The Marketing Genius Behind Nike: Greg Hoffman | E150

1. 0:00 – 1:29

   Intro

   1. GHGreg Hoffman0:00

      I was told that the KKK was gonna get me, and that's frightening when you're a child. (dramatic music)

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:08

      Chief marketing officer to vice president of global brand, an almost three-decade career at Nike.

   3. GHGreg Hoffman0:12

      That's right, yeah. You know, Nike was really the only brand that was putting people of color in their communication. That showed me you could make a living doing what you love.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:24

      Why is the Air Force 1 shoe an example of Nike not chasing cool?

   5. GHGreg Hoffman0:28

      It wasn't created to make a statement in culture. It was created to make a statement on the court, and the fact that Moses Malone won on the court in the Air Force 1, that's cool. Your authenticity is your cultural currency. The minute your audience can no longer see your original pursuit, they partner with someone else.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett0:50

      April 2021, significant month for you in your life?

   7. GHGreg Hoffman0:54

      I got a DM through 23andMe, and that opened up meeting my birth families. The last thing you'd want to be is rejected, and it was just, uh... (sighs) .

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:11

      So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO, USA Edition. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (light music)

2. 1:29 – 15:19

   Childhood, racism and finding your voice

   1. SBSteven Bartlett1:29

      Greg, I'm a tremendous believer in the fact that our early years are incredibly formative.

   2. GHGreg Hoffman1:35

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett1:36

      What are the things that really left a remaining mark on you in terms of their influence as an experience, or an event, or trauma?

   4. GHGreg Hoffman1:44

      Yes. Again, I had two passions growing up, uh, sport and art. And really, uh, why I got involved in art, and art of all sorts, whether it was drawing, painting, sculpting, is growing up as a half-Black, half-white adopted kid into a white family, going to an all-white school system, and experiencing, uh, lots of adversity through racism and, and other things, art was the thing that I was ex- able to essentially escape from reality and find myself in, in the art. And that's when I started to discover that I could draw things in accurate detail, you know? I could dream and then put that on paper, and it was very powerful, and it was a way for me to, you know, not only feel empowered, uh, but also, um, engage my imagination. And then sport as well, you know, sport evens the playing field, if you will. And so that was essentially the other escape where I felt like I wasn't such an outsider on that. And so I think when you experience, uh, adversity like that, when you're oftentimes the only one in the room, um, which I think you can relate to even, even today, um, you also look out for other outsiders, you know? You're keeping an eye on other groups or other individuals that, um, haven't been invited, if you will. And so you're right, I took those, uh, experiences, uh, because they never leave you. No matter how much success you have, um, you carry some of those chips on your shoulder, but it doesn't have to be used as a negative. Uh, and so as I made my way through life, um, and found myself in the pos- in positions, um, of influence, I looked out for those individuals on that. Because again, when, when I grew up in the, the late '70s and early '80s, you were taught to not see color, right? That was that period of time, which means how can you be empathetic if your parents or those that are there to support you, teachers aren't seeing how- what your experience is like.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett3:57

      Mm-hmm.

   6. GHGreg Hoffman3:57

      So I love today where that is not the case, and you do need to see people for how they identify themselves to better equip and empower them...

   7. SBSteven Bartlett4:08

      Mm-hmm.

   8. GHGreg Hoffman4:08

      ... to achieve, you know, their hopes and dreams.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett4:11

      When you're young and you're different in some way, we can all probably relate to being different in some way when we're younger, but not everybody can relate to what it feels like to be racially abused when you're young, and the confusion, the, you know, the inadequacy, whatever it might be that that leaves you with. Can you recall the first time someone racially abused you when you were younger?

   10. GHGreg Hoffman4:33

       Absolutely. Uh, I was actually in kindergarten and, uh, it started happening every day. I was told that the KKK was gonna get me. Now, I didn't know what the Ku Klux Klan, the KKK was, but I did know that I was the only person that they were saying it to. And then you'd come into school the next day and you'd hear this, "The KKK is gonna get you." And that's quite frightening when you're a child, right? Um, and, um, you're, you're in that situation alone and you, you don't necessarily have the individuals that you could talk to about it. So essentially, you kind of, you, you bottle that up. And that was the first situation. And the issue oftentimes with, with kids certainly, uh, you know, during that particular time is you identify people through their appearance, right, uh, on that. And for me, I just hadn't developed a voice to fight with my voice. So obviously, it resulted in a lot of altercations throughout my early life and in- even into my teenage life, because it took me a while to develop a voice to be able to combat that with words, right? Um, so that was the beginning, but it didn't take long to, uh, start hearing the N-word shortly thereafter.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett5:57

       In high school?

   12. GHGreg Hoffman5:58

       Uh, in grade school.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett5:59

       In grade school.

   14. GHGreg Hoffman6:00

       And so, again, though I, I share those moments more as a way of, of telling people that, you know, make sure you're looking beyond what's on the surface. This is... gets back to great brand building. Don't just look at the assumptions and observations that we all see. You gotta look beyond that to see how people really are experiencing and f- feeling within their life. And you, you saw that come to life in some of the campaigns that I worked on, right? Stand Up, Speak Up campaign with Thierry Henry was all about fighting racism, that you act- that's invisible. You can't see it, but the players are hearing it. I want this to be uplifting, (laughs) but I think it's important, to your point, to understand where we come from. And our adversity doesn't need to necessarily be something that holds us back. It can be fuel, um, for the way we are motivated to get to those points where we're, we're putting work out in the world or helping others so that they don't have to go through that.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett7:08

       You reference your art in the book as, as being a bit of an escape for you in the early years. What was your art? What was it? Was it design? Was it photography? What was your art?

   16. GHGreg Hoffman7:18

       My parents didn't have much, um, but, um, th- I ha- they really invested in my passion for, for art and design, um, and I shared a bedroom with, uh, my two brothers, small bedroom. And so imagine three beds, and then there were three other elements in this bedroom, okay? One was my drafting table and desk, where I drew all the time. Second was a, a sand-filled weightlifting set that just sat in the middle.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett7:45

       (laughs)

   18. GHGreg Hoffman7:46

       And then finally, my parents, which is, um, pretty innovative, they just basically left a, a wall white and they put a wood frame around that entire wall, and they said, "This is your mural and you can paint or draw anything you want on it." Right? And again, cramped space. I just want you to think about-

   19. SBSteven Bartlett8:04

       Mm-hmm.

   20. GHGreg Hoffman8:04

       ... like three kids in here. So I would draw sports logos, baseball, football, hockey logos on this. This is one of my obs- obsession with branding, um, and the art of how powerful and, and how logos and symbols can connect and create so much story and emotion. And then the other thing I drew all the time was superheroes, 'cause I was obsessed with comic books and that idea of heroics and athleticism. But within that, I, I started to understand how your art can communicate, and through those logos and the visual communication that, um, I saw, um, within the world of sports started to pique my interest, uh, in, in doing this. And, um, I'll take it a step further. Um, I got really lucky. Uh, when I was, uh, 15, I got a job in a warehouse at a small publishing company, just in the warehouse after school and throughout the summer just packing books into boxes. But I noticed that there was an art department in this place, and I'm not sure where I got the courage but somehow I did. I went in and I, I said, "Hey, is it possible for me to spend part of the time in this art department and part of it in the warehouse?" You a- you ha- you have to put yourself out there to ask. I learned th- that at that point, and they said yes. And so suddenly, I was shoulder to shoulder as a 15-year-old with, uh, art directors and writers and creative directors and, and storytellers. And then by the next year, I spent all my time in the art department, and not only in there doing menial tasks. They were having me do illustrations. They were having me do page layouts. Again, this is pre-computer. So, um, that showed me at an early age that you could make a living, um, uh, doing what you love. What are you passionate about? Um, because up until that point, I wasn't necessarily sure how you could essentially, um, you know, make a living doing that. So that, that was kind of my earliest stage in terms of art as commerce-

   21. SBSteven Bartlett10:21

       Mm-hmm.

   22. GHGreg Hoffman10:21

       ... if you will, was within the publishing arena. But what it did do is it gave me a shortcut to, to start to focus on that, so by the time I got to college, I knew that I wanted to be a designer.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett10:36

       You knew you wanted to be a designer?

   24. GHGreg Hoffman10:38

       That's right, yeah.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett10:39

       And you, and you st- went on and studied design at college, graduated, and then the story as I, as I heard it is you basically get two internships post-graduation. You get a call from Nike. Nike say that they've got this urgent position. You've gotta drop everything and come now and start at Nike, and that starts... I know I've skipped a, a process there, but-

   26. GHGreg Hoffman10:59

       Yeah.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett10:59

       ... that starts an almost three decade career at Nike.

   28. GHGreg Hoffman11:02

       That's right, yeah.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett11:03

       Where you move from... What was your first role at Nike called? Do you remember?

   30. GHGreg Hoffman11:07

       Just a graphic design intern.
3. 15:19 – 24:50

   What makes Nike successful?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett15:19

      Brands, companies, teams, they, over time, learn what's making them successful and lean further and further into that. Uh, so I'm wondering, uh, in your 30 years at Nike, what did you see Nike realize while you were there and lean more into, in terms of the values of the organization, how it operates from a marketing perspective, a culture perspective, or whatever? Do you, do you understand what I'm trying to say? Like...

   2. GHGreg Hoffman15:39

      Sure. Well, first and foremost, I think, and, uh, uh... you know, I, I'm a brand advisor now with established mans- brands and startups. And, you know, what, what Nike had from the beginning is such a clear brand house, if you will. Its belief, its mission, its vision, its values. You know, where are you going? How are you gonna get there? What do you believe? What's your promise to your audience? And what are the characteristics and traits that compose your brand and that pursuit, um, to deliver inspiration and innovation to, to everyone? And so it's... imagine the power of that in terms of everyone is clear as they walk through the door to show up to work why they're there. And I say this because a lot of brands can't say that. A lot of startups haven't even got there yet, because they're just trying to perfect their product and get it to market. And so, first and foremost, this idea that authenticity and serving the athlete is the anchor at all times. So even though you're trying to be maybe the most influential and coolest brand on Earth, you know, and there's an art to doing that, um, you always have to go back and ensure that, um, it serves the athlete in the, the deepest way possible. And that's why, you know, maybe we'll get to this later, but, um, I always use that mantra, "Don't chase cool," because, uh, most likely you're not gonna catch it. And that idea that your, your authenticity, in terms of what I've learned over and over again, keep going back to, your authenticity is your cultural currency. The minute your audience can no longer see your original pursuit, and every company's a bit different, is the day they kind of leave you and go f-... go engage and partner with someone else.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett17:38

      And that's in part because you've left yourself, right? In, in the pursuit...

   4. GHGreg Hoffman17:41

      Yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett17:41

      ... of cool. You've abandoned your authenticity. You talk about that in chapter six of your book, Emotion By Design, which is out now. You talk about the Air Force 1 in that chapter as an example of success in that realm. So why is the Air Force 1 shoe an example of Nike not chasing cool?

   6. GHGreg Hoffman17:59

      Well, first and foremost, uh, it's an innovation that was created in 1982, um, that was th-...created to serve the basketball athlete, right? It wasn't created to make a statement in culture. It was created to make a statement on the court, and the designer was obsessed with creating something that gave that athlete an advantage. And it's really hard to create, if you want any chance for a product to ultimately become a cultural icon, if you will, and by the way, brands don't get to decide that, you know, your audience does over time, then you must, the, the, the inception and creation of that product has to start with what's the benefit that you're trying to deliver? What's the problem you're trying to solve? So that's, that's part one, and the fact that someone like Moses Malone, who was a center for the Phillies- Philadelphia 76ers at the time, you know, won on the court in the Air Force 1, so that's cool. That's proving that inno- innovation right out of the gates. And so from there, as it grew in stature, um, what was great about all the teams that played a role across all the different disciplines at Nike to bring this to market every year is all of the storytelling was rooted in authenticity. This colorway came from this basketball court. This colorway was from this New York outdoor court, um, and this player scored X amount of points. You know, the stories are rooted in an emotion, like, and you as a, uh, enthusiast for this sneaker got to take part in a little bit of that. And as I talk about in the book, you know, at some point, stories no longer, you know, belong only to the brand. They get passed down. Um, and so, um, the Air Force 1 is interesting because this year, again, it was the, the highest selling sneaker out there, and so it's very accessible, and yet it's also, you could argue, the most, um, culturally relevant sneaker as well, and so it's aspirational. And so my point is that's by design. You're, you're ensuring that there's a level of the authentic storytelling and that those that you're partnering with, the ambassadors if you will, that show up in your communication, um, on that have a, have a, a, a real, um, connection and affinity for the Air Force 1, just like Kendrick Lamar grew up with the Nike Cortez sneaker, very real relationship with a shoe that's very much a part of L.A. And so when we partnered with Kendrick Lamar, it's coming from a shared passion, and that authenticity comes through to your, your audience, right? When it doesn't, that's when it, it, it feels like you're chasing cool. Um, and so I always say just make sure your connections are, are really, really clear to your audience in terms of who you partner with, what is the, the, the real purpose of your product beyond all the, the shiny new, um, partnerships and other things you can do. You still have to kind of go back to its, its roots.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett21:32

      An example of where a brand has, uh, has not done that well, can you think of a couple off the top of my... Well, u- for some reason I thought of that, uh, that Pepsi advert. I know it was a tragedy for so many reasons, but when they got one of those Kardashians to kind of hold the, the Pepsi can in that social justice scene, that riot scene, you couldn't as an audience member understand why that Kad- Kardashian was stood there apparently as the, the cure to a social justice issue holding a can of... It all felt un- un- disjointed and inauthentic.

   8. GHGreg Hoffman22:02

      Yeah, because you have to be able to connect what you sell to what the world needs in a specific moment when it comes to social impact or social justice. So whether you're a, a food and beverage company, an automobile company, a sneaker company, if you want to, uh, participate in that conversation and, you know, break down barriers and empower people or change the way people feel about a particular issue, it's, for Nike you had to speak through the lens of sport. That's the connection, right? And I think when you see a brand maybe miss, you know, sometimes you might be watching TV and you'll see an ad and it's clear that this, whoever this brand is, that they are trying to create positive change in the world, but you can't figure it out, and it's not until the, the end that you see the logo. You're like, "Okay, I don't get the connection." And so the point is, is like you, you, you have to start by saying, um, is what's happening in this situation uh, relate to our values and our mission? And then if it does, what new unique insight are we bringing to the conversation that's not already being talked about? And then finally, the, the, the other thing, Steven, is, is, um, 'cause I think sometimes the default is we need to say something as a brand when there are so many other ways that you can engage and, and be a part of the conversation, right? And, um, just, just look at what Epic Games did in terms of taking the, uh, revenue from Fortnite over a period of time and making donations to Ukraine relief.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett23:46

      Mm-hmm.

   10. GHGreg Hoffman23:46

       They didn't do an ad, but they found a way that was authentic to them to, you know, create an opportunity that's gonna help a lot of people, um, in a really tough situation right now. So that's the thing. When I'm talking to, to brands, it's like they just... Number one, it's like storytelling isn't always, um, the example, advertising, in terms of, you know, social impact statements, um, and, um, part one, and part two, you, you must...... um, ensure that, um, what you wanna say clearly comes through, um, who you are as a brand and what you bring into the world. That's why I say connect what you sell with what the world needs. If you can't do that, then most likely you need to think about kind of moving into a different arena. So those are... When, when I see something maybe that's tone-deaf or it's not, um, you know, it's usually because it's just simply not on brand, and it's confusing to your audience.

4. 24:50 – 31:07

   How to create a winning work culture

   1. GHGreg Hoffman24:50

   2. SBSteven Bartlett24:50

      Much of the, the things we'll talk about, I'm sure, are underpinned by a topic you talk about in the t- in the book in chapter two, which is teams and culture. Um, that kind of underpins everything. You, you referenced how when people walk in the door at Nike, it's quite clear that there's a... They have clarity of culture in terms of why they're there and what they're, what they're doing there, et cetera. You were at Nike for almost 30 years. Um, had a lot of people working underneath you. Um, you observed that organization from various perspectives. How does one build a culture that wins on its objective, and how do they... And how does someone keep that culture and police it and protect it from scale and, you know, harm and... Yeah.

   3. GHGreg Hoffman25:30

      Yeah. No, it's a, it's a great, great point, um, 'cause, you know, creative collaboration, uh, is unique because oftentimes, uh, creativity and innovation is a, a very personal pursuit, right? It can get pretty territorial. You know, you're, you've spent a lot of time on this and, you know, you're, you, you, you want insurance, essentially, that you, you get credit. And so a lot of what you're doing is trying to instill both self-confidence and self-awareness, um, so that... And you're trying to eliminate kind of the silos and, and independent kind of studios, you, y- if you will. Um, I was given this awesome opportunity to run all the creative functions at Nike, you know? Here's the coolest, most influential brand. And so my job was to take advertising and digital marketing and brand design and event marketing and retai- take all these groups that had worked independently for quite some time, where the integration took a lot of work with really long passes, and I, I used this example frequently, and I'm sure it drove my, my teams crazy, but I used, uh, FC Barcelona as an example of radical creative collaboration, you know? Their style of play, the tiki-taka. It's all those short passes. There's n- there's no waiting. Everybody's moving around the field at the same time. And I would show the team these clips of this, you know, Pep Guardiola's FC Barcelona team passing the ball 40, 50, 60 times in a game in a row without interruption, okay? And then how does that happen? It's because, you could say, radical selflessness, right? The goal is to s- literally, the pursuit is still to put the goal in, uh, the net. Um, you need the buy-in. And my job was to make sure that I was there with the empathy needed to recognize the contributions of everybody but, but to also ask people to make the sacrifice so that we could run faster, um, be more timely, um, create more distinctive work, and ultimately, as things a- are going, the consumer expects everything in their life to be connected, right? They, the last thing they would want to hear about is that, um, there are these really long handoffs between agencies and brands and departments and that's why the work is kind of disjointed. You can't have that. You'll, you'll lose your consumers. So part of it is, is creating this, um, connected team, this, this one team, that, that operated, um, with great chemistry, just like the, the greatest, um, teams in the world on that. And, and maybe one other piece to that was this, this idea of individuality, and so for, for that... And again, I'm telling you, I'm sure there's folks out there that got tired of seeing my, my, um, parallels with the sport of football, but the Brazil national team was a team that I h- had, you know, this, this 25-year relationship with, starting as an intern, right? And what's great about the Brazil national team is that, um, they played with the ginga style, which means to sway. And ginga is, is, you know, the influences of that style of play comes from capoeira, you know, Brazilian martial arts, and samba, um, but, um, it emphasized, uh, the individual eccentricities of the players, um. We've all watched Brazil over the years. We've been enthralled by them, and sometimes they drive us a bit mad because maybe there's a bit of disorganization, but at the end of the day, they've won five World Cups, more than any other team, and that's because they value the diversity and ex- the, the perspective and experience and expertise of each individual player. And so, yes, there's structure to that team, um, yes, there's an expectation that, um, there's a level of precision, but they allow improv, they allow spontaneity to reveal opportunity throughout those games, and that's why oftentimes anywhere you go in the world, it's someone's second-favorite team beyond the club that they support. And so that was another point of inspiration that I used to lead these, these massive teams, right? You're talking about just the scale of, of Nike in terms of the output of, of creative around the world. You needed to still have a high degree of operational excellence to run something a-... like that. But I wanted to make sure that you were incentivized to take risks, um, you had the space to be able to present ideas that may not be on the plan, um, and you had a receptive executive team that was willing to hear from you. And that's why there's so many examples of the book, um, of work that wasn't briefed, of work that was just a conversation with a couple people who were empowered to visualize that idea and then put it out in the world, many of them, um, ideas that had great scale and are still around today. So, um, that's just a little insight in terms of how I looked at building that chemistry.

5. 31:07 – 34:56

   How do you incentivize risk?

   1. GHGreg Hoffman31:07

   2. SBSteven Bartlett31:07

      How did you incentivize risk or dis-incentivize risk aversion?

   3. GHGreg Hoffman31:13

      So that's a, it's a great call. And, and again, I, I'm still figuring it out.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett31:18

      Mm-hmm.

   5. GHGreg Hoffman31:18

      Um, because think about it. You're, you're asking individuals, um, right brain and left brain thinkers, to essentially... You're, you're saying, I said this often, "We're gonna develop four different concepts this quarter. And they're gonna be outside of our normal workload, because again, we have to deliver the business-"

   6. SBSteven Bartlett31:44

      Mm-hmm.

   7. GHGreg Hoffman31:44

      "... front and center. We can't get distracted from that. But alongside of that, we're gonna visualize and prototype four ideas. But you know what? Only one of them probably will have a chance." So that's not for everyone, right? O-oftentimes people only wanna work on things that have almost 100% certainty of finding their way in the world, you know?

   8. SBSteven Bartlett32:07

      Mm-hmm.

   9. GHGreg Hoffman32:07

      And I had to condition everyone to ensure that they were, were comfortable taking the big swings. And part of that is seeing the end results. Like, again, let's look at the last two years. You see this particular concept that is now in, you know, 500 stores around the world. You know, it's one example, but the House ex- of Hoops example. We had a conversation about, how could we create a store specific to basketball that had the same level of passion and energy that a kid's room would have if they loved basketball? You go into a kid's room, they would have posters and so much inspiration and objects and pictures that really express their passion. And yet, how come you go into a store oftentimes and it might just be shoes on, on a wall, and you're not feeling the story and the legacy of that? And so rendering that up and knowing that in three days you could have an audience with the president of the company. And not only that, you could get a go/no-go that quickly of, "Well, let's, let's try this concept in the wild." And then lo and behold, in less than two years, you have 300 of those stores around the world. So all you need is a couple of those examples to say, "Okay, well, I'd like to participate in that." Um, and, um, I buy into this idea that not everything we're gonna do is g- is gonna make it. But why I say that I'm still trying to figure it out is, is it is hard to convince some people that failure is what leads to success. That... And if I can use this example, it's not in the book but it's literally my favorite commercial ad of all time, and it's Michael Jordan's 9,000 shots. And amazing, uh, commercial from 1997.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett34:10

       Wow.

   11. GHGreg Hoffman34:10

       And the Wieden+Kennedy Agency sat down with him and learned that Michael had missed 9,000 shots, 26 times he was asked to take the game-winning shot and he missed. And he said, "Yet I failed over and over again, but that's why I succeed." And that's the spirit of risk-taking in the innovation space. You need, you need to take the shot, 'cause even if you miss it, success will come down the road. And so that's what I try to instill, uh, with my team.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett34:44

       Quick one. We bring in eight people a month to watch these conversations live here in the studio when we're here in the UK and when we're in LA. If you wanna be one of those people, all you've gotta do is hit subscribe.

6. 34:56 – 41:34

   Necessity sparks innovation

   1. SBSteven Bartlett34:57

      Chapter 3 of your book, the title is Never Play It Safe, Play To Win, which is very much in line with what you're talking about there. And I think one of the, the more interesting concepts, uh, which, which was mentioned in the book which I could really relate to was how you say that some of Nike's boldest ideas came when the team had no time or resources. And actually that's really what founded my company, to be honest, 'cause, uh, we ran out of money, so all of the conventional marketing, um, channels were out of budget, so we were left to figure something else out. And that's when we started thinking about social media in 2012.

   2. GHGreg Hoffman35:32

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett35:32

      And it was free. We could put time in and get a big return, and off we went, and that started my company, which now, you know, m- ended up making $700 million, whatever it is this year it'll make. Um, and that was when we ran out of money, our best ideas came. So when I read that I thought, "Oh, this is interesting."

   4. GHGreg Hoffman35:48

      So, so true. So often... Uh, and also I put a, yeah, timeline and a budget, um, or lack of budget, but a strict timeline can be amazing, right?

   5. SBSteven Bartlett35:58

      Do, do you always do timelines? I was gonna ask you that as well. Do you al- always make sure projects have timelines?

   6. GHGreg Hoffman36:02

      Not necessarily, but, um, but I like to put a timeline on how quickly you visualize a conversation.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett36:10

      Okay.

   8. GHGreg Hoffman36:10

      Um, that is... I can't say this enough, and if I have one suggestion to smaller brands or even startups as they're starting to expand, it's like, when you have a conversation, like d- build a... Either build internally-...or have a relationship with an agency that can take your conversations and the ideas you have and quickly visualize them in a visceral way. So... And you've heard it before, a picture says a thousand words. And the problem oftentimes with businesses that maybe are a bit, uh, bureaucratic is, you and I could have a conversation about a cool idea and then three months go by and we see each other again, it's like, "You know, what happened to that idea?" "Uh, I don't know." Well, no one took ownership of it, one, and two, I would walk out of those conversations over and over again. I'd walk over to the visualization team and I said, "Let's, let's come back to the team and surprise them in three days with either an image, or a short GIF, or a film, or even, uh, oftentimes, um, an app prototype that was working." Um, if I didn't do that, um, then mo- more often than not, you might forget that the conversations ever happened. So I'd... I went on that tangent just to say, um, I think it's incredibly effective, these brands, large and small, that have visualization capability, um, and that everyone understands why that's a competitive advantage. Um, and so many of the concepts, um, that were brought to life in this book, um, you know, came out of the speed at which we brought the idea to life. It wasn't, "Well, our agency's too busy, so maybe two months from now we can talk to them about, you know, this, this, this new, um, NFT idea we have." No. It's like, how about start to riff on some of those ideas, um, so that you're first to play in that, in that sector on that. So t- I, I guess... And maybe if I can just... You know, there's one story in this book which was th- the Ronaldinho, one of my favorite footballers of all time. But yeah, we were launching a, a boo- a new boot and, um, there was no time and quite frankly, there really wasn't a budget, or it wasn't talked about, right? But, um, born out of this urgency, um, was this very, uh, resourceful, uh, approach to storytelling which was to shoot Ronaldinho with a video camera essentially, getting these new soccer boots, football boots on the pitch and then proceeding to do that old game that we all played growing up of Crossbar where you're sitting kind of, you know, just under midfield and you're trying to kick the ball and hit that top of the crossbar. Only in this video, Ronaldinho's able to do it th- you know, two, three different times without the ball hitting the ground, and I'll leave it to the audience to figure out if it was real or not. The point is, is that, you know... And not only did we not have time but, um, there was a young platform that had just started to emerge called YouTube and... Yeah, the team dropped this particular video of Ronaldinho, uh, on the platform and, um, lo and behold, uh, it becomes the first brand film to reach a million views, right? And quite frankly, all because there was no money, no time, and the team had to be unbelievably resourceful to, to create something that would make people want to watch, and that gets back to emotion by design. I want to emphasize this, is that I think the best brands ask the question, "How do I want this work, uh, to make the consumer feel about themselves and make them feel empowered to go and do great things?" Does the work kind of engage and stir emotions in that way where people feel that they can go out and do it or not? Does it create indifference or... Um, because look, look, there's just... And I'm not saying... The speed at which we're having conversations now with, between brands and audiences is in real time and you're not gonna be able to create everything as a hit, you know? There's not enough time, money, et cetera. Um, but you should have someone in the room that's representing your brand story, that's representing, um, the emotional qualities that can be released through your work 'cause if that person isn't in the room and it's just someone looking at it as content that needs to be distributed, th- th- that's, that's not very human. The stronger the emotional connections, the bigger status your brand is gonna have most likely in culture and therefore, the more opportunities you would have to step beyond the business to have a real impact in the world on, on some of the most pressing issues of our time. So I do believe there's a process to, to, to achieving that.

7. 41:34 – 45:41

   Creating emotional connections

   1. GHGreg Hoffman41:34

   2. SBSteven Bartlett41:34

      To create a strong emotional connection with someone else, I'm presuming you have to take a strong emotional stance yourself often. So I'm just thinking about the things that have r- evoked the strongest emotional connections with anything I do, the things that have evoked the strongest emotional connections with this podcast and its audience are strong emotional stories. But that, when you do that, when you avoid indifference, you are, um, putting yourself in line for potential criticism and attacks and you're gonna polarize people.

   3. GHGreg Hoffman42:04

      That's right.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett42:04

      Some people are gonna love and hate you. How important has that been for Nike and how important is it for a person starting a podcast or a business or leading a team or whatever else?

   5. GHGreg Hoffman42:14

      For a brand like Nike it was... You know, look at the athletes that represented the brand, um, early on. I mean, they were, were all rebels, you know, within their own sports and, and so, you know, this idea of def- And, you know, having a, a, a maxim within the company that was defy convention...Right? So your, your, your values kind of say, it's like, yeah, there are gonna be things we do with conviction that may be polarizing, but it is the deep belief we have in those things, and as long as we always relate them back to sport and this, this idea of, of, you know, serving the athlete, um, then we're willing to go there. Um, and if we're not clearly tethered to, you know, what we say and what we do, then we would deserve the critique and the criticism. So I think you can, for any small or large company that's kind of s- you know, that's wrestling with this, that maybe wants to kind of go beyond, um, just the transactions and truly move into that arena where you really are having real relationships with your audience, that their affinity for you comes from the fact that they're getting meaningful benefits, whether those are mental or physical, um, that a- are allowing them to progress in life, you know? When you reach that status, I believe indifference isn't an option right now. I believe we need to look to brands that have that level of success, and again, it's not about scale 'cause there's plenty of small brands, you know, mom and pop brands, that are doing great things through their business to affect the lives of peop- underserved communities. But again, so much of what we're talking about is authenticity, even, even doing this book, it's, it's like, well, you know, how much social media should I do and on this platform, does that seem like I'm inauthentic? And like, I, as l- so at the end of the day, um, 'cause I'm driving people crazy with these questions-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett44:30

      (laughs) .

   7. GHGreg Hoffman44:31

      ... is that, 'cause, uh, you know, I'm not the most public person, right? But, but as long as I speak to, from the, the s- center, uh, and the anchor of the power of creativity in business and its ability to change the world and make that connection clear, and then if people are pissed off about that, then, then it is what it is. Um, but more often than not, look at some of the most successful brands and they're, they're, it's, it's made their own business successful. It's accelerated their growth. And so that's where I get into this, um, you know, yeah, our primary goal, certainly for a public company, is to drive growth, um, both from a brand and business standpoint. But more and more I believe that, within that, you have to integrate this, you know, being a great corporate citizen, um, and using your platform to, to, to, you know, provide your innovation and your inspiration to those that, quite frankly, don't have the access and opportunity to get it.

8. 45:41 – 55:03

   Finding the right story & branding to make your business succeed

   1. GHGreg Hoffman45:41

   2. SBSteven Bartlett45:41

      How do I find which story to tell? Because if I'm, if I'm running this podcast and I'm thinking, okay, I, I need to do the logo, the branding, I need to position it in a way that's gonna be... This is c- typically the, the way the brain thinks. It's trying, it's... The outcome is success and it's trying to figure out which story to tell to get me to success. So, how do I make this podcast successful? How would you go about knowing m- where and how to find that story in your business brand team, whatever it is, um, and which one is the right one to tell to get the outcome I'm looking for, which is success?

   3. GHGreg Hoffman46:13

      The success to me is that it's not overly packaged. The success to me is that the transparency and au- authenticity of the conversations and that, um, there's a rawness to it, and that's, that is branding. Sometimes it's the, the lack of design, if you will, is the very thing that makes something successful.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett46:39

      100%.

   5. GHGreg Hoffman46:40

      Versus there's, there's, uh, you know, there's go-to, um, it's always the same questions. And so that, that's the one thing I, I really appreciate about what you're doing, is this, again, back to this, this being human, um, as, as a, um, being human and creating emotion. Um, and part of that is just do, so that people can, you know, see themselves in you or us, um, and that the... Yeah, I mean, that- that's- that's what I would say. It's less about, um, sometimes, uh, the traditional aspects of, of branding-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett47:22

      Mm-hmm.

   7. GHGreg Hoffman47:23

      ... which is, uh, I wanna make sure the frame of every podcast has the color gold and it must, you know? So, and again, I'm saying this as, as someone who's s- oftentimes been pretty rigid in terms of t- to grow some of these businesses. Um, to own a brand color, if you will, uh, j- and pick your, pick your favorite brand, there's a level of repetition needed, um, to build that kind of equity in a typeface, in a color, um, in a, in a logo. You need to build that brand frame, right? Oftentimes startups almost skip that. It's like, no, go back. It's like really build your brand, uh, identifiers, your brand elements, right? 'Cause that's your picture frame, and the stronger the picture fra- frame, the more the picture in it is gonna shine. The weaker that frame, then your, uh, the picture within it is kind of, it's, it's just, it's not on a, on solid ground-

   8. SBSteven Bartlett48:24

      Mm-hmm.

   9. GHGreg Hoffman48:25

      ... if that makes sense.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett48:25

       Yeah, yeah.

   11. GHGreg Hoffman48:26

       And so that's why in the book I talk about the picture and the frame and ensuring that the frame never outshines the picture. That's what I'm getting at is like, um, you're, you're, when you're thinking about brand, brand elements and how best to express those through the different platforms, um, it's the right question. But making sure that they don't take away from the actual storytelling...... within it-

   12. SBSteven Bartlett48:54

       Yeah.

   13. GHGreg Hoffman48:54

       ... which is the picture, yeah.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett48:55

       Which happens a lot. For me, so some things that we do intentionally to try and communicate the, (smacks lips) I guess, the heart of what we're, we're doing on this podcast, for example, in the branding, so one of the things is we always make sure it feels like home.

   15. GHGreg Hoffman49:10

       Yeah.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett49:10

       So it's in... Whether we're in LA or in London, it's actually shot in my actual kitchen on a very similar looking table. People are actually surprised it looks exactly the same.

   17. GHGreg Hoffman49:19

       Yeah.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett49:19

       But we always shoot it at home because I think the conversations we're having are h- homely ones.

   19. GHGreg Hoffman49:24

       Yeah.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett49:24

       They're the ones people have at home. They're not ones that we... You know, we could, we could go do this in a massive studio.

   21. GHGreg Hoffman49:28

       Right.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett49:29

       But it wouldn't be in line with our values. The other thing is it's dark in here, so that speaks to the subject matter. Sometimes it speaks to secrets. The other thing is obviously the, the title of the podcast is The Diary of a CEO, and you, you ask yourself what one might keep in a diary, it tends to be things that are a little bit deeper.

   23. GHGreg Hoffman49:44

       Yeah.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett49:44

       Uh, and there's all these-

   25. GHGreg Hoffman49:45

       Right.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett49:45

       ... small things. You know, and we, we even... I mean, we spent many days this week, me and Jack, debating removing the microphones because it kills what the humanness of authentic-

   27. GHGreg Hoffman49:55

       Mm. Mm-hmm.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett49:56

       ... communication, so we're thinking about ways where we can have the microphones hanging where you... where you can remove the barrier.

   29. GHGreg Hoffman50:00

       Sure.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett50:01

       And all these small things. And I guess, is that the frame? Is, is... Or, or when you think about brand elements, are you talking more about, like, colors and things like that?
9. 55:03 – 57:51

   Attention to detail

   1. GHGreg Hoffman55:03

   2. SBSteven Bartlett55:04

      I'm really compelled by, and I talked to my team a lot about this, about this. And you've mentioned it twice now, this, the importance of details. From your, w- your 30 years of, at Nike, how did you make sure teams cared about the detail? Is it just continually reminding them? Is there something else we can do to make sure that our teams and the people we work with, and ourselves even, are really valuing the smallest of details?

   3. GHGreg Hoffman55:27

      Yeah. I do th- I do believe in pu- publishing, whether it's, you wanna call it an ethos, a manifesto, um, a set of principles, where you clearly articulate what your design standards are or your creative standards. Um, I've always believed that. And they, they can change over time, but I'm a big believer in publishing, um, thought, publishing ideals that, that you have. And I'll go even further, um, because what I learned over the years is, is I was doing a little bit too much self authorship. When I really started to manage teams, I'd go away and I'd come back, and it's like, "Here's the, the six principles of, of, you know, um, obsessing the details that we're gonna focus on this year." But I didn't involve them in authoring those.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett56:21

      Mm-hmm.

   5. GHGreg Hoffman56:21

      So it's like publish what you believe, invite folks into the process that have maybe slightly different opinions than you do, and then complete this, build the consensus, and then make sure everyone has it so that clearly as you drive down the road and you're looking at restaurant architecture, uh, you know, business building architecture, it's pretty clear that people just decided, like, it was good enough and no one will ever... You know, who cares if it's c- gonna win an a- The point isn't to win awards. The point is to take something as far as you can, um, to contribute something great to, you know, to society, whether it is a building, um, or, um, a book or this bottle design. Um, you know, the, the amount of thought that went into that, I think that's the typeface Helvetica, I believe, and the choices made to go upper and lowercase. Like, that's all intentional, you know, to have it black on white, um, the name-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett57:32

      The name Human Fuel?

   7. GHGreg Hoffman57:33

      Yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett57:34

      (laughs)

   9. GHGreg Hoffman57:34

      Uh, well, and, and that's the thing. I mean, you have to start with naming, right? And one of the hardest pursuits is naming a product or naming a company, because it's such a crowded space. But man, if you get the name right, um, it will save you millions in marketing.

10. 57:51 – 1:04:39

    Advice to become a successful marketer

    1. GHGreg Hoffman57:52

    2. SBSteven Bartlett57:52

       So if I was to ask you now and I used to say, "Right, I have a team of 100,000 people and I want them to be great marketeers, but we're only allowed to give them three guiding principles which they will take with them." These can just be philosophies, ideas, whatever.

    3. GHGreg Hoffman58:05

       Yeah.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett58:05

       But we can only give them three guiding principles to hope to make them successful. What would those top three guiding principles be?

    5. GHGreg Hoffman58:14

       I'll start with the three characteristics, um, that I would say it's like we're gonna, we're gonna have the dominant traits of empathy, curiosity, and let's call it courage or risk-taking. Like those, those three traits is what we're gonna be known for. And for empathy, you know, to me, within the marketing process is, is, you know, the principle that I talk about in the book is, you know, see what others see, find what others don't. The best marketing teams and the best communication teams are able to peel back the layers, get under the surface of a human being, a city, or a community, and find the deeper insider truth that resides there, and then they reveal it through storytelling. It's back to the Michael Jordan example. How many, how many more ads could you do about him dunking a basketball? So empathy is like go deeper. Whether you're designing a product, it's like, you know, you're, you're, you're revealing the, the, the true problem that needs to be solved. You're not just observing some behavior and making, um, you know, uh, a, you know, hypothesis off that. You're actually spending the time to go deeper and deeper into that. And that's that idea of see what others see, find what others don't. Curiosity is that idea of getting outside yourself, um, because it's one thing to have the insight, right, and the problem that you're gonna solve, and you're clear on that, but now you need to reveal it to the world. And oftentimes, you need, uh, points of inspiration coming into the process. And that's like you look at Nike Air, probably the greatest innovation in the history of, of sneakers, right? Uh, air, air, um, air bags and air cushioning in sneakers. Well, that came from, uh, an engineer at NASA who was experimenting with creating an innovation for astronaut helmets for space exploration, and he brought that to Nike, and that led to Nike Air. That's my point about find inspiration outside of your sector, and that's that idea of bringing the outside in. So that's the curiosity thing. Outside, uh, get outside yourself. And then, you know, f- finally is that idea of, of, you know, we don't play it safe, we play to win. Um, we want a dif- we- we're not comfortable with the status quo. Um, and we want people comfortable kind of pursuing what's next, not just getting complacent and delivering, um-... products, services, stories, in the way everyone else is. So we also wanna be a team that, that is obsessive about, um, every aspect of branding, you know. And so think of how powerful that b- can become is if you have a team and that they're deeply empathetic to who they serve, like, they get great at learning and asking questions, they're unbelievable, uh, unbelievably curious, and always looking beyond what's in front of 'em to see what else they can... 'Cause so much of innovation is about transference. You take something from here, you bring it into your sector, and you, you, you, you change the game. And then f- and then, but, and then the risk-taking thing is not feeling like you have a team that has to ask for permission to use their imagination. I think that's really important because if you're in a, if you develop a culture where, um, people have to ask, um, to think, people have to get approval, um, then you're not... I, I don't believe you would be known as a, a leading innovator in, in your space on that. So tho- those are just a few, but I, I just think it's also... I'll, I'll tell you this. When I was CMO, I did an informal, um, poll with my, the marketing leaders. And I'm biased, of course, but I felt and I believe th- this is the best marketing team in the world. And I said, "What are the top two characteristics you look for in any marketer that you're interviewing for a particular job within the Nike marketing team?" And the top two, um, traits that came to the top from everybody was curiosity and collaborative. I mean, to a person. And then it was kinda tied. I want someone who's always searching for inspiration and is curious about e- about their teammates, about the consumer, about technology, entertainment, um, uh, art, and then I want someone who, who can play with others, right? And, um, that you can feel that sense that this person is, um, has conviction, um, you know, believes in themselves, but can play within a, in a, in a team. Um, and those were the two that, that rose to the top. And, and, um, you know, and I, I think that's true today.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:39

       Quick one. I just wanted to share a fantastic initiative from one of my podcast sponsors for those of you that are looking to grow your business online. Right now, you can get £200 of social media advertising paid for by Vodafone Business when you sign up to three unlimited mobile plans. Social media has a huge impact on your business. If I had to start my business again from scratch right now, the first thing I would do is produce content daily at a high cadence. The thing that grew my company so fast was producing content on social media platforms. It helps your company become known and builds your digital reputation/personal brand. If you've not ventured into the space of social media or social media advertising before, don't worry. Vodafone Business will also provide the knowledge, support, and tips you need in creating a plan, all through Vodafone v-hub. To find out more and how I'd spend that £200 that Vodafone are giving, search Vodafone Digital Boost. And obviously, terms and conditions apply.

11. 1:04:39 – 1:14:21

    Finding out about your biological family

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:39

       April 2021, significant month for you in your life? Does it ring a bell?

    2. GHGreg Hoffman1:04:45

       Yeah, absolutely, yes. (laughs) I was sitting at home, uh, actually reading The New York Times, an actual newspaper. Remember those?

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:53

       No. (laughs)

    4. GHGreg Hoffman1:04:54

       (laughs) You don't?

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:56

       No.

    6. GHGreg Hoffman1:04:56

       Um, and, uh, yeah, I got a, a DM, uh, through 23andMe. I had, I had done the 23andMe thing, um-

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:03

       What was 23andMe, for anybody that doesn't know?

    8. GHGreg Hoffman1:05:05

       Yeah, so you, you submit your DNA, um, and it's o- uh, along with ancestry.com, um, it gives you kind of your family tree. You can figure out others that have joined 23andMe, if you're related to them, uh, and, um, you know, a, a variety of other things in terms of what you might be susceptible for from a medical standpoint or other. And so, you know, as some- as an adoptee and growing up not knowing who my parents were or who my families were or having lots of questions my whole life, but basically I'd gotten to the point where it is what it is and I'm just moving on with my life, right? Um, so I'm sitting around and I get this, this DM in, in... through 23andMe, and, and I usually just ignore those because sometimes it's like, "Hey, you have a, a predisposition to like, uh, bread crust." I mean, you get these emails, right? And it's like, "Oh, and great, another 23andMe notice." But I look and it... and this note says, um, wow, I had no idea I had an uncle on this, uh, or in life. And so I looked at it and then, um, I looked at the name, and I went to, you know, as you do, I went to Facebook, right? (laughs) And I looked this person up. And I was like, "Whoa." So the person went to my high school. The person was also a graphic designer, which was my- what I got a degree in, they had a degree. And as we did a... my wife and I did a little bit more sleuthing, it turned out that this wasn't my niece. This was my sister. And this meant that her mom was, you know, not my sister. Her mom was my mom. And so wow, that, that was, uh, a lot, right? And that opened up, uh, an unbelievable door.... over the last year of meeting my birth families and for the first time being able to answer questions like, "Why do I look the way I do? Why do I have this, th- why is my voice the way it is, and why do I have certain characteristics or passions?" And as I dove deeper into it, um, you know, two things started to unfold. Um, one is the, the amount of art and design, um, practice going back generations on both sides, right? Not to mention my sister, you know, is a graphic designer. My birth mom was a longtime flight attendant, but would spend all of her downtime at art museums from around the world. My birth grandmother was a painter, right? And there was art and design on my father's side. But kind of going back to where we started this conversation, right, about race and search for identity, and not necessarily growing up, um, with the black experience, at least the positive one, and to come all the way to today and have spent the last year diving very deep into my African American heritage, going all the way back pre-civil w- American Civil War. And, um, and just I, I, I can't tell you what a life bonus this has been. Um, I can't put a dollar amount on it to be able to start to put the pieces together, um, uh, for the first time, because up until now, you're, you're manufacturing a lot of that as someone who's, who's adopted, right? Um, and, um, so yeah. It, it's just, uh, it's, it's just been an amazing run. Uh, they don't all... Uh, r- you know, reuniting with birth families doesn't, you know... The percentages aren't always high that it's gonna be a positive one, and in this case, um, everyone has been just, I mean, unbelievably, um, generous with their time, thoughtful. Um, and, um, I have... I could put together a museum of all the objects and pictures and, um, memorabilia from the generations of these families, um, you know, now, and it's just been, uh, it's just been amazing. And I wanted to make sure I c- I captured some of that in the book to, to, to honor them as well. And I wanna say something too. It's like, to learn that your grandfather was the only black man in his graduating class in college in 1955, can you imagine what that was like in America in 1955 to be the on- (laughs) only black person? Let alone there was no women in that class. So, um, yeah, I, I just look at that and, uh, I, I, I start to feel where some of my, um, drive, uh, to, to, you know, create things that stand out, um, do things a bit differently, and, um, and now I have a backstop if you will, um, a, a history that maybe I didn't, uh, get to draw from, uh, in the past.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:32

       You must have first met your... and got to hug your biological mother. H- what was that day like?

    10. GHGreg Hoffman1:10:41

        Yeah, I mean, it, it's... Again, you're, you're talking about a time wh- you know, my birth parents were 17 when they had me and, you know, you've got two kids, one's black, one, one's white, in Minnesota in 1970. That's just not acceptable. You can imagine, right? In high school. Um, so... And my birth mom, right, had to go live in a home, as you did as a teenager if you got pregnant, and to have me, and then had to give me up, okay? So... And then keeps that a secret her whole life until that day when her daughter said, "I have to ask you something, you know. I, I know I have a brother." So two months later after lots of discussions, kind of getting comfortable, getting to know, I, we fly out there and yeah, I mean, it's, um... As you're... I'm trying to play it cool 'cause that's me, just always trying to be, be, um, you know, cool about things, and, um... But really it's, it's just like, "H- how is this gonna go?" I mean, 'cause the last thing you wanna be is rejected, but now that you've crossed that point there's, you're, there's, you, this is a new experience that, you know, you've never had. So what's great that my birth mom did is I, I... As we parked and we met, like, at a park acro- on a lake with, with, um, them is she just ca- 'cause I didn't know if I could make the first move, but she came running up and just gave me a big hug. We didn't even say anything, and that was the beginning of th- the first time I saw her in person, and it was just, uh... (sighs) Yeah, I mean, um, you know, uh, it, it's just... Uh, I'll be honest. I'm a, I'm a happier person. (crying) So, you know. And it's not that I was... I, I've ha- gotten so much, so much. I have such a wonderful family and kids.... and such an amazing career and having the opportunity to share it with everybody. Um, but to experience this at this stage of my life is just, I mean, um, it's just amazing.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:21

        Thank you. It's been a real honor and, uh, you know, you, you've inspired me tremendously for so many reasons and you've been a, a real sort of affirming, uh, and reaffirming force. Reading your book, Emotion By Design, um, has taught me a lot of the things that I did right and I didn't even know I did right, and then a lot of the things that I definitely could've done better in certain areas of my life. And even, you know, I can s- I'm almost 30 years old as a marketeer, um, but you've illuminated certain things that I, I don't think people tal- talk about enough, especially considering the way that the world is heading and it's, and how, you know, creativity is being sometimes talked about in a secondary sense to things like AI and, and data and, and we're, we're losing the human in things. But not just in marketing, in the world as well. There's a, an optimization of our lives driven by data-

    12. GHGreg Hoffman1:14:09

        Mm-hmm.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:10

        ... which is, which is sacrificing-

    14. GHGreg Hoffman1:14:11

        Yeah.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:11

        ... the love and the art and the beauty of what it is to be a human. And that's also the, the broader point that I got from the book is, and from you today, is, is, uh, the importance of not losing that and

12. 1:14:21 – 1:20:23

    Our last guest’s question

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:21

       yeah, we do have a closing tradition on this podcast-

    2. GHGreg Hoffman1:14:23

       Ah.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:24

       ... which is the previous guest leaves a question for the next guest. (inhales) Is there something right now that you know you're doing wrong, but you haven't fixed yet? If so, how will you get unstuck?

    4. GHGreg Hoffman1:14:42

       Wow. Now we're going deep. The election in America, um, in 2016 really damaged the relationship with my parents, my parents who adopted me, because I'm, you know, uh, obviously being, um, you can see through the work that I'm very much, um, you know, on the left if someone wanted to, uh, you know, categorize me as such, and I think you could cateri- categorize my parents maybe on the right. And just through all the, um, uh, just the divisiveness of America and the division between political parties as well as, um, you know, the citizens of America, unfortunately that is where, uh, my own family went, right? Because, um, I don't share those values. And so it's not r- right right now, um, and I'm not one to, to allow something to just, you know, not be fixed. So while I don't have the answers to that, I can say, and I'm revealing maybe too much about my life because on the one hand, I've met my birth families and I have these two new families I'm, um, I'm really enjoying and engaging with, and then on the other side, I need to figure out how to get beyond the politics, um, that exist today, back to this idea of getting past the ideology to have, you know, to go back to why we're connected in the first place, through emotion, you know. Um, and so I'm gonna see everybody, uh, in another month and, um, just try to create a, create a different type of, um, you know, relationship, um, that is respectful on both sides. So, um, I don't know if that fully answers the question.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:55

       No, no, perfect. You, you have it perfectly answered, in fact.

    6. GHGreg Hoffman1:16:56

       But it's, uh, it's a hell of a thing what's happened, um, you know, over, over the last four or five years and how, um, it's, it's what started within politics, um, just kind of moved into families and in some cases, it's broken them up-

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:14

       Hmm.

    8. GHGreg Hoffman1:17:15

       ... um, over, um, you know, uh, political views and s- such. So it's less about me being right or others being right. It's just trying to find, like, what is the common kind of, you know, cause that we can kind of at least agree on, on that. So...

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:35

       Perfectly answered and very-

    10. GHGreg Hoffman1:17:36

        (laughs)

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:36

        ... ver- a ver- very important topic that people don't talk about enough because it, I think a lot of families will relate to that division, especially generationally, right? So kids and their parents te- don't tend to be part of the same left/right values, uh, and that, I guess, there's empathy needed because someone said to me one day, which I've never forgotten, which is, "If you were th- if you were them, you would be making th- the decisions and believe what they believed." And it's a really-

    12. GHGreg Hoffman1:17:59

        Hmm.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:59

        ... simple concept, but it's-

    14. GHGreg Hoffman1:18:00

        Sure.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:00

        ... one that strikes empathy into me. So I've had a f- like a, a bit of a falling out with my mum lately and it's because of some, you know, in my view, it's the way she behaves and it, whatever. Um, and s- and just coming back to that point of, like, "Well, if I was my mum and I'd been born in Nigeria and I'd had the experiences of racism that she had growing up and then moving to the UK, being the only black woman in a village called Plymouth in the UK, having your car burnt and all of these, the things that have made her so bitter, if I, if I was her, I would be doing exactly what she's doing." Even, and h- her son doesn't like what she's doing, but if I-

    16. GHGreg Hoffman1:18:33

        Right.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:33

        ... was her and I'd, I'd had her brain, her genetics, her experiences, I would be doing the same thing. And for me, that kind of has created empathy which allows me to try and keep building the bridge and, you know, and extending off on a branch there.

    18. GHGreg Hoffman1:18:44

        It's a... Yeah, you make a great point. And I, and I think, like you, I never wanted... I would see, I would hear about these estranged relationships where people didn't talk to family members for years.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:54

        Mm-hmm.

    20. GHGreg Hoffman1:18:54

        And I was like, "Well, that's never gonna be me." Um, but you can fall into it, especially when there's, uh, in, in the, there's, there's polarizing things happening in the world, to your point, where there's, there's, um, there's bound to be generational differences in terms of, you know, the eyes you look through. So, um, but, um, that's also good advice that, that you have there. It does get back to empathy-

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:19

        Mm-hmm.

    22. GHGreg Hoffman1:19:19

        ... and practicing what I preach. (laughs)

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:20

        Yeah. Thank you, Greg.

    24. GHGreg Hoffman1:19:22

        Thank you.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:22

        Appreciate it. (instrumental music) As you might know, Crafted are one of the sponsors of this podcast and Crafted are a jewelry brand and they make really meaningful pieces of jewelry. And this piece by Crafted, when I put it on, for me it represents courage, it represents ambition, it represents being calm and loving and respectful and nurturing while also being the antithesis of that, seemingly the antithesis of that, which is, um, sometimes a little bit aggressive with my goals and determined and courageous and brave. The really wonderful thing about Crafted jewelry is it's super affordable, it looks amazing, the pieces hold tremendous meaning, and they are really well made. (instrumental music)

Episode duration: 1:20:23