The Subtle Art Of Not Giving A F*ck: Mark Manson | E111

1. 0:00 – 2:07

   Intro

   1. MMMark Manson0:00

      I always felt like an outcast. I was bullied. My big goal in life was like, I want to be a best-selling author. And then it happens, and it really fucked with me. (dramatic music) We're wired to want status. We're wired to want to be beautiful and sexy and to want to impress others. Like, that's never going to go away. The question is, is like, what do you want once that is kind of removed from the equation? (dramatic music) You can always choose in every moment to see things in a way that, that makes you feel better. It's not easy. It's actually really, really hard, but in that sense, happiness can be a choice. It's just a question of do you know how to access it? (music)

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:43

      Mark Manson, the author of one of the best-selling self-development books of the decade, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck. I read this book many, many years ago, and I learned so much from it. So when they told me that Mark Manson was in London, we got in touch with him quickly, and I think this conversation is going to prove why. He is one of the most wise, honest, open individuals I have ever met, and one of the most remarkable things he says in this conversation was this smash hit book, which has sold more than 10 million copies, and I know you've seen everywhere, when that became a success, he lost orientation in his life. Mark's complete story, the story you've probably never heard, is immense. He used to be a pickup artist. He then became an entrepreneur, which led him to become a blogger, which led him to become an author, and he draws on all of those experiences in one of the most self-aware ways I've ever seen on this podcast to deliver actionable insights to live a better life. He's a guest that you requested time and time again, and I'm so glad you did. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (music)

2. 2:07 – 18:22

   Your early years

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:07

      Mark, take me back to Austin, Texas in the 1980s-ish time when you were born.

   2. MMMark Manson2:16

      Oh, God. (laughs)

   3. SBSteven Bartlett2:17

      What was life l- what, what was life like for you?

   4. MMMark Manson2:21

      I mean, when I was really young, it was, it was nice. You know, so I grew, I grew up, I had a very kind of conventional suburban American childhood, um, especially when I was younger. You know, so, um, I had the house with the yard and all the kids on the street and, you know, playing soccer and, or football or whatever. Um, so, so that was nice. I think, um, where things started to kind of go off the rails, so to speak, um, when, you know, when you start hitting that age, 11, 12, 13, and you s- you start, your brain develops a little more and you, you start becoming a little bit more aware of, um, norms, and, and culture, and people's expectations of you, and things like that. Um, I grew up in a very, I grew up in the American South, um, so I grew up very religious, very conservative, uh, and I'm neither of those things. (laughs)

   5. SBSteven Bartlett3:24

      (laughs)

   6. MMMark Manson3:25

      So, um, starting around that time, I started kind of feeling like an oddball, you know?

   7. SBSteven Bartlett3:30

      Mm-hmm.

   8. MMMark Manson3:31

      Um, I was really into art and music and, uh, books. I read all the time, and, you know, tho- those values just weren't really respected a whole lot where I, where I came from. In fact, they were viewed as suspect.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett3:48

      I was gonna say, on the playground, that doesn't sound like it would be th- uh, conducive with fitting in and-

   10. MMMark Manson3:53

       Yeah.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett3:53

       ... being part of the crew.

   12. MMMark Manson3:55

       Yeah, and i- it's, um... Yeah, I mean, i- it's a very, it was a very conformist culture, but then there's also, there's a weird thing in the American South that, um, people are very sensitive to, to kind of like, you know, "You think you're better than me? You think you're smarter, you think you're smart? You think you're, like, so good 'cause you read this book and, you know, got an A on that test or whatever?" So there's like a weird, like it's actually very toxic, but like there's kind of a weird judgment that happens if you're not doing the same thing the same way as everybody else. So yeah, I, I, I, I started to kind of become like the nerd slash, uh, like loner kid. Um, and this was the '90s, so of course I wore, like, band T-shirts and, and dressed in all black, and like-

   13. SBSteven Bartlett4:46

       That's all back in now. (laughs)

   14. MMMark Manson4:47

       Yeah, I know, right? (laughs) Thank God.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett4:50

       My timing.

   16. MMMark Manson4:51

       I finally know what's going on again.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett4:53

       (laughs)

   18. MMMark Manson4:53

       I'm old enough to know what's going on again. Um, so yeah, it was, it was a weird adolescence. It was, uh, it wasn't a, it wasn't a ton of fun. Um, and I think by the time I was like 14 or 15, I was just like, "I gotta get outta here. I gotta, I, like, I gotta get to one of the coasts," and-

   19. SBSteven Bartlett5:10

       Were you bullied in school?

   20. MMMark Manson5:12

       A little bit. A little bit. Um, not like to a dramatic extent, but, um, yeah, definitely some like, shitty experiences, for sure.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett5:24

       Did you have a lot of friends back then in school?

   22. MMMark Manson5:27

       Um, no. No, I, I had a handful of like very, very close friends. You know, other, other guys who were weirdos and loners-

   23. SBSteven Bartlett5:36

       Mm-hmm.

   24. MMMark Manson5:36

       ... and into music, and-

   25. SBSteven Bartlett5:37

       Mm-hmm.

   26. MMMark Manson5:38

       ... stuff like that.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett5:39

       And your parental dynamics, they were, your parents, I read that they got divorced when you were around that age as well?

   28. MMMark Manson5:44

       Yeah.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett5:44

       Which was a-

   30. MMMark Manson5:45

       Yeah. Yeah, I m- I mean, my, my parents are really good people, but, um, I would describe it now as they were doing the best they could with what they knew, but their knowledge wasn't, uh-... I guess, sufficient to be, like-
3. 18:22 – 22:46

   Pickup artistry

   1. SBSteven Bartlett18:22

      kinda started your, your...... the journey into the pickup artistry world, right?

   2. MMMark Manson18:26

      Yeah. Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett18:26

      So, tell me about that, 'cause, um, we- before we started recording, I shared a secret that I've never shared before, which is that I also found myself fall into the pickup artistry world when I was in my early 20s-

   4. MMMark Manson18:37

      Yep.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett18:37

      ... because of Neil Strauss and then Mystery and then every other book that I read and every other vi- video and documentary and YouTube video that I c- consumed and torrent that I downloaded-

   6. MMMark Manson18:45

      (laughs)

   7. SBSteven Bartlett18:45

      ... (laughs) and forum that I s- scraped. Um, but when I, when I read that in your story, I found that really, really fascinating because, um, I suspected the incentives and the appeal of that world were probably quite similar to me in the sense of me being quite insecure and, um, seeking, uh, uh, w- well, yeah, seeking validation from women maybe.

   8. MMMark Manson19:06

      Yeah.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett19:06

      So, tell me about your journey into pickup artistry.

   10. MMMark Manson19:09

       I took to it pretty, pretty hard and pretty quickly. I think it, it really scratched that, that itch, uh, that, of that insecurity I had, you know, f- from my childhood. Um, you know, looking back on, on the pickup stuff, i- it's really interesting and it, and it's funny because it's... (laughs) Over the years, I've met so many talented and successful guys. Like, when you told me that you were into it, it, I kinda, I wasn't even surprised. Like, I've met so many talented, successful guys in the last five, 10 years who are like, "Oh, yeah, I was, I wa- I was, I was into that shit too." You know? It's like, we kinda like say it under our breath.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett19:47

       (laughs)

   12. MMMark Manson19:47

       And I think it, it... Here's my theory about what, what that whole thing was and why it happened. When I look back in the 2000s, self-help and personal development was still very different back then. Like, it wasn't socially acceptable for men to kind of get into, you know, feelings and trauma and, and healing and recovery and all this stuff. Like, it was still, it was still something kinda shameful. Like, your, your, your buddies would make fun of you for it if they found out that you were...

   13. SBSteven Bartlett20:23

       Mm-hmm.

   14. MMMark Manson20:23

       Like, if you went out and read, um, you know, like a Louise Hay book or a, you know, like, I'm Okay, You're Okay, like if, if like your buddy caught you with one of those books in your bedroom, he'd start ripping on you for it. And s- and there was something about making it about dating, sex and dating, that made it socially okay.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett20:46

       Mm.

   16. MMMark Manson20:46

       Like it's, it's, now it's like a cool thing to do. But really what it was, is it was just self-help in disguise. Like most of it, you know, for every pickup line or whatever there was, like there were, there was really useful advice about, uh, you know, social skills, self-esteem, uh, confidence, um, taking care of yourself, you know, hygiene, thing-

   17. SBSteven Bartlett21:11

       100%.

   18. MMMark Manson21:11

       ... grooming, you know?

   19. SBSteven Bartlett21:12

       Yeah.

   20. MMMark Manson21:12

       And, and it, so there was like so much good life advice there, and then... (laughs) But there was also so much bad advice there too.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett21:19

       Yeah.

   22. MMMark Manson21:19

       So, it was this very mixed bag, but I think it was just a lot of guys like you and me who were, were damaged essentially-

   23. SBSteven Bartlett21:29

       Mm-hmm.

   24. MMMark Manson21:29

       ... and were trying to, to figure it out, were trying to kinda heal ourselves, but there was no other outlet available.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett21:37

       Yeah.

   26. MMMark Manson21:37

       Um, today it's, it's okay f- I think it's way more socially acceptable for guys to be like, "Yeah, I wanna work on myself. I wanna like, you know..."

   27. SBSteven Bartlett21:46

       It's cool now.

   28. MMMark Manson21:46

       "... get in touch with my feelings. Yeah, and be a mature person and, and all this stuff." Yeah. It's a, it's like something people respect. But, uh, back then it, it was still taboo.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett21:55

       And at sp- specifically at that age, for a guy, I'm speaking for myself here, but I, you, you're trying to figure out how to get laid. It feels like this-

   30. MMMark Manson22:05

       Yeah.
4. 22:46 – 27:27

   Rejection and self worth in relationships

   1. SBSteven Bartlett22:47

      but y- did you have, were you in a relationship around that time?

   2. MMMark Manson22:51

      Uh, I had a relationship, yeah, for, for a couple years around that time.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett22:55

      And it, it ended badly? Bad breakup?

   4. MMMark Manson22:59

      Uh, so, so my first relationship pre-pickup-

   5. SBSteven Bartlett23:04

      Right.

   6. MMMark Manson23:04

      ... ended horribly. She ended up cheating on me and leaving me for another guy. Um, and so that was part of, you know, it was my first serious girlfriend, first love.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett23:13

      Mm-hmm.

   8. MMMark Manson23:14

      Um, and, and it ended basically as badly as a relationship can end. Um, so I was heartbroken and I was also angry. And so that kind of also, the pickup stuff, really spoke to that-

   9. SBSteven Bartlett23:26

      Mm.

   10. MMMark Manson23:26

       ... of like, "This is why you had your heart broken. Um, this is what you need to do instead."

   11. SBSteven Bartlett23:32

       How did that impact you? 'Cause we're talking here about like, I think we're talking about feelings of like rejection and self-worth. 'Cause I remember my first relationship that ended really badly. The harm was all me telling myself that I'm not good enough-

   12. MMMark Manson23:46

       Yes.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett23:46

       ... and I'm a scumbag and I'm maybe not pretty enough or smart enough or masculine enough.

   14. MMMark Manson23:51

       Yeah.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett23:51

       And that was all the harm, it was inside here. Um-

   16. MMMark Manson23:54

       Yeah, it's, it's funny because I look back on that episode of my life. I, I think if that happened m- to me today, I would, I would handle it fine. I mean, I'd be upset obviously and hurt, but I would handle it fine. I, I agree with you. You know, for me, when I look back, my understanding of r- relationships, love and relationships at that time, uh, I call it the Disney understanding. You know? It was very naive. It was, uh, you know, Prince Charming on the white horse and, you know, the princess and you live happily ever after, right? Um-It was actually a very unhealthy relationship. She and I were both very, um, just very dysfunctional and, and immature, and we treated each other poorly, uh, but we were in love. And when you're that age and you're naive, like, you think love is the only thing that matters, that you're, you, you're willing to pretty much (laughs) tolerate, like, any terrible treatment towards each other 'cause you're in love. Like, it's the love will figure it out, right? And so, I think a lot of the pain for me, it wasn't just her leaving. Like, that was painful, but it was also having that kind of Disney understanding of love and relationships completely shattered. Like, everything I... 'Cause in my head, I was, like, an amazing boyfriend, and I did everything right, you know? So, to have that blown up in my face, um, and, and come that realization that, like, everything I thought was true is not (laughs) -

   17. SBSteven Bartlett25:30

       Mm.

   18. MMMark Manson25:30

       ... and I have no idea what's true, um, like, that's a really, really hard place to be. And so, that, that was probably at least 50% of the difficulty as well, is just trying to, like, pick up the pieces and figure out, like, "Wait, you know, how, what is love? What is a relationship? How are you supposed to be towards each other. I have no clue." (laughs)

   19. SBSteven Bartlett25:51

       But you have a clue now.

   20. MMMark Manson25:53

       Yeah.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett25:53

       So, tell me.

   22. MMMark Manson25:54

       Yeah, I mean, well, and, and Pick Up was helpful in that regard. I mean, Pick Up gave me a lot of bad... (laughs)

   23. SBSteven Bartlett26:01

       (laughs)

   24. MMMark Manson26:01

       Again, there was a lot of bad advice, but there was a lot of good advice. And I think it's... Look, I, I, I think people who, you know, every once in a while, you meet somebody who, who, like, they marry their high school sweetheart, you know. They meet when they're 14, they get married, and, and they live happily ever. Like, that is, it's very rare, and people who, if that happens to somebody, it's, it's a very fortunate thing. I think for most of us, what we have to do is, is you, you go through a number of relationships that just blow up in your face, and you have to have them blow up in your face to understand what's healthy, what's not, what do you need as, as a person and what do you not need, and also how to give to others. Relationships require a skill set, and you can't develop those skill... Like, if you, if you're, if you come from a background like us, like, you don't grow up being taught that skill set. Like, my parents didn't have that skill set either. So, you have to learn it through trial and error, like you learn anything else. It just so happens that the trial and error of romantic relationships (laughs) is unbelievably painful. (laughs)

   25. SBSteven Bartlett27:19

       (laughs) Yeah, I was gonna say, no one wants to do that.

   26. MMMark Manson27:21

       (laughs)

   27. SBSteven Bartlett27:22

       Like, yeah.

   28. MMMark Manson27:22

       Yeah.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett27:22

       Those lessons no one wants to learn.

   30. MMMark Manson27:24

       Yeah.
5. 27:27 – 34:12

   Characteristics of a good relationship

   1. SBSteven Bartlett27:27

      fundamental characteristics then of a good relationship? I've, I've heard you write about a few of them, things like respect and...

   2. MMMark Manson27:32

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett27:32

      What are those things that you've come to learn now that you wish you knew then?

   4. MMMark Manson27:36

      I think every, you know, every healthy relationship with somebody else, it starts with a healthy relationship with yourself, right? So, if you don't respect yourself, uh, and if you don't value your own thoughts and wellbeing and health, you're never going to be able to set the boundaries, you know. You're, you're just gonna tolerate poor treatment from others because you're gonna think it's justified. So, you know, people tend to have it backwards. They think, like, "If I can just find a great relationship, then I'll feel great about myself." But that, that's just, it's a recipe for disaster. Like, you gotta get straight with yourself, and then once you're straight with yourself, that enables you to have that healthy relationship to be able to share with somebody else. So, like, to, that's paramount, totally key. Like, you gotta get your own shit straight. You gotta, like, whatever baggage you got rummaging around up there, whatever trauma you've got in your background, you gotta start working on it. And then you need to be able to approach the relationship with a certain amount of vulnerability. Like, you need to, you know... Again, most of us, by default, when we find that s- somebody that we're, we're crazy about or who's crazy about us, our, our natural inclination is to start hiding all the ugly stuff. We're like, "Oh, well, if she doesn't know that, like-"

   5. SBSteven Bartlett28:53

      (laughs)

   6. MMMark Manson28:53

      "... I did this or if, if I really, like, kinda think that, you know, then she'll love me." It's like, no, you have to come to the relationship completely open, saying like, "Hey, here's my list of issues," 'cause we all got them. Um, "I'm working on them," 'cause you're working on yourself. You know, "Hopefully we can work on them together," 'cause obviously they're gonna have their issues too. And so, just that open dialogue I- is kinda necessary to even get things started. That's really where the trust and respect comes from because, like, you can't... Like, if you're not sharing every aspect of yourself, then you're never gonna trust the other person. Like, if you're always kinda hiding something, you're never gonna believe that they are, they're actually loving you. They're, they're believing the thing you're portraying to them. And so, you're, you're never gonna trust it. You're like, "Oh, well, yeah, they're into me now, but it's 'cause they don't know about this thing over here."

   7. SBSteven Bartlett29:47

      Mm.

   8. MMMark Manson29:47

      But if you just come 100% with everything on the table, that's where, that's where the trust is, is, you're able to start building the trust and, and actually, you know, start from a healthy place.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett30:00

      So, what you said at the start, the first point-

   10. MMMark Manson30:02

       Mm-hmm.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett30:02

       ... I, I've... I mean, both points were perfect, but the first point really-It made me think about a million people I know that are in the mindset that if they can find a relationship-

   12. MMMark Manson30:12

       Yeah.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett30:12

       ... it will help fix their problems, but they are fundamentally, like, not ready for a relationship. So they go through this, like, vicious negative reinforcing cycle of, like, they weren't ready for a relationship, they got into one-

   14. MMMark Manson30:22

       Yeah.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett30:22

       ... tolerated toxic treatment, smashed their self-esteem even more, which meant that they were e- even less ready for a relationship, but meant that they wanted one more-

   16. MMMark Manson30:30

       Yeah.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett30:30

       ... because they, they wanted to fill the, the crack in their self-esteem with a person. And you see them on this r- this sort of, like, repeated rejection cycle-

   18. MMMark Manson30:39

       Yeah.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett30:39

       ... of these toxic relationships, and it's, like, going downwards 'cause it's smashing their self-esteem more and more each time, which is making them want a relationship more and more, but making them less capable of having one.

   20. MMMark Manson30:49

       (laughs) Yeah.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett30:49

       And you... And I watch it play out on social media. I'm like, "Jenny..." I'm like, "Jenny, stop." I'm like, "Oh, she's got another boyfriend-" (laughs)

   22. MMMark Manson30:55

       (laughs)

   23. SBSteven Bartlett30:55

       Six months later, I'm like, "Oh, no!" It's come-

   24. MMMark Manson30:57

       Oh, no. No.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett30:57

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   26. MMMark Manson30:58

       (laughs)

   27. SBSteven Bartlett30:58

       And, and, but s- 'cause social media, what it's doing is J- Jenny's waking up in the morning and she's seeing Decart- like, Kylie Jenner looks happy on that yacht with Tr- like, with her boyfriend and this... So these happy people in front of me are happy because of their perfect relationships.

   28. MMMark Manson31:11

       Mm-hmm.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett31:12

       And it's that awful spiral. So to say to someone, "Work on yourself."

   30. MMMark Manson31:17

       Yeah.
6. 34:12 – 43:55

   Trying to find purpose

   1. MMMark Manson34:12

   2. SBSteven Bartlett34:12

      (laughs) But you eventually, you come out of it and, um, you know, you write, you write about how you realized that wasn't a fulfilling long-term way to live-

   3. MMMark Manson34:21

      Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett34:22

      ... just, you know, chasing women around nightclubs, trying to pick them up, and ultimately trying to sleep with them, right?

   5. MMMark Manson34:27

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett34:27

      And you'd slept with a lot of women at this point, um, and you, uh, you decided it wasn't the life for you.

   7. MMMark Manson34:33

      No, what, what I started to realize, you know, and, and this realization happened on a number of dimensions around the same time, you know, 'cause, 'cause the business started doing well and I started traveling a lot. You know, there... Generally anything... So in, in, in Subtle Art I talk about, I make a distinction between happiness and highs. And th- this distinction, it was, it was pretty profound for me, because we tend to, we tend to mistake highs for happiness, right? So, uh, meeting, meeting an attractive person or sleeping with an attractive person for the first time, that's a high. Um, making a bunch of money, that's a high. Uh, having, you know, winning an award or an accolade or going to, like, some exotic vacation, putting it on Instagram, getting a ton of likes, like, that's a high. And highs are nice. Like, we all, we all love having highs, and, and we, we do need a certain amount of highs in our life. But highs are not happiness. Happiness is actually kind of the inversion of that in a lot of ways. Happiness is oftentimes actually unpleasant. You know, happiness is i- it's, it's not the check that comes, you know, from the successful product launch. It's the work that goes into that product launch. Happiness is, is the satisfaction, it's... You know, it's not like the peak, the super romantic date. Happiness is being able to, like, sit at home on the couch and not say anything and be completely satisfied. Like, it's... Happiness is, is actually-... often very boring. And so in my 20s, you know, it started with women and parties, and then it kind of went to business. You know, I wanted to grow a big, successful business, and then I did that, and I made a bunch of money. And then I traveled around the world and I lived in all these crazy exotic places and, um, and I started to realize that, like, the- these are just highs. And the thing about highs is that the more you get, the more you need to get that same feeling, right? So if you've never left your home country before, that first trip is like life changing. It's incredibly impactful. But if you've been to 50 countries, going to the 51st is, you're just like, "Ugh, yeah, that flight sucked." Like (laughs) -

   8. SBSteven Bartlett36:57

      (laughs)

   9. MMMark Manson36:57

      ... you know, like you're complaining about the taxi driver.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett36:59

       (laughs)

   11. MMMark Manson36:59

       Like, you're, you know, 'cause it's- you need that much more to get that same hit. Um, and so it becomes a very dangerous thing th- to, to kind of put all of your focus on these things because of that diminishing returns. It- it takes more and more effort to kind of achieve that same sense of satisfaction or, or pleasure. Um, so I really started asking myself like, you know, "What is- what are the things that I'm willing to give up?" What you also don't realize is that you're- you're g- you have to give up a lot for those highs. So like if you do wanna party all the time and sleep with lots of people, you're giving up the opportunity to have a stable relationship with somebody for a long period of time. You're giving up, uh, the comfort that comes with that or the security that comes with that. If you're traveling all the time and living all over the world, like you're giving up the stability of a community, of, uh, knowing your neighbors, of, you know, having- being able to see your friends consistently. Like, it- there's all these subtle unsexy things that you're giving up to chase the highs that you don't really realize you're giving them up until you've given them up for a long time. So I started to realize that and, and kind of like re- like rethink my whole understanding of what happiness and success is in general.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett38:24

       So I'm- I'm keen to get into the details there, but I- again, jumping ahead a little bit, i- is that a ... well, is that an easy thing to do-

   13. MMMark Manson38:34

       (laughs)

   14. SBSteven Bartlett38:34

       ... I guess would be my question? Because- because when you've got that childhood force in you of like the insecurities and the-

   15. MMMark Manson38:39

       Mm-hmm.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett38:39

       ... social acceptance and that's always gonna be in the- in, you know, and it can rear its ugly head if you're- if those kind of insecurities are somewhat triggered as- even as an adult. And it can say, you know, "You need to fit in. You need to get by that thing."

   17. MMMark Manson38:50

       Yeah.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett38:50

       "You need to travel. You need to be more successful." But then you've got this new set of like conscious values you're describing where you're saying, "Well, now I value these things." But then that little demon on your shoulder is saying, "Buy the fucking Lamborghini."

   19. MMMark Manson39:01

       (laughs)

   20. SBSteven Bartlett39:01

       Do you know what I mean? Like how do you ... (laughs)

   21. MMMark Manson39:03

       Well, I- I think a lot of it is, you know, I- I think a lot of value ch- like changing your values, and again, I- I think I say this in Subtle Art, like you can't just sit on the couch and think your way out of your values. Like you need to go live them and then have them fail you really. And for me, that- that- what that looked like, you know, going out and- and kind of living this fantasy life of partying all ar- around the world and hooking up with all these girls, and then just having that fail me and realize that it's actually very empty and, uh, and- and realize after a few years that you're- you're literally not keeping in touch with e- you know, all these people who you thought like, "Oh my God, we're gonna be friends forever." And then three years go by and you realize you're not keeping in touch with any of these people.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett39:52

       Mm-hmm.

   23. MMMark Manson39:53

       And then you go on Facebook and you see like that now they're married and they just had a kid and they're so happy and you're like, "Shit, I'm like still doing the same thing." Like, "I'm still-"

   24. SBSteven Bartlett40:02

       (laughs)

   25. MMMark Manson40:02

       "... drinking on a beach with the same people, um, for like the third year straight. Like something's not right here." Um, and in the case of money, it's like s- I think sometimes people have to buy that Lamborghini and realize it doesn't fix anything. Yeah. (laughs)

   26. SBSteven Bartlett40:20

       (laughs)

   27. MMMark Manson40:20

       (laughs)

   28. SBSteven Bartlett40:20

       That was me. (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

   29. MMMark Manson40:22

       Like it's fun for a week or a month or like you get- you g- get to go show your friends or your parents or whatever, and then they don't really care.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett40:30

       Yeah. You're so- you're so right in what you said earlier as well, linked to that point, is like I remember buying the big house, like seven bedroom house with a tennis court-
7. 43:55 – 47:33

   Why you have to treat people well

   1. SBSteven Bartlett43:55

      One of the things you say is, um, that your one rule for life is each person must never be treated only as a means to some other end, but must also be treated as an end themselves.

   2. MMMark Manson44:04

      Yep.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett44:05

      Please tell me what that means and-

   4. MMMark Manson44:07

      (laughs)

   5. SBSteven Bartlett44:08

      ... hmm.

   6. MMMark Manson44:08

      It's a little ph- it's a little philosophical. It actually comes from, from the philosopher Kant. Um-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett44:14

      Yeah.

   8. MMMark Manson44:14

      It basically means that, like, I think anything that is, is unethical or unhealthy, it's because we're not- we're treating another person as a means to another end, right? So if you're kind of using somebody for their money, or if you're manipulating somebody to try to, like, get a job or a promotion or something, um, or if you're just straight-up, like, stealing from somebody or lying to them, like, in all of those cases, you're tr- you're valuing some external thing, whether it's money or a car or prestige more than the person themselves.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett44:52

      Mm.

   10. MMMark Manson44:53

       And I- to me, it's just kind of, like, when I look at every useful piece of advice, whether in personal development or just how to be a good person-

   11. SBSteven Bartlett45:09

       Hmm.

   12. MMMark Manson45:09

       ... you know, how to be an ethical person, it all comes right back down to that rule. Like, you- everything you do, it needs to be ultimately for the betterment of yourself or others, like making yourself a better person and making other people better too. And anytime you deviate from that, you're either going to get into ethical trouble-

   13. SBSteven Bartlett45:33

       Mm.

   14. MMMark Manson45:33

       ... or you're going to get into toxic relationships.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett45:37

       Like, if I've got a car that I'm selling and I know that it's faulty-

   16. MMMark Manson45:41

       Yeah.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett45:41

       ... but I invite someone over and I say, "This is the best car in the world. Please buy it."

   18. MMMark Manson45:45

       Yep. It's unethical. And you're, you're using that person as a means to an end. In a personal development context, it's like if you're dating somebody not really 'cause you like them, but because you want to impress your friends, then you're using that person as a means to some other end, right?

   19. SBSteven Bartlett45:59

       Mm-hmm.

   20. MMMark Manson45:59

       And it's like that relationship is gonna go south-

   21. SBSteven Bartlett46:02

       Mm-hmm.

   22. MMMark Manson46:02

       ... really fast. Like, it's gonna get ugly. So it's not just ethical, it's practical. You know, Kant meant it, like, said it in ethical terms, but I just kinda realized that it's, like, all good personal development advice is essentially the same thing. It's like-

   23. SBSteven Bartlett46:16

       Mm.

   24. MMMark Manson46:16

       ... treat people well. Like, put- place people, uh, before money, before, you know, accolades, before attention or status.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett46:26

       Mm.

   26. MMMark Manson46:26

       Like, always put people first. And, uh, and everything else kinda takes care of itself.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett46:32

       And that's the long-term game, right?

   28. MMMark Manson46:34

       Yeah.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett46:34

       That's the, the l- it's- 'cause in the short term, you might sell the car.

   30. MMMark Manson46:37

       Yeah.
8. 47:33 – 54:15

   How to figure out what you actually want

   1. SBSteven Bartlett47:33

      w- I was, I was watching your conversation with, with Tom Bilyeu, and I found it really, really interesting and important because one of the things you talk about when we're talking about, you know, deciding what you wanna do with your life, whether it's a business or you're gonna be a pickup artist or whatever it is-

   2. MMMark Manson47:47

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett47:47

      ... is this- the importance of asking the question why. And in the society and culture we live in, especially one that's so driven by comparison where your values are almost being handed to you by Instagram and the Kardashians, like-

   4. MMMark Manson47:57

      Yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett47:57

      ... "This is how- this is what you should value." Like, I almost- I've almost felt- I remember one day, a kid came up to me after I did this, like, big talk on stage, and he said, "I wanna be a public speaker." And he was, like, 17.

   6. MMMark Manson48:08

      (laughs) Yeah.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett48:08

      And you're thinking, "But you've got nothing," like- (laughs)

   8. MMMark Manson48:10

      Yeah. (laughs)

   9. SBSteven Bartlett48:11

      (laughs)

   10. MMMark Manson48:11

       Like, "What are you gonna talk about?" (laughs)

   11. SBSteven Bartlett48:13

       "What are you gonna talk about?" And it's- and really what he's saying is, like, he doesn't wanna be a public speaker. He wants the admiration-

   12. MMMark Manson48:18

       Yes.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett48:18

       ... he thinks public speakers get, probably because he's insecure.

   14. MMMark Manson48:21

       Yep.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett48:21

       And, and...... so many kids, including myself as a young kid, we don't actually know what we want. We have-

   16. MMMark Manson48:29

       Mm-hmm.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett48:29

       ... no fucking clue.

   18. MMMark Manson48:29

       Mm-hmm.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett48:30

       But what we probably want is not to be insecure and get laid-

   20. MMMark Manson48:32

       (laughs)

   21. SBSteven Bartlett48:32

       ... like, at the heart of it. And the pursuit of that-

   22. MMMark Manson48:34

       Right.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett48:34

       ... as you've described, takes us down a dark alley to the wrong place, usually a dead end as well. So, how do I figure out what, what I actually want-

   24. MMMark Manson48:43

       Yeah.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett48:43

       ... in my life, without it being Kardashian noise or Instagram? Like, what does, what, w- what do I want and how do I find out?

   26. MMMark Manson48:49

       I think... So, it's a tricky thing, right? Because again, I think you k- you kinda have to get it r- It's like the relationships. You need to get a couple wrong before you know how to get it right. And I think it's the same in pursuing a career or, or, or finding a purpose in life. Like, you, you need to get it wrong a couple times, because we're experts at tricking ourselves, you know? It's like that kid, he wants admiration, right? But if you ask them in his head, he's like, "No, no, no. I'm just really passionate about communicating with people. I love people." You know? And it's like, we all do that to ourselves. We all, like, we find the, the admirable narrative to kind of explain what we're, what we want in the world. So, I think you need to go through... You need to hit a couple dead ends, you know? It's like, like that kid, he probably should go get on stage and give the speeches and get the applause, and then realize that the applause doesn't solve anything. That he's still, he's still just as insecure as he was before. Because then once, once he does that, then he'll be ready to ask that question of like, "Why do I wanna do thi- Like, why am I really doing this?" I- it's almost a question you have to earn in a lot of ways.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett50:01

       Interesting.

   28. MMMark Manson50:02

       You know? And I feel like a lot of people, they just wanna start there. And it's like, no, no, no. You have to like... 'Cause look, we're all... Like, the Kardashian thing, right? Like, like the reason that stuff is so popular is because w- we're wired to value it. We're wired to want status. We're wired to wanna be beautiful and sexy, and we're wired to wanna impress others. Like, that's never gonna go away. The question is, is like, what do you want once that is kind of removed from the equation? But I think mentally t- to be able to remove it from the equation, you have to try to get some of it first and, and, and see that it doesn't work, if that makes sense.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett50:43

       And what did you come to learn for yourself, um, once you got that stuff, you had the money, you were, you know-

   30. MMMark Manson50:48

       Mm-hmm.
9. 54:15 – 1:02:55

   The values that allow you to be fulfilled

   1. SBSteven Bartlett54:15

      And that's your, that's your sort of, now your professional, um, value, I guess. The, one of the things you value professionally. But in terms of like holistically, when you look at your whole life-

   2. MMMark Manson54:25

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett54:25

      ... what are the things where the values at the heart of Mark that allow him to be...... you know, fulfilled, stable, and, uh, yes, susta- su- su- sustainable, like the-

   4. MMMark Manson54:39

      Sure.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett54:39

      ... sustainable values that you think can last y- because of these values, I will be somewhat, you know, content and fulfilled for the next 30, 40 years holistically?

   6. MMMark Manson54:47

      Gotcha. (laughs) So, I mean, the answer, it's gonna sound really banal, but, like, um, but it's true. Uh, you know, I think probably the biggest one for me is, is honesty. And not just honesty, you know, with the b- uh, with the people in my life. Like, ho- ho- honesty is a standard that I hold kind of everybody, all my friends, and everybody I, I work with too. Uh, but it's also something I hold myself to, uh, being honest with myself. I think generosity is-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett55:16

      Mm-hmm.

   8. MMMark Manson55:16

      ... is one that I've discovered. Again, it's one of those things that when you do make all the money, like, you do make a butt load of money, you learn that it's so much more fun to spend it on other people-

   9. SBSteven Bartlett55:28

      Hm.

   10. MMMark Manson55:28

       ... than it is yourself. Like, it feels so much better. And, and it means a lot more. Like, it's... It creates those really powerful moments that you, you do remember-

   11. SBSteven Bartlett55:38

       Hm.

   12. MMMark Manson55:38

       ... for the rest of your life. Whereas, the Lamborghini, you forget about. (laughs) Like-

   13. SBSteven Bartlett55:43

       Only, only two seats, right? (laughs)

   14. MMMark Manson55:44

       Yeah, yeah, you only got one ass, so... (laughs) Um...

   15. SBSteven Bartlett55:49

       Community's an interesting one that, uh, you talk about s- uh, often-

   16. MMMark Manson55:52

       Yeah.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett55:52

       Having a, a community is something that I disregarded when I was pursuing just becoming rich myself was-

   18. MMMark Manson55:57

       Yes.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett55:57

       ... connection. And, uh, it wasn't... I was actually at, I think, a TED Talk I saw where the TED Talk was tr- was telling me that men who have been in a relationship and had strong relationships live longer, are healthier, are happier.

   20. MMMark Manson56:08

       Yes.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett56:08

       And I was thinking, "What?"

   22. MMMark Manson56:09

       (laughs)

   23. SBSteven Bartlett56:09

       You know, like, do you know, 'cause it was a counter-narrative to my, like, just be, be rich, you know-

   24. MMMark Manson56:14

       Yeah, yeah.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett56:14

       ... thing.

   26. MMMark Manson56:15

       Yeah, I mean, community was one that I had to kind of, like, begrudgingly accept.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett56:22

       Same.

   28. MMMark Manson56:23

       Yeah. Um, 'cause I, I always have been such a loner, right? And, and, and it, I think living abroad for, for so long, it kind of forced me to accept my own loneliness, you know, and, and recogni- and I was... I started achieving a lot of great things in my business, and having all these great experiences and then realizing that, like, nobody I really cared about was around me when it was happening. And so, it, it felt, to a certain degree, it felt kind of pointless. So, I moved back to the States and, and settled down and, and one of m- you know, one of my goals when I moved back to the US was, like, I wanna have a stable group of friends who are kind of on the same path as me. And it's... Yeah, it's one of the best things I did, honestly.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett57:11

       Th- you, you've re- referenced honesty a second ago, which I find really, um, another really interesting one. It's, uh... So when you said honesty, what I understood was, um, being honest about who I am, what I feel, what I think, what I'm passionate about, and, um, stubbornly and un-negotiably protecting my right to be my true self-

   30. MMMark Manson57:35

       Mm-hmm.
10. 1:02:55 – 1:07:43

    Personal responsibility

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:56

       One of the other things that I really loved when I was reading all of your work is this undercurrent of personal responsibility-

    2. MMMark Manson1:03:03

       Yeah.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:03

       ... that runs through everything. And in our society, for whatever reason, people don't like that... Some people-

    4. MMMark Manson1:03:09

       Yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:09

       ... really don't like that idea of personal responsibility that you might be, more so than you believe, responsible for the circumstances of your life. Because for some people, that shines, that turns the mirror on them and says, "You've got no one to blame."

    6. MMMark Manson1:03:22

       Sure.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:22

       It's not the government. It's not this, that, this, your uncle, whatever. It's the decisions you've made.

    8. MMMark Manson1:03:27

       Yeah.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:27

       And for some people, that's a motivating thing. It's liberation. It's, "Oh, I'm in control? Okay." Da, da, da. But I feel like some people would rather there be a puppet master to point to. Um...

    10. MMMark Manson1:03:36

        Yeah.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:37

        So, what's your beliefs and thoughts on personal responsibility, the importance of it? And if you can as well, um, like, why some people hate it?

    12. MMMark Manson1:03:45

        (laughs) I think, uh, to me, responsibility is kind of, like, the, the core under... Like, i- if, if there's no personal responsibility, nothing else is ever gonna work or improve. You know, be- to improve anything, you have to believe you have some sort of power or influence on it. And if you have some sort of power or influence, you're responsible for that power and influence. So if you, if you just reject the idea that you're responsible for s- an area of your life, like i- i- it's like, "I'm not responsible for my shitty relationships, it's all their fault," you're basically disempowering yourself from ever improving them because you're, you're rejecting the idea that you have any influence on them. I think, I think the reason or one reason why people really kinda bristle at the idea is I think we, we tend to mistake responsibility and fault, right? So if, if I w- if I'm like a typical dumb American and walk cr- try to cross a street in London looking the wrong way, uh, and I get hit by a car, you know, it's not my fault that I got hit by a car. But it's still my responsibility. Like, I still need to take, take control of my recovery. I need to, like, take care of my body. I need to decide, you know, what I'm gonna do. Uh, there's a per- there's a responsibility in every moment because in every moment, we're choosing what to do, what to perceive, what to believe, what to focus on. Like, that choice is happening every single moment. And because that is a choice, there's responsibility for that choice, right?

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:32

        Mm-hmm.

    14. MMMark Manson1:05:33

        Um, I use the example in Subtle Art of, like, if somebody left a newborn baby on your doorstep, it's not your fault that there's a baby on your doorstep. But it sure as shit is your responsibility. Like, you have to do something. (laughs) Like, you can't-

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:49

        (laughs)

    16. MMMark Manson1:05:49

        ... you can't just shut the door and be like, "Not my baby." You know? (laughs)

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:53

        (laughs)

    18. MMMark Manson1:05:53

        Like (laughs) , like it just doesn't work that way. And so I think particularly people who have had a lot of bad things happen in their life and, and those things are not their fault, it's very, very difficult for them to, to accept responsibility because, well, for a couple reasons. One is it's once you accept responsibility, it means you have to do something.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:16

        Mm-hmm.

    20. MMMark Manson1:06:16

        You have to change something. You have to change your perspective. You have to change your actions. You have to change your beliefs. And all of those things are very uncomfortable. But I, I think the other thing is that a lot of times people get very attached to their stories, right? So, a terrible thing happens to them, it kinda fucks them up.... and that becomes their identity. Like, that's how they get sympathy from other people. It's how, it's how other people know them. It's the basis of a lot of their relationships, and so they're actually afraid to let it go.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:52

        Mm.

    22. MMMark Manson1:06:52

        Right? Like, it's, it's actually a scary thing to, to let go of that identity. So yeah. It, it's, it's a hard thing to do, but we all have to kind of go through that struggle.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:04

        It's really interesting. It's, uh... Yeah. Uh, it, it's something that I see a lot in, in our, in our culture at the moment, specifically with young people, because I think In- Instagram has, um, (inhales deeply) created more of a community for that kind of, like, "I'm gonna just be honest," that kind of, like, self-pitying-

    24. MMMark Manson1:07:20

        Yeah.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:21

        ... blame, um, and the algorithms are now kind of reinforcing that, and, you know, you'll get more likes if you do the-

    26. MMMark Manson1:07:27

        Yes.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:28

        It's, you know-

    28. MMMark Manson1:07:29

        I, I, I, I heard it referred to as the victimhood Olympics.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:33

        Yes. Exactly.

    30. MMMark Manson1:07:34

        Yeah.
11. 1:07:43 – 1:12:00

    Is happiness a choice?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:43

       self-development, you know, tropes or, like, you know, piece of advice I, I hear often that's linked to that is that happiness is a choice.

    2. MMMark Manson1:07:50

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:50

       How do you feel about that phrase?

    4. MMMark Manson1:07:52

       Uh, I mean, I think it's fundamentally true. Obviously, I think it's a little more complicated than that. Um, but it, it kinda comes back to what I was saying, like, you... I think when people say that, what they're referring to is, like, in every moment, you, you get to choose what to focus on, right?

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:10

       Hmm.

    6. MMMark Manson1:08:10

       So, if a car hits me in the middle of the street here, I can either focus on how unlucky I am and how unfair this is and how it fucked up my press trip to, to the UK, you know, and all this stuff, you know, or I can focus on something else. I can focus on, you know, how fortunate I am to survive, how... You know, and I think this is where it kind of, like, the, the positive thinking stuff was intended to refer to. You know, like, in cl- classic self-help of, like, just think positive. Like, this is what it, what it was trying to say, but it kinda got distorted and turned into this weird delusional thing. But it's basically, like, you know, in every single moment, you are choosing how to see things. And so in that sense, you can always choose in every moment to see things in a way that, that makes you feel better.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:03

       Hmm.

    8. MMMark Manson1:09:04

       And, uh, it's not easy. It's actually really, really hard, but in that sense, happiness can be a choice. Like, it's, it's always within your power. There's no person on Earth that the happiness has been removed from their brain. Like, it's, it's all in there. It's all in you. It's just a question of do you know how to access it, and will you access it? Will you choose to?

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:27

       And one of the things that does feel like a choice linked to that is the expectations that we, we choose for life.

    10. MMMark Manson1:09:33

        Mm-hmm.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:33

        And you write about how expectations can really be a, a curse of happiness.

    12. MMMark Manson1:09:38

        Yeah.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:39

        Um, how d- how do we... So, why are expec- are, are expectations a potential curse, and why are they dangerous, and how do we set better expectations, then?

    14. MMMark Manson1:09:49

        Well, expectations are dangerous because, uh, you know, I think there's a... I forget who came up with it, but I think it's... There's this, like, old equation where it's like happiness equals reality minus expectations.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:01

        Mm-hmm.

    16. MMMark Manson1:10:01

        You know? So, if you have these, like, huge, unreasonable expectations for yourself, you're always gonna be disappointed. But then, it's a double-edged sword, because if you have, like, tiny expectations for yourself, then you're not gonna try to do anything. So, like, there, there's this weird balance where... I mean, I j- I prefer kind of, like, more of the Buddhist take, which is, like, just don't have expectations. Like, just don't expect anything. Like, be-

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:21

        Is that possible?

    18. MMMark Manson1:10:23

        No, but-

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:24

        (laughs)

    20. MMMark Manson1:10:25

        ... but it's kinda like honesty, right? Like, it's, it's... You, you never completely get there, but you should still try. And, um, it's, and it's particularly useful, I find, in, in, in managing anxiety. You know, 'cause anxiety tends to come from, uh, just either irrational or outsized expectations, right? So, it's like you're about to go on stage and talk to a bunch of people, and your expectation is, like, "I'm gonna bomb. I'm gonna look like a fool. Like, people are gonna laugh at me," and it's because of that expectation that you start feeling a lot of anxiety, start feeling terrible. Whereas if you just kind of take the expectation of, of, you know, "This is just another moment. You know, it's, it's gonna happen. People are probably not gonna remember it. Like, it just is. It's gonna be whatever it's gonna be," um, it can eliminate a lot of that. I do that with, with my book launches, 'cause obviou- like any author, I'm like... I probably was probably the same with you. Like, you, you know that when your book is coming out, like, you're, like, crippled on the floor, like, "Everybody's gonna hate me."

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:32

        Hmm.

    22. MMMark Manson1:11:32

        "They're all gonna laugh at me," you know? And it's... To me, it just helps to just remove any assumption of, like, what it's gonna be, you know? "Don't assume it's gonna do well, but don't assume it's gonna do poorly." Like, it's, it's gonna do what it's gonna do, and you're gonna be fine either way, so... (laughs)

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:48

        Even though you know that, do you still feel-

    24. MMMark Manson1:11:52

        Of course. (laughs)

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:53

        (laughs)

    26. MMMark Manson1:11:55

        Of course. Of course. Like, you never... The anxiety never goes away, but it,

12. 1:12:00 – 1:25:30

    Mental health

    1. MMMark Manson1:12:00

       it gets managed, right?

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:01

       Do you, do you suffer with anxiety?

    3. MMMark Manson1:12:03

       Uh, yeah. For sure.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:04

       And how long have you suffered with it for?

    5. MMMark Manson1:12:06

       I mean, since forever. I mean, I am human. (laughs)

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:10

       Yeah. So there's kind o- It's kind of like a s- I, I, I see it... Well, I see it as a spectrum almost. There's like... On one end of it, it might be... And I'm... If I sound super naive here, it's 'cause I am. Like, um, there might be f- nervousness bef- you know, pre-, pre-performance anxiety-

    7. MMMark Manson1:12:25

       Mm-hmm.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:25

       ... and then there's, like, the daily struggle with anxiety, which can be, like, debilitating-

    9. MMMark Manson1:12:30

       Yeah.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:30

        ... I guess.

    11. MMMark Manson1:12:32

        Yeah. I, I think the way most people look at emotions, they look at emotions in terms of intensity, and I, I think that's not the right way to look at it.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:40

        Mm-hmm.

    13. MMMark Manson1:12:40

        Like, it's...... everybody feels anxiety. It doesn't matter, like the most confident person on the planet feels anxiety. It's what's different between somebody who seems very confident and somebody who seems debi- debilitated is that the person who seems confident is managing their anxiety very well. They're, they're channeling their anxiety very effectively into their actions and behaviors. Whereas the person who's debilitated by it is not. So i- in that sense, I, I see managing emotions i- it's like a skill, right? And, and, and I think this, we all kind of know this. Like, we all, we all know somebody who's, like, very good at managing their anger, or somebody who's very good at managing their anxiety. And we all probably know somebody who's very bad at managing their anger-

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:25

        Mm-hmm.

    15. MMMark Manson1:13:26

        ... somebody who's very bad at managing their anxiety or managing their sadness. And so, I think it's, you know, s- we each kind of have, like, a natural talent for some emotions-

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:34

        Mm-hmm.

    17. MMMark Manson1:13:35

        ... and not others. And so, i- i- it's something we kind of have to learn. Like, you, you learn to feel the anxiety and then use that energy, you know, kind of adopt the right mindsets and beliefs around it, and then use that energy in a way that's effective.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:51

        Mm-hmm. You, you write about, you know, how, especially in Everything is Fucked, a book about hope, um, how mental health ailments are somewhat increasing in the world. It appears, it appears when they ... Some people say that it's because we're, like, you know, diagnosing-

    19. MMMark Manson1:14:08

        Over-diagnosing.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:08

        ... yeah, whatever. But, um, I would assert, if I was to be- to guess, and based on the information that I've seen, and I'm a big, um, big, h- heavily involved in a company called Atai Life Sciences, which is in the psychedelic space, so we look at schizophrenia and depression and-

    21. MMMark Manson1:14:22

        Mm-hmm.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:22

        ... anxiety. Um, it does appear to be increasing.

    23. MMMark Manson1:14:26

        Yeah.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:26

        People do appears to be get- getting more anxious. And my general belief, which is not backed by anything is that, how could we not be in a world that, where there's so much stimulation?

    25. MMMark Manson1:14:34

        Yeah.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:34

        If you go back to the, you know, our tribal, tribal roots versus today, it's, it's just constant. So anxiety and thinking about the future and depression and these things are probably increasing. Um, you talk about how a lack of something to strive for-

    27. MMMark Manson1:14:48

        Mm-hmm.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:48

        ... is at the root cause of a lot of this, and how as life has got more comfortable-

    29. MMMark Manson1:14:54

        Mm-hmm.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:54

        ... um, we've got into trouble-

Episode duration: 1:34:08