Trinny Woodall: How She Went From Drug Addict To $300m Business Empire!

Trinny Woodall 0:00 I look at your skin, and I'm going to come over there-

Steven Bartlett 0:02 Oh, no. Oh, f-

Trinny Woodall 0:03 Then I go round here.

Steven Bartlett 0:05 Trinny Woodall. Beauty queen of the screen.

Trinny Woodall 0:07 Founder and CEO of Trinny London. One of the fastest growing companies in Europe. Have a great day. (instrumental music plays) I went through phases in my early 20s of not knowing who I was and turning to drugs. I went to rehab.

Steven Bartlett 0:18 I heard that you'd been kicked out the first time for playing a porn video.

Trinny Woodall 0:21 Yeah. It backfired. Rehab was a huge beginning of the change in my life, and I went into a whole new world.

Steven Bartlett 0:28 Only a 20-year career in media. Trinny took a left turn in the makeup industry.

Trinny Woodall 0:32 Here we are, $250 million later. Welcome to Trinny London.

Steven Bartlett 0:37 A lot of people have this stigma that you can't start a business at 53.

Trinny Woodall 0:41 Crap. Age is just a number. But you need energy, passion, perseverance. I sold my house, hardly earning any money, but I thought, "I'm never gonna give up." Ask yourself, how much do you want to be successful? What are you prepared to give up?

Steven Bartlett 0:54 You strike me as someone that's incredibly driven. What was the cost?

Trinny Woodall 0:56 Very big question. Probably Audley.

Steven Bartlett 1:01 You had a partner who was unwell.

Trinny Woodall 1:02 Yeah. And the thing you think will never happen, happens.

Steven Bartlett 1:06 He died by suicide.

Trinny Woodall 1:08 Yeah. Where do you get to in your brain when you are so worried about your children that you can convince yourself that the best thing is that you're not in their life anymore? Was there anything I could have done to stop it?

Steven Bartlett 1:33 I think this is fascinating. I looked at the backend of our YouTube channel, and it says that since this channel started, 69.9% of you that watch it frequently haven't yet hit the subscribe button. So, I have a favor to ask you. If you've ever watched this channel and enjoyed the content, if you're enjoying this episode right now, please can I ask a small favor? Please hit the subscribe button. It helps this channel more than I can explain, and I promise, if you do that, to return

Steven Bartlett 1:58 the favor, we will make this show better and better and better and better and better. That's a promise I'm willing to make you if you hit the subscribe button. Do we have a deal? (instrumental music plays) Trinny, you've got a very, um, distinct personality.

Trinny Woodall 2:18 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 2:19 You, you, and you know that. You're well aware of that, right?

Trinny Woodall 2:24 I know who I am.

Steven Bartlett 2:26 But your, your personality is very... You're very straightforward-

Trinny Woodall 2:31 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 2:31 ... um, and all of these sort of defining traits of your personality, and I'm wondering if that was, when that personality was formed or when it started to, to emerge.

Trinny Woodall 2:41 Things happen in your life that, that begin to, you know, fine-tune and define who you're going to be. And I went definitely through phases. You know, I went through phases in my late teens, early 20s, of, of turning to drugs just to not being happy with who I was, not, not feeling... not knowing who I was. Sometimes, people turn to drugs because they just don't know who they are and they want to... You know, they have an inner lack of confidence, and I definitely had an inner lack of confidence. And outwardly, when I talk to people and I look back at the time, they might say, "You just were this very mesmerizing person." And I just remember that internal sense of feeling so lost, so profoundly lost. And so when I got clean at 26, 27, that was a huge beginning of the change in my life. I was so relieved that my 20s were over. So relieved. Because it, you know, it was like that was the beginning of that, that, whew, wash that away.

Trinny Woodall 3:45 And that was a big moment for me to begin to work out who I was. That was the first moment probably.

Steven Bartlett 3:53 You, you, um, using drugs at 16, I presume was quite a recreational thing.

Trinny Woodall 3:56 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 3:57 I think we all dabbled-

Trinny Woodall 3:58 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 3:59 ... at, at that age. Um, when did it, when did you realize that it wasn't a recreational thing anymore and that it was an addiction?

Trinny Woodall 4:07 I think I was about 22, and I felt my life didn't have direction. And my, my family were very frustrated with me. They felt I'd changed. And like any family where they have a child who has addiction, they, they can, if they don't know, they just see change, and they think, "Why is my child changing?" You know? So, I think they saw that, and it was a relief to say, you know, "I, I, I use drugs." And I remember my dad said, "Well, now you've told me, you can stop." And I remember my brother saying, "I think it might be harder than that." So, I went to rehab, and I then left the rehab after a period of time, and-

Steven Bartlett 4:56 You left the rehab, or were you kicked out?

Trinny Woodall 4:57 I... No. No, I k- I was kicked out of the first rehab, but I then went to meetings. And there's one thing about recovery, is that when you first get in recovery you, you need to let go of your old friends who you've been with who are using, and you're about to make new friends. So that moment is... Loneliness can take you back to old habit. After about, I don't know, maybe six months, I missed my old friends, and I hadn't made enough new ones, and I saw them and then, you know, I relapsed, and then I went back to meetings, and then you're in this horrible little in-between place. When you know about recovery and you continue to use, it's not so... There's something about an ignorance of recovery. You know, there's a kind of sense that you don't know there's another way, so you don't feel guilty every time you do. And so what it brings is it brings guilt every single time. I had three really, really good friends, and we were all using one night, and we, I said-... "Let's all make a pact, we'll go to rehab tomorrow." And two of them had been, and one of them had never been, but we made this pact. Late night, you know that thing, "We're gonna do this, we're gonna conquer the world, and we're gonna go to rehab." So, then, the next morning, I woke up and I still had that feeling, which is rare. So, I called a therapist that I knew, and I said, "I need to go, but I have a window of opportunity which is so small. I need to go literally in the next two hours 'cause I am scared for myself that I'll change my mind." So, he got me s- in somewhere, and stayed there for five months. And I sold what I had to pay for it. Some very tragic thing happens in that time, and one of the people died. And then-

Steven Bartlett 6:57 One of the people that said they were gonna go to rehab with you?

Trinny Woodall 6:59 Yeah. And then, I went to a halfway house in Weston-super-Mare for seven months, where you kind of live off eight to 10 pounds a week, which pays for your fags. And I worked in an old people's home. And then I came back to London a very different person. And then, in that following year, another one of them died. And then by the end of two years, they'd all died. So, I think I always had this feeling, whatever I might do, you know? I might do many things again, but I will not take drugs again. And you do the, in recovery, you do it a day at a time. And since that day, I have never taken a drug again. And that was that bi- that's probably that biggest shift I had at that age, to really think, "Now I have this second chance. What do I actually want to do with my life?" You know? What, not what I feel other people expect me to do.

Steven Bartlett 7:58 If I was a fly on the wall in your life, at, at your, when the addiction had you the most, what would I have seen?

Trinny Woodall 8:05 You wouldn't have seen anything that I was feeling inside, 'cause that's what I was very good at. So, outwardly, you would kind of think, you know I worked in the City, I was trading commodities, I was, I held down a job, you know? You would see this person who seemed to be running around doing a lot of stuff. You would see that. Yeah. So, mine wasn't jacking up in the street, not being able to function on a daily basis. Um, but it was one where appearances were so important compared to... you know? So that matching your inside to your outside is probably my biggest journey, you know, of how can I, what I feel inside is how I share with you now.

Steven Bartlett 8:56 Mm-hmm.

Trinny Woodall 8:56 And, you know, I am 59, and that's where I've got to. I have a lot more to do. But

Trinny Woodall 9:01 I, it took me a journey to get to a place where I feel very comfortable in that feeling and in that belief.

Steven Bartlett 9:10 Matching the inside with the outside. So, the outside, I would've seen someone who was very busy and apparently, you know, professionally successful in the City, uh-

Trinny Woodall 9:18 Not feeling it, but sort of acting it, do you know that?

Steven Bartlett 9:20 Acting it. On the outside.

Trinny Woodall 9:21 I mean, my God, we know that one.

Steven Bartlett 9:22 And then maybe-

Trinny Woodall 9:22 Fake the CV, act it, you know, be kind of, big up the job that was actually smaller than it was. All of that shit.

Steven Bartlett 9:29 And then on the inside?

Trinny Woodall 9:31 Feeling, feeling, you know... I hate to say the word, 'cause I hate, I hate labels. Imposter syndrome is the worst l- can I just say it's the worst label? It's the worst label ever, because it, what it denotes is that you are an imposter, um, for how it's used for now. So, to me, imposter syndrome is more that you haven't yet learnt enough, and if you learn something, you won't feel so much of an imposter. This is what imposter syndrome is, what I'm referring to. It's that feeling where you are so different on the inside from what you project on the outside that you are an imposter inside your own body. And that, to me, is what I think imposter syndrome is.

Steven Bartlett 10:16 What's the, what's the cost of, of that?

Trinny Woodall 10:19 That at some stage, you can't keep doing it, and you ha- something has to give. And something always has to give, and, and it's whether you, it's which path you're gonna take, you know?

Steven Bartlett 10:32 'Cause there'll be a lot of people listening now that are in a job or a situation where they, they have that feeling, that niggling feeling-

Trinny Woodall 10:38 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 10:38 ... that they're in the wrong place.

Trinny Woodall 10:40 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 10:41 They might be held there by social groups, or expectation from their parents-

Trinny Woodall 10:47 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 10:47 ... or whatever it might be, but something's holding them there.

Trinny Woodall 10:49 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 10:49 Maybe fear of uncertainty.

Trinny Woodall 10:51 I would say, if somebody is listening to this and they're thinking, "Do I have little bits?" Just ask yourself, you know, "Do you love what you do?" The job you're in, if we're talking about work. "Do you love what you do? Do you like this environment of where you work? Do you feel people make a better contribution than you, you know? Is, that's what's making you feel insecure? If so, what do you feel when people have meetings that you don't know?" Go and fucking learn it. Go and learn it. Go and listen to podcasts. Go and read some books. Just learn it, because knowledge is, is powerful. And when you have knowledge and you walk in a room, you automatically think, "I have so much more to contribute."

Steven Bartlett 11:33 If, if I answer one of those, that I challenge myself and I go, "I don't like where I'm working and I don't like it-"

Trinny Woodall 11:38 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 11:38 ... and I'm, you know, a commodities trader in the City, for example, and I just d- I hate it."

Trinny Woodall 11:42 Yeah. Leave it, but have a plan. But leave it. Like, if you hate what you do... We spend 16 hours a day, between commuting or if you're in a higher position, thinking about the company, working. We spend much more of a day working than sleeping. So, you gotta love it.

Steven Bartlett 12:01 Mm-hmm.

Trinny Woodall 12:01 You've got to love it. You know, I was like, in my early 20s, I was one woman, 64 men on a trading floor. And I-... hated it, and I dressed in men's clothing, and I went to Rossetti and got the men's shoes. And I got the tailor to make me a suit. All the men would drop their trousers in the, on the trading floor, and I'd go in the ladiesroom and get, you know... I'd pretend to have a deep voice, so I was on the phone selling Anglo American Fund so my clients thought I was a man. I mean, you know, (laughs) I did all this stuff. I hated it so much, Stephen. And I would go, I would take the Tube to Tower Hill. We were at the World Trade Center in, uh, London. I'd have the Financial Times

Trinny Woodall 12:37 on the outside and the Daily Mail on the inside.

Steven Bartlett 12:39 (laughs)

Trinny Woodall 12:39 That was my full extent of who I was. And, you know, I left it.

Steven Bartlett 12:46 Were you an attention seeker more generally in life? 'Cause when I r- heard that you'd been kicked out of rehab the first time for playing a porn video-

Trinny Woodall 12:54 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 12:54 ... I thought... (laughs)

Trinny Woodall 12:56 That, that was, that was a, a w- a funny one, but not funny in the end. Um, it was a terrible rehab. I was with somebody, um, uh, to... last night in New York, and we were going to this funeral of this friend of mine who was, like, 43 years sober. And, um, I discovered I'd been to the same place with her. It... and, um, we-

Steven Bartlett 13:25 Rehab? Same rehab?

Trinny Woodall 13:25 Yeah, uh, but at different times. And she just said, you know, "It was the most fundamentally shaming place ever." You know, rehabs now are very different, but it was a very, very shaming place. And it would be closed down now. It wasn't... it didn't have a good way of dealing with things. So, in that whole scenario, there was definitely that feeling that you're, you're, you're thrown in with people you don't know, and you reveal your life. And it was a time when you would write down your life story, and then... In rehabs nowadays, 'cause I visit friends in them or whatever, you would kind of... people help you navigate why you did things in your life. But in this one, (laughs) they did the stuff where they would get 20 people to critique how bad your life had been in a room and, and judge you for it. And it was... I mean, just, like, looking back on it now, at the time, that was the only way recovery worked in rehabs in the UK. But it was just... it was kind of fucking appalling. And she reminded me last night. So when you bring up this thing of that, of that, um, porno film, and I think it was that sense of, "Let me just do something that w- people will find funny-

Steven Bartlett 14:43 (laughs)

Trinny Woodall 14:43 "... 'cause we're having such a shitty time here."

Steven Bartlett 14:45 Mm-hmm.

Trinny Woodall 14:45 And it backfired, and it was just... you know, I was chucked out.

Steven Bartlett 14:49 What I haven't been able to pinpoint is the... y- 'cause at least from the outside looking in, your life was... you know, you had a great job. You had this, um, addiction which didn't seem to interfere with your work. So, you know, when I sit here with someone like Macklemore or Russell Brand, or even... I remember s- speaking to Steve-O. The- they talk about their addictions and, you know, he was, he was on a s- I don't know, four or five-day heroin binge, and he drove a car... He said he was gonna... I think he drove a car through a house and then-

Trinny Woodall 15:14 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 15:14 ... was threatening to jump out of the window-

Trinny Woodall 15:15 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 15:16 ... when... you know, he, he ultimately ended up in rehab. But it didn't seem... I, I can't identify the, the symptoms that drove you to go, "I can't do this anymore."

Trinny Woodall 15:25 I think we have... Everyone has a different story, externally, of, "I did this and I did this," and there's a bit of, "I did even more than you." You know?

Steven Bartlett 15:38 Mm-hmm.

Trinny Woodall 15:38 There's a... uh, uh, there's this whole thing in, in... that, you know, addicts maximize their using and alcoholics minimize their drinking. All right?

Steven Bartlett 15:47 Mm-hmm.

Trinny Woodall 15:47 And that's why alcoholics can take longer to get into sobriety and, and addicts can take shorter, because also drugs can kill you quicker.

Steven Bartlett 15:56 Mm-hmm.

Trinny Woodall 15:57 Um, so there are... there's that kind of, you know... And I think also... I don't know. It's, it's, it's different. But, um, maybe I don't talk so much about the crazy things I did.

Steven Bartlett 16:10 Oh, okay.

Trinny Woodall 16:11 Yeah. 'Cause I think we all do crazy things.

Steven Bartlett 16:15 Yeah. I mean, we've-

Trinny Woodall 16:15 You know?

Steven Bartlett 16:16 ... we've all done some crazy things that I-

Trinny Woodall 16:17 We all do crazy things. And, um, but

Trinny Woodall 16:19 I, I feel that... I have a daughter who's 19.

Steven Bartlett 16:24 Sure.

Trinny Woodall 16:24 And I wouldn't talk about crazy things I did.

Steven Bartlett 16:26 Mm-hmm.

Trinny Woodall 16:27 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 16:27 Okay. So, we move on from there. And then the next sort of 10, 15 years of your life, you have this media career. How aligned were you with this chapter of your life?

Trinny Woodall 16:34 Um, so when I did TV a- and writing, I really loved that. I think what was very nice is we developed this, these women who found us a breath of fresh air. I love the fact that people would say, (sigh) "You know, I read your book and it's changed how I think about myself," or, you know. And at the time, when we look back at What Not to Wear, it's a very divisive show. At the time, it made a lot of women, and women that I meet now who watched the show at the time, tell me the impact it had on them to think about themselves differently. But I enjoyed it. I enjoyed traveling around England and making over women and having that journey. And over, you know, over a week, you saw the metamorphosis of a person you worked with. And you saw them at the beginning and at the end, and then we kept in touch with many of the women. And then you would hear about their marriages and their babies, and they're life-changing. And, and th- you knew there was a tiny contribution you'd made to that switch in them-

Steven Bartlett 17:34 Mm-hmm.

Trinny Woodall 17:34 ... turning the switch on to feel different.

Steven Bartlett 17:37 Why did it end, did the show?

Trinny Woodall 17:39 We'd gone from doing a series of the... IT- with ITV a year and writing a book a year to doing three or four shows. I took, on average, about 55 flights a year. I left London on a Sunday night, I came back on a Friday. I had a f- seven-year-old daughter. And I had a partner who wasn't always well. So, it was just at a stage

Trinny Woodall 18:03 where I thought, "I need to readjust how my personal life is, and I need to think what can I do now, because this doesn't work."

Steven Bartlett 18:12 ... I had a partner that wasn't always well. I remember reading a line in your book where you said, "99% of the things we worry about don't happen, but that 1% happen to us."

Trinny Woodall 18:20 Mm. And he said it to me. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 18:22 Is that what he said to you?

Trinny Woodall 18:23 Yeah. He would always say it. I mean, I always remind Lila, "What did Dada say?" when she's worried about stuff.

Steven Bartlett 18:31 And he said, he's the one that said that, "99% of the things we worry about don't actually happen?"

Trinny Woodall 18:34 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:36 I had a partner who was unwell. Unwell in what way?

Trinny Woodall 18:38 Addiction.

Steven Bartlett 18:40 He was addicted to-

Trinny Woodall 18:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:43 And you, you met him when you were 35, right?

Trinny Woodall 18:48 No. No, I met him when I got clean. I met him when I was 27.

Steven Bartlett 18:52 Oh, you got married when you were 35.

Trinny Woodall 18:54 Yeah. And he was in recovery.

Steven Bartlett 18:57 Oh, okay.

Trinny Woodall 18:59 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:59 So, okay, you met, met when you were younger. You, um, went through recovery. He went through recovery as well-

Trinny Woodall 19:05 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 19:05 ... but then relapsed?

Trinny Woodall 19:06 He had a motorbike accident, and he was very badly hurt, and he took painkillers.

Steven Bartlett 19:15 And got addicted to the painkillers?

Trinny Woodall 19:16 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 19:18 What is, what is, what is that like? 'Cause people think of painkillers that don't know addiction to painkillers, and they think of para- acetaminophen or something.

Trinny Woodall 19:24 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 19:25 My ex- only experience with painkillers was taking a paracetamol maybe four years ago.

Trinny Woodall 19:30 I think when you're in a relationship with somebody who has a form of addiction, there's an unpredictability and an inconsistency in how they turn up every day. And I think in any times when it's not great, you end up, to an extent, having the crumbs off the table. It's like you're so holding onto those moments when everything's good that you try and ignore what isn't working.

Steven Bartlett 20:10 And at the same time, I was thinking about, well, you got married in the year that you were starting your business, your tech company. It's a lot to deal with. If you've got a, a partner at home that you're married to that's ho- is struggling with addiction, you're starting a business.

Trinny Woodall 20:21 Yeah, but they were well at that time.

Steven Bartlett 20:23 Okay.

Trinny Woodall 20:23 Yeah, they were well at that time.

Steven Bartlett 20:25 Okay.

Trinny Woodall 20:25 They had periods definitely through our rel- who, through our marriage where they were well, really well.

Steven Bartlett 20:31 The relationship breaks down?

Trinny Woodall 20:33 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 20:33 You get divorced?

Trinny Woodall 20:34 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 20:36 You go your separate ways. You remain close?

Trinny Woodall 20:40 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 20:41 And then Johnny ultimately passes away around the time when you finish, before you start Trinny London-

Trinny Woodall 20:47 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 20:48 ... but around the time when you finish What Not To Wear, and you s- you separate from Susan.

Trinny Woodall 20:52 Yeah, I separate-

Steven Bartlett 20:53 That's when-

Trinny Woodall 20:53 ... from Susanna, and-

Steven Bartlett 20:55 When she passed.

Trinny Woodall 20:55 ... I started working on, I'd started working on Trinny London. Yeah. But I was still filming abroad. I was still doing telly shows abroad, but I was also working on the business.

Steven Bartlett 21:06 And you were close to him-

Trinny Woodall 21:07 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:07 ... still, even though you'd separated?

Trinny Woodall 21:09 Yeah. We spoke every day on the phone.

Steven Bartlett 21:12 Every day?

Trinny Woodall 21:12 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:17 He passes away when you're 50?

Trinny Woodall 21:19 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:21 How does that change things in your life?

Trinny Woodall 21:28 Um, biggest change is you become a single parent. Um, the thing you think will never happen happens. So it's a wake-up call just for life and how you see life. It took me a long time to grieve because, uh, he left a mess when he died, which I had to kind of deal with a bit, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 22:05 Financial mess?

Trinny Woodall 22:06 Just, yeah. Just a mess. And so it preoccupies you to not then actually just think about what you miss in somebody. You know, it just, you focus on what you've got to do. You go onto autopilot. You think of the kind of things you've got to deal with. And probably, oddly, I moved in March, and that was the first time I remember Lila went away, and it was the first time in 35 years I'd been on my own in a house. And I grieved for Johnny all those years later.

Steven Bartlett 23:03 D- did something tr- trigger that? Or-

Trinny Woodall 23:04 No, I think it's just you need, sometimes you need space. You need to... I know he died. There was a mess. I then starting the business. I was living in a house I couldn't afford to live in. I had to sell it for lots of reasons. One of them, you know, for that reason. And there was so much I was, so many sort of fires I was dealing with. And, and then I was, you know, trying to start the business, trying to guide Lila to, you know, be okay. So there was a lot of years of that, and then another life change of just deciding I want to live on my own. Then brought up in a way to be able to just feel some things that I hadn't really let myself feel. And I think sometimes in life, we know we're not in that part of that strong enough to feel that feeling and move forward. And we have to be in the right situation and give ourselves that right breathing space to be able to feel the fullness of that feeling without judgment, or guilt, or remorse. You know, because all the other ones are so connected to...... situations externally. And it's very difficult to get to a situation where you're not bringing all the external factors in, and you're just feeling how you feel about somebody.

Steven Bartlett 24:34 What was the fullness of that feeling in that moment?

Trinny Woodall 24:42 I think, um, (drinks) that there was nothing, there's nothing better in anyone else than the best-ness of Johnny, if that

Trinny Woodall 25:01 makes sense, and I missed it.

Steven Bartlett 25:10 The, the circumstances of his death are particularly complicated-

Trinny Woodall 25:15 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 25:16 ... because he, he didn't die by natural causes.

Trinny Woodall 25:18 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 25:19 He died by suicide.

Trinny Woodall 25:20 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 25:22 And having sat here and spoken to people who've lost a partner or an ex in such a way, um, the feelings, uh, from what I've seen are com- are much more complicated.

Trinny Woodall 25:36 I think anyone dying, who dies unexpectedly, whether from illness or anything, it's... Somebody is gone, you know? There's, that, that's the biggest fundamental of anything. The circumstances drive how differently people deal with death. So, you know, some members of his family wanted to believe there was a conspiracy theory. Some, you know, you, you, you suddenly have 101 kind of views on things and stuff that really confuses and complicates the fact that somebody has gone. You know, they've gone. Nothing is gonna bring them back. They have gone. But it leaves more questions. And then, you look at your part in something, you know? And that's every person who has had somebody commit suicide at some stage will say, "Was there anything I could've done to stop it?" You know, that's the first thing, for sure. If you love somebody, um... And the more I have learned about suicide, the more that you know that when people, when people talk about wanting to kill themselves, I'm not saying it happens less frequently to people who don't, but once somebody makes a decision that that's what they're going to do, they don't talk about it, you know? And you'd like to feel you'd pick up on it. But I think it's the hardest lesson to learn, but when you then come across people where you feel that you now pick up on those not saying things, that there's a lot of internalizing going on. And should you be reaching out and just talking, getting them to talk? Because people get themselves to a stage where they feel it's the only solution, and what's staggering is Johnny had hyper-vigilance around his children because he'd been in the Israeli Army, and he was a paramedic, and he had a really, it was a really tough, uh, situation. And he, he had from it post- traumatic stress disorder, which wasn't, um, acknowledged, you know, it wasn't, um, diagnosed until about 20 years later. But one of the things was his hyper-vigilance around his children, so he had, he was always so, you know, worried for their welfare. So you kind of have this thing of where do you get to in your brain when you are so worried about your children that you can convince yourself that the best thing for your children, who you love profoundly, is that you're not in their life anymore? (drinks) And that (drinks) is something that is so important, that we can help people who get to that situation, that they don't get to that final part of that situation. And it's understanding what to recognize, it's understanding, you know, and it's very hard to recognize. You know, I didn't recognize, (sniffs) and there were lots of (pauses) details of it which could've really upset me, you know, of things that were done wrong, just, were just like police stuff that was done... You know, lots of things which you could hold on, you can hold onto lots of things, (pauses) but you kind of have to let go. When I see people who have family who've died and they want to hold onto things, or get this thing... You know, and it's like all those things you might hold onto will prevent you to go through the process of grieving, because it will hold you in this place in time and you will just be sitting with that, you know, and you won't be able to work through. And, you know, when somebody dies, you need to work through these stages.... and acknowledge these stages, but not get stuck in something which eats you up. So, even though there were all these things that kind of could've eaten me up, I sort of knew. And I had a very good... There's a wonderful woman called Julia Samuel, and she wrote This Too Shall Pass and another book called Grief Works. I don't know if you've ever had her on your podcast. She's an incredible, um, grief counselor. And I saw her straight away. She came to my house when, when I knew, and I hadn't yet told Lila. 'Cause the first thing is you need to find the words of what to say. She, um, was a friend of my sister, and she gave me words. It's like you just feel so like this. I'm at a good place with it now, and I think that final thing was this m- the moment I had by myself when Lila went off and... for a week, and I just... I thought, okay, I'm very... I'm totally... You know, this is eight years later. But things take time.

Steven Bartlett 31:50 So interesting how the, the process of grief, that- those first sort of eight years where you kind of compartmentalize, or it's not the right time to address it yet-

Trinny Woodall 31:58 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 31:58 ... because there's other things going on. And then eight years later, how it can show up in a moment of, like, solitude and-

Trinny Woodall 32:04 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 32:04 ... in, in a moment of space and come out. It's interesting, 'cause I think there's so many of us, whether it's, uh, the grief of losing someone or the grief, grief of some other form of trauma that we have it compartmentalized, and it might be, um, impacting our lives in ways we don't, we don't understand.

Trinny Woodall 32:19 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 32:20 Y- I hear this a lot when I speak to people about, you know, their mood or, you know, they, they were a slightly different person through that period, but until they were able to kind of sit down and confront it and, and go through the process of grief, they, they didn't

Steven Bartlett 32:32 realize that they had... it had changed them in some way. Eight years later-

Trinny Woodall 32:36 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 32:37 ... you have your moment.

Trinny Woodall 32:38 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 32:40 53 years old, you start Trinny.

Trinny Woodall 32:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 32:46 Big smile on your face.

Trinny Woodall 32:47 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 32:50 You know, start- starting a, a business like that at 53, a lot of people have a, like, a stigma or a stereotype that you can't start a business in mid-life. You know, "You shouldn't be doing that at that point," or that, you know, "You won't be able to raise..." You know, all of those kind of stigmas around starting a business in mid-life.

Trinny Woodall 33:06 Crap.

Steven Bartlett 33:07 Crap, yeah.

Trinny Woodall 33:07 Total crap. I started a business at 16 called... What was my first business? Bows Unlimited when I was at school.

Steven Bartlett 33:14 Yeah.

Trinny Woodall 33:14 I sold hairbows.

Steven Bartlett 33:15 I know.

Trinny Woodall 33:16 Um, and then I started a business-

Steven Bartlett 33:17 (laughs)

Trinny Woodall 33:17 ... at 53. So it's like, there's no other way to put it, that, that age is, is a number. It is just a fucking number, and you can either mention that number endlessly, or you can look at what energy do you have at that moment in time to execute on your dream. That's all it's... That's all you need.

Steven Bartlett 33:40 Energy.

Trinny Woodall 33:41 All you need. Well, you need a lot, but, you know, you need to feel that... You need energy, passion, drive, relentlessness, perseverance, resilience. Pick yourself up and just get fucking on with it. You need all of those things. But you need the energy so that you jump out of bed in the morning and you are on it.

Steven Bartlett 34:02 Did it take time for you to cultivate that in the, in the passing-

Trinny Woodall 34:04 No.

Steven Bartlett 34:04 ... after Jo- after Johnny had passed? Was there like a... Do you know what I mean?

Trinny Woodall 34:08 Because I did, I did, uh, Ready To before, and for that I was-

Steven Bartlett 34:12 Right.

Trinny Woodall 34:12 ... you know, I did 18 hour days for two and a half years. It's like it w- You know, it's, it's in me, that. I've, I've been a grafter for quite a long time. So-

Steven Bartlett 34:20 And you'd been mulling this idea for many, many, many years.

Trinny Woodall 34:22 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:22 And then, um, and then you finally put it into action. I, I, uh... Heard you say, "I started pitching in 2014 and it took me three years to launch."

Trinny Woodall 34:30 Yeah. I'd started pitching in 2013, I think.

Steven Bartlett 34:35 And what were you pitching?

Trinny Woodall 34:36 I was pitching-

Steven Bartlett 34:37 What was the elevator pitch?

Trinny Woodall 34:38 The elevator pitch was, um, to create portable cream-based personalized makeup for women 35 plus.

Steven Bartlett 34:52 And how was that pitch received?

Trinny Woodall 34:54 I did 48 pitches before one person bit. I must've sent 300 emails.

Steven Bartlett 35:00 What kind of, uh, negative feedback did you get?

Trinny Woodall 35:02 Oh, I had lots. I had, um... I had, "You don't have enough followers." Fine. I had, like, I think, 50,000 followers then. Um, I had, "You're too old to start a business." I had, "Who's going to really run the business?" Classic, one of the best ones.

Steven Bartlett 35:19 Ooh, that's a nice little-

Trinny Woodall 35:20 I lo-

Steven Bartlett 35:20 ... bu- backhanded...

Trinny Woodall 35:21 ... love that one. You live in this Neverland. It's not like it's never gonna happen, but it's never gonna happen. But there's... You don't put words to either... You sit like this place. And I had that feeling. I thought, "Are people ever gonna get it?" But I thought, "I'm never gonna give up." So they both sat side by side really strong for me.

Steven Bartlett 35:36 Why didn't you give up?

Trinny Woodall 35:38 Because I knew it was a fucking good idea, and I knew it would work. I just had to find the right people who would get it, you know?

Steven Bartlett 35:43 But everyone's telling you no. Everyone's telling you to-

Trinny Woodall 35:44 I don't care if everyone's telling me no. I know. And I know enough and I believe in myself enough to know I know it's a good idea. I just know it. I just gotta find somebody who has the vision to understand it. That's it.

Steven Bartlett 35:55 How do you know it though?

Trinny Woodall 35:57 Because I know women. Because I've made over 5,000 women in my life because I know what women miss. I know the frustration they feel at the beauty counter. I know that some of them don't want to admit they don't know how to do a smoky eye. I know that some women feel stuck, but they don't know how to articulate, "How do I do it again? Because I don't wanna seem silly in front of my friends." I know that some women feel just... They could never do that.

Steven Bartlett 36:24 Was it expensive to start the business?

Trinny Woodall 36:26 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 36:26 What were the personal sacrifices?

Trinny Woodall 36:28 There are phys- there are financial ones, and there are friendship ones.

Steven Bartlett 36:33 Did you have to sell any tables? Let's start with the financial ones.

Trinny Woodall 36:35 No, but I sold my house.

Steven Bartlett 36:37 You sold your house?

Trinny Woodall 36:37 Yeah, I sold my house. And I'd kind of-

Steven Bartlett 36:40 Why?

Trinny Woodall 36:41 ... because I couldn't afford to stay in it. I had debt. I had a big mortgage. I had kind of... When I'd separated with Johnny, I'd wanted to get this house that I bought that would enable me to walk my daughter to school. I just wanted this thing, okay? Like, desperately. So I bought this house with a really big mortgage, and I did a loan, and I did it from scratch. And it was my dream, every single little element of this house, I built.

Steven Bartlett 37:08 Did that make you sad? That realization? 'Cause it seems like it would have.

Trinny Woodall 37:10 The idea that I would have to leave the house was something I thought about every single day for six months, and thought, "What can I do to prevent it?" Because I'd worked this hard for so long to have this house. I've always wanted to own a house, (laughs) you know? But once you let go of it is just a fucking house... And you think there's a bigger picture, and the bigger picture maybe could buy me five houses. But the bigger picture is that there is a bigger picture, not even to look to the stage where you might be able to buy a nicer house. But it's like, I was on a mission, Steven. I was on a mission, and I thought, "I've got to make it happen. I can't not do this." There was no turning back. I couldn't not start the business. So then it was, what did I have to do to start the business? 'Cause first of all, I sold all my clothes. I did this sale, and I went onto Emily's List, and I... Emily's List is this... And I was renting out the house, so I didn't ca- care who came in my house. I had, like, a thousand people coming in my house, buying clothes. So I raised, in two sales, 60 grand. 'Cause I used to furrow... I used to follow Gary Vaynerchuk, and Gary was always like, "What the fuck can you sell in your house?" You know? "You can sell your trainers you went and spent a fortune on those." People who were saying, "Oh," whinging to Gary, and Gary's saying, "Sell something. Everyone has something

Trinny Woodall 38:30 they can sell." Well, how much do you want the business? How much do you want to be successful and start the business? What are you prepared to give up? Look at the long-term gain.

Steven Bartlett 38:39 Was there any doubt, even a whisper of doubt? I say this in part because I looked back on when I started my business, I was keeping diary entries.

Trinny Woodall 38:46 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 38:46 Um, and I was... I fe- I feel the same as you. There was no going back, there was definitely not a plan B.

Trinny Woodall 38:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 38:51 My parents weren't speaking to me.

Trinny Woodall 38:51 There's no plan B. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 38:52 I'm shoplifting pizzas at this point to feed myself.

Trinny Woodall 38:55 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 38:55 I'm like, "I can only go forward, right?"

Trinny Woodall 38:57 Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 38:57 "I haven't paid my rent in three months."

Trinny Woodall 38:58 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 38:58 "My rent is only 150 pounds in Rusholme."

Trinny Woodall 39:01 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:01 Um, but then I... and I... So I r- recount that moment of my life as I, I, I zoom in on the ten- tenacity, and the certainty, and this conviction.

Trinny Woodall 39:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:09 But then I look at these diary entries, and on this day, I'm, like, doubting myself a little bit. It didn't last.

Trinny Woodall 39:14 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:15 But there was a, there was a day where it was like a rocky...

Trinny Woodall 39:17 For sure.

Steven Bartlett 39:18 You know? And that's why, you know-

Trinny Woodall 39:18 For sure.

Steven Bartlett 39:19 Yeah.

Trinny Woodall 39:19 It's not all like... The thing is, the overarching theme is, I can't go back.

Steven Bartlett 39:24 Yeah.

Trinny Woodall 39:24 It shouldn't negate the fact you're going to have doubt, you're going to question h- you know? It's like, there's this thing, somebody will believe in it, but there was, like, another 10 meetings and nobody has. You know, you think-

Steven Bartlett 39:36 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Trinny Woodall 39:37 And also, at the end of an investor present- you know, when you inve- uh, present to investors, the real questioning of your integrity over your idea is how much you decide what was the last meeting they had in the room which they brought that advice to your meeting on a totally different business to kind of talk about the market or... I mean, the amount of times I've talked about, like, you know, "It's about growth, it's not about retention. It's about 70% new customers, 30% retention." And I was always saying, "No, it's 60% retention, 40% growth." But saying this when Casper mattresses was going high fly, was like, nobody would listen. I know now then why they didn't invest, 'cause their whole thing was, "Growth, retention, fuck it."

Steven Bartlett 40:20 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Trinny Woodall 40:20 You know? And it's like, retention is everything. You got to damn well grow. You've got to have new customers, but if you don't have the bedrock of retention, the kind of classic, you know, like, companies that don't do any publicity, like, um, Five Guys, or some companies-

Steven Bartlett 40:34 Mm-hmm.

Trinny Woodall 40:34 ... that haven't done much publicity, they're relying on the customer loving it. They're relying on getting new customers from their customers, you know?

Steven Bartlett 40:42 Mm-hmm.

Trinny Woodall 40:42 They're relying on the most classic word of mouth moment. But you've got to build a company on cement. And I felt at the time, these guys looking around, they're building it on quicksand. You've got to then leave that investor meeting and think, "What do I take away that's good advice?" So the advice I took away to myself was, if I'm in a room of predominantly men, I want to go in... And a female trait to me is you want to paint the entire picture. You want to bring somebody into your universe, and you want to show them everything so they don't have one thing they can hone in on to make sense of your business and join the dots. You don't give them the dot joiner. So therefore, the thing I learnt was to go in and say, "Look, we're starting with this, and from this, I'm going to give you this, and then we'll get to that." And they're like, "Okay," and they... It's not men are slow and women are faster. It's like there is a fundamental difference in how people need information delivered to them so they can absorb it, go, "Yeah, that ticks my box," and then be ready to listen to the next bit of information. And that I didn't know. I didn't know into the 10th pitch. And then in the 10th pitch, or whatever, halfway through my pitching, I kind of thought, "Actually, what am I not doing right here

Trinny Woodall 42:00 to convey?" Because if I believe this is a good idea, if I believe it has legs, what am I not getting through to them that I need to?

Steven Bartlett 42:08 And that's the vision of the future, kind of?

Trinny Woodall 42:10 It's a bit the vision of the future. It's like, there's a real classic that if you are a woman, generally, men, if it's predominantly males, they will ask, "How do you protect your downside?" And if I'm a man sitting here, they will say, "How do you maximize your upside?" It's a classic, all right? So when then-

Steven Bartlett 42:27 So just to b- explain for people that don't understand, um, downside is basically like the stock-

Trinny Woodall 42:31 How do you, how, how do you negate your risk?

Steven Bartlett 42:33 Yeah.

Trinny Woodall 42:33 So, so, you know, how do you protect your risk? You know, what happens if you have a problem with the product? What happens if you can't find the customer? What happens if bla, bla, bla? And maximizing the upside is how you're going to scale, how you gonna make that business bigger. So-... I thought to myself, "Okay. All right." So then when they would start to get to that little thing, I would say, "You know what? These three ways, like any business, is what I'll be doing. Now, let us focus on how we're going to maximize the upside." And just kind of gently, not insultingly, sometimes I was a little bit, you know?

Steven Bartlett 43:07 So, you became aware of their prejudice and would counteract it before they kind of had a chance to use that as a way to, to kind of criticize them?

Trinny Woodall 43:15 Yeah, you kind of want to bring in the conversation.

Steven Bartlett 43:16 Okay.

Trinny Woodall 43:16 But it took me a while, Steven. It took me, 'cause I had never gone to... You know, when I did investor presentations in '99, I did five, and I got it, you know? In those, t- two of them invested. It was a very different time in pitching a concept.

Steven Bartlett 43:30 How did you counteract the prejudice that you knew was existing in those pitch boardrooms? Or did you? How did you deal with it?

Trinny Woodall 43:40 It's difficult, because there's a part of me that thought... Like, I went to one, and he said, "I love the idea, but it will only be successful if you do it for millennials or gen Z, because they're the only people who are gonna buy like that. Because women of, of your age don't know how to buy makeup online."

Steven Bartlett 43:58 Mm-hmm.

Trinny Woodall 43:58 Okay? And at the time, 26% of people bought beauty online, all right? And of that 26%, maybe 15% were in the demographic that I said. But I said, "I'm providing personalization that will make a woman, and I will talk to women in a way of a language they understand, to think, 'Actually, maybe if I went online I'd be better diagnosed than if I went in store,' because she has this personalization." And, and then when it launched and those very first few people who had never shopped for makeup online did it, and thought, "This is better than me going to B. Jones," it was like, spread the word. Spread the word. And it built on itself. But at that time, when the man from this, uh, VC was saying that, and I was like... I left the room, and I thought, "I actually would not want this person to invest in my business anyway."

Steven Bartlett 44:49 (laughs)

Trinny Woodall 44:49 So, there is that maturity you can get of thinking... Because you've got to also... You know, when you're going for money, you very much feel the power is in their hands, and there's got to be something you bring into the room where you think, "Do I want these people-

Steven Bartlett 45:01 Mm-hmm.

Trinny Woodall 45:01 ... to invest in my business?" And to get to a stage where you're the one in a way on the back foot, 'cause you're wanting the cash, how can you then say to yourself, "Turn it around," you know? "Do I want these people in the business? Have they got something to contribute?" And asking them questions like, "What will you contribute? What do you do for your other VCs? I've spoken

Trinny Woodall 45:23 to a few. You know, you have this big thing saying that you get the CMOs together and whatever, but do you actually do that? And, and how does that happen to you?" And...

Steven Bartlett 45:31 How much is this business worth in your perspective?

Trinny Woodall 45:35 Don't give out valuations.

Steven Bartlett 45:37 Oh, d- I read 180 million online. Ex- it's doing well though.

Trinny Woodall 45:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 45:43 What, what can you tell me about the scale of the business to g- just to give us an inclination?

Trinny Woodall 45:47 We've, you know, grown over 100% a year, um, over-

Steven Bartlett 45:53 How many years?

Trinny Woodall 45:54 ... five years.

Steven Bartlett 45:54 Five years?

Trinny Woodall 45:55 Um, yeah, we did 50-something million last year. Um, we, uh, we sell in 180 countries. We started skincare a year and a half ago. It's now 38% of my revenue. So, it's growing quite quickly. It has the highest retention. So, when I look at the business and I look at retention of product, for me, the value of the business, and look at what product base is there, are. So, that, to me, is an exciting place the business is going to. Um, we're localizing in different countries, so there's one thing to be sold internationally, but then when you localize, it takes a lot of, um...

Steven Bartlett 46:40 Personalization across different countries

Trinny Woodall 46:41 Yeah, it does. ... companies. And so, we, we did it when we're about

Trinny Woodall 46:45 50% in the UK, and then we're about 23% in Australia. We're 10% in America.

Steven Bartlett 46:50 That is a fantastic business.

Trinny Woodall 46:52 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 46:52 And I would like to invest. What... When you think about your character traits and what you bring to the business, what, what is that, and how has that led the business to become successful? 'Cause I think in founders, we talked earlier about focusing on the thing you're good at.

Trinny Woodall 47:04 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 47:05 What is the thing that Trinny is good at in this business?

Trinny Woodall 47:08 I think I'm good at understanding how women react to things and what they want, and how you speak to somebody so they can hear it. I think that's probably what I know better than anyone else in the company.

Steven Bartlett 47:22 How do you speak to someone so that they hear it?

Trinny Woodall 47:25 Well, years ago, I did Oprah. And Oprah taught me a lot. And she was, she is an amazing woman. But when I used to do her shows, we would tell her stuff, 'cause we'd just done a book and it had become a number one Times bestseller in, in America. And it was like, she helped us do that. But she would tell them stuff I'd said, and then she would repeat it three times within that half an hour. She'd just repeat it, repeat it. And I said after with Oprah, "You, you always repeat." (laughs) She said, "Because it registers. They get reminded. They remember." So, that sense of you say something, and you say it three times in maybe three different ways so that by the end of that conversation, somebody walks away with a new thought in their head. So, there is that. And I don't consciously do that anymore. I think at the beginning I probably did, because I remember what she said, and then it, it got into a habit. But... And it's also remembering who you speak to. Because when you speak, when I do my contribution to, to Trinny London of, on social, I could be speaking to many different women. I could be speaking to a nurse on 18 grand a year who saves up every month to buy one thing. And I could be speaking to somebody who could buy 10 things and chooses to buy us, okay? So, it's quite a broad remit. But they all...... realize, because of what I've spoken about, the importance of actually buying things that really work for your skin and not wasting your money and- and not putting things on that are bad for your skin. I don't mean bad like green. I mean like don't do anything for your skin or just understanding what you should use is not what your best friend should use. And because I- I had very bad acne. I mean, like when you talked about your turning off the light.

Steven Bartlett 49:12 Mm-hmm.

Trinny Woodall 49:12 Okay. I used to decide what restaurant do I go into. Like if I was going out as- as an 18-year-old and I had this lighting, I would literally say, "Can we go to another restaurant?" Because you would see my acne pustules, um, coming down, and I would go like... I'd literally, I'd be like this for dinner. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 49:28 Mm-hmm.

Trinny Woodall 49:29 So that obsession with my skin and the effect it gave on my confidence and put, was a lot of what I put into when we look at what ingredients are we going to use and

Trinny Woodall 49:39 how are we going to use them. And we have a lab in England, you know. I'm proud of the fact we have a lab. We make things from scratch. We're not like, "Hey, let's put a label on here and say Trinny London." You know?

Steven Bartlett 49:47 Are you proud of the business?

Trinny Woodall 49:49 Very.

Steven Bartlett 49:50 Are you proud of yourself?

Trinny Woodall 49:53 Um, yes, I am when I remember to be. I mean, I get-

Steven Bartlett 49:59 When I remember to be?

Trinny Woodall 50:00 No, like-

Steven Bartlett 50:01 You've crossed your arms. Look at the body language.

Trinny Woodall 50:02 No. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 50:03 (laughs)

Trinny Woodall 50:04 I am. I don't... It's very easy to... Well, I never get to a place of conceit. Um, many people are proud for me, and I sometimes find that challenging. Like I want to move the conversation on.

Steven Bartlett 50:20 Why?

Trinny Woodall 50:21 I don't know. I don't, I can't answer it, and it's just a thing, you know? But I'll have good friends of mine who've known me a long time who will just say, you know, very lovely things about having grown the business.

Steven Bartlett 50:36 I- I often... I'm gonna have-

Trinny Woodall 50:37 How do you feel on some? Because we got-

Steven Bartlett 50:38 Yeah, no, no, no.

Trinny Woodall 50:39 ... to discuss it together 'cause we must go through the same stuff.

Steven Bartlett 50:40 No, I do, I'm asking questions, but I- I- I can relate.

Trinny Woodall 50:43 But you are... So, okay, so- so give me your feedback first.

Steven Bartlett 50:45 Well, when someone gives me a big compliment, at the same time, they're also r- reminding me of everything I could lose. And so I think my- my natural way of dealing with things is to, as you've kind of described, is that forward motion.

Trinny Woodall 50:56 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 50:56 That forward motion makes me feel stable.

Trinny Woodall 50:58 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 50:59 So whenever someone comes to me and gives me a compliment about something I've achieved, it's- it's, um... I always say, like, chaos is stability and stability is chaos. It's a moment of stability that I don't like. Like just the idea of- of- of accomplishment-

Trinny Woodall 51:11 Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 51:12 ... creates a stability that I don't like. I want chaos. I need that forward motion to feel stib- stable.

Trinny Woodall 51:16 Mm-hmm. It's a weird one because it's like a lot of people would disagree with what you're saying in terms-

Steven Bartlett 51:22 Yeah. (laughs)

Trinny Woodall 51:22 ... in terms of, you know, sort of a self-worth guru who's saying you've got to- you've got to, you know, take a step to... A lot of friends who say, "Trinny, you need to take a moment to acknowledge how far you've come." And I think what you're saying is... I'm just trying to grasp exactly your thing of the chaos and stability. And I think-

Steven Bartlett 51:42 I can explain it better.

Trinny Woodall 51:43 I... Yeah. Okay.

Steven Bartlett 51:44 So when- when Olym- Olympians go to the Olympics, they come back, even if they've won a gold medal and they fall into a- a depression. I think they call it gold medal depression.

Trinny Woodall 51:51 Okay.

Steven Bartlett 51:51 The stats around it are alarming. I think I read one article where- where it said up to 80% of Olympians post, um, the Olympics feel that way. Um, I think that humans, most of us anyway, maybe that's why we're in these buildings with these amaz- amazing technology, have it within us to need to- to... It goes back to what I said before we started recording about progress.

Trinny Woodall 52:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:09 We need a sense of forward motion. We don't... The opposite of, um... What we don't want is completed goals, abundant resources, and nothing to strive for.

Trinny Woodall 52:16 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 52:17 So maybe because I'm particularly... I was particularly insecure as a child, I need... I get my worth from the sense of forward motion and accomplishment.

Trinny Woodall 52:24 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 52:25 The thought of stopping-

Trinny Woodall 52:26 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:27 ... and being done is a form of psychological chaos.

Trinny Woodall 52:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:30 It's a form of purposelessness.

Trinny Woodall 52:32 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:32 And so I think stability is actually the forward motion, the chaos.

Trinny Woodall 52:37 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 52:37 The uncompleted goals, the striving.

Trinny Woodall 52:39 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 52:39 That's when I feel most stable.

Trinny Woodall 52:41 Okay.

Steven Bartlett 52:41 And when you remove that-

Trinny Woodall 52:43 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 52:43 ... something to strive for, I feel- I feel... which people would call stability, I feel chaos.

Trinny Woodall 52:46 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:47 Um, but also, I think for me and you, there is something, um, where our work is... I know it for me anyway, is inherently linked at a deep, deep level to our sense of self-worth.

Trinny Woodall 52:58 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:59 And so, um, yeah, it's quite... I feel deeply uncomfortable when I get a compliment about w- um, the work we do or, um, when people say that to me, "Oh, you need to pause for a second and just think about how far you've come."

Trinny Woodall 53:12 Yeah. It's-

Steven Bartlett 53:12 It's robbing me of (laughs) something.

Trinny Woodall 53:14 (laughs) It's a... Yeah. It's like... It is, um...

Steven Bartlett 53:19 When will enough be enough?

Trinny Woodall 53:24 I don't know if enough should never, ever be enough. I don't know if you should always have a little bit. I don't know. Because, you see, you live in chaos, so I'll ask you that question. When will enough be enough?

Steven Bartlett 53:35 (laughs)

Trinny Woodall 53:35 When will enough be enough for you?

Steven Bartlett 53:35 There's that Hamilton song. << I will never be satisfied >> I always think about that. Um, well, I go back to what I said. I... I hope, I hope... There's no such thing as enough in my li- mind.

Trinny Woodall 53:45 Yeah. So- so when will enough... Answer your question. When will enough be enough?

Steven Bartlett 53:48 It will never be because enough is always gonna mean forward motion, so... And progress.

Trinny Woodall 53:55 Enough is going to mean enough.

Steven Bartlett 53:56 Yeah. Enough...

Trinny Woodall 53:57 No, because it-

Steven Bartlett 53:57 Success to me is forward motion and progress.

Trinny Woodall 54:00 Okay.

Steven Bartlett 54:00 So succne- success can't therefore possibly be any destination.

Trinny Woodall 54:03 Okay.

Steven Bartlett 54:03 It is the forward motion and progress.

Trinny Woodall 54:05 It's a journey.

Steven Bartlett 54:06 It is forward motion.

Trinny Woodall 54:07 It's a journey.

Steven Bartlett 54:07 It is challenge. It is autonomy. It is a meaningful goal to strive towards, and it's doing it with people I love.

Trinny Woodall 54:12 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:12 That's success for me.

Trinny Woodall 54:13 Okay.

Steven Bartlett 54:14 And- and so I need challenge. I need forward motion-

Trinny Woodall 54:16 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:16 ... with people I love.

Trinny Woodall 54:17 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:17 High degree of self-control. Um...

Trinny Woodall 54:19 Yeah. It's your life breath.

Steven Bartlett 54:20 Yeah.

Trinny Woodall 54:21 It's why, uh, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:21 And then I'll die someday as I'm doing it. (laughs)

Trinny Woodall 54:23 Yeah, yeah, it is life breath. Yeah. It really is. (page turns)

Steven Bartlett 54:28 As you know, Zoe are a sponsor of this podcast, and I'm a big investor in the company. You guys know I'm rarely sitting still because that's just the nature of my life. So, whether I'm in a business meeting with my investments or I'm recording this podcast, I'm always running from A to B. But the one promise that I made to myself is to fuel my body sufficiently, and Zoe has been really the key part of me succeeding in that mission. For those of you that don't know, I've been a Zoe member for about a few months now, ever since I had Zoe's scientific co-founder, Professor Tim Spector, on this podcast. Zoe helps me to understand how to make better food choices for my long-term health, and it's all personalized to me. Eating the right food is essential for me to keep me going because some of my meetings are often later in the day, and so I need to ensure that I keep my energy levels up. And Zoe allows me to understand which foods work for me and which foods don't. Eating the Zoe way, I don't get that dreaded afternoon crash, and I feel great. So, to get started with Zoe, go to zoe.com/stephen and use my exclusive code CEO10 for 10% off. So many of you have been asking me for a discount code. Here it is, CEO10. Go to zoe.com/stephen

Steven Bartlett 55:32 and use my exclusive code CEO10 for 10% off. And if you already use Zoe, send me a DM and let me know how you're getting on. What is success to you these days? Like, what is... what does success mean for you? People ask me that all the time as well.

Trinny Woodall 55:45 But, I mean, it's such a... when you hear that question, people think, "Oh, fuck." So make it specific. Like, so-

Steven Bartlett 55:51 It's too generalistic.

Trinny Woodall 55:52 So, what's... I- if you, if I... let's look, look at the next decade of your life.

Steven Bartlett 55:57 Okay.

Trinny Woodall 55:57 If I say to y- if we meet again in 10 years time and I say, you say to me, "That was a successful decade." Speaker 2: All right, that's a good way.

Steven Bartlett 56:03 "What happened?"

Trinny Woodall 56:03 Okay. Next 10 years, successful decade. Um, the one thing, this is the only thing where I will bring age into it, all right? Is I am 59. So, when I'm 69, do I want to be working so hard that I sort of miss friends' birthdays and don't get to, you know, take part in life of things outside my work? Because that's a big one. Like, when you're in your 20s and 30s, you can kind of like... all your friends are doing that too, you know, and in that same space. So, it doesn't matter if you say, "Look, in a month we'll get together, we'll all go for a weekend somewhere," because you're all doing it, so it's like you're on this thing together. But when you're me, probably of my friends, maybe 80% of them, their life is slightly different from what I'm doing right now. So... and that element of that friendship and those connection with people is fundamentally crucial to our feeding our soul. You know? And there's always that, you know, guy who, not the head of American Express, but he's like, you know, "Will I be remembered for how hard I worked?" You know, on the gravestone. There's that classic corny thing of like, "Will they remember how hard I..." you know? It's like, they won't. But whenever I read that, I think, "But they just had a nine-to-five job, and this is a passion." (laughs) You know? I always say that. I think this is so different because this is... because if I... if it was just a job, I'd probably say, you know, "I should slow down a bit," whatever. But I travel the world, I help a lot of people around the world, I meet a lot of... I was in Birmingham, um...

Steven Bartlett 57:40 What about work-life balance, Trinny?

Trinny Woodall 57:42 Yes, but this is the thing. It's like, I don't see my job as job and then there's work-life balance, because there's areas of my job which should be sociable things. So, I, I meet people, I have conversations with women every day. You know, on this, you know, social media thing, which is now a few, few million people, I have these women who know me really well. It's so interesting how you think, "Oh, but I haven't seen..." you know, I have my friends who have known me since I've been in my teens, but I have these women who are part of the Trinny tribe. They could be anywhere in the world, but they know me so well that like, I might do a little live and they'll DM me and say, "Trinny, I sensed this this morning. Are you okay? Do you need to take a breath?" You know? And then when I sh- I shared this... you know, that John had died, and, um... and so, you know, there were in- you know, they sent thousands of messages, and I read. I read everything people send, because if people make the effort to write a message... and on my Instagram I respond to everything. You know, I... we have a team of 11 people who... we have like 12,000 comments a week for Trinny London stuff. But I do all my Instagram because that's the beating heart of the women in my life and the feeling people are feeling. You know, whenever you have a business, you need to understand, what is the feeling people are feeling? So, in England, we have a big cost of living crisis. I still want to give people quality products that are premium. So, with all these things going on, how do I sense check this thing? How do I adapt the conversation so that it still is relevant to their life and they're just... so going back to this work-life balance, it's like they help me to sit for a second and like... one of them sent this message three days... they said, "Trinny, you have to remember to feel what you're going through right now, because you don't usually. You just rush through it, and you need to do it." This is someone I've never met before, ever, okay? (laughs) But they're just incredible women. And so my... when you, when you talk about a business, all right, when you talk about starting a business, my business is this passion for these women to feel great. And, and our sort of, you know... you always have these, what's your vision board and what's your mission as a company? But it's literally to leave a woman feeling better about herself than before she came into contact with me, with Fearless, with the podcast, with Trinny London, with whatever. So, that's my mission. I am here for a mission. I know that sounds like whatever, but I am. I know I am. You know, I know I am. I know that when... like, I know that during COVID-... when there were people feeling, in a full family of people, fundamentally so alone as women, I knew how important it was that we should get out and we should chat to each other. I knew it was, just to, like, really chat, really, like, share the sh- share the feelings so they could go, "Me too. Me too." You know?

Steven Bartlett 1:00:55 So at 69, then, you're saying that you're gonna slow down and retire and have piña coladas on the beach?

Trinny Woodall 1:00:59 No, I'm- didn't say that at all.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:02 (laughs)

Trinny Woodall 1:01:02 Did I ever say that?

Steven Bartlett 1:01:03 So 69?

Trinny Woodall 1:01:04 No. So you just said to me, "In the next 10 years." So the next 10 years-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:06 Yeah.

Trinny Woodall 1:01:06 ... what does success look like? It's that this community grows because the more women who feel like this will tell more women-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:12 Yeah.

Trinny Woodall 1:01:12 ... and I would like, at the moment, maybe we have a million women-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:15 Mm-hmm.

Trinny Woodall 1:01:15 ... and I would like that to be, in the next 10 years, 15 million women, actually.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:19 Mm-hmm.

Trinny Woodall 1:01:19 So that, I'm gonna put that number out there. I'm gonna now remember it. I'd like that many women. Because if you can get to that many women-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:25 But then how are you gonna... I said that because you talked about changing the balance a little bit so you could be there for your social connections a bit more-

Trinny Woodall 1:01:32 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:32 ... your friends.

Trinny Woodall 1:01:33 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:33 If you've got a goal of 15 million women...

Trinny Woodall 1:01:36 So how am I growing this business where I have people in place who can do things that I can do better than me?

Steven Bartlett 1:01:44 So that you can go and do...

Trinny Woodall 1:01:45 So I can do m- even more of what only I can do-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:48 Yeah, in the business.

Trinny Woodall 1:01:49 ... in the business.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:50 And then, and then in a personal context.

Trinny Woodall 1:01:50 Because at the moment, I did this thing the other day, and I did this thing with my CEO and a board member, and I did, like, 365 days a year. All right? And we divided up, because we need to, like, see, 'cause pe- people could... it's very difficult to get meetings in with... So it was like, "Okay, there are six full days a year I do board meetings. There are 12 days a year I do investor stuff." So we had a little laugh and whatever, and then (laughs) it added up to more, more than the days of the year, okay, 'cause I haven't taken that much holiday. So Jane says to me, lovely Jane, she goes, "Trinny, this we have to change." So she said, "Okay, what do you not have to do?" You know, "How could we move to a place slowly where you don't do this, you do this, and you do this so much better?" It's like, you must talk to tons of people about when you have your best ideas.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:40 Mm-hmm.

Trinny Woodall 1:02:40 All right? We have our best ideas when we are, not further removed from the chaos, 'cause you love this chaos, but we're, we're removed enough that things have the room to bubble to the top.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:50 Mm-hmm.

Trinny Woodall 1:02:50 So I do Michael's Calm app every morning. All right?

Steven Bartlett 1:02:54 Mm-hmm.

Trinny Woodall 1:02:54 And I just started doing this other one on the, the one with the half bowl inner something. You know, that really good one? And there's this guy, David Chi, and it was discussed at, uh, Massey State Hospital, they did some research, that if you listen to his meditation for 59 days, and it changes your neural pathways, like ketamine might. Okay? It's really... I'm, anyway, I'm day 43, okay? Quite into it. But when I give myself that little space, the really good ideas for the business come up. And the more I'm just doing, running the business, running the business, the less we're gonna have of those. And I need to give the business the best of me.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:33 So at 69, do you think you're gonna be working less?

Trinny Woodall 1:03:37 Differently.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:38 Differently. More space for more creativity-

Trinny Woodall 1:03:40 Yeah, and, and, you know-

Steven Bartlett 1:03:41 ... and less operational.

Trinny Woodall 1:03:42 ... just s- just saying, "Yeah, I'll take a Friday off and go and (laughs) go for a weekend somewhere," and things like that. Yeah. Because, you know-

Steven Bartlett 1:03:48 And would you be able to go for a weekend without thinking about the business?

Trinny Woodall 1:03:51 Yeah. I did actually. Can I just tell you, for the first time in five years, I went away for five days

Trinny Woodall 1:03:57 two weeks ago, and I only did, like, eight emails. Which was just great.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:05 (laughs) You wrote this wonderful book, Fearless. It's really, really surprising. It's surprising, beautiful, by the way.

Trinny Woodall 1:04:11 Did you read any of it yet?

Steven Bartlett 1:04:12 Yes, I went through it.

Trinny Woodall 1:04:13 Oh, you did? Okay.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:13 And I read the entire section on life. The other sections about beauty and style are a little bit more tricky. (laughs)

Trinny Woodall 1:04:18 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:04:18 But I read everything in the life section about, that's where I got some of those quotes from, and, uh, the stuff about imposter syndrome and self-belief and all of those things. It is a, a life advice book, it is a beauty advice book, it is a style advice book. Um, and it's just a gorgeous coffee table style book.

Trinny Woodall 1:04:32 Have you seen? The thing is, this is me, okay?

Steven Bartlett 1:04:34 You want me to pass it to you?

Trinny Woodall 1:04:35 Yeah, because I hate looking at pictures of myself.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:39 Mm-hmm.

Trinny Woodall 1:04:40 So the whole point of doing this book was to say...

Steven Bartlett 1:04:42 You hate looking at pictures of yourself?

Trinny Woodall 1:04:43 I hate fucking looking at pictures of myself.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:44 Why?

Trinny Woodall 1:04:44 Is, I just do. So this is the book you'll have on your coffee table.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:48 Ah.

Trinny Woodall 1:04:49 Oh, look at that.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:49 Ah, okay.

Trinny Woodall 1:04:50 Can you see? So nice. Like, just, it will make you pick it up more.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:54 Ah.

Trinny Woodall 1:04:54 Because it's biased to have my face on the front. This is not biased.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:59 Ah, no, that is beautiful. And it's a nice little message as well-

Trinny Woodall 1:05:02 Yeah, exactly.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:03 ... to have a statement about yourself.

Trinny Woodall 1:05:04 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:06 Like... You know what? It's funny, wh- when I'm, when people come on the show and they have a product, I, I often try and spend some time, um, talking about their products and stuff. But the thing-

Trinny Woodall 1:05:14 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:14 ... the thing in this case is having got to understand you-

Trinny Woodall 1:05:19 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:19 ... and what drives you, and having felt how authentic and deep your passion is, there is no need... That, that, all, the product is just a byproduct of exactly that, what we've just experienced. So it's funny, 'cause I hear you're, how deeply passionate and obsessed you are about your mission, as you call it, and I just believe the product because I know where it's coming from.

Trinny Woodall 1:05:39 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:40 And that's the most important thing. It's coming from a deep sense of mission that is so unbelievably authentic. That starts, sounds like, in your childhood with the battle with your own skin issues and acne. Um, and the byproduct of that authentic mission is these wonderful products which are taking the world by storm. What, what, what have I got in front of me here? What's-

Trinny Woodall 1:05:57 Okay. So every per- so, uh, I'll just give you, I'm gonna give you the quick headlines so you can go back to your girlfriend and, and you can have knowledge.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:04 Let's just close off on this.

Trinny Woodall 1:06:04 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:05 The book is available in September.

Trinny Woodall 1:06:06 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:07 Fab.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:08 So everyone can-

Trinny Woodall 1:06:08 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:08 ... go pre-order that now?

Trinny Woodall 1:06:09 Yeah, they can pre-order it now.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:10 Wonderful.

Trinny Woodall 1:06:10 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:11 Great.

Trinny Woodall 1:06:12 So-

Steven Bartlett 1:06:13 Highly recommend everybody goes and pre-orders it, 'cause it's a beautiful book.

Trinny Woodall 1:06:15 Thank you very much. So fundamental skincare, whatever age you are or skin color you are or anything-

Steven Bartlett 1:06:23 Mm-hmm.

Trinny Woodall 1:06:23 ... is you should clean your skin properly.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:25 Okay.

Trinny Woodall 1:06:26 You should wear SPF-

Steven Bartlett 1:06:27 Okay.

Trinny Woodall 1:06:28 ... every day.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:28 Yeah.

Trinny Woodall 1:06:28 Whatever your melanin levels.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:30 Yeah.

Trinny Woodall 1:06:31 Cancer being the primary cause, but other...... aesthetics as well. Um, you should do something that regenerates your skin, and retinoids can do that.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:40 Mm-hmm.

Trinny Woodall 1:06:41 And exfoliants can exfoliate your skin. And you should keep your skin even, so vitamin C.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:47 Okay.

Trinny Woodall 1:06:48 So those, kind of, me, are the showstoppers in a routine.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:51 Well, what if I don't? 'Cause I'm guilty as charged on all above counts.

Trinny Woodall 1:06:54 Okay. If you don't, genes might make you think, "I don't need to. I'm fine." But I look at your skin, and I'm going to come over now. You-

Steven Bartlett 1:07:01 Oh, no. Don't call me. Oh, fuck.

Trinny Woodall 1:07:03 Because what I'm going to do is I... Do this. Look at me. And I close my eyes 'cause I need to feel your skin-

Steven Bartlett 1:07:08 Mm-hmm.

Trinny Woodall 1:07:08 ... without judging you by s- looking at you.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:12 Okay.

Trinny Woodall 1:07:12 Right? So what I do is I just have a feel, and I feel. So first thing I feel immediately is the congestion you have here, right in the center. A lot of people, like women, will have congestion here because they don't like to get their hair wet when they wash their face. You have congestion here on-

Steven Bartlett 1:07:27 Sure it's not muscle or something or-

Trinny Woodall 1:07:29 It's not muscle at all. I know the difference, darling.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:31 Okay.

Trinny Woodall 1:07:31 Um, there, and this is not, like, that's beard, you see? But this is congestion under the skin 'cause you have an oily skin, so you have a sebaceous gland that can sometimes get blocked under the skin. It doesn't become a spot, but it's congested. So that's there, all right? So-

Steven Bartlett 1:07:44 Oh my gosh.

Trinny Woodall 1:07:44 ... exfoliant, you're gonna use...

Steven Bartlett 1:07:46 I do get a lot of spots there.

Trinny Woodall 1:07:47 This. Okay. Well then you're gonna use Find Your Balance. In fact, we gotta get you Find Your Balance. Then I go round here. Then I feel your lymph. Whenever you're feeling blocked, doing this tiny movement here-

Steven Bartlett 1:08:01 Mm-hmm.

Trinny Woodall 1:08:01 ... releases your lymph nodes. And you go round the back.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:04 She's massaging my face for everyone that's listening on audio.

Trinny Woodall 1:08:06 Yeah. I'm now massaging your face.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:07 This feels really good.

Trinny Woodall 1:08:08 I'm going round your ears.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:09 Agree to disagree.

Trinny Woodall 1:08:10 Okay. And then you go down, and you want to kinda go down to your clavicle and release. This is all like a channel for all your lymph. So if you ever get a blocked face or you get dark circles, you do this kind of getting it down like this. You give this-

Steven Bartlett 1:08:21 Ah, that's why women always do that thing on Instagram-

Trinny Woodall 1:08:24 Yeah, pressure.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:24 ... with the, yeah, with the stone.

Trinny Woodall 1:08:26 So you're oilier here.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:28 Thank you.

Trinny Woodall 1:08:29 You've got a slight dark circle.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:31 Yeah. It's unslept, yeah.

Trinny Woodall 1:08:33 A little bit. And you've got hydrated skin but blocked skin. So for me, the best thing you would do for your skin is you would exfoliate your skin 'cause you need to slush off dead skin cells, and you need to clarify your skin. You need to get your pores... get the congestion out. So that means drinking water.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:51 Mm-hmm.

Trinny Woodall 1:08:51 It means having an exfoliant, a liquid exfoliant, so there are-

Steven Bartlett 1:08:55 Do you sell an exfoliant?

Trinny Woodall 1:08:56 We sell Tiptoe in there. You don't have sensitive skin, so you would use one called Find Your Balance, which I'm gonna give you.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:02 Okay. Thank you so much.

Trinny Woodall 1:09:02 Okay? And then afterwards, use a moisturizer called niacinamide. It's called Energise Me. It has something called succinic acid in it. Succinic acid is like... it's an ingredient that goes into your cell and goes (slaps) like this. So when you put that on, your skin will wake up. You'll feel an alertness to your skin.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:20 Mm-hmm.

Trinny Woodall 1:09:21 And then you'll feel... You get off a flight, and you feel, "I don't look tired," because you haven't looked. You need to touch your face. A lot of people just don't touch their face enough. You need to get the oxygen to your face. You know you go to the gym, and the oxygen goes round your body, and your lymph system works, and you get this feeling of aliveness? But we just leave our face alone. So you do this. You'd... Go on, do it with me. Just do it with me. Get your ci- get your fingers like this.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:44 Yeah.

Trinny Woodall 1:09:45 Like that. So it's like you've got a scissor, and do friction like this. Up, down, up, down. Then go left and right. Up, down, like that, okay? And then you wanna get your hands here-

Steven Bartlett 1:09:57 Yeah.

Trinny Woodall 1:09:57 ... and you wanna lift your cheekbones like this, fast. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. Feel the energy. Eleven, twelve, thap, thap, thap, thap, thap, thap, thap, thap, thap. Okay? Just let go. Now do you feel-

Steven Bartlett 1:10:09 Like rushing.

Trinny Woodall 1:10:10 ... this movement, a rush in your face?

Steven Bartlett 1:10:11 Yeah.

Trinny Woodall 1:10:12 That's your lymph.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:13 Okay.

Trinny Woodall 1:10:13 Your lymph is like your hosepipe around your face, and if you

Trinny Woodall 1:10:18 put a sort of foot on the hosepipe, it stops. You need this to move round. If it's moving round, it's releasing the toxins and taking them down here at the moment. It's leaving them on your skin, under your skin.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:27 So it's cleaning out my face?

Trinny Woodall 1:10:28 Yes. You want it to be moving. So-

Steven Bartlett 1:10:30 If there was just three things then. So tell me, tell me this. If-

Trinny Woodall 1:10:33 So if you had three things you would use...

Steven Bartlett 1:10:35 Yeah, three products I would use, and then sort of three principles towards skin, good skincare.

Trinny Woodall 1:10:39 Okay. You'd use Better Off, which is a cleanser and one. You go in the shower-

Steven Bartlett 1:10:43 Yeah.

Trinny Woodall 1:10:43 ... and you put this on your face.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:44 Yeah.

Trinny Woodall 1:10:44 It's-

Steven Bartlett 1:10:44 Done.

Trinny Woodall 1:10:45 ... AHA and PHA. It's got gentle exfoliating acids.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:48 Okay.

Trinny Woodall 1:10:49 Okay? Then Find Your Balance, which is an exfoliant, which is not there-

Steven Bartlett 1:10:53 Okay.

Trinny Woodall 1:10:54 ... but we're gonna get it for you. I don't know what we'll get for you. And Energise Me, which you don't have. Those three things is what you're gonna use.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:59 Okay.

Trinny Woodall 1:11:00 Your girlfriend will using a longer routine. I don't know what she looks like or her skin tone, but she'll probably have the retinols, and she'll have the vitamin Cs and a few other things. But you just need three things.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:11 So that's the products, and then the, in terms of the personal routines, you said drink water, sleep.

Trinny Woodall 1:11:16 Sleep.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:17 And then, like, massage my face?

Trinny Woodall 1:11:18 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:20 Got it.

Trinny Woodall 1:11:20 Okay?

Steven Bartlett 1:11:21 I'm looking forward to... I'm looking forward to it. I, I, I've f- I've always kind of pr-

Steven Bartlett 1:11:25 procrastinated on, like, skincare routines and stuff because-

Trinny Woodall 1:11:27 I know, but if it's easy.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:27 Yeah.

Trinny Woodall 1:11:27 If it's real easy, you'll do it.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:28 If it's by the sink, I'll pick it up, you know? So.

Trinny Woodall 1:11:30 Yeah, okay. Well, you'll just, like... We'll cement it down with Blu Tack.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:33 Cool.

Trinny Woodall 1:11:33 Okay.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:34 So we have a tradition where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, and not knowing who they're gonna be leaving it for.

Trinny Woodall 1:11:38 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:39 The question left for you is, what's the one thing that gives you the most healthy pleasure in life, and how can you commit to harness more of it?

Trinny Woodall 1:11:52 Going down a ski slope at 83 kilometers an hour. But the thing is, I just feel a responsibility now that I can't do that anymore.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:59 Why?

Trinny Woodall 1:12:00 Because it's very dangerous.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:02 That's true.

Trinny Woodall 1:12:02 You know? It's like I... But it is... It's a guilty ple- 'cause I love it. I love the speed. I love the, like, I'm just in control, wind through my hair, you know? It's the only sport I know how to do. I'm shit at every other sport.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:17 Sounds like the way you live life.

Trinny Woodall 1:12:18 Yeah, probably.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:20 In control, high speed.

Trinny Woodall 1:12:21 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:22 Wind through your hair. (laughs)

Trinny Woodall 1:12:24 (laughs) Probably. Good man. So I gotta leave one for somebody else now.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:26 Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for the inspiration. You truly are an inspiration, uh, tremendously, tremendously so, and I'm gonna make you feel uncomfortable. You should be so proud of how far you've come. (laughs)

Trinny Woodall 1:12:37 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:12:39 You must be so proud. Take some time to just ru- breathe it in and enjoy it, Trinny, 'cause it's... You're gonna regret it.

Trinny Woodall 1:12:44 Shut up now.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:45 I appreciate you so much. Thank you for being here. Thank you for coming and doing this, and thank you for creating a real business that's, um, inspiring so many people just through its existence, but also inspiring them to be better and to feel better about themselves through the wonderful products that you've made. And I highly recommend that everyone goes and gets this book. It's more of Trinny, the Trinny that I'm sure you've loved in this conversation. And these products, I mean, they speak from themselves because, as I said, you know exactly where they've come from. So thank you. As you may know, this podcast is sponsored by Huel. If you're living under a rock, you might have missed that. And Huel has such a wide range of products now, but there is a great way to try all of them. This is the Huel bestseller bundle, perfectly curated so that you can try all of their favorite products and decide which ones are your favorites. The bestseller bundle has a range of meals and bars, including the iconic Huel shaker, the pot, and a free T-shirt, which if you've got the free Huel T-shirt, you'll understand how well that T-shirt fits. I'm not just saying that. It really, really is phenomenal. If you've heard me talking about Huel but haven't tried it for some reason, then this is a great option for you to get to know the range and find the product that works best for you. I've tried every single Huel product in the boardroom, in the development laboratories, and in my home. And there's a couple of products which have just revolutionized my life because they meet the requirements that I'm looking for. So if you're looking to try Huel for the first time and to get into it and to join the Hueligan family, I highly recommend you try this out.