Trevor Noah: What ADHD-driven depression taught him

1. 0:00 – 2:15

   Intro

   1. TNTrevor Noah0:00

      It felt like life was meaningless. (instrumental music plays) I would think to myself, "I hate this. This sucks. I don't know what I wanna do with life anymore." And that's sometimes when the depression would kick in. But I didn't realize that the depression that I was suffering from was untreated ADHD depression. And so, I've learned rules now for myself and for anyone out there. If you are suffering from this, ask yourself a few simple questions.

   2. NANarrator0:24

      Mr. Trevor Noah.

   3. TNTrevor Noah0:25

      The former host of The Daily Show.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:27

      Where he gained a massive following for his humorous yet incisive take on politics and society.

   5. TNTrevor Noah0:31

      I was born to a Black mother and a white father in South Africa at a time when it was illegal in the country. They were scared the police were gonna take me away, and then my mother met my stepfather. And it became an unsafe household.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett0:42

      Your mother had been shot point-blank in the head by this man?

   7. TNTrevor Noah0:46

      Yeah. And from that day onwards, everything changes.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett0:49

      You arrive in America to pursue your dream as being this comedian. You are very hardworking, to say the least, which led to you being the host of The Daily Show. But it didn't go so well at first.

   9. TNTrevor Noah0:57

      It was absolutely terrible. People would just be like, "Go back to where you came from." Death threats. It was really hard, but I persevered. And I would get home at 9:00 PM, work until midnight, get back to the office at 7:00 the next day, and do it all over again.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett1:09

       And then The Daily Show went on to become a smash hit, but what was the cost of it?

   11. TNTrevor Noah1:13

       I had made my life about work, and I had made everything else secondary. And to be honest with you, a lot of people are doing this. We've neglected connection, and I think we're experiencing a generation of men in particular who are not just isolated, but not practiced in the art of connecting. And it's affecting society now.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:29

       So those men that are struggling, where do they need to start?

   13. TNTrevor Noah1:31

       This is a lesson that I've learned if you're struggling with this. So you ... (swoosh)

   14. SBSteven Bartlett1:38

       (instrumental music plays) This has always blown my mind a little bit. 53% of you that listen to this show regularly haven't yet subscribed to this show. So could I ask you for a favor before we start? If you like this show and you like what we do here and you wanna support us, the free, simple way that you can do just that is by hitting the subscribe button. And my commitment to you is, if you do that, then I'll do everything in my power, me and my team, to make sure that this show is better for you every single week. We'll listen to your feedback, we'll find the guests that you want me to speak to, and we'll continue to do what we do. Thank you so much. (instrumental music plays) Trevor, what are

2. 2:15 – 5:19

   Trevor's Childhood

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:15

      the most important things that I need to understand about your earliest years to understand the man that sits in front of me today?

   2. TNTrevor Noah2:24

      Well, that's, that's a tough one because I, I feel like my perception of what the most important things are may not be the most important things. I could say it would be my sense of humor, and then it might be where the sense of humor comes from, which might be my family or my country. It might be which schools I went to. It might be where I've lived or where I've traveled to. It's, uh... Yeah, it's, it's one of those, you know, if you ever tried to break down a food or, or something that you consume, and you go, like, "What is the most important ingredient? What are the ingredients that really make it what it is?" And it's like, is it the crunch? Is it the acid? Is it the salt? Is it the fat? Is it the... What, what, what is it? I, I don't know. I, I genuinely don't kn- If I knew, then I would be able to either create more of me or, or, um, or maybe, like, you know, figure out which parts I wanna tweak. But, uh, I honestly don't know the answer to that question.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett3:15

      I often think of, uh, everyone that I meet, but also myself, through the context of like, uh, I guess a similar analogy, like a set of ingredients that came together that were then put into an oven and, like-

   4. TNTrevor Noah3:25

      Right.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett3:26

      ... the heat was turned on and we were, we were baked. Not to say that we can't be changed after that moment. But, um, what are those ingredients?

   6. TNTrevor Noah3:35

      So, my mother, South African, a Xhosa woman, uh, my father's Swiss, from Switzerland, but was living in South Africa. So those are, those are like the parental ingredients. You know, my grandmother, I think, is a key ingredient 'cause I spent a lot of time with her as a young child. Uh, my grandfather was a crazy, funny man, was bipolar, but we didn't know at the time. I think we knew towards the end of his life. But it, it made him wildly entertaining. Um, yeah, it's, it's, it's an interesting and tough one, you know? Because I, 'cause I often think, as much as we're baked, to what you're saying, I think that we're baked, but then we are very much a product of the people that we then come into contact with. You know? So I think of most people sort of like a, like a sponge cake. Like, most cakes are very basic, most of them, and then what really makes them special is what the baker does to them afterwards. You know? But the fundamental cake is, is, is pretty much the same. And I think people are like that. Yeah, there's, there's certain things, you know, like, you know, color of our skin and tone of voice and all of that. But then I think it's everyone we come into contact with that gives us the icing, that gives us the, the shape, that gives us the, the dynamic texture that makes us who we are. You know? And so I, I, I... Strangely enough, I feel like it's all of these people that I was lucky enough or unlucky enough to bump into that, that gave me a little bit of, of, of that texture and shape. And I think that's the same for everyone, you know? That's, that's probably why I'm so, um, so conscious of choosing my friends, 'cause I, I think that's me actively choosing the people who are gonna keep shaping me as, as I, as I live my life.

3. 5:19 – 7:36

   What Do People Need To Know To Understand Trevor

   1. SBSteven Bartlett5:19

      I've seen you on TV. I've seen you all over the place over the last ten years of my life, but I had no idea of your early context. I had no idea. And it's funny because sometimes you, you kinda see, I don't know, domino 35 in the... All these dominoes that fall. But those early dominoes, I think, often leave a lot of clues as to the domino 35 that we see on screen.

   2. TNTrevor Noah5:41

      Oh, yeah, yeah. Definitely, definitely.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett5:43

      So for someone that might not know your earliest context, like I didn't, what do they... What should they know to understand you?

   4. TNTrevor Noah5:51

      So, I mean, uh, you know, first of all, I was, I was born and raised in South Africa, right? Um, I was born in 1984, so that was, you know, six years before apartheid ended. Born to a Black mother and a white father at a time when it was illegal in the country. Um, and it was strangely unique, you know. Uh, uh, I guess because it was illegal, you know? So, so I grew up in a world where...I didn't see many people like me who had my background. I, I saw some people who looked similar to me, but they had a completely different background. You know, South Africa's racial dynamics are very complicated and sometimes throw people off, especially like internationally, you know. Um, but yeah, that, I think that's, that's one of the, you know, the, that's, that's the beginning of me. And, and then I, I think, you know, I look at these ingredients which, which aren't necessarily the best in, in, in, in choosing your starting points, but then there would, there was, there was a series of, of lucky breaks. You know, the dominoes, as you say. There were a series of lucky breaks. So one of, one of those was apartheid ends, you know? So apartheid ends when I'm six years old and I, I always think to myself about how much that changes my entire life. Because if, if apartheid... Let's say apartheid went for 10 more years, then now I'm 16 and I, I haven't been able to go to the schools that I went to because, you know, only white kids were allowed to go to them, and, and you know, children of color, Black children in South Africa were, were restricted from going to the same schools and weren't allowed to live in certain areas, and your, your whole life was defined by the color of your skin. And, and so that becomes like one of the first dominoes, that I didn't have anything to do with, that changes my life.

4. 7:36 – 11:29

   What Was Apartheid Like For Trevor?

   1. TNTrevor Noah7:36

   2. SBSteven Bartlett7:36

      People that are growing up today aren't aware of what the apartheid is.

   3. TNTrevor Noah7:39

      No. No, no.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett7:41

      I've had to research as an adult to make sure I know what it is. I was born in '92. So for anyone that doesn't know what it's like to be a child that has a, a white father and a Black mother growing up in apartheid South Africa where, as it says on the front of your book, you're considered a crime-

   5. TNTrevor Noah7:59

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett8:00

      ... because your father and mother have different skin colors, wh- what does that environment feel like emotionally for you?

   7. TNTrevor Noah8:08

      So I was lucky. I was lucky in that I think at least on the surface, I didn't feel it. You know, because o- one of the most important things I've learned from my upbringing is a child's reality, for the most part, is defined and created by their parents or their caregivers, you know? So I, I didn't know that my world was strange. I didn't know that my mother wasn't legally allowed to have me. Um, you know, when, when... To, to, to understand the apartheid system, I always try and break it down for people. I, you know, people think of like racism and they go like, "Oh, okay, it's, it's racism." And I'm like, "No, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a much more insidious system that was designed to oppress people based on the color of their skin." So where America just said there's Black and whites and if you had like one drop of blood that was Black, you were Black, and it was a, a very simplistic system, the apartheid system was a, was a culmination of all of the worst ideas from around the world in and around race. You know, so the, the architects of apartheid explored what the Australians did with the Aboriginal people. Um, they, they explored what the Dutch did. That's where the word apartheid comes from. Um, they, they looked at what the Germans did, you know, during, during, um, the, the, the rule of the Nazis in, in Germany. Like Nazi, Germany. They looked at, they looked at every type of racism, including in the US, you know? They, they... It's, it's crazy how much effort they put into doing such a terrible thing. I often joke with my friends and I go, "If they put that amount of effort into making a great country, South Africa probably would've been like one of the most powerful countries in the world by now." 'Cause there was a lot of efforts and it, it's, it's a genius system, but just in the wrong direction. Um, so what that meant for me was I could, I could be born by, by my mother, you know, I, I could be the seed of my father, but I couldn't live with him. We couldn't live with him. We couldn't live together. He couldn't live in our areas. I could... You know, technically speaking, my mother, my father, and myself weren't allowed to live in the same area. That's, that's how granular the system was. So I was considered superior to my mother, and then my father was consis- uh, considered superior to me, you know? And so when I was really young, for instance, I'm still, I'm still an indoor kid, and I think a lot of that is because when I was young, when I was with my grandmother, for instance, and my mom was working, my gram would lock me in the house. I couldn't go outside and play with the other kids. I would escape now and again. She'd always tell me stories about how I would like dig a hole under the gate to go and, (laughs) to go and play with the other kids in the street, but she was terrified. And I thought it was just because she was strict and she loved me, but it was because she was scared the, the police were gonna take me away if they found me running around in Soweto, which was a township where only Black people were supposed to be. And so in the apartheid system, this skin color wasn't considered Black. It didn't... Your culture didn't matter. All that mattered was your shade. And, and that was instrumental in keeping people, keeping a majority as broken up as possible to ensure that they were oppressing many m- minorities as opposed to one majority of people. So it's, it's really complicated. I mean, a- and you know, you've read up on it, but it's, it's a, it's an infinitely complex system around a, a ridiculous idea.

5. 11:29 – 16:34

   I Was Born Ilegal

   1. TNTrevor Noah11:29

   2. SBSteven Bartlett11:29

      So you weren't allowed to be seen in public with your mother?

   3. TNTrevor Noah11:31

      No, no, no. No, not at all.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett11:33

      And you weren't allowed to be seen in public with your father?

   5. TNTrevor Noah11:35

      No, no. My mom... So when I, when I go out in public with my mom, she would, she would... I, I don't even know where she came up with this, but she would act like she was supposed to be with me, but not related to me, you know? So she would, um, she would dress up as, uh, you know, everyone has different words for these in different countries, but like nanny, maid, domestic worker, and she would just act like she's my caretaker, you know? So it would look like my parents, I guess, have hired her to look after me. And so that's how she'd move seamlessly with me in the streets because nobody would suspect it. Um, couldn't be with my father at all in public. That was, that was just out of the question.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett12:15

      A second ago, you said you didn't feel-... this environment, or at least you didn't feel these things-

   7. TNTrevor Noah12:20

      Yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett12:20

      ... to some degree. I, I sat with a guy called Gabor Mate. I don't know if you, you're familiar with him.

   9. TNTrevor Noah12:23

      Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett12:25

       Yeah, and one of the things Gabor talked to me about from his early childhood was this moment when he was younger where, because his, he was, um, Jewish, his... I believe he's Jewish. His mother had to give him up just for a couple of days-

   11. TNTrevor Noah12:37

       Mm-hmm.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett12:37

       ... two or three days-

   13. TNTrevor Noah12:38

       Mm-hmm.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett12:38

       ... because the, the Nazis were gonna come and take her away, so she thought, "To save him, I'll give him up, give him up." It turned out she was okay, so she went back and got him. Now, he cites that moment of trauma of losing his mother just for a little while as being really pivotal to his life, but also in the development of, of his ADHD-

   15. TNTrevor Noah12:54

       Right.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett12:55

       ... and a lot of his sort of internalized shame. And when he said that to me, I was quite shocked that even a couple of days away from a parent, a subtle feeling of neglect at such, such a young age-

   17. TNTrevor Noah13:04

       Mm-hmm.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett13:05

       ... he cites as sort of putting shame into his soul, but also being responsible for some of his ADHD in the context that he thinks of ADHD as being this thing where we learn, because our environment is so externally stressful, we start to avert our attention to, to other things sometimes. Now, the reason I say this is because it highlighted to me the chance and the probability that maybe we might not feel it consciously, though maybe subconsciously at a deeper level, these things shape us in a way that's, um, harder to spot.

   19. TNTrevor Noah13:38

       I, I wouldn't disagree with that. Um, I'm sure, I'm sure his instance was probably harder if he, A, remembers it, and then B, is separated from his mother.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett13:49

       Mm-hmm.

   21. TNTrevor Noah13:49

       You know, I, I, I'm not an expert in the field, but I, I think your mom holds a very different place in your life as a child. You know, I, I, I think we're wired that way, and then I was lucky in that I was, I was seeing my dad. Does, does that make sense?

   22. SBSteven Bartlett14:06

       Yeah, yeah.

   23. TNTrevor Noah14:07

       So, so being in public with a parent is, is n- is not really something of consequence if there isn't that in the world, you know?

   24. SBSteven Bartlett14:15

       Mm-hmm.

   25. TNTrevor Noah14:15

       And so when I, when I think of, like, how we shape realities, I had no other reality to compare it to, so it's not like I was seeing other kids thinking, "Oh, wow. I'm, I'm left out." There were many other kids. You know, even when I talk about my story, I always say to people, "Don't think of this as a, as a s- as a, like, a unique and, and special story." It's just that I happened to be in a place where people talked to me about it, but I am but one story of many others. I knew many kids whose dads had been killed by the police or had been arrested by the apartheid police or had left into exile, and so they couldn't be with their dads for other reasons. So I, in a weird way, I used to think I was, like, the lucky kid. I, I knew my dad, uh, you know? And my dad loved me, and I, I, I would see this man, and it- it was so, like the, the, the feeling of that, I think at that age, maybe wasn't, wasn't apparent for me. I'm, I'm sure I've been more affected by things that happened in my latter years because I was more aware of them. But as a child, I'm just having a good time. I'm spending time with my mom. I'm never not seeing her, and if I'm not with her, I'm with my grandmother, which is, again, normal, you know, in man- many cultures all over the world. But there was never a moment where I, I'm, I'm separated from this person because of the system, and she was brilliant to figure out how to do that. And so I... That's why I say I don't, I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I think everything affects us, and everything can be thought to affect us negatively and positively, and you know, I, I've yet to meet a human being who's had a perfect existence, so I'm very careful to then sort of like point to everything as the reason for-

   26. SBSteven Bartlett15:54

       Mm-hmm.

   27. TNTrevor Noah15:54

       ... because everything is already the reason for.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett15:57

       Yeah.

   29. TNTrevor Noah15:57

       Which... D- does that make sense?

   30. SBSteven Bartlett15:58

       Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. Your mother and your father, were they in love, in your view?
6. 16:34 – 23:50

   Trevor's Mother's Troubled Relationship With New Partner

   1. TNTrevor Noah16:34

   2. SBSteven Bartlett16:34

      And he, and he was called Abel?

   3. TNTrevor Noah16:35

      Yeah. That's, that's my stepfather.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett16:38

      Your stepfather?

   5. TNTrevor Noah16:38

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett16:41

      I, I read about the relationship your mother had with him, and it was, uh, it seemed to be a very complicated and at times violent relationship.

   7. TNTrevor Noah16:46

      Yeah. Yeah, it really was.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett16:49

      Do you, do you understand what that means at that age?

   9. TNTrevor Noah16:54

      It's, you know, it's, it's tough. It's tough to process, because I don't even think I fully know what it means at this age. You know? Like, love, um, violence, domestic abuse, these are things that I don't think anyone fully comprehends. Even when I talk to, like, therapists about it, they, it- it's always like a, it's a theoretical understanding. It's not, it's not a fact.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett17:20

       Mm-hmm.

   11. TNTrevor Noah17:20

       It's like we think that this, and this could be because, and this could cause, and therefore that could be. You know? And, and, and we have brilliant minds who think on what this does and how it creates and, uh, you know? But man, I, you know, I, I, I will never take for granted what it was like, you know, for myself and for any other kid who's experienced it, growing up in a home where there's domestic violence. Like, it's, it's one of the worst things you experience because you live in a world where your parents are like the president in a weird way.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett17:55

       Hmm.

   13. TNTrevor Noah17:55

       You know? When you're a child, your predes- your pre- your parents are the most powerful beings you know. In your head, no one is more powerful than them, and if you ever have the, the, you know, the terrible fortune of seeing your parents, most, most times your mother, being in a position where she's being violently harmed, I mean...... it, it rocks your fundamental understanding of what the world is, you know. So for me, I, I mean, that's something I still deal with in therapy today, you know, because I, I'm, I'm always trying to chip away and trying to understand what is still on me and, and what, what is calloused that I don't wish to be and, and then what is too soft or, or what is... Like, I'm always, I'm always trying to understand it because I, I, I don't think there's one concrete, um, answer for what the experience does to you.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett18:52

       Is there anything still on you?

   15. TNTrevor Noah18:53

       Oh, definitely. I think, I think there always will be, you know?

   16. SBSteven Bartlett18:59

       'Cause, uh, you know, I didn't see- ever see that in my home, but I can only imagine how much that would have exacerbated my further... um, my early perception of what a relationship and what love means, to some degree.

   17. TNTrevor Noah19:12

       So, so you see, like, my, my curiosity- my question to you then is like, when you go "You didn't experience it," I go, "But what did you experience?" And this is- this is the weird thing about the mind, right, is I find whenever- whenever I speak to, I mean, like, brilliant thinkers and, you know, the therapists and, and, you know, psychologists and all these people, what I find fascinating is, is how sometimes your traumas or your perception of your traumas is- is directly proportional to what you lived in your- in your life. So in a weird way, you might have the exact same experience that I have, it's just that mine might have been more physical. Does, does that make sense?

   18. SBSteven Bartlett19:51

       100%. It's an interpretation, right?

   19. TNTrevor Noah19:53

       It's- it's- I'm-

   20. SBSteven Bartlett19:54

       Mm-hmm.

   21. TNTrevor Noah19:54

       ... I'm always fascinated by that, like, by how I can connect with somebody where, in their house, it was- it was more about, like, fighting and bickering and people saying things to each other and, and shouting, and I didn't grow up in that kind of house. But then I've met people who did, and we seem to be kindred spirits because we've both- both experienced, fundamentally, an unsafe h- household, you know, the f- the- the feeling of an unsafe household. And I think that's something that, that many adults are still dealing with or not dealing with. But as a child, I, I... you know? I don't think, "We're sitting there with a little notepad going, 'Well, nothing physical happened here, and that was only words, and this was because of stress and...'"

   22. SBSteven Bartlett20:37

       Mm-hmm.

   23. TNTrevor Noah20:37

       No. We're just experiencing an unsafe environment.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett20:41

       I only really learned about myself, um, in this context through my triggers as an adult, and then kind of (laughs) matching the cards. There's this game where you, like, match the cards together and go, "Snap." And it was, you know, me pursuing a young lady, the young lady turning to me after me trying to get her to date me for like three years and being like, "Let's be in a relationship," and then the feeling I got matched the feeling I had when I was like six or seven and I watched my mother screaming in my father's face. It was like... And that happened enough times, me avoiding romantic relationships and-

   25. TNTrevor Noah21:14

       Oh, that's fascinating.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett21:15

       ... rejecting everyone. The mi- the minute of connection, the minute where we were about to form a relationship-

   27. TNTrevor Noah21:19

       Right, right, right.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett21:19

       ... rejection, being like, "Oh, this is that feeling from my childhood. They're the same thing."

   29. TNTrevor Noah21:22

       How did you- how did you match them?

   30. SBSteven Bartlett21:24

       Because the, the way I would describe the feeling was impending prison time. (laughs)
7. 23:50 – 26:33

   Trevor's Mum's Shooting

   1. SBSteven Bartlett23:50

      You went through something, uh, again, really, really horrific in... You got a phone call one day that your mother had been shot by this man.

   2. TNTrevor Noah23:57

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett23:57

      And he- she'd been shot point-blank in the head by this man.

   4. TNTrevor Noah24:01

      Yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett24:02

      How old were you there?

   6. TNTrevor Noah24:04

      20s-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett24:05

      Mm-hmm.

   8. TNTrevor Noah24:05

      ... when this happened. Let me think. Da-da-da... No, I was in my- I was closer to my 30s because my younger brother was old enough-ish to drive but shouldn't have been able to drive, so maybe he was like 14. So yeah, maybe I'm like 24 at the time, somewhere there.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett24:22

      24. You get a phone call from him, your younger brother?

   10. TNTrevor Noah24:24

       Yeah. Saying mom's been shot.

   11. NANarrator24:30

       ...what goes through your head at that moment when you get a call like that?

   12. TNTrevor Noah24:33

       What went through my head was I knew, I knew exactly, I knew exactly who did it. I knew what had happened. I, like, it's, it's, you know, o- one of the worst things that comes with growing up in a, in a house of domestic abuse and a house where you're dealing with an alcoholic is you become hyper sensitive and you become really good at, at predicting things, you know. So, I mean, my friends know till this day, I've d- like I'll be the kind of person, I'll tell you when we should leave a party before a fight breaks out. I'm never around for the fights because I can, I can feel it. I can feel energy, I can feel... And not like woo-woo, like no, I, I just start noticing people are not having as much fun as they were 20 minutes ago, and a few of the guys are stepping on each other, and the ratio in the room has gotten bad, and the music's not connecting with people. And I'll just, I'll be like, "Ah, it's time to leave." You know? And I, I think that from what I've understood in, in, in, you know, in therapy and in working with people who do the research around this is children start to develop an a- an acute sense, it's like a Spidey Sense, you know. You, you hear the sound of a car and you know which car is bringing danger to the house, you know. I would know by the sounds of, of the footsteps whether or not my stepfather was sober or drunk. Just by his footsteps I knew. By the way he would close or open a door I would know h- whether to be on edge or not. And so when I got that call, everything in me let go. Like it was, it was one of the most... It still is s- like a painful memory, you know. Is, is like the first thought I had was, "Damn, it, it happened. I thought it would, but not like this, but it, it, it, it happened."

   13. NANarrator26:29

       It happened.

   14. TNTrevor Noah26:30

       Yeah.

8. 26:33 – 31:22

   Being Hyper-Empathetic

   1. NANarrator26:33

      What is the cost? Uh, 'cause y- you described that Spidey Sense, it almost sounds like a gift. And I think the interesting thing, to some degree it can be a gift.

   2. TNTrevor Noah26:39

      Yeah, it is a gift.

   3. NANarrator26:40

      I- I mean, creatively.

   4. TNTrevor Noah26:40

      I, I think every gift is a curse.

   5. NANarrator26:42

      And what-

   6. TNTrevor Noah26:42

      And I think every curse is a gift.

   7. NANarrator26:44

      And what is the curse that comes with the gift?

   8. TNTrevor Noah26:47

      So the curse that comes with it is I exist in a space where I am too aware of how other people feel, you know. And, and as I've come to understand what happens to a lot of children who are in abusive households is they develop their hyper sensitivity as a tool to protect the parent because they stopped... In the same way you were saying with your dad, "Why is he just sitting here?" What happens in, in a household of domestic abuse is a child goes, "Oh, my parent does not know when danger is, is impending, and so I then need to be on alert for them because if, if they don't know then I need to be alert. And if I'm alert, I can keep everybody safe." And so you, you develop that acute sense, you develop, you know, your nervous system doesn't, doesn't rest. I would sit in a room and I would, I could feel the people and, and I still have that. I have to like, I now have to practice letting that go, and so part of it is, is probably why I'm a good comedian, but it's like, it's like learning when I want to use it and when I don't. So learning when to ignore it.

   9. NANarrator27:56

      Do you have a choice?

   10. TNTrevor Noah27:57

       Yeah, yeah, you do. You definitely do, you know. I, I think emotions, you don't really have a choice about your emotions most of the time, but you do, you do choose how you react or, or how it affects you. And so what I'll try and do is genuinely, sometimes I'll be, even in a conversation, I, I practice it when it's low stakes. I'll be with friends and I can feel the conversation getting heated and I can feel someone's gonna say something that'll hurt somebody else. And then what I'll practice doing is just keeping quiet and breathing. Whereas what I used to do was I would jump in immediately. I would jump, I would, I would interrupt. I'd interrupt, you know, and I'd be like, be like, "Oh, did you guys see the..." And I would diffuse and I'd find a way. And I was very good at it. I still am. But now I'll just breathe and I'll be like, "Well, let's see where this goes." I know my friends are not gonna hit each other, but I now breathe and go like, "It's not my job to protect everybody." Um, and so I just try and breathe through the feeling and see how it turns out. Sometimes I even do it as a game to see if I am right because sometimes you're predicting what one of the outcomes and it may not be the outcome, you know. And, and I, I then trust that they can also resolve things themselves, and that's probably one of the hardest things is, as a child, because as you said, you're not understanding how your father's a prisoner on this chair getting berated and I as a child am going, "I don't understand why my mother doesn't understand the danger. Why doesn't she leave? And, and wh- why, wh- why is she even getting into a conversation with this man? He's not sober. Wh- why is this happening?" Many children experience this. And then you th- you then go this person cannot protect themselves, so I have to do it for them.

   11. NANarrator29:27

       And how did you try and do that?

   12. TNTrevor Noah29:31

       Sometimes I would, I would, I would just, uh, I would just disrupt anything. You know, I would, I could disrupt a conversation. I could, I could find a way to, to, you know-

   13. NANarrator29:43

       Mm-hmm.

   14. TNTrevor Noah29:43

       ...sort of like, um-

   15. NANarrator29:44

       Distracting.

   16. TNTrevor Noah29:45

       Yeah. You know, like, like Chris Pratt with those, with those raptors in Jurassic Park, just find a way to like snap and, you know, just pull attention, um, find ways to... It, it sounds ridiculous but literally it was, it was me just thinking of ways, you know, do you close a door that then has to be opened that then alerts more people to the presence of somebody, or, or do you turn the TV up in this way, or do you say something to him so that he, you know, his mood might shift in a certain way? Do you... You know? All of, all of these things I w- I wa- I was, I was thinking of. And this is me thinking of these things at the age of s- let's say 9, 10, 11, 12, you know, all the way through.

   17. NANarrator30:33

       And d- does it ever go the other way where you're also trying to...

   18. SBSteven Bartlett30:36

       ... cheer up your mother at all, or t- take care of her spirits, or?

   19. TNTrevor Noah30:40

       No, no. Um, I think my mother's, my mother's gift and, and curse has always been the fact that her religion has, has powered her through.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett30:50

       Mm-hmm.

   21. TNTrevor Noah30:51

       You know? And if you know somebody who's very religious, you'll know that their connection with God and their purpose pushes them through, uh, you know, obstacles that most human beings would never be able to survive. Never, never, never. So there was never, like, despair on the other side that I could feel from my mom. I, I never felt like I had to, like, cheer her up.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett31:11

       Mm-hmm.

   23. TNTrevor Noah31:12

       You know? Um, the house definitely descended into like a, like a doom and you, you could feel there was a, there was a palpable sense of tension post what had happened.

9. 31:22 – 34:44

   What Happened On The Day Of The Shooting

   1. TNTrevor Noah31:22

   2. SBSteven Bartlett31:22

      Uh, that day you, you, you presumably rushed to the hospital.

   3. TNTrevor Noah31:25

      Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett31:25

      Um, you arrived there. You speak to doctors, I imagine?

   5. TNTrevor Noah31:31

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett31:32

      Did you speak to him? Did you, did you tell the police about him? Did you call him-

   7. TNTrevor Noah31:36

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, th- this was all happening in the chaos and the panic.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett31:39

      You called him?

   9. TNTrevor Noah31:41

      I don't remember if I called him or if he called. I, I don't remember how it happened.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett31:46

       Did you speak to him after this event?

   11. TNTrevor Noah31:47

       No. No.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett31:51

       And then you find out that there's been a bit of a miracle, I guess, because the, the bullet has missed all of the fatal parts of the head.

   13. TNTrevor Noah31:58

       I mean, find out is a (sighs) it's, it's, it's such a, um, it's such a drawn out feeling and moment because, uh, y- you know, time is weird in that it stands still when you're experiencing the worst of it and it, it, it flies when it's the best of it. And so, that, that moment, uh, it w- even when you say the word, you, you, you find out or go like, no, that it... What felt like forever was us waiting for the inevitable news that, you know, my mom, our mom was dead. Like, that, that seemed like the, the conclusion. I mean, I've watched movies, you've watched movies, someone gets shot in the head and it's, it's over, you know? So that was a... Yeah, that, that was me grieving. It, it's a very strange experience to have because I grieved somebody, I grieved the loss of my mother, but then she didn't die, but I c- completely grieved her as if she was gone. Like, I, I genu-... I cried because she was gone. I didn't cry because she was hurt. I didn't... I was like, "It's over. It's finished." Every thought ran through my head. I was like, "Well, I'm raising my brothers now." I was like, "Okay, I guess now I'm the head of the household. It's amazing." Like, my brain spun and every day I was really now thinking 10 years ahead. I was like, "Oh, man. Okay. Uh, wh- where, where are we living? What are we doing? How is this gonna work?" And, you know, "Uh, wh- where's my little brother? And what do I tell him? And how do I..." You know?

   14. SBSteven Bartlett33:23

       In that moment, you, you must... You're so interesting 'cause you get to see, in that most horrific way, the fragility of the most important relationship of your, in your life to come out the other side-

   15. TNTrevor Noah33:33

       Yes.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett33:33

       ... and realize how fragile that... 'Cause I... You know, when you talked about our parents almost being this, like, precedence, you also live under the assumption that they're always kinda gonna be there.

   17. TNTrevor Noah33:42

       Yeah.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett33:43

       And in that moment, you got to see that that's not... Hm, that's not tr- guaranteed.

   19. TNTrevor Noah33:48

       Yeah. And that curse ended up being one of my greatest gifts. Because from that day onwards, I have never seen my mother the same way, you know? I, I've never... Like, I, I... Every time I look at her, I'm, I'm grateful that she exists. Every time I, I hold her, I, I... Like, I hold her like it's the last time. I... She even, like, pushes me off sometimes. Like, I, I hug her hard. I hug her hard and I hug her for long. And I think this has extended to other people in my world, to be honest with you, 'cause I, I, I'm very cognizant of the fact that this thing is, is ephemeral. We had... I don't know when it'll, when it'll disappear. So it has made me more appreciative of that. I don't assume, you know? I, I, I hope and I think there's a possibility that we will meet again, you know? But as they say in Arabic, "Inshallah." Uh, God willing. I, I don't know.

10. 34:44 – 36:40

    The Miracle That Saved My Mother

    1. TNTrevor Noah34:44

    2. SBSteven Bartlett34:44

       And it was a bit of a miracle. I was reading... 'Cause you, you're right.

    3. TNTrevor Noah34:46

       Yeah. No, it was.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett34:47

       In movies, you hear someone gets shots in their-

    5. TNTrevor Noah34:49

       Yeah.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett34:49

       ... shot in the head, you never hear that they survive a bullet to the head.

    7. TNTrevor Noah34:51

       Yeah.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett34:51

       Whereas in your mother's case, she survived it by some...

    9. TNTrevor Noah34:55

       Yeah. That, that's where we had to go miracle. And that's where we, we still joke 'till this day, you know? Because, because my mom's very religious. I grew up v- very religious, but very skeptical of re- of religion or anything really. And I was taught to question ironically by my mother. You know, my mother taught me to question. Um, she still questions things. She doesn't, she doesn't, like, follow blindly, so... So I think I, I was, I was in this position and I think many of us were where, "I'm, I'm seeing what I think is, is, is the end." The doctors are saying to me, "We, we're gonna try what we can, but it, it looks terrible." And then we find out that the bullet entered the back of her skull, went through her head and then exited... It, like, it, it shattered... It went... It basically missed the bottom of the brain.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett35:47

        Mm-hmm.

    11. TNTrevor Noah35:48

        And, you know, went, went past the, um, uh, you know, the s- the spinal cord all the way through and then hit her cheekbone, which then deflected the bullet and then went out of her nose. So it, it like cut off a little piece of her nose, but the exit wound wasn't as bad as it could've been and yeah. And they, the doctors couldn't do anything, so there was no brain surgery, there was no opening of an-... It was just stopping bleeding, closing wounds, and now praying. And, and the doctor was the one who said miracle. And he, he said, "I..." He said, "I hate this word because I'm a man of science and I'm, I'm a doctor." He said, "But, uh, this was a miracle." He said, "This shouldn't have happened like this." And then my mom was like, "Yeah, of course. Of course, it's a miracle and of course this is how it was gonna happen." She's like, "Mm, you know, my, my Lord protects me." So...

11. 36:40 – 38:57

    Why Didn't Your Stepdad Go To Prison?

    1. TNTrevor Noah36:41

    2. SBSteven Bartlett36:41

       He didn't go to prison?

    3. TNTrevor Noah36:42

       No. No, he didn't.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett36:47

       How, how, how does, how does that...?

    5. TNTrevor Noah36:49

       So in South Africa, um, I don't think it's unique to South Africa as well, you know, I, I've, when I've traveled to other African countries, I've, I've learned this is unfortunately true. The crime that a man, uh, commits against his wife or his partner isn't given the same validity as if it were committed against a stranger. You know? Uh, the court system doesn't treat it the same, the, the, the law is somehow not applied with the, with the same level of ferocity as if it were somebody else, and so in this instance, you know, they, they basically ruled something to the effect of like, "Oh, it was his first offense," and, uh, you, you know, would he repeat it or not? And it was, but it just, it was a, it's, it's a failing of the justice system that has meant that many women in South Africa and other parts of the world don't feel like justice gets served, you know? You, you see it time and time again. Um, you see it in the US all the time, unfortunately.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett37:52

       Mm-hmm.

    7. TNTrevor Noah37:53

       You know, you'll see man kills wife or wife and family and themselves possibly, and the case just isn't treated with the same... It's always seen as like there's like a, oh, ah, there something went wrong or in a, in, you know, in a tragic love affair. It's al- it's always, it's always labeled like that, and I think that's affected our ability and society to, um... Yeah, I think to treat it the way we should.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett38:22

       When you described the miracle that that bullet traveled b- from the back of your mother's head through, through her, her head and then out her nose, it made me think about what we said at the start of the conversation about dominoes and how ti- in, in this case millimeters changed the course of your life, because as you say-

    9. TNTrevor Noah38:41

       Yeah.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett38:41

        ... these responsibilities you would've then had to assume that-

    11. TNTrevor Noah38:44

        You see?

    12. SBSteven Bartlett38:44

        ... the life you would've-

    13. TNTrevor Noah38:45

        Everything changes.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett38:46

        ... had by millimeters.

    15. TNTrevor Noah38:47

        Yeah, everything changes. I probably don't move to America, I don't explore the world in the same way, I, I take on a whole different role in my life, it... Everything changes.

12. 38:57 – 42:59

    Is Trevor Still Angry?

    1. TNTrevor Noah38:57

    2. SBSteven Bartlett38:57

       What about anger towards him? Towards Abel?

    3. TNTrevor Noah39:00

       Oh, geez, that would... Yeah, that's, that's been a tough one for me 'cause I, I, 'cause I experienced every emotion, you know, I, I talk about it in my book, like I, I have experienced every emotion 'cause, I mean, fear was the first one, the idea that this person could take away, you know, the life of, of someone who arguably I loved the most, um, then like rage, helplessness, um, even, even like shame, feeling like I didn't protect her, like I... Because I knew from the beginning, you know? And I, I talk, literally I talk, I w- I write about this in the book, my grandmother would tell us stories of how... 'Cause she had the best memory in the family, she would tell us stories of how when I was young, when my mom first met my stepdad, she... Like I was, I was saying to the family, I was like, "This guy's great and everything, but I don't think this is a good idea, I don't think he's a good man, I don't think we should trust him." I'd like... I was saying this as a child, you know? And, and the, the one thing that I think confuses people sometime, sometimes when it comes to domestic abuse is that we, we think of it as a binary, you know? So people go like, "How can these bad men live these lives?" But they don't... We don't realize that oftentimes the moment of bad is a, is a, you know, is, is, is the, the explosion, but everything around it is charisma and charm and, and, and jokes and, you know, and I laughed with this man most of my life, you know? I had some of my favorite experiences with him as a human being w- when he was wonderful, he was the most wonderful human being you'd ever meet, and it, it took me a while to, to understand how to, um, how to consolidate those ideas. How, how to, you know, how to resolve the fact that somebody who you love, someone who treated you with, with, with, with respect and, and joy in, in some moments was also the person who brought you the most pain, you know? Um, so I definitely... Anger was like a big one for me, I, I, I fought everything. Anger at myself, anger at my mom for, for staying to, to the point that that could happen, anger at him, anger at the system for not protecting, anger just like just everywhere and then anger dipping into pain and anguish and then, you know, crying it out and then being angry again and then being scared and then just, just going through waves and waves and waves of that, um, and so that, that was a lot of my time in therapy and a lot of my time having conversations with my mom, you know? And my mom would always, always say to me, she'd be like, "You know, over time you learn to forgive." And I was like, "I don't think I could ever forgive." And she was like, "Yeah." She's like, "But, you know, forgiving doesn't mean forgetting. It means letting go of the thing that the person is holding of you as opposed to, you know, you... It's not you letting them into your life, it's not." It's just going like, "Yeah, that happened, I feel for them, I understand many of the things that made them do what they did," and then trying to let go of that, that, that anger that's like burning inside you, that rage, um, and I'm glad my mom did that because in the years since I- I've, you know, I've spent more time reading about domestic abuse and learning about domestic abuse and speaking to experts about it, but unfortunately there's, there's a reason there's a, a vicious cycle. You know? A lot of young boys who grow up in homes where their moms are abused grow up to then become abusers themselves even though they hated the very idea of what they were experiencing, um, and so I... To your point, I think it's because of that now un- unreleased and unrealized anger that they didn't get to express when they were children because they weren't safe and, and then now at some point it, it comes out of them, and so I, I, I genuinely had to deal with it. I had to even accept the idea.... that I was as angry as I was, angry and helpless, which is a terrible combination for a human being to experience.

13. 42:59 – 43:45

    Have You Forgiven Him?

    1. TNTrevor Noah42:59

    2. SBSteven Bartlett42:59

       Have you forgiven him?

    3. TNTrevor Noah43:01

       I think in moments, yes, I think I, I have. I think, uh, the, the, the levels of my forgiveness won't reach my mom's because she was in love with him, you know. To me, this was still a, a person who came into my life. You know, he's not my biological father. So I think my, uh, I, I don't think I, I've ever reached, like, the level of, like, pure, like, "I forgive you," but I do understand. You know, I think I understand a lot of it. Um, I think I, I think I feel sorry for him. I think I, um... yeah, I've learned to come to terms with it, but, like, pure forgiveness? I'd be lying to you if I'm like, "Yeah, I've forgiven." I'm like, no, I, I think so sometimes, and then other times, I go like, "No, actually, actually, I don't."

14. 43:45 – 45:41

    How Does Past Trauma Affect Trevor Today?

    1. TNTrevor Noah43:45

    2. SBSteven Bartlett43:45

       That experience has left fingerprints on you in some way.

    3. TNTrevor Noah43:49

       Oh, definitely.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett43:50

       And how do those fingerprints still show up today in your day-to-day life and your profession?

    5. TNTrevor Noah43:57

       Oh, I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't know the answer to that question because, because the strange thing, again, I think about the mind is that the things that affect us sometimes may not be the things that are as obvious to us as we may think, you know? You can get into a car accident and experience an acute trauma that you, and you know how this affects you, and you'll be shocked that many of the other things you're dealing with in your life where you're struggling aren't actually from that car accident. They're from, like, the minute moments in your life where somebody rejected you, um, you know, you weren't chosen to play on, on a team as a kid, um, you failed a test, you, you were bullied, you... and, and I, I, I don't say this, like, dismissively. I, I say it cautiously. I go like, oh, I w- I, I would be careful to put all of it on that moment because in a, in a weird way, that moment was contained.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett44:58

       Mm-hmm.

    7. TNTrevor Noah44:58

       You know, it came with many other, other instances, but, but yeah, as, as I've sat and explored my, my, myself and my brain and my, my mind in therapy, I've realized that some of the things that you think will affect you the most might not. They might stay in that, in that world, and then there's all these other things that affect you way more than, than you would ever think they even have the right to. So I, I wouldn't know, to be honest with you. I wouldn't be able to say to you, "Oh, I'm like this because of that," or, "I'm like that because of that." No. I do think I appreciate people more, you know? I, um, I'm, I'm very present when I'm with my loved ones. Um... yeah, but other than that, I, I, I couldn't give you a concrete answer that would be... that would be genuine.

15. 45:41 – 51:05

    Men's Mental Health & Loneliness Epidemic

    1. TNTrevor Noah45:41

    2. SBSteven Bartlett45:41

       You said something about y- young men struggling, which is, um, came to mind as you were talking about you being that young man th- who seemed to be quite confused with a v- a variety of emotions and, um, less experience about what the correct outlets were for those emotions. You said recently, in fact, "One of the big things I've been worried about recently is young men and how angry they've become, how alone they've become, how isolated they've become, and then ironically, how they've turned the anger, isolation into a community." There's a couple of words there that seem to fit the shoe that would go on your foot, anger, isolation, um, as a young man, loneliness. C- can you relate to what young men are going through I- in the sort of modern world today? 'Cause the stats on young men is, are quite shocking.

    3. TNTrevor Noah46:33

       Yeah.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett46:33

       The s- the mental health stats, the suicide, suicidality stats, the depression stats, the stats around purposelessness.

    5. TNTrevor Noah46:39

       Mm-hmm.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett46:40

       And I wanted to, to know w- how you're looking at young men today. I get asked all the time by people that li- listen to this show. They say they've got a young son, and the son is struggling. They don't know who they are, where they belong, what their purpose is-

    7. TNTrevor Noah46:50

       Yeah.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett46:50

       ... how to make friends is a big one. How... what, what are you seeing when you look out into the world, the state of young men?

    9. TNTrevor Noah46:55

       So... I think I can empathize with a lot of it, and I think I can relate to some of it, but on my side, you know, other than the anger, let's say, I wasn't isolated. I didn't feel isolated at all. I... because of, because I got to play with other kids and because I was with other kids and because I had my cousins and everybody, I never felt isolated, you know? So even when I was talking to you about my grandmother, I think you used isolated, but I didn't because I genuinely never perceived it as that 'cause I was in the home with people. It's just they were grannies. So (laughs) do, do you get what I'm saying? So I didn't feel, like, isolated in that way. Um, definitely felt like an outsider though, which is a different feeling that's adjacent. I think it occupies the same lexical field, but it isn't, isn't the exact same thing.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett47:41

        Mm-hmm.

    11. TNTrevor Noah47:41

        You know, because isolation, I think, can come with a, like a, a certain solitude and, and a, a certain, you know, a feeling of, like, knowing that you are in this thing alone because you are in this thing alone, but then being an outsider is a different... you know, it's a, it's a different type of torture, and I think that's maybe what a lot of men are experiencing that I can relate to. I think for a long time, we've lived in a world where we've told people what they're supposed to do, how they're supposed to do it, and it was sort of easily realized, right? And now, I'm not... I'm not a, I'm not a historian. I don't know every, you know, history that we've gone through, but from the little that I've read and, and from, from the, the historians that I have spoken to, you know, society goes in these waves, and we move through these waves, and I think we shouldn't take for granted now that there was a whole generation of young men who were given a purpose by war, a lot of war, and war is one of the most powerful thrusts of purpose that a nation will ever experience. Young men are told what they're supposed to be doing. "Your country needs you. You need to go and fight, young man. You need to protect this country." And you're like, "I need to protect this country." Now, even if you don't want to dodge the draft, you've been given a p- a purpose in a strange way. Even if you, you're like, "I'm anti-war." Now you have a purpose. Your purpose is to be against the war. Your purpose is to oppose the war. Your purpose is to spread love and peace. The other person's purpose is to survive the war. Another person's purpose is to win at the war, but-... you have a purpose, and that purpose is powerful and it propels nations forward, you know? And then you enter into a period of, what we would argue is, relative peace. And I say relative because there are many parts of the world where they're just like these constant chronic wars that are waging. But for most people, what are you, what are you doing? You know? Sitting in a world where there is no draft and there, there is no imminent war, and it's, it's a choice now. Do you want to go to the military or do you not? And you don't have to and... And then also, things aren't just given to you, you know? You... Before, when your parents were like, "Go get a job!" it meant there was a job to get. You know? If your parents were like, "Go get a job!" you, you, you could... It was almost harder to not get a job back in the day than it is now, in a strange way, because like, it was just like this thing you do, you know? It was doing. "I sweep, I clean, I..." you know? "I collect, I fix." I... It, it, it was so simple. And I think now, we're living in a world where many young men are, are, are experiencing a purposelessness because it's sort of like not laid out in any way, shape or form, and I, I think we've created such a narrow, a narrow scope of what people can do or can't do or y- you know? Like, we've rewarded so few things that I think we've, we've exacerbated the problem. You know? Gone are the times when being a painter, a philosopher, a... you know? Some sort of artisan is like celebrated in that way. You know? Gone are the days where skills are passed down from generation to generation and... It, it seems like that's, that's less and less becoming a thing and I... From, from, from what I've been told, a lot of it can be tracked back to like industrialization and this consolidation of, of, um, manufacturing, you know? So...

    12. SBSteven Bartlett51:04

        An interesting

16. 51:05 – 59:38

    Why Are Men Struggling

    1. SBSteven Bartlett51:05

       point of this as you were talking was, is because more women are graduating with college degrees-

    2. TNTrevor Noah51:10

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett51:10

       ... and because of the equality movement that's meant that men and women now are both in the workforce at high level positions. I mean, even in that, there's gonna be less jobs available for those men who would clearly before in the past have much more opportunity-

    4. TNTrevor Noah51:22

       Yeah, they would just have the job.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett51:23

       Yeah.

    6. TNTrevor Noah51:24

       Yeah.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett51:24

       And also, there's this really interesting thing that a lady was talking to me about on my podcast where she said that, um, there's still a stigma in society that a man is to be the provider.

    8. TNTrevor Noah51:34

       Yes.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett51:35

       But in a world where they're less able to get those top jobs to provide and women are earning more, which no one's got an issue with at all, um, there's gonna be-

    10. TNTrevor Noah51:42

        Not no one.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett51:43

        Well-

    12. TNTrevor Noah51:43

        Not no one.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett51:43

        Yeah, yeah. Some people have an issue with that.

    14. TNTrevor Noah51:45

        (laughs)

    15. SBSteven Bartlett51:45

        That's true.

    16. TNTrevor Noah51:45

        Yes.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett51:46

        (laughs) I don't have an issue and I, I don't think you do, but, um... But it... They were referring to it as the, you could say, the short man problem or the t- tall girl problem-

    18. TNTrevor Noah51:56

        Huh.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett51:56

        ... where effectively they were saying that women want a date up and to the right-

    20. TNTrevor Noah51:59

        Right.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett51:59

        ... which has been shown in the surveys, but there's less people up to the right now. And this is... So... And I... There was another survey that said 70 or 80% of women want their husband to be a provider, but math, the math doesn't math here because there isn't that many men up there anymore, so... And when you look at the dating stats, the sex stats-

    22. TNTrevor Noah52:18

        Right.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett52:18

        ... the age in which men lose their virginity now, the amount of men that haven't had sex in the last year, it effectively looks like just the top 10% of men-

    24. TNTrevor Noah52:25

        Yes.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett52:25

        ... are having all the fun and the bottom 50% have been-

    26. TNTrevor Noah52:28

        Right.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett52:29

        ... disenfranchised by the system.

    28. TNTrevor Noah52:31

        Yeah, but I... So... I, I, I think about this all the time and I, you know, I try and spend as much time reading, thinking and discussing with people who are far more brilliant than I'll ever be, and what I've come to realize is we may now be experiencing a culmination of the dominoes, you know? We're experiencing the dominoes of a declining middle class and governments around the world no longer propping up the middle class, because anyone who's real about economics knows that like the middle class is an invented thing, really, and it's governments actively saying, "We're gonna create it." Right? So, as that has declined over time and people have sort of created this illusion that, no, everyone can just get there on their own merits and like nothing needs to be created for you, we've seen the middle class decline. What happens then is there's a gap-

    29. SBSteven Bartlett53:20

        Mm-hmm.

    30. TNTrevor Noah53:20

        ... you know, between the rich and the poor. Then there's another domino that falls and it's like the consolidation of wealth. You know, these mega corporations around the world that find ways to not pay taxes, that find ways to pay like slave wages to some people and then sell you a cheap product and then give you credit that you shouldn't get and then put you in a debt cycle that you shouldn't be in, and that's one domino, you know? And then politics becomes more polarized and more extreme because of algorithms and the way we say... That's another domino, that's another domino, that's another domino, that's another domino. Companies find ways, as you said, to hire fewer people to get more out of them or hire different people. That's another domino. And, and in a strange way, I think of this sometimes. I go... You see gifts and curses. This is purely anecdotal in my life. It's not research, but I'm, I'm willing to bet on this and I'm willing to stand by it. One of the curses that women experienced because of being pushed out of the workplace and being like forced to stay at home and for such a long time, was they learned how to find purpose in what most people would consider mundane and maybe even meaningless. You know? Women have found ways to like fill their time with community and with connecting and they found ways to like look after their bodies and, and work out and do things that... And it's different in different communities, like knitting clubs, book clubs, and just, just think about that. It's like it takes up your time, it gives you a purpose. "We're gonna read this book and then we're gonna discuss it and we..." I mean, fundamentally it's nothing, but it's something.
17. 59:38 – 1:03:30

    How Can We Men Be Helped?

    1. TNTrevor Noah59:38

       way.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett59:38

       So those men that are struggling, they, they'll probably be hearing you and thinking that you're so far away from them in terms of that ability to be emotionally expressive and just to check in. For a lot of them, it's uncomfortable.

    3. TNTrevor Noah59:50

       Yeah.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett59:51

       Um, what is it they need? Like, where do they need to start? Is there a place to start?

    5. TNTrevor Noah59:56

       I think it is difficult, but I also think we have tools to make it easy, you know? So I'm, I'm, I'm very hesitant to very quickly just say to every man, "Hey, go out there and be vulnerable" and whatever, because the, the sad truth is, a lot of guys have punished a lot of guys for being vulnerable and being themselves. And we have to acknowledge that as well. You know, there's so many times when a guy will go to their friends and say, "Man, I'm sad." And people are like, "You're sad? Oh, what are you, a pussy?" Oh, look at the guy who's sad. What do you mean she broke up with you? Come on, get out there, man." And now all of a sudden, th- the circle that you had that you thought was protecting you has revealed to you that if you show your vulnerability, you're ostracized from it.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:34

       It's not safe.

    7. TNTrevor Noah1:00:35

       Yeah, so you don't wanna be there. And then, sometimes it will even turn into a fight, you know? Now all of a sudden people are slapping you or hitting you or punching you because you've admitted that you're vulnerable. And so, I, I think, I think that's another place where young men struggle is, like, we have to maintain this bravado, and then we see all these, th- these influencers online who keep telling us, like, "Yeah, you, you're a tough guy. That's what you gotta ... You gotta be a tough man. You gotta be a tough man. That's what you gotta do." But never once are they saying to you, like, "Yo, what do you feel? How do you get rid of those feelings? Or how do you deal with them? How do you process them? Who's your friend that you can, like, literally sit with and cry with? Do you have one?" But I do think we have tools, you know? I, I think, again, you know, gifts and curses. The curse of the online world is that it affords everybody anonymity, and so they can be the worst of themselves. I think the gift is also the anonymity.... you know? I think a lot of people will be shocked at how you can connect to a person online in, like, a really honest and beautiful way because you- you- you're safer, in a way.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:35

       Mm-hmm.

    9. TNTrevor Noah1:01:35

       You know, I- I've- I've made some of my best friends playing, like, Warzone.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:41

        (laughs)

    11. TNTrevor Noah1:01:41

        You know? When, like, when the pandemic hit, so I was like, "Oh, I... " But everyone was playing Warzone, I was like, "I'll jump on." I'm not really, like, an FPS guy, and I jumped on, and I was decent at it, but I made friends playing this game, and I would talk to people, and you'd regularly meet with them. And some people were assholes, but a lot of them weren't, and the ones who weren't, I would re-link up with and we'd play. And then it goes from talking about the game and talking about your load-outs, and then all of a sudden you're talking about your family and your life and how are things and how's your week been and how's work been and what's going on with your boss and that promotion and that... And to this day, one of my friends, one of my closest friends, a person who I, like, consider like a brother to me, is from that video game. I never knew what he looked like, all I knew was what he sounded like.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:21

        Mm-hmm.

    13. TNTrevor Noah1:02:22

        And we- we, like, know each other because we- we explored a world that was, for all intents and purposes, fake, and yet the most real experience that- that- that- that we could have. And I think... You know, I look at, like, Reddit, for instance. I think Reddit's one of the most beautiful communities I've ever seen, where a guy can get on Reddit, you can write a post, and you can say anything. You can say, "I'm struggling with this. I'm having suicidal thoughts. I feel like I don't have a purpose. I feel..." And you'll be shocked at how many other guys will jump on and go, "Hey man, I'm in the same boat. Hey, I'm also struggling. I- I'm also sad. I- I... Also, my parents, I don't have a good relationship with them. I..." You'll be shocked at how that community comes around you because there is the safety of knowing that you're not exposing, like, your name and your face, but you are exposing the thing that's inside you. And so...

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:10

        Is it a shame that we can't do that in person as well?

    15. TNTrevor Noah1:03:12

        Oh, yeah, definitely. I think it's- it's the biggest thing that's limiting men, you know? I think it- it truly is. It's one of the biggest things that's limiting men in society, is that we don't- we don't have an outlet for our emotions. We don't... You know, so if we- if we're not fighting or competing then we're just bottling.

18. 1:03:30 – 1:09:11

    Belonging

    1. TNTrevor Noah1:03:30

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:31

       It comes with a cost, doesn't it, if you bottle things?

    3. TNTrevor Noah1:03:33

       Yeah. Yeah, it does.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:34

       It never really stays inside the bottle. It's like the bottle's got a hole in it or something.

    5. TNTrevor Noah1:03:37

       (laughs) Yeah, exactly.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:39

       You said something I really related to, which is you said you didn't feel like you belonged when you were younger.

    7. TNTrevor Noah1:03:42

       Mm-hmm.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:43

       And I wondered when I was reading, you- you say this in your books and- and other interviews you've done, i- if that was at all related to your skin color. I'm assuming it was in part, but, um, I- I grew up with the exact same feeling. Like, there's a- there's a reason why I don't know anybody from my hometown where I lived for almost... until I was 18 years old.

    9. TNTrevor Noah1:04:00

       Wow!

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:01

        Because I just always felt like we were different. We were all... We were always different. Everyone's white, we're the Black poor family. And also we just talked different. I had different ideas of the world, and dreams, and, um... But even now, I still don't feel like I- I belong. I was with-

    11. TNTrevor Noah1:04:17

        So where do you feel like you most belong, then?

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:19

        No... Like, almost nowhere.

    13. TNTrevor Noah1:04:20

        No, but where do you most belong? There's gotta be a place where you- you feel like you most belong.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:24

        When I'm alone.

    15. TNTrevor Noah1:04:25

        Oh, wow!

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:26

        That's when I feel like I'm... (laughs) That's when you can truly be whatever the fuck (laughs) you wanna be.

    17. TNTrevor Noah1:04:32

        Huh.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:32

        Uh, maybe... Yeah, maybe when I'm alone, I guess.

    19. TNTrevor Noah1:04:35

        That's when you feel like you- you most belong? Okay, let's take it away from alone. I'm saying with other people, or even in a place. Is there a city you go to? Is there a group that you're amongst? Is there... You're telling me there's nowhere that you go to where you think to yourself, "Wow, I- I belong here," uh, you know?

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:50

        It's definitely not a city. Um, I'd say maybe when I'm with my brothers-

    21. TNTrevor Noah1:04:55

        Okay.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:56

        ... at Christmas, um, just because they also didn't really fit anywhere, so we kind of all don't... you know, and they kind of

    23. NANarrator1:05:03

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:03

        ... moved here, so I think that's the only thing. But there's a lot of people that don't feel like they belong and they're trying to find their place in the world.

    25. TNTrevor Noah1:05:11

        Yeah.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:12

        You were a kid from South Africa that didn't feel like-

    27. TNTrevor Noah1:05:14

        Yes.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:14

        ... you belonged. Have you found your place in the world?

    29. TNTrevor Noah1:05:18

        So, I have and I haven't. I- I just find places and moments where I feel comfortable and- and- and I feel like I'm... Yeah, I feel warm is the best way to describe it. And- and this is a lesson that I've learned, actually, if- if you're struggling with this. It- it may not apply to everybody but I think it can help. Sometimes, the feeling of being alone is exacerbated by the fact that you are trying to connect with people based only on you and yourself.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:49

        Mm-hmm.
19. 1:09:11 – 1:12:19

    How Do You Spot A Bad Friend?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:11

       friend? What, like, how do you know? How do you spot one?

    2. TNTrevor Noah1:09:14

       I don't think you spot them, I think you feel it, you know? I, and I think it's a lot easier for us to spot than we think it is. One of the easiest ones is can you be yourself? You know? And sometimes they're not a bad friend, they're a bad friend for you because you are not revealing yourself to them, and so they are being friends with the idea of you, but they're not being friends with you. And then you leave thinking, "I don't feel good," but they don't even know you, so you can't blame them for being a bad friend.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:37

       Mm-hmm.

    4. TNTrevor Noah1:09:37

       You know? I, I, I almost don't think there's such a thing as a bad friend, I think you're just in a bad friendship.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:42

       Mm-hmm.

    6. TNTrevor Noah1:09:43

       You know? You, you... 'Cause they could be a great friend to somebody else, so I, I wouldn't even define them as being a good or bad friend, I just go, "This is a bad friendship for you."

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:51

       Mm-hmm.

    8. TNTrevor Noah1:09:51

       And what I learned very early on was, like, the value of good friendships, you know? And I, I learned because of my mom. I remember once, I was, um, this was, I was 19, 20, I'd just finished high school. So, I was, yeah, I was 19 and just finished high school, and I spent all my time hanging out with, like, friends of mine in, in the hood, you know? And that's, we just did nothing the whole day and we got up to mischief and were like, "How do we make money? How do we hustle? How do we do these things?" And then my cousin went to university, and then I... Because his university, like, had this, like, open-ish policy, you could just hang out on campus all day, and so I started hanging out with him on campus pretty much the whole day when he wasn't in lectures. And then I, uh, I went home one day and my mom was beaming. You know? I walked in with my cousin and my mom was like, "Oh, how are you, Boetyie?" And she's so happy and she's like, "Oh, nice to see you." And, and she said, "Oh, I'm so happy. I'm so happy that you guys are spending this time together." And I said, "Why are you so happy?" And my mom said, "Because you, you spend all your time at, at the university." And I said to my mom, I was like, "Mom, I don't go to university. I just hang around and I do nothing." And she said, "Yes, but the people you're hanging around and doing nothing with will inspire you to do more with your life, because they're doing something with it." And I was like, "What?" And she said to me, she was like, "You cannot be around people who are moving and not wish to move." Whether we like it or not, the people around us are affecting how we see ourselves and how we wish to be seen, and that stuck with me. I, I don't think I took it immediately, but it definitely stuck in my brain. And the friends that I have today are still... I have new friends, uh, you know, as, as I grow in life, but the friends that I have today, my core group of friends, you'll see them with me at the Grammys, uh, you'll see them sometimes, like, w- when I'll be, like, you know, backstage at The Daily Show, you'll see them with me at random events in the world, you'll see them backstage at my comedy shows. You... These people have literally been with me on a journey where they've got their own lives, but our journeys have been intertwined, because they always make me want to be more and do more and grow more and change, and, and I think I do the same thing for them. And we're constantly challenging each other and, and encouraging each other and playing with each other and, and, and that, that has been... Uh, I mean, that's been immeasurable for me, you know? That, that's... I even value that more than I do, like, let's say success.

20. 1:12:19 – 1:16:00

    Trevor's Work Ethic

    1. TNTrevor Noah1:12:19

Episode duration: 2:38:56