Victimhood & Self-sabotage Is Destroying The World In 2022: Africa Brooke | E160

Africa Brooke 0:00 If I'm not drinking or snorting something, what the fuck do I actually enjoy doing? (instrumental music plays) You know, who am I?

Steven Bartlett 0:06 Africa Brooke is a speaker, a podcast host, and she's helped hundreds of thousands of people see the world in a new light.

Africa Brooke 0:13 Thank you.

Narrator 0:15 Legend.

Steven Bartlett 0:15 Africa does not give a fuck, and that's why I love her.

Africa Brooke 0:18 If you're on the left, then you're the good person. If you're on the right, then you're the bad person. We're hanging out online where these platforms incentivize binary thinking; are you with us or are you against us? (instrumental music plays) There's only so much you can take. Most people didn't like when I said, that as a Black person I'm not oppressed, that there is a very real difference between being a victim and making victimhood an identity. Because if you don't think that you're worthy, that's always going to be the belief that you feed every single time.

Steven Bartlett 0:50 What became your dark side?

Africa Brooke 0:51 (instrumental music plays) From the age of 14, I was a blackout drinker. That's when I started to see that I was behaving in the exact same way that my dad did. (sniffs)

Steven Bartlett 1:06 Sex and sexuality.

Africa Brooke 1:07 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:08 Can you talk to me about what you've learned about those topics that might benefit me?

Africa Brooke 1:12 Well...

Steven Bartlett 1:15 Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music plays)

Steven Bartlett 1:29 Africa.

Africa Brooke 1:31 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:31 Let's... Uh, I mean if you've seen this podcast before, it's no surprise-

Africa Brooke 1:34 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:34 ... where I'm going to start. But, um, I was reading about your story. I was reading about, um, where you grew up-

Africa Brooke 1:40 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:40 ... and where you were originally born. Give me your earliest, most relevant context. Give me the context of, um, where you came from and, and how that context-

Africa Brooke 1:51 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:51 ... shaped the person that sits here with me today.

Africa Brooke 1:53 Oh, that's good. So I'm Zimbabwean.

Steven Bartlett 1:56 Mm-hmm.

Africa Brooke 1:57 I'm from Zimbabwe, and I think, uh, this accent always fools people into thinking (laughs) that I was born and raised here. But I was born in Zimbabwe, which is in the south of Africa. And I came to the UK when I was nine years old, so I remember my life back home in Zimbabwe quite clearly and vividly, actually. I don't remember it being hard apart from my experiences with my father. Even though he could be the most charming man, and he was such a beautiful man. He was the kinda person that walks into a room and you can feel that Maxwell has arrived. Just a very beautiful spirit. But when he was drunk, he could be very different, completely different. So I think the times that I can remember experiencing most of my sadness or frustration as a child was experiencing that side of my father, because he could be very abusive, and he was physically abusive to my mum and to myself and my siblings. But I don't even look at those things and think that I had a horrible childhood in Zimbabwe. I have so many wonderful, wonderful memories of being home, and I still call it home, you know. When people ask me where I'm from, I always say Zimbabwe before I say the UK or that I'm British. Um, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 3:17 You know when you say that you, you look back on Zimbabwe with fond m- fond memories.

Africa Brooke 3:21 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 3:21 Um, is that because at the time when, in your household, you didn't understand that behavior-

Africa Brooke 3:28 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 3:28 ... you didn't understand that it was bad behavior or that it was abnormal? Or is it genuinely because o- on balance, you, you consider it to be a, a happy childhood?

Africa Brooke 3:40 Yeah, I think it's actually the latter. I think I definitely understood that this wasn't right, although, to be honest, there were a lot of behaviors that my father exhibited that were considered normal just because of the culture. For example, things like disciplining your wife through hitting her, etc., etc., or your children. It was just kind of seen as normal. But I definitely knew that it wasn't right. I definitely knew that there was a problem. I knew that seeing a person that is that drunk was not something that felt comfortable. It wasn't remotely normal. And I'm able to now, I think in adulthood, hold multiple truths, which is something, interestingly enough, that I speak about a lot in my work, the importance of being able to hold multiple truths. Because like I say about my dad, I saw him as a bad person. I saw him as an evil person, even, and he passed away in 2004. And I never mourned his death because of the resentment that I was holding towards him. But then when I got sober years later, I had to hold multiple truths about him to realize that he was a beautiful man. I got to experience him in the very early years of my life as being a very present father, um, as being a very loving father before alcohol came into his life in the way that it did. So I had to then start holding multiple truths about him, because it, it wasn't all bad. So I think I hold those fond memories because I've had to realize that they did actually exist, beyond everything else.

Steven Bartlett 5:14 You said in your teen years you started to realize that he'd been, um, how bad he'd been to your, your mother.

Africa Brooke 5:21 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 5:22 How did you start to realize that at that age?

Africa Brooke 5:24 Mm-hmm. Through stories. Um, through speaking to my siblings about what we had all experienced in the home, because we never really spoke. I, I don't know what it's like in your family or when you were growing up, but we never really spoke about much, especially when it came to things that were potentially hard to talk about, things that, uh, revolved around emotions and being vulnerable, things that had anything to do with intimacy or a lack of intimacy. Even the most obvious things, like seeing my mum being hit...... and not talking about it, almost just pretending that it didn't happen. So I think in adulthood, when I started seeing how other families were, when I started to see how open other people are, I then started to see the lack in what I had experienced growing up. So I think that's when I started to kind of want, I wanted to know more. Did anyone else see what was happening? Did my aunts and uncles know what was happening? Um, why didn't anyone talk about it? Why didn't anyone talk to us? Why... So I think I had so many why type of questions, which fueled a lot of my resentment. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 6:37 Some of the times you said, you said, "Before alcohol showed up in his life."

Africa Brooke 6:40 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 6:42 As you'll know, um, these things tend to, we tend to attract these things into our lives.

Africa Brooke 6:47 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 6:47 Usually as, as you describe it, as a, uh, a firmer lid to hold some trauma.

Africa Brooke 6:53 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 6:53 I think was some terminology you used, uh, previously, um, in some, some of your work.

Africa Brooke 6:58 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 6:58 Did you ever understand the trauma that he was trying to, um, bottle up, using alcohol?

Africa Brooke 7:06 You know what, that's something that is still unfolding, because I think there's only so far that other family members will go in terms of really telling me and my siblings, or anyone else that wants to know, the reality of what was really going on. But I think he was also from a family where people didn't really have many conversations. His younger brother had committed suicide when he was 26, um, and there were other instances of mental health, and that wasn't really spoken about as well, because, because culturally, people just didn't talk about these things. So I think there were things that he was suppressing that I'll never, ever know about. So I think I've had to make peace with the fact that I, I won't be able to get all of the answers as to why and how. I just have to understand what did happen and what I experienced, and forgive where I can, get answers where I can, and also let go of expectations.

Steven Bartlett 8:08 I'd,

Steven Bartlett 8:09 I had a guest on this podcast called Tim Grover, and he, he talked about his early upbringing. He was, he ended up being Michael Jordan's and Kobe Bryant's trainer, and he says that, um, our childhood experiences tend to create our brilliance, but they also create our dark side.

Africa Brooke 8:22 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 8:23 And he referred to it as his dark side. He told me about-

Africa Brooke 8:25 Gosh.

Steven Bartlett 8:25 ... his dark side.

Africa Brooke 8:26 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 8:27 Um, dark side can sometimes mean insecurities, it can mean the, the, the worst traits or character flaws within us.

Africa Brooke 8:34 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 8:34 But from the experience you had, what became your dark side?

Africa Brooke 8:40 Mm. Oh, that's a fantastic question. You know what, I ended up replicating pretty much the same drinking behavior that my dad had. From the age of 14 up until 24 when I finally got sober, so a decade long, um, I was a blackout drinker. I was a binge drinker, very specifically. I didn't know when to stop, because my intention was never to stop from the first time that I drunk. It's almost as if something magical happened. I realized that I could change who I was, that I didn't have to feel insecure anymore, that I didn't have to think about the areas in which I'm different, the areas in which can lead to me being abandoned because I'm different. And what I mean specifically by that is, when I came to the UK when I was nine years old, I always say this, and I- I will continue saying it, because it was one of the f- (laughs) it's, uh, something that I laugh at, but it was quite big. It was the first time that I realized that I'm black. I had never, Steven, had to think about it before, ever had to think about it. But we moved to Kent when, in 2001, when we first came to the country, and in my school, it was probably me and my sister and one other boy called Curtis. We were the only black kids in the entire school. And I know you've shared your similar experiences with kind of just seeing just how much you stand out in an environment that you have to be in. And we were living in Kent for about three years, and then we moved to London. But the imprint was already made, the insecurity around who I was as a young black girl. When I moved to London, it was completely different, because now I was seen as prissy. I was seen as attractive. But that was also very confusing in itself, because I still didn't quite fit in, because now, to most of the black people that I was around, I was white, (laughs) because of the way that I spoke. By the time I was 14 and I drunk alcohol for the first time, it sort of silenced all of those things. I remember it was in a park with some friends, and the more that I drunk, the more confident I became, or so I thought. Um, and the more that I just felt at ease in myself and in my body and with the people around me. Even though I didn't start binge drinking or blackout drinking from that moment, an imprint had been made, a pattern started to develop, that every time that I drunk from that time, the intention was to get fucked up. The intention was to experience that same level of comfort and confidence that I felt that first time. And I tried and did replicate that same pattern over and over and over and over again for 10 years. And that's when I started to see that I was behaving in the exact same way that my dad did. So I think that's the sort of shadow that started to form.

Steven Bartlett 11:50 Lying.

Africa Brooke 11:51 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 11:52 That became-

Africa Brooke 11:52 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 11:52 ... a habit of yours.

Africa Brooke 11:53 It did. Compulsive lying.

Steven Bartlett 11:56 What w- what was compulsive lying doing for you-

Africa Brooke 12:00 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 12:01 ... on a psychological level? What was it, what was it allowing you to escape from, or escape where to, was it allowing you to escape to?

Africa Brooke 12:07 Mm.It was allowing me to feel accepted. It was allowing me to, sort of create my own world, because the world that I'd been in, a world where someone that was supposed to protect me and my siblings and my family, um, did the complete opposite and damaged our family in a very, very, very big way. I remember that it did start in Zimbabwe. When I would be at school, when I was quite young, maybe even six, probably around six or seven, I would go to school and sort of tell other kids about my dad and who he was and how amazing he was and all these things that he would, he would do. And parts of it were true, but most of it wasn't. Most of it was just me trying to create a reality that I could live with, a reality that made me feel safe, a reality that made me feel comfortable, a reality that other people could sort of step into for a moment and think, "Wow, that's, that's incredible." So therefore it would make me incredible in some kind of way. So I think I started to get rewarded for that, and then it just became habitual because any time that I felt like I wasn't fitting in in the way that I wanted to or that things were happening within our home that were just very uncomfortable, and I didn't, again, have the language for this. It, it was, it was all just feeling, knowing that something is quite wrong. I would then go into a different environment and just create a story, and I re- When you were speaking, to example, I think he was talking about something similar in relation to lying, where he was saying kind of embellishing the truth-

Steven Bartlett 13:52 Mm-hmm.

Africa Brooke 13:52 ... if you will, to kind of create a story, and I resonated with that so much because I think that's exactly what it was for me, just trying to create a different world. And when alcohol was a part of that as well, it was just even more explosive, and I think there was something quite addictive about that, being able to create your own reality and convince other people that that reality is actually true. Um, so it would, it was definitely a big part of my drinking, something that would come out.

Steven Bartlett 14:22 It's so interesting 'cause when you were describing why you lied, a lot of people listen to this and think, "Well, I can't relate because I'm not a liar."

Africa Brooke 14:29 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 14:29 But the lens in which I sort of heard that through is, um, pretty much everyone listening to this is lying for the same reason. Th- the words you used were to create a reality, then you said, "I would be rewarded for when I found it better to live in."

Africa Brooke 14:42 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 14:42 And if you think about an Instagram filter-

Africa Brooke 14:46 Yeah, yes.

Steven Bartlett 14:47 ... that's a, that's a form of, uh, creating a world where you feel more comfortable and get more rewards for.

Africa Brooke 14:51 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 14:52 Even like the s- the selection of the, the online identity that some, some of us create where we show-

Africa Brooke 14:58 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 14:58 ... just the very best, or we try and change how we look or whatever, that is surely a form of lying to get better rewards and to, to create a world where you feel more comfortable and safer to live in.

Africa Brooke 15:08 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 15:08 Like, you, you know? And so lying is not just saying something which is not true. It's-

Africa Brooke 15:13 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 15:13 It's a morphing of one's identity to create a safer, I guess, identity or story-

Africa Brooke 15:19 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 15:19 ... that the world might reward you for.

Africa Brooke 15:21 Right.

Steven Bartlett 15:21 But in doing so, you obviously abandon yourself.

Africa Brooke 15:23 Exactly. So it's like a... Another word that comes to mind as we talk about this is, is deception, right?

Steven Bartlett 15:29 Mm-hmm.

Africa Brooke 15:30 It's a form of, of deception, and I think it, for me, it was not even just about deceiving other people. It was deceiving myself so that I could live with myself better, you know, if I see myself through this lens. Um, but yeah, it's, it's very interesting how we can hear certain words and think, "No, that doesn't, that doesn't resonate with me. I don't do that," but then it just shows up very subtly in the things we do every single day. But yeah, lying was a, was a huge thing, was a huge, huge thing for me, and it's something that I really had to look dead in the eye when I got sober six years ago. Um,

Africa Brooke 16:07 yeah.

Steven Bartlett 16:08 Going back to that per- that period where you were drinking-

Africa Brooke 16:10 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 16:11 ... and you were engaging in certain abandonment-style behaviors to try and escape-

Africa Brooke 16:15 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 16:15 ... from, you know, this, um, who you were, what is the cost of abandoning yourself? What is the cost?

Africa Brooke 16:22 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 16:23 I know it's quite a profound thing-

Africa Brooke 16:24 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 16:25 ... but what was the cost for you of that continual, for almost 10 years-

Africa Brooke 16:28 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 16:28 ... finding ways to abandon yourself?

Africa Brooke 16:31 The cost was that I, I never got to know myself. I never got to know myself, not in the ways that I really wanted to anyway. I got, I got to know the version of me that I thought people wanted, so I wasted a lot of time doing that, and there was also very real mental cost because waking up next to someone, not knowing where you are, not knowing if you've had sex with that person, there's a huge mental cost to that. On your self-esteem, it fuels a lot of shame. It fuels a lot of guilt because I would be in relationships sometimes when these things would happen. Not, not, "Have I cheated on my partner, or was this just something innocent because my clothes are still on?" So it, it really, really had a huge mental cost. So there was a lot of anxiety. There was a lot of insecurity. I would even say, you know, a low-level paranoia because when you wake up not knowing whether you've done something but feeling like you will need to apologize for something, um, going through my phone just to have an idea of what I've done or what I didn't do. Who was I with? How did I end up all the way in fucking Surrey when I was in Soho not too long ago? Um, so there was a huge mental cost.

Steven Bartlett 17:51 Hmm.

Africa Brooke 17:51 But also there was a spiritual cost because, just like I said right, uh, a few moments ago, not getting to know yourself and then getting sober further down the line and feeling like you're a newborn baby. I, I didn't even know what I liked to do. "What the fuck do I actually enjoy doing?"If I'm not drinking or smoking something, or snorting something, what do I actually, what do I enjoy? You know, who am I as an individual without all of those things? Can I even be by myself? So there was a huge spiritual cost. And once I realized the cost of all of those things, it was around the same time that I discovered the concept of self-sabotage, right? When you get in your own way. And that helped me so much, just to even have that language to understand what this thing actually was, why I had been in that destructive cycle for such a long time. Um-

Steven Bartlett 18:50 I wanna just, on that point of the destructive cycle-

Africa Brooke 18:53 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:53 ... 'cause when you were explaining waking up-

Africa Brooke 18:56 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 18:56 ... you know, um, the next day, somewhere where you don't know, you don't know what you've done the night before-

Africa Brooke 18:59 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 19:00 ... and that giving you guilt, it hurting your self-worth, it's-

Africa Brooke 19:03 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 19:03 ... it was... My, my brain was going, "Well, this was meant to be the, the medicine for a lack of self-worth."

Africa Brooke 19:09 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 19:10 And it ends up taking even more of your self-worth. So it's this kind of race to the bottom of your self-esteem by thinking that the medication is this kind of destructive abandonment behavior-

Africa Brooke 19:20 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 19:20 And it's, and that's weirdly self-reinforcing. So-

Africa Brooke 19:23 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 19:23 ... you do it to try and escape, but it harms you so much that you need that, maybe that sort of surface-level attention-

Africa Brooke 19:31 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 19:31 ... the alcohol even more. So that leads you in the same place, and that vicious cycle to the bottom of your self-esteem.

Africa Brooke 19:36 Right.

Steven Bartlett 19:37 And then trying to pick yourself up out of that is one hell of a task.

Africa Brooke 19:41 Oh, yeah. It, it's probably one of the most grueling things I've done, which is why, actually, I'm, I'm actually very grateful for all of those times that I did relapse, because I think... I was reminded every single time just how much I wanted to break this fucking cycle, and how much I had to. Because it's so... Anything that is familiar, anything that is familiar feels safe in some way, even though objectively it might look like, how is this person not changing their life? Clearly, they're losing everyone around them. And I'm talking about myself. Losing everyone around them, can't even stay in any job for longer than a month, unable to commit to anything, incredibly unreliable. How can they not see that something needs to change? But the thing is, when you are in that cycle of self-destruction, self-sabotage, if it feels familiar, it's, it's kind of all you know, that when I would have those bursts of sobriety where I'd be sober for three months and six months and I didn't have any chaos, I didn't have any drama, I was reliable, I, people were saying that they're proud of me, you know, I could see that I was doing well, it made me uncomfortable. It made me uncomfortable 'cause it didn't feel familiar. And there was always this thing in the back of my mind that would sort of say, "You're gonna fuck up anyway. So might as well just, might as well just do it now." You know. And that's when the justifications would come. Things like, "I haven't had a drink in six months, so maybe if I just have one, it's, it's going to be different." You know. Or I would say things like, um, "I have a problem with alcohol, but cocaine is not the problem, so maybe I can still have a line every now and again and then, you know, and then I can still be with my friends and..." S- so all of these justifications. But when I really looked at it, I was uncomfortable with my life actually being drama-free, chaos-free, and being reliable, being able to be there for the people that I, that I love, um, because I was just so comfortable in that destruction, and I chose it every single time until, until I didn't, until I couldn't.

Steven Bartlett 22:00 If someone's listening to this, um, and they're in one of those sort of downward, um, negatively reinforcing self-esteem cycles-

Africa Brooke 22:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 22:08 ... where you're carrying out a behavior because it, because you have low self-esteem, but then that behavior-

Africa Brooke 22:13 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 22:13 ... is actually resulting in a lowering of your self-esteem. It can be-

Africa Brooke 22:16 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 22:16 ... a toxic relationship where you're staying because they took your self-esteem, so you think that they're the only ones-

Africa Brooke 22:21 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 22:21 ... that can give it back, but they're hurting you even more.

Africa Brooke 22:23 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 22:23 I see that a lot in my DMs.

Africa Brooke 22:24 Right.

Steven Bartlett 22:24 Or it can be other. What advice would you give to someone to try and break out of that, um, that negatively reinforcing self-esteem cycle?

Africa Brooke 22:33 Hmm. I think one of the things, I think questions are always the best place to start. I always like to think of self-sabotage and self-destruction as self-protection. You're actually protecting yourself from something. And, and a lot of it is unconscious. You're not consciously deciding to get in your own way. You're not consciously deciding to stay in chaos and drama because you just absolutely love it. Maybe for some people that might be the case, but for most of us, it's entirely unconscious. But I think getting clear on what the benefits are, because you're getting some kind of reward from it, right? Because if you don't think that you're worthy, if you don't think that you're lovable, that's always going to be the belief that you feed every single time. It's some kind of confirmation. It's like a, "See? I, I... See? I said that I wasn't unlovable. That's why I choose someone who shouts at me. That's why I choose someone who manipulates me. That's why I choose someone who cheats on me over and over again. That's why I choose someone who shames me," or whatever the details might be. So I think there's always some kind of reward that we're getting from that situation, and I think it can be a very... Sounds quite abstract, but I think it can be an important question to ask yourself, "What am I... What reward am I actually getting from this? And is this going to be worth it in the long term?" And all of this, to me, it kind of sounds like shifting your identity and what you're used to, and allowing yourself to get used to things that might not be familiar yet. I think you also have to understand that when you're breaking some kind of cycle, it's going to be uncomfortable. That's why I'm a huge advocate for discomfort, because I think a lot of us, when we change a pattern-... the moment we feel uncomfortable, even though it's good for us, the moment we feel uncomfortable, we pull the plug. And we often pull the plug so prematurely. So I think one of the things that I would suggest, and I say this to my clients and anyone that I speak to, allow yourself to be in that discomfort because a lot of the time it's where you currently are with your identity and the identity that you're trying to step into, someone who is mo- more lovable, for example. But that middle part is going to be quite uncomfortable. And you just have to stay there while things sort of reconfigure.

Steven Bartlett 24:47 Is that like because you're contending against two counter narratives-

Africa Brooke 24:50 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 24:50 ... or counter stories?

Africa Brooke 24:51 Yes, yes.

Steven Bartlett 24:52 And it takes time to believe a new story.

Africa Brooke 24:54 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:54 So you kind of have to sit in maybe a feeling of im- feeling like a bit of an imposter.

Africa Brooke 24:59 Yes. Yes.

Steven Bartlett 24:59 Or, you know what I mean? It's almost like there's evidence. Bit, right, at the end of the day all these stories are backed by either true or false but it's subjective evidence-

Africa Brooke 25:06 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 25:06 ... of who you are and what the world thinks of me and what I'm capable of, so-

Africa Brooke 25:09 That's it.

Steven Bartlett 25:10 ... re-writing new evidence is not an easy or a quick-

Africa Brooke 25:12 No. No, and it's not supposed to be because I think, um, I think we also have this idea that it's supposed to be easy, you

Africa Brooke 25:21 know, that kind of once you make a decision and you decide that you're going to do it, that it should just work. And if it doesn't, if it's uncomfortable that means it's wrong, that means you should pull the plug. That's not, that's not always the case.

Steven Bartlett 25:33 What do you, what do you still self-sabotage with, or how do you still self sabotage?

Africa Brooke 25:42 Oh, that's it. You know what it is for me? Romantic relationships.

Steven Bartlett 25:45 Interesting.

Africa Brooke 25:46 And it always helps me when I'm very honest about the fact that this is an area where I still have self-sabotaging tendencies. So what that looks like is (smacks lips) feeling when someone is trying to get close to me, I will immediately start to feel suffocated. I'll start to feel like I need to find something wrong with you so that you don't get too close, even if I want you to get close. But it's because there's a, a part of me doesn't want to be vulnerable because vol- vulnerability in that area means being exposed, it means being raw.

Steven Bartlett 26:27 Exposed to what?

Africa Brooke 26:28 Exposed-

Steven Bartlett 26:30 Vulnerable to what?

Africa Brooke 26:33 You know what I think it is? I think it's a, to put it very simply, I think it's, it's a feeling of if you really get to know me, you might abandon me. And I think this is not something that's even, you know, on a conscious level because I have a strong sense of self, I know who I am, et cetera, et cetera. But I think there is still those sort of traces from childhood, from everything that I've experienced in my life that are, those remnants of that, that have that voice that say, "If I really let you in, and you actually get to know me, you might abandon me. So what I need to do, I need to find a way to get in there first and abandon you before you abandon me." So that might look like, as I said, once the person is starting to kind of get close, I will feel suffocated, I'll feel like, "Okay, it's getting too much. I need my own space." Okay, "What's, what's wrong with you?"

Steven Bartlett 27:27 Danger.

Africa Brooke 27:28 Yeah-huh. Danger. Um-

Steven Bartlett 27:30 Where did you learn that model that a romantic relationship might be danger?

Africa Brooke 27:34 Oh, gosh. I mean, take a guess. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 27:37 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 27:37 Take a guess.

Steven Bartlett 27:38 Mm-hmm.

Africa Brooke 27:38 The, the first relationship that I ever saw, a man and a woman, a couple being together, was my mother and my father, and that's the model in which I had to kind of build my own idea of romantic love and what relationships look like. So I've never wanted to get too close. And I, I could never have said this to you before, I didn't have language for it, but when I looked at the patterns from relationship to relationship, I always saw that they had a timeline as well, never going anywhere beyond the one-year mark, always feeling like, "Okay, that's enough. We've done our time. Let's, let's, uh, really..." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 28:18 Keep it moving. (laughs)

Africa Brooke 28:18 Yeah. Yeah, so I think, um, romantic relationships is one, and I also had one in terms of money and this one I really had to nip it in the bud when I started my consulting firm five years ago. I used to sabotage any opportunity to potentially make more money than my mum, so my mum is a nurse. So when I started sharing my sobriety story and I started realizing that I'm actually very good at what I do in terms of speaking, in terms of supporting people, I'm a very curious person, and I do have a powerful story, a powerful story that allows me to reach so many different types of people, so it gained a lot of traction quite early on in 2016, 2017. So I would start getting speaking opportunities. In the beginning everything was sort of free and I was okay with that, never had to negotiate things around money. Money was not something that was spoken about in my family growing up. I don't know what it was like for you but the only time that money conversations were really had, um, was through arguments. You would only hear money spoken about where there wasn't enough money, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I always had so many different money stories. Money's very hard to come by, money doesn't grow on trees, you have to work hard for money, um, so many ideas about rich people, rich people are bad, rich people are this, and no one in my family explicitly said that but I think culturally it was sort of just a thing. People don't have to explicitly say it. Culturally we all know what the stories are. So when I would hear or get emails saying, "Africa, we'd love for you to speak at this thing, it's just half an hour. What is your rate? We're offering 3K," um, I would just experience so much discomfort knowing that my mum is working so many hours as a nurse on her feet and she's probably making half of that or just about that.So what I would do, and this was not a conscious thing until I started looking at my money story, I would let those emails sit. Any email that was saying I would be getting paid, I would let those emails sit until it was too late. They've probably offered someone else. Because I just felt so uncomfortable making money so easily. So I would sabotage any opportunity to get paid, but if it was free, I will reply straightaway, "I'll do it." But when you're in business, that doesn't fucking work. It doesn't work. But even outside of that, I- I was shown that because I was incapable of receiving when it came to money, I was incapable of receiving in so many areas. I was incapable of receiving love fully, because when I did, I would shut down because a part of me thinks I don't deserve it. I was incapable of receiving opportunities because I'd feel like, "This has happened way too ea- easily. I'm supposed to... It's supposed to be hard, but this is so easy." So I would be suspicious of it and sabotage it. So those are the two main areas that I've really had to do some work on over the past years.

Steven Bartlett 31:24 On the first point-

Africa Brooke 31:25 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 31:26 ... um, you were very much preaching to the choir there, as I've talked about quite a few times on this podcast. Why do I see relationships as like a bird trapped in a cage or- or someone trapped in jail? Well, I go, "Well, that's what my father was. My father was trapped." My father my whole life, I- I was convinced he was trapped. That was my first model of what a romantic relationship was.

Africa Brooke 31:43 Right.

Steven Bartlett 31:43 So of course it was the most, um, most evidence-backed.

Africa Brooke 31:47 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 31:48 And so, you gotta... It's similar to what we were talking about earlier about like stepping into a new story.

Africa Brooke 31:53 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 31:53 And although every part of your being is going, "This is bad. You gotta stay."

Africa Brooke 31:57 You do.

Steven Bartlett 31:58 You c- communicate with, in this case the person, say, "By the way, this- this happened, so-"

Africa Brooke 32:02 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 32:03 "... I struggle."

Africa Brooke 32:04 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 32:04 Um, and hopefully build new evidence.

Africa Brooke 32:07 I love that.

Steven Bartlett 32:07 And the right person can help you build new evidence.

Africa Brooke 32:09 I agree.

Steven Bartlett 32:11 Which is what my girlfriend helped me to do. She helped me to build, without... by just being herself and not being a prison guard.

Africa Brooke 32:17 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 32:18 She created new evidence, and that new evidence is s- strong. It's not... The old evidence is still there.

Africa Brooke 32:24 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 32:25 I don't actually think the old evidence will ever go.

Africa Brooke 32:27 Oh, I love that you say that, Steven. I really do, because I think it's again this idea that it has to go completely-

Steven Bartlett 32:34 Oh gosh.

Africa Brooke 32:34 ... before we step into the other one. And I think that's what holds people back from fully stepping into their new identity because they think, "If I'm really supposed to be here, and this is actually real, and I have all of this new evidence, that's not supposed to be there at all." And I think, again, those multiple truths, they can co-exist. It's just what you choose to feed over and over again.

Steven Bartlett 32:59 Yeah, and you- you- and if you think of spiders, like, I'm not scared of spiders, but there's a part of me that goes... (laughs) Do you know what I mean?

Africa Brooke 33:06 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 33:06 'Cause there's a lot of evidence.

Africa Brooke 33:08 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 33:08 'Cause I've seen other people running away from them. I've seen films.

Africa Brooke 33:11 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 33:11 But I'm not s- I- I know it like objectively. I've got enough evidence to say that the spiders, they don't even bite.

Africa Brooke 33:15 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 33:15 You know, no one's dying of spiders really. But I'm still... There's still a little bit of evidence-

Africa Brooke 33:20 Something is there.

Steven Bartlett 33:20 ... that says, "Be careful." You know? And I can exist with those two truths as you- as you describe it.

Africa Brooke 33:24 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 33:25 You're totally right though in the sense that people expect them... that they will get to a place where they are healed and cured completely.

Africa Brooke 33:33 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 33:33 And I- I just have never seen it.

Africa Brooke 33:35 Me neither. Me neither.

Steven Bartlett 33:36 I've never seen it.

Africa Brooke 33:37 Ever. And I think we have a current culture actually. So I'm, um, I'm a coach and consultant and speaker, et cetera, who's in the realm of self-help, but despises the self-help industry for a multitude of reasons, because I think it perpetuates that idea, that idea of healing-

Steven Bartlett 33:57 Mm-hmm.

Africa Brooke 33:57 ... as if it's a destination.

Steven Bartlett 33:58 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 33:59 You know, you sign up for this course, get this book, listen to this podcast, and then it's- it's done. Then you're healed. So I think there's a lot of people that are in a very good place if you were to look at it in a very holistic way, but continuously believe that they have to rid themselves of these very human things and this, you know, inevitable human discomfort that we all experience, and they put labels on it to make it, you know, mean like it's this... Um, so yeah, I think there's a cul- there is a culture right now where people are on this continuous journey of healing when actually some of these things won't actually go away completely, and that's fine. That's normal.

Steven Bartlett 34:40 That's an interesting thing because there are some people out there as well, I want to get your take on this-

Africa Brooke 34:44 Sure.

Steven Bartlett 34:44 ... that have basically made healing their identity.

Africa Brooke 34:46 Uh-huh. (laughs) Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:47 It's their personal brand.

Africa Brooke 34:48 Yes. (laughs) Yes.

Steven Bartlett 34:48 It's their safe space. Being broken and healing is their... It's who they are.

Africa Brooke 34:52 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:52 And they've embraced that. Is that harmful and dangerous in your view?

Africa Brooke 34:55 Absolutely. I think it is. I think it is because it's... it again perpetuates another idea which ties into this, that we need to be on this pursuit of constantly fixing something, you know. Um, and I think I've also seen people do that in the, as you say it as a brand, but people making it, yeah, making it the actual business, their public persona, "This is who I am," and I think it encourages other people or makes other people feel that they need to do the same thing, or that they need to sort of make their pain their identity as well. You also see this with people, um, who are contrarian just for the sake of being contrarian.

Steven Bartlett 35:40 Yeah. (laughs)

Africa Brooke 35:40 Right? I think that's why you... (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 35:42 Yeah, yeah, yeah. They just have to disagree then with everything.

Africa Brooke 35:44 They just have to disagree with-

Steven Bartlett 35:46 No new ones. (laughs)

Africa Brooke 35:48 (laughs) No. No new ones. And they usually... That's why when I talk about, um, you know, this kind of seemingly battle between the woke versus anti-woke, I always see that essentially they're quite the same. They're exactly the same. You will have the people that are, for example, anti-woke, want to be contrarian for the sake of it, you know, screaming about how woke everyone has got. If people are, let's say, talking about being inclusive, they'll just label that as woke. It's the exact same behavior as they claim to oppose, which I find very interesting, how people can be so...... loud about something and be so convicted and be wanting to point out a specific type of behavior, not realizing that they're behaving in the exact same way. But I think it is part of that performance, where people are being rewarded because they're performing in a very specific way. And they see that, "Okay. If I perform in this way, I'm going to get likes. I'm going to get opportunities. I get to, to sort of feel..." It really feeds the ego as well, when you have your echo chamber and you have people that say yes to everything. You have people that see you as some sort of, um, leader. But I think it's building some very interesting characters, online especially.

Steven Bartlett 37:00 I wonder if both extremes, so the far left and the far right-

Africa Brooke 37:04 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 37:04 ... I wonder if they're just both low self-esteem.

Africa Brooke 37:06 Yes. Yes.

Steven Bartlett 37:06 Because they're the ones that seem to need the, the reinforcement-

Africa Brooke 37:10 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 37:11 ... so, "I will be militant about these views because by being further over here, I'm getting more people that are clapping for me."

Africa Brooke 37:16 Yes. Yes.

Steven Bartlett 37:16 You know? Whereas nuance seems to be a place where you don't care mu- as, as much about the clapping.

Africa Brooke 37:21 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 37:22 You're not really doing it for the clap. You're doing it for- i- in my view, more for truth.

Africa Brooke 37:25 Yes. Yes.

Steven Bartlett 37:26 You know?

Africa Brooke 37:27 I, I see that a lot. And have you found, um... Would you say... I think from listening to everything you've said, I, I kind of have an idea of what this would look like for you. But would you say that you're more in that nuance? Would you say you've always been more in the middle or have you ever found yourself on either side?

Steven Bartlett 37:44 I used to think I was over on the left.

Africa Brooke 37:46 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 37:46 Now, I th- I think I'm somewhere in the middle.

Africa Brooke 37:48 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 37:49 So, um, I can't... What you described earlier as, like, an intolerance of ideas-

Africa Brooke 37:54 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 37:54 ... it's, you know... And both si- bo- both s- extreme sides, so the far left and the far right are both just really intolerant.

Africa Brooke 38:01 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 38:01 And I... And they're not willing to have a conversation with anybody. So, I find myself being pushed more towards the center point, where I find people like me, people like you-

Africa Brooke 38:11 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 38:11 ... I think. I, I don't know what, where you consider yourself to be-

Africa Brooke 38:13 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 38:13 ... on the spectrum.

Africa Brooke 38:14 The, the exact same. I d- you know what? I don't think I've ever, um, even used language like, "I'm on the left"-

Steven Bartlett 38:24 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 38:24 ... or anything like that. And maybe there's something about being an immigrant, because when I speak to immigrants and people that are not from this country, I think we have a different relationship with politics in general. You will never really hear most people-

Steven Bartlett 38:36 Yeah. Yeah.

Africa Brooke 38:37 ... um, saying they're on the left or they're on the right.

Steven Bartlett 38:39 Mm-hmm.

Africa Brooke 38:39 I think i- it won't really happen. Most people are... The majority of people really are in that center, in that middle ground. I would say, if you were to look at my values and what I stand for objectively, yes, I'm a left-leaning person. But I don't make that my identity. I don't look at everything on that side and say, "Okay. Check, check, check. I agree with that." Everything is context dependent. And there are many things that I agree with from different sides, because I just look at, what is the context? What are we talking about? Does this make sense to me? Is this applicable in real life? Um, so that's the sort of process that I take myself through. And it's neither left or right. It's very much in the middle, like everyone, like the majority of people.

Steven Bartlett 39:22 Yeah, I think the majority of people probably are. But it, but it... I think, especially in this day and age, it takes... It's much a- probably easier, 'cause you get to fit in if you're on either side.

Africa Brooke 39:31 Yeah. Yes.

Steven Bartlett 39:31 There's no club in the middle.

Africa Brooke 39:33 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 39:33 There's no... You know what I mean? There's no uniform-

Africa Brooke 39:35 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:35 ... in the middle, so you don't, you don't... Those that might wanna fit in and be reinforced by, um, a group aren't gonna find that in the middle ground.

Africa Brooke 39:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:43 So, pick a side. Do you know? Do you see what I mean? It's like-

Africa Brooke 39:45 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:45 ... it's a club. They have, you know, a uniform. They have stickers. They have, like-

Africa Brooke 39:49 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:49 ... a schedule. They have a, a doctrine.

Africa Brooke 39:51 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 39:51 They have Ten Commandments.

Africa Brooke 39:52 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:53 This is why people join cults, isn't it? (laughs)

Africa Brooke 39:54 It's true. And you know what? Um, speaking of cults, when I wrote (laughs) -

Steven Bartlett 39:59 (laughs)

Africa Brooke 39:59 ... when I wrote my open letter, um, Why I'm Leaving the Cult of Wokeness, I was really trying to have this conversation. Because essentially, I, I was speaking about what we're talking about now, an invitation into that middle ground where most people are, inviting people to acknowledge nuance and context, to really realize that Black people, for example, we don't all think the same. We have very different experiences. Um, we have very different opinions. We have very different beliefs, worldviews. Most people, um, that identify as being on the left would not have that conversation with me. It's only just starting to happen now. The only people that would be willing to have those conversations with me would be people that would be seen as being on the right. And I found that very interesting, that, you know, when you look at being a leftist, it is about being tolerant. It is about, um... Well, I guess that would be... What would, what would that be? Would it be classic liberalism, if you were to-

Steven Bartlett 41:01 I guess so.

Africa Brooke 41:01 I guess so, right?

Steven Bartlett 41:02 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 41:02 Um, but even that approach is seen as right-wing now. So, I understand why a lot of people-

Steven Bartlett 41:08 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 41:08 ... really are, are getting-

Steven Bartlett 41:09 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 41:09 ... pushed out of the left and more into the center. Because most people would not have that conversation with me, because the moment you critique something from the left, you're labeled as being on the right, which is just the most absurd thing I, I have ever heard.

Steven Bartlett 41:26 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 41:26 Um, but I think now, two years on, things are starting to shift a little bit more. I think people have stopped being so fearful of what is known as cancel culture, even though I prefer to call it collective sabotage, because I think that's a much more accurate term for it. I think people are being less afraid now to ask questions, to be like, "Actually, let's, let's hear what this view actually is. We don't have to agree with it, but we can at least acknowledge that it exists." But I think people that are on the right, from my own experience, especially if we're talking about media, et cetera, have been more willing to have these conversations and to have more debates and to honor that gray more than the left.

Steven Bartlett 42:09 I've... You know, I've probably had thousands of tweets from people telling me that I cannot speak to that person on my podcast, right?

Africa Brooke 42:15 (sighs)

Steven Bartlett 42:15 Thousands of tweets.

Africa Brooke 42:16 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 42:16 And I promise you, I've never had those tweets from someone on the right.

Africa Brooke 42:21 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:21 No matter which guest I get on or what they believe, no one from the right has said, "Steve, you cannot platform that person."

Africa Brooke 42:26 Right.

Steven Bartlett 42:27 It's never happened.So and that- that again, you're- you're not help- you're- you're- you're- you're basically going to punish me if I don't, um, say, think, and have conversations-

Africa Brooke 42:38 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 42:38 ... that are in line with your doctrine.

Africa Brooke 42:39 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:39 And for me, that for me has been alienating. And this is why I- I now consider myself-

Africa Brooke 42:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:43 ... to be more in the middle because I don't agree with that intolerance.

Africa Brooke 42:46 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 42:46 I think I should be able to have a conversation with anyone, including Donald Trump.

Africa Brooke 42:51 Right.

Steven Bartlett 42:51 I- I- I hope I never get to the point where I would not be willing to have a conversation.

Africa Brooke 42:55 Conversation.

Steven Bartlett 42:55 Do you know what I mean?

Africa Brooke 42:56 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:56 That's a, that's a, that reminds me of like the, I don't know, 18th century. I know nothing about history so I just named an old century.

Africa Brooke 43:02 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 43:02 It reminds me of the 18th century when they used to like burn books because they-

Africa Brooke 43:05 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 43:05 ... didn't even want people to hear stuff.

Africa Brooke 43:06 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 43:07 And-

Africa Brooke 43:08 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 43:08 Anyway,

Steven Bartlett 43:09 speaking of controversial topics-

Africa Brooke 43:11 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 43:11 ... one of the things that's become surprisingly controversial over the last couple of years is, and probably for a- a little while longer, um, since the 17th century, um, is this idea of accountability, which to me seems like much of the antidote to self sabotage is like taking-

Africa Brooke 43:27 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 43:27 ... personal responsibility for your life and your situation. I've heard you talk about this. I actually think this was the first, the first, one of your first videos that caught my attention was you talking about taking responsibility in a really-

Africa Brooke 43:39 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 43:39 ... you know, a- a fairly direct way. So tell me how taking responsibil- what that means to you, but how-

Africa Brooke 43:45 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 43:45 ... that helped you to rise out of that phase you had from 14 to 24.

Africa Brooke 43:48 Yeah. Oh, it was huge. It was huge. And it had to be one of the first things that I did. Actually, as I, as I think about this and sort of speak out loud, I think what allowed me to get and stay sober that eighth and final time was taking personal responsibility. I think all of the other times, I had wanted to place blame on a lot of things outside of me. So my dad would have been the easiest person because he was an alcoholic, and because of his abuse and because of everything we experienced and because of the instability, because of coming to a new country, moving to a part of the UK where just me, my sister, and Curtis are the only Black kids, the adversity I experienced from that. So I think there were so many ways that I could externalize, right? But I think the moment that I was able to say, "Okay, well, Africa, what part did you have to play in this? So you've experienced all of this adversity. What now? What fucking now? No one else can do it for you." And I think that helped me so much. And another thing that I had to do, which is a part of that responsibility and accountability, was making amends. So people that have followed the 12-step program, for example, will know that making amends is a huge part of it. I didn't follow the 12-step pro- program. I-

Steven Bartlett 45:07 What's the 12-step program?

Africa Brooke 45:08 So 12-step is AA, essentially Alcoholics Anonymous. You go through a process, a 12-step process, of accountability essentially. And one of those steps is making amends, reaching out to the people that you've harmed and making amends. And that's what I had to do. And I- I really did that. And there was a lot of shame, there was a lot of guilt. There were a lot of people that didn't want to hear it. But there were a lot of people that were very grateful that even after all of these years, I'm coming to them and acknowledging something that I did or played a part in. And only then could I actually move forward with my sobriety knowing that I am responsible. Yes, I've experienced s- a lot of adversity. But I am the one that gets to decide what now. So fast forward to finding ourselves in a culture where even just conversations around personal responsibility are, have been politicized 'cause I've noticed they're labeled as right wing.

Steven Bartlett 46:06 Yeah. (laughs)

Africa Brooke 46:07 The moment you... Isn't that weird?

Steven Bartlett 46:08 It's mad.

Africa Brooke 46:09 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 46:10 It's mad.

Africa Brooke 46:11 Isn't that crazy?

Steven Bartlett 46:12 That's crazy.

Africa Brooke 46:12 The moment you say you do realize there is a lot in your life that you can control, you're called a bigot. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 46:20 La, la, la, la, la, la, la. No, I fucking... I'm a, I'm a puppet and I'm a victim.

Africa Brooke 46:26 (laughs) And it's-

Steven Bartlett 46:26 And there's nothing I can control.

Africa Brooke 46:28 It's...

Steven Bartlett 46:28 And it's that political party that did this.

Africa Brooke 46:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 46:30 Okay? So just...

Africa Brooke 46:31 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 46:34 (laughs)

Africa Brooke 46:34 And that, that-

Steven Bartlett 46:36 Unfollow, la, la, la, la, la, la.

Africa Brooke 46:37 ... is unfollowed.

Steven Bartlett 46:37 La, la, la, la, la.

Africa Brooke 46:37 Unfollowed. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 46:38 Yeah. It's fucking crazy.

Africa Brooke 46:40 It's mad. And I think I've, I speak to my family and my friends about all of these things quite a lot actually. And because I'm still very much in touch with everyone back home in Zimbabwe, and because I have that perspective, when I compare to that part of the world to the Western world, it, this just seems like a completely different world, like some kind of show. It- it can't be real that people can get upset to know that there are things in your life that you can control. Yes, you might have experienced X, Y, and Z, but you are responsible for how you move forward. Yes, there might be other components. Maybe it is the system, maybe it is your familial environment, whatever the details might be, but there are also things within your control. The fact that people can label that as being bigoted the moment you s- I, I just-

Steven Bartlett 47:34 Wouldn't you want that to be the case?

Africa Brooke 47:35 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 47:35 Wouldn't you want to have things that you can control? The thought of being powerless-

Africa Brooke 47:39 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 47:39 ... to my circumstances is the most terrifying thing in the world. You know?

Africa Brooke 47:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 47:44 Being- being a, being a, being... That's why I refer to it as a puppet that someone else is pulling these strings.

Africa Brooke 47:49 Right.

Steven Bartlett 47:49 And that I have no, I'm powerless to my situation. So I think it's, I find it empowering and liberating to say, "Do you know what? There is a lot of things I can control."

Africa Brooke 47:56 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 47:56 "Yes, I'm- I'm broke, or yes, I'm in this situation, but there are, there's something that I can do."

Africa Brooke 48:00 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 48:00 And I- I have to also express the nuance that you did, which is there are a lot of people that are, um, that are disabled.

Africa Brooke 48:06 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 48:06 There are a lot of people that have found themselves in horrifically unfortunate circumstances through no fault of their own.

Africa Brooke 48:13 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 48:13 But I find it really important for my sanity of mind and my optimism for the future to know that there is something, often there is something that I can do to change my situation.

Africa Brooke 48:23 Absolutely.

Steven Bartlett 48:24 That's a controversial idea.

Africa Brooke 48:26 Imagine that.

Steven Bartlett 48:27 Which is much. (laughs)

Africa Brooke 48:27 Would you have thought that?

Steven Bartlett 48:27 I can hear the people typing out at you.

Africa Brooke 48:29 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 48:30 (laughs)

Africa Brooke 48:31 Easy for you to say. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 48:32 Easy for you fucking... Yeah. Rich motherfucker with his cars.

Africa Brooke 48:34 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 48:35 Ugh.

Africa Brooke 48:35 What- what- what- what is it, though? Do you- do you think you know what that is?

Steven Bartlett 48:39 Yeah, 'cause it holds a mirror up to you. It makes you feel like, for some people, and I think it was for me at some point as well, holding that mirror up and saying, "Do you know what? I might have had a part to play in this, and I'm actually... I ha- I can have a part in getting out of the situation," for some people, is an evidence of their inadequacy-

Africa Brooke 48:57 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 48:57 ... that they just don't have the self-esteem to confront. So it's easier to blame. Blame is a nice sh- a nice shield. It's a-

Africa Brooke 49:03 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 49:03 ... nice way to deflect the attack against my already fragile self-esteem. I would do that, of course, when I was younger, and someone might point out something. Blame was a way for you not to hit me in the self-esteem. It was a way of saying, "No, no, no, no, no, that's not because I'm inadequate or because I'm not capable-

Africa Brooke 49:17 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:17 ... or I'm not smart, or because I'm not working hard, it's because of this other thing. And so leave me alone, Africa." Block.

Africa Brooke 49:25 Hmm. Yes. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 49:26 (laughs) It's like... Do you know what I mean?

Africa Brooke 49:27 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 49:28 That's- that's my analysis of it often is it's, for some people, it's- it's look, it's, uh, it feels like evidence of their inadequacy.

Africa Brooke 49:36 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 49:37 And why would- would someone not like that? Well, because it makes you feel like shit.

Africa Brooke 49:41 Yeah. And I- I think because we're also being encouraged, I, especially the younger generation who I really now more than ever want to make more of an effort to really speak directly to them, is because I think we're- we're sort of training each other to not prioritize emotional resilience. Because along with personal responsibility, resilience is also another controversial word.

Steven Bartlett 50:07 Yes, it is.

Africa Brooke 50:07 You know, this- this idea that you can build a strong foundation within yourself that even if something happens externally outside of you, you are able to deal with it. You don't have to go into that deep, dark place and think, "That is it. Full stop." So I think because most people are not emotionally resilient and are not nurturing and sort of cultivating that within themselves, it continues that cycle where you just end up in perpetual victimhood. And then we are in a culture that rewards victims. You know? And I- I think self-correction there actually, and I want to make this very clear, that there is a very real difference between being a victim, someone who has genuinely been victimized, and making victimhood an identity. There's a, there's a huge difference between the two. But I think when you start to make victimhood an identity for anything and everything, that's when it might be time to actually hold a mirror up to yourself.

Steven Bartlett 51:05 On that word resilience-

Africa Brooke 51:06 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 51:06 ... I think the reason why resilience is, in part at least, why it's a controversial topic-

Africa Brooke 51:11 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 51:11 ... is because it kinda starts to merge into the lane of, like, mental health.

Africa Brooke 51:17 Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 51:17 And resilient, people when they think of resilience, they think of, like, shut up and deal with it.

Africa Brooke 51:21 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 51:22 You know what I mean?

Africa Brooke 51:22 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 51:23 And then that- that acts as, in conflict to the narrative of, like, express yourself, feel your emotions.

Africa Brooke 51:29 Yes. Yes.

Steven Bartlett 51:29 It's okay to be not okay.

Africa Brooke 51:31 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 51:31 So te- talk to me about the distinction you make between those two things-

Africa Brooke 51:34 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 51:34 ... and your relationship with both.

Africa Brooke 51:36 You know what? I guess this is where I would bring it back round to holding those multiple truths. Because why do we think that we have to choose between one or the other? Why can't you be both emotionally resilient as a individual, as a being, and allow yourself to express yourself, and allow yourself to be vulnerable, and allow yourself to have those real low moments that we all do? And I think both can co-exist. It's really not one or the other.

Steven Bartlett 52:01 So what is the opposite of resilience, then?

Africa Brooke 52:05 Hmm. The word weakness comes to mind, but I don't know if that's accurate. I don't know if that's accurate to what... I'm not sure. But it's interesting because the word weakness comes to mind. And maybe a part of me, or even for someone listening, we- we think associating the word weak to yourself means there's something wrong with you-

Steven Bartlett 52:36 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 52:36 ... that it's a bad word. I think there's this idea that it's- it's bad to be weak, or it's not acceptable to be weak, but I think we all have moments of weakness. But I don't know if that would be the opposite of- of resilience. What do you think?

Steven Bartlett 52:51 Um, so if we're talking about emotional resilience-

Africa Brooke 52:53 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 52:53 ... maybe the opposite is emotional maybe fragility?

Africa Brooke 52:58 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 52:59 Maybe. I don't know. Um...

Africa Brooke 53:00 It's something within that realm, right?

Steven Bartlett 53:02 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 53:03 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 53:03 And the reason I- I'm basically playing devil's advocate with myself to see if, to see if it is two truths bec- or if what we were describing earlier about being expressive and being in touch with your emotions-

Africa Brooke 53:14 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 53:14 ... is that being emotionally fragile?

Africa Brooke 53:16 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 53:16 Or is that something else?

Africa Brooke 53:17 I wonder if, another word that's coming to mind, f- for some reason, soft. I think it's both possible to be soft and whatever you would consider hard. Because just in very simple language, when I hear the word resilience, you have to be hard. There's something sort of, it's not necessarily stoic, but- but it's- it's sort of that kind of language, where you're really fully grounded in yourself, your back is straight, you're internally up, you know? Whereas the other side of that is maybe, maybe there is an element of fragility, which is fine. I don't, I don't think it's a bad thing, allowing yourself to be soft, allowing yourself to be, um, to not be as strong all of the time. So I- I think-

Steven Bartlett 53:58 It's interesting, isn't it? 'Cause on one hand, you're saying be resilient, but then also be the opposite of resilience, whatever that is.

Africa Brooke 54:04 Yes. Yeah. But it can, you can be both.

Steven Bartlett 54:07 Con- there can also be context, right?

Africa Brooke 54:09 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:09 It can be context-specific behavior.

Africa Brooke 54:11 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 54:11 So you can be resilient in the sense that when someone, um, pelts abuse at you in your Instagram DMs-

Africa Brooke 54:17 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:17 ... you have the resilience to not internalize that, not let it, um, destroy your day or your mood, and to move on.

Africa Brooke 54:24 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 54:24 But then you can be, I guess, emotionally, you- you know, then your dog might die. I've got a lovely dog running around somewhere here.

Africa Brooke 54:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:30 Um, my dog might die. And that is real cause for emotional expression-

Africa Brooke 54:34 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:34 ... and to be emotionally...... to be soft and to be-

Africa Brooke 54:37 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 54:37 ... um, open and to feel.

Africa Brooke 54:39 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 54:40 So maybe it's context-specific behavior.

Africa Brooke 54:42 Yes, I think so. I think so. But again, I, I think they can both co-exist.

Steven Bartlett 54:47 How did you get to this place of self-awareness? Because, you know, (sighs) um, I, I, you know, we all know people who are repeating cycles.

Africa Brooke 54:57 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:57 And they have no ... Either they're taking no responsibility for it, or they just don't know that they're doing it.

Africa Brooke 55:02 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 55:02 And sometimes, as friends, and this is, again, we're, this is us looking in on the situation as if we know what's best for them.

Africa Brooke 55:07 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 55:07 So there's an error there. But we loo- we, we see friends, family going through cycles, and they don't know what they're doing and they don't, they don't understand themselves enough-

Africa Brooke 55:16 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 55:16 ... to the point where you are today, where you clearly, um, you exhibit a high self-awareness and understanding of yourself, your past, your behavior-

Africa Brooke 55:23 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 55:23 ... and the causes of it. Um, one of my favorite quotes that I've ever written, which is based on, based on a friend I had, was, um, "You can read as many books as you like, but if you can't read yourself, you'll never truly learn a thing."

Africa Brooke 55:33 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 55:33 But you can also say, "You can read as many books as you like, but if you can't read yourself, you'll never make progress."

Africa Brooke 55:38 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 55:38 Because you can have the information, but implementing it requires understanding the being in which-

Africa Brooke 55:45 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 55:45 ... you're implementing that too. So, how did you become so apparently self-aware?

Africa Brooke 55:49 Mm-hmm. You know what? I think ... I've always loved to read. I've always loved to read and to, to hear other people's stories and to hear other people's thoughts. So one of the first people that I discovered, um, the eighth time that I got sober was Carl Jung. (smacks lips) So he's an incredible psychotherapist who explores shadow work and, you know, our shadow self, et cetera. And I think through his work and then finding many other teachers, many other mentors along the way, um, just through books mainly, books and self-study, I was able to finally have language for the things that I was experiencing internally. So I think it helped that I did have that foundation of already being quite a self-aware person, but now having language for my behavior. And I think just through different practices, even reading something about why, you know, lying to yourself is a form of self-betrayal, it meant that every time that I was in a situation and I could feel myself about to lie, I would kind of challenge myself to not and to just say something different or to just say what I actually mean. So I think it's been a combination of self-study, um, reading, tuning into the self-awareness I already had, but using it in just a different way, and actually stepping into the arena and practicing. So I think that, that has helped me kind of develop my sense of self over time.

Steven Bartlett 57:15 What about writing?

Africa Brooke 57:17 And writing. Writing has always helped. But you know what's interesting? I found, especially in those 10 years, I would write in my journal as if someone was going to read it. So I would lie.

Steven Bartlett 57:30 What were you lying about in your diary?

Africa Brooke 57:33 Ooh, that's a good question. I was lying about how I really felt about my relationship. So I was writing as if my boyfriend at the time would read it. Um, so I wasn't being completely honest about how unhappy I was. I wasn't being honest about cheating in our relationship when I was drunk. Um, I wasn't being honest about my relationship with alcohol. I wasn't being honest about how I really felt about one particular family member who I really wanted to heal things with. Um, but it felt weird because we, we didn't speak about emotional things in my family. So there was a lot of resistance around mending, mending that relationship, even though I knew exactly what I needed to do. Um-

Steven Bartlett 58:25 Why do you speak of that in past tense?

Africa Brooke 58:28 Which part?

Steven Bartlett 58:29 About that family member, mending it. You speak of it as if it's past tense.

Africa Brooke 58:32 What exactly did I say?

Steven Bartlett 58:34 Just, um, you're referring to it as if you haven't mended it.

Africa Brooke 58:37 I haven't.

Steven Bartlett 58:38 Right.

Africa Brooke 58:39 I haven't. And I wrote that entry. It's in the journal that I found the other day. Thank you for pointing that out. Um, I haven't. It's been seven years since I wrote that. So maybe now I'm gonna-

Steven Bartlett 58:52 It's bothering you.

Africa Brooke 58:52 ... I'm gonna have to do it.

Steven Bartlett 58:53 I can see it in your face.

Africa Brooke 58:54 Really?

Steven Bartlett 58:54 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 58:56 It does. It does. She was on that list of amends that I had to make back in 2016. And I made amends with everyone on that list apart from her, and I see her quite often. And there'll be times where I feel like I want to say something, because there's not even anything specific that happened. It's just the way that I was behaving at the time that I was in the height of my, of my destruction. And she had just moved from Zimbabwe to here, and I was always her favorite cousin. And we were so close, and she was so excited to see me and to see me after all of these years. And when she came, she didn't meet the me that she remembered, and I noticed that very early on. And now we're much older, it's seven years later, I can still see that there's a part of her that feels hurt in some way, and I know that there's something that I can do and say to sort of break that. But I just, there's a lot of resistance around it, because in my family, there are just certain conversations we don't have. But I've been starting to have those conversations with some family members, but she's just the one person that I haven't done it with yet.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:26 Why?

Africa Brooke 1:00:33 I think there's almost a fear of the unknown.... of what our relationship will look like beyond this. And I know it can sound mad, because someone listening to this might think, "Just have the conversation." I'm a huge advocate for conversations that are uncomfortable. But when it comes to this, for whatever reason, there's a fear of the unknown, even though I know that the unknown is going to be potentially a stronger relationship. So you could say there's always a, an element of self-sabotage when it comes to this, but it's a fear of some kind of unknown around that. Any advice?

Steven Bartlett 1:01:12 Well, I, I, I, I mean, I struggle with the same thing, so let's not pretend that I am perfect in this arena.

Africa Brooke 1:01:18 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:18 But what some of the advice that sometimes helps reframe the decision is-

Africa Brooke 1:01:22 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:23 ... you know, taking myself to the, to my deathbed and thinking about-

Africa Brooke 1:01:27 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:27 ... the decisions I would... If this was... If I was laying there, and this was the, the last moments of my life would I... What decision would I wish I'd, would have made on this particular situation.

Africa Brooke 1:01:35 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:36 That's quite clarifying, and it also-

Africa Brooke 1:01:37 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:38 It also cuts out this kind of unconscious feeling that I think we all have that there'll always be time to do it.

Africa Brooke 1:01:44 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:45 We can always do it next year.

Africa Brooke 1:01:46 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:47 But we don't live forever, unfortunately.

Africa Brooke 1:01:48 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:49 We live under the illusion that we do. That's why there's a sand timer on there. It's just a nice reminder to me that I'm actually not infinite, I'm finite.

Africa Brooke 1:01:55 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:55 And so, that gives me a little bit of urgency to make, um, to live in a less petty way and a more, uh, a way that's more aligned with like my, my inner truth and my inner values.

Africa Brooke 1:02:04 Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:04 So, what would your, you know... If this were... If you were, uh, touch wood, diagnosed with something today and you, you thought-

Africa Brooke 1:02:10 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:10 ... "Do you know what? Gonna get my home in order."

Africa Brooke 1:02:12 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:14 Would you have that conversation?

Africa Brooke 1:02:15 I would absolutely have that conversation. And you know what? I'm grateful, very grateful that you and I have just had this exchange because when I found that journal a few days ago and I saw that entry saying, "I, I need to speak to her," I wrote, "I'm going to do this this week." And I finished the entry with, "If I don't do this, I'll never know what our relationship can be. I'm going to do this this week." And it was seven years ago. I'm gonna fucking do it this week. You're gonna get a message from me saying... (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:02:52 (laughs) She no longer talks to me. Uh, she's blocked me on Instagram. (laughs)

Africa Brooke 1:02:55 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:02:57 And that's... I'm so sorry about. Yeah.

Africa Brooke 1:03:00 I'm go-... Wow, my goodness. And you know, again, what you've just done is hold a mirror up to s- because I can feel a sort of tightness in my chest. But I also feel kind of like a relief-

Steven Bartlett 1:03:14 Mm-hmm.

Africa Brooke 1:03:14 ... in my shoulders at the same time. So it, it feels quite conflicting, but it makes sense, um, because you've just held a mirror up to me. Because in every other area of my life, whether it's business or life or writing, I'm very sure I can have any type of conversation. I'm very, uh, assured and confident and know exactly what I need to do. But it's amazing how in certain areas, there's still that sort of childlike, "Oh, I can't, I can't do this."

Steven Bartlett 1:03:43 Mm-hmm.

Africa Brooke 1:03:43 "It's too much. That's too big." That's why having someone, even in a brief exchange, that can hold a mirror up to that part of you and just ask e- just one question without asserting or trying to put forward a specific thing you should do.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:59 Mm-hmm.

Africa Brooke 1:04:00 Um, just a question that can kind of make you think, "Oh, I hadn't actually-"

Steven Bartlett 1:04:05 Hmm.

Africa Brooke 1:04:05 "... thought about that."

Steven Bartlett 1:04:07 I mean, I've got those things in my life, too. So like as I say-

Africa Brooke 1:04:10 Do you?

Steven Bartlett 1:04:10 Of course I have. I've got conversations that I just, I, we all, we put off for various reasons. And-

Africa Brooke 1:04:14 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:14 ... I think one of the things as well that I, that I often ask myself is like, if you get too tied up in the outcome and it all come, becomes outcome dependent-

Africa Brooke 1:04:22 Uh-huh.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:22 ... what are they gonna say, how is it gonna be-

Africa Brooke 1:04:24 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:24 ... you probably never make the decision.

Africa Brooke 1:04:25 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:25 But if it becomes based on like, "Why do I need to do this for myself-"

Africa Brooke 1:04:29 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:29 ... irrespective of outcome."

Africa Brooke 1:04:31 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:31 You know what I mean?

Africa Brooke 1:04:32 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:32 Then you start living more in your truth.

Africa Brooke 1:04:34 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:34 And the second point I was gonna say is, that tightness in your chest, it's an interesting thing, 'cause whenever we feel, find ourselves in those situations where something is making us uncomfortable or, you know, you described as a tightness in the chest-

Africa Brooke 1:04:45 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:45 ... the tightness in the chest is not gonna, um, doesn't leave us because we ignore it. It just, it, it's like this little insidious f- force inside of us that will eat us up in little ways.

Africa Brooke 1:04:55 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:55 And we think often, as I have in my past, that if I just suppress or compartmentalize that-

Africa Brooke 1:05:00 Oh, right.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:01 ... it will... That's the best way to deal with it. I think the way that you, we release whatever that tightness... And the tightness in the chest is such a good indicator.

Africa Brooke 1:05:09 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:10 It means we've got work to do, right?

Africa Brooke 1:05:11 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:12 'Cause I was thinking about that analogy, like, that conversation didn't put the tightness in your chest.

Africa Brooke 1:05:16 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:16 The tightness in your, was already there.

Africa Brooke 1:05:17 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:18 The tension was already there.

Africa Brooke 1:05:19 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:20 You just f- it just came to the surface.

Africa Brooke 1:05:21 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:23 So the way to never have the tightness again is to release with-

Africa Brooke 1:05:27 The, the, the thing.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:28 ... the thing, the unaddressed-

Africa Brooke 1:05:30 The thing, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:31 One of the things I've heard you talk about a lot is your, your journey and your evolving relationship with sex and sexuality-

Africa Brooke 1:05:41 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:42 ... and how that changed from when you were very young-

Africa Brooke 1:05:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:44 ... through the period when you were drinking a lot-

Africa Brooke 1:05:47 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:47 ... um, 'til today. Can you talk to me about that evolution and what you've learned about those topics that might benefit me?

Africa Brooke 1:05:55 Yes, absolutely. So, I'm going to sort of keep referring to my sobriety and that period of my life, because it was so transformative and it revealed so much to me, so much that I could have never imagined at the time. So something that also happened when I got sober, I think this was about a year into my sobriety, I realized just how much sexual shame I was holding, so much of it. And I initially sort of wanted to fix it, wanted to do something about it. What are some surface-level things that I can do? What can I read? What can I sort of dive into? How can I deal with it from where I am now as a 25-year-old? But I quickly realized that I actually had to trace it back to see where it even comes from. And I realized, just like so many things, it did come from my childhood. Being raised in a Christian home...I learned, again, not directly, more so indirectly, that being a sexual being was not something that was of God. It was not something that was supposed to be a part of who I am. Pleasure was never discussed. Sex was never discussed. Even intimacy, in general. I never saw my parents hold hands. I never saw my parents hold hands. I never saw them kiss. I never saw them hug. I never saw any sort of affection. But I knew that they loved each other. I knew that they cared about each other. But affection and intimacy, I just never saw that, not for a moment. Did you see that growing up?

Steven Bartlett 1:07:35 Um... It's a really interesting one because I'd say, I'd say yes and no.

Africa Brooke 1:07:42 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:42 So I say yes, because below the age of maybe eight, maybe I, like, have got memories of that and then above the age of 10, um, no. And I, I call-

Africa Brooke 1:07:52 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:52 ... my parents by their first names.

Africa Brooke 1:07:54 Okay.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:54 And I've really struggled with, with intimacy because-

Africa Brooke 1:07:58 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:58 ... of the exact same reasons.

Africa Brooke 1:07:59 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:59 Like even the word best friend made me cringe until the age of... It still kind of makes me cringe now.

Africa Brooke 1:08:03 Me too. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:08:04 (laughs) Yeah. You know what I mean? Like when people-

Africa Brooke 1:08:06 Me too.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:06 ... would say or call me their best friend, this is the part where I go, "Ugh."

Africa Brooke 1:08:09 Steven, me too.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:10 Like it's just a bit... Even boyfriend would make me like, "Ugh, prison." Like, you know what I mean? So... (laughs)

Africa Brooke 1:08:15 Me too. That's why when I found the word partner-

Steven Bartlett 1:08:18 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 1:08:19 ... I was like, "Okay."

Steven Bartlett 1:08:20 Yeah. (laughs)

Africa Brooke 1:08:20 "That feels, that feels much better." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:08:22 Yeah. We stand next to each other. We don't... (laughs)

Africa Brooke 1:08:25 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:08:25 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 1:08:25 Oh my goodness.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:27 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 1:08:27 So when I sort of wanted to really understand where a lot of the sexual shame was stemming from, or just more so even outside of sex, intimacy. Intimacy. Feeling very disconnected to other people when it came to intimacy, but also from myself. I realized that I could only be expressive as a sexual being if I was drunk or if I was high, if I was in that place where, of course, my inhibitions are low, but I had no insecurities. I didn't have to feel like I'm doing something wrong. I didn't have to feel like my pleasure was wrong. But then when I got sober, all of those things came to the surface and then I, I had to look that in the eye. So that also became something that I started sharing over time. As well as sort of sharing my journey with sobriety, I then started sharing the things that were revealed as a byproduct of me getting sober, and sexual shame was a huge one, was a big part of that.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:24 My relationship with sex has evolved a lot.

Africa Brooke 1:09:26 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:26 Over, over time. I think it was early, in my early years influenced by porn.

Africa Brooke 1:09:30 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:30 As it is for many people.

Africa Brooke 1:09:32 Me too. Me too.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:32 So that's the way I went into the game.

Africa Brooke 1:09:33 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:33 I just went in trying to be those, those male porn stars, you know?

Africa Brooke 1:09:36 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:36 (laughs) And I think over time, and I think there's just this wider issue in our society, specifically, I've gotta be honest, with men.

Africa Brooke 1:09:43 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:44 Um, what they think that, what they think sex is in terms of this kind of very aggressive, often dominating-

Africa Brooke 1:09:54 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:54 ... transactional-

Africa Brooke 1:09:56 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:56 ... um, encounter.

Africa Brooke 1:09:59 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:59 And then there's... You know, I'm, again, I'm just, I'm just talking freely here. I don't give a fuck what anyone does. Like... (laughs)

Africa Brooke 1:10:03 Please do. Please.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:05 But I'm seeing a lot in, in my, in my close friends, they're all in rela- they're often in relationships, not all of them-

Africa Brooke 1:10:11 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:11 ... where they're having problems with their sexual relationship with their partner.

Africa Brooke 1:10:17 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:17 They're basically saying things to me, and I'd say it, this is crazy, I'd say 75 to 80% of my male friends are saying, "My partner doesn't wanna have sex."

Africa Brooke 1:10:25 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:25 "She doesn't like having sex."

Africa Brooke 1:10:26 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:27 And I was there at one point too. My partner said that to me at one point too.

Africa Brooke 1:10:31 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:31 And I took it on face value. I thought, "They don't like sex."

Africa Brooke 1:10:35 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:36 What I came to learn is that wasn't true. But that what, what I'd learnt to be sex and what I was bringing as sex, this kind of aggressive, you know, whatever, was not-

Africa Brooke 1:10:47 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:48 ... the language that they spoke.

Africa Brooke 1:10:49 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:50 And I feel like I'm surrounded by men that need to start seeing sex as a language.

Africa Brooke 1:10:56 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:56 Because then you can ask yourself, "Well, actually she's speaking Spanish and I'm speaking English."

Africa Brooke 1:10:59 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:59 That's why... It's not she doesn't like English. She just doesn't, she speaks a different language.

Africa Brooke 1:11:03 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:03 You know what I mean?

Africa Brooke 1:11:04 Yes. Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:05 That's a lot. I'm just dumping that on you to see how it resonates. (laughs)

Africa Brooke 1:11:06 No, no, no, no, no. No, that resonates so m- And I'm, I'm really glad that you said this because I think you're speaking something that is on so many people's minds, or something that they've just never really put language to. And a big part of my awakening, if you will, and really addressing that sexual shame is because I also learnt sex from porn at 10 years old. 10 years old. So by the time that I had sex for the first time when I was 14, it was very much like a porn performance, to put it very simply. And I speak to so many people, men and women, about this very specific thing. A lot of us learn that we should perform, that sex should be driven by orgasm and ejaculation and this sort of production, if you will, which is not actually accurate for most people when it comes to what really actually feels pleasurable, especially for women. So I started to realize when I got sober that every time that I was having sex, for example, I faked every single orgasm. It was all a perfo- I di- I didn't know much about my body because I'd learned from porn and because the men that I was with had also learned from porn, we were just in a performance and no one's actually talking about it, right?

Steven Bartlett 1:12:19 Mm-hmm.

Africa Brooke 1:12:20 So in times when I was in relationships and I made myself think, "I don't want to have sex. I don't want to have sex anymore," it actually was not that. I didn't want to have this type of pornified sex. That's what I actually meant. So what you just said is really important. And I realized... That's when I found tantric sex, actually.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:39 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 1:12:40 Yeah. That's when I found-

Steven Bartlett 1:12:40 Yeah, yeah.

Africa Brooke 1:12:40 ... tantric sex, around 2018 because I realized that I had always felt like sex was being done to me.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:48 Yes.

Africa Brooke 1:12:49 That I was not a part of it, and that is how most women feel.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:53 I, I felt like I needed to apologize- (laughs)

Africa Brooke 1:12:55 Really?

Steven Bartlett 1:12:55 ... on behalf of men. Yeah, because that's what, that's what I came to learn.

Africa Brooke 1:12:58 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:59 Was that the...... the reason why the- the person I was with-

Africa Brooke 1:13:04 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:05 ... had turned around to me and said, "I don't like having sex," is... And when we got talking about it-

Africa Brooke 1:13:09 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:10 ... after I acted like f- I mean, let me be clear, the first time she said that-

Africa Brooke 1:13:14 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:14 ... I did not understand. My little chimp-

Africa Brooke 1:13:16 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:16 ... Neanderthal monkey brain went, "Uh, uh, uh." Like, I was emasculated by it.

Africa Brooke 1:13:20 (laughs) Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:21 It made me feel, wha- is there something that I was... I didn't do right?

Africa Brooke 1:13:24 Ego steps in, right?

Steven Bartlett 1:13:26 Of course. Ended up breaking up with this person. Got back-

Africa Brooke 1:13:27 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:27 ... with this person a year later, when I was maybe a bit more mature, I apologized and I said, "I wanna have a conversation." And I s- also said to her that, "I'm gonna be here regardless of whether we have sex or not."

Africa Brooke 1:13:36 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:37 And then she could... She had a safe enough space to start talking to me about it. And what I discovered is she'd been with... She'd had three previous boyfriends over the course of seven years. Sh- her view of sex was this person comes and takes from you, treats you like this object-

Africa Brooke 1:13:53 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:53 ... and she was with him for five years. Treats you like an object, takes what they want from you, and then he was actually going and cheating on her as well.

Africa Brooke 1:13:59 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:00 So not only was he taking, he was then, like, hurting her. And that cycle just repeated. Her relationship with what sex is was really, really toxic.

Africa Brooke 1:14:07 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:08 She didn't like that.

Africa Brooke 1:14:09 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:10 She didn't want that anymore.

Africa Brooke 1:14:11 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:11 And that's what she and me probably referred to as this word sex.

Africa Brooke 1:14:15 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:16 So it was kind of like learning a new language of sex and what it actually is that meant-

Africa Brooke 1:14:19 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:20 ... she went from the place of like, "I don't wanna have sex anymore," to l- absolutely loving to have sex.

Africa Brooke 1:14:25 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:26 And I didn't think it was possible. I thought, "If they don't like sex, dump them."

Africa Brooke 1:14:29 Yes. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:14:30 You know what I mean? And go find-

Africa Brooke 1:14:31 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:31 ... someone that will-

Africa Brooke 1:14:32 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:32 ... that will let me take (laughs) .

Africa Brooke 1:14:33 Yes. And you know what-

Steven Bartlett 1:14:35 You know, so...

Africa Brooke 1:14:35 ... you, you've at- articulated that so beautifully in terms of sex being a language, and it's going to look different for every single person because something that I realized is that I could tell when I was with a man sexually, I could tell if they were sort of... if it was like a script almost, like a play-by-play. Like, this is exactly the method. We do this, we do that, switch into this, switch into that. It, it wasn't sort of flowing and very intuitive as to what's actually needed in that moment, which reminded me of porn. And I would also realize actually, and this is something that I've spoken about so much because I ended up, um, starting a sexual wellness company called CHERRY REVOLUTION over time, and I realized that even some of the positions I would get in were very much like porn because certain positions in porn are like that because the camera is there, not because it's comfortable, because that's the shot for the viewer to be able to see it. So when I started to see that I'm starting to replicate this in my most intimate private moments, but we're both doing it, I made myself believe that I didn't enjoy sex. So then drinking and drugs and everything that came with it, I felt like those were the moments that I could be fully expressive without needing to perform. Which is very interesting because you would think it would be the opposite, that I would then perform more, but I felt as if I could actually speak my mind. If I didn't enjoy something, "Can we try this? Can I do this instead?" Or, "I just want to give," or, "I just want to receive. Can we be slower?" And then when I was sober, I felt like I couldn't say those things because if I say it to you as my partner, I might be emasculating you, I might be embarrassing you, you might think something is wrong. So I would just perform, and you're performing as well, and then it just causes a huge disconnect. So tantric sex was the first thing that I came across that made me realize and really articulated that sex is actually not a specific destination. Did you know that you can actually enjoy sex without a ejaculation, that you can have a full body orgasm, that you can be very slow, that foreplay can be the main thing that you do, that you can experience orgasm without penetration? Just so many different ways of articulating that experience of sex, and it's just that, an experience. And that changed so much for me.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:00 It's such a, um, sort of a narrative vi- violation for so many people who've spent their whole life watching porn and then-

Africa Brooke 1:17:05 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:06 ... re- recreating it, this idea that you can have an orgasm from touch, that-

Africa Brooke 1:17:09 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:10 ... you can use energy to, to, to cause someone-

Africa Brooke 1:17:13 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:13 ... or- orgasmic pleasure and-

Africa Brooke 1:17:14 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:14 ... um... Yeah. I ju- that's... It's a really important topic that I think people need to talk about a lot more. And I think just, just saying to someone that's listening to this that might be in a relationship where they're not... they're in a sexless relationship-

Africa Brooke 1:17:26 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:27 ... just proposing the idea that what if you both just speak... there's... just say there was 10 languages-

Africa Brooke 1:17:32 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:32 ... what if you're just speaking the wrong language?

Africa Brooke 1:17:34 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:34 You know what I mean? And what, how... What approach would you then take? You'd probably try and learn the language.

Africa Brooke 1:17:38 Yes. Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:39 And, um, also communicate to them what language you speak and see-

Africa Brooke 1:17:42 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:42 ... and see how you can be bilingual, I guess. (laughs)

Africa Brooke 1:17:45 Yes. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:17:46 You know?

Africa Brooke 1:17:46 You know what it re-

Steven Bartlett 1:17:47 (laughs)

Africa Brooke 1:17:47 ... it reminds me of, um, are you familiar with Love Languages and, and that, that whole thing?

Steven Bartlett 1:17:51 Yes.

Africa Brooke 1:17:52 I realize that a lot of people expect someone to give in the way that they like to receive.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:02 Amen.

Africa Brooke 1:18:02 You know? So no one really says, "Okay, how do you like to receive love? How do you like to give love?" And the moment that I started asking those questions, even though I, believe me, I fucking cringed in the beginning, I'm like, "Really? Am I gonna ask for-" (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:18:16 (laughs)

Africa Brooke 1:18:17 But you get used to it.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:18 Yeah. Yeah. And if they run off, good. (laughs)

Africa Brooke 1:18:19 It's been... Yeah.