The Subtle Art Of Not Giving A F*ck: Mark Manson | E111

Mark Manson 0:00 I always felt like an outcast. I was bullied. My big goal in life was like, I want to be a best-selling author. And then it happens, and it really fucked with me. (dramatic music) We're wired to want status. We're wired to want to be beautiful and sexy and to want to impress others. Like, that's never going to go away. The question is, is like, what do you want once that is kind of removed from the equation? (dramatic music) You can always choose in every moment to see things in a way that, that makes you feel better. It's not easy. It's actually really, really hard, but in that sense, happiness can be a choice. It's just a question of do you know how to access it? (music)

Steven Bartlett 0:43 Mark Manson, the author of one of the best-selling self-development books of the decade, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck. I read this book many, many years ago, and I learned so much from it. So when they told me that Mark Manson was in London, we got in touch with him quickly, and I think this conversation is going to prove why. He is one of the most wise, honest, open individuals I have ever met, and one of the most remarkable things he says in this conversation was this smash hit book, which has sold more than 10 million copies, and I know you've seen everywhere, when that became a success, he lost orientation in his life. Mark's complete story, the story you've probably never heard, is immense. He used to be a pickup artist. He then became an entrepreneur, which led him to become a blogger, which led him to become an author, and he draws on all of those experiences in one of the most self-aware ways I've ever seen on this podcast to deliver actionable insights to live a better life. He's a guest that you requested time and time again, and I'm so glad you did. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (music)

Steven Bartlett 2:07 Mark, take me back to Austin, Texas in the 1980s-ish time when you were born.

Mark Manson 2:16 Oh, God. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 2:17 What was life l- what, what was life like for you?

Mark Manson 2:21 I mean, when I was really young, it was, it was nice. You know, so I grew, I grew up, I had a very kind of conventional suburban American childhood, um, especially when I was younger. You know, so, um, I had the house with the yard and all the kids on the street and, you know, playing soccer and, or football or whatever. Um, so, so that was nice. I think, um, where things started to kind of go off the rails, so to speak, um, when, you know, when you start hitting that age, 11, 12, 13, and you s- you start, your brain develops a little more and you, you start becoming a little bit more aware of, um, norms, and, and culture, and people's expectations of you, and things like that. Um, I grew up in a very, I grew up in the American South, um, so I grew up very religious, very conservative, uh, and I'm neither of those things. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 3:24 (laughs)

Mark Manson 3:25 So, um, starting around that time, I started kind of feeling like an oddball, you know?

Steven Bartlett 3:30 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 3:31 Um, I was really into art and music and, uh, books. I read all the time, and, you know, tho- those values just weren't really respected a whole lot where I, where I came from. In fact, they were viewed as suspect.

Steven Bartlett 3:48 I was gonna say, on the playground, that doesn't sound like it would be th- uh, conducive with fitting in and-

Mark Manson 3:53 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 3:53 ... being part of the crew.

Mark Manson 3:55 Yeah, and i- it's, um... Yeah, I mean, i- it's a very, it was a very conformist culture, but then there's also, there's a weird thing in the American South that, um, people are very sensitive to, to kind of like, you know, "You think you're better than me? You think you're smarter, you think you're smart? You think you're, like, so good 'cause you read this book and, you know, got an A on that test or whatever?" So there's like a weird, like it's actually very toxic, but like there's kind of a weird judgment that happens if you're not doing the same thing the same way as everybody else. So yeah, I, I, I, I started to kind of become like the nerd slash, uh, like loner kid. Um, and this was the '90s, so of course I wore, like, band T-shirts and, and dressed in all black, and like-

Steven Bartlett 4:46 That's all back in now. (laughs)

Mark Manson 4:47 Yeah, I know, right? (laughs) Thank God.

Steven Bartlett 4:50 My timing.

Mark Manson 4:51 I finally know what's going on again.

Steven Bartlett 4:53 (laughs)

Mark Manson 4:53 I'm old enough to know what's going on again. Um, so yeah, it was, it was a weird adolescence. It was, uh, it wasn't a, it wasn't a ton of fun. Um, and I think by the time I was like 14 or 15, I was just like, "I gotta get outta here. I gotta, I, like, I gotta get to one of the coasts," and-

Steven Bartlett 5:10 Were you bullied in school?

Mark Manson 5:12 A little bit. A little bit. Um, not like to a dramatic extent, but, um, yeah, definitely some like, shitty experiences, for sure.

Steven Bartlett 5:24 Did you have a lot of friends back then in school?

Mark Manson 5:27 Um, no. No, I, I had a handful of like very, very close friends. You know, other, other guys who were weirdos and loners-

Steven Bartlett 5:36 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 5:36 ... and into music, and-

Steven Bartlett 5:37 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 5:38 ... stuff like that.

Steven Bartlett 5:39 And your parental dynamics, they were, your parents, I read that they got divorced when you were around that age as well?

Mark Manson 5:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 5:44 Which was a-

Mark Manson 5:45 Yeah. Yeah, I m- I mean, my, my parents are really good people, but, um, I would describe it now as they were doing the best they could with what they knew, but their knowledge wasn't, uh-... I guess, sufficient to be, like-

Steven Bartlett 6:02 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 6:02 ... fully functional emotionally.

Steven Bartlett 6:04 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 6:04 You know, they came from emotionally dysfunctional families. So, in their head, like, giving 100%, like, they're giving 100%, but really, their 100% is actually kind of, like, you know, 40, 50% of what the family needed to, like, function well.

Steven Bartlett 6:20 Is that psychologically or financially? Do you mean, like, in terms of, like, affection, care, lessons?

Mark Manson 6:26 It was primarily emotionally. So, like, financially, we were fine. My, my dad's always been, like, very successful. Um, but it was, it was, it was mostly emotionally. Right? So, um, I'm trying to think of an example here. You know, so, like, kind of this idea of, you know, my parents were the opposite of overbearing. They were, like, probably too hands-off. Right? So i- it was, like, one of those things, like, i- if I had a big event at school or a, a big moment, um, or if, like, the girl I liked was mean to me or some- you know, it's like I could never go to my mom or dad... Like, if I tried to go to my mom or dad and kind of, like, express these things, they'd just kind of look at me, like, "Why are you telling me this?" You know? (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 7:10 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark Manson 7:10 So, um, it was a very stoic and distant, and I use the word stoic not in the f- not in stoicism, but, like, very kind of cold and distant household. Like, we didn't talk much, and we definitely didn't talk about, uh, feelings or insecurities or stuff that me and my brother were going through. It was just kind of like...

Steven Bartlett 7:34 I can relate to that.

Mark Manson 7:35 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 7:36 Yeah, I never, I never had... I still think to this day, or maybe actually in the last year, but, like, my whole childhood, I'd... My mom and dad had no idea what I was doing with my life. No idea who I was-

Mark Manson 7:46 Horrible.

Steven Bartlett 7:46 ... dating, feeling, nothing.

Mark Manson 7:47 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 7:47 My dad, like, we didn't, I don't think we had a conversation about anything to do with school, feelings, you know. So you kind of i- you're, like, left to your own devices and the internet-

Mark Manson 7:57 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 7:57 ... to figure this stuff out, right? Which isn't the best source when you're like... It's like solving, solving the problem with the same brain that got you into it. It's not always the best-

Mark Manson 8:05 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 8:05 ... solution. When you zoom out on that period of your life and you think, "Wh- what kind of, like, good or bad foundations were laid for the rest of my life?" What, what are those lessons or foundations that were like... For me, it was like insecurity, and I thought money would be everything, and I thought validation-

Mark Manson 8:20 Interesting.

Steven Bartlett 8:20 ... from women would be everything. So my f- you know. But...

Mark Manson 8:24 I think if there's one thing my, my family got right when I was young, i- it was money. So I grew up in, with wealth.

Steven Bartlett 8:31 Ah, okay.

Mark Manson 8:32 You know. My, my father owns, uh, a plastics business. He's been very successful. So, I mean, we, we had the big house and the pool and the nice cars and everything. And it was interesting actually because his business really started t- to take off probably when I was, like, eight or nine years old. And so, we went from kind of like a, I'd say like a upper middle class when I w- and then suddenly when I'm nine, it's like everything gets upgraded.

Steven Bartlett 9:03 (laughs)

Mark Manson 9:03 You know, we've got BMWs. We've got, uh, you know, we're flying first class. Like, you know, so we st- we get all the stuff.

Steven Bartlett 9:11 Right.

Mark Manson 9:11 Right? And it, it's interesting because that's pretty much exactly the time that my parents' marriage unraveled, and, you know, the family kind of fell apart. So, I learned at a very young age that money doesn't solve it. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 9:28 (laughs) Ah.

Mark Manson 9:29 Like, whatever your problem is-

Steven Bartlett 9:31 Yeah.

Mark Manson 9:31 ... you know, u- unless your problem is you're hungry, like, money is not gonna fix it.

Steven Bartlett 9:35 Oh, wow.

Mark Manson 9:35 So, I was very blessed in that regard, that I got to learn that lesson very early. Um, so th- that, you know, we've all, we've all got that, that, that hole in us that we try to fill with something. Um, and so money was never that for me. For me, it was more I think because I was, I always felt like an outcast, um, was bullied to a certain extent, uh, rejected by, like, every girl I ever liked-

Steven Bartlett 10:03 Mm.

Mark Manson 10:03 ... for me, it was much more social, you know?

Steven Bartlett 10:04 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 10:05 So, it's like I had this desperate need to be liked, um, to be, like, the cool guy at the party-

Steven Bartlett 10:13 Mm.

Mark Manson 10:13 ... to have all the girlfriends. Uh, like, that was my, my big weakness.

Steven Bartlett 10:19 So, you go off to college.

Mark Manson 10:20 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 10:21 What'd you study? How does that go for you in terms of social interactions?

Mark Manson 10:25 So, one of the best things I ever did, you know, I, I went, I went to school in Boston.

Steven Bartlett 10:29 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 10:29 And Boston's a completely different culture and environment, um, and it, it's... It was wonderful for me because it, it suddenly, it's like the things I care about are now cared about by the people around me as well. So, it's like they like that you're smart, and they like that you've read all these books, and they, they like that you're into, like, cool music or, like, some obscure band. So, i- it was very socially transformative. Like, I, I, I went from kind of being, like, m- the weirdo nerdy guy to, to, like, having tons of friends and going to a bunch of parties and-

Steven Bartlett 11:05 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 11:05 ... and, and having a really good social life. And so for me, that was wonderful. It built a lot of confidence. But, of course, like any insecurity, I overdid it. Um, so I was that guy who was literally partying five, six nights a week. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 11:20 (laughs)

Mark Manson 11:21 You know, like, for, like, year after year-

Steven Bartlett 11:23 Really?

Mark Manson 11:23 ... after year. You know, I was, I was always at the party.

Steven Bartlett 11:27 And did that compromise your academic (laughs) ambitions? Or...

Mark Manson 11:31 Uh, a little bit. Um, you know, I, I kind of, I guess I didn't do this consciously, but I, I kind of made the calculus in my head that, like, like, the most important thing about college is that you, is that you finish. You know? Right?

Steven Bartlett 11:44 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 11:44 It's like no job interview's actually gonna ask you what you go- what grade you got on your history exam your second year. Uh, all they care is that you, you have-

Steven Bartlett 11:55 Exactly.

Mark Manson 11:55 ... (laughs) you have the degree. So, in my head, I'm like, "As long as I get the degree, as long as, like, I'm safe in terms of, like, actually finishing-"

Steven Bartlett 12:02 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 12:02 "... um, I'm okay." So, I, I could kind of manage okay grades-

Steven Bartlett 12:08 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 12:09 ... while-... you know, drinking every night. Um, (laughs) so I, I, I made it work. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 12:16 And out of college, your first job, I, I heard you described it as kind of nightmarish and like a finance jobby, job-

Mark Manson 12:22 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 12:23 ... that you didn't like.

Mark Manson 12:24 (clicks tongue) So I've had, I've had one r- real job, uh, in my life.

Steven Bartlett 12:29 Wow.

Mark Manson 12:29 Um, I went into finance... Uh, so I, I used to play a lot of poker in school. And, uh, and all the guys I played poker with were gonna go into finance. They wanted to work on Wall Street and do all this stuff. And I was like, "Cool, like, I'll do that." You know? (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 12:48 (laughs)

Mark Manson 12:48 That just seemed, like, kind of like the logical next step. And, um, I, I got hired at an investment bank in Boston, and I went to work. And I remember it was like, it was 10:00 AM on the first day. I was doing training, and it was 10:00 AM on the first day. I'd been there for, like, m- maybe two hours, two and a half hours. And I remember thinking to myself, "How long do I have to stay here before it's, like, okay to quit?" (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 13:16 (laughs) On the first day?

Mark Manson 13:17 On my first day. And then my second thought was, "This is a really bad sign," you know? It's like, if I'm having this thought on my first day, this is a terrible sign. So I lasted about six weeks.

Steven Bartlett 13:29 Wow. That was your first and only-

Mark Manson 13:32 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 13:32 ... job?

Mark Manson 13:34 Yeah. I, um... Yeah, I mean, I, it's, I... The corporate world and I didn't really fit. And, and I've since learned that that particular company was kind of notorious in, in the finance world for, for having, like, a, a soul-destroying culture. Um, but it was funny 'cause I w- you know, I was basically just like a, a data monkey. You know, I was entry level, so, like, I'm just punching numbers in the spreadsheets and stuff all day. And, uh, and there's this kinda awkward gap in the US markets. Like, there's, like, an hour or two between when one market closes, when, like, the S&P closes and then the NASDAQ closes-

Steven Bartlett 14:16 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 14:16 ... like an hour, hour and a half later. And so you'd always have this, like, awkward hour where there was... you were kind of just waiting around, waiting for the next market to close. So I'd bring books, you know. I'm, I'm a book nerd. So I'd sit there, I'd have a stack of books on my desk, and I'd sit there and I'd read books in that hour. And, uh, I remember my boss came by and he's like, "You can't do that." And I was like, "What do you mean? I mean, these are like finance books too, right?"

Steven Bartlett 14:39 Really?

Mark Manson 14:39 Like, I'm like... Yeah, and he's like, "You can't do that." And I was, I was like, "Why not?" He's like, "You need to be working on something." And I was like, "Well, there's nothing to work on. Like, this is-"

Steven Bartlett 14:48 Hmm.

Mark Manson 14:48 "We're waiting for the market to close." And, and he's like, "Yeah, but you can't, you can't be seen doing that." Like, "That's... Y- you, you gotta be... keep yourself busy." I was like, "What the fuck, man?" Like, I remember too, uh, my first week there, 'cause I had messed around with like some, some computer coding and stuff in college. And, and I noticed that, like, a lot of the data entry that we were doing, you could easily program a script to do it automatically, right? It's like probably an hour or two of my day is, like, not even necessary. And so I remember I went to my boss, and I was like, I was like, "Hey, you, you realize, like, we can get a script to do this, right?" Like, "I could probably, you know, spend a couple of days, figure out, do some research, get it to work." And he was like, "No, no, go back and put your numbers in." You know? Like, he-

Steven Bartlett 15:36 (laughs)

Mark Manson 15:36 ... he had no interest whatsoever. You know, in my head, I'm like, "I got this great idea. My boss is gonna be so impressed. I'm gonna, like, you know, get moved up or whatever." And I, I just got shot down. And so it was just very clear, like, um... I don't know, it just wasn't-

Steven Bartlett 15:52 There's a cultural issue there, though, isn't it? Because-

Mark Manson 15:54 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 15:54 ... your boss has probably got that from somewhere above where he doesn't really give a fuck about-

Mark Manson 15:58 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 15:58 ... optimizing the efficiency of this company. He just cares about getting his check, and then-

Mark Manson 16:02 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 16:02 ... it probably trickles up the line.

Mark Manson 16:04 Yeah. Yeah, and I, I remember kinda, like, the... So one of, one of the books I read at the time was Tim Ferriss's 4-Hour Workweek. And, uh, that book was life-changing for me. But it's funny, I've always had a little bit... I've always given Tim a little bit of shit about it because it was, it was a bit of a double-edged sword. Because the 4-Hour Workweek makes it sound so easy that it, it kinda, like, I remember at the time, I'm like, "Wow, this is... I could do that." Like, "I'll do that next week." Like, "Why, why am I still here?" You know? So it, it s- he made it sound so easy that it kinda gave me the courage to quit.

Steven Bartlett 16:40 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 16:41 Um, but then, of course, after I quit and I actually s- started to try to build a business online (laughs) and realized how insanely hard it is-

Steven Bartlett 16:49 (laughs)

Mark Manson 16:49 ... I became a little bit bitter. I'm like, "Damn you, Tim Ferriss."

Steven Bartlett 16:51 (laughs)

Mark Manson 16:51 "This is not easy." Like, (laughs) -

Steven Bartlett 16:53 (laughs)

Mark Manson 16:53 ... "I'm never gonna work four hours." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 16:55 Yeah, yeah. What was that business you tried to build after you quit?

Mark Manson 16:59 So I, uh, I originally tried to create some e-commerce businesses.

Steven Bartlett 17:04 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 17:04 Um, and s- try to... basically kind of your classic spammy SEO blogs, uh, with affiliate links and stuff like that. And it was, it was really... Like, the whole goal was, like, just get to 2K a month, and then we're going to Argentina. Like, that was-

Steven Bartlett 17:24 (laughs)

Mark Manson 17:24 That was the... (laughs) And then we're gonna party until our-

Steven Bartlett 17:27 Oh, wow.

Mark Manson 17:28 ... our, like, face falls off. And that, that was the whole goal at the time. I think I was 22 or 23. And, um, and it's funny because back then, this is, like, 2008, 2009. Back then, uh, the way you got traffic to your... Like, blogging was new and, and kinda like the big new thing. And, uh, so if you wanted traffic to your website to sell your stuff, you needed a blog.

Steven Bartlett 17:52 Yeah.

Mark Manson 17:52 And so I started my blogs as a way to just get traffic to, like, sell this stuff. And so one of the websites I, I was doing was, was a dating advice. And I was promoting a bunch of dating e-books written by a bunch of people. Um, and, and that, that one started to take off. That one-

Steven Bartlett 18:11 Hmm.

Mark Manson 18:11 ... started to develop, like, a really large audience. And so after (laughs) about a year or two, I realized, I'm like, "I kinda suck at this e-commerce thing, but the blogging is going really well." So...

Steven Bartlett 18:21 And this

Steven Bartlett 18:22 kinda started your, your...... the journey into the pickup artistry world, right?

Mark Manson 18:26 Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:26 So, tell me about that, 'cause, um, we- before we started recording, I shared a secret that I've never shared before, which is that I also found myself fall into the pickup artistry world when I was in my early 20s-

Mark Manson 18:37 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 18:37 ... because of Neil Strauss and then Mystery and then every other book that I read and every other vi- video and documentary and YouTube video that I c- consumed and torrent that I downloaded-

Mark Manson 18:45 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 18:45 ... (laughs) and forum that I s- scraped. Um, but when I, when I read that in your story, I found that really, really fascinating because, um, I suspected the incentives and the appeal of that world were probably quite similar to me in the sense of me being quite insecure and, um, seeking, uh, uh, w- well, yeah, seeking validation from women maybe.

Mark Manson 19:06 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 19:06 So, tell me about your journey into pickup artistry.

Mark Manson 19:09 I took to it pretty, pretty hard and pretty quickly. I think it, it really scratched that, that itch, uh, that, of that insecurity I had, you know, f- from my childhood. Um, you know, looking back on, on the pickup stuff, i- it's really interesting and it, and it's funny because it's... (laughs) Over the years, I've met so many talented and successful guys. Like, when you told me that you were into it, it, I kinda, I wasn't even surprised. Like, I've met so many talented, successful guys in the last five, 10 years who are like, "Oh, yeah, I was, I wa- I was, I was into that shit too." You know? It's like, we kinda like say it under our breath.

Steven Bartlett 19:47 (laughs)

Mark Manson 19:47 And I think it, it... Here's my theory about what, what that whole thing was and why it happened. When I look back in the 2000s, self-help and personal development was still very different back then. Like, it wasn't socially acceptable for men to kind of get into, you know, feelings and trauma and, and healing and recovery and all this stuff. Like, it was still, it was still something kinda shameful. Like, your, your, your buddies would make fun of you for it if they found out that you were...

Steven Bartlett 20:23 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 20:23 Like, if you went out and read, um, you know, like a Louise Hay book or a, you know, like, I'm Okay, You're Okay, like if, if like your buddy caught you with one of those books in your bedroom, he'd start ripping on you for it. And s- and there was something about making it about dating, sex and dating, that made it socially okay.

Steven Bartlett 20:46 Mm.

Mark Manson 20:46 Like it's, it's, now it's like a cool thing to do. But really what it was, is it was just self-help in disguise. Like most of it, you know, for every pickup line or whatever there was, like there were, there was really useful advice about, uh, you know, social skills, self-esteem, uh, confidence, um, taking care of yourself, you know, hygiene, thing-

Steven Bartlett 21:11 100%.

Mark Manson 21:11 ... grooming, you know?

Steven Bartlett 21:12 Yeah.

Mark Manson 21:12 And, and it, so there was like so much good life advice there, and then... (laughs) But there was also so much bad advice there too.

Steven Bartlett 21:19 Yeah.

Mark Manson 21:19 So, it was this very mixed bag, but I think it was just a lot of guys like you and me who were, were damaged essentially-

Steven Bartlett 21:29 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 21:29 ... and were trying to, to figure it out, were trying to kinda heal ourselves, but there was no other outlet available.

Steven Bartlett 21:37 Yeah.

Mark Manson 21:37 Um, today it's, it's okay f- I think it's way more socially acceptable for guys to be like, "Yeah, I wanna work on myself. I wanna like, you know..."

Steven Bartlett 21:46 It's cool now.

Mark Manson 21:46 "... get in touch with my feelings. Yeah, and be a mature person and, and all this stuff." Yeah. It's a, it's like something people respect. But, uh, back then it, it was still taboo.

Steven Bartlett 21:55 And at sp- specifically at that age, for a guy, I'm speaking for myself here, but I, you, you're trying to figure out how to get laid. It feels like this-

Mark Manson 22:05 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 22:05 ... this, this quest in which no one has ever provided you with the blueprint or the roadmap.

Mark Manson 22:09 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 22:09 And then someone whispers in your ear at some point that there's like a code?

Mark Manson 22:13 Yeah. (laughs) Is that right? (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 22:15 (laughs) Like a, like a simple solution to this complex problem.

Mark Manson 22:17 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 22:18 And, and then you read it and you get into it and it appears to work. And you see men just like you having success in that-

Mark Manson 22:24 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 22:24 ... because they've kind of learnt the code or the, the, the, you know, they've been, they've learnt the, the instruction manual. So, it feels like it solves this tremendous problem, but you're totally right, it actually helps you resolve a ton of things from the playground about self-esteem and-

Mark Manson 22:35 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 22:36 "...Why did that guy always get the girls and I didn't?"

Mark Manson 22:38 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 22:38 Right? Like the, the natural and-

Mark Manson 22:40 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 22:40 And, and then, and then things just started to make sense and that made it really sticky and addictive for me. Um,

Steven Bartlett 22:47 but y- did you have, were you in a relationship around that time?

Mark Manson 22:51 Uh, I had a relationship, yeah, for, for a couple years around that time.

Steven Bartlett 22:55 And it, it ended badly? Bad breakup?

Mark Manson 22:59 Uh, so, so my first relationship pre-pickup-

Steven Bartlett 23:04 Right.

Mark Manson 23:04 ... ended horribly. She ended up cheating on me and leaving me for another guy. Um, and so that was part of, you know, it was my first serious girlfriend, first love.

Steven Bartlett 23:13 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 23:14 Um, and, and it ended basically as badly as a relationship can end. Um, so I was heartbroken and I was also angry. And so that kind of also, the pickup stuff, really spoke to that-

Steven Bartlett 23:26 Mm.

Mark Manson 23:26 ... of like, "This is why you had your heart broken. Um, this is what you need to do instead."

Steven Bartlett 23:32 How did that impact you? 'Cause we're talking here about like, I think we're talking about feelings of like rejection and self-worth. 'Cause I remember my first relationship that ended really badly. The harm was all me telling myself that I'm not good enough-

Mark Manson 23:46 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 23:46 ... and I'm a scumbag and I'm maybe not pretty enough or smart enough or masculine enough.

Mark Manson 23:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 23:51 And that was all the harm, it was inside here. Um-

Mark Manson 23:54 Yeah, it's, it's funny because I look back on that episode of my life. I, I think if that happened m- to me today, I would, I would handle it fine. I mean, I'd be upset obviously and hurt, but I would handle it fine. I, I agree with you. You know, for me, when I look back, my understanding of r- relationships, love and relationships at that time, uh, I call it the Disney understanding. You know? It was very naive. It was, uh, you know, Prince Charming on the white horse and, you know, the princess and you live happily ever after, right? Um-It was actually a very unhealthy relationship. She and I were both very, um, just very dysfunctional and, and immature, and we treated each other poorly, uh, but we were in love. And when you're that age and you're naive, like, you think love is the only thing that matters, that you're, you, you're willing to pretty much (laughs) tolerate, like, any terrible treatment towards each other 'cause you're in love. Like, it's the love will figure it out, right? And so, I think a lot of the pain for me, it wasn't just her leaving. Like, that was painful, but it was also having that kind of Disney understanding of love and relationships completely shattered. Like, everything I... 'Cause in my head, I was, like, an amazing boyfriend, and I did everything right, you know? So, to have that blown up in my face, um, and, and come that realization that, like, everything I thought was true is not (laughs) -

Steven Bartlett 25:30 Mm.

Mark Manson 25:30 ... and I have no idea what's true, um, like, that's a really, really hard place to be. And so, that, that was probably at least 50% of the difficulty as well, is just trying to, like, pick up the pieces and figure out, like, "Wait, you know, how, what is love? What is a relationship? How are you supposed to be towards each other. I have no clue." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 25:51 But you have a clue now.

Mark Manson 25:53 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 25:53 So, tell me.

Mark Manson 25:54 Yeah, I mean, well, and, and Pick Up was helpful in that regard. I mean, Pick Up gave me a lot of bad... (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 26:01 (laughs)

Mark Manson 26:01 Again, there was a lot of bad advice, but there was a lot of good advice. And I think it's... Look, I, I, I think people who, you know, every once in a while, you meet somebody who, who, like, they marry their high school sweetheart, you know. They meet when they're 14, they get married, and, and they live happily ever. Like, that is, it's very rare, and people who, if that happens to somebody, it's, it's a very fortunate thing. I think for most of us, what we have to do is, is you, you go through a number of relationships that just blow up in your face, and you have to have them blow up in your face to understand what's healthy, what's not, what do you need as, as a person and what do you not need, and also how to give to others. Relationships require a skill set, and you can't develop those skill... Like, if you, if you're, if you come from a background like us, like, you don't grow up being taught that skill set. Like, my parents didn't have that skill set either. So, you have to learn it through trial and error, like you learn anything else. It just so happens that the trial and error of romantic relationships (laughs) is unbelievably painful. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 27:19 (laughs) Yeah, I was gonna say, no one wants to do that.

Mark Manson 27:21 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 27:22 Like, yeah.

Mark Manson 27:22 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:22 Those lessons no one wants to learn.

Mark Manson 27:24 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:25 So, what are, what are those, those, um,

Steven Bartlett 27:27 fundamental characteristics then of a good relationship? I've, I've heard you write about a few of them, things like respect and...

Mark Manson 27:32 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:32 What are those things that you've come to learn now that you wish you knew then?

Mark Manson 27:36 I think every, you know, every healthy relationship with somebody else, it starts with a healthy relationship with yourself, right? So, if you don't respect yourself, uh, and if you don't value your own thoughts and wellbeing and health, you're never going to be able to set the boundaries, you know. You're, you're just gonna tolerate poor treatment from others because you're gonna think it's justified. So, you know, people tend to have it backwards. They think, like, "If I can just find a great relationship, then I'll feel great about myself." But that, that's just, it's a recipe for disaster. Like, you gotta get straight with yourself, and then once you're straight with yourself, that enables you to have that healthy relationship to be able to share with somebody else. So, like, to, that's paramount, totally key. Like, you gotta get your own shit straight. You gotta, like, whatever baggage you got rummaging around up there, whatever trauma you've got in your background, you gotta start working on it. And then you need to be able to approach the relationship with a certain amount of vulnerability. Like, you need to, you know... Again, most of us, by default, when we find that s- somebody that we're, we're crazy about or who's crazy about us, our, our natural inclination is to start hiding all the ugly stuff. We're like, "Oh, well, if she doesn't know that, like-"

Steven Bartlett 28:53 (laughs)

Mark Manson 28:53 "... I did this or if, if I really, like, kinda think that, you know, then she'll love me." It's like, no, you have to come to the relationship completely open, saying like, "Hey, here's my list of issues," 'cause we all got them. Um, "I'm working on them," 'cause you're working on yourself. You know, "Hopefully we can work on them together," 'cause obviously they're gonna have their issues too. And so, just that open dialogue I- is kinda necessary to even get things started. That's really where the trust and respect comes from because, like, you can't... Like, if you're not sharing every aspect of yourself, then you're never gonna trust the other person. Like, if you're always kinda hiding something, you're never gonna believe that they are, they're actually loving you. They're, they're believing the thing you're portraying to them. And so, you're, you're never gonna trust it. You're like, "Oh, well, yeah, they're into me now, but it's 'cause they don't know about this thing over here."

Steven Bartlett 29:47 Mm.

Mark Manson 29:47 But if you just come 100% with everything on the table, that's where, that's where the trust is, is, you're able to start building the trust and, and actually, you know, start from a healthy place.

Steven Bartlett 30:00 So, what you said at the start, the first point-

Mark Manson 30:02 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 30:02 ... I, I've... I mean, both points were perfect, but the first point really-It made me think about a million people I know that are in the mindset that if they can find a relationship-

Mark Manson 30:12 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 30:12 ... it will help fix their problems, but they are fundamentally, like, not ready for a relationship. So they go through this, like, vicious negative reinforcing cycle of, like, they weren't ready for a relationship, they got into one-

Mark Manson 30:22 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 30:22 ... tolerated toxic treatment, smashed their self-esteem even more, which meant that they were e- even less ready for a relationship, but meant that they wanted one more-

Mark Manson 30:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 30:30 ... because they, they wanted to fill the, the crack in their self-esteem with a person. And you see them on this r- this sort of, like, repeated rejection cycle-

Mark Manson 30:39 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 30:39 ... of these toxic relationships, and it's, like, going downwards 'cause it's smashing their self-esteem more and more each time, which is making them want a relationship more and more, but making them less capable of having one.

Mark Manson 30:49 (laughs) Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 30:49 And you... And I watch it play out on social media. I'm like, "Jenny..." I'm like, "Jenny, stop." I'm like, "Oh, she's got another boyfriend-" (laughs)

Mark Manson 30:55 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 30:55 Six months later, I'm like, "Oh, no!" It's come-

Mark Manson 30:57 Oh, no. No.

Steven Bartlett 30:57 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark Manson 30:58 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 30:58 And, and, but s- 'cause social media, what it's doing is J- Jenny's waking up in the morning and she's seeing Decart- like, Kylie Jenner looks happy on that yacht with Tr- like, with her boyfriend and this... So these happy people in front of me are happy because of their perfect relationships.

Mark Manson 31:11 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 31:12 And it's that awful spiral. So to say to someone, "Work on yourself."

Mark Manson 31:17 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 31:18 It feel... It's like, well, no. Hmm.

Mark Manson 31:20 It's the equivalent of, like, telling people who wanna get a six-pack to, like, eat vegetables. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 31:26 Yeah, that's fine. (laughs)

Mark Manson 31:27 You know what I mean? It's ex- It's, it's correct.

Steven Bartlett 31:30 Yeah. (laughs)

Mark Manson 31:30 But it's the last thing anybody wants to-

Steven Bartlett 31:32 Yeah.

Mark Manson 31:32 ... it's like, "No, no, no."

Steven Bartlett 31:32 For how long? Yeah. (laughs)

Mark Manson 31:33 "No. G- give me the secret five-day workout routine that's gonna..." You know?

Steven Bartlett 31:37 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark Manson 31:37 And it's like, no. There, there isn't one.

Steven Bartlett 31:39 Yeah.

Mark Manson 31:39 Um, yeah, it's interesting because these things, they, they work... There's, like, a, there, they work in an upward cycle and a, and a downward cycle, you know, and you just described, like, the downward spiral.

Steven Bartlett 31:51 Mm.

Mark Manson 31:51 Uh, and, but it also works the other way around too, because once you're working on yourself, and, like, the work on yourself never ends, right? So, like, once you are working on yourself and you find somebody who's working on themselves, and you're able to communicate about it, then you make each other better-

Steven Bartlett 32:08 Yes.

Mark Manson 32:09 ... which makes you feel even more confident and, and more proud of yourself and, and, and more, uh, m- more solid in who you are, which then just enables you to work on yourself even more. And so it creates an upward spiral as well. Like, one way, I told a friend a couple years ago, 'cause he was kinda having trouble. He was like, "You know, I just..." But, you know, our emotions blind us, right? So it's, like, getting in that new relationship, like, falling for that person, like, it feels so good. And generally the way, (laughs) the way the brain works is, like, when something feels good, we convince ourselves that it is good. And when something feels bad, we convince ourselves that it is bad. And so he was like, "Yeah, it just... It feels so good that, like, I really think, like, that, that yeah, we are being honest and open and we are working on ourselves and, and, uh, and I think it's healthy." And then six months go by and it... And I realize that it's completely toxic and a disaster. And so I told him, I said, "You know, the, the best way I can describe it is when you're in a, an unhealthy relationship or a relationship that's not quite working right, like, you're, you're not completely being open or on the same page, it feels like pushing a boulder up a hill." Like-

Steven Bartlett 33:18 (laughs)

Mark Manson 33:18 Like, you're always pushing hard, you know. You feel like you need to always be pushing to, like, kinda keep things stable and in place. Whereas a healthy relationship, it feels like pushing a rock down a hill, you know?

Steven Bartlett 33:31 Mm.

Mark Manson 33:31 It's like you just give a little, bit, bit of a tug and it just goes.

Steven Bartlett 33:34 Flows, yeah.

Mark Manson 33:35 You know? Like, you don't... At some point, it doesn't even feel like you're putting effort into it anymore. I mean, you are working on it, but it's, like, every amount of effort that you put in is immediately being matched by the other person. And so it's, like-

Steven Bartlett 33:49 Hmm.

Mark Manson 33:50 ... you no long- you no longer feel like you're just fighting constantly to, like, keep things-

Steven Bartlett 33:55 Mm.

Mark Manson 33:56 ... stable.

Steven Bartlett 33:58 And your pick-aparty phase where you learnt these lessons, um, eventually you came out the other end, as we all did.

Mark Manson 34:03 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 34:03 (laughs) My girlfriend's listening now. We all have come out.

Mark Manson 34:05 We're all-

Steven Bartlett 34:06 (laughs)

Mark Manson 34:06 We're all well out of that phase.

Steven Bartlett 34:09 (laughs)

Mark Manson 34:09 Let it be known. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 34:12 (laughs) But you eventually, you come out of it and, um, you know, you write, you write about how you realized that wasn't a fulfilling long-term way to live-

Mark Manson 34:21 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:22 ... just, you know, chasing women around nightclubs, trying to pick them up, and ultimately trying to sleep with them, right?

Mark Manson 34:27 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:27 And you'd slept with a lot of women at this point, um, and you, uh, you decided it wasn't the life for you.

Mark Manson 34:33 No, what, what I started to realize, you know, and, and this realization happened on a number of dimensions around the same time, you know, 'cause, 'cause the business started doing well and I started traveling a lot. You know, there... Generally anything... So in, in, in Subtle Art I talk about, I make a distinction between happiness and highs. And th- this distinction, it was, it was pretty profound for me, because we tend to, we tend to mistake highs for happiness, right? So, uh, meeting, meeting an attractive person or sleeping with an attractive person for the first time, that's a high. Um, making a bunch of money, that's a high. Uh, having, you know, winning an award or an accolade or going to, like, some exotic vacation, putting it on Instagram, getting a ton of likes, like, that's a high. And highs are nice. Like, we all, we all love having highs, and, and we, we do need a certain amount of highs in our life. But highs are not happiness. Happiness is actually kind of the inversion of that in a lot of ways. Happiness is oftentimes actually unpleasant. You know, happiness is i- it's, it's not the check that comes, you know, from the successful product launch. It's the work that goes into that product launch. Happiness is, is the satisfaction, it's... You know, it's not like the peak, the super romantic date. Happiness is being able to, like, sit at home on the couch and not say anything and be completely satisfied. Like, it's... Happiness is, is actually-... often very boring. And so in my 20s, you know, it started with women and parties, and then it kind of went to business. You know, I wanted to grow a big, successful business, and then I did that, and I made a bunch of money. And then I traveled around the world and I lived in all these crazy exotic places and, um, and I started to realize that, like, the- these are just highs. And the thing about highs is that the more you get, the more you need to get that same feeling, right? So if you've never left your home country before, that first trip is like life changing. It's incredibly impactful. But if you've been to 50 countries, going to the 51st is, you're just like, "Ugh, yeah, that flight sucked." Like (laughs) -

Steven Bartlett 36:57 (laughs)

Mark Manson 36:57 ... you know, like you're complaining about the taxi driver.

Steven Bartlett 36:59 (laughs)

Mark Manson 36:59 Like, you're, you know, 'cause it's- you need that much more to get that same hit. Um, and so it becomes a very dangerous thing th- to, to kind of put all of your focus on these things because of that diminishing returns. It- it takes more and more effort to kind of achieve that same sense of satisfaction or, or pleasure. Um, so I really started asking myself like, you know, "What is- what are the things that I'm willing to give up?" What you also don't realize is that you're- you're g- you have to give up a lot for those highs. So like if you do wanna party all the time and sleep with lots of people, you're giving up the opportunity to have a stable relationship with somebody for a long period of time. You're giving up, uh, the comfort that comes with that or the security that comes with that. If you're traveling all the time and living all over the world, like you're giving up the stability of a community, of, uh, knowing your neighbors, of, you know, having- being able to see your friends consistently. Like, it- there's all these subtle unsexy things that you're giving up to chase the highs that you don't really realize you're giving them up until you've given them up for a long time. So I started to realize that and, and kind of like re- like rethink my whole understanding of what happiness and success is in general.

Steven Bartlett 38:24 So I'm- I'm keen to get into the details there, but I- again, jumping ahead a little bit, i- is that a ... well, is that an easy thing to do-

Mark Manson 38:34 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 38:34 ... I guess would be my question? Because- because when you've got that childhood force in you of like the insecurities and the-

Mark Manson 38:39 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 38:39 ... social acceptance and that's always gonna be in the- in, you know, and it can rear its ugly head if you're- if those kind of insecurities are somewhat triggered as- even as an adult. And it can say, you know, "You need to fit in. You need to get by that thing."

Mark Manson 38:50 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 38:50 "You need to travel. You need to be more successful." But then you've got this new set of like conscious values you're describing where you're saying, "Well, now I value these things." But then that little demon on your shoulder is saying, "Buy the fucking Lamborghini."

Mark Manson 39:01 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 39:01 Do you know what I mean? Like how do you ... (laughs)

Mark Manson 39:03 Well, I- I think a lot of it is, you know, I- I think a lot of value ch- like changing your values, and again, I- I think I say this in Subtle Art, like you can't just sit on the couch and think your way out of your values. Like you need to go live them and then have them fail you really. And for me, that- that- what that looked like, you know, going out and- and kind of living this fantasy life of partying all ar- around the world and hooking up with all these girls, and then just having that fail me and realize that it's actually very empty and, uh, and- and realize after a few years that you're- you're literally not keeping in touch with e- you know, all these people who you thought like, "Oh my God, we're gonna be friends forever." And then three years go by and you realize you're not keeping in touch with any of these people.

Steven Bartlett 39:52 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 39:53 And then you go on Facebook and you see like that now they're married and they just had a kid and they're so happy and you're like, "Shit, I'm like still doing the same thing." Like, "I'm still-"

Steven Bartlett 40:02 (laughs)

Mark Manson 40:02 "... drinking on a beach with the same people, um, for like the third year straight. Like something's not right here." Um, and in the case of money, it's like s- I think sometimes people have to buy that Lamborghini and realize it doesn't fix anything. Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 40:20 (laughs)

Mark Manson 40:20 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 40:20 That was me. (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

Mark Manson 40:22 Like it's fun for a week or a month or like you get- you g- get to go show your friends or your parents or whatever, and then they don't really care.

Steven Bartlett 40:30 Yeah. You're so- you're so right in what you said earlier as well, linked to that point, is like I remember buying the big house, like seven bedroom house with a tennis court-

Mark Manson 40:36 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 40:36 ... out in the countryside. The cost was I was now an hour and a half away from my friends. They couldn't come anyway.

Mark Manson 40:43 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 40:43 Like ... (laughs)

Mark Manson 40:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 40:44 ... I was there for nine months before I was like p- I said to the landlord, like, "Please let me out." Like-

Mark Manson 40:48 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 40:48 And I moved into this like one bed right in the middle of the city because in fact I'd exchanged like the status ego s- I- I'd bought into the status and ego of having this big house, but the cost was no one could come and see it.

Mark Manson 41:00 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:00 I was lonely as fuck. It meant that my commute to work was three hours there and back.

Mark Manson 41:04 Jesus.

Steven Bartlett 41:04 It was like a terrible insecure decision at 21 years old.

Mark Manson 41:07 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:07 Right? So and then, but I had to do it.

Mark Manson 41:10 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:10 Like I- like Steve had to find- like taste that himself-

Mark Manson 41:12 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:12 ... and have it fail me as you say, so.

Mark Manson 41:14 Yeah. I know I'm jumping ahead again, but Will's got a great story in his book, um, so ...

Steven Bartlett 41:19 For context, you wrote Will Smith's-

Mark Manson 41:21 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:21 ... brand new book called Will.

Mark Manson 41:23 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 41:23 Which I have here.

Mark Manson 41:23 Um, so Will- Will had a hit record when he was a senior in high school. He was 17. And of course he went out and bought like four different cars and bunch of motorcycles, bought a house, and, uh, he has this great moment where he- he lined up all of his cars and motorcycles outside his new house and then invited his dad over. And, uh, his dad shows up and he's like, "Yo, what's up, Pops? Like what do you think?" You know? And his dad's like, "Are these all yours?" And he's like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you think?" And his dad goes, "Man, what the fuck are you doing? You only got one ass." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 42:01 (laughs)

Mark Manson 42:01 "What do you need four cars for?" (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 42:04 Yeah, that's true.

Mark Manson 42:05 And- and sure enough like two years later he went broke, you know, 'cause he's-

Steven Bartlett 42:09 Really?

Mark Manson 42:09 ... he spent all of his money. Yeah. He spent all of his money and didn't pay taxes, so that's a bad combination.

Steven Bartlett 42:16 Oh.... you, you s- really have, uh, you know. And it's- I always think this 'cause I read a lot of quotes and I've read a book and stuff. And I always say i- in my writing, like, "My words will never overcome your insecurities."

Mark Manson 42:28 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:28 That thing that kid said to you when you were seven years old or your dad said to you will always be a stronger force in your life than some 140-character quote that I say about-

Mark Manson 42:36 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 42:36 ... how you should be living your life, so- (laughs)

Mark Manson 42:38 Right, right.

Steven Bartlett 42:38 ... go do the work, right? Um, and learn that for yourself. (paper rustling) Why should you drink Huel? We're going into the fourth quarter of the year. Diets are dropping off. We're becoming lazier and lazier. And what tends to happen when w- when our diets dip and we, we start to become less, um, compelled to go to the gym is, yeah, we get out of shape. We start to feel low energy. We start to binge eat bad things. And Huel is the antidote. It's nutritionally complete so you get everything you need for your diet in a drink. You get your 20 grams of proteins. You're gonna get your 26 vitamins and- vitamins and minerals. It's low sugar, high in fiber. It really is the cure to a lot of the health issues that we see in our personal lives, but in wider s- society. If you've never tried it, all I'll ask you to do is give it a try. And if you're like me, then you will like the Wild Berry ready-to-drink. You'll like the mac and cheese, which is just selling, like, absolutely cr- crazy, unsurprisingly. Um, you'll like the cinnamon, and you'll like the banana flavor. Those are my recommendations. I know a lot of people love the chocolate flavor. Let me know. Try it, get yourself healthy, and send me-

Mark Manson 43:45 (paper rustling)

Steven Bartlett 43:45 ... a message on Instagram. Tag me on Instagram as well on your stories if you do dr- try it out 'cause I, I sometimes upload those tags. And let me know which is your favorite flavor. Can't wait to hear from you. (paper rustling)

Steven Bartlett 43:55 One of the things you say is, um, that your one rule for life is each person must never be treated only as a means to some other end, but must also be treated as an end themselves.

Mark Manson 44:04 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 44:05 Please tell me what that means and-

Mark Manson 44:07 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 44:08 ... hmm.

Mark Manson 44:08 It's a little ph- it's a little philosophical. It actually comes from, from the philosopher Kant. Um-

Steven Bartlett 44:14 Yeah.

Mark Manson 44:14 It basically means that, like, I think anything that is, is unethical or unhealthy, it's because we're not- we're treating another person as a means to another end, right? So if you're kind of using somebody for their money, or if you're manipulating somebody to try to, like, get a job or a promotion or something, um, or if you're just straight-up, like, stealing from somebody or lying to them, like, in all of those cases, you're tr- you're valuing some external thing, whether it's money or a car or prestige more than the person themselves.

Steven Bartlett 44:52 Mm.

Mark Manson 44:53 And I- to me, it's just kind of, like, when I look at every useful piece of advice, whether in personal development or just how to be a good person-

Steven Bartlett 45:09 Hmm.

Mark Manson 45:09 ... you know, how to be an ethical person, it all comes right back down to that rule. Like, you- everything you do, it needs to be ultimately for the betterment of yourself or others, like making yourself a better person and making other people better too. And anytime you deviate from that, you're either going to get into ethical trouble-

Steven Bartlett 45:33 Mm.

Mark Manson 45:33 ... or you're going to get into toxic relationships.

Steven Bartlett 45:37 Like, if I've got a car that I'm selling and I know that it's faulty-

Mark Manson 45:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 45:41 ... but I invite someone over and I say, "This is the best car in the world. Please buy it."

Mark Manson 45:45 Yep. It's unethical. And you're, you're using that person as a means to an end. In a personal development context, it's like if you're dating somebody not really 'cause you like them, but because you want to impress your friends, then you're using that person as a means to some other end, right?

Steven Bartlett 45:59 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 45:59 And it's like that relationship is gonna go south-

Steven Bartlett 46:02 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 46:02 ... really fast. Like, it's gonna get ugly. So it's not just ethical, it's practical. You know, Kant meant it, like, said it in ethical terms, but I just kinda realized that it's, like, all good personal development advice is essentially the same thing. It's like-

Steven Bartlett 46:16 Mm.

Mark Manson 46:16 ... treat people well. Like, put- place people, uh, before money, before, you know, accolades, before attention or status.

Steven Bartlett 46:26 Mm.

Mark Manson 46:26 Like, always put people first. And, uh, and everything else kinda takes care of itself.

Steven Bartlett 46:32 And that's the long-term game, right?

Mark Manson 46:34 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 46:34 That's the, the l- it's- 'cause in the short term, you might sell the car.

Mark Manson 46:37 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 46:37 But in the long term, your reputational damage and your general sense of feeling inside and-

Mark Manson 46:42 Yeah. Which, which you see all the time w- in, in internet businesses, right? Like, it's- you see kind of those sleazy sales letters that, that are pushing a, a questionable product. And sure, maybe they, they have a big, like, five million dollar launch, but they've just completely destroyed- you know, eventually all those people who bought are gonna realize that the product is shit-

Steven Bartlett 47:05 Mm.

Mark Manson 47:05 ... and they're never gonna buy from you again. And so you've- yeah, you made a bun- millions of dollars upfront, but you've completely destroyed your brand, and you're gonna have to start over from scratch.

Steven Bartlett 47:15 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 47:15 Whereas if you kind of start with the people in mind and you focus on the good product, the good relationship, giving people good value, you make less money upfront, but then those people stick with you-

Steven Bartlett 47:28 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 47:29 ... forever, product after product after product.

Steven Bartlett 47:32 You, um-

Steven Bartlett 47:33 w- I was, I was watching your conversation with, with Tom Bilyeu, and I found it really, really interesting and important because one of the things you talk about when we're talking about, you know, deciding what you wanna do with your life, whether it's a business or you're gonna be a pickup artist or whatever it is-

Mark Manson 47:47 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 47:47 ... is this- the importance of asking the question why. And in the society and culture we live in, especially one that's so driven by comparison where your values are almost being handed to you by Instagram and the Kardashians, like-

Mark Manson 47:57 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 47:57 ... "This is how- this is what you should value." Like, I almost- I've almost felt- I remember one day, a kid came up to me after I did this, like, big talk on stage, and he said, "I wanna be a public speaker." And he was, like, 17.

Mark Manson 48:08 (laughs) Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 48:08 And you're thinking, "But you've got nothing," like- (laughs)

Mark Manson 48:10 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 48:11 (laughs)

Mark Manson 48:11 Like, "What are you gonna talk about?" (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 48:13 "What are you gonna talk about?" And it's- and really what he's saying is, like, he doesn't wanna be a public speaker. He wants the admiration-

Mark Manson 48:18 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 48:18 ... he thinks public speakers get, probably because he's insecure.

Mark Manson 48:21 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 48:21 And, and...... so many kids, including myself as a young kid, we don't actually know what we want. We have-

Mark Manson 48:29 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 48:29 ... no fucking clue.

Mark Manson 48:29 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 48:30 But what we probably want is not to be insecure and get laid-

Mark Manson 48:32 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 48:32 ... like, at the heart of it. And the pursuit of that-

Mark Manson 48:34 Right.

Steven Bartlett 48:34 ... as you've described, takes us down a dark alley to the wrong place, usually a dead end as well. So, how do I figure out what, what I actually want-

Mark Manson 48:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 48:43 ... in my life, without it being Kardashian noise or Instagram? Like, what does, what, w- what do I want and how do I find out?

Mark Manson 48:49 I think... So, it's a tricky thing, right? Because again, I think you k- you kinda have to get it r- It's like the relationships. You need to get a couple wrong before you know how to get it right. And I think it's the same in pursuing a career or, or, or finding a purpose in life. Like, you, you need to get it wrong a couple times, because we're experts at tricking ourselves, you know? It's like that kid, he wants admiration, right? But if you ask them in his head, he's like, "No, no, no. I'm just really passionate about communicating with people. I love people." You know? And it's like, we all do that to ourselves. We all, like, we find the, the admirable narrative to kind of explain what we're, what we want in the world. So, I think you need to go through... You need to hit a couple dead ends, you know? It's like, like that kid, he probably should go get on stage and give the speeches and get the applause, and then realize that the applause doesn't solve anything. That he's still, he's still just as insecure as he was before. Because then once, once he does that, then he'll be ready to ask that question of like, "Why do I wanna do thi- Like, why am I really doing this?" I- it's almost a question you have to earn in a lot of ways.

Steven Bartlett 50:01 Interesting.

Mark Manson 50:02 You know? And I feel like a lot of people, they just wanna start there. And it's like, no, no, no. You have to like... 'Cause look, we're all... Like, the Kardashian thing, right? Like, like the reason that stuff is so popular is because w- we're wired to value it. We're wired to want status. We're wired to wanna be beautiful and sexy, and we're wired to wanna impress others. Like, that's never gonna go away. The question is, is like, what do you want once that is kind of removed from the equation? But I think mentally t- to be able to remove it from the equation, you have to try to get some of it first and, and, and see that it doesn't work, if that makes sense.

Steven Bartlett 50:43 And what did you come to learn for yourself, um, once you got that stuff, you had the money, you were, you know-

Mark Manson 50:48 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 50:49 ... had lots of, um, success in the field-

Mark Manson 50:52 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 50:52 ... with, uh, pickup artistry. And you tried all of these things, and you tried the cars, and what did you come to learn that you value?

Mark Manson 50:59 Well, I had an interesting experience in my career, which we were joking about it before we went live, was like, I kinda had this realiza- So, I started the pickup stuff when I was like 21, 22. And, and then I started coaching and like teaching dating advice, um, probably when I was like 23, 24. And I got to like my late 20s, and I s- it suddenly, it started to dawn on me that like, "This is cool now, but in like five years it's gonna be really creepy." You know? Like, it's, it's one thing to be a 25-year-old who's like taking a bunch of dudes out to like talk to girls in a club. It's very different to be like a 35-year-old guy- (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 51:43 (laughs)

Mark Manson 51:43 ... who's taking out a bunch of dudes to talk to 20-year-old girls at a club. Like, it just, it's a much different look. And I also just realized, I'm like, "I don't wanna do this forever." Like, "This is fun, but like I, this is actually not fulfilling in any way whatsoever." Like, "I need to find what my next thing is gonna be." And during that period when I was doing all the dating relationship advice, I started to realize, especially with like a lotta, a lotta clients, a lotta guys who hired me, you know, I'd take 'em out to the bar and we'd talk to some girls or whatever. But after a year or two, I realized like what these guys really need is a therapist. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 52:21 (laughs)

Mark Manson 52:21 You know? It's, it's their problem, you know? They're good guys, like they're, they're smart. They're s- they're like, they've got a good job. Um, they're, sure they're a little bit nervous talking to a girl, but like who isn't? What, really what their, most of their problems were, is like very deep seeded insecurities, emotional issues, and they hadn't dealt with it yet. And so, the last couple years I did that job, I would kinda just take the guys to the bar as an excuse, and then sit down with them and be like, "Okay, let's like, what's really going on in your life?" (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 52:56 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 52:56 You know? Like, like let, let's get into why do you feel so insufficient or, or unworthy of, you know, dating her or talking to her or whatever. And so, I, I kinda realized that like, you know, what I should be writing about is this stuff. You know? The, the like, the, the three best first dates or like how to get her to reply to your text every time. Like, I was writing stuff like that back then 'cause it, it got traffic and it, it would-

Steven Bartlett 53:25 Hmm.

Mark Manson 53:25 ... it would get sales. But I'm like, "That's not what people actually need. That's not what they need to hear." What they need to hear is kind of this deeper stuff, uh, about self-esteem and self-worth and vulnerability. And, and so, I, I made that decision to pivot into that, to stop being the dating coach and, and, and actually start writing about personal development and emotional health, because that's something I knew I could be proud of and, and I could do for the rest of my life. You know? You, you, you can be a 50-year-old, uh, talking about those things and it's still like something you can hang your hat on. Like-

Steven Bartlett 54:00 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 54:01 But I never would've gotten there if I hadn't done the dating coach stuff.

Steven Bartlett 54:04 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 54:04 If I hadn't kind of been obsessed with the like, "Yeah, let's go to the club and like try to get laid." Like you, that's the entry point, right?

Steven Bartlett 54:11 Hmm.

Mark Manson 54:11 And then you find the deeper stuff along the way.

Steven Bartlett 54:15 And that's your, that's your sort of, now your professional, um, value, I guess. The, one of the things you value professionally. But in terms of like holistically, when you look at your whole life-

Mark Manson 54:25 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 54:25 ... what are the things where the values at the heart of Mark that allow him to be...... you know, fulfilled, stable, and, uh, yes, susta- su- su- sustainable, like the-

Mark Manson 54:39 Sure.

Steven Bartlett 54:39 ... sustainable values that you think can last y- because of these values, I will be somewhat, you know, content and fulfilled for the next 30, 40 years holistically?

Mark Manson 54:47 Gotcha. (laughs) So, I mean, the answer, it's gonna sound really banal, but, like, um, but it's true. Uh, you know, I think probably the biggest one for me is, is honesty. And not just honesty, you know, with the b- uh, with the people in my life. Like, ho- ho- honesty is a standard that I hold kind of everybody, all my friends, and everybody I, I work with too. Uh, but it's also something I hold myself to, uh, being honest with myself. I think generosity is-

Steven Bartlett 55:16 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 55:16 ... is one that I've discovered. Again, it's one of those things that when you do make all the money, like, you do make a butt load of money, you learn that it's so much more fun to spend it on other people-

Steven Bartlett 55:28 Hm.

Mark Manson 55:28 ... than it is yourself. Like, it feels so much better. And, and it means a lot more. Like, it's... It creates those really powerful moments that you, you do remember-

Steven Bartlett 55:38 Hm.

Mark Manson 55:38 ... for the rest of your life. Whereas, the Lamborghini, you forget about. (laughs) Like-

Steven Bartlett 55:43 Only, only two seats, right? (laughs)

Mark Manson 55:44 Yeah, yeah, you only got one ass, so... (laughs) Um...

Steven Bartlett 55:49 Community's an interesting one that, uh, you talk about s- uh, often-

Mark Manson 55:52 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 55:52 Having a, a community is something that I disregarded when I was pursuing just becoming rich myself was-

Mark Manson 55:57 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 55:57 ... connection. And, uh, it wasn't... I was actually at, I think, a TED Talk I saw where the TED Talk was tr- was telling me that men who have been in a relationship and had strong relationships live longer, are healthier, are happier.

Mark Manson 56:08 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 56:08 And I was thinking, "What?"

Mark Manson 56:09 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 56:09 You know, like, do you know, 'cause it was a counter-narrative to my, like, just be, be rich, you know-

Mark Manson 56:14 Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 56:14 ... thing.

Mark Manson 56:15 Yeah, I mean, community was one that I had to kind of, like, begrudgingly accept.

Steven Bartlett 56:22 Same.

Mark Manson 56:23 Yeah. Um, 'cause I, I always have been such a loner, right? And, and, and it, I think living abroad for, for so long, it kind of forced me to accept my own loneliness, you know, and, and recogni- and I was... I started achieving a lot of great things in my business, and having all these great experiences and then realizing that, like, nobody I really cared about was around me when it was happening. And so, it, it felt, to a certain degree, it felt kind of pointless. So, I moved back to the States and, and settled down and, and one of m- you know, one of my goals when I moved back to the US was, like, I wanna have a stable group of friends who are kind of on the same path as me. And it's... Yeah, it's one of the best things I did, honestly.

Steven Bartlett 57:11 Th- you, you've re- referenced honesty a second ago, which I find really, um, another really interesting one. It's, uh... So when you said honesty, what I understood was, um, being honest about who I am, what I feel, what I think, what I'm passionate about, and, um, stubbornly and un-negotiably protecting my right to be my true self-

Mark Manson 57:35 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 57:35 ... in life. And, um, that, uh, again, it allows a lot of the, the toxic, insecure stuff to fall away. And just wear what you want, be who you are, et cetera, et cetera. Um, how important has that been for y- for you in terms of just, like, being your true self every day of your life? And, um, is there any tips or tricks you have for especially someone like you who's in high demand and-

Mark Manson 57:57 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 57:57 ... there's lots of people asking you to do lots of things and be lots of things and-

Mark Manson 58:00 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 58:00 ... how do you defend that above all?

Mark Manson 58:04 Honesty, first of all, you can't be your true self without honesty. Like, if you're not being honest with yourself and about what you want and what you care about-

Steven Bartlett 58:11 Mm.

Mark Manson 58:11 ... you're not being your true self. Like, you're, you're, you're deluding yourself. And, you know, a huge cornerstone of my work in general is just all the ways we delude ourselves, 'cause we delude ourselves in a lot of different ways. (laughs) So, to me, it's, it's a constant work in progress. It's, it's, um, it's almost like a h- a mental habit that you build. Uh, one, you know, one of the tools is what you mentioned earlier, is, like, constantly asking why. You know, it's like, "W- why, why am I taking this job? Why am I saying yes to this speaking opportunity? Why do I want to write email newsletters? Or why do I wanna build my Instagram following? Like, really, why?" You know, and, and try on different answers. Like, always try on the answer you don't wanna hear and see how it feels, see if it feels true or not. Kind of coming back to the community point, when you do find some, some like-minded people, like, people who are also kind of dedicated to, to honesty and being-

Steven Bartlett 59:06 Hm.

Mark Manson 59:06 ... being self-aware, they can be great sounding boards. I mean, m- my wife is always the first one to tell me when I'm full of shit. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 59:15 Ah, yeah.

Mark Manson 59:15 You know, which is great. You know, obviously, I don't like hearing it in the moment sometimes.

Steven Bartlett 59:20 Yeah. (laughs)

Mark Manson 59:20 But, you know, sometimes I'll tell her something and she'll be like, "You sh- are you sure about... You sure about that?"

Steven Bartlett 59:28 (laughs)

Mark Manson 59:28 You know, she'll kind of, like, start challenging me, challenging me on it. And, um, you know, and I've learned to, to, to, um, to take that well and, and take it seriously. Um, so that's kind of the first part is, like, it's something you, you continue to cultivate throughout your life. Um, your second question was, was about bringing that honesty kind of into the world, especially dealing in business dealings and people who ask things.

Steven Bartlett 59:57 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 59:57 And w- it's hard, like, it's interesting because I wr- I wrote about this in a newsletter once. It's like, when you're starting out, you, you kind of have to say yes to everything. Like, it's, like, you're desperate for opportunity and so you're just always saying, "Yes, yes, yes." And then a weird, like, transition happens at some point where you, you have to start saying no to people, um, or else you're just gonna lose your mind, um, 'cause there's just way more opportunities than you can ever-

Steven Bartlett 1:00:25 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 1:00:25 ... handle. And so you have to... Like, learning to say no gracefully, I think, is a very important skill.... uh, in business and in life. Like, being able to, like, let people down. And in, in the business context, actually in the personal context as well, I, what I've kind of found to be, like, the easiest way to do it is I kinda create rules for myself. Uh, and I don't know what it is, but when you tell people, "I have a rule, and this is why I'm saying no," they take it really well. Like, they actually respect it. You know?

Steven Bartlett 1:01:03 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 1:01:03 So it's like if somebody comes to me and they're like, "Hey, I've got this event, this, like, charity event. Uh, it's gonna happen this month. You know, would really love if you were able to, like, do a video for us or come out or whatever." And it's like, "You know, I really don't wanna do it."

Steven Bartlett 1:01:17 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 1:01:18 If I'm just like, "Hey, sorry, but no," you know, like, then it starts to feel really weird and-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:24 Emotional and personal.

Mark Manson 1:01:26 Yeah, they, e- exactly. It feels personal.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:28 Yeah.

Mark Manson 1:01:28 I think that's what it is, um, because... And they start and they're like, "Oh, no, but, like, we really want you." And like, "The, the kids are gonna love it," and blah, blah, blah. And then you start and you're like, "God, I'm a horrible person," and-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:39 Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

Mark Manson 1:01:40 ... you know? And they're, like, they're kind of thinking-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:41 Yeah.

Mark Manson 1:01:41 ... like, "Wow, Mark Manson's an asshole."

Steven Bartlett 1:01:43 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark Manson 1:01:44 You know? And, but if I go to them and I'm like, "Look, like, my rule is I do four events a year. I'm already booked, I'm sorry."

Steven Bartlett 1:01:51 Then it was the principal that let them down as opposed to the, you know, you-

Mark Manson 1:01:54 The-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:54 Yeah.

Mark Manson 1:01:54 Exactly.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:55 Yeah.

Mark Manson 1:01:55 And they're like, "Oh, man-"

Steven Bartlett 1:01:56 (laughs)

Mark Manson 1:01:56 "... I should've emailed sooner." You know? (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:01:59 (laughs) He wants to do it, but the principal said no.

Mark Manson 1:02:02 (laughs) Yeah. But it's, but it's true. It's like, I'm not lying, it's just I create a rule for myself. You know, another thing, another rule, uh, it's... And it was a really popular article I did is, is, is, uh, uh, if it's not a fuck yes, it's a no. And so what I've learned is that a lot of times turning people down, I'll say like, "Look, I have a rule for myself. You know, I... If I'm gonna do something, I need to be fuck yes about it. Like, I need to be all in and 100%, like, dedicated to it." And I said, "I, I'm not feeling that with this. I w- I wouldn't be able to give it my full energy and attention that... And, and it deserves that, so I'm gonna say no." You know? And so-

Steven Bartlett 1:02:40 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 1:02:40 ... when you put it that way, they're like, "Huh, good guy Mark Manson, like, looking out for me," you know? Like... (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:02:46 (laughs) Yeah.

Mark Manson 1:02:48 Uh, so i- it's, there's like, um... I think there's, there's some, some tactic, there are, like, good and bad ways to say no to people.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:54 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:56 One of the other things that I really loved when I was reading all of your work is this undercurrent of personal responsibility-

Mark Manson 1:03:03 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:03 ... that runs through everything. And in our society, for whatever reason, people don't like that... Some people-

Mark Manson 1:03:09 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:09 ... really don't like that idea of personal responsibility that you might be, more so than you believe, responsible for the circumstances of your life. Because for some people, that shines, that turns the mirror on them and says, "You've got no one to blame."

Mark Manson 1:03:22 Sure.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:22 It's not the government. It's not this, that, this, your uncle, whatever. It's the decisions you've made.

Mark Manson 1:03:27 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:27 And for some people, that's a motivating thing. It's liberation. It's, "Oh, I'm in control? Okay." Da, da, da. But I feel like some people would rather there be a puppet master to point to. Um...

Mark Manson 1:03:36 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:37 So, what's your beliefs and thoughts on personal responsibility, the importance of it? And if you can as well, um, like, why some people hate it?

Mark Manson 1:03:45 (laughs) I think, uh, to me, responsibility is kind of, like, the, the core under... Like, i- if, if there's no personal responsibility, nothing else is ever gonna work or improve. You know, be- to improve anything, you have to believe you have some sort of power or influence on it. And if you have some sort of power or influence, you're responsible for that power and influence. So if you, if you just reject the idea that you're responsible for s- an area of your life, like i- i- it's like, "I'm not responsible for my shitty relationships, it's all their fault," you're basically disempowering yourself from ever improving them because you're, you're rejecting the idea that you have any influence on them. I think, I think the reason or one reason why people really kinda bristle at the idea is I think we, we tend to mistake responsibility and fault, right? So if, if I w- if I'm like a typical dumb American and walk cr- try to cross a street in London looking the wrong way, uh, and I get hit by a car, you know, it's not my fault that I got hit by a car. But it's still my responsibility. Like, I still need to take, take control of my recovery. I need to, like, take care of my body. I need to decide, you know, what I'm gonna do. Uh, there's a per- there's a responsibility in every moment because in every moment, we're choosing what to do, what to perceive, what to believe, what to focus on. Like, that choice is happening every single moment. And because that is a choice, there's responsibility for that choice, right?

Steven Bartlett 1:05:32 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 1:05:33 Um, I use the example in Subtle Art of, like, if somebody left a newborn baby on your doorstep, it's not your fault that there's a baby on your doorstep. But it sure as shit is your responsibility. Like, you have to do something. (laughs) Like, you can't-

Steven Bartlett 1:05:49 (laughs)

Mark Manson 1:05:49 ... you can't just shut the door and be like, "Not my baby." You know? (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:05:53 (laughs)

Mark Manson 1:05:53 Like (laughs) , like it just doesn't work that way. And so I think particularly people who have had a lot of bad things happen in their life and, and those things are not their fault, it's very, very difficult for them to, to accept responsibility because, well, for a couple reasons. One is it's once you accept responsibility, it means you have to do something.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:16 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 1:06:16 You have to change something. You have to change your perspective. You have to change your actions. You have to change your beliefs. And all of those things are very uncomfortable. But I, I think the other thing is that a lot of times people get very attached to their stories, right? So, a terrible thing happens to them, it kinda fucks them up.... and that becomes their identity. Like, that's how they get sympathy from other people. It's how, it's how other people know them. It's the basis of a lot of their relationships, and so they're actually afraid to let it go.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:52 Mm.

Mark Manson 1:06:52 Right? Like, it's, it's actually a scary thing to, to let go of that identity. So yeah. It, it's, it's a hard thing to do, but we all have to kind of go through that struggle.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:04 It's really interesting. It's, uh... Yeah. Uh, it, it's something that I see a lot in, in our, in our culture at the moment, specifically with young people, because I think In- Instagram has, um, (inhales deeply) created more of a community for that kind of, like, "I'm gonna just be honest," that kind of, like, self-pitying-

Mark Manson 1:07:20 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:21 ... blame, um, and the algorithms are now kind of reinforcing that, and, you know, you'll get more likes if you do the-

Mark Manson 1:07:27 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:28 It's, you know-

Mark Manson 1:07:29 I, I, I, I heard it referred to as the victimhood Olympics.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:33 Yes. Exactly.

Mark Manson 1:07:34 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:34 Yeah.

Mark Manson 1:07:35 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:07:35 Yeah.

Mark Manson 1:07:36 Which is like, "Oh, you win."

Steven Bartlett 1:07:37 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark Manson 1:07:37 Like, "You've had the worst shit happen to you."

Steven Bartlett 1:07:40 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark Manson 1:07:40 "Here's your medal." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:07:42 Yeah. One of the kind of

Steven Bartlett 1:07:43 self-development, you know, tropes or, like, you know, piece of advice I, I hear often that's linked to that is that happiness is a choice.

Mark Manson 1:07:50 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:50 How do you feel about that phrase?

Mark Manson 1:07:52 Uh, I mean, I think it's fundamentally true. Obviously, I think it's a little more complicated than that. Um, but it, it kinda comes back to what I was saying, like, you... I think when people say that, what they're referring to is, like, in every moment, you, you get to choose what to focus on, right?

Steven Bartlett 1:08:10 Hmm.

Mark Manson 1:08:10 So, if a car hits me in the middle of the street here, I can either focus on how unlucky I am and how unfair this is and how it fucked up my press trip to, to the UK, you know, and all this stuff, you know, or I can focus on something else. I can focus on, you know, how fortunate I am to survive, how... You know, and I think this is where it kind of, like, the, the positive thinking stuff was intended to refer to. You know, like, in cl- classic self-help of, like, just think positive. Like, this is what it, what it was trying to say, but it kinda got distorted and turned into this weird delusional thing. But it's basically, like, you know, in every single moment, you are choosing how to see things. And so in that sense, you can always choose in every moment to see things in a way that, that makes you feel better.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:03 Hmm.

Mark Manson 1:09:04 And, uh, it's not easy. It's actually really, really hard, but in that sense, happiness can be a choice. Like, it's, it's always within your power. There's no person on Earth that the happiness has been removed from their brain. Like, it's, it's all in there. It's all in you. It's just a question of do you know how to access it, and will you access it? Will you choose to?

Steven Bartlett 1:09:27 And one of the things that does feel like a choice linked to that is the expectations that we, we choose for life.

Mark Manson 1:09:33 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:33 And you write about how expectations can really be a, a curse of happiness.

Mark Manson 1:09:38 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:39 Um, how d- how do we... So, why are expec- are, are expectations a potential curse, and why are they dangerous, and how do we set better expectations, then?

Mark Manson 1:09:49 Well, expectations are dangerous because, uh, you know, I think there's a... I forget who came up with it, but I think it's... There's this, like, old equation where it's like happiness equals reality minus expectations.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:01 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 1:10:01 You know? So, if you have these, like, huge, unreasonable expectations for yourself, you're always gonna be disappointed. But then, it's a double-edged sword, because if you have, like, tiny expectations for yourself, then you're not gonna try to do anything. So, like, there, there's this weird balance where... I mean, I j- I prefer kind of, like, more of the Buddhist take, which is, like, just don't have expectations. Like, just don't expect anything. Like, be-

Steven Bartlett 1:10:21 Is that possible?

Mark Manson 1:10:23 No, but-

Steven Bartlett 1:10:24 (laughs)

Mark Manson 1:10:25 ... but it's kinda like honesty, right? Like, it's, it's... You, you never completely get there, but you should still try. And, um, it's, and it's particularly useful, I find, in, in, in managing anxiety. You know, 'cause anxiety tends to come from, uh, just either irrational or outsized expectations, right? So, it's like you're about to go on stage and talk to a bunch of people, and your expectation is, like, "I'm gonna bomb. I'm gonna look like a fool. Like, people are gonna laugh at me," and it's because of that expectation that you start feeling a lot of anxiety, start feeling terrible. Whereas if you just kind of take the expectation of, of, you know, "This is just another moment. You know, it's, it's gonna happen. People are probably not gonna remember it. Like, it just is. It's gonna be whatever it's gonna be," um, it can eliminate a lot of that. I do that with, with my book launches, 'cause obviou- like any author, I'm like... I probably was probably the same with you. Like, you, you know that when your book is coming out, like, you're, like, crippled on the floor, like, "Everybody's gonna hate me."

Steven Bartlett 1:11:32 Hmm.

Mark Manson 1:11:32 "They're all gonna laugh at me," you know? And it's... To me, it just helps to just remove any assumption of, like, what it's gonna be, you know? "Don't assume it's gonna do well, but don't assume it's gonna do poorly." Like, it's, it's gonna do what it's gonna do, and you're gonna be fine either way, so... (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:11:48 Even though you know that, do you still feel-

Mark Manson 1:11:52 Of course. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:11:53 (laughs)

Mark Manson 1:11:55 Of course. Of course. Like, you never... The anxiety never goes away, but it,

Mark Manson 1:12:00 it gets managed, right?

Steven Bartlett 1:12:01 Do you, do you suffer with anxiety?

Mark Manson 1:12:03 Uh, yeah. For sure.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:04 And how long have you suffered with it for?

Mark Manson 1:12:06 I mean, since forever. I mean, I am human. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:12:10 Yeah. So there's kind o- It's kind of like a s- I, I, I see it... Well, I see it as a spectrum almost. There's like... On one end of it, it might be... And I'm... If I sound super naive here, it's 'cause I am. Like, um, there might be f- nervousness bef- you know, pre-, pre-performance anxiety-

Mark Manson 1:12:25 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:25 ... and then there's, like, the daily struggle with anxiety, which can be, like, debilitating-

Mark Manson 1:12:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:30 ... I guess.

Mark Manson 1:12:32 Yeah. I, I think the way most people look at emotions, they look at emotions in terms of intensity, and I, I think that's not the right way to look at it.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:40 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 1:12:40 Like, it's...... everybody feels anxiety. It doesn't matter, like the most confident person on the planet feels anxiety. It's what's different between somebody who seems very confident and somebody who seems debi- debilitated is that the person who seems confident is managing their anxiety very well. They're, they're channeling their anxiety very effectively into their actions and behaviors. Whereas the person who's debilitated by it is not. So i- in that sense, I, I see managing emotions i- it's like a skill, right? And, and, and I think this, we all kind of know this. Like, we all, we all know somebody who's, like, very good at managing their anger, or somebody who's very good at managing their anxiety. And we all probably know somebody who's very bad at managing their anger-

Steven Bartlett 1:13:25 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 1:13:26 ... somebody who's very bad at managing their anxiety or managing their sadness. And so, I think it's, you know, s- we each kind of have, like, a natural talent for some emotions-

Steven Bartlett 1:13:34 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 1:13:35 ... and not others. And so, i- i- it's something we kind of have to learn. Like, you, you learn to feel the anxiety and then use that energy, you know, kind of adopt the right mindsets and beliefs around it, and then use that energy in a way that's effective.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:51 Mm-hmm. You, you write about, you know, how, especially in Everything is Fucked, a book about hope, um, how mental health ailments are somewhat increasing in the world. It appears, it appears when they ... Some people say that it's because we're, like, you know, diagnosing-

Mark Manson 1:14:08 Over-diagnosing.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:08 ... yeah, whatever. But, um, I would assert, if I was to be- to guess, and based on the information that I've seen, and I'm a big, um, big, h- heavily involved in a company called Atai Life Sciences, which is in the psychedelic space, so we look at schizophrenia and depression and-

Mark Manson 1:14:22 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:22 ... anxiety. Um, it does appear to be increasing.

Mark Manson 1:14:26 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:26 People do appears to be get- getting more anxious. And my general belief, which is not backed by anything is that, how could we not be in a world that, where there's so much stimulation?

Mark Manson 1:14:34 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:34 If you go back to the, you know, our tribal, tribal roots versus today, it's, it's just constant. So anxiety and thinking about the future and depression and these things are probably increasing. Um, you talk about how a lack of something to strive for-

Mark Manson 1:14:48 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:48 ... is at the root cause of a lot of this, and how as life has got more comfortable-

Mark Manson 1:14:54 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:54 ... um, we've got into trouble-

Mark Manson 1:14:58 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:58 ... in, in a way.

Mark Manson 1:14:59 There's, you know, so a lot of that book revolved around kind of this interesting paradox. Like, there, there seems to be a very, very subtle trade-off between comfort and meaning. And kind of a very simple example is, like, if you imagine, if you remember, like, back, like, 100 years ago, right? Like, most of the population is living on farms, there's wars going on all the time, there's diseases all the time. It's very easy to know what to hope for. It's very easy to know what gives your life meaning. Like, (laughs) you gotta get the food harvested-

Steven Bartlett 1:15:36 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 1:15:36 ... for next season. Like, you gotta feed, you know, your eight kids or whatever you, whatever it is, or you gotta survive the war. And so, these kind of existential questions of, like, "What is my purpose?" And, like, "What am I here to do?" And, "Am I using my talents the most effectively?" Like, these don't even enter into the equation. Like, it's just pure survival.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:57 Mm-hmm.

Mark Manson 1:15:58 And, and this is kind of what I was referring to either, like, earlier, that, that, that why question is almost a privilege. Like, you, you almost earn it, right? A- and I think our society has become so affluent and comfortable that we're starting at that why question, right? So it's, it's if you're a young person today, you've grown up with this incredible technology, you have access to all of the information in the world, um, you're more educated than anybody in human history. You, if you are fortunate enough to go to university, like, you're gonna have tons and tons of career opportunities and job opportunities. So this question of, like, "Who am I? Why am I here? Why am I here on Earth? What am I meant to do? Is this the best use of my time?" Like, these are really fucking hard questions to answer. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:16:49 (laughs)

Mark Manson 1:16:49 And we're hitting people with them when they're, like, 16, 17. So it, to me, it makes sense. Like, it, and to me, it's like, it's a very silent cost of our affluence and comfort.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:02 Mm-hmm. Makes perfect sense to me.

Mark Manson 1:17:05 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:05 And so, you know, just in my own life, I think one of the most, um, dis- I've talked about this before, one of the most de-stabilizing, disorientating moments of my life was when I was, I had financial freedom.

Mark Manson 1:17:16 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:16 And, and in fact, it was on the day where someone offered me financial freedom. So it was when someone offered to buy my company, and I talk about this. I go home and I'm sat here thi- and then I'm thinking, "But then