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The Diary of a CEOThe Diary of a CEO

Why porn rewires dopamine and shuts lonely men out of dating

How porn hijacks dopamine and the bonding circuits real relationships need; he warns a generation of men is being selected out of dating and reproduction.

Dr. Alok Kanojia (Dr. K)guestSteven Bartletthost
Jul 7, 20251h 57mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:32

    Intro

    1. AK

      Any time we watch pornography, masturbate, and get sexual stimulation, our negative emotions like fear and anxiety, that part of your brain just gets suppressed. And this is where people get into a lot of trouble, because suppressed emotions just grow over time. So the more guilty I become, the more of a loser I become. The harder it is to date, the worse I feel about myself, the more I fall into pornography. So this becomes a, a neurological cycle. But here's the real problem: all addictions are on the rise, and this is why.

    2. SB

      Dr. K is back, and the Harvard-trained psychiatrist is breaking down modern mental health, addiction- And the non-traditional ways to break away from their cycles.

    3. AK

      There's lots of stuff happening around us that affects our lives that we have no control over. For example, because of the dating and mating crisis, we no longer have sexual connections, emotional connections, and there's a part of the brain that is getting starved 'cause sex is so important. So there's something missing in our lives, and that's what is necessary for addiction to grow. And this is creating huge problems, because it's sort of like if I fill up your stomach with unhealthy food, you don't have any micronutrients, but you're not gonna crave broccoli. So that's what's happening in our society. We're using porn as a substitute for relationships, and that's creating these really strong societal pressures, including a mass extinction event, because we've got 32-year-olds who do not know how they're gonna ever have children. Men are getting really, really angry. There's like this incel movement. Like women feel safer with a wild bear than they do with a man.

    4. SB

      I mean, there's, there's a lot that I'm thinking about, like what do you do about this?

    5. AK

      The whole reason we get trapped in a cycle of addiction is because we have one solution to one problem. The moment that we create a second solution, a lot of things change, and we'll get to that.

    6. SB

      What, what about psychedelics?

    7. AK

      So here's the real problem with psychedelics-

    8. SB

      Listen, to my regular listeners, I know you don't like it when I ask you to subscribe at the start of these conversations. I don't like saying it, I don't like it being in there. None of us like it. It's frustrating. Do you know what's also frustrating? It's also frustrating when I go into the back end of a YouTube channel and I see that 56% of you that listen frequently to this podcast haven't yet subscribed, and so many of you don't even know that you haven't subscribed, because I see in the comments section you say to me, you go, "I didn't even realize I didn't subscribe." And that actually fuels the show. It's basically like you're making a donation to the show. So that's why I ask all the time, because it enables us to build and build and build and build, and we're going for the long term here. So all I'd ask you is if you've seen his show before and you like it, help me, help my team here, hit the subscribe button and we'll continue to build this show for you. That's my promise. Thank you to all of you guys that do subscribe. It means the world to me. Let's get on with the show. Dr. K.

    9. AK

      Stephen, what's up

  2. 2:32 – 3:33

    Who Is Dr. K?

    1. AK

      dude?

    2. SB

      We've obviously met several times before, but for those of you that might not be familiar, who are you and what do you do?

    3. AK

      I'm a psychiatrist, and what I try to do is help people understand themselves, because one of the harsh lessons of the world that we live in today is there's lots of stuff happening around us that affects our lives that we have no control over. So if you look at fundamentally, you know, there's like war, there's inflation, there's like a dating and mating crisis, like whatever. There's AI, there are all these like existential threats, but like you as a human can do nothing about any of that. All you can really control is like the bounds of what's in here, right? That's like literally the only thing that you have control over. And so, um, one of the lessons I learned very early on, I, I spent years studying to become a monk, was that if I can learn how to master this, then the rest of the world becomes way more manageable, um, at a minimum, and hopefully incredibly easy.

  3. 3:33 – 4:47

    Understanding You Can Only Control Yourself

    1. AK

    2. SB

      Is there a step one in understanding that this is all we can control and taking control of just this? Is there a first step that you went through?

    3. AK

      Abs- absolutely, yeah. The first step is uh, trying to control things outside of me and failing miserably time after time after time-

    4. SB

      Check (laughs) .

    5. AK

      ... a- a- 'cause I think it's wild, right? So I, I think it's like most people will try to get their boss to do something, try to get their boyfriend to do something, try to get their girlfriend, and forget about boyfriend/girlfriend, this person that I am texting-

    6. SB

      (laughs)

    7. AK

      ... right, try to get them to respond. And we spend so much of our energy trying to shape the world to fit us. And this has also been the direction of like technology too, where we don't wanna change anymore. We want the things around us to adapt to our environments, like air conditioning. I don't wanna change my tolerance to heat. I wanna change the entire space that I live in to be more comfortable for me. And this is creating huge problems, because I wanna change the environment to suit my preferences, you wanna change the environment to suit your preferences, and then we have to be in the same room. So this is why we fight over where the climate

  4. 4:47 – 5:44

    Risk of Wanting to Change Our External Environment

    1. AK

      control is.

    2. SB

      And what's the risk there then of, of us having this focus on changing our external environment? Obviously we're gonna fight, but is there any other risk in that? Is it just gonna be that me and you, our relationship's gonna fray when you want a certain temperature and I want a different temperature?

    3. AK

      That's a huge problem, right? So I think if we look at like conflict in the world, it is two groups of people wanting the world to be different. So I want the boundaries of my country to be here. You want the boundaries of... you wanna move that line somewhere else, and this is literally why wars start. So I, I think that what we spend a lot of time and energy in is trying to shape the world towards us, but that is not fundamentally possible. And so instead, like we could be investing that energy into ourselves, learn how to craft myself into, let's say perfection. Loaded word which carries a lot of stuff, but the, the moment that you do that, things become really, really easy.

  5. 5:44 – 7:30

    Internal Work Will Manifest Outward

    1. AK

    2. SB

      Things become really easy?

    3. AK

      Yeah, so I think if you look at like, um, you know, there's a ton of research that shows that, you know, happiness, productivity, success, all of these three things like come together. So the, one, one of the biggest mistakes I think people make in society is like they talk about work/life balance, like that's wrong. Work/life balance implies that you have to make a sacrifice for the other thing, right, that these two... I, I don't think that that's actually technically true. If you, if you look at the way that society really... I mean the way that a human being really works, people who are happy with their work-... will feel happy and they will work the best, right? The outcomes from their productivity will be higher. This is not a trade-off that we need to make. The biggest problem is that most people are forced to make trade-offs, and then what they try to do is they try to find the perfect job. And this is what's so silly, right? People will say, "Do what you love for work and you'll never work a day in your life." Right? Like, people will say, like, "I- if your passion becomes your job, like, you'll never work a day in your life." And then there are other people who also say, you know, "Keep your passion as your passion because the moment it becomes your job, you'll start to hate it."

    4. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    5. AK

      And that's, like, how can both of these things be true? It's, uh, and it kind of is, like, there's no way to win. So I think that's where, like, winning happens internally, and once you start doing that, and there's tons of research about flow state and things like that, that once you become happy internally, even in terms of relationship success, you know, if you carry a lot of unhappiness with you in a relationship, it won't work well. So internal work, like, will manifest outward, and I don't mean that in a spiritual sense, I mean that, like, in a, I mean, uh, that is true, but in, in like a very concrete sense, right? If you show up at work and you feel happy, like, people will like you more, you'll be more productive.

  6. 7:30 – 9:51

    How to Stop Having a Bad Day

    1. AK

    2. SB

      And is, so is there a second step? So I understand, I tried to control the world, I wasn't successful. Step two is to focus that energy inwards and take control of my internal state, which is difficult because it feels to us like we're very much being dragged often by our temptations, the dopamine receptors in our brain or something.

    3. AK

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      And we have a bad night's sleep, we wake up in a bad mood, and then we have a bad day, that's how it feels.

    5. AK

      So, so and I, I think if we sort of think about it, right, so it's like, uh, you know, I, I started my car this morning. I, I looked at the gas tank. There was only a little bit of gas left, and then I ended up on the highway without any gas. I ran out of gas, right? That's, one follows the other. Like, that's how it feels, right? Like, I just, I left and I'm like, "Oh, no, I'm running low on gas," and then I run out of gas. That's what happens logically, right?

    6. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. AK

      So how do you fix that problem?

    8. SB

      Go to the gas station. (laughs)

    9. AK

      Absolutely. The whole problem is, if I ask you what does go to the gas station, what's the equivalent in that analogy for a human being, no one knows. You're like, right, so if I were to ask you, okay, you wake up, you slept poorly, you wake up. Now you're in a bad mood, therefore you have a bad day. You're assuming that those two things are connected. Those two things, uh, I mean, are connected, but only if you don't know how to go to the gas station. So there are literally everything from, like, practices to things you can eat to all kinds of things to alter that chain of causality. And so I think the second step is first of all understanding what is going on inside you. How, how do, how can you move the leisure, levers? What is the internal chain of causality? And once you understand that, then you can start to implement change, and that's when it becomes easy. So if you sort of think about it, like, I know it sounds weird because it sounds really hard, but literally, the difference between something hard and something easy is whether you know how to do it.

    10. SB

      Hmm.

    11. AK

      Right? (laughs)

    12. SB

      Yeah.

    13. AK

      It's like, oh, like the Rubik's Cube is hard. Like, a Rubik's Cube is hard, but if you know how to do it, it becomes easy. So it's about really understanding where do my desires come from, where do my temptations come from, and here you are trying to control them. Forget about controlling them. Like, I don't like controlling my desires. I hate it. It's hard. It requires a lot of discipline. It requires a lot of willpower. What works way better is sublimating them.

    14. SB

      What does that mean?

    15. AK

      Getting rid of them.

  7. 9:51 – 13:08

    Getting Rid of Desire and Temptations

    1. AK

    2. SB

      How would, how would you put it in the context of pornography in terms of controlling that desire and being productive and not letting it consume you?

    3. AK

      Let's start with pr- first principle. Good diagnosis precedes good treatment, right? So in medicine, the quality, this is what a lot of people think, doctors are about treating people, right, medicine is about treating things, but actually, 50% or more of our training is in diagnosis. So you have to understand the problem, and this is not just true of doctors. This is like if I have a plumber who's coming to my house, whether they can fix what the problem is depends on whether they can find the problem, right? What's actually causing the leak? Then you replace that. So that's true of life in general. So if you have a problem like pornography, the first thing that you have to do is understand why you are addicted to it because that'll show you what you need to fix. And with pornography, I think there are basically, like, five layers to it. The first is a societal layer. There's a reason why all addictions are on the rise. There is a fundamental change in society, in the way that we connect with society, that makes us more addicted to stuff.

    4. SB

      Yeah.

    5. AK

      So if it was in the substance itself, like, in pornography itself, then what we would see is there's a rise only in pornography addiction. But since there's a rise in everything, that means that something is, fundamental is going on. We can get to that a little bit later. Next thing that we need to do about understanding about pornography addiction is understand physiology, neuroscience and psychology. So if we look at pornography addiction, first thing is that it is a very powerful emo- emotional coping mechanism. So the way that our brain is designed is like procreation kind of is the point, right? We can sort of say that, like, the reason that life exists, the purpose of life is to procreate.

    6. SB

      Which means to have kids.

    7. AK

      Yeah, right? So, so this is where if you kind of look at, like, the way that our body and our brain are desi- designed, it's like if the opportunity for sexual relations and procreations is there, then we're gonna push everything else to the side. So any time we watch pornography or we get sexual stimulation, our amygdala, which is our emotional circuit of the brain, experiences negative emotions like fear and anxiety, it's also our survival center of the brain, and you turn on porn, that part of your brain just gets suppressed. And this is why a lot of people don't realize what a pornography addict looks like. A lot of people think it means, like, I'm watching porn and masturbating a lot, but most pornography addicts will watch it and not even necessarily masturbate, or they'll watch it for hours throughout the day and aren't necessarily masturbating during that time.And that's because once you have that stimulation on the side, it's kinda like aromatherapy for your brain. It's kinda suppressing your amygdala, it's kinda calming you down because it has that neurologic effect. The reason that it has that neurologic effect is because sex is so important, right? So these circuits of the brain are very powerfully activated. The other thing that is really addictive about pornography is that it does cause a dopamine secretion. So orgasm feels really good, and so any time we have an orgasm, we get a, a, a surge of dopamine. We get a surge of pleasure. It feels really, really good. And then the other problem that that creates, and this is the curse of humanity, is that

  8. 13:08 – 14:32

    Addiction to Pleasure

    1. AK

      any time we get pleasure, we also buy ourselves craving and motivation. So when we secrete dopamine in the nucleus accumbens, it doesn't just do one thing. These three functions are fundamentally tied together in our neurocircuitry. So if I, you know, drink this and I enjoy it, I will want it tomorrow. That's like, there's no way to escape that effect. So when I gain pleasure from pornography, I am buying myself craving. I am buying myself motivation towards that.

    2. SB

      In the future?

    3. AK

      In the future, 100%. Right? So it's, it's behavioral reinforcement. And then what happens is, so these are the two fundamental pieces at, at a neuroscience level. Then what happens is we kind of find ourselves, like, in a trap because since it is so good at these two things, nothing else is as effective. And we as human beings, if you look at, like, what we're designed to do on a physiologic level, it is to be efficient, so why do we love unhealthy food? Because we evolved in, in areas where if there's one bite that has 300 calories, like, that bite will save you, right? That's, that's what allows you to survive. So what we sort of got is, like, a, a calorie-dense neurological dopamine surge from pornography, and it's also, like, suppresses our emotions really, really, really deeply. And this is, like, like, literally

  9. 14:32 – 15:56

    Why Ignoring Red Flags Favours Evolution

    1. AK

      true. So I don't know if you've ever, you know, if you've been in love or, like, you have friends who are, who are in love, but, like, when you're in love and you're, like, horny for something, right, there's, like, this idea of post-nut clarity and, like-

    2. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AK

      ... pre-nut fog, I guess?

    4. SB

      Yeah.

    5. AK

      So literally the way that our, our lust circuitry works is it suppresses all of these other parts of the brain. It suppresses the part of our brain that assesses risk.

    6. SB

      For someone that doesn't know what that means, could you be a bit, bit more sort of direct?

    7. AK

      Yeah, so like when you fall in love, on the less vulgar side, so when you fall in love, like, you start to do stupid things.

    8. SB

      Yeah.

    9. AK

      Right? Like, you do stupid things when you're in love, and that's not a mistake. That's the way that it's wired, because evolutionarily there were basically two human beings, okay? One who would fall in love and did not do stupid things, and one who did fall in love and did do stupid things. Which one of those two do you think is more likely to procreate?

    10. SB

      When you say stupid things, give me an example.

    11. AK

      Uh, I'm gonna ignore my job. I've just gotten financially stable, and I've fallen in love with someone who has a pile of credit card debt. This is a terrible idea to enter a relationship with them, because I've just gotten all my shit sorted out, and they don't have any of their shit sorted out. So there are all kinds of red flags that we ignore-

    12. SB

      Ah, okay.

    13. AK

      ... on purpose, because if, if we didn't ignore those red flags, then we wouldn't end up procreating.

    14. SB

      Got

  10. 15:56 – 19:26

    Post-Nut Clarity

    1. SB

      you.

    2. AK

      Right?

    3. SB

      You don't wanna be rational in that moment because rationality would say-

    4. AK

      Absolutely, a- a- and, and that's literally what happens. So we have circuits of the brain that will actually inhibit and shut off the rational parts of our brain.

    5. SB

      (laughs)

    6. AK

      And this is where we get to post-nut clarity, which is this experience that many men have where after you finish the sexual act, you feel, like, very clear-headed, right? And so then what happens is now it's... And wh- why is that? That's because the lustful parts of your brain were inhibiting, like, literally inhibiting and, and, and shutting off the thinking parts of your brain, and once the lustful part shuts off, then we start thinking again.

    7. SB

      Probably in my early 20s was the first time I experienced post-nut clarity, and it was, I think it was 2:00, 3:00 AM, AM in the morning. (laughs) Here's me talking about my masturbation. It was like 2:00, 3:00 AM in the morning, and there was this person that I was, like, vaguely interested in. I'm, like, super horny. I'm arranging to meet them at, like, 3:00 AM. I think I'm, like, 21 years old, and I decide to masturbate instead. And immediately after I masturbated instead, it was like a completely different person inhabited my body. I was like, "Why..." Within seconds, I was like, "Why the fuck were you gonna get out of bed at 3:00 AM in the morning and drive for 55 minutes to meet someone you have really no interest in?" And it was like that person could not recognize the person I was 10 minutes earlier.

    8. AK

      Mm-hmm.

    9. SB

      And I, I, I remember tr- one day trying to explain this to, um, a, a woman, and she couldn't understand it, and I actually think she was quite offended by it, because it's quite an offense- offensive concept, I imagine, to a woman to hear that men experience a, a drop in interest, potentially, sometimes, um, after they masturbate.

    10. AK

      Yeah, and I, I think the reason it's offensive to women is because in that moment the dude is objectifying her, right? Like, it's like-

    11. SB

      Yeah.

    12. AK

      ... the, the woman becomes a sexual object. It's, you're not a human anymore. And like, the reason they're offended is because that's exactly what happens. In that moment, there are such powerful drivers in our brain to drive us to procreate that, like, we don't view them as a complex human being with thoughts and feelings, right? We are just really, really horny, and that's literally what happens. Like, in our brain, we stop viewing them as complex objects, and so the reason they get offended is, is sorta 'cause they're right a- and we start to view them that way, and, but that's also, like, biological. There are absolutely, like, societal and psychological things that we can get into in a minute, but, like, that, that make things that worse, but I think it's, like, it's understandable-

    13. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    14. AK

      ... and it's also, like, how we work.

    15. SB

      Yeah, it's, which is difficult to say.

    16. AK

      Yeah.

    17. SB

      But you just, I just wanna be honest about it because I think if we start from a place of, like, total honesty about these things, we can actually reason up to some real solutions.

    18. AK

      Yeah. Yeah.

    19. SB

      If we're trying to be politically correct or whatever, we're never gonna get to real answers here.

    20. AK

      Absolutely, and all, all men, I, I hope, (laughs) will experience post-nut clarity.

    21. SB

      (laughs) Yeah.

    22. AK

      A- and also, like, that doesn't make us bad men.It's a, it's a physiologic thing, and I think the key thing about whether you're good or bad is the way that you manage it.

    23. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    24. AK

      Right? And that's kind of what I'm talking about is, like, you have to understand what is happening in your brain in order to then willfully take a step back and, and sort of, like, think about, "What am I feeling?" And then eventually, once we understand where post-nut clarity comes from, we can cultivate it without having to nut.

    25. SB

      Just, just, this is, I know we're on a s- little bit of a tangent here, but do women experience the inverse of post-nut clarity? Because there's a lot of oxytocin released when we have sex. So I was just r- just reading

  11. 19:26 – 22:46

    Societal Impact of Porn

    1. SB

      a, a study from 2021 in the Journal of Sex Research, and it found that women were more likely to feel emotionally connected, vulnerable, and have a desire for post-coital closeness, like cuddling or talking. However, men who were in long-term relationships reported feeling similarly bonded to women. Which is probably explains actually why I'm also down to cuddle after, because she's been my partner for seven years.

    2. AK

      Yeah, so there is so much there. So the- now we're getting, I mean, if you wanna go into that, that's the societal element, right? So there is the neuroscience of pornography addiction, what it does to your brain. But there is a fundamental societal issue which is driving men towards pornography, and also addresses this kind of thing where relationships between men and women are getting harder! And as relationships between men and women are getting harder, there's a part of the, the, the brain, more often the male brain, that is getting starved for something because we no longer have sexual connections, emotional connections with women. And so when we get hungry for something, then the brain will try to find what it can to satisfy it.

    3. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    4. AK

      Right? So there, there's a part of our brain that, you know, that drives us towards procreation, but oftentimes in a real relationship it comes with a lot of other things.

    5. SB

      Yeah.

    6. AK

      Right?

    7. SB

      Yeah.

    8. AK

      The problem is that when we're, and this gets a bit technical, but when our brain wants something, it usually wants a whole package. So for example, like if you feel hungry, you don't want calories. I wanna eat this, and I wanna eat this, and I wanna drink this, and I wanna have some of this, right? So there are lots of different things that my brain wants or my body wants, and they're usually all, they all come together in, in a real healthy way. In a, in a, sorry, in a natural way, which is why it's healthy. Not that natural is healthy, but that's what we've adapted to. The problem with pornography is that it gives us a slice of what our brain craves. And the problem is once it gives you a slice, once you get that sexual gratification, your emotion, your emotional connection is not met, you have no bond, you have no feeling of safety, nothing like that. Oftentimes you're filled with, like, regret and all kinds of guilt and things like that. And so even though you're satisfying that sort of procreative drive, all of the stuff that comes with it stays unsatisfied. And then the real problem is once we satisfy the procreative drive, the motivation to go and get all of those other things disappears, right? So once I nut, post-nut clarity, I don't need a relationship with anyone else, right?

    9. SB

      (sighs)

    10. AK

      I'm not willing to sacrifice to deal with this person. So, so it's, it's kinda like, it's sort of like if I, if I fill up your stomach with just unhealthy food, like let's say I just give you straight calories, like some highly processed, like, hamburger wrapped in donuts or whatever, and drizzled with take your pick of artery-clogging stuff. After you eat that, you don't have any fiber, you don't have any micronutrients, but you're not gonna crave broccoli.

    11. SB

      Yeah.

    12. AK

      Right? So that's what's happening in our society is we're using porn as a substitute for relationships, and that's creating these really strong societal pressures, and being driven by. So what have you seen happening between men and women right now?

  12. 22:46 – 27:56

    Mating Crisis: What's Happening Between Men and Women?

    1. AK

    2. SB

      (sighs) Um, women, I think, don't need men-

    3. AK

      Okay.

    4. SB

      ... as much as they used to, and I think this is in part because of the whole sexual revolution and the Pill and feminism and all these things, which is, has, you know, tremendous upsides. I think that women and men are having less sex. They're getting married less. Men's attitude towards women has become a little bit more resentful in certain pockets of the internet. They perceive relationships with the other sex to be disposable more than ever before.

    5. AK

      Men's perce- view, women-

    6. SB

      I would say both.

    7. AK

      Okay.

    8. SB

      And I think in part that's because of dating apps, just the perception of choice.

    9. AK

      Okay.

    10. SB

      The feeling that if you don't work out, there's another thousand people on my phone that I could give a, a shot to. I think the equation of a relationship when we think about... the investment it takes for it to work and what you get from it, people now perceive the equation not to be worth it.

    11. AK

      Okay. I think there's a lot of great stuff there. So, so you're like a fully formed adult man, right?

    12. SB

      I think so. I hope so.

    13. AK

      Yeah, yeah. Like you're, you're like, you're like a man.

    14. SB

      Thank you.

    15. AK

      You're not like a kid. You're not like a, like a dude in early stages of development. You've like, you've got a career. You've got a relationship. You're buying a house. Like, you are an adult.

    16. SB

      Yeah.

    17. AK

      So if I was an 18-year-old-

    18. SB

      Yeah.

    19. AK

      ... and I came to you, and let's say I'm your nephew or something like that, and I'm like, "Stephen, fully formed adult, handsome man in relationship, I'm struggling to date."

    20. SB

      Yeah.

    21. AK

      What should I do?

    22. SB

      You want me to give you advice?

    23. AK

      Yeah.

    24. SB

      Fuck. Um, I think you should work on yourself.

    25. AK

      Okay.

    26. SB

      Especially as an 18-year-old man, because I think you need to, especially at that age, create some advantages. And so working on yourself could be learning, reading, going to the gym, building up the ability to provide for someone else and to protect somebody else. I, that's kind of really where I'd start, and again, that's biased because that's what I did at 18 years old.

    27. AK

      Great.

    28. SB

      I actually didn't date. I think I've been on five dates in my entire life.

    29. AK

      Okay. So let's say I do that-

    30. SB

      Yeah.

  13. 27:56 – 35:52

    Are Men Disappearing From Society?

    1. AK

      genes along, right? So, I mean, like, literally, I know it sounds weird, but, like, if you're a woman, you can just go to a sperm bank and you can get pregnant.

    2. SB

      Yeah.

    3. AK

      You can just have a child without... You can also argue that it's easier for women to find a man who is willing to impregnate them than it is for a man to find a woman willing to ha- carry their child. But, I mean, literally, we live in a society where women can just procreate if they feel like it and men cannot. So, there's a fundamental power balance there. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying it, it is what it is. So, I think what we're starting to see is actually like a mass extinction event. We are seeing natural selection for a group of men who have no options. Many years ago, I was a loser, and the s- the world that we lived in necessitated my entry into third spaces. I had trouble talking to girls, but I was forced into college. When I got my first job, it was serving ice cream. I was forced to interact with girls. I was active in a sum- summer camp where I met girls, was forced to talk to girls. So, I sucked at talking to girls, but the world that I lived in was structured so that I still had to talk to girls. I had no option to retreat from interaction and painful interaction with the opposite sex. I think literally what we're seeing, 'cause all this stuff started to get really bad during COVID. So, what happened in COVID was actually like a natural selection event, but it wasn't a natural selection event about life and death. That's what people think natural selection is. What happened during COVID, sure, a lot of people died, and that's bad. But the post-COVID world, some people were able to adapt to it and some people are not. We're seeing a spike in social anxiety. Now I can work from home. Now I have pornography. Now I have all this stuff going on to where I'm not forced to learn how to interact with women. Does that kinda make sense?

    4. SB

      Yes, yeah.

    5. AK

      So, now you can live your whole life at home, and I think what's starting to happen is literally natural selection. And the way that natural selection works is people think it's like, oh, if I'm natural, uh, natural selection means I'm weak and someone is strong. That's not technically correct. Natural selection is you were made a certain way. Someone else is made a different way, and then the environment changes. Which one of these two is suited to... It's not even adaptation 'cause a- all the adaptations have been made. And I think the best example of this is, like, literally Darwin's finches. So, you've got, like, you know, one finch that has, like, a hard beak that can crack a nut. You've got another finch that has a very sharp beak that can get, like, a, a, a bug out of, like, a cactus, like, that has these very, like, tight, tight flowers. And so if something happens and all the cacti die out, the birds that rely on the cacti bugs will start to die out too. They don't know how to procreate in this world anymore. And I think what we're seeing with, like, all these alphas, betas, incels, what we're seeing in South Korea, is there is a whole generation of men that is, like, we are literally watching them die out.... in real time, because we've got 32-year-olds, 35-year-olds who do not have children, do not know how they're gonna ha- ever have children. And this is where, like, I know this sounds bizarre, but... So, that's actually happening. That's not bizarre. That's... Birth rate in South Korea is, like, 0.7, so there's a bunch of men who will never pass on their genes in the alpha male, beta male, whatever. Like, you know, in that kind of language, they talk a lot about, like, procreation and legacy and stuff like that. But I- I almost wonder, is there a mechanism in a human being, that if your genes know they're dying out, what would they trigger in your mind? Right? And I think what they would trigger is exactly what we're seeing, this, like, existential panic, angst, even aggression, entitlement. Because if these men do not behave in this way, they are literally going to die out. So, what we see in this post-COVID world is that people like maybe you or me, who were, like, losers and didn't know how to talk to chicks in high school, we were forced into social interaction where we basically, like... That's where we developed, uh, in, in order, uh, so that we could talk to girls. But in this post-COVID world, all those spaces are gone. There's no forcible interaction. So then, there are some people for whom it's natural to talk to girls, and that's why, like, we see s- this dichotomy, where it's almost like... You know, some people are like, "Just put yourself out there. Just work out, work on yourself, and things will work out." And then there are a lot of other people who are like, "That's not working." And I imagine if you went back, like, 200 years, went back to the Galapagos Islands and you took Darwin's finches and you put them on Twitter, you would see that, the wh- exactly what we're seeing. Some people are like, "Oh, like, you have trouble getting bugs? Just crack a nut. Like, just get better at cracking nuts." But they have something in their makeup, something in their attachment style, something in, in their, their tendency for social anxiety, something in their neuroticism, something in their circumstances, something in their support structure, that allows them to put forth effort and succeed. And then there are these other people over here who will go to therapy, who will work on themselves professionally, who will show up on dating apps. And because of the shape of their face, which cannot be fundamentally altered, or some other thing which they're not even aware of, they grew up with a certain attachment style that they're not aware of. They grew up with, on the spectrum, and their capacity to make eye contact and emotional connections is very difficult. So, there's this whole crop of people who I think are trying really hard. I don't think they're losers. I don't think they're, like, pathetic or anything like that. I think there's something about the architecture of how these people are built so that standard advice does not apply to them. And what I feel when I sit with these people is like someone who is dying out. Like, that's what it feels like to sit with. This- this person's life, they're not living a life. They're in a slow, protracted process of dying. And when you are in a slow, protracted process of dying, pornography shows up. And then you've got this weird thing that goes on where you get this spurt of dopamine, this existential dread of like, "I am not getting to participate in life." There are all these people out there that are participating. They tell me, "Oh, you should do this," but it doesn't work, and it's, just imagine how terrifying it is. If someone gives you advice that's supposed to work and it doesn't work for you, how fucked are you? Right? Because that's the answer. It's like, some people have cancer, we give them cancer treatment, they get better. But if some people have cancer and everyone's like, "Hey, do this chemotherapy," and it doesn't work, then how screwed are you? You're very screwed. So this is, I think, what we're seeing. This deep existential loss, this desire for connection, is somehow, like, intersecting with pornography. 'Cause I think pornography addiction has a spiritual component too, and if you talk to people who are addicted to pornography, they can feel it. They feel, like, spiritually, like, empty. They're like, "I'm not doing anything in- with my life." So, one of the two variables that correlates with pornography addiction, the two strongest variables that correlate with pornography addiction, one of them is a sense of meaninglessness in life. And there's a weird spiritual angle that I talked about, but the other really simple thing is, you know, if you wanna stop watching porn, you need to have a reason to stop watching porn. And the problem with porn is that you can be kinda, like, living your life, and then in the in-between hours, when you're, like, uh, back from work and before you go on a date or maybe you're swiping on Tinder and no one's really answering or whatever, like, you just have these hours in the day where there's nothing going on. You're not living for anything, so you might as well jerk off.

  14. 35:52 – 40:06

    Can Society Take Responsibility for Current Issues?

    1. AK

    2. SB

      I mean, there's- there's a lot that I'm thinking about. The first is, if we go back up to your point about this being a bit of- bit of an extinction event, it poses a question about, like, what do you do about that?

    3. AK

      Mm-hmm.

    4. SB

      Um, you said also p- people are trying to implement the advice, but it's not working.

    5. AK

      Mm-hmm.

    6. SB

      Now, does that mean that that's a question of, like, motivation, discipline? Is it, um, is it bad advice? What do we do there? And, um, the third, I guess, question that c- comes to mind is, does society have a responsibility to intervene in some way to correct this?

    7. AK

      Oh, so I- I think, does society have a responsibility? I don't think that is a real thing. So, I have never seen society take a responsibility. I don't think society can take a responsibility. Right? So if, like- like, how do I get society? Like, who do I talk to?

    8. SB

      But- but if you think about other people that are in s- marginalized groups, society intervenes to make the world-

    9. AK

      Who's society?

    10. SB

      The governments, and the way that we make our laws, and the way that we give out money and grants, and the way that we shape our communities.

    11. AK

      Yeah, so I- I understand the question, but I- I think, like, this- and this is just the way that I think.So, if I ask you what is society, you say the government. And then who is the government, what is the government? It's people.

    12. SB

      Yeah.

    13. AK

      So, I think this comes down to, forget about societal responsibility, and I think this is one of the problems, not to say that it is the problem, but this is just the way that I think. There was a case, I don't remember her name, of a woman who was being sexually assaulted in public, like in, on a street at nighttime, and there were a bunch of neighbors who were like aware that the sexual assault was happening, and no one called for help.

    14. SB

      Hmm.

    15. AK

      And the reason no one called for help is because everyone assumed that somebody else would call for help. You know, whose problem is it? Oh, society should fix this. And the moment that we say society should fix th- fix this, we stop taking individual responsibility. And the moment that we stop taking individual responsibility, like unless someone shows up and runs for office and says, "My goal is to do this," which by the way is happening in like South Korea, so like conservatives that are very like, there's this w- huge tension in South Korea right now between men and women, and this 4B movement where women are like, "We're not gonna have kids anymore." And then there's like this conservative kind of like pro-masculine kind of movement that is moving into government and says like, "This needs to change." And we see governments responding to this mating crisis, um, right, so I think like China is now paying people to have children. So, there's all kinds of like moves that are happening. So, is it society's responsibility? Like, I don't know. So, I think if society doesn't do anything, what's gonna happen will be really simple, and that's what I mean by we're- we're witnessing a mass extinction event. We have a group of young men who are somewhere between 15 to 50 who will just never procreate, and then they will literally die out, right? Their genes will not be passed on. And for the people who do procreate, they will have been adapted to the post-COVID world.

    16. SB

      Yeah.

    17. AK

      Right? So, they know how to form, they- they succeed on Tinder, whereas like if you go and you look at, like if you go to like, um, some kind of senior event and you look at all the people who have grandkids, half the men there would not have succeeded on Tinder.

    18. SB

      Yeah.

    19. AK

      Right? And this is something that really, like shocks people when I kinda tell them this, but if you wanna see like who's succeeding, it's not the- the dudes on Tinder who are getting laid 15 times. Like, go to like a, I mean, this is sometimes a little creepy, but like if you go to a playground, you're gonna see like a lot of like average-looking men with like average-looking dad bods, which, with average median incomes, who are like having kids, and that's what's really happening. But even those men are adapted in some way, right, because they're not exceptionally attractive, they're not exceptionally rich, but they have something going on in their psychological makeup which allows them to form bonds and procreate.

    20. SB

      You just said that a huge amount of men between the age of 15 and 50 will not pass on their genes. They will effectively die out of the gene mating pool. So, people will hear that, and many people will go, "Well, that's evolution."

    21. AK

      Yeah.

    22. SB

      And, but I wanna u- understand if there- there's a counterpoint

  15. 40:06 – 44:06

    Do People Have a Right to Reproduce?

    1. SB

      to that. It should- should society intervene, should, y- why is, you know, in the short term we're gonna have a lot of men who are disillusioned that become incels, find themselves in pockets of the internet, are resentful, all those kinds of things, but should society intervene to course correct that? Should we put systems in place to make sure-

    2. AK

      So-

    3. SB

      ... that those men meet partners?

    4. AK

      ... I- I'm gonna- I'm gonna answer that question with a question.

    5. SB

      Okay.

    6. AK

      If, let's say, a huge swath of people are dying out from cancer-

    7. SB

      Yeah.

    8. AK

      ... should we intervene with that?

    9. SB

      Yes.

    10. AK

      If a huge swath of people are dying out from like a virus, should we intervene with that?

    11. SB

      100%, yes.

    12. AK

      If a- a huge swath of people are, uh, dying out from genocide, should we in- intervene with that?

    13. SB

      Yes.

    14. AK

      So, I think there are two important things. One is that-

    15. SB

      It's slightly different though, isn't it?

    16. AK

      It- it is.

    17. SB

      It's just, it's whether you-

    18. AK

      So- so one is about death.

    19. SB

      Yeah.

    20. AK

      Right? So, one is like if- if a human being is dying-

    21. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    22. AK

      ... we should step in. But natural selection isn't necessarily about death. This is what's really tricky about it, this is why I- I think it gets hard. Natural selection is about passing on your genes.

    23. SB

      Yeah.

    24. AK

      Right? It's about creating viable offspring. And this is where if someone, y- you know, and I think we also say yes, like if there's, you know, a couple that wants to have a child and that child has cystic fibrosis, should we help that couple, should we help a couple procreate? We also say yes.

    25. SB

      Yeah.

    26. AK

      So, that's why we have IVF and things like that. So, I think the- the tricky thing about, th- the reason that this is different is because that's a couple. If- if a woman is unable to have kids, even if we say if a man is unable to have kids, should we medically intervene so that they- they're capable of having kids? Yes. Right? So, if we're talking about a couple, if we're talking about a human being and there's a medical problem, or if we're talking about protecting people from death, the answer is yes. This is a new question, which is do people have the right, and I don't know if right is, and th- or maybe that's the right word, to reproduce? And this is what's so challenging about it is like the answer is basically no, because for men, that requires the consent of someone else, and my right to reproduce never trumps someone's right to not wanna (laughs) reproduce with me.

    27. SB

      Yeah.

    28. AK

      I think we sort of accept that, right, that that's correct. Now, th- this is where the fundamental biological difference comes in, because a woman doesn't need a man to reproduce. I can go to a sperm bank. And once again, you can argue that you can get laid if you want to, but I, that hasn't been my experience. I think women struggle with loneliness and finding sexual partners and stuff quite a bit as well. Uh, there's some really bad perception on the internet. So, I think this is like a new problem for society, which is why it hasn't been solved. Now, that's why the- the- the- the track that I take, I don't know what the societal answer is. I'm not a sociologist. So, what I have found, uh, thankfully (laughs) , we don't need to solve our, I don't think we need to solve that problem. Does it need to be solved? Sure. Should someone solve it? I think so. But I think what- what- what- what I've found works really well is that usually the problem that these men are failing to a- adapt to I- is, can be fixed, but the problem is that the solutions that work for the people who are successful...... will not work for the people who are unsuccessful. These are apples and oranges, right? So like, and this is the big mistake, is that when, when I say, okay, I am happily married with two kids, but the thing that I did won't work for these people. That's been my clinical experience. My advice does not work for them. Your advice won't work for them. What we need is a different system that addresses their fundamental problems, right? 'Cause I had what it takes internally. I was loved as a child.

    29. SB

      Yeah.

    30. AK

      Like fu- like this is how deep it runs. So, I knew how to give love and receive love. A third of the men that I meet do not know how to give love and do not know how to receive love. Has nothing to do with their Tinder profiles, that's why they're fucked. And when people can say, "Go to the gym, make more money," but if you do not know how to fundamentally give or receive love, then like that's a huge problem.

  16. 44:06 – 46:22

    Helping Patients With Commitment Issues

    1. AK

    2. SB

      Is that where you start when you're trying to solve this on an individual basis?

    3. AK

      Uh, yeah, so I mean, I start, uh, giving and receiving love is not where I start, because that's like so foreign to them that they don't know how to do that. (laughs)

    4. SB

      (laughs) Okay.

    5. AK

      Right, so I think there are a couple of things. Uh, the first place that I start with most men is in understanding their emotions. So, we have all kinds of patterns that we engage in that are driven by different parts of us that we have no insight into, and usually this is like where the money is. So I, I was, I had, I had a great conversation yesterday with a buddy of mine, and you know, he, he gave me this fantastic example which I've seen so many times. So, you know there's a, a lot of women will talk about men who are afraid of commitment.

    6. SB

      Yeah.

    7. AK

      You know? So it's like, oh, like, I'm dating this person, he's great, but he's afraid of commitment, he's afraid of commitment. And then, and then that, then it kind of becomes like, oh, like the dude is like, he like needs to step up and needs to like be a man and needs to like learn how to commit. So we sort of put, put the onus on the man, "You're afraid of commitment, you need to fix that." So really funny thing is if you look at like women that I've worked with, they ha- sort of fall into this pattern where they date men who are afraid of commitment, and that's why they're looking for commitment, because they haven't found it yet, right? And so the really funny thing is sometimes women will select for a man who is afraid of commitment because deep down they're afraid of commitment.

    8. SB

      (laughs) So true.

    9. AK

      So I, I'm gonna find someone who I know is afraid of commitment, and therefore I can blame them for never committing. And this is how I know this, because sometimes the dude will come into my office and he will work on his fear of commitment and he will conquer it, and the moment that he conquers his fear on commitment, the woman will retreat. They'll get terrified. They'll start to find all kinds of problems. And it's not just like men and w- it's not just women are guilty of this. So there are all kinds of patterns that people will engage in that they have no insight into. First of all, understand your emotions, then you will understand your behaviors. Oh, like why do I keep on peop- uh, selecting people who are afraid of commitment? Because I'm afraid of commitment, and if I can find somebody else who's afraid of commitment, I can blame them from it and I never have to deal with my laddering up, my fear of commitment. So there's a lot of stuff that comes with emotions. So awareness of emotions, awareness of your, your patterns, the ability to regulate them, and I'd say that kind

  17. 46:22 – 49:35

    Treating Addiction

    1. AK

      of ties it up.

    2. SB

      So step one is understanding one's emotions and then step two is k- sort of giving them a way to deal with those emotions that isn't the pornography or the addictive behavior or the short-term desire that might be destructive for their long-term, their long-term goals.

    3. AK

      I think so.

    4. SB

      And, and what is that? How do I deal with the emotion? So if I'm, if I'm, if I have a craving to, to engage in some kind of sh- addictive behavior like pornography-

    5. AK

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      ... wh- what should I do instead?

    7. AK

      So, so if we're getting super practical, I can give you kind of like my paradigm for treating pornography addiction.

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. AK

      So the first thing is that, I know this sounds kind of weird, but, uh, the first thing that I recommend people do is schedule their pornography usage. So pick one hour of the day where they watch pornography. So if we look at like one of the problems with pornography, it's that it invades all the cracks in your life, and then over time what it does is it widens those cracks. So the first thing that you've got to do is like move it to like one part of the day. I know a lot of people are fans of like cold turkey and like, like, you know, uh, sobriety and things like that. I think for the digital addictions, that's harder. So log out of all of your devices, restrict it to one hour of the day. Next thing that you need to do is anticipate what are gonna be the hard parts of your day. So, what are the parts where you're gonna feel really bad about something and what's your plan? What's your alternative in those moments? So the other really tricky thing about the brain is that when we are suffering, we cannot create new solutions. So w- usually when we get attacked by something, our survival instincts kick in, our reflexes kick in. Reflexes and innovation are at two opposite ends of the spectrum.

    10. SB

      Mm.

    11. AK

      So you have to innovate before you need to use it, right? We need to have a fire hydrant in our house before the fire starts. We can't go finding a fire hydrant. That's a big mistake that a lot of people make. So your emotional regulation techniques need to be practice whether that's meditation, um, I really like something called urge surfing. So urge surfing is something that's, uh, confuses a lot of people. So if you have a desire, Steven, like do you want anything right now?

    12. SB

      That house I put an offer in for.

    13. AK

      Okay, great.

    14. SB

      Or I'm g- I'm getting a little bit hungry, so maybe some-

    15. AK

      In either case, if you don't get those things, the desire will disappear over time, right? So if you don't get the house, 40 years from now there may be a seed of desire left, but you're not gonna like want that house 40, like you know, that's what's really confusing for people is people don't realize that if you do not give into your desire, it'll disappear on its own. And people sort of know this if you've been hungry and you'll notice that you feel hungry but if you don't feed yourself, the hunger goes away.

    16. SB

      Yeah.

    17. AK

      It'll come back because your sig- it'll b- get recreated stronger by certain signals in your body, but the desire disappears if you don't give into it. So urge surfing is recognizing that you don't need to conquer your addiction, you need to wait it out.So, if you have a desire for pornography, the desire will start, it'll increase, it'll peak, and then it'll disappear on its own, any addictive substance. You just need to play the waiting game. So, it can help to have an emotional regulation technique. So, the,

  18. 49:35 – 52:00

    Alternate Nostril Breathing Practice

    1. AK

      the technique that I recommend for most of my patients is alternate nostril breathing. So, there's something about our nose that when we s- change the way that we breathe, it alters our sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system and causes us to calm down. Anytime we have an urge for something, we feel unsatisfied. When we feel unsatisfied, it creates stress. Stress causes a spike in cortisol. Cortisol will then activate our nervous system. So, when you want something, it's like, "I w- I want it." So, you need to just calm yourself down. So, alternate nostril breathing is a great way to do that. We start that by taking your hand and do this, okay?

    2. SB

      Hmm.

    3. AK

      And then thumb is out. Great. Then what we're gonna do is take your thumb, block the right nostril. Breathe in.

    4. SB

      (inhales deeply)

    5. AK

      Now with a full breath of air, switch. There you go. Breathe out.

    6. SB

      (exhales deeply)

    7. AK

      Breathe in through the same nostril.

    8. SB

      (inhales deeply)

    9. AK

      Switch. Breathe out.

    10. SB

      (exhales deeply)

    11. AK

      In.

    12. SB

      (inhales deeply)

    13. AK

      Switch. Out.

    14. SB

      (exhales deeply)

    15. AK

      In.

    16. SB

      (inhales deeply)

    17. AK

      Switch. Out.

    18. SB

      (exhales deeply)

    19. AK

      We'll do one more. So breathe in through the same nostril.

    20. SB

      (inhales deeply)

    21. AK

      Switch, and out.

    22. SB

      (exhales deeply)

    23. AK

      So if you do that practice, you'll notice a couple things. One is that one of your nostrils is more closed than the other. That's completely normal. It'll alternate about every 90 minutes if you're healthy, okay? So this practice, if we sort of think about it, what were we talking about again?

    24. SB

      Hmm, can't remember (laughs) .

    25. AK

      Exactly.

    26. SB

      (laughs)

    27. AK

      Right? So this practice is interesting because it forces our attention. If I just tell you to take deep breaths, that doesn't work well, because the mind can continue to be engaged, right? The mind can think about whatever it wants to. We can talk about marriage, we can talk about your house, we can talk about what you wanna eat. And if I'm just sitting there meditating, observing my breath, it doesn't anchor the mind. So alternate nostril breathing is really good for a couple reasons. The first is that it requires you to pay attention. And if you're concentrating, 'cause we're doing all this

  19. 52:00 – 52:52

    Why People Are Addicted to Porn and How to Overcome It

    1. AK

      weird stuff, right? You're kinda screwing up, that's the point.

    2. SB

      Oh.

    3. AK

      Because then you're not thinking about something else. So then something really cool happens. I feel like watching pornography, I do this for a while, "Which, which bre- which one? Which one again?" And then you do it for a little while, calms down the physiology, you'll feel a little bit calmer, and now the urge has disappeared. It'll come back. It'll come back stronger. But your brain has learned an alternative. The whole reason we get trapped in a cycle of addiction is because we have one solution to one problem. The moment that we create a second solution, a lot of things change. Now, we have to train that a little bit ahead of time. It's hard to do that for the first time when you have a craving. So you need to practice it for, like, maybe 5 to 15 minutes every single day. As you get good at it, if you have a craving pornog- for pornography, you can use that practice.

    4. SB

      And can you use that practice for other types of cravings?

  20. 52:52 – 56:13

    How Willpower Works in the Brain

    1. SB

    2. AK

      100%, you can use it for anything.

    3. SB

      Is there a longer-term piece of work I would need to do to get over that craving though? Because, you know-

    4. AK

      Yes and no. So, so start by logging out of all your devices that you watch pornography on. Use only one device and schedule one amount of time for the day. Practice urge surfing. Uh, urge surfing is just the awareness that urges will disappear. I would encourage you to, like, pay attention to other things. So if you sit down to eat a meal and you want a soda, you've got your food in front of you, it's really weird, just don't eat and don't do anything for a little bit and just watch the desire for the soda. You'll see it peak, and then as you observe it, you will see it disappear. So this is what's really weird. Okay, I'm gonna say this, I don't know if this is gonna make sense. When you relapse, you know you're gonna relapse and then you stop thinking about it. Like, you have this internal struggle, like, "Should I do it? Should I not do it? Should I do it? Should I not do it?" Then something happens and you're like, "Oh, like, I'm gonna do it." And then you, like, let the fight happen for a little while and then it kinda disappears from your mind. You know what I mean?

    5. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    6. AK

      So what a lot of people don't realize is that internal conflict is willpower. They think willpower means winning the internal conflict. That's technically not the case. If we look at the part of our brain that exerts willpower, it is the same part of our brain that monitors internal conflict. If you are internally conflicted, that is your willpower acting. That's you fighting. That's the willpower itself. So as long as you are monitoring your internal conflict, the only way an addiction can win is when you leave the ring. Literally.

    7. SB

      Are you saying keep the conflict going?

    8. AK

      Keep the conflict going and you will win 100% of the time. And if people have struggled with addiction, they're gonna know in the back of your mind, you make a decision and then you pretend to fight for a little while. You've already decided, and then you feel really good. You're like, "Oh yeah, we're gonna just do it," 'cause some justification happens, and then you stop the fight. And then you don't even do it right away. You don't do it, like, right away. You're like, "Wait," and then it just happens on its own. But if you really pay attention to your internal process, you'll see that going on. Okay? So urge surfing, alternate nostril breathing practiced ideally ahead of time so that when you are doing it, you know, it's like, if I wanna learn, if I wanna defend myself with a sword, I don't wanna pick it up for the first time when barbarians are attacking me, right? I need to practice. Same is true of cognitive skills.So, we wanna do those cognitive skills and then when we have those urges, we wanna deal with them. The other thing that we need to do is anticipate the hard emotional parts of our day. So, am I gonna have this conversation? Is this gonna be hard? And then prepare yourself for that emotion. Then when the allotted hour comes in, you can use pornography. So, the first thing that we wanna do is we wanna like not have it invade every part of your life. Just- just localize it to a particular thing. And this may not work for substances, but I think it works for digital addictions way better. And then over time, you can reduce it. You can start skipping a day. And is there internal deeper work? Absolutely. So, finding a sense of purpose. So, uh, people have conquered pornography addiction when they have no time for it anymore. So, there's like deeper work about finding your purpose in life. That will help you a lot.

  21. 56:13 – 57:05

    When Your Partner Has a Problem With You Watching Porn

    1. AK

      Overcoming an addiction requires a why. So, everyone's like, "Oh, like I gotta do it." Why? "It's because it's bad for me." That's not- that's not gonna motivate you. You need like a real reason to do it. This is also why a lot of men will relapse with pornography when their partner has a problem with it, because keeping my partner from getting mad at me is not a sufficient reason to conquer the addiction. Usually what'll happen is the addiction will then use deception. So if- if- if- if I'm trying to give up pornography to keep my partner happy, my addict's brain will be like, "If she doesn't know, I can check that box and I can use." Does that kind of make sense?

    2. SB

      Yeah.

    3. AK

      So, you need an internal reason why you need to give it up, and that enters the realm of maybe psychotherapy, maybe a lot of introspection, hiking, meditation,

  22. 57:05 – 58:03

    Why Addiction Is on the Rise in Society

    1. AK

      and then there's a spiritual component too. The reason we're seeing an increase in addictions is because we as a society need to grow spiritually. And anyone ... You'll notice this. People who are like spiritually powerful, not necessarily monks, but like a lot of like the regular people have overcome an addiction. And any time I have a patient with an addiction, once they're on the other side, they are like absolute beasts on the spiritual level. They can handle all kinds of adversity because they have mastered themselves. So, I think there's some weird thing going on in the universe right now where like everyone is meditating. We all need growth. Our systems are falling apart and like we need this new skillset, and I think addiction is on the path to meditation and spiritual growth. It's what really gets people started. So even then, it's not karmically like bad.

    2. SB

      I've

  23. 58:03 – 59:03

    Ads

    1. SB

      built companies from scratch and backed many more, and there's a blind spot that I keep seeing in early stage founders. They spend very little time thinking about HR, and it's not because they're reckless or they don't care. It's because they're obsessed with building their companies, and I can't fault them for that. At that stage, you're thinking about the product, how to attract new customers, how to grow your team, really how to survive, and HR slips down the list because it doesn't feel urgent. But sooner or later, it is, and when things get messy, tools like our sponsor today, Justworks, go from being a nice to have to being a necessity. Something goes sideways, and you find yourself having conversations you did not see coming. This is when you learn that HR really is the infrastructure of your company, and without it, things wobble, and Justworks stops you learning this the hard way. It takes care of the stuff that would otherwise drain your energy and your time, automating payroll, health insurance benefits, and it gives your team human support at any hour. It grows with your small business from startup through to growth, even when you start hiring team members abroad. So, if you want HR support that's there

  24. 59:03 – 1:00:07

    Why People With Past Addictions Seem Spiritual

    1. SB

      through the exciting times and the challenging times, head to justworks.com now. That's justworks.com. I've interviewed a lot of people who are deeply spiritual and pretty much all of their stories seem to start with an addiction.

    2. AK

      Yeah.

    3. SB

      I'm really trying to understand what- what the- the domino effect, I guess, is there?

    4. AK

      Yeah. So, I think what's g- Uh, so there are different ways to think about it. One is that if you randomly have an addiction and you conquer it, that requires an internal work, like an internal like strengthening of your anterior cingulate cortex, which is what monitors your internal conflict, gives you willpower. You have to master yourself in some way, so I think that-

    5. SB

      But doesn't it start before the addiction, because-

    6. AK

      Yes, I think so. So, I think an addiction is like a karmic ... It's like signing yourself up for a boot camp when you're getting born. So, you like come into this Earth prone to addiction, and then if you conquer that addiction, you will be a different person. And so I see a huge karmic kind of thing where like we are given these addictions to spiritually grow, right? So, when I lift a weight,

  25. 1:00:07 – 1:01:38

    Addiction Example

    1. AK

      it's not easy, but it makes me stronger. So, I think we sometimes forget that the mind doesn't wear out.

    2. SB

      Can you challenge what I'm about to say then?

    3. AK

      Okay.

    4. SB

      So, the way that I would think about it is that you were ... Something might happen in your life.

    5. AK

      Okay.

    6. SB

      Now, you- you might think this would happen in a- in a past life or in some other form. Some kind of early trauma, I guess.

    7. AK

      Okay.

    8. SB

      Your dad screams in your face that you're a piece of shit when you're three years old.

    9. AK

      Hmm. Hmm.

    10. SB

      And because of that, I don't know, you develop some sort of addictive behaviors to deal with the stress and the dopamine, the cortisol that's running through your body.

    11. AK

      Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

    12. SB

      So, that becomes domino number two.

    13. AK

      Right.

    14. SB

      And then you struggle and battle the addiction. It ruins your life.

    15. AK

      Leave me one domino, okay?

    16. SB

      Okay.

    17. AK

      Yeah.

    18. SB

      It ruins your life. Um, your partner says she's gonna leave you because of this addiction that you have. So, you decide that the pain of making a change is greater than the pain of staying the same, so you- you go to rehab and you go on the journey. You overcome it, and maybe there is still a hole or a gap.

    19. AK

      There is. You will not overcome it. The scenario you described, that person will relapse.

    20. SB

      Okay. So-

    21. AK

      Okay. So- so, the scenario that you said, okay? Was you realize that the pain of not giving up the addiction hurts more.... than the pain of giving it up. That's not gonna work. So the moment that if you say, "Okay, the

  26. 1:01:38 – 1:02:49

    Intersection of Addiction and Spirituality

    1. AK

      consequences of the addiction are so high that I have to give it up," the reason that doesn't work is because you're being forced.

    2. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AK

      Right? So if the goal of this is to give into myself and reduce my total amount of pain, if it's a calculation to reduce my pain, I'm still giving into the part of myself that wants to lessen pain. You with me?

    4. SB

      Yeah.

    5. AK

      If I'm giving into the part of myself that wants to lessen pain, the addiction will continue. Not 100%, but that's, like, honestly my clinical experience. The way to beat it is saying, "Fuck it, there's gonna be pain. I'm gonna embrace that pain. I don't need to run away from pain anymore. I don't need to choose the lesser evil. I'm gonna choose the greater evil because it's the right thing to do."

    6. SB

      Surrender.

    7. AK

      Surrender and challenge, right? So that's what's kinda confusing for people. Surrender- surrender in this case means allowing yourself to walk the hard path, not being trapped by, "I have to lessen the pain in my life." The domino that I would add at the beginning would be, why were you born in that family? Right?

  27. 1:02:49 – 1:04:57

    Laws of Existence: Why Were You Born in Your Family?

    1. AK

      So that presumes a layer of reality that we do not, generally speaking, scientifically accept. So-

    2. SB

      Why, why do you believe in that l- layer of reality? And what is that layer of reality?

    3. AK

      Two reasons. One is because I think that, I think th- there's order in the universe. I think we have abundant evidence that there are laws that govern existence, okay? And the laws that we have so far are, generally speaking, in my opinion, insufficient to answer the question why someone is born in a particular place. We have a piece of that. We have a piece of why you're born the way you are because of things like genetics, right? So we know that, like, your tendency for baldness is, like, determined before you're even born, right? That's what the theory of karma kinda says. It's like, there's a lotta stuff about your life that is determined before you even show up. So that's one reason. So I, I think we need a system that is sufficiently explanatory. And for me, there are o- other arguments, like biological reductionism, and like you can say there's no broader purpose to anything or whatever, I think that's fair to say, but I, I do think that there's order to things, and I think if we have a reason why... If I have three dominoes, right? And, and I knock 'em over, this is the cause, but this, the finger is the cause. And then what is the f- cause of the finger moving? It's the shoulder, it's the head, it's that I am here in this room trying to explain a principle. So the causes keep on going back and back and back and back and back.

    4. SB

      Until you reach a...

    5. AK

      Until you reach a singularity, right, which is what Big Bang Theory says, is that cause and effect basically kinda got created, I don't know, may- maybe physicists understand this better than I do, but w- what's really fascinating is if you look at some of these old Eastern texts, they say that the universe is born out of a point called Bindu Visarga, which is literally described as a point of infinite

  28. 1:04:57 – 1:06:47

    Do You Believe in God?

    1. AK

      energy, matter, and consciousness, which then explodes into the universe.

    2. SB

      Do you believe in a god?

    3. AK

      Uh, sure. So I, I think that what we call a god... So if you look at, like, a person, a person has, like, layers, right? So if I ask, like, "Who is Stephen?" Stephen has a body, th- so there's a certain level of Stephen that is a physical form. There's a certain level of Stephen that is a bank account. There's a certain level of Stephen that is a brand. Which one of those is really Stephen? They're all really Stephen. So I think there is something at the resolution that people would call a god that does exist.

    4. SB

      So you think there's a higher power that is-

    5. AK

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      ... somewhat intentional?

    7. AK

      Yes.

    8. SB

      Obviously, the question becomes what created that?

    9. AK

      Um, so th- this is what's really interesting. In the West, we think of time as linear. So if you ask a yogi, he'll say time is circular. So what's the first season?

    10. SB

      Spring?

    11. AK

      I, well, I'm s- I'm confused, but doesn't winter come before spring? So is winter the first season?

    12. SB

      I see, I see what you mean.

    13. AK

      Right? So we have this conception that time moves linearly, but there are a lot of conceptions of time that are quite circular.

    14. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    15. AK

      What comes first, the chicken or the egg? So I, I think that there's a circularity to time which there's a very, like, simple argument against, which is that we cannot move backward in time, right? Like, so time seem, like, the a- sand in the hourglass only goes one way.

    16. SB

      Yeah.

    17. AK

      I, I, so th- this is where, I'm not an expert in physics, so I wouldn't make an argument of this based on physics.

    18. SB

      But I just wanna know what your intuition tells you.

    19. AK

      It's not, and it's so experience, right? So I, I think when you experience certain states of meditation, you have experiences of things outside of the normative reality. Now, you can also

  29. 1:06:47 – 1:10:54

    Meditation, Ego Death, and Otherworldly Experiences

    1. AK

      make a biological reductionist argument that those are just illusions, hallucinations created by neurons. I don't think that that's true.

    2. SB

      What specifically are you referring to that you've experienced?

    3. AK

      I don't talk about. Uh, you can ask me a more specific question, and then maybe I can say something about it. I don't-

    4. SB

      What is the right question to ask you?

    5. AK

      So I'll try to explain. So this is gonna get weird, okay? So I realized recently that I used to value credibility over truth. You understand? Credibility and truth are two fundamentally different things. So credibility is saying something that is believable, right?

    6. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. AK

      So believability...... depends on you, not on me.

    8. SB

      Yeah.

    9. AK

      So, what I realized recently is that credibility is about changing your language to the, to fit the ignorance of the audience, like literally. So, I was thinking about this recently in, in my own mid-life crisis, and I was like, "What am I here to do? Am I here to be famous and successful?" If so, then I should be credible. But if I wanna speak the truth, then I need to allow my brand, or whatever the fuck it is, to like fall apart and be like not credible, for people to think that I'm an idiot, and I think that is more important, right? Because that's ego, like people can think I'm dumb. I would rather speak the truth than be credible, in this moment and in some limited ways. That's number one. So, I acknowledge that what I'm about to say doesn't make sense, and I think if you wanna understand this, you have to experience it, and we'll ex- explain why in a second. So, if you look at your existence in the world, you have a body, you have a mind, but then you have this other thing which I think science sort of like acknowledge, uh, we sort of acknowledge, we don't really know what it is, but the capacity for experience. We have this subjective part of you, right? So, I can see objectively what you are, but you have an element of subjectivity. Does that make sense?

    10. SB

      Yeah.

    11. AK

      Do you think?

    12. SB

      Yeah.

    13. AK

      How do I know?

    14. SB

      You don't.

    15. AK

      Do I think?

    16. SB

      I don't know. I assume so.

    17. AK

      Exactly, right? It's kinda weird. So, even when we're like scientists and we say anxiety comes from the amygdala, it's kinda, we're doing something really, really sneaky. We don't know that anxiety comes from the amygdala. We can measure blood flow in the amygdala, we can measure electrical activity using an EEG. How do we know that, uh, anxiety is, comes from the amygdala? Because we ask a human being, "Hey, when there's blood flow going over here in this fMRI, what are you feeling?" "I'm feeling anxious." So, there is a level of human existence that is subjective. You with me?

    18. SB

      Yeah.

    19. AK

      So, what science has done is we developed telescopes and microscopes to take our physical eyes and extend them, so my physical eyes w- with the baseline sensory organs, I can perceive certain things and I cannot perceive other things. But if I develop an instrument, I can see a star. If I develop an instrument, I can see a bacteria. So, I'm taking my natural physical ability and I am enhancing it with technology. With me?

    20. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    21. AK

      Meditation is doing that for your subjectivity. So, if I take like the material realm, which is observable, objective, and I use a telescope and I use a microscope, I can go further than where I started. Does that make sense?

    22. SB

      Yeah.

    23. AK

      So, now the question is for the subjective realm, can you go further in the opposite direction? And when you do that through meditation, you will discover things that are not available to the basic subjective experience. So, like with the naked eye, you can't see a bacteria, but if you use this instrument, you can see it. There's, there's basically a, a, a spiritual equivalent, a subjective equivalent of a microscope and a telescope that allow you to perceive things using your baseline subjective experience that are not perceivable by normal means. That doesn't mean that they're supernatural. We call them supernatural, but I think this is all reducible to science. We just haven't figured it out yet. I think that I have seen enough stuff through personal

  30. 1:10:54 – 1:15:50

    Why Don’t You Share Your Own Spiritual Experiences?

    1. AK

      experiences, through the clinical value of working on these things where I think like some of this stuff is real.

    2. SB

      When, earlier when I asked you about your experience, you said, "I don't talk about it."

    3. AK

      Yes.

    4. SB

      Which is extremely rare for you to say-

    5. AK

      Yes.

    6. SB

      ... because you talk about everything, it seems like.

    7. AK

      Yes.

    8. SB

      Pretty much most things.

    9. AK

      Yes.

    10. SB

      I mean, there's not a question I've ever asked you-

    11. AK

      Yes.

    12. SB

      ... where you said, "I don't talk about it."

    13. AK

      Yes.

    14. SB

      So, I'm curious as to why you don't talk about it.

    15. AK

      Two or three reasons. One is that it depletes Shakti immensely. Uh, it depletes energy. So, as you, uh, as you accumulate spiritual energy, there are certain practices that you can do, including helping people, that will deplete your energy. Second thing is anytime I talk about it, I think it, it, it induces a subtle form of ego, right? So, it's like, "Oh, I've been to the other side." Even like talking about not talking about it. So, that's why like I won't show up on a podcast and be like, "Oh, like I've had all these experiences that I'm not gonna tell you about."

    16. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    17. AK

      "It's real, but ah, by the way." So, so I think there's a subtle form of ego that I really wrestle with, and I've just learned, so there are one or two times in my life where I've shared these experiences and it wipes away like my meditative progress for like five years. So, it'll, it'll take me years of practice to get back to having those experiences. And I, I, I think, I've also been told by my teachers and now I'm understanding, I didn't understand back when they told me, but I, I think they're, it's not ... And there's other reasons, too. So, it creates expectations. It creates an imagination. The moment that there's an expectation in the mind, the mind will reproduce that experience.

    18. SB

      Obviously, the viewer is thinking, "Listen, Dr. K, I trust you and, uh, you're s- you're suggesting you've been to the other side and seen something, and I haven't been there, but that knowledge that you have might help me make more informed choices of my life." So, tell, tell me what you, so you experienced-

    19. AK

      Uh, y- y- yes and no. So, so let's understand, okay? So, any help that I can give, I'm gonna give. So, like my understanding of this mass extinction event that is happening right now is like a spiritual sense, and I think some people may resonate with that and some people may not. So, that's the first thing. Second thing is i- if I can help you, I will. I don't think this is gonna help you. I think all it's gonna do is gonna, it's gonna create ego. It's gonna create an aura around me. I don't want that. It's gonna create people hunting for this, which will inhibit it. The more I say, the harder it will be for it to help you. So, the best thing to do is if you're interested in this stuff, I mean, like literally, like what are we talking about here? Let's just stop and think about this. This is crazy. This guy is saying there's stuff after death. There's like these beings out there, right? Like, this is wild. This is dumb.This is unbelievable. Exactly. So if you really want to know, and this is what I love about this work, this is the reason I- I say it, one of the great tragedies of the world today is that it's- it's explored. We know what's behind every nook and cranny. We've mapped the Earth. There's no exploration. Maybe deep sea is what's left, space is what's left. It's so exciting to explore. But most human beings on the planet do not have the opportunity to explore the frontiers of the universe, right? The known universe. The cool thing is that, I don't know if this is gonna make sense, in the realm of subjectivity, no one can explore for you. You have to do the exploration yourself. And if you are hungry to be in Magellan's shoes, if you're hungry to be an astronaut and explore something that no one has ever seen before, then you should meditate. And I'm a crazy person. Like sure, am I a har- am I Harvard Medical School-trained psychiatrist? Yes. But like, I could be a crazy person. I had some experiences, I maybe joined a cult, and like, that, like, you can't trust me. Exactly. So don't trust me. You go see for yourself, right? Go and meditate. Take- take a moment to sit, not a moment, take a year, take a decade to sit and look at that subjective experience of self and see how far you can take it. Try to get rid of all of the anchors of the material realm. If you got an itch, you need to not focus on that. Just focus your attention fully inward. It's not a process of evolution, it's a process of involution. Put all of your attention, all of your sensory input, so if I close my eyes, what I hear is louder, right? If I smell and close my eyes, I smell something more intensely. Remove all of your sensory perceptions and all you're left with is attention and put it inward. If you do that, you'll discover things if you practice consistently enough. And this is why it's so hard, but this is why it's so unbelievable for people, I mean, the or- the timescale that we're talking about is years if not decades. So if you do like solid esoteric spiritual

  31. 1:15:50 – 1:18:41

    Should People With Depression Use Psychedelics?

    1. AK

      practice for years and decades, hopefully it'll happen to you. Maybe it won't. I haven't figured that out.

    2. SB

      What- what about if I do some magic mushrooms or some ketamine instead?

    3. AK

      Uh, so then you'll get some experiences, right? But you won't control what those experiences are, what are those experiences? Are they real? Are they not real? Like, we're not sure.

    4. SB

      W- uh, do you think m- more people should tr- try, especially people that are suffering from treatment-resistant depression or other things, who are struggling in their lives, should try s- things like psilocybin, which is the active compound in magic mushrooms?

    5. AK

      N- uh, generally speaking, no, and there's a really important reason for that. So all these things... So the number of people who have been... that I've seen in my office who have been messed up by psychedelics far outweighs the number of people who have been helped.

    6. SB

      Really?

    7. AK

      Yes. So LSD, you know, like, we know this, right? There's bad trips with LSD. It lives in your spine. You have, like, LSD flashbacks. Uh, I've seen PTSD from trips. I've seen, uh, new anxiety disorders, panic disorders from psychedelic, uh, substances induced. So these are people that will come to me, like, "I'm 32 years old. I was fine for my whole life. Six months ago, I used psychedelics and now, like, I'm having panic attacks." Here's the key thing to understand. Psychedelics, what we know scientifically, forget about all the whether the beings exist or not, whatever, Dr. K is crazy, what we know is that they induce neuroplasticity. Now here's the problem. Neuroplasticity means my brain is in edit mode, okay? Which means that if you edit it in the wrong way, you'll mess up your brain. So what we know is that, this is what's really interesting, if we look at the therapeutic effects of psychedelics, set and setting matter a lot. You need to have, like, people with you who can like shepherd you through the journey because if you just do it on your own, you'll potentially get worse. All of those negative whatever emotions or whatever with the psychedelic's experience in neuroplasticity, you- you'll sometimes get, uh- uh- uh, you know, people will call it, I forget, it's called, um, the heroic dose, right? So, uh, there was some guy who kinda coined that term, so a super high dose which will activate your nervous system in a potentially traumatic way. So if you look at the history of psychedelics, the way that they've been used, you're- you're helped by like a shaman.

Episode duration: 1:57:19

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