Alex Honnold: Why fear training takes years, not hacks

Speaker 0:00 It drives me crazy that nobody else thinks about risk in this way. People look at my life and they're like, "Well, you're crazy. You're such a risk-taker." Well, at least I'm taking the risks that I'm choosing. Because think of all the people that, like, go out partying every weekend, and they get buzzed, and they drive home. And even sedentary people who are like, "Well, I don't take risks. I stay home and I play video games." No, you're at a much higher risk of heart disease. Like, they're taking all kinds of risk that they're not actually choosing to take, and you're still gonna freaking die either way. So you might as well take smart, calculated risks and do all the things that you wanna do, and at least die happy when you go. [chuckles] He's done it! Alex Honnold has made history again.

Steven Bartlett 0:32 Scaling one of the world's tallest skyscrapers. But the conclusion that a lot of people have arrived at is that you don't experience fear. Because when they look at these two brain scans, your amygdala is lighting up less when you're shown scary images.

Speaker 0:43 I, I actually hate all the brain stuff because people always put me in this box of like, "Well, you're different." And I'm like, "Well, not really." Like, I'm a middle-class suburban kid. Nobody in my family is athletic. I just... After 20 years of climbing five days a week and being really freaking scared, I respond differently than an average person. And there was tons of emotional turmoil throughout it, periods where you're just like, "I'm trying so hard, and I'm just, like, not as good as I want to be." You know, I was, like, living in a car, and I had, like, a couple hundred bucks a month for 10 years. Like, that's challenging, but you just can't master a craft overnight.

Steven Bartlett 1:08 I guess that's what people don't see. And so how do you create the conditions to out-persist other people? And then in all your career, when is the moment where you were most scared?

Speaker 1:16 On an expedition in Antarctica, I kept hoping that it's gonna get better, and it just kept getting worse, like I could die.

Steven Bartlett 1:21 Do you have a conversation with your partner before you go and do something like this? Because she wrote a letter.

Speaker 1:25 Oh, gosh.

Steven Bartlett 1:26 "Obviously, this is your worst nightmare," she said, "but we all have to do scary things sometimes, Alex." [drumbeat] Guys, I've got a quick favor to ask you. We're approaching a significant subscriber milestone on this show, and roughly sixty-nine percent of you that listen and love this show haven't yet subscribed for whatever reason. If there was ever a time for you to do us a favor, if we've ever done anything for you, given you value in any way, it is simply hitting that Subscribe button. And it means so much to myself, but also to my team, 'cause when we hit these milestones, we go away as a team and celebrate. And it's the thing, the simple, free, easy thing you can do to help make this show a little bit better every single week. So that's a favor I would ask you, and, um, if you do hit the Subscribe button, I won't let you down, and we'll continue to find small ways to make this whole production better. Thank you so much for being part of this journey. It means the world, and, uh, yeah, let's do this. [upbeat music] Alex, to understand you, I think from everything I've learned about you, from the research I've done, from speaking to your wife, your agent, everybody I could speak to, I think to understand your context, we first need to understand the circumstances in which you were raised and the childhood you had, because it seems to be... I mean, for all of us, there's, like, fingerprints left on, left on us that define

Steven Bartlett 2:43 the anomaly, um, that many of us become, including yourself. So what do I need to know? What does the viewer need to know about the early context?

Speaker 2:50 Well, I mean, [chuckles] how deep do you want to go?

Steven Bartlett 2:52 How deep?

Speaker 2:52 I need to get a sofa I need to recline. [laughing] Just be like, "All right." Uh, but yeah, certainly there's a, there's an imprint from my parents in my upbringing. I mean, they had a, a very fraught relationship. They eventually got divorced, but they stayed together for the kids, and it was a whole, like, you know, say, a tense home life because neither of them really liked each other. And then my mom is very driven, very, you know, high-performing. And my dad was hard to say. I mean, I think my dad was deeply depressed basically the whole time I knew him, 'cause he was in this relation... You know, it's hard to tell. He wasn't living his best life. And then, sadly, after they got divorced, he was, he was much happier, but then he died, and so then never really got to see, uh, never really got to see him blossom that much.

Steven Bartlett 3:30 And your mother's high-performing, and did, did she sort of implicitly demand that of you in any way?

Speaker 3:35 Yeah, I mean, my mother speaks, like, seven or eight languages. She, like, plays every instrument. It's, like, kind of crazy. She's very artistically minded, uh, in that way, like, you know, the arts in a classical sense. But, um, yeah, she... I mean, she wanted us to do all those things, too. I'm a deep disappointment in that regard. [chuckles]

Steven Bartlett 3:50 [chuckles] There was a phrase that I saw when I was watching the documentary that your, your mother would continually say, which I think translates to something like, "Not good enough."

Speaker 3:58 Oh, like, "Presque ne compte pas," like, uh, almost, uh, like, almost doesn't count. It's funny because I feel like, uh, a lot of my adult life now, one of my sort of go-to sayings is, you know, "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good." I'm really into, like, good enough. Like, it's better to, like, try. It's better to do something. Uh, you know, it's better to fail quickly and learn and keep moving forward than to not try something. Like, basically, I don't want to be crippled by perfectionism.

Steven Bartlett 4:20 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4:20 And sort of like my mom is very much a perfectionist. You know, like, "If you can't do it right, don't do it." I'm sort of like, "Ah, I think it's better to try and learn and improve."

Steven Bartlett 4:29 But she's accomplished a lot of things with that approach.

Speaker 4:31 Yeah, she... Yeah, she has, for sure.

Steven Bartlett 4:33 What about emotions? This is something you- I've heard, heard you sort of talked about a lot, is in that environment where your mother and father aren't getting along well, I think I, I heard you say that your- you hadn't seen your father really happy before he'd passed away.

Speaker 4:45 Yeah. [chuckles]

Steven Bartlett 4:46 Was it an emotional household in terms of affection?

Speaker 4:49 No, it was a very unemotional household. That said, though, you know, it was a safe, relatively happy household. Like, it was, it was fine, you know, and, and I was close to a lot of my extended family, and so I had a really good relationship with my grandparents and some of my aunts and uncles. And so, I mean, I basically would have characterized it as a totally happy family life until I became older and started seeing other people's families more, and it was kind of like: Oh, this seems even happier. [chuckles] You know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 5:09 Mm.

Speaker 5:09 Where it's, like, basically really good until you see what, uh, what else it can be, and then you're like, "This seems even better."

Steven Bartlett 5:14 Mm.

Speaker 5:14 You know?

Steven Bartlett 5:15 And your mum wasn't ever affectionate?

Speaker 5:17 You know, it always feels slightly conditional, you know, where it's like, uh, you know, she cares if you be... you know, if you perform well, like, if you do well, like, if you're a good kid or what- whatever. You know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 5:28 Well, where, where did climbing come into your life? 'Cause it- I've got some... I have found some photos of you climbing, and you look here, like, with your sister, I believe. Here we go. This one here.

Speaker 5:36 Yeah, [chuckles] classic.

Steven Bartlett 5:38 How old are you there?

Speaker 5:38 Uh, I don't know. I mean, I don't know, like, six or something, or eight. Uh, it's hard for me to tell, like, medium-sized kids' ages.

Steven Bartlett 5:45 Why cl- why climbing?

Speaker 5:46 Oh, why not? It's so freaking cool. Have you, have you rock climbed?

Steven Bartlett 5:49 I've... Yeah, I have.

Speaker 5:50 You go to a gym?

Steven Bartlett 5:51 Yeah, I've, I have, but-

Speaker 5:52 And wasn't it the freaking coolest thing?

Steven Bartlett 5:54 It was fun, yeah, for sure. I mean, saying I've climbed when I'm sat with you is, I feel like-

Speaker 5:58 Yeah, but you have tried it.

Steven Bartlett 5:59 Yeah, I have. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6:00 As an adult.

Steven Bartlett 6:01 Yeah.

Speaker 6:01 If you can imagine as a kid how fun that is, and then if you just keep doing that nonstop-... and then you find that you're, you know, have some aptitude for it, you enjoy it, it's like you, you, you can imagine going down that path. It's so cool.

Steven Bartlett 6:13 But is there something about the challenge of climbing that you think just kind of like was a jigsaw piece for your, for you, your brain, like problem-solving?

Speaker 6:19 Well, I think there's something elemental about climbing in the same way as, like, running or swimming. It's like a basic movement thing that I think is quite enjoyable. And I think that I also-- I, I think I have an innate love of, like, being on top of things, [chuckles] like, you know, being at the top. Basically, I love big views. I like the expansive... You know, I like air, and so I like being up on stuff. So I don't know, I think it just hit a few sweet spots like that, where I was like, "Oh, climbing is just so cool."

Steven Bartlett 6:43 And you, I'm assuming you never thought this could be a career?

Speaker 6:46 No, no. And actually, even when I started rock climbing sort of full-time, I still didn't think it could be a career because there just wasn't really professional climbing at that time. It was, like, much smaller. The industry was way smaller, climbing was way more fringe and, like, less of a thing.

Steven Bartlett 6:58 But you weren't motivated by, like, money or anything? 'Cause o- one does not pursue rock climbing to become-

Speaker 7:03 No

Steven Bartlett 7:04 ... rich.

Speaker 7:04 Not to become rich, no. Well, so I said the-- So my father died, like, the season before that, and because my parents had just gotten divorced, he basically left his retirement to my sister and me, and she used it to finish college. I just put it into bonds and was living off, like, three hundred bucks a month or whatever, which kind of, like, worked. You know, I was, like, living in a car. I stole my mom's minivan at the time. I had, like, a couple hundred bucks a month, and it was kind of enough to just, like, go to be a nineteen-year-old, just, like, camping, you know?

Steven Bartlett 7:30 Was it this minivan?

Speaker 7:32 No, that's my second one. That's the Ford Econoline. That's the first, uh, actual van that I bought. I lived in that van for ten years.

Steven Bartlett 7:37 For ten years?

Speaker 7:38 Yeah. Yeah, so I bought this van. I mean, this is, this is classic, but so I bought this van for ten grand, and, and then originally, this is the last build-out, which is the classiest build-out. The original one my uncle and I did for free with, like, scrap wood from his, you know, in his woodshop, basically. [chuckles] And, uh, and so then I lived in that for ten years, [chuckles] and you're kind of like: Yeah, when you live in it... I couldn't even stand in this van, you know? I was like, "Oh, my back." But, you know, when you're living in your car for ten years, you, you save quite a lot of money. [chuckles]

Steven Bartlett 8:05 Between what ages did you live in your car for ten years?

Speaker 8:08 I probably bought this van when I was twenty, so twenty to thirty, basically.

Steven Bartlett 8:11 Hmm. Does the-

Speaker 8:12 Yeah, actually, actually, I think that's right, because, um, because I think I met my wife when I was thirty, and that same year, I switched from this van to the bigger van. If you've seen the film Free Solo, that's, um... I bought the, the Promaster, this, like, Dodge. It was like I could stand up in my van finally, and I was like: I'm moving up in the world. I can stand. It was pretty exciting.

Steven Bartlett 8:28 You can cook in there really well. Oh, there's, there is a little stove in this one, but-

Speaker 8:31 Yeah, so this, though, is the-- I did three different build-outs of this van over the ten years, 'cause, like, the original one was super scrappy. The second build was, like, a little nicer, and then this was, like, a pretty nice build that I had for, I don't know, five or six years or something.

Steven Bartlett 8:43 When you live in your van for ten years and you have a mother who is very performance-focused... I've got, um, p- her here. I believe you climbing with her.

Speaker 8:51 Yep, yep. Yep, classic.

Steven Bartlett 8:53 Do you not face a lot of external pressure to, like, go get a real job?

Speaker 8:56 Honestly, less so than you would think. Um, like, to her credit, my mom was always pretty supportive of the whole path. I think, you know, I was kind of lucky that, that I did a lot of this when I was, like, young enough, that it's all part of, like, your gap year. Like, you know, it's like you're young and you're finding yourself, and then, and then I think there was enough sort of external validation that, that my family could at least look at it and be like: "Well, you seem to be good at this random thing, even though we don't get it and don't really know what you're doing, but at least other people think you're good at it, so keep doing your thing."

Steven Bartlett 9:24 And at this point, was it, was it rock climbing? Was it free soloing and-

Speaker 9:28 Yeah, it's all a little bit of everything, but basically just being a-- I mean, you know, like, being a professional climber, quote-unquote, some of it's free soloing, some of it's, like, speed climbing, some of it's just hard climbing, some of it's going on expeditions, doing new routes. Like, it's a little bit of everything.

Steven Bartlett 9:40 And for the average person that doesn't know what free soloing is, what's the, like, definition of it?

Speaker 9:44 That's climbing without a rope, so climbing without protection, which is definitely what I'm most well known for now. But in the context of professional climbing, I've done tons of other things in climbing. Like, most of the time, you have a rope on. Most of the time, you're doing other sorts of things, but it's like the free soloing is what you wind up being well known for because that, like, breaks into the mainstream a lot more.

Steven Bartlett 10:04 I'm really intrigued generally by people like you, who, like, take-- I, I mean, take the path less traveled in their career and then maybe nearer the, the end of the graph, pick up traction. And I have this piece of paper and this pen-

Speaker 10:18 Mm

Steven Bartlett 10:18 ... because I'd love if you could, from the age of, let's say, eighteen, how-- you're, you're now forty years old.

Speaker 10:24 Yeah, I turned forty this year. Getting old.

Steven Bartlett 10:26 Could you draw a graph showing how your career looks in terms of success? And you can measure that by money or attention or whatever.

Speaker 10:35 Let's see. So it was kind of like-

Steven Bartlett 10:38 Nothing, nothing

Speaker 10:38 ... slow a little bit, and then, like, this-ish.

Steven Bartlett 10:41 Yeah.

Speaker 10:42 And then kind of like, meh, and then basically just like, like this, where you're basically, like, kind of flat but growing, and then you have Free Solo, where it jumps a ton. It's, like, kind of crazy. And then, and then it keeps kind of growing at a slightly faster rate than before, and then it basically jumps a ton because of the building thing again.

Steven Bartlett 10:57 I, I find this fascinating because most people in their lives wouldn't be willing to endure this phase, eighteen to twenty-nine, where progressively-

Speaker 11:05 Well, but it's not enduring. It's so great. Like, I would do that again. I loved it so much. Like, I mean, I often think I'd be so happy to just start over from zero, because, like, all the places that I go climbing now, I've been climbing there for twenty years, and I've, like, done most of the things I can do, and, you know, I've sort of, like, tapped out a lot of stuff in the western US. And I'm like: Man, I would love to just hit the re-zero button and start over. Because you'd have so much stuff to do, and it's so amazing.

Steven Bartlett 11:26 I guess that's the, that's the different-- the, the fault of my question is that I said the word endure, but you see it as-

Speaker 11:33 Yeah, you get to climb every single thing you see. It's amazing. Yeah, I mean, and that's the thing is, like, from age eighteen to, to thirty, I basically did try to climb every single thing I could see because I was just like: I'm learning, I'm growing. This is amazing. I climb everything. And, like, now I'm actually much more strategic about it, because doing tons of easy climbing, like, doesn't really help me at this point. I'm not gonna make, like, big technique gains. It basically just makes me tired without, without the right kind of gains. It'd be like somebody-- It'd be like an elite runner just jogging for miles and miles every day, and you're kind of like, that's not gonna make you-- that's not gonna improve your marathon time if you're already, like, an elite runner.... it, it might be fun, but it's just not gonna, like, move the needle for you.

Steven Bartlett 12:11 Through this period of your life, eighteen to thirty, you're, you're optimizing for just having fun, doing things you enjoy?

Speaker 12:16 Well, I mean, no, I was always, I was always challenging myself. Like, basically, I was optimizing for, like, what's the next thing I can do that pushes me a little bit?

Steven Bartlett 12:23 But you weren't optimizing for how to get rich or- [chuckles]

Speaker 12:26 [chuckles] Well, well, then I would've gotten a job. If I was optimizing for getting rich, I would've freaking finished my college degree and gotten a job.

Steven Bartlett 12:32 I say this in part 'cause I interview so many people who pursued careers that are often considered not real jobs, like comedians-

Speaker 12:39 Mm

Steven Bartlett 12:39 ... or magicians, and I tend to find the same thing. Between the age of eighteen and thirty, they optimize for something that isn't necessarily being rich or famous.

Speaker 12:47 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 12:48 And then at some point, the graph looks like this.

Speaker 12:50 Well, it's because, I, I mean, I think... You know, I'm sure you know this, but I mean, the, the world really, it's like a winner-take-all economy type deal. It's like, basically, if you're the dude that does the thing, all of a sudden, your earnings go insane.

Steven Bartlett 13:02 Mm.

Speaker 13:02 But until you become the dude that does the thing, I mean, you know, if you're, like, the best magician or the best comedian or the best whatever, then all of a sudden, you make an insane amount of money. But when you're just, like, one of many struggling comedians, you're, you know, you're struggling. And so I think for me as a climber, you're sort of like, "Oh, I'm just a dude living in my van, climbing." But then at a certain point, I'm, like, the dude that, you know, I'm like, "Oh, you're that guy that climbs without the rope," and you're like, "Oh, yeah, cool." And then all of a sudden, your earnings are like phew.

Steven Bartlett 13:25 Was this um- was this a difficult period of your life, this eighteen to thirty?

Speaker 13:29 No, it was, like, the best. Well, obviously, it was, like, fr- you know, I was, like, trying to juggle relate... Like, I wanted to get a girlfriend. You're a young twenties man living alone in a car, like, wanting to be better at something than you are, but not, not quite knowing the way and not knowing what you're doing with your life. So no, so obviously, there was tons of emotional turmoil throughout it. But no, I mean, retrospectively, it's, like, amazing.

Steven Bartlett 13:49 And your, your dad passes away, which is, in part, I guess, some of the catalyst for you to-

Speaker 13:53 Yeah, honestly, my dad passing away should be the beginning of that graph. It should be- this should basically start at nineteen. 'Cause, uh, eighteen, I went to university, and so then, uh, starting at nineteen, I guess, I, uh, went on the road.

Steven Bartlett 14:05 Your dad passing-

Speaker 14:07 Mm

Steven Bartlett 14:07 ... what, what impact did that have on you outside of it somewhat liberating you to, to make decisions that outside of his expectations?

Speaker 14:13 Well, I mean, obviously, it was... You know, it's sad. It's hard. Like, and especially now, I'm sort of like, oh, it's too bad that, that I don't have a relationship with my dad, and he doesn't, you know, that my kids don't have a grandfather and all that kind of... You know, it's like, yeah, it's, it's tough. I think that the most immediate impact that it had maybe was just reminding me of my own mortality. You know, I mean, he, he died unexpectedly at fifty-five, just fell over in the airport and just fell over dead, um, like, heart attack. And so, you know, I mean, I think that that reminder of my own mortality has had a big impact on my career, my life, you know, my climbing world, whatever.

Steven Bartlett 14:46 One might not expect you to go, quote-unquote, "do risky things" because of-

Speaker 14:51 Well, no, because the thing is, I think one of the reasons that people don't do risky things is because they have this, uh, you know, mistaken idea that they can live forever, basically. Be- and basically because people don't want to think about their own mortality, and so they're like: "Oh, I don't want to take any risks. I could die." And you're like: You know that you're gonna die either way.

Steven Bartlett 15:08 Mm.

Speaker 15:08 And either way, when you die, you're gonna be bummed that you didn't live longer because, you know, it's like, like, the life expectancy in the US is seventy-eight. And you're like, great. Say you make it to... for men, whatever. Like, say you make it that far, you're still gonna be like: "Man, I wish I had twenty-two more years to, like, watch my grandkids graduate college or whatever." You know, it's like, it's still gonna feel like too little.

Steven Bartlett 15:26 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 15:27 And so I'm kind of like, you're better off dying at fifty-five in an accident, but having done many things that you're proud of and, you know, like, led a life that you're, that you're proud of, than dying at seventy-eight and still wishing you had more but having done none of the things that you wanted to do.

Steven Bartlett 15:41 It is interesting. It does appear that people live as if we think we're gonna live forever.

Speaker 15:44 Yeah, it's totally insane. I mean, everyone's like: "Oh, I don't take any risk," and you're like, "Yeah, well, you can take no risk in your life, and you're still gonna freaking die." So you might as well take smart, calculated risks and do all the things that you wanna do and at least die happy when you go. [chuckles]

Steven Bartlett 15:57 What does this mean to you to, like, live intentionally?

Speaker 15:59 Well, that's exactly it, like, choosing the, the risk that you're willing to take, making choices, like, using your time the way you want to use it.

Steven Bartlett 16:06 I was looking at, I think it was your, your personality, a personality test you did. It said you were-

Speaker 16:10 Mike, did I do a personality test?

Steven Bartlett 16:12 Um-

Speaker 16:12 I'm like, how much material do you have? [chuckles] I'm like, Jesus Christ. [laughing] Like, how many, like, things do you have?

Steven Bartlett 16:17 I have unlimited things.

Speaker 16:18 I know. I'm so impressed. [chuckles]

Steven Bartlett 16:20 On this, uh, personality test, it says you're, you know, higher on thrill-seeking and sensation-seeking, but then also significantly higher than the average male on urgency, which I think kind of overlays with what you were just saying there of, like, making the decision to do something.

Speaker 16:32 Yeah, basically because your time is short and you're gonna die, so get on with it.

Steven Bartlett 16:36 It says here you're higher on conscientiousness.

Speaker 16:39 Very polite, you know.

Steven Bartlett 16:40 [chuckles] Thrill-seeking, sensation-seeking. You're low on boredom.

Speaker 16:44 I think low on boredom means that, you know, you don't get bored.

Steven Bartlett 16:47 Perseverance, you're very high on perseverance.

Speaker 16:49 Yeah, I think that's the same as low on boredom.

Steven Bartlett 16:51 And low on n- neuroticism.

Speaker 16:53 That's for sure.

Steven Bartlett 16:54 And so what's your- what is the- what's the definition of the word neuroticism? Is it like-

Speaker 16:57 Well, I think it's like the... Well, I'm sure there's a clinical definition, but I think of it as sort of general anxiety-type stuff, like, you know, people spinning in their heads about things that don't matter.

Steven Bartlett 17:06 And has that always been the case when you look back through your life and the feedback you've had as a kid and a teenager?

Speaker 17:10 Kind of, yeah. Yeah, I think so. I think I've never been too concerned about... I, I don't spin. I mean, obviously, you know, occasionally I stress about things, but, but just not the way I think a lot of people do.

Steven Bartlett 17:24 I'm trying to figure out if that's a learned behavior or maybe a little bit learned and a little bit, um, from your upbringing, genetics, whatever it might be. 'Cause can, can one learn that? Can one learn to be less neurotic and-

Speaker 17:33 Well, presumably. I mean, like meditation, things like that, I think people can sort of find a way to let go of certain things.

Steven Bartlett 17:39 Isn't this quite, quite interesting? When people ask you questions, inevitably about fear and how you take on such, you know, to muggles like me, terrifying challenges, there's an element of all of this which is you do have a nature-

Speaker 17:51 Mm

Steven Bartlett 17:52 ... and, and a nurture, which somewhat is impossible for someone like me to replicate-

Speaker 17:56 Mm

Steven Bartlett 17:56 ... because your brain and my brain are diff- completely different. Your parents, your early contacts, when your brain was being wired and myelinated, are completely different to mine. So, you know, I always find this is the, like, the trouble of giving people advice is-... um, we're dealing with different-

Speaker 18:12 Different natures.

Steven Bartlett 18:13 Different natures.

Speaker 18:14 But I, I do feel like in my case, the biggest difference in nature is the fact that I've just always loved climbing. You know, because I- basically, I think that nurture is, is the majority of this. Like, if you spend 30 years training a thing, you're gonna get better at the thing.

Steven Bartlett 18:26 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 18:26 And so I think that the biggest difference between me and, and somebody who's not into rock climbing is that I freaking love rock climbing. I could go out- I could do it 10 days a week if, if I could. You know what I mean? But sadly, I get too tired and my body breaks down. And so, you know, I could- I basically have, like, a limitless capacity to, to do the thing. I just love doing the thing, and I think that that is probably the biggest difference in nature. You know, because everything else you can kind of overcome. You know, like, if you loved rock climbing as much as I love rock climbing, no matter what your, your genetic disposition towards, like, neuroticism and all that stuff, you would just kinda work through all that stuff, and you'd find your own path to, to getting good at climbing, basically.

Steven Bartlett 19:02 If your kids came to you... You have two girls, right?

Speaker 19:03 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 19:04 If they came to you and said, "Dad," like, "give me advice on what I should aim at in life," would you tell them?

Speaker 19:09 Oh, I wouldn't, I wouldn't give them advice. I'd be like: "You do you. You find the thing you love to do, go hard. You know, basically, like, learn some skills, get good at something. Like, what do you like to do?" I mean, that's kinda the thing for me, especially with climbing, is like, if someone had told me, like, "You're gonna train climbing for the rest of your life," I'd be like: "Oh, that sounds like kind of a grind," you know? [chuckles] Because, I mean, it is-

Steven Bartlett 19:26 [chuckles]

Speaker 19:26 ... it is hard work. You're, like, hiking uphill with a heavy backpack, and it's cold, and it's windy, and it's like, it's basically physically uncomfortable. I mean, being a professional rock climber means that you're physically uncomfortable all the time. [chuckles] Like, like often, you know, like it's, you know, it's hard.

Steven Bartlett 19:39 Yeah.

Speaker 19:39 But if you're doing it because you freaking love doing it, it doesn't feel very hard. And so, I mean, I think the key for a kid is find the thing that doesn't feel like hard work.

Steven Bartlett 19:47 And when you started, were you scared of, of big, tall rock faces and stuff like that?

Speaker 19:53 I mean, yeah, I had, like, a healthy intimidation of things. I mean, like, my first season in Yosemite, the first time seeing El Cap as a climber, uh, I was 19, and it looks impossible. It looks completely insane. I was like: "That's so big!" But then, you know, within a couple seasons, uh, you know, I climbed some bigger walls, learned how to climb, and then a friend and I had this sort of season goal, like we were gonna climb in Yosemite all season with the aspiration at the end to climb El Cap in a day. So basically, there was this long progression on El Cap, specifically, where it's like you go from just trying to get up it, to trying to get up it faster, to trying to get up it with just your hands and feet, still using protection. But basically, there's, like, all these steps you can take. And so over a bunch of seasons, you know, I climbed El Cap, like, 60 times, different routes, all these different things. And then eventually you're sort of like, "Oh, maybe I can start thinking about free soloing it," which is where the film Free Solo comes in. And then eventually you do this thing, but then people are like: "Well, aren't you scared?" And you're kinda like, "Well, I've spent 10 years, like, building up on this thing."

Steven Bartlett 20:45 I guess that's what people don't see.

Speaker 20:47 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 20:48 So they just-

Speaker 20:49 I mean, like, the documentary Free Solo, I think does a pretty good job of showing the, the direct preparation, like the training involved in doing that specific climb, but it just doesn't show the, uh, like, eight years before that, I guess, because the documentary was filmed over two years, and I guess I've been going since 2006, so it was nine years before that, that I'd been going to Yosemite, and I'd been spending maybe three months a year climbing walls.

Steven Bartlett 21:10 Hmm. I guess that's the illusion of, like, all people that do great things and then become, like, athletes or sprinters or whatever, Ronaldo or Messi, is you, you don't get to see the-

Speaker 21:19 Yeah, the whole life that they put into doing the thing.

Steven Bartlett 21:21 Yeah.

Speaker 21:22 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:22 So it looks, it look, looks like a magic trick when we see the outcome. When we show up, show up on Netflix to watch you climb Taipei 101, we're like, "Whoa!

Speaker 21:28 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:28 He's hanging with it from his leg."

Speaker 21:29 Yeah, I mean, people watch some of those programs, and they're like: "He just walked up and did it," and you're like, "Well, yeah, after 30 years of practice," [chuckles] like, I just walked up and did it. But no, it's not like just walking up and doing it.

Steven Bartlett 21:39 Hmm. Part of the illusion, yeah.

Speaker 21:41 I mean, like, y- uh, I've literally been climbing five days a week for 30 years. Like, that's so much climbing. [chuckles] Like, I freaking love climbing, and I, I climb a lot.

Steven Bartlett 21:51 On this, um, on this idea of, like, exposure therapy as it relates to, like, fear and anxiety and confronting one's, uh, things that terrify them, was that... In the early days, were you-- I'm trying to understand, were you, like, scared at some point?

Speaker 22:01 Oh, all the time. That's actually something that I think, uh, you know, I've obviously done so many interviews around fear and, like, managing fear and all that, and I've talked about fear a lot of different ways over, over the years, and I think as I've gotten older, I've sort of come to realize that, that actually, you're just scared all the time as a climber. Like, low-level fear, low lev- like, but you're... But climbing is fundamentally scary. Like, it's always kinda scary because there are always consequences. Like, even if you're climbing with a rope, you're still always visualizing, like, what happens if the rope breaks? Like, what if, you know, like, is this safe? Like, you know, is the gear good? Like, is this actually safe? And so you're always a little bit scared, and so after years and years of always [chuckles] being scared, you get pretty good at managing that kind of stuff.

Steven Bartlett 22:40 Because there's a lot of sort of misconceptions swirling around this brain scan you've got.

Speaker 22:43 Yeah, no, I hate all that stuff. That's just all from the film Free Solo.

Steven Bartlett 22:46 Yeah.

Speaker 22:46 It was, like, too short of a scene in the film. They needed a little more. They needed to let it breathe, you know, explain things a little better, I think.

Steven Bartlett 22:52 So they scanned a control subject, a- another person, scanned you, looked at the amygdala in your brain, and that the conclusion that a lot of people have arrived at is that you don't experience fear because when they look at these two brain scans, your amygdala is lighting up less when you're shown scary images, basically, right?

Speaker 23:08 But, like, shown just this image, like, what does that even mean? Like, my brain's purple, and his brain is orange. You're like, [chuckles] you're like: "What does that mean?" Like, I don't know. But no, I mean, the, the thing is, though, and this is what I wish was explained in the film better, is that this is... We're being shown black-and-white photos inside an fMRI. So you're inside a sealed metal tube, you're totally safe, you're physically safe and comfortable, and you're being shown black-and-white photos. And so to me, obviously, that's not gonna light up the fear response in my brain, 'cause you're looking at pictures, [chuckles] you're like: "Who cares? I'm totally safe." But in a control subject, uh, you know, apparently, your brain sort of responds to images one way or another. But I'm kinda like, I've been climbing for 20 years, so I've been, like, scared quite a lot, and you're kind of like, well, black-and-white photos start to lose, lose their edge if you've been scared all the time for 20 years. [chuckles]

Steven Bartlett 23:50 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 23:50 So it's like, obviously, that's not gonna trigger much.

Steven Bartlett 23:52 Yeah, and I imagine everybody in their life can think of a s- a scenario where they have mastery that would sc- like, a stand-up comedian looking out at a stage probably wouldn't be as scared as me-

Speaker 24:01 Yeah

Steven Bartlett 24:02 ... uh, 'cause that would, that would terrify me. Um, so a- again, this is not necessarily some sort of neurological deficiency.

Speaker 24:08 No, I mean, I think the real takeaway is that I have an amygdala, and it works.... mm-hmm, you know what I mean? Like, 'cause I think if, if the results had shown that I was missing my amygdala, then, then I would have all kinds of- I would have died already at youth, 'cause I wouldn't be able to function as a, as a human, basically. But, you know, had it shown something like that, where there are, like, structural differences or, like, some real change, but this is basically just showing that after 20 years of conditioning, I respond differently than an average person. And you're like, "Yeah, no kidding." Like, if you put a monk into an fMRI, their brain responds totally differently than an average person as well.

Steven Bartlett 24:37 Which I actually think is a really inspiring conclusion because it means that we can all-

Speaker 24:41 Mm-hmm

Steven Bartlett 24:42 ... grasp our fears better. And even, you know, people won't know this about me, but 10 years ago, I sat down on camera with my friend Ash in his apartment to record a two-minute video, and as I sat there, I couldn't-- I was so scared I couldn't get the words out. So you actually, in this two-minute video that comes out, you see it go from night and day in the background just because we did that many cuts over seven hours to try and get me to say two minutes on camera. And obviously, after 10 years of being on camera, I can now speak without shitting myself, and I imagine my brain state looks significantly different-

Speaker 25:08 Totally

Steven Bartlett 25:08 ... because of that exposure therapy.

Speaker 25:09 Totally. Yeah, you should do the fMRI.

Steven Bartlett 25:12 [laughs]

Speaker 25:12 You should do... Yeah, you should've done 10 years ago, 'cause then you'd have your control, [chuckles] and then you'd do it now, and it'd be totally different.

Steven Bartlett 25:18 But also, the psychologists I've sat with all confirm this. They talk about exposure therapy.

Speaker 25:21 Yeah. And, and I went through exactly the same thing with public speaking. Like, I was always so afraid of public speaking. I was also very shy and, like, s- just not, like... It was terrifying. And now, because of the free solo film tour and, you know, all the public things I've done since then, I'm, like, basically fine. You know, it's like you still get a little nervous, but it's, like, basically easy now, and you're kind of like, "Well, that's a total change."

Steven Bartlett 25:43 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 25:43 It's like obviously there's a tremendous capacity for humans to learn.

Steven Bartlett 25:47 People talk to you about fear all the time because, I mean, your work-

Speaker 25:51 'Cause climbing's really freaking scary.

Steven Bartlett 25:53 It's scary.

Speaker 25:53 It makes sense.

Steven Bartlett 25:53 Yeah.

Speaker 25:53 It's totally understandable. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 25:55 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 25:56 And they also realize, I think, at some deep level, that the thing holding them back from who they think they want to be or who they aspire to be is fear. Often, it's judgment of someone else, it's taking a risk.

Speaker 26:05 Totally.

Steven Bartlett 26:06 So you've become, for many people, they're like, "Tell me, tell me how to overcome."

Speaker 26:11 Yeah. Well, I think that everyone's like: What's your hack to overcome fear? And you're like: There's no hack. You just get really freaking scared over and over for so long [chuckles] , and eventually, it's not that scary anymore. But I will say that that's, like, a very enduring way to overcome your fear. It's like if you're willing to go through that process, then you are actually unafraid, you know, because, like, you can do like hacks. I mean, you can, you can, like, crank up loud rock music and just go for it, you know? Like, and there are plenty of examples of that in, in what I'd call gravity-assisted sports. Like, say, if you're gonna jump a cliff on skis, like, you can get to the edge and be like, "This is really scary," and then be like, "Three, two, one, do it!" And just, like, go. In climbing, you can't really do that as much because it's so slow. Like, when you climb, you make one move, and then you make another move, and then you're like, "Do I still wanna be here?" Like, basically, fear creeps in a lot more.

Steven Bartlett 26:55 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 26:55 But sort of in gravity-assisted sports, you can have more of that moment where you just, like, overcome your fear, and then it happens. You know, like making a big drop in a kayak or, like, skis or things like that, whereas, like, once you commit, it's happening one way or another. Anyway, there's a lot to get into with, like... [chuckles]

Steven Bartlett 27:08 No, but I, I, I mean, I want to get into it. I, I watched a video of you climbing Half Dome, I think it was.

Speaker 27:13 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:13 And it, it looks like you got scared halfway up, or-

Speaker 27:16 Yeah, yeah. Well, so that video is actually filmed later, so the voiceover in that video is me talking about the experience of me free soloing when I was totally alone, and I did get really scared on Half Dome, and I had this whole sor- somewhat traumatic climbing experience near the top of the wall. But then when we went back to film it, I had a different traumatic [chuckles] experience while we were filming. Less traumatic, but, uh, but, like, very scary for a moment, and they got that on camera, so they basically, in the film, they just cut the two together as like a-

Steven Bartlett 27:39 Oh

Speaker 27:39 ... 'cause it shows me, like, being really scared.

Steven Bartlett 27:41 What's Half Dome to start with, and then what was the traumatic experience?

Speaker 27:44 Yeah, so Half Dome, for anyone who hasn't seen, is, uh, is this just totally amazing wall in Yosemite. It's a two-thousand-foot granite face. Actually, um, it's the North Face logo. It's, uh-

Steven Bartlett 27:53 Oh.

Speaker 27:53 It's freaking... It's-- That's Half Dome.

Steven Bartlett 27:54 Oh, okay.

Speaker 27:55 Yeah, so it's, like, an iconic wall in Yosemite. Um, it looks like half of a dome, but actually, it's more like a hockey puck just shoved in. It's actually a full dome, depending how you look at it, but the northwest face is vertical for two thousand feet. It's incredible. And so I free solo-- That was one of the first, like, major free solos I did in 2008, um, and one of the things that sort of made me a professional climber in a way. But when I did the climb, I did the bare minimum preparation. I basically, like, didn't know... It was, it was the biggest thing I'd ever free soloed. I didn't quite know how to, like, go about getting ready for it. Anyway, I, I climbed it and basically hadn't practiced enough, was really freaking scared, got off route, got confused, skipped some stuff, and then at the very top, had this whole moment of extreme panic. [chuckles] You know, basically, like, got up into some stuff and all sort of, like, crumbled mentally and, like, sort of barely managed to finish this upper slab. Like, the hardest part of the climb is, like, right near the top. I was trying to walk across this ledge. Basically, I've walked across that ledge face in and face out, and you-- normally, people hand traverse it or they crawl across it. There are, like, different ways to go across the ledge, and I've done it every which way. And then we were up there filming, and I was like, "Oh, I'm gonna walk it face out," but it turns out when you walk it face out, it's really freaking [chuckles] scary. And so I made it kind of halfway and was like, "Oh, my gosh," and then bailed.

Steven Bartlett 29:04 And when you say you're having, like a, like a crisis in your, your mind, what does... What is that? Is that just, "Oh, my god, what am I..." Like, how does that sound when you panic?

Speaker 29:13 Well, I mean, so in this case, so walking across this ledge, it's like it starts maybe as a foot wide, so your foot is fully on the ledge, and you're shuffling across it, but then, at a certain point, yeah, I mean, that's, that's-

Steven Bartlett 29:23 Put the video, I'll put it on the screen for anyone watching.

Speaker 29:25 Yeah, that's, that's the ledge. But basically, at the narrowest part, your feet are sticking out over the lip of it, and the wall bulges ever so slightly, so it for- forces your back out a little. And so you're basically, like, rocking on your heels with, uh, I don't know, like, a seventeen-hundred-foot drop or something, or eighteen-hundred-foot drop, like, straight down below you. And so, you know, it's, like, pretty, [chuckles] it's pretty intense. Anyway, and so I thought I was gonna walk across it like that, and I made it to the bulging part and was suddenly like, "Oh, my God, this isn't, like, this isn't for me," and then managed to, like, shuffle back and, and change my strategy.

Steven Bartlett 29:57 Is it like panic in your head?

Speaker 29:59 It's not panic, but you're like, "Oh, oh, I made the wrong choice." [chuckles] "Like, this is bad. This is bad," you know? I mean, it's not like full, like, five-alarm bell, like panic, panic, but yeah, you're like, "Oh, I'm so screwed."

Steven Bartlett 30:12 And you have fallen a long, long way before. I was hearing about a time when you were young, and you fell off a, a mountain and called your mother, managed to call your mother and-

Speaker 30:19 Yeah, but that was like sliding down an icy couloir-type thing. It's a little different than, like, free falling off of a cliff. That's like sliding down a mountain. But yeah, I got totally messed up and, and, uh-... Yeah. Yeah, and I've, like, broken my arm several times as a kid, falling off things and, and then with a rope as a climber, you take big falls, like, routinely, you know, when you have protection. That's, like, part of the sport, basically.

Steven Bartlett 30:40 Hmm.

Speaker 30:40 I mean, it's certainly easy to visualize falling 700- you know, when you're, like, standing on a little ledge, and you're just bulging and you're looking down, you're- you know, it's easy to be [chuckles] like, "Oh, my God!" You know, it's like if you just bend forward a little bit, you're just gonna take a swan dive, like, 7,000 feet to the ground.

Steven Bartlett 30:53 The stats in this sport are... I mean, of, of fatalities, uh, how do they compare to other sports?

Speaker 30:59 Uh, safer than you would think. That's the thing, is everyone thinks it seems crazy, but, uh, it's not that crazy. I don't know actual statistics, but I suspect that it's actually pretty comparable to, to skiing or something. You know, because, like, recreational skiers die all the time, like falling in tree wells or, like, going off cliffs by accident or things like that. Climbing is actually surprisingly safe, which is one of the things I love about climbing. I mean, climbing is very-- it's very, uh, sort of binary, where it's like, either you're totally safe or you're gonna die, and the odds of you dying are very, very, very small, but because they're, they're there, they always keep you on. You know what I mean? Like, it basically keeps you alert, but you're never really gonna get hurt.

Steven Bartlett 31:43 Is that including free soloing?

Speaker 31:46 Yeah, I mean, for the most part. I mean, a couple people have died free soloing. I mean, people occasionally die free soloing, for sure, but actually, most of the, the sort of cutting-edge free soloists have not died soloing. They've, like, died in other things.

Steven Bartlett 31:59 I think it was in, in the, um, the documentary on Netflix, um, Free Solo, where one of your colleagues-

Speaker 32:04 Yeah, Tommy-

Steven Bartlett 32:04 ... Tommy-

Speaker 32:04 Tommy is like, "Most free soloists are dead now," um, which is kind of true, but it's slightly mis- misstated. I mean, you know, he's just, like, speaking off the cuff, and it's not, like, strictly true. Like, a couple of the best free soloists have died free soloing, though they died on very easy terrain, but then the majority of other great free soloists have died in sort of climbing-adjacent accidents, like wingsuit BASE jumping and, uh, like, one got swept to sea by a rogue wave.

Steven Bartlett 32:29 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 32:29 Like, while he was out climbing a sea cliff, but he was, like, standing on shore and got swept out to sea. You know, things like that, where you're just kind of like- you know, obviously, they're taking risks in their lives, and they wind up dead, but it's not the way that people think. You know, you see a photo like that, and you're like, "Free soloing, you're gonna die for sure," and you're kind of like, well, people don't actually really die that way. I mean, they, they have. I mean, not to say that it doesn't happen, but way less frequently than people would suspect.

Steven Bartlett 32:52 If I was to try and, like, you know, professionally torture you, and again, I'm not talking any extremes here, but what life would I prescribe you to live?

Speaker 33:01 Oh, being like a finance bro or something, having to, like, just work spreadsheets my whole life. Is that what you mean?

Steven Bartlett 33:05 Yeah.

Speaker 33:05 Like, what, what is my, like, worst... I don't know, something like that. Or honestly, being, like, a choreographer for dance or something [chuckles] like, I just, I couldn't do, like... Or, or being, like, an opera singer. Like, I would just kill myself. I just couldn't do that.

Steven Bartlett 33:19 Why, why would being a finance bro be, like, the worst thing for Alex?

Speaker 33:23 Just the idea of sitting at a computer in a cubicle, just, like, typing. I mean, I'm kind of contrarian. I don't like rules. I don't want to, like, jump through hoops. I don't want to do arbitrary things. Like, I don't want some manager to come and tell me, like, "Oh, you got to file that report again. You, like, missed a line." I'd be like, "You go after," [chuckles] so, you know, I'd just, like, walk out of the building. Like, it's just-- I just, like, don't know if I could take that. I'd be like, "No!"

Steven Bartlett 33:43 But that's, like, how most of the world live. We kind of, we all live in, like, you know-

Speaker 33:46 I just don't know if it's for me. I don't know. I mean, doesn't that just seem... I mean, I had this moment. I've been in New York a couple days, and I, I took the subway down to see some, see some friends, and I was, like, coming out of the tunnel, and it's, like, packed with people, and I was just, like, looking at the ground, and I was, like, just, you know, following someone else's footsteps up this, like, beat-down path of stairs, and I was like, "I couldn't live like this," like, not day in and day out every day. Like, this is just... Like, feeling like you're just doing the exact same thing as everyone else around you. I'm like, "Oh, it seems so, so boring."

Steven Bartlett 34:16 It's funny because so, so many of us look at your life and go, "Wow, that's not very normal," but actually, maybe at a foundational level, you're living a much more normal life than... I mean, you're out in nature, you're moving your body.

Speaker 34:29 Yeah. Yeah, in that, in that way, for sure. I'm, like, going on cool adventures and going out, and I don't know.

Steven Bartlett 34:35 I think that's also part of why the, the, uh, sort of attraction and allure with your life, especially when you watch Free Solo, is you do seem to be a free man in a way where most of us aren't free as such.

Speaker 34:47 Yeah, I mean, well, I think we're all sort of aspiring to that to some extent. I mean, most people see that, though, as, like, they get their vacation for the year, they- they're planning to retire at some point, and then they're gonna have their freedom, and you're kind of like, "Well, I don't know. I mean, maybe you've got to try to live that way as much as possible."

Steven Bartlett 35:00 If, if your, if your young girls came up to you, June and Alice, and said, "Dad, what's- what is a meaningful life? Like, what are the principles of living a, a fulfilling, meaningful life?" Would you give them advice there?

Speaker 35:09 Yeah, yeah. I mean, it'd be a long, rambling, multi-day conversation with them about... But, I mean, following your own goals is, is I think, you know, certainly one of the, the cores of having a meaningful life. Like, having things that you find valuable. I, I mean, really, like, living in line with your values, finding things that are important to you and pursuing them with as much as you can give them.

Steven Bartlett 35:31 When you look at your early... so twenties to thirties, it kind of looks like you're living like a Buddhist a little bit.

Speaker 35:36 I mean, uh, yeah, I went on a, a trip once where they called me the monk. [chuckles] It's, uh, just because I was living such a sort of ascetic lifestyle. I was, like, reading... I've, I've never- I don't drink, and I don't, like, party, and I don't, just for personal preference, whatever. And so I'm just, like, living in my little van and reading books and climbing all the time. [chuckles] Like-

Steven Bartlett 35:55 Have you-

Speaker 35:55 ... Those are the things that I'm into doing, you know? It's like it's... Yeah, it's just doing what you want to do.

Steven Bartlett 36:00 Have you ever been depressed or...

Speaker 36:03 Yeah, probably not like deep, clinical depression, but there's certainly periods from time to time where you're just like, "What am I doing? Or why? Or what are my goals?" Like, you know, what's... And I think to me, the most depressing thing is that, you know, I've put, like, my whole life into climbing, like, trying to be the best you can be all the time, and sometimes you put tons of effort in, and you just don't see results. Like, for whatever reason, you just suck. You're like, "I'm trying so hard, and I'm just, like, not as good as I want to be." And like, that's challenging, you know, but that's-... I mean, everybody faces that to some extent, where you're like: "I'm working hard at a thing, but I'm just not achieving the results that I want."

Steven Bartlett 36:36 And between the, between that, the sort of that period of no man's land, between twenty and thirty, where your career hasn't taken off yet, the n- documentary's not out, you've not climbed Taipei. How much money are you earning from climbing?

Speaker 36:49 I mean, the first- my first couple of years, my sponsorship through The North Face was like, te- uh, I think my first year was like 10K a year. I was like, "This is amazing," because I was living in my car. And, um, you know, making ten grand when you live by yourself in a van is, like, more than you need, basically. Um, it obviously went up beyond that at, at some point, but it was, you know, like in the ten to a hundred range for the first- for the whole... Yeah, for years.

Steven Bartlett 37:14 Then at some point it increases.

Speaker 37:15 Yeah, and then it increases. I mean, then Free Solo is obviously, like, a big thing.

Steven Bartlett 37:19 Yeah.

Speaker 37:19 And that sort of opened up all these opportunities, uh, because then I started doing corporate speaking and stuff like that, and the-- I mean, as I'm sure you know, that's just like a whole different world. And so then you go from just, like, making some money from sponsors to, like, making money from, from other corporations, and they're like, okay, now you're making some money.

Steven Bartlett 37:35 One of the things when I was, I was hearing you talk about some of your incredible climbing stories is, um, I was trying to understand what role visualization or, or your preparation plays and how that's, like, transferable to, to me and my life.

Speaker 37:48 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 37:48 We talked a little bit about just how much preparation you did for something like El Cap, but you, you-- it sounds like you really break down the challenge into smaller bits-

Speaker 37:57 Mm-hmm

Steven Bartlett 37:57 ... and then really go through those, those individual steps, whereas a lot of people would just look at El Cap and go, "Oh, my God!" They'd be terrified, and they'd say, "Impossible."

Speaker 38:04 Yeah, which is fair. I mean, I spent years looking at El Cap and being like: "That's too big. That's impossible." And then, you know, after years of that, I kept hoping that I would look at it and it would, like, look easy somehow, and I'd be like: "Cool, now I'm going to do it." And it just never looked easy. And so then finally I was like: "Okay, I'm going to have to, like, put some real work into it." And then I started slowly breaking it down, and, and, and then once you, like, break it into pieces and start working on the pieces, then you're kind of like, okay, it starts to feel more reasonable.

Steven Bartlett 38:29 Break it into pieces and start working on the pieces. What does that mean in terms of climbing? So if we-- I mean, I've got this, this, uh, model here of-

Speaker 38:36 Yeah, Taipei 101.

Steven Bartlett 38:38 Taipei. So, and, you know, and this is also a metaphor for any challenge I have in my life.

Speaker 38:41 Okay, but this is actually perfect because it's right here.

Steven Bartlett 38:43 Yeah.

Speaker 38:43 So I scouted this in September of this year. I did the climb in January or whatever. In September, we went and, um... Well, we had to, like, one, make sure it was possible before you sort of, like, commit to it, doing a whole TV program [chuckles] You're kind of like, "Let's make sure we can do this." And then they also had to get all this sort of marketing material. You, like, get the photos with the building, like all the stuff that becomes the trailer and whatever. And so we went in September to sort of, like, do the prep. And so we- I basically checked out all the different pieces, and so

Speaker 39:09 anywhere where you see it looking a little bit different, you know, it's like this whole bottom part is like a low-angle slab. It's, like, punctuated with these two little ruies, these little, like, coin things or whatever, the clouds or whatever they are. Um, then there are the dragons on the corners. These are all overhanging. Like, each of these eight blocks is, like, a big overhanging thing. It feels a little bit different. Then you get up here, there's, like, these balconies. These are actually overhanging... Like, basically each little segment of this is quite different. You know, obviously, on this model, it, like, looks, looks the same, but, um, each transition between the different pieces is like a thing, so I checked out all of them with ropes. And, and yeah, you just go piece by piece all the way up the whole thing.

Steven Bartlett 39:42 And you hadn't ever climbed it before we saw it on Netflix Live?

Speaker 39:45 Well, I hadn't free soloed it, no-

Steven Bartlett 39:47 Free soloed it

Speaker 39:47 ... but I had climbed it, uh, I'd climbed all the pieces with a rope, for sure. I'd, like, checked out the different things.

Steven Bartlett 39:52 Okay, so you, so you, you look at these as individual challenges-

Speaker 39:56 Yeah

Steven Bartlett 39:56 ... every step.

Speaker 39:56 Yeah, it's like you go-- Well, even, like, just getting off the ground, the first move is a slightly different move than any of the other moves. You have to, like, jump up to a thing and, like, press it out. Um, then climbing over these little clouds is a different thing. Each dragon is a different thing. Yeah, I mean, it's just... You know, there's a surprising amount of complexity to it. And so our first on the scout, you know, I had a note on my phone, and I'm just, like, writing down all the different-- basically, I'm trying to learn it the way you study anything, where I'm just, like, making notes and sort of, like, from floor fifty-four to seventy-two, it feels like this. I climb the southeast corner, the left arete, you know, just, and then, yeah, just writing it all down.

Steven Bartlett 40:29 And I mean, there's this famous photo of you hanging with your leg.

Speaker 40:31 Yeah, that's this. These are the rings up here.

Steven Bartlett 40:33 So you're hanging, you're hanging here, from here with your leg.

Speaker 40:36 Yeah. [chuckles]

Steven Bartlett 40:36 Now, I, uh, this is really a question of endurance. Like, how do you plan to have the energy? Like, how do you know if you're going to have enough energy when you're up here, when you're just planning it?

Speaker 40:47 I mean, well, that's, this is what makes it exciting, because you can't be sure. But, you know, I've done a lot of climbing in my life, [chuckles] and I've done a lot of climbs that were, like, twenty-four hours. I mean, I've-- I had this experience in Patagonia once. It was a fifty-four-hour push, with, like, the last twenty hours, we hiked without food, um, because we got caught in a storm. It's a whole crazy story. But basically, you know, I've had a lot of experience in my life where I've done hard exercise for more than twenty-four hours, and so this, you know, I expected to take me somewhere in the hour-and-a-half, two-hour range, and I'm kind of like, yeah, I mean, I'll be tired after two hours of exercise, but I'm not going to be exhausted. You know what I mean? Like, I know that I have a much deeper reserve than that.

Steven Bartlett 41:22 So much of the conversation around, um, after you'd done this, or some of the conversation was around whether this was a harder challenge than El Capitan.

Speaker 41:29 No, no, it's obviously much easier. I mean, I'm doing it on live television, you know? It's like, obviously, it's easier. But what makes it cool is that it's different, it's fun, it's challenging. Like, for me, it's really, like, in my sweet spot, where it is challenging enough... Like, it's, it's not easy, you know what I mean? Like, saying easier than El Cap, it doesn't... You know, El Cap was, like, a ten-year life project that I did in absolute secrecy. I did it on my terms, on the correct day. After years of effort, I had failed attempts. I had-- You know what I mean? Like, El Cap was, like, an all-consuming life project for years. Kind of like, obviously, you can't do that for live TV. It's like you just can't put... Anyway-

Steven Bartlett 42:07 Mm-hmm

Speaker 42:07 ... but this was very much in my sweet spot, where you're like, oh, it's hard enough that it's, that it's hard. Like, it's cool, you know? Like, it's fun, it's interesting, the climbing is engaging. It's, uh, you know, gave me something to train for for months. It's like, it's super fun, but it's not, you know, it's not like the absolute limit of what I can do, because you just can't do that on live TV. I mean, if nothing else, so I was climbing the southeast arete because it gets good morning light, and it looks beautiful, and it's, like, great for filming.... but if I was trying to do the absolute most cutting-edge climb I could do, I'd be climbing the northwest arete, because it'd be full shade, because it'd be good, better conditions, you know, it'd be colder. Like, you just don't wanna be in the sun. It makes your skin... You know, it makes you hot and stuff.

Steven Bartlett 42:41 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 42:41 And so, you know, just things like that, you're like, well, if you're doing it for TV and you're trying to broadcast it, then you want it to look good. But, like, if you're trying to do it for hard climbing in good conditions, you do it in full shade.

Steven Bartlett 42:53 And Netflix had a, a ten-second delay just in case you fell.

Speaker 42:56 I mean, I'm sure part of it's in case you fall, but part of it's like, what if somebody unplugs one of the things? Or you know what I mean, like-

Steven Bartlett 43:01 Mm.

Speaker 43:01 ... it's so complicated. There's so much stuff going on, it's insane.

Steven Bartlett 43:04 Was there a hardest part of this, a part y- where you were at all, at all nervous?

Speaker 43:08 The thing I was most nervous about when I started was, were the bamboo boxes, like, doing these eight overhanging segments, 'cause they're just so relentlessly the same move, and it's just, it's pretty physical. Like, you get tired, for sure. I mean, the actual physical hardest moves, um, [chuckles] like actually randomly, one of these corners up here would've been quite a hard move, but there was this freaking security camera bolted onto the wall, and so you use the security camera as this handhold.

Steven Bartlett 43:30 [chuckles]

Speaker 43:30 It was really pretty cool. And it was, like, bolted on with these giant bolts, so it, like, looked super safe, and, you know, it was, like, very robust and secure. But it would've been kind of like this extreme jump, which I wasn't... You know, it's probably possible, but would've been, like, a major thing. But instead, you just reef off the security camera, [chuckles] and I was like, "That's so cool." It was, uh... So there were a few things like that, like individual moves that are kind of muscly, but overall, it's the, the stamina, like, the challenge of doing this over and over for hundreds of feet that was the hardest thing.

Steven Bartlett 43:58 Do you have a conversation with your, with your girls-

Speaker 44:00 No

Steven Bartlett 44:00 ... and your wife before you go and do something like this, about just in case you don't come back? I know the-

Speaker 44:05 Not with the kids, 'cause they're too young, and it, like, they wouldn't... They don't understand it anyway. Um, and not with her, because she came with me to Taipei, or she was there for, like, the whole end of it. I went a little bit early, so I could adapt to the time zone more and, like, feel better. But, um, but basically, she was with me, so, you know, like, we went to bed together that night and, like, woke up that morning and had breakfast together. So it didn't feel like a big goodbye, you know, it was kind of... Actually, she was with me at the base. Like, I mean, we did the start together, and then I literally was like, "Okay, bye," and walked over and did the thing and started going to the top. So we were only apart for, like, an hour and a half [chuckles] of the whole, you know?

Steven Bartlett 44:34 Mm.

Speaker 44:34 And I saw her through the window a couple times, and so it felt like she was just there, having the whole experience with me.

Steven Bartlett 44:39 Did you look at other buildings in the world, like, like the Burj?

Speaker 44:42 Some, yeah. I've scouted the Burj twice over the years. Um, back when this project... This project almost happened in 2013 or something, and so I'd scouted some buildings then. The Burj was just a little too extreme. It's just too hard. But someday, maybe,

Speaker 44:56 who knows?

Steven Bartlett 44:57 'Cause it's what? Like, there's not enough... It's too slippery? Um-

Speaker 44:59 Um, yeah, super slippery. Also, it's just the way the holds are. Like, I mean, the beauty of Taipei 101 is that the holds, like, they're good things to hold. They're close together, and you're just like, "Er," and you can hold them, and you feel secure. The Burj, I can barely span tip to tip to, like, reach between the holds.

Steven Bartlett 45:13 Wow!

Speaker 45:14 And so then your face is, like, right against the glass, and you're, like, holding on like this.

Steven Bartlett 45:18 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 45:18 And it's pretty hard. And you have to do the same thing 112 times in a row. [chuckles] It's, like, pretty hard to do it once, then you have to do it 100 times. You're like, "It's kinda hard."

Steven Bartlett 45:25 The other thing that I saw, um, online after you'd climbed it, about one or two days after, everyone talk- started talking about how much you were paid to do it.

Speaker 45:31 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 45:32 I think 'cause you did an interview where you said-

Speaker 45:33 Well, it's funny, there were some quotes that were kind of taken out of context, because, yeah, a New York Times reporter asked me how much I was getting paid, and I was kind of like, "Ah, I don't want to talk about it, because it's kind of embarrassing," 'cause all my friends, it's, like, an embarrassingly high amount for my community. Like, in the climbing world, if you're getting paid to rock climb, you're like, "Great success! You're getting paid to climb. That's insane," you know? And so I thought it was, like, sort of an embarrassingly large amount, where I'm like, "Oh, this is kinda weird." But then he sort of poked around, and he started comparing it to, like, boxing matches and stuff, where people get paid, like, $20 million to, like, fight someone boxing.

Steven Bartlett 46:02 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 46:03 And I was like, "Well, no, compared to that, it's an embarrassingly small amount," you know? It's like... Or if you compare it to, like, Major League Baseball contracts and things, then it's like, yeah, it's an embarrassingly small amount. But I was never complaining. Like, I thought it was great. I, I mean, I would do it for free. I mean, I've paid money to go up to the observation deck. The observation deck is way up here at the top, and the view is insane, and the city's incredible. And, you know, it's, like, 20 bucks or whatever to take the world's fastest elevator to the top of the building. And, you know, I've done that in the Burj as well, where you, like, pay the money, and you go to the very top of the building, and the view is insane. It's like, I do that, like, anywhere I travel, like the Sears, the Willis Tower or whatever, the Sears Tower in Chicago. Like, I've paid the money to go to the observation deck and see the view, and it's so cool. And I'm kind of like, if someone's willing to pay me to climb up to the observation deck, that's freaking cool. [chuckles]

Steven Bartlett 46:45 Yeah. I think it's because w- people, again, they're sh- they're say... They're- they believe that this is, you're risking your entire life.

Speaker 46:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 46:51 And, and so, yeah.

Speaker 46:52 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 46:52 They don't think of boxers as risking their entire life in the same way.

Speaker 46:55 Except they kind of are.

Steven Bartlett 46:56 Unless... They are, yeah.

Speaker 46:57 And-

Steven Bartlett 46:57 But they don't see it as that.

Speaker 46:58 I know. Of course, they don't see it as that, and that's totally understandable. I get that. But I see it as, like, anybody going into the boxing ring, and particularly if they're very mismatched, [chuckles] you know, like, you would think that there is some-

Steven Bartlett 47:10 Mm

Speaker 47:10 ... real chance of grievous injury or, like, death. [chuckles]

Steven Bartlett 47:13 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 47:13 You know, it's like, it's insane. And so I think that people overr- the, the thing is, I think people that don't know anything about anything, like, don't know anything about climbing, look at me climbing a building, they're like, "It's 50/50 if he lives or dies, like, no idea." And you're like, "No." If you put this in the context of all the things that I've climbed in my life, I felt very confident that I wouldn't fall off the building. You know, I was like... You know, obviously, it's never 100%, because, like, whatever, it's life. But, you know, it feels like 100%. You're like, "Oh, there's no chance I'm falling off this

Speaker 47:40 building."

Steven Bartlett 47:40 The rumor is, whether you got 500K to climb it from Netflix.

Speaker 47:44 Throughout my whole, like, you know, quote-unquote, "career" as a climber, I basically have never worried about money, and I've always just tried to do the thing and let it all play out at the end. And so I've done a ton of work for free over the years. Like, uh, like, actually, we were talking about that Half Dome film earlier, where I was like, I'm shuffling along. It's like, I did that film for free. I did tons of films like that for free, uh, just because you're kind of like, "Oh, it's part of being a professional climber, and I get to go climbing, and I'm up with my friends, filming on a thing." You're just like, "You're working for free. It's fine." But by doing all that stuff for free, like, I never s- I never stressed the day rate, never... You know, I was like, "I don't need to get paid to go have fun with my friends on a wall. Like, it's fine." But as a result of that film, you know, a year or two later, they wanna do an, a photoshoot up there for the cover of National Geographic, and so you just wind up in other things. And then, and then that got seen, and I wound up, uh, being profiled by 60 Minutes, which actually was one of the first sort of career inflection points. It was, like, this 60 Minutes profile in 2011 or something.... but basically, I've done a ton of work for free over my life as all part of, like, it's all part of the game, and I just love playing the game. And so you just, like, let it play out. And it's funny 'cause with this building, a lot of people thought that I was sort of underpaid by it. But afterward, uh, you know, some people have approached me about some bonuses and some other work stuff, and, like, basically, a lot has already sort of happened, and it's only been a couple weeks since the building. And I'm kind of like: "You know, you don't need to get paid for the thing itself, 'cause it always works, basically." I'm kind of like... I don't know. I'm like: "Don't get hung up on how much you get paid. Just do the thing, make sure it's freaking rad, and it all sorts itself out."

Steven Bartlett 49:13 Yeah. Yeah, that- I mean, that's also been, like, um, the f- that's completely true for my life as well. Even this podcast, like, when we started the podcast in my kitchen, I mean, this is a replica of my kitchen, and Jack was here. There was no pa- there was no payment when we started it.

Speaker 49:27 Yeah, exactly.

Steven Bartlett 49:28 But we were just doing a thing.

Speaker 49:28 Yeah, you make it as good as you can-

Steven Bartlett 49:30 Yeah

Speaker 49:30 ... and eventually, it all sort of works, and you're like, "Cool."

Steven Bartlett 49:32 I've I, I-- Because that, that, that pattern you've just described has played out for fifteen years of my life, I now... And again, my, my CFO and my commercial director might not love me saying this, but they know this about me, is and we even talked about it recently with a particular project, is like, don't let the inability to see where the money's gonna come from in the near term stop you pursuing something that you think is gonna create value. Because history shows that actually value, like, giving value out into the world, precedes the m- the ec- the economics.

Speaker 50:03 Totally.

Steven Bartlett 50:04 And so, uh, it, it happened fifteen years of my life, where I... I remember when I started the social media business and people-- some- a guy sat me down in Google in London and explained to me why I would never make money from that business. He, like, he did the math for me, and the math was solid.

Speaker 50:17 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 50:17 He was like: "If you do one, da, da, da, da, you won't make any money." And I was like-

Speaker 50:21 You're like: "Yeah, but I don't think that's true," you know? You're like, "Uh..."

Steven Bartlett 50:23 You just... And you have no evidence, but-

Speaker 50:25 Yeah, but you just know it's gonna work.

Steven Bartlett 50:26 Yeah.

Speaker 50:26 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 50:26 The Uber CEO sat here with me yesterday in that seat.

Speaker 50:29 Oh, yeah?

Steven Bartlett 50:29 And he was telling me, he was like: "The thing is, there's this thing called Jevons paradox, where when something-

Speaker 50:33 Yeah, efficiency.

Steven Bartlett 50:34 Yeah, when becoming things more efficient, whatever, people think of things in linear progression-

Speaker 50:38 Mm

Steven Bartlett 50:38 ... but actually, there's exponential progression. So when we launched Uber, more people started taking taxis, so all of the models about how big this market were, were all wrong.

Speaker 50:46 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 50:46 And I find the same in, in that, and I found the same in podcasting when we started about five years ago, was, yeah, like you sat me down and go: "Well, Steve, CPMs, you're gonna have to be getting a million downloads to make, like, to earn a living."

Speaker 50:57 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 50:57 Like, mm, but-

Speaker 50:59 You're like, "Wait and see."

Steven Bartlett 51:00 Yeah, like-

Speaker 51:00 It'll catch up

Steven Bartlett 51:01 ... let it do its thing and let it, let it happen. And that's-

Speaker 51:02 I mean, you're a prime example of that.

Steven Bartlett 51:04 Yeah. It's always better to focus your energy on being the best at the thing that you're trying to do than figuring out how to monetise it or, m- you know, make money off of it. It's like... I don't know. I mean, my whole, like, life as a climber, I've always tried to focus on, like, how do you send? Which in climbing terms means, like, do the hard thing. Like, you always focus on sending, and then everything else follows.

Steven Bartlett 51:24 [paper rustling]

Speaker 51:29 Whoa, what's that on your face?

Steven Bartlett 51:31 This is, uh, my Bon Charge face mask. I've been wearing this for some time now. They're a sponsor of the podcast. I put this on for fifteen, twenty minutes a day. I can sit here in the chair and wear it. Boosts my collagen production, helps with fine line blemishes, my complexion gets better, and then people, more people listen to the podcast 'cause I, I look better. Professional-grade equipment in such a small box. It's non-invasive, and having sat here with so many of the world's leading health professionals, there's various things that I repeatedly hear work and some things I'm a bit sceptical about. This is one of the things that almost all of my guests on this show have confirmed works. It is really, really, really effective. And they offer fast, free shipping worldwide with easy returns and exchanges, and you'll also get a one-year warranty on all of their products. And they're HSA and FSA eligible, giving you tax-free savings up to forty percent. And you can get twenty percent off when you order through my link at boncharge.com/doac. That's boncharge.com/doac. The deal applies sitewide. [paper rustling] I've had so many founders speak to me and say: "Why didn't this particular ad that I ran on this platform work for me?" Maybe the copy wasn't good, the creative wasn't strong, but usually the problem is they're not having the right conversation because that ad never reached the right person. And if you're in B2B marketing, that is much of the game. And this is where LinkedIn Ads solves that problem for you. Their targeting is ridiculously specific. You can target by job title, seniority, company size, industry, and even someone's skill set. And their network includes over a billion professionals. About a hundred and thirty million of them are decision-makers. So when you use LinkedIn Ads, you're putting your brand in front of the right people. And LinkedIn Ads also drive the highest B2B return on ad spend across all ad networks, in my experience. If you wanna give them a try, head over to linkedin.com/diary, and when you spend two hundred and fifty dollars on your first LinkedIn Ads campaign, you'll get an extra two hundred and fifty dollar credit from me for the next one. That's linkedin.com/diary. Terms and conditions apply. [paper rustling] It's funny, you, you talking about mortality earlier on, and, um,

Steven Bartlett 53:32 I think i- in the last couple of years, my mortality, like, realizing that I'm gonna die someday, has been such a, a wonderful thing to, to really remind myself of on, like-

Speaker 53:39 Mm

Steven Bartlett 53:39 ... a frequent basis.

Speaker 53:41 What, uh, how come?

Steven Bartlett 53:42 Just because... Okay, so there's many things. One of them is, um, [lips smack] the whole idea of, like, sunk cost bias-

Speaker 53:51 Mm

Steven Bartlett 53:52 ... where you become successful at a thing, and you- and now you have something to lose, so people go into a state of loss aversion-

Speaker 53:57 Totally

Steven Bartlett 53:57 ... where they start to protect what they have.

Speaker 53:59 Totally.

Steven Bartlett 53:59 And this narrows your life in a way where you stop taking challenges, stop taking risks, stop doing new things. And the other thing, generally, about knowing you're gonna die and really, like, reminding yourself of that, is it liberates you from getting caught up and worrying about things that, in the grand scheme of, like, cosmic reality-

Speaker 54:13 Don't really matter

Steven Bartlett 54:13 ... are, like, totally inconsequential.

Speaker 54:15 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:16 I was, I was hearing someone say the other day, like: "Do you know the, the name of your great-grandfather? Do you know, do you know his first name?"

Speaker 54:22 Not really.

Steven Bartlett 54:23 "And do you know the, like, the life they lived and what they were worried about and how they were embarrassed and their shame?"

Speaker 54:28 Yeah, exactly. No, you don't know any of that.

Steven Bartlett 54:29 And the point is, like, if you don't even know your own family's- [chuckles]

Speaker 54:32 Yeah. Yeah

Steven Bartlett 54:33 ... bullshit anymore-

Speaker 54:33 Like, nobody else cares, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:34 But even, like, extremely famous people, e- a couple of weeks after they trend on Twitter, and then-... a week later, everyone just, like, gets on with their life again.

Speaker 54:40 Totally. Well, I'm already experiencing that with, with this stuff. You know, like, the building was, like, insane for a moment, but now it's the Olympics, and there's a lot going on in the news cycle, and it's like the world's moved on.

Steven Bartlett 54:49 Mm.

Speaker 54:49 And I'm like, "Great, I'll go back to just, like, being at home with my family and climbing as much as I can."

Steven Bartlett 54:53 Being at home with your family, you said earlier that when you were in that van for ten years, you wanted a girlfriend.

Speaker 54:58 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:58 Now, I'm not being funny, but people that fit your profile and, uh, to some degree, people that fit my profile, struggle in intimate relationships for a variety of reasons, and I think I actually saw this in the documentary when I watched Free Solo.

Speaker 55:11 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 55:11 I saw you had a partner at the time. There was an accident on the cliff side, where you fell, and she was supposed to be protecting you.

Speaker 55:16 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 55:18 And generally, I just saw someone who probably is more on the, um, less affectionate, more commitment-avoidant side of life. Is that accurate?

Speaker 55:26 I don't know about commitment avoidant, because actually I have had long-term girlfriends and things, but, but yeah, definitely I'm, like, less expressive. I, I'm less emotionally intelligent than my wife.

Steven Bartlett 55:35 Has she ever given you feedback that she wishes you were more emotionally, uh, available? I mean, I get that.

Speaker 55:42 I mean, yeah, yeah, in, in different words perhaps, but yeah, basically.

Steven Bartlett 55:48 Sanni-

Speaker 55:49 Yeah, Sanni.

Steven Bartlett 55:49 -is her name.

Speaker 55:50 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 55:51 She wrote a letter.

Speaker 55:52 Oh, gosh!

Steven Bartlett 55:53 That's funny because the first two words are, "Oh, gosh, an intimate letter out loud."

Speaker 55:57 Oh, gosh. [laughing]

Steven Bartlett 55:58 [laughing]

Speaker 55:59 She does, she does know me.

Steven Bartlett 56:01 "Obviously, this is your worst nightmare," she said.

Speaker 56:03 Yes, she knows me so well. [chuckles]

Steven Bartlett 56:06 "But we all have to do scary things sometimes, Alex."

Speaker 56:08 Ah, [laughing] my coach.

Steven Bartlett 56:11 [laughing] She said, "I remember when you read a book once about a woman who said she was less affected by emotions than most people. For her entire life, people tried to convince her that she was wrong, that she was suppressing her feelings, but at the end of the day, she just wasn't. As you were reading, you turned to me and said something similar, something like, 'Everyone wants to believe that I'm burying all these things, these feelings, deep inside, but I'm just not.' And I laughed, and I joked, 'Don't worry, I know you're dead inside.' If I remember correctly, you gave me a hug. But I've thought about this conversation a lot because, as the person married to you, I spend a lot of time trying to understand you, and while there obviously are emotions that drive you, I was mostly joking about the dead inside part. I do think you are far less affected by some feelings like anxiety, fear, shame, guilt, or self-doubt than many of us. But the longer I know you, the more I see an ocean of something else hiding beneath the surface. Filling the space that would normally be taken up by all these feelings is the ability to truly see things. You move through the world like a hawk, while the rest of us are lost in thought. As a climber, you can see the way up a rock face, the climbability of a building, or the layered history of a mountain range. As a father, you notice the quiet, intrinsic desires of your daughters or the chores that need doing around the house, and as a friend, you see the raw potential in every person that you meet. Sometimes this is the hardest thing about you. Nothing goes unnoticed, neither the strengths nor the weaknesses, the moments of dedication or the moments of laziness. You are practical and blunt in your assessment of your choices and our lives, but that's also because you see us, and paying attention is love. Your ability to see the world so clearly allows you to also appreciate it more clearly, and that is a special form of your love. Perhaps there's a well of emotion in there after all, but, but for the purposes of this letter, Alex, I want to give you your gift back to you and tell you what, what I see, particularly in the last four years since we had kids, because I think the way you move through the world with us is a unique love story. I see you rushing down the trail from the climbing area, so you can get back in time for dinner with me and the girls. I see you flying the red-eye, so you can be home a day sooner. I see you cramming in your gym session, even when you have a huge goal on the horizon, so that I have time for my workout, too. I see you pushing your body to the absolute limit during the day but still managing to stay awake long enough to chat to me at night. I see you taking on an extra day of travel just to convince someone with money to donate to your foundation and help save the planet. I see you adjusting your whole training schedule for work opportunities in order to provide a wonderful life for me and the girls. I see the insane juggling act you do every day to not only be a great athlete but a great dad and husband. I know it's not easy, but I see it, and I appreciate it. We love you as you are, Alex. Not overly emotional, but present, committed, and always seeing what others miss. Yours, Sanni."

Speaker 59:36 She's very astute. I was like, that's... I was like, that's why I married her, you know? [chuckles] I don't know.

Steven Bartlett 59:45 She's very astute.

Speaker 59:47 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 59:50 I learnt a lot about you from reading this.

Speaker 59:51 Hmm. What do you think?

Steven Bartlett 59:54 You know, we all show our love in different ways, and sometimes I think the conventional way that l- the world tries to measure love is through the, like, verbal expression of it, and romantic gestures, and those kinds of things. But there's a- another type of person who often struggles, I think, in, in what life's expectations of what love looks like, who show it through acts of service.

Speaker 1:00:16 That was, that was literally one of our last big arguments about something like in the other night, not like a total blowout, but basically, she was sort of like: "I just need more, you know, of the verbal kind." And I was kind of like: "I'm literally doing all the things." And I always sort of say, you know, "Actions speak louder than words." I'm kinda like, "If you're doing all the things, you're doing the correct things, you don't need to talk about them because you're doing the things," you know? And that was basically a back and forth. I mean, the... You know, I took her point that, like, occasionally, you have to say the right thing, too.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:43 Well, I have the same-... the same argument on repeat with my fiancée.

Speaker 1:00:48 Hmm. She needs the words, too.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:49 Yeah, she has, like, a different language. She's speaking Spanish, I'm speaking French.

Speaker 1:00:52 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:53 And th- also, by the way, I have to say, at some deep level, again, because of my early contacts, where, like you, I wished my parents would break up.

Speaker 1:01:01 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:01 I wished they would just get a divorce because the model of love I saw was not a happy one.

Speaker 1:01:04 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:05 I think at some deep level, I have a commitment problem or an intimacy problem, where even growing up, say, calling someone my best friend somewhat made me cringe.

Speaker 1:01:12 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:13 Like, saying, saying affectionate words to someone, at some deep level, made me feel deeply uncomfortable.

Speaker 1:01:17 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:18 And so you can imagine me being dating... And then I f- I, I think, like, oftentimes, we go for the opposite in the person we end up marry- like, marrying or-

Speaker 1:01:25 Yeah, certainly f- for me, [chuckles] yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:27 Yeah, well, certainly for me as well.

Speaker 1:01:28 Yeah, my wife is, like, way more emotionally intelligent than anyone in my entire extended family. [chuckles]

Steven Bartlett 1:01:32 Yeah, same.

Speaker 1:01:34 This is how you build a rich life, is that you basically, like... I mean, it's like hiring. You find members of the team who have all the strengths that you need.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:40 Yeah.

Speaker 1:01:40 It's, like, the things that you can't do, and it's like filling your blind spots, basically.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:44 Have you got better at saying the words?

Speaker 1:01:46 No. There's like-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:47 Any progress?

Speaker 1:01:48 Uh, yeah, progress, probably, but very slow. But in a way, that's great, you know, because we're gonna be married the rest of our lives, and so that could be another fifty, sixty years together, and so you need to see incremental progress.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:58 [chuckles]

Speaker 1:01:58 You know, 'cause really, there's nothing better in life than making progress, and I've started at such a low point, and I'm making progress [chuckles] so slowly, that I basically have a good project for the rest of my life.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:08 I wouldn't- we kind of touched on it before, but one of the things that's been front of mind for me at the moment is, um, actually something I saw in your personality test, which was you were high in perseverance. And, uh, we talked earlier on about, like, mastery and how it's important to, um, persist to, to get good at something. But this has just been front of mind for me, I think, for a long time, because even I, like, as a podcaster, I realized that a lot of the game... I'm, like, five years in now, and, um, when I look at someone like Joe Rogan, he's been going for like, I don't know, fifteen, seventeen years.

Speaker 1:02:39 Or more, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:40 Or more.

Speaker 1:02:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:41 And I go, like, "So much of the game in becoming great at something-

Speaker 1:02:45 Yeah, it's grinding-

Steven Bartlett 1:02:46 ... it's just going-

Speaker 1:02:46 Just keep doing it

Steven Bartlett 1:02:47 ... unusual amount of time."

Speaker 1:02:49 Well, it's like compounding interest. I'm like, look at Warren Buffett. Have you ever seen stuff with Warren Buffett where it's like, you know, it took him, whatever, forty years to make his first couple million or whatever, took him another, like, ten or fifteen years to make his first billion, and then it took him, like, whatever, in the last eight years, he's made, like, a hundred billion dollars or, you know, 'cause his whole wealth is like, woo.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:04 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:03:05 You're kind of like, basically, if you put enough time into something and you let it compound, it like, slowly gets bigger and bigger.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:10 It's exactly that, and so I've been thinking about, like-

Speaker 1:03:11 Also, all those numbers are incorrect, but the, the shape of the graph is correct.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:15 We'll put it on the screen so everyone can see. [chuckles]

Speaker 1:03:16 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Somebody correct my numbers-

Steven Bartlett 1:03:18 But I mean-

Speaker 1:03:18 But the principle is correct.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:20 It's the same, it's the same as this graph here that you-

Speaker 1:03:22 Yeah

Steven Bartlett 1:03:22 ... drew of your career. Um, it's the same as the podcast growth, where three years no one was listening, and then we have this whoop.

Speaker 1:03:28 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:28 Um, and I, I think as a principle-

Speaker 1:03:30 But that's why you focus on doing something of value. Because with the podcast, like, if you feel like you're doing something useful and that you think it's cool and you think there's something there, you just keep doing it, and eventually, people got on board.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:40 Okay, so on that train of thought, I've thought a lot about how do I create the conditions to out-persist other people in the areas that I love? And one such thing, for example, with the podcast, is like, never have a conversation that I'm not looking forward to.

Speaker 1:03:55 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:56 Because that's unsustainable over the long term.

Speaker 1:03:57 Totally, 'cause then it feels like hard work as opposed to something that we're like, "This is amazing!"

Steven Bartlett 1:04:01 Yeah.

Speaker 1:04:02 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:02 So when I look at my cal- they'll say, "Oh, this person wants to come on," and they've got a hundred and sixty gazillion followers.

Speaker 1:04:06 But you're like: I don't care about that person.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:09 Yeah, because if I, if I use that as a decision framework-

Speaker 1:04:11 Yeah

Steven Bartlett 1:04:11 ... for the next ten years, I'll quit.

Speaker 1:04:12 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:13 W- do you think about that, like, the conditions to out-persist in your domain?

Speaker 1:04:17 I mean, kind of, yeah. I mean, I haven't had to think about it too much because I freaking love climbing in all its forms [chuckles] , and so basically-

Steven Bartlett 1:04:22 [chuckles]

Speaker 1:04:22 ... climbing, it comes easily. But, like, in terms of the work stuff I do, um, I forget, I, I think I was talking to you before we started recording, but, um, but I host this podcast called Planet Visionaries. Uh, it's like a Rolex Perpetual Planet. Like, I interview these scientists and conservationists and whatever. And for whatever reason, every time I do those podcasts, I come out of it feeling all energized and like, "I should train more, I should study, I should learn something," basically because the people that I'm interviewing are all so uniquely good at what they do, and they're all trying to save the world in different ways. It's like, you know, marine biologists-

Steven Bartlett 1:04:49 Mm

Speaker 1:04:49 ... like exploring the deep sea floor and things like that. Yesterday, I interviewed these t- two, uh, women about the fact that we've only explored 0.001% of the deep sea, uh, which represents two-thirds of the planet. So basically, two-thirds of the planet we know, like, literally nothing about, and there's, like, this rich underwater world of, like, cool stuff going on on the ocean floor that we've never seen and know nothing about, and it's insane. And I was like, "That's so cool," and I got all fired up about it. And so I come out of work then, you know, quote, unquote, "work things" like that, and I'm, like, energized and excited to learn and grow and, you know, push myself. And I'm kind of like, that's the type of work that I want to do as much as possible. And then there are other kinds of things where, you know, I'll do, like, corporate speaking or something, where you show up at a conference, and you just, like, get ground down, [chuckles] you know?

Steven Bartlett 1:05:30 Yeah.

Speaker 1:05:31 When you leave and you go back to your hotel, and all you can do is just, like, lie there on the bed for an hour being like, "Oh, what am I doing with my life?" You know, you feel, like, kind of wrecked.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:38 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:05:38 So it's like, if you can focus on the work where you come out of it feeling inspired and, like, excited to try hard, versus the work that makes you want to, like, mindlessly scroll on something for hours, you know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 1:05:49 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:05:49 'Cause sometimes you're just like, "Oh, I'm just so over it."

Steven Bartlett 1:05:52 Yeah, someone said that to me early in my career. They said, like, "Whenever you find domains that make you feel expansive, like sh-

Speaker 1:05:57 Totally

Steven Bartlett 1:05:58 ... you should double down on those domains, 'cause you're- that's the path to mastery. You're gonna be able to continue."

Speaker 1:06:03 Yeah, because you can just keep pushing super hard in that.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:05 Over a long period of time.

Speaker 1:06:05 And yeah, thankfully, for climbing, that's always just been that. Like, I just freaking love climbing. It's so great. You should do it more.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:11 I know. You, you make us all want to climb more, Alex.

Speaker 1:06:14 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:15 That's one of the, I think, the great, um, consequences of watching you do something like Taipei. I mean, there was loads of kids in the streets of Taipei, I think, that were all trying to climb buildings. Uh, there was those, like, funny videos. Then obviously, they were only getting, like, a meter up-

Speaker 1:06:25 Oh, yeah

Steven Bartlett 1:06:26 ... before they fell. [chuckles]

Speaker 1:06:26 [chuckles] It's like, hopefully, they don't... [chuckles] Yeah, hopefully, it's not too much copycatting. But yeah, we got some crazy numbers from Netflix that, uh, I think half of people, or more than half of people who have a Netflix subscription in, in Taiwan watched the building climb on, uh... [chuckles] It's like, in, in Taiwan, it was, like, insane. Like, literally everybody watch. It's, it's such a, it's such a singular striking building in, in Taipei. It's like a total national icon, you know? It's like a-... it's, it's insane.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:52 Have you already started thinking about what you're gonna do next?

Speaker 1:06:55 People are always like, "You know, what's your next big thing?" And I'm kind of like, you know, if you just focus on doing lots of little things all the time, occasionally the big things just happen, and you can't totally know ahead of time. You know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 1:07:04 Explain that to me.

Speaker 1:07:05 Well, so at least, so I mean, I have climbing goals going back twenty years. I have all these notes on my phone. I always have, like, to-do lists. I've-- Especially when I lived in the van and I was traveling, you're, like, seasonally moving between climbing destinations non-stop. So I'd lay- I'd layer out all these different types of goals, like, "I want to do these types of things." Certain goals lead to other goals because they're the same type of fitness, let's say. So, like, doing really big things help you do even bigger things later, but doing, like, really hard and intense things help you do other hard and intense things later. You know, so in some ways, in the way you stack your goals, you can kind of build up to big things or, like, build up to really hard things or whatever. And so I've always had running to-do lists of, like, "I'm gonna try to do all these climbs this year." And realistically, I normally do, like, half of them, or, or some of them I never even get to because it's like, the weather's not good, and I wind up going to a different area or, like, don't go to that, that climbing destination at all, and so I never even try the project. But I've always had tons of goals like that. And looking back at years and years of that type of- those types of lists, I just see that it's slightly hard to predict when you're going to achieve the things that are like cutting edge or groundbreaking or whatever. You just have to keep doing the things nonstop, and every once in a while, some of them rise to the top. I mean, this kind of goes back to the same like value-creating things. Like, you don't know which things are going to be rad. You just do all the things, and some of them wind up being rad.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:20 And the decision framework there is to just do things you love and that challenge you.

Speaker 1:08:25 Yeah, things that push you in a... Like, things that are new for you, that are hard for you, that are challenging in the right ways. You know, but you just can't-- You don't always know ahead of time which of those things are gonna stand out or not, but you just do them anyway because they're-- you're learning from them, you're excited about them, they're hard. And then, you know, some are cool, some aren't. Some you never even try, and, like, that's fine. You just keep doing things.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:47 The CEO of Uber, Darra, was, was sat there yesterday, and one of the, um, contrarian pieces of life advice he gave, which is kind of overlaid with what you just said, is he said, "People need to stop making-- Young people, in particular, need to stop making life, life plans-

Speaker 1:08:59 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:59 -because it marries them to the serendipity and opportunity and things that might happen if they're broader-

Speaker 1:09:04 Totally

Steven Bartlett 1:09:04 ... open-minded."

Speaker 1:09:05 Well, or, um, uh, my wife and I sometimes joke, it's, that we both have very strong opinions, loosely held, where it's like, "Oh, I'm totally sure of a thing," right up until I get some data that shows that that's wrong, and then you're like, "Oh, never mind, throw that away." And that's kind of how a lot of my to-do lists have always been, or, like, my goals, where I'm like, "Oh, I have all these goals," but if I take a slight fork in my year where it's like, turns out, uh, you know, for whatever reason, like, something else lines up, and it makes sense to do all these other things, and I'm just like, "Oh, right turn," and just change.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:31 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:09:31 You know?

Steven Bartlett 1:09:32 And it overlaps with what you said earlier about, like, not worrying so much about, like, how much it's gonna pay me today-

Speaker 1:09:36 Yeah

Steven Bartlett 1:09:36 ... or what the big thing is, or it's kind of like, just-

Speaker 1:09:39 Just keep doing cool things, and it'll, it'll all work out.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:43 I would love if we could, you know, scan your brain and look at all the parts, especially in the context. I learned of, about this particular region of the brain called the anterior midcingulate cortex-

Speaker 1:09:51 Okay

Steven Bartlett 1:09:51 ... which I heard Andrew Huberman talking about, and it's a part of the brain they discovered quite recently that lights up when f- you do things that you don't want to do.

Speaker 1:09:59 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:59 So not things that you enjoy doing that are somewhat, like, difficult, like running a marathon, but things that you actively avoid and resist, but do anyway. Pain, fear, effort, discipline. This is the circuit that decides whether you quit or you push through, and it grows the more you do things you don't want to do. So it's like they now consider it to be the muscle of willpower in the brain.

Speaker 1:10:16 Interesting.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:16 When they look at athletes, they have bigger ones.

Speaker 1:10:18 Makes sense.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:18 When they look at people who are

Steven Bartlett 1:10:20 struggling or less, are more sedentary or struggling with their weight-

Speaker 1:10:23 Mm

Steven Bartlett 1:10:23 ... they often have smaller ones. Uh, anyone that avoids discomfort has a smaller one. So, um, in your-- in the context of the way you've lived your life, you've continued to do things that are hard, that... I mean, you can love climbing, but you don't necessarily love-

Speaker 1:10:36 Yeah, but just doing, like, one more set every time is like-

Steven Bartlett 1:10:39 Yeah

Speaker 1:10:39 ... that's, that's always a challenge.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:41 Yeah.

Speaker 1:10:41 You're always like, "My whole body hurts, but I'll just do a little more," you know? [chuckles]

Steven Bartlett 1:10:44 Yeah, and I think the-

Speaker 1:10:45 Like-

Steven Bartlett 1:10:45 ... the thing, I guess, here is, like, about neuroplasticity, which is gonna be a ton of people listening right now that are so far away from their Taipei-

Speaker 1:10:52 Mm

Steven Bartlett 1:10:52 ... from their Taipei 101. They're so far away from that. They're in a job they just don't like. They're maybe the finance brother, you know, you talked about a second ago, and their, their life is absent of even adventure. And they probably look at you and go, "Well, you know, he just has something I don't have."

Speaker 1:11:05 I know, but I just don't, you know? I mean, I've structured my life in a different way, and I've made many different choices and, and all that, but that's the thing, is I don't really think I have anything different. I mean, I, I actually hate all the, like, brain stuff because people always, like, use that to, to put me in this box of like: "Well, you're different." And I'm like: "Well, not really. Like, I'm a middle-class suburban kid. Both my parents... Like, nobody in my family is athletic. Like, nobody is good at sports at all," you know? [chuckles] It's like, like, basically, if you were to, like, look at the... You know, like, if I was a video game character, and you were to look at all my little bars, you'd be like: "That guy's not gonna be an athlete. Like, he's not good at this," you know? It's like my parents are professors, and we fricking read books. Like, I'm not-- There's no aptitude for anything, really. [chuckles]

Steven Bartlett 1:11:47 Mm.

Speaker 1:11:47 And I was, like, bad at sports as a kid. I'm not good with balls. Like, you know, there's no reason, but, I mean, really, I just have loved climbing enough that I've been willing to put in a tremendous amount of time and effort and eventually get good at it. And I'm kind of like, to hear people say, like, "Oh, your brain's different," you're kind of like: "Well, everybody's brain is a little bit different in some ways." It doesn't mean that you can't devote yourself to something that you care about.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:07 But with this in mind and with all the neuroscientists that I've interviewed, your brain is different in part because you've taken-- you've done different things.

Speaker 1:12:14 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:14 And neuroplasticity says you can change your brain right the way up throughout your, your entire life. One of my friends, um, Tom Bilyeu, is a good example of that. He's a big podcaster. You might know Tom Bilyeu.

Speaker 1:12:23 I don't think so.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:24 Um, but he, you know, he was... I can't remember the rough age, but I'm gonna say he was thirty years old. He was so, in his words, lazy, that he would s- lay in bed all day. When his girlfriend came home, he said he would jump up out of bed just so she didn't believe that he was in bed all day, and he didn't want to be embarrassed. And when he asked his, at the time, girlfriend, if, if he could, um, ask her dad if he could marry her, dad said no. He was-- he desperately was, like, lazy and down and out. Over the next ten years, he makes decisions to take on more difficult challenges.... builds a billion-dollar company, sells it. If you meet this guy today, you'd think, like, athlete, genius, super smart, motivated.

Speaker 1:13:00 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:00 You'd beg him for advice on discipline and motivation. Like, he's that kind of guy.

Speaker 1:13:04 But yeah, so what'd he do?

Steven Bartlett 1:13:05 He read a book about neuroplasticity, and he realized that he wasn't stuck.

Speaker 1:13:09 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:09 He, he learned about neuroplasticity, which means that at any age in your life, the decisions you make change your brain.

Speaker 1:13:14 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:14 And that's why I love this discovery of this anterior insular cortex, 'cause it means that, like, maybe, in part, the reason why I'm not taking on my Taipei 101 is because I haven't taken on my Taipei 101.

Speaker 1:13:27 Yeah, you have- well, you haven't taken on, uh, your Taipei 1. [chuckles] You know, your Taipei, uh, your Taipei 12 or whatever. You know, like, just the little pieces at the bottom. 'Cause that's the thing is, like... And, and actually, this is why when you asked about, like, any big goals, I'm like, I, I, sometimes I think the big goals are slightly limiting because, like, if you're your friend who's laying in bed, Taipei 101 is not the appropriate goal. You know what I mean? Like, you need, you need a Taipei 4. Like, [chuckles] you need to just get out and, like, do a little thing. You need to achieve some success. You need to just see that you can do something, and you need to take on appropriately sized challenges. Because I think having a great white whale, you know, is, is great sometimes, but that's not always what you need, you know?

Steven Bartlett 1:14:04 Mm.

Speaker 1:14:04 And, and partially, like, for me right now, you know, we're raising two little kids, and we're just, like, in the midst of it, you know? It's like bedtime right now is hanging. It's just, like, it's a lot. And I'm like, I don't need, like, an El Cap-sized goal right now because, you know, we're just trying to make it through a certain phase of life, really. Not to say that I'll never have other big goals, but you're kind of like, you, you want your goals to be appropriate to the, the time and, and, and space that you have available.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:28 I had a psychologist say to me a- about this idea of just setting yourself a Taipei 1-

Speaker 1:14:32 Yeah

Steven Bartlett 1:14:32 ... like a small goal. Uh, the, the reason why people don't do it is because they see it as almost so embarrassingly small that they don't think it matters.

Speaker 1:14:41 Yeah, but I mean, but that's why you focus on it doesn't matter to you. Like, is it something that you haven't done? Like, is it good for your growth? Is it challenging for you? Like, it's good enough.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:50 But that same psychologist told me that when they were dealing with a patient who was so demotivated and that they couldn't get out of their bedroom, which was stacked to the ceiling with plates and cutlery, that day one was bringing the Hoover into the room. That was day one. Day two was plugging it in. That was day two. And by day thirty, they're outside. This is someone who is scared of going outside. They're outside walking around, the room is clean. But he, he said to me that people don't take that first step because it's so embarrassingly small that it's almost shameful to say, like-

Speaker 1:15:15 Mm

Steven Bartlett 1:15:16 ... "Today, we're just gonna bring the Hoover in."

Speaker 1:15:17 Yeah, but that's the thing, it's always better to take a step than to not take a step.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:21 Mm.

Speaker 1:15:22 You know, that's... Yeah, I mean, that's how I've always felt with, with all these things. You're like, "Well, you might as well go out and do the thing. Like, do something."

Steven Bartlett 1:15:28 Mm.

Speaker 1:15:29 You remember the being I was like, "You don't let perfect be the enemy of good." Like, you do the good thing, you know, 'cause it like, it's, like, don't let perfectionism cripple you. You know, it's like, that's why I think, you know, Taipei 101, if that's kind of like your perfect goal, it's like, don't let that hold you back from going out and climbing Taipei 4 or Taipei 8 or, you know, like, some of the surrounding little buildings, 'cause it's like you practice on what you can.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:51 Goes back to this point of perseverance. I read a quote many years ago that said, um, "Greatness doesn't exist. Greatness is just good repeated."

Speaker 1:15:57 I mean, this is what I'm saying about having lots of little goals, is that I would actually say that if you repeat good enough, every once in a while, some of those are great, actually, but you just don't totally know.

Steven Bartlett 1:16:05 Mm.

Speaker 1:16:06 You know? I noticed that a lot, like, in my climbing life, like, in the long arc of climbing, there are tons of things I did in Yosemite, where, like, in a season, I'd have, like, five or six goals in Yosemite, and I'd do all the things. And one of them, for whatever reason, would wind up being like, "That's rad," and it would, you know, like, makes climbing news and things like that. And the other ones, you know, maybe less so.

Steven Bartlett 1:16:25 Mm.

Speaker 1:16:25 But you don't totally know ahead of time which ones are cool or not, and which ones are gonna stand the test of time. Like, s- at one point, in the not too distant [chuckles] past, I held a speed record on every major formation in Yosemite. Now, a few of them have been broken over time, and... But those are the kinds of things where you never really know, like, how long those types of records will last, 'cause sometimes you do them, and then your friend comes and breaks it the next season, and you're like, "Cool," and you go back and forth, and it's all part of a fun game.

Steven Bartlett 1:16:46 Mm.

Speaker 1:16:46 And then some of them, you've set a speed record, and it lasts for, like, fifteen years, and you're sort of like, "Oh, I didn't realize that this was gonna be, like, such a milestone," you know?

Steven Bartlett 1:16:53 It reminds me of, um, the Steve Jobs quote about how you can only really connect the dots looking backwards in life.

Speaker 1:16:58 Totally. Totally.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:00 Steve Jobs' quote from his commencement speech was, "You can't connect the dots looking forward. You can only connect them looking backwards, so you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. Clarity isn't a prerequisite for action. It's the reward you get after you move."

Speaker 1:17:16 And that's, that's the thing, is I think, 'cause I do so many interviews of, like, you know, "When was the moment you decided to be a professional climber?" And I'm like, "There's no moment. Like, I just did the thing for years and years, and now looking backward, it looks like this amazing arc." You know, but at the moment, you're always fr- you know, I spent years being like, "Should I go back to college? Like, do I need a degree?" Like, and then I spent a few years wondering if I should go back and get, like, an executive MBA or something, or some- b- 'cause I was like, "I don't wanna go back to undergrad. I've been living [chuckles] in my van for ten years," and... But you're kind of like, "Still, I need that validation. I need... You know, I want to jump through the hoops," and then really, it's only now that I'm kind of like, I don't think I need that.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:47 In part, I think the reason why we, um, we, so many of us get forced into procrastination when we're trying to connect the dots looking forward is because we face these questions from society, which is like, "What's your plan? What's your career? What are you aiming at?" And we don't have answers, so we fill in the gaps. We have to say something to Mum and Dad. We have to say, like, "What's the plan for the future?" You can't say, "Nothing. No, no plan."

Speaker 1:18:04 Well, or you just say, "I'm living. I'm just letting it play out. We'll just see what, see what happens. It's gonna be a grand adventure." And, I mean, I kind of hope my, my kids feel confident with that. You know, just kind of like, "Well, I'm doing the best I can. I'm practicing the things that I care about, and we'll see how it plays out."

Steven Bartlett 1:18:19 We'll see how it plays out.

Speaker 1:18:21 'Cause, like, either way, it's gonna play out with, with me and them and everybody else dying. You're like, you know how it's gonna play out at the end, end. And so you're kind of like, the whole space up to there is like, oh, you just try to fill it with as many things that you're proud of as you can.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:33 It's a s- remarkably simple way to live in a world that's, uh, increasingly complex, Alex.

Speaker 1:18:37 Hmm, well, I mean, it doesn't need to be that complex. But this is why I think spending some time in nature, like, helps remind you of some of

Speaker 1:18:46 those sorts of things.

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Steven Bartlett 1:19:53 If you knew that you only had one week left to live, and this was the week, and you could only do one last climb, you go back and recapture the record, go do El Cap again, I don't know, a different building. You have one week, and assume you're sufficiently prepared for whatever the climb would be. What would, what would you do?

Speaker 1:20:09 Well, so I'm allowed to do, like, cutting-edge, futuristic things?

Steven Bartlett 1:20:13 Yeah.

Speaker 1:20:14 Oh, well, well, then I'm like, I don't know. I mean, the Burj, like, it'd be insane. But, um, but no, uh, like, the, the Free Triple in Yosemite is, like, the three biggest walls in Yosemite. Uh-

Steven Bartlett 1:20:23 The Free Triple.

Speaker 1:20:25 The... So it's El Cap, Half Dome, and Mount Watkins. W- Mount Wa- Watkins is kind of like a Half Dome-sized wall that's further up valley. So it's the three biggest walls in Yosemite. So Tommy Caldwell and I have free climbed the Triple. The two of us did it together with ropes, but we, like, climbed the whole thing. And then I've soloed the Triple, so I've done all three with ropes by myself. It was, like, eighteen or nineteen hours or something of climbing. Um, but it's never been free soloed. Uh, I've free soloed Half Dome individually, and I've free soloed El Cap individually. No one's ever free soloed Watkins, but the idea of doing all three in a day would be like, I think, totally, like, next-generation achievement. There are certain things like that where I'm sort of like, if I was starting over, if I was, like, an eighteen-year-old who was, like, trying to make it as a professional climber nowadays and, and had a higher level of skill than I do now, and, you know, basically was, like, trying to do this again, there are things like that, that would be sort of like the obvious next-generation challenge.

Steven Bartlett 1:21:13 Free solo all three in the same day?

Speaker 1:21:15 Yeah. Yeah, it'd probably take, uh... Well, it'd take a l- bit under twenty-four hours, probably.

Steven Bartlett 1:21:22 What is your training regimen to-- these days? Is it-

Speaker 1:21:25 Just go rock climbing a lot. Today, I did a little workout in the hotel gym this morning.

Steven Bartlett 1:21:28 Your hands are quite different. I was... They, they're quite big hands.

Speaker 1:21:31 Well, that's, I mean, you know, think of like a stonemason just, like, grinding away their whole life.

Steven Bartlett 1:21:35 I see. You, you, you have-- I don't know if people can see that on camera, but you, it does look like you have very, um, wide fingers.

Speaker 1:21:43 Yeah, my fingers, uh, have taken a lot of abuse in their time.

Steven Bartlett 1:21:46 Because I see you, like, putting them in, in between walls and stuff.

Speaker 1:21:50 Yeah, and then, like... Yeah, crack climbing. It's like you basically put your fingers into a crack, and then you torque them, and so, like, the side-to-side pulling, uh, does sort of make your connective tissue bigger.

Steven Bartlett 1:21:57 And does that hurt? I, I-f-

Speaker 1:21:59 Yeah, it hurts. [chuckles]

Steven Bartlett 1:22:00 It-- I was wondering when you were going up El Cap-

Speaker 1:22:01 I mean, when you're doing it well with good technique, it, it's not that painful. It depends on the type of rock, but some rock is kinda sharp and kinda painful. Um, but yeah, this is-- this goes back to strengthening your, what's the part called in your brain?

Steven Bartlett 1:22:11 Anterior insular cortex. [chuckles]

Speaker 1:22:12 Yeah, exactly. That guy. I mean, that's the thing is that even when done well, climbing, like, it hurts your fingers and toes, and, you know, crack climbing, when you're, like, jamming your toes into a crack, and you're torquing them side to side, and you're, like, wedging your fingers in. I mean, when you're doing it well, it has a pleasant d- feel of safety to it because you can really, like, lock into cracks, and it feels comfortable, and you feel like you're swimming, and you're like, "This is beautiful." But when you really come down to the sensations, you're still crushing your bones into a crack [chuckles] like it still hurts.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:37 When I look at this kind of photo-

Speaker 1:22:38 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:39 -where you're-- it looks like you're hanging by one and a half hands-

Speaker 1:22:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:45 -and you're gonna fall to your death if you, if your grip isn't-

Speaker 1:22:48 Yeah

Steven Bartlett 1:22:48 ... sufficient. It makes me think you must have the world's greatest grip strength.

Speaker 1:22:52 Oh, I definitely don't.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:53 You don't?

Speaker 1:22:53 But, I mean, well, you have your, your grip thing. You can find out.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:56 What's below you there in this photo?

Speaker 1:22:58 Well, actually, so there is, like, a sloping cliff thing below me. Uh, so I'm actually only, like, thirty feet off the ground, but if-- or forty feet, but if you fell, you'd bounce off, and you'd go, you know, basically to where it looks like down in the valley floor down there.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:09 Terrifying photo.

Speaker 1:23:11 It's funny, actually. Have you, you, you've seen Free Solo?

Steven Bartlett 1:23:13 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:23:13 Do you remember the, the camera guy that, like, can't look?

Steven Bartlett 1:23:16 Yeah.

Speaker 1:23:16 Uh, the, the guy that's, like, shooting the long shot on the ground, Mikey? He's a really good friend of mine. I've done tons of things with him. He was-- he shot the Taipei climb as well. Um, Mikey was the photo assistant for this photo. He was, like, holding the photos, and he did the whole shoot just, like-

Steven Bartlett 1:23:29 Really?

Speaker 1:23:29 ... looking into the wall. Like, [chuckles] he just never looked at any of the things happening. Like, Jimmy Chin was taking the photo, and Mikey was, like, did all the, the rigging and the lights and everything, and Mikey did the whole shoot just, like, looking into his arm, [chuckles] like, looking the other way. He was like: I am not part of this.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:43 I would like to see his brain scan.

Speaker 1:23:45 [chuckles] He was stressed, but he, I mean, he's an elite climber himself, and he's, he's amazing, but, like, basically watching free soloing is stressful, and nobody wants to do it if they don't have

Speaker 1:23:53 to.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:53 When, when, when is the-- in all your career, when is the moment where you were most scared, where you thought maybe you had, uh, pushed it too far?

Speaker 1:23:59 Oh, it's actually, uh, I've had several moments, but they're actually mostly with ropes on. That's the thing is that because when you're free soloing, you generally keep it within a healthy margin, or you practice ahead of time. You, you know, basically, because you're gonna die, you make sure that you can do it. But when you have a rope on, you're way more willing to push into the unknown because you're kinda like: Surely, I'll get some protection eventually. I'll just ha- keep looking. I'll keep looking. And so, like, I've had-- I was on an expedition to Antarctica, actually, um, in 2017, and did a bunch of climbing that was very extreme, but, like, with a rope, but it was, you know, it was Antarctica. It's really freaking cold. Conditions are challenging. The rock is crumbling. Everything is scary, and you just keep hoping that it's gonna get better, and it just keeps getting worse instead, and eventually, you're sort of like... Because the thing is, having a rope on doesn't mean anything unless you get good protection, which means you have to be able to put gear into the rock, and if you can't find places to put gear into the rock, then you can go-- You know, the rope is two hundred feet long. If you go two hundred feet without getting good gear, then you're looking at taking a four hundred-foot fall before the rope catches you.... uh, which is almost certainly fatal. You know what I mean? If you fall that far, even though the rope will catch your corpse, [chuckles] you know, but you're still just gonna hit the wall after 400 feet, like, you're screwed. So anyway, my scariest experiences have all been in situations like that, for the most part.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:06 Mm.

Speaker 1:25:07 This is why I'm saying climbing, you get scared a lot. In Argentina, I was like, that expedition, uh, we were climbing basically day on, day off. Each day, we would go climb one of these crazy spires, and we'd have these experiences where I'd be, like, so scared, and then the next day, we would just sit in the tent because it's Antarctica. It's, like, really cold. You're in the cook tent, and I would basically just spoon Nutella all day, totally shell-shocked, [chuckles] like, totally, like, just completely traumatized. And then the ne- and then you'd be, like, rested enough, and you'd go out the next day and do it again, and we just did, like, day on, day off of, like, full trauma fear for the whole trip. And then we climbed everything in the range. It was amazing. It was an incredible trip.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:41 So you do get scared?

Speaker 1:25:42 Yeah, I was so scared the whole time. [chuckles]

Steven Bartlett 1:25:44 Do- are there any techniques that have proven to be effective for you to deal with that fear? Like, people talk about breathwork and-

Speaker 1:25:49 Yeah, take some deep breaths, try to compose yourself. I mean, I try to stay rational, you know, like, "Am I in danger?" 'Cause sometimes, like, in this case, in Antarctica, I am actually in danger. Like, if I fall, I could die. Um, but oftentimes, you feel... You get those feelings of fear, and you're not actually in danger. You're just- it's your mind running away from you. And so sometimes you can sort of rationally rein it in a little bit, where you're like: No, I am safe. The protection will hold me. The rope is... You know, my gear is good, and then you just take a deep breath, and you just carry on.

Steven Bartlett 1:26:14 And do you visualize falling ever?

Speaker 1:26:16 Oh, yeah, I mean, of course. Yeah, I mean, you have to understand what the consequences will be. Because, I mean, that type of visualization is also how you can know when you're safe. Because, like, if you have a rope in gear and you're trying to visualize, like: If I fall, am I gonna hit the ground, or is the gear gonna catch me before I hit the ground? I mean, there are often situations like that where you're like: If I fall, am I gonna hit that ledge and break both my legs, or am I gonna clear the ledge and fall into free space, in which case it's totally safe? And so y- it helps to be able to have a clear-eyed visualization of... You know, 'cause most people visualize the worst case. Like, "If I fall, I'm gonna die," and you're like, well, oftentimes, if you-- I'm talking about with a rope, if you fall, you're gonna be fine, but it's important to know the difference.

Steven Bartlett 1:26:53 Mm. So you don't avoid the confrontation with the negative outcomes?

Speaker 1:26:59 No, because you're trying to avoid the negative out- Like, you have to think about it, because how else do you mitigate that kind of stuff?

Steven Bartlett 1:27:04 Mm-hmm. But you can't let that stop you taking actions when the risk profile is okay.

Speaker 1:27:08 Yeah, exactly. I mean, this is like a whole rant about risk-taking and everything.

Steven Bartlett 1:27:12 Please.

Speaker 1:27:12 But, like, I mean, that's the thing, is you want to be taking the risks that you want to take, and it drives me crazy that nobody else thinks about risk in this way. Because think of all the people that, like, go out partying every weekend, and they get, like, kind of buzzed, and they drive home and whatever, and it's like they're taking all kinds of risk that they're not actually choosing to take. You know what I mean? Like, they're just choosing to go out and party and have a good time, but then they're, like, driving a little buzzed, and they're like: "No, it's fine." But you're like: No, obviously, you're taking a risk. Or, like, you're putting yourself into situations where you're, like, in a vulnerable situation because you're incapacitated, because you're drunk or whatever. And so, you know, you're putting yourself at a higher risk for crime, things like that. And so you're taking risks. You just haven't chosen to take those risks. I'm kind of like, the thing with climbing is that I'm choosing to take the risks, and I'm pretty clear-eyed about the risk that I'm taking. Like, I mean, I'm not gonna say it's perfect, but for the most part, I think I have a pretty good idea of which aspects are dangerous, like, when the consequences are high, what will happen if I do fall. You know, it's like you try to think it all out as much as you can. I'm kind of like, how many people in normal life actually think through all the risks that they're taking? And even totally sedentary people who are like: "Well, I don't take risks. I stay home, and I play video games." You're like: No, you're at a much higher risk of heart disease. Like, you're gonna die from other things. You know, it's like... And you're still gonna freaking die either way. That's... Okay, I'm done ranting. I'm sorry.

Steven Bartlett 1:28:24 No, no, but it's, it's really important, 'cause y- I think we are all taking risks-

Speaker 1:28:27 Mm

Steven Bartlett 1:28:27 ... but some of us aren't intentional about the risks we're taking, essentially.

Speaker 1:28:31 That's exactly it. Like, even if you take no risks, you're gonna die. You're taking a different set of risks. And so people look at my life, and they're like: "Well, you're crazy. You're such a risk-taker." And I'm kind of like: Well, at least I'm taking the risks that I'm choosing, and I'm choosing them very intentionally, and I'm pretty careful about them, and I mitigate them as much as I can. I'm kind of like: Well, can you say the same for the risk that you're taking? Or... You know, I'm sort of like the average person, I think, doesn't think about risk as much as they should.

Steven Bartlett 1:28:54 And is there anything that you would give them as a framework to help them be more intentional about those risks? Is there... Is it just to-

Speaker 1:28:59 Well, it's like, you're gonna freaking die either way, so choose the things that you care about and then do them well.

Steven Bartlett 1:29:05 And do them well. Prepare-

Speaker 1:29:07 Yeah, execute. Like, have a plan. You know, but don't just, like, take risk willy-nilly. Like, don't just get drunk and go out and do a thing, you know, 'cause, like, that's stupid. Like, that's not the risk you should be taking. You know, like, don't put all your money on black and just, like, hope. You know what I mean? [chuckles] Like, basically, don't just, like, roll the dice. Like, don't let fate just, like, roll the, roll the dice with your life. Like, make choices.

Steven Bartlett 1:29:27 And free soloing is... You know, there's a bigger existential risk with no margin for error, but, um, free-

Speaker 1:29:33 But it's very intentional.

Steven Bartlett 1:29:35 Very intentional. Drinking as a, as a risk is like a volume knob. The more you do it-

Speaker 1:29:39 Yeah

Steven Bartlett 1:29:39 ... the more the risk increases, and the other one is kind of like an on/off switch, which you can-

Speaker 1:29:44 Exactly

Steven Bartlett 1:29:44 ... you know, do it today and then... Mm. Yeah. So grip strength.

Speaker 1:29:48 I wouldn't be even a little bit surprised if you can pull that more than I can, actually. But look, I mean, we'll both try.

Steven Bartlett 1:29:53 Okay, this is a grip strength meter.

Speaker 1:29:55 Um, okay, so let's see. We're at zero. Um, kilograms will be extra small, then. [chuckles] Uh, I mean, the thing with these, like... Okay, actually, let me just preface this with, like, I, I've had tons of people be like: "Well, surely you're gonna break the machine." I'm like: No, because for climbing, you, you just have the strength that you need to do the things that you're trying to do.

Steven Bartlett 1:30:08 And how much do you weigh?

Speaker 1:30:09 Um, right now, like 165.

Steven Bartlett 1:30:12 165.

Speaker 1:30:12 Which is actually basically the heaviest I've ever been.

Steven Bartlett 1:30:14 165-

Speaker 1:30:14 Maybe, maybe 163 if I'm lucky right now.

Steven Bartlett 1:30:17 So 165 pounds in KG is equivalocal to 75 kilograms, roughly.

Speaker 1:30:22 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:30:23 Okay, go ahead.

Speaker 1:30:27 49 or 50.

Steven Bartlett 1:30:29 Okay.

Speaker 1:30:29 49.9. I'm gonna try this more. It's just like... Yeah, 49. You know-

Steven Bartlett 1:30:35 I'd say 49.

Speaker 1:30:36 But those are just kind of like... It's just a, it's just a different thing, you know what I mean? Like, that's not climbing.

Steven Bartlett 1:30:40 49 KG in pounds is 108. Interesting.

Speaker 1:30:45 Yeah, let's, let's see yours, then. But yeah, like I'm saying-

Steven Bartlett 1:30:48 Are you stronger with different arms?

Speaker 1:30:49 Uh, it's about the same with both hands. It should be.

Steven Bartlett 1:30:54 ... 62?

Speaker 1:30:55 Yeah, see, there you go.

Steven Bartlett 1:30:56 Yeah, I can't-

Speaker 1:30:57 You're twice as strong as me.

Steven Bartlett 1:30:57 I can't lift my body weight. Like, I can, but-

Speaker 1:30:59 I might be able to, like-- yeah, I mean, I might be able to muster a little more in it, but-

Steven Bartlett 1:31:04 63 on that one.

Speaker 1:31:05 Let me try again. [laughing]

Steven Bartlett 1:31:07 [laughing]

Speaker 1:31:07 But, like, I don't, I don't think, uh... Do you work out, like you do weights and stuff?

Steven Bartlett 1:31:10 I, I lift dum- dumbbells, but I'm not doing anything grippy. I curl and stuff, but I don't do anything grippy.

Speaker 1:31:16 Oh, now I'm at 50 and a half.

Steven Bartlett 1:31:17 How many pull-ups can you do?

Speaker 1:31:18 Hmm, don't know, but I can-- yesterday I did, oh, I did a couple one-arms, like, uh, like, I... Yeah, I basically-

Steven Bartlett 1:31:24 One-arm pull-ups?

Speaker 1:31:24 Yeah. Yeah, which is very hard.

Steven Bartlett 1:31:27 Yeah, I don't think I can do one-arms.

Speaker 1:31:29 Yeah, well, that's the thing. That's why grip strength stuff, you're kinda like, "Eh." Or actually, so, um, like, have you done weighted pull-ups in a gym?

Steven Bartlett 1:31:35 Weighted pull-ups, no, I just do-- I just do my own body weight, and I, I, you know... I weigh a lot, so I'm, like, deceptively heavy.

Speaker 1:31:42 Really?

Steven Bartlett 1:31:43 Yeah.

Speaker 1:31:43 Like, you're dense.

Steven Bartlett 1:31:44 Very dense.

Speaker 1:31:45 Muscular.

Steven Bartlett 1:31:45 Cast iron and water. No, like big bones.

Speaker 1:31:47 You just sink straight to the bottom.

Steven Bartlett 1:31:48 Yeah. How, how much kilograms do you think I, I weigh? I mean, in pounds you'd know, but this is-

Speaker 1:31:51 Well, now I'm, now I'm guessing. I don't know, like, now that you're saying that you're big, I'm like, I don't know, maybe 185 or something? Whatever.

Steven Bartlett 1:31:57 I'm 211.

Speaker 1:31:58 Yeah, well, that's actually, so that's another thing with grip strength is, like, it makes sense that your grip strength is proportionally... I mean, you're, like, 25% bigger than me [chuckles] .

Steven Bartlett 1:32:06 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:32:06 Like, [chuckles] you know, basically.

Steven Bartlett 1:32:08 Yeah.

Speaker 1:32:08 So it's like, you would expect it to be at least 25% stronger right there, just because, like-

Steven Bartlett 1:32:13 Logic

Speaker 1:32:13 ... if you can do body weight pull-ups, you're gonna be much stronger.

Steven Bartlett 1:32:15 Yeah.

Speaker 1:32:16 But-

Steven Bartlett 1:32:16 We have, um, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing

Steven Bartlett 1:32:21 who they're leaving it for.

Speaker 1:32:22 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:32:23 And the question left for you is... Ooh! What do you want to achieve in your life outside of your mainline job that you haven't yet achieved?

Speaker 1:32:34 I don't know. I mean, that seems-- there are basically two other avenues that I care about in my life. Uh, you know, my family, I wanna be a good dad. I wanna make sure my kids grow up to be healthy, well-adjusted people that, you know, like, live their best lives. And then I have a foundation that supports community solar projects around the world, and I'd love to see that thrive. I mean, basically, I mean, you know, we give as much as we can to, to solar projects around the world, and I'd love to see that do more.

Steven Bartlett 1:32:57 On that point of your foundation, what is, what is the sort of the thesis there? You want to-- for solar projects.

Speaker 1:33:03 Yeah. Yeah, solar. It's basically energy access-

Steven Bartlett 1:33:04 Solar

Speaker 1:33:04 ... around the world.

Steven Bartlett 1:33:05 Oh, okay.

Speaker 1:33:06 Yeah, I think now we've given, I don't know, over 13 million to something like over 100 partners around the world. Basically, like small-scale community solar projects, so people getting access to energy for the first time. Um, basically using solar for anything ranging from light to, you know, say, food refrigeration, to pumping water, I mean, whatever, whatever people need energy for, which is basically everything.

Steven Bartlett 1:33:27 Thirteen mil-- More than 13 million across 130 projects in 30 countries, impacting 650,000 people and creating 1,200-plus jobs, protected 50 million acres of biodiverse forest as well.

Speaker 1:33:42 Yeah, some of those things are sort of like the, the secondary and tertiary benefits, whereas, like, when you empower certain kinds of communities, then they're better able to take care of their lands and things like that. Some of that has to do with indigenous sovereignty and things like in the Ecuadorian Amazon and, and places where it's like when the local people have power, suddenly they can protect their land from illegal logging, um, illegal mining, things like that. And so then you wind up having this knockoff, like, environmental benefit that's, like, also great, in addition to the human a- aspect, where you're like, "Well, these people are living better lives, and it helps save the planet."

Steven Bartlett 1:34:11 And you're giving away roughly a third of your wealth to cover the majority of the foundation's overheads, so-

Speaker 1:34:17 Yeah, I, I've been giving roughly a third of my, of what I make every year, uh, since 2012, and, uh, that's basically just sort of coincidentally tracked with the overhead for the foundation. So it just means that anything that people contribute goes straight to projects, 'cause I basically cover all the staffing and everything.

Steven Bartlett 1:34:32 How does, how does one contribute to that?

Speaker 1:34:34 Uh, honnoldfoundation.org is the easiest way. You can support directly, and you can see all the projects that we're working with.

Steven Bartlett 1:34:39 And donors can go there if they want to contribute to this. They can go to the website and contribute.

Speaker 1:34:42 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 1:34:43 Okay, well, I'll link the website below, and if anyone is interested in continuing to support the great work you're doing there, um, I'd highly recommend they go and make a donation. It's, uh, it's also just a way, I think, to give back to you as a person for the inspiration you've given so many of us.

Speaker 1:34:56 Oh, well, I appreciate that.

Steven Bartlett 1:34:57 Um, you know.

Speaker 1:34:58 Yeah. I mean, to me, the foundation has always been my attempt at doing something useful, 'cause, like, I love rock climbing. I think it's so fun, but in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter [chuckles] in the world, and I feel like the work that we're doing through the Honnold Foundation at least materially improves the well-being of, of other humans. [chuckles] You know, like, it actually has a real impact both for the environment and for people.

Steven Bartlett 1:35:16 Well, I, I don't know, Alex. I, I think watching you climb Taipei and watching the millions of people all around the world climb Taipei was an expansive moment for all of us because it all... It, it holds a mirror up to us in a really inspiring way and goes, "What obstacles can you overcome in your life?" And-

Speaker 1:35:33 Mm-hmm

Steven Bartlett 1:35:33 ... um, the mi- many, many millions of people now have that visual, and sometimes it is an absurd visual that does that and is most memorable, like, i- it etched into their brains. And that means that they, in their own life, are looking for their own Taipei ones or Taipei sevens-

Speaker 1:35:48 Mm-hmm

Steven Bartlett 1:35:48 ... or Taipei 101s. And if you play that forward as like a ripple in the ocean of how people are gonna strive and maybe live more intentionally, maybe, maybe it does really, really matter. Maybe the whole conversation, which was more like my entire Twitter feed for days and days and days of people saying, "This is a miraculous human achievement," it- there's like, that's the first half of a sentence. The other half of that sentence, which we never really hear, is like, "So now what can I do?"

Speaker 1:36:11 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:36:13 And that is a profound thing.

Speaker 1:36:14 Well, that's definitely the best frame. Like, that's the framing that I hope for, and that's, you know... But I think that's, like, the best-case scenario for my climbing, and, like, I, I hope that that's how people take it. But I will say that the work through the Honnold Foundation at least has a direct material impact immediately. [chuckles] You're kinda like-

Steven Bartlett 1:36:29 [chuckles]

Speaker 1:36:29 ... oh, you don't have to hope for ripples or anything.

Steven Bartlett 1:36:31 Yeah.

Speaker 1:36:31 You're like, "Well, this person can now read after dark for the first time ever," and you're like-

Steven Bartlett 1:36:34 Yeah

Speaker 1:36:34 ... "That is game-changing." If anything, you know, I've been talking a lot about, like, actions speaking louder than words, and I'm like, "Yeah, I hope to..." You know, like, it's great if the climbing I do inspires people. Like, that's all good, but at some point, you just do a direct thing that actually helps people's lives, too.

Steven Bartlett 1:36:48 And you're doing both.

Speaker 1:36:49 Yeah. Yeah, aspiring to. Doing my best.

Steven Bartlett 1:36:51 The tangible and the-

Speaker 1:36:52 Exactly

Steven Bartlett 1:36:53 ... intangible. Alex, thank you so much.

Speaker 1:36:56 Thank you.

Steven Bartlett 1:36:56 Thank you so much.

Speaker 1:36:56 Amazing conversation.

Steven Bartlett 1:36:58 Thank you. YouTube have this new crazy algorithm where they know exactly what video you would like to watch next based on AI and all of your viewing behavior, and the algorithm says that this video is the perfect video for you. It's different for everybody looking right now. Check this video out, and I bet you, you might love it.