Tony Hawk: The Man With The $1.4 Billion Name! Burnout, Obsession & Regrets

1. 0:00 – 2:28

   Intro

   1. THTony Hawk0:00

      I'm either gonna make this or get taken away on a stretcher. (dramatic music) It changed my life completely. Tony, Tony, Tony!

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:09

      Whoa, whoa, Tony!

   3. THTony Hawk0:09

      Tony, hold on.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:10

      Were you prepared for that?

   5. THTony Hawk0:12

      How could you prepare for anything like that? (bell rings)

   6. NANarrator0:15

      Tony Hawk began riding a skateboard when he was nine years old. And when he turned 16, he was the best skateboarder in the whole wide world.

   7. THTony Hawk0:22

      Yeah! Are you kidding me? Being the outcast and the outcast activity, I got picked on, I got bullied. Even when I turned pro, I would leave high school for a big skate event, I'm signing autographs, and then I would come back and be a ghost in the hallways again. Yeah, I just wanted to see skateboarding get more popular. But I got famous by accident. Suddenly, I was this chosen ambassador. I was making income, I owned a house in my last year of high school. So, I was doing talk shows and I was doing big appearances. My video game was a big hit.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett0:49

      How much revenue?

   9. THTony Hawk0:50

      A billion dollars.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett0:52

       Wow.

   11. THTony Hawk0:53

       The trajectory just seemed like it was never gonna end, and then it dropped very quickly. (image whooshes) I was so hyper-fixated on my skating, I didn't really work on my humanity. I was a machine, and I'd go and do the event and win the trophy and go home. It didn't allow me to be myself very much.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:09

       Did you lose people?

   13. THTony Hawk1:11

       Yeah. Made them feel like they weren't the priority. And a lot of it was just being afraid of intimacy, and I regret that. (image whooshes) I started getting burned out on competition. Ahh!

   14. SBSteven Bartlett1:21

       The term burnout is used a lot these days. What did that experience teach you about what causes burnout?

   15. THTony Hawk1:26

       It taught me that... (image whooshes)

   16. SBSteven Bartlett1:30

       Before we get into this episode, just wanted to say thank you, first and foremost, for being part of this community. Um, the team here at the Diary of a CEO is now almost 30 people, and that's literally because you watch and you subscribe and you, um, leave comments and you like the videos that th- this show's been able to grow. And it's the greatest honor of my life to sit here with these incredible people and just selfishly ask them questions that I'm pondering over or worrying about in my life. But this is just the beginning for the Diary of a CEO. We've got big, big plans to scale this show, um, to every corner of the world and to, to, to diversify our guest selection. And that's enabled by you, by a simple thing that you guys do, which is to watch. So, if there's one thing you could do to help this show and to help us continue to do what we do, it's just to hit the subscribe button. If you like this show, if you like what we do here, if you watch these episodes, please just hit that subscribe button. It means the world. Let's get on with it. (lo-fi music) Tony,

2. 2:28 – 14:07

   Becoming the person I am today

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:30

      not sure if you've ever listened to this podcast before, but I'm quite predictable with how I start these conversations, and I'll, I'll be transparent f- in terms of my rationale. Um, when I read about a story like yours, and I read about how much of an anomaly you were in many respects of your life, I always ask the question, "Why and how? Where did that begin? Where did that start?" And having, you know, read right back into your, your, your parents' history and your history, I saw signs of, of that. But seeing as you're here-

   2. THTony Hawk3:02

      (laughs)

   3. SBSteven Bartlett3:02

      ... best place to ask you, can you give me the context that you believe was pivotal in shaping you to become the person that you are today?

   4. THTony Hawk3:11

      I think early on, I wa- I was obsessed when I first started skating. I found something that spoke to me. I found a community of people that were, we were just a bunch of misfits and outcasts that sort of fit together somehow. And I loved what skateboarding brought to me in terms of my sense of identity, my sense of self-confidence, and the creative aspects around it. I just loved it, and all I wanted to do was, was it as much as possible. Um, and there was no... there was no end goal. There were no, there was no fame or fortune in the cards 'cause no one had ever had that from skating, e- even the top skaters. So, w- what was it? It was just an obsession. And, um, I wanted to do it as best I could always. Even, even when I reached the top of the ranks of competition, I still wanted to get better.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett4:15

      When you say obsessed, um, and the way you describe almost sounds like it was medicine.

   6. THTony Hawk4:21

      Yeah. A- an- and in a lot of ways, it was. I mean, I, I was a smaller kid. Um, I got, we used to call it picked on. I got, (laughs) I got picked on a lot, bullied. And, um, I didn't excel that much in team sports. I, I just kind of was middle ground, um, if that. And then when I found skating, every time I'd go skate, I got better at it. And it w- it was incremental, sometimes almost i- immeasurable, but I knew that I was getting, I was, e- each time I was improving, and I couldn't say that about any of the other sports I was doing. I g- I mean, baseball, basketball, like yeah, sure, sometimes I'd score, mostly I wouldn't, but I never felt like, "Oh, I'm really... I'm really getting to a different level of this." It was more like I did it 'cause it was expected of me. And every time I skated, I got better. Every time I would go to the park, I would learn some little new technique that would lead me to something else.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett5:19

      What was that progression doing for you on a psychological level?

   8. THTony Hawk5:23

      It gave me a sense of purpose. It gave me an outlet for my energy (laughs) and my frustrations, and it gave my, my parents some, um, much needed reprieve from my (laughs) from, uh, my determination. That's my, that's the way my-

   9. SBSteven Bartlett5:42

      (laughs)

   10. THTony Hawk5:42

       ... mom put it, uh, in her best way is that I, I was, I was difficult, I was always very s- thick-headed. I wanted to do my things my way, or I wanted to do them on my terms. And she said when I found skateboarding, I really found, uh, a, a directive for that. And, um, when her friends would say, "He's such a nightmare," she'd say, "He's just very determined."

   11. SBSteven Bartlett6:07

       ... Nancy, that is, right?

   12. THTony Hawk6:08

       Yep.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett6:09

       Frank and Nancy, your parents, what was, what was your home life like with them?

   14. THTony Hawk6:15

       Um, it was pretty quiet. I don't know. I, um, my parents were older when I was born, so it kind of felt like I was raised by grandparents because th- my dad was 45, my mom was 43. By the time I was at an age where I was being very active and doing things, they were, they were kind of re- in retirement mode. Um, so, and, and they, I can't say they were, (sighs) I don't know. They, they, they weren't, (laughs) they weren't close. It was almost like they were just roommates. And so that, uh, uh, uh, definitely rubbed off on me in, in a lot of ways, but, but it just felt like, "Oh, this is just a functional household. It's not full of love necessarily."

   15. SBSteven Bartlett7:05

       I'm the youngest of four. Um, I sometimes ponder whether sometimes the youngest child of the bunch, 'cause you were the youngest of three, right? Um, the parents almost think that they've finished with parenting. (laughs)

   16. THTony Hawk7:20

       Oh, for sure, in my case. My, my older siblings were all ... My, my brother is closest, he's 13 years older than me. So, absolutely, they thought they were done raising children. I was n- I was not planned. And, and I think that my parents were kind of reaching a winter of their, of their marriage, um, even before that or just after I was born, so it was a little icy. And I think that because they were from that generation, they, you know, those generations, you, you stay together no matter what.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett7:50

       Mm-hmm.

   18. THTony Hawk7:51

       And so they did, and, and, um, it's not like it was, it was terrible. Like I said, it just, it just wasn't that warm.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett8:00

       I can also relate to not being, uh, necessarily planned. Was there ever a ... Were you ever cognizant of that? As, as in like were you ever aware that ... Y- it has ... Did that ever have an effect on your psyche that you weren't planned at all?

   20. THTony Hawk8:14

       No, I never thought about that. I guess I, I never ... I, I, I was never that deep in my introspection (laughs) to, to worry or concern myself with that fact. I just knew that I wanted to go skate.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett8:29

       You were really, um, really intelligent kid. I, I read that your IQ was like 144 or something.

   22. THTony Hawk8:35

       I, uh, yeah, maybe at one time. (laughs)

   23. SBSteven Bartlett8:39

       (laughs) Which is, which is surpri- surprising. Typically, I think of, um, a child that has that void of independence and ha- which it sounds like you had, of not necessarily being the best academically or in terms of smarts, especially if they're distracted or preoccupied with something like sports like skateboarding. One would think that academia or intelligence might fall by the wayside.

   24. THTony Hawk8:59

       Um, no, I, I always r- relied on that. I, I, I was in the, um, in the gifted classes, uh, growing up. And so I was with other kids that, that were of that same ilk. And, um, so I always thought that, that my path would be more academia-based. I, you know, I, I, I thought that I would be ... I actually thought I was gonna be a math teacher because I excelled at math and, and I liked helping my friends with it. So I thought, "Oh, that, that is the ... Maybe that's my, my trajectory." And then when I found skating, it wasn't that my academics fell by the wayside, but it was more that, "Oh, maybe I have something else here." And, um, it really wasn't until I was in high school that I realized more of the potential of that.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett9:48

       I feel like skating these days is, um, still is really cool now. But having read back through your story, it seems like it wasn't as-

   26. THTony Hawk9:54

       It was not. (laughs) Not at all. In fact, in my early high school days, I had to hide my ... I had to, I chose to hide my skateboard in the bushes behind the school, um, because I used it as transportation and because I would get hassled carrying it around school. Um, you know, they would, they would say not-so-nice things as, as I would walk, stroll by with my skateboard. Even though I was starting to find some sense of success with it. I, I was actually at that point, uh, sponsored. I had a company that was giving me boards, that was sending me to events, and even when I turned pro, which meant that I was ... Had my own skateboard model, it was just not cool. So it was cool in, in certain sects, like I would, I would leave high school, I would go to, for instance, Houston for a big skate event, and there's all kinds of skaters there. I'm signing autographs, taking photos, and then I would come back from that weekend and maybe even have won some, some money to go to high school and be a ghost in the hallways again. That's the kind of dichotomy I was living.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett11:02

       Y- you talked about how the progress was like a motivating, a driving factor, that, you know, getting incrementally better every time you did it. Outside of the technical aspect of skateboarding, what was the, um, the value for you? Outside of, like, doing the tricks and stuff, what, what, what was, like, filling you up?

   28. THTony Hawk11:20

       Uh, the, the culture, the community of it. I loved everything about it. The, I loved the attitude, the DIY aspect, the, the renegade, um, uh, attitude that you would, you know, to hop fences, you know-

   29. SBSteven Bartlett11:33

       Mm-hmm.

   30. THTony Hawk11:33

       ... to go skate an empty swimming pool or to, uh, to just go skate, um, a, uh, schoolyard. And, and it was just so, there was so much art and creativity involved. It was like a- any skater, it's more, most likely they're gonna, uh, play, also play music or they're also gonna be artists or, or do other interesting things. And so there was a soundtrack to it. It was, it was embedded in, in punk music because that was the same sort of vibe and attitude that we had. And, um, it was just more like, "Oh, this is, this is my scene. This is, this is ... I have this sense of belonging here, and I don't care if I don't fit in with my classmates or my peers."
3. 14:07 – 17:00

   Where does your talent come from?

   1. THTony Hawk14:07

   2. SBSteven Bartlett14:07

      You know when you, you think about why you were able to do that, like, why you were incrementally better or, you know, significantly better than your peer group? Have you ever figured out, in terms of what they call talent, why that is? Is it smarts? Is it physical attributes? Is it-

   3. THTony Hawk14:24

      Um, I think it was that I, I wasn't afraid to step out of my comfort zone, and I also wasn't afraid to get hurt along the way, and I accepted that as part of the process. And I, I can't say that very many people did that. I, I mean, definitely, definitely my peer group, the ones that were skating at the time, they knew what it took to, to get that far and they were willing to take the hits for it, but also, I liked to explore other techniques that weren't comfortable or, or maybe that I even thought were cool, because I wanted to learn everything. And so I would, I would start ... I would go off on these tangents of trying certain tricks or a board manipulation and then lean into that and do every single variation of that, and then move on to something else. And then all of that started to combine into this trick repertoire that I, that I had that was, that was pretty deep.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett15:19

      You know they, they say when you ... if you want to master something, you've gotta do 10,000 hours.

   5. THTony Hawk15:23

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett15:23

      Sounds like you did, uh, a lot of hours at that, at that very early age.

   7. THTony Hawk15:26

      I mean, at some point I was probably doing just one trick 10,000 times. (laughs)

   8. SBSteven Bartlett15:33

      You ... we say all of this ... You know, you said, "Later in my pro career," and then you said you were 16.

   9. THTony Hawk15:38

      Yeah. Well, my -- I've, I've had a pretty lengthy pro career, but I would say that around age 16 is when I started to come into my own and, and was able to shut down any of the, of the pushback or the haters, so to speak, because they were all saying, "Oh, he's only good at his home park," or, "He's only ... you know, he only does these, these goofy little tricks." And then at some point it was like, "You can't really deny that I'm doing these tricks in the most difficult circumstances, and consistently." And so I, I had this, this run of success in my late teens that was, I thought, uh, un- unparalleled, I mean, in terms of suddenly I was, I was making income. I owned a house when I was still in my last year of high school from my earnings, and everything's ... The trajectory just seemed like it was, it was never gonna end, and then it, it dropped very quickly in the early '90s, and then I had ... a good three or four years were very slow, um, and, and touch-and-go in terms of trying to make a living, provide for a family, um, and then things kinda came back around in the, in the late '90s. So when I say early in my ... or, you know, late in my career, there's a few stages of that.

4. 17:00 – 31:45

   My skating career & the struggles along the way

   1. THTony Hawk17:00

   2. SBSteven Bartlett17:00

      And that first stage is from 16 to-

   3. THTony Hawk17:03

      Uh-

   4. SBSteven Bartlett17:03

      ... 25?

   5. THTony Hawk17:03

      ... about 20 th- 23.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett17:05

      23?

   7. THTony Hawk17:06

      Yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett17:06

      And at that point, I read that by 16 years old, you were the best in the world. You were widely ranked.

   9. THTony Hawk17:11

      Uh, I, I, I had ... Well, I, I was ranked number one for a while, yeah. Um, and it's tricky though. I mean, I, I don't like, I don't like saying that just because skating is, is subjective and it's apples to oranges, so who's the best? That's all in the eyes of the beholder. I, I did well in competition. I, I got good scores (laughs) and I had a good run.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett17:33

       I mean, I think you're slightly underplaying that 'cause I ... you know, I was reading through some stats and I read that at 16 you were widely regarded as the best skateboarder in the world, and by 25 you'd won 73 of the 103 professional conte- contests you'd entered, finishing in second place a further 19 times, which is for me, pretty freakish.

   11. THTony Hawk17:54

       I ... Yeah. I mean, I-

   12. SBSteven Bartlett17:55

       (laughs)

   13. THTony Hawk17:55

       Like I said, I had, I had a good run.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett17:56

       (laughs)

   15. THTony Hawk17:56

       But also it, it's a specific style, so I was skating, uh, pools and half-pipes. Um, and then in the early '90s, street skating came into its own and what you see today with people jumping down stairs, on hand-

   16. SBSteven Bartlett18:11

       Mm-hmm.

   17. THTony Hawk18:11

       ... rails, ledges and things like that, that was just starting to blossom, and I realized ...... pretty early on that that was not my strength, and that my, um, ratio of success to injury was a l- much higher (laughs) doing that.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett18:26

       Mm-hmm.

   19. THTony Hawk18:26

       So, I, I kinda, I kinda gave it up. I was in it for a while. I was skating some of the competitions and I was doing a lot of tours and things. And then, at one point, I d- was driving home from a tour. Um, I had sprained one ankle almost to the point of breaking it, but somehow it didn't. And then, in the process of nursing that one, I was still skating 'cause we were on tour, I, I rolled the other ankle trying to save this ankle, and then I'm driving home with these, with these, uh, with ice on both ankles, t- with a car full of, of skaters, and, uh, in that moment, I thought, "I, I can't keep doing it this way." Like, this, this is not sustainable. I'm not gonna be able to be a pro skater much longer if I'm s- if I think I'm gonna do this type of skating, and so I'm gonna stick with more of the halfpipe which, which is what I know. Even though that wasn't the popular way of skating-

   20. SBSteven Bartlett19:21

       Mm-hmm.

   21. THTony Hawk19:21

       ... I just knew that if I wanted to keep skating into my adult life, I was gonna have to stick with, with my expertise.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett19:30

       And I, I'm right in thinking, from what you've said there, that your skating career started to really take off, you know, 15, 16, kind of peaks at one point at around that 23-ish age?

   23. THTony Hawk19:40

       Around, uh, yeah, I would say around 21, 22 is when it started to peak, yeah.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett19:44

       And at what point in that journey did you think, "I'm gonna skate professionally for form the rest of my life"? Was there a point where you go, "This is my job now"?

   25. THTony Hawk19:51

       I didn't.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett19:51

       You never?

   27. THTony Hawk19:51

       No. Um, in fact when I was, uh, 24 is when I started my company, Birdhouse, and I honestly thought starting a company was my way of, of sort of bowing out of the spotlight and not being a, a so-called professional skater, because there was v- there were very l- there was very little opportunity for me as a halfpipe or vert skater to be doing anything, and I was trying to nurture a group of skaters that were mostly street, and trying to give them new opportunities and trying to, uh, have them promote our company as well. So, I thought that I was curating a team and that I was going to be sort of the r- the ringleader of it, but not be considered a pro myself. I never quit skating, though. That was, that was just in my blood. And so at some point, a few years later, things started to pick up again, the X Games happened, um, they had a, they had a halfpipe contest, and I was still on top of my game. So, after that, I started to compete a lot more because m- th- the interest grew, and then I was, I was winning a lot of events.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett21:00

       It's, we, we d- don't often think it's possible for a sport to kind of experience a downturn?

   29. THTony Hawk21:05

       Right.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett21:05

       A commercial downturn. Like, thinking about the big sports of today, the NBA basketball, whatever it be, the thought that it could kind of have an economic downturn and put the athletes out of business for a while is kind of inconceivable for me. So-
5. 31:45 – 43:23

   What did burnout teach you?

   1. THTony Hawk31:45

   2. SBSteven Bartlett31:45

      The, the term burnout is used a lot these days, um, to des- ... People use it in, in their jobs, in works, in, in hobbies and such. What, what, um, what did that experience teach you about what causes burnout?

   3. THTony Hawk31:59

      Um ... Well, it, it taught me that e- even if you're doing what you love, it's not always gonna be enjoyable, um, because of the pressure of success, because of the self-imposed pressure that you put. Um, but what it did teach me was the value of letting go, and when I let go of that, even as hard as it was, 'cause my, my sponsors were saying, "If you quit competing, you're out," there was no other path to success in skateboarding. You couldn't make a living on YouTube, (laughs) on social media-

   4. SBSteven Bartlett32:39

      Mm-hmm.

   5. THTony Hawk32:39

      ... you know, or a reality show or whatever it was. It was just your competition rankings. That was it. That's what your, that's what your success was. And they, they told me, y- you know, "What are you gonna do? How you expect to make a living?" And I was like, "I don't know, but I can't keep going this direction." And what happened was when I was, when I was removed from it, I started to appreciate the process of learning new tricks more. I started to appreciate the idea that I could be more creative and take more chances, and at some point, I, I, I missed competing, but I had to sort of discover that within myself on my own terms. And then when I came back to competing, I let go of the idea of perfection. I let go of the idea that I had to do the best every single time, and I took way more chances. And sometimes it didn't work. Sometimes I didn't make the finals. But when I did make the finals, I was doing it on a level that I was proud of. I wasn't, I wasn't phoning it in, so to speak. I wasn't being conservative with, with my, my approach, and that became much more fun. It was more risky, but when it would work, it was something that I was much more proud of.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett33:55

      Is there, is there, is there a, um ... It sound, it sa- sounded a lot to me like you, you had built this identity because you'd been so successful, and you almost had to kind of decouple from that identity, which always feels like a big risk to people in their jobs.

   7. THTony Hawk34:07

      It was, yeah. It was. But, but, uh, (laughs) it, it was either that or quit, quit altogether, 'cause it was really weighing on me. It was real- ... It was very difficult.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett34:18

      When you say very difficult, what does that mean in, in p- practical terms? You mean like sleepless nights or it, or ...

   9. THTony Hawk34:25

      Uh, yeah, and, and dreading events. Going, going to an event and, and dreading it. I mean, it's, it's, it's almost like Pink Floyd, The Wall. It's just I was building a wall around everyone, around myself, and, and performing was just obligatory because everyone expected me to do it. Uh, everyone expected me to do well to, to win the event, whatever it was, and there was no celebration in that. There was no ... There was nothing that, that made me feel elated. It was just ... It was ... I was a machine, and I'd go and do the event, and, and win the trophy, get the prize money, and go home, and then go skate and go try to learn new tricks. That was the fun part.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett35:16

       Mm-hmm.

   11. THTony Hawk35:17

       But really what I was doing was just trying to prepare for the next event, which is probably another in, a week or two away.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett35:25

       It's, it's, um, it's quite s- surprising, but it's a story that I've heard over and over again, this idea that your success almost disconnected you from, from some- ... It disconnected you from others and probably from yourself in many respects. And I think, I've, I think about this a lot, how when you become successful, you can, you need to be careful that you don't get disconnected along the way. There's lots of temp- temptation with talent to disconnect yourself, um, pe- whether you're a lawyer and you've just been good at being a lawyer, and you end up 20, 15 years down the line, and you go, "What the fuck am I doing here, and who have I become?" Or you're a pro skateboarder, and you kind of drift away from, from the essence of what makes us feel connected.

   13. THTony Hawk36:03

       Oh, for sure. And, and I saw, I saw plenty of my peers ... I think one, one thing that saved me is that I loved the skating so much that I saw my peers get distracted with partying, with the excess, and they would start to lose their motivation and their, and their skill sets.And I recognized that very early on, and thought, "I don't want to go down that road because the skating is too important to me." This, the, I wanted keep performing at a top level. Um, and for sure, I had my, uh, I, I had my distractions through my, through my life, and, and through my adult h- my adult years, but, um, but skating was always such a high priority that, that I never lost that.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett36:50

       Did you have to... You, you talked about you've seen f- your, some of your friends at that time go down the wrong path 'cause, because of temptations.

   15. THTony Hawk36:56

       Yep.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett36:56

       Did you ever notice yourself drifting down that path?

   17. THTony Hawk37:00

       Um, yeah, I think it was more the, when I got caught up in the fame of it all, in, um, more in the late '90s, early 2000s when my video game was a big hit, and suddenly I was not just doing skate events. I was doing talk shows, and I was doing big appearances, and, and getting caught up in that level of fame is very disorienting. And I could see myself, I could see myself f- falling into that where it's like, "Well, I'm, now I'm a celebrity, and now I, uh, will go to the red carpet events and do the..." you know, and, and the clubs and all that. And I, I definitely indulged a bit in that, but at some point recognized that this is just not what I want to be doing, and this is not... Uh, this is not, (laughs) not as fun as skating, and-

   18. SBSteven Bartlett37:56

       Mm-hmm.

   19. THTony Hawk37:56

       ... and these are not the people I really identify with. I mean, a lot, a lot of the people that I saw through those years, especially at the big events and stuff, they, they, all they really wanted was to be famous.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett38:07

       (laughs)

   21. THTony Hawk38:07

       And at some point I, I got famous by accident, and it's not necessarily what I wanted, and at some point I took inventory of that, and I realized that I don't really care. You know what I mean? Like, I don't, I don't care if I don't get into this VIP thing, whatever it is. (laughs) Like-

   22. SBSteven Bartlett38:24

       Mm-hmm.

   23. THTony Hawk38:24

       ... take it or leave it.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett38:28

       I, um, when I got a little bit of money, I think I h- my insecurities meant that I had to have certain beliefs fail me before I learnt them, so I was the kid that went to, like, got a little bit of money, started going to the nightclubs, buying all the champagne. Leaves you feeling fairly hollow after a while if you're (laughs) paying attention.

   25. THTony Hawk38:44

       Absolutely, yeah. I mean, that, that's the thing is that I just felt, especially in, through those years when I was going through the, the fire of, of celebrity culture, I never felt fulfilled, and you'd wake up in the morning, it's like, "What? What was that? What, what good..." And, and also it was, it was distracting me from my own kids, and I think that that's really what, what made me want to make a positive change in my life, is that I, I felt like I was not... I was not to- I was there but I wasn't really available emotionally to my children, um, as much as I could be 'cause I was so distracted with all this, all this other noise. And, um, I, I pulled it around. I mean, I, I was able to get back, get, be more connected, um, just be part of what they were doing even on a more basic level, and that, to me, is way more fulfilling. It i- I mean, that's just, you know, I could... Uh, I could wax poetic, but it, it, I do feel like, I, I feel so much more confident and fulfilled and excited about all those things, to see my kids, um, to see my kids thrive, than to care about getting invited to the Oscars.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett40:03

       I, I, sometimes in my life, you know, my partner's been the person to point that out before I've noticed it in myself. So my girlfriend will notice that I may be losing my way a little bit in terms of priorities, and it'll n- require her feedback to tell me that I'm lo- losing my way a little bit for me to really notice it in myself. Do you resonate with that at all?

   27. THTony Hawk40:23

       Um, I, I would say yes if you were asking me five, 10 years ago.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett40:29

       Mm-hmm.

   29. THTony Hawk40:29

       But now I do see it... I, I see it myself. It, I'm, I'm, I'm much more cognizant of it in, in my own choices. And it is wild. I mean, I, I never imagined that I'd be a pro skater past 20, honestly, because when you were, when you were my, when you were a kid skating in my era, all the, uh, once you reached an age of responsibility, you had to quit because no one could make a... It wasn't anyone's job, right? So, to be skating in my 20s then into my 30s was wild. It was, I mean, I was in uncharted territory, but I was still getting better at it. And then when I reached my 40s, it was like, "Really? Still? Do you guys still think this is okay for me to do?" And not that I was looking for that in, that kind of approval, but it was kind of a surprise. And also I kept getting better at it in those years. And then to be doing it in my 50s is just like, uh, a, a lucid dream. It's crazy that... Um, it's funny. I kind of went through the fire. It was like, when I was a kid, it was like, "Oh, you're pretty good for your age." And then when I got into my 30s and 40s, it was like, "You still skate?"

   30. SBSteven Bartlett41:38

       (laughs)
6. 43:23 – 48:37

   What’s the secret to your success?

   1. THTony Hawk43:23

      on X Games or anything.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett43:25

      Wh- to, to get to your level in any industry, if you were advising a kid that's maybe an artist, a DJ, whatever, when you look back on what it takes to get there, what are the, like, core components of that level of mastery and success? And, like, do you e- You must have sometimes think, like, like, "Why me?" Because, you know, it's living such an, uh, anomalous life and becoming number one in anything, I think ... I, I've seen it over and over again where people start to ask themselves the question, like an existential question, like ...

   3. THTony Hawk43:55

      Uh, sure. Yeah, I ... Every day. But, um, I think to, to answer your question, the focus it takes is, is pretty intense to, to get to do especially what I do, um, for so many years. And also, I think that the ability to, to, to listen and to take cues or inspiration from others around you in terms of inspiring or influencing what you do. And I don't mean like ... I'm not saying, like, borrowing or stealing styles or anything. I'm talking about just being open to, "Oh, that's, that's a new way to do it," and, and even collaborating with people. "What, what if we tried this, or maybe you did that," and, and, um, not just living in your own, in your own bubble, um, because some people tend to do that. They, they have their way. They have, they have ... They found what ... how they succeed, how they keep moving forward, and they stay in that lane, they stay in that bubble. And sometimes that works, but for the most part, you can only go so far with it. And you've got to start to sort of branch out and see what else is there in terms of your chosen activity, sport, art, whatever it is. Um, and I, I love that idea that I'm getting out of my comfort zone and trying something weird. And it's probably not gonna work right away, and it's probably gonna be super ugly when I finally do it. But I'm gonna get to a point where it's more natural.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett45:27

      W- Do, w- What's the balance between learning the rules of the trade, i.e. how it's already been done, and learning to do it your way? I always think this. When ... T- To become great, do you need to, like, be the best at how it's done now, or do you need to, like, add a little sprinkle of yourself?

   5. THTony Hawk45:43

      Well, I ... Luckily, skating is so subjective that adding your own flair to it is always encouraged. And so, for instance, there, there is some tricks, basic tricks that, y- you know, 80% of professional skaters can do this one trick. But if you take a picture of one of them and put it on silhouette, I can tell you who it is, 'cause everyone has their own style of it.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett46:14

      And what makes for a good style, (laughs) subjectively?

   7. THTony Hawk46:18

      It's k- ... I'd say it's sort of the flow of the move from start to finish, including when you're ... before you even leave the ground or the, or the ramp or whatever it is. The, uh ... You know, that you make it look like one, one fluid motion, and that you can twist it, torque it a little differently than someone else, um, but stay in control. That's what it's about. I ... It's, it ... It's really hard to convey.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett46:50

      And some of that has to be, like, you know, talent? I'm struggling with the word talent. But some of it-

   9. THTony Hawk46:57

      Oh, n- nature over nurture.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett46:58

       Yeah.

   11. THTony Hawk46:59

       Sure. Everyone has their own different body types and their own thing. But, but you can see influences, like for instance, um, we have a ... We have this, uh, girl on our team, Reese Nelson. She's very young, but she skates vert ramps. And you can tell who she skates with by her trick selection.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett47:20

       (laughs) Really?

   13. THTony Hawk47:21

       Because she's influenced by the, the ... certain skaters that she's with, and, and some of them have very specific moves that, that are associated with them, and ... Like, she just learned kickflip no slides. All right? I'm just ... I'm, I'm gonna go down, into the weeds for you.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett47:37

       Yeah. (laughs)

   15. THTony Hawk47:38

       She was doing kickflip no slides, which is a signature move of a skater named Collin McKay, and I, and I literally said, "Have you been skating with Collin?" She said, "Yeah, he comes here in the morning sometimes and skates with me." It's like, "There it is."

   16. SBSteven Bartlett47:49

       Interesting. When I ... When you speak to surfers, they talk about how surfing's like a metaphor for life, and they, like, wax lyrical about, you know, what that metaphor is. Is skating a metaphor for life? Uh, it can be, sure. I, I, I think the, the value of not giving up, the value of believing in yourself, and the value of, of working through your own challenges. I think that's probably the, the biggest metaphor. And, and for me, um, what I learned from it is also the value of taking risks.

   17. THTony Hawk48:25

       ... uh, you know, in- in the greater sense, uh, of becoming a businessman. I wasn't afraid to take risks skating, I'm not afraid to take risks in business.

7. 48:37 – 57:27

   Twelve years to master your biggest trick

   1. THTony Hawk48:37

   2. SBSteven Bartlett48:37

      The value of not giving up and taking risks. I heard you spent 12 years trying to master one particular trick, called-

   3. THTony Hawk48:42

      (laughs) Yes.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett48:43

      ... called The 900.

   5. THTony Hawk48:44

      True.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett48:44

      ... which I think I did on the, on the video game back in the day when I was (laughs) when I was younger, which is like a two and a half-

   7. THTony Hawk48:50

      Two and a half spin, yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett48:51

      ... two and a half spin trick.

   9. THTony Hawk48:52

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett48:52

       And it took you... Y- you tried for 12 years, roughly.

   11. THTony Hawk48:55

       Off and on, yes, um, from the first time I tried it, yeah.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett48:58

       Ha- had anyone done it before you?

   13. THTony Hawk49:00

       No. Um, yeah, that was a battle. Um, so I learned 720s in 1985, and the next stage progression for that, in terms of spinning and for skating would be a 900. The, the... What makes it so much more difficult is that you're blind to your landing zone twice when you do a 900. When you do a 540 or even a 720, you're only blind to your landing zone once. And when you pass it twice, it's very hard to spot where you should be or to even know, uh, spatially where you are. So, it took me the first probably five years of attempts just to figure out where I was in the air. And when I say five years, I'm not talking about, like, every day. It was more I would, I would get fired up, I would... I'd had a g- a good session or I was skating a really good ramp, and then I would try a couple. And they always, uh, ended in some sort of injury (laughs) , you know. You wouldn't... It was very hard to get out of it safely.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett50:03

       Mm-hmm.

   15. THTony Hawk50:04

       Um, I broke my rib one time when I really thought I had it. But once I figured out that spinning, then I started to explore, "Okay, how do I get the landing?" And that's when I started actually pursuing it. I would say more in re- like, the years of '94 to '96, I was actively trying it regularly. And when I finally thought that I had it, I put it down and then I, I broke my rib, because I was leaning too far forward. And in that moment, I kind of gave up on it. That was in '96. Because I thought I, I had all the pieces to it. I, I had every element. I, I had... In my head, I h- I had... It was the, it was the right takeoff, it was the right setup, it was the right spin. And apparently, I can't figure out how to, how to land it properly. So, fast forward to 1999, um, they were having a best trick event at the X Games. And halfway into the event, (clears throat) I did my best trick, which I had planned that I, I'd only done once before, and it was a variation of a 720. It was, it was a varial 720. So I did that trick, and then I had 10 minutes left of this event. I don't know where else to go from there except try what the next trick that I would (laughs) like to do, which is a 900. Um, and when I started trying it, I'd say the first few attempts I just did for the crowd. It was more like, "This is... This is my next sta- or this is what's next. Maybe it's not for me, but, you know, this is what I w- would like to see done." And then somewhere around my fourth or fifth try, I realized that I'm always getting the right amount of speed, my, my snap is good. The snap is the, the takeoff when you actually leave the, the top of the ramp and grab your board, 'cause a lot of times the snap is... if that's off, it's tragic. My snap was good, I'm... can see the landing zone, and I thought, "You know what? If I'm ever gonna try to land this again, it'll be tonight. And if I break a rib, so what?" (laughs) Like, "I'm either gonna make this or get taken away on a stretcher." Those were the only two outcomes. Um, and then when I did finally try to make it, somewhere around the, I don't know, ninth or 10th attempt, I fell forward again, but I didn't get hurt, and something... There was... Something clicked in my head that said, "Why not shift your weight to your back foot during the spin and then try to land it?" And for some reason, I never had... I never had that clarity, because when I would go to try to make it, I'd get hurt and I'd have to go home.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett52:50

       Mm-hmm.

   17. THTony Hawk52:51

       So in this particular instance, I didn't get hurt, so I thought, "Okay, what if I shift my weight towards the back?" And then I shifted my weight towards the back and I fell backwards, and that was the epiphany. Because all I have to do is split the difference, and then I made the next one.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett53:10

       "All I have to do is split the difference." I mean, to a muggle like me (laughs) , you make it sound easy.

   19. THTony Hawk53:13

       (laughs)

   20. SBSteven Bartlett53:13

       What was that moment like?

   21. THTony Hawk53:16

       It was just a big relief. I mean, it was, it, it was, it was definitely a highlight of my skate career, of my, of my, um, competitive career. But for me, it was just this weight lifted from me, 'cause it had always sort of hung on me that, "Oh, 900, it's got to be possible." And there were a few of us chasing it. There were other skaters that were getting pretty close to it too. Um, but no one had figured out how to ride away.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett53:44

       Once you'd done it once, was it easy to repeat? Easier to repeat?

   23. THTony Hawk53:48

       Y- yeah. It took a while for me to do a second one. And then w- after I did my second one, then I could do it pretty regularly.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett53:55

       And at this time, you've got this deal with Activision bubbling, bubbling away.

   25. THTony Hawk53:58

       W- at that time, we had been working on a video game for about a year and a half. So, there was definitely a, uh, a crazy synergy, perfect storm in that moment, because I did that trick that drew a lot of attention to obviously, m- me, but, uh, but not just me, but skateboarding in general, and the X Games. And then that was in June, and then we released, uh, what became Tony Hawk's Pro Skater in September.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett54:26

       Wow. And I, I was watching the video of you saying that you, you called the guy at Activision to ask him to include the 900 trick.

   27. THTony Hawk54:32

       Neversoft, yeah. I, I emailed him. (laughs)

   28. SBSteven Bartlett54:35

       (laughs)

   29. THTony Hawk54:35

       Yeah, that's a good story. I, I emailed, uh, Neversoft the next day and I said, "Hey, I did this thing, um, and I think that people are going to expect to see it in the game now, and I know we didn't animate a 900, but I feel like if you guys have time to squeeze it in." And we were already in beta with the game, which meant that we were going to submit it to the console manufacturers. And once you do that, you cannot edit it. You can't alter it. Um, and I remember Joel, who was the (laughs) the head of Neversoft, he emailed me back right away and he said, "Way ahead of you. You fucking rule." And then, they got it in.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett55:19

       I mean, and the rest is history, right? (laughs)
8. 57:27 – 1:03:11

   Your video game made $1.4 billion

   1. THTony Hawk57:27

      There was another group doing a game that had contacted me, and I, um, I went down the road with them a little bit and realized that what they were trying to do was so much more, um, I don't know how to, how to explain it. It w- it was more technically difficult to play, because they were trying to truly emulate skating, and I felt like I understood that approach, but at the same time, skating wasn't that big when we released this game or when we were going to release this game, and I wanted something that would be more friendly to the non-skater to play, to understand, to be able to just pick up and start doing tricks. And when I saw what Activision had, they had a very, they had a very early version of a skater doing tricks, m- the way it moved, and it, and to me, it was, it was intuitive. It was perf- it was like right away I started playing it, I started doing tricks, it was almost like it was, it was an extension of, of my body to start doing this on that screen with that skater, and it, something innately felt right about it to me. And so, uh, was there a close call? I, I would say if Activision maybe had called me a month or two later, I might have already l- inked a deal. (laughs)

   2. SBSteven Bartlett58:58

      (clears throat)

   3. THTony Hawk58:59

      So-

   4. SBSteven Bartlett58:59

      Cool.

   5. THTony Hawk58:59

      Um, but I felt very lucky.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett59:00

      On, on the commercial front, I, I read that you'd been offered a kind of, a flat check.

   7. THTony Hawk59:07

      In, well, in, when they were close to launch of the game, they started to sense that there was buzz about it. It was already getting good reviews from, from previews of, of s- the, the game publishers. I mean, not the, the magazine publishers. So, they knew they had a good game overall and they felt this, this surge of interest, and so they offered me a buyout of future royalties right before the game launched. Um ...

   8. SBSteven Bartlett59:41

      (laughs)

   9. THTony Hawk59:41

      Which at the time, it was, they offered me a half a million dollars and they said, you know ... Well, I said, "What does that mean?" They said, "Well, that, that's, you'll get that right now and then no money going forward." And for me, having lived through some really lean times, when they say a half a million dollars, to, to me it sounds like a billion gazillion dollars. I mean, it w- no one had ever spoken those types of (laughs) numbers to me before. Um, but I felt like I was in a pretty good place. I was, I was doing well in other ways. I was, I was still skating a lot, I was doing events. I was, um, I had good endorsements. I was, I was doing, we had Birdhouse was starting to actually be profitable, my skate company, and I had just...... bought a new house with a, with, uh, uh, a not, you know, I, I had a loan. But my loan was manageable, and I thought, "I'm gonna take a risk 'cause I'm doing okay, and I, I don't need that money right now." And even the timing of that. Like, if it had been just a few months before that when I was looking at houses, maybe I would've taken that. Um, but I, I didn't, and that was definitely the best financial decision of my life.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:55

       (laughs) Because that game was a success (laughs) to say the least.

   11. THTony Hawk1:00:58

       That one, and then the ones after it, and the ones after it, yeah.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:01

       How, how do, how does one que- that might not understand the scale of that success quantify in a, in a dollar amount how many, how much revenue Tony Hawk Pro Skater generated in its, in its legacy?

   13. THTony Hawk1:01:13

       I, I mean, I know that they, they talk about a billion dollars for Activision. Um, you know, my take is (laughs) not, not that grandiose, but I am never going to complain. It changed my life completely.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:27

       A billion dollars, they, they generated in sales?

   15. THTony Hawk1:01:30

       That, that was-

   16. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:30

       In sales.

   17. THTony Hawk1:01:30

       ... that was always their, their big buzz, yes.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:34

       So much, I mean, so much happens. Obviously, that, that makes you financially free, um, f- for, you know... But also, you're pr- you become, like, the Michael Jordan of s- of skating. You are, you know... I, I was playing you on my video game on the other side of the world when I was-

   19. THTony Hawk1:01:52

       (laughs)

   20. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:53

       How old was I? I'm gonna say eight, roughly eight.

   21. THTony Hawk1:01:57

       Okay.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:57

       You know? G- you, you become this global icon of a sport. And it's funny, because I didn't know skating before I knew the video game.

   23. THTony Hawk1:02:04

       (laughs)

   24. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:05

       Uh, the, the video game was my way into, to un- even understanding that the sport existed, and I would play it with my brothers. That's a, that's going from zero to 1,000 in terms of notoriety.

   25. THTony Hawk1:02:14

       Oh, for sure. And, and, um, that was never lost on me. I mean, I, I, I felt very lucky to have my name synonymous with a video game and with skateboarding, um, because I had devoted my life to it.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:27

       Were you prep- prepared for that?

   27. THTony Hawk1:02:28

       No. No, how could you prepare for anything like that? There's no way. I mean, it, it, it's, it... To have that kinda success, especially in video games, is reserved for someone like Madden, or Call of Duty, or Grand Theft Auto. I mean, it, it's, you know, to, to have it be your name was wild. And, and nowadays, I mean, we've come a long way. We did a remaster a couple years ago. There is a whole generation of, of kids, I'm not kidding, that have asked me if I was named after a video game.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:01

       (laughs) What'd you tell 'em? (laughs)

   29. THTony Hawk1:03:04

       Sure, that's what it says. Yeah.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:07

       If you were named after a video game? Wow.

9. 1:03:11 – 1:04:11

   Ads

   1. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:11

      As you might know, this show is now sponsored by Airbnb. I can't count how many times Airbnbs have saved me when I'm traveling around the world, whether it's, you know, recently when I went to the jungle in Bali, or whether it's when I'm staying here in the UK or going to business in America. But I can also think of so many times where I've stayed in a host's place on Airbnb, and I've been sat there wondering, "Could my place be an Airbnb as well? And if it could be, how much could I earn?" It turns out you could be sitting on an Airbnb goldmine without even knowing about it. Maybe you have a, a spare room in your house that friends stay from time to time. You could Airbnb that space and make a significant amount of money instead of letting it stay empty. That in-law, that guest house, that annex where your parents sometimes stay, you could Airbnb that and make some extra income for yourself. Whether you could just use some extra money to cover some bills or for something a little bit more fun, your home might be worth a little bit more than you think. And you can find out the answer to that question by going to airbnb.co.uk/host.

10. 1:04:11 – 1:07:48

    What advice would you give your younger self?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:11

       What would you, what advice would you have given yourself if you could've to prepare yourself, if you could just whisper it in your ear?

    2. THTony Hawk1:04:18

       Um, I think I would've, I would've told my younger self to work on, work on your state of mind and your priorities, um, with, with equal effort as you do your skating. I was so hyper-fixated on my skating, and getting better, and my success in skating that, um, I didn't really work on my humanity. I mean, in terms of my relationships and, and being present, and, and maybe that's what it took to get that far. But I think I would just tell my younger self, like, to, to figure out (laughs) figure out how to function more as a human than just a professional.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:07

       Did you lose people?

    4. THTony Hawk1:05:09

       Yeah. Um, and also gained people through, through my, um, changes and through my, through finding my priorities. And I mean, honestly, like, I'm, I'm in a incredible place. I'm happier than I've ever been, and I have much better relationships with my kids, even though most of them are adults. And I'm just more reliable.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:39

       What is, um, what is skating without the relationships? Like, what is skating for you? So if you were to, if I was to say, "Okay, you can skate forever, you can carry on doing your skating, but I'm gonna take away the family and the meaningful relationships," what does life become then?

    6. THTony Hawk1:05:53

       Um, that doesn't sound as fun. (laughs) It's, uh, it's not the end all for me anymore. I love it and I'm gonna keep doing it as long as I can, and probably still push myself in a lot of ways, but that is compartmentalized. And it's... When I do it, I'm all in on it, and I'm doing it, and then I leave it there.... I'm not just obsessing on it the rest of the day.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:21

       I am, I've, I was speaking to a, I think a neuroscientist on this podcast who told me that the brain actually changes as we, as we age, up until about 30, where I think for a male, it r-roughly stops changing when we get to 30, I think he, he said to me. Um, and with that, our priorities change. So in our early 20s, we're like trying to get laid, and like trying to do the things that we'll, whatever, and then as we get into our 30s and, and c- and beyond, our priorities in life shift. Um, did you notice with age your priorities shift, or was it the children? Um...

    8. THTony Hawk1:06:51

       Um, I think I just noticed that I was stuck in a cycle of compulsive behaviors, and something that, that I didn't enjoy and didn't feel like it was helping me to have good relationships with my family, with my kids, and I think I just took inventory and thought, "I gotta make a, a positive change." And so it wasn't, it, it wasn't like my brain was changing and I figured, you know, it was, it was more that I had to go get help, um, lean into therapy, um, figure out how to process all these things, and how to, how to move forward in a, in a much more, um, congruent way with my values, and I was able to do it. It took a while, um, but it was more at into my 40s that that happened.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:43

       What did, what did therapy help you to realize about, about yourself, and why you were exhibiting

11. 1:07:48 – 1:15:40

    Intimacy & fame

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:48

       compulsive behaviors? Did you ever figure out why?

    2. THTony Hawk1:07:51

       Um, yeah, I think a lot of it was just being afraid of intimacy, and, and a lot of that, I'm not blaming my parents, but definitely I didn't have great examples of it growing up, so, um, I, I had to figure that out. And, and, and, and how, well, how to be vulnerable. I think I was always very guarded.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:09

       You and me both.

    4. THTony Hawk1:08:10

       (laughs) It was s- I mean, t- and also d- in those days of having this s- uh, sort of unwanted attention, it made me more guarded 'cause it was like, "Oh, I can't do any- I can't say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing," and, and it, uh, it didn't allow me to be myself very much, and, and I think I'm much more comfortable in my own skin now, and able to, able to, to hold (laughs) more interesting conversations.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:38

       Do y- well, you've got children now, so do you, you know, I often think about like generational cycles. I think about the like the intimacy or the emotional expression that I didn't learn from my parents, and like an, uh, fear that I have had hanging over me is that I might replicate that for my children-

    6. THTony Hawk1:08:53

       Sure.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:53

       ... accidentally.

    8. THTony Hawk1:08:54

       Yeah, and, and, I, I was definitely worried about that. Like, my dad never, n- never said, "I love you," never professed that kinda thing or, or was warm in that sense, and so that was more my example to live by, and, and through the years, and I was, I was very much kinda the same, and, um, at some point let go of that.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:20

       I still struggle with it now. (laughs)

    10. THTony Hawk1:09:23

        Yeah.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:24

        But I j- you know, I, it's, it's funny, I, again, I've spoken to s- lots of just sort of childhood therapists, Gabor Maté, and, um, they talk about like these different types of traumas that we have, and one of them is called goblins and the other's gremlins, and he talks about how goblins are usually before d- the age of 10 years old, and they're very, very hard to shake. So they always kind of live there somewhere in us, so even sometimes saying, being intimate now, or being vulnerable, or saying, "I love you," it's like, it's difficult for me.

    12. THTony Hawk1:09:52

        I get that it's uncomfortable, yes. I'm, I'm, I'm starting to get much more at ease with it, though.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:58

        With practice?

    14. THTony Hawk1:09:59

        With practice, yeah.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:00

        And running the experiment, I guess.

    16. THTony Hawk1:10:02

        Yeah. And also, I see, I see how it makes my kids feel. Uh, uh, uh, it makes them feel seen, and, and loved, and, and important.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:15

        And it's s- particularly important as I've come to learn if you wanna have a good relationship with a woman, or man, but-

    18. THTony Hawk1:10:21

        Yeah, (laughs) yeah, that too.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:23

        ... with... (laughs)

    20. THTony Hawk1:10:24

        Yes.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:24

        My girlfriend is, uh, very much the opposite in terms of intimacy, so it's kind of, it's an ongoing friction. What, what role has, um, your, your wife played in the broader context of your professional success?

    22. THTony Hawk1:10:37

        Just a, a, a feeling of, well, she's, she's just so grounded, and she gives me a sense of home, and she is very supportive, but also has her priorities intact. So when d- in, in deciding what to get involved with, she's my sounding board, um, and, and she's the one who I trust the most with her opinion. And, um, and she understands that, that I am challenged in terms of my sense of intimacy and, and, and how to navigate fatherhood, and she has been so great in, in opening that up for me, um, and, and helping to show me the, the, the best way to navigate it. Um, and just th- that she's not swayed by fanfare-

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:33

        Hmm.

    24. THTony Hawk1:11:33

        ... at all, at all. (laughs)

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:36

        (laughs)

    26. THTony Hawk1:11:36

        She can do away with it altogether. Um, and I love that, and, and I cherish that.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:43

        That, I guess that's what makes it feel like home, right? That all the noise is kept outside.

    28. THTony Hawk1:11:47

        Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if, if you catch us on a Saturday night, we're b- i- and, uh, a lot of times, like, our, s- a couple of our boys are in college, uh, w- one of them is in college up here in LA, one of, uh, of... We have many children, so-

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:03

        Yeah.

    30. THTony Hawk1:12:03

        ... let's just say that sometimes they'll come home for the weekend, and as much as we like seeing 'em, if you catch us on a Saturday night, they're downstairs watching UFC fights with their homies, and we're upstairs hiding from everyone.
12. 1:15:40 – 1:17:24

    Entrepreneurship

    1. THTony Hawk1:15:40

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:40

       Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Of c- yeah. Y- business. There's a, there's a business behind you, eh, even still today, you have a, a big team. Um, what is the, the entrepreneurial side of your life currently? What are your business ventures?

    3. THTony Hawk1:15:54

       We have, um, Hawk apparel, um, s- which is Tony Hawk clothing. Um, we have Birdhouse Skateboards. Birdhouse Apparel is actually its own, uh, subsidiary, um, with a group, um, uh, with a couple guys in Las Vegas that are doing it, which I think is super cool. Um, I have the Skate Park Project, which is a foundation for public skate parks in low-income areas. Um, I'm, I'm part of a lot of different investments and ventures, um, things that I, that I'm interested in. And, um, it, it kinda, it, I can't say that it, it ebbs and flows. Some of them ebbs and flows, but for the most part, um, there's been a crazy trajectory lately. I mean, honestly, it's, it's even surprising to me that, that, um, people are still interested in what I do, uh, personally, and also all the, all the ventures that I'm involved with.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:54

       We, um, we have this new tradition on this podcast, Tony, where we have these cards, and these cards are based on previous guests', um, questions that they've left in the book for the next guest. So basically every guest writes the question for the next guest without knowing who it is, and we've turned it into these conversation cards. And I'm gonna be honest, you know, we d- did this bec- because listeners of this podcast listen because they like slightly deeper questions and context. So it allows them to play at home. Um, I have, I think, eight here. I'm gonna put them in front

13. 1:17:24 – 1:22:02

    The words you never said

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:24

       of you, and all you've gotta do is pick one card.

    2. THTony Hawk1:17:26

       Okay.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:26

       If you're willing to play, and then, uh, answer that question.

    4. THTony Hawk1:17:29

       Okay. You got QR codes? Do I have to scan one?

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:32

       (laughs) No, it's all good. The QR code just tells you who answered it.

    6. THTony Hawk1:17:35

       Oh, okay.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:35

       Which guest answered it.

    8. THTony Hawk1:17:39

       Let's see. What are some words you've never said to anybody? Why haven't you said them, and who should you have sent them to? Um, I, I think that I would have told my wife, even though I thought that I was going to, um, kinda turn my life around and, and change my priorities. Uh, I think that I would've told her that I was, I was really frightened of the, of, of the path, or of trying to make those changes. And, um, I think she knew it, but it probably would've helped to confirm that (laughs) with, with words. And, um, and-... I, I think maybe it would've given her a, a better perspective on my vulnerabilities early on, um, 'cause when we first started dating, I was still kind of chaotic with, with what I was doing and, and my approach to my career and my life and everything. And, and I made, uh, I made a conscious choice to make a positive change, and she knew I was doing that. But I don't think I let on how, how scary that was for me.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:57

       Why, why didn't you tell her?

    10. THTony Hawk1:19:01

        'Cause I wanted her to think that I was so capable of it and so confident with it. Um, but you know what? I mean, she's too intuitive. She knew. (laughs)

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:15

        Yeah, man. Women. (laughs) It's funny, it's funny you say that 'cause recently I've ran the experiment of telling my girlfriend when I'm struggling with something, and I literally told ... Like, I, it was, it felt like an experiment because I was always, like, tough guy.

    12. THTony Hawk1:19:30

        Mm-hmm.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:30

        Like, could never-

    14. THTony Hawk1:19:31

        Yeah.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:32

        ... you know?

    16. THTony Hawk1:19:32

        I think, I think that was it. I was always, I was always guarded, and also I, I managed to get this far with how I was functioning, um, that I can't say it was, it was the smoothest, but, you know. So I, I, I had some sense of control, but, uh, I think it was more to give up that control. It was probably the, the more scary thing that I should've conveyed. Um, but I feel like, like I said, I, we, we've, we've come so far, especially w- you know, we have a blended family. And, uh, our kids have a blast. We have a blast. We, we cherish our time with them. We cherish our time alone, and, um, I think we have a, a really good, uh ... I, I think we just have great communication and, uh, and intimacy. So I, you know, she doesn't like me talking about her, so-

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:29

        (laughs)

    18. THTony Hawk1:20:29

        ... that's as far as I'm gonna go with it. (laughs)

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:31

        I, I, um, I, I wrote in my diary the other day that I used to think vulnerability was, um, deep down inside me, like tough guy who didn't really learn vulnerability from my parents or anything, I used to think vulnerability was a repellent. What I came to learn-

    20. THTony Hawk1:20:42

        Right.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:43

        ... is that it's a magnet.

    22. THTony Hawk1:20:44

        Yeah.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:44

        And that's when I say around the experiment, s- deep in me, I thought people would, like, run away, "Oh, he's weak." He's whatever." And what happens is the total opposite. It's like you draw them into you.

    24. THTony Hawk1:20:54

        Right. I think, I think what I learned, one of the, one of the things I learned early on is that the bravery actually means sharing your feelings.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:02

        Yeah. (laughs) Yeah. Wh- which doesn't seem to make sense because one would think bravery was the opposite, but-

    26. THTony Hawk1:21:10

        Right.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:10

        ... I'm, I'm on that journey now. In the Diary of a CEO, we have hundreds of questions that have been left by our guests, and we've put them on these cards. And on these cards, you have the question that's been left in the Diary of a CEO, the name of the person who wrote the question, and if you turn it over, there's a QR code. If you scan that code, you can see which guest answered the question and watch the video of them answering it. Every time I've done this podcast and every time we've asked the kind of questions we ask here, I feel a tremendous sense of affinity to the guest. And our aim with these cards is that you can create that sense of connection through vulnerability at home with the people you love the most. And I have some good news for you. As of today, you can add your name to the waiting list to be the first in line to get your own set of conversation cards at theconversationcards.com.

14. 1:22:02 – 1:22:11

    Last guest’s question

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:02

       The question that was actually left for you, um, what have you done recently for someone else? Nice, nice, easy one. (laughs)

Episode duration: 1:27:39