Alex Honnold: Why fear training takes years, not hacks

1. 0:00 – 2:43

   Intro

   1. SPSpeaker0:00

      It drives me crazy that nobody else thinks about risk in this way. People look at my life and they're like, "Well, you're crazy. You're such a risk-taker." Well, at least I'm taking the risks that I'm choosing. Because think of all the people that, like, go out partying every weekend, and they get buzzed, and they drive home. And even sedentary people who are like, "Well, I don't take risks. I stay home and I play video games." No, you're at a much higher risk of heart disease. Like, they're taking all kinds of risk that they're not actually choosing to take, and you're still gonna freaking die either way. So you might as well take smart, calculated risks and do all the things that you wanna do, and at least die happy when you go. [chuckles] He's done it! Alex Honnold has made history again.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:32

      Scaling one of the world's tallest skyscrapers. But the conclusion that a lot of people have arrived at is that you don't experience fear. Because when they look at these two brain scans, your amygdala is lighting up less when you're shown scary images.

   3. SPSpeaker0:43

      I, I actually hate all the brain stuff because people always put me in this box of like, "Well, you're different." And I'm like, "Well, not really." Like, I'm a middle-class suburban kid. Nobody in my family is athletic. I just... After 20 years of climbing five days a week and being really freaking scared, I respond differently than an average person. And there was tons of emotional turmoil throughout it, periods where you're just like, "I'm trying so hard, and I'm just, like, not as good as I want to be." You know, I was, like, living in a car, and I had, like, a couple hundred bucks a month for 10 years. Like, that's challenging, but you just can't master a craft overnight.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett1:08

      I guess that's what people don't see. And so how do you create the conditions to out-persist other people? And then in all your career, when is the moment where you were most scared?

   5. SPSpeaker1:16

      On an expedition in Antarctica, I kept hoping that it's gonna get better, and it just kept getting worse, like I could die.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett1:21

      Do you have a conversation with your partner before you go and do something like this? Because she wrote a letter.

   7. SPSpeaker1:25

      Oh, gosh.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:26

      "Obviously, this is your worst nightmare," she said, "but we all have to do scary things sometimes, Alex." [drumbeat] Guys, I've got a quick favor to ask you. We're approaching a significant subscriber milestone on this show, and roughly sixty-nine percent of you that listen and love this show haven't yet subscribed for whatever reason. If there was ever a time for you to do us a favor, if we've ever done anything for you, given you value in any way, it is simply hitting that Subscribe button. And it means so much to myself, but also to my team, 'cause when we hit these milestones, we go away as a team and celebrate. And it's the thing, the simple, free, easy thing you can do to help make this show a little bit better every single week. So that's a favor I would ask you, and, um, if you do hit the Subscribe button, I won't let you down, and we'll continue to find small ways to make this whole production better. Thank you so much for being part of this journey. It means the world, and, uh, yeah, let's do this. [upbeat music] Alex, to understand you, I think from everything I've learned about you, from the research I've done, from speaking to your wife, your agent, everybody I could speak to, I think to understand your context, we first need to understand the circumstances in which you were raised and the childhood you had, because it seems to be... I mean, for all of us, there's, like, fingerprints left on, left on us that define

2. 2:43 – 9:40

   The Real Story Behind What Made Alex Honnold

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:43

      the anomaly, um, that many of us become, including yourself. So what do I need to know? What does the viewer need to know about the early context?

   2. SPSpeaker2:50

      Well, I mean, [chuckles] how deep do you want to go?

   3. SBSteven Bartlett2:52

      How deep?

   4. SPSpeaker2:52

      I need to get a sofa I need to recline. [laughing] Just be like, "All right." Uh, but yeah, certainly there's a, there's an imprint from my parents in my upbringing. I mean, they had a, a very fraught relationship. They eventually got divorced, but they stayed together for the kids, and it was a whole, like, you know, say, a tense home life because neither of them really liked each other. And then my mom is very driven, very, you know, high-performing. And my dad was hard to say. I mean, I think my dad was deeply depressed basically the whole time I knew him, 'cause he was in this relation... You know, it's hard to tell. He wasn't living his best life. And then, sadly, after they got divorced, he was, he was much happier, but then he died, and so then never really got to see, uh, never really got to see him blossom that much.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett3:30

      And your mother's high-performing, and did, did she sort of implicitly demand that of you in any way?

   6. SPSpeaker3:35

      Yeah, I mean, my mother speaks, like, seven or eight languages. She, like, plays every instrument. It's, like, kind of crazy. She's very artistically minded, uh, in that way, like, you know, the arts in a classical sense. But, um, yeah, she... I mean, she wanted us to do all those things, too. I'm a deep disappointment in that regard. [chuckles]

   7. SBSteven Bartlett3:50

      [chuckles] There was a phrase that I saw when I was watching the documentary that your, your mother would continually say, which I think translates to something like, "Not good enough."

   8. SPSpeaker3:58

      Oh, like, "Presque ne compte pas," like, uh, almost, uh, like, almost doesn't count. It's funny because I feel like, uh, a lot of my adult life now, one of my sort of go-to sayings is, you know, "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good." I'm really into, like, good enough. Like, it's better to, like, try. It's better to do something. Uh, you know, it's better to fail quickly and learn and keep moving forward than to not try something. Like, basically, I don't want to be crippled by perfectionism.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett4:20

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SPSpeaker4:20

       And sort of like my mom is very much a perfectionist. You know, like, "If you can't do it right, don't do it." I'm sort of like, "Ah, I think it's better to try and learn and improve."

   11. SBSteven Bartlett4:29

       But she's accomplished a lot of things with that approach.

   12. SPSpeaker4:31

       Yeah, she... Yeah, she has, for sure.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett4:33

       What about emotions? This is something you- I've heard, heard you sort of talked about a lot, is in that environment where your mother and father aren't getting along well, I think I, I heard you say that your- you hadn't seen your father really happy before he'd passed away.

   14. SPSpeaker4:45

       Yeah. [chuckles]

   15. SBSteven Bartlett4:46

       Was it an emotional household in terms of affection?

   16. SPSpeaker4:49

       No, it was a very unemotional household. That said, though, you know, it was a safe, relatively happy household. Like, it was, it was fine, you know, and, and I was close to a lot of my extended family, and so I had a really good relationship with my grandparents and some of my aunts and uncles. And so, I mean, I basically would have characterized it as a totally happy family life until I became older and started seeing other people's families more, and it was kind of like: Oh, this seems even happier. [chuckles] You know what I mean?

   17. SBSteven Bartlett5:09

       Mm.

   18. SPSpeaker5:09

       Where it's, like, basically really good until you see what, uh, what else it can be, and then you're like, "This seems even better."

   19. SBSteven Bartlett5:14

       Mm.

   20. SPSpeaker5:14

       You know?

   21. SBSteven Bartlett5:15

       And your mum wasn't ever affectionate?

   22. SPSpeaker5:17

       You know, it always feels slightly conditional, you know, where it's like, uh, you know, she cares if you be... you know, if you perform well, like, if you do well, like, if you're a good kid or what- whatever. You know what I mean?

   23. SBSteven Bartlett5:28

       Well, where, where did climbing come into your life? 'Cause it- I've got some... I have found some photos of you climbing, and you look here, like, with your sister, I believe. Here we go. This one here.

   24. SPSpeaker5:36

       Yeah, [chuckles] classic.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett5:38

       How old are you there?

   26. SPSpeaker5:38

       Uh, I don't know. I mean, I don't know, like, six or something, or eight. Uh, it's hard for me to tell, like, medium-sized kids' ages.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett5:45

       Why cl- why climbing?

   28. SPSpeaker5:46

       Oh, why not? It's so freaking cool. Have you, have you rock climbed?

   29. SBSteven Bartlett5:49

       I've... Yeah, I have.

   30. SPSpeaker5:50

       You go to a gym?
3. 9:40 – 14:05

   Why His Upbringing Shaped His Risk Tolerance

   1. SBSteven Bartlett9:40

      And for the average person that doesn't know what free soloing is, what's the, like, definition of it?

   2. SPSpeaker9:44

      That's climbing without a rope, so climbing without protection, which is definitely what I'm most well known for now. But in the context of professional climbing, I've done tons of other things in climbing. Like, most of the time, you have a rope on. Most of the time, you're doing other sorts of things, but it's like the free soloing is what you wind up being well known for because that, like, breaks into the mainstream a lot more.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett10:04

      I'm really intrigued generally by people like you, who, like, take-- I, I mean, take the path less traveled in their career and then maybe nearer the, the end of the graph, pick up traction. And I have this piece of paper and this pen-

   4. SPSpeaker10:18

      Mm

   5. SBSteven Bartlett10:18

      ... because I'd love if you could, from the age of, let's say, eighteen, how-- you're, you're now forty years old.

   6. SPSpeaker10:24

      Yeah, I turned forty this year. Getting old.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett10:26

      Could you draw a graph showing how your career looks in terms of success? And you can measure that by money or attention or whatever.

   8. SPSpeaker10:35

      Let's see. So it was kind of like-

   9. SBSteven Bartlett10:38

      Nothing, nothing

   10. SPSpeaker10:38

       ... slow a little bit, and then, like, this-ish.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett10:41

       Yeah.

   12. SPSpeaker10:42

       And then kind of like, meh, and then basically just like, like this, where you're basically, like, kind of flat but growing, and then you have Free Solo, where it jumps a ton. It's, like, kind of crazy. And then, and then it keeps kind of growing at a slightly faster rate than before, and then it basically jumps a ton because of the building thing again.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett10:57

       I, I find this fascinating because most people in their lives wouldn't be willing to endure this phase, eighteen to twenty-nine, where progressively-

   14. SPSpeaker11:05

       Well, but it's not enduring. It's so great. Like, I would do that again. I loved it so much. Like, I mean, I often think I'd be so happy to just start over from zero, because, like, all the places that I go climbing now, I've been climbing there for twenty years, and I've, like, done most of the things I can do, and, you know, I've sort of, like, tapped out a lot of stuff in the western US. And I'm like: Man, I would love to just hit the re-zero button and start over. Because you'd have so much stuff to do, and it's so amazing.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett11:26

       I guess that's the, that's the different-- the, the fault of my question is that I said the word endure, but you see it as-

   16. SPSpeaker11:33

       Yeah, you get to climb every single thing you see. It's amazing. Yeah, I mean, and that's the thing is, like, from age eighteen to, to thirty, I basically did try to climb every single thing I could see because I was just like: I'm learning, I'm growing. This is amazing. I climb everything. And, like, now I'm actually much more strategic about it, because doing tons of easy climbing, like, doesn't really help me at this point. I'm not gonna make, like, big technique gains. It basically just makes me tired without, without the right kind of gains. It'd be like somebody-- It'd be like an elite runner just jogging for miles and miles every day, and you're kind of like, that's not gonna make you-- that's not gonna improve your marathon time if you're already, like, an elite runner.... it, it might be fun, but it's just not gonna, like, move the needle for you.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett12:11

       Through this period of your life, eighteen to thirty, you're, you're optimizing for just having fun, doing things you enjoy?

   18. SPSpeaker12:16

       Well, I mean, no, I was always, I was always challenging myself. Like, basically, I was optimizing for, like, what's the next thing I can do that pushes me a little bit?

   19. SBSteven Bartlett12:23

       But you weren't optimizing for how to get rich or- [chuckles]

   20. SPSpeaker12:26

       [chuckles] Well, well, then I would've gotten a job. If I was optimizing for getting rich, I would've freaking finished my college degree and gotten a job.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett12:32

       I say this in part 'cause I interview so many people who pursued careers that are often considered not real jobs, like comedians-

   22. SPSpeaker12:39

       Mm

   23. SBSteven Bartlett12:39

       ... or magicians, and I tend to find the same thing. Between the age of eighteen and thirty, they optimize for something that isn't necessarily being rich or famous.

   24. SPSpeaker12:47

       Mm.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett12:48

       And then at some point, the graph looks like this.

   26. SPSpeaker12:50

       Well, it's because, I, I mean, I think... You know, I'm sure you know this, but I mean, the, the world really, it's like a winner-take-all economy type deal. It's like, basically, if you're the dude that does the thing, all of a sudden, your earnings go insane.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett13:02

       Mm.

   28. SPSpeaker13:02

       But until you become the dude that does the thing, I mean, you know, if you're, like, the best magician or the best comedian or the best whatever, then all of a sudden, you make an insane amount of money. But when you're just, like, one of many struggling comedians, you're, you know, you're struggling. And so I think for me as a climber, you're sort of like, "Oh, I'm just a dude living in my van, climbing." But then at a certain point, I'm, like, the dude that, you know, I'm like, "Oh, you're that guy that climbs without the rope," and you're like, "Oh, yeah, cool." And then all of a sudden, your earnings are like phew.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett13:25

       Was this um- was this a difficult period of your life, this eighteen to thirty?

   30. SPSpeaker13:29

       No, it was, like, the best. Well, obviously, it was, like, fr- you know, I was, like, trying to juggle relate... Like, I wanted to get a girlfriend. You're a young twenties man living alone in a car, like, wanting to be better at something than you are, but not, not quite knowing the way and not knowing what you're doing with your life. So no, so obviously, there was tons of emotional turmoil throughout it. But no, I mean, retrospectively, it's, like, amazing.
4. 14:05 – 19:02

   How Losing His Father Changed Him Forever

   1. SBSteven Bartlett14:05

      Your dad passing-

   2. SPSpeaker14:07

      Mm

   3. SBSteven Bartlett14:07

      ... what, what impact did that have on you outside of it somewhat liberating you to, to make decisions that outside of his expectations?

   4. SPSpeaker14:13

      Well, I mean, obviously, it was... You know, it's sad. It's hard. Like, and especially now, I'm sort of like, oh, it's too bad that, that I don't have a relationship with my dad, and he doesn't, you know, that my kids don't have a grandfather and all that kind of... You know, it's like, yeah, it's, it's tough. I think that the most immediate impact that it had maybe was just reminding me of my own mortality. You know, I mean, he, he died unexpectedly at fifty-five, just fell over in the airport and just fell over dead, um, like, heart attack. And so, you know, I mean, I think that that reminder of my own mortality has had a big impact on my career, my life, you know, my climbing world, whatever.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett14:46

      One might not expect you to go, quote-unquote, "do risky things" because of-

   6. SPSpeaker14:51

      Well, no, because the thing is, I think one of the reasons that people don't do risky things is because they have this, uh, you know, mistaken idea that they can live forever, basically. Be- and basically because people don't want to think about their own mortality, and so they're like: "Oh, I don't want to take any risks. I could die." And you're like: You know that you're gonna die either way.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett15:08

      Mm.

   8. SPSpeaker15:08

      And either way, when you die, you're gonna be bummed that you didn't live longer because, you know, it's like, like, the life expectancy in the US is seventy-eight. And you're like, great. Say you make it to... for men, whatever. Like, say you make it that far, you're still gonna be like: "Man, I wish I had twenty-two more years to, like, watch my grandkids graduate college or whatever." You know, it's like, it's still gonna feel like too little.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett15:26

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SPSpeaker15:27

       And so I'm kind of like, you're better off dying at fifty-five in an accident, but having done many things that you're proud of and, you know, like, led a life that you're, that you're proud of, than dying at seventy-eight and still wishing you had more but having done none of the things that you wanted to do.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett15:41

       It is interesting. It does appear that people live as if we think we're gonna live forever.

   12. SPSpeaker15:44

       Yeah, it's totally insane. I mean, everyone's like: "Oh, I don't take any risk," and you're like, "Yeah, well, you can take no risk in your life, and you're still gonna freaking die." So you might as well take smart, calculated risks and do all the things that you wanna do and at least die happy when you go. [chuckles]

   13. SBSteven Bartlett15:57

       What does this mean to you to, like, live intentionally?

   14. SPSpeaker15:59

       Well, that's exactly it, like, choosing the, the risk that you're willing to take, making choices, like, using your time the way you want to use it.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett16:06

       I was looking at, I think it was your, your personality, a personality test you did. It said you were-

   16. SPSpeaker16:10

       Mike, did I do a personality test?

   17. SBSteven Bartlett16:12

       Um-

   18. SPSpeaker16:12

       I'm like, how much material do you have? [chuckles] I'm like, Jesus Christ. [laughing] Like, how many, like, things do you have?

   19. SBSteven Bartlett16:17

       I have unlimited things.

   20. SPSpeaker16:18

       I know. I'm so impressed. [chuckles]

   21. SBSteven Bartlett16:20

       On this, uh, personality test, it says you're, you know, higher on thrill-seeking and sensation-seeking, but then also significantly higher than the average male on urgency, which I think kind of overlays with what you were just saying there of, like, making the decision to do something.

   22. SPSpeaker16:32

       Yeah, basically because your time is short and you're gonna die, so get on with it.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett16:36

       It says here you're higher on conscientiousness.

   24. SPSpeaker16:39

       Very polite, you know.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett16:40

       [chuckles] Thrill-seeking, sensation-seeking. You're low on boredom.

   26. SPSpeaker16:44

       I think low on boredom means that, you know, you don't get bored.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett16:47

       Perseverance, you're very high on perseverance.

   28. SPSpeaker16:49

       Yeah, I think that's the same as low on boredom.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett16:51

       And low on n- neuroticism.

   30. SPSpeaker16:53

       That's for sure.
5. 19:02 – 21:51

   Why Mastery Takes Years (And What Most People Get Wrong)

   1. SBSteven Bartlett19:02

      If your kids came to you... You have two girls, right?

   2. SPSpeaker19:03

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett19:04

      If they came to you and said, "Dad," like, "give me advice on what I should aim at in life," would you tell them?

   4. SPSpeaker19:09

      Oh, I wouldn't, I wouldn't give them advice. I'd be like: "You do you. You find the thing you love to do, go hard. You know, basically, like, learn some skills, get good at something. Like, what do you like to do?" I mean, that's kinda the thing for me, especially with climbing, is like, if someone had told me, like, "You're gonna train climbing for the rest of your life," I'd be like: "Oh, that sounds like kind of a grind," you know? [chuckles] Because, I mean, it is-

   5. SBSteven Bartlett19:26

      [chuckles]

   6. SPSpeaker19:26

      ... it is hard work. You're, like, hiking uphill with a heavy backpack, and it's cold, and it's windy, and it's like, it's basically physically uncomfortable. I mean, being a professional rock climber means that you're physically uncomfortable all the time. [chuckles] Like, like often, you know, like it's, you know, it's hard.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett19:39

      Yeah.

   8. SPSpeaker19:39

      But if you're doing it because you freaking love doing it, it doesn't feel very hard. And so, I mean, I think the key for a kid is find the thing that doesn't feel like hard work.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett19:47

      And when you started, were you scared of, of big, tall rock faces and stuff like that?

   10. SPSpeaker19:53

       I mean, yeah, I had, like, a healthy intimidation of things. I mean, like, my first season in Yosemite, the first time seeing El Cap as a climber, uh, I was 19, and it looks impossible. It looks completely insane. I was like: "That's so big!" But then, you know, within a couple seasons, uh, you know, I climbed some bigger walls, learned how to climb, and then a friend and I had this sort of season goal, like we were gonna climb in Yosemite all season with the aspiration at the end to climb El Cap in a day. So basically, there was this long progression on El Cap, specifically, where it's like you go from just trying to get up it, to trying to get up it faster, to trying to get up it with just your hands and feet, still using protection. But basically, there's, like, all these steps you can take. And so over a bunch of seasons, you know, I climbed El Cap, like, 60 times, different routes, all these different things. And then eventually you're sort of like, "Oh, maybe I can start thinking about free soloing it," which is where the film Free Solo comes in. And then eventually you do this thing, but then people are like: "Well, aren't you scared?" And you're kinda like, "Well, I've spent 10 years, like, building up on this thing."

   11. SBSteven Bartlett20:45

       I guess that's what people don't see.

   12. SPSpeaker20:47

       Yeah.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett20:48

       So they just-

   14. SPSpeaker20:49

       I mean, like, the documentary Free Solo, I think does a pretty good job of showing the, the direct preparation, like the training involved in doing that specific climb, but it just doesn't show the, uh, like, eight years before that, I guess, because the documentary was filmed over two years, and I guess I've been going since 2006, so it was nine years before that, that I'd been going to Yosemite, and I'd been spending maybe three months a year climbing walls.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett21:10

       Hmm. I guess that's the illusion of, like, all people that do great things and then become, like, athletes or sprinters or whatever, Ronaldo or Messi, is you, you don't get to see the-

   16. SPSpeaker21:19

       Yeah, the whole life that they put into doing the thing.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett21:21

       Yeah.

   18. SPSpeaker21:22

       Yeah.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett21:22

       So it looks, it look, looks like a magic trick when we see the outcome. When we show up, show up on Netflix to watch you climb Taipei 101, we're like, "Whoa!

   20. SPSpeaker21:28

       Yeah.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett21:28

       He's hanging with it from his leg."

   22. SPSpeaker21:29

       Yeah, I mean, people watch some of those programs, and they're like: "He just walked up and did it," and you're like, "Well, yeah, after 30 years of practice," [chuckles] like, I just walked up and did it. But no, it's not like just walking up and doing it.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett21:39

       Hmm. Part of the illusion, yeah.

   24. SPSpeaker21:41

       I mean, like, y- uh, I've literally been climbing five days a week for 30 years. Like, that's so much climbing. [chuckles] Like, I freaking love climbing, and I, I climb a lot.

6. 21:51 – 25:56

   What Happens When Fear Hits During Practice?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett21:51

      On this, um, on this idea of, like, exposure therapy as it relates to, like, fear and anxiety and confronting one's, uh, things that terrify them, was that... In the early days, were you-- I'm trying to understand, were you, like, scared at some point?

   2. SPSpeaker22:01

      Oh, all the time. That's actually something that I think, uh, you know, I've obviously done so many interviews around fear and, like, managing fear and all that, and I've talked about fear a lot of different ways over, over the years, and I think as I've gotten older, I've sort of come to realize that, that actually, you're just scared all the time as a climber. Like, low-level fear, low lev- like, but you're... But climbing is fundamentally scary. Like, it's always kinda scary because there are always consequences. Like, even if you're climbing with a rope, you're still always visualizing, like, what happens if the rope breaks? Like, what if, you know, like, is this safe? Like, you know, is the gear good? Like, is this actually safe? And so you're always a little bit scared, and so after years and years of always [chuckles] being scared, you get pretty good at managing that kind of stuff.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett22:40

      Because there's a lot of sort of misconceptions swirling around this brain scan you've got.

   4. SPSpeaker22:43

      Yeah, no, I hate all that stuff. That's just all from the film Free Solo.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett22:46

      Yeah.

   6. SPSpeaker22:46

      It was, like, too short of a scene in the film. They needed a little more. They needed to let it breathe, you know, explain things a little better, I think.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett22:52

      So they scanned a control subject, a- another person, scanned you, looked at the amygdala in your brain, and that the conclusion that a lot of people have arrived at is that you don't experience fear because when they look at these two brain scans, your amygdala is lighting up less when you're shown scary images, basically, right?

   8. SPSpeaker23:08

      But, like, shown just this image, like, what does that even mean? Like, my brain's purple, and his brain is orange. You're like, [chuckles] you're like: "What does that mean?" Like, I don't know. But no, I mean, the, the thing is, though, and this is what I wish was explained in the film better, is that this is... We're being shown black-and-white photos inside an fMRI. So you're inside a sealed metal tube, you're totally safe, you're physically safe and comfortable, and you're being shown black-and-white photos. And so to me, obviously, that's not gonna light up the fear response in my brain, 'cause you're looking at pictures, [chuckles] you're like: "Who cares? I'm totally safe." But in a control subject, uh, you know, apparently, your brain sort of responds to images one way or another. But I'm kinda like, I've been climbing for 20 years, so I've been, like, scared quite a lot, and you're kind of like, well, black-and-white photos start to lose, lose their edge if you've been scared all the time for 20 years. [chuckles]

   9. SBSteven Bartlett23:50

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SPSpeaker23:50

       So it's like, obviously, that's not gonna trigger much.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett23:52

       Yeah, and I imagine everybody in their life can think of a s- a scenario where they have mastery that would sc- like, a stand-up comedian looking out at a stage probably wouldn't be as scared as me-

   12. SPSpeaker24:01

       Yeah

   13. SBSteven Bartlett24:02

       ... uh, 'cause that would, that would terrify me. Um, so a- again, this is not necessarily some sort of neurological deficiency.

   14. SPSpeaker24:08

       No, I mean, I think the real takeaway is that I have an amygdala, and it works.... mm-hmm, you know what I mean? Like, 'cause I think if, if the results had shown that I was missing my amygdala, then, then I would have all kinds of- I would have died already at youth, 'cause I wouldn't be able to function as a, as a human, basically. But, you know, had it shown something like that, where there are, like, structural differences or, like, some real change, but this is basically just showing that after 20 years of conditioning, I respond differently than an average person. And you're like, "Yeah, no kidding." Like, if you put a monk into an fMRI, their brain responds totally differently than an average person as well.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett24:37

       Which I actually think is a really inspiring conclusion because it means that we can all-

   16. SPSpeaker24:41

       Mm-hmm

   17. SBSteven Bartlett24:42

       ... grasp our fears better. And even, you know, people won't know this about me, but 10 years ago, I sat down on camera with my friend Ash in his apartment to record a two-minute video, and as I sat there, I couldn't-- I was so scared I couldn't get the words out. So you actually, in this two-minute video that comes out, you see it go from night and day in the background just because we did that many cuts over seven hours to try and get me to say two minutes on camera. And obviously, after 10 years of being on camera, I can now speak without shitting myself, and I imagine my brain state looks significantly different-

   18. SPSpeaker25:08

       Totally

   19. SBSteven Bartlett25:08

       ... because of that exposure therapy.

   20. SPSpeaker25:09

       Totally. Yeah, you should do the fMRI.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett25:12

       [laughs]

   22. SPSpeaker25:12

       You should do... Yeah, you should've done 10 years ago, 'cause then you'd have your control, [chuckles] and then you'd do it now, and it'd be totally different.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett25:18

       But also, the psychologists I've sat with all confirm this. They talk about exposure therapy.

   24. SPSpeaker25:21

       Yeah. And, and I went through exactly the same thing with public speaking. Like, I was always so afraid of public speaking. I was also very shy and, like, s- just not, like... It was terrifying. And now, because of the free solo film tour and, you know, all the public things I've done since then, I'm, like, basically fine. You know, it's like you still get a little nervous, but it's, like, basically easy now, and you're kind of like, "Well, that's a total change."

   25. SBSteven Bartlett25:43

       Mm-hmm.

   26. SPSpeaker25:43

       It's like obviously there's a tremendous capacity for humans to learn.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett25:47

       People talk to you about fear all the time because, I mean, your work-

   28. SPSpeaker25:51

       'Cause climbing's really freaking scary.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett25:53

       It's scary.

   30. SPSpeaker25:53

       It makes sense.
7. 25:56 – 33:43

   The Most Effective Way To Actually Overcome Fear

   1. SBSteven Bartlett25:56

      And they also realize, I think, at some deep level, that the thing holding them back from who they think they want to be or who they aspire to be is fear. Often, it's judgment of someone else, it's taking a risk.

   2. SPSpeaker26:05

      Totally.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett26:06

      So you've become, for many people, they're like, "Tell me, tell me how to overcome."

   4. SPSpeaker26:11

      Yeah. Well, I think that everyone's like: What's your hack to overcome fear? And you're like: There's no hack. You just get really freaking scared over and over for so long [chuckles] , and eventually, it's not that scary anymore. But I will say that that's, like, a very enduring way to overcome your fear. It's like if you're willing to go through that process, then you are actually unafraid, you know, because, like, you can do like hacks. I mean, you can, you can, like, crank up loud rock music and just go for it, you know? Like, and there are plenty of examples of that in, in what I'd call gravity-assisted sports. Like, say, if you're gonna jump a cliff on skis, like, you can get to the edge and be like, "This is really scary," and then be like, "Three, two, one, do it!" And just, like, go. In climbing, you can't really do that as much because it's so slow. Like, when you climb, you make one move, and then you make another move, and then you're like, "Do I still wanna be here?" Like, basically, fear creeps in a lot more.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett26:55

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SPSpeaker26:55

      But sort of in gravity-assisted sports, you can have more of that moment where you just, like, overcome your fear, and then it happens. You know, like making a big drop in a kayak or, like, skis or things like that, whereas, like, once you commit, it's happening one way or another. Anyway, there's a lot to get into with, like... [chuckles]

   7. SBSteven Bartlett27:08

      No, but I, I, I mean, I want to get into it. I, I watched a video of you climbing Half Dome, I think it was.

   8. SPSpeaker27:13

      Yeah.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett27:13

      And it, it looks like you got scared halfway up, or-

   10. SPSpeaker27:16

       Yeah, yeah. Well, so that video is actually filmed later, so the voiceover in that video is me talking about the experience of me free soloing when I was totally alone, and I did get really scared on Half Dome, and I had this whole sor- somewhat traumatic climbing experience near the top of the wall. But then when we went back to film it, I had a different traumatic [chuckles] experience while we were filming. Less traumatic, but, uh, but, like, very scary for a moment, and they got that on camera, so they basically, in the film, they just cut the two together as like a-

   11. SBSteven Bartlett27:39

       Oh

   12. SPSpeaker27:39

       ... 'cause it shows me, like, being really scared.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett27:41

       What's Half Dome to start with, and then what was the traumatic experience?

   14. SPSpeaker27:44

       Yeah, so Half Dome, for anyone who hasn't seen, is, uh, is this just totally amazing wall in Yosemite. It's a two-thousand-foot granite face. Actually, um, it's the North Face logo. It's, uh-

   15. SBSteven Bartlett27:53

       Oh.

   16. SPSpeaker27:53

       It's freaking... It's-- That's Half Dome.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett27:54

       Oh, okay.

   18. SPSpeaker27:55

       Yeah, so it's, like, an iconic wall in Yosemite. Um, it looks like half of a dome, but actually, it's more like a hockey puck just shoved in. It's actually a full dome, depending how you look at it, but the northwest face is vertical for two thousand feet. It's incredible. And so I free solo-- That was one of the first, like, major free solos I did in 2008, um, and one of the things that sort of made me a professional climber in a way. But when I did the climb, I did the bare minimum preparation. I basically, like, didn't know... It was, it was the biggest thing I'd ever free soloed. I didn't quite know how to, like, go about getting ready for it. Anyway, I, I climbed it and basically hadn't practiced enough, was really freaking scared, got off route, got confused, skipped some stuff, and then at the very top, had this whole moment of extreme panic. [chuckles] You know, basically, like, got up into some stuff and all sort of, like, crumbled mentally and, like, sort of barely managed to finish this upper slab. Like, the hardest part of the climb is, like, right near the top. I was trying to walk across this ledge. Basically, I've walked across that ledge face in and face out, and you-- normally, people hand traverse it or they crawl across it. There are, like, different ways to go across the ledge, and I've done it every which way. And then we were up there filming, and I was like, "Oh, I'm gonna walk it face out," but it turns out when you walk it face out, it's really freaking [chuckles] scary. And so I made it kind of halfway and was like, "Oh, my gosh," and then bailed.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett29:04

       And when you say you're having, like a, like a crisis in your, your mind, what does... What is that? Is that just, "Oh, my god, what am I..." Like, how does that sound when you panic?

   20. SPSpeaker29:13

       Well, I mean, so in this case, so walking across this ledge, it's like it starts maybe as a foot wide, so your foot is fully on the ledge, and you're shuffling across it, but then, at a certain point, yeah, I mean, that's, that's-

   21. SBSteven Bartlett29:23

       Put the video, I'll put it on the screen for anyone watching.

   22. SPSpeaker29:25

       Yeah, that's, that's the ledge. But basically, at the narrowest part, your feet are sticking out over the lip of it, and the wall bulges ever so slightly, so it for- forces your back out a little. And so you're basically, like, rocking on your heels with, uh, I don't know, like, a seventeen-hundred-foot drop or something, or eighteen-hundred-foot drop, like, straight down below you. And so, you know, it's, like, pretty, [chuckles] it's pretty intense. Anyway, and so I thought I was gonna walk across it like that, and I made it to the bulging part and was suddenly like, "Oh, my God, this isn't, like, this isn't for me," and then managed to, like, shuffle back and, and change my strategy.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett29:57

       Is it like panic in your head?

   24. SPSpeaker29:59

       It's not panic, but you're like, "Oh, oh, I made the wrong choice." [chuckles] "Like, this is bad. This is bad," you know? I mean, it's not like full, like, five-alarm bell, like panic, panic, but yeah, you're like, "Oh, I'm so screwed."

   25. SBSteven Bartlett30:12

       And you have fallen a long, long way before. I was hearing about a time when you were young, and you fell off a, a mountain and called your mother, managed to call your mother and-

   26. SPSpeaker30:19

       Yeah, but that was like sliding down an icy couloir-type thing. It's a little different than, like, free falling off of a cliff. That's like sliding down a mountain. But yeah, I got totally messed up and, and, uh-... Yeah. Yeah, and I've, like, broken my arm several times as a kid, falling off things and, and then with a rope as a climber, you take big falls, like, routinely, you know, when you have protection. That's, like, part of the sport, basically.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett30:40

       Hmm.

   28. SPSpeaker30:40

       I mean, it's certainly easy to visualize falling 700- you know, when you're, like, standing on a little ledge, and you're just bulging and you're looking down, you're- you know, it's easy to be [chuckles] like, "Oh, my God!" You know, it's like if you just bend forward a little bit, you're just gonna take a swan dive, like, 7,000 feet to the ground.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett30:53

       The stats in this sport are... I mean, of, of fatalities, uh, how do they compare to other sports?

   30. SPSpeaker30:59

       Uh, safer than you would think. That's the thing, is everyone thinks it seems crazy, but, uh, it's not that crazy. I don't know actual statistics, but I suspect that it's actually pretty comparable to, to skiing or something. You know, because, like, recreational skiers die all the time, like falling in tree wells or, like, going off cliffs by accident or things like that. Climbing is actually surprisingly safe, which is one of the things I love about climbing. I mean, climbing is very-- it's very, uh, sort of binary, where it's like, either you're totally safe or you're gonna die, and the odds of you dying are very, very, very small, but because they're, they're there, they always keep you on. You know what I mean? Like, it basically keeps you alert, but you're never really gonna get hurt.
8. 33:43 – 39:09

   Why Modern Life Never Fit Him

   1. SBSteven Bartlett33:43

      But that's, like, how most of the world live. We kind of, we all live in, like, you know-

   2. SPSpeaker33:46

      I just don't know if it's for me. I don't know. I mean, doesn't that just seem... I mean, I had this moment. I've been in New York a couple days, and I, I took the subway down to see some, see some friends, and I was, like, coming out of the tunnel, and it's, like, packed with people, and I was just, like, looking at the ground, and I was, like, just, you know, following someone else's footsteps up this, like, beat-down path of stairs, and I was like, "I couldn't live like this," like, not day in and day out every day. Like, this is just... Like, feeling like you're just doing the exact same thing as everyone else around you. I'm like, "Oh, it seems so, so boring."

   3. SBSteven Bartlett34:16

      It's funny because so, so many of us look at your life and go, "Wow, that's not very normal," but actually, maybe at a foundational level, you're living a much more normal life than... I mean, you're out in nature, you're moving your body.

   4. SPSpeaker34:29

      Yeah. Yeah, in that, in that way, for sure. I'm, like, going on cool adventures and going out, and I don't know.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett34:35

      I think that's also part of why the, the, uh, sort of attraction and allure with your life, especially when you watch Free Solo, is you do seem to be a free man in a way where most of us aren't free as such.

   6. SPSpeaker34:47

      Yeah, I mean, well, I think we're all sort of aspiring to that to some extent. I mean, most people see that, though, as, like, they get their vacation for the year, they- they're planning to retire at some point, and then they're gonna have their freedom, and you're kind of like, "Well, I don't know. I mean, maybe you've got to try to live that way as much as possible."

   7. SBSteven Bartlett35:00

      If, if your, if your young girls came up to you, June and Alice, and said, "Dad, what's- what is a meaningful life? Like, what are the principles of living a, a fulfilling, meaningful life?" Would you give them advice there?

   8. SPSpeaker35:09

      Yeah, yeah. I mean, it'd be a long, rambling, multi-day conversation with them about... But, I mean, following your own goals is, is I think, you know, certainly one of the, the cores of having a meaningful life. Like, having things that you find valuable. I, I mean, really, like, living in line with your values, finding things that are important to you and pursuing them with as much as you can give them.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett35:31

      When you look at your early... so twenties to thirties, it kind of looks like you're living like a Buddhist a little bit.

   10. SPSpeaker35:36

       I mean, uh, yeah, I went on a, a trip once where they called me the monk. [chuckles] It's, uh, just because I was living such a sort of ascetic lifestyle. I was, like, reading... I've, I've never- I don't drink, and I don't, like, party, and I don't, just for personal preference, whatever. And so I'm just, like, living in my little van and reading books and climbing all the time. [chuckles] Like-

   11. SBSteven Bartlett35:55

       Have you-

   12. SPSpeaker35:55

       ... Those are the things that I'm into doing, you know? It's like it's... Yeah, it's just doing what you want to do.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett36:00

       Have you ever been depressed or...

   14. SPSpeaker36:03

       Yeah, probably not like deep, clinical depression, but there's certainly periods from time to time where you're just like, "What am I doing? Or why? Or what are my goals?" Like, you know, what's... And I think to me, the most depressing thing is that, you know, I've put, like, my whole life into climbing, like, trying to be the best you can be all the time, and sometimes you put tons of effort in, and you just don't see results. Like, for whatever reason, you just suck. You're like, "I'm trying so hard, and I'm just, like, not as good as I want to be." And like, that's challenging, you know, but that's-... I mean, everybody faces that to some extent, where you're like: "I'm working hard at a thing, but I'm just not achieving the results that I want."

   15. SBSteven Bartlett36:36

       And between the, between that, the sort of that period of no man's land, between twenty and thirty, where your career hasn't taken off yet, the n- documentary's not out, you've not climbed Taipei. How much money are you earning from climbing?

   16. SPSpeaker36:49

       I mean, the first- my first couple of years, my sponsorship through The North Face was like, te- uh, I think my first year was like 10K a year. I was like, "This is amazing," because I was living in my car. And, um, you know, making ten grand when you live by yourself in a van is, like, more than you need, basically. Um, it obviously went up beyond that at, at some point, but it was, you know, like in the ten to a hundred range for the first- for the whole... Yeah, for years.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett37:14

       Then at some point it increases.

   18. SPSpeaker37:15

       Yeah, and then it increases. I mean, then Free Solo is obviously, like, a big thing.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett37:19

       Yeah.

   20. SPSpeaker37:19

       And that sort of opened up all these opportunities, uh, because then I started doing corporate speaking and stuff like that, and the-- I mean, as I'm sure you know, that's just like a whole different world. And so then you go from just, like, making some money from sponsors to, like, making money from, from other corporations, and they're like, okay, now you're making some money.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett37:35

       One of the things when I was, I was hearing you talk about some of your incredible climbing stories is, um, I was trying to understand what role visualization or, or your preparation plays and how that's, like, transferable to, to me and my life.

   22. SPSpeaker37:48

       Mm.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett37:48

       We talked a little bit about just how much preparation you did for something like El Cap, but you, you-- it sounds like you really break down the challenge into smaller bits-

   24. SPSpeaker37:57

       Mm-hmm

   25. SBSteven Bartlett37:57

       ... and then really go through those, those individual steps, whereas a lot of people would just look at El Cap and go, "Oh, my God!" They'd be terrified, and they'd say, "Impossible."

   26. SPSpeaker38:04

       Yeah, which is fair. I mean, I spent years looking at El Cap and being like: "That's too big. That's impossible." And then, you know, after years of that, I kept hoping that I would look at it and it would, like, look easy somehow, and I'd be like: "Cool, now I'm going to do it." And it just never looked easy. And so then finally I was like: "Okay, I'm going to have to, like, put some real work into it." And then I started slowly breaking it down, and, and, and then once you, like, break it into pieces and start working on the pieces, then you're kind of like, okay, it starts to feel more reasonable.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett38:29

       Break it into pieces and start working on the pieces. What does that mean in terms of climbing? So if we-- I mean, I've got this, this, uh, model here of-

   28. SPSpeaker38:36

       Yeah, Taipei 101.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett38:38

       Taipei. So, and, you know, and this is also a metaphor for any challenge I have in my life.

   30. SPSpeaker38:41

       Okay, but this is actually perfect because it's right here.
9. 39:09 – 44:56

   What Success Cost Behind The Scenes

   1. SPSpeaker39:09

      anywhere where you see it looking a little bit different, you know, it's like this whole bottom part is like a low-angle slab. It's, like, punctuated with these two little ruies, these little, like, coin things or whatever, the clouds or whatever they are. Um, then there are the dragons on the corners. These are all overhanging. Like, each of these eight blocks is, like, a big overhanging thing. It feels a little bit different. Then you get up here, there's, like, these balconies. These are actually overhanging... Like, basically each little segment of this is quite different. You know, obviously, on this model, it, like, looks, looks the same, but, um, each transition between the different pieces is like a thing, so I checked out all of them with ropes. And, and yeah, you just go piece by piece all the way up the whole thing.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett39:42

      And you hadn't ever climbed it before we saw it on Netflix Live?

   3. SPSpeaker39:45

      Well, I hadn't free soloed it, no-

   4. SBSteven Bartlett39:47

      Free soloed it

   5. SPSpeaker39:47

      ... but I had climbed it, uh, I'd climbed all the pieces with a rope, for sure. I'd, like, checked out the different things.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett39:52

      Okay, so you, so you, you look at these as individual challenges-

   7. SPSpeaker39:56

      Yeah

   8. SBSteven Bartlett39:56

      ... every step.

   9. SPSpeaker39:56

      Yeah, it's like you go-- Well, even, like, just getting off the ground, the first move is a slightly different move than any of the other moves. You have to, like, jump up to a thing and, like, press it out. Um, then climbing over these little clouds is a different thing. Each dragon is a different thing. Yeah, I mean, it's just... You know, there's a surprising amount of complexity to it. And so our first on the scout, you know, I had a note on my phone, and I'm just, like, writing down all the different-- basically, I'm trying to learn it the way you study anything, where I'm just, like, making notes and sort of, like, from floor fifty-four to seventy-two, it feels like this. I climb the southeast corner, the left arete, you know, just, and then, yeah, just writing it all down.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett40:29

       And I mean, there's this famous photo of you hanging with your leg.

   11. SPSpeaker40:31

       Yeah, that's this. These are the rings up here.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett40:33

       So you're hanging, you're hanging here, from here with your leg.

   13. SPSpeaker40:36

       Yeah. [chuckles]

   14. SBSteven Bartlett40:36

       Now, I, uh, this is really a question of endurance. Like, how do you plan to have the energy? Like, how do you know if you're going to have enough energy when you're up here, when you're just planning it?

   15. SPSpeaker40:47

       I mean, well, that's, this is what makes it exciting, because you can't be sure. But, you know, I've done a lot of climbing in my life, [chuckles] and I've done a lot of climbs that were, like, twenty-four hours. I mean, I've-- I had this experience in Patagonia once. It was a fifty-four-hour push, with, like, the last twenty hours, we hiked without food, um, because we got caught in a storm. It's a whole crazy story. But basically, you know, I've had a lot of experience in my life where I've done hard exercise for more than twenty-four hours, and so this, you know, I expected to take me somewhere in the hour-and-a-half, two-hour range, and I'm kind of like, yeah, I mean, I'll be tired after two hours of exercise, but I'm not going to be exhausted. You know what I mean? Like, I know that I have a much deeper reserve than that.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett41:22

       So much of the conversation around, um, after you'd done this, or some of the conversation was around whether this was a harder challenge than El Capitan.

   17. SPSpeaker41:29

       No, no, it's obviously much easier. I mean, I'm doing it on live television, you know? It's like, obviously, it's easier. But what makes it cool is that it's different, it's fun, it's challenging. Like, for me, it's really, like, in my sweet spot, where it is challenging enough... Like, it's, it's not easy, you know what I mean? Like, saying easier than El Cap, it doesn't... You know, El Cap was, like, a ten-year life project that I did in absolute secrecy. I did it on my terms, on the correct day. After years of effort, I had failed attempts. I had-- You know what I mean? Like, El Cap was, like, an all-consuming life project for years. Kind of like, obviously, you can't do that for live TV. It's like you just can't put... Anyway-

   18. SBSteven Bartlett42:07

       Mm-hmm

   19. SPSpeaker42:07

       ... but this was very much in my sweet spot, where you're like, oh, it's hard enough that it's, that it's hard. Like, it's cool, you know? Like, it's fun, it's interesting, the climbing is engaging. It's, uh, you know, gave me something to train for for months. It's like, it's super fun, but it's not, you know, it's not like the absolute limit of what I can do, because you just can't do that on live TV. I mean, if nothing else, so I was climbing the southeast arete because it gets good morning light, and it looks beautiful, and it's, like, great for filming.... but if I was trying to do the absolute most cutting-edge climb I could do, I'd be climbing the northwest arete, because it'd be full shade, because it'd be good, better conditions, you know, it'd be colder. Like, you just don't wanna be in the sun. It makes your skin... You know, it makes you hot and stuff.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett42:41

       Mm-hmm.

   21. SPSpeaker42:41

       And so, you know, just things like that, you're like, well, if you're doing it for TV and you're trying to broadcast it, then you want it to look good. But, like, if you're trying to do it for hard climbing in good conditions, you do it in full shade.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett42:53

       And Netflix had a, a ten-second delay just in case you fell.

   23. SPSpeaker42:56

       I mean, I'm sure part of it's in case you fall, but part of it's like, what if somebody unplugs one of the things? Or you know what I mean, like-

   24. SBSteven Bartlett43:01

       Mm.

   25. SPSpeaker43:01

       ... it's so complicated. There's so much stuff going on, it's insane.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett43:04

       Was there a hardest part of this, a part y- where you were at all, at all nervous?

   27. SPSpeaker43:08

       The thing I was most nervous about when I started was, were the bamboo boxes, like, doing these eight overhanging segments, 'cause they're just so relentlessly the same move, and it's just, it's pretty physical. Like, you get tired, for sure. I mean, the actual physical hardest moves, um, [chuckles] like actually randomly, one of these corners up here would've been quite a hard move, but there was this freaking security camera bolted onto the wall, and so you use the security camera as this handhold.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett43:30

       [chuckles]

   29. SPSpeaker43:30

       It was really pretty cool. And it was, like, bolted on with these giant bolts, so it, like, looked super safe, and, you know, it was, like, very robust and secure. But it would've been kind of like this extreme jump, which I wasn't... You know, it's probably possible, but would've been, like, a major thing. But instead, you just reef off the security camera, [chuckles] and I was like, "That's so cool." It was, uh... So there were a few things like that, like individual moves that are kind of muscly, but overall, it's the, the stamina, like, the challenge of doing this over and over for hundreds of feet that was the hardest thing.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett43:58

       Do you have a conversation with your, with your girls-
10. 44:56 – 47:40

    How Much Was He Really Paid To Risk His Life?

    1. SPSpeaker44:56

       who knows?

    2. SBSteven Bartlett44:57

       'Cause it's what? Like, there's not enough... It's too slippery? Um-

    3. SPSpeaker44:59

       Um, yeah, super slippery. Also, it's just the way the holds are. Like, I mean, the beauty of Taipei 101 is that the holds, like, they're good things to hold. They're close together, and you're just like, "Er," and you can hold them, and you feel secure. The Burj, I can barely span tip to tip to, like, reach between the holds.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett45:13

       Wow!

    5. SPSpeaker45:14

       And so then your face is, like, right against the glass, and you're, like, holding on like this.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett45:18

       Mm-hmm.

    7. SPSpeaker45:18

       And it's pretty hard. And you have to do the same thing 112 times in a row. [chuckles] It's, like, pretty hard to do it once, then you have to do it 100 times. You're like, "It's kinda hard."

    8. SBSteven Bartlett45:25

       The other thing that I saw, um, online after you'd climbed it, about one or two days after, everyone talk- started talking about how much you were paid to do it.

    9. SPSpeaker45:31

       Hmm.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett45:32

        I think 'cause you did an interview where you said-

    11. SPSpeaker45:33

        Well, it's funny, there were some quotes that were kind of taken out of context, because, yeah, a New York Times reporter asked me how much I was getting paid, and I was kind of like, "Ah, I don't want to talk about it, because it's kind of embarrassing," 'cause all my friends, it's, like, an embarrassingly high amount for my community. Like, in the climbing world, if you're getting paid to rock climb, you're like, "Great success! You're getting paid to climb. That's insane," you know? And so I thought it was, like, sort of an embarrassingly large amount, where I'm like, "Oh, this is kinda weird." But then he sort of poked around, and he started comparing it to, like, boxing matches and stuff, where people get paid, like, $20 million to, like, fight someone boxing.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett46:02

        Mm-hmm.

    13. SPSpeaker46:03

        And I was like, "Well, no, compared to that, it's an embarrassingly small amount," you know? It's like... Or if you compare it to, like, Major League Baseball contracts and things, then it's like, yeah, it's an embarrassingly small amount. But I was never complaining. Like, I thought it was great. I, I mean, I would do it for free. I mean, I've paid money to go up to the observation deck. The observation deck is way up here at the top, and the view is insane, and the city's incredible. And, you know, it's, like, 20 bucks or whatever to take the world's fastest elevator to the top of the building. And, you know, I've done that in the Burj as well, where you, like, pay the money, and you go to the very top of the building, and the view is insane. It's like, I do that, like, anywhere I travel, like the Sears, the Willis Tower or whatever, the Sears Tower in Chicago. Like, I've paid the money to go to the observation deck and see the view, and it's so cool. And I'm kind of like, if someone's willing to pay me to climb up to the observation deck, that's freaking cool. [chuckles]

    14. SBSteven Bartlett46:45

        Yeah. I think it's because w- people, again, they're sh- they're say... They're- they believe that this is, you're risking your entire life.

    15. SPSpeaker46:51

        Yeah.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett46:51

        And, and so, yeah.

    17. SPSpeaker46:52

        Mm-hmm.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett46:52

        They don't think of boxers as risking their entire life in the same way.

    19. SPSpeaker46:55

        Except they kind of are.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett46:56

        Unless... They are, yeah.

    21. SPSpeaker46:57

        And-

    22. SBSteven Bartlett46:57

        But they don't see it as that.

    23. SPSpeaker46:58

        I know. Of course, they don't see it as that, and that's totally understandable. I get that. But I see it as, like, anybody going into the boxing ring, and particularly if they're very mismatched, [chuckles] you know, like, you would think that there is some-

    24. SBSteven Bartlett47:10

        Mm

    25. SPSpeaker47:10

        ... real chance of grievous injury or, like, death. [chuckles]

    26. SBSteven Bartlett47:13

        Mm-hmm.

    27. SPSpeaker47:13

        You know, it's like, it's insane. And so I think that people overr- the, the thing is, I think people that don't know anything about anything, like, don't know anything about climbing, look at me climbing a building, they're like, "It's 50/50 if he lives or dies, like, no idea." And you're like, "No." If you put this in the context of all the things that I've climbed in my life, I felt very confident that I wouldn't fall off the building. You know, I was like... You know, obviously, it's never 100%, because, like, whatever, it's life. But, you know, it feels like 100%. You're like, "Oh, there's no chance I'm falling off this

11. 47:40 – 51:24

    What He Earned For Climbing Taipei 101

    1. SPSpeaker47:40

       building."

    2. SBSteven Bartlett47:40

       The rumor is, whether you got 500K to climb it from Netflix.

    3. SPSpeaker47:44

       Throughout my whole, like, you know, quote-unquote, "career" as a climber, I basically have never worried about money, and I've always just tried to do the thing and let it all play out at the end. And so I've done a ton of work for free over the years. Like, uh, like, actually, we were talking about that Half Dome film earlier, where I was like, I'm shuffling along. It's like, I did that film for free. I did tons of films like that for free, uh, just because you're kind of like, "Oh, it's part of being a professional climber, and I get to go climbing, and I'm up with my friends, filming on a thing." You're just like, "You're working for free. It's fine." But by doing all that stuff for free, like, I never s- I never stressed the day rate, never... You know, I was like, "I don't need to get paid to go have fun with my friends on a wall. Like, it's fine." But as a result of that film, you know, a year or two later, they wanna do an, a photoshoot up there for the cover of National Geographic, and so you just wind up in other things. And then, and then that got seen, and I wound up, uh, being profiled by 60 Minutes, which actually was one of the first sort of career inflection points. It was, like, this 60 Minutes profile in 2011 or something.... but basically, I've done a ton of work for free over my life as all part of, like, it's all part of the game, and I just love playing the game. And so you just, like, let it play out. And it's funny 'cause with this building, a lot of people thought that I was sort of underpaid by it. But afterward, uh, you know, some people have approached me about some bonuses and some other work stuff, and, like, basically, a lot has already sort of happened, and it's only been a couple weeks since the building. And I'm kind of like: "You know, you don't need to get paid for the thing itself, 'cause it always works, basically." I'm kind of like... I don't know. I'm like: "Don't get hung up on how much you get paid. Just do the thing, make sure it's freaking rad, and it all sorts itself out."

    4. SBSteven Bartlett49:13

       Yeah. Yeah, that- I mean, that's also been, like, um, the f- that's completely true for my life as well. Even this podcast, like, when we started the podcast in my kitchen, I mean, this is a replica of my kitchen, and Jack was here. There was no pa- there was no payment when we started it.

    5. SPSpeaker49:27

       Yeah, exactly.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett49:28

       But we were just doing a thing.

    7. SPSpeaker49:28

       Yeah, you make it as good as you can-

    8. SBSteven Bartlett49:30

       Yeah

    9. SPSpeaker49:30

       ... and eventually, it all sort of works, and you're like, "Cool."

    10. SBSteven Bartlett49:32

        I've I, I-- Because that, that, that pattern you've just described has played out for fifteen years of my life, I now... And again, my, my CFO and my commercial director might not love me saying this, but they know this about me, is and we even talked about it recently with a particular project, is like, don't let the inability to see where the money's gonna come from in the near term stop you pursuing something that you think is gonna create value. Because history shows that actually value, like, giving value out into the world, precedes the m- the ec- the economics.

    11. SPSpeaker50:03

        Totally.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett50:04

        And so, uh, it, it happened fifteen years of my life, where I... I remember when I started the social media business and people-- some- a guy sat me down in Google in London and explained to me why I would never make money from that business. He, like, he did the math for me, and the math was solid.

    13. SPSpeaker50:17

        Mm-hmm.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett50:17

        He was like: "If you do one, da, da, da, da, you won't make any money." And I was like-

    15. SPSpeaker50:21

        You're like: "Yeah, but I don't think that's true," you know? You're like, "Uh..."

    16. SBSteven Bartlett50:23

        You just... And you have no evidence, but-

    17. SPSpeaker50:25

        Yeah, but you just know it's gonna work.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett50:26

        Yeah.

    19. SPSpeaker50:26

        Yeah.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett50:26

        The Uber CEO sat here with me yesterday in that seat.

    21. SPSpeaker50:29

        Oh, yeah?

    22. SBSteven Bartlett50:29

        And he was telling me, he was like: "The thing is, there's this thing called Jevons paradox, where when something-

    23. SPSpeaker50:33

        Yeah, efficiency.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett50:34

        Yeah, when becoming things more efficient, whatever, people think of things in linear progression-

    25. SPSpeaker50:38

        Mm

    26. SBSteven Bartlett50:38

        ... but actually, there's exponential progression. So when we launched Uber, more people started taking taxis, so all of the models about how big this market were, were all wrong.

    27. SPSpeaker50:46

        Mm.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett50:46

        And I find the same in, in that, and I found the same in podcasting when we started about five years ago, was, yeah, like you sat me down and go: "Well, Steve, CPMs, you're gonna have to be getting a million downloads to make, like, to earn a living."

    29. SPSpeaker50:57

        Mm.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett50:57

        Like, mm, but-
12. 51:24 – 53:32

    What This Means About Risk And Reward

    1. SBSteven Bartlett51:24

       [paper rustling]

    2. SPSpeaker51:29

       Whoa, what's that on your face?

    3. SBSteven Bartlett51:31

       This is, uh, my Bon Charge face mask. I've been wearing this for some time now. They're a sponsor of the podcast. I put this on for fifteen, twenty minutes a day. I can sit here in the chair and wear it. Boosts my collagen production, helps with fine line blemishes, my complexion gets better, and then people, more people listen to the podcast 'cause I, I look better. Professional-grade equipment in such a small box. It's non-invasive, and having sat here with so many of the world's leading health professionals, there's various things that I repeatedly hear work and some things I'm a bit sceptical about. This is one of the things that almost all of my guests on this show have confirmed works. It is really, really, really effective. And they offer fast, free shipping worldwide with easy returns and exchanges, and you'll also get a one-year warranty on all of their products. And they're HSA and FSA eligible, giving you tax-free savings up to forty percent. And you can get twenty percent off when you order through my link at boncharge.com/doac. That's boncharge.com/doac. The deal applies sitewide. [paper rustling] I've had so many founders speak to me and say: "Why didn't this particular ad that I ran on this platform work for me?" Maybe the copy wasn't good, the creative wasn't strong, but usually the problem is they're not having the right conversation because that ad never reached the right person. And if you're in B2B marketing, that is much of the game. And this is where LinkedIn Ads solves that problem for you. Their targeting is ridiculously specific. You can target by job title, seniority, company size, industry, and even someone's skill set. And their network includes over a billion professionals. About a hundred and thirty million of them are decision-makers. So when you use LinkedIn Ads, you're putting your brand in front of the right people. And LinkedIn Ads also drive the highest B2B return on ad spend across all ad networks, in my experience. If you wanna give them a try, head over to linkedin.com/diary, and when you spend two hundred and fifty dollars on your first LinkedIn Ads campaign, you'll get an extra two hundred and fifty dollar credit from me for the next one. That's linkedin.com/diary. Terms and conditions apply. [paper rustling] It's funny, you, you talking about mortality earlier on, and, um,

13. 53:32 – 1:10:20

    The Moment You Truly Accept You Will Die

    1. SBSteven Bartlett53:32

       I think i- in the last couple of years, my mortality, like, realizing that I'm gonna die someday, has been such a, a wonderful thing to, to really remind myself of on, like-

    2. SPSpeaker53:39

       Mm

    3. SBSteven Bartlett53:39

       ... a frequent basis.

    4. SPSpeaker53:41

       What, uh, how come?

    5. SBSteven Bartlett53:42

       Just because... Okay, so there's many things. One of them is, um, [lips smack] the whole idea of, like, sunk cost bias-

    6. SPSpeaker53:51

       Mm

    7. SBSteven Bartlett53:52

       ... where you become successful at a thing, and you- and now you have something to lose, so people go into a state of loss aversion-

    8. SPSpeaker53:57

       Totally

    9. SBSteven Bartlett53:57

       ... where they start to protect what they have.

    10. SPSpeaker53:59

        Totally.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett53:59

        And this narrows your life in a way where you stop taking challenges, stop taking risks, stop doing new things. And the other thing, generally, about knowing you're gonna die and really, like, reminding yourself of that, is it liberates you from getting caught up and worrying about things that, in the grand scheme of, like, cosmic reality-

    12. SPSpeaker54:13

        Don't really matter

    13. SBSteven Bartlett54:13

        ... are, like, totally inconsequential.

    14. SPSpeaker54:15

        Yeah.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett54:16

        I was, I was hearing someone say the other day, like: "Do you know the, the name of your great-grandfather? Do you know, do you know his first name?"

    16. SPSpeaker54:22

        Not really.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett54:23

        "And do you know the, like, the life they lived and what they were worried about and how they were embarrassed and their shame?"

    18. SPSpeaker54:28

        Yeah, exactly. No, you don't know any of that.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett54:29

        And the point is, like, if you don't even know your own family's- [chuckles]

    20. SPSpeaker54:32

        Yeah. Yeah

    21. SBSteven Bartlett54:33

        ... bullshit anymore-

    22. SPSpeaker54:33

        Like, nobody else cares, yeah.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett54:34

        But even, like, extremely famous people, e- a couple of weeks after they trend on Twitter, and then-... a week later, everyone just, like, gets on with their life again.

    24. SPSpeaker54:40

        Totally. Well, I'm already experiencing that with, with this stuff. You know, like, the building was, like, insane for a moment, but now it's the Olympics, and there's a lot going on in the news cycle, and it's like the world's moved on.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett54:49

        Mm.

    26. SPSpeaker54:49

        And I'm like, "Great, I'll go back to just, like, being at home with my family and climbing as much as I can."

    27. SBSteven Bartlett54:53

        Being at home with your family, you said earlier that when you were in that van for ten years, you wanted a girlfriend.

    28. SPSpeaker54:58

        Yeah.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett54:58

        Now, I'm not being funny, but people that fit your profile and, uh, to some degree, people that fit my profile, struggle in intimate relationships for a variety of reasons, and I think I actually saw this in the documentary when I watched Free Solo.

    30. SPSpeaker55:11

        Mm.
14. 1:10:20 – 1:18:46

    Can You Rewire Your Brain To Eliminate Fear?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:20

       struggling or less, are more sedentary or struggling with their weight-

    2. SPSpeaker1:10:23

       Mm

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:23

       ... they often have smaller ones. Uh, anyone that avoids discomfort has a smaller one. So, um, in your-- in the context of the way you've lived your life, you've continued to do things that are hard, that... I mean, you can love climbing, but you don't necessarily love-

    4. SPSpeaker1:10:36

       Yeah, but just doing, like, one more set every time is like-

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:39

       Yeah

    6. SPSpeaker1:10:39

       ... that's, that's always a challenge.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:41

       Yeah.

    8. SPSpeaker1:10:41

       You're always like, "My whole body hurts, but I'll just do a little more," you know? [chuckles]

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:44

       Yeah, and I think the-

    10. SPSpeaker1:10:45

        Like-

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:45

        ... the thing, I guess, here is, like, about neuroplasticity, which is gonna be a ton of people listening right now that are so far away from their Taipei-

    12. SPSpeaker1:10:52

        Mm

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:52

        ... from their Taipei 101. They're so far away from that. They're in a job they just don't like. They're maybe the finance brother, you know, you talked about a second ago, and their, their life is absent of even adventure. And they probably look at you and go, "Well, you know, he just has something I don't have."

    14. SPSpeaker1:11:05

        I know, but I just don't, you know? I mean, I've structured my life in a different way, and I've made many different choices and, and all that, but that's the thing, is I don't really think I have anything different. I mean, I, I actually hate all the, like, brain stuff because people always, like, use that to, to put me in this box of like: "Well, you're different." And I'm like: "Well, not really. Like, I'm a middle-class suburban kid. Both my parents... Like, nobody in my family is athletic. Like, nobody is good at sports at all," you know? [chuckles] It's like, like, basically, if you were to, like, look at the... You know, like, if I was a video game character, and you were to look at all my little bars, you'd be like: "That guy's not gonna be an athlete. Like, he's not good at this," you know? It's like my parents are professors, and we fricking read books. Like, I'm not-- There's no aptitude for anything, really. [chuckles]

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:47

        Mm.

    16. SPSpeaker1:11:47

        And I was, like, bad at sports as a kid. I'm not good with balls. Like, you know, there's no reason, but, I mean, really, I just have loved climbing enough that I've been willing to put in a tremendous amount of time and effort and eventually get good at it. And I'm kind of like, to hear people say, like, "Oh, your brain's different," you're kind of like: "Well, everybody's brain is a little bit different in some ways." It doesn't mean that you can't devote yourself to something that you care about.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:07

        But with this in mind and with all the neuroscientists that I've interviewed, your brain is different in part because you've taken-- you've done different things.

    18. SPSpeaker1:12:14

        Yeah.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:14

        And neuroplasticity says you can change your brain right the way up throughout your, your entire life. One of my friends, um, Tom Bilyeu, is a good example of that. He's a big podcaster. You might know Tom Bilyeu.

    20. SPSpeaker1:12:23

        I don't think so.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:24

        Um, but he, you know, he was... I can't remember the rough age, but I'm gonna say he was thirty years old. He was so, in his words, lazy, that he would s- lay in bed all day. When his girlfriend came home, he said he would jump up out of bed just so she didn't believe that he was in bed all day, and he didn't want to be embarrassed. And when he asked his, at the time, girlfriend, if, if he could, um, ask her dad if he could marry her, dad said no. He was-- he desperately was, like, lazy and down and out. Over the next ten years, he makes decisions to take on more difficult challenges.... builds a billion-dollar company, sells it. If you meet this guy today, you'd think, like, athlete, genius, super smart, motivated.

    22. SPSpeaker1:13:00

        Mm-hmm.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:00

        You'd beg him for advice on discipline and motivation. Like, he's that kind of guy.

    24. SPSpeaker1:13:04

        But yeah, so what'd he do?

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:05

        He read a book about neuroplasticity, and he realized that he wasn't stuck.

    26. SPSpeaker1:13:09

        Right.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:09

        He, he learned about neuroplasticity, which means that at any age in your life, the decisions you make change your brain.

    28. SPSpeaker1:13:14

        Mm-hmm.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:14

        And that's why I love this discovery of this anterior insular cortex, 'cause it means that, like, maybe, in part, the reason why I'm not taking on my Taipei 101 is because I haven't taken on my Taipei 101.

    30. SPSpeaker1:13:27

        Yeah, you have- well, you haven't taken on, uh, your Taipei 1. [chuckles] You know, your Taipei, uh, your Taipei 12 or whatever. You know, like, just the little pieces at the bottom. 'Cause that's the thing is, like... And, and actually, this is why when you asked about, like, any big goals, I'm like, I, I, sometimes I think the big goals are slightly limiting because, like, if you're your friend who's laying in bed, Taipei 101 is not the appropriate goal. You know what I mean? Like, you need, you need a Taipei 4. Like, [chuckles] you need to just get out and, like, do a little thing. You need to achieve some success. You need to just see that you can do something, and you need to take on appropriately sized challenges. Because I think having a great white whale, you know, is, is great sometimes, but that's not always what you need, you know?
15. 1:18:46 – 1:19:53

    What Happens To Fear After Years Of Exposure?

    1. SPSpeaker1:18:46

       those sorts of things.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:47

       ... This company that I've just invested in is growing like crazy. I want to be the one to tell you about it because I think it's going to create such a huge productivity advantage for you. Wispr Flow is an app that you can get on your computer and on your phone, on all your devices, and it allows you to speak to your technology. So instead of me writing out an email, I click one button on my phone, and I can just speak the email into existence, and it uses AI to clean up what I was saying. And then when I'm done, I just hit this one button here, and the whole email is written for me, and it's saving me so much time in a day because Wispr learns how I write. So on WhatsApp, it knows how I am, a little bit more casual; on email, a little bit more professional. And also, there's this really interesting thing they've just done. I can create little phrases to automatically do the work for me. I can just say, "Jack's LinkedIn," and it copies Jack's LinkedIn profile for me because it knows who Jack is in my life. This is saving me a huge amount of time. This company is growing like absolute crazy, and this is why I invested in the business and why they're now a sponsor of this show, and Wispr Flow is frankly becoming the worst-kept secret in business, productivity, and entrepreneurship. Check it out now at Wispr Flow, spelt W-I-S-P-R F-L-O-W dot AI slash Steven. It will be a game changer for you. [paper rustling]

16. 1:19:53 – 1:23:53

    If He Had One Last Climb - What Would It Be?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:53

       If you knew that you only had one week left to live, and this was the week, and you could only do one last climb, you go back and recapture the record, go do El Cap again, I don't know, a different building. You have one week, and assume you're sufficiently prepared for whatever the climb would be. What would, what would you do?

    2. SPSpeaker1:20:09

       Well, so I'm allowed to do, like, cutting-edge, futuristic things?

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:13

       Yeah.

    4. SPSpeaker1:20:14

       Oh, well, well, then I'm like, I don't know. I mean, the Burj, like, it'd be insane. But, um, but no, uh, like, the, the Free Triple in Yosemite is, like, the three biggest walls in Yosemite. Uh-

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:23

       The Free Triple.

    6. SPSpeaker1:20:25

       The... So it's El Cap, Half Dome, and Mount Watkins. W- Mount Wa- Watkins is kind of like a Half Dome-sized wall that's further up valley. So it's the three biggest walls in Yosemite. So Tommy Caldwell and I have free climbed the Triple. The two of us did it together with ropes, but we, like, climbed the whole thing. And then I've soloed the Triple, so I've done all three with ropes by myself. It was, like, eighteen or nineteen hours or something of climbing. Um, but it's never been free soloed. Uh, I've free soloed Half Dome individually, and I've free soloed El Cap individually. No one's ever free soloed Watkins, but the idea of doing all three in a day would be like, I think, totally, like, next-generation achievement. There are certain things like that where I'm sort of like, if I was starting over, if I was, like, an eighteen-year-old who was, like, trying to make it as a professional climber nowadays and, and had a higher level of skill than I do now, and, you know, basically was, like, trying to do this again, there are things like that, that would be sort of like the obvious next-generation challenge.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:13

       Free solo all three in the same day?

    8. SPSpeaker1:21:15

       Yeah. Yeah, it'd probably take, uh... Well, it'd take a l- bit under twenty-four hours, probably.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:22

       What is your training regimen to-- these days? Is it-

    10. SPSpeaker1:21:25

        Just go rock climbing a lot. Today, I did a little workout in the hotel gym this morning.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:28

        Your hands are quite different. I was... They, they're quite big hands.

    12. SPSpeaker1:21:31

        Well, that's, I mean, you know, think of like a stonemason just, like, grinding away their whole life.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:35

        I see. You, you, you have-- I don't know if people can see that on camera, but you, it does look like you have very, um, wide fingers.

    14. SPSpeaker1:21:43

        Yeah, my fingers, uh, have taken a lot of abuse in their time.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:46

        Because I see you, like, putting them in, in between walls and stuff.

    16. SPSpeaker1:21:50

        Yeah, and then, like... Yeah, crack climbing. It's like you basically put your fingers into a crack, and then you torque them, and so, like, the side-to-side pulling, uh, does sort of make your connective tissue bigger.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:57

        And does that hurt? I, I-f-

    18. SPSpeaker1:21:59

        Yeah, it hurts. [chuckles]

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:00

        It-- I was wondering when you were going up El Cap-

    20. SPSpeaker1:22:01

        I mean, when you're doing it well with good technique, it, it's not that painful. It depends on the type of rock, but some rock is kinda sharp and kinda painful. Um, but yeah, this is-- this goes back to strengthening your, what's the part called in your brain?

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:11

        Anterior insular cortex. [chuckles]

    22. SPSpeaker1:22:12

        Yeah, exactly. That guy. I mean, that's the thing is that even when done well, climbing, like, it hurts your fingers and toes, and, you know, crack climbing, when you're, like, jamming your toes into a crack, and you're torquing them side to side, and you're, like, wedging your fingers in. I mean, when you're doing it well, it has a pleasant d- feel of safety to it because you can really, like, lock into cracks, and it feels comfortable, and you feel like you're swimming, and you're like, "This is beautiful." But when you really come down to the sensations, you're still crushing your bones into a crack [chuckles] like it still hurts.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:37

        When I look at this kind of photo-

    24. SPSpeaker1:22:38

        Mm.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:39

        -where you're-- it looks like you're hanging by one and a half hands-

    26. SPSpeaker1:22:44

        Yeah.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:45

        -and you're gonna fall to your death if you, if your grip isn't-

    28. SPSpeaker1:22:48

        Yeah

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:48

        ... sufficient. It makes me think you must have the world's greatest grip strength.

    30. SPSpeaker1:22:52

        Oh, I definitely don't.
17. 1:23:53 – 1:27:04

    The Hardest He’s Ever Pushed Himself And Why

    1. SPSpeaker1:23:53

       to.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:53

       When, when, when is the-- in all your career, when is the moment where you were most scared, where you thought maybe you had, uh, pushed it too far?

    3. SPSpeaker1:23:59

       Oh, it's actually, uh, I've had several moments, but they're actually mostly with ropes on. That's the thing is that because when you're free soloing, you generally keep it within a healthy margin, or you practice ahead of time. You, you know, basically, because you're gonna die, you make sure that you can do it. But when you have a rope on, you're way more willing to push into the unknown because you're kinda like: Surely, I'll get some protection eventually. I'll just ha- keep looking. I'll keep looking. And so, like, I've had-- I was on an expedition to Antarctica, actually, um, in 2017, and did a bunch of climbing that was very extreme, but, like, with a rope, but it was, you know, it was Antarctica. It's really freaking cold. Conditions are challenging. The rock is crumbling. Everything is scary, and you just keep hoping that it's gonna get better, and it just keeps getting worse instead, and eventually, you're sort of like... Because the thing is, having a rope on doesn't mean anything unless you get good protection, which means you have to be able to put gear into the rock, and if you can't find places to put gear into the rock, then you can go-- You know, the rope is two hundred feet long. If you go two hundred feet without getting good gear, then you're looking at taking a four hundred-foot fall before the rope catches you.... uh, which is almost certainly fatal. You know what I mean? If you fall that far, even though the rope will catch your corpse, [chuckles] you know, but you're still just gonna hit the wall after 400 feet, like, you're screwed. So anyway, my scariest experiences have all been in situations like that, for the most part.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:06

       Mm.

    5. SPSpeaker1:25:07

       This is why I'm saying climbing, you get scared a lot. In Argentina, I was like, that expedition, uh, we were climbing basically day on, day off. Each day, we would go climb one of these crazy spires, and we'd have these experiences where I'd be, like, so scared, and then the next day, we would just sit in the tent because it's Antarctica. It's, like, really cold. You're in the cook tent, and I would basically just spoon Nutella all day, totally shell-shocked, [chuckles] like, totally, like, just completely traumatized. And then the ne- and then you'd be, like, rested enough, and you'd go out the next day and do it again, and we just did, like, day on, day off of, like, full trauma fear for the whole trip. And then we climbed everything in the range. It was amazing. It was an incredible trip.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:41

       So you do get scared?

    7. SPSpeaker1:25:42

       Yeah, I was so scared the whole time. [chuckles]

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:44

       Do- are there any techniques that have proven to be effective for you to deal with that fear? Like, people talk about breathwork and-

    9. SPSpeaker1:25:49

       Yeah, take some deep breaths, try to compose yourself. I mean, I try to stay rational, you know, like, "Am I in danger?" 'Cause sometimes, like, in this case, in Antarctica, I am actually in danger. Like, if I fall, I could die. Um, but oftentimes, you feel... You get those feelings of fear, and you're not actually in danger. You're just- it's your mind running away from you. And so sometimes you can sort of rationally rein it in a little bit, where you're like: No, I am safe. The protection will hold me. The rope is... You know, my gear is good, and then you just take a deep breath, and you just carry on.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:14

        And do you visualize falling ever?

    11. SPSpeaker1:26:16

        Oh, yeah, I mean, of course. Yeah, I mean, you have to understand what the consequences will be. Because, I mean, that type of visualization is also how you can know when you're safe. Because, like, if you have a rope in gear and you're trying to visualize, like: If I fall, am I gonna hit the ground, or is the gear gonna catch me before I hit the ground? I mean, there are often situations like that where you're like: If I fall, am I gonna hit that ledge and break both my legs, or am I gonna clear the ledge and fall into free space, in which case it's totally safe? And so y- it helps to be able to have a clear-eyed visualization of... You know, 'cause most people visualize the worst case. Like, "If I fall, I'm gonna die," and you're like, well, oftentimes, if you-- I'm talking about with a rope, if you fall, you're gonna be fine, but it's important to know the difference.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:53

        Mm. So you don't avoid the confrontation with the negative outcomes?

    13. SPSpeaker1:26:59

        No, because you're trying to avoid the negative out- Like, you have to think about it, because how else do you mitigate that kind of stuff?

18. 1:27:04 – 1:32:21

    Are Other People Taking Bigger Risks Than Him?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:27:04

       Mm-hmm. But you can't let that stop you taking actions when the risk profile is okay.

    2. SPSpeaker1:27:08

       Yeah, exactly. I mean, this is like a whole rant about risk-taking and everything.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:27:12

       Please.

    4. SPSpeaker1:27:12

       But, like, I mean, that's the thing, is you want to be taking the risks that you want to take, and it drives me crazy that nobody else thinks about risk in this way. Because think of all the people that, like, go out partying every weekend, and they get, like, kind of buzzed, and they drive home and whatever, and it's like they're taking all kinds of risk that they're not actually choosing to take. You know what I mean? Like, they're just choosing to go out and party and have a good time, but then they're, like, driving a little buzzed, and they're like: "No, it's fine." But you're like: No, obviously, you're taking a risk. Or, like, you're putting yourself into situations where you're, like, in a vulnerable situation because you're incapacitated, because you're drunk or whatever. And so, you know, you're putting yourself at a higher risk for crime, things like that. And so you're taking risks. You just haven't chosen to take those risks. I'm kind of like, the thing with climbing is that I'm choosing to take the risks, and I'm pretty clear-eyed about the risk that I'm taking. Like, I mean, I'm not gonna say it's perfect, but for the most part, I think I have a pretty good idea of which aspects are dangerous, like, when the consequences are high, what will happen if I do fall. You know, it's like you try to think it all out as much as you can. I'm kind of like, how many people in normal life actually think through all the risks that they're taking? And even totally sedentary people who are like: "Well, I don't take risks. I stay home, and I play video games." You're like: No, you're at a much higher risk of heart disease. Like, you're gonna die from other things. You know, it's like... And you're still gonna freaking die either way. That's... Okay, I'm done ranting. I'm sorry.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:24

       No, no, but it's, it's really important, 'cause y- I think we are all taking risks-

    6. SPSpeaker1:28:27

       Mm

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:27

       ... but some of us aren't intentional about the risks we're taking, essentially.

    8. SPSpeaker1:28:31

       That's exactly it. Like, even if you take no risks, you're gonna die. You're taking a different set of risks. And so people look at my life, and they're like: "Well, you're crazy. You're such a risk-taker." And I'm kind of like: Well, at least I'm taking the risks that I'm choosing, and I'm choosing them very intentionally, and I'm pretty careful about them, and I mitigate them as much as I can. I'm kind of like: Well, can you say the same for the risk that you're taking? Or... You know, I'm sort of like the average person, I think, doesn't think about risk as much as they should.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:54

       And is there anything that you would give them as a framework to help them be more intentional about those risks? Is there... Is it just to-

    10. SPSpeaker1:28:59

        Well, it's like, you're gonna freaking die either way, so choose the things that you care about and then do them well.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:29:05

        And do them well. Prepare-

    12. SPSpeaker1:29:07

        Yeah, execute. Like, have a plan. You know, but don't just, like, take risk willy-nilly. Like, don't just get drunk and go out and do a thing, you know, 'cause, like, that's stupid. Like, that's not the risk you should be taking. You know, like, don't put all your money on black and just, like, hope. You know what I mean? [chuckles] Like, basically, don't just, like, roll the dice. Like, don't let fate just, like, roll the, roll the dice with your life. Like, make choices.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:29:27

        And free soloing is... You know, there's a bigger existential risk with no margin for error, but, um, free-

    14. SPSpeaker1:29:33

        But it's very intentional.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:29:35

        Very intentional. Drinking as a, as a risk is like a volume knob. The more you do it-

    16. SPSpeaker1:29:39

        Yeah

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:29:39

        ... the more the risk increases, and the other one is kind of like an on/off switch, which you can-

    18. SPSpeaker1:29:44

        Exactly

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:29:44

        ... you know, do it today and then... Mm. Yeah. So grip strength.

    20. SPSpeaker1:29:48

        I wouldn't be even a little bit surprised if you can pull that more than I can, actually. But look, I mean, we'll both try.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:29:53

        Okay, this is a grip strength meter.

    22. SPSpeaker1:29:55

        Um, okay, so let's see. We're at zero. Um, kilograms will be extra small, then. [chuckles] Uh, I mean, the thing with these, like... Okay, actually, let me just preface this with, like, I, I've had tons of people be like: "Well, surely you're gonna break the machine." I'm like: No, because for climbing, you, you just have the strength that you need to do the things that you're trying to do.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:08

        And how much do you weigh?

    24. SPSpeaker1:30:09

        Um, right now, like 165.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:12

        165.

    26. SPSpeaker1:30:12

        Which is actually basically the heaviest I've ever been.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:14

        165-

    28. SPSpeaker1:30:14

        Maybe, maybe 163 if I'm lucky right now.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:17

        So 165 pounds in KG is equivalocal to 75 kilograms, roughly.

    30. SPSpeaker1:30:22

        Yeah.
19. 1:32:21 – 1:37:16

    What He Still Wants To Achieve And What Comes Next

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:32:21

       who they're leaving it for.

    2. SPSpeaker1:32:22

       Hmm.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:32:23

       And the question left for you is... Ooh! What do you want to achieve in your life outside of your mainline job that you haven't yet achieved?

    4. SPSpeaker1:32:34

       I don't know. I mean, that seems-- there are basically two other avenues that I care about in my life. Uh, you know, my family, I wanna be a good dad. I wanna make sure my kids grow up to be healthy, well-adjusted people that, you know, like, live their best lives. And then I have a foundation that supports community solar projects around the world, and I'd love to see that thrive. I mean, basically, I mean, you know, we give as much as we can to, to solar projects around the world, and I'd love to see that do more.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:32:57

       On that point of your foundation, what is, what is the sort of the thesis there? You want to-- for solar projects.

    6. SPSpeaker1:33:03

       Yeah. Yeah, solar. It's basically energy access-

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:33:04

       Solar

    8. SPSpeaker1:33:04

       ... around the world.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:33:05

       Oh, okay.

    10. SPSpeaker1:33:06

        Yeah, I think now we've given, I don't know, over 13 million to something like over 100 partners around the world. Basically, like small-scale community solar projects, so people getting access to energy for the first time. Um, basically using solar for anything ranging from light to, you know, say, food refrigeration, to pumping water, I mean, whatever, whatever people need energy for, which is basically everything.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:33:27

        Thirteen mil-- More than 13 million across 130 projects in 30 countries, impacting 650,000 people and creating 1,200-plus jobs, protected 50 million acres of biodiverse forest as well.

    12. SPSpeaker1:33:42

        Yeah, some of those things are sort of like the, the secondary and tertiary benefits, whereas, like, when you empower certain kinds of communities, then they're better able to take care of their lands and things like that. Some of that has to do with indigenous sovereignty and things like in the Ecuadorian Amazon and, and places where it's like when the local people have power, suddenly they can protect their land from illegal logging, um, illegal mining, things like that. And so then you wind up having this knockoff, like, environmental benefit that's, like, also great, in addition to the human a- aspect, where you're like, "Well, these people are living better lives, and it helps save the planet."

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:34:11

        And you're giving away roughly a third of your wealth to cover the majority of the foundation's overheads, so-

    14. SPSpeaker1:34:17

        Yeah, I, I've been giving roughly a third of my, of what I make every year, uh, since 2012, and, uh, that's basically just sort of coincidentally tracked with the overhead for the foundation. So it just means that anything that people contribute goes straight to projects, 'cause I basically cover all the staffing and everything.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:34:32

        How does, how does one contribute to that?

    16. SPSpeaker1:34:34

        Uh, honnoldfoundation.org is the easiest way. You can support directly, and you can see all the projects that we're working with.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:34:39

        And donors can go there if they want to contribute to this. They can go to the website and contribute.

    18. SPSpeaker1:34:42

        Yep.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:34:43

        Okay, well, I'll link the website below, and if anyone is interested in continuing to support the great work you're doing there, um, I'd highly recommend they go and make a donation. It's, uh, it's also just a way, I think, to give back to you as a person for the inspiration you've given so many of us.

    20. SPSpeaker1:34:56

        Oh, well, I appreciate that.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:34:57

        Um, you know.

    22. SPSpeaker1:34:58

        Yeah. I mean, to me, the foundation has always been my attempt at doing something useful, 'cause, like, I love rock climbing. I think it's so fun, but in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter [chuckles] in the world, and I feel like the work that we're doing through the Honnold Foundation at least materially improves the well-being of, of other humans. [chuckles] You know, like, it actually has a real impact both for the environment and for people.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:35:16

        Well, I, I don't know, Alex. I, I think watching you climb Taipei and watching the millions of people all around the world climb Taipei was an expansive moment for all of us because it all... It, it holds a mirror up to us in a really inspiring way and goes, "What obstacles can you overcome in your life?" And-

    24. SPSpeaker1:35:33

        Mm-hmm

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:35:33

        ... um, the mi- many, many millions of people now have that visual, and sometimes it is an absurd visual that does that and is most memorable, like, i- it etched into their brains. And that means that they, in their own life, are looking for their own Taipei ones or Taipei sevens-

    26. SPSpeaker1:35:48

        Mm-hmm

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:35:48

        ... or Taipei 101s. And if you play that forward as like a ripple in the ocean of how people are gonna strive and maybe live more intentionally, maybe, maybe it does really, really matter. Maybe the whole conversation, which was more like my entire Twitter feed for days and days and days of people saying, "This is a miraculous human achievement," it- there's like, that's the first half of a sentence. The other half of that sentence, which we never really hear, is like, "So now what can I do?"

    28. SPSpeaker1:36:11

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:36:13

        And that is a profound thing.

    30. SPSpeaker1:36:14

        Well, that's definitely the best frame. Like, that's the framing that I hope for, and that's, you know... But I think that's, like, the best-case scenario for my climbing, and, like, I, I hope that that's how people take it. But I will say that the work through the Honnold Foundation at least has a direct material impact immediately. [chuckles] You're kinda like-

Episode duration: 1:37:16