The Diary of a CEOThe Man Behind Red Bull Racing's Success! Christian Horner
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
135 min read · 27,050 words- 0:00 – 2:06
Intro
- CHChristian Horner
It's a mental game. And when you see your counterpart smashing up headphones and glancing at cameras, you know that you've got to win. Christian Horner, the team boss of the world championship winning team, Red Bull Racing. Red Bull's contesting. Oh!
- SBSteven Bartlett
You came into Red Bull when it wasn't doing great.
- CHChristian Horner
When I came into the sport, I was the youngest team principal in Formula 1. I still am to this day, ironically. And I don't have any formal qualifications, bar a couple of A levels. I wanted to make sure that we were the team on the upward graft and think, "Okay, how can we turn shit into fertilizer?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
You can lose championships, as we've seen-
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... in seconds.
- CHChristian Horner
Of all the controversy! Of all the controversy! It felt like it was slipping away. And then suddenly- Verstappen takes the lead in the race! ... it was insane.
- NANarrator
But mostly -
- CHChristian Horner
If somebody came up with a script and said, "That's the way this season's gonna pan out," nobody would have believed it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
All that press scrutiny.
- CHChristian Horner
Formula 1 is a very glamorous world from the outside looking in. It can be a lonely place at, at, at, at times.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Have you ever had moments of anxiety?
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah. It sort of crept up on me without, you know, recognizing it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Same.
- CHChristian Horner
And this is just your body telling you that there's a lot going on here. And, uh, for me, you know, I've had enough.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you look at your competition, which has been Mercedes-
- CHChristian Horner
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... why do you think your team will win?
- CHChristian Horner
I think the-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Before this episode begins, I just wanna say a huge thank you to all of our new subscribers. 74% of you that watch this channel didn't subscribe before. And we're now down to about 71%. So, that helps us in a number of ways that are quite hard to explain. But simply, the bigger the channel gets, the bigger the guests get. So if you haven't yet subscribed to The Diary of a CEO, if I could have any favors from you, if you've ever watched this show and enjoyed it, it's just to, to please hit the subscribe button. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.
- 2:06 – 9:29
What drives you?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Christian, there's a slight pun, I guess, to this opening question, but, um, as I look back into your early years, and as you look back in hindsight and sort of self-assess, what drives you?
- CHChristian Horner
What drives me? I've, I'm naturally a competitive person. And, uh, you know, it, I've always, uh, you know, enjoyed competition. I've always enjoyed working, you know, within a team of people. And, uh, and winning. You know, winning, there's just no, no feeling like it. And, uh, uh, you know, whether it's achieving a checkered flag first or sealing a deal to get on a car, um, you know, that's always what's, what's driven me. It's al- always been about the competition.
- SBSteven Bartlett
In our earliest years, I, I think, you know, there's ... Psychology shows that we're, we're formed most definitively by the things that happen, the context we're grown up in, older brothers, you know, the parenting. When you look back and connect those dots, is there anything else there that, um, is important context to who you are today?
- CHChristian Horner
Well, I'm the middle child of, of three, so my older brother was, was the, the sensible one of, of the three bo- of, of the three boys. Um, and then my younger brother was more outrageous, I would say. And, and the middle child is always that slightly awkward one. Um, you know, it's particularly within, within three. So, um, you know, I wasn't, I didn't excel at school. I wasn't that interested in school. School, for me, was almost like a, a social thing. But I enjoyed sport and I enjoyed team sport at, at, at school. So where my older brother was quite academic, he was, he was crap at sport. Um, whereas, you know, I played in the football team or the cricket team, or, or whatever was, whatever was going. And, um, y- you know, I, I just enjoyed that. And, uh, I think that, you know, being a, being a middle child, um, you're always slightly different. Uh, the, the, the younger ones always ends up being the spoiled one, the older ones, the sensible one, and the, the middle one tends to be in his own lane, for certainly from the, the middle children I've met.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What did you think you were gonna be when you grew up?
- CHChristian Horner
I wanted to be Evil Knievel. Well, you know, I wanted to be a stuntman.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- CHChristian Horner
Um, and then there was a program, um, The Fall Guy, with Lee Majors in it, who drove around in a big truck and, and so on. And I ... You know, he was a stuntman. And I thought that was super cool. So I was always in- fascinated by cars and speed and, and so on. So, that attracted me to, um, you know, just, just the world of, of engines. And from a very early age, uh, from about 12, you know, I was pestering and pestering my mum, because I knew my father wouldn't, uh, wouldn't buy me one, to get, to buy a, a, a motorized go-kart. And I saved up what I had. And then for my 12th birthday, um, we found this thing in the back of a, uh, uh, a newspaper, this secondhand, uh, sort of 20-year-old go-kart. And it was too low to drive around a farm or on a, on the grass, so we found a track. And suddenly, I discovered this ... You could race these things. And, and suddenly, that whetted my appetite at a very young age. Um, and, you know, Nigel Mansell, at the time, was a complete hero of mine. I was starting to get into, into Formula 1. So from a very early age, you know, I became almost obsessive about wanting to be a, a racing driver, to the point that I didn't wanna grow any taller. I got, you know, to 5'7" and thought, "Yeah, you know, I don't wanna grow any, any, any taller." I was almost willing myself to, um, to, to be short. (laughs) Um, so ...
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- CHChristian Horner
So, uh, because all racing drivers tended to be sort of pint-sized during that, that, that time. So for me, that was my dream. I could just visualize myself being a, being a racing driver. And that's, y- you know, everything else became secondary at that point.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What influence did your, your mother and father have separately on you?
- CHChristian Horner
And they had, they had a huge influence on me, both in, uh, in, in, in different ways. My father worked in the automotive industry, so he shared a passion for, for cars and engines and, and, um, motor racing. You know, he was, uh... He done some marshaling in his youth and always liked being around, around cars. He always had, you know, nice cars and, and, uh, working in that industry. Um, you know, he was hugely, hugely knowledgeable. And my mother, you know, my mother wou- would always encourage us to follow our dreams, and she'd always push us as, as, as children, ne- never to accept, y- you know, just being, uh, y- you know, run of the mill. Always push yourself. Always extend yourself. Um, and so she had an awful lot of drive, you know, in her. And so it was a combination, you know, of the, o- of the two. So o- once I discovered this world of, of motor racing at th- so around the age of, age of 12, you know, my father and I were able to then... You know, we spent quite a lot of time together, uh, you know, traveling the country and then racing internationally and then into car racing and so on. And it was a, it was a great thing to be able to, you know, to share with him, and he, you know, he made a lot of sacrifices to help me in, in my career. Um, my brothers both had the chance to, to have a go at racing. Neither of them were, were, you know, were interested. Um, and so we spent a lot of time going up and down the country to different kart races. My mom would pack a, you know, pack all the sandwiches up and, you know, it became a family thing, um, going to these different racing events.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I'm really intrigued by that winning streak in people, and that competitiveness. Because not everybody... And you would have seen this in the drivers and the, the people you've worked with. Not everybody has that. They don't have that, like, competitive tenacity where they ju- it's they just have to win.
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
W- where does, where does that come from in you? Have you figured that out? Is it something which has built over time? Was there always a bit of a glimmer of that winning at all costs or...
- CHChristian Horner
I think it's something that's in, in your DNA. And look, I've got... I'm one of three, uh, boys in our, in our family, and I'm very different to my, to my brothers. And, um, (laughs) you know, I've got the same parents, uh, but we're all very different. And I think you either have it, you know, or you, or you don't. And, uh, you know, I, I always had this inner drive and, and desire, um, that was purely focused around, you know, motor racing. I didn't vis- envisage myself being a tennis player or a, you know, an- anything else. I just wanted to, to, to race. I just wanted to compete. And I would watch hours and hours of video footage on VHS tapes of old races and Grand Prixs and, you know, study the minutest of details of, you know, what racing boots Nigel Mansell was wearing or, or, you, you know, you totally engross yourself in all aspects of it. And, uh, and I think visualization is a big thing as well. So I think if you, if you visualize something and you really want it, I've found in, certainly in my life, that, you know, that's, that's absolutely achievable. 'Cause you set, you're setting yourself a target, you're setting yourself a goal. And, and that's what you gotta shoot for.
- 9:29 – 11:00
Visualisation
- CHChristian Horner
- SBSteven Bartlett
There's a lot of talk around, around visualization. I think there was a book that came out called The Secret, which, um, somewhat painted visualization as a, uh, supernatural force in the world that kind of conspires to give you what you want.
- CHChristian Horner
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you talk about visualization, do you see it as a supernatural force or do you see it as much more of a practical satellite navigation of...
- CHChristian Horner
I think, (sighs) I think you could see it as both in many respects. Uh, uh, y- you know, I'm probably a bit more practical in my, in my thinking, so I'm not engaged with the supernatural. (laughs) Um, but, but y- you know, I'm a great believer that if you visualize something, if you see yourself being on that podium, and you believe in it and you want it and you really strive for it, you, you can a- you can achieve it. And I didn't achieve it as a driver, but I went on to achieve it as a, uh, you know, as a team principal. And, um, uh, yeah, and whether that's winning a Grand Prix or winning a world championship, um, winning a Constructors' World Championship, it's, it's having that belief, hav- and never losing sight of that, that goal, because that's what takes you through the, the, you know, the tough days, the difficult days, uh, when everything seems to be conspiring against you, that you gotta keep believing in that target and visualizing that, that target. Um, and I would say by and large during my career, that's, that's, that's come true.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Y- you
- 11:00 – 17:59
Why its important to focus on the details
- SBSteven Bartlett
talked about your kind of obsessive, um, focus on the details, even looking at a very young age, looking at these cassettes and seeing what boots they were wearing. That obsession as well, that, that obsession on the smallest of details, how has that played a role in everything that happened throughout the, the next couple of decades of your life?
- CHChristian Horner
I think it's, it's just a question of leaving no stone unturned, just always pursuing all the incremental areas, because they all, they all add up and it's all about attention to details. And sometimes it's the smallest things that can make the largest of difference. And you, you collectively add all of those elements together, um, and they add up at the end of the day. So, um, you know, particularly in the business that I'm operating in, in Formula 1, it is all about the detail. It is all about leaving no stone unturned, about pushing the boundaries, about extracting every ounce of performance out of these amazing machines, which ultimately, um, it's the people that drive that. And so it's therefore creating a culture-... that empowers that, that, um, uh, that essence of, of n- it never being enough, always striving to achieve more. And, uh, and then it's almost the fear of failure that, uh, that drives you on. 'Cause once you've sampled and you've tasted success, it becomes addictive like a drug and, and, you know, you just wanna experience it again and y- you know, have that, have that winning feeling.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's interesting. So let's start with the culture piece then with the team. So you said it's about creating that culture, a culture where every detail matters. In a practical way, there'll be loads of people listening to this podcast now that are building projects or businesses, or they might have a dance class. Whatever they're doing, um, how do they practically make those around them really appreciate the small stuff?
- CHChristian Horner
Well, I think you have to lead by example. And I think that, uh, you know, it's all about, um, uh, y- y- y- you know, just continually looking to, to improve, to be better. So for example, the races that we win, you know, you can always learn. It's never, ever enough. Um, you know, the last race we won in, in Monza, could we have done a better job on the strategy? Could we have been quicker in the pit stop? Um, could we have had a better start? Was our preparation in the lead up to the race, you know, good enough? Did we focus enough attention in the practice sessions on the things that, that turned out to be important in the, in the Grand Prix? So being self-analytical, and, is, is a key aspect of driving, of driving performance and never being satisfied. Saying, "Yeah, no, that was good enough." Because it, it never is. There's always something that you can learn, that you can, uh, that you can improve, and that you can build on as you're building this database of continual knowledge.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Does that change how you choose people to join the team? Are you looking for people that have a predisposition to care about the small stuff, or that have, are detail-orientated?
- CHChristian Horner
Well, I think you need, uh, you know, within a team, you need different strengths for different roles. And so when, y- within Formula 1, you've got obviously the design side of the, of, of the business, the creative side of the business. You've got the operational side where you've got to manufacture these, these incredible cars and then operate them cost-effectively at 22 Grand Prixs around, around the globe. And so you d- need different people for different roles. But it's all having that commonality of which is the car, which is, you know, these two amazing machines that we have to turn out at these 22 races a year, and to operate at their, at their optimum. And that is the focal point, you know, that everybody's, uh, you know, vested interest is, is involved in. So you've got to have, uh, you know, an eclectic mix of people that, that create a team. But so long as the goal that everybody is reaching for and striving for is the same, you know, you're gonna have a, a myriad of different personalities. I mean, we are, we're circa sort of 7 to 800 people, uh, you know, in our team. Plus then on top of that, we've got an engine group that we're, we're building as well. So over 1,000 people on one campus in Milton Keynes. And, uh, of course, you're gonna get a vast range of, of personalities and characters. But the one thing is common is it's all about the car. It's all about forming on the track.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How does one keep... How do... Is that 22 different departments as well?
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah. So it's, uh, 22 different departments across, across the business. And then for me, um, i- i- it's about getting the right people in the right roles and empowering them to do their job so that they've got clear, you know, objectives, clear targets that they've, that they're, you know, that they're shooting for, and then backing them. So I see a lot of my role is to ensure that they've got the support around them, they've got the tools around them that, uh, that they're defended when they need defending. Um, and that they're guided when they need, that wh- that they're, when they need guidance. And I think that there's no point... You know, I'm not an aerodynamicist or an engine engineer or I don't have any formal, you know, qualifications, bar a couple of A-levels. Um, so I'm not a specialist in any, any one area. So my role is to ensure that I'm putting the right people in the right roles and getting them collectively to work together.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I feel like that is the, that is the ultimate goal of business. It's funny 'cause as, as entrepreneurs, sometimes we think that we should be good at everything, or that we should, um, we should know how to do every job better than the person, you know, within, within that team. But what you said there, I think, is, was very m- very, very true in the sense of it's finding the right people and binding them with a culture that gets the best out of them, which is not an easy thing to do.
- CHChristian Horner
It's not because, uh, y- you know, there, there's, uh, l- l- lot of pride. Uh, people have egos as, as well. But I think it's accepting where your strengths and where your weaknesses are. And I think that, that, uh, not everybody can be a phenomenal aerodynamicist or a, you know, engine engineer or a chassis designer or, uh, you know, a number one mechanic. Um, and it's a matter of identifying, you know, the right people for the right roles and then... and empowering them to get on their job. There's no point me employing Adrian Newey as, you know, probably the best aerodynamicist in the, in the history of the sport and then telling him, you know, how to do his job, or telling Max Verstappen how to, how to drive a car. You know, you can point out things that you're seeing-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- CHChristian Horner
... um, and, and, and you can, uh, you know, offer some, some guidance. But in terms of... It's down to them in their specialist areas to, you know, to, to operate, and you try and give them the right tools and the right environment that enables them to flourish and succeed.
- 17:59 – 19:04
Ego
- CHChristian Horner
- SBSteven Bartlett
Have you had, like, instances in your career where you've hired a very talented asshole?
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And what I mean by that is (laughs) someone who's so good at their job, but-... ego, personality. Something has just-
- CHChristian Horner
Well, Formula 1 attracts them.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- CHChristian Horner
And, um, and, uh, egos and assholes are not too far apart sometimes (laughs) .
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- CHChristian Horner
Um, so, but, y- you know, you, there's no I in team. And I think that you quickly, you see, um, if you have a talented individual that isn't working in a team environment, they quickly become isolated. Um, and they either change their way and, and embrace the team or they end up falling by the wayside and not achieving their, you know, their potential, because it's too big a sport to be, um, you know, an in- individualist in, in it. You need to rely and trust in the other people around you, in the other departments around you, to be able to fulfill your, your part.
- 19:04 – 23:18
Do you self analysis?
- CHChristian Horner
- SBSteven Bartlett
Much of, much of management, um, s- I think starts with knowing how to manage yourself, 'cause if you, if you don't manage yourself successfully, then you can be a pretty awful manager.
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How, how... You talked about self-analysi- uh, self-analyzing the team after races, but do you self-analyze yourself?
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah, of course. I mean, you're always thinking, yeah, "What, what could I do better?" You know, "How could I, how could I perform better as a CEO or as a team principal? Um, did I handle that situation correctly? Could," you know, "Is there another way that we could have addressed that?" And I think that what I've learned over time is that I used to, you know, when I first came into the sport, I'd worry about almost everything, and I quickly came to the conclusion, "Well, there's no point in worrying about everything." Worry about the things you can control. The things that you can't control, don't let them take your energy. Don't let them take your, you know, your, your focus or distract you. Focus on the things that, that you're empowered d- to make a difference in. Um, and then I just, I, I'm able to, or was able to become more disciplined with my time and implying my time more, uh, more effectively than being spread too thin.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Emotional control, in sports, it's very passionate.
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
There's a fine line, isn't there? From what I've observed with some of the great, you know, managers in the world, like Sir Alex Ferguson and football stars, in between, like, the passion and letting the passion get out-
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... of hand.
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah, absolutely.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Anger and, you know. How do you balance that, and is it a balancing act?
- CHChristian Horner
Well, I think, I think the Brits are quite good at that, you know, keeping a stiff upper lip and, you know, head down, get on with it. And for me, you know, last year's World Championship was very much about that, and, um, y- you could see... Uh, yeah, I mean, it was a titanic battle, not just between the two drivers on track, but by, uh, you know, the two teams off track, and the person you're gauging yourself, uh, and you're pitched against as a team principal is, is your opposite number. And it's a mental game as much as a, a physical, uh, activity as well. And of course, it was the first time that, that that team in the seven, eight year period had come under, under any form of pressure, and I think you see people's true personalities and what they've really got when they're under pressure. So, of course, you know, when you see your counterpart smashing up headphones and pointing and ranting at cameras, you know that you've got to them, because then you know that if they're venting in such a way and they're feeling that pressure, that the people beneath them are gonna be offloaded onto as well, that they're gonna be (laughs) on the receiving end of that. And that, in my opinion, or in my experience, it caused people to tighten up. Um, and I remember before the race in Abu Dhabi, getting all the guys together, and saying, "Look, whatever happens today is gonna happen. Um, you know, all we can do is do the best that we can do today, and the most important thing is, you know, be proud of what you've achieved to get us to this position, that we're fighting for this World Championship, you know, that we've taken it all the way down to the wire, and most of all, enjoy it. You know, enjoy this experience. Whatever, whatever the outcome's gonna be, we don't know, but just let's go in there with an approach of give it everything and enjoy it and embrace it." And in the end, you know, it paid off. And I think that, as a leader, how you conduct yourself permeates throughout a business. So if, if you're feeling the tension and you're passing that on, then for me, that's not a healthy way to lead a team by fear. Um, you want it to be inclusive. You want it to be open. You want people to be able to feel that they can v- that they've got a voice, and that voice will be, you know, will be heard, rather than being afraid to speak up for fear of getting their, ye- ye- you know, their head taken off.
- 23:18 – 29:28
The journey of turning red-bull around
- CHChristian Horner
- SBSteven Bartlett
You came into Red Bull when, um, it, it wasn't doing great as a team, and over the, the next five, six, six years, you really turned that ship around. From the outside, I mean, people might see that as quite a simple thing, but I was reading about how you, um, t- you'd, you'd come to work on your first day of work, the consultants had flown over and fired the previous management team, which is, always causes a little bit of-
- CHChristian Horner
(laughs) Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... unease, shall I say, and then they fly out and leave you there. And then from there, you've got 450 people in this team that's kind of dysfunctional. It's not, it's not reaching its potential.
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Tell me, c- because there's a lot of... I always think about going into companies where there's an existing culture, and how you unpick it and turn it around.
- CHChristian Horner
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Tell me how you did that at Red Bull.
- CHChristian Horner
Well, that first day I arrived, I remember, um, arriving in the, in the office with a, a, a secretary that was in tears 'cause her previous boss had been (laughs) just fired. Um, there was unopened Christmas cards on the desk, a half-drunk cup of coffee.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- CHChristian Horner
And okay, and a fairly disgruntled workforce that had been through a revolving door of management changes whilst the team had been, uh, you know, owned by Jaguar. So, um, it's like, "Okay, how am I... You know, what's my game plan here?" And my, my plan was engage with the people, understand what are the issues, listen. You know, spend, you know, the next few months just listening, and form your own picture. And so, uh, you know, that's what I did over the first couple of months. I spent time walking around the factory, engaging with people, listening, and then the picture started to come clear that, you know, there were pockets within the team that, that, you know, there was real capability and, and talent, but it was just clear that they weren't working collectively. Uh, there was this blame culture within the business where the drawing office blamed aero, aero blamed the wind tunnel, um, you know, R&D blamed production, the race team were blamed, ev- everybody, um, and there was just this blame culture that there was no accountability or collective, you know, responsibility. So, it was then a question of, "Okay, how do we unpick that and how do we create the glue to bring this, this together?" And for me, what was really needed was, was technical direction. Um, and I thought, "Well, look, I'm going to go after the best in the business." Um, and that was Adrian Newey. Adrian had had a incredible career at Williams and, and McLaren, um, and, you know, there'd been, uh, uh, y- you know, a couple of years where McLaren hadn't been delivering at its, uh, at its potential, and you could see that business was changing, and it just felt like there was a window of opportunity. So, uh, you know, I made sure I got to, uh, to meet Adrian, and then I built up a relationship with him and, uh, his then wife, and then managed to convince him to come and join the team. Um, and that was a litmus moment because then suddenly people woke up and said, "Wow, if Adrian Newey's prepared to come here, he must see something that he, he believes in." Um, and, uh, y- you know, we set off, set off from that, and that then g- you know, you know, galvanized the technical group, 'cause Adrian's the most single-minded, you know, engineer I've ever, uh, ever come across. Um, and, you know, that, that galvanized the team because it was, "Well, if Adrian says that's the direction we're going, technically, that's, that's the way we're going." And, um, it then put a sense of purpose into the design office, and that enabled me to attract more talent to supplement what was there, to weed out the few bits that needed tidying up. But the core basis of the team hadn't really changed from what had been underachieving at Jaguar. We'd just put in clear leadership into a, into a structure, and started to then instill a culture of, it's not just about having the seventh-biggest budget which means you're gonna finish seventh. It was a question of, "Okay, what can we do? How can we push the boundaries? How can we be more inn- innovative? How can we take the fight to the guys at the front?" Because we're not prepared to settle, you know, being seventh. We wanna win. How, how, what is the fastest route to getting, uh, into a winning position?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay, so I've got three questions there that came to mind. The first one was about single-mindedness. In, in business and in leadership, sometimes single-mindedness is seen as being undemocratic, and, like, I think that sometimes people think that organizations are supposed to be like democratic where everyone gets a vote and then we decide which direction we're going in based on the vote. But you've highlighted single-mindedness in that instance as being a real unifier and a real motivator.
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely, and look, uh, you know, obv- obviously you wanna listen and you wanna gauge, but at the end of the day, somebody's gotta make a decision, and sometimes that might not be the most popular of decisions. But the most important thing is to make a decision to say, "This is the direction that we're going in." And the most important thing with that, once you've committed to a decision, to make sure that you give it your best shot. But if it's not working, to recognize that it's not working and not be afraid to change, to stick your hand up and say, "Okay, we got it wrong. Let's, let's go another route," because, uh, the worst thing is just repeating the same mistake after mistake, you know, after mistake. And I think, you know, good leadership, um, is strong leadership where, you know, people wanna know what is the direction, what is the objective, why are we doing this, um, what are we pushing for, what are we striving for. Um, and, uh, you know, it's about taking people on that, on that journey, but, uh, about having, you know, very clear goals and objectives.
- 29:28 – 34:55
communication within a company
- CHChristian Horner
- SBSteven Bartlett
That, that taking them on the journey w- with you, that, I guess that's a job of inspiration and communication. How, how, how important is that when you're trying to get 450 people to come along with you, really making sure you've nailed down communication and, I guess, inspiring communication, and how has Red Bull done that?
- CHChristian Horner
I think Red Bull, um, you know, as a business, is a phenomenal business that have, uh, you know, it's a maverick brand, it's, it's pushed the boundaries in everything that it does, it's, it's a lifestyle brand, it's, um-It's always been edgy, you know, with the extreme sports that they've been involved in. And, and so I'm a bit of a, you know, very much a maverick. And I think taking that DNA and, you know, implementing it within a Formula One team has been, you know, incredibly effective. And, uh, what's enabled us to be dynamic is that we've had the full support, you know, of the, of, of the chairman, you know, of Dietrich Mateschitz, who, you know, has been passionate about this, uh, this activity. And he's, uh, y- y- you know, unwaveringly, you know, backed us. And there were difficult days where, y- y- you know, things ca-, you know, came under scrutiny, but he gave the time, um, and the stability within, and allowed the stability within the bus- business for us to really cultivate, you know, a winning machine, and with the key people in the right, in, in the right positions. And, uh, uh, you know, he's been phenomenal in the support that he's shown us and the, and the freedom that he's enabled us to have to operate effectively, efficiently, quickly, and sharply without being bogged down by the process of a, uh, you know, a corporate entity. Um, so we've kept that agility. And even though the company has grown to three times the size that, uh, when, when Red Bull came into the sport, it's maintained that racing spirit, that, that ability to make quick decisions, whether it's on a driver or a sponsor or a, uh, a member of staff or a s-, you know, whatever it may be. We've had that dynamic ability to move and, and adapt quickly.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's so important. I, I spent so long... You know, I spent 10 years working with CEOs and founders on their marketing, and w- I'd see time and time again how really the cost wasn't being wrong, it was being slow.
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So it was taking nine months to find out you were wrong-
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... versus the team over here that would spend... So if we were pitching an idea, we'd pitch it to two companies at the same time, say. One of them would take nine months to find out that the idea was bad. The other one would take one week to find out it was bad, and they'd be-
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... on to the next one. And that, and people don't think of, like, the design of the very top of the organization, the relationship the CEO has with the chairman, and no, like, stifling board in the way-
- CHChristian Horner
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... is such a huge competitive advantage over time.
- CHChristian Horner
Absolutely. And I think, you know, recently, we've had exactly that dilemma where, you know, we had the opportunity to work, you know, with an OEM, take a significant shareholding in the team, but I think it was recognized that, hang on, that, that DNA will be affected, um, if we cannot continue to operate exactly in the manner that's made us successful with that ability to make quick-fire decisions, uh, without having to go through layers and layers of, you know, process and, and bureaucracy.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Quick word from one of our sponsors. I've got a tip for all of you that will make your virtual meeting experiences, I think, 10 times better. As some of you may know by now, BlueJeans by Verizon offers seamless, high-quality video conferencing. But the reason why I use BlueJeans versus other video conferencing tools is because of immersion. Their tools make you feel more connected to the employees or customers you're trying to engage with. And now they're launching one of their biggest feature enhancements to impact virtual events so far called Bluejeans Studio. I actually used it the other day. I did an, a virtual event using the studio, which I think about 700 of you came to. TV-level production quality all done by one person with very little technical experience on a laptop. So if you've got an event coming up and you're thinking about doing it virtually, check out Bluejeans Studio now. Let me know what you think 'cause I genuinely believe... I know this is an advert and I'm supposed to say this, but I genuinely believe it's the best tool I've seen for doing really immersive, simple but high-quality production virtual events. Quick one. For many years people have been asking for a coffee-flavored Huel, and quite recently Huel released the iced coffee caramel flavor of their, um, ready-to-drink Huels. And I've just become hooked on it e- over the last couple of weeks. I've been on a really interesting journey with Huel which I've described and talked about a little bit on this podcast. I started with the berry ready-to-drinks, then I moved over to the protein salted caramel because it's 100 calories and it gives you all of your essential vitamins and minerals but also gives you the 20-odd grams of protein you need. And now I'm balanced between them both. I drink mostly the banana flavor ready to drink. I've got really into the iced coffee caramel, um, flavor of, of Huel's ready to drink, and now I'm drinking that as well as the protein. Make sure you try the new ready-to-drink flavors. The, the caramel flavor is amazing. The, um, b- new banana flavor as well is amazing, and obviously, as I said, the iced coffee caramel flavor has been a real smash hit. So check it out. Let me know what you think on social media. I see all of your tags and Instagram posts and tweets about Huel. Back to the podcast, please.
- 34:55 – 38:02
How did red-bull innovate?
- SBSteven Bartlett
You talked about innovation being both at the heart of the Red Bull brand but also, um, it being a big component of what you brought to, uh, Red Bull to make it a winning machine. How did the Red Bull team innovate versus other incumbents?
- CHChristian Horner
Well, I think we grabbed the regulations. So initially it was about building and, and making sure that we got the right tools. So from 2005 when Red Bull came into the sport, for the first four years was about, you know, recruiting Adrian, getting some other key people around him, making sure that we got the right simulation tools and our wind tunnel was delivering reliable results. And then a big regulation change came for the 2009 season which felt like a, a clean sheet of paper for this group to really, you know, grab hold of. And, um, it was a big regulation change at the, at the time. And, you know, we got it, we got it right, or mainly right, um, because there was contention with the governing body about something called a double diffuser which, um, uh, certain teams had and others didn't, but it got caught up in the politics between the governing body and the commercial rights holder and the teams who were all arguing for a bigger share. And we sort of got caught in the crossfire of that, that, you know, when it was really about Ferrari and, and the FIA and had nothing to do with Red Bull, but we'd come up with a competitive car. Um, and then suddenly...You know, we were able to start competing and start winning. And we were making mistakes, but we were, we were fast, we were challenging, we were winning races. And we lost out on that championship at the end of the year to Jenson Button and, and, and Ross Brawn because we'd had a weak start, um, due to these, this regulation, uh, discrepancy. Um, but then from t- you know, 2010, we took that momentum into that year. And we're still a little rough around the edges, but we managed to, uh, y- you know, basically polish ourselves enough that we came out with both championships at the end of 2010. '11 then we went on and, and was a totally dominant year. And then a big regulation came for '12, we had to adopt to that, and won it at the final race in, in Brazil against, uh, Fernando Alonso, and then stability into 2013, so another dominant year, um, for the team. And then obviously then it was a complete reset because when 2014 came along, all of the engine regulations changed to this V6 hybrid, and we were completely out of bed. The engine that we had was nowhere near the competitiveness of, uh, certainly that Mercedes had come up with. And suddenly you go from being serial winners to turning up at a race and not having a chance of success. And that was, that was tough to keep the hearts and minds of the people, um, having been used to winning to suddenly turning up and, you know, if we're lucky we, we won three races that year that were all opportunistic, but, you know, in terms of competing for a championship, no
- 38:02 – 40:05
Keeping teams focused
- CHChristian Horner
chance.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How'd you do that? How'd you keep their hearts and minds motivated, focused?
- CHChristian Horner
I think you, you, you identify, again, the area that's, that's causing the weakness and look to address it, um, and focus on the bits that you can control. So the engine we couldn't control. That was from a third party, you know, supplier. We could put pressure on them, we could, we could try and, uh, assist them with tools that we had. But all we could do was ensure that we made the best chassis that we could possibly make, that we got the best drivers and we got the best out of them. And so, um, you know, races that weren't sensitive to power, you know, we could challenge and win those, w- there was a Monaco or it was a, you know, Budapest-type, you know, uh, circuit. Um, and, uh, then looked to address the, the weakness, and it took us until 2019, and again a big change from, uh, one engine supplier to another manufacturer, to Honda, to suddenly have that ability to, you know, start challenging for, for, for victories and start to build a championship challenge.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I didn't realize that in, um, in Formula 1 there were so many changes with engines and regulations so often. D-
- CHChristian Horner
It's changing all the time, sometimes even in the year-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- CHChristian Horner
... you know, changes are introduced, and, uh, you know, we've seen that, we've seen that this year. Um, and it's not uncommon for clarifications or technical directives, sometimes hidden behind the grounds of safety, to be, you know, to be introduced, and it's about how you adapt to those changes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that's a culture, question of culture, right?
- CHChristian Horner
It is. It's, you know, you can push against it, but at a certain point you've got to accept it and, uh, uh, and, and get on with it, and, and think, "Okay, how, h- how can we turn, y- you know, shit into fertilizer?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- CHChristian Horner
You know, at the end of the day, and, and, and you've got to embrace, you've got to embrace the change and you've got to go
- 40:05 – 42:17
Why do you think your team will win?
- CHChristian Horner
with it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When I look at my competition in all the industries that I'm competing in professionally, I could tell you the answer to the question why, why I will win. Like, I have my thesis as to why me and my team-
- CHChristian Horner
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... will beat them-
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... um, based on, it might be culture, it might be philosophy, it might be we care more about this thing and over the long term that's-
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... gonna pay off. When you look at your competition, which has been Mercedes-
- CHChristian Horner
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... for, in all the press and in, on, on the racetrack over the last couple of years, why do you think your team will win?
- CHChristian Horner
I think that there's several factors. I think that, uh, y- you know, some things, performance is always cyclical and, you know, Mercedes went through an incredible winning spree, you know, longer than we certainly did, and at some point that was always gonna come to an end, whether it's through complacency or what- whatever causes that. And I wanted to make sure that we were the team on the upward graft, capitalize on, uh, any sign of weakness. And I think, you know, there were several components. One, of course, is the driver. The driver played a key role, you know, in that, in that Max Verstappen, you know, emerging as this exciting determining character, and you will not meet a more determined personality or driver with more commitment and, and passion than, than Max. And the team just having this, this inner belief and, and again pushing all of the boundaries, operating at a level that was taking ourselves out of our comfort zone, whether that be world record-breaking pit stops, aggressive strategies, attacking strategies, taking calculated risks, um, to, you know, with high risk, high, high reward, and, uh, with very much an attitude of, "We've got nothing to lose." You know, we've got, we've gotta throw everything at this. And I think it just, in the end, came down to, to desire, that there was more desire, um, and the way that we applied ourselves as a team under massive pressure, uh, we dealt with that pressure y- you know, in a, in a very together manner.
- 42:17 – 55:36
How hard should we push people?
- CHChristian Horner
- SBSteven Bartlett
How hard do you push people? I know you said you let them get on with their job and that they know better than, than you do what they're there to do, but in terms of those one-on-one conversations you're having with those people-... to get them to break those records in the-
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... pit stop, or to get them to really embody the culture of Red Bull and want to win, regardless of whether they won last year, regardless of what's been written about in the press. What are those conversations? And how hard do you, do you have to push?
- CHChristian Horner
I think you've always got t- encourage people to get out of their comfort zone, um, because if you're in your comfort zone, you're cruising. You've got to push your- yourself. Now, I'm not a table-banger or a- a- you- you know, a hairdryer like an Alex Ferguson. But it's about getting people to go that extra, go that extra step to take themselves out of their comfort zone. Easiest thing in the world is not to have any change, but you've got to continually evolve. Um, and so whilst we've had tremendous stability, the way that the organization has evolved is, even in the last two years, is enormous as we've embraced new challenges of taking on being an engine manufacturer, uh, which is something completely nuts. Why would an energy drinks subsidiary take on Mercedes Benz and Ferrari and Renault and Honda as a, being an engine manufacturer? But it's, it- it takes our own destiny into our own control and brings everything under one, one roof and becomes completely integrated. So in many respects, it's totally logical. Um, but starting from scratch is just about attracting, again, uh, all the same basics that served us w- well on the chassis of getting the right people, the right tools, the right structure, and having a can-do attitude of, "Yeah, we're gonna- we're gonna shoot for the stars, and maybe we're gonna land on the moon." But, you know, we're not afraid of taking on a challenge.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Have you got a complacency detector built into your mind? Can you sense when you feel like people in teams are becoming complacent?
- CHChristian Horner
You can- you can sense it. You can- you can feel it. You know, if I have, um, uh, you know, there's almost a guilt factor that you feel that, "Well, I don't feel like I'm busy enough. I need to be busier."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- CHChristian Horner
Um, and you- so you push yourself. And I think in turn you end up, you know, pushing other areas of the- of the business, and I think COVID was a- a- a phenomenal challenge. Um, that, uh, you know, took everybody by surprise. Again, it's how- how do you take on that challenge? And, you know, we had- went from a culture of having probably about five people that had the ability to work remotely because we're paranoid about IP and information going o- out of the business. Overnight, we went to 400. We didn't even know whether our IT systems would be able to cope with it, and then had to maintain that culture during this totally alien process of being locked in your- in your home but- and everything happening on Zoom calls and, uh, and video conferencing, and having to design a car remotely. Uh, but by keeping that essence of team and communicating and- and talking, uh, we managed to keep that- embody that sense of- of- of team. Um, and, uh, I think that was a big factor in why we came out with such a competitive car in 20- or for the 2021 season because what we'd done through COVID in keeping that essence of team together just ca- gave us a better product for 2021.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You must really obsess about the small stuff because, you know, all these different departments, all these teams, all it takes is a small pocket of complacency for the standards to drop a couple of percent in the car. If one team doesn't communicate properly or if they just don't, you know, really push themselves to find a marginal gain, that can cause like a couple of percent drop in the performance of the car. That can lose you a- a- a championship. You can lose championships, as we've seen-
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... in seconds.
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
After years of work, just a few seconds.
- CHChristian Horner
But- but I think what we've managed is a- um, developed within the business now is this- this, uh, again, culture of not wanting to let the side down, not wanting to be the link in the chain that- that- that- that breaks. And, uh, you know, whether that's from, you know, van drivers hitting deliveries of, you know, to- to suppliers, to machinists or designers or, uh, technicians at the circuit or- or- or mechanics or engineers. Um, that runs the whole way through the business, that nobody wants to let the side down. And I think that, uh, everybody's got that vested interest in seeing those cars, you know, succeed, and when they do, the sense of pride and fulfillment. And of course you have to celebrate success. You have to enjoy success 'cause it's not gonna happen every single day. You're gonna lose a lot more races than you're gonna win, so when you win, embrace it, enjoy it, celebrate that moment, which is what we do as a team after every single race. If we win a race, we get everybody together with a champagne after the race in the race base on a Monday, uh, you know, afternoon, to celebrate that success. And if we haven't won, you know, we'll- we'll talk about, "Okay, why didn't we win? What do we need to do better?" Even when we've won and we've celebrated, we're saying, "Okay, how can we still be better? How can we improve, you know, on this?" And- and getting everybody to share that moment, to share in that success is something that's so, so important, um, because then everybody collectively feels it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
After you won the title in 2021, how did it feel?
- CHChristian Horner
2021 for me personally was a hugely challenging year because there was the pressure of everything going on track. Um, there was an awful lot going o- on- off track as well as we're building this engine business and- so you're recruiting from, you know, rival teams. And because Mercedes being UK-based, there was a lot of people coming out of Mercedes that heightened the pressure. There was then a big PR, uh-... battle as well, so you're in front of the cameras every week. You're having to defend your position or defend your driver and, and it was very concerted in, in all direction. You could feel the pressure and building and building. It was like a heavyweight bout from round one in Bahrain through 22 rounds to when we got it to, to Abu Dhabi. And y- y- y- we went into Abu Dhabi equal on points, with Max being ahead virtue of, um, uh, race victories. Mercedes had gone there with barristers because they were convinced that Max was just gonna drive into, um, Lewis, I think, on the first lap and, uh, they'd be arguing it out, uh, in the, in, in the stewards. But, you know, we qualified on, on pole, and then for the majority of that race, um, we felt that decisions went acr- against us at the beginning of the race 'cause Max had made a pass and Lewis had cut the chicane, but he wasn't told to give the position back. And everything we tried in that race, it felt like it was slipping away. And so what was going through my mind was like, "How am I gonna pick the guys up, you know, after this? What am I gonna say to Max?" H- you know, after such an intense season like this, um, you know, what am I gonna- gonna say to them? And then suddenly, it just shows that, uh, y- you know, anything can happen in life, and suddenly, y- a, a window of opportunity presented itself with, um, one of the back markers crashing. Uh, and, you know, we had to be on our feet. We took the risk. We made the pit stop. We bolted on a new set of tires and Mercedes went defensive and conservative, and that gave us a window of opportunity to challenge for one racing lap. Um, and, uh, with a fresh set of tires and Max Verstappen in your car, he was gonna go for it. And so when he pulled the move off at a corner that we completely unexpected, and I think Lewis totally unexpected it because he left the door open there-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- CHChristian Horner
... trying to get a good exit onto the, onto the straight, it was like, "Oh my God." And then, you know, they're going down the straight, they're side by side and, you know, like, they get to the chicane and it's he went in a little bit deep and you know the strength in Mercedes engine on the straight line, think, like, you gotta get the exit onto the next straight, and then they're side by side. And then he managed to keep and protect the, the, the inside line into the next left-hander and you know at that point it's done, bar s- y- you know, something breaking on the car. And then the feeling of, of just everything being lifted, uh, and to see him after seven long years of, uh, we'd been nowhere. We hadn't even been able to challenge them. And then suddenly to see everything culminate and seeing your driver and car and team cross the checkered lap flag to become the world champion, that, that was, that was just, uh, it was very emotional, and you just felt all this pressure suddenly lift from you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Was that the greatest professional moment of your career to date?
- CHChristian Horner
Undoubtedly. I mean, the first time I won it, uh, y- you know, I was 35 or something like that, and that was in the (laughs) last race in Abu Dhabi-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- CHChristian Horner
... against the odds with Sebastian Vettel, so that was a unique feeling and it was one of the rare races that Dietrich Mateschitz would, uh, th- uh, actually came to, so for him to be there was very special and, um, that, you know, that was a massive moment for the whole, for the whole company, for the whole business. Uh, but I think having been through the tough times during that period of not just domination, annihilation by one of your opponents, um, to never lose sight of what the end goal was and to fulfill that and to win it on the last lap, I mean, you, you couldn't have written it. Nobody would've believed it. If somebody came up with a script and said, "That's the way this season's gonna pan out," nobody would've-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- CHChristian Horner
... uh, you know, believed it. Um, so for sure it was, y- you know, probably the, uh, the, the biggest moment of my career so far.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And the whole world was watching. I think if people weren't into the F1, someone sent them a text and told them to turn the TV on-
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... at that point. I remember that's certainly what happened with me. I remember getting many messages in, in some of our sports chats on WhatsApp going, "Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh m-" So you turn on the TV and you're watching this last lap and it's just the most crazy...
- CHChristian Horner
It was insane.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- 55:36 – 56:49
Where does your motivation come from
- CHChristian Horner
phenomenal.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Where does your motivation come from? You've won, you've won, you've won. You've gone through a period of, you know, a battle with Mercedes. You've won again. What is driving you now?
- CHChristian Horner
For me, um, uh, you know, there's no better feeling than winning. And when you've won, you wanna win it again and then you wanna win it again. But for me, the next challenge as well is really the next chapter for the company, where not only as a chassis manufacturer but as an engine manufacturer, taking a business from scratch. Build a... We built a factory in 55 weeks. We designed and fired up an engine within 12 months. These are ridiculous timescales that we're operating to. But again, it just typifies the, the, the can-do culture that, you know, that there is within the business. And so for sure, the next challenge for us is as a, as a, as an engine and power unit manufacturer to take on some of these iconic brands. Um, you know, come 2026 when a Red Bull car pulls out of the garage with a Red Bull engine powering it, going up against Ferraris and Mercedes and Audis at the time, and, and so on, it's g- it's gonna be phenomenal.
- 56:49 – 58:45
How important is naivety
- CHChristian Horner
- SBSteven Bartlett
Naivety. You became a principal at a very young age.
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
A lot of incumbents were double your age. A lot of, you know, the... It was quite a, an older business with legacy systems-
- CHChristian Horner
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and ways of doing things. People often view naivety and youth as a disadvantage. How was it... How was your naivety an advantage to you in hindsight?
- CHChristian Horner
I turned it to an advantage because I think people underestimate youth. Um, and for me, age was never a barrier. It was, it was just a number and it's how you apply yourself. So when I came into the sport, I was the youngest team principal in Formula One. I still am to this day, ironically.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Jesus.
- CHChristian Horner
After 18 years.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wow.
- CHChristian Horner
Um, but, you know, there were guys that have been in sport, icons of the sport, you know, whether it was a Bernie Ecclestones or Ron Dennis or Flavio Briatore or Jean Todt running Ferrari and, you know, even Eddie Jordan was still around with, with Jordan, uh, Grand Prix at the time. And all, you know, very entrepreneurial people, but all very different, but very single-minded. And again, it's how you, you conduct yourself. And, um, I didn't go into, you know, into that forum banging tables or anything like that. I, I looked, I listened, and I f- I would say something when I felt I had something to say. Um, and, and you learn as well, you know? You learn from a way that, uh, uh, you know, Ron Dennis conducts himself versus a Flavio Briatore versus a Frank Williams or, you know, Bernie Ecclestone, uh, again, as a complete ringmaster how he operated the business was, uh, you know, was a phenomenal education, you know, for me. And what you saw in each one of those people, it just, uh, presented itself in a very different way, way. It was this ruthless competitiveness.
- 58:45 – 1:04:12
Being a husband and father during all of this
- CHChristian Horner
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you have a ruthless competitiveness, you're obsessed, you wanna win, you're traveling six months a year t- to compete and to win, you're consumed in these external battles with the media and on the track and off the track and with this team and Mercedes and whatever else. How do you then be a husband and a father?
- CHChristian Horner
(laughs) Do you know? That is the one thing that keeps you grounded. Um, and, you know, I'm very fortunate. I've got a, a really, uh, supportive wife, um, who's obviously experienced high pressure situations herself of having to deliver and knowing what the scrutiny of, uh-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Gerry Honeywell 3B.
- CHChristian Horner
... you know, a, a media-operated-
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's it.
- CHChristian Horner
... world is like. So, so she, you know, she's been tremendously, um, you know, supportive. Um, and, you know, I have a, uh, you know, uh, three children. Um, and they're the, they're what keep you grounded. Um, you know, they don't care what you do as a job at, at the end of the day, you know. My, um, eight-year-old daughter is obsessed with horses at the moment. My five-year-old boy is just wanting to, uh, you know, make Lego and F16 fighter planes. Um, and, uh, you know, my 16-year-old daughter suddenly she now understands what I do, and I've actually, in her eyes, almost become cool.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- CHChristian Horner
Um, so but, you know, fam- family is what keeps you, keeps you grounded and it keeps you... Formula One is a very glamorous world from the outside looking in. It can be a lonely place at, at, a- at times. Um, but at the end of the day, we're not saving lives. Um, you know, it's an entertainment, it's a sport, and what really matters, you know, is family at the end of the day. And, uh, and that-... I think makes it more precious in that you don't take it for granted, so the time that I do get with the family, I think it's very important to be present and- and, you know, not to take it for advantage. So, uh, you know, I'll make sure that- that I take, you know, the little one to- to school or pick my daughter up from school on a, uh, o- on a Friday 'cause I wa- I want to be there. I don't wanna be an absent, uh, father, 'cause I'll never get that time- time back. So... And that then is being disciplined-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- CHChristian Horner
... with the management of your own time, 'cause otherwise, you know, uh, your phone's, uh, uh, you know, always next to you, it can take... you know, Formula 1 can take over your life if you're not disciplined in- in, uh, in your own approach.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Are you content?
- CHChristian Horner
Am I content? I'm very content in so many ways, but I'm still extremely hungry. Um, and, you know, when is enough enough? It doesn't feel like it's enough at the moment. Uh...
- SBSteven Bartlett
And it never will be. (laughs)
- CHChristian Horner
And, uh, I think that drives... Y- you know, some people are happy to cruise, others wanna keep- wanna keep pushing and- and, uh, y- you know, I'm... uh, I feel like I've only just got going.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you ever think you will... it will ever be enough?
- CHChristian Horner
Uh, who knows? The problem, you know, th- that you... that certainly happens in- in- in this industry, and I guess is the same in- in others, is that time moves so quickly, you never get five minutes to reflect and look back. You're always looking forward, you know. This championship, the chapter will close, we'll enjoy it for, you know, a couple of evenings and then it's all about the next one, and so you never get time to reflect. So actually sitting here talking (laughs) about some of the stuff in the past, actually, you start to think- to think back. And I think it's- it's only when you get to the end of the journey that then, you know, then, uh, you get time to reflect. And I think, uh, when I get to the end of my journey, I will go away and do something completely different. I'll be a sheep farmer or something like that. But, uh, um, uh, yeah, I think, uh... But I don't see that in- in sight at the moment.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Could you ever imagine there being an end to a journey? Is that something you can foresee now? Could you imagine getting to the day where you think, "Do you know what? Pina colada is for me."
- CHChristian Horner
Do you know what? I- I- I go to work, um, and every day, I enjoy what I do. Um, I- I'm grateful that I'm paid to do a job that actually I'd do it for free because, you know, you enjoy it, you love it. I enjoy working with the people, I enjoy the sport, I enjoy the competition. Uh, I'd probably be completely unemplo- employable in another, uh, form of- o- o- of life. And I think if you've got a passion for something that you do, you do it that much better. Um, and m- yeah, money at the end of the day is- is just a valuation of success. Um, it shouldn't be the reason that you go to work. Um, and, uh, for me, um, uh, you know, while I have that drive, while I have that enjoyment on the bad days as well as the- as well as the good days, that's what, you know, motivates me. And I think maybe there'll become a day one day that, you know, I've had enough, but I- I can't see or envisage that in the near future.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Have you ever been anxious?
- 1:04:12 – 1:08:19
Anxiety
- SBSteven Bartlett
Y- all that press scrutiny, all the pressure you described-
- CHChristian Horner
Uh...
- SBSteven Bartlett
... have you ever had moments of anxiety?
- CHChristian Horner
I think about 10 years ago, uh, when we were in the height of a championship battle, um, back in 2012. I can remember, uh, feeling that- that, uh, you know, my breathing... you know, I became self-conscious of my own breathing. And then when you start thinking about your breathing, uh, you know, you- you- you start overthinking things. And- and for- for me as an ana- I think, "What- what is going..." you know, have I had too much coffee? Did I have a Red Bull or too many Red Bulls, you know, this morning or whatever? And I couldn't identify, you know, what it was. Um, and, uh, it was only, um, uh, you know, when I spoke to the- the team physio, I said, "Well, I'm just f- conscious of my breathing and it's made me feel a bit dizzy and I think I've had too much coffee," and this, that, and the other. He said, "Well, it's probably a bit of anxiety." You know? And- and so I'd never... you know, I thought that was a form of- of weakness.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- CHChristian Horner
Um, and- and then I read about it and I spoke to a couple of people about it. And, you know, you then learn to control your, you know, your breathing and- and- and so on. And, uh, and- and I could then recognize if I felt during that period, this feeling start to come on-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- CHChristian Horner
... you know, just to- to- to- to, you know, to breathe normally, to not take short breaths but to be taking, you know, deep breaths and- and so on. And it sort of crept up on me without, you know, recognizing it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Same.
- CHChristian Horner
And, uh, you know, it's not something... it's n- it- it's not a weakness, it's just your body telling you that, you know, there's a lot going on here-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- CHChristian Horner
... um, and its- its- its way of protesting. Um, and that's what- what was happening to me at- uh, at that time, and I recognized it and managed to, you know, to- to address it. And, um, there's so many ways, whether it's meditation, or just exercise, or- or as I say, breathing, that, uh, um, a- and- a- and- and yeah, I was able to then... if ever I got those symptoms, I was able to- to recognize it and say, "Okay, hello. I know who you are."... you know, I can deal with you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did you ever seek out therapy? Did you ever go, get a therapist? Something I...
- CHChristian Horner
I didn't. I mean, my wife is pretty together with all these things. And, um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Sounds good.
- CHChristian Horner
... she, she'd experienced the same thing whether it was, yeah, before a show or, or, or, you know, some of the stuff they did was insane.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Crazy.
- CHChristian Horner
And, um, and so, you know, she, she helped me, uh, you know, with it. Um, and to, you know, to em- yeah, to em- em- embrace it, to recognize it, to sort out your breathing. I tried meditating and I abso- I got, I-
- SBSteven Bartlett
I couldn't either. (laughs)
- CHChristian Horner
You know. Um, and I admire her 'cause she has the discipline to do that every, you know, every day. Uh, I just haven't got, uh, my mind-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Same.
- CHChristian Horner
... is too, is too active. Um, but, uh, you know, just definitely, um, learning to, to deal with it. And, and it pas- you know, it passed. It was, it was with me for a couple of months and, and, and it passed. And it, I think it was just my body saying, "Okay, stress overload here."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- CHChristian Horner
"You know, give me a break."
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's what everyone's body seems to do. Gary Neville said to me when he was sat here that he'd been going at such a pace for so long that one day after reporting on, I think it was the Arsenal game, he's in the commentary box and he just collapses.
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
He goes to the doctor's. The doctor says, "Listen, Gary. You're going too fast."
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
"You've been doing it for too long. You need to slow down."
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah.
- 1:08:19 – 1:09:59
What are you working on personally?
- SBSteven Bartlett
is, on a personal level, what are you working on? I understand your professional ambitions, it's very clear. But on a personal level, when you think about what you want to improve about yourself with your personal situation, what is, what is that?
- CHChristian Horner
I think it's just trying to be, um, you know, the best father that you can be, the best husband that you can be. Um, I think that, you know, we're all aware of our own mortality, particularly with events like, you know, th- who thought the Queen was gonna-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- CHChristian Horner
... you know, gonna die? With that a- and again, and that just brings it all home to you that, you know, we're, we're on this planet for such a short period of time to, y- you know, do as much as you can with the time that we, that, that we have here. And to, uh, ensure that you make time, um, 'cause we're all, you know, specifically in Formula 1, you're chasing time all the time. Your life is dictated by the, by the stopwatch. But it's important to make time, um, to be able to have, you know, that, that, that, uh, incredibly important family time. Um, and, uh, and yeah, just to be able to, to, to chill out. Uh, which sometimes is difficult to, to be able to relax is sometimes a tough thing to do, especially if you're working at a, you know, o- on a high tempo. But, um, uh, you know, as in work, you can always, you can always be better. You can always do better.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Eddie Hearn said that to me. Obviously his book is ... I know you've spoken to him, but his book is called Relentless, so-
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... he is someone that I don't think is willing to relax a- at any cost. And I hear that quite often.
- 1:09:59 – 1:14:39
The lasts guest question
- SBSteven Bartlett
We have a tradition here where the last gu- guest asks a question for the next guest. They don't know who they're writing it for.
- CHChristian Horner
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And the question that's been written for you is quite an interesting one. I don't get to see it until I open this book. But the question that's been written for you is ... (sighs) and this can be taken in many ways.
- CHChristian Horner
Okay.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How will you control your own greed?
- CHChristian Horner
How will (laughs) I control my own greed? Um, I think greed is ... Greed and jealousy are two very destructive components. Um, and I think ... I've never been a greedy person, but I think-
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're greedy for titles.
- CHChristian Horner
Greedy for titles-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- CHChristian Horner
... um, in that respect. But, I think y- you need to be magnanimous as well. And I think that if you're fortunate enough to, um, you know, achieve success, the most gratifying thing to be able to do is to do something good with it, to empower something, you know, whether it be through charity work or, or just making a difference. Making a difference for, for good 'cause it's not just about the trophies and the, uh, and the plaudits. It sometimes is about doing something good as well.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you spend enough time thinking about that?
- CHChristian Horner
Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
I don't. I'm gonna a- I'm gonna admit I don't.
- CHChristian Horner
We can always do more.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. Exactly.
- CHChristian Horner
You can always do more.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- CHChristian Horner
And when you do something good and, and that can be more rewarding than winning a race and that, the feeling that gives you, you think, "Well, actually, I should do, actually do, do more."
- SBSteven Bartlett
There's a- there's almost a bit of a bias with the mind when you're, when you feel like you're constantly running to keep things moving and throwing coal in the engine, that you think, "I'll do that thing when. I'll be the philanthropist when."
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I remember one day sitting here with someone who said, "The correct approach, Steve, is to make sure you're, you don't cut down the forest and then donate to the bees."
- CHChristian Horner
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're learning to do both at the same time effectively.
- CHChristian Horner
Absolutely.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Thank you so much for your time. Um, incredibly inspiring individual that's reached the very peak of their powers. And there's very few people I can speak to in this country and in the world that have managed to stay at the top of their game championship after championship, whether they win or whether they don't win. And ri- that reinvention and what sits behind that in terms of team and culture and philosophy and a- optimism and attitude is so fascinating to me because winning is one thing, but continuing to win with new people as the world is changing, as regulations are changing around you is a completely different task, especially in such a technical industry like yours where there's so many components that you have to leave to trust. So, it's so inspiring to read your story. Um, and it's so wonderful to see F1 becoming more and more popular in culture because there's so much about it that, um, I think re- teaches us lessons about life and teamwork and all of these really important fundamentals. Um, and yeah, it's a, it's an honor to meet you as well because from an entrepreneurial business standpoint, you're an inspiration to me for so many reasons. So, thank you for the conversation today. Thank you for being so honest and open. And I appreciate your time.
- CHChristian Horner
No, thank you very much. I've enjoyed it. (upbeat music)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Quick one. As you might know, Crafted are one of the sponsors of this podcast and they make really meaningful pieces of jewelry. This lion piece they've made, I wear all the time, along with the little time piece, the sand timer, that I wear often. And the lion piece, you might have seen Conor McGregor has a similar piece, which was custom made for him. For me, it represents courage. And if you walk through my house, the house that I'm in right now, if you walk six feet in that direction, you'll see a huge lion portrait. If you go upstairs, you'll see a lion portrait. If you look behind me on the shelf, near the top there, you'll see a lion as well. The reason my house and my life is surrounded by lions is because they represent courage, calmness, and that tenacity that I've applied to my business success, to my professional life, and to everything in between. For me, the lion has always been an animal that can be almost a bit of a contradiction. They are so loving and so caring of their own and can be powerful and courageous when necessary in order to achieve what they wanna achieve. So, if you, like me, are a big fan of courage, bravery, ambition, while also being calm and composed, check out this lion piece and let me know if you get it. (upbeat music)
Episode duration: 1:14:39
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