The Narcissism Doctor: "1 In 6 People Are Narcissists!" How To Spot Them & Can They Change?

1. 0:00 – 2:44

   Intro

   1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula0:00

      We believe one in six people are narcissistic and exposure can become a life or death situation. But the key step to identify narcissism is...

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:10

      Dr. Ramani Durvasula. Licensed clinical psychologist.

   3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula0:14

      The world's leading expert on narcissism. All narcissism is on a spectrum. At the lowest ends, it's Instagram saviors, but the severe end of the spectrum, you're talking about a cult leader. They have low empathy. They will dominate people. They have to get the last word. They get angry very quickly. And that's just the top of the iceberg.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:33

      What about the impacts of narcissism on relationships?

   5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula0:36

      Narcissistic people, they can go out in the world and they're able to be charming and charismatic. And narcissistic relationships start strong. They wanna get you quick. And then, it becomes dismissiveness, manipulation, gaslighting. The world thinks this person's fantastic. A lot of people say, "Aren't ya lucky that you're married to that guy?" And behind closed doors, they psychologically destroy you.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett0:59

      Narcissism in work. How do I know if my boss is a narcissist?

   7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:03

      You're gonna feel it in the sense of you don't feel seen, you don't feel valued, you feel like the workplace is unpredictable. You might even feel that it's psychologically unsafe.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:12

      What about world leaders? If our adversary in another country is a narcissist, would we rather our leader be a narcissist as well?

   9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:19

      That's a fantastic question, and I think...

   10. SBSteven Bartlett1:22

       So the big question, how do you know if you are a narcissist and can you cure narcissism?

   11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:29

       So here's where we get into some interesting muddy waters.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:34

       It's absolutely crazy to me that so many of you have decided to watch our show, um, and so many of you have decided to subscribe to our show. We now have five million subscribers on YouTube, which is a number that I just can't comprehend, and it's a dream that I absolutely never could have had. We started the Diary of a CEO just over three years ago now, and in my wildest expectations, we might have had 100,000 subscribers by now. So you can imagine how shocked I am that so many of you have chosen to tune into these conversations every week, um, and spend some time with us. So thank you. And I made a deal with you. I made a deal that if you subscribed to this show that we would continue to raise the bar. And in 2024, we're gonna raise the bar like never before. I've been working for the last nine months on a surprise for all of you that have subscribed to this show, and I'm very excited to deliver that for you. The production's gonna change. We're gonna go even further with our guests, and we're gonna tell even more global stories. So as always, if you appreciate what we're doing here, the simple free favor I'll ask from you is to hit the subscribe button. Let's get on with the episode.

2. 2:44 – 3:46

   Why Dedicating Your Life To Studying Narcissism

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:44

      Dr. Ramani?

   2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula2:45

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett2:46

      You've committed so much of your life and your energy to the subject of narcissism. Why does it matter?

   4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula2:53

      Oh, it matters so much because exposure to people who have narcissistic personalities shapes how people's identity develops, shapes how their personality develops, or if the first time you encounter a narcissistic person is in adulthood, it can actually sort of hijack that sense of identity. It can really steal a person away from themselves. And we- I think it's so important because we haven't given ourselves permission, I think as a culture, as a field of mental health, to identify this as a problem and allow people to have better responses. In a way, it's almost viewed as sort of not being very nice to say the narcissistic people are not very nice. It's a strange paradox in the world of mental health. That's why I do it because nothing more than me wanting to return people back to their authentic selves.

3. 3:46 – 6:43

   The Cost Of Narcissism

   1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula3:46

   2. SBSteven Bartlett3:46

      You must have seen the cost of narcissism. Can you give me some examples of the cost that a narcissist has had on someone's life that you've seen?

   3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula3:55

      Mm-hmm, oh, where do I begin? I'll tell you cost is a person who so doesn't believe in themselves that they may give up on their path of education and never pursue an interest. So we never got to see the work product that that would've created. Not to mention that person actually getting to unfurl their wings and fully be who they wanted to be as a creative or as a professional. It's the person who knew what they wanted to be, that they had a very strong identity as pick something, and they ended up choosing something else because they knew the only way they could be loved was to be what that parent demanded of them. And it was so clear to them they wouldn't be loved unless they fully gave in to what that parent expected of them. It's the person who was an absolutely glorious human being, lovely, empathic and warm, but feels so damaged after years of being told, "You're not enough, you're selfish, you're greedy, you're foolish," that they get into relationship after relationship that duplicates that theme and don't get the real collaborative, compassionate love story that they deserve because they don't think they deserve it. And that's just the top of the iceberg.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett5:11

      And your academic background-

   5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula5:13

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett5:13

      ... your, the experience that you're drawing from, what is that experience?

   7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula5:17

      So my, my experiences and, and my academic background is I have a PhD in clinical psychology and my minor is in something called health psychology. And so I got really interested in how various elements of mental health and mental illness showed up in people who had co-occurring medical conditions. So it's a very, almost like strange point to enter. But what we do know is people... Personality affects how we take care of our health.... how we might engage in behaviors that might put our health at risk. For example, narcissism and addiction have a really high overlap. So here's a case of now a personality style putting a person at health risk due to using substances to regulate, and then all the things that would come of that. But it- it's tough to measure personality, Steven. It's really hard to measure. It's not one of those things, it's not like a blood test, it's not even like measuring depression. Frankly, depression is eminently measurable. Yeah, there's different variants and there's different severity, but we're very clear diagnostically and phenomenologically what makes depression, what qualifies. Personality is like the Wild West. And so from a research perspective, it's something that people would often shy away from 'cause we couldn't get the constructs right. But I said, "I welcome the challenge," because I truly in my heart believed if we could understand and study personality more, we'd actually be understanding all this unmeasurable noise in the mental health research 'cause I thought that's probably where it was, and I think more and more of the research is supporting that.

4. 6:43 – 12:33

   How To Spot A Narcissist

   1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula6:43

   2. SBSteven Bartlett6:43

      And you spend time even today dealing with patients who are the victim of a narcissistic relationship, or the victim of a narcissist?

   3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula6:54

      Every week. Every week. I mean, it's- it's probably one of the, if not the most gratifying part of my week. I'm a big believer that if you're a mental health practitioner, you practice mental health, so that's a privilege to be able to be in that room and to work with clients. But it would be so easy when you're dealing at a macro level, large populations, going on YouTube, writing books, to get distanced from what is happening to individual people's lives. One of the tricky bits with research is we study populations, we study samples, right? We study hundreds of people. What happens in the room is something very different, and you start to recognize, A, how badly these relationships harm people, their schemas of the world, their schemas of themselves, and B, how much potential for intervention there is with these clients through very, very simple approaches around education about narcissism, validation of their experience, breaking through self-blame, and teaching them to trust themselves.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett7:51

      So how many patients do you think you've seen that have been victims of narcissists?

   5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula7:56

      I mean, hundreds. Hundreds, really. And I even use the word survivor. I hate to call them victims 'cause I don't even think they're that passive. I mean, I think that they just weren't... No one ever taught anyone this, right? I'll give you the example. When people are in a relationship with somebody who's living with addiction, it's very clear what they're dealing with, right? You have a person, they're using a substance that's altering them, that's altering their behavior, that's taking them away from who they are in person. People in relationships with addicts will say, "I'm in two relationships. I'm in a relationship with a sober person, and I'm in a relationship with somebody who's using or intoxicated or denying or defending their use," right? Two people. And it breaks the people in those relationships, and we're willing to call it that. The experience people have in narcissistic relationships in a way is no different with the added bit, though, that at least with addiction people can say, "I see what the behavior is. I see what the issue is." Addiction's a disease, and we know it's treatable.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett8:50

      Mm-hmm.

   7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula8:51

      Narcissism, not so much. And on top of that, the narcissistic person has this very well developed, very successful behavioral repertoire. They can go out in the world, and they're able to be charming and charismatic and confident and smart and the center of attention and running companies, and behind closed doors, they psychologically eviscerate the people they're with. Spouses, partners, family members, close friends, maybe people who are below them in an organization, people where they can kind of get away with it. So the people they're harming, the world thinks this person's fantastic. At least the person who's in a relationship with an addict, people say, "Okay, I get it. They're using, this is hard." But for the folks in narcissistic relationships, a lot of people say, "Aren't ya lucky that you're married to that guy?" And the person's like, "Oh my gosh, are these people out of their mind?" Like, so what do they do? They blame themselves.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett9:45

      Okay. What is narcissism?

   9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula9:49

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett9:50

       Because I've heard the word used so often-

   11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula9:53

       Mm-hmm.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett9:53

       ... but I couldn't tell you the definition of it.

   13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula9:55

       Mm-hmm.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett9:55

       I feel like I'd butcher the definition of what it is.

   15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula9:58

       Mm-hmm. So I'm almost curious to ask you-

   16. SBSteven Bartlett10:01

       Yeah.

   17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula10:01

       ... what just... Before I almost contaminate you with, uh, with what my definition is, what's your working definition? What's your working model of what narcissism is?

   18. SBSteven Bartlett10:11

       Um, delusions of grandeur-

   19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula10:12

       Mm-hmm.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett10:13

       ... someone that thinks they're like super important and that they are better than everybody else. Arrogance, um, and they're cruel.

   21. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula10:20

       Okay. All right, so I- I would give you probably like a C+, B- if you're a student in my class.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett10:26

       Okay, you can be kind here. Yeah, yeah.

   23. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula10:26

       I mean, I- I- I cut students a lot of slack back in the day.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett10:29

       Yeah.

   25. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula10:29

       So I'll give you a C+, B- because you're in the neighborhood, right?

   26. SBSteven Bartlett10:33

       Okay.

   27. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula10:33

       The grandiosity, the arrogance, the- the meanness, but that to me is even more sort of a manifestation of all the traits, like the grandiosity, the arrogance. They have variable empathy and typically have low empathy. They're deeply entitled. They truly think they're more special than everyone else, and that the rules should apply to them very differently. They have a excessive need for admiration and validation. They're very superficial. They don't really have the capacity for deep, sustained, intimate relationships. They're very much referential to the world out there out- outside of them to set goals. They don't have a good internal sense of like what matters to me, what- what do I want to do. They just want to do what they do, again, to get that admiration and validation. And there's a shallowness, a real emotional shallowness, to narcissism. Those are the patterns and traits we sort of see. They're very, very self-centered, very preoccupied with themselves, the good parts of themselves, the bad parts of themselves. It's very rare for them to sort of lift their heads up and genuinely notice the experience of another person. That's what narcissism is. How does it show up?It shows up as devaluation, dismissiveness, manipulation, gaslighting. They get angry very quickly, especially when they're frustrated or disappointed, and that can show up as overt rage or overt anger, yelling, screaming, or even violence. That can show up as passive aggression, withholding and withdrawing. They are, they can be, they're prone to betrayal, they lie, they cheat, they make promises about the future they never keep, but they do that to keep people around so they won't leave them, so it's, it's part of a larger sort of a manipulation. They will dominate people. They have to get the last word. They will shift blame onto other people.They will rarely take responsibility for their misdeeds even when they're clearly caught in them and if they do, they'll still blame the other person. They're very neglectful and careless in relationships. That is narcissism.

5. 12:33 – 15:25

   How To Differentiate An Asshole From A Narcissist

   1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula12:33

   2. SBSteven Bartlett12:33

      How can you tell the difference between someone having a bad day, an asshole, and a narcissist? Because some of those things there I thought, "Do you know what? On a bad day I might do that."

   3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula12:42

      Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett12:42

      You know? Um, the whole collection together, no.

   5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula12:46

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett12:46

      But on a bad day when I haven't slept, okay, do you know what? I might (blows air) blame someone or whatever else.

   7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula12:52

      Okay.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett12:52

      What's the distinction?

   9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula12:53

      When a person has a bad day, and we all have bad days, and on those bad days we might look if all the, if the only tape someone had of us was of that day, ooh, right?

   10. SBSteven Bartlett13:03

       Mm-hmm.

   11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula13:03

       But the, here is the piece. When people are not narcissistic and they have bad days, they will take accountability, they will make amends, and they will change their behavior and say, "I'm not doing this again. This isn't, this is not okay." Why wasn't it okay? Because it was none of those people's fault. You didn't get enough sleep. And whether that means we reach deeper to be as kind as we can to the people, in some cases, especially if it's people we know or we see again, you may not know the random person at the gym, but if we see someone we know or work with, we step, we step out of ourselves to say, "The way I conducted myself yesterday wasn't okay and I'm really sorry about that." Um, and so that, that they're having that experience of you taking accountability. That's where I know we're not dealing with a narcissistic person, we're dealing with a bad day. And a bad day is just that, a day. It's not every day. With a narcissistic person, many days, I'm not gonna say all, but many days are characterized by these machinations, these manipulations, and these invalidations. It, the person in a relationship with a narcissistic person feels like they're constantly on their back foot, that they can't be themselves, they can't express a need, they can't express a want, they can't even express a feeling for fear of it being shut down. So, there's your, th- so there's your not-narcissistic person. What about an asshole, okay? I do think assholery and narcissism are pretty, you know, they're, they're, we use the terms interchangeably. I think though that, here's my, here's my asshole belief since this is something ... ... since I think the construct validation on asshole is probably still needing to be done. I think assholes tend to be pretty consistently assholes.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett14:41

       (laughs) .

   13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula14:41

       So, whereas narcissistic people can really, uh, they have a much wider behavioral repertoire to be absolutely charmin- this is a person who can be absolutely charming on the golf course, with the CEO of their company, like charming, nice, warm, remembering the ages of their kids and asking about the wife and remembering that their grandmother is sick and all this stuff, and get home, forget it was his anniversary, scream at their partner, "Why is the house like, look like this? Why do I have to put up with this? Make those damn kids shut up," but they were Mr. "I remember that your little girl's birthday is February 6th," when they were on the golf course. That is not assholery. That's

6. 15:25 – 16:45

   Can You Cure Narcissism?

   1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula15:25

      narcissism.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett15:26

      Can you cure narcissism, in your opinion?

   3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula15:29

      No, I don't, because I think that would imply changing a personality, which I don't think we can do.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett15:34

      Hm. Is there any evidence, have you ever seen in your 20 years of working-

   5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula15:39

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett15:40

      ... with narcissists and their survivors any sign of a narcissist becoming a not-narcissist or a non-narcissist?

   7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula15:47

      I've not seen them s- become a not-narcissist. I've be- seen them make micro-changes 'cause I measure and monitor and make my notes in therapy. So I'll see, interesting, they're no longer trying to mess with coming in 10 minutes later and asking me to keep them for the whole hour. They are m- honoring the therapeutic frame. They're paying the bill when they decide not to show up at the last m- minute. I will see tiny tweaks. I will see people who will come in and say, "I screamed at my girlfriend again last night and that wasn't cool." So I was like, ooh, whoa, well, that's insight. Like, I'll run with it, but here's the rub, okay? These micro-changes, and they are micro-changes, but they are changes and they're in the right direction, that much water under the, under the bridge for the family members and partners and other people that have been harmed. They're saying, "You want me to stay in this relationship 'cause this dude remembered to say thank you once this week? I think not." To me, the thank you is progress. To the people in their lives who've been harmed, that one thank you is

7. 16:45 – 18:30

   What Gender Tends To Be More Narcissistic

   1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula16:45

      not gonna be enough.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett16:47

      When I was looking at the subject of narcissism and I was looking at what people are searching around the subject matter, I could see no searches online for, "Is my wife a narcissist?"

   3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula16:59

      Hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett17:00

      But I saw lots of searches for, "Is my husband a narcissist?"

   5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula17:04

      Really?

   6. SBSteven Bartlett17:04

      Yes. So I wondered, is narcissism a gender-specific thing?

   7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula17:10

      Mm-hmm.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett17:10

      And in what proportion do you typically see men and women being narcissists?

   9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula17:14

      Yeah, no, it's not gender-specific. I'm so shocked at that because I've worked with so many men who have narcissistic wives or, or female partners, and I've worked with many, I've ma- worked with many lesbian couples. I've wor- I mean, I've worked with cases where clearly it was a woman, female-identified person, who is narcissistic. It is definitely not limited to men. So here's what we know. Grandiose narcissism, much more common in men. Malignant narcissism, much more common in men.But there's a form of narcissism called vulnerable narcissism. Vulnerable narcissism isn't so much of the showy, charismatic, charming, look at me, arrogant, salesy, attention-seeking narcissist. The vulnerable narcissist is more socially anxious, victimized, sullen, resentful, aggrieved, and often we sort of see a failure to launch, right? There's sort of a, "I'm angry at the world. How come I never got my turn?" You know, it makes me... "How come she got that?" And, you know, "I- I was better than him, I should have gotten that." There's a grrr...

   10. SBSteven Bartlett18:22

       Victimhood?

   11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula18:23

       Yeah, victimhood, okay?

   12. SBSteven Bartlett18:24

       Mm-hmm.

   13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula18:24

       That's called vulnerable narcissism, right? When we look at vulnerable narcissism, gender

8. 18:30 – 25:13

   The Types Of Narcissism

   1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula18:30

      balanced.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett18:31

      Okay, so these other types of narcissism, you named four types there. Grandiose narcissism...

   3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula18:36

      Right, so that's our traditional sort of garden variety narcissism, the showy, charismatic, pretentious, preening, charming, attention-seeking, actually quite often quite successful narcissistic person. Unlike the vulnerable narcissists who are failure to launch, the grandiose narcissistic people often have big, big dreams and they'll execute. Not always, not always, and they'll often burn bridges because they are in fact narcissistic, so they'll anger people or do shady deals or cut people out and all that stuff. But m- the grandiose narcissistic folks are often the larger-than-life folks. Now, if they are angry at you, if they feel let down by you, they will let you know. They can be very vindictive. They are not gonna be very honest in a relationship, they're probably gonna betray you, they're gonna be mean to their partners, we can count on that too. But to the world at large, larger than life. That's the typical model. Now, the vulnerable narcissism is what I j- narcissist is what I just shared with you, that more vulnerable, victimized, sorry, victimized, socially anxious, angry, aggrieved, sullen, resentful failure-to-launch narcissist, okay? Some people would argue they're one and the same, that as long as the grandiose narcissistic person is well-supplied, things are going well, they're getting lots of attention, they're making money, they're- they're just sort of feeling like they're- they're the person, they're good, then they're gonna- they're gonna stay in their grandiose mode. However, if the thing tips and things- everything goes wrong for the grandiose narcissist, they lose the money, they lose the job, they lose the partner, they lose social status, the vulnerable stuff will start showing up, the victimhood, the resentment, "This is a witch hunt, everyone's out to get me." It can almost feel sort of low-grade paranoid. You're either more one than another, so the vulnerable narcissist could definitely have a grandiose moment if everything turned for them, but some people are just more grandiose, some people are more vulnerable, but they do have the other underbelly. That's just, that's how that looks. Now, the malignant narcissist, which is another type I talked about, this is where we see the most severe form. And th- when I say most severe, most severe in terms of how it shows up in relationships, I'd say the most problematic form of narcissism, and here's where we see a form of narcissism that shows up as manipulativeness, exploitativeness, the willingness to take advantage of people, um, coerciveness, i- isolation, using menace as a tool of control, very vindictive, dangerous. It can be quite dangerous. Um, these- this is why I always say malignant narcissism is the last stop on the train before you hit psychopathy station (laughs) because this is as close to psychopathy as you're gonna get without it being psychopathy. And in fact, there's a personality model called the Dark Tetrad, and the Dark Tetrad is comprised of narcissism, psychopathy, Machiavellianism, which is sort of, like, that willingness to use other people for your own advantage, and sadism. I personally think there should be a fifth bit, which is paranoia, 'cause I think these folks can be really- think everyone's out to get them, but the model right now is those four pieces, right? Malignant narcissism has a lot of those top notes, the calculated, callous coldness, the shallow charm, the shallow superficial charm, intelligence, um, the lack of empathy, the- in some ways, getting some pleasure out of seeing someone who wronged them being hurt. So again, it feels more dangerous, and that's malignant narcissism.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett21:57

      Is that your serial k- killers?

   5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula21:59

      I would say the serial killers are probably more psychopathic, and psychopathy is definitely a different subtype. It's different. Psychopathy is something different than malignant narcissism. They're not the same thing. They- they- they- they look different even genetically and all, and- and they look different, probably look different in the brain. Psychopathic people have, um, they don't have remorse. They don't feel guilt, whereas malignant narcissistic people may, they know they did something wrong. A psychopathic person, it's almost as though they don't understand what they did wrong, not because they have a mental deficit but because they literally have zero capacity for empathy.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett22:34

      And the fourth type of narcissism?

   7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula22:36

      So I gave you vulnerable, grandiose, malignant, and the fourth type is communal narcissism, right? Grandiose, malignant, vulnerable.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett22:43

      Yeah.

   9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula22:43

      Yes, the fourth type is communal narcissism. Communal narcissism's very interesting. It's a relatively new construct in the field. It came around 2003 is when I started reading some of the first papers by a guy named, uh, Gebauer, I think he was writing, it was the University of Munich at the time, and I- I loved the work. I thought it was absolutely compelling because it was this idea that there were people out there who were gonna get their narcissistic supply not through the usual, "Look at me, I'm so great. I'm gonna do things so people tell me I'm great," but by doing good deeds, by being perceived as saviors, by being perceived as grand rescuers, humanitarians. So the communal narcissist is a person who gets their narcissistic supply, their praise, their admiration, their awe, by doing these good deeds, and that's the motivation for doing the good deeds, not the good deed in and of itself, not because you care about a refugee group, not because you care about the plight of animals, but because you want to be viewed as a good dude. And so that's the communal narcissist. Now-What gets interesting, like with all forms of narcissism, all narcissism is on a spectrum. It's not an either/or, from mild to severe. All of mental health is on a spectrum. There's no such thing as a black and white dichotomy in mental health. It's, it's, it's mild to severe, mild to severe and what's interesting with communal narcissism, at the lowest ends it's sort of like you're more like Instagram saviors. Like, "Look at me, I'm saving the world," but you know, like, they're cleaning up the beach in their bikini and I'm like, "Is this about how attractive you are or is this about really trying to save the environment?" Like it really is about, are we talking about apps or are we talking about trash in the street? Like, what are we talking about? But they want the validation, like, "What a cool person you are for spending your weekend saving elephants." They're relatively harmless, they're moderately ridiculous, but they do get angry if people don't give them a big bravo for how hum- humanitarian they are. You take communal narcissism all the way to the severe end of the spectrum, you're talking about a cult leader. These are now people who are saying, "I have the answer to the universe. I know everything. I know you better than you." They'll bring people into cultic systems, they will completely, you know, separate them from their sense of self and their sense of self worth, have no problem doing it, and tell them that they're doing them a good t- thing the whole time. That's, to me, you're, uh, you're a severe cult leader or I think all cult leader- cult leaders, forget severe, a cult leader is really probably where communal and malignant narcissism come together.

9. 25:13 – 27:27

   How Many People Are Narcissists?

   1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula25:13

   2. SBSteven Bartlett25:13

      The big question, how many people are narcissists?

   3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula25:17

      Hm. This is a big question, because our problem is this, there's really no good studies about this. It's tough to measure narcissism. Who's really gonna cop to being really entitled or really manipulative? You often don't get people who are gonna answer those questions in an honest, open way. When we look at the prevalence of narcissistic personality disorder that are done in what we call large scale epidemiologic studies, we see the rates to be somewhere between 1% and 6%, but that's the diagnosis and that's in really structured research settings. Narcissism, so a person who has enough of the narcissistic personality style to be noticeable, to be experienced by others, it's a spitball number 'cause we've never done the numbers, so I'd say spitball number is probably sitting somewhere between 15% and 18%. I think that's a good guess, about one in six people. I think if you're in a major metropolitan area, it's gonna be a little higher. I think in certain industries it's going to be higher. Um, I think in certain maybe even cultures it could be higher. So, but if you were gonna just give me- ask me for a global prevalence, I mean I think th- that's- it's my- it's my best guess and I think a lot of folks in the field might agree with me. Again, enough of it that you would notice it, enough of it that people are being affected by it.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett26:29

      So you've met six team members of mine, including me.

   5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula26:32

      (laughs) I have not.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett26:33

      So...

   7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula26:33

      I've only met four of you.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett26:35

      (laughs)

   9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula26:35

      So you're still two men down. You're okay. (laughs)

   10. SBSteven Bartlett26:38

       Okay. Okay.

   11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula26:38

       You might still be coming through.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett26:40

       'Cause my next question was which one do you think it was? (laughs)

   13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula26:42

       So far so bad for you 'cause they-

   14. SBSteven Bartlett26:44

       (laughs)

   15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula26:44

       ... e- each one of us has been sweeter than the next. So Steven, you're in the hot seat right now.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett26:48

       Oh gosh, sugar. Okay, interesting. Okay, so, I mean one in six as a- as a spitball number is- is sc- scarily high.

   17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula26:56

       That's interesting you think it's scarily high. I mean I- I think it's about... I mean, listen, we know how pop- I- I- I actually don't think it is. I think if you went to a small town, you might hit closer to one in eight because I think a small town is almost based on a greater need for sociality. I think there's more interdependence in that kind of a situation, so narcissism isn't gonna probably work as well.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett27:18

       Mm-hmm.

   19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula27:18

       But I- I mean one in six, I think if any of us really went home and did the soul searching, listed out the names of everyone we knew, the number is probably gonna track.

10. 27:27 – 32:45

    Is Social Media Fuelling More Narcissists

    1. SBSteven Bartlett27:27

       Is that number increasing? Are we breeding narcissists because of the sort of social and societal changes that have occurred? I'm thinking about Instagram when you said that-

    2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula27:35

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett27:35

       I was thinking is- i- is social media a narcissist creator?

    4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula27:41

       It's- I think it's a- it's a narcissist amplifier but I don't think it's a creator. Narcissism is a personality style and like all personality styles, it's a social/emotional/developmental phenomenon that happens from infancy into adolescence. So somebody jumping onto Instagram when they're 18 and posting lots of selfies, if they're a decent person, that's not gonna turn them narcissistic. It might turn them boring, but I don't know that it would necessarily turn them narcissistic. I- I think it could take, if somebody's got the traits, they have the tendency to need the validation and admiration, and again, a person posting selfies, that doesn't make them narcissistic.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett28:17

       'Cause Jack went on holiday up this mountain and he posted loads of photos.

    6. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula28:19

       Okay, so j- no.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett28:20

       You know?

    8. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula28:21

       But- but I- we have to f- if Jack's a nice person, right? Jack is excited to share his trip with everyone, right?

    9. SBSteven Bartlett28:27

       Mm-hmm.

    10. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula28:27

        But if-

    11. SBSteven Bartlett28:28

        He was kind of like rubbing it in.

    12. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula28:30

        Okay, so it's a l- that- that's all right. Jack just lost some points there.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett28:32

        (laughs)

    14. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula28:32

        Poor Jack. But it's a, but- but I would say this w- what we want to know with anyone who's posted a lot of vacation photos, right, and they keep doing it-

    15. SBSteven Bartlett28:41

        Mm-hmm.

    16. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula28:42

        ... how present are they when you're actually with them? If you say like, "Listen, Jack is the loveliest person in the world-"

    17. SBSteven Bartlett28:48

        Mm-hmm.

    18. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula28:48

        "... and Jack loves sharing his vacation trips, and there's a little bit of schadenfreude in there-"

    19. SBSteven Bartlett28:53

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    20. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula28:53

        "... like, you know, but he's a sweetie," then Jack's off the hook.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett28:57

        Okay.

    22. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula28:57

        Right?

    23. SBSteven Bartlett28:57

        Mm-hmm.

    24. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula28:57

        I think though that what nar- what social media has become is it has taken pe- once upon a time, and you're probably even, you- you're- you're not so young that you would remember this, but I remembered it as a full grown ass woman, is that I can tell you that if I go backwards to when I first heard about social media, I was already in my 40s at that point, and um, and I remember looking at it and I was already studying narcissism and I said, "Oh God." I- I, and it was really like, it was almost like Houston we have a problem kind of thing, uh, someone else had shown it to me and I thought to myself, this isn't gonna create more narcissists, but once upon a time for a narcissistic person to get validation they'd actually have to have a shave and a shower and get out of the house.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett29:40

        Mm-hmm.

    26. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula29:40

        You couldn't just sit home-... and get validation. You had to go, go to work, d- get it in the family sphere, get it in your town bar or pub or something like that, but it wasn't going to come home from you just sitting on your ass at home taking pictures of yourself 'cause I-

    27. SBSteven Bartlett29:56

        (laughs)

    28. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula29:56

        ... don't know if you've ever tried to take a picture of yourself with a camera. You're either gonna catch-

    29. SBSteven Bartlett30:00

        (laughs)

    30. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula30:00

        ... your head or your mouth. Like, that's how we used to try to do it, right? So now there was a tool for these people to have a megaphone to say, "Look how wonderful I am." So a person who was already narcissistic, this was gonna harness it and sort of it was an accelerant on a fire that was already burning. But I don't-
11. 32:45 – 36:42

    Where Does Narcissism Come From Genetics Environment

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula32:45

    2. SBSteven Bartlett32:46

       So where does narcissism come from then?

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula32:49

       Mm-hmm. Well-

    4. SBSteven Bartlett32:49

       It's one of the, the big questions. It... From what you said there, I assume it comes... There might be a genetic component that's brought out by our childhood or...

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula32:57

       So we're all born with a temperament, right? I don't know if you're an only child, if you have siblings or anything like-

    6. SBSteven Bartlett33:02

       Youngest of four.

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula33:02

       You're youngest of four? Okay. So this-

    8. SBSteven Bartlett33:04

       Yeah.

    9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula33:04

       ... is harder for you. So you would... Um, it'd be interesting for you to talk with them is that... and your, your, your parent, whoever was the parents, whoever were around. Every one of you, you and your siblings had slightly different personalities from the day you were born and that rolled out in early childhood. So you'll see that one kid who's just easy breezy from the day they're born. You'll some s- sometimes see that kid who's just a clenched up ball of nerves from the day they're born. You'll see that kid who just doesn't want to chill for a minute from the day they're born. That stuff is called temperament, and what we know about temperament is that there are certain temperaments and... those... th- that make a child more biologically vulnerable, a little bit more difficult to soothe. They may be more... They just sort of need more, right? So they're more of a demand on a caregiver. I- uh, with that more vulnerable temperament, if that comes up against an environment that's at all invalidating, trauma, neglect, other adversities, chaos, domestic violence, substance use in the family, um, and e- even emotional abuse where the child is just being told, "Stop. Sit down. Shut up. Why can't you be like your sisters?" Right? That com- um, that combination can actually set up a real risk for developing narcissism. So that's pathway one. But pathway two... And this is actually coming out of really interesting work by a guy named Eddy Brummelmans from the University of Amsterdam. I've... It's fascinating work, and he's studying more sort of how do we... what's the other pathway? Well, the other pathway, and other folks like Masterson and others have written about this, which is the overvalued child. These are the children who are told, "You're more special than any other child. Not that you're special, but you are more special than him and him and her. So you shouldn't have to wait in a line. You're more special. You should get the teacher you want. You should get everything you want." Those children often... They don't learn to self-soothe. They often aren't as well-regulated. They actually kind of believe the hype that the parent is giving them, which is not doing them any favors.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett34:57

        Hmm.

    11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula34:57

        And Brummelmans is suggesting that this could sort of be a foreshadowing of what could turn into adult narcissism. You... I'm guessing you need that temperament on board. I think if you had a sweet-tempered kid, that constantly being told that they're special actually might leave the sweet-tempered kid feeling a little bit guilty actually. But the kid with that more vulnerable temperament, they might sort of... they might buy into the hype. So you sort of have this one pa- pathway of adversity. You have the one pathway of sort of these are kids who are told, "You're great. You can have anything you want. We'll do anything you want. Let's go on this vacation. Here's this device." But there off- also kids that are often very emotionally undernourished. They're not, they're not, um... Their emotions are not valued. They're not reflected. They're not mirrored. So these are kids who are get, get, get, but it's a very tenuous existence because they're still not in touch with their emotional world, which has to happen in childhood, wh- otherwise you don't get that, um, that... So you don't get that atlas of your own emotions, right? So those tend to be the two primary pathways. Now-... not every kid who goes through those pathways will be- will become narcissistic. In fact, the ma- vast majority will not. So I think that they- this- it's very complicated and what we call- it's very- it's- it's multi-determined. It's a very multi-determined series of pathways to what leads to adult narcissism, and because of that, I always say narcissism is one of those stories we can always tell backwards but is really difficult to tell forwards. Don't show me your 17-year-old who is- who is- has a lot of attitude and won't empty the dishwasher and calls you names, and don't ask me if he's narcissistic. I usually tell those parents, "Call me in 10 years, and in 10 years you're gonna see if this tracked or he pops out of it like every adolescent who's trying to kind of individuate from his parents and

12. 36:42 – 37:44

    Narcissism Lives In A Spectrum

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula36:42

       settles down into a decent guy."

    2. SBSteven Bartlett36:43

       You mentioned that narcissism exists on a spectrum. So does that mean that someone can be a little bit narcissistic?

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula36:48

       Mm-hmm. I would say somebody can have milder narcissistic presentation. So what I mean by milder, the- the mild narcissistic people, the best adjective I could use, they're- they're annoying, they're emotionally immature, they're superficial, they're shallow, they're vapid, and th- and- and they're also very self-centered. So these are people when they're having a problem, they expect the world to stop for them, take their calls, talk to them for hours, but the day finally comes that you need your friend, they're nowhere to be seen, like, "Ugh, I don't have time for this." So it can feel like a very, very imbalanced relationship, and when you're with them, the mild narcissist can actually be kind of fun, right? They're- they're like, "Let's go to this new hot hip whatever blah, blah, blah," and they're fun and laugh and dance and attention-seeking. Could be fun for a minute, but there- it would be very difficult to have a longterm committed relationship with someone like that. It'd be difficult to raise children with someone like that. It would've been very difficult to have been raised by someone like that.

13. 37:44 – 40:48

    Are Narcissists More Successful

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula37:44

    2. SBSteven Bartlett37:44

       Are narcissists more successful professionally?

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula37:47

       Yes. They're much more successful. That's the problem. And not, I mean, again, and- and I'm not gonna make this a blanket statement, but I'm gonna tell you now that they are... They're more ambitious. Success is life or death to them, right? 'Cause it's validation. It's the- it's the- it's the blood that flows through their psyche, so the stakes are much higher for them. The rest of us, we want to succeed, but at the end of the day we say, "I've got my family, I got my friends, I got enough money in the bank, I got some food in my belly. Like, I'm good." But for them, it is- it's the air in their lungs. So they're more represented in leadership, they're- they make more money, especially narcissistic men make more money than agree- um, agreeable men. Um, they're more successful at dating. Um, they're more successful. And unfortunately, the way our economy is set up, it is set up so that the narcissistic people win. Narcissism and capitalism go together really well because it's a competitive system that rewards the person who does the most, and we don't look at process, we look at outcome. And bec- when anyt- anytime you have an outcome heavy metric, narcissistic people are always gonna win.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett38:57

       I'm thinking about some of the greatest companies that have been built that changed the world. You know, Apple being one of them. Oftentimes when you hear about how these people treated other people, um, it sounds like the narcissistic characteristics that you described earlier. You know, but then we often excuse that because of what they brought into the world, the great innovations, the great companies they built, how they helped change the world, how they maybe led us through or out of war.

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula39:26

       Mm-hmm.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett39:26

       So what do you say to that? Is it sometimes worth their narcissism for what they gave the world?

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula39:32

       So here's- here's a rub. I completely agree with what you're saying. I actually think that some of the greatest innovations, greatest creativity, in fact, many wartime presidents and prime ministers were, had to be narcissistic, right? And might have gotten countries, people through messes, might have made the- had the decisive postures that were necessary that might have made the really, really kind of, um, difficult corporate decisions that needed to be made with little regard for how the human beings were gonna get hurt, treated people in way, pushed them to an inhuman limit, and then there was this thing that came out of it. Was it worth it? I mean, now we're in- now we're in philosophy, honey, and I'm a psychologist. (laughs)

    8. SBSteven Bartlett40:14

       (laughs)

    9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula40:14

       But- but suffice it to say, you know, there's some- there's always been talk like even inventors like Thomas Alva- Thomas Alva Edison wasn't a ni- was not a nice guy, right? Some archival research. Loving these light bulbs, right? Would someone else have done it? It's a moot point. He did. And so I think the innovations are important. I think narcissistic people are built for innovation. They're grandiose, they're dreamers. They want the adulation. They want to do the big thing. They want to be on the big tech stage and have all the lights on them and have

14. 40:48 – 43:40

    The Empathic CEOs Are Rare

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula40:48

       all the attention while they have the beautiful video and the simple thing, and they want that. That is their everything. And what I tell people is, "We're never gonna have a world without them. We have gotten lots of cool stuff in our lives from them. Just don't marry them."

    2. SBSteven Bartlett41:06

       Is it possible to be the person on the stage to build the incredible thing, to have the insane ambition to put little computers into our pockets, and do all of that and not be a narcissist?

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula41:21

       I fully believe that. Absolutely, 100%. I think it's harder though. I really, really do. I think that the empathic CEO is an- is a unicorn. It's tough. Th- you know, and because they're- they're answering to so many masters, right? They're answering to shareholders, they're answering to rank and file, they're answering to management. It's... I wouldn't want that job. I- I'm a very agreeable, empathic person, and I- I- I got to tell you, I'd- I'd rather do any job than that one. It sounds... I'd love the money, but I- it's- it sounds terrible. And I think that the kind of shapeshifting and chameleon-like qualities that require, it's- I would say that an empathic person would get a bit more swallowed up in that job, because if you actually stopped to care about everyone you were serving in that position, you would burn out real fast. The not caring I think is what actually can protect a person in that position. And that's not to say all CEOs are narcissistic, though a lot are.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett42:14

       Because it's a competition at the end of the day.

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula42:15

       It is a competition at the end of the day, and narcissistic-

    6. SBSteven Bartlett42:17

       It's a zero-sum game.

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula42:17

       ... people are built for competition. They're built for it because they have to win at any cost. The rest of us are probably like, "Ugh, I'm out." You know?

    8. SBSteven Bartlett42:25

       Yeah. A lot of industries are a zero-sum game. Now, business generally isn't, but when I say zero-sum game, I mean there's t- you know, when, um, one person does well, that kind of means that someone else is not gonna do well.

    9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula42:35

       Correct.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett42:35

        So I'm thinking about some industries even...... one of my companies, Third Web, we realized that it's kind of a winner-takes-all industry-

    11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula42:42

        Yeah. Mm-hmm. Interesting.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett42:42

        ... in the same way that, like, Amazon-

    13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula42:44

        Yeah.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett42:45

        ... is like th- there's one Amazon and they dominate the whole of the m- pretty much all the market share, and with Google, there's one Google-

    15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula42:50

        Mm-hmm.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett42:50

        ... and th- their nearest competitor probably has 5% of the market share.

    17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula42:54

        Mm-hmm.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett42:54

        So there are elements in business where it is pretty winner-takes-all.

    19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula42:57

        Yeah.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett42:57

        And it's conceivable to think the person who is most ruthless, most willing to cut ethical corners-

    21. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula43:03

        Mm-hmm.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett43:04

        ... most willing to put profits over people-

    23. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula43:07

        Mm-hmm.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett43:07

        ... is probably gonna rise to the top.

    25. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula43:09

        That's right.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett43:10

        S- you know, generally. Espe- at least in the short term.

    27. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula43:12

        In the short term.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett43:13

        Yeah.

    29. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula43:13

        But the thing is, then they'll cash out.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett43:15

        Yeah, or their bad ethics will catch up with them.
15. 43:40 – 47:39

    Does Money Make You More Narcissistic?

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula43:40

    2. SBSteven Bartlett43:40

       What about money? Um, does money make you more narcissistic?

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula43:45

       Here's where it gets to be an interesting conversation, and I write about this actually more in my other book, In- Don't You Know Who I Am?, where I- I- i- money breeds privilege, money breeds entitle- entitlement. There's what I call the sort of phenomenon of feet that never touch the ground, right? If people have enough money, they're whizzed to airports in cars, they don't stand in the TSA line with the unwashed masses like the rest (laughs) of us do.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett44:06

       (laughs)

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula44:06

       They're taken to the best hotel suites. They are... They don't think about where their next meal is coming from, it's brought to them. They don't, they don't do the, all the, the stuff that the rest of us do. They don't tolerate the indignities, and they don't have to regulate the same way. So when a person has money for long enough, that feet never touching the ground creates what I call this sort of privileged entitlement. It doesn't-

    6. SBSteven Bartlett44:28

       Assholes.

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula44:28

       What's that? Maybe assholes, but maybe not. I think it's also that bubble-wrapped way that they go through life. Like they actually don't understand how to use the self-checkout at Target. Like-

    8. SBSteven Bartlett44:38

       Did you hear the Paul Piff study from the University of California?

    9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula44:40

       Oh, yeah, yeah. He's great, by the way. He's wonderful. Which w- he did so many. Which study are you referring to?

    10. SBSteven Bartlett44:45

        Um, the one where people are made to feel wealthier, and when they feel wealthier, they were more likely to-

    11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula44:52

        Yes.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett44:52

        ... endorse unethical decisions-

    13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula44:54

        Yes, yes.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett44:54

        ... such as stealing office supplies-

    15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula44:55

        Mm-hmm.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett44:56

        ... and stealing candy. People who were made to feel wealthier also gave less to charity.

    17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula45:00

        Yep.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett45:00

        People who were, who were made to feel wealthier expressed happiness through feelings that were self-focused such as through pride, um, contentment, and amusement.

    19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula45:07

        Mm-hmm.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett45:07

        And people who felt less wealthy-

    21. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula45:09

        Mm-hmm.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett45:10

        ... were more likely to agree with statements that were focused on others.

    23. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula45:13

        That's right.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett45:13

        Which kind of suggests that being wealthier and feeling wealthier makes you more of an asshole.

    25. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula45:18

        Makes you more of an asshole and makes you more self-referential, right? So I think that... You know, does that make sense that-

    26. SBSteven Bartlett45:24

        That's surprising.

    27. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula45:24

        Yeah.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett45:24

        You'd think it'd be the other way around.

    29. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula45:25

        Not at all. Not at all, because I think that... Again, it's... Paul's research is great, by the way. He's wonderful. He actually did another research study where he studied, um... He l- he went to busy, uh, intersections in Orange County. He's a professor at UC Irvine, or was at the time when I met him, um, and they'd go to busy intersections, stop signs, not red lights, and he found that people who drove luxury cars were s- far less likely to sp- make a full stop at the stop sign and peop- compared to people who had more sort of, n- you know, middle-level cars. I mean, it was fascinating. So there's... And, and there's, there's at least a dozen published studies that show that narcissistic people drive more dangerously, so it's an interesting kind of an accumulation, but p- per the money part, I don't beli-... Like if a person was a full-grown adult-

    30. SBSteven Bartlett46:10

        Mm-hmm.
16. 47:39 – 50:55

    How Do You Know If You Are A Narcissist

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula47:39

    2. SBSteven Bartlett47:39

       How do you know if you are a narcissist? D- like, does a narcissist know they are one? Is there a, a narcissist test one can do?

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula47:48

       I don't... There's about five to six tests out there that are designed to detect narcissism in its various ways. All of them have flaws, like I said, and it's n- it's not even fully the fault of the tests because this is a very difficult thing to measure, right? We're a- we're trying to measure things that are not socially desirable, right? That's really tough to measure. So a lot of the narcissism tests will measure things like, eh, and some entitlement, assertiveness, um, self-importance that s- people may not find as offensive, but, uh, but the research actually shows that narcissistic people overestimate their empathy and underestimate their negative effect on other people. They do not have a clear look at themselves. They really have an almost deluded sense of who they are and how they go through the world. So when a person says to me, "I think I'm narcissistic," I always say, "Hold the presses. You need to tell me a little bit about you," because there's a lot of people out there...... who think of themselves as narcissistic because they're in relationships with narcissistic people who have told them over the years, "You are such a selfish person," because this unfortunate person is doing simple things like saying, "Hey, could we go where I wanna go for dinner (laughs) once?" Or, you know, "I wanna talk about my feelings." And then their narcissistic partner's saying, "Oh my gosh, you're so selfish." And they're really sort of indoctrinated into this idea or gaslighted into this idea that there's something narcissistic about them. Once we clear the decks of that, is there a subset of people out there who are narcissistic and are kind of in some awareness like, "This might be who I am"? Yes, and we call them self-aware narcissistic people. They're out there. Some of them view narcissism as their superpower. They say like, "Don't take this away from me. This is why I've got the edge. This is why I closed the sale. This is why I'm the man." I had one client who was like, "I'm the man." I'm like-

    4. SBSteven Bartlett49:40

       Yes.

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula49:40

       ... "Oh my gosh, you sound like a six-year-old, but okay."

    6. SBSteven Bartlett49:43

       Do people, men come to you, women come to you and say, "I am a narcissist"?

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula49:46

       Yes. I've had that happen. It's not common. I th- I can count on one hand the number of times it's happened. Yeah.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett49:51

       And did you agree with them when they-

    9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula49:52

       I, in about an hour, yeah.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett49:55

        H- what were they... How did they figure out they were a narcissist? What were they saying?

    11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula49:59

        They might have read, l- l- they might have read my books or s- more, pr- more likely saw a YouTube video. They might have s- you know, sort of, again, seen my content. Someone might have called, said that to them and then they looked it up on (laughs) Google and they're like, "Mm, that is kind of me." But they did in many ways rationalize it, saying, "This is why I always close the deal. This is who I am." Like, you know, what was it? Don't hate the... Don't hate the player, hate the game. They would try that kinda stuff with me, and I'd say, "But your behavior's offensive. Like this is not okay. What you're doing, what you did, you're- you're doing on an ongoing basis to your spouse or partner is not okay." And so they would have that awareness like almost like from a checklist. "Yeah, like, yeah, I don't care that much about people's feelings, and yeah, I guess I kinda think the rules don't apply to me." They'll have that awareness. It's pretty uncommon. Like I said, most narcissistic people veer into this idea of they overestimate their goodness and generosity and underestimate how, um, how negatively they're viewed by other people.

17. 50:55 – 54:17

    What People Get Attracted To Narcissist?

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula50:55

    2. SBSteven Bartlett50:55

       So let's talk then about the impacts of narcissism on relationships-

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula50:58

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett50:59

       ... in particular. What kind of people do narcissists attract in relationships and what kind of people are-

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula51:07

       Mm-hmm.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett51:07

       ... attracted to narcissists?

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula51:08

       So it's, it's such a good question. I'm so glad you asked it. What kind of people do they attract? Everyone's attracted to narcissistic people. They're charming. They're charismatic. They're confident. They're, and research has shown they're often rated as more attractive than other people. They take good care of their bodies. They know lots of interesting things. They're so concerned about hip cred that (laughs) they are like... They know the cool restaurants. They... All of us have been indoctrinated (laughs) to think that these are the people we're supposed to be dating, right? Who says no to charm, charisma, and attractiveness? Me maybe, but just about (laughs) nobody else would do that. So we're all attracted to them, right? Until... M- and even with the vulnerable narcissistic folks you'll say, "Really? Someone's gonna be attracted to sullen and resentful?" Well, that's not how they come off when you first meet them. Many times a vulnerable narcissistic person looks like a vulnerable child who needs to be rescued. So if you like rescuing people or puppies or any small vulnerable creature, that's gonna seem actually very attractive to you. So we're all attracted to them. What about, what are they attracted to in us? They're at- what they're attracted to in us is our supply. Now, supply can mean different things to different narcissistic folks. Classical sorts of supply are, are we attractive? If we're attractive, if we have some form of social status, if we have resource, if we have connections, the things that would get them supply. Here's where it gets wonky, 'cause the question... Attractiveness is... "What attracts people?" is almost the wrong question. The more deep question is what gets people stuck in narcissistic relationships? Because narcissistic relationships start strong. These are people who are running their fastest miles in the beginning of the marathon. Like they're just like, "Go." And y- this is, these can often feel like a fairytale. It is... It's glamorous and it's exciting and it's... Y- their dates are really interesting and they're very attuned. They may be very attentive. They focus on you and they figure what's gonna work for you. If they really wanna keep you close, it's... They wanna, they wanna get you and they wanna get you quick, 'cause then you're like a butterfly under glass. Then they've got you captured, because after all this good stuff happens, you've bought in. You might even be dubious for a while saying, "This seems, seems too good to be true," or, "I don't know." But then people, after about... I always say it's somewhere between six weeks and six months, the devaluing stage starts, and then it's they've got you, right? And they, they... You might get the passive-aggressive digs, the minimizations, the lack of empathy, the withdrawing, the withholding. And people will say, "Where did that first six weeks go?" So you're like, "Wait a minute. We had such a good time." And as the devaluing begins, people start to blame themselves. So people who are more empathic, more forgiving, more optimistic, these are the kinds of people who get stuck, because they're making allowances for this. They're saying, "I mean, I can't... I, they, they were lovely and they did say they're having a really stressful time at work, but their behavior is consistently dismissive and rude." And so you keep making excuses, excuses, excuses. But then there's a few good days sprinkled in

18. 54:17 – 56:08

    How To Know If My Partner Is A Narcissist

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula54:17

       there.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett54:18

       So one of the interesting things is, um, a lot of people are trying to figure out if their partners are narcissists.

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula54:24

       Hm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett54:25

       Do people in relationships, especially long-term relationships, tend to know that they're dating a narcissist? Or has the nas- or has the narcissist gaslighted them to the point that they, they don't know?

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula54:36

       Until recently, most people did not know because it's, it feels like a disloyal thing to know about your partner. Many people say, "I love my partner. We have built a life together." There are enough good days that leave them thinking like, "There's something here." They're confused. People in these relationships are confused. They're...They blame themselves for everything that goes wrong, they're walking on eggshells. They've, in essence, modified themselves to be exactly what the narcissistic partner wants. But it's a slow burn, it's- it's a very slow process of indoctrination. I always say these relationships are death by a thousand cuts because it just- e- each of these things happen slowly over time, and so almost as a one day you wake up and you're like, "Who am I? Like, what have I become? I'm literally, like, living in service to this other person." It's only in the last 10 years, I'd say, that there's so much more content and the internet is more robust with making this... And I'm sure people type it in, "My partner has no empathy, and is really entitled, and yells at me a lot," ping, and the narcissism pops out at you. I think this really created the revolution of people saying, "What is this?" And even when I wrote Should I Stay or Should I Go, that was 2015, I think it was, we were still in the beginning phases. There were just maybe about a dozen books out there taking this on. And so we- it's- it's a... As more information gets out there, more people are clear that this is happening in their relationships, the hope is the earlier you identify it, the less indoctrinated, the less what we call trauma bonded you become, and then the easier it would be to make clear-headed decisions about how you wanna proceed.

19. 56:08 – 1:00:04

    The Three Rs: How To Know If You're In A Negative Relationship

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula56:08

    2. SBSteven Bartlett56:08

       You talk about the three Rs-

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula56:10

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett56:10

       ...that are the hallmarks of negative relationships in your books.

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula56:12

       Mm-hmm.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett56:13

       What are the three Rs?

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula56:14

       So the first is rumination, okay? That r- the rumination is, it's an obsessive thinking about the relationship, and it's usually in an attempt to either say, "What did I do wrong? What happened? What is going on?" It's a trying to fix it.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett56:28

       So these are the three things that someone that's in a relationship with a narcissist will do?

    9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula56:33

       Mm-hmm. Yup.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett56:34

        Okay.

    11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula56:34

        I mean, they do a lot more, but these are three common ones. So the rumination is a hallmark characteristic of a person in a narcissistic relationship. In essence, you're just trying to make sense of something that makes no sense. The next R is regret, and that regret links to bigger themes like grief. People having regret that, "This is the parent I have, and I will never have a close, loving relationship with them." The regret that, "This is the marriage I created, and my children will never get a healthy model of marriage." The regret that, "I've spent 20 years in this relationship, and really all I have to show for it is a whole lot of nothing except that it's harmed me." So the regrets play out even big ways and even small ways, like, "Why did I say that? Why didn't I say it that way?" And then the last R is, is really euphoric recall, the R being for recall. By euphoric recall, I mean that people in narcissistic relationships (laughs) have an uncanny ability to sort of cherry pick the good things that happen in the relationship to keep rationalizing it and justifying it to themselves. So they might be in a narcissistic relationship where the person has really treated them heinously for a month, but on one day of that month, the narcissistic person, when they went to the grocery store, for the first time remembered to bring home two muffins so that you could have a muffin. And the person's like, "They brought me home the best blueberry muffin. Wasn't that thoughtful? They brought me home a muffin. We had muffins together." So the euphoric recall is the over-focus on those good experiences as a way, in essence, to create this sort of psychological buy-in so then you can maintain the status quo. For people in narcissistic relationships, it's not as though they're waking up saying, "This is a hellscape. I wanna get out." They're getting up saying, "I'm so confused. I feel like I'm never enough. Nothing I do is ever enough. Nothing I say is ever- they're not listening to me. What is going on? Maybe I'm not being clear enough. Maybe there's something wrong with me." So that's the confusion element. So it's not like everyone's saying, "I wanna get out of this." There's a lot of history. There's a lot of experiences together. So people, again... And they're also confused 'cause there's good things that happen and bad things that happen, and that's what creates, like I said, this thing called the trauma bonded relationship. So people might even be able to say, like, "There's something about this that isn't okay." And might even be able to art- ar- articulate, "These are the problems in the relationship, but the idea of leaving this relationship fills me with an absolute sense of panic."

    12. SBSteven Bartlett59:00

        Would- would a narcissist play to that insecurity and that, um, that history?

    13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula59:07

        Well, the narcissistic person created the insecurity, and they- they will because the narcissistic person is an expert tactician, right? 'Cause that's what they bring to relationships is tactics. And so they are very expert at knowing, like, "Ah, your wound is abandonment. Piece of cake." So if you say, "I- I can't do this anymore. I'm out," the narcissistic partner will say, "Okay, cool. Let's call it quits." You'll be like, " (gasps) That's not what I wanted them to say. I wanted them to say they were gonna fight for the relationship." You see what I'm saying? Like, they... It's so interesting because-

    14. SBSteven Bartlett59:36

        Like a puppet master.

    15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula59:36

        And part of the reason narcissistic people are so successful is because they're so socially perceptive. They have no empa- Social perceptiveness and empathy are not the same thing.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett59:46

        What are they?

    17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula59:47

        Social s- perceptiveness is kind of being aware of... Reading the room, understanding what people need, understanding what makes them tick and what they want, and then strategically giving it to them to keep them on the chain or keep them in the position you need them in. That's not empathic.

20. 1:00:04 – 1:01:32

    Pathological Manipulation

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:00:05

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:05

       Manipulation. You used the word earlier on to describe narcissism. There's two types of manipulation you speak about, which is the- the sort of normal manipulation, which I think we all do in our own ways when we're trying to get our way with a deal-

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:00:18

       Yes.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:18

       ...or with sales, or with someone, or whatever. When we're trying to haggle for a discount, whatever it might be. And then there's this pathological manipulation-

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:00:25

       Mm-hmm.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:25

       ...which seems to be a little bit different.

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:00:27

       Mm-hmm. Yeah, pathological manipulation is that there's absolutely no regard for the harm it's bringing the other person. You really are giving absolute primacy to your own needs and then making the other person think that this truly is good for them. This isn't as simple as, "I'm gonna sell this car to someone. Eh, maybe it's not the right car for them." This is really around psychological stuff. And it's with somebody where, listen, you're going into a sales relationship. You understand what the, sort of the...... codes of that relationship are. They're trying to sell you something, and you're trying to decide if it's right for you. We don't try to think of our intimate and our familial relationships as sales models, so our guard is not up in the same way, and yet the same tactics are being brought, and we're sort of bargaining on things that are matters of the heart and matters of closeness and compassion. So it's again, the narcissistic person is so skilled at leaving the other person feeling that the thing they sacrificed or gave up was in their best interest and, and ultimately the narcissistic person is so self-centered that anything that they're trying to do is going to serve them.

21. 1:01:32 – 1:04:56

    What's Projection?

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:01:32

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:32

       Projection. I've heard this phrase used a few times, like, "He's projecting onto you."

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:01:36

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:36

       Or, "She's projecting." In the context of narcissism, what is projection?

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:01:40

       Mm-hmm. So projection is cl- is a primitive defense that any of us can use, and we do use. All of us engage in projection. We enj- engage in projection when some of that uncomfortable, unconscious stuff inside of us is getting activated, it's often shame-oriented, and then we'll accuse someone of something that we're actually feeling, like an uncomfortable feeling. That's projection. We all do it.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:00

       Give me an example.

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:02:01

       Um...

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:02

       How you might project onto me?

    9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:02:03

       Uh, okay. Uh, we're in a, we're in a relationship, and I'll say something like, "Who are you texting, Steven? Like, why, what, what are you, like, gah, so shady. Like, you know, why don't you show your, show me your phone? Like wh- Oh my gosh, Steven, like what the hell? W- You need so many, you need so all the girls to like you, don't you? Like that's what you're all you're about. Show me your phone. Show me your phone! Show me your phone now."

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:24

        Okay.

    11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:02:26

        Guess who's got a side piece? That would be me.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:29

        Oh, really? Oh.

    13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:02:32

        There's a life hack for you, Steven.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:34

        Okay, so you're, you're insecure because you know that you're sneaking around-

    15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:02:37

        I'm not insecure. I, I'm doing a bad thing.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:40

        Are you still pretending? Or... (laughs)

    17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:02:43

        (laughs)

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:43

        Yeah (laughs) .

    19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:02:43

        Oh, no. I am no longer in a relationship.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:45

        Okay (laughs) . Okay, we're over.

    21. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:02:46

        So we're done.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:46

        Okay.

    23. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:02:46

        That's because you cheated on me.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:48

        Okay, wow, Jesus.

    25. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:02:48

        Even though you didn't, but it was me. But now I can go be with my new guy.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:51

        Ah, okay.

    27. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:02:52

        Um, so but it's, I'm giving you, like, such a low-hanging fruit example. It's any time, we might accuse someone of lying when we're lying. We may accuse somebody of, um, even being insecure when we're the one feeling insecure, right? We'll accuse someone of being uncomfortable when we're the one being un- unc- who's feeling uncomfortable. And all of us have different stuff we project about, 'cause all of us have different sort of psychodynamic histories, right? Well, narcissistic people do this all the time. Let me give you sort of a sense of what the inner psychological apparatus of a n- a narcissistic person looks like. Despite all the shiny, charismatic, charming, arrogant, grandiose stuff on the outside, what's in them is, uh, the best I can describe it is a volcano, right? And that volcano, the magma and the gases and the lava, is shame and it's insecurity. Well, that's not very perfect-looking, is it? So all these defenses, the grandiosity and the arrogance and the charm and all the rest of it, is like a manhole cover, a big manhole cover that covers the volcano. So all that insecurity that's exist, "I'm, I'm just the smartest person you know," right? So they get to show up as perfect, as extraordinary. But things can kick that manhole cover off. Criticism, negative feedback, their friend doing better than them, their new venture not succeeding, um, them not getting something that they wanted, some form of frustration. That means they're not perfect. The manhole cover gets nudged. The gases and the lava ooze out, and what does that look like? It looks like anger, it looks like projection. You accuse the other, and this happens to them 20 times a day, 'cause nobody lives a perfect life. We get disappointed all the time. There's traffic on the freeway, there, we had to wait for the elevator, the c- people at the coffee shop screwed up our order, our p- our public offering didn't go well. It could be big things, it could be small things, it doesn't matter. But each time the manhole cover gets nudged, that grandiose exterior gets tinged and they pyoom, they explode on others, and that often looks like projection. And that projection allows them to maintain that idealized interior.

22. 1:04:56 – 1:06:31

    Can They Take Feedback

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:04:57

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:57

       Can they take feedback, narcissists?

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:05:00

       Mm-mm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:00

       Like do they listen to the, do they-

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:05:02

       No.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:02

       I- m- they could, they can't take feedback?

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:05:03

       They really don't, they c- they cannot. The only time a narcissistic person may, may tiny bit listen to feedback is if it comes from somebody with much, much more power than them, because narcissistic people are very hierarchical climbing creatures, right? So let's say they're getting a, the CEO's up here and they're some sort of VP level person here and they admire the CEO and the CEO's giving them feedback. They will listen because they want to be him, they want to be with him, they want to be next to, or her or them, whoever the CEO is, right? But I, so they may get some of it but they're still gonna hear it as rrrrr, or there'll be this rrrrr noise that's blocking them out from hearing all of it.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:48

       So it might be compliance...

    9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:05:50

       Yes.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:50

        ... as a means to an end versus them actually going, "Oh, okay." And-

    11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:05:53

        Uh, no, yeah, they're not integrating into, they're, they're just sort of, and they might even think like, "God, this person's such a dick. Like, ugh, I could, I could do their job so much better. They're so lucky they got there. I'm gonna get there." But they, they again, they also envy this person. So they are listening but like you said, it is exactly what you said, it's compliance versus the sense of let me listen to this. And I can promise you what this person's gonna do if they're in a relationship, they're gonna go home and rage at their partner because they had to have that feedback session. They're gonna find a more vulnerable target 'cause they can't attack that CEO and they'll go and find someone else to rage at. A partner, a person on the subway train, a family member, friend,

23. 1:06:31 – 1:11:25

    Gaslighting, What Is It?

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:06:31

       someone else.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:32

       I heard this word gaslighting. Again, it's a word I've heard a lot but, uh, um, not necessarily really clear on what the definition of gaslighting is, but from reading your work I hear that narcissists gaslight people a lot.

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:06:42

       A lot, right.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:43

       What is gaslighting?

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:06:43

       So gaslighting, uh, at, at its simplest it's a power play, it's a form of emotional abuse, and it's a tactic. Gaslighting is predicated on a relationship that's ostensibly car- characterized by trust, so that's why strangers can't gaslight you in the same way as an intimate partner, a trusted colleague, a family member, even a person with expertise like an attorney or a physician could gaslight you, right? 'Cause there's a p- there's a presumption of trust so you're gonna listen to the gaslighter.Initially, what the gaslighter will do is they will doubt the gaslighted person's perceptions, experiences, memories, even reality. "That never happened. I never said that. You're making that up." That- y- "We never went there." So now this person's a little confused, because their reality's saying, "Yeah, we did. Yeah, we did." So initially, a person will fight back against the gaslighter. They'll say, "We absolutely went there. Do you want me to show you the pictures on my phone?" Then we go to the next step of gaslighting. The gaslighter doesn't wanna see the pictures on your phone. They just want to overpower you. This isn't about evidence. This is about them overpowering you. So they'll say, "Look. Here's the pictures on my phone." And then the gaslighter won't say, "Well, you're right. We did go there." Instead, they'll say, "Oh my gosh. You are the most petty human being I've ever met. Is this what it is? You're just gonna go through..." yeah, yeah, yeah, "on your phone to find the pictures to prove something to me? Is that what this relationship is? I don't know that I want to even be in a relationship like this." Now, this poor person who's being gaslighted is thinking, "I just showed them the pictures to prove a point and now I'm the bad one." And so they're- and they trust this person, so they think, "Well, maybe I am doing something bad. Maybe I am being petty." But gaslighting doesn't happen once. It happens over, and over, and over again. It's an indoctrination process that leaves the gaslighted person utterly confused, completely out of their mind, doubting themselves, and they start to believe the critiques. Then the gaslighter will tell them things like, "You're crazy. You're stupid. You don't remember things right. Maybe you have dementia. Do you think you should be in therapy? You might need to be on medication." Like, by the time the gaslighter's done with someone, they have lost all sense of... They don't- they don't trust themselves at all. And so if they don't leave the relationship, and some people don't, they are then sort of in this, again, this form of servitude with the narcissistic person or gaslighting person, almost relying on them to lead them through reality. So it's almost like utter submission at that point, that they get- the n- the gaslighter gets to dictate reality. And then, over time, there's- there's this- there's this tactic that narcissistic and other abusive people use called DARVO. DARVO stands for deny, attack, reverse victim, and offender. It's a construct that was developed by Dr. Jennifer Freyd. Deny, attack, reverse victim, and offender. So, what the narcissistic person will in a very skilled, I mean in a cruelly skillful way do, is if the person, the gaslighted person ever attempts to push back on something that the narcissist has does- do-done, like, "You came- you said you were gonna be home by nine o'clock last night. You didn't get home 'til one in the morning," the narcissistic person will deny, said, "That's not true. I came- yeah, I didn't get home at 9:00, but I didn't come home at any 1:00 in the morning. But again, like, what is your problem? Like, what do you do? Like, you read the ADT guide all day to see what time I come in the door? And you know what? Like, I can't believe that this is my life. I work so hard to keep us in this fabulous house. I work so hard so you can stay home, and I'm the bad guy? Like, I can't even believe that this is the issue. Like, you put me through so much." Reverse victim and offender. He was out 'til 1:00 in the morning and he knows it, but now he's shut down the conversation. It is an insidious dynamic, because done enough, you literally strip another person of their reality, and that is unacceptable to me. That's absolute abuse.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:49

       Do you see this a lot?

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:10:50

       All the time. All the time. It is the dynamic that once it had name to it... When the word is used right, most people use this word wrong, that whole process I described is gaslighting. When the word is used correctly, it's powerful. It captures a unique interpersonal dynamic that really eats people from the inside out. I hear it, I see it all the time, f- by family members, by partners, in the workplace, you name it, and it really messes people up because they- they feel like they've lost their minds and they feel like they can't trust themselves, and I think that's a terrible thing to do

24. 1:11:25 – 1:13:46

    How To Deal With Being Gaslit

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:11:25

       to someone.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:26

       What should you do if you're being gaslit?

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:11:29

       When you know what it is and someone starts to gaslight you, they literally deny your reality, right? You have to take a step back and say, "That's not what happened," but you don't say it to them. The importance with gaslighting is you don't engage with the gaslighter. You now know you're being gaslighted, which means the other person in that interaction has the capacity to gaslight you. So what that means is, from your side, you need to shut it down, and that means no longer engaging. Does that make... So, you cannot keep engaging with them, 'cause they're gonna pull you down.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:03

       Further and further.

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:12:04

       Yeah. They're gonna- it's almost like they're gonna pull you down into- into being drowned or pull you into the quicksand. So, when they start gaslighting, "I never said that," one playback could be, "We're having a different experience then," and leave it at that.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:19

       Don't go down that slippery slope.

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:12:20

       Don't go down the slope. Don't say- don't show them the text message, don't pull out the email, don't try to prove them wrong, don't engage with them. It's- it's- it's funny you're asking me this 'cause I was recently gaslighted. I wa- uh, in- uh, relatively recently in a professional situation. And I'm thinking, "Not me. Like, I don't know much, but I know this, so don't..." But they did. I was. And I got very upset, and in this particular situation it was actually... I understand why I got... It was like- uh, think of it as a corporate structure that was gaslighting me. So sometimes very nice people who work in corporate systems gaslight 'cause they're trying to prop up the narcissism of the corporation, but they're decent human beings, and it was very clear to me. I've seen that happen. But in this particular case, I was being gaslighted. I got upset though, knowing all I know, knowing all the tactics. It's very dehumanizing to have your reality completely doubted, and so I- I did feel a sense of upset. But I confronted the person, I said......this is gaslighting and it's not okay, and I know you're better than this. And they ha- happened to be. This was a lucky case with the nar- the gaslighter was not narcissistic, so we came to a conclusion. But when I've been gaslighted by narcissistic people, I just disengage, and I file it away and say, "This person is capable of this. This- this- there's really not much juice here. I don't- this can only go so deep."

25. 1:13:46 – 1:15:54

    Do Narcissists Engage In Domestic Behaviour

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:13:46

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:47

       Controlling behavior, emotionally but also, I guess, physically controlling behavior. When we- when we often think about narcissists, we think of like sort of domestic violence and this kind of thing.

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:13:58

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:58

       Is that quite typical of a narc- narcissist to engage in domestic violence?

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:14:01

       So here's where we get to an interesting question. You're from the UK, and I have to say, actually, of all the countries in the world, the UK actually has had- has taken the front, I think, the- the- the highest front position in terms of being very- creating public policies around understanding the psychological elements of domestic violence. It was actually coercive control laws first showed up in the UK. So, uh, this is my personal belief, Steven, and this is my personal belief, and I will hold to this personal belief 100%. I believe all domestic abusers are narcissistic without exception, and I'll tell you why I think that. The capacity to tell someone, "I love you. I'm going to care for you. We're in a relationship," and then to emotionally, physically, or sexually assault them, that's zero empathy. That's tremendous entitlement. It's incredible arrogance. That's narcissism. There's a lack of self-awareness. There's a lack of awareness of the other, and I think this is why so much of the domestic violence intervention programs, they don't work, because how are you gonna undo someone's narcissism? So, that's my belief, and I know that this has been a- this is a very controversial conversation in the field of domestic violence. Back in the '70s, there was a real pushback on this. I don't think that anyone who does domestic violence work will ever doubt that there's a personality issue in these folks, but the concern was if we made it about narcissism, we'll pull the focus away from their behavior, right?

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:34

       Oh, okay.

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:15:34

       But I think the two things go together. The behavior's unacceptable. I don't give a damn if they're narcissistic. And this whole idea of does the narcissism excuse the behavior? Never. If behavior's unacceptable, it's unacceptable. I don't care about the backstory, because it means it's gonna happen again, and it always does.

26. 1:15:54 – 1:18:08

    What Should I Do If My Boss Is A Narcissist

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:15:55

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:55

       Narcissism in work. How do I know if my boss or my manager or my CEO is a narcissist, and what should I do about it? Do I quit the job?

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:16:05

       So if you believe that someone you- you report to, a manager or boss or someone like that in a job, is narcissistic, you're gonna feel it in a sense of you don't feel seen, you don't feel valued, you feel like the workplace is unpredictable, you feel like it's unfair, that it's inequitable. You might even feel that it's psychologically unsafe. You might feel that the way people are praised and get credit for their work, again, it doesn't have rhyme or reason, it is inequitable. It might be a very- there might be a lot of gossip in the workplace. Those are the things that would suggest a workplace is nar- you have- you might be working for someone who's narcissistic. It's a tough one. It might dep- a lot of this might depend on the nature of your organization. I always tell people, "If you suspect that your boss or manager or someone you report to is narcissistic, start documenting the hell out of it," because one thing HR doesn't care is you- you cannot roll up to an HR office and say, "I think my manager's narcissistic." You're gonna need documentation, which means saving emails and text messages and voicemails and m- meetings- me- uh, minutes of meetings, and... You know, you- you're gonna need as much information. Try to avoid meetings alone, all that stuff, to have that sort of evidence base. If you're at a large enough company where you might be able to switch to work under someone else's management, especially if you still believe in the company. Some people might say, "I love the organization. I can't stand working with this person." They may find that working with someone else will allow them to preserve in the institution. But in a smaller employer or where that is not possible, some people w- might try to stick it out the best they can, but documenting's not gonna make it easier. So some people will find that ultimately if they can't outlast the narcissistic boss or manager, which they often can't, they will look for other employment. Some people also find a lot of solace in collaboration. So just because you work for a narcissistic manager doesn't mean your colleagues are narcissistic, and there's some interesting research suggesting that some really in- um, powerful, collaborative relationships can come when the leadership is narcissistic, but the- the teams actually come together even stronger. It's almost like they're united against a

27. 1:18:08 – 1:22:40

    Can You Get Out From A Narcissistic Person

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:18:08

       common enemy.

Episode duration: 1:42:28