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The Diary of a CEOThe Diary of a CEO

How the conversational breath keeps you calm in arguments

Through a fight-or-flight breath and deliberately slower speech; cut weak words like just and chronic apologies that quietly drain authority.

Jefferson FisherguestSteven Bartletthost
Mar 17, 20252h 17mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:07

    Intro

    1. JF

      When somebody is belittling you or being rude or being disrespectful, what we typically want to do is throw it right back, because now they got a win. Instead of that, here's what I would want you to do. One, you're gonna have five to seven seconds of silence. (clock ticking) Two, you're gonna ask them to say it again, because a lot of time in arguments people take it back. And three, this is where it gets fun. I want you to say... That's where your real power is, because it shows that you're the one in control and they're the ones that are not. I'm Jefferson Fisher, I'm a board certified trial attorney, and I help people resolve conflict, resolve problems. And I can change two words and change your life just by what you decide to say next. Because what you say truly has the power to change everything. For example, I teach that you never want to win an argument. When you look to win an argument, you will often lose the relationship. That's your prize. Congrats. So instead of seeing arguments as something to win, see them as something to unravel. And if you can just ask them the question, "What am I missing?" I promise you, that is the most effective tool that you can use for a difficult conversation.

    2. SB

      But what about when you're dealing with someone that you don't like?

    3. JF

      The secret to dealing with someone you don't like is to-

    4. SB

      And then could you explain to me this image here?

    5. JF

      So this is all about how to say no.

    6. SB

      And how does one learn that?

    7. JF

      Start with (beep) then end with (beep) .

    8. SB

      Really?

    9. JF

      That right there is very, very effective.

    10. SB

      I've got so many questions. This has always blown my mind a little bit, 53% of you that listen to this show regularly haven't yet subscribed to the show. So could I ask you for a favor before we start? If you like this show and you like what we do here and you wanna support us, the free, simple way that you can do just that is by hitting the subscribe button. And my commitment to you is if you do that, then I'll do everything in my power, me and my team, to make sure that this show is better for you every single week. We'll listen to your feedback, we'll find the guests that you want me to speak to, and we'll continue to do what we do. Thank you so much. Jefferson Fisher. I'm incredibly

  2. 2:07 – 2:31

    Who Is Jefferson Fisher and What Is His Mission?

    1. SB

      intrigued by so many of the things that you produce content about, but also this phenomenal book. So if we, if we start from the beginning, who, who are you and what is the mission that you're on?

    2. JF

      I'm Jefferson Fisher. I'm a board certified trial attorney, and I teach people how to argue less and say more. Um, and I'm on a mission to help change everything about someone simply by what they decide to say next.

  3. 2:31 – 3:13

    What Is a Trial Attorney?

    1. JF

    2. SB

      What is a trial attorney? Is that a lawyer?

    3. JF

      Yeah, it's a lawyer, attorney, same thing.

    4. SB

      And what do you do as a trial attorney?

    5. JF

      So I help people resolve conflict, resolve problems.

    6. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JF

      So if you have a, a problem with someone, you have a choice. Do you go and just punch them in the mouth or do you sue them? A lot of the times it's something that somebody has hurt you that they cannot give back to you, so the only way they do that in the law is to compensate them with money. And so you, you can sue just about anybody. So that's how we resolve conflict here in, a lot in America. It's same for the UK. And it's litigation. So what we do is we advocate on behalf of other people.

  4. 3:13 – 3:44

    My Job Is Convincing People to Believe Me

    1. JF

    2. SB

      So you're in the courtroom-

    3. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    4. SB

      ... and you're against another trial attorney, essentially, trying to make the case for your party.

    5. JF

      Exactly. Yes, sir.

    6. SB

      But h- isn't that, doesn't that come down to your ability to articulate yourself and to persuade and to convince someone of your fact? Isn't-

    7. JF

      Wholeheartedly.

    8. SB

      Yeah. Right.

    9. JF

      Yeah. What I say, the words that I give, um, are, can mean the difference between somebody getting their peace of mind back or losing everything.

  5. 3:44 – 4:46

    Where Jefferson Learned His Skills

    1. JF

    2. SB

      And how does one learn? Like, how did you learn that? Where did your skill come from in that regard? Because you're regarded as one of the very best at what you do. So where did you learn?

    3. JF

      So I am a fifth generation trial attorney. So I grew up, you know, while other kids were maybe playing when they got home, I got picked up and taken to my dad's deposition because, um, my dad was the only one who could get me at that time. And so I sat in the corner with a yellow notepad doodling while he is finishing the rest of his deposition. Or I'd go to watch his, uh, trial. I saw lots of closing arguments and so I got to see firsthand courtroom stories. I mean, any of these people who've been in trial litigation, they're all wonderful storytellers. So you get to hear that and hear how they ask questions before they say, they give an answer. And so you get to really, I had a, a first row view of how litigation happens and how to persuade and what are the levers in conversation that, that push that forward progress.

  6. 4:46 – 6:38

    Why Communication Matters

    1. JF

    2. SB

      You've written a book on conversation, Argue Less, Talk More. Why does it matter to the average person listening now that's just clicked on this conversation? Why does it matter to them?

    3. JF

      Yeah. Where some people would teach you how to play an instrument, I tell you what chords to play. I give you the sheet music. And so once you know where you are, even in your voice, what matters are the actual words that you say. And I can change two sentences, two words and change your life just by what you decide to say next. Because where you've been in your whole life comes down to your communication and how you handle conflict, where you left one relationship because of most likely some type of communication led you to another, or where you are in your job or where you are in a podcast. I- it's all comes down to what you've communicated and where you are in the conversation at all times.

    4. SB

      Do you really think it's that pivotal-

    5. JF

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      ... to your outcomes in life?

    7. JF

      Oh, absolutely.

    8. SB

      So if I, if I became a 10 out of 10 communicator, like I became the best communicator in the world, what outcomes in my life, what areas of my life do you think will radically improve?

    9. JF

      I think you could almost get to wherever you wanted to go if you were a 10 outta 10 communicator. Y- you can, how you get hired for jobs, let's say in your career, comes down almost exclusively...... to how you communicated right there in that interview. You, you know people who have a wonderful resume, but they have no ability to communicate that. And without the ability to say anything, and say it at least effectively, then they're not gonna get what they want. Or you have people who have been in those relationships where they've continually been stepped on, and they're wonderful people inside. And if they were only with the right person, or if they could express how they wanted and what they needed at that time, their whole world would really change.

  7. 6:38 – 7:56

    The Importance of Being a 10/10 Communicator

    1. JF

    2. SB

      I think a lot about this because of podcasting.

    3. JF

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      And it's one of the, um, slightly unfortunate, unfair elements of running a podcast is sometimes you come across people who have done the most extraordinary work ever. They could be a scientist in a lab in Boston, in America, or they could be, I don't know, some exceptional expert in some niche field.

    5. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    6. SB

      But the reason why they often don't get the platform, the stage on podcasts or on TED Talks, whatever it might be, isn't because of what ... their sort of merit. It's purely because of their ability to communicate the ideas. And I think the more and more we head into this sort of, like, content, YouTube, podcasting world, where that's, like, the dominant form of media, it's so unbel- it's such an unfair advantage-

    7. JF

      Yeah.

    8. SB

      ... if you can communicate. Like, you can be 50% as good in terms of skills or experience, but if you can communicate effectively, the unfair advantage you will have in your life, I think, is just completely disproportionate.

    9. JF

      I couldn't agree more.

    10. SB

      So, yeah.

    11. JF

      You have a huge head start in this space. You can ... If you're somebody who ... You may know more than anybody else in that class. But if you don't have the ability to take up the room, if you don't have the ability to capture somebody's attention and hold it and communicate what you need, nobody will listen. And, uh, it is an unfair advantage. It's a great way to put it.

  8. 7:56 – 8:49

    Negative Feelings From Poor Communication

    1. JF

    2. SB

      What's the downside then? So if I'm a terrible communicator-

    3. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    4. SB

      ... if I'm a 1 out of 10 communicator currently, A, what does that look like? But B, what does, what do the outcomes look like in my life?

    5. JF

      The outcomes are you're gonna start to be negative on yourself. You're going to start to talk to yourself in very negative ways. And, and really it's a hopeless feeling. You're gonna run into relationships where you're running into the same problem. You're gonna go into jobs where you start to run into the same problem, where, uh, it's almost cyclical, where you're not being able to say what you need to say. That makes a huge difference when you say, "Look, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna allow myself to be treated this way anymore." When you don't even know how to voice your own boundaries or enforce those boundaries or things of how you want and where you want to go in your life, what you're gonna find is you're just going to be unhappier-

    6. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JF

      ... more often and more unsatisfied, and that's, uh, a really hopeless feeling.

  9. 8:49 – 9:50

    Why Do People Listen to Jefferson? Why Do They Come to Him?

    1. JF

    2. SB

      How many followers have you got on- online now across all of your channels?

    3. JF

      I think we're close to 12 million.

    4. SB

      That's crazy.

    5. JF

      Yeah, you're telling me.

    6. SB

      Is there, is there an attorney that has that many followers on Earth?

    7. JF

      No.

    8. SB

      What is it you're doing for those 12 million people at the very core of it?

    9. JF

      Yeah. They come to me and they watch my videos not to fix or learn from what happened in the last conversation. They're coming to me because they want to know how to handle the next conversation. And what I do is I give them these snippets, the same way I would in a opening argument or a closing argument. I go with three main points. I try to condense a whole lot of information into something that has very little. So you take what would be 40 pages and you turn it into two sentences, and you turn that into one sentence, and you turn it to seven words. And what I do is I give them this sense of, "Hey, I can do that. I can do that. All I have to do is switch this word out. Oh, I can see the impact of just flipping one little word or reversing the way I'm giving that sentence." And it creates a very different outcome every

  10. 9:50 – 11:21

    First Impressions vs. The Next Conversations

    1. JF

      time.

    2. SB

      So let's get into that then. You said you help them focus on the next conversation.

    3. JF

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      What do you mean by that?

    5. JF

      So often, we think of first impressions versus the next conversation. So you and I meet the first time, or you meet, uh, your date or somebody you, uh, first job interview. And everything's great. Everybody's, has their best face on. Everything's wonderful. But it's typically that next conversation where something's different. You get to learn if the first impression is the lasting impression, if somebody was really who you thought that they were. You put it in terms of an everyday argument, let's say, with a spouse-

    6. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JF

      ... or a friend. You have friction. That friction ignites, and then you start to both yell at each other, and then you throw insults at each other, and everything gets louder and louder and louder. Eventually, somebody crosses the line and says something they don't mean, and it dies. Go, "Forget this. I'm out of here." Gone, they leave. Then there's a next conversation, and that one sounds a lot different than the first one. It sounds a lot quieter, a lot slower. People say, "I ... What I meant to say was ..." Or, "Yeah, I, I shouldn't have said that. What I, my intent was..." Then they start to clarify. Then they start to apologize. Then they reframe. "Oh, I can see how you take it that way. No, no, no. What I meant was..." What they care about in the next conversation is always much different than what they focused on in the first conversation. So the key is, how do you take that next conversation and get it there to be the

  11. 11:21 – 17:08

    The Pause and Breathing Technique (Actionable)

    1. JF

      first one?

    2. SB

      And where do, where do we have to start to understand this? Like, I want to be a much better conversationalist, and I want to be a much more effective communicator. I want to argue less. I want to talk more.

    3. JF

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      I want to be heard more. This is probably reflective of most people listening right now. So if, if, if I was a, a student of yours coming in to be trained by you, where is the first place you would start with me?

    5. JF

      Number one?

    6. SB

      Yeah.

    7. JF

      You say it with control.

    8. SB

      Okay. What do you mean by that?

    9. JF

      Yeah. So, eh, when you're in an argument with somebody, what happens automatically is your fight or flight starts to take over, even in a little argument, even in the very m- especially even in the small ones. If I disagree with your opinion, your fight or flight kicks in, because your body's saying, "Hey, I'm being undermined." Your mind is telling you, "Nah, I didn't like that. What he's saying is different from what I'm saying. You know what? We're gonna think of some other things." It's going to put that down. Immediately, what I want to do is say something that is going to fight. In other words, I'm gonna hurt you.I want to say something that's going to cut you. I want to say something that is hurtful. Or we run from it. You ever had somebody been on the phone and go, "You know, I, I'm over this," and then hang up?

    10. SB

      Yeah.

    11. JF

      Or they go, "Uh, th- I'm out of here. You know what? Forget this," and they go and slam the door. That's their flight. That's their leaving. It's, "I feel threatened in this current moment by this conflict, by this differing view, so I need to get out of it." When you decide to say it with control, you make sure that that doesn't happen, and it all begins with your breath. All right? That's the key. So what, what I teach every one of my clients is let your breath be the first word that you say. So we'll run through it right now.

    12. SB

      Okay.

    13. JF

      If that's cool?

    14. SB

      Yeah.

    15. JF

      All right, so let's do it, uh, an exaggerated one. And what this is called, and it takes advantage of, is a physiological sigh. So what we're gonna do is, um, two seconds in, through the nose.

    16. SB

      (inhales)

    17. JF

      One more at the top (inhales) , and then go, "Ah."

    18. SB

      Ah.

    19. JF

      Yeah, okay. Now how do you feel after you did that?

    20. SB

      Very relaxed.

    21. JF

      Yeah. All right. Cool. So what we're gonna do is get a shortcut to that exact result. This time we're gonna do it same thing, but don't make the, the noise. (inhales) One more time. (inhales) Through the mouth again. Now instead of the mouth, only through the nose. Ready?

    22. SB

      (inhales)

    23. JF

      Now that was a... Now we did that almost a little... That was very intentional. So let's do it again, but give it a haircut, as if, like, you don't even want... I'm, you're not even gonna get me to notice. Ready?

    24. SB

      (inhales)

    25. JF

      That right there.

    26. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    27. JF

      Now that is your go-to. Whenever somebody is telling you something that you disagree with, that is your go-to before you even say your first word, because it is going to make sure that that fight or flight never kicks in. It keeps that analytical side, that logical side in it the whole time, instead of going, "Oh, but wait, they can't yell at me like that. No, no, that's a dumb idea. Can you believe that you said..." Instead of that, that's your fight or flight. You never even gave yourself a chance to breathe. When you breathe and use that what I call a conversational breath, now you, it allows you to go, "Huh, I wonder where this is coming from. I wonder why they said it like that." Now it allows you to kind of stay detached from that current moment because you're injecting your breath into it. When you allow yourself to breathe, then it's gonna keep you much calmer. And so any time I have a client that maybe is getting a question from an attorney that would be triggering to them or upsetting to them, it's always the training of use your breath while they're asking the question and start getting really curious as to why they're asking that. What's the point that they're trying to prove? Don't look at the surface of the question. Look at the intent behind it. Where are they trying to take you? Whenever I can teach them that, it's, it's a very powerful result.

    28. SB

      And to do that, I have to kind of be comfortable with the fact that there will be a pause between my response and their question.

    29. JF

      Yeah.

    30. SB

      Which is quite uncomfortable for a lot of people.

  12. 17:08 – 22:35

    Making Others Trust You

    1. JF

    2. SB

      When you took that pause when I asked you how your day had been, two interesting observations I had. The first is whatever you were about to say next, I trusted more.

    3. JF

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      Because you had had some time to think.

    5. JF

      Exactly.

    6. SB

      And you weren't just spewing out your, like, automatic response. So I thought, "Well, gosh, what's he gonna say here?" And I... There was this element of like, "He's really thinking. He's like, he really cares about-"

    7. JF

      Yes.

    8. SB

      "... giving me the honest, the honest answer." And the second one is I was just so much more intrigued.

    9. JF

      Right.

    10. SB

      Because I could see you thinking, so I thought, "This is gonna be an interesting response."

    11. JF

      Yeah.

    12. SB

      And that was all in that s- one second where you took a breath.

    13. JF

      You can see that a lot in interviews.

    14. SB

      Right.

    15. JF

      The person who you go, "Oh, this person is smart," is when you ask them a, a regular interview question and if they, if they give a breath before they answer, you go, "Oh, they actually are listening to me." The ones that have this rapid fire of... Let's say, for example, and this uses another technique that we'll talk about, is if you were to say, "Would you bring some value? Do you think you'd bring value to this company?" And if I automatically said, "Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, I think I would. I think I'd bring a lot of value to this company," versus (inhales) "I'm confident I'd bring a lot of value to this company."

    16. SB

      Mm.

    17. JF

      Like, you hear all of a sudden, you go, "That's, that's my person."

    18. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    19. JF

      "They actually heard me, considered it, and I'm really curious about what they're gonna say next."

    20. SB

      There was something, is there... Something in the contemplation which means that I believe-... you checked. (laughs)

    21. JF

      Yeah.

    22. SB

      Like it's, it's a simpler way to describe it. In that second example where you paused and said, "Yeah, I bring a lot of value to this company," I was like, "He actually checked."

    23. JF

      Exactly.

    24. SB

      He, like, checked. He believes it, so I believe it.

    25. JF

      Right, and that's why every time I teach a client and I'm preparing them, uh, for their deposition, what they call a depo-

    26. SB

      When you say a client, who do you mean? You mean-

    27. JF

      Yeah, so, uh, people that hire me in my law firm.

    28. SB

      Right.

    29. JF

      Uh, and now that's translated to me doing it on my phone and teaching- (laughs)

    30. SB

      Sure.

  13. 22:35 – 24:13

    How Insecurities Affect Your Communication

    1. SB

      Does one's self-esteem and one's insecurities play a role i- in this?

    2. JF

      Yeah, I, I mean, they play a role with anything. My counter to that is we can overcome it. It's, it's not your self-esteem that's talking, it's the words. The words do it for you. We have people who have a hard time saying what they want. It's the words that they need to say. So when somebody's having a hard time with self-esteem, what I find is all I need to do is get them to start beginning their sentences with certain words, and it's always a different outcome. They just don't know how to begin it. So it's very curious on how, like, somebody who ... Rarely does people with self-esteem issues say, "I need," for example. They typically don't like to say that 'cause it feels too, uh, uh, forward. Somebody who has self-esteem issues will typically begin with, "So, you know, maybe, like, uh," and I was thinking this and you can, uh, you can totally tell me if I'm wrong, but, uh, that's the kind of thing that you typically hear. They're just using the wrong words to begin their sentences. You have to find words that push the progress of the sentence. For example, if someone says "like" all the time, "I mean, I, when you said that, like, it, it just really upset me."

    3. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    4. JF

      That doesn't push the sentence forward. Now, if you trade out the word like for the word because, well, I mean, "That just hurt be- because when you said that, that, that hurt me." I'm pushing the sentence forward rather than letting it drag. And so it's just these little bitty tweaks that one or two words make a big, big difference.

  14. 24:13 – 28:44

    How to Say Anything With Confidence

    1. JF

    2. SB

      So that was the first point, you said control.

    3. JF

      Yeah, control. Say it with control.

    4. SB

      Okay, is there a second point?

    5. JF

      Number two, say it with confidence.

    6. SB

      Confidence. Okay. How do I say something with confidence?

    7. JF

      You have to first understand what it is. And I don't mean that in, like, a, a woo-woo, like, setting. Uh, a lot of people come to me and go, "How do I have the confidence to say..."... this. I'm getting up the courage or confidence to say that. It's the wrong way to look at it. Confidence is not what you have before, confidence is the outcome, and you get to that by saying things that are assertive. What I teach is confidence is as assertive does. So when you learn how to use your assertive voice, the result is feeling confident. Like if I were to tell you right now, "Stephen, I need you to feel sad," you have a hard time feeling sad. If I said, "I need you to be afraid right now," like, "Uh, uh, I mean, what is, what is there to be afraid of?" Like, you just can't conjure that feeling. Now, if I, for whatever reason, just gave you a elbow to the chest, I mean, you'd be, like, upset, right? You don't have to, you don't have to wonder what it's like to feel mad. You're gonna feel it. It's the same with confidence. You can't just conjure up the feeling of, of confidence. You only get it by doing assertive things, and the people that are most confident, I find, are the people that have done the thing already. So they have already said the assertive thing, they've already used their voice, because the more assertive they are, the more confident they're going to feel. That's the way it works. So you do it, you find confidence by using your assertive voice.

    8. SB

      And what is my assertive voice and how is, sort of, an assertive voice different to, like, disrespecting someone? Um, I've got this graph, I think it's from... taken from your book.

    9. JF

      Okay.

    10. SB

      Which shows the sort of middle ground of-

    11. JF

      Yeah.

    12. SB

      I'll put it on the screen for anyone that can't see, but respecting others, sort of, versus respecting yourself, and in the middle there you have your assertive voice.

    13. JF

      Right.

    14. SB

      What is my assertive voice?

    15. JF

      It's a balance. It's a balance between sounding almost passive and sounding aggressive. Assertive says, "I'm willing to be direct with you even in the face of it not going well, but I'm at least gonna give you my truth." Or, "I'm going to say what I need to say without sounding rude." Whenever you are direct with someone, it's also very kind to someone. If I were to tell you and prep the sentence with, "Stephen, I'm gonna tell you this because I know you can handle it," that's different than me going, "Hey, look, this is, you know, probably gonna upset you and, and I don't mean to upset you, but you just let me know." Like, that is a lot... whole lot harder. The assertive voice says, "I'm gonna be very direct, at the same time I'm going to say it with a sense of this is doesn't have to do with me trying to push my way, I'm just letting you know where I stand." Uh, you don't, you don't have to always play nice, that's not what I'm saying. There are times when somebody says something that's, that's terrible to you. Y- y- you don't have to push back, you just can't be pushed over, and so when you learn your assertive voice, that's where you find ways to speak your truth more easily and more readily. So one of the first words, or lessons, of say it, uh, and using your f- assertive voice is that every word matters. The number one culprit of that is the word 'just.' We use the word 'just' a lot. It's probably one of my, my weaknesses that I have is using the word 'just.' In common conversation, no problem, it's nobody cares, but when it comes to having to push a boundary, say something at work, be a little bit more on your toes, 'just' has a way of making you sound hesitant. The most common way we hear that is if somebody goes, maybe or an email or a text, "Hey, just wanted to check in with you. Hey, uh, do you have five seconds? Just wanted to, to touch base with you." It sounds like you're hesitant, as if, like, "I don't really want to bother you." If you remove the word 'just', now you're leaning into it. So instead of, "I just want to check in," "I wanted to check in with you." That's a lot more forward, a lot more forward progress rather than use- using the word 'just', but every little word matters. You've had those texts where somebody gives you, like, a whole paragraph. "I, I don't, I don't know what, how to respond to this." What I teach is that the longer your answer, the more questions you're gonna get, the longer that conversation's gonna go, the longer the argument's going to go. So you have to find ways to say more with less.

  15. 28:44 – 32:50

    Why You Need to Say Fewer Words

    1. SB

      You have to find ways to say more with less. So does the amount that I speak have consequence?

    2. JF

      Yes. There is this, it's this idea of the more words it takes to tell the truth, the more it sounds like a lie. Like, the more you have to say to explain something to me, the more I start to assume you don't know what you're talking about, and we have this way of what they... I guess they call it word vomit, where you just, you talk a whole lot. People get lost in your sentences, and also when you choose to speak makes a very big difference. Like, have you ever been in one of those meetings and there's always this one person that has to throw in their two cents? They always have to throw out their idea or be the devil's advocate, or have something to say at every single issue that gets brought up. Most of the time those are the people that are honestly the least connected to what's actually happening, or at least part of the conversation because they want you to know how smart they are or how many people they know. These are the same people that name drop, like, every other sentence. Uh, the person that is like, you know, "Oh, I was talking to Stephen the other day." "Oh, you know Stephen, right? Oh, yeah, great guy." Uh, you know, and they start to name drop just so you know how many people that they know. Insecurities are, are very loud. Confidence, on the other hand, is very quiet, and so you hear people have the f- the need to say everything so that I sound more believable so you'll know how much I know and how smart I am. Confident people have the urge to say nothing because they have nothing, nothing to prove. Like, if you disagree with me on something that I know to be true, I, I wouldn't be nearly as affected. Let's say, uh, like, we both have on a black shirt. If y- if you were like, "Uh, Jefferson, that's a dumb purple shirt you have on."

    3. NA

      (laughs)

    4. JF

      I'd be like, "O- oh, okay." Like, I don't need to convince you what I already know the color of my shirt is. It's like if you know that about yourself, what you have internally inside-... you don't have the need, the insecurity to prove it to everybody else that they're wrong. The confidence is very quiet. The people that are typically the most looked to are the people that say the least. They listen a whole lot more.

    5. SB

      Do people capitalize on, on that? So if, if you're triggered by me saying that you have a purple shirt on-

    6. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    7. SB

      ... have I got the power now? Because I can, like, play you like a fiddle if that's, you're so easily triggered by something that's so obviously, like, provocation. Surely I, like, I have the power over you now, right?

    8. JF

      No. I mean, I mean, the, the people that are not emotionally intelligent, the people that don't have the emotional awareness, yeah, you can, you can press their buttons and play them like a fiddle.

    9. SB

      Hmm.

    10. JF

      And because what they've done is they've... Uh, that would be like me giving you the remote. Say, "Here, here's m- the remote to my emotions. Go ahead, play 'em. Press that button. Oh, yeah. Oh, you made me angry? How, how dare you?"

    11. SB

      Hmm.

    12. JF

      Instead of handing out remote controls, you get in the habit of giving out manuals. And so if you want to yell at me and press my button and me to say, "You can't yell at me like that," versus me handing you a manual and go, "Hey, I heard you yell at me. If you don't mind, go to page 72. You can look on paragraph three. I don't respond to that volume." Like, you're giving a whole different mind shift of this is what I tolerate and this is what I don't tolerate.

    13. SB

      Do you have a lot of, um, people pleasers coming to you? You know?

    14. JF

      Yeah.

    15. SB

      Yeah?

    16. JF

      Yeah. People pleasing is very hard. It... And it, the thing is, you can, you can please people, just make sure that you're one of them. And th- that's the harder part is I'm always... People say I'm always saying yes to things. I don't know how to say no to things. I don't know where to go with this. That's a whole lot harder. Using your assertive voices helps with that in a lot of ways, and it is about trying to make sure that when you people please with people, you have to find a way to set a boundary that is going to protect yourself, and that's, that's, uh, easier said than done.

    17. SB

      It's, it's interesting. Being a... I started

  16. 32:50 – 35:40

    Having an Assertive Voice

    1. SB

      my first business when I was, my first proper business, when I was about 18 years old, and when you're 18 years old and you're dealing with people that are like double your age and you're different because your skin color's a little bit different, you have no experience, you... I reflect... I was talking to the guy that was cutting my hair yesterday 'cause he's a, a young Black man starting in business, and you're aware that every conversation you're having to some degree is a test.

    2. JF

      Yeah.

    3. SB

      It's like a test of how much you value yourself, how much you believe in yourself, and how much you believe in what you're building and what you're saying. Like, and that's an interesting way to think of life that, like, every conversation is actually a test.

    4. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    5. SB

      A test of your conviction. And I was just, I was talking to my barber about how I've changed over time, and how business has made me become more direct and more assertive than I was when I was 18 years old. Because, like, I wouldn't have survived in some of the rooms that I'm in with, like, very eccentric billionaires who have-

    6. JF

      (laughs)

    7. SB

      ... done this 40 years before me if, if I didn't have that assertive voice-

    8. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    9. SB

      ... if I wasn't able to look them in the eye and say with calmness and a slower pace what I believe to be true. Um, it's so interesting, like, I th- just thinking about how so much of our life is about developing this ability to assert what we believe without the just or the-

    10. JF

      Yes.

    11. SB

      ... caveats or the excuse.

    12. JF

      Exactly. Yeah, where they also go into trouble is when people... What I see a lot are people that over-apologize. I, I find that that is big with people pleasers, where they say "I'm sorry" in every single sentence. "Hey, so sorry I'm just now getting back to you. Sorry, you're just now seeing this. Oh, I can't come, so sorry." Like, they start to apologize for things that are not a mistake. They apologize for things that, that are not errors.

    13. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    14. JF

      And when you start to over-apologize with every little thing, without you knowing it, it's slowly, drip by drip, corroding your sense of self-esteem, your sense of self-worth. It, it's you... Your self-worth is not tied to how little of an inconvenience you can make yourself by always saying, "Hey, it's... So sorry. I, I, I don't mean to bother you. I just have a quick question." Instead of the over-apologies, what I teach is use words of gratitude. So instead of the, um, "So, so sorry I'm late," even though you were like one minute late, "Thank you for waiting on me."

    15. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    16. JF

      Or, "Thank you giving..." Uh, let's say it's an email. "Thank you for giving me the, the time to think on this. Thank you for giving me the time to reply."

    17. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    18. JF

      "Thank you for giving me the patience." And you know what the other person's gonna think? "I am patient. Oh yes, I am. You're so welcome."

    19. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    20. JF

      I mean, you're, you're using words of gratitude to press that, and that's a whole lot easier than the problem of people pleasers and that's just over-apologizing to just about everything, or they undercut their words where they say like, uh, "I hate to bother you, but..." and then they have to say what they need to say.

  17. 35:40 – 37:08

    What Do the Most Successful People Have in Common?

    1. JF

    2. SB

      In this regard, what do the most successful people in the world, the leaders, the prime ministers, the presidents, the CEOs, have in common as it relates to the stuff we're talking about right now? So you know what I'm saying? So like-

    3. JF

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      ... are they, are they assertive? Are they people pleasers? Like, what do they have in common here?

    5. JF

      What I find, that people are people, so it's gonna... Uh, most often, it's just gonna come down to that, to their personality, but overall, your most effective leaders find ways of taking a lot of ideas and words and saying them very concisely. The bigger leaders, they don't write long emails.

    6. SB

      Yeah, that's so true.

    7. JF

      They don't write long texts.

    8. SB

      Rich people don't even say "Hello" and "Kind regards" on fucking emails.

    9. JF

      Yeah. (laughs)

    10. SB

      They just, they literally, they s- they send emails like text messages.

    11. JF

      Yeah. I have, I have found in my own life that the richer somebody is, they could care less about an email signature.

    12. SB

      Yeah. (laughs)

    13. JF

      They're not... The, if they even have one, and they might give you two sentences, maybe.

    14. SB

      Yeah.

    15. JF

      I mean, it's very, very quick and to the point, um, because it's either they really don't have the time. (laughs)

    16. SB

      Yeah.

    17. JF

      It's not really that. It's they, they want to have the appearance of being very, they're direct, and they don't see that as, uh, an offense. They don't see that as an insult. They see that as that is the way that I'm going to operate. They don't write long...... e-mails. They don't write them in a way that's going, "Hey, uh, just want to put this on your plate, and if, if I'm wrong about this, you can totally let me know, and I have a question about

  18. 37:08 – 39:51

    Say Things to Connect

    1. JF

      this."

    2. SB

      What's number three, then? So you've given me two.

    3. JF

      Yeah. We say, say it with, uh, say it with control, say it with confidence, and three is say it to connect. These are, how do you have, how do you have these difficult conversations with somebody? How do you find ways to say what you need to say in one of the most difficult times? That gives a lot of people anxiety if they know they have to have a difficult conversation, even in weeks ahead, especially the day ahead. They're just dreading it.

    4. SB

      Mm-hmm. So how do I say something to connect?

    5. JF

      Yeah. What you want to do is get really curious about the other person, but not just so much that. There is a framework that I'm, I can even give you. So we can go a step further. There is a frame, and I call them conversational frames. When, to connect with somebody, it is a fancy word. I think connection can be overused at times. It just means I say something that you can understand and you acknowledge me. That's all we're looking for. Doesn't mean that everything's happy. Doesn't mean that it's a hallmark, hardly. I can connect with you and still be upset at you. My dad would, used to tell me, if I came, if I disagreed with something, he'd say, he would go, "You don't have to like it. You just need to understand it."

    6. SB

      (laughs)

    7. JF

      I mean, that, that right there was a great example of allowing me to connect with him and giving me the, the space to disagree. If you were to begin your sentence with, "I'm not asking to change your mind," or, "I don't need to change your mind," that, it's almost like a relief before you say the rest of what you need to say. Now you're not in that combative fight or flight of, do I have to defend myself at any time? So connection is this way of setting up conversations that is going to get you more of what you want. We talked about the frame. Here's how to do it, and this is the most effective tool that you can use for a difficult conversation. Number one, you're gonna begin with telling them what you want to talk about. Number two, you tell them, and this is the most important, how you want to end the conversation, what you wanna walk away from. And three, you get their buy-in into that conversational frame. This is what it sounds like. Let's say this is, I need to come to you and talk about something serious. So first I'm gonna say what we need to talk about. "Stephen, I'd like to talk with you about some comments you made at last Thursday's meeting." Two, I'm gonna tell them how I wanna walk away. It sounds like, "And I wanna walk away from that conversation with the understanding that's not gonna happen again." Three, I'm gonna get their buy-in. I'm gonna say, "That sound good?" You're gonna say, "Yeah." Now you know exactly where we're going. You know exactly what we're gonna talk about. You know when that conversation's going to end and how it's going to end, and now I have your buy-in. And it's like almost an invisible contract when somebody goes, "Yeah, that's good. We can talk about that." They don't wanna leave it. They don't wanna break their word, so they, they know that they're gonna be stuck in it.

  19. 39:51 – 42:19

    Should Our Aim Be to Win the Argument?

    1. JF

    2. SB

      Mm-hmm. And then is there anything I need to be aware of when I have that difficult conversation with them so that I don't ... so that I'm successful in getting to that outcome?

    3. JF

      N- Number one would be set the goal of knowing where it's going to end. That, that is the hardest, probably the biggest downfall of the difficult conversation. People expect them to go how they had it in their head. They want the conversation to happen just like they had it while they were brushing their teeth that morning or driving on the way into work. They're like, "Okay, I'm gonna say this, and then they're gonna say this," and you expect everything to go just how you had it in your head. But as soon as they say that one thing you weren't expecting, all of a sudden they disagree with you and you go, "Wait, that's not how it's supposed to be. They were, they were supposed to say this. They were supposed to say I'm right. They were supposed to say they're wrong." I mean, it, uh, how's this gonna go? And then it begins to falter, like that.

    4. SB

      'Cause when we go into those sort of difficult conversations, whether it's with a colleague or our spouse or whoever it might be, much of the objective, I think for some of us, is to, is to win the conversation.

    5. JF

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      In whatever definition of winning one might have. Is endeavoring to win a conversation a good idea?

    7. JF

      I teach that you never want to win an argument, and this is why. When you look to win an argument, you will often lose the relationship. Like, if you set out to only prove people wrong, yeah, you might win the point, but you will lose the person. You know, being right doesn't keep you company. Let's put it that way. When I look at as arguments as only something to win, all I've won is really the first step to, to apologize, typically, when you set out to win it. Because most arguments aren't really won, it's just they're won by forfeit. Somebody goes, "I, I'm over this," or you said something that was really hurtful that makes them say, "Uh, I don't want to ... Uh, we're done. I don't wanna talk about this." An argument eventually burns out. That's what happens. But when you set out to win, you will lose the relationship. Like if you, you and I are in an argument and I say something that's really hurtful and then you leave, you hang up the phone, what have I won?

    8. SB

      Hmm.

    9. JF

      Yeah, I mean, what ... I, I've, I've won awkward silence now when we pass each other in the hall. I've, I've won that awkward feeling. Now I have to pick up the phone and apologize. I still have to find a way to probably work with you or live with you. When, when what have you proven? When has ever you go onto social media and disparaged somebody's political belief ever changed their mind? Ever?

  20. 42:19 – 45:21

    Why Winning the Argument Can Feel Bitter-Sweet

    1. JF

    2. SB

      There's been so many arguments I've had with, like, my girlfriend where I have, quote unquote, won, and I've felt like shit.

    3. JF

      Yeah. You will.

    4. SB

      'Cause I, 'cause she, like, she might come to me and say, "Do you know what? I understand your point and I'm, I'm sorry." And there's part of me that just feels like shit. And I, I, it's, it's because I thought that's the outcome I was looking for, but actually, the outcome I was look, looking for was resolution. And I actually l- love this person so much that a concession was not like, was actually not, I, is not what I wanted. I actually wanted to be happy with them.

    5. JF

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      So I had to, you know ... I was thinking of some of these, some of these, some recent examples where my girlfriend came to me and apologized for something where we were, like, disagreeing about it, and I just felt like shit that she apologized.

    7. JF

      (laughs)

    8. SB

      It's hard to explain. (laughs)

    9. JF

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, no, it's not an uncommon experience. Whenever you feel like you had to always be right-... and that's what we really want. We want the last word. When you have the last word, you are typically first up to apologize. That's all you've, that's all you bought yourself. That's the, that's your prize. Congrats.

    10. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. JF

      And when that happens, you find a way of going, "That's not really what I, I wanted. Why did I say that? That was just, that was just hubris, that was just me. I just had a feeling of being right." And sometimes we have that feeling of ... when, especially in terms of people that are in charge of other people, um, we expect others to do what we say. When you're in work mode and you say, "I need this done," people get it done. You set the tone. You, "This is how we wanna do it." And sometimes we translate that into our own romantic relationships.

    12. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    13. JF

      "Oh, no, I said it needs to be this way, so you know what you need to do? You need to do it this way."

    14. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    15. JF

      And it's a different shift when you're doing something that's romantic versus something that is you have to be captain of the, the ship. And so whenever you're in those difficult conversations, you only see them something to win, you're gonna have a hard pro- problem. What I teach is instead of seeing arguments as something to win, you see them as something to unravel. Meaning, what we wanna do is pull my way, and then you pull it your way, and it just makes it worse. It makes it worse. We have to give up. And it's not until that next conversation that we actually tr- try and care of what happened. I will often tell someone, "Help me find the nod. Help me find the nod." And what I'm doing is encouraging them to say ... I'm not saying, "What's wrong with you?" I'm not saying, "Can, can you be any more stupid?" I'm saying, "Help me find the nod." It's a way of detaching the issue, detaching the problem, saying, "This is something for us both to look at. Help unravel where's the, what am I missing?" That phrase right there is very, very effective. If you can just ask them the question, "What am I missing?" They will always tell you, 'cause most likely, it's not something that you're focused on. You're only focused on what you're saying. You're not focused on what they're hearing. Big, big difference.

    16. SB

      I have, um, two glasses on the floor here.

    17. JF

      Yeah.

    18. SB

      Um, try not to spill it.

    19. JF

      Nice.

    20. SB

      Been some time since I've been a waiter.

    21. JF

      (laughs)

  21. 45:21 – 52:12

    How to Have an Effective Conversation

    1. SB

      Um, so I have these two glasses of water in front of me.

    2. JF

      Yeah.

    3. SB

      What is ... I know there's an analogy you, you have for having a good, effective conversation that can be demonstrated with these two glasses of water.

    4. JF

      Yeah. So let's say that this glass right here is all of my thoughts and knowledge, and your glass is all of your thoughts and knowledge. And not just what you think now. These are things that you've known throughout your entire life. So if I were to tell you something about ... I wanna get your thoughts on maybe a political opinion or something that's a religious belief. I'm talking, like, deeply held beliefs that you grew up with. That's what's in that cup right there. When we go into a conversation with someone, often what we find is, especially if it's, like, a stranger, that what I say in our first conversation should convince you automatically that if I were to take all of my knowledge right here and I pour it in, there should be no problem. But what, but what happens? When I start to pour into here, that overflows. Meaning, you have no room. You have no room for what I want to share whatsoever. It's gonna just, it's overflow. Instead, what you have to find are ways to ask questions and get really curious. Meaning, instead of me pushing my point, instead of saying, "Why do you believe that?" and beginning your question with why, I start to get really curious about, "How did you come to believe that? Where did you learn that? When did this happen?" Ways that I get to ask questions every day, like I do as a trial attorney, to find ways of getting to the issue of what's that deeply held belief? Where does it come from? Because only then, let's go ahead and pour yours into mine. (glass clinking) There you go. Perfect. And so it's only then, until you have space that I'm asking questions, whenever I ask questions and you start to answer just a little bit more, and then you answer just a little bit more, to where you actually have space to care at all to what I'm gonna tell you. Like, you can't fill ... I can't fill a glass that's already full with new thoughts. It's not gonna happen. It's not until I can get you to pour it all out, till you'll ever be receptive and have room for what I want to share with you. So that's the key in difficult conversations, that you have to find ways to get really curious about who's the person behind the words? Because the person you see isn't the person you're talking to. I might be talking to Stephen right now, but there are things that happened in your life that you believe that happened long before I ever talked to you. And we have this hubris about us that we think that just because I told you you should believe something right at this moment, you're gonna automatically change your mind. Minds don't get changed in one conversation. Th- they happen over a year of a hundred conversations, a thousand conversations, before anybody will ever be receptive to what you have to say.

    5. SB

      So what's, like, a real world example of this idea that you might not be talking to Stephen, you might be talking to something he's dealing with?

    6. JF

      Yeah. So let's put it in terms of I've had a, uh, a client before. Uh, this is not a ... Let me rephrase that. I had a deposition before where I was talking to a witness, and he was a huge mountain of a man. His name is Bobby LaPray. I'm talking, Stephen, he was huge. His hands ... I mean, he just looked ... I looked like I was physically deficient in every way next to this guy. And it didn't matter what I asked him, Stephen, he got mad at me. I mean, I was asking him basic things, like, "Where were you, where were you born?" Okay, and "Where'd you, where'd you go next?" and "What happened next?" And every time, he would just get angry and angrier. And eventually, I had to ask him, I said, "Do you need a break?" And he said, "No, but I got something to say." And I thought, I thought he was about to just flip the, the table on me, he, he was just so furious. And I asked him, well, once he even told me...He said, "You, you can cut all this buddy-buddy stuff." Except he didn't say stuff. And he said, "You, you lawyers, you attorneys, you're the worst thing that happened in this government. You're the worst thing that happened. So you can go on and ask your stupid questions, but I don't trust you as far as I can throw you." Well, instead of taking that bait, which is most people wanted to do, I asked him a question. I said, "What am I missing? What's, what are you struggling with right now in your, in your life? What's been your biggest struggle?" And they have to ask, man, they have to an- answer questions in a deposition. And what I learned was that he, big, Bobby Lapraia, this huge guy, had just put his mother in a nursing home and he was the only one to take care of her. His dad had died, his brother was off, and he had been getting letters for months about his mom and her home from lawyers about foreclosing, making demands, debt collection, all these things that he just didn't understand. And so right then in that moment, I represented everything he knew about the law and lawyers and everything else. And so the person I saw was an aggressive, mad witness. The person I was talking to was a worried son. And, and w- we got to talk that out and I helped him and it was a, it ended a- ended wonderful. We ended actually hugging. But every day you had these micro-moments of the person you see is not the person you're talking to, the, the waitress that looks like she's being rude and dismissive is actually worried because she should've gotten off two hours ago and her mom is still keeping her kids. Or you have somebody who, even in the workplace, who seem like they're a little bit short on their, their phone call with you, somebody who looks like they're aggravated, actually their day began because, you know, he and his wife were going through a divorce and they stayed up all night arguing. Everybody has a struggle that you can't see. They're having a conversation in their head that you are not invited to. And so when you have the patience to try and understand the person behind the words, it's going to go a, a whole lot better for you, and they'll feel that. When you just wanna accept them for what they look like, it's, it's always different. Like when I, if I were to tell you you were wrong about something, I, uh, for me to change your mind like right now, I most likely am not saying that Stephen's wrong. I'm saying your parents are wrong. I'm saying a grandparent's wrong. Something you grew up, your whole life was wrong. That camp you went to growing up was all wrong. There's pieces and identities that have all combined into what you believe now. And we have this horrible habit of thinking for some reason that if I say it to you right in this moment, it's all going to change and you're gonna, uh, just immediately conform to what I want you to be.

  22. 52:12 – 58:40

    How the Past and Your Identity Can Trigger You

    1. JF

    2. SB

      Being triggered is a hallmark of that, isn't it?

    3. JF

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      Like being, when we say, "Oh, they're, God, they're, like, easily triggered," it's really you're scratching at a open wound that might've been there many years ago. I w- I was reflecting as you were speaking about a particular friend that I have who I remember a conversation with him in the middle of the pandemic where I, h- he, like, turned to me and said, um, "It's people that are young and healthy that are ending up in the hospital beds." And I remember saying to him, I was like... I was living at his house, I was like, "No, I don't think that, I think, the web-"

    5. JF

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      "... the NHS website says it's people that are, like, out of shape and slightly older that are ending up in hospital beds." And he, like, was, like, really, really triggered by that.

    7. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    8. SB

      And I remember, he's, like, a good friend of mine, so we had a conversation about it. And we dug and dug and dug, 'cause we are, like, really good friends, like, why, why is it that all of us as, like, boys, we know in, like, the group chat when we're bantering, all we've gotta do is say, like, "No, you're wrong."

    9. JF

      One little thing.

    10. SB

      One thing. And it's like red mist.

    11. JF

      Yeah.

    12. SB

      And we had, like, a really open conversation about it over, uh, really over the last, like, year and a half. And he said, um, "When I was younger, all of the teachers thought I was stupid, and also I then got bullied on the playground because people thought I was stupid, and then I found text messages from my grandmother to my mum where they said I was stupid, and then I found on my report card they'd basically written me off." So 30 years later when we're having a conversation-

    13. JF

      Wow.

    14. SB

      ... like, just a trivial conversation about the pandemic-

    15. JF

      Yeah.

    16. SB

      ... when I go, "No, I don't think that's right," and I, like, pull up the website and stuff, and he gets, like, sees the red mist, as me and him call it now, it all stems back-

    17. JF

      Yeah.

    18. SB

      ... 30 years to this experience of, on the playground. So-

    19. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    20. SB

      ... like you said, it could be proving, proving someone wrong, but in, in that case, it's actually like proving the bullies right.

    21. JF

      Yes.

    22. SB

      It's proving all the people that hurt him right.

    23. JF

      Yeah.

    24. SB

      And it's showing up 30 years later as this red mist. The story ends with him going to a therapist and speaking about it.

    25. JF

      Yeah.

    26. SB

      And he's resolved it now to the extent at which he can where now when he feels that feeling, he's able to point at it, he knows what it is, and so it doesn't make the decision.

    27. JF

      Right. Knowing your trigger is one of the biggest ways to defend against that, to know your trigger. And it's funny how, just like your friend was telling you, so many things in everybody's life goes back to the playground.

    28. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    29. JF

      Like, we can remember that thing that that one kid said, like, right now.

    30. SB

      Mm-hmm.

  23. 58:40 – 1:07:01

    What to Do When You're Disrespected

    1. JF

    2. SB

      So many people are so interested in understanding how to deal with disrespectful people.

    3. JF

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      Like, being disrespected.

    5. JF

      Right.

    6. SB

      So if I'm being disrespected-

    7. JF

      Uh-huh.

    8. SB

      ... is there a playbook for me to handle that? And why is it that so many people are so obsessed with, like, dealing with disrespect?

    9. JF

      I find that people are really attracted to comebacks of things. And I find that so funny, but it's a, it's a big part of communication for an important reason. When somebody is, let's say, belittling you or being rude or being disrespectful, there's kind of... I teach there's a little bit of a different method for each one, and how you handle it makes a very big difference. What we typically want to do when somebody's being rude to us or disrespectful, we want to throw it right back at their face. We wanna ratchet it up because now we gotta... now we gotta win. So, "Oh, you think I'm stupid? How about... Let me talk about how you're stupid." I mean, so we wanna throw it back at the other person. All that does is ratchet it up, and then again, it's... it becomes to who's going to apologize first. That kind of is where the game starts to lead. Um, what do you ha- I was curious what you have on the book now.

    10. SB

      Well, I was just looking at th- this section in your book-

    11. JF

      Yeah.

    12. SB

      ... about dealing with difficult people.

    13. JF

      Yeah. That's probably my favorite.

    14. SB

      Um, it's your favorite?

    15. JF

      Yeah. Well, it's also probably the most popular part of the book because it outlines a specific manual on how to handle these kinds of people. And I've developed it from these people specifically that I've had in depositions and cross-examinations in the courtroom, that, uh, very combative people that you find ways to... You think that the power is in having a direct response back at them that's gonna uppercut them. Like, smart people, people like you, Steven, people like, uh, all, all your listeners, we have this desire that when somebody says something ugly, we wanna send a zinger. Like, we wanna have s- we wanna craft something so poetic that it's not gonna hit them until the two days to go like, "Oh, my gosh. He totally got me." And that's just not gonna happen. But the true power is this kind of be like water mentality. It's instead of direct with them, you're just avoiding it. You're pushing it out of the way to where you're going, "What you're saying is not threatening to me." And you do that in several different ways. This would be how I'd say how to handle people that are belittling you or giving you disrespect. One, you're gonna add silence, five to seven seconds of nothing. Two, you're gonna ask them to say it again. Let's say it's insults. Though insults are very direct. You're gonna ask them to repeat it.... and three, you're going to just let that sit. So whatever they say. So for example, um, let's put it in terms of somebody who... Let's give it an example. (sighs) This would be somebody who's given you just a straight insult. Insults are different from, uh, disrespect or s- something being rude. Insults are very direct as saying, somebody saying, like, "You're ugly." Right? Um, how I, if I were to say, "You're ugly," how would you respond? And you're not, by the way, but let's just say.

    16. SB

      (laughs) It- it- so it's so hard because it's like the c- context dependent. Like if you just said something-

    17. JF

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    18. SB

      ... I'd laugh, but-

    19. JF

      Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

    20. SB

      ... if it was like... It depends on the context, doesn't it? For me.

    21. JF

      Yeah. I would say, I would be like, "Oh that's, um, that's the shirt you went with? Oh, I guess. All right." Okay. Like that's-

    22. SB

      Yeah.

    23. JF

      It, whenever somebody is insults, uh, insulting you-

    24. SB

      Yeah.

    25. JF

      ... we have this ability to get really mad and stew on it and get angry. But best way to do it is, let's say, if you told me, you know, "I, I really think you're an idiot, Jefferson." Give it a, a little bit of silence and I would repeat, "I'm an idiot, Jefferson." Now that's gonna put a spotlight right back on you for you to confirm it, double down on it, or you're gonna apologize. A lot of time in arguments people take it back. "I'm sorry. I shouldn't have, I shouldn't have said that. My head was, m- I, I got too in front of it." But if they double down on it, what, all you need to do is just thank them. "Thank you." In other words, "Thank you for showing me who you are. Thank you for making sure that I'm not gonna be with you, uh, anymore and this is who you are in my life." Very different from, let's say, with somebody who is belittling you, uh, patronizing you, being condescending to you. This is where, uh, it gets fun. This is one of my favorite ones. So let's, let's give this a, um, a test. "Oh, Stephen, I see that, uh, you lost some weight. That's, that's great, man. Good for, good for you." How would you typically wanna respond to that?

    26. SB

      Thank you.

    27. JF

      Yeah. Now if I had said something that was, um, a little bit more ugly. If it was like, "Oh, you finally lost some weight. I was wondering when you would... Yeah, uh, that's, that's good on you." Would you still say thank you again?

    28. SB

      No.

    29. JF

      Yeah. What would you say?

    30. SB

      That's rude. (laughs)

  24. 1:07:01 – 1:14:39

    Why People Are Rude to You

    1. JF

    2. SB

      On page 166 of your book, The Next Conversation, you say, "When you hear someone say something rude or insulting, understand that they're wanting something from you. That something is dopamine, the feel-good hormone." That something is dopamine.

    3. JF

      Yeah. So when they, when somebody says something to be ugly, what they're wanting is your emotion. They're saying, "I'm unhappy. I'm only gonna be satisfied if I can make you a little bit unhappy too."...that's where I'm gonna feel justified in this. I'm only going to feel justified when I've caused you pain. And when that happens, your best defense against that is to be like a wet blanket, like be a soggy piece of bread that they can't do anything with. They can't move that, they can't control that. And what you're telling them in that moment is, "It's not going to be that fun for you."

    4. SB

      Hmm.

    5. JF

      And that's the best way to handle a bully. A bully does something and you ask them, "Did you say that to hurt me, or does it feel good for you to say that?" Or, "How did you want me to respond when you said that?" Let's say I came in and I go, "Oh, I guess we're, you know, I guess this is okay. Yeah, I guess we can talk in here. That's fine."

    6. SB

      (laughs)

    7. JF

      Right? I mean, that's kind of condescending.

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. JF

      Yeah, wouldn't you say? And if you had asked me in that moment, um, "Did you mean for that to sound rude?" I'd be like, "Oh, n- oh, no, goodness." Either, either I'm calling it out or you'd say, "Uh, that's, that's an odd thing to say out loud."

    10. SB

      Can you say that in all contexts? So I'm thinking if you-

    11. JF

      Yeah.

    12. SB

      ...can you say that to your, like the CEO of the company, you're an intern.

    13. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    14. SB

      And they say something to you, and that, e- they look at a piece of work you've made and they go, "I mean, I guess that's okay."

    15. JF

      Yeah.

    16. SB

      Do you know what I mean? Does context matter here?

    17. JF

      Well, I, I still think you can say it. I mean, it depends how you're going to-

    18. SB

      Lose your job.

    19. JF

      ...to put it. Yeah, yeah, s- it just depends. Uh, yeah, context certainly matters on some level, but, I mean, if, if it is a position of just, I think if there's a, such a huge power dynamic, something like that, if you're an intern and you're like, "Look, this guy's just having a bad day. Oh, I don't think I need, this is not the time for me to choose to try and have a, uh, a, a way of making him feel bad." Or if it's like, "Okay, I can, I'll accept that or I can do better with that," there's ways that you can try and diffuse the, the rudeness. Another that I really like to, to use, this would not be in, in that context, but, "That's below my standard for a response." Those are really bad arguments. So I've had it where really, really bad arguments where you've used, "That's below my standard for a response," and they really don't know what to say after that. A lot of the times when I'm in depositions and somebody's has a snarky comment towards me, I'll ask them, "Now how, how did you want me to respond to that?" Uh, they don't know. They, they don't really have an answer. They kind of just go, "Oh, oh, I mean, what, I mean, what I meant was..." And they, and they fix it. But the signal you're sending, the whole point of it all, is to show them that the next time you choose to do this, it's not gonna be fun. This is not what you're getting. That's the whole point of getting them to repeat a lot of the times. If I say, "I, you know what? I didn't, I didn't catch that. Can you, can you say that again?" They can't bear to say that again.

    20. SB

      It's like conversational boundaries is what I'm saying.

    21. JF

      Yeah. So one time I had a case between two sisters, and it was about as fun as it sounds. Uh, two older sisters, they were fighting over a company. Their dad had passed away. I had one sister, another attorney friend of mine had another sister. And m- my client was, let's say, very levelheaded. She wanted to preserve the legacy of the family and the company. The other had very different life choices, let's say, and the other one wanted to sell the company. Well, they eventually came to almost an agreement on how they were going to divvy up, uh, buy, buy the sister out. We're at mediation, and I knew that, we knew that this other sister was, there's no telling what she was gonna, she was gonna say out of her mouth. And I had already prepared my client for, "If she insults, if she says anything ugly, I'm, you're gonna ask her to say that again. All right?" So sure enough, we get at the mediation table, we have a, a opening discussion, and the sister, the, let's s- say the, the more fiery sister goes on this tirade and s- and says how everything's against her, she hates everything, and then she looks at her sister and says, "And I've never, I, I've never loved you. You're dead to me anyway." Now, that's, sister to sister, that's, like, terrible. Like, it's, it was, it was super sad to watch. My client goes, "I need you to say that again to me." And the other sister couldn't do it. She didn't say that again, because it, it puts them out on a ledge where they, they can't really, they're not gonna get the effect. It's not nearly as effective when you say it the second time.

    22. SB

      It's the, the first time was through emotion, it was the amygdala, uh-

    23. JF

      You got it.

    24. SB

      ...and the second time was you're forcing them to, into the prefrontal cortex to make, like, a, a logical...

    25. JF

      You got it.

    26. SB

      Yeah.

    27. JF

      That now they have to think, "Does this make sense for me to say again?"

    28. SB

      Yeah.

    29. JF

      Because the first, it, the first effect isn't there. It's not as, uh, it's not as powerful the first time. When somebody gives you an insult and you say, "You know, I didn't, I didn't catch all that. I need you to say that again for me. Can you repeat that?" Most of the time they won't, because they know, uh, "Now I look bad." 'Cause you, all you did by, with that question is put the spotlight right back on them, and they can't, they can't take that, so they don't know what to do with it.

    30. SB

      It's interesting, 'cause some of the things you, as you were talking, I was thinking, is this like advice for dealing with really toxic people or is this also advice just for dealing with, like, couples arguing? 'Cause it sounded... The type of person that would not respond to, "That really hurt me"-

Episode duration: 2:17:11

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