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The Diary of a CEOThe Diary of a CEO

How a UFC heavyweight champion turns fear into fuel

How body language and steady mental training rewire fear under pressure; consistency and outlasting the room beat raw talent on the road to a title.

Tom AspinallguestSteven Bartletthost
Jun 26, 20252h 11mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:52

    Intro

    1. TA

      I'm the number one heavyweight in the world right now and I'm scared to fight everybody.

    2. SB

      What about Jon Jones?

    3. TA

      I'd be an idiot otherwise. But now that I understand fear and what it does for me, it just fuels me so much in a way that nothing else can. So I'll be prepared to do whatever I need to do, but I just don't like what he's doing because I can't function knowing that I trained for a fight and didn't actually fight somebody.

    4. SB

      This is gonna hurt...

    5. TA

      Jon Jones is officially retired. Tom Aspinall is the heavyweight champion of the UFC.

    6. SB

      Did you see this coming? And do you have any idea when you'll be back in the octagon?

    7. TA

      I do. Yeah, yeah.

    8. SB

      Tom, you're the only ever British heavyweight champion of the UFC, so what advice can you give young men that are struggling to find that sense of purpose?

    9. TA

      It takes years to become an overnight success. I've been going since I was eight years old and I've been up against so many tests, from career-ending injuries to financial struggles to mental struggles. And at one point, we had the three kids at the age of 25 and I had no money. And I mean, my first pro fight, I got 200 quid. I felt the pressure trying to be a young guy, but having all this responsibility on me, having to borrow money from friends to buy nappies for my kids so I could keep living on this dream. But outlasting people and consistency is massively underrated. And in today's day and age, people just have a lot of options. But that obsessiveness of being 100% focused on something, you win.

    10. SB

      Tom, there's this black box in front of me which contains something which represents a pivotal moment in your career. What is the story behind this? I smell your fear...

    11. TA

      It was the most devastating thing that happened in my whole career. (music plays)

    12. SB

      So ahead of showing you that interview which we recorded a while ago, I wanted to call Tom and get his first reaction to the news that he's now the UFC's undisputed heavyweight champion of the world. So what I'm about to show you is a conversation I had with Tom hours after the news was announced that he's now the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world. And then I'm gonna play the long-form interview that me and Tom had several weeks ago right here in the studio. Enjoy. Tom, did you, um, did you see this coming?

    13. TA

      Uh, yes, but I just didn't expect it, um, when it happened. I expected it... So next week, I'm going to Vegas. I'm going for the... Well, they, they say it's the biggest fight card of the year, a, a fight card called International Fight Week. And I knew that I had some news coming on International Fight Week. We got wind that Jon Jones is gonna retire and that they're gonna announce it on International Fight Week. But for some reason, they announced it, um, last night. I don't know what that reason is. It took me by surprise, at least. Um, but they announced it last night.

    14. SB

      What was your initial honest gut reaction when you found out he was retiring? Where were you? What was your first feeling when you heard that news?

    15. TA

      Well, I only knew 100% actually last night. It was always like rumors of him retiring. He's putting stuff out on the media saying that he's retiring

  2. 2:52 – 3:31

    Did You See This Coming?

    1. TA

      'cause MMA, especially at an elite level is quite... There's not many people. Like you, you hear rumors a lot. So I heard rumors from people close to him that he's gonna retire and that he's not living like an athlete, um, who's fighting at the top level anymore, and that he's not interested and he's not in the gym and et cetera. But I knew that it was gonna be a decision made by the UFC coming soon whether he's gonna continue and, um, we got it last night for sure. We, we finally got it confirmed last night. So I am, uh, very happy to get this part of my career behind me in the rear-view mirror now.

    2. SB

      But, but how did you feel? Because I think y- from the conversation we had, which we're gonna play

  3. 3:31 – 4:23

    What Was Your Reaction When You Found Out Jon Jones Was Retiring?

    1. SB

      in a second, it was clear to me that you wanted to have Jon Jones on your record. You wanted to fight him.

    2. TA

      What I really want is, is the undisputed title. That's really what I was chasing the whole time. I was never really chasing one guy. Jon Jones was always just a bonus because of the sto- because of the resume that he's got and because of the name that he has and, uh, the status that he holds within the, within the sport. Like he's so well-respected. I think that would have been a great scalp for me to have on my resume. But, uh, ultimately I was chasing the belt. I was chasing being the number one heavyweight fighter in the world, which, uh, I am. And I can say that I am now, especially with Jon not around and he's retired and that's behind us. But, um, ultimately the thing that I wanted really was, was the belt. The fact that Jon's left the sport, obviously it would have been better for me career-wise to have that name. Financially it would have been great as well. But, um, the thing that I was ultimately chasing was, uh,

  4. 4:23 – 5:21

    Did You Want to Fight Jon?

    1. TA

      the heavyweight title.

    2. SB

      And how do you think about Jon's decision? Do you, do you view it as a strategic dodge or do you view it as a genuine sort of closing of that chapter in his, uh, of his legacy?

    3. TA

      I think that he's entitled to do whatever he wants, to be honest. I'm not, um... He's done way more in the sport than I have, so he should do whatever he feels is right. It... As, speaking as, as just a, a fighter here, if it was, if it was so public, for me personally, I don't know if my ego could take it having not done it. Um, but that's, that's... Honestly, that's his prerogative. I don't hold any ill will against him for it. And I'm, I'm happy to move on with my career now that it's over because you gotta remember, I've not fought for nearly a year now because of this. And I've been healthy the whole time. I've been in the gym the whole time. I've been doing exactly what I'm supposed to do as a high-level operating

  5. 5:21 – 6:23

    Was Jon's Decision a Strategic Dodge?

    1. TA

      athlete at the elite level. So I'm glad that that is behind us now.

    2. SB

      Do you in part, I, I guess take this as a bit of a compliment that there was such huge public pressure for him to fight you and actually the route that he chose was to retire instead of fighting you? I mean, that's quite a compliment for someone of Jon Jones' stature.

    3. TA

      Uh, I try not to let my ego take control of me. Um, I could see why people would think that. But to me it's just like maybe when I've retired I'll cons- when I've retired myself, which is not gonna happen in the next couple of years at least, um, I'll think about that kind of stuff. But for right now, it's just like we've got to focus on another fight. We've got to get me active. We've got to get me back out there and doing what, doing what I'm supposed to be doing. 'Cause right now I've been thinking about that whole situation and being held up and frustrated for almost a year. And it's not...It's what I love doing. I've been, I've been held back for the whole time and it's not been very fun, to be honest with you. So my, the, the ego side of my brain is like, yep, I've kind of beat him without fighting him. And I did say that. I said that the whole time, that I'm gonna retire

  6. 6:23 – 7:29

    Do You Take It as a Compliment?

    1. TA

      him without fighting him. Uh, but I don't kind of want to harp, harp on about that really. I wanna kind of just put that behind me and move forward on my own path now.

    2. SB

      I hear you. And, uh, you know Jon Jones is a- an unpredictable individual, so there's still a possibility that that retirement wasn't a legit retirement, and that he might get a bit bored and end up, you know, deciding that he wants to come back and fight you. Is that something that you would consider if that were to happen?

    3. TA

      I'm sure with where he's at, he can like jump the queue anytime he wants. So, you know, this time a year down the line, we'll have another three or four contenders knocking on for a title shot, I'm sure. But any time someone like him wants to step up and say, "Listen, I wanna fight again," they're gonna get an immediate title shot. So, uh, I'm never gonna count that out, and I'm sure that maybe he's... You know, I'm in a spot in my career where there's not all that much footage out there on me.

    4. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    5. TA

      Maybe he sees something on me in the next few fights and he thinks, "You know what? I can beat this guy. I'm gonna come back and beat him." So mentally I'm never counting that out. I think the, the, the fight is always... It could always pop back up and come back around on me. So, uh, that's something that I would obviously accept.

  7. 7:29 – 8:51

    Would You Fight Jon If He Came Back?

    1. TA

      But as I said before, I think a lot of people get it confused over the last kind of 10 months-ish, is that I was chasing Jon Jones. That was never the case. I was chasing the, the Undisputed Heavyweight title. That's it. So if I c- if I do get the opportunity to put Jon Jones on my resume, of course I'll, I'll accept that with open arms. But if not, I'm content. I'll move forward and I'll, uh, create my own legacy without him.

    2. SB

      And what- what has changed overnight? Is there... As a UFC fan, is there anything that I'm unaware of that changes when Dana announces you as the Undisputed? Does your contract change? Does, does... Uh, is there anything that changes other than the fact that you've now got a s- of a clear path and you're now the one being chased? You're no longer chasing...

    3. TA

      Well, I was on, uh, 'cause I was a interim cha- 'cause I was a champion in my own right as well, so I al- I- I was already getting a lot of the, uh, a lot of the perks that come with being a champion. Stuff like pay-per-view points is something that you get when you're a champion. You also get-

    4. SB

      What's that?

    5. TA

      You know, uh, pay-per-view points is where you get a cut of the pay-per-view sales.

    6. SB

      Okay.

    7. TA

      So I don't wanna go into the details of my contract, of course, but you'll get... If someone pays, you know, $60 for a pay-per-view, you might get $2, you might get $5 per buy, you might get 10. People, different people have different, um, different perks in the contract. So I, I was already having that 'cause I was a, I was a champion in my own right anyway. But yeah, no- nothing actually really changes, just

  8. 8:51 – 10:43

    What's Changed Overnight?

    1. TA

      the fact that there isn't two belts anymore in the division, which is great. There's one face, one name, and one guy in, in the division. And to me, that is what, that's what separates, uh, MMA from other sports, other, other fight sports at least. Is that, for example, in boxing you can have like five, six, seven, eight even sometimes different organization. You got the WBO, the WBC, the IBO, the IBF, and all these different ones that I don't even know about. And they all have different champions in each organization. Whereas generally speaking, the number one guy in the world is the UFC champion. And before Jon Jones retired, there was two of us in the division, which is a little bit of a strange, strange conundrum that I wasn't comfortable being in. I think that there should be one guy in every division. And, uh, now that Jo- that Jon's gone, obviously we didn't get to fight about it, which I would have liked, um, but at least there's one guy and, uh, I'm, I'm happy with that moving forward.

    2. SB

      And who's the, who's the number one contender now? You're now being chased, right? You- you were doing a little bit of chasing in terms of trying to get that, um, unified, but, but who in your mind is the number one contender now for the heavyweight title belt?

    3. TA

      Oh, that's, uh, that's f- I'm, I'm more than happy being chased. That's fantastic. I w- I would rather be the hunted as opposed to the hunter, because I've, I've been chased... I- I don't like chasing fights. I like just being the guy and everyone comes to me. That's fantastic. So most of the t- I've actually fought a lot of the top 10. Um, one of the guys I've not fought is, uh, Cyril Gane, a French guy. That's a, a fight that I was l- I was actually chasing that fight a few times before. He was, he was ducking and diving around himself a little bit, so he is due a little bit of a beating off me. I look forward to that. (laughs) Um, couple more guys down the rankings. A Brazilian guy, Jailton Almeida, I've not fought. There's a guy I've already beat called, uh, Alexander Volkov who's doing really well for himself as well. So

  9. 10:43 – 11:48

    Who's the Contender Now?

    1. TA

      who knows? You never know in the heavyweight division. There's a couple of up and coming guys who I've not mentioned as well. So there's some, some good fights to be made over the next couple of years for sure.

    2. SB

      If I were to say myself, it'd be great to see you fight Gane in, uh, in London or in the UK somewhere, um, as your next fight. Do you have any idea what you're doing next and when you'll be back in the octagon?

    3. TA

      I do.

    4. SB

      (laughs)

    5. TA

      But I also wanna keep, I also wanna keep my job. So (laughs) there's not much-

    6. SB

      No, I can respect that.

    7. TA

      ... I can say of it, to be honest. Um, but yeah-

    8. SB

      When are you fighting this year then?

    9. TA

      I ... Yeah, I'm gonna be fighting hopefully twice this year. That's, that's my plan at least.

    10. SB

      Oh, wow.

    11. TA

      I think, I think I've wasted enough time, um, now, so, um, we're looking for a quick... We're look- we're looking to get a fight booked quick and, and it's looking like it's gonna be, you know, pretty soon anyway. Um, and then hopefully if everything goes well in the first one, um, I'm uninjured, which is... You know, it's easier said than done, uh, getting through a fight with, with a guy my size and, and coming out with no injuries. But, um, if I, if I can do that, I would like to fight at the end of the year as well. That'd be perfect.

  10. 11:48 – 14:02

    When Will You Fight Next?

    1. TA

    2. SB

      And, uh, are you off to training now? Are you... You're flying out to Vegas, so I'm assuming you're, you're going to the UFC center out there and starting training?

    3. TA

      No. So I'm t- I'm training constantly regardless if I've got a fight or not. The only thing that changes for me is basically intensity in, uh, in the sessions. But I'm actually going to Vegas for, well...I am the heavyweight champion of the world so they're gonna want me at the big shows. Uh, so I'm gonna-

    4. SB

      Yeah.

    5. TA

      ... I'm gonna be showing my face there, doing a little bit of media and stuff. I will, of course, be doing a little bit of training. You know, ju- just different stuff. I'm working with a new sponsor who I'm going to be with till the end of my career which Champion, so I'll be working with them out there and, uh, just doing bits for the UFC, meeting fans and, and doing bits of training. Just being around the scene and, I don't often, to be honest, I'm so routine and I'm so routine-based and goal-focused that I don't like to leave my home routine and training regiment that often. So when I go to the US and do things like this, I like to do as much in a short space of time as possible so I can get back to my, uh... Because I know, I know what I need to do to, to be good and to win fights and, uh, that's being at home and being my routine and, and be focused. So I don't like to leave my routine too much and go overseas and do all this other stuff. So I'll be killing as many birds with one stone in this trip as possible.

    6. SB

      You're, um, you're a family man, uh, Tom. I got a real understanding of that in the conversation that I'm about to play. Um, your family are very close to you. You're a father. What's the reaction been like with your, your partner, your, your, your kids, your, your father, your, your parents over the last couple of hours since you've been crowned as the Undisputed?

    7. TA

      Uh, to be honest, um, it didn't really make much of a difference. I think a lot of people said the same thing outside of my family as well. It was like, "You were kind of the champion anyway." 'Cause I think the way that Jon Jones played it the last year or so, it just didn't, a- a lot of people didn't see him as the, the unified heavyweight champion anyway. So I think a lot of people close to me, like I told my kids this morning, they were just like not bothered at all. (laughs)

    8. SB

      (laughs)

    9. TA

      It didn't make a... It didn't make the slightest bit of difference. I said, "Look, I'm only telling you so when your friends tell you at school, you'll know." And they're like, "Okay, fair enough." That, that was it. There was no-

    10. SB

      What, what did you say to them?

    11. TA

      There was no great reaction there.

    12. SB

      What did you say to them? (laughs)

    13. TA

      Well, it was just my, my... It's mainly

  11. 14:02 – 15:29

    What Was Your Family's Reaction?

    1. TA

      my oldest son because my, my twins, they're a little bit too young to really understand. They've just turned six so they don't really get it. But my oldest son's nine almost. Um, his friends are following MMA a little bit more so he kind of started thinking it's cool now. So I told my son, I was like, "Listen, I'm just letting you know, Jon Jones retired. I'm the Undisputed Champion now. I've got, you know, this one." And he was just like, "Oh, okay." And I was like-

    2. SB

      (laughs)

    3. TA

      ... "I'm just, I know you're not that bothered. I'm just letting you know so if your friends say anything, you know." And he was like, "Okay, thanks."

    4. SB

      Jon's probably watching this. Um, he has undoubtedly had one of the greatest careers in the history of the UFC, up there with the likes of Khabib and many of the legends through history. What would you say to him if he was watching this now?

    5. TA

      That's, it's a great question and I, I don't, I don't know if he will be watching this. I'm not sure. But if, if he is, uh, I think he's had an amazing career and I think he should enjoy the rest of his life. I think if he, if he truly feels like he's done enough, which he keeps saying that he does, he will be at peace. He doesn't need me or anybody else to tell him, uh, how good he's done. He should, he'll know it himself. So, uh, I hope that he's, he's enjoying his life, he's enjoying his family, and he's celebrating his career because it's been amazing.

    6. SB

      Tom, uh, congratulations. I think, uh, I speak on behalf of a lot of Brits and really people all around the world when I say that, um, you're the champion I think the UFC, especially at the, the heavyweight

  12. 15:29 – 17:48

    If Jon Is Watching, What Would You Say?

    1. SB

      division, has really been longing for. Someone who wants to be active, someone who is, um, seeking the biggest fights, someone who is willing to fight anybody, but also someone that's just really, really relatable and I think sends a message to all of, all of us that what I'd class as a very normal guy from humble beginnings can reach the very top of the professional, um, pyramid as it relates to sports and entertainment. So thank you so much for, uh, representing the UK in uh, UF- in the UFC, especially at the heavyweight level which we've never had before. But we'll all be rooting for you, uh, for so many reasons. Because of who you are, but also because of the exciting way that you've, um, conducted yourself in and outside of the Octagon. So I'm gonna let you go and we're gonna play the interview now that we recorded a little while ago. But, um, yeah, gonna be watching your career very, very closely and I'm gonna be ringside whenever you fight next. Uh, I know there's a lot of people that are gonna turn out to support you. So thank you so much, Tom.

    2. TA

      Thank you very much for having me and, uh, if you're there, as always, 'cause we know each other now and I know it's difficult when you know somebody personally, um, a- anytime I fight, you got to strap in, be ready for anything because it's heavyweight MMA at the highest level and anything can happen. So thank you for having me, Stephen, and I look forward to, uh, to seeing you there. Thank you. (instrumental music playing)

    3. SB

      Tom, if I had met you when you were a kid and I'd asked you, "What do you want to be when you're older?" What would you have said to me?

    4. TA

      Well, it depends on the age, of course, but I think if you would have asked me from the age of being nine years old and above, I would have said that I'm gonna be UFC Heavyweight Champion.

    5. SB

      At nine years old?

    6. TA

      Yeah. As soon as I kind of like went to a gym and I realized there's people in this gym who are adults and they don't have a regular job and they're just showing up to the gym every day and fighting every few months and getting money for it, like I was, I was literally like, "This is what I want to do."

    7. SB

      So take me back. So where do you, where do you come from? For someone that doesn't know who you are, they don't know your story, they don't know Tom Aspinall's-

    8. TA

      Yeah.

    9. SB

      ... origin, where do you come from?

    10. TA

      Um, so I'm from a place, I was born in Salford which is like Greater Manchester

  13. 17:48 – 18:32

    The Dream to Become a Heavyweight Champion

    1. TA

      and then I moved to a different part of Greater Manchester, a place called Allerton. There's not a lot of stuff going on there, to be honest. I mean, it's just a, like a normal working class, blue collar place. Do you know what I mean? A lot, a lot of families, like the parents work in factories, they are mechanics, they...... plumbers.

    2. SB

      And what were your family in that context?

    3. TA

      So, my dad originally worked in IT. He got paid some redundancy money and then he decided to start teaching grappling full-time, which we're talking, when we're talking like 20 years ago, the grappling industry (laughs) in the UK was non-existent.

  14. 18:32 – 19:45

    Where Does Tom Aspinall Come From?

    1. TA

      And obviously, I was quite a, I was a budding ... but I wasn't, I wasn't even like a budding prospect at the time. My dad ... no fights at the time. But I was training and I was enjoying my training and my dad wanted to spend more time perfecting me to help me do what I enjoy a little bit more.

    2. SB

      So, was he the inspiration for you to go to the gym the first time and start training or ...

    3. TA

      So, it's difficult to say because I had like a bit of a blurred line as to where I started actually training martial arts. So, I started training when I was young but it was my dad's thing more and I just used to go with my dad, like to spend some time with my dad and 'cause I didn't really have much else to do. But I used to always go down to the gym and when I started training, there were no, like, kids' classes. Like, now you can go to the end of the road and there'll be an MMA gym with kids' classes on, with 20 kids in the class, like, that wasn't my case when I started at eight, nine years old. Like, I used to go to the gym. There used to be ten 40-year-old guys rolling around on the floor with each other and I just used to jump in when there was a smaller guy available. Otherwise, I'd just be, like, kicking the football around the gym or something like that. Like, basically, I've grown up in, in gyms. But when I actually started training seriously, that was probably when I was like 14, 13, 14. Something like that.

    4. SB

      And was there ever a moment in those early years where

  15. 19:45 – 22:02

    Where Did Your Inspiration Come From?

    1. SB

      you realized or someone said something to you that you can still remember that proved to you that you were better than normal people at this thing?

    2. TA

      I do remember a few instances. Like I said, I used to train with adults even when I was a child. And I was quite aware, even from being young, that the adults were, like, taking it easy on me. You know, like, they were letting me get position and letting me do certain things on 'em and they weren't really trying as much. And, uh, I remember feeling like the adults are starting going harder on me. Do ... if that makes sense.

    3. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    4. TA

      Does that make sense? Like-

    5. SB

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    6. TA

      ... I remember, I used to just have all my own way in training because the adults a lot of the time were like my dad's friends and his students and then they would al- I would always be around the gym, so they'd know me and they'd take it easy and stuff like that. And then I remember, like, a couple of the, couple of the guys who I train with ... like I said, I was like 11, 12 years old, and I remember a couple of the guys, like, it became a lot more physical train- like, it became a lot more competitive, whereas before, they were just like letting me do my thing and then they started fighting back a little bit more.

    7. SB

      (laughs)

    8. TA

      And then I remember thinking, "Oh, well, I must be all right. Like, if they're, if they're trying." I remember realizing that people actually started trying against me and then they finish a round and look like they'd done a workout a little bit rather than just played with a kid, if that makes sense.

    9. SB

      Mm. And was that ... I'm trying to figure out as well, the, the thing that encouraged you to keep going at that point, because at that age, you can end up playing football, you can end up going and joining this club, you can end up focusing on some drama s- class that you're doing. But there must have been something that kinda held you in this habit.

    10. TA

      I mean, I definitely tried all that stuff. I definitely, um ... I mean, my area's, like, quite a big rugby area.

    11. SB

      Mm.

    12. TA

      So, like, rugby league we play up there and, uh, I definitely delved in that a little bit, but yeah, it just never really was my thing, you know. I think 'cause my dad and my brother was heavily involved with martial arts and that's just where I always felt, like, safe to a degree, is like in the gym. I know it sounds really weird. But I felt like when you're involved in martial arts, it's almost like there can be ten guys in the room and they can all be from different backgrounds, male, female. One guy can be 12 years old, the other guy can be 65 years old. One guy's retired, the other guy's at college. One guy's Black, the other guy's Chinese. It doesn't matter.

  16. 22:02 – 24:46

    What Kept You Going?

    1. TA

      Like, when you're in there, it do- none of that matters and everyone just respects each other and gets on regardless of, like, race, gender, age, what the job is and it ... None of that stuff matters. Everyone just respects each other the same and I was always, like, drawn to that more than anything. I was al- that's where I always felt my most comfortable and especially 'cause I was a bit more of a shy kid. I felt like I could really express myself through martial arts. And something else about martial arts is, like, 'cause it's an individual sport, it's, like, always on you if you do well or not. And I realized, like, the more time I put in, the more I got out of it, like, mentally and physically. Like, I would get better the more I did it. Whereas with team sports, especially rugby 'cause that's a team sport I've done the most, like, there would be games where I personally had had, like, an amazing game but the team had lost-

    2. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. TA

      ... and I could see the next guy not trying as hard as me or sometimes vice versa. Sometimes they'd ... you know, I'd, I'd had a terrible game but the team had won and everyone would be really happy and I'd be like, "Oh, I had a bad game." And I couldn't, I could never shake that. I'd always, like, wanna ... I always liked-

    4. SB

      Control?

    5. TA

      ... control, yeah. Being in charge of, like, my own thing and MMA in particular is very much that. It's like if you're not putting the work in, like, you will get exposed. You will get your ego checked literally on a daily basis if you're not doing what you need to do. And I love that. Like, it gives you a sense of, like, accountability for just your everyday habits, like your thought process, what you're putting in your body, how much recovery you're getting, how many reps are you doing in the gym. Everything, like everything is accounted for publicly and I quite like that. I quite love that actually.

    6. SB

      Um, your mother in this picture, where does she fit into this picture you've painted for me and who is she?

    7. TA

      Uh, sh- first of all, she is the nicest woman that has ever walked the face of the Earth, I think.

    8. SB

      (laughs)

    9. TA

      She is such a lovely person, yeah. There is literally ... you know when someone says the term, "Oh, she's not got..." or, "They've not got a bad bone in the body."

    10. SB

      Yeah. (laughs)

    11. TA

      That literally applies to my mum. But as far as ... so my last fight I had, which was in Manchester, my home, my hometown-... that was the first fight that my mom's ever been to.

    12. SB

      (laughs) Really?

    13. TA

      And I'm already, like, number one in the world. I'm like, "Bloody hell, mum-"

    14. SB

      (laughs)

    15. TA

      "... you've lived here this long." But yeah, she, she is, she just stays away from the MMA side of things. She is just a, a mum, which is great. That's amazing. She is really, really a lovely person.

    16. SB

      Why was that the first fight she'd ever come to?

    17. TA

      'Cause it's scary and I-

    18. SB

      You didn't want her to come, or-

    19. TA

      No, it's not, no, it's not that I didn't want her to ... I, I was ... It's never been like her thing, so I would never, like, be like, "Oh, mum, can you please come?"

  17. 24:46 – 26:40

    Why Did Your Mum Never Come to an MMA Fight?

    1. TA

      Because I know it's, I know, like, firsthand even from, like, teammates fighting how scary it is for me to be in attendance. So, I would never, like, drag along someone who loves me because it's, it's horrendous to be honest with you. Like, it's such an unpredictable sport that you just never know. So, but I think my mom came because I was like, "Look, mum, I don't wanna tell you to come or not come, but this is probably the only time I'm ever gonna fight in Manchester." Like, I don't know how many fights I've got left and I'm on, I'm under the notion that I would rather retire a little bit too early than a little bit too late, because I've seen the way people get late in their career and I don't, I don't wanna be like that. So, (sucks in breath) I'm not saying I'm gonna retire anytime soon, but I'm just saying, like, most of my fights are in the US now and I don't think you'll ever have a chance to see me fight live again. So, I think you should come to this one. And, uh, she came and apparently she enjoyed it. (laughs)

    2. SB

      Um, as you were talking about the role that m- martial arts has played in your life, it got me thinking about, about young men in general because young men in general seem to be really struggling at the moment when we look at a lot of the statistics around, like, suicidal ideation and purposelessness. And, um, it made me, as you were speaking, I was like, "Damn, I need to do martial arts."

    3. TA

      Mm-hmm.

    4. SB

      So, if there is y- young men listening to this that are struggling in their lives in any way, w- what advice would you give them in terms of martial arts or those early life decisions or even later life decisions about, you know, something that they can do to find that sense of purpose that you so clearly found?

    5. TA

      I mean, let me first of all start by saying I would be completely lost without it. I think everybody should do it, honestly, because I think that ... it puts your ego in check massively because you constantly, like every time you step onto a mat to train, you're getting, uh, you're getting hit in the face with reality constantly.

  18. 26:40 – 29:49

    What Advice Would You Give to Young People?

    1. TA

      And if you haven't been ... like for me, it's like, you're getting hit in the face with reality and if you're not consistent, that reality will hit you harder and harder each time.

    2. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. TA

      So, it creates a sense of, like, purpose in your life. You're, you're almost, like, sca- it's not, it's not fear, but it's like you don't wanna miss because you don't wanna get hit with the reality. Like, you don't wanna be inconsistent with your training because you don't wanna be hit harder by the reality next time you go. If that makes sense.

    4. SB

      Makes perfect sense.

    5. TA

      I just think that it gives you just a massive structure in your life. And not only that, not, not to mention the stuff like, look, I'm not gonna sit here and talk about crime rates or anything like that because I don't know the, the statistics, but I know that in this country especially, crime is pretty high right now.

    6. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. TA

      So, my friend who's come with me, who's upstairs, Charlie, he does my social media and he's also a close, close friend of mine as well. And he's a similar age to me, he's 32, and he's literally just started training because I literally said to him, like, "Charlie," and I say this to everybody who's not involved in martial arts, "If you need to, and I'm not saying you need to be a world champion, you need to train every ... but you need to have a general idea of how to defend yourself if it ever happens." Like you, you don't need to be good. You don't need to have a fight. You don't need to be preparing to fight someone in a ring, in a cage or whatever. But I think everybody should be comfortable with the general idea of how to defend their self if they need to. Whether that be if you own a house, if you have children, if you have a girlfriend or a boyfriend or whatever. If you have somebody who you might need to protect who can't protect their self or something that you might need to protect, you need to have some kind of idea-

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. TA

      ... on, on how to protect them. And that, that's my opinion.

    10. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. TA

      Um, because fighting's a scary thing. At their best, it's like, I'm the number one heavyweight in the world right now and I'm scared to fight somebody. So, like, I wouldn't like to be completely clueless because it must be so scary and I think that it would be re- I, I would recommend it to anybody of any age to do some kind of martial arts.

    12. SB

      So, there's a couple of things that you said there which I'm most certainly gonna ask you about. The first thing you said was about how martial arts brings the consequence of like a lack of discipline-

    13. TA

      Yeah.

    14. SB

      ... up close, but also increases the consequence. And I was, I was thinking as you were saying that, I was thinking, "Oh my God, this is so true." Because if I, if I'm a 18-year-old guy and I'm sat just on the sofa at home doing nothing with my life, the consequence of that is quite hard to see in the short term, what you're saying is by doing martial arts, the consequence becomes weekly-

    15. TA

      Yeah.

    16. SB

      ... and becomes you're gonna get your fucking nose broken.

    17. TA

      Yeah.

    18. SB

      So, so that's motivating to get your, get your life together. And then the other thing you said is, "I'm the number one in the world and even I'm scared to fight somebody."

    19. TA

      Yeah.

    20. SB

      Who?

    21. TA

      Who?

    22. SB

      Yeah.

    23. TA

      Everybody. I don't wanna fight anybody. (laughs) I don't, I mean, I wanna fight professionally. I love doing that. But I mean, as far as like a, a confrontation with somebody, that's the last thing I'm trying to do. I don't wanna do that with anybody.

    24. SB

      So, you weren't saying, like, you're scared to fight a particular person?

    25. TA

      Well, yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah. I'm

  19. 29:49 – 32:03

    I'm Scared to Fight Anybody

    1. TA

      scared to fight everybody. Yeah. And I think that, that for, for professional combat athletes across the board, whether that's boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, MMA, whatever you're into, I think that's like a very, very, uh, taboo subject is, like, fear 'cause everybody wants to be this, like, big, like, I'm a freaking 6'5", 115 kilo guy with like cauliflower ears and everything, like, tattoos, the whole lot. It's pretty difficult to sit here a- and say, "I'm scared to fight anybody."... and, uh, like have that and be, and be literally the number one heavyweight in the world. But kind of the realization of the fear that I've got, now that I understand fear and what it is and what it does for me, it just fuels me so much to do what I do. In MMA, we have terms like a gym warrior, people call it. Like, uh, someone who spars in the gym really, really well and then they get under the lights and they don't fight anywhere near what they do in the gym. Now, generally speaking, that is because they don't understand fear properly and I think I've gotten to a place where I completely understand that fear fuels me in a way that nothing else can fuel me and I'm completely comfortable with it.

    2. SB

      I'm super intrigued by this, so I want to talk about this. Um, this idea of fear, but also the journey that you've been on with fear.

    3. TA

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      So, have you always been fearful to fight people?

    5. TA

      Yes. Yeah, and I think that if you're not, you're either lying to yourself or you're a complete idiot. Yeah. I think, I think if you are gonna sit in an arena and the arena's packed to the rims with 20-plus thousand people and there's another guy over the other side of the arena waiting to fight you who's trained for the last 10 weeks and you've got to meet him in the center of the octagon with millions of people watching around the world and know that you can get separated from your own consciousness and you're not scared, you're either lying to yourself or you're just a complete idiot.

    6. SB

      Hmm. With your mum watching for the first time.

    7. TA

      Yeah (laughs) .

    8. SB

      (laughs) Right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, pfff, I see you guys do the walkouts and I'm just like, "Wow."

  20. 32:03 – 33:05

    I've Always Been Fearful to Fight

    1. SB

    2. TA

      Yeah. It's crazy.

    3. SB

      It's hard to ever comment on someone being good or bad at something-

    4. TA

      Yeah.

    5. SB

      ... when it takes that much courage to do that I've clearly not demonstrated in my own life. So, so fear. So you've always been scared to, you've always had fear when faced with an opponent.

    6. TA

      Yes.

    7. SB

      But you also alluded to the fact that there's work that you've done to overcome that fear, or t- y- put it into perspective, I guess.

    8. TA

      Yeah.

    9. SB

      What's that work?

    10. TA

      The, the gym warrior and the guy who's under the lights is, can be two different people, and I've seen it a lot over, over the years. I've seen it so much. Um, still see it now. Still see it all the time. See, when you train... This is, this is my personal opinion. This is not facts, but this is my personal opinion. I would say the training aspect is probably around 80% physical and 20% mental, the training aspect. On fight night, when you are in that arena and you are, you have got them bright lights beaming down on you and you can hear the crowd going crazy and you know that there's millions of people watching you. You've got them tiny gloves on. There's another

  21. 33:05 – 35:37

    Overcoming the Fear

    1. TA

      massive guy stood across from you with his shirt off. I believe it completely flips and becomes about 80-plus percent mental. I remember somebody, I actually can't remember who it was, it might have even been on a podcast or something, saying, "Look, we spend all this time preparing physically." Because to be an MMA fighter, you have to dedicate a lot of time, and I mean a lot of time, to preparing physically. So that, that can be, you know, I train around about, between f- three and five hours a day, possibly, f- on the physical training. And that's not to mention the stretching, the eating, the sleeping, the physio, the saunas, the, all the other stuff that comes with b- becoming a good athlete. So I'm probably dedicating a solid, most of the 24 hours a day, if you're gonna count sleeping as well, which I believe is a part of being a professional athlete, is dedicated to me becoming the best version and athlete of myself as possible. Now, you're dedicating all that time to training, physically. How much are you dedicating to mental, the mental aspect? And if you had asked most fighters, especially at the top level, you're talking top 10 guys in the world, "What do you think is the most important aspect? The physical side or the mental side?" I will guarantee at least 50% of them guys would say the mental side. Now, if you're comparing mental and physical, we're spending this much time on the physical side, but this much time on the mental side, next to nothing.

    2. SB

      Hmm.

    3. TA

      And, uh, I could see a massive discrepancy in that and I wanted to bring the, bring the mental side up.

    4. SB

      So you're in the mental gym too?

    5. TA

      Uh, all the time.

    6. SB

      And what is that?

    7. TA

      A lot of, uh, a lot of visualization. A lot-

    8. SB

      Okay. So talk me through this. Give me... I want as much detail as possible.

    9. TA

      Okay. Okay. So I work with a hypnotherapist, which I think is very important.

    10. SB

      Yeah.

    11. TA

      I write stuff down. I have stuff where I can see it. I'll look at that a lot.

    12. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    13. TA

      Even stuff like, I'm just a massive daydreamer. Massive daydreamer. And I can just see in my mind clearly. This is something that's programmed into me for years and years. Um, it's almost like mental... See, in MMA w- we have a term, and I don't know if this goes across the board, but we call it drilling. So, like, if there's a technique, if you're practicing, like, a one-two and you're doing it repeatedly, you call it drilling. You're drilling a one-two. Drilling is like repetition, repetition. I, like, mentally drill situations. So when you're talking about the walkout, when I'm

  22. 35:37 – 37:57

    Working on Your Mental Strength

    1. TA

      physically walking out, mentally I've walked out 10,000 times before I've actually physically walked out. So by the time I'm there physically, I've been there so many times mentally that it feels quite, quite normal to me. And then I constantly tell myself that I've got to enjoy it because I'm completely aware now especially, I'm closer to the end than I am the beginning now. Definitely. I don't know when I'm gonna retire. I have no plans to retire right now, but I'm definitely closer to the end than I am the beginning. And the moments that we have, these walkout moments, these fear moments of being stood in the cage with another guy who's stood in the cage with me, and we know that once these officials get out of the ring and they close that cage, we are gonna fight and someone is gonna win and someone's gonna lose. Like, those are really special moments and you have to enjoy them. Because when I'm 60 years old, and, uh, hopefully I've got grandkids and I can... I want to be telling them about these special moments and, uh, not wishing them away and really, really enjoying them. And that's something that mentally I try and practice.... being in the moment and enjoying it a lot. And I feel like a lot of fighters, they just, they're just so stressed about the end result that they can't even focus on enjoying themself in the right now. And I know for me, personally, when I'm enjoying myself, that's when I do my best. So, I wanna enjoy myself.

    2. SB

      I want to talk to you about a few things you said there. You talked about visualization was what you mentioned first-

    3. TA

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      ... and writing things down.

    5. TA

      Mm-hmm.

    6. SB

      What kind of things do you write down and, like, what, what's your pro- your whole process there? 'Cause I'm sure there's people at home-

    7. TA

      Mm-hmm.

    8. SB

      ... that would love to understand some of these practices-

    9. TA

      Yeah.

    10. SB

      ... so that they can implement them in their own life. And then also speak to the, the value that it's brought to your life doing these kind of things.

    11. TA

      You talk about visualization. People think about this like weird woo-woo kind of thing, sit- sitting there with crystals on you and weird music and meditate. It's not like that. It's as simple as getting a piece of paper, writing down, "This week, I will do this and enjoy it." That- simple as that. That- that's all I do. "This year, I will win two fights, I will enjoy both of them, and I will perform to my best."

    12. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    13. TA

      And just reading it every so often.

    14. SB

      And how often do you do that? Is it something you do at the start of the year or is it-

    15. TA

      Just, like, sporadically really. I'm not, it's not some, uh, I'm not the kind of guy who goes, "Right, beginning of the year, this is my, uh, visualization board," or anything like that.

  23. 37:57 – 41:30

    Tom's Process of Writing Things Down

    1. TA

      Not that there's anything wrong with that, that's just not what I do, personally. I just wr- when I feel like writing stuff, I'll write it. And most of the time, I've got it under my bedside table or I've got it somewhere that I can see it and I'll pick it up, I'll read it a few times, the same sentence, I'll put it down and I feel like it's in there. I wrote recently that things are working for me because I'm in a really weird situation with my career that I've never really been before where, um, there's a lot of politics involved in my, my kind of next move.

    2. SB

      With Jon Jones?

    3. TA

      Yeah. I think I said to you, like, off camera, he's like, usually it's like, right, get offered a fight, work towards the fight, fight, fight's over, little bit of downtime, another fight, work towards that, fight, over, blah, blah, blah. Whereas now, I'm just kinda, like, a little bit in limbo where I don't know what's happening and I'm just like, "Uh." Usually I'm used to, like, having my life mapped out as to when I need to dedicate more time to this and how much e- what training partner's coming there and what I need to focus on. But now I'm just s- in a little bit of limbo where I don't know really what's going on. And I wanted to really write down just to solidify that all this is happening 'cause I think when, when you are in those kinda situations, I know me personally, I start to, like, conspire in my own, like, that everyone's conspiring against me. Like, "Oh, this is not working out for me." And I start thinking negatively. But I think sometimes you just gotta write down, like, "This is gonna be all right." Like, this is, there, whatever's happening right now, I don't know what it is and I don't know, I can't fix it personally 'cause it's nothing to do with me, but I know that it's gonna wo- it's gonna end up all right and it's gonna work out for me. So, couple of weeks ago, I remember just writing that down, putting it in the thing next to my bed and, uh, sometimes when I'm waking up, I'm feeling a bit stressed, I'll just read it, put it away and then that's it. Yeah.

    4. SB

      So any moment, maybe today, maybe now, maybe your phone upstairs-

    5. TA

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      ... could have a text message on it from Dana White saying, "We're good to go."?

    7. TA

      Yeah, pretty much. I am now, like, training. I'm a- I mean, I'm always training anyway. Training's a massive part of my life. But I could get a text any moment telling me I'm gonna fight in six weeks and that would be amazing. Um-

    8. SB

      And it would be the biggest fight of all time.

    9. TA

      Yeah, but I don't think that's gonna happen because they are giving it that, it's the, definitely, in my opinion, there's a few massive fights to be made at the moment in MMA, uh, but I think as far as thirst from fans-

    10. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. TA

      ... this is the one that people wanna see the most. Um-

    12. SB

      When I say that, does it make you nervous?

    13. TA

      Um-

    14. SB

      Everything I just said and when I said it was the biggest fight of all time?

    15. TA

      Nah, I love it.

    16. SB

      Yeah?

    17. TA

      Yeah, that's what I wanna do. Yeah, that's what I wanna be involved with. Yeah, that's, that's why we do this thing. We don't, like, I have had a lot of fights that nobody cared about (laughs) in all honesty. Like, I've had a lot of fights, b- I think d- people don't realize, like, they see me and other guys at the top of their division, you know, traveling the world, we're making money, we're winning titles, we're doing all this good stuff. Honestly, most of my fights, there was 100 people there and I came away with £100 cash and nobody gave a shit either way. Yeah. That's, uh, and that's, that's the realization of it, like, MMA is such a tough sport to, like, a lot of kids, l- not a lot of kids, but a lot of parents, if I meet a parent on the street who's kid's involved in MMA or whatever, a lot of the time will say, like, "Oh, what advice have you got for..." And in all honesty, a lot of the time, I'm like, "Have a backup plan because it's so difficult to make

  24. 41:30 – 44:22

    Very Few Make Money Fighting

    1. TA

      any money out of, uh," or any, like, I was saying I'm going to an event tomorrow actually, it's a local show. I was, uh, I went to champion on the show. It's a great show. Do you know what I mean? There'll be, there'll be a couple of thousand people there tomorrow and it's a m- there's, got a big fight card. Like, there's maybe 20 fights on, so there's 40 fighters fighting tomorrow night and I'm going to it. And, uh, I was chatting to, to my friend last night actually. He said, "Oh, is there anyone, uh, decent on the card?" I said, "Yeah, yeah. There's a couple of guys on." And he said, "Oh, will a- will anybody go to the UFC?" And we just got chatting about that and, and how that looks and how it looks to get in the UFC and, and I said, "To hon- to be honest with you, if one person out of the 40 can buy a house from MMA, I would be very surprised." And that's one in 40 decent level. Like, it's just so hard to make a living out of MMA. There is absolutely no career path to doing it really, especially in this country. Like, it's getting tougher and tougher and I'm trying to, I'm trying to raise as much awareness about MMA as possible. I want kids to be able to look at guys like me and other guys and be like-If he's making a career out of it, I can, but it is so hard in this country. That's why I'm doing as much as I can to try and get this thing as mainstream as possible.

    2. SB

      I mean, even in the UK, if I think there's been, what, hundreds of thousands of kids that probably practiced MMA over the last couple of years and how many of them really get to the point where they could buy a house from it?

    3. TA

      Really rare.

    4. SB

      You know, you can name them, like, you- you, Conor McGregor, Ian Garry-

    5. TA

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      ... Paddy Pimblett.

    7. TA

      Leon Edwards is another big one.

    8. SB

      Leon Edwards, yeah.

    9. TA

      I mean, there, there's definitely guys who, who have made a lot of money out of it and, and have a good living, but honestly, like, I've been around gyms all my life and I would say 95% of people have never made more than five grand for a fight.

    10. SB

      How much were you getting paid throughout your amateur career? 'Cause you were an amateur fighter up until the point where you basically ran out of people you could fight.

    11. TA

      Yeah.

    12. SB

      Um, I think you had nine amateur fights, right?

    13. TA

      Nine.

    14. SB

      Nine, yeah.

    15. TA

      Which at the time was quite a lot. I would always recommend get as much as, much experience as you can as an amateur before you move on to pro, but yeah, so as a, as an amateur I was obviously getting ticket money. So I'd sell, sell ... Smashing

  25. 44:22 – 48:41

    Tom Aspinall's Career Progression and Fighting Style

    1. TA

      it. I was absolutely smashing it then.

    2. SB

      (laughs) So, so that's, yeah, another ... So you probably made t- two grand or something like that, and then the UFC pays much better.

    3. TA

      Much better. Much better.

    4. SB

      Which is when you can start to make a living from it.

    5. TA

      Yeah, I mean, they start off pretty good. Uh, the thing ... I'm really lucky in the fact that I've got a fan-friendly style. So people want to see me fight. Especially heavyweights, people want to see. A lot, a lot of the people, like, who are not, they've not got a technically trained eye, they want to see two guys punching each other and one guy unconscious.

    6. SB

      Hm.

    7. TA

      That, that's, that's the brutality of it and that's the, that's the reality of it. And my style, generally speaking, brings that. (laughs)

    8. SB

      Well, I mean, generally speaking. Don't you hold the world record for the average fastest-

    9. TA

      Yeah, I do.

    10. SB

      ... time-

    11. TA

      I do yeah, yeah.

    12. SB

      ... that a fight ends?

    13. TA

      Yes. Yeah.

    14. SB

      Which is pretty crazy, so.

    15. TA

      Yeah.

    16. SB

      I mean, that's why you're such a draw, right? 'Cause you're knocking everyone out within two minutes on average.

    17. TA

      Yep. Yep. So, like, you m- I progressed through contracts and money quite quickly because of my style, but not everybody does, so generally speaking, you get, in the UFC you get what's called show money, which is your money to show up.

    18. SB

      Which is? What, what can you tell me?

    19. TA

      Usually it's 10 grand.

    20. SB

      Yeah.

    21. TA

      Dollars.

    22. SB

      Yeah.

    23. TA

      And, I mean, people's contracts are different but I'm just speaking generally. People start off at 10 and 10.

    24. SB

      Yeah.

    25. TA

      They get show money, win money. So generally speaking, and this, this varies amongst ... You know, if someone's got a career in another big organization, sometimes they'll sign them for more than that. But I was coming off a regional show, so I, I think I either got 10 and 10 or 12 and 12, I can't remember. But generally speaking, it's like you get your show money which is between 10 and 15K dollars, and then your win bonus is double your show money usually. So, 10 and 10, 12 and 12, 15 and 15.

    26. SB

      For how long are you on that contract?

    27. TA

      They usually do four fights.

    28. SB

      Okay.

    29. TA

      But the thing is, they can terminate that at any time. So, if you're in, like, a fight that's boring, it's a bit of a stinker, even if you win they can just be like, "Yeah, we're done. Done with that."

    30. SB

      Interesting.

  26. 48:41 – 50:08

    When Do You Start Making Good Money?

    1. TA

      the UFC was kind, kind of like needed me a little bit then. So, um, but to answer the question, everyone's different with that, but ...... with the money aspect. It's like when you start becoming popular and winning fights that ... when people wanna see you, basically. That's, it's just as much about do people wanna watch you fight and that's, that's like a bi- ... it's not just about winning fights. Winning fights is extremely important, but you, you gotta make people wanna see you.

    2. SB

      So, that was against Ser- Sergei Pavlovich.

    3. TA

      That's right. Yeah.

    4. SB

      And that was in the, the end of 2023.

    5. TA

      Yes.

    6. SB

      November. And that was your first six-figure payday because you took that massive fight on short notice.

    7. TA

      Yes.

    8. SB

      It was your biggest payday?

    9. TA

      It was my biggest payday, uh, at the time. I got a bigger one in my last fight.

    10. SB

      Oh, but it was your biggest payday up until that point?

    11. TA

      By far.

    12. SB

      By far?

    13. TA

      By far.

    14. SB

      By how much far? By-

    15. TA

      More than double.

    16. SB

      More than double, yeah?

    17. TA

      Yeah.

    18. SB

      And that was a six-figure payday?

    19. TA

      Yes.

    20. SB

      Okay. The, the reason why that's so surp- surprising and interesting is because you were fighting at that point for the interim heavyweight title.

    21. TA

      Yeah.

    22. SB

      So I'm thinking about those kids back in Salford-

    23. TA

      Yeah.

    24. SB

      ... and if they, if they wanna get a life-threatening six-figure, 'cause that's what it is, six-figure payday, then the journey that you went on is from the age of, what, seven years old you started f- you-

    25. TA

      Seven, eight, something like that, yeah.

    26. SB

      Till you were 30 years old.

    27. TA

      Yep (laughs) . Yeah.

    28. SB

      So,

  27. 50:08 – 51:17

    Sergei Pavlovich Fight

    1. SB

      23 years for you to get a six-figure payday from a heavyweight UFC title. It's a long time. It's a lot of work.

    2. TA

      Yep. It's a l- a whole lotta work. Yep.

    3. SB

      I was thinking about your story arc, and if, if you were to, like, paint it on a graph, like draw it on a graph, am I right in thinking it's, like, slow, flat, and then quite sudden?

    4. TA

      Oh, yeah. There's lot ... Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's, there's a lot of that gone on. They say, don't they, something like it takes years to f- to become an overnight success or whatever?

    5. SB

      Yeah.

    6. TA

      And that's exactly what I'm (laughs) dealing with, yeah.

    7. SB

      Really?

    8. TA

      Y- yeah. It's crazy. Like I say, I've been going since I was eight years old and the stuff that I've gone through in that time is unbeli- ... I'm a massive believer in, like, just outlasting people. Like, just being consistent and outlasting people, a lot of the time, overtakes anything else.

    9. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    10. TA

      But there's so many times ... And a lot of it is down to my dad as well. He's like, I wanted to quit and he's just remind- ... uh, don't get me wrong, I h- I have quit a couple of times, uh, with MMA. And, uh, it's been like, "Tom, I think you really need to think about this

  28. 51:17 – 52:42

    It Takes Years to Become an Overnight Success

    1. TA

      because you've been spending your whole life doing it. Like, don't quit now." Do you know what I mean? Like, there's, there's been a lot of that from my dad and, uh, I think a lot of other dads woulda just been like, "Yeah, you've done enough now. You tried your best. Just leave it at that." Whereas it's always been, you know, my dad's always believed in me. Uh, and my mum as well. Not, not just my dad. And a lot of close people around me as well, to be honest. I'm very lucky in that regard that, uh, people have pushed me to continue, which is great.

    2. SB

      When was the first time you quit?

    3. TA

      I've quit quite a lot of times, mate (laughs) , to be honest.

    4. SB

      Why?

    5. TA

      Uh, a lot of different reasons. Um-

    6. SB

      Give me some of the reasons.

    7. TA

      Injuries.

    8. SB

      Yeah.

    9. TA

      Tough. Ver- very, very tough to deal with injuries as a professional athlete. Not getting regular fights is also tough. See, now, I'm like, I was complaining to you a minute ago about, "Oh, I've not got a fight. Uh, this, that, and the other." But I'm gonna get a fight. The, the thirst from the fans is there. The, the UFC want me to fight. I've got a belt I gotta defend. We gotta unify this. There's, there's millions of dollars at stake here. Like, I'm gonna fight soon. I don't know when it's gonna be. But at one point, nobody cared if I fought or not and I had no money. And that, that ... I think the, the toughest time for me was ... So, I, I had my first kid when I was 23. My wife was pregnant when she was 22, when we were 22, and I had my first kid at 23. And then when I was 24, we found out that she was pregnant again,

  29. 52:42 – 57:19

    Having Kids at 23 and Not Being Able to Support Them

    1. TA

      um, which I'm very happy about, of course. I don't wanna seem like (laughs) it's a negative thing, uh, that we're having twins. And we had the twins. Everything's great. And I had no money, and I mean I didn't have any money at all. And I'm, like, living on this dream of me becoming this global superstar with these millions of pounds in the bank and with these titles and travel. I'm living on that dream, but I'm in Atherton in Greater Manchester. It's raining outside. I can't afford to put fuel in my car, and I've got three kids upstairs crying. Do you know what I mean? That, that's, that's (laughs) what I was on. And I really felt like, at the time, I don't, I don't wanna say, like, I'm some big masculine guy or anything, but I felt a little bit demasculated, if that's all right. I felt like, "I'm here with this wife and kids and I ain't providing nothing." Like, and that was really tough for me mentally at that time, where I'm like, "How am I gonna provide for all these people? Like, I gotta do something else because..." And I felt ... I don't think that people around me were like, "Tom's living in a dream world. He needs to get a proper job and earn some money for his family and kids." I don't think people... 'Cause there was a lot of people around me who actually believe- believed in the dream as well, which is amazing. But I felt the pressure. I felt like people felt like that a little bit, even if they weren't saying it. So, uh, that, I think, for me, was the, the toughest time for me, I think, is when just after I've had my kids, I'm away training every day. I'm, I'm barely spending any time at the ho- at home. When I am spending time at home, I'm completely exhausted from training. The kids have me up all the time. They're crying. My wife's not happy. I've got no money. I train all this time, go to fight, then it gets canceled a week before. Do you know what I mean? That was really, really tough to deal with at the time.

    2. SB

      How do you, from a mental health perspective, how, how were you during that season of life?

    3. TA

      Not great. Very, very tough. I think...First of all, I mean, everybody's different, but having three kids at the age of 25 is quite tough. I don't think I was... (laughs) Well, I wouldn't change it for the world. I absolutely love being a dad. I love my kids to death. They're the most important thing in my life. Um, I wouldn't change it for the world, but I think now, looking back at me, like, seven years ago, having three children, I don't know how I did it. It was really, really tough. Like, I think that's really young and, like, I was very underdeveloped mentally to have that kind of responsibility and raise children and a family and a house and have a wife and try and get my career off the ground. Like, it was really, really tough at the time, so I think I was just in survival mode, to be honest with you. Actually, it's funny you should say 'cause I've been having these conversations recently with a couple of friends. It's like, my friend now is having twins. He's just found out. He asked me, "What's it like?" And I said, "To be honest with you," and I'm gonna be really honest because I, I pride myself as a nice person, "it was the hardest thing I've ever done. I can't even remember the first year." And I can't because it was so difficult and it wasn't just the twins. It was also the money situation, the fact my career's not going anywhere, the stress I was under. Just t- trying to be a young guy but having all this responsibility on me. But like I said, I absolutely wouldn't change it for the world. It's, it's literally shaped me into the person that I am today and I'm really, really proud of where I am now. But, uh, at the time, it, it was very tough on me mentally.

    4. SB

      Was there, was there a hardest moment that you reflect on? 'Cause w- sometimes when we think back to our lives, we can remember, like, a vivid rock bottom-

    5. TA

      Mm-hmm.

    6. SB

      ... where something happened. We went to put petrol in the car or, um, or when we, we were alone and our mind started saying dark things to us. It... Was there a, a, a rock bottom in that period of life?

    7. TA

      I don't... I, I was still, like, aware of how, um, lucky I was to have, like, three beautiful children and, and still be chasing the dream that I was on. But I think I just hated owing anybody money. Like, I felt like I just hate going to people and asking them for money. Like, that was like my worst nightmare and I had to lend, like borrow a lot of money off my dad. I had to borrow some money off friends just to put fuel in the car to get to the gym to be living in what I thought at the time was like a make-believe. I, I didn't think it was a make-believe dream, but I think... I feel like the people on the outside thought, "What is he doing?"

  30. 57:19 – 58:45

    Your Rock Bottom Moment

    1. TA

      (laughs) Like-

    2. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. TA

      ... "What is this guy doing?" Like, "He needs to, like, look after his family." Like, I felt, I felt that a lot. And a lot of that might have just been in my own psyche, to be honest with you. A lot of it I don't think came from my close circle, but I remember, like, having to borrow money from friends to, like, put fuel in my car, buy nappies for my kids and stuff like that just so I can, like, keep living on this dream of having a fight in six weeks, getting 600 quid and being able to give them 20 quid back. Like, that was... It's tough. It was tough.

    4. SB

      Does that not put a lot of pressure on the relationship? 'Cause I mean, bloody hell. Relationships are hard enough without twins, another child-

    5. TA

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      ... um, and everything else that makes life and relationships difficult, so it's quite remarkable that, you know-

    7. TA

      Being in a relationship is not easy-

    8. SB

      Yeah. Tell me about it.

    9. TA

      ... in a... in any (laughs) -

    10. SB

      (laughs)

    11. TA

      ... in any, in any regard. Being in a relationship and sharing your life with somebody isn't easy. Um, yeah, it, it did. It did, but you know what? We got through it and we're really strong and I'm really, uh, happy with the family unit that we've built. I try and be the best dad that I can be. Like, that's more important than anything else to me, um, is just spending time and making my kids, um, as good as I can. And I'm aware that as a dad and as a parent, you can't control as such what your kids... You can't mold a kid into what you want it to be. You can't say, like... 'Cause I got three kids and they're all completely different. They're all brought up exactly the same, but they're all completely different. And you can

  31. 58:45 – 1:01:57

    Tom's Family

    1. TA

      never say, "This is what my kid's gonna be and this is who he's gonna be and how he's gonna be." But just to be able to hopefully bring some kind of positive outlook on their life and, and hopefully give them a positive experience on this earth is, uh, what I'm looking to do.

    2. SB

      Your, your partner, you're married to Justyna?

    3. TA

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      Did she understand?

    5. TA

      Oh, she understands more than anybody. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. If it wasn't for her, my dad, my mum, couple of friends around, I would have been... yeah, I would have been a mess. Absolute mess. Yeah. She was very understanding because I know that most women, they would have been putting the pressure on big time. Yeah. She was... It's... Because when we met, I've been with her since I was 19. She was 19 also. We're the same age. Um, that was my dream from the beginning. So she, like, got on board with that. Um, and she's kept me... She stopped me from quitting a lot of times as well. She stopped me from quitting so many times. Yeah. This, this sport is tough and like I said, there's no... So in football, for example, I know a little bit about football, you start from a grassroots team as a kid, then you go to an academy and then you can get signed at the age of like 12, 13, and start playing for the under-13s and professional club. And there's a place where you can go and obviously football is a tough game. They can cut you off like that as well. But at least there's a career path of what you're gonna do and where you're gonna go. Whereas MMA, you're basically shooting in the dark for 95% of it, um, and I'm very lucky to have people like my wife, my family, my, uh, mum and dad and the people around me who believe in me as well.

    6. SB

      Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, we started talking about this because of that, that kind of graph of your career where it's kind of flat relative to what then happened and then quick all of a sudden. And even when you think about the financials, it's like very, very little and then-

    7. TA

      Yeah.

    8. SB

      ... if you get all the right forces behind you in terms of, like, personality and timing and then someone drops out here, you get the interim shot, you win, then things take off. And that... It's, it's also remarkable to me that it's happened in such a s- short period of time, um, relative to how long you've been doing this because yeah, when I looked down and I saw that this was 2023-

    9. TA

      Yes.

    10. SB

      ... that you got that shot, you're kind of a new face on the scene to some degree, relative to some of the-

    11. TA

      Yeah.

    12. SB

      ... some of these other guys.

    13. TA

      Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I think the new generation is definitely coming in now and in a...... like the old guard, the old champions are kinda- they're at the back end of their career and now it's time for, um, new guys, which is- that's progression. That's- that's great.

    14. SB

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  32. 1:01:57 – 1:03:05

    Ads

    1. SB

      months. For a limited time, my community gets $1,000 off Vanta at vanta.com/stephen. That's V-A-N-T-A dot com slash Stephen for $1,000 off. So Tom, there's this black box in front of me which, um, contains something which represents a pivotal moment in your career.

    2. TA

      Yeah.

    3. SB

      What is in the box?

    4. TA

      We'll remove the belt. I mean, it's not- I'll be honest, mate, it's not that exciting.

    5. SB

      Interesting.

    6. TA

      It probably stinks as well. Can probably smell it from over there.

    7. SB

      I'm okay. I- (laughs)

    8. TA

      Oh, it's clean. It's clean actually. It's not too bad. This is a- this is a knee pad.

    9. SB

      Okay.

    10. TA

      I...

    11. SB

      What is the story behind the knee pad? Why did you bring that?

    12. TA

      So, first of all, I- I've had a knee problem for a long time. I started the knee problem when we were talking about the things that we've just been talking about, the financial struggles. And I knew that I was never kinda like one, two fights away from getting to the UFC, so I wanted to train through the knee problems. Then, I got to the UFC. I'm training. I- I fight, I win. Oh, my knee's- knee's all right. I'm doing- like, I'm doing pretty well here. Like, I can fight with one knee.

  33. 1:03:05 – 1:06:30

    My Knee Problems Helped My Career Growth Massively

    1. TA

      Fight again, I win. Then, I get a new contract. And then, I fight- they offer me another fight. I- I don't want to say no to the UFC. I'm on this roll. I've still got this bad knee. I'm training with one leg and-

    2. SB

      You're training with one leg?

    3. TA

      Yeah. I trained with one leg for a long time. Yeah. Pretty much. I never kicked with the leg. I never went on the knee ever or anything like that. Anyway, this kept going and going. I was fighting with one leg. Then, the most devastating thing that happened in my whole career was my knee just give out in front of 25,000 home fans in the O2 Arena in London in what was a title eliminator fight. So, if either of us would've won that fight, we would've got a title shot next. So, it's a massive fight with- with title imp- implications. And not only did I lose the fight because of the injury, uh... Losing the fight is one thing. Like, if I go in there, I have a good fight, I- I show off all my training, but I get knocked out, for example. Like, even though I'm gonna be sad that I've lost the fight, I am relatively satisfied that I went in there, I had a goal, ca- came up short. Like, I- I can live with that. Whereas with the knee, I went in there, got injured straight away. The knee was down. I couldn't walk. I had surgery, and then I was unsure whether my career was gonna be over or not, and that was a massive, massive turning point in, um, in my life. Not just in my career, but in my life, um, that really, really gave me a chance to think and slow down and figure out what's important and what isn't. And, uh, that all came because of one of the biggest, worst thing that's happened in my life but one of the most important things as well and one of the... I got the most growth from that knee injury than I've got from anything else in my life, I think.

    4. SB

      What kind of growth emerged from that?

    5. TA

      At the time, I was doing a lot of things wrong in my personal life and in my professional life. Like, I had a lot of people around me that shouldn't have been there. I was doing some training sessions and training with people that I shouldn't have really been training with. Um, I wasn't living a good lifestyle in terms of diet and my recovery. I wasn't 100% focused and I should've been, but because everything was going so well and I'm a little bit, uh, like, superstitious, I didn't wanna change anything because I'm like, "Well, it's going well. I don't wanna start changing it." And I knew that there was a lot of things wrong. I knew that there were people that I shouldn't have been surrounding myself with. I knew that there were training sessions that were just wasting my time, really, and there were, um, toxic people around me that shouldn't have been there and I- and I need- they needed to go, but I didn't wanna change everything because it was all going so well. And when- when you talk about, like, a rock bottom moment, when you sat on the floor of the UFC Octagon in the O2 Arena with your leg up in the air and there's 25,000 people who are there for you, um, start leaving the building, it's a bad feeling (laughs) . It's a really bad feeling. So, that really re- made me, like, reassess, um, some of the- the decisions that I was making at the time.

    6. SB

      And the Tom Aspinall before and after that moment...

    7. TA

      Completely different people. I feel like I completely

  34. 1:06:30 – 1:09:54

    Surrounded by Toxic People

    1. TA

      rebuilt myself, not only physically, 'cause I think you can s- look- you'll look at me physically in fights before and see a physical change just in terms of my physique and the way I'm moving around. Obviously, I had one leg before and I've got two legs now, which is way better. But mentally, the growth has been enormous, is that I completely cut out anything negative that was in my life. Anything that wasn't... Anything or anyone that wasn't serving me to become, like, run parallel with my journey to becoming the best heavyweight in the world, I completely cut off and-

    2. SB

      Why?

    3. TA

      Because- 'cause, uh, I was so superstitious, I think.

    4. SB

      But- but why...Why did you- why was it so important for you to remove those people at that particular moment?

    5. TA

      As an athlete, I needed to, uh, not only as an athlete, as a, as a, as a man, I needed to really slow down 'cause I was on this like fast track. It's like I got in the UFC and it was just like fight, fight, fight. But, and every time it's like more and more popular, more interviews, more media, more fame, more money, more this, that. And, and I didn't really have time to like assess really what was around me. I didn't have time to like start cutting people off and start changing this and tweaking this and doing ... I just didn't see it because I was on this like-

    6. SB

      Yeah.

    7. TA

      I was just going and going and going. And when I had that and next minute, I'm sitting on the couch for six months with this big cut on my leg. I can't walk. I'm, like, doing physio and doing all the rest of it. And, um, yeah, I just feel like as an athlete and a man, I really n- had that time to slow down and, and really assess my life and be like, "This isn't working. It needs to change." That was actually the closest point where I was pretty close to throwing in the towel then, to be honest, on my career. Because at that point, I'd not made like mega money or anything but I'd made enough money to like be comfortable and, you know, I bought a house at that time. I'd made some decent money but nothing like life-changing. But I'd made enough money to then, I don't know, be living my life to an all right, you know, standard for however long. Um, and I was like, "Well, I'm financially comfortable now. I've had some fights in the UFC. I've had some success." I was at, I think I was just outside of the top five at that time or something, maybe top 10. You know, I've gone way further than a lot of people have done. Maybe I'll just like leave it there.

    8. SB

      Was there an element of you that wondered if the public would ever want to see you again?

    9. TA

      Oh, of course. Yeah, yeah. Of course. Yeah, definitely. Because I didn't have a f- an actual fight, I felt like people thought I faked the injury or something. So I think like a lot of people thought, "Yeah, he didn't, he didn't really wanna be in there with that opponent."

    10. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. TA

      I felt like, 'cause especially my opponent at the time, Curtis Blaydes, he was like running through everybody. Um, and I felt like a lot of people were like, "Tom just didn't wanna fight." So I felt like very insecure about myself at the time and I really, like when I came back, I really had like a chip on my shoulder and I still got it, that like I wanna, I wanna prove to everybody that, like I am the best heavyweight in the world.

    12. SB

      You got six months on the sofa. Did you read things people are saying?

    13. TA

      I try not to but I always do. (laughs)

    14. SB

      Oh, yeah.

    15. TA

      I try not to but, um, yeah, but I think, I think that's quite healthy in a way though as well. I think it r- that fueled

  35. 1:09:54 – 1:12:07

    How Did You Feel After the Injury?

    1. TA

      me a lot as well is that people started quitting on me and stuff. And a lot of people even like, people were like, "Yeah, you know, you got a lot of ways to make money now. Like you've already done loads of media, you know, you're good, you're good on the mic and stuff. You can maybe be a pundit," and stuff like that. For a time I was like, "Yeah, the, uh, maybe I can. Maybe I can just like, you know, be a pundit and, uh, you know, I've been in there, I've main evented a couple of times and stuff. I've been, fought at almost the elite level."

    2. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. TA

      "Yeah, maybe I, maybe I can just do that." But then I started reading these negative comments and I was like, "No, actually, I wanna fight. Like what, what is this? What, like where am I going?" I'm letting these regular people, like, speak, like talk to me and, and put regular thoughts in my mind and I'm not a regular person. So I'm, I'm an elite special athlete and I always have that belief in myself that I'm not regular and I don't wanna be regular and I can't let regular people tell me how to, uh, how to function. And I was almost at the point where I wa- I was letting regular people tell me how to function and the, the, the kinda like online haters spurred me to be like, "Nah, I've gotta, I've gotta come back and win this title. There's no chance this is gonna be the end of me."

    4. SB

      Did it knock your confidence at all?

    5. TA

      No.

    6. SB

      Even though, even though the nature of the loss and it's your first and only loss in the UFC and you went on to beat this guy in a rematch, um, did it knock your confidence at all even though it was via injury?

    7. TA

      Yeah. No, no, because I was really particular that- So the, there was two things that I really wanted to do after the fight. So I lost to a guy called, uh, Curtis Blaydes. That's when I injured my knee.

    8. SB

      In 15 seconds.

    9. TA

      In 15 seconds, yeah, right at the beginning of the fight. So I wanted to fight Curtis again. That, that was really important to me is that I fight him again because I can't function as a human being knowing that I trained for a fight and didn't actually fight somebody. If I would'a lost, at least I can like look myself in the mirror and be like, "I tried my best. That's all I can do." But, and I seriously had unfinished business. And the other thing was that the injury happened

  36. 1:12:07 – 1:13:40

    Did It Knock Your Confidence?

    1. TA

      at the O2 Arena.

Episode duration: 2:11:09

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