perfectly normal. But you notice that one is completely shutting down, not showing anything on their face, in their body, maybe looking away or just glazed, you know, looking, and not saying a word.

Steven Bartlett 1:27:27 Mm.

Julie Gottman 1:27:28 And that's not for seconds, it's for minutes. And what's actually going on, because these guys, you know, John and his colleagues measured physiology, is that they feel so attacked that their heart rates are zooming up above 100 beats a minute, which just sitting here? Not gonna happen.

John Gottman 1:27:48 It's creating cortisol and adrenaline-

Julie Gottman 1:27:50 Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 1:27:51 ... massively. And so they're shutting down.

Julie Gottman 1:27:54 Yeah. It's a terribly, it's going into fight or flight, only you're not facing a saber-toothed tiger. You're facing your partner.

Steven Bartlett 1:28:03 You, you, you said there, Julie, that you could go into that state for minutes or, um, even longer.

Julie Gottman 1:28:08 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:28:08 But I, as you were saying that, I was thinking about my friends' relationship, which kinda started this conversation, and-

Julie Gottman 1:28:13 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:28:13 ... whether they should get back together or not. You were totally right when you said there's clearly a pattern, because the fact that they're getting back together, then breaking up, then getting back together, then breaking up, then breaking up, shows that they're-

Julie Gottman 1:28:22 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:28:22 ... they don't have the tools to resolve whatever issue they keep smashing into.

Julie Gottman 1:28:26 Mm-hmm. Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:28:26 Um, but much of why I think, from what I've heard, or at least a symptom of their relationship is stonewalling, but it, it's not minutes. One of the, one of them-

Julie Gottman 1:28:39 It's days.

Steven Bartlett 1:28:39 ... it's months, I think. I think basically, I only know this because I was shown some text messages, and I looked at the text messages, and I was like, "Oh, my God. There's like ..." Whenever you talk about something that might be a little bit challenging or whatever, or, um, you even ask, "How do you think the relationship's going?" the other partner is like vacant. Like, like vacant, nothing. It's like they're not expressing their needs. They're not saying what they feel.

Julie Gottman 1:29:04 Hm.

Steven Bartlett 1:29:05 They're spiraling in their own mind, and then they're just breaking up with you.

John Gottman 1:29:08 Mm.

Julie Gottman 1:29:09 Wow.

Steven Bartlett 1:29:09 You know, and it's kind of, I don't know whether that's stonewalling-

Julie Gottman 1:29:11 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:29:11 ... but it's also what you were saying about lacking the tools.

Julie Gottman 1:29:13 Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 1:29:13 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 1:29:14 That was at the heart of the relationship is one partner spirals independently, and then without you even knowing it, you thought everything was okay, breaks up with you. To, to give more context, while this is a homosexual relationship- Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:29:26 ... between two men.

Julie Gottman 1:29:27 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:29:28 So, you know, we talked earlier on about the wom- the woman's sometimes the instigator of expression of needs.

Julie Gottman 1:29:32 Yeah. That's right.

Steven Bartlett 1:29:33 It's just-

John Gottman 1:29:34 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 1:29:34 Oh, that's so sad. You know, so it sounds like both of them have terrible difficulty making themselves vulnerable to the other and saying what they feel. And it may be that, uh, when the, if they tried that early on in the relationship, the other one said something very negative to them back that felt punishing in terms of expressing their emotion. And so they made a choice, "Oh, God, I can't make myself vulnerable. I'm gonna get hurt if I do that." So they shut down.

Steven Bartlett 1:30:15 Uh, but this point about, um, men not being very good at expressing their feelings, do we even... You know, with that in mind, and with the knowledge that expression of feelings are good for building connection-

Julie Gottman 1:30:25 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:30:27 ... how come homosexual relationships with men work? And I don't know, is there any data to show that they, (laughs) they last less longer than a relationship where a woman is, um, stereotypically more likely to, you know, talk about the, the challenges and the issues and bridge the connection?

Julie Gottman 1:30:43 Hm.

Steven Bartlett 1:30:44 Someone's gotta have done the research on this subject. (laughs)

John Gottman 1:30:46 Well, we've, you know-

Julie Gottman 1:30:47 We did.

John Gottman 1:30:47 ... we, we've studied gay and lesbian couples and compared them to heterosexual couples as well. And ge-

Julie Gottman 1:30:53 For 12 years, a lot of it.

John Gottman 1:30:54 ... gen- gener- generally, they are less defensive. Uh, they have a better sense of humor, and they're, uh, they're much, much more gentle in the way they bring up an issue with one another.

Steven Bartlett 1:31:07 Men or women in those homosexual relationships?

John Gottman 1:31:09 Men and women, together. Gay men and lesbians are better than heterosexuals. And they're much less possessive and domineering-

Steven Bartlett 1:31:19 Mm-hmm.

John Gottman 1:31:20 ... as well. Um, much more of a sense of equality in their relationships.

Julie Gottman 1:31:25 Well, especially, you know, pre... Well-

Steven Bartlett 1:31:28 So do we... (laughs)

Julie Gottman 1:31:29 Wait, pause. Pre-AIDS, you know, men gave each other much more autonomy to have sex outside the relationship, right?

Steven Bartlett 1:31:40 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 1:31:40 But then AIDS kicked in, and a lot of that shut down. Now it's opening up again. So, they're giving themselves sexual freedom as long as there isn't a lot of emotional connection and falling in love-

Steven Bartlett 1:31:55 Mm-hmm.

Julie Gottman 1:31:55 ... with a third party. Women don't do that nearly as much. They're, uh...... they tend to feel very insecure around polygamy, let's say, or polyamory. Uh, and so they really are