The Diary of a CEOThe Happiness Expert That Made 51 Million People Happier: Mo Gawdat | E101
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,194 words- 0:00 – 5:54
Intro
- MGMo Gawdat
... learn from your swipes on Instagram. Your brain does what you tell it to do. You're the boss. Tell it. AI is going to be a billion times smarter than humans. I would take data points and measurements and... on topics like happiness. Gratitude is the ultimate solution to the happiness equation.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mo Gawdat, he is an expert on the topic of happiness. If everyone in the world listened to this podcast episode, the world would be a drastically better place.
- MGMo Gawdat
When I was chief business officer of Google X, through that network, I've connected with the wisest people on the planet. We have an app coming out in Christmas that is aiming to get to the point where we know exactly why you're unhappy. Literally the simplest surgical operation not known to humankind, but five mistakes happened, and four hours later, Ali was gone. There's nothing I can do to bring him back, but I can make his essence alive. My intention shifted from spending the rest of my life in grief to actually writing what he taught me so that I can share it with the world.
- NANarrator
(Instrumental music)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mo Gawdat. You know, I've done this podcast for the last 12 months every week, and there's one name which my guests, the people that sit in front of me, the successful athletes, entrepreneurs, business people from all walks of life and just generally ambitious, successful people kept saying, and it was Mo's name. You know, I hype up these episodes a lot, but I've never said this. This was my favorite podcast of all time, because of the lasting value that I know it will have on my life. I think I cried twice in this podcast episode. Who is Mo? He's a genius business person, so smart in fact that Google made him the head of Google X, which was their special projects division where they do the most crazy, insane things from flying cars to machine learning, anything a genius would be capable of doing. He's also a remarkable entrepreneur. But the thing that will bring the most value to you in this episode if you listen to it will be what he says about happiness, and some of the things he says today have just created these, like, personal revelations in my head where I genuinely feel that I have to go, g- go and sit down in a room alone and think about them for the next couple of weeks, genuinely life-changing, and you've never heard me this enthusiastic on the podcast. So if you're ever gonna trust me with an episode, trust me on this one. Are you ready? I hope you are. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.
- NANarrator
(Instrumental music)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mo, I guess my first question for you is, um, because, you know, when I look at the, the things that you write about, the topics, um, you speak about so often, the businesses you've built, the areas of interests you have, and I see that they're so diverse, and also they're very smart, shall I say.
- MGMo Gawdat
Oh, thank you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
My, my question is, what- what were those, um, early personal but also early professional experiences that have shaped the way you see and analyze the world? What is that context that we need to know about you?
- MGMo Gawdat
Uh... I- I- I think the thing that maybe shapes me most is that I was born in the East, raised in the East with the culture of the East, and educated in the West and worked in the West with the culture of the West. And, um, in a very unusual way, I didn't judge either. I think there is so much, uh, value to learn in each of them, but they're almost exact opposites, and, and to be able to embrace both of them maybe has allowed me to translate concepts that are normally spoken about on one more than the other, uh, to the other. So, so most of my work really is, uh, uh, highly dependent on my early, uh, math, uh, you know, love of mathematics, love of physics. I'm, I'm a very serious geek. I don't say that in public because it affects my... (laughs) I just said it. It affects my CEO job. But I'm really geeky, like, to, to the point that I was writing codes until a few years ago. But I take all of that language of very, being very organized, very systemic, almost, you know, engineered and everything, and I try to explain concepts like spirituality, like love, like humanity, humanity's position in the modern age and so on and so forth. And I, and I explain them in slightly unusual ways. You know, I use, for example, quantum physics and theory of relativity to try and explain death. Um, I use mathematics and theory of probability to qu- to, to discuss the question of the presence of a, a divine being and so on and so forth. And I think the thing is I have a brain defect somewhere that basically does not stop me from addressing crazy ideas. So I, I normally, I'm writing six books at the same time, and, and-
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's crazy.
- MGMo Gawdat
... and I love it. I love it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wow.
- MGMo Gawdat
I don't write for, for you sadly. I, I, I hate to say this. I write for me. So I get inspired by a topic, and then I build a structure. Literally like we write subroutines in software, I write the entire, you know, um, um, flowchart, if you want, of the book and then leave it on my desktop and then start to work on it sometimes for a year, sometimes for two years. And, and eventually something comes out that informs me and enriches me and at the same time, it, you know, interests people.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You write for you?
- MGMo Gawdat
Oh, absolutely.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So why did you write a book about happiness?
- MGMo Gawdat
That's the most selfish thing I've ever done in my life. I mean, if- if you know, uh, my story was, um... So I, I, I was very successful at a very young age. So unusual. I mean, I'm born
- 5:54 – 13:06
Why did you write a book about happiness?
- MGMo Gawdat
and raised in Egypt, educated in public school, public university in Egypt. So my biggest dream was I was going to become sales manager in IBM Egypt. That was my biggest dream. And look at what happened. I mean, I, I went through-... beyond my wildest expectations. Chief business officer of Google X is literally the second-best job on the planet, okay? And- and- and, you know, I- I, uh, I had all of this, you know, that people dream of at a very young age. At 29, I had, uh, you know, the big villa with the swimming pool, uh, wi- with, you know, all of the money, all of the suits, all of the ru- luxury cars. Uh, from 25 when I had nothing to 29 when I had everything, I had the most wonderful woman in my life, beautiful, wise, sensitive, loving, who gave me two wonderful kids, and I was clinically depressed. And- and- and it's not an unusual story, uh, where- where we keep chasing all of those things. I mean, my- my luck was that I hit my middle-age crisis at 29 when I fi- achieved everything they told me I was supposed to achieve and couldn't find happiness. And so, I ended up in a place where I started to s- research the topic, uh, just like I would anything else and I couldn't get a word. I- I just couldn't get it. Uh, you know, they told me to meditate. My engineering mind was like, "Tell me why. Explain something to me. Tell me why it works," right? Uh, you know, if y- if they told me to say, "Om," I would get really angry. I still don't say om, right? But- but the idea is, uh, is my brain wouldn't get it and instead of me rejecting that, I started to look at those topics as an engineer. So, I would start to do literally, you know, like the scientific method, I would- I would take data points and- and measurements and try to do fitting lines and curves and charts on topics like happiness. And, uh- uh, you know, it started to work for me. So four years in, I started to really become a little better, and I would go back to my wonderful son, Ali, uh, who was born a tiny little Zen monk. He- he knew those things instinctively. And even as a young child, you know, age eight, I think was when I started to discuss those things with him, he would listen there and ask me a couple of questions clearly to entertain me, and then basically say, "Well done, Papa. This is amazing. You could have just asked me." Okay?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
And then he would literally explain it to me from the heart, so how the heart feels it. I- I would get how the left brain sees it and he would get how the heart feels it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Your son at eight- at eight.
- MGMo Gawdat
He was so wise, Stephen. He was so wise. Ali, when he was 16, uh, I promise you, my friends will tell you, I would actually... I- I publicly announced when I grow older I want to be like Ali. He was a very unusual being. And- and he, uh, he- he spoke very little. Very, very, very little. He was either laughing all the time and being silly and goofy, or when you asked him a- a serious question, he would stay silent and then speak eight words. Okay? And those eight words would literally reshape your world. Okay? And I noticed that at a very young age, uh, for him. And so I started to consult with him on a lot of topics, uh, on a lot of topics. And on happiness specifically, together we ended up with a model that worked. Uh, you know, we had the happiness equation, we had the happiness model, and it worked. And it worked so well that when we lost him sadly, uh, when he was 21, my intention shifted from spending the rest of my life in grief to actually writing what he taught me so that I can share it with the world. And that basically determined the next life for me after the life of the executive and the chief business officer and the s- you know, stock options and the luxury and the cars. That second life really was the result of his departure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And during- during that period, the- the inspiration that inspired you to write the book, uh, at the very beginning and go on that journey to really find the answer to happiness, you said you were clinically depressed.
- MGMo Gawdat
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Now for people that don't know what that means practically, can you give a description?
- MGMo Gawdat
Noth- no- nothing would make me happy. And you can- you can literally, uh... You know, as, uh, as I... I interviewed Ruby Wax on my, uh, on my podcast on Slo-Mo, and Ruby was known for her sometimes, you know, depression and sometimes teaching. And she would describe it as they cut your head off and fill you with concrete when you're depressed. You're unable to do anything, you're unable to enjoy anything, you're unable to engage, right? And it comes in- in different layers. But- but for me, the- the challenge was, I was so successful. I was so successful. I literally could print money on demand. I mean, there were times when my f- my- uh, my wife would say, "Can we change the car?" And I would say, "So what would you like?" And she would say this and I would say, "Okay, wait until Wednesday." And I would be on the stock market, uh, you know, trading for a few days and making money. Right? It was j- uh, it was so crazy because of my math skills before the age of machine trading was really as- as entrenched as it- as it is today, I could make money on demand. And yet, I poured that money on my life and I couldn't find happiness. Okay? I, you know... And- and that really shakes you because now you can get the vacations they're tal- talking about, you can wear what they're... uh, they told you is gonna make you happy, you can buy the things that they told you are go- is gonna make you happy but nothing's making you happy. And then it started to reflect on my family. And I remember vividly the turning point was a Saturday morning when, you know, my- my daughter... A- Ali, my son, was that little Zen monk. Uh, my daughter is life he- uh, life itself. She truly is pure joy. Okay? And she was, uh, you know... It was a Saturday morning, she's jumping up and down in joy saying, "Ah, Mommy said we're gonna go there. Can we stop and get, you know, ice cream on the way? Can we do that?" And she's so happy. And I was doing whatever busy people do, reading an email or whatever crap. And- and basically I looked at her slowly raising my head in grumpiness and said, "Can we please be serious for a minute?" Okay? What serious? She was five. And I could see with my own eyes as my...... daughter's, beautiful daughter's heart broke. Okay. And I think to me, that was basically the moment where I said, "I can't live with this person anymore. I can't live with me." And when- when you see that, you make that choice. And sadly, most people who are successful, like your audiences, actually wait until that moment happens when- when they're old, when they've gone to the point where the good days have passed, the days where you could have actually built that connection with your family or- or with, you know, enjoyed w- your life a little more are behind you and then they wake up. I was so lucky that I woke up when I was 29.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And so you have this idea, as you say there, to- to write this book and to answer this question that has become so relevant and important to answer in your life. And as you're on that journey and- and consulting with, with Ali, Ali passes.
- MGMo Gawdat
Yes. No, so Ali, Ali left after he trained
- 13:06 – 28:20
The passing of your son Ali
- MGMo Gawdat
me well enough. So, uh, uh, it's really interesting. I mean, he- he, um ... Uh, uh, so I- I started my research maybe when he was six or s- yeah, he was six, seven, uh, and finished when he was 18, 19. And I- you couldn't dent my happiness then. I was- I was the example of happiness. I mean, I'm a Middle Eastern and at the time, I used to work at Microsoft. Uh, at least through that journey, I used to work at Microsoft and Microsoft's office was in Seattle. So I would fly every month at- for a week to Seattle, uh, from Dubai to JFK, and then from JFK to- to Washington. And every time I landed in JFK, I got that random security check where they give me a red envelope and take me to Homeland Security. It was really not the kindest of treatment if you want. With a stupid smile on my face. Like I flew 12 hours, then I sto- st- stood in line for an hour and a bit and then they gave me that envelope and there is a guard walking next to me now assuming I'm a criminal until proven otherwise and they sit me in that room and I have that stupid smile on my face. Nothing could dent my happiness. Okay? I have beautiful thoughts inside me, I have compassion for every one of those officers, you know, that they're just doing their job and of course they're worried about their country and it's really weird. And to the point that I did this 37 times in a row, okay? And to the point that I would walk into the Homeland Security office and the officers behind the counter would go like, "Mr. Gates is back." Okay? They know I'm the guy from Microsoft, I've been there last month. I would walk to the counter and they say, "Answer the same 10 questions you, uh, we asked you last time." So I would say, "This is my name, this is my mother's name, this is my ..." Right? And go through them one by one without a dent in my happiness. But then life tests you. So- so, uh, and- and by the way, I- I mean, uh, we can talk about this, but of course I f- you can feel unhappy, but I found a way to always come back to happiness if you want. Um, and then t- life tests you, and I think life nudges you. It- it- it seems that Solve For Happy needed to be written. Okay? And I had the notes for it in 2011, but hey, chief business officer of Google X, busy, busy, busy, busy, and I kept delaying it and delaying it and delaying it until Ali basically came to visit us in, uh, in Dubai, 2014, and he was, um, diagnosed with a very simple, um, appendix inflammation. And yeah, you know, it's literally the simplest surgical operation not- known to humankind. It's literally a four, five minute thing. But five mistakes happened, five in a row. Every one is prev- every one of them was preventable, every one of them was fixable, but five in a row fixed wrong and four hours later, Ali was gone. Uh, y- yeah, I mean, eh, it's easy to understand how it feels. Eh, even today, seven years later, losing a child is- is just the hardest thing ever. Uh, at least for me, it's the hardest thing ever. Li- you know, if life had taken all my money and all what I've achieved and, you know, made me homeless, it would have probably felt less painful than losing him. But- but, uh, but m- our reaction was very- very unusual. I- instead of trying to, you know, f- fight with life, uh, I simply said, "Okay, you know, he's gone. I- there's nothing I can do to bring him back, but I can make his essence alive. I can keep his essence in this world." And his essence to me was what he taught me, he saved my life with what he taught me about happiness. And so I sat down to write first time that I really write in English as m- English is not my first language. I wrote for four and a half months straight. And, you know, if- if you've read The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho, you know, when you- when you know your life's purpose, the universe conspires to make it happen. I just can't tell you what happened since then. I mean, every part of the universe is just pushing for this mission to s- to work. You know, from finding my agent at a time where he was actually not feeling great about his life, so he kept saying, "Can you send me another chapter? Can you send me another chapter?" Until I sent the whole book saying, "Well, what's he going to do with this?" And then literally we meet and he in- basically says, "Can I please represent you?" We go out, meet 17 publishers within a week in the- in- in New York, in the- in the capital of publishing. And then things roll and roll and roll to the point that I came here in the UK, uh, aft- literally a week after the- the publication of Solve For Happy and I had that interview, very famous, with Channel 4 News, which within three days was the highest watched news clip on the history of Channel N- uh, Channel 4, to the point that the CEO is starting to wonder like, "I've been bot- prot- broadcasting violence and war for the, you know, last, I don't know how many years, and my highest watched clip," at the time it was 37 million views, "is about happiness." Okay? Which obviously is understandable. It's- it's the pandemic of our time. Th- within three days after that, we were watched 87 million times.... okay? More than double the highest. Uh, and- and the mo- the movement was starting, the One Billion Happy movement was starting. Basically, I think it was a very strong, uh, uh, confirmation to the world that this is something the world needs. And you can actually feel today that there is a shift, not because of me only, but be- that there are so many people coming into this. Uh, there is a big shift now between employee satisfaction and employee happiness, between, you know, "Let's just work on mental health," and, "Actually let's work on happiness," and so on and so forth. There seem- it seems that the world is getting it. That- that, you know, we're not supposed to be grinding ourself, uh, and giving away our lives, uh, for things that we think are gonna make us happy. We might as well be happy and get everything as a result, because we can then be successful, we can be engaged, we can be lovable, we can be, you know, supported and so on and so forth.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's just remarkable, in my mind, that you can lose the most important thing to you, as you've described it, in your life, your son, to human error, and still not fall into resentment or bitterness or-
- MGMo Gawdat
What would it do?
- SBSteven Bartlett
... regret. Hmm.
- MGMo Gawdat
What would it do? I mean, of course. I- I mean, I took steps to make sure that things are corrected so that no one else gets hurt, right? Uh, but what would it do? I mean, I was very prominent at the time. When Ali died, uh, I was Chief Business Officer of Google X but I was still between Dubai and California, so I spent half of my time in Dubai. And I- it was after seven years of being Vice President of Emerging Markets for Google, so I had opened half of Google's offices globally, I was very, you know, well-connected to the business leaders and government leaders in Dubai. And so when Ali died, uh, we got a call from the top o- of the Ministry of Health saying, "We heard what happened. I'm so sorry, Mo. Uh, would you mind if we perform an autopsy on Ali's body to get to the to- to the bottom of this?" So I looked at his mother sitting next to me, most wonderful woman on the planet with her eyes teary and I said, "Nibal, would you mind if they do that?" And she raised his head and said, "Would it bring Ali back?" And that one sentence anchored us in the truth. Okay? You see, the problem with grief is that the cycle of grief takes you five steps, huh, and the- and the very last step is acceptance. Okay? And that step of acceptance could take you 70 years sometimes. For us, the truth was glaringly obvious four hours later, "There's nothing you can do to bring him back. This is it." And- and the finality of death is so corrective of all of our human hi- illusions, huh? "This is it, he's not coming back. So what can you do now?" And my brain started to attack me, my brain started to say, "You should've..." H- you know, the one thought for the first, uh, few days was, "You should have driven him to another hospital. You should have driven him..." A- until I said to my- to my- to my brain, like, "Okay, I- I wish I could go back and drive him to another hospital. I can't. So can you please bring me a thought I can act upon?" Okay? And so I had a couple of days of silence and then, then my wonderful daughter comes to me, they were very, very close and she said, "Papa, Ali, uh, had a dream a couple of weeks ago and he called and told me about it. Hmm? Uh, and I think it's very relevant, you need to know." Okay? And I said, "What baby?" And he said- and she said, "He dreamt he was everywhere and part of everyone. And that he- it felt so amazing that he didn't want to be back in his body." And when she told me, I still tear up thinking about it today, when she told me this, my blurry brain could only listen to, "This is my master giving me my target." That's the only thing I heard. It's like, "Make me everywhere and part of everyone." That's what I heard. And, oh, at the time, I was head of Google. I- I understood billions. I knew how to get a message to billions of people, so what did I do? I literally said out loud, "Consider it done. It's done." Okay? And I told you, when I wrote Solve for Happy, it was the most selfish thing you can ever do. I wanted the essence of my son to- to- to live on. And so I basically wrote it with the intention of, "Okay, I'm gonna make him everywhere and part of everyone. I'm just gonna spread this beautiful essence to 10 million people." And then, I don't know, 70 years later through six degrees of separation, a tiny bit of him will be everywhere and part of everyone. That was my blurry brain. But maybe it was also life's way of saying, "Share something, do something useful." Enough- enough building phones and building, you know, faster engines and, you know, maybe the world needs something different. Maybe- maybe share something that actually is needed by humanity.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is that where that ten billion- million number came from?
- MGMo Gawdat
Ten million was the original target, yeah. Ten Million Happy was- and at the time it felt crazy that we were shooting for 10 million, but again, with things like Channel 4 alone-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- MGMo Gawdat
I think by week eight we had reached 137 million people.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Crazy.
- MGMo Gawdat
Okay? But we don't measure those, by the way, we don't measure-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- MGMo Gawdat
... just the views. We- we measure how many people took action, uh, in terms of, uh, of receiving the message. So it's- it's basically One Billion Happy today is three steps. Step one is we're gonna give you- send you a message that wakes you up, that tells you happiness is your birthright and it's highly attainable. It follows like an equation. Okay? So you can actually, uh, do certain things and you will be happier. Right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- MGMo Gawdat
The second- o- once you- you get that message, that's not enough. Hmm? We- we count you as one of billion happy if you take one of two actions afterwards. Either you invest in your own happy- happiness, right? So you invest in your own happiness by going to another piece of content, shifting to, you know, read a book or watch another video or e- we can see that you're investing in your happiness. Asking me a question, getting in touch, whatever that is. Or you share happiness forward.Okay. And the entire Ponzi scheme, if you want, of One Billion Happy is built on the idea of, we hope that as a small team, uh, within hopefully the next 10, 12 years, uh, we will have, you know, cultivated a million champions that will make a billion people happy as their own mission. And then we will get completely forgotten, okay? Because it's- the only way for it to succeed, is that it'm not counting on, you know, one person or one face or one team, because the team will get dismantled and I'm, you know, going to disappear and it has to be a movement, right? And so the whole movement is on that pillar number three. Pillar number three is, you got a message of happiness, you, you know, it might have touched you, can you share it to two people and ask them to share it to two people and ask them to share it to two people? Simple exponential curve, simple po-Ponzi scheme really, a positive Ponzi scheme. Okay. And it's been working. We, we think we're at 51 million, which is not the biggest number, but you're not, you understand the, the law of accelerating returns.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
Right? So if it's now, you know, if we can do this again in four years and then that becomes 100 million and then the 100 becomes 200 and so on, you know, who knows? Who knows? We may get there.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And the, and the mission is, I guess, the banner of the mission is Solve For Happy, right? Is that -
- MGMo Gawdat
No, no, no, no, no.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... not even, right?
- MGMo Gawdat
So, no, actually not at all. So, bo-books don't go to millions. That's the truth of books. Okay.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MGMo Gawdat
The books allow me the opportunity to sit with you-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
... and, and spread this to your audience.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MGMo Gawdat
Okay. Uh, but, but the mission is much bigger now. So the pillars of the mission are, there is a tremendous amount of content, uh, that I put out there. I mean, if you search for my name on Google, you'll have hundreds of hours of videos. I'm tireless.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I did, yeah. (laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
Uh, and yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I watched several hours. (laughs)
- 28:20 – 36:13
What is the cause of unhappiness
- SBSteven Bartlett
able to know what's causing this-
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... lack of, uh ...
- MGMo Gawdat
A- a- allow me a bit of time to explain it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Sure.
- MGMo Gawdat
Because it, it's simple when we get it, but it's not simple to get to it. So, so happiness is very predictable. Okay. If you look back at any point in your life where you ever felt happy, there is one commonality across all of those moments that can actually be doc- be documented in a mathematical equation. Okay. You've never felt happy because of a specific event in your life. Okay. Uh, t- m- take for example rain.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
Rain doesn't make you happy or unhappy. There is no inherent value of happiness in rain. Okay. Uh, uh, rain makes you happy when you wanna water your plants and it makes you unhappy when you wanna sunbathe, right? And so it's not just the event rain, it's the comparison between the event and an expectation in your mind of how life should be. Okay. If you're worried about your plants, then life should be generous to me and get me rain so I can water the plants. And if life does that, then life meets your expectations and you're happy. Okay. And so happiness in that sense becomes equal to or greater than, so it's really mathematics, the, your perception of the events of your life minus your expectations of how life should be. Okay. And apply that to anything. Apply that to anything. So, you know, my favorite example is nature. Hmm. We're all happy in nature. Why are we all happy in nature? I mean, you go out there and there are, uh, ants and there are flies and, you know, trees are crooked and there are, you know, shrubs everywhere and bushes and it's just really not that hedged and organized. But that's what we expect. So, you know, nature's chaos is what we expect nature to be. And so we feel happy. You know, nobody's ever sits in front of the ocean and says, "I like the view, but please mute the sound." Okay. You just take it, you know, it's, it's the monotonous sound and the view and the wind and, and the sun and the whole experience, right? Uh, and because of that, hmm, uh, happiness becomes very different than what was defined to us.Okay? What was defined to us is that happiness is found in a, uh, um, a gathering at the pub or a party or a, you know, an activity or some kind of pleasure or fun or elation or whatever that is. That's not at all true. These I, I call these the state of escape. Okay? Happiness as per the definition of the happiness equation is events equal to or beating expectations, life going my way. Okay? And so basically happiness is that calm and peacefulness you feel when you're okay with life as it is. It doesn't really matter what life is. Okay? What matters is that you can be okay with it. Right? So, so you take, you know, the, uh, uh, any example, huh? If your boss is annoying, hmm, and your expectation is, yeah, bosses are annoying, this is what life is about, they become bosses because they're annoying.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
Right? And, and so if, if that's your expectation, you're gonna look at it and go like, "Yeah, I need to learn the skill of managing annoying bosses." Okay? And if that's the case, then you're not gonna be upset about it. Hmm. Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, similarly anything else, huh, if you look at it then it's not just the event. Hmm. It's your perception of the event, so you have a, a, a something to influence.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MGMo Gawdat
It's not just the event, huh. Your partner might say something hurtful on Friday at 4:00 PM. That's the event. My partner said something hurtful. At Sunday morning you tell yourself, "He or she doesn't love me anymore." Okay? That's your perception of the event. That's not actually the event. The event is something hurtful was said. But your perception of the event is your work, is your, is your brain adding color to it. And then you compare that to your expectations. Right? You compare my boss is annoying to my boss shouldn't be annoying. Where did you get that from? Right? So we blur the happiness equation, we break the happiness equation because of what I call the six and seven. Okay? Six grand illusions and seven blind spots. Hmm. Which are ... The six grand illusions are basically, uh, call them pathways, uh, that the modern world teaches us to navigate the modern world that are illusions, are not true. Okay? Uh, take for example control. Everyone knows that to succeed in the modern world you have to learn to control certain events. Right? So you start to believe that the way to succeed in life is to control everything, but the truth is even if you go down to the basics of physics that we never are in control, that, that the absolute design of nature itself, of the universe itself is entropy and chaos. Right? That's the actual design. And so if you try to control it, you're bound to be disappointed. A lot of events are gonna miss your expectations. Okay? And yes, I'm not saying don't control anything at all, but start to understand that you're ha- you're gonna be, uh, selective because you have a finite amount of effort. And by the way, even if you're selective and you, you try to control everything, sometimes things will fall out of control. Okay? And that should be your expectation. Once you get that right, that was one, that was my biggest illusion. Okay? I am a mathematician, I am a software developer, I am a, uh, uh, uh, physicist, I am an engineer, and I am a senior executive. It doesn't get worse than that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
Okay? I'm like the worst, absolute the worst. Huh? I used to give my wonderful wife ... I swear to you, Stephen, uh, d- don't judge me. I used to give her a spreadsheet that would tell her when to wash the colors and when to wash the whites based on our average consumption as a, as a family to save the environment. And poor Nibel would, would actually smile at me and say, "Sure, baby. I will use this." (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
Right? (laughs) Of course, and ignores the hell out of me because that's how crazy you can be when it comes to control. Now, these are the illusions. If you live your life through the illusion of control, good luck finding happiness. So six grand illusions. The illusion of, uh, of thought, the illusion of, the illusion of self, the illusion of, uh, knowledge, the illusion of time, control, and fear. Okay? Now, that's one side, and that disrupts your, your entire view of what to expect from life, because you're expecting life to behave through a length of, a len- a length of an illusion. The other side of it is what I call seven blind spots. Okay? And the seven blind spots are not really defects in your brain. As a matter of fact, they are the very design of your brain. Okay? Your brain is designed to tell you what's wrong. Okay? It's not designed to, you know, if a tiger shows up right here now, my brain has no u- use whatsoever in telling me, "Oh my God, look how majestic that animal is." Right? Yeah, it's a beautiful animal, but my brain will say, "We're gonna die." Okay? And we're gonna die is the idea that basically makes our, uh, uh, uh, our brain constantly look for what's wrong, blur the events of life. Huh? You ask a mother, hmm, and, and she will say, "Oh, my daughter's been sick all winter." No, she just had two episodes of flu three days each. But to the, to the caring m- heart of a mother, that needs to be exaggerated to ... The exaggeration is one of the blind spots. Hmm. Your, your brain is trying to get you to take action, so it pushes you. Hmm. It pushes you by exaggerating the event a little bit so that you jump in and take action. And accordingly the event you're comparing to, you're comparing the wrong event to the wrong expectation and the happiness equation falls apart.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Under all of this, you're inferring something which I think will annoy a lot of people and that is that happiness is a choice.
- MGMo Gawdat
Oh, totally. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that you, you, you can choose to be happy.
- MGMo Gawdat
Totally.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that if you're unhappy, and really for many circumstances in our life day-to-day in work and love and relationships,
- 36:13 – 49:40
Is happiness a choice?
- SBSteven Bartlett
personal responsibility is the, is the answer. And, and-
- MGMo Gawdat
It's entirely on you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and a lack thereof is the cause.
- MGMo Gawdat
Absolutely. You know what you just did? You've just lost us 80, uh, 8% of the audience.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I know. Do you know why I know?
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Because I did a tweet one day about this.
- MGMo Gawdat
Mm. Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And, uh, what my tweet was, um ...There's like a k- I guess, a mental model. But there's a reframing that can- I think has brought me happiness, which is when something happens to me, I, I used to, like many people, say, "X thing that happened has pissed me off."
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And just by changing that sentence to, "I've pissed myself off because of X thing-"
- MGMo Gawdat
Absolutely.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I tweeted that. I, and I s- I was like, "Try it. Just, like, reframe it and take res- personal responsibility for how you're feeling." And in the comment section, everyone was like, "Nope."
- MGMo Gawdat
Yep.
- SBSteven Bartlett
People don't like the idea that they-
- MGMo Gawdat
They respond.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... have control over their emotional responses.
- MGMo Gawdat
Absolutely. So when I- when I wrote Solve- when I wrote- when I write books in general, I write them- I write them like software. So I issue a beta version, okay, and I get 270 people. I don't know why 270, but-
- SBSteven Bartlett
I ha- that is fascinating.
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah, I get 270 people to read it, uh, on Google Docs. So I give them editor, uh, privileges so they- I can actually edit the text, right? And then something fascinating happens. They, they edit the text and then others edit what they edited, okay? And there is a conversation happening and basically it takes the book to its pe- best possible version if you want. Uh, in Solve for Happy, I had, uh, a sentence on page 11 that basically said exactly what you said, "Happiness is a choice." Okay? And at that page, I lost 8% of the readers. Okay? And, you know, I looked into the information that they gave me about themselves, the early readers, and the ei- most of the 8% that left were already in depression. Okay? And to tell someone, uh, "It's your responsibility to get yourself out of this horrible place that you're in," is quite disturbing because we like the idea of saying, "No, no, hold on. No, no, it's not me. Life is treating me really badly. That's why I'm not happy, okay? I can't do a thos- anything about it. Life took my son, you know? I w- life took my son, I have the right to be unhappy." Yes, life took your son, that's true, and you have the right to be unhappy, but you're never gonna get out of unhappiness if you wait for life to bring him back or you wait for life to correct its action. Okay? The only way you can come out of unhappiness is if you choose and say, "Okay, it's gonna be a long journey, it's gonna take a lot of time, okay? And I'm gonna try and try and try, but I'll get there." And, and neuroplasticity proves that. Neuroplasticity basically tells you that if you just run a happiness kind of activity once a day, every day your brain will be better at it. And, and I mean, please don't get me wrong, but what do most of us do every day? We watch negative news, we swipe on toxic positivity and we, we're just drowning ourselves in negativity and then what happens? Hmm? What happens is we become really good at being negative. We become really good at finding what's wrong with life, become very good at, you know, ge- getting pissed off with the prime minister, right? Because it's an activity we do on daily basis, so your brain goes like, "This must be important for her or him. Okay, I'm just gonna make sure I have the neurons aligned to a- around that." And so you're basically- we're basically configuring our brains to be unhappy. I have not watched a horror movie for 15 years.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah. You know what that means?
- SBSteven Bartlett
What?
- MGMo Gawdat
I have not had a nightmare for ha- for 15 years. Not a single one. Okay? I have not watched a violent movie unless really badly recommended to me because it has a me- a good message in it. Hmm? And I watch Mich- Michael McIntyre every, every night before I sleep. I love Michael McIntyre. Who's gonna get me to say hi to Michael McIntyre?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
Right? The, the, but, but it's, but, but think about that practice, huh? My brain, before I go to sleep, hmm, is laughing. Is laughing. That's a choice. That's a choice. Hmm? And, and that is the kind of neuroplasticity that we need to shift. You, you know, if you, if you go to the gym and lift weights every day, you're gonna look like a triangle. If you squat every day, you're gonna look like a pear. Okay? The same is happening inside your brain, you just don't see it. If you're constantly watching, you know, news media, right? You're literally building your muscles that are concerned and are, uh, you know, uh, critical and are worried about the world, when in reality most of the time you can't do anything about it. Like, okay, so I'll, I'll give you a very strange example. When I, I was locked down, first lockdown I was in London, second lockdown I was in Canada. Okay? As the lockdown was approaching, I, I stopped watching news after April 2020. Zero news.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(sighs) Yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
Okay? And by the time I was in Montreal, someone texted me and said, "Hey, by the way, did you know we're going to code red tomorrow?" I said, "Yeah, what's code red?" She said, "All restaurants are closed. You wear a mask everywhere." I said, "Good. That's it. That's all the news I needed to know." Really. Okay? People would go like, "No, how come? You need to know the numbers and the statistics and the death rate and the..." No, I don't. Okay? Someone else is doing this. And by the way, if I know it and I don't like it and I don't believe in what they're doing, I'm gonna be locked down anyway. So can I waste my time or actually utilize my time in building a podcast that becomes one of the top half percent of the all, of all podcasts globally? Isn't that a better use of my life than just watching the news and criti- you know, cre- creating that illusion for myself that I can actually influence anything when in reality... So, you know, I, I normally advise people and say, "Look, if you've been following a certain topic for the last two months and have not been able to influence the decision on that topic for the last two months, you're useless. So stop watching that topic. Okay? And s- start choosing topics that you can champion. Okay? One or two, because you're human, you're not, you know, you're not Superman. Find one or two real, you know, purposes that you actually care about and try to learn enough about them, enough depth about them to influence them." That's the way to make the world better. That's the way to make your life better. And yeah, climate change is really something very important, but it's not on my agenda. I, I don't work on climate change. I work on happiness. That's my part of life.... okay? Someone else I trust will be working on climate change, which I believe is as important if not more important, but it's not mine. I don't need to watch everything about it, okay, and concern myself about it all the time. I need to be updated. I need to do my part by, by really changing my habits as a human, but that's it. That's as far as I go.
- SBSteven Bartlett
There's something in there which is clearly a theme and I think three topics we've touched on, the passing of your son. You know, you talked there about COVID, um, and other elements, which is this theme of, like, radical acceptance.
- MGMo Gawdat
Oh, absolutely.
- 49:40 – 55:46
Why my brain is not me
- SBSteven Bartlett
seems to be, you know, not necessarily your best friend and it's sometimes a suggesting that you should do X, Y, and Z which would probably be disrupt- destructive. What you said following that is that you almost like disassociated from it.
- MGMo Gawdat
Totally.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And you... And it was... It wasn't, it wasn't you. You, you were almost describing it as if it was someone else in your head.
- MGMo Gawdat
Absolutely. I call my brain Becky. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You, you call your brain Becky?
- MGMo Gawdat
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Which talks to (both talking)
- MGMo Gawdat
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... me and Becky." So Mo and Becky. Becky is a third party. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Be- Becky is not me. Okay.
- MGMo Gawdat
But so, so think about it, huh. It doesn't take a lot of lo- logic. A- again, it's one of the illusions of the modern world. Hm. The illusions of the modern world basically we glorify thinking so much that we think that the voice inside our heads telling us what to do is us telling us what to do. If it was you telling you what to do, why would it need to talk? And, and I think really you need to think about this. And there has been, uh, uh, uh, you know, s- research in this since the 1920s and Liv Gedof, uh, Gedofsky I think his name. He's a Russian Nobel Prize winner in, uh, the 1920s basically won the, the Nobel Prize because he o- observed that the voice box, uh, when you're... When you have that internal dialogue in your head is moving ever so slightly like, like it does when you speak out loud. Okay? And so MIT proved that. Actually 2007, there was a, uh, a wonderful, uh, MRI study where they put participants in MRI machines, give them word puzzles, and the participant's problem solving areas of the brain would light up for, for as long as it takes to actually solve the problem. And then that would shut down, so no mo- no more problem solving but the participant's still not aware of the, of the answer. And the pro- and the, and the speech association area of the brain would actually light up for up to eight seconds and then you would know the answer. Then the participant would know the answer.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hm.
- MGMo Gawdat
Okay? So literally your brain solves the problem and they... It then takes up to eight seconds to s- to turn it into words to tell it to you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
Your brain is literally talking to you. It's not, "I think therefore I am." It's, "I am therefore my brain thinks." Now, the interesting challenge we have in the modern world is this. N- nobody wakes up in the morning and tells themself, "Uh, I pump blood around my body therefore I am."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
Okay? The biological function of your heart is to pump blood around your body. Okay? Yet we think, "I think therefore I am. I am that voice in my head." Now, you know, s- simply if you realize that this is just a biological organ, okay, and the biological product of your brain is thoughts and the b- and, and the currency of the brain is words because the only building blocks of knowledge you have since you started to speak is words. Okay? And so accordingly what your brain is doing is it's analyzing its, its, you know, its, uh, the world around it and presenting ideas so that you can choose. Now, if you think that those ideas are you telling you what to do, then you're going to obey. Okay? If it says, "Oh, life is miserable," then it must be true. Life must be miserable. But that's not the truth at all. If me and Becky are two different people, I can debate what Becky, Becky's telling me. I can refuse to obey what Becky's telling me to do and I can tell Becky to shut the F up.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
Do you understand that? And I actually do it very often. I'm like, I'm working on something and Becky comes up with an idea, "Oh my, your daughter doesn't love you anymore." I'm like, "Becky, we're going to talk about this at 6:00."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
It's as simple as that, right? And your brain does what you tell it to do. I mean, anyone listening to us, if you tell your brain, "Raise my right hand," your brain is not going to lay, rai- ra- raise your left f- foot. It's just going to obey. Just tell it. You're the boss. Okay? So when your brain poisons you with all of those thoughts, follow the flow chart. "Okay, Becky, vent a little bit then tell me, is this true? Is there something I can do about it? Can we accept it and do something despite its presence?" How difficult is that? And so most happiness practitioners... I interviewed my dear, dear friend Matthieu Ricard on, on Slow Mo. Matthieu Ricard is known as the world's, the world's happiest man. So 63 hours... 63,000 hours of lifetime meditation. Okay? His brain circuitry is literally different than ours. Okay? And, and I asked him and I said, "Matthieu, so do you sometimes get unhappy?" And he laughed and in his funny French accent said, "What are you talking about, Moir? I'm pissed off all the time." Okay? And, and basically all happiness experts will tell you unhappiness is a survival mechanism. It's alerting you. Your brain is saying, "Hey, something is not perfect. Can you please look into this?" Right? The game is not to avoid that. That's actually harmful for you. You wa- you want to be aware of the things that might go wrong. Okay? The game is how quickly do you bounce back to happiness. From that moment where your brain says, "Something is not right," how quickly do I go back to happiness? And I don't brag about this but I say to encourage people, I'm... You know, if I am allowed to teach people about happiness, I need to be the Olympic champion of the sport.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
Okay? So I promise you and I'm not bragging, on average it takes me seven seconds.... from the time my brain suggests that something deserves my happiness, to the time I either dismiss it because it's not true, or decide what I'm going to do about it, or decide to accept it and think what else I'm going to do, is seven seconds. Seven seconds. Okay. Yes, sometimes I get stuck in, you know, maybe three, four times a year, I get stuck in something that takes me, you know, a day to overcome. Hmm? But most of the time, it's a very simple flowchart, it's a very logical process.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And you've had to train yourself to get to that point.
- MGMo Gawdat
Totally. It's- it's neuroplasticity.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- MGMo Gawdat
It is n- go to the gym. Okay. Write the flowchart on a piece of paper, and every time your emotion changes, look at it. Is it true? Can I do something about it? Can I accept it and do something despite its presence? It's really that simple.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And you talk a lot about one of the illusions you said there was time.
- MGMo Gawdat
Oh, I love time.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And the- and the importance of, um, presence.
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah.
- 55:46 – 1:00:15
Time - The importance of being present
- SBSteven Bartlett
much of that is about bringing us to the present moment.
- MGMo Gawdat
Totally. I mean, there are- there are two sides to time that we need to understand. One, you can- one you can easily understand from theory of relativity and- and Einstein's view of spacetime. Anything you know about time is not real. As a matter of fact, nobody has a clue what time is. Okay. Uh, and- and we have to accept this, that the illusion of time in the modern world is because we've managed to, uh, uh, to- to control what we've measured. Okay. We're- we're measuring mechanical movements that sort of hint to time, the- to the passage of time, and we're- we now can show up on time, and, you know, have an interview that we can measure is like an hour and a bit and so on and so forth. But time itself, we don't know. Okay. The- the only understanding we have of time is that we are being propelled forwards through spacetime along the arrow of time. Okay. And that every ti- every slice of spacetime, we're s- we're standing there in that slice, only living here and now. Okay. You've never ever lived yesterday. Do you realize that? When you lived yesterday, it was called today. You're never gonna live tomorrow. When you- when you live tomorrow, it's going to be called today. Okay. It's always right here and right now. And I did a- an interesting analysis in Solve For Happy where I listed down the majority of human emo- emotions, and plotted them across where they are anchored in time and across if they're positive or negative. Okay. So you take an emotion like regret. Hmm? Regret is anchored in the past. It's about something that happened in the past and it's negative. You take something like anxiety. Anxiety is anchored in the future. It's about something that might happen in the future and it's negative. Okay. The majority of negative emotions are anchored in the past and the future. The majority of positive emotions are anchored in the present moment. Okay. If you're- if you're here and now, there's absolutely nothing wrong. I mean, think about it this way. If you're listening to us talk, having this conversation as a- as one of our listeners, hmm, by definition there is no tiger trying to eat you, you know. The act- the reality, hmm, that, you know, which is really shocking, huh, the- the- the reality that you can feel unhappy about something in the past and the future is in itself evidence that now is okay. Because if there was a tiger trying to eat you right now, you wouldn't be thinking about-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
... losing your job in three weeks.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs) Yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
Okay. So the truth is every time, remind yourself that the fact that I'm thinking about past and future is itself evidence that now is fine. There is a roof on top of my head. I'm obviously not starving. Okay. You have an electronic device that allows you to listen to us. Uh, life is okay.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's so crazy. I've never actually thought about that idea of, uh, pr- pr- practically of what you just said then, of that the person listening to this now focusing on the sound of my voice is not actually unhappy now.
- MGMo Gawdat
Absolutely not.
- SBSteven Bartlett
They're not. When they stop listening to it, they might- their thoughts might descend into unhappiness, past, future, regret, whatever, but as they're listening to this, they're not actually in the state of unhappiness. They have to stop listening and stop engaging to-
- MGMo Gawdat
And think about something else.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... create room ... Yeah, to create space for that.
- MGMo Gawdat
Re- remember Inception, the movie?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah. The beginning of Inception, the question was, "What is the most, uh, deadly parasite or whatever?" I don't remember.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MGMo Gawdat
And he said, "It's an idea." An idea. You have never... There is nothing in your life that has the power to make you unhappy until you turn it into a thought, a negative thought, and turn it into your head and torture yourself with it. Simple as that. Okay. If you're locked down and you're at home and you have food and you have shelter and you're not sick- sick, hmm, and hopefully none of your family and loved ones is sick, okay, the only way you can get yourself to be unhappy is to say, "I don't like this. I want life to be different." Right? And that's not gonna change life interestingly, that thought, right, but it's gonna change you and make you miserable. It's the only way you can make yourself unhappy.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You just lost another 8% of our listeners. (laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
(laughs) Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, you have a-
- MGMo Gawdat
They'll come back.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Yeah. Hopefully we'll get 8% more somewhere else. You have a tattoo on your back.
- MGMo Gawdat
I don't. Ali did.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, you don't. Oh, Ali did.
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Was it, Ali, about, um... Oh yeah, the gravity of the- the battle.
- MGMo Gawdat
The gravity of the battle means-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Could you- could you- could you explain that to me? I found that really f- amazing.
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah, it was amazing. It's the last thing he told me. Can you believe that? So Ali, um,
- 1:00:15 – 1:02:53
The last thing Ali told me
- MGMo Gawdat
Ali, uh, had a tattoo on his back that read, "The gravity of the battle means nothing to those at peace." Okay. And you would wonder why. Why? Because he s- you know, he lived a life of ease and luxury in general. I mean, even though he always forced himself to go to the... I mean, he had those journeys where he would go and literally, uh, walk across the villages of America with no money just to live the life of the people-... the real people, if you want, he would go to. You know, it was very unusual. Anyway, uh, yeah-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Awesome.
- MGMo Gawdat
... his, his ta- tattoo said, "The gravity of the battle means nothing to those at peace." And it was the very last thing he told me because basically he had... He was wearing those scrubs and you know how the scrubs are open at the back. And he was lying on, on the operating table and then they were fixing something so he, he had to sit up. And I could read the, the, the tattoo. It was the very last thing he told me before he went into the operating room. And yeah, it's quite interesting when you really think about it. Of course life is full of battles, hmm? Life is not supposed to be easy, just understand that, huh? Li- uh, think of life as a video game. If it was easy, it would be boring like hell and you would learn nothing at all. Okay? Life is supposed to have a few difficulties on the way. But that... But, but some battles, hmm, are v- are much harder for you than they are for me and many battles don't even shake those who are at peace, right? And, and, and the question is, how do you find that peace? How do you find that feeling of, "It's okay. It's just another battle." It's ju- you know, "I've, I've won every other battle so far and the ones that I've lost were the best thing that ever happened to me." How can you get that str- straight in your mind? Because then suddenly when the, when the next battle approaches, and I promise you there will be a next battle approaching, okay, you take that battle with complete peacefulness. You basically treat it as one more twist on the game controller where you can actually affect your life and make it better and then wait for the next one. And then another twist on the game controller and you can do better. It's a very Stoic approach to life. But it's so spot on when you think about it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I, I was reading something you said which really did make me pause for a second and it said that... You know, correct me where I'm wrong 'cause I don't wanna mischaracterize what you said, but you were saying how basically nobody regrets their battles.
- MGMo Gawdat
Absolutely not.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That basically nobody would reverse history and undo the hard thing they went through and I've r- I sat and reflected
- 1:02:53 – 1:07:52
No one would rewrite their history
- SBSteven Bartlett
and I thought... I thought about all my guests that come here and sit in that chair and all the, the things they've told me about and I thought, "I think you're probably right."
- MGMo Gawdat
Point, .1%.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
So I, I, I, I ran an experiment so, uh, uh, in, in the, in the chapter about control, uh, I, uh, I wrote, uh, something that I call The Eraser Test. The Eraser Test is a thought experiment. At Google X we've developed something that can pinpoint a memory in your life and go back to that event and erase that event from your timeline. Okay? Not the memory of it, the actual event. It will erase the whole thing. And I ran that experiment, uh, with, uh, maybe 12,000 people, uh, where I basically tell them, "First, write down an event that's traumatic in your life. Second, make a choice. Do you want me to erase it or not? Third, be aware that if you erase it, you're gonna erase everything that happened as a result. Every friend that you met as a result, every learning that you had as a result, every resilience that you developed as a result. Would you still erase it?" And 99.99% of people said, "No, I'd keep it." Okay? And these were very traumatic events. It's not just some bully at school, huh? So, you know, I will tell you openly myself, I, I cried on stage in 2019 because someone asked me and said, "Now that you have the eraser test, would you erase the death of Ali?" And I wouldn't. I wouldn't, because I will tell you openly if you know my son, if I had told Ali before he died that his death would make 51 million people happy, he would have said, "Kill me right now." And I don't know. I mean, is it radical acceptance or am I, is my brain telling me this? But most of the time, most of the time the person that you are is the result of those moments. It's not the result of the easy parts.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hm.
- MGMo Gawdat
And you would never erase it. 99.99% of the people would not erase it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Easier said in hindsight, I guess.
- MGMo Gawdat
Of course.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
But then, but then, but then let's, let's extrapolate. If I would not erase 99.99% of the harsh events in my past, why am I thinking that this one is the one that's going to stick?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hm.
- MGMo Gawdat
Think about it. If all of your past harsh experiences were painful then but enormously important now, then maybe this one too will be enormously important. Maybe this is the one that's gonna make you who you are.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It reminds me actually of something you said about death as well because-
- MGMo Gawdat
(clears throat)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... much of the reason I think... Again, correct me if I'm mischaracterizing, but, um, you said that people fear death because of the uncertainty it brings and not knowing what that n- You know, the, the life after death or the, you know-
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... that will look and feel like. And I, I, I reflect on what we're talking about with this eraser and so I think a lot of the reason why I might not choose to erase traumatic events in my life or the worst things that happened to me is because then I don't know which way that kind of... My life would've gone then and it could've gone in a worse direction. So, uh, in this current moment I feel con- uh, somewhat content. Uh, you know, and just b- um, being, um... Talking about the potential, what are those 99% of people that you described-
- MGMo Gawdat
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and there's a chance it could be worse if I use that eraser, so I'm not gonna use that eraser because-
- MGMo Gawdat
Correct.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. Yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
Correct. And, and, and most of the time yes, when you look back in hindsight you start to recognize all of the benefits that came with the trauma-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MGMo Gawdat
... and most of the time, interestingly the way the physics of life work is that the benefits outweigh the trauma.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hm.
- MGMo Gawdat
Interesting.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Quick one. I talk to you guys about Huel a lot so I'm gonna do a quick intermission to tell you about a bit of a change that's happened in the last two months in my life. As you guys know, my favorite Huel product historically has been the Ready to Drink, which is these bottles here. They are nutritionally complete. However, recently since Huel introduced the Huel Protein-This now plays a huge role in my diet. The salted caramel flavored protein from Huel, which is only 105 calories and has 26 vitamins and minerals and 20 grams of protein, um, serves two roles in my life now. First thing I do when I wake up in the morning is I have a glass, and then at nighttime, after I've been to the gym, straight after the gym, I have a glass. It tastes amazing. If you're gonna try it, follow my instructions here. Get a couple of cubes of ice, put it in a blender, put on the salted caramel protein, and it tastes like a delicious smoothie. I've already gone through one tub of this. I'm actually on my second tub, and I've got two more tubs to go before I'm gonna reorder more. But genuinely, the salted caramel flavor, maybe because I have a liking for salted caramel, for me, has been a game changer. (page turns) I wrote a book called Happy Sexy Millionaire.
- MGMo Gawdat
Nice.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Because, uh, because I was, I was an 18-year-old kid that, um, wrong, uh, because of all the insecurities from my childhood, being the only Black kid in an all-white school, parents were broke, but everyone else around me was rich. So it creates this cauldron of, like, insecurity where you wanna be, you wanna fit in, and then you, it leads you
- 1:07:52 – 1:13:48
How do I know which ambitions to follow?
- SBSteven Bartlett
to the, the path of thinking that money and material possessions will be the thing that makes me fit in. So, I go from the path to try and be this happy, sexy millionaire. Of course, 25 years old, Range Rover Sport sat outside, I'm a multimillionaire, big successful business, six-pack, all these things. The day our company IPOs, it's worth 300 million, and just this total anticlimax which almost sent me into like-
- MGMo Gawdat
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I'm like, "Where is the marching band and the confetti?" Like where is it? I, 18-year-old Steve promised me that.
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I, and, and so now I reflect. I look forward and think, "Well, I need to be careful about some of these ambitions I have, because I don't know whether that's the insecurity defining the path or if it's my sort of intrinsic, these are intrinsic things that will make me feel content." So, my question is about how do I know if my ambitions, how do I reframe them now to make sure that they are leading me to a happy place or a fulfilled place and not just scratching some unscratchable insecurity?
- MGMo Gawdat
That's so interesting. The, the, did the, did the sexy girlfriend, uh, make you happy or make you miserable?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Miserable.
- MGMo Gawdat
There you go. Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The s- the sexy one did, made me miserable.
- MGMo Gawdat
Right, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But the, the one that wasn't so, ss- s- wasn't, didn't care about being sexy and cared about other things, you know, had those good values-
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... made me much happier.
- MGMo Gawdat
Did, did, did the Range Rover break down any time and annoy the hell out of you?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, a couple of times.
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah, there you go, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It got smashed up, people broke into it all the time and-
- MGMo Gawdat
There you go, right? So-
- SBSteven Bartlett
... it cost a lot of money and hard to park.
- MGMo Gawdat
So I, I s- I think we need to differentiate between two sides. One, one is s- uh, ambition and the other is expectation. Okay? So, have any ambition you want. Any ambition you want, hopefully a good ambition. Be a good m- a good billionaire. Okay? So m- my dream is that by the end of my life, I will have lost all of the money I made, not taking it to the grave anyway, hm, and made a billion people happy. Th- that's a very, very interesting definition of wealth. Okay? Have one of those or have any definition you want, any ambition you want. But have the right expectations. There is a difference between ambition and expectations. Ambition is what gets us to strive and strive in life and go further and have an impact. Great. Set as many of those as you want. When we achieved 10 million happy, we set a billion happy. Okay? But don't get me wrong, it took Jesus 2,000 years to get to a billion people. I'm not gonna get there. Le- let's just be very clear. The expectation is clear, hm? My expectation is that my best dream is that I will energize enough people to take the mission forward. Okay? And that's my expectation. So you know what my expectation is today? My ambition is a billion happy. My expectation is that those listening to us are happy. Okay? And if that fails, that you are happy. That's good enough. That's an amazing day, right? And once you set your expectations right, nothing can dent your unhappiness. Hmm? Don't, don't get me wrong, I wake up every morning and I go like, "Huh, what are we gonna do today? Can we reach, you know, 100,000 people today? Is there a piece of content we can develop? Can we do this? Can we, uh, can I write another book?" I don't know. Hmm? And I'm constantly engaged, that's my ambition.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- MGMo Gawdat
Hmm? There are days where I wake up and nothing happens. Great, yeah, that exists, part of life. Hmm? When you differentiate those two, everything becomes okay. Now, I would also say when you're setting your ambitions, avoid junk food. Okay? Avoid the stuff that was promised to you to make you happy before and failed to make you happy then.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- MGMo Gawdat
Okay? I, I know that because I had 16 cars in my garage. The reason I had 16 cars in my garage was because I thought the first one would make me happy and it didn't. So I told myself, "Ah, it's the color. I should've taken another color." Right? So I bought another one, uh, "Oh, it's the model." Okay? And then I was like, "No, but I don't have a fast car. Maybe I need, a fast car will make me happy. No, a f- vintage car will make me happy." And you know what happens? Every time the, the, the promise is missed, you go like, "Ah, no, no, hold on, maybe more or different is gonna make me happy." Wake up. You're a smart person. Those things don't make you happy. Okay? The, a- and just measure. Look back in your life and find the actual moments that made you happy. You know, I, I have a practice that I call the happy list. Hmm? And on the happy list I say, "Write down as many answers as you can to the statement that starts with I feel happy when." Okay? Nobody ever wrote, "I f- I feel happy when I buy a Ferrari." Okay? Yeah, you get that for a couple of moments. Nobody says, "I feel happy when I win the Nobel Prize." People say, "I feel happy when my daughter smiles. I feel happy when I have a good cup of coffee. I feel happy when I have a connected conversation, when I learn something new." All of them accessible. All of them that, things that you can introduce in your life today or this week at most. Okay? And yet we don't do any of them because we wanna buy the Ferrari. Made me miserable. I swear to you, I think Ferrari is gonna sue me. It was, it made me miserable.Okay. It always broke down. It was so noisy, it was so noisy and it didn't meet my character. I'm a simple guy, I don't want to be looked at in the streets, right? And it made me miserable, and yet I tried. And you know what's the funny thing? The funniest thing is that I swear to you, I would take one of those cars out and two minutes into the drive I wouldn't remember which one it is. Because when you're driving what are you looking at? The road. Okay. Especially when it was dark and at night, you just don't see the car anymore, it's like bleh something is taking you somewhere, right? And yet, I keep trying. It's so stupid.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Gratitude.
- MGMo Gawdat
Oh, yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) It's, it's the theme that came to mind when you were speaking then because some people think, and I was definitely one of those, that the way to get, have more in your life is to go and buy more. But in fact it's- it came to, and this is one of the conclusive points in my book was that
- 1:13:48 – 1:19:49
Gratitude
- SBSteven Bartlett
you can create so much more with gratitude-
- MGMo Gawdat
Absolutely.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... from what you already have.
- MGMo Gawdat
$4 t-shirts.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
Absolutely love them. Make my life so easy, I don't really have to iron them, I don't have to, you know, worry, worry about... When I go on a date, the first thing I say is that, "This you're going to see every time, I hope you're going to find other qualities in me."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
Okay. And it's very open. And if she doesn't like that and she wants the Armani suit, she's not for me. It's very good. Okay. Now, the game is this, hm, gratitude is the ultimate, uh, solution to the happiness equation, because it doesn't only remind you that the event is meeting expectation, it tells you that the event is so much better than expectation that you're grateful for it. Okay. And it does something else that's amazing, it's neuroplasticity at his best. It basically tells you, "Okay brain, I know you're grumpy, I know you want to tell me the seven things that went, things that went wrong today, but your task right now is to go and find the thing that you're grateful for, something that went so well that you're happy with it. Go brain, do your work." And if you do that every day, hopefully several times a day, hm, suddenly your brain goes like, "Oh, when I was searching for that thing you asked me ou- ou- out, you know, that I was grateful for, I found three other things I'm grateful for, because I'm getting really good at it, because life is full of blessings." Right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MGMo Gawdat
It is the absolute answer. Hmm. And you know what's the most interesting part of gratitude? Uh, part of my, my, of Search for Happy I talk about a concept I call look down. Okay. And look down is the idea that if I compare to the guy that had 17 cars, I'd feel miserable. Okay. If a, if a model compares to the supermodel, she would feel miserable. Okay. If you compare to the guy in Africa or the guy in India or the guy in Afghanistan, hm, or the refugee camp, you would actually suddenly realize, oh my God, I'm so blessed. Mone- one of the most interesting statistics is the Nordic countries, they measure something called subjective wellbeing. Subjective wellbeing basically is the quality of your life. They have the highest subjective wellbeing on the planet, and yet they have some of the highest suicide rates. Why? Because as the quality of our life increases we keep looking up, we keep raising our expectations like we have a service level agreement with life. Okay. Now that the government can give me, you know, healthcare and pension and so on, then maybe my girlfriend shouldn't annoy me either. Right. Where do you get that from? Show me their contract.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) .
- MGMo Gawdat
Right? And if... And, and suddenly it's just constantly resetting. If you look down, if you look down, I promise you it's going to take, take you a very long time to get to the bottom. There are so many people in the world that are so much less fortunate than you are and it's almost arrogant, and so sorry to say stupid, to not recognize that. Okay. To re- to not... If, if you live in the UK, by definition, hm, you're one of the luckiest 10% alive, it's as simple as that. Okay. At least most, the majority of the people in the UK. And by the way, if you're listening to Stephen, then I can guarantee you, you are.
Episode duration: 1:57:33
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