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Jefferson Fisher: Why being right ends most relationships

How presence and slower delivery beat racing to win the argument; covers communication breakdowns, gaslighting, and being the anchor in any conflict.

Steven BartletthostJefferson Fisherguest
Dec 22, 20252h 48mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:43

    Intro

    1. SB

      (Dramatic music playing) What are the five most important things for anyone who's striving to be a masterful communicator, to get what they want out of life?

    2. JF

      The first is authenticity. And presence is the highest form of authenticity.

    3. SB

      Okay, on that point, I'm gonna play this video on the screen that went viral of Miley Cyrus and Naomi Campbell.

    4. JF

      Oh, I haven't seen this. (music stops) That's painful to watch.

    5. SB

      Number two?

    6. JF

      Reduce the amount of distraction. Three, stop over-explaining.

    7. SB

      Number four.

    8. JF

      Know how to deal with their sadness. And I'll go through all of these in detail. But number five is, you have to know how to handle the narcissist and the gaslighter.

    9. SB

      What do I do?

    10. JF

      Let me show you. First, you need to ...

    11. SB

      Bam.

    12. JF

      Yeah, for a lot of people, that kind of blows their mind.

    13. NA

      Jefferson Fisher is back, and the board certified trial lawyer is using his expertise in conflict resolution and communication ... To teach couples, friends, employees... And everyone in between how to master difficult conversations.

    14. JF

      Here's the truth, you have to invest in your communication. If I don't say what needs to be said at work, I'll lose that promotion. Same thing in relationships. Most relationships don't fall apart because they fell out of love, they fall out of communication, because of 100 moments where repair could have happened, and it didn't, because you said, "Ah, this is so stupid. This is so small." Like, there's a recent study showing that the biggest predictor of the child's wellbeing within the parental relationship is not whether they were married or divorced, it was how they dealt with conflict. But people are definitely afraid of the conflict that they're in, 'cause they don't know what to say. And so I wanna help them feel controlled in this, feel confident in this. And it's knowing things like, being right is overrated. Or if I respond first with frustration, I'm gonna lose every time. Or, if you want to know how to handle the insults, the patronizing, the dismissive, the first thing you have to do is ...

    15. SB

      That's the mistake I've made multiple times. (Music plays) I see messages all the time in the comments section that some of you didn't realize you didn't subscribe, so if you could do me a favor and double-check if you're a subscriber to this channel, that would be tremendously appreciated. It's the simple, it's the free thing, that anybody that watches this show frequently can do to help us here to keep everything going in this show and the trajectory it's on. So, please do double-check if you've subscribed, and, uh, thank you so much. Because in a strange way, you are- you're part of our history, and you're on this journey with us, and I appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank you. (Music plays) Jefferson Fisher. What do you do professionally? What is your- how would you sort of characterize your profession?

    16. JF

      Well, I'm a trial attorney by trade.

    17. SB

      What does that mean?

    18. JF

      That means I help clients with legal needs. I'm board certified in personal injury, so when people get hurt. I have trials. So, that means there are other attorneys that don't ever go to a courtroom, I go into

  2. 2:43 – 9:27

    These Communication Skills Will Change Your Life and Career Trajectory

    1. JF

      a courtroom.

    2. SB

      And you stand before a judge and a jury?

    3. JF

      A bailiff, yeah. You have a judge, you have a jury, you have a court reporter, a bailiff, you have opposing attorneys. There are people in the room.

    4. SB

      And you try and convince those people of your point of view to get a particular outcome?

    5. JF

      I advocate my client's facts in order to get the result that they want.

    6. SB

      So why did you think it was important to write a book about conversation, talking, getting what you want from the conversations we have with people we care about?

    7. JF

      Because I have seen time and time again that when I am training a client, is what I call it, I'm preparing them for cross-examination, for deposition, they really don't know how to engage in conflict. And so, I can't think of any other profession that is more entrenched in conflict, maybe outside of a- a boxer or some, you know, UFC something, that deals with actual conflict and sits there and listens to it all than in the legal world, and a trial attorney. And so, yeah, it's my job to advocate, based on my client's facts, to- to get them the result that they want. The reason why I wrote that book and how that book applies is, I took a lot of the lessons that I teach every one of my clients and put them in that book, because I'm sitting there preparing them for cross-examination and realizing, "Oh, wait, they are deathly afraid of the conflict that they're in." 'Cause most of the time, it's the most emotional, stressful, overwhelmed, they are ever in their life. They've- they're in a place they've never been, they don't know what it's like, they've only seen it on TV. And so it's my job to kind of take their hand and say, "This is how we're gonna- this is how we're gonna do it."

    8. SB

      And how does that apply to the average person in their life?

    9. JF

      People think that the goal of any argument or any conversation is to win. And same for a trial. They say you wanna win a trial. I've seen it so many times where I've gotten the result that they want and I've- and realized they still have the problem. They still wanted the apology. Uh, it all would've been resolved, there'd be no case, if somebody had just said, "I'm sorry." Yeah, and so you find that, for the everyday person, it's my job now, and- and passion, to be able to help them get into conflict and say, "I feel controlled in this. I feel confident in this. Now I know exactly where I'm going in this, because I've been there before." And it is not a skill that comes naturally, it is a skill that is learned.

    10. SB

      And what do you think is the- the sort of variance in outcome? How would my life change if I became an absolute master in this? You know, if- if I started from zero in this regard, and then I became a master in dealing with conflict, and dealing with difficult people, and dealing with people that gaslight me, and dealing with narcissists, and all these kinds of things, why would my life be different? And- and in what domains?

    11. JF

      It's quite a lot.

    12. SB

      Yeah.

    13. JF

      First would be you would be equipped for, outside of necessary expertise, anywhere you wanted to be in life. People feel like communication is zero cost. It costs you something. If I'm not speaking up in that relationship, it costs my own sense of worth. If I don't say what needs to be said at work, well, I might've lost that promotion. I- I- everything- the bill always comes due. If you can think of every time you didn't say the thing...... as, like, a receipt at a restaurant. Every time it's, it's a bill of what I am not putting into my life because I chose to either say something or not say something at the right time. And when you realize that if I can speak with confidence, well, that's me gaining a little bit more. If, if I can say things with control, that's me gaining just a little bit more. A second benefit of it is that you realize being right is overrated. You c- if you tell me, "The sky is purple," knock yourself out, Steven. It's, it doesn't have to touch anything with me o- on, on who I am or any of my opinions. We're, we're opinion-making machines, I feel like. That's all on social media. It's, just be set up to give your opinion on things that most of the time will rarely ever touch you. And if you can have the peace of mind of knowing I don't need to agree with you to understand you. If you have an opinion, I don't have to give one back. If you say something, I can choose not to say anything at all. And for a lot of people, that kind of blows their mind of, "You mean I don't have to respond?" No, you don't have to res- say anything. If somebody's talking really fast, you can talk really slow. They forget that you have full autonomy in it, and when you realize that it's you who's taking the wheel, you take the wheel of your life.

    14. SB

      But what about justice, Jefferson?

    15. JF

      Yeah.

    16. SB

      Do you know justice? Like, this person has wronged me. They've said something wrong. They've... I don't know, they've tweeted at me something which is incorrect. I need to correct the record. Justice. I think we all have a sort of an i- an innate sense of justice. We want things to be fair and right.

    17. JF

      Yes. Justice is an inherent value that is high priority for a lot of people, for good reason. You might say, "Well, they've, they've wronged me. This isn't right." That's all well and good. The question is gonna be, how long do you wanna carry it? How long do you wanna carry that feeling? Because I can either choose to let it go. I can choose to say the thing. It's, it's not at all my position that you should be stepping on eggshells and not say the thing and, and be a wallflower. No, no, it's the opposite. I'm saying you, you say what you need to say in a way that is controlled, in a way that is signaling, "I don't... I'm saying this because it needs to be said, but not because I have to say it." There's a lot of people who feel like, well, something needs to be said. But am I the... M- maybe you're not the one to say it. Maybe you, you, you're the one that needs to... Maybe it needs, doesn't need to be said right now, because if they're not willing to listen, well, then what good does it ever do? What I like to say is, you know, for you to learn how to stand up for yourself, you first have to learn who's worth getting out of your chair for. Uh, I'm not gonna be making big moves for something that is not at all worth my, my time. So yeah, justice is absolutely worth it, but when you go, "I'm the one that has to be carrying this," a lot of the times people do things to you and it's nothing to them, but yet it's everything to you, and now you're just... You're walking around for 20 years with a comment that you could have said something way, long ago and decided to drop it. But you, you chose to, to carry it, and now you're the only one that has the, the weight

  3. 9:27 – 12:01

    How to Have Control Over Conversations

    1. JF

      of that.

    2. SB

      If I'm dealing with someone who's in a position of power, someone who's a, I don't know, a senior to me at my company, or even someone who in my social group is a bit more higher up in the sort of social pecking order-

    3. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    4. SB

      ... and they're continually putting me down or being difficult, or even a partner that I'm romantically involved in, what are the hallmarks of someone who has control o- over their communication and what are the hallmarks of someone that doesn't? Like, what is it that makes... 'Cause when you speak, it's very... It feels very composed and controlled.

    5. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    6. SB

      What are you intentionally doing to achieve that effect?

    7. JF

      I'm wanting you to match my rhythm. I'm wanting you to come to my frequency. People get it wrong when they go big time to an 11, big emotional reaction. If I have a big emotional outburst, am I signaling that I'm somebody who's trustworthy, reliable and confident? Or am I signaling that I am out of my depth, I don't know what I want, and I am not to be believed, right? Because it's... When you have an emotional outburst, everybody thinks this is... You're just being emotional, and they don't... All of a sudden you're not credited for the truth of what you're saying. So sometimes emotions can get in the way of what needs to be said because of how you're delivering it. So when I say I'm gonna talk to you in a way that's gonna sound more controlled, it's, I'm slowing down my words. I'm lowering my volume. Why? Because I want to pull you down here, and if I can pull you down here, well, then we can talk a- about a lot harder things rather than feeling like I have to, to rush. So if you wanna talk to somebody in your relationship or somebody that's kind of higher up on the pecking order, so to speak, when you can show them that change doesn't bother you, when you can show them that you don't have to rush through this situation, people feel that you are giving them a sense of comfort. In other words, in conversation, everybody is looking for an anchor. When you go to a meeting, we listen to the person who's the anchor. They're usually the person who says a lot less, the person who's observing and listening rather than always giving their opinion about what you should be doing. Those are the people you don't listen to. As soon as you... As, if you've ever heard somebody say, "You know what I think you should do?" does it ever make you wanna do what they said?

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. JF

      No. It's because they, they've made it their idea, and now they're telling you what to do. If I were to say to you, "You can't do that," what's the first thing you think of? Yes, I can.

    10. SB

      (laughs)

    11. JF

      You know? It's, it's the same kind of concept where it's me lowering to be the anchor in the conversation.

  4. 12:01 – 15:29

    The Psychology Behind Feeling Comfortable in Any Conversation

    1. JF

    2. SB

      And when you're in a case, eh, in front of a judge, is, is there anything else that you're intentionally thinking about with, I don't know, your body language or the eye contact or any of these other things that you've learned over time are really important to get your message heard?

    3. JF

      I am speaking like I've been there before.

    4. SB

      Explain that to me.

    5. JF

      Walk into a room like you've been there before, as if everybody else is just visiting. So what I do before every trial is I will go in there before the jury comes in, the judge comes in, everybody comes in, and I say to myself, "This is my living room and everybody else is just visiting." And so I will touch the chairs. I will put my hands on the banisters. I will walk around. I will feel that space and, and feel it in a way of saying, "I have been here before." And when I can exude that kind of confidence to every juror that watches, all of a sudden it calms them down. They go, "Who can I rely on here? Who's more trustworthy? Who's more credible?" Because that's what it is. When you're, when you're persuading, when you are advocating your case, it's who... Ultimately, it comes down to who's more credible. And so when I can not get emotionally flustered, like I've seen it so many times where a judge rules against me and I act as though that's exactly what I wanted. You know, I am, I'm acting as though, "Thank you, Judge." And the jur- the jury's never gonna know really any different. But I've seen on other attorneys where the judge rules against them and they go (sighs) or they roll their eyes or they act frustrated, and what does the juror think? "Oh, they must not have wanted me to hear this information. Oh, this must have been bad for their case." So if you are always reacting to situations in which you have to be emotional with, in a sense that you're not paying attention to who's watching you.

    6. SB

      Okay, on that point.

    7. JF

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    8. SB

      So when you say rules against you, you mean-

    9. JF

      Yeah.

    10. SB

      ... during the trial-

    11. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    12. SB

      ... there's something you request.

    13. JF

      Exactly.

    14. SB

      The judge might say no, and you say-

    15. JF

      Yes.

    16. SB

      ... "Thank you, Judge."

    17. JF

      Yeah.

    18. SB

      You act as if you're not defeated.

    19. JF

      You act as though that's exactly what you expected, right? It's, it's the whole idea of that's not gonna shake, shake me. So a lot of the times you'll see in real court, not TV, uh, the judge will say, "Counsel, can you approach?" And both attorneys come up and they play some kind of s- noise cancellation to where only the, the attorneys can hear the judge and the judge is making a decision at that time that we don't wanna hear it to let the jury know. Why? Because it's information that might sway the case in some way and not be as objective. And you have to pay attention to who's... how the attorneys are walking away after that meeting's done. If somebody looks defeated, it just signals, oh, this is information that they must not want, or they're objecting. I've seen so many cases where there's one attorney who objects to everything. It's my rule of I really wanna have one objection the whole trial, because to the jury, an objection is me keeping evidence out. So if you always object, always object, always object, you're just signaling there's information I don't want you to hear. But if I have the confidence of knowing there's really one objection I know that's gonna be material to my case, way they know I've been there before. This is not something that's gonna be making or breaking my case. It's- it's all of credibility. If they don't trust me, they're not gonna trust my client or my client's

  5. 15:29 – 20:25

    How Your Body Language Can Influence Others’ Opinions

    1. JF

      case.

    2. SB

      I think also it illuminates to me how much of communication is non-verbal. Because-

    3. JF

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      ... in that example you were just talking about how they're watching your body language and how you've received something.

    5. JF

      Right.

    6. SB

      And, uh, you know, if you were defensive, you know, with all those objections, or if you were defeated in the judge's ruling-

    7. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    8. SB

      ... that would work against you even though it's really nothing was said, like nothing significant was said.

    9. JF

      Yeah. It's- it's a balance of knowing, am I going to choose to react because of personal ego if I didn't get my way, or am I having the better mindset of I'm advocating on behalf of my client? Like, I- I've been... Let's say you're a witness and you're opposed to me and I'm asking you a question, and I think you said something that's contrary- contrary to the evidence that I have right here. Rather than me getting messed up saying, "Are you- are you sure about that, Mr. Bartel? Let me go... You know, I have this piece of paper here," and I get really worked up, versus me putting... you said something and I put my hand on the- the paper and I said, "You sure?" Like all of a sudden it's a moment of... it kind of piques their interest of like, "What's happening? Oh, this attorney knows. This attorney is somebody who's confident and has this, what I call in-the-pocket presence." I'm not trying to be too forward, I'm not trying to be too back, I'm just in the pocket like a- a jazz band. Like e- everybody is on, everybody's on beat. And so I'm not, I'm not rushing. I'm not slowing down. I'm just right in the pocket.

    10. SB

      In the pocket. Is that what people call aura?

    11. JF

      Swagger, maybe some people call it? Yeah, aura. Uh, you- you could have it for anything in any context. I like to say in the pocket, 'cause it just reminds me of... the right timing is my timing, and that is, I'm- I'm gonna match how I need to be of what's most authentic, what's most genuine to me. If you were to ask me to read something really fast, it wouldn't sound that great, because that's not... that's not my personality. And so if I know that I am acting and speaking in accordance with the values that I hold and I'm saying, "Everybody here is just... is just visiting. This is... I've been here before. Let me... Y'all don't know where to go? Let me show you." And I- I have that kind of mentality, people will listen to you forever. They'll- they'll find that attractive of saying, "How does this person know where they're going? I can- I can follow them." It's just, it's natural leadership to speak in a way that says, "I know where I've... I'm going. I've been here before."

    12. SB

      I think that's probably good advice for people who, um, have important meetings or are going on dates-

    13. JF

      Yeah.

    14. SB

      ... to maybe get there ahead of time and familiarize yourself with the location.

    15. JF

      Yes.

    16. SB

      Just so you, you know, you don't have the added anxiety of like stumbling through the physical environment-

    17. JF

      Right.

    18. SB

      ... like looking for the thing or f- trying to find the toilet or-

    19. JF

      Exactly.

    20. SB

      ... I don't know, trying to figure out how to make the PowerPoint presentation airdrop onto the screen and all those kinds of things-

    21. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    22. SB

      ... which we've all seen before.

    23. JF

      Yeah. I always, anytime I go to speak, um... I, I spoke this past week, uh, in Santa Barbara. I went ahead of time, before my speaking time, to, to go, I wanna see what the room looks like. I wanna see w- h- how can I touch and say hi to the people that are working AV? How can I meet them? How can I... If you really wanna b- be better as a professional speaker, talk to people in the crowd before you speak.

    24. SB

      Hmm.

    25. JF

      Get to know people's names. It's gonna naturally lower you. Y- you get to know their names. Ask them why they're here. Say, "I'm so thankful that you're here. I'm really looking forward to the message and getting to talk to you today." When you, when you can go in and touch people, it's a different sense than if I'm going into a room totally cold, 'cause you don't really have the vibe. You don't really know how that is. So yeah, going to a restaurant ahead of time, that's great. Not bringing your phone, even better. You know? Getting able to be a sense of knowing, uh, I- I've been here before, I wanna welcome you to, to my space.

    26. SB

      When we talk about, um, people that have aura, you must have met a lot of people in your career and your life generally that you felt had a sense of aura.

    27. JF

      Yes.

    28. SB

      What was it about them that gave them that aura? What is it?

    29. JF

      It's a frequency of peace for me. I think of people, and you think of people, in your life who you have felt most comfortable with, the person you feel like, "I, I can just be myself. I can finally let everything down." And for me, it was my, my grandparents' house. As soon as I walk in, it's a different feeling of time kind of stands still. They wanna know about me. They wanna know how am I doing. They... It's, it's that feeling. I could talk about people who seem like they have aura, and they just have a, a glow about them. It's usually of they're not trying to prove anything to anybody. They just naturally exude that kind of charisma because of the s- the security of knowing who they are and what they can

  6. 20:25 – 22:28

    The Traits of Confident People

    1. JF

      do.

    2. SB

      And I guess, what, what's the opposite of that then? Sometimes it's easier to understand something by understanding the opposite. What would that look like?

    3. JF

      I would say that authentic people, authentic aura, as you said, doesn't come from people securing themselves to you. That's for insecure people. The people who are authentic know that I am good exactly where I'm at. "Oh, you wanna rush?" "I'm, I'm in really no rush." I'm... What happens today happens today. Is it really due today, or it could've been done tomorrow if I, I had to? If it's a slower pace, I, I find that there is so much kind of what they call cowboy wisdom on these kind of things, where... And I'm from Texas in the South, so it's, it's kind of this knowing that the right time will come when that time is right, and not having to push that. So if you wanna look at the opposite, it's the, it's... The opposite of aura is insecure. It's name-dropping. It's having to be friends immediately. It's having to prove to you how much money I have or what... It's everything else, being everything to everybody else except myself.

    4. SB

      Hmm.

    5. JF

      Like, people who have a sense of style, their own sense of style, naturally have an aura. Why? Because they don't care what in the world anybody else is wearing. "This is what I like." My daughter, all right, she's six. We tried setting out clothes. Forget it. She, she can come down in a leopard print tutu and her sunglasses and whatever she wants, and you know what? She thinks she is the flyest thing in the world. I mean, that's... It... I never wanna take that out of her. The people who have a sense of fashion, a sense of who I am... And it, they, they didn't have to look cool to anybody, social standard, but it's do they really care what anybody else thinks? Usually, people with aura do not.

    6. SB

      Hmm. And

  7. 22:28 – 24:25

    Dealing With Difficult Conversations and Gaslighters

    1. SB

      sometimes when you come up against... I mean, w- we were talking before we started recording about since the, this book's publication, what have been people saying to you, and what have the chapters, um... What are the chapters that have stood out the most to people? And you mentioned that it tends to be things around dealing with difficult conversations-

    2. JF

      Yes.

    3. SB

      ... dealing with difficult people.

    4. JF

      Right.

    5. SB

      And one of the phrases that's been arguably overused a lot in society is this phrase gaslighting.

    6. JF

      Yeah.

    7. SB

      And the definition of gaslighting that I managed to pull was gaslighting is psychological manipulation where one person purposefully lies or manipulates the other to make them doubt their own reality, memory, or sanity.

    8. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    9. SB

      Do people talk to you about gaslighting a lot-

    10. JF

      Yes.

    11. SB

      ... now that you've written this book?

    12. JF

      Yes.

    13. SB

      And what do you think gaslighting is? It, it's one of those things that's been used so often that we almost have to, like, pause for a second just to define it again.

    14. JF

      Yes. Well, let me put it this way. The difference between gaslighting and lying. Lying is a surface level of, hmm, I could tell you instead of having a silver cup, this is a red cup. Well, that would be a lie. Gaslighting is I'm trying to alter your reality into mine. I'm, I'm trying to make you question how other people perceive you, including myself, how you perceive yourself. If anybody's ever questioned, "Am I crazy? Am I the crazy one? Uh, is it, is it me? Is it, is it everybody?" Most likely, you're probably being gaslit. And here's the truth. I have been the gaslighter. Everybody has been the gaslighter, whether they intentionally know it or not, because it's all that feeling of preservation, of defensiveness, of "I don't want people to know the truth of, of what's happening in my life, so I'm going to mislead." In gaslighting, the intent is to alter your reality, to make you question what is real and what is not.

  8. 24:25 – 30:47

    The Words Gaslighters Use Against You

    1. SB

      So I might do something wrong, and then I might come home and know that I've done something wrong, and intentionally try and sell my partner a version of reality that makes them fundamentally question what they know-

    2. JF

      Yes.

    3. SB

      ... to try and spare me the critique or to control them?

    4. JF

      Yes. To protect yourself. It's, it's, it's self-preservation. Say, let's say you and your partner had come home from a, a dinner, all right? And you're just in a very critical mood, and maybe you're trying to, to distract from something else that's going on in your life, and you're being critical of a story that she shared at dinner. And you're like, "W- d- why did you... Why would you ever say that?" And she goes, "Ev- ev- everything was fine." You're like, "Fine? No, uh, no. It was not. Did you not see how they reacted?" "No, no, no, no. Y- l- listen. I know you don't wanna hear this, but everybody feels that, you know, you're a little bit much, you know? And I, and I'm, I'm the one that needs to tell you this." You see how you're, all of a sudden, are starting to alter how she feels in that moment? And I've seen the, the other side of that, and it is, it is not at all something that you can come back from without serious relationship work to be able to find a way to say, "Okay, what's... How are we really walking in truth?" 'Cause you get so far away from radical honesty in conversation. So gaslighting is, is, is not something to be taken lightly, but I will say, people often apply it to the wrong thing. They'll use it as a se- sense of saying, "You're saying something I don't like, so you're gaslighting me." You know? We're in an argument, and you're pointing out something that hurt your feelings. "Oh, that's gaslighting," you know? And they, and they, they, (laughs) they use it as an excuse.

    5. SB

      It's almost a form of gaslighting. (laughs)

    6. JF

      Exactly. That's exactly right, and it... In a weird way, it can reverse that way. But imagine me saying something hurtful to you, and you go, "That really hurt my feelings." I go, "Oh, that's just my boundary. I just have a boundary about everything," or, "This is... You're just gaslighting me." You know, I've never met somebody who talked about their ex without saying, "My narcissistic ex." You know? "I finally just got out of a narcissistic relationship." It's never us, right? It's always the other, it's always the other person. And so there's these words that we can kind of pepper and salt into sentences that are also still another form, if we look at it, a form of self-preservation. "Look at all their bad, and don't look at mine."

    7. SB

      Why is it important that we don't gaslight others? And I, I ask this question because everybody listening now is probably gonna want the, the answer to the question, which is, "What, what do I do about a gaslighter?"

    8. JF

      Yeah.

    9. SB

      But again, this is avoiding the responsibility that we a- all have a p- like, a t- tendency or, at some point in our life, have gaslighted somebody else.

    10. JF

      Yes.

    11. SB

      And, you know, I don't think my audience is just g- the gaslighted.

    12. JF

      (laughs) Yeah. Exactly.

    13. SB

      Do you know? (laughs) Like statistically, clearly, you're, you're also all the gaslighters.

    14. JF

      Right.

    15. SB

      So h- how do, um... Why is it important that we don't gaslight other people, and is there a way for us to avoid, you know, getting into a situation where our back's against the wall and we end up gaslighting someone?

    16. JF

      It's important not to gaslight somebody because every time you do, you're removing yourself further and further from the truth, the truth of how you feel, the truth of your relationship. You are withholding reality from that other person, rather than having radical, radical honesty about what's, what's happening. So it, it degrades the relationship. It degrades another person's self-worth. In, in many ways, gaslighting steals their reality. It's not something you can give back without a lot of work. It, it's, it's taking, in some sense. Now, it can be absolutely intentional, and it can also be unintentional as a form of self-preservation, and if you feel like you are being gaslit, the secret to knowing is slowing down the conversation. If I am staying still in the conversation, meaning you could say something to me that's a form of gaslighting, making me question. "Did I... Oh my goodness, did I really say that? Did I really hurt their feelings? Oh, I... Did I..." And get into my head, and I start kinda jumping around and trying to change what I did. But if I were to say, "Steven, I remember that differently," and that's where I stop, then you can try other things, and I'm gonna repeat, "Yeah, I remember that differently." Uh, y- it's standing in the truth of what you know rather than being concerned and misled by giving someone the reins and the leash to drag you around.

    17. SB

      And if I am... If I think about... I think it's thinking about all the times where I've, I think I might have gas- gaslit someone, you know, in relationships, back's against the wall, um, and you're having an argument with someone or... It's, it's quite difficult in my head to know the difference between the word, like, just te- saying something that isn't necessarily true or is that... is your perception of things-

    18. JF

      Yeah.

    19. SB

      ... versus, like, gaslighting. Is the, is the difference, in your mind, intention? Like is... if I s- if I give my version of reality-

    20. JF

      Yeah.

    21. SB

      "Uh, we were at that party. You said this thing. I saw the person roll their eyes, and then they walked away. I think they're really offended. I think you offended them."

    22. JF

      Right.

    23. SB

      What's the difference between that and me gaslighting someone?

    24. JF

      Of... Between lying and gaslighting, or it's-

    25. SB

      Yeah. Like, I'm trying to understand in that-

    26. JF

      Yeah.

    27. SB

      ... in that s- context you gave about going to a party-

    28. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    29. SB

      ... someone said something, and then they walk off. What's the difference between if that's w- how you saw reality and you're communicating it versus gaslighting someone?

    30. JF

      It... To the intention.

  9. 30:47 – 39:06

    The Attachment Style Most at Risk of Being Gaslighted

    1. JF

      truth.

    2. SB

      Is there a certain type of person that's more susceptible to being gaslit or to being victimized in any way with conversation, in your view?

    3. JF

      Anxious attachment. The ones that are... They... People who can't regulate by themselves, they have to co-regulate, meaning... M- most of the time, men are... were good self-regulators. "Just give me some time by myself. Give me an evening, give me an hour, let me walk outside. I'll... And I'll regulate myself." M- most of the time, it's been my experience, women are not like that. They co-regulate, most of them. They, they need you to also make them feel good. They can't be good if you're not good. We're not good... I'm not good if, if you're not okay. So it's, it's that whole, I'm not okay if you're not okay. And so, in many ways, they need you to be able to calm down themselves, and they, they don't self-regulate as well. And so, the people who are mo- most susceptible to gaslighting are ones who need co-regulation, people who are anxious, anxious attachment, meaning they, they need, uh, "Are you okay? Are you good? Do you need anything? Are, are you sure you're not okay?" And... Versus the people who are more avoidant. And three, the, the people who are s- are typically more insecure.

    4. SB

      So do you think women get gaslit more than men?

    5. JF

      Yes.

    6. SB

      But women still gaslight women, right?

    7. JF

      Of course.

    8. SB

      But just men are more-

    9. JF

      When, when you're talking relationships, when you're talking relationships, that's my personal opinion, is because from my feedback, from the people that have read my book and the people who give me feedback on my book, yeah, it's majority, vast majority are, are women. I'm not saying that's some empirical study on it, but what I will say is, women are just as capable of gaslighting, and ga- women can certainly gaslight women. And it... You... It's... I, I am saying this with the mindset of, everybody gaslights, whether they know it or not, and they have in the past, and most likely they can think of a time in the past where they did without knowing it. But it is... That would be my opinion, that most of the time men are the ones that do it to women.

    10. SB

      I was reading some research here that says multiple studies on emotional abuse in heterosexual relationships show women report higher rates of gaslighting and coercive control than men. Men do report gaslighting too, but less frequently and usually in different forms. Um, and it... As it relates to workplace data, surveys from management and organizational psychology show women are more likely to have their competence questioned, their memory doubted, or their experience dismissed. Women in male-dominated fields report the highest rates of gaslighting, and women of color report even higher rates of being told their perception is wrong or misinterpret... or that they're misinterpreting things.

    11. JF

      Sounds like that tracks.

    12. SB

      And also in medical settings, women are less likely to be, to be believed about their symptoms. Women's pain is underestimated. Women get later diagnoses for multiple conditions like heart disease and autoimmune disorders, ADHD, and autism. And the list goes on and on and on.

    13. JF

      If I had to say who does more, you know, I'm not trying to put some kind of, like, headline of, "Men do it more than women." In my experience, it tends, tends to be the guy. And, you know, what does that, that information show me? It shows me that, that sounds about right. I do think, from the people that follow my content, listen to my content, because I stay very connected to my community of... So many women say, "I feel like I'm in this workplace and they are doubting my competence. They're doubting my ability to make decisions. I'm not being believed. I'm putting... I'm, I'm being put down. I'm..." Whether... It's not even their experience, it's just because of their gender. And those are real, those are real questions. Does that mean that that's gaslighting? Probably not all the time. But for me to say, "Ah, that's, that's a dumb complaint. Ah, you know, that's just complaining." In many ways, when you start denying that reality, then you have the same problem.

    14. SB

      Do you know? I am... I've, I've hired thousands of people over the last decade, and I have to say, sometimes it's h- it's difficult to understand the plight of someone else when you haven't lived their experience, like you haven't been a woman or whatever.

    15. JF

      Yeah. It's impossible.

    16. SB

      So it's like... It's like very difficult, so you kind of-

    17. JF

      Yeah.

    18. SB

      ... just have to take them for their word sometimes if you've not lived it yourself.

    19. JF

      Right.

    20. SB

      Or you can look at data or whatever else. And I do have to say that I have experienced male executives who were extremely dismissive of their female peers in a way that was 100% inconsistent as it relates to genders.

    21. JF

      Mm.

    22. SB

      What I mean by that is, I can think of several male executives over the years who I observed dismissing or diminishing or not giving the woman in the room the same credit, really for no other reason than she was a woman. And so it's a very real thing, and it's not every man, I have to say this.

    23. JF

      Right.

    24. SB

      But there is a certain particular type of person who for some reason, uh, in my experience, would see a woman in the... in the workplace or in the high sort of upper echelons of the professional c- um, uh, environment, as being less than them just because of her gender. So when I hear, you know, what you're saying about women are predominantly com- you know, coming to you talking about these issues of gaslighting, it does kind of track with what I've seen.

    25. JF

      I'll tell you this. I've never had a man come to me in all this time that I've been... from my book to my content, this number of years, ever say, "I think I'm being gaslit." It is... It has always been the woman.

    26. SB

      Never?

    27. JF

      Never.

    28. SB

      What about the conversation around, like, n- dealing with narcissists? 'Cause this feels like it's one, kind of one and the same. The words are used in the same sort of vernacular, but-

    29. JF

      Yeah.

    30. SB

      ... do you have men coming to you saying that, "I think my partner's a narcissist"?

  10. 39:06 – 42:42

    This Is What Manipulators and Narcissists Do

    1. JF

    2. SB

      When you think of, like, the hallmarks of, of r- of a really, really one of these types of people, what are the way, the characteristics that I could, should be looking out for if I'm dealing with one such person who is, is gonna try and manipulate me, is gonna try and gaslight me? What, what do they do?

    3. JF

      They can never be happy for anybody but themselves. They can't be happy for you, and they can't be happy for other people. These are the types that, if you were to say, "Hey, did you see that Stephen just got this award? Isn't that so great? He was just nominated for whatever." And they go, "I mean, that's... I guess that's fine. You know, I... when I did this..." and they start talking about themselves. They can never be happy for somebody else. They can't be happy for you. It's... They have to find some way to turn the conversation of why the world is so hard and so pitiful for them, that the world was against them and they couldn't get it, but they were just as deserving. "I mean, I guess that's fine. I mean, you know, I do this, but nobody, nobody listens. Nobody really cares." And they find that they have a very victim mentality. So two is a victim mentality. Everything happens to them in some way. And three, they can't feel for other people. They don't do emotion. It's, it's always about the perception of what others would think. They're very, very sensitive to how others might portray them. So they're gonna give you a different view than they give other people, and so the couple might be terrible. But for a narcissist, they're gonna put on a face that the relationship is perfect to everybody else, and everybody goes, "Ah, you, you must be so blessed to be married to that person." And you're going, "Are you kidding me? They're, they're fooling everybody." And it's a very helpless position.

    4. SB

      Have you ever had a narcissist try and prey on you?

    5. JF

      Yeah. (laughs) Yeah. Yeah. I'm in the legal field, man. Expert witnesses have opinions to them that are unquestionable. You can't... This is their opinion, and nobody else could ever argue with it, when I have another expert who says just the opposite. So a lot of the times, they are very condescending. You know, that's fine, and they have their opinion, and this is all there is, and how dumb of you to ever question me. And usually, what gives it away is if I feel like this is somebody that, okay, they're... they can't be reasonable, they're never gonna give an inch on what's reasonable, I will ask this. I'll say... And this is typically in a deposition. I'll say, "And you think the jury's gonna like that? And y- or you think other people are gonna agree with you?" And all of a sudden, they kind of change in an instant to be able to match what the jury is going to think. So if I were to say, "And you think, and you think that's okay, and you think others are gonna find that okay, and you think that the jury, when they hear this, they're, they're all going to agree with this very hard-line opinion?" I've seen it every time where they... that's... It's only when I reference other people, the presentation of themselves to other people, that they kind of put on a, a show.

    6. SB

      Why?

    7. JF

      Because they know that the perception of the crowd is everything. They need everybody to like them, to fawn over them. They, they want their idea to, to be the best. And so they will manipulate the situation to be the chameleon, to, to make sure that everybody loves them, at least in, in their mind. It's not a, it's not a reasonable thought. And so they will typically change their opinion to sound more palatable, even though they could have admitted to that, you know, two hours into the deposition.

  11. 42:42 – 49:02

    How to Stop a Narcissist

    1. JF

    2. SB

      Do they tend to talk more or less than the average person in the room?

    3. JF

      Much more.

    4. SB

      Hmm. Is there a thin line between just being insecure and being a narcissist? Because, uh, you know, one, one of the things I was thinking about is, you said earlier that they tend to bring everything back to themselves, and I was thinking about all the people that I know that if we were having a conversation about your book doing really, really well, the first response to that would be their mention of their own book. Like, they would immediately bring it straight back to something about them, and I was wondering, some of those people I just have in the category of just being a little bit insecure, and that they just, you know, they're in a search for validation. So I'm wondering what, where you think the line might be between sort of narcissistic behavior and just, like, extremely insecure. Maybe there's not a line. Maybe extreme insecurity is narcissism.

    5. JF

      Both can be true. You know, I'd, I'd say that not all insecure people are narcissists, but all narcissists are insecure.

    6. SB

      Hmm.

    7. JF

      Um, I would, I would say that if I had to give some kind of line, it would be the interest for growth. Insecure people are looking for ways to grow and to secure and attach. Narcissists, they're not looking for anybody to attach onto. They're looking for people to support them, you know, to please them. And so, it... they have no interest in growth. They... to them, they've learned all they've, have to learn. "I, I am the best. I, I cannot improve anymore." That, to me, would be the difference.

    8. SB

      When you dealt with narcissists in your own life and in the courtroom, what is the reason why they couldn't prey on you? What did you do as defense to stop their games, their typical games working on you?

    9. JF

      I don't chase their words. Often, one of the biggest things I see wrong in conversation is a narcissist will... same for a gaslighter, they'll dig a hole. All right? And then they expect you to fill it, meaning they're gonna say something to frustrate you, and you go, "No, no, that's not what happened. Don't you remember?" And, and you just start chasing it, and then they just dig another hole, and then you keep going, and you keep going, and you're exhausted 'cause all you've been doing is trying to plug holes. You're not having a real conversation. And when I can give it a very clear definition and a very clear signal of, "Noted." You know, I'm just gonna stay right there. I'm gonna see, I'm gonna put down the shovel and stay right there with them, and maybe I'll say something as neutral as, "Got it." I don't have to chase it. I don't have to say anything. And, and to me, the, the people that have those narcissistic traits, once they realize that they can have no game with you, that you're not going to play, they find somebody else. They find somebody e- If, if you've ever had somebody come to you and they're the more emotionally toxic type of person, they always have some kind of problem, and they come with you and they have this problem and you go, "I, I just... I can't right at this moment. I will." And 10 minutes later, what's happened? They don't have that issue. They've already gone to talk to somebody else.

    10. SB

      I was watching, uh, Dame Dash on The Breakfast Club. I don't know if you've seen it. (laughs) But it's really, really-

    11. JF

      I love The Breakfast Club.

    12. SB

      But it's, it's... Dame Dash is on there 'cause he, he was, um... he filed for bankruptcy and Charlamagne has sat there.

    13. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    14. SB

      And Charlamagne is... I've actually interviewed both of them, D- both Dame and Charlamagne, and Charlamagne is very relaxed, and every once in a while just tells Dame Dash that he thinks he's broke, and then Dame Dash is v- like, very, like, hot-headed and, like, trying to-

    15. JF

      (laughs) Yeah.

    16. SB

      ... prove, prove all the reasons why he's not broke and, like, really, like, you know, gassing himself. And I... it was, it was an interesting... it's an interesting video to watch, I think. It's the more recent one that came out within the last year, because it does show, in my view, how to deal with someone who has a very... has a significant ego.

    17. JF

      Yeah.

    18. SB

      Which is d- that... Charlamagne just never changes state. Like, no matter what the volume is, no matter how much emotion, no matter when he starts c- c- c- calling him some quite personal insults, Ch- Ch- Charlamagne's demeanor, his tone, his posture-

    19. JF

      Yeah.

    20. SB

      ... doesn't change.

    21. JF

      Unbothered.

    22. SB

      Unbothered, and you can see it's (laughs) super triggering. But you just can't get to this guy, like, I-

    23. JF

      Right.

    24. SB

      It looks like Dame is, like, really annoyed that he... and he tries to say more offensive things. He goes, "You're a..."

    25. JF

      Yeah, yeah.

    26. SB

      "You're this, you're that and the other." And it's funny 'cause I was watching it this morning and it... for me, it kind of tracks with a lot of the stuff you're saying about, like, just not going with them.

    27. JF

      Yeah.

    28. SB

      Just not following them w-... 'cause they, they want you to go somewhere and th- there's a certain conflict they wanna get in with you.

    29. JF

      Yeah.

    30. SB

      And if you just kind of refuse and just stay anchored to whatever your, your point of view is, it's, it's funny to watch.

  12. 49:02 – 51:09

    Your Reactions Reveal So Much About You

    1. JF

    2. SB

      Wouldn't life be amazing if we could all be untriggerable?

    3. JF

      (laughs) It'd be more peaceable, that's for sure.

    4. SB

      It's interesting because, again, just reflecting on that interview I watched this morning, when Dame Dash called Charlamagne something really, really offensive, I noticed that as a viewer, I immediately look at Charlamagne to see his reaction to figure out if what Dame Dash just said was true. And do you see what I'm saying?

    5. JF

      Yes.

    6. SB

      So he, he turned to him and said, "You're a X."

    7. JF

      Right.

    8. SB

      And then Charlamagne just kind of laughed and like-

    9. JF

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    10. SB

      It just... It was like water off a duck's back. So immediately as the viewer I go, "Oh, well, that can't be true then 'cause Charlamagne doesn't seem to care."

    11. JF

      Exactly. Well, it's, it's not the lack of care, it's... it's just the opposite. It's all the more care of knowing who he is. So if I were to tell you right now, "I hate your purple shirt. It's the most ugliest purple shirt I've ever seen, Stephen. Like your shirt is so ugly in that purple." Does it affect you whatsoever?

    12. SB

      No, 'cause I'm not wearing a purple shirt for anyone to see on Apple or Spotify.

    13. JF

      That's right. (laughs)

    14. SB

      (laughs)

    15. JF

      That's a good point, right. But you see how you, you already know the characteristics of, of you.

    16. SB

      Yeah.

    17. JF

      You already know what you're wearing, and it's not just your clothes. I'm, I'm wearing my confidence, I'm wearing everything that your parents, your, your loved ones have instilled and put on you. I am, I am wearing the armor of my faith. I, I am... I have all these other things that I'm wearing. And if you wanna say my shirt's purple, that, that doesn't affect me at all, 'cause that's, that's not who I am. And so, so often people get mixed up of arguing about, "No, I don't have a purple shirt on."

    18. SB

      Hmm.

    19. JF

      When... Why would you ever argue with that? They, they... It's that quote by Abraham Lincoln that I love, if... "Never argue with a fool, because an onlooker can never know the difference." Right?

    20. SB

      Yeah.

    21. JF

      And so it's, it's knowing, no, I know exactly who I am and what I'm wearing.

  13. 51:09 – 54:47

    How to Stop Being Easily Triggered

    1. JF

    2. SB

      And this sort of speaks to the fact that your reaction determines how onlookers will interpret everything that's happening.

    3. JF

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      Like, uh, uh, you know?

    5. JF

      Oh, the worst thing you could do to somebody who insults you is laugh. I mean, what does it do? It... (laughs) I mean, it, it infuriates them, right? But when, uh... Same thing with a bully. A bully says something to you that they know is meant to hurt you, and if I were to turn around and say, "Did you say that to, to embarrass me?" I mean, what are they gonna do? They, they could say yes, they could say no. But either way, you're realizing, "I'm not gonna get any reaction." What you're showing them is, "For you to do this, it's just not gonna be fun for you. It's gonna be zero fun whatsoever for you." And so they'll find that with somebody, somebody else. It's, it's always your reaction that's going to determine how the conversation goes forward.

    6. SB

      There's a lot of people listening right now that are a long way away from that, very easily triggered-

    7. JF

      Yeah.

    8. SB

      ... seeking justice, you know, whatever it might be. For those people, is it like a muscle they have to build, or is there... what is the journey to getting to this level of sort of mastery?

    9. JF

      It's a discipline. It is... In the same way that people invest in so many other things in our life, we invest in our health, we invest in self-help books, we invest in the podcasts that we listen to, it is the same, you have to invest in your communication. We don't get taught in school. We don't... You know, I, I went to law school. People think I learned this in law school. No. Law school teaches you how to read the law, it doesn't teach you how to read people. Y- you had to... To me, if you are somebody that is in a position of expertise and to share something, it either came at great personal cost or you're making it up. Like it, it, it is something that you have learned, right? (laughs)

    10. SB

      (laughs) It's true.

    11. JF

      And so, I mean, whether it's through skill, knowledge, training, it's... I've... You wanna know how the... I know these things? 'Cause I've lived it. You know, I, I have been on the bad side, I've been on the good side, and it's... it is not... it's never something that's just gonna come to you.

    12. SB

      We are emotional creatures and we're hormonal creatures.

    13. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    14. SB

      So how do, how do you think about our emotions, our hormones, our health, our physical, cognitive state as it relates to, like, walking into the courtroom and being ready? Like how much of it... You know, 'cause if I've had zero hours sleep and I'm, I don't know, hungry and whatever else, and I'm... I've had an argument and I'm stressed about something, it's gonna be significantly harder to show up and be a great communicator and win the argument-

    15. JF

      Yeah.

    16. SB

      ... against somebody.

    17. JF

      Right.

    18. SB

      So do you think about these things?

    19. JF

      All the time. I mean, it... The emotions are, are right there connected to the words.

    20. SB

      And what do you... How do you prepare to be ready for battle?

    21. JF

      It's an emotional awareness of how I'm feeling and also how the other person is. Because if I just respond... I mean, yeah, if I respond to their emotional reaction, I'll miss it every time. Same thing in relationships. If I respond to the reaction, I'll lose that moment to actually speak to the need. So e- even in the courtroom, for me, if I know that I'm a little sleepy, I know I'm a little hungry, I'm a little grumpy, you know what? I can either try and pretend that I'm not, or I might get up from the jury and say, "Good morning, everybody. I have to admit to you, I'm a little grumpy. I didn't eat all that much this morning. Anybody else grumpy?" And then everybody starts to kinda nod. And now, hey, we all kind of relate, not to my words, but now to the feeling. And now you trust me more. I trust you more because I'm being more authentic.

  14. 54:47 – 1:00:22

    How Being Honest With People Can Help You

    1. JF

    2. SB

      And do you think people should do that in their own interpersonal relationships, which is just call out their state?

    3. JF

      Absolutely, because perfection is not relatable. Struggle is. Emotions are.If I were to come to you and say... And you say, "How are you?" And I go, "Good. Everything's good," when it is not, am I being authentic or am I being fake? But if I were to say, "Let me tell you, I've had a morning, and it's testing me in a way I was not expecting, and my mind is just not here," does that make you trust me more or trust me less?

    4. SB

      Trust you more.

    5. JF

      Every time.

    6. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JF

      So when you can share your struggles with people... I'm not talking about your deep most inner desire struggles. I'm saying, let me put it this way. Sierra and I check in with each other every morning. That's my wife. And it's only about 10 minutes after she drops the kid off, uh, kids off, and we kinda run through how we're doing. And the number one thing she asks me or tells me, goes, "You told me a lot about what you're doing. You haven't told me about how you're feeling." And that's, uh, that's the truth of the default, I think, of a lot of men and a lot of people. "I'm gonna tell you what's going on, what's on my agenda, what I'm doing, I haven't told you a lot about how I'm feeling." And we store all that stuff up 'cause it's still there. But if I can share with you what is my struggle, what's happening, not just the good, but more importantly, the, the bad. I mean, it's always gonna bring that authenticity into the play.

    8. SB

      Women and men are very different in many ways.

    9. JF

      (laughs)

    10. SB

      And, uh-

    11. JF

      Yeah.

    12. SB

      ... we're very different in many ways. Men are... I, I don't know. It feels like men just... You know, a- again, I'm s- I'm stereotyping here, so it's not all men and-

    13. JF

      Of course.

    14. SB

      ... people are different. But just speaking generally, the stereotype is that men are a l- typically a bit more emotionally composed or shall I say flat, and women have, uh, more emotional fluctuations. One could look at hormone changes throughout the month and talk about why that might be, etc., etc. I had many scientists here talk to me about hormone fluctuations and how that impacts-

    15. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    16. SB

      ... how someone feels. But what this means in our romantic relationships is sometimes we meet each other on very different wavelengths.

    17. JF

      Yeah.

    18. SB

      So my relationship, my partner's probably seen me cry once-

    19. JF

      Right.

    20. SB

      ... in seven years. Maybe twice, m- but probably once. I've probably seen her cry 500 times.

    21. JF

      (laughs)

    22. SB

      Maybe more.

    23. JF

      Yeah.

    24. SB

      So it feels, it almost feels like... I'm just gonna be completely honest 'cause I just think it's helpful, so you can fuck me up online if you wanna.

    25. JF

      (laughs)

    26. SB

      But I, I... It sometimes feels like we're d- we're a different species.

    27. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    28. SB

      Like, the way that I interact with my guy friends and the way that the sort of wavelength that m- my romantic partner, my, my, my girlfriend operates on are very, very different. So it's very easy to, like, misunderstand. And we spend a lot of time talking about how men need to be more emotional and more... I don't know, men need to change how th- how they are-

    29. JF

      Yeah.

    30. SB

      ... because it's the problem. But what about the o- like, what about the other side of that? Which is (laughs) do, do women also need to think about... Do we need to meet in the middle? (laughs) Is what I'm saying.

  15. 1:00:22 – 1:15:07

    How Our Parents’ Arguments Shaped Our Love Relationships

    1. JF

      Or my-

    2. SB

      I think this is it, the modeling we had as well is-

    3. JF

      Well, yes.

    4. SB

      ... my, my dad was either angry or completely static.

    5. JF

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      And when I say angry, he was very, very rarely angry.

    7. JF

      Right.

    8. SB

      But it... But when I saw him engage with my mom on an emotional level-

    9. JF

      Yes.

    10. SB

      ... it would be him yelling back.

    11. JF

      Right.

    12. SB

      If he wasn't yelling back, he was completely just like... He was just very calm, static-

    13. JF

      Yes.

    14. SB

      ... unemotional. There was no in between.

    15. JF

      Yeah. It, it all comes down to repair. How quickly you get to repair. That means, can I validate the feeling that she has? Validation is repa- it's not weakness, it's repair. In my world-Relationships don't fall apart because of one big failure. They fall apart because of a hundred moments where repair could have happened and it didn't, or you just chose not to. Or you could have said, "I'm sorry," but you withheld it. I could have chose to validate how you're feeling, but I said, "That's stupid." And it's, it's those, the hundreds of those little bitty moments where all of a sudden, no wonder you're, you're worlds apart, because you chose in those little bitty moments not to do repair, 'cause you said, "Ah, this is so stupid. This is so small." Yeah, it is small. All the more reason why you should repair it really quickly. And so when you can validate those concerns, even when you say she's being emotional and you're not, when you go into that static mode, when I go into that static mode, it's a choice by me to do something different, not say the thing I always say, not be dismissive, not find ways to try and convince her that she shouldn't feel this way. But if I validate, if I say things like, "I can see how you feel that way. If that's how you interpreted it, you know what? I don't blame you for feeling that way. I, I can see that. That sounds scary. That sounds frustrating." If I can choose that, it's, it's this, like, this is the key for me. And trust me, I'm talking to myself here.

    16. SB

      (laughs) Yeah.

    17. JF

      All right? 'Cause every, uh, every guy I feel like can be like, "Okay, this is right in." If I can make the hard choice in that moment to put aside my frustration, just for a moment, put aside my personal frustration and validate the feeling and say words that speak to her need, the need to feel heard, the need to feel safe, the need to feel like she's not being too much, then all of a sudden, it all shrinks. And you know what? My frustration kind of goes away. Why? Because everything's better now. We've, we've had moments of repair, and then if I still am really frustrated, then I can bring it up, "Hey, can I, can I bring up something to you that you said that's really bothering me?" And then you do it.

    18. SB

      How, a- as a man, do you know that you're not setting a bad precedence for the future? And what I mean here is-

    19. JF

      Yeah.

    20. SB

      ... if I constantly, you know, justify how she's feeling, and I, and I seek repair, and then when she's happy, I just let it go, there's, I think sometimes there's a worry as a man that if you just lay down and take everything, then you're just gonna get more stuff in the future, like you're setting a bad precedence for the future of this relationship, where, "No, sometimes, actually, no, I wasn't in the wrong," or, "Oh, no, I di- I dis- I do disagree with this."

    21. JF

      Right.

    22. SB

      And I think I've observed a lot of relationships, especially with some of my guy friends, where because they, like, never stood up for themselves- (laughs)

    23. JF

      Mm-hmm, yeah.

    24. SB

      ... they're now, like, living in a prison.

    25. JF

      Right.

    26. SB

      They, like, never s- stood up for themselves.

    27. JF

      Yes.

    28. SB

      And so th- they've kind of lost all of their autonomy and agency and control, and they... You know, even when you're listening to this, there's probably people you can think of in your life where the guy has always opted for an easy life in the short term-

    29. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    30. SB

      ... and now over the long term, he has a really hard one.

  16. 1:15:07 – 1:17:08

    Find Your Priorities and Set Your Boundaries

    1. JF

    2. SB

      I think some people's partners, they d- they're not like that. Some people are in a relationship where their partner cuts out as much of these things as they possibly can-

    3. JF

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      ... so that they can control their partner. I mean, we... I think we've all-

    5. JF

      Absolutely.

    6. SB

      ... got a friend in the group chat-

    7. JF

      Oh, yeah.

    8. SB

      ... who (laughs) -

    9. JF

      Yeah.

    10. SB

      ... has kinda, like, or seems to have lost all their freedom and their autonomy and agency since they've been in that relationship.

    11. JF

      I'd say they're on a leash.

    12. SB

      Yeah, they're on a leash. Like, they can never come to the thing-

    13. JF

      Mm-hmm. That's not okay.

    14. SB

      And it appears to be a consequence of boundaries, like not r- reinforcing your boundaries early. It appears to me to be a bit of a slippery slope, boundaries.

    15. JF

      Oh, yeah.

    16. SB

      Do you know what I mean? Like, where you, like, you kinda make a concession, and because you've made a concession, they're more likely to pursue another concession-

    17. JF

      Right.

    18. SB

      ... and then before you know it, you're behind bars-

    19. JF

      (laughs)

    20. SB

      ... alone. (laughs)

    21. JF

      Yeah, and, and frustrated and wondering how you, how you got here. I know we've spoke about boundaries in the past. To me, it, it ultimately gums- comes down to am I protecting the priority? So, if I know that my marriage is the priority, I'm gonna set boundaries that protect that. I mean, for me and my life right now, whether I'm working on a book or speaking or a podcast or whatever, it's am I setting the boundary up to be protecting my, my family and my relationship? So, you have to first define what is the priority here. So, if the priority is knowing that we want to be... you and your partner wanna be in a relationship and you make sure that Thursday is date night. Okay, that's... nothing gets scheduled on date night. There's certain things that just aren't movable. The answer's no. And when you can have those really hard nos, it makes filling the time of everything else all that much easier. But that's... It, I mean, it ultimately comes down to are you being real about it or are you being fake about it?

  17. 1:17:08 – 1:22:49

    People Pleasers

    1. JF

    2. SB

      In your view, you talk about being nice and being kind. Um, I've heard you talk about this on your podcast. What's the difference between being a nice person and a kind person? Which one should I aspire to be?

    3. JF

      Stop being nice at the expense of being real. So, nice is something that we got taught really early on. "Hey, be nice. Play nice." And if you believe forever and always that being nice serves you well, you will ultimately serve it. You will people please, you will only choose to say the nice thing, you will... Nice is very surface. If you went on a date with somebody and I was like, "How was the date?" And you said, "She was nice."

Episode duration: 2:48:30

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