Thierry Henry: I Was Depressed, Crying & Dealing With Trauma!

1. 0:00 – 2:28

   Intro

   1. THThierry Henry0:00

      I was lying for a very long time because society wasn't ready to hear what I had to say, but I will be honest with you, I was-

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:08

      Thierry Henry, record breaker, history maker. (laughs)

   3. THThierry Henry0:11

      Arsenal's record goal scorer. Throughout my career, I must have been in depression. Did I do something about it? No, but to understand the person that I became, you have to understand what happened early. When I was young, I didn't see a lot of love, affection, hugging. My dad, the first time he took me in his arms, said, "This baby will be an amazing football player." And from that point, I was programmed to succeed. My dad took control of my body, and it was tough. One day, we played a game, I was 13 years old, we won the game 6-nil, I scored the six goals, but it was always what I didn't do. "You miss that control, you miss that cross, you miss that this, you miss that that." And it can make you or break you. I decided it was going to make me.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:52

      Thierry Henry!

   5. THThierry Henry0:55

      I wasn't scared of failure. You're gonna fail. That's what shapes you. But I was more scared not to please people.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett1:00

      Even when you were playing at Arsenal and you were winning Golden Boots and The Invincibles, you were still trying to please your dad?

   7. THThierry Henry1:05

      Yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:06

      But were you happy?

   9. THThierry Henry1:10

      Oof. For so long, you think what you're doing is to please others. Football, money. We have a roof, but then I was about to leave again. My girlfriend, the kids, everybody starts to cry, and for the first time, I realized that they were crying for me. Not the football player, not the accolades, and I felt human.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett1:29

       If I was watching you, what would I have seen?

   11. THThierry Henry1:32

       Me crying almost every day, but it was the young Thierry.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:37

       What was he crying for? Quick one. This is really, really fascinating to me. On the back end of our YouTube channel, it says that 69.9% of you that watch this channel frequently over the lifetime of this channel haven't yet hit the subscribe button. I just wanted to ask you a favor. It helps this channel so much if you choose to su- subscribe. Helps us scale the guests, helps us scale the production, and it makes the show bigger. So if I could ask you for one favor, if you've watched the show before and you've enjoyed it and you like this episode that you're currently watching, could you please hit the subscribe button? Thank you so much, and I will repay that gesture by making sure that everything we do here gets better and better and better and better. That is a promise I'm willing to make you. Do we have a deal?

2. 2:28 – 6:01

   Your Early Context

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:28

      To understand a man, I know that you have to understand his context, especially his early context. I think we're all products of our earliest context. I certainly am. And having spent a very small amount of time with you, I know you are as well. What is that early context that people need to know to understand the man that sits in front of me today?

   2. THThierry Henry2:49

      I will second what you just said. I think you need to understand the struggles of someone to know exactly what the person is, and, uh, and what a person is about. Uh, so many, so many things that we can, we can start with. Well, I grew up in, um, in a modest household, if I was... if, if I can say that. For me at the time, it was the, it was the best, because I couldn't compare it to anything. I grew up with, with diversity. I grew up with there is food on the table, so therefore I love you. I take care of you, so therefore I love you. It wasn't so much, uh, communicated by hugs, by "I love you", by "Well done." More often than not, it was more something that I didn't do that was raised. Um, being from the Caribbean, my, my parents came early to France, which they call it the Continent. It is still France, because they are, they are French islands, Guadeloupe and Martinique, but we always say going to France.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett4:09

      Hmm.

   4. THThierry Henry4:09

      It was the dream for that, that era to go to the continent, to go to France to have a better life, uh, to try to make sure that we could have a better life. But when, when you, when you grew up there, you know, you, you, you dream of going to France because it's better, because it's, it's like, in bracket, the American dream, which actually it is the French dream. I'm sure it was the same for you. When you arrive in, in, in, uh, in France, "Make, make sure you don't make any mistakes. Make sure they don't come to us and say, 'Oh, those guys from the Caribbean,' you know, they just arrive and, you know, so don't, don't, don't speak Creole. Make sure you speak French well. Don't do this, don't do that." We need to fit in. We don't wanna get sent back-

   5. SBSteven Bartlett5:07

      Mm-hmm.

   6. THThierry Henry5:07

      ... to, to the Caribbean. We wanna keep the house that we have, we wanna keep the job that we have. Always that fear of getting sent back. Not so much for me, because I, I was born in France, but they always had that chip on their shoulder of "Make sure you, you don't make any mistakes." That's right. "Don't want anyone to say that my son was this, my son was that. Don't bring any problem, you know. We, we came here to work. We came here to have a better life, so please do not, do not spoil it." Kind of. So you always feel like you need to fit in, and not, and not, and not, uh, belong. I was, uh, I was kind of heavy at one point as a, as a, as a young kid, you know? But that's, that's the way it was. You listen to it, you, you grow up with it, um, and you, you just try to, to, to fit in at

3. 6:01 – 10:52

   The Streets You Grew Up On

   1. THThierry Henry6:01

      one point.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett6:02

      What was life like outside of the four walls that you lived in, outside of the home?

   3. THThierry Henry6:07

      Mm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett6:07

      The streets you grew up on?

   5. THThierry Henry6:09

      ... just a normal neighborhood, if I can use the word "normal" neighborhood, with everything that goes wi- with it. Uh, gangs, drugs, fights, happiness, diversity, different food, different religions. So I always felt that it was the best for me to understand what the world was.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett6:32

      How does it compare to the streets that your kids are growing up on?

   7. THThierry Henry6:35

      Oop. (laughs)

   8. SBSteven Bartlett6:40

      (laughs)

   9. THThierry Henry6:40

      What streets?

   10. SBSteven Bartlett6:43

       (laughs)

   11. THThierry Henry6:44

       The garden.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett6:46

       (laughs)

   13. THThierry Henry6:46

       The s- the grass. No concrete there. No, joking aside, you can't compare it, man. I mean... But if I had to do it again, I would do it again. I'll do it again because it made me... It, you know, i- i- is very diff- I can't even start to even compare anything. I did everything for them not to grow up there because, because you don't wanna grow up there.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett7:11

       Why?

   15. THThierry Henry7:13

       Because I didn't want them to go through that. It's weird for me to say that. It, it's kind of a cliché thing to say, that you don't really want to grow up there. If you ask anyone when they can compare it, they're like, "Oh, no, it's better to, to grow up there." They all say, "It's better to grow up there." But for me, like I said, I'll do it again because it made me understand a lot of things. Uh, acceptance, uh, living with others, to co-exist, uh, in, in any way, by the way. What you think of, or what you, what you wear, uh, what you, what... How you see the world. For me, you know, I, I, I couldn't care less that, you know, that, you know, in my, in my classroom, same thing. It was Senegalese, Malian, Caribbean, uh, North African, Asian, Italian, Polish roots, Portuguese roots. I couldn't care less about what you thought or not. I'm like, "This is my friend." Do you know what I mean? And, and, and I traveled also without traveling. Like, I went around the world staying in the same place. I had all the food in the world staying in the same place. So, this is why I will say it's kind of a cliché thing to say you don't wanna grow up there, but what it gives you also, uh, uh, what it gives you is second to none for me in terms of what you need in order to comprehend how the world is.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett8:44

       You described it before as growing up and only seeing cement.

   17. THThierry Henry8:50

       Yeah.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett8:50

       Concrete.

   19. THThierry Henry8:51

       I grew up, I, I... Um, it, it's kind of weird for me to say this to you, but if I don't see concrete for more than a week, I don't feel well. I know people like country and, uh, country life, and country life, and, and, and, and the sea. If I don't see my, my... If I don't see concrete, I don't feel well. I grew up in, I grew up in it. Some people will tell you that, "I can't see it anymore. I need, I need the sea, I need, I need..." Whatever. For me, no, I'm happy in a town, concrete, that's where I grew up. Uh, but, yes, you can encounter problems there, a lot. But I'll be honest with you, I was lucky enough. I have a older brother that's seven years older than me, so his friend, him, used to protect me because he was... Uh, have the same age as my town. So, I was born in '77. My town was built in '77.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett9:47

       Hmm.

   21. THThierry Henry9:48

       So, just imagine, my brother arriving in this town, he's older than me, was the first one that had a job, the first one, obviously, that had money, the first one that had a car, so he was well-respected. It, I know it sounds stupid now to say that, but he was well-respected. So I always stayed away from, from trouble, especially with my parents. But also, I, I don't know if you, if you had that, but when you have a certain gift and the guys in the neighborhood know that you might do something, you're also protected.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett10:21

       Interesting.

   23. THThierry Henry10:22

       Because they're like, "Leave this one alone. He might, he might do something. He's good at football." You know? So, "Let him be," kind of.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett10:32

       Interesting.

   25. THThierry Henry10:32

       So, I had my brother, I had that also. Yeah, because when you play football and s- and you're from a town, they're like, "Eh, a little kid is from our, our town." You know? So you have a kind of a unwritten protection-

   26. SBSteven Bartlett10:46

       Mm-hmm.

   27. THThierry Henry10:46

       ... in a way because you might do it. You know, you might, you might succeed.

4. 10:52 – 16:41

   Life Inside Your Home

   1. THThierry Henry10:52

   2. SBSteven Bartlett10:52

      Going back inside your home, what was, what was life like inside the walls of your home? I always think that we learn... You, you kind of gave a hint to it there. We learn emotion inside the walls of our home. I certainly didn't because there wasn't a lot of love in my parents' house, in terms of their love with each other, and we weren't necessarily a very affectionate family. So, I then struggled growing up as an adult because I didn't really learn affection. I don't-

   3. THThierry Henry11:19

      Oh.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett11:20

      You know?

   5. THThierry Henry11:20

      That, that's exactly what I referred to before. Uh, no, we didn't have that. My, my parents, my parents already divorced, uh, when I was seven, eight.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett11:29

      Oh, wow.

   7. THThierry Henry11:30

      So, dad left, at one point, the house. He was present when, uh, I had to go to training or games or coming around at times, but he left when I was, uh, eight. So, I technically grew up with my mom. Uh, but even when they were together, it's exactly what you said. I didn't see a lot of love, affection, hugging. Uh, you know, when I say that, I'm not complaining. Um, um, it wasn't hell. Please, by any means. But there wasn't, there wasn't a lot of love. That, that side of the, of the emotion, I didn't, I didn't know it. And even more so when you grow up in this type of neighborhood-... that, that amplify also what was happening at home. Like, it's more of a be rough, anger, uh, "You're the man, you're a man, be strong. Don't cry." You know, uh, uh, I didn't know how to, how to, to open up talking about a problem, maybe I need help. I don't, I, I didn't know those, those tools. I didn't know, I didn't have a door, first and foremost, to be able to know, uh, what it was. Did you, I'm sure you understand what I mean. Like, even until now when I hug my mom, it's weird.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett12:53

      Hmm. Yeah.

   9. THThierry Henry12:55

      Like, and I know people are gonna be like, "Come on." It's weird. You know, I'll, I'll, uh, you know, I won't stay too long. If you know what I mean.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett13:05

       Yeah, yeah.

   11. THThierry Henry13:05

       Like, I'm like, "Okay, that's enough now." I mean, maybe I was ... I went too far with it.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett13:09

       (laughs)

   13. THThierry Henry13:09

       Did I go too far? You know, because I don't know ... It, it stayed. It stayed. I didn't know, I didn't know how to deal with that. Uh, was, was I even aware of it? It's when then I went to other people's houses later on or when you speak with people and they tell you they have discussions about whatever. I'm like, "What? You guys discuss? You talk? All right. Must be nice."

   14. SBSteven Bartlett13:41

       Hmm.

   15. THThierry Henry13:42

       Not in a bad way. Understand me well. But that's how it was, you know? You get on with it, you get used to it, it becomes, uh, it becomes the norm.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett13:51

       Who could you speak to b- back then if anybody-

   17. THThierry Henry13:54

       Nobody.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett13:54

       Nobody?

   19. THThierry Henry13:55

       But understand me well. I didn't know that I had to speak to people to feel well. I didn't, I didn't know anything else. So I can't be sitting here saying, "Oh, I wish." I don't wish anything. I just didn't know that when you had tr- a problem, you talk about it, whatever it is. You had a fight, uh, you feel well about it, so you feel ... Or you, or you were ashamed about something. And then you go home, "How was your day?" "Good." A part of y- you've been, you know, something happened and the headmaster called at home or whatever it is, and then, and then you didn't do your homework or whatever, but if, if you ask me, "Are you okay?" "I'm okay."

   20. SBSteven Bartlett14:33

       Did you get more attention when things didn't go well, when you were naughty or, you know, maybe s-

   21. THThierry Henry14:38

       Oh, well, that, that's also the norm.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett14:40

       So you get attention for bad-

   23. THThierry Henry14:41

       That, that, yeah, yeah, that, that, that was ... This is where, you know, that stayed on, with me up, up until now. My atten- my attention to details comes from the fact that it was always what I didn't do that mattered. So if I walk in a room, I can straightaway see what's wrong, never what's good, which is, I'm working on. It did help me in my life and it still does help me, 'cause I can assess a situation pretty quick and see if something's gonna go south or not. Or if there is something wrong or whatever, I will notice it straightaway. You know-

   24. SBSteven Bartlett15:20

       That comes with a cost.

   25. THThierry Henry15:22

       Yeah, it does. Obviously it does. But like I said, like I said to you, I can't help myself. Like, it was always what I didn't do.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett15:31

       To who?

   27. THThierry Henry15:32

       To whoever, my mom, my dad. You know, it was tough. Caribbean, Caribbean way. It's just what, you know, you didn't do enough, you didn't ... My dad was very particular at times on, on how I was as, um, as a, as a, as a player, as a, as a little boy. It was always like, "You didn't do that well." So obviously when you hear that more often than not, that's what's gonna stay.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett16:01

       This is part of the sort of immigrant story of survival. When you come to a new place, parents aren't focused on self-actualization or happiness or fulfillment. They're focused on, you know, you better survive and you better get an education. And they're, they're, they're defense, they're almost in defense mode.

   29. THThierry Henry16:17

       You gotta fit.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett16:18

       Yeah.
5. 16:41 – 23:06

   When Did Football First Come Into Your Life?

   1. THThierry Henry16:41

   2. SBSteven Bartlett16:41

      Where did football come into this?

   3. THThierry Henry16:44

      Oh, early doors, early doors. My, my dad ... This, this is, and I said so many times, this is exactly what he said the first time he took me in his arm. He didn't say as people joke about it up until now, because that story, it's, it's known. But he didn't say that, you know, "Oh my God, he looks like me," or, "He looks, he doesn't look like me," or, "He has a big forehead or massive lips or big nose," or whatever you say. "Oh my God," or, "He's, hmm, he's not a good-looking one," or you know, whatever. It, it, the first thing he did say is, he put me in the air, this is what my uncles and aunties said, uh, he said, "This baby will be an amazing football player." This is what he said. And I know people will say, "Yeah, right." This is exactly what he said. Then he puts me down, then he put me down.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett17:38

      How'd you feel about that?

   5. THThierry Henry17:40

      Weird because, you know ... Weird and, and happy and at times why and thank God, but I wish ... And I will explain, because after that you can imagine what comes next.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett18:01

      He's gotta fulfill the prophecy.

   7. THThierry Henry18:04

      So what come next is that I was programmed to succeed. So whatever, what, what was going to happen was always going to happen. You know-... he, he took me on the field. I was a- around maybe 5, 6 to ... I, I, I re- I'm, I'm... It's, it's funny how you don't remember stuff at times that early, but I do remember the first time he took me on the field just to, just to strike the ball. Just to strike the ball. Just to strike the ball and that's about it. And from that point, it was always a mission. I was on a mission to, to, to fulfill his dream, to, to, to please him, to, and by the way, don't get me wrong, at the time, I don't know how much I liked it.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett18:58

      Mm-hmm.

   9. THThierry Henry18:59

      I, I sh- I, I cannot... I don't know. All I knew is I didn't hate it.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett19:07

       Was it your choice?

   11. THThierry Henry19:09

       Definitely not my choice. Early doors, what, what choice do you have anyway when you're young?

   12. SBSteven Bartlett19:14

       But are you-

   13. THThierry Henry19:14

       If your mom, if your mom wants to play piano, it's at one point you turn and you go like, "Hey, I, I, I've had enough of the piano." Or you, "I've had enough of the guitar," or "I've had enough of, of judo," or "I've had enough of track and field, Mom." You know? But this is what I'm saying, whether I thought about it or I didn't think about it, could I, could I have said that I didn't want it?

   14. SBSteven Bartlett19:40

       You know when he p- picked you up as a baby and said, "This baby is going to be an amazing football player," do you wish he said something else?

   15. THThierry Henry19:49

       It's a tough one. I don't know. I don't know because look at where I am. Look at what, what happened. Uh ...

   16. SBSteven Bartlett20:01

       Do you wish he added a sentence?

   17. THThierry Henry20:03

       Honestly? It's just, it's just ... When you hear what he said, that will ... You can understand in a way exactly, or what we're gonna talk about obviously. Do I wish that he said something else? Not at that moment knowing my dad, but do I wish that he, he, he behaved a certain way after? Yes. But what he said is what he said. You know, some people say different, different stuff and, and it didn't have an impact on your life or not. We're talking about it because I became a football player. Or I ... Maybe if I didn't, I wouldn't have been here to tell you my story also. So no, what he said, it's okay. It's what came after that had an impact, um, um, on, on me.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett21:01

       He takes you out onto the pitch, you're five or six years old. He gets you doing practice of kicking the ball, kicking the ball. I'm assuming at this time, because he's divorced your mother, your relationship with him, the center of your relationship sort of has this ... gravitates around football. That is the relationship.

   19. THThierry Henry21:18

       Mainly. I know that, you know, apart from holidays and, and, and, you know, I'm, I'm going to see him in the... 'Cause at one point, he went, he went back to live in, uh, in Guadeloupe. So I'm going to see him back there, or I know, uh, I was seeing him at the weekend or he's coming to get me for training. So it, it's, it's, it's even a ... It's like a double thing. I know I see him a lot thanks to football, and I know if I want to make him happy, it would be through football.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett21:51

       How, how, how did you know that?

   21. THThierry Henry21:54

       Well, first and foremost, because he said it, and I knew what he said. I knew what he said because everyone told me after what he said and the way he behaved. (laughs) I knew, like, if I, if I wanna make him happy, it can only be that.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett22:09

       And you wanted to make him happy?

   23. THThierry Henry22:11

       Yeah. It's, it's, it's, uh ... I think we had a disc- we had a discussion, I talked about it. But, uh, yeah. It's, it's ... I always say, and I think I said it, "What you fear will master you." So my fear and, and, and, and what was the most difficult thing for me to do as a, as a man and as a player ever was to please my dad. That was the hardest thing, uh, to deal with, to please my dad. And as you can imagine, I heard it after. "Thierry, you're great. Oh my God, oh my this, oh my that," uh, from everybody or whatever, but the little me never heard it. It was always what I didn't do. So obviously, you, you al- you, you, you always trying to, to, to, to get the, the nod, the approval, the, "You were great." "Oh,

6. 23:06 – 27:08

   "I Was Always Looking For Approval From My Dad"

   1. THThierry Henry23:06

      you know, you're progressing. Oh." It's always, "No, you miss this," or, "You miss that." Or ... So, for a very long time, up until not that long ago, always my thing was to please people, because I never got that access. That access was never granted when I was young on that subject. Understand well, on that subject. I was always looking for that approval, which when I was young never came.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett23:43

      At that age, do you then s- almost without knowing it start to associate your sense of self, your sense of worth with your performance on the pitch?

   3. THThierry Henry23:52

      (sighs)

   4. SBSteven Bartlett23:52

      Because that's ... It sounds like your, your father maybe intentionally or unintentionally has programmed this belief into you that if you do well on the pitch, th- then you are worthy.

   5. THThierry Henry24:05

      (sighs)

   6. SBSteven Bartlett24:05

      Or you're lovable. Is-

   7. THThierry Henry24:06

      I, I, I didn't even think about anything else than pleasing him. I wasn't even thinking about what he can do for me after. But because I was always trying to do that, then it carried on with everything. I never wanted to let my teammates down. I always wanted to please them. I always wanted to please the fans. I always wanted to please ... Because I, I grew up with wanting to please him.... so I never stopped. You're looking for, for something that came from, obviously, what happened to you young.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett24:36

      Yeah.

   9. THThierry Henry24:36

      So it helped me, because at one point it works, it works with, with sports, because i- i- it's great to stay on your, you know, to, to stay grounded some of the day, "I need to be the best." So that, that at one point connected well, but technically it didn't help the little me, or it didn't help so much the human being. It did to a degree help the a- the athlete, because it works. Like don't be, you know, too ha- too satisfied with what you have. Tomorrow's another day. You need to be good again. So I was like, "Okay, I need to, I need to be the best. I need to please everybody again today. I need to..." You know, my happiness and my sadness is, was always through people 'cause I didn't know. I didn't know, you know, what used to make me sad or not sad. It was always through, you know, like, "Oh, you sad?" "Oh, no." "You happy?" "Yeah." You know, but me, I was always like, kind of, I won't say dead. The word is not dead, but expressing my feelings was very difficult apart rage and anger. Rage and anger is easy.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett25:50

       Why?

   11. THThierry Henry25:50

       Because the same, it's something that I didn't do. So I'm, I'm getting upset, so it gives me f- fuel always.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett25:59

       He helped the athlete, but he didn't help the human.

   13. THThierry Henry26:01

       No.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett26:02

       What was the h- human missing? What should he have given?

   15. THThierry Henry26:07

       Like about everything. The human being was missing al- almost everything. But you need to understand, Steven, like, I started to... I left my house, I was 13. You know, people don't realize that.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett26:19

       13?

   17. THThierry Henry26:19

       Who are you? Who are you at, uh, 13 years old, you leave your house and you al- you're already dealing with the pressure of succeeding because you, you, you're trying to enter Clairefontaine. So already here is competition.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett26:34

       What is Clairefontaine for people that don't know?

   19. THThierry Henry26:36

       Clairefontaine is a, uh, it's a pre-school, pre-formation. You, you, you have to pass four f- so one weekend, you come. They take the best 20, then they do the same in around, not far from Paris. Then the weekend after that, you have the 20 from that place, 20 from that place, 20 from Paris. Then you bring it down to 40, you bring it down to 20, and eventually, obviously the 20 goes to that school of Clairefontaine to teach you how to play football. And you go to school from, by the way, 8:00 to 3:00. After that, you play football.

7. 27:08 – 31:43

   "I Had No Time To Be A Child"

   1. THThierry Henry27:08

   2. SBSteven Bartlett27:08

      For people that don't know as well, 'cause I was reading about Clairefontaine, it's, it's considered to be the elite-

   3. THThierry Henry27:14

      Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett27:14

      ... sort of academy in France. I read that around 1,600 try out for the program and out of which, 23 are selected per year.

   5. THThierry Henry27:22

      Yeah, yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett27:22

      So that's, this is like the SAS of football in France.

   7. THThierry Henry27:25

      It is, it is. And a lot of players came from there. Me. I, I... If I give you me, Anelka, Mbappé, Gallas, you know, w- we, we, you know, Papin. Je- I don't know if you remember Jean-Pierre Papin, but a lot of players came from, from that academy. So quite-

   8. SBSteven Bartlett27:41

      My friend in the, in our team here is French, and he was w- with us in Paris when we, when we first met. And he said, "If you go to Clairefontaine, your chance of becoming a professional footballer is like 95%."

   9. THThierry Henry27:50

      Eh?

   10. SBSteven Bartlett27:50

       It's like 90%. He's like, "That's the elite."

   11. THThierry Henry27:53

       Yes, but i- i- in 95, yeah, you have a chance, but not a lot of those guys. It's still very minimum the guys that made it.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett28:03

       Oh, interesting.

   13. THThierry Henry28:04

       F- the guys that went there, still very minimum. This is why, you know, the usual 2% succeeds in 1998 don't. You know, to be part of the 2%, it's very difficult. But to go back to what we're saying, it does have an impact on the human being, because you didn't have a, a, a normal, uh, young life. You d- y- y- it's not the same. What you're exposed to right from the start is very difficult to deal with.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett28:39

       There was no time to be a child, it sounds like.

   15. THThierry Henry28:41

       No, not at all. And like I said, you don't think about it. You think... I think about it now. This is why I said to you, I can now see that the human being is missing a lot.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett28:52

       Have you learned a lot of w- these insights from watching your kids get to just play and be kids?

   17. THThierry Henry28:59

       Um, as... I use that lines, uh, often. You know, I got educated and my kids are re-educating me. You know, uh, my kids, uh, save me. They are saving me every day. Every day I see something new that teaching me to be a dad, a better dad. Not a better dad than my dad, this is not what I'm saying, myself a better dad. And, and they're opening doors that I, that I, I didn't know how to deal with, you know? It's, it's, it's, it's, it's very... You know, sometimes when you like... I can see sometimes when they look at me how much they love me and how much, like, they, they, they're like, "Oh, dad." But if they only knew, actually I look at them the same way. You know, thanks for being here, because, because it would have been tough. 'Cause I... You know, as an, as an athlete, as long as you stay within that frame, you can feed whatever you need to feed to satisfy that little, that little thing that you have, your ego, your, your, your... avoiding your problems-

   18. SBSteven Bartlett30:13

       You distract yourself.

   19. THThierry Henry30:14

       ... because, because you prefer to be the athlete than the human being. Because then the athlete, it's easier. You know what to do. Well, I knew what to do. Even if it was painful, whatever, I knew what to do. This is why when you go there, you're like, "Oh no." Uh, so it's easy for a little while when you have your career.But, I think, uh, I'm f- I think you remember that, as an a- as a- as a- as an athlete, and I- and I say it and I will maintain it, you die when you stop. The athlete, the competitor, dies. I can never play again in the Prem, I can never play for France anymore. I don't care what people say, "You can play football." Not at that level. Not competing the way I used to compete, and that part of me died. So, uh, people don't teach you to die. So now, you are going to face all your problems, because you could put them on the side because you're playing games, because you have other things that will cover that. But once- once everything stops, we're not used to be at home. We're not used to deal with a normal life. Since I'm 13, I never had a normal life. Understand me well, I'm not complaining. I'm just saying, to go back like to the n- to the real world, it's a- it's a shock to the system, because you're actually technically not equipped to live in that

8. 31:43 – 35:36

   Life After Football, Trying To Adapt To Normal Life

   1. THThierry Henry31:43

      world.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett31:44

      It's an interesting comparison to make, but when you hear people talk in these terms, you think of someone that had been incarcerated in jail, or you think of someone that went off to maybe the military and then returned after war to a normal life and couldn't sort of acclimatize to what it meant to just sit in silence alone. Um, and in many respects, although those examples are quite extreme in many cases, your experience of going s- being a football player s- since you were five years old, being drafted into this elite academy at 13 years old, and then spending the rest of your career in sort of institutions where it- high performance institutions, where as you say, like you were distracted from having to think about being a human and you were an athlete. Your identity was an athlete. Your expectations were based on being an athlete. Your sense of validation came from being an athlete. And suddenly, (snaps fingers) boom.

   3. THThierry Henry32:40

      It's over. Look, actors often go into depression or problem when they go into a character for a movie.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett32:52

      Mm-hmm.

   5. THThierry Henry32:53

      Because at one point they don't know who they are anymore. They- they become that character. So when you put that cape as a player for more than 20 years, and you have to be what you have to be for people, because you might transcend them, because of what you transmit, the feeling that you have of your club and with the fans, that- that- that- that, you know, that almost like you're like, "Yeah, I belong, when I had to fit in for a very long time. Now I belong." When that goes, can't wear that cape anymore. And when you wear that cape you feel different responsibilities, performing, losing, winning, doesn't matter, but you know the next day what you need to do in order to compete. Put the cape on. When you leave that cape, it's like you're naked. Like, "Oh, wait, I'm gonna admit it. Now they see my weakness. They see my things." You see your weakness. You feel it. It's different. You know, when it's- it's like whatever it is for you, that when you put your cape you're like, "Okay."

   6. SBSteven Bartlett34:04

      Mm-hmm.

   7. THThierry Henry34:04

      You know? Put it down, you're like, "Oh, I don't like- I like- I don't like that so much." You know? So how do you deal with that? This is why I mean, when I say you die, obviously it's strong, understand me well, with what's happening in- in the world at the minute is maybe- it is strong to say. But that part of me died, never come back. That can never come back. A singer can sing. Can have- you can have your concert up until I can't- I- I can't- I can't play anymore. Have to deal with that. And- and that, it's tough to deal with. It's tough to deal with because that- that's your medicine. You can't take it anymore. So there's another life, there's obviously it's- it's not the end, uh, but you need to- to- to learn how to be at home. To connect with, uh, your missus, to connect with- with your kids. 'Cause the way of connecting before was very minimal, when you think about it. You're never at home. So now you- you- you arrive at home, when you stop your career, you're like a guest. But that's what you do, you guys, when I used to play. You know?

   8. SBSteven Bartlett35:24

      Mm-hmm.

   9. THThierry Henry35:25

      It's- it's not... Understand me well, I'm not complaining, I'm not saying, uh, you know, people have, you know, I understand. I'm just trying to explain what I went through, what I'm going through.

9. 35:36 – 37:37

   Relationship With Arsene Wenger & How He Became A Father Figure

   1. SBSteven Bartlett35:37

      Arsene became, it seems from reading your story, a bit of a substitute father for you at one point, when you moved to AS Monaco after-

   2. THThierry Henry35:45

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett35:45

      ... Clairefontaine?

   4. THThierry Henry35:46

      Yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett35:46

      So you were 17 years old when you moved there.

   6. THThierry Henry35:48

      Mm-hmm.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett35:49

      Arsene's the manager at, um, Monaco at the time. Does he- 'cause, uh, this relationship you have with Arsene, it- you know, at that time you go off to Monaco, I think there's a little bit of a- sort of a disconnect from your father in some way. Is that accurate?

   8. THThierry Henry36:03

      I had to... Yeah. Yeah, well, the thing is, uh, how do you tell your dad that- that he needs to step aside in order for me to have my career, it's my life, when he did everything for you at that moment, as a dad by the way? But how- how do you make him understand that now he needs to fly- I need to fly alone?

   9. SBSteven Bartlett36:30

      Is that a conversation? Is it-

   10. THThierry Henry36:31

       No, it wasn't a conversation. No, it wasn't that- that- that- that- that never happened. It just...... I made him, I made him understand.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett36:43

       You made him understand?

   12. THThierry Henry36:43

       Yeah. The look, (laughs) the, the, the, the, the, you know, making, you know, making sure that he was understanding that he couldn't come anymore, by, you know, if he's asking me for some tickets, I wasn't maybe sending them at times or stuff like that, you know, because talking was tough.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett37:06

       So you indirectly-

   14. THThierry Henry37:09

       Yeah, you do.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett37:09

       ... rejected him?

   16. THThierry Henry37:10

       You do. You do. No, i- it's not, it's not rejecting, but i- it was, it was too much at one point.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett37:17

       What was too much?

   18. THThierry Henry37:18

       Well, the pressure of, of, of pleasing him, the, the constant... He was always there, which was good, don't get me wrong, but it's like for everybody, you're not going to be always on top of your kids in whatever the... Because at the end of the day, you, you, you, you, you don't help them. T- t- I needed to make mistakes by myself.

10. 37:37 – 41:19

    My Dad Was Always Putting Me Down

    1. THThierry Henry37:37

    2. SBSteven Bartlett37:37

       Have you got specific memories of when you thought you played well, but he just...

    3. THThierry Henry37:43

       Oh, so many. I mean, it's, that one also is very famous. (laughs) In France, people still talk to me about it. They still, when they see me in the street, they s- they say the name of the team that I played against. Yeah, it's a very famous one, it's a true story. Uh, we played a game, I was, uh, 15, uh, already then you can see if someone is kind of good or not good. Uh, we won again six-nil, I scored the six goals, and, uh, on our way back, you know, so I step, I step out of the, um, of the game, and I knew, I'm sure you're the same. If I'm, if I was like this, I swear, you beli- you believe me or you don't believe me, the aura of my dad, I knew even without looking at him if, if, if the man was happy or not.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett38:30

       So if you're turned around, you could, you could feel it.

    5. THThierry Henry38:33

       I, even, b- b- even before. Like, he was that powerful.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett38:36

       You could just feel his energy.

    7. THThierry Henry38:37

       I could feel it.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett38:39

       And he wasn't happy.

    9. THThierry Henry38:40

       I t- I, I turn and I saw he-, and I, I could, I can tell you i- any posture, and I knew if, if he was happy, not happy, or, or, uh, or, or whatever. So we arrive in the car, you know, silence. So I'm like, "Shall I talk? Shall I not talk?" Okay. Like, you know, so, yeah, we, this is exactly how we were. So he goes like, "You happy?" So I'm like, "What shall I answer?" "Um, y- yeah." "Yeah, but you shouldn't because you missed that thing, you missed that thing, you missed that control, you missed that cross, you missed that this, you missed that that, you missed that..." Then I arrive at my mom's house, I'll always remember, he dropped me at my mom's house. I go up, and I'm walking like this. And Mom is like, "Did you lose?" (laughs) I said, "No, we won six-nil and I scored the six goals." And then she looked at me going in... Yeah, it was often like that.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett39:55

        Why, why was he doing that, in your view?

    11. THThierry Henry39:58

        I don't know. Like I always say, you know, when I tried to, uh, come to, you know, to come to terms with it, um, but you need to understand something, like, my dad never read, my dad never traveled, my dad knows only one way, his way, and what is being told. And if, if I compare what, o- how I've been brought up to how he's been brought up, there's a world. So for him, he already, you know, put that down.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett40:31

        Mm-hmm.

    13. THThierry Henry40:31

        So y- you can't, you can't be upset with someone that tries to do his best and educate you with his tools. I don't have the same tools. My box of tools has more tools, and my kids will have more tools than me. So you can't, you can't, y- you know, you can't be upset with that one, you have to come to terms with how it was, that's how it was. Now, you need to accept it. But digesting it is when it becomes tricky, because you can always accept everything, but the impact that it has on you after, it's on you to deal with that.

11. 41:19 – 46:44

    What Were The Values That Made You A Success?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett41:19

       The values he, he gave you and you learnt growing up, up until you, you know, you ultimately move on to, you know, Juventus and Arsenal, the values that made you successful, in hindsight when you look back, what are those values that are transferrable to any industry or any discipline that put you where you are? Because, listen, you know, people, people can be born with great genetics, they can be born with whatever, but that isn't enough. It's been proven time and time again that that isn't enough to reach the highest of the highs and have a statue of yourself, you know, over there in London. There's gotta be a mindset, a character, or values underneath there that creates that legend.

    2. THThierry Henry42:03

       There are so many things, but, that I understood and there's su- you know, you talk about Arsenal, you, uh, a lot of guys that I came, uh, across in my career helped me develop something that was in me. I do believe that we always have, we all have something in. Now, are we going to develop it is a different ballgame. As you know, my upbringing was rough, strict, um, but it, it can go both ways.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett42:36

       Yeah.

    4. THThierry Henry42:37

       It can make you or break you. I decided it was going to make me.... but I had to put my dad on the side at one point, I had to put everybody on the side at one point and concentrate to the path. Now, we're talking about... It's a different, it's a different topic now. We're gonna talk about what I became and, uh, in bracket, the animal I became when I was a player. That's, that's a different ballgame. That comes with seeing Dennis Bergkamp every morning, working hard. That comes with seeing all those players that want stuff working out, and I'm looking at it and I'm like, "How am I going to move those guys?" If you add, obviously, what my dad gave me, "Never be satisfied. Do more." It's always what you didn't do well. You know, obviously, I had a certain attribute, I was fast, that's the only attribute I had when I was young, I was fast. You have guys that are technical or see the game or whatever, awareness or whatever. I was just fast. So I had to work really hard. And I know people will say, "Oh my God, okay, that cliché sentence." No. I had to work really hard every day. My left f- my left foot was poor. Uh, header? Forget about it. And it still, I still didn't manage to, to be better (laughs) during my career. I got a tiny bit better, but I worked... Free kick, I go and take a free kick. Uh, anything. You know, repetition is key. Y- repetition, I always say, creates habit, you know? So I knew, I knew I wasn't as gifted as so many players, although I did everything that you're supposed to do. I went to Clairefontaine, I play under-15 France, under-16, under-17, under-18, under-19, under-21, first team. So people, when they see my path, they always go like, "Yeah, I mean... (scoffs) "

    5. SBSteven Bartlett44:24

       Not true.

    6. THThierry Henry44:25

       "It was always going to be..." No, not true. Not true. I always had to battle, but when you know that the hardest thing that I had to do was to please my dad, the rest was nothing for me. In brackets, not disrespecting anything that happened in my career, but that was so easy compared to what I had to do in order to please the, the old man. And my young self is still waiting for that approval.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett44:54

       Still?

    8. THThierry Henry44:55

       Yeah. I'm trying to connect with the little man. It's a, you know, I'm going to a different discussion now, but I'm still trying, I'm trying to connect with the little man. But you go back... I go back to, sorry, to what you asked me. What did it teach me? It's obviously to never give up, do more. But there's something that was missing, that I understood late. And I think, for me, the best leader you can be needs... The leader or the greatest leader do have that. And I was missing that for a very long time, which in, in sport, because you have to play a game and you have to... you're not here to, you know, "Oh, you have a problem, well, let's have a talk about it." You know? When you play, you play. It's tough during the season, it's tough during a game, it's tough. But vulnerability and empathy was missing. Those are the two greatest point of a leader for me. When you show vulnerability, and obviously you show empathy, you, you, you can go places. You can go places because if your group knows that you're like them and they can relate, although you might be... as... you can... y- you might be hard as you know what, they, they will follow you. But in football, because of how it is, because it is taboo sometimes to be vulnerable, it is taboo to show emotion, you know, the emotion, that emotion, the crying, the this, the that, especially in my time, in a dressing room, you couldn't say anything. It's a bit more accepted now if you say, "I'm not well mentally." It's, it's... a- and, and, and thank God for that-

    9. SBSteven Bartlett46:36

       Mm-hmm.

    10. THThierry Henry46:37

        ... by the way. Uh, but all the above that you, that you can imagine, for me, it was always trying to be the best version that

12. 46:44 – 52:50

    At My Core I Was Always Trying To Please My Dad

    1. THThierry Henry46:44

       I can be every day.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett46:45

       Did you think you were going to be the player you become?

    3. THThierry Henry46:48

       No. How do you, how do you-

    4. SBSteven Bartlett46:53

       Yeah.

    5. THThierry Henry46:54

       ... how do you... How do you... Look, I just wanted to please my dad. How am I going to think that I... you fast-forward, I gonna have a statue in front of the, the, the Emirates. I mean, how?

    6. SBSteven Bartlett47:09

       Even when you were playing at Arsenal and you were winning them Golden Boots and you were winning everything and the Invincibles and all of that, you were still trying to please your dad, at your core?

    7. THThierry Henry47:17

       In a way, yeah, I couldn't say it. That constant look of, to not name a movie, The Pursuit of Happiness or the p- The Pursuit of Pleasing People.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett47:27

       I love that movie.

    9. THThierry Henry47:28

       So I'm, I'm, I'm... Yeah. But I wa- that, that, that was my... tha- that wa- th- that's... It's kind of weird when... I always say, "When your, your medicine is your poison," because you always chase that.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett47:44

        Were you happy?

    11. THThierry Henry47:45

        Um, I don't know, I never asked myself that question. Couldn't care less. I just couldn't care less. Like you saw it, you s- I mean, you saw me play, so I couldn't care less. You saw me, I was... My face was always hard. Was always... You know, I could smile. It's, it's funny, I always say, and this is what I always said to people, and in France they used to have a go at me 'cause I never used to celebrate my goals. I always used to stand in a stoic manner, way or, you know, always proud or, or rage. But people never lo- used to see when I used to give an assist, I always used to smile. Pleasing. S- Watch. Assist, smile. Goal, rage. It's weird, huh?

    12. SBSteven Bartlett48:34

        Mm-hmm.

    13. THThierry Henry48:35

        But pleasing again. Giving. I was always, alwa- always smiling. You see me even now, I smile. But goal? No. Goal was just like, "That's what you have to do, man."

    14. SBSteven Bartlett48:45

        'Cause you're making the player that you've given the goal happy, I guess. You're giving them... It's interesting because people who grew up in environments where they had a parent or parents that they were trying to please often tend to exhibit two traits. One of them is being an empath. What the term empath is like being so emotionally sensitive-

    15. THThierry Henry49:04

        Mm-hmm.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett49:04

        ... to how everyone's feeling in every room all the time, because that started at a young age with, you know-

    17. THThierry Henry49:07

        Mm-hmm.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett49:08

        ... cons- you know.

    19. THThierry Henry49:08

        Mm-hmm.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett49:09

        And then the second is people-pleasing. And it, they always say people-pleasers start with trying to please one or more of their parents, and it's funny, there's a cliché about comedians, right? Comedians w- w- whenever I sit with a comedian, the question is always, "Which one of your parents was depressed? Which one of the parents were you trying to put a smile on their face?"

    21. THThierry Henry49:27

        Mm.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett49:27

        And this is cliché that comedians are depressed, whereas when I've interviewed comedians, they say, "No, no, no, no, no, it's my dad that was depressed, and at four I was trying to make him smile."

    23. THThierry Henry49:35

        Mm-hmm.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett49:35

        And I, and it's, and that's... And it's so interesting that in your case as well, it was a very similar thing. Th- this question, though, like, all these great achievements, you know, won the World Cup, you know, became the Invincible team, all these trophies, the height, the peak of your powers, and you can't tell me whether you were happy or not.

    25. THThierry Henry50:01

        No. No, because for me, I did what I had to do. Uh-

    26. SBSteven Bartlett50:04

        When you went home, though, when you went home after a great game-

    27. THThierry Henry50:07

        (exhales)

    28. SBSteven Bartlett50:07

        ... you get home. If I'm a fly on the wall in that room, do I see a man that's happy?

    29. THThierry Henry50:14

        Yes, for a little while, and then you, because that's how the game is, you know, I- I was talking about Gael Clichy, which is my assistant, and have, you know, played at Man City and, and, and Arsenal, uh, with me. The other day, we were in camp with the national team, obviously being my assistant, said to me, "Thierry, do you remember what you did one day?" I'm like, (blows raspberry) I'm like, "I don't know, man." He said, "We won the league." So he won the league with us when we stayed, uh, Invincible. He said to me, "Okay, uh, where, where is the party tonight we going and everything?" I said, "I'm not going to the, to no party tonight." He said, "Yeah, but everybody's going." I said, "Yeah, but I'm not everybody." Stayed home. He said, "Why?" I said, "We have the Euro. I'm going home." Everyone went to the party, I didn't. So on this then, for me, it was like, "Hey, I have the Euro."

    30. SBSteven Bartlett51:13

        Just the next thing.
13. 52:50 – 57:36

    Who Taught You To Love?

    1. THThierry Henry52:50

       also.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett52:52

       When you went off to, when you went off to Barcelona, an adjustment period took place, and you were married at the time, and then you went through a divorce.

    3. THThierry Henry53:01

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett53:01

       This question of love comes back into the picture. You know, if you'd grown up in that household where your parents got divorced when you were seven or eight years old, you know, you look back, h- who taught you? And then you were in academy at 13.

    5. THThierry Henry53:15

       Mm-hmm.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett53:15

       So you get married, your marriage falls apart when you're in Barcelona. Who taught you how to be in a relationship?

    7. THThierry Henry53:24

       Nobody.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett53:25

       Or to love a woman?

    9. THThierry Henry53:26

       You- y- n- nobody. You, you deal with it, you learn, you fail. Uh, again, you know, you, uh, you mentioned it, I arrive at Barcelona, I arrive injured, I was divorcing, adapting to a new life, new language, new team, new way of playing. People don't care. I don't, I don't ask people to care, by the way, because that's how it is. But it's not easy. It was tough. It was tough. Don't see, you don't s- you know, I couldn't see my daughter for a little while, you know, and people expect you to perform. So what do you do? You put the cape on. Put the cape on because that's the only way, so, okay, you put the cape on, you're like, okay, you... And you do feel that everything goes away. It's a feeling, though. It's an impression. It's a lie. But when I put that cape on, I feel like you can't see that I'm hurt. I feel like you can't see because now people see the player. So in a, in a, in a, in a weird way, you want people to know, and you want people to know how you feel, that you're not equipped right now to perform. And in, in, in the same time, you, you put it on because you don't want them to know. S- you, d'you know what I mean?

    10. SBSteven Bartlett54:46

        100%.

    11. THThierry Henry54:47

        It's k- it's k- it's kind of weird. You're like, "You know what?"... "Let me put the cape on," and then they will attack the player.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett54:53

        You want help, but you don't wanna ask for help.

    13. THThierry Henry54:55

        You do, but you don't. It's kind of weird. You, you want, you want someone to go, like, "Oh, this is what's happening to him." And you're like, "Thank you." But you don't wanna say it.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett55:05

        What were the symptoms? You said the word hurt. If I... Again, if I was a fly on the wall in that room in Barcelona when you were alone, what was going on in your head?

    15. THThierry Henry55:14

        Well, just imagine I like to please people. And everything everywhere was a no no. I wasn't playing well. "You're divorcing, so ... You, you..." I'm feeling I'm letting my daughter down. I'm letting the fans down. I'm let- letting my friends down, myself down, everybody down. Just imagine now I am, I'm wanting to please people, and it wasn't happening. So tough. Cape on, cape off, tough. But the easiest way to deal with it was to put the cape on.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett55:47

        When the cape's not on, what are your thoughts saying to you at that time?

    17. THThierry Henry55:52

        Well, you kind of, uh, as a human being, like, "Did I make the right choice?" Uh, you know, and I said it, I think, uh, at that particular moment, football wasn't really my priority if the cape wasn't on, obviously. But when the e- even before, when the cape wasn't on, it was still football. You need to rest, you need to this, you need to that. But there it wasn't because it's- it's actually technically ... And this is not me having a go at my dad, or the relationship, or- or- or anything, but I was like, you know when you swear that if you get married you'll never get divorced because, you know, and you- you- you know very little about life obviously. And I was like, "I know." This is exactly what happened to me or what's happening to me. "What are you doing?"

    18. SBSteven Bartlett56:41

        You're repeating ...

    19. THThierry Henry56:42

        Yeah, to yourself, like, you know, you- you kind of like, "What are you doing?" This is why I said, I said it so many times and I will say it again, my biggest fear is not to be a good dad. And so I was go... In my mind, that doesn't mean ... It's not because you're gonna divorce, you're gonna be a bad dad. But in my mind, "I'm letting people down. I'm a bad dad, I'm a bad whatever." Do you understand what I mean?

    20. SBSteven Bartlett57:08

        Mm-hmm.

    21. THThierry Henry57:08

        In my way of thinking, I'm like ... And that's my biggest fear. Still- still now is to- to- to- to... you know, 'cause I'm learning to be a dad, like everybody by the way (laughs) you see-

    22. SBSteven Bartlett57:22

        Mm-hmm.

    23. THThierry Henry57:22

        ... because, uh, you know, that's- that's ... But, you know, some doors I didn't have, some emotions I didn't have. I wasn't often at home, and still not often at home.

14. 57:36 – 59:34

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    1. SBSteven Bartlett57:36

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15. 59:34 – 1:02:48

    The Moment You Realized Your Playing Career Was Over

    1. SBSteven Bartlett59:34

       the episode. When did you... W- what was the moment when you realized that your playing career was behind you? You know, you obviously went off to America, um, for a while, and then, uh, you transferred to the New York Red Bulls and then you retired at, sort of, 37 years old. But was there a moment where you realized, a day where you thought, "Do you know what? I'm- I'm not gonna be on the pitch as a professional player anymore?"

    2. THThierry Henry1:00:00

       Uh, yeah, there was a day, um, and you might laugh, but my daughter was at home in New York. I suffered of a Achilles problem for more than 10 years, both side. Uh, I s- I was, I was in pain every morning, really. Pain. Pain was never going away. All day, both side, both of my Achilles. Uh, just, I just... Some- sometimes I felt a bit better, sometimes no. But every morning I was in pain, afternoon, night, for 10 years. So I'm at home with my daughter, and she comes, she comes close to me and she touches me and she goes, "You it." And she ran. I wanted to run, I couldn't.I wanted to run, I couldn't. I looked at her and said, "Hey, you won." I couldn't chase her. And I stopped and went, "What are you doing?" Like, I couldn't un- I just couldn't. I- I, I'm not even joking, Steven. I, I, I ... she run and I just couldn't move. "What are you doing?" That's when I knew I couldn't handle, handle pain anymore 'cause this is the way it is. People ... Forget about anything that you can think of. You need to love pain to be an athlete. And I know no pain, no this, whatever, all the, you know, the-

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:26

       The correct sensitive-

    4. THThierry Henry1:01:27

       ... oh my ... No, this is real. You need to love pain however, mentally, physically. Love it. You need to love it. If not, stay where you are.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:42

       And then you retire eventually at 37 years old from professional football.

    6. THThierry Henry1:01:48

       Yeah.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:48

       What happens then?

    8. THThierry Henry1:01:50

       I'll, I, uh ... I was, in a way, happy. I'll tell you why. Because I stopped. Some people stop because of injuries. Some people stop because of different stuff. I stopped. It was on my terms. I stopped. You know, it's better than ... People were like, "Thierry, you still can play." Oh, I knew I could still play, but I stopped, so I didn't have a problem with stopping, like, you know, when, you know, the fear that day. I didn't have a problem with that. But I didn't know what's going to occur, to come after. You prepare yourself, you s- you pass your badges, you, you know, you prepare yourself mentally or, and whatnot. But then, how do you fit the competitor? How do you fit the guy that loves to please when he can do it, or not, every three days? How?

16. 1:02:48 – 1:12:09

    The Moment I Realized I Was Struggling With Life

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:48

       When did you know that you were struggling?

    2. THThierry Henry1:02:54

       When I was aware because ... the cape was always my thing, to make sure that I ... when I felt the struggle coming, cape. So, I knew it before, but I was lying to myself. I was going to make sure that that feeling wasn't going to go too far.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:20

       Mm.

    4. THThierry Henry1:03:22

       So I put the cape on. But then, when you're not a player anymore, you can't put that cape anymore. So then everything starts to creep in. You know, you think, you go back to what happened, what you became, how you were with people, how you behaved with people. Were you a good guy, not a good guy? Was it necessary sometime, not necessary? You start to re- to replay everything in your head on how you were, what you did, an impact you had on people, the impact that you had on yourself. What type of person you want to be for your kids. And that's when it becomes scary 'cause you don't have the answers 'cause usually you have the answers for everything. Thierry, tomorrow, "Oh, that game, okay, I, I gonna work out on that, work on this. Gonna be better next weekend. I gonna work on this, I gonna work on that. Don't worry about it, gonna work. You know what? Next year, next year you'll see, I come back. My left foot's gonna be sound." My this, my this, my this, my that. I had answers. Now all I had is questions. That's about it. Too many questions, brain thinking overthinking, and when you overthink, usually you d- you don't go to the positive thinking when you overthink. You, you, you tend to bring yourself down and, and whatever wasn't good, uh, uh, in your life, you, you, you try to find a way to make sure that you, you can cover it. But the cape wasn't around anymore, so how do you do that?

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:01

       Were you sad?

    6. THThierry Henry1:05:02

       No. Sad, no. No.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:05

       What was ...

    8. THThierry Henry1:05:05

       Sad, sad would not be the, the word. I wasn't sad, but I was trying to find an explanation of, of what happened to me regardless of what it is, 'cause I'm a guy that likes to have an explanation. I need, I need to know why. And when you cannot answer it, it is, it is annoying. I find that annoying when I cannot ... And, and not everything has an explanation, but this is the way I am. I always need to have a logical or illogical explanation. Even if your explanation is not logical, explain something to me. So when I cannot understand and comprehend what's happening to me, it's a tough one.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:43

       What's happening to you in that moment post-reti- retirement or what happened to you in your career?

    10. THThierry Henry1:05:49

        Everything. Everything-

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:50

        Let me-

    12. THThierry Henry1:05:50

        ... came at once, especially, uh, during COVID time because that's when I really stopped. 'Cause again, I was trying to find a way to find that cape, so you pass your bad- your badges, you, you, you becoming a coach. You, you try to do something to make sure that you're not going to th- to, to, to think about what has been chasing me for a very long time. When are you going to deal with what happened to you? Whatever it is, huh?

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:16

        Mm-hmm.

    14. THThierry Henry1:06:16

        To you, to me, to whoever. But we, we, we, we tend to run instead of facing our problems. That's what we do all the time. You stay busy. You, you try to avoid the problem or not think about it. Uh, but then COVID happen. And when COVID happen, why are you running? Why are you running? What are you doing? I was, uh, you know, isolated in, uh, in, uh, Montreal for a year. Um, not for a year. I would say, you know, whenever the, you know, three month and another two month or whatever it was, and not being able to see my kids for a year was tough.... was tough because, bah, I mean, it's the title, right? So I don't, (laughs) I don't need to even explain that one. Um, but yeah, it was tough because it had to... Something like that had to happen to me for me to understand vulnerability, empathy, crying. Uh, you know, understand that emotions are emotion, just don't become it. Uh, you know, it's, you know, anger is normal. Uh, jealousy is normal, but don't become jealous. Anger is normal, don't become angry. You know, I, I, I couldn't, I couldn't, like, if I... If... Before, if I, if I feel anger, man, I become angry.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:38

        If I was a... Again, the question I asked earlier, if I was a fly on the wall in quarantine watching you-

    16. THThierry Henry1:07:43

        Oof.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:45

        ... what would I have seen?

    18. THThierry Henry1:07:46

        Me crying almost every day for no reason. Tears were coming alone. Why? I don't know. But maybe they were waiting for... They were there for a very long time. I was crying for everything. Everything. W- While I'm watching a movie that's not even really sad, but I'm crying, you know? Everything. I don't know if that needed to come out. I don't know if... You know, it was weird in a good way, in a good way that there was some stuff that I couldn't control. And, and to be fair, I didn't try to control them, and that's, you know... And I couldn't, couldn't hide them. I couldn't suppress them, and, and do you want to even suppress them, really? You know, but you've been told since you're young, whether it was at home or in your job, "Don't be that guy, man. Don't show that you're, you're vulnerable. If you, if you cry, what, what they gonna think?" Which is, it's not the end of the world, but for me, like, if, if, if, uh... When I was younger, I saw someone crying, I'm like, "What are you doing, man?" You know? (laughs) I'm like, "Really?" type of thing. So it was... Yeah, yeah, you would have seen me crying. You would have seen me... Te- technically, it, it wasn't me. It was, uh, it was the young me. It was me, understand what I'm saying-

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:15

        Mm-hmm.

    20. THThierry Henry1:09:15

        ... but it was the young, the young Thierry there.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:20

        What was he crying for?

    22. THThierry Henry1:09:22

        Well, for everything he didn't get, approval. It's kind of weird to say that, approval. I got that, I still get that all the time, but I didn't wanna hear it. You know, uh, it wasn't, it wasn't... Like, it was coming, but not fitting my little man. So my little man at one point took control of that body, and, and it was tough. You know, you need to have the balance. This is what I'm trying to do now, to have the balance between me and, uh, and my inner child, which is not an easy one. This is why I always say to people, once you have that discussion with that little guy inside you, it's scary, man. It is scary because what he's gonna tell you is everything that you didn't wanna hear or trying to avoid for a very long time, and it took control.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:12

        And what did he tell you?

    24. THThierry Henry1:10:13

        Just, "Be, be yourself. Be human. Show who you are, really, and stop fronting. Stop lying," 'cause we're liars. We pretend. We live in a world, right, where... Let's all be honest. We live in a world where y-... We've both been told, "Do not judge the book by its cover." Right? We do the total opposite. Every day, we do the total opposite. Go and try to find a job with a tracksuit, and you arrive with your hood on. Walk in and see if they're gonna receive you. But we've been told since we're young... Right, Steven?

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:49

        Yeah.

    26. THThierry Henry1:10:49

        "Do not judge the book by its cover." That's a lie. That's all we do. Appearances matter, and then we keep on saying to our kids, "No, the look doesn't matter." Really? Look doesn't matter? Let's all be honest. It does. We want to pretend or think that you've been s-... We are saying the right things because it looks cool, but when it comes to do it-

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:15

        It's a different story.

    28. THThierry Henry1:11:16

        It is a different story. Look, we, we, we go, we go, you know... This is why I like the movie Black, Black Panther. You know, when, when, when he's in the museum, and the girl says, "What are you doing here?" He said, "That's from my village. What are you talking about?" So we have stuff that have been in the world stolen for however, however it was, however it happened or whatever, that are in museum that, that, that maybe you from that part, and you can't go in because you're not dressed well or because... And y- y- people are making money out of those things, and, you know, what are we doing? What are we talking about? And we're sitting here trying to say all the time pretending or whatever it is. It's a bit all false. So we, you tag along, you play the game, but, um, that, that's a... That has an impact.

17. 1:12:09 – 1:21:48

    "I Was Trying To Balance Inner Child, I Didn't Know Who I Was"

    1. THThierry Henry1:12:09

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:09

       I remember the first time I experienced something that would be considered a mental health issue, and I remember the, the, almost the shame I felt, because I never thought that... As a young CEO at the age of 21, I always had to be the tough guy, but also, I always thought those mental health challenges happen to other people. So there was almost a bit of struggle with my own sort of shame and accepting my invulnerability that... And, like, do I talk to someone about this or do I st- keep it to myself? When you're in that room in COVID and you're crying every day and you don't know why, at that point, do you have someone that you can talk to about how you're feeling truly and be 100% honest with how you're feeling? All these years later. You must have been, what, sort of, 40, 40, in your-

    3. THThierry Henry1:12:58

       Yeah.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:58

       ... 40s?

    5. THThierry Henry1:12:59

       Yeah. It was, uh, 2020. Yeah. It... Look-It's tough. It's tough, because... you know, I'm trying to bring myself there. Um, it's very difficult, because, uh, I- I don't know who the wom- the, the, the human being was. Like, I, I, I don't know. I just didn't know. Like I said to you, I go back, I didn't have those doors, I didn't have those tools, I didn't, I didn't know, uh... I, I, I just didn't know. Everything was new for me. That part of my body, those doors that I didn't have before, the understanding of them, that side of the, of the, of the, of the game. When I say the game, talking about life obviously, uh, dealing with, uh, uh, love, and, and... It was weird. Weird. My, my, my way of dealing with love was like, you know, like I said, p- pleasing again, like, you know, giving presents to people. "Oh my God, I'm happy." Then I asked myself that question, "What makes you happy, Thierry?" Oof. "What makes you happy?" Obviously my kids, but again, it's, "My kids, what makes you happy?" I had zero answer. Zero. So you know when you... It is kind of weird, because I... When you look at it, this is, this is what I would like to achieve, but is, is virtually impossible, whether you act with your brain, or you act with your heart. And at times, both feels good, especially with your heart, because it brings em- different emotions, and when you act with your brain, it's a bit more, "No. I'm not doing it." Here is like, "Let's, let's, let's see what's gonna happen." Right? But both... If you can balance, right, your thoughts and the way you act, and you can walk on the, on the, on the rope, you know, like, uh, the fun-guh-bull we call them in, in, in-

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:07

       Tightrope.

    7. THThierry Henry1:15:07

       ... tightrope, yes. And you are walking on there in harmony with your inner child, connected, balancing... decision with your heart and decision with your brain. That will be the... That's, in my head, the image of the perfect human being, you walking on a tightrope with your inner child, balancing decision with your brain and with your heart. Because if you go too much that, that side, you're gonna fall, although you are in harmony with your inner child. If you go that way, you're also gonna fall. Which we all know it's impossible. But that, you know... So I had to, in my head, create that picture, that I have the tattoo of it by the way, but I had to create that picture in order to see what I'm aiming for. I need to... I, I needed that. I needed something. You know? Before it was, you're trying to please your dad, whether I was aware or not aware of it, doesn't matter. It was in me, "What am I trying to do now? What is it?" So I had to draw something.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:24

       In that room, did you know... E- if I was in a room in co- in the pandemic and I'd been, you know, this superstar athlete, and then I find myself in this situation where I'm crying in the hotel or in the, in the, in the room, are you self-diagnosing? Do you understand what that is at the time?

    9. THThierry Henry1:16:44

       No, but I had to do it. So...

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:48

        Do you, do you-

    11. THThierry Henry1:16:49

        The body, the body... Okay? The body does heal itself. Whether if it's gonna be beautiful or not, it will eventually, in a certain way, heal itself. And even if, even if you walk in a weird way after, you will walk, your body will readjust or not. Why can you not heal yourself alone mentally? To a certain degree, 'cause you need help. I understand that. But this is what I'm saying, if you expose to something for so long, it will have an impact on you. But, uh, somehow along the way, you did adapt to it. Like you will adapt to living in a hot country or in a cold country. I go and said, "How can you live here?" You're like, "I grew up here, man. So I got used to it." That doesn't mean it's okay. But you do, in a way, adapt to it, or you learn how to live with it, or you don't. So I did learn how to live, live with it, with a lot of impact on me, as we can see, with a lot of consequences that I'm still trying to deal with. But yes, I do, you do self-deal with it or self-diagnose yourself without realizing it.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:06

        Did you... I- it sounds like you were struggling with a form of depression when you were in that phase of your life. Did you know that that's what it was?

    13. THThierry Henry1:18:15

        No.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:16

        And did you-

    15. THThierry Henry1:18:16

        That's impossible. I, I don't know. I, I didn't know.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:19

        In hindsight, do you think that's what it was?

    17. THThierry Henry1:18:22

        I would like to think so. But how do I know? 'Cause I don't know the signals. Like, I, I cannot tell you that I was or wasn't. I don't know the signals. Like, I don't know. If you said to me right now, I don't know. Like, if you give me any of the signals... Not any of them, let me tell you, anger, this and that. Yeah. Oof, yeah, I was angry, man.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:44

        Mm-hmm.

    19. THThierry Henry1:18:44

        Yeah. "Were you?" I'm like...

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:47

        But how you've heard people characterize it now and describe it now, does that...

    21. THThierry Henry1:18:52

        Yeah, it does ring a bell. More than a bell. But was it... You know, I'm... Look, I'm a human being, so I have feelings. Throughout my career, and since I was born, I must have been in depression. Did I know it? No. (laughs) Did I do something about it? Obviously not. (laughs) But I adapted to a certain way. That doesn't mean I'm walking straight-... but I'm walking. You gotta, you gotta put one foot and another one and walk. That's, that's what I've been told since I'm young. And it doesn't matter where you're from, it doesn't matter what you do, it doesn't matter your, your job, you gotta walk, you gotta stand. No matter how the, the rough the sea is, whatever it is, you gotta stand and walk. And, and people have a, you know, way harder life than, than I had, obviously. But I'm just saying, it doesn't matter. You have to get up and walk. So do I realize? Because I never stopped walking. Then maybe I would have realized. COVID, I stopped walk, uh, walking 'cause I couldn't put a foot after, and again, I couldn't. I just couldn't, Steven. So that's why I was like, "Oh, I need to pause." Then you start to realize and you start to overthink, then you start to, to, to whatever. And I know it's kind of a cliché one, you need to stand. It's not how you fall, it's how you stand. Yeah, we all know, right? Not trying to be, uh, uh, you know, uh, clever here. But I've been told, you know, keep on walking.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:33

        I, I say this because your story brings to light a bunch of statistics that I've, I was reading about as it relates to mental health. Um, someone dies by suicide in the UK every 90 minutes. 76% of these are male. 25 attempts for every death. Single biggest cause of death for men under the age of 45 is suicide. Single biggest cause of death for 15 to 49 year olds. 19 to 35 year olds are twice as likely to report being ... These stats are absolutely shocking, and they're s- almost 80% of this is men. It's the, it's a crazy stat that people always talk about, the single biggest cause of death if you're under the age of 45.

    23. THThierry Henry1:21:15

        Uh, I will... This is... Please, this is not a sexist thing or whatever, I don't want to enter the battle man, woman. This is not where I'm going. But it's not easy to be a man. That sheer pressure, and it is. And the stats, you know, will tell you. Uh, and I, I keep on saying, I don't know... This is not me trying to say that I thought about it or whatever. Not, not at all, not that. But I, I told you that day, I'm sure you

18. 1:21:48 – 1:30:24

    The Moment I First Felt Loved

    1. THThierry Henry1:21:48

       remember, my kids saved me. And I'm not saying that just like that, but literally. I'll explain. Yeah, I'll explain. I don't know where I was going, mentally. I don't know. Really, I don't know where I was, I was going. 'Cause when I came back from COVID, came back home, I didn't see... 'Cause after that year, we were allowed back home, but then I knew if I was going back to Montreal, I don't know what was happening with COVID if I was going to not see my kids for, uh, a year or whatever. So I'm at home, next thing you know, it's a month, whatever. I pack my bags, I was about to leave again. So I said bye to my kids, everybody was there, and do you remember when I told you, uh, my, my young me never got any approval, never got any recognition, n- no... How can I explain that? No, no love-

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:45

       Love, yeah.

    3. THThierry Henry1:22:46

       ... in brackets, apart from the, you know, the we have food, we have this, but it was never hugging or, or saying or nodding or any approval like that. Pack my bag, I'm like, "Okay, Daddy's about to leave." Next thing you know, I put my bags down and everyone starts to cry. So I put my bags down to say by to everybody, and everybody starts to cry, from the, the nanny to, to my girlfriend, to the kids. Everybody was crying. And then, Steven, for the first time, for the first time, and I know people will say, "Oh my God, Thierry." For the first time, because at that moment it was the little me that felt it. I'm like, "Oh, they see me." Not the football player, not the accolades, not the... And I felt human. Not, you know, me always trying to please people because, "Oh, you play football. Oh, you can put your cape on." Or, "This is why they like you, that's what they wanna see. They wanna see a guy that's strong, a guy that's gonna perform, trans- trans- transmit, transcend, inspire and do both, so be that guy." Okay, boom, "Let's do it again today. Let's do it again today." But for the first time, that day I was like, "Oh, they see me."

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:17

       They were crying because you were leaving?

    5. THThierry Henry1:24:18

       Yeah, but they, they were crying for me. They were not happy or crying for the athlete. Understand me well, I'm not saying they didn't before, but I never realized it. I never... So the... I felt it the first time there, and my little me for the first time got fed with love. Put my bags down, I told you, and I stayed. I stopped coaching in Montreal. I said, I said, "What am I doing? What am I doing? Gonna go again into a situation just because your pursuit of pleasing people and stuff and stuff?" They, they love, they love Thierry.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:00

       The kids?

    7. THThierry Henry1:25:01

       Not, not, not Thierry Henry. They love Thierry. So I stayed. And for the first time, and I'm not scared to say it, I felt human. I felt like peop- like they saw me, like, the human being. I was like, "Oh, that feel nice. That feels really nice."This is why I said my kids saved me. So I don't know where I was going. I don't know if I was going to, uh, obviously go back, not see them again. I don't know where mentally that would have brought me. Uh, I- I- I don't... I don't actually know. But that day is special day for me because, because, yeah, that... what they did fed my little... my little me. And you know when you- you- you- you've been looking for something for so long, but you don't know what it was?

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:52

       Mm-hmm.

    9. THThierry Henry1:25:53

       You just don't know. It's annoying. It's like you're looking for something, you know you're looking for something, but you don't know what it is, and you- you've been thrown a lot of things. Uh, "No, that's not it. No, that's not it. No, that's not it. That's still not it. Still not it." And then out of nowhere, when I wasn't looking for anything, it came.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:15

        But it was right in front of you the whole time.

    11. THThierry Henry1:26:18

        Yeah. Was I... Was I open enough to see it, though? That's the thing. Was I... You know, this is why COVID, you know, made me, you know, my... th- vulnerability, empathy, understanding those emotions. So tho- the doors were there. So suddenly, when that happened, oh, I was like, "Oh, that door. Oh, that's a new door, that's nice." Open, boom! Done. Before, like, maybe that happened before and I never felt it, i- if you know what I mean.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:54

        Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    13. THThierry Henry1:26:54

        It's k- it's kind of weird, but I felt it that day though, and it did resonate.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:59

        And you quit working in Montreal?

    15. THThierry Henry1:27:00

        Yeah, straight away.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:27:01

        Straight away? It- y- it reminds me, I got a flashback to speaking to Patrice, Patrice Evra.

    17. THThierry Henry1:27:10

        Mm-hmm.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:27:11

        Patrice Evra grew up in the South of France, I believe, rough, rough area.

    19. THThierry Henry1:27:15

        No, uh, same town as me.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:27:16

        Oh, same town?

    21. THThierry Henry1:27:17

        Yeah. South of Paris, same town.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:27:19

        (sighs)

    23. THThierry Henry1:27:19

        We're from the same town.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:27:21

        (laughs)

    25. THThierry Henry1:27:21

        Sesulies. (laughs)

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:27:22

        Patrice is a good friend of mine, and he- he told me, um... he- he shared it publicly on this podcast b- before, that he... I think he was 40 years old and his partner at the time kept asking him, like, "Are you okay? Are you okay? Are you okay?" And then one day, she's at home, they're having a little bit of a tiff, and she turns to him and goes, "Patrice, are you... are you happy?" And he looked at her, and he burst into tears, cried for the first time in his life. And it sounds like a similar moment, a similar sort of unlock in him. It was the first time in his life-

    27. THThierry Henry1:27:55

        Good job, Patrice.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:27:55

        ... he could ever show that emotion, and he said it was that moment, "The first time I ever cried, first time I ever showed an emotion, because up until then I'd been a tough guy." Um, and it was just the- qu- a... k- a question asked at the right moment, the right question from the right person, that inspired him to boom. And he says that's the moment that unlocked his em- his emotions, and obviously he's on a journey as well with that.

    29. THThierry Henry1:28:16

        Yeah. No. No. No. I know.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:17

        Yeah. Yeah.

Episode duration: 1:54:11