Dorian Yates on Huberman Lab: Why the pump misleads lifters

1. 0:00 – 3:17

   Dorian Yates

   1. DYDorian Yates0:00

      ...When people come to train with me, I said, "Our objective is to get an exercise and go to real muscular failure." You gotta give it more than it's used to. The body does not wanna change. It wants to keep status quo, so you gotta give it a bloody good reason, as we would say in England, to change, right? So you gotta put more stress on the body than it's used to, and then you need to recover from that. That's the idea, to do enough to stimulate, but not more than that, because this is an overload that you've gotta recover from. And the number one thing that I hear from people is, "I don't really have time for that. I have a business. I have a family." I said, "Uh, if you could give me 45 minutes twice a week, that's all you need to do." And it's not theory, because I've done it. You change your life, literally, with that and a good diet. So the whole time thing excuse is, it's not relevant. I'm not listening. You don't need a lot of time. [upbeat music]

   2. AHAndrew Huberman0:50

      Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dorian Yates. Dorian Yates is a legendary six-time Mr. Olympia winner, who is also considered one of the greatest pioneers of training methods for bodybuilding, health, and fitness. He is known for using and recommending low-volume, high-intensity workouts, meaning very few sets done with maximal focus, perfect form, and directed muscle engagement, taken to muscular failure and beyond. Today, Dorian teaches us how the typical person, who is not interested in competitive bodybuilding, should train for health and fitness and overall best results. We cover muscle building, fat loss, mobility, what forms of cardio are best, when to do them, and much more. The advice Dorian provides today is immensely valuable and applicable to everyone, men, women, young, and old. He explains how, for most people, the best muscle building and strength results will be achieved by training no more than three, and in some cases, only two days per week. Dorian also shares valuable insights on how to mentally frame and navigate your life and goals, how to use your hardships as fuel, he has a lot to say about that based on his own experience, but also how to recognize and lean into your natural strengths, how to be practical in choosing what dreams you chase, and how to know when to pivot from one endeavor to another. We also discuss cannabis. In fact, even though I, of course, knew who he was, Dorian and I first connected because of an episode that I did about cannabis, both the potential benefits of cannabis, as well as the very serious risks that may exist for certain people. Dorian's experience and read of the data on cannabis contrasted with mine, and that led us to an ongoing discussion that we continue today on the podcast, and that has me now reading into some newer studies, and I promise that I'll update everyone on my take of those studies once I get through them. Oh, yes, and Dorian also took me through a Yates-style high-intensity workout at Gold's Gym Venice. We trained back, we filmed it, and it's posted to our Clips channel, so you can check that out. It's linked in the show note caption. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dorian Yates.

2. 3:17 – 9:15

   High-Intensity Training, Bodybuilding, Blood & Guts

   1. AHAndrew Huberman3:17

      The Dorian Yates. [chuckles]

   2. DYDorian Yates3:18

      [chuckles]

   3. AHAndrew Huberman3:18

      Welcome.

   4. DYDorian Yates3:19

      Apparently, yeah.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman3:20

      Yeah, uh, certainly. Uh, big fan for many years. Thanks to you and thanks to Mike Mentzer and a few, uh, at the time, real iconoclasts. Um, I trained differently than everyone around me told me to, and while I never became a, a competitive athlete, uh, at n- anywhere near the level that, that you did, certainly, um, it got me the results I wanted so much faster. I feel super healthy and great at 50, and I really wanna talk about this high-intensity, low-ish volume training that really, um, can be credited to you. Um, because for those that don't know, uh, the community that you come from, um, there have been people who have been b- big proponents of long sessions, many hours in the gym. At the opposite extreme, there's been people, such as Mike Mentzer, who have been proponents of very brief, very high intensity, even one set to failure, and that's it. And you brought things into some sense of moderation.

   6. DYDorian Yates4:21

      It was almost like a hybrid-

   7. AHAndrew Huberman4:23

      Yeah

   8. DYDorian Yates4:23

      ... I guess.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman4:23

      Yeah, exactly.

   10. DYDorian Yates4:24

       Between the purest-

   11. AHAndrew Huberman4:25

       Mm-hmm

   12. DYDorian Yates4:26

       ... HIT, which, uh, I mean, I, I didn't come up with the idea. The guy that really initiated the whole thing was Arthur Jones, who was the guy that made the Nautilus machines, and then he passed it on, right? And Mike Mentzer made it more popular, 'cause Mike Mentzer was American champion, Mr. Universe, and he was in the magazines. And, um, I read Arthur Jones's books, and I think I'm a logical thinker, so it made sense to me.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman4:55

       Mm-hmm.

   14. DYDorian Yates4:56

       Uh, but if it made sense to me, and it didn't work out practically, who cares, you know? So, like yourself, I was kinda training like that, and everyone was telling me, "This is not the way to do it. You need to train more often, uh, do more sets," and so on. So I tried it, and, uh, the whole thing with my career, so- it's a bit like a science experiment, in a way, that I documented everything. So I've got every workout. The first time I stepped in the gym and said, seriously, "Okay, I'm gonna train, and, uh, I wanna be a competitive bodybuilder, and this is how I'm gonna change my life, and maybe I'm gonna get a gym or something like that," that was about it at the time. But I said, "Okay," so I'm tracking everything. My progress is going really well. I'm training, like, three times a week for maybe 45 minutes, an hour, but I'm working as well. I'm doing construction, I'm doing some heavy jobs, so this is taking energy. Going well, going well. Okay, then let me try it. Let me jack it up. I'm gonna train four times a week or do a little bit more. What happened? Nothing. [chuckles] That's what happened. Everything stopped-... for three or four weeks, I cut it back, started growing again. So I didn't really need to learn that lesson too many times. Um, [tsking] and I got to be British champion, I got to be pro, turn pro. And, uh, I read everything that Mike Mentzer wrote in the magazines and everything like that, and got to meet him when I came out here. And we discussed training, and so, "Okay, what are you doing?" "You know, I'm warming up, whatever it takes, couple of sets. I'm doing a set to failure, and then I'm resting two or three minutes, dropping it down 10% maybe, and going to failure again. So I'm hitting that nail in twice just to make sure it's, it's in there." So Mike said, "Why don't you try cutting back to one set to failure?" So I started that around '91, '92, and I feel like I got another, you know, another level of growth from that. Um, [tsking] so people say, "Oh, Dorian doesn't do HIIT." I don't know what category we wanna put it in, but it's probably somewhere between conventional bodybuilding and the extreme of HIIT that Mike Mentzer was doing, and, uh, Arthur Jones, which would be perfect for the average person. I mean, Arthur Jones was doing, like, a whole body workout couple of times a week. That was his initial recommendation, and I agree, for the average person, that's great, 'cause you wanna build a certain level of muscle mass for your health. But I was a competitive bodybuilder, so you've gotta be concerned with a little bit, like, you know, side delts, rear delts. Average person could do one shoulder exercise, it would be enough. So you need to do a little bit more as a competitive bodybuilder. Um, so c- somebody came up with the moniker, uh, Blood and Guts. They saw my training, and said, "That looks like blood and guts," so that's what we called it. Um, so it's high-intensity training, a lot less than the other guys were doing probably, but maybe the HIIT purists will say, "Ah, it's not." But it is what it is, and it's all... I've got it, every workout written down, so people can see what I did. And call it what you will, but, you know, it was briefer than everyone else I was competing against. And it had an effect, although not everyone followed what I was doing. But prior to myself being successful, it was, like, six times a week. Some people were doing twice a day. Not very often, to be honest. This is a lot in the magazines. Arnold promoted that a lot, right? But if you look at Arnold, he was probably a full size when he was 21, 22. He was huge. How did he get there? He was bench pressing 500, he was doing deadlifts, he was doing squats, whatever. He built the foundation, and I believe competitive bodybuilders back then, they kinda used the weights as a calorie burner as well. So they've got the muscle mass, then they're doing more volume, and more sets, and more reps, and obviously this is helping to maintain the muscle, while at the same time burning a lot of calories. So I said, "Wouldn't it be better to do the weight training just to build muscle and maintain muscle, and do some cardio exercise to burn extra calories, so then you'll be able to recover properly?" So that was my approach. So it probably falls somewhere in between the two camps-

   15. AHAndrew Huberman9:14

       Mm-hmm

   16. DYDorian Yates9:14

       ... to be honest.

3. 9:15 – 12:04

   Muscular Failure, Stimulate & Recover; Anabolics

   1. AHAndrew Huberman9:15

      [tsking] Yeah, I remember trying the one set to failure, w- a couple warm-ups, one set to failure.

   2. DYDorian Yates9:20

      Yeah.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman9:20

      You pre-exhaust, you know, leg extensions into leg press. And, um, it occurred to me after about a year or two, that I needed to do a little bit more. I mention that because I think, um, I'm like most people in the sense that, and let me frame this right, um, I could get certain movements to really thrash the muscle that I needed to with one or two sets, but if there isn't really good mind-muscle connection and fiber recruitment, you might need a bit more.

   4. DYDorian Yates9:51

      It's possible, yeah.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman9:52

      Yeah, I mean-

   6. DYDorian Yates9:52

      I mean, it's not, none of this is written in stone.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman9:54

      Mm-hmm.

   8. DYDorian Yates9:54

      When people come to train with me, I said, "Our objective is to get an exercise and go to real muscular failure. We'll need to get there safely, so we'll do a couple of sets to warm up. But if somehow you don't feel, or I don't feel, you nailed it in that set, let's do another one."

   9. AHAndrew Huberman10:10

      Mm-hmm.

   10. DYDorian Yates10:10

       You know, there's, uh, there's no law we c- can't do a little bit more. So you are correct in saying that somebody that's very experienced, they got that mind-muscle connection, where you can just link in and you can fully destroy it. So it depends on the person, but the idea is to not do more than is necessary.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman10:28

       Mm-hmm.

   12. DYDorian Yates10:28

       Uh, because then you're gonna find it harder to recover. And the process is stimulate, right? So you've gotta train, you've gotta overload, and during this process, you're not growing, you're creating damage, stress to the muscle, that then has to recover and then overcompensate. So two things need to be in place. Need to be sufficient intensity or overload, or there'll be no reaction, and then you need to recover from that. And let's just put it straight out there, man, [chuckles] you know, there's a big difference between somebody using anabolic steroids than somebody that's not. So somebody that's using can recover from that process more quickly than someone that isn't. So I feel I should always say this, because when you're looking at a champion bodybuilder and how he trains, and you're a young guy trying to build up, that's probably not appropriate for you right now. That guy has already got the size and is refining for a competition or something. So, uh, that's the idea, to do enough to stimulate, but not more than that, because this is an overload that you've gotta recover from. So you've gotta recover before you grow as well. So you don't wanna go back to the gym before that whole process is, uh, has taken place. So I, I use some simple analogies sometimes when people are training with me, like, "We're going in now, we're knocking a wall down, right? We're rehabbing your house, we're knocking a wall down, and the guys need to come now with the bricks. So they need materials-

   13. AHAndrew Huberman11:52

       Mm

   14. DYDorian Yates11:52

       ... and they need to do it, but they're halfway through building that wall, and you come and knock it down again. We're not getting anywhere, you know?" So that's the process-

   15. AHAndrew Huberman12:00

       Mm-hmm

   16. DYDorian Yates12:01

       ... that you kinda have to understand.

4. 12:04 – 14:33

   Sponsors: David & Joovv

   1. AHAndrew Huberman12:04

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5. 14:33 – 17:32

   Muscle Pump, Stimulus; Recovery Weeks

   1. AHAndrew Huberman14:33

      One of the, um, [lips smack] really kind of unfortunate things about resistance training is that it fills the muscle with blood temporarily-

   2. DYDorian Yates14:42

      Yeah

   3. AHAndrew Huberman14:43

      ... in part because of some quotes that came from Arnold in Pumping Iron. [chuckles] The, the so-called pump is c- it's an illusion, right? It's transient, and while it can be helpful in letting you know that you targeted a given muscle-

   4. DYDorian Yates14:55

      Yeah

   5. AHAndrew Huberman14:55

      ... correctly, I think people get addicted to that feeling, but they're not realizing that the damage to the muscle tissue that then is allowed to recover is what makes the muscle actually larger-

   6. DYDorian Yates15:05

      Absolutely

   7. AHAndrew Huberman15:05

      ... when you're outside of the gym. [chuckles]

   8. DYDorian Yates15:08

      A pump is just a temporary extra blood flow to the area. That feels good. You're pumped up, you feel tight, but you could get a lightweight and get a great pump. It's not gonna stimulate any growth, so don't be fooled by the pump. It's nice, and it's part of the process, but you've gotta overload the muscle. You've gotta give it, uh, more than it's used to.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman15:28

      Mm.

   10. DYDorian Yates15:28

       The body does not wanna change. It wants to keep status quo, so you've gotta give it a bloody good reason, as we would say in England, to change, right? So you've gotta put more stress on the body than it's used to, otherwise you won't adapt. So even if it's like, you know, half a pound more or one rep more, it's gotta be something more that the body says, "Hey, uh, th- this stress, I can't handle it. I need to reinforce myself and adapt to this stress, so next time it won't be so stressful." That's basically the, the process. So... And it can't be linear forever, right? Maybe in your first year of training, or first 18 months, you're just going... Like I put 20, 25 pounds on in the first 18 months that I was training, and, uh, and natural as well. So you, you know, it becomes a chem- case of diminishing returns, though.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman16:15

       Mm-hmm.

   12. DYDorian Yates16:16

       And at some point, you can't just keep going up like this. So I tell people, "Train real hard for, like, five or six weeks, and then come down for two weeks, maybe submaximal."

   13. AHAndrew Huberman16:28

       Yeah. So you'll sort of sawtooth it like that, hard for five-

   14. DYDorian Yates16:30

       Yeah

   15. AHAndrew Huberman16:30

       ... six weeks, then back off, and during that two weeks, are you telling people to stay out of the gym entirely?

   16. DYDorian Yates16:35

       No.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman16:35

       Yeah.

   18. DYDorian Yates16:35

       I'm telling them you can go in and do some lightweight, like-

   19. AHAndrew Huberman16:38

       Okay

   20. DYDorian Yates16:38

       ... but nowhere near failure, blood flow, keep the maintenance. If you wanna take a week off, I think it's good a couple of times a year.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman16:44

       Mm-hmm.

   22. DYDorian Yates16:45

       A lot of guys... When I had a gym, you know, the guys, "I'm stuck on this and that." I said, "Okay, take a week off."

   23. AHAndrew Huberman16:50

       Mm-hmm.

   24. DYDorian Yates16:51

       "Wow, no, what do you mean?" I said, "Man, just take a week off, yeah. Come back in a week and tell me how you feel." "Well, I came back and I was stronger." I was like, "Yeah, no shit, man." [chuckles]

   25. AHAndrew Huberman17:00

       So-

   26. DYDorian Yates17:01

       Because you've rested-

   27. AHAndrew Huberman17:02

       Yeah

   28. DYDorian Yates17:02

       ... you let your body rest and rebuild.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman17:03

       So-

   30. DYDorian Yates17:04

       So let me listen to you.
6. 17:32 – 22:13

   Beginners & Learning Correct Mechanics; Diabetes

   1. AHAndrew Huberman17:32

      Um, if we could get a little granular about training and recovery, I think it'd be helpful for people. I realize that you laid out the top contour, uh, really nicely. So, for a person who's natural, not taking hormone replacement therapy-

   2. DYDorian Yates17:46

      Yeah

   3. AHAndrew Huberman17:46

      ... or anabolics, um, you think two, maybe three whole-body sessions to start out, to learn the movements, um, is that doing one or two sets to failure? What does that look like for the, for the raw beginner?

   4. DYDorian Yates17:57

      A raw beginner, first of all, you need to learn how to do the movements correctly before let's thinking about going to failure. So it'll be a certain period of time learning to do the exercise correctly. Uh-... put in some kind of idea in their head of what's going on.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman18:14

      Mm-hmm.

   6. DYDorian Yates18:15

      Uh, you know, w- what do the pecs do? Bring your arms down and across the body. What do your lats do? They bring your upper arm down and back. So you'd be amazed, like, even if you ask a pro bodybuilder, some of them don't know, like, why they're doing what they're doing. What's the mechanics involved? And I get them to do light sets, very perfect. "Do you feel that? Do you feel how it contracts when your lats, and you squeeze, and you contract the..." "Yeah, I feel it, feel it." "Okay, now you've got it, but you've gotta try to maintain that-

   7. AHAndrew Huberman18:44

      Mm

   8. DYDorian Yates18:45

      ... when it gets really hard." Because we're going against the natural mechanics of the body here, right? Because we're, as I say we're doing chest, yeah? We're trying to isolate the pecs. There's some delts involved and, uh, and triceps, and work that, or we're working legs, we're working back. The body normally doesn't work like that. It works as a unit, right? If you throw something, you don't do that from your tricep, right? It'll be from your foot through the hips, through the shoulder, whole-body thing. So when the exercise gets really hard, your brain is gonna try to recruit or change the exercise to make it easier. So I gotta get people to override that instinct.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman19:23

      Mm.

   10. DYDorian Yates19:23

       Just stick with the form until we get to the point where you can't do any more, and understand... You know? That's why I get them to do light stuff at first, to really feel it, understand how I explain what's going on. Couple of weeks after that, we can start pushing to failure. Actually, I had a guy recently that we had a business meeting, and he told me he was diabetic, and he had liver problems, and he was overweight, and this and that. I gave him a challenge. I said, "You train with me for a month, I'll fix all that shit, yeah?" "Oh, but my doctor this and that." I said, "Listen, you train with me three times a week for about 45 minutes." After one month... Obviously, I changed his diet as well, basically for a short period of time, very low carbs. Uh, after one month, he was not in the diabetic zone. He was out of the pre-diabetic zone. He was in the normal range.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman20:15

       Great.

   12. DYDorian Yates20:16

       And his liver function that was three times the normal amount, liver enzymes, was back to normal. Uh, I told him, "Check it out, you've got a fatty liver." So, "Yeah, I had a fatty liver." I said, "I know." He said, "My doctor told me not to eat fat." I'm like: Man, do you know how long, uh, at least I don't know here, but in England, how long, uh, an MD, a doctor, spends studying nutrition?

   13. AHAndrew Huberman20:40

       Yeah, it's, it's trivial in most places.

   14. DYDorian Yates20:41

       One afternoon.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman20:42

       Mm.

   16. DYDorian Yates20:43

       One afternoon, two or three hours. I mean, you can learn nothing. So the doctor was telling him he's got a fatty liver, "So stop eating fat." I said, "That's absolutely the worst advice you could get-

   17. AHAndrew Huberman20:53

       It's the opposite

   18. DYDorian Yates20:53

       ... because the reason you've got fatty liver is 'cause uncontrolled blood sugar.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman20:56

       Mm.

   20. DYDorian Yates20:57

       So we get your blood sugar down."

   21. AHAndrew Huberman20:58

       Mm.

   22. DYDorian Yates20:59

       One month, his liver was normal, his blood sugar was normal. He lost, like, five, six kilos of body fat just in a month, and we're doing three times a week.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman21:10

       Whole body?

   24. DYDorian Yates21:11

       Uh, we split it up, actually-

   25. AHAndrew Huberman21:12

       Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

   26. DYDorian Yates21:12

       ... into three workouts, so he's hitting everything, uh, once a week.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman21:16

       When our, uh, mutual friend, you knew him better than I did, uh, the now deceased, unfortunately, uh, Mike Mentzer, told me to train each body part once per week-

   28. DYDorian Yates21:25

       Yeah

   29. AHAndrew Huberman21:25

       ... at first, I thought he was crazy. So legs once a week, calves once a week, maybe twice for some people, the calves, but, um, shoulders and arms, and chest and back on three-

   30. DYDorian Yates21:34

       Yeah
7. 22:13 – 28:53

   Research vs Real World, Tool: High-Intensity, Low-Volume Training, HIIT Sprints

   1. AHAndrew Huberman22:13

      So I know that your, your opinion on real-world results versus, um, uh, laboratory studies, but these days, let me just put something out there-

   2. DYDorian Yates22:20

      Yeah

   3. AHAndrew Huberman22:20

      ... I'd like to see your response. These days, uh, you know, people will talk a lot about, okay, the studies or muscle biopsies show you train a muscle, and stimulate, uh, hypertrophy, growth, and then muscle protein synthesis peaks, you know, 48 hours laters, which means that you can hit the muscle again, ideally three days later or two days later.

   4. DYDorian Yates22:41

      Okay.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman22:41

      I tried that, 'cause I thought, "Hey, listen, I'm a scientist. I'll try it," and I immediately started going backwards with my progress. This was a few years ago, and, um, went back to training each thing directly once per week. And where there's indirect, uh, stuff, uh, you know, arms getting hit once indirectly 'cause of a chest and back workout on a separate day, found I went right back to, to progress again. And so, you know, I'm a scientist, trained to do science, so w- how, what... How do you think about something where, in a laboratory, you can see something like protein synthesis peaks 48 hours later, sep- therefore, train every 72 hours, versus the real-world phenomena?

   6. DYDorian Yates23:16

      It's all very interesting, but if it doesn't work [chuckles] in practicality, what's it worth? You know, I hear this a lot now about this science-based training, but I actually don't know what science they're talking about. I mean, some meta studies, I think, but how were those studies carried out, with whom, and so on and so on. I, I don't know. I know the Casey Viator study, where he put on 65 pounds of muscle, [chuckles] verified, in a month-

   7. AHAndrew Huberman23:42

      Mm-hmm

   8. DYDorian Yates23:42

      ... by training, like, less than a- about an hour a week, I think.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman23:46

      It was your whole body-

   10. DYDorian Yates23:47

       I think it was whole body stuff

   11. AHAndrew Huberman23:47

       ... super slow sets to failure in this case.

   12. DYDorian Yates23:49

       And yes, he was very underweight because he wasn't on anything.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman23:52

       Mm-hmm.

   14. DYDorian Yates23:52

       And then he got sick, so-

   15. AHAndrew Huberman23:54

       Mm

   16. DYDorian Yates23:54

       ... he's underweight.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman23:55

       Mm-hmm.

   18. DYDorian Yates23:55

       So he's building back muscle, but he wouldn't build it back without-

   19. AHAndrew Huberman23:58

       Mm

   20. DYDorian Yates23:58

       ... much stimulus.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman23:59

       Mm-hmm.

   22. DYDorian Yates24:00

       So 65 pound of muscle, although it was, uh, muscle memory, let's say. He had been that big before, but he put it on-

   23. AHAndrew Huberman24:07

       Mm-hmm

   24. DYDorian Yates24:07

       ... in a month. And you compare that with Arnold, that-... dieted down to 210, I think, to do this film, Stay Hungry. Then he went back up to 230 for the Mr. Olympia, but that took him, like, three months. So you can compare the two. So when the people talk about these science-based studies, and you shouldn't train to failure, it's better to keep reps in reserve, I don't know which studies they're talking about. I'm not saying they're not out there, but I'm not familiar with them. I'm not familiar with how they carried out the studies. But if it doesn't work in practicality, does it, does it really matter?

   25. AHAndrew Huberman24:39

       Mm-hmm.

   26. DYDorian Yates24:39

       It doesn't matter.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman24:39

       Well, often, I, I've spent some time with these, and you might not be surprised to learn that a lot of times it's, you know, we got some college students, they're doing leg extensions. You know, we're looking at, you know, biopsies of the quadriceps, this kind of thing. Rarely is it the kind of compound movements, multi-joint movements. Um, sometimes, but n- but, but not always. Well, I- look, my experience with the HI- HIIT, high-intensity, low-ish volume training, has been... I, I will say, it's not just about gaining muscle. I mean, I'm now 50. I know you're almost 64?

   28. DYDorian Yates25:10

       Yep, coming up.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman25:11

       Looking, looking amazing. Um, you'll tell us more about longevity stuff in a, in a bit. But I have to say, part of it is also that if one trains the way that you're describing, each muscle once per week, focusing on intensity, not volume, and so forth, six weeks or so, then backing off for two weeks-

   30. DYDorian Yates25:27

       Yeah
8. 28:53 – 39:21

   Bodybuilding Journey, Reading, Training Logs, Aspiration, Parents

   1. AHAndrew Huberman28:53

      about you is that you've done things at the ultra-elite level within bodybuilding, but the advice that you're giving right now is very practical for the everyday person. And I'm not a psychologist, but I'm gonna venture a hypothesis here, which is that some of that has to do with the fact that you grew up blue-collar background, from Birmingham, working full-time while building out your bodybuilding career. You didn't come to it with a briefcase full of cash and-

   2. DYDorian Yates29:15

      No

   3. AHAndrew Huberman29:15

      ... and have the opportunity to just say, "Well, how much training can you do? Uh, well, let's figure it out." Like, you had to be very practical, and my guess is that you had to be very practical about recovery and nutrition as well. You probably... I'm guessing there was a point in your life where you couldn't afford, you know, uh, grass-fed meat shipped in from, uh-

   4. DYDorian Yates29:33

      No

   5. AHAndrew Huberman29:33

      ... south of France, and this guy- I'm not saying you do that now, [chuckles] but-

   6. DYDorian Yates29:35

      Let me tell you a story, man. When I was, uh, British Champion, that was a big thing back then, British Champion, right? 3,000 people in the audience, packed out. We had buses coming from my gym, all this stuff, you know, air horns. British bodybuilding crowds are not like- they're pretty rowdy, they're [chuckles] not, not-

   7. AHAndrew Huberman29:53

      I think the Brits around any sport-

   8. DYDorian Yates29:55

      It's too quiet over here [chuckles]

   9. AHAndrew Huberman29:55

      ... get pretty rowdy.

   10. DYDorian Yates29:56

       They're pretty rowdy.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman29:56

       Yeah.

   12. DYDorian Yates29:56

       If you see boxing in Vegas, and there's a British fighter, they take over the whole place-

   13. AHAndrew Huberman30:00

       Oh, yeah, yeah

   14. DYDorian Yates30:01

       ... yeah. Uh, so anyway, this great accolade, I'm British Champion now, and I went home. I got no car. I, I'm living in a council estate. It's like projects, you know? Council estate.... I got no carpet in my bedroom. I don't even have a proper bed, I just got a mattress, yeah? I got a TV that barely works, and I got a trophy. I'm like, "Wow, look, I'm, I'm British champion, but nobody gives a fuck, really." Like, you know? I do, and the people that's in the bodybuilding community, but this hasn't translated into anything yet. It took me about five years of really, like, you know, 100% dedication for me to be- turn pro. And the ironic thing is, I guess, like, when you're starting and you've got nothing, nobody's very interested and nobody wants to help you. When you start- when you become successes, then successful, people wanna help you 'cause they wanna help themselves, which is, it's fair enough, it's a transaction, but until then, no. So, uh, I got my first car when I was 25. All my friends were driving 18, 19, but the funny thing is, I didn't feel like I was missing out on anything. I knew I was on this mission, and this, in itself, was so powerful. Like, nobody else had that. I had this mission that I was doing, which was to change my life, basically, and bodybuilding was the, the vehicle. And, uh, I think, uh, something that really helped me is I'm an avid reader. I have been since I was about 10 years old, and I can take in a lot of information on a subject if I'm very interested. I'll almost be- get obsessed with it for a while, and then I might just say, "Oh, forget about that," and go interested in something else. Um, so all the guys that I was training with, they were, like, just watching videos and listening to other guys in the gym. I was reading Mike Mentzer, I was reading Arthur Jones. I was trying to figure it out for myself. Um, which means you need a very, uh, independent kind of personality. So, yeah, let me try do a bit more. Doesn't work, finished.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman32:12

       Mm-hmm.

   16. DYDorian Yates32:13

       You know? And the fact that I've got all this, every single workout from 1983 to 1997, written down, all the diets. Later on, when I'm using anabolics, what I'm using and how long, and all this stuff so I could, uh, analyze it, you know?

   17. AHAndrew Huberman32:28

       Mm-hmm.

   18. DYDorian Yates32:28

       See what's working and what's not working. A lot of guys were, like, shooting in the dark, uh-

   19. AHAndrew Huberman32:34

       Yeah

   20. DYDorian Yates32:34

       ... hoping they're gonna hit something, but they don't. And I, you know, I didn't have time to waste. This was a mission. Uh, I didn't have skills, I didn't have a family, you know, all this stuff, so bodybuilding was my road to change my life. Where it was going at first, I didn't know, but I knew it was going somewhere. I knew I could be very good at it.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman32:55

       Did you have the sense, even before all this, that, uh, perhaps you were, uh, different, or, or that you were destined to pursue something?

   22. DYDorian Yates33:06

       A hundred and... 100%.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman33:07

       From the-

   24. DYDorian Yates33:07

       I always knew.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman33:07

       What was your earliest recollection of knowing that you were going to aspire to some very high peak?

   26. DYDorian Yates33:14

       Well, the first thing I was into was, uh, Bruce Lee, right? So, you know, Bruce Lee, and then, even I was impressed with his physique then. But now I look, compared to a bodybuilder, it's very lean, but the abs and everything. I had that poster on the wall, you know, with the cuts down there and everything. So I was doing push-ups. Uh, just at my last year at school, I started getting bodybuilding magazines and doing a bit of weight training. Um, so there was that then. I left home at 16, and I just didn't have the lifestyle to pursue it, and for some reason, I'm not doing this... I said, "I'm not doing this until I can do it properly." And, uh, I always knew I was different, I guess, you know? But you didn't- I didn't know why, and I didn't know where it was going, but I knew it was going somewhere. And it's a strange feeling through my whole process. I feel like I've done it before, almost.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman34:07

       Mm.

   28. DYDorian Yates34:07

       You know? Like it was destined, like it wasn't a surprise.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman34:12

       Mm.

   30. DYDorian Yates34:12

       Uh, and the earlier years, it's like, I just knew I gotta just put everything into this. I gotta put everything into it, and I can't let anything distract me, 100% into this. Um, so yeah, I was... I knew I was destined for something, and when I started doing bodybuilding, I was like, "Ah, so this is it," yeah? I don't know if you heard the story, but I got in a little bit of trouble. It wasn't... Just rowdy guys, really. We got picked up on the street at the wrong time because there were some street riots in Birmingham, which we weren't involved with, but wrong place, wrong time.
9. 39:21 – 42:46

   Sponsors: AG1 & Our Place

   1. AHAndrew Huberman39:22

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10. 42:46 – 53:57

    TRT, Steroids, Genetics, Early Bodybuilding Career; Tool: Steroid Risks

    1. AHAndrew Huberman42:46

       I have two questions, one practical, one, uh, more related to your personal story. Uh, the practical one is one, uh, you know, nowadays, there's, uh, an almost obsession, uh, online of, uh, young guys, teens, twenties, thirties, who immediately think they should be on testosterone enhancement, TRT, that, uh, you know, going beyond TRT, getting on gear. How long- gear, for the folks that don't know, is, uh, [chuckles] is, uh, verbiage for, for steroids.

    2. DYDorian Yates43:14

       Yeah.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman43:14

       Um, TRT, testosterone replacement therapy. You know, lower dosages designed to bring things into upper normal range, um, in some cases, a little higher. What, uh, from the time you picked up a weight, uh, maybe in this youth detention center-

    4. DYDorian Yates43:28

       Yeah

    5. AHAndrew Huberman43:28

       ... until the first time you went on gear, how long was that, and how much did you achieve doing the sorts of training you were talking about before?

    6. DYDorian Yates43:35

       Okay.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman43:35

       I want to separate this out from the competitive-

    8. DYDorian Yates43:37

       Yeah, yeah

    9. AHAndrew Huberman43:37

       ... from the competitive phase. Um, in part because, uh, frankly, I think, uh, and I've been very open, I went on, I'm on low-dose TRT. I started when I was 45, about 125 milligrams a week. Okay.

    10. DYDorian Yates43:49

        Yeah, well, I'm-

    11. AHAndrew Huberman43:49

        Um, same as you

    12. DYDorian Yates43:50

        ... I'm about the same [chuckles] dose.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman43:51

        Yeah, same as you. I, uh, so, um, but I, I always tell people, they, they really, really, really should wait, if do it at all. How long did you have without, without anything? Where it's, you know-

    14. DYDorian Yates44:03

        Okay

    15. AHAndrew Huberman44:03

        ... food, training, sleep, maybe some supplements, like some creatine, some, some protein powder.

    16. DYDorian Yates44:08

        Right, so I started in '83, earlier in the year. Uh, I was 180, 185, but very lean. You can see some pictures of me after six months training.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman44:20

        Yeah, well, you have those thick joints. I mean, you're, you have an athletic-

    18. DYDorian Yates44:23

        Yeah

    19. AHAndrew Huberman44:23

        ... you're-

    20. DYDorian Yates44:23

        I got very low body fat as well, naturally.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman44:26

        Mm-hmm.

    22. DYDorian Yates44:26

        Uh, my son and my daughter, they both, like, had abs and, like, when they were 11 years old. Very, very lean, pale skin, low body fat, thin skin, uh, type of thing. So you wouldn't say, "Wow, look at that guy, he's big," but you'd say, "Wow, he's, he's really cut, this guy." That's how I started, 180. So, uh, after six months, I think I was 195, and the gym owner put on a contest in Birmingham, local gym thing, and he was like, "Come on, go in a contest," and all that. I don't know. Okay, so I went in. No diet, no steroids, nothing, yeah? It was the first time this contest. I still got the pictures, but the two guys that I was competing against, they came second and third. I won. But both these guys were already on stuff. So I was able to beat them not using anything, right? Because genetically, I, I'm better, I guess. I'm not saying in six months, uh, I overtook them. I probably started ahead of them. So that was with nothing. I got up to 210.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman45:31

        Mm-hmm.

    24. DYDorian Yates45:31

        So I'm just looking back, uh, because we did some social media posts with my early training, yeah? So I'm benching three plates a side for, like, three or four reps, and I want to go now into the IFBB and compete, uh, which I know everybody's using, right? So I was 210, uh, when I decided I'm gonna do this competition, and I did some Debol, 20 milligrams a day for about six weeks, then I switched to Anavar for the contest. So I went from 180 to 210, so that's 30 pounds I put on in a year and a half training or something. Then I decided to do the competition. So in six weeks, I think, on 20 milligrams of Debol, I went to, like, 230. You know, it's a big boost in six weeks, but I already put on 30 pounds, like, without anything. Um, and for me, it was always like, "I'm gonna do competitive bodybuilding, and I intend to make a career out of it, so I just want to be on the same playing field as everybody else." So I won the, a novice competition in the IFBB, and, like, just, everyone was, like, freaking out. The guy who was the head of the federation, who's also a judge at the Mr. Olympia, and some other guys came backstage and said, "Where the, where the hell have you come from? And why are you in the novice competition?" I said, "Well, I'm from Birmingham, and it's my first competition in the federation, so I start at the bottom and work..." "You're probably better than our best heavyweight." I'm like, "Nah, come on." And they were laughing, like, "This kid is like... We want you to join the British team in two weeks' time at the World Games," which is World Championship. So I went from a novice, two weeks later, to competing in the World Games against Berry DeMay, who became a top Olympian, Matt Mendenhall, who was the best amateur in USA at the time, and I got seventh place there. And I remember, like, I'd basically spent out all my funds to get ready for this contest. I had nothing left. I had to buy a tracksuit, tanning lotion. Like, I was earning very little money, so this took all my money [chuckles] , and I'm broke. And I had to ask my brother-in-law, "Can you lend me, like, 20 pounds, 'cause I need to do this and get a taxi to the, the [chuckles] uh, the team selection?"

    25. AHAndrew Huberman47:54

        Mm-hmm.

    26. DYDorian Yates47:54

        Right, so I went to the team selection. I got picked, but I was, like, amongst all these guys, and I'm thinking, like, "I just borrowed some money to get here," [chuckles] you know? But they picked me for the World Games team. So I went, quite uniquely, I think, from a novice competition to a world championship in two weeks. So that's, you know-

    27. AHAndrew Huberman48:12

        Mm-hmm

    28. DYDorian Yates48:12

        ... kind of the level I was at when I first started competing.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman48:15

        I don't want to put words into your mouth, but, um, do you think it's f- fair to say that for people who are not going to pursue competitive bodybuilding, that it's probably best to explore how far they can go with their training and good nutrition, and perhaps even without hormone replacement until they really need it, or later? I mean, to me, it seems like, given the health risks, unless there's... It's sort of like boxing.

    30. DYDorian Yates48:42

        Yeah.
11. 53:57 – 58:31

    Father & Son Relationship; Training Evolution

    1. AHAndrew Huberman53:57

       but the second question, uh, relates to this, uh, thing that you mentioned about your dad had he not passed away young. Um, a friend of mine, uh, we were talking recently about, uh, having daughters versus sons. Uh, I won't provide the context for this, but... And he said to me, uh, he's got three daughters-

    2. DYDorian Yates54:12

       Yeah

    3. AHAndrew Huberman54:12

       ... and he's very happy with his three daughters, and he said, and he said, uh, "You know, the one thing about, uh, sons is they feel..." I think he was talking about himself. "They feel like they have to fill their father's shoes."

    4. DYDorian Yates54:24

       Yeah.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman54:24

       "There's gonna be a phase where they're competing with their dad, no matter what."

    6. DYDorian Yates54:28

       Yeah.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman54:29

       And my reflexive response was, "Nah!" And then I realized, listen, I went through all that stuff.

    8. DYDorian Yates54:34

       Right.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman54:35

       All that stuff. And in many ways, my dad and I are on good terms now, but, uh, we had some choppy years in there. But, uh, for sure, but now we're good. But the friction, I mean, that grew me a lot, too.

    10. DYDorian Yates54:47

        Yeah.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman54:48

        I mean, it, it, uh, forced me to work harder. I mean, there were probably some, uh, long nights that, you know, I just... I wasn't consciously tying it to, like, "Oh, I'm trying to, you know, outdo him," but I pushed myself to become somebody that was at least as, you know, successful in certain ways and ideally more. And so d- do you think this is a, this is a real thing?

    12. DYDorian Yates55:08

        I think every situation can go two ways, right?

    13. AHAndrew Huberman55:10

        Mm-hmm. I mean, you have a son now, so how do you think about this with him?

    14. DYDorian Yates55:14

        ... I think he found it tough.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman55:16

        Mm-hmm.

    16. DYDorian Yates55:16

        He confides, uh, with my wife a little bit, that he found it tough, like, uh... But I'm like: "Don't try to compete with me in what I do, because- but take the principles of discipline and hard work, and you can apply that really to anything." Uh, but yeah, I think, you know, uh, my son did some bodybuilding, and it was-- he was, uh, playing with the idea of competing, which he probably could have done, uh, quite well at. But I said, "Look, you're a sensitive guy, yeah? Much more sensitive than me. I got thick skin. But let me tell you what will happen if you compete. You'll win." Ah, of course he won, he's Dorian's son. "You lose?" Ah, how can he lose? He's Dorian's son. I said, "Either way, [chuckles] that's, be prepared for... That's gonna be the reaction, so, you know, if you wanna do it, I'll support you." But he decided not to get into the competitive side of things.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman56:12

        Mm-hmm.

    18. DYDorian Yates56:13

        Um, well, he trains people and stuff, so, you know, he's still... Both of my kids are in the fitness world-

    19. AHAndrew Huberman56:19

        Mm-hmm

    20. DYDorian Yates56:19

        ... let's say. Um, but competitive world is a, is a different thing, and there's very few people that can get to the top and make it work for them, you know?

    21. AHAndrew Huberman56:29

        Mm-hmm.

    22. DYDorian Yates56:29

        More people now, because before you had to compete, and you had to win, and you had to be in the magazines. Now you, a lot of people can make money online coaching or whatever it is. Uh, so there's more avenues now that you can-

    23. AHAndrew Huberman56:41

        Yeah

    24. DYDorian Yates56:41

        ... go into to make money-

    25. AHAndrew Huberman56:43

        Mm-hmm

    26. DYDorian Yates56:43

        ... i- in the, what's called now the fitness industry. It's so much bigger than when I was competing, but I would say purest bodybuilding is less people doing it. More people going to the gym and doing fitness in general, uh, but I think bodybuilding, per se, was more popular in the '80s and '90s, 'cause it was all new, and there was... Unless there was no CrossFit, there was no MMA, there was... You know, things have changed since then. There was no Fitness Mr. Olympia, there's no... I don't know, they've got so many classes now. So, there's many more things for people to do than, you know, maybe they figure it's not worth it to be a competitive bodybuilder if you can ma- learn a, uh, earn an income online and not, you know, put yourself online in competition. So, things have changed a, a lot since then.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman57:31

        Yeah, and the, the bodies that are in movies have changed tremendously.

    28. DYDorian Yates57:36

        Yeah.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman57:36

        I mean, the average size of a male or female, the, the shape is, is so much more bodybuilder-esque now.

    30. DYDorian Yates57:42

        Yeah-
12. 58:31 – 1:05:34

    Workout Intensity & Motivation, Self-Mastery, Transforming Anger

    1. AHAndrew Huberman58:31

       have a thick skin. Um, one of the things that, uh, got me to learn about you early on, because frankly, I, I, I was involved in other things, a little bit of martial arts, some soccer, some things, and, and bodybuilding, to me, wasn't something I really wanted to pursue as a sport, but I wanted to put on muscle. I was-

    2. DYDorian Yates58:47

       Yeah

    3. AHAndrew Huberman58:47

       ... a tall, skinny kid. Um, that's what led me to Mentzer and how I learned about your training, discovered what you were doing, and then, um, really learned to extract the, what I think is the, the best of, of bodybuilding for somebody who doesn't wanna do it. Like, how are they training? How are they eating? What are they doing that's separate from the drugs that I can benefit from, this kind of thing.

    4. DYDorian Yates59:05

       Yeah, absolutely.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman59:05

       And to be fair, TRT is very, can be very useful to treat depression and other things for men, and in some cases, even women. We'll get back to that, but I, I, I wanna just kinda frame this in a certain way. However, the, um, you know, one of the things that I think drew me to what you were doing at the time, is that you had this kind of like mellow, um, sort of, or, or I would say kind of like quiet, thick-skinned stance. We also have kinda commonalities through our music taste-

    6. DYDorian Yates59:33

       Yeah

    7. AHAndrew Huberman59:33

       ... so I saw that, and I recognized certain things.

    8. DYDorian Yates59:35

       Still got that punk inside me, man, [chuckles]

    9. AHAndrew Huberman59:35

       And the tattoos, the punk rock thing. I g- yeah, oi music and that kinda thing. And so you go, "Oh, here's somebody who's kinda different than the rest of this, th- this community." But when people see the videos of you training, we'll put some links to those, it's so striking because you're like this, but then in the moment of a set, it's like... I mean, intensity is, doesn't quite explain it. It's like... And I'm curious, because people can see those videos. What was going on in your head? Were you think- going into the set, through the set, were you thinking about, I'm just guessing, your, your dad, uh, how you were an, an underdog?

    10. DYDorian Yates1:00:16

        Yeah.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:16

        Were you just thinking about the muscle? What were you using besides listening to loud music? And, um, intensity doesn't come from nowhere. It comes from someplace. What's your internal narrative at those times?

    12. DYDorian Yates1:00:30

        Well, I always prepared myself before I went to the gym. Just walk through the doors casually. I'd review my training before I went there. "This is what I did last week. This is what I want to do today." And I would sit and do a visualization. So I'd have specific clothes for the day, and like OCD, maybe. And I used to have this thing, which seems strange to me now, yeah? I used to iron my clothes before I went to the gym, right? They had to be ironed, they had to be thin. And I just read a study how ironing clothes really lowers your cortisol by about 40%. I didn't know that. I was just doing it. I trained with my friend in New York, he's like, "What the fuck you doing, man? Just put your T-shirt..." "No, no, no, I gotta iron it." There was a whole-

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:18

        Mm-hmm

    14. DYDorian Yates1:01:18

        ... game preparation going on to get me in, uh-... maybe OCD, maybe too much, but it worked for me, yeah? So I review, go to the gym, and have my targets, and, uh, I use a special type of motivation. It's called, "Fuck you" motivation. Eh? Fuck you to all the teachers at school that said you're gonna get anywhere. Fuck you, fuck anyone! So, I'm gonna show you. Fuck you. So [chuckles] fuck you motivation is a great one, yeah? Whatever you got inside you, anger, negative emotions, use it all. Use it all like fire, and then when I go home, I'm like, "Ah, I'm chilled." [chuckles] I've slayed dragons in the gym. I've hacked people up with my sword. I've... A- and it's like a form of mastery over one's self, mastery over... Uh, the whole thing with the dieting as well for competitions, maybe I went a little bit overboard with it and came down a little bit too much, 'cause then it was like mastery over my instincts to wanna eat, and do I do this? No, I'm deciding here. I'm in control. And maybe this worked against me a bit as well, because I would be, like, going to the work, "I don't care if you... If I feel a little ah! I'm going through it," you know? So, um, [lips smack] yeah, I used all this anger, negative emotions, whatever it is. I- "I'll show you. I'm gonna make it. I'm gonna do this." So whatever works for you, but for me, that worked. You know, the... Anything negative, I turn it into something positive.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:02:59

        Mm-hmm.

    16. DYDorian Yates1:02:59

        You know, it's, um, transforming the negative energy, which could be destructive to myself or maybe other people around me, taking it, uh, alchemy, you know? Changing it into something else. So I used all that negative feeling, negative emotions, and I stayed in Birmingham as well while I was Mr. Olympia for six years. Uh, more opportunities here and everything, but more distractions as well. So I wanted to stay in the same gym, try to keep that same attitude, even though I got more money in the bank, and I'm driving a Mercedes instead of jumping on the bus, right? But I wanted to keep that. That's why I didn't move over here. A lot of people ask me why I didn't go to the States, 'cause the industry's there. Um, but by the time I got to be Mr. Olympia, I could kinda dictate things, so I did what I wanted to do, which was [inhales] keep my head down and keep the hunger going.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:52

        I love the transmutation of anger, and the... Everyone's got their stories of the... Man, I can remember in the third grade, someone said something about the jacket that my mom gave me that day to wear.

    18. DYDorian Yates1:04:02

        Yeah.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:04:02

        Like, these little things, I mean, they don't bother me anymore-

    20. DYDorian Yates1:04:04

        Yeah

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:04:05

        ... but there were times when y- you know, y- we can, we can layer in-

    22. DYDorian Yates1:04:08

        It's fuel

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:04:09

        ... that stuff.

    24. DYDorian Yates1:04:09

        And use it for fuel.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:04:10

        It's fuel, yeah.

    26. DYDorian Yates1:04:10

        Yeah, take that anger, the negative thing, whatever, change it into something positive. Uh, and we were discussing earlier, like, do we know any, like, elite level athletes that came from a very comfortable, wealthy family? I don't know any. Well, I'm not saying there isn't, but I don't know any.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:04:28

        Maybe in golf or something.

    28. DYDorian Yates1:04:29

        You need that, you need that motivation.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:04:30

        Yeah.

    30. DYDorian Yates1:04:30

        You know, you wanna make something.
13. 1:05:34 – 1:12:18

    Death; Opportunity Analysis; Bodybuilders, Steroids & Diuretics

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:34

       I have this theory that, um, barring accident or injury, that we kinda have a unconscious sense of how long we're gonna live. I started thinking about this when I r- read the biography of Steve Jobs, who-

    2. DYDorian Yates1:05:48

       Yeah

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:48

       ... you know, he was really on a mission early on, and, and kind of an odd guy. He, he was in the area I grew up in, and, you know, the, this whole thing with LSD, but also scream therapy, but also he thought that objects had personality and things like that. He was d- he was quite different. And-

    4. DYDorian Yates1:06:03

       He was doing something different.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:04

       He was doing something different. He saw the world very differently, and he changed the world.

    6. DYDorian Yates1:06:07

       Yeah.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:07

       Like him or hate him, he, he absolutely changed the world. If you learn about him, you realize that he, he had some sense that he might not live a very long time.

    8. DYDorian Yates1:06:16

       Yeah.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:17

       And he died quite young, pancreatic cancer.

    10. DYDorian Yates1:06:19

        Is it a sense, or is it a premonition? Is it-

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:22

        Yeah

    12. DYDorian Yates1:06:22

        ... you know? And you can edit these thoughts, I think. 'Cause I always had this bit of a fatalistic thing, maybe because my dad died so young.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:29

        Mm-hmm.

    14. DYDorian Yates1:06:30

        So my dad died at 42. My mom quickly met another guy that she wanted to marry, and he also died at 44. So I saw two guys, [chuckles] okay, they both smoked 40 cigarettes a day, which was usual at that time, and don't exercise and drink alcohol-

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:49

        Not much sunlight up there

    16. DYDorian Yates1:06:49

        ... Not get enough sleep-

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:50

        Yeah

    18. DYDorian Yates1:06:50

        ... and no sunlight.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:51

        Yeah.

    20. DYDorian Yates1:06:51

        All these things.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:52

        Yeah.

    22. DYDorian Yates1:06:52

        Um, but, you know, I've, I've changed this over the years, 'cause now, [chuckles] now I'm 63, going on 64, and, uh, appear to be very healthy. I feel great, and I'm looking forward to the future, and I don't know. None of us know, right? I'm just trying to live the best life that I can live, day by day, and, uh, you know, be the best version of myself, and have a good quality of life, and, uh, appreciate every day at a time. I mean, this is what we learn from dogs, yeah? They don't live in the [chuckles] in the future. They don't live in the past. They're just there all the time. They're there as a reminder.... we're both dog lovers, so we were talking about that earlier on. So, uh, we don't know how long we're gonna live, just make the most of it every day. And, uh, I w- you know, I said I read a lot, so I was- this book, um, by a lady that works in end care, you know? So she interviewed all these people that, you know, they know they're dying, right? They're on the way out, and what they regret, and all this stuff. Uh, mostly it was not doing the things they love.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:05

        Mm-hmm.

    24. DYDorian Yates1:08:05

        Not telling the people that they love, that they love them enough. Not one fucking person said, "I wish I worked harder," [chuckles] or anything like that, you know? So I think we have to just make the most of the moment, make the most of each day, and, uh, appreciate it. 'Cause it's, you know, it's gonna end, right? We're gonna move on.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:26

        Mm-hmm.

    26. DYDorian Yates1:08:26

        I don't believe we stop, we just move on.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:29

        Yeah, I, I think we continue on in some, in some form.

    28. DYDorian Yates1:08:32

        We're already there. We're already everywhere at the same time, and that's what I think. We're just aware of this... We're on this channel right now. We're on this radio, radio wave. [chuckles]

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:41

        I certainly subscribe to that, and I wanna get into kind of your, um, [lips smack] exploration of, of psychedelics and, uh, consciousness, um, and then moving on from it, which not everyone is aware of.

    30. DYDorian Yates1:08:55

        Yeah.
14. 1:12:18 – 1:16:05

    Human Possibility, Fitness & Health Progression, Nutrition

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:18

       interesting because, you know, bodybuilding's an unusual sport, but for that matter, so is free solo rock climbing. We had Alex Honnold on here. He, you know, climbed El Cap, probably the most dangerous athletic feat of all time. One slip and fall, and you're dead.

    2. DYDorian Yates1:12:31

       Yeah.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:31

       He said, "You can make mistakes, but not, not slip-and-fall mistakes." Um, things like that, things like bodybuilding, things like what we see from the Red Bull athletes, I do think that serves an important role in getting hum- us, as the rest of us, to think about what's possible with the human body, technology, and pharmacology. And I do think that from each extreme sport, even skateboarding, a sport I was involved in early on... By the way, street skateboarders putting their, theirselves at extreme risk, only one, one guy wears a helmet.

    4. DYDorian Yates1:13:00

       Yeah.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:13:00

       One.

    6. DYDorian Yates1:13:01

       Okay.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:13:01

       On vert, they wear helmets, right? But on the street, they don't do it. Why? Because it's not part of the culture. It would like be asking professional bodybuilders to stop taking gear. It's not going to happen. It's embedded in the culture to see how far you can take something in a certain dimension. I think these things provide a useful role in getting-... the rest of humans to understand what's possible, and there's usual- usually, excuse me, valuable takeaways, like resistance training.

    8. DYDorian Yates1:13:25

       Absolutely.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:13:26

       Nutrition. The new nutrition guidelines for the US just came out today. They, it basically inverted the fu- food pyramid, limited amount of grains, fruits, vegetables-

    10. DYDorian Yates1:13:35

        Oh, great!

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:13:36

        -meat, eggs. You know, it's funny. [laughing] It's, it's basically what, uh, has been talked about in the fitness bodybuilding community for a very long time: insulin management, low sugar. I mean, it's so funny, because now everyone's like, "Oh, you know, this is so outrageous," but that was pulled from the sport that you're describing.

    12. DYDorian Yates1:13:54

        Yeah.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:13:54

        So for people who might not be familiar with the names, uh, 'cause our listenership is broad, I think it's important for people to understand how something like fitness or health progresses. It pulls these things from the pioneers that were willing to, frankly, go pioneer-

    14. DYDorian Yates1:14:08

        Outlive, yeah

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:08

        ... how it's done. It doesn't come from university studies, and I say that as a university professor. It comes from the real world, it, and then back through again.

    16. DYDorian Yates1:14:17

        Oh, we're probably 20 years ahead. I mean, I don't know about the US, but, uh, I went to a conference in London-

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:24

        Mm-hmm

    18. DYDorian Yates1:14:24

        ... and, uh, it was the National Health Service-

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:27

        Mm-hmm

    20. DYDorian Yates1:14:27

        ... how they're now, uh, gonna study more nutrition.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:32

        Right.

    22. DYDorian Yates1:14:32

        Because in their five or six years, they do, they do two hours study on nutrition, which is like, I mean, you can't even get high school-level understanding in two hours, right? So I was pleased to hear that now they're, you know, they're gonna look at, uh, nutrition as part of the health thing, but it was funny because, uh, they were promoting a plant-based diet. Uh, but you know, unfortunately, it's gonna lack this, and this, and this, so we need to reinforce it with supplements. It's all in the animal-based diet, but that raises cholesterol, so that's bad, but we'll have a very deficient diet and have to supplement it. I felt like, wouldn't it be better just to take the diet that has the nutrients in it in the first place?

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:21

        Mm-hmm.

    24. DYDorian Yates1:15:22

        So I see competitive bodybuilding is like the peak of an iceberg.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:28

        Mm-hmm.

    26. DYDorian Yates1:15:28

        You know, it's an extreme. It's right at the top, yeah? But the basic things that we learn can apply to somebody that wants to improve their health.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:36

        Mm-hmm.

    28. DYDorian Yates1:15:36

        So at an extreme level, we could say maybe it's unhealthy, but if you take the basic principles, it can be very healthy. Uh, having your hormones in the correct place, building muscle mass, the- there's incredible things that you can do for your health, and you won't be, uh, needing to rely on, uh, medications to control your blood sugar and your blood pressure and, uh, wh- whatever else. Your, your body can do it itself, you know?

15. 1:16:05 – 1:17:26

    Sponsor: LMNT

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:16:06

       I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT. LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper hydration is critical for brain and body function. Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance. It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes. The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells. Drinking LMNT makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes. My days tend to start really fast, [chuckles] meaning I have to jump right into work or right into exercise. So to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an LMNT packet dissolved in it. I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes. LMNT has a bunch of great-tasting flavors. In fact, I love them all. I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor. So if you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with any purchase. Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.

16. 1:17:26 – 1:20:42

    Mike Mentzer

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:17:26

       This is, uh, uh, perhaps a, a good, uh, moment to, uh, tell a brief story about our mutual friend, Mike Mentzer.

    2. DYDorian Yates1:17:34

       Yeah.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:17:34

       I'll keep it really brief.

    4. DYDorian Yates1:17:35

       Yeah.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:17:35

       Um, I paid for an online consult with Mike. It was, like, 100 bucks. I had to wire it to him, which was a fortune for me. It was, like, all my money. I was in high school-

    6. DYDorian Yates1:17:43

       Yeah, yeah

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:17:43

       ... right? You know, I was working at this little skateboard shop, when, you know, selling shoes. Maybe it wasn't all my money, but it was significant. I had to wire it to him. He calls, and my mother was, um, like, "Why is this grown man calling?" [laughing] Yeah. Um, "Who is this grown man calling the house?" He laid down the program. He barked when he spoke.

    8. DYDorian Yates1:18:00

       Yeah.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:01

       I don't think people realize, he, he literally barked-

    10. DYDorian Yates1:18:03

        Yeah

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:03

        ... when he spoke each word.

    12. DYDorian Yates1:18:05

        Yeah.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:05

        But there was a real, um, kindness be- way back somewhere in that bark. Um, and the methods worked, but he gave me some... We stayed in touch, and, uh, for a couple reasons. First of all, he emphasized on that call, but in subsequent calls, um, "Stay away from anabolics." I didn't ask.

    14. DYDorian Yates1:18:25

        Yeah.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:25

        He just said it.

    16. DYDorian Yates1:18:26

        Yeah.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:26

        He said-- And he said, "Learn to enjoy training really fucking hard." Those are his words.

    18. DYDorian Yates1:18:32

        Train yourself, man. It's a beautiful thing-

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:33

        Yeah

    20. DYDorian Yates1:18:33

        ... when you push yourself.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:33

        And I was like, "All right!"

    22. DYDorian Yates1:18:34

        Yeah.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:34

        Like, I was coming from skateboarding, so, like, I'm used to getting hurt, right? And I was like, th- you know, but he's like, "Y- learn to enjoy training really fucking hard," his words. And then he also encouraged me to read. He was, like, r- obsessed with philosophy. He was obsessed with-

    24. DYDorian Yates1:18:48

        Yeah

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:49

        ... Ayn Rand, objectivist epistemology. A lot of that stuff I found to be somewhat interesting, but, I mean, he was super dedicated to that, but he also embedded in me, he said, uh, he said, "You seem like you like learning. Maybe you should focus on school." I was like, "All right," and at the time, I was kinda rebellious against my dad, uh, eh. And I took his advice 'cause it was coming from him, and then when I got to school, we stayed in touch. I was in Santa Barbara, and he said, "Just remember..." I'll never forget this. He said, "Just remember, 90% of what you're learning is completely wrong, and the worst part is, they don't realize they're wrong." And I said, "90%?" And he said, "90%," he said, "but the 10% that's right-

    26. DYDorian Yates1:19:30

        Yeah

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:19:30

        ... those are the gems that you build off of." And I thought-... Man, and now, you know, 30 year, more than 30 years later, as a professional scientist, and now podcaster, I can tell you, having spent a lot of time running studies, writing grants, reviewing gra- like, I've been deeply in that community, he's exactly right.

    28. DYDorian Yates1:19:48

        Yeah.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:19:48

        And so he was wrong about a great many things, but he had some real gems embedded in that, like, barking of a voice. [chuckles] You remember, like-

    30. DYDorian Yates1:19:55

        He's gonna, he's gonna take the boxes, right?
17. 1:20:42 – 1:30:22

    1992-1993 Mr. Olympia, Underdog vs Favorite Mindset

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:20:42

       L- let's talk about those photos.

    2. DYDorian Yates1:20:44

       Yeah.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:20:44

       'Cause I think... And we'll, and we'll put them up, we'll put a link to them. What happened in that one year, and w- why do you think that that sort of, um, uh, kind of transformation is so much different than, like, somebody getting big, just big, or somebody getting real strong, or somebody... Like, something happened in that one year tran- the before and afters, that-

    4. DYDorian Yates1:21:08

       Well, actually-

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:21:08

       -changed the way people think about-

    6. DYDorian Yates1:21:10

       Yeah

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:21:10

       ... fitness in general, not just the sport of bodybuilding, but th- but fitness, like, what the human body can do.

    8. DYDorian Yates1:21:16

       Yeah, it was a breakthrough level, uh, for the sport, you know, as people say. Before Dorian and after Dorian, the sport changed. Uh, and my approach was unique as well, and, uh, Joe Weider, you know, he had his way of doing things, right?

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:21:34

       This is the guy, by the way, folks, that ran Muscle and Fitness and a bunch of other magazines.

    10. DYDorian Yates1:21:38

        Yeah.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:21:38

        He basically took the sport of bodybuilding and popularized it into what is now the health and fitness industry.

    12. DYDorian Yates1:21:46

        He was a brilliant marketer, you know? Joe Weider, trainer of the champions, he didn't know nothing about training, but he knew about marketing. Here's the thing, right? 1992 Mr. Olympia, and then '93. So people think that between, uh, '92 and '93, on stage, 17 pounds of muscle I put on in one year. It's not really true. In '92, six weeks out from the Mr. Olympia, I was probably five pounds, six pounds less than the next year, right? But I knew Lee Haney wasn't gonna be there. I knew that the guys I was competing against were smaller than me, so I said, "I don't mind sacrificing some size to get, like, super shredded, like, as shredded as the smaller guy," right? So I was coming down, coming down, coming down, thinking I'd get, you know, more shredded. Maybe I did a little bit, but I realized, analyzing, because we don't have no iPhone or nothing, right? But I used to take pictures every week, take the camera roll to the, to, you know, and wait for them to develop it and all that.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:23:08

        Mm-hmm.

    14. DYDorian Yates1:23:08

        And then look, "Oh, how do I look?"

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:23:09

        Mm-hmm.

    16. DYDorian Yates1:23:12

        Uh, and I looked in '92, six weeks out, I said, "I'm pretty much contest ready then," but I just kept dieting, dieting. So I sacrificed a lot in '92, and I determined that I wouldn't do that in '93. I still did a little bit, because I tend to overdo things, right? So '93, I would say I put on six or seven pounds of muscle. As a Mr. Olympia, this is outstanding, right? 'Cause you're already at a high level. But I didn't sacrifice 10 pounds of muscle that I wasted the year before. So it appeared that I put on 17 pounds of pure muscle in a year. I didn't, I just simply didn't sacrifice as much as I did the year before. So it was a great year of progress, and the pictures that were taken in '92 were taken a week after the contest, so I had lost that muscle.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:24:06

        Mm-hmm.

    18. DYDorian Yates1:24:06

        So if you compare that one to that one, it looks like, wow, it's night and day. It wasn't really. I got pictures from '92 where I'm almost as big as '93, but nobody saw those pictures. And the pictures that I took in '93 was my friend with a camera. I said, "Hey, would it be good if you come up and did those pictures that we did last year in the same spot in the gym?" "Yeah, let's do that." And when he showed me afterwards, even I was freaked out. I was like, "What?" And he's like, "I'm sending these to the magazines." They were not meant to be the... They were meant to be just for my record, and he had a better camera than me, so that's what I wanted them for. That's why I got my underwear on and my socks, yeah? Because I never think these pub- photos are gonna be published, right? But he sent them to Weider, and, uh, the editor at the Weider magazines was Peter McGough. He was English, so we were friends. So he sent them to Peter McGough, and Peter said, "All the guys are coming to the office, and they know that I'm friends with you, so they're, you know, looking for something. So, you know, how is it going?" He said, "Oh, I got these..." Very casually, "I've got these pictures. Would you like to see them?" He said, "I put them on the desk." He said, "They went white." They just went, "Whoosh" and just stood there shaking their head, like, "Okay, it's on for second then." I mean, six weeks out, everyone gave up when they saw those pictures, more or less.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:25:30

        How did it feel to be, at one point, an underdog, and then you're the winner?

    20. DYDorian Yates1:25:39

        ... Well, hold on!

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:25:40

        Mm.

    22. DYDorian Yates1:25:40

        Before I was a winner-

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:25:41

        Mm

    24. DYDorian Yates1:25:42

        ... very difficult, because I had this underdog thing. I'm from the streets, and nobody thinks I can do this, and I'm from England, and they're all American, and this and this and this. That's against me, yeah? Theoretically. Uh, so I thrived on that. I, you know, "Fuck you!" mo- motivation [chuckles] as I said, "I'm gonna show you." So I got second to Lee Haney, but then he retired, so now the title's open, and logically, I'm the favorite. And actually, I struggled with that for a, for a while. Like, first of all, it was like, "I'm the favorite now. I don't have that underdog thing. I don't know what to do now." And then I was like, "So I'm probably gonna be Mr. Olympia. This, it's a real..." You know, when I went against Haney, I wanted to try to win, but I was a new guy, and, "Wow! So I can be Mr. Olympia?" And then I just kinda turned it around in my head. "Yeah, but wh- why not, eh? Somebody's gotta m- be Mr. Olympia. And do you know anybody that's dedicated themself to the craft the way you have? Absolutely not. So yeah, goddamn it, I deserve it." And this took about a week to, like, change this whole, uh, point of view, where I was comfortable going in as the, as the favorite. 'Cause yeah, I'm gonna win, so I should be the favorite. But it... Well, I struggled with it, man.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:27:01

        Mm-hmm.

    26. DYDorian Yates1:27:01

        'Cause the whole time I was the underdog, even when I was in England. I'm not social, so I didn't talk to the judges or socialize or do anything. It was like, you know, "Who is this guy? Why does he... Why is he like that? Just comes here and disappears, just..." 'Cause I wasn't interested in socializing or talking or trying to get favors. I'm just doing my thing here, you know?

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:27:22

        Well, dopamine is all about the pleasure of pursuit-

    28. DYDorian Yates1:27:26

        Yes

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:27:26

        ... not the pursuit of pleasure. And the problem with reaching a goal line is, for many people, they don't know what to do at that point. In fact, uh, one of the, uh, coaches for the Boston Celtics, who used to be a former chess prodigy, Josh Waitzkin, uh, was on here, and he said, "You know, it's very different when you're defending a championship. You're now the defending champion-"

    30. DYDorian Yates1:27:50

        You're on the top
18. 1:30:22 – 1:38:52

    Inspiration & Achieving Goal; Retirement, Transition & Identity

    1. DYDorian Yates1:30:22

       know?

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:30:22

       Sounds like I'm just jocking you, but I'm telling you, like, that's, that's a very wise perspective, because a lot of people don't wanna let go.

    3. DYDorian Yates1:30:29

       Yeah.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman1:30:30

       They don't see themselves in anything else, and therefore, they don't know what to do. Also, when you reach a certain level in anything, it becomes easier to just make a little bit more money over here-

    5. DYDorian Yates1:30:41

       Yeah

    6. AHAndrew Huberman1:30:41

       ... get a little- I mean, you know-

    7. DYDorian Yates1:30:42

       Plus, you're the king there, man

    8. AHAndrew Huberman1:30:42

       ... people will just pay you to be in the room.

    9. DYDorian Yates1:30:44

       You're, you're the king there.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman1:30:45

        Yeah, yeah.

    11. DYDorian Yates1:30:45

        You're the king, right?

    12. AHAndrew Huberman1:30:46

        Yeah.

    13. DYDorian Yates1:30:47

        So maybe you don't wanna give that up. Uh, so yeah, it was tough, and I, I, I kind of observed a lot of athletes from different sports, how they really struggle.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:30:58

        Mm-hmm.

    15. DYDorian Yates1:30:59

        Because, yes, you can still go to the gym and lift weights, but why are you doing it now? That absolute tunnel that you put yourself in, like, you go in a battle every day for this goal, that in itself is a high. The dopamine, as you say, as the chase... I mean, a competition is once a year, right? For me, at least, it was once a year. So it's the whole year that you, you know-

    16. AHAndrew Huberman1:31:23

        It's that notebook

    17. DYDorian Yates1:31:24

        ... you're aiming on that target.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman1:31:25

        It's a-

    19. DYDorian Yates1:31:25

        I can see that day.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman1:31:26

        Yeah.

    21. DYDorian Yates1:31:26

        The whole year-

    22. AHAndrew Huberman1:31:26

        Yeah

    23. DYDorian Yates1:31:27

        ... I'm thinking about that day like I'm in a tunnel. Uh, or probably my best friend is like, "It's great to hang out with you now, because you're in the room." He said, "I'd be with you before, but I'm well aware that your mind was not there." Like, you know?

    24. AHAndrew Huberman1:31:41

        Mm-hmm.

    25. DYDorian Yates1:31:41

        "Now you're, like, here." Now I'm enjoying life. Then I couldn't afford to really enjoy it. Like, I'm on a mission here. I'm in a war, or whatever.... I had in my head. Uh, but it's a huge part of my life. Without that, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you now. I wouldn't be, you know, wouldn't have met my wife. She's a competitor as well. There's so many things, so I knew I had to do it, and now it's obvious why. And I think, I mean, there's... I've had people coming up to me with tears in their eyes, many people saying, "Bro, you- I know you don't know me, but you saved my life." Uh, you know, "Just something you said, or you did, or inspire me," and this is like fucking, this is worth more than the Mr. Olympia trophy. So I did it for myself. It was a selfish pursuit. It's bodybuilding, it's all about you, yeah? But now it's changed into something else, where I can use my position, my influence, and at my age, my life experience, to help and inspire many people, and maybe that's the whole point of the thing-

    26. AHAndrew Huberman1:32:46

        Hmm

    27. DYDorian Yates1:32:46

        ... ultimately, you know?

    28. AHAndrew Huberman1:32:48

        There was a, there was a plan you weren't aware of.

    29. DYDorian Yates1:32:50

        Yeah.

    30. AHAndrew Huberman1:32:51

        Yeah.
19. 1:38:52 – 1:43:08

    Flexibility, Winning vs Loving the Process

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:38:52

       interesting because, uh, you know, we've created this little backdrop, this kind of, uh, ghost of Mike Mentzer.

    2. DYDorian Yates1:38:57

       Yeah.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:38:57

       And for those of you who don't know him, uh, he barked when he spoke, he was a real iconoclast, he carried this bitterness for never having, you know, become Mr. Olympia. And-

    4. DYDorian Yates1:39:04

       I think Mike was too rigid-

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:39:07

       Mm

    6. DYDorian Yates1:39:07

       ... in his thoughts.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:39:08

       Mm-hmm.

    8. DYDorian Yates1:39:09

       You gotta be a, a little bit flexible. Um, yes, uh, mostly he was right, but maybe for this guy is, uh... You know, you gotta be a, a little bit flexible. And, uh, I think he was a bit too extreme in the end, like training once every 10 or 12 days, and so on. But-

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:39:30

       And he became unhealthy, right? He smoked, he-

    10. DYDorian Yates1:39:32

        Yeah, this I-

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:39:32

        He was open about him-

    12. DYDorian Yates1:39:33

        This I didn't understand.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:39:34

        Yeah.

    14. DYDorian Yates1:39:34

        This-

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:39:34

        Amphetamine use, and this kind of thing.

    16. DYDorian Yates1:39:35

        I still don't understand it.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:39:36

        Yeah.

    18. DYDorian Yates1:39:37

        I still don't understand... I understand ex-bodybuilders or athletes that don't wanna, like, you know, maintain their peak. Of course, it's ridiculous, you can't as you get older. But I didn't understand somebody that was in health, fitness, bodybuilding, that suddenly didn't wanna exercise, and got overweight, and smoked cigarettes, and so on. I didn't really understand that. That was one thing I didn't get with Mike. He was very, like, pissed off about the Mr. Olympia, w- that Arnold won in 1980, and got disillusioned with the sport, and he, he carried it around with him. I mean, he... One of the first conversations we had, [chuckles] like, when we first met, uh, he told me Arnold is not gonna like me. And I said, "Well, not that I really care, but why do you think that?" And he's like, "Because you're better than him." "Well, well, it's, you know, it's debatable. But let's say if I was, why would Arnold give a fuck? I mean, he's making movies, 20 mil a movie. [chuckles] I wouldn't give a shit if I was him." He's like, "You don't understand Arnold." So, you know, he was carrying this still around with him, which, well, you know, it wasn't healthy, I guess.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:40:43

        I don't know, and I'm not a psychologist, but I'm gonna venture that he wanted, uh, to be a winner, the winner, more than he probably loved the fitness piece and the f- and the training piece.

    20. DYDorian Yates1:40:55

        Yeah.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:40:56

        And I say that because, uh, you know, it sounds like I'm name-dropping here, but I, I'm fortunate to be very good friends with the great Rick Rubin, right? And Rick has worked with so many amazing artists, and he'll tell me stories sometimes about people who really didn't make music or do comedy because they loved music and comedy-

    22. DYDorian Yates1:41:14

        Yeah

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:41:14

        ... they wanted to be loved.

    24. DYDorian Yates1:41:16

        Okay.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:41:17

        When they got maybe attacked about a song not being as good as their last song, it crushed them. And he would say, "Just go back and make music."

    26. DYDorian Yates1:41:24

        Yeah. Do what you want.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:41:26

        You... And, and this is one of the things that makes Rick so brilliant. And but then he eventually, he would share these stories, in private of course, that some people aren't doing the thing for the thing. It's about, they weren't loved as a kid, or they, or they need the adoration.

    28. DYDorian Yates1:41:40

        Yeah.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:41:41

        And so, it's not r- maybe Mike could, we're speculating here, but could smoke cigarettes and let himself be out of shape because it wasn't really about bodybuilding. He just maybe needed to be a champion so he could validate something. We don't know, right? Uh, um, but, and-

    30. DYDorian Yates1:41:54

        I always got the impression with Mike that it wasn't really anything to do with health. I mean, it's not, at competitive level, let's say, maybe-
20. 1:43:08 – 1:46:34

    Aging, Exercise & Posture

    1. DYDorian Yates1:43:08

       to try to over a little bit.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:43:08

       You look awesome in shape. You look lean and strong.

    3. DYDorian Yates1:43:09

       Yeah, I'm, I'm lean, I'm strong. I don't, uh, push too much with the weights. Uh-

    4. AHAndrew Huberman1:43:13

       And you've kept your height. You know, a lot of people who don't train-

    5. DYDorian Yates1:43:16

       It's interesting, man

    6. AHAndrew Huberman1:43:17

       ... start to shrink.

    7. DYDorian Yates1:43:17

       I didn't keep my height.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman1:43:18

       Really?

    9. DYDorian Yates1:43:19

       I got taller.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman1:43:20

        [laughs] Did you really?

    11. DYDorian Yates1:43:21

        No, I saw that I posted, uh, about a month ago, six weeks, on my page, just teasing people.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman1:43:25

        Uh-huh.

    13. DYDorian Yates1:43:26

        Because I went to get some orthotics in my shoes, you know?

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:43:29

        Yeah.

    15. DYDorian Yates1:43:29

        To balance, uh, out. And, uh, the guy's got the measuring thing, so I just stood on it, and it said, "You're 183." Like, 180... I've never been more than 180 before.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman1:43:39

        Metric system, folks.

    17. DYDorian Yates1:43:40

        Yeah.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman1:43:40

        Yeah.

    19. DYDorian Yates1:43:41

        Yeah, right?

    20. AHAndrew Huberman1:43:42

        Yeah.

    21. DYDorian Yates1:43:42

        It's, like, 6 foot, right? I was 10, 5'10" and a half, 5'11" maybe. So did I physically grow bone? No.

    22. AHAndrew Huberman1:43:49

        That's what I thought, 'cause I'm six, 6'1", I heard you're 5'10".

    23. DYDorian Yates1:43:51

        Yeah.

    24. AHAndrew Huberman1:43:52

        Walked in thinking maybe... People usually lose a little bit of height, unless they train real hard, and they make sure to take very care of themselves. And then I walk in, and you, yeah, you're about 6 feet.

    25. DYDorian Yates1:44:01

        Yeah.

    26. AHAndrew Huberman1:44:01

        Okay.

    27. DYDorian Yates1:44:01

        But the thing is-... why? Because I've been doing Pilates, and functional training, and resetting the shoulders back, my posture is much better.

    28. AHAndrew Huberman1:44:13

        Mm.

    29. DYDorian Yates1:44:14

        So I'm standing straighter, which gives me an extra inch, uh, of height. So [chuckles] I've actually got taller. No, I haven't taken huge amounts of growth hormone and suddenly grew [chuckles] when I was 60 years old. It's just my posture and the way I stand, there's less curvature of the shoulder-

    30. AHAndrew Huberman1:44:29

        Mm
21. 1:46:34 – 1:48:22

    Sponsor: Function

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:46:35

       I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function. Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health. This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more. They've also recently added tests for toxins, such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFAS, or forever chemicals. Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas. For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood. Function not only helped me detect that but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification. And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked. Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important. There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test. The problem is, blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated. In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost. It is very affordable. As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman. Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Podcast listeners. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.

22. 1:48:22 – 1:52:02

    Losing Muscle & Diet Change; Breathing; Health & Mind

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:48:22

       For people that are interested in longevity, who are maybe l- a little bit, quote, unquote, "lighter boned," do you think they should emphasize cardio more and strength less, or the opposite?

    2. DYDorian Yates1:48:30

       No.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:48:31

       Whereas you are able to get away with doing quite a lot of cardio, Pilates, and yoga, but you don't need much resistance training, and we don't talk about this anymore. It used to be endomorph, ectomorph, and mesomorph.

    4. DYDorian Yates1:48:41

       Yeah.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:48:41

       Nobody talks like that anymore.

    6. DYDorian Yates1:48:42

       I had excessive amounts of muscle mass-

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:48:44

       Mm-hmm

    8. DYDorian Yates1:48:44

       ... actually. Uh, I was, a few years ago, still at, like, 250, you know, just on TRT and some training, and I went for a checkup. My blood pressure was a bit high, and it just triggered something in me. Like, I've been eating still like a bodybuilder, you know, frequent meals, chicken, breast, and rice. I don't know, it's just habit, so I kept doing it. I said, "I'm gonna go on a lower protein diet, uh, more plant-based, and, uh, lose some weight," right? But which weight I'm gonna lose? I'm not, I'm not fat, so I guess I'm gonna lose muscle mass. But it was interesting, uh, exercise, in that I dedicated my whole life to [chuckles] earlier life to building muscle mass. Now I'm actively trying to lose it, uh, for health reasons, but also I wanted to check my ego, you know? I think everyone else was more concerned than me about, "Oh, he's looking skinny now," and everything. Well, yeah, I don't care. Uh, you know, I don't care. I'm just doing what I think is best for my health. I'm losing some weight, because I think, [inhales] uh, if you're carrying a lot of weight when you get older, even if it's muscle, I don't think it's ideal, right? So I brought my weight down from 250 to 230, and, uh-... at that point, I put more protein and fat. So right now, I eat probably twice a day, in between 12 and 10, and might have a shake or something like that. So it's more higher protein and fats, a bit less carbs, uh, intermittent fasting, [inhales] and I feel great on it. I go in the morning, get up, do my things. And speaking about breathing, I mean, I came a, a lot more conscious about that through doing yoga practices. At one point, I really got into yoga and the breathing, different breathing techniques or different thing- I mean, you can do breathing to, like, produce DMT, and, like, you can really shift your, yourself just with breathing. It's amazing what you can do. So I went through all that and became much more conscious about breathing and trying to breathe through the nose, where in the gym, you're [panting] you know, eh, naturally got your mouth open and just trying to gulp in as much oxygen as I can. So, uh, breathing's definitely important, and I try to- when I'm doing yoga, I try to [inhales] breathe through the nose and, uh, become more conscious about the breathing. And, uh, I feel like I, I can speak to my whole body. Like, anywhere I wanna go, speak to my cells, uh, contact my organs, and check in with them, and make sure everything, everything's all right. I had exterior muscle consciousness, but nothing else. Now, I'm whole body conscious, and, uh, health has a lot to do with the mind, maybe more than we even realize. Uh, I think unresolved traumas, uh, leads to a lot of disease, so it's good to explore yourself and your mind, and how you look at things, and maybe change the way you look at things, and don't carry this, this weight around. Um, I have a friend that practices different kinds of medicines, and, uh, he had three cancers, and he's convinced that it's, uh, trauma-based.

23. 1:52:02 – 2:01:20

    Psychedelics, DMT, Ayahuasca, Perspective & Connection

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:52:02

       Well, certainly there are data, and there are a lot of real-life examples, where it- when people hold in their pain, and in particular, shame-

    2. DYDorian Yates1:52:11

       Yeah

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:52:12

       ... it causes disease. Uh, we've had a couple guests that have talked about this. Um, but it's kind of interesting, the original naming of the Type A personality was all around people who were, um, prone to heart attack-

    4. DYDorian Yates1:52:25

       Yeah

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:52:25

       ... because they didn't actually let out what was going on for them. And it's been a ride for the psychology, science world to try and figure this out. I think we'd be remiss if we don't talk a little bit about psychedelics and your experience with those.

    6. DYDorian Yates1:52:40

       Yeah.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:52:40

       But I wanna preface that with saying that my understanding is that right now, you're not a psychonaut. But you-

    8. DYDorian Yates1:52:48

       No

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:52:48

       ... did explore, which I find really interesting, because people think if you start something, you gotta do it forever. Uh, with the exception of maybe fitness and sleep-

    10. DYDorian Yates1:52:56

        Yeah

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:52:56

        ... and, uh, all the, the basic health stuff, what's so striking is it seems like you're able to go into something deep, get the best of it, and then get out.

    12. DYDorian Yates1:53:04

        Yeah, that's what I did with psychedelics. I feel- I wouldn't say I'll never do psychedelics again-

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:53:09

        Sure

    14. DYDorian Yates1:53:09

        ... because I may be in a different space, and I may feel the need to do it. But I went through that whole experience, and it was amazing. I mean, it gives you a totally different perspective on life.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:53:19

        You said '97 was the last Olympia.

    16. DYDorian Yates1:53:21

        Yeah.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:53:22

        You realized you're done. '98 through 2000, you're kinda going through a reframe?

    18. DYDorian Yates1:53:26

        Yeah, a whole lot of things happened as well in my personal life. Um, my nephew passed away at 15 years old in my house, and there was no explanation.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:53:37

        Oh, man.

    20. DYDorian Yates1:53:38

        Uh, he was very close.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:53:39

        Oh, so sorry.

    22. DYDorian Yates1:53:40

        Um, my marriage was... Everything was falling apart. You know, everything was falling apart in my life, but maybe it had to, to get, uh, reorganized. And, uh, I think where I went through a period, like, I just wanna have fun here and just... You know? I don't wanna really go too deeply into stuff because it was... I kinda get into it, and it was too heavy, so I'm like, "I'm just gonna have fun." And, uh, later on, a friend of mine was like, "You should try DMT." He was over in California, and he had some pharma-grade stuff, and I read-

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:54:12

        Only, only in California. [chuckles]

    24. DYDorian Yates1:54:13

        Yeah, I read this book when I was living in Amsterdam for a couple of years.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:54:16

        Oh, man.

    26. DYDorian Yates1:54:16

        There was no internet, so I read this book, DMT: The Spirit Molecule.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:54:19

        Mm-hmm.

    28. DYDorian Yates1:54:20

        You can get that all about DMT. So I'd heard about it. I'm like, "Yeah, I heard about that stuff." Uh, so we got the powder, and I smoked it, and shoo, I saw the, uh, behind reality, if you like, the construction, the g- the numbers and the geometry, and everything's connected. Uh, and everything's one thing, and we're having an experience, and, uh, we can choose, you know, to experience good, bad, whatever in this, uh, in this reality, and it's a temporary experience, and everything is forever. There's no time, and all these things, woof, came in. Uh, but DMT is a very short experience, like 10 seconds or something. So then I got invited on this podcast in, uh, in England called London Real.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:55:13

        Yeah.

    30. DYDorian Yates1:55:14

        Yeah, and it was very early, small podcast at the time. They invited me down, I said, "It sounds interesting," 'cause I like to talk. I can talk about different subjects if you want, whatever. So we're back, you know, before we do the podcast, we're talking away, and I don't know, it came in the conversation. "Uh, yeah, DMT." "Oh yeah, I've done that." "What? You've done it?" "Oh, yeah, yeah." "Would you be willing to talk about it on the podcast?" I says, "London Real or London Bullshit? What's the name- [laughs]
24. 2:01:20 – 2:06:23

    Risks, Research & Psychedelics; Brain Plasticity, Perspective Change

    1. AHAndrew Huberman2:01:20

       I'm totally on board. Um, I will say, uh, I do think there are certain people with predisposition to psychosis that should be cautious about psychedelics.

    2. DYDorian Yates2:01:30

       Oh, the, the-

    3. AHAndrew Huberman2:01:31

       Yeah

    4. DYDorian Yates2:01:31

       ... the camp I went to-

    5. AHAndrew Huberman2:01:32

       Yeah

    6. DYDorian Yates2:01:32

       ... in Costa Rica is like, they do a full review. They've got doctors on board and everything like that.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman2:01:37

       Mm-hmm.

    8. DYDorian Yates2:01:37

       So they do-

    9. AHAndrew Huberman2:01:38

       Mm-hmm

    10. DYDorian Yates2:01:38

        ... uh, vet people before and get their medical history and all that stuff, so, uh, I'm sure there's some exceptions where maybe it might not be beneficial, but I'm not an expert on that. But if it's a real camp, and that is the thing, a lot of them are not, you know? Or they just get as many people in there to get as much money, and they don't get the attention and everything like that.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman2:01:59

        Mm-hmm.

    12. DYDorian Yates2:02:00

        So if you're gonna do it, I mean, do your, uh, bit of research on the who's doing it and how are they qualified and what the facility's like and everything like that.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman2:02:08

        Mm-hmm.

    14. DYDorian Yates2:02:09

        Uh, I mean, I've done it in Spain, where it's kind of Wild West. They don't really tell you [chuckles] too much, you know? Uh, but I can handle that. Not everyone else can, so better to go to a place where they do it really professionally.... and with a shaman, you know, a proper, like, a traditional, not a guy-- I mean, I could say I'm a shaman and put camps on if, uh, but I'm not, you know? I'm the- these guys, it's, uh, passed down through the family, and they do maybe a decade of training before they're going in there and actually administering the ceremonies, so I think that's important.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman2:02:39

        Yeah, I think the, the data on, um, psilocybin for depression, uh, MDMA, not recreationally, but therapeutically for PTSD, ibogaine for PTSD, and for alcohol and other u- uh, substance abuse disorders, is very intriguing. And I'm not trying to hedge here and play-

    16. DYDorian Yates2:02:58

        Yeah

    17. AHAndrew Huberman2:02:58

        ... you know, but I think it's very interesting. I think we're headed-- I think people forget. This is one of these things where I, I almost forgot to say this. Whether or not it's therapy, working out, a pill, um, or psychedelics, ultimately, what we're after is this thing of brain plasticity, right? I mean, the- they're all aimed at the same endpoint.

    18. DYDorian Yates2:03:18

        Yeah.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman2:03:19

        Um, but the psychedelics are particularly interesting because the experience of them, not just the effects they have long-term, but both the experience of the, being in the psychedelic journey, as well as the long-term outcomes, seem to create something that, done correctly, brings people more peace.

    20. DYDorian Yates2:03:38

        Well, there's a guy in England that's now funded and has been doing the experiments, and he got, like, brain activity-

    21. AHAndrew Huberman2:03:44

        Mm-hmm

    22. DYDorian Yates2:03:44

        ... before and afterwards. I don't know what basis it's on, but let's say their brain activity that they can see is, like, maybe 30% lit up, 100%.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman2:03:56

        Yeah, it's certainly-

    24. DYDorian Yates2:03:56

        So it's activating parts of your brain that's, uh-

    25. AHAndrew Huberman2:03:59

        Sure

    26. DYDorian Yates2:03:59

        ... kind of sleeping, I guess.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman2:04:00

        Yeah, it's revealing, um, a bunch of, uh, lateral connections in what we call the default mode network. It- basically, more brain areas are talking to one another-

    28. DYDorian Yates2:04:09

        Yeah

    29. AHAndrew Huberman2:04:09

        ... in the psychedelic state.

    30. DYDorian Yates2:04:09

        Which change your perspective-
25. 2:06:23 – 2:12:15

    Sunlight & Mood, Schizophrenia, Dopamine, Mitochondria

    1. AHAndrew Huberman2:06:23

       We mentioned schizophrenia a couple of minutes ago. Um, reminds me, there are these very interesting findings. You know, y- there are a few exceptions to what I'm about to say, but I, I know that your wife is from, uh, Brazil.

    2. DYDorian Yates2:06:35

       Yeah.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman2:06:35

       Um, and we were talking about the value of sunlight, you being from the UK.

    4. DYDorian Yates2:06:38

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman2:06:39

       Um, you know, you don't find schizophrenia near the equator.

    6. DYDorian Yates2:06:43

       Because of the light.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman2:06:44

       I'm not gonna say schizophrenia is one thing, and I'm not gonna say it's caused by one thing, but there's some very interesting hypotheses about, um, certain types of winter infections, uh, make people more prone to them. Now, why would those winter infections only occur, uh, closer to the poles? Um, it may be that, this is a theory, that some of the long-wavelength light from the sun, um, the reds and oranges and yellows, and so forth, um, provide a protective function on the mitochondria and at certain stages of pregnancy. Um, 'cause there is a genetic component to schizophrenia-

    8. DYDorian Yates2:07:19

       Yeah

    9. AHAndrew Huberman2:07:19

       ... but there's also an environmental component. Identical twins don't always both have it. Um, sunlight seems protective. The amount of sunlight seems protective i- in a, in a way that is not trivial, that statistically is, is very impressive. So, um, it's interesting, right? Sunlight-

    10. DYDorian Yates2:07:35

        I think our overall health, the sun is essential. I mean, uh, I've talked about it before to friends and everything. I was like... And, and I'm at- I was in the club, right? Isn't it a ridiculous joke how we've been told to be scared of the sun when it's the giver of all life on the planet, somehow it can be bad for us? That's just ridiculous, yeah. If you go in the sun and you start to get burnt, get out of the sun. [chuckles]

    11. AHAndrew Huberman2:08:03

        Or throw on a layer of clothing.

    12. DYDorian Yates2:08:05

        That's it. That's it.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman2:08:05

        Yeah, and put on a hat. Yeah.

    14. DYDorian Yates2:08:06

        Listen, man, I'm as white as they come, naturally, yeah? I'm like a bottle of milk, man. But I went to Spain, and my, I guess my nutrition improved, much better fruits and vegetables there, so that might be something. But I slowly introduced myself to the sun-

    15. SPSpeaker2:08:25

        ...And now I can stay out all day. I might get a bit reddish 'cause I'm pale skin, but I don't get burnt or nothing, man. I can stay in the sun all day. And yeah, I just feel much better in the sun. Everybody does. People come from England to live in Spain because of that fact. And, uh, if we look between the UK and Spain, uh, there's about a six, seven-year difference in the life expectancy. Yeah, maybe the food's a bit better, but the sun is the, is the key, I believe.

    16. SPSpeaker2:08:55

        I won't launch into a whole scientific lecture on this, but it's very interesting and not a coincidence at all that dopamine and the synthesis of dopamine in the body, it's L-tyrosine, but there's a, there's a enzyme called tyrosinase, and it's the rate-limiting enzyme for dopamine production. Dopamine makes you feel good-

    17. SPSpeaker2:09:12

        Yeah

    18. SPSpeaker2:09:12

        ... motivated, et cetera. It's correlated with the sex hormones, uh, all- we all, we know all this stuff. Certainly, you do. It's also responsible for pigmentation of the skin, which is why-

    19. SPSpeaker2:09:22

        Okay

    20. SPSpeaker2:09:22

        ... for instance, an Arctic fox, which is white in the winter-

    21. SPSpeaker2:09:26

        Yeah

    22. SPSpeaker2:09:26

        ... becomes brown in the, in the summer through the dopamine pathway. So the feeling good in the sun is not a trivial thing. It's through the dopamine pathway and, and, and the melanin pathway. The other thing that's really interesting is that there's been a study recently where they gave people a glucose tolerance test, how well they manage blood sugar, insulin, et cetera. And in sunlight, or even with some sunlight just landing on their back, their metabolism goes up by about, I believe it's, you know, twenty-nine percent, and their blood glucose regulation is far better. And it's because the sunlight actually gets through the body, charges the mitochondria, and-

    23. SPSpeaker2:10:04

        So it actually reaches the mitochondria in the cell?

    24. SPSpeaker2:10:06

        It, it actually will- the long wavelength light will go all the way through your body and charge your mitochondria on the way. And this is, this is not like, uh, hearsay.

    25. SPSpeaker2:10:14

        Yeah.

    26. SPSpeaker2:10:14

        This is documented in beautiful studies. Glenn Jeffrey at University College London, a f- uh, another formerly pasty, pale, uh, Brit-

    27. SPSpeaker2:10:22

        Yeah [chuckles]

    28. SPSpeaker2:10:22

        ... who I've known for many decades, came here, sat there and said, "The l- more time you get in the sun, the longer your life. The more time you get in the sun, the better your blood glucose regulation. The more time you get in the sun..." Uh, and on and on and on. And the opposite is also true. Too much time under just LED lights and not enough sunlight-

    29. SPSpeaker2:10:38

        Yeah

    30. SPSpeaker2:10:39

        ... is damaging to mitochondria, and it's a very big effect. I think this is going to be one of the biggest health issues.
26. 2:12:15 – 2:19:34

    Cannabis, Smoking & Health; Cancer; Breathwork

    1. SPSpeaker2:12:15

       Speaking of which, I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about cannabis because I think one of our early correspondences-

    2. SPSpeaker2:12:23

       Yeah, I was like, "Hey, man" [chuckles]

    3. SPSpeaker2:12:23

       ... I did an episode about cannabis, and I said, "Listen, I'm worried about psychotic risk," and, but I said, "Listen, there could be-

    4. SPSpeaker2:12:29

       Yeah

    5. SPSpeaker2:12:29

       ... medical uses." And I've, I've done a couple different episodes.

    6. SPSpeaker2:12:32

       Also had Peter Attia on here, right?

    7. SPSpeaker2:12:33

       I had Attia on, on-

    8. SPSpeaker2:12:34

       Yeah, I had him on my podcast-

    9. SPSpeaker2:12:35

       Yeah

    10. SPSpeaker2:12:35

        ... but we didn't, uh-

    11. SPSpeaker2:12:37

        You didn't touch on it?

    12. SPSpeaker2:12:37

        Broach the subject.

    13. SPSpeaker2:12:38

        Okay. No, I, I mean, I think that, I wanna be clear, my stance is one where I've seen people benefit. I've seen data that for people with a predisposition to psychosis, the high THC can be problematic. This is just what I've seen.

    14. SPSpeaker2:12:51

        Yeah.

    15. SPSpeaker2:12:52

        But you sent me a note saying that, um, [lips smack] first of all, that your experience with it has been good, so I wanna give you the opportunity to share that, and then some of the things that you speculate about, because I'm an open book.

    16. SPSpeaker2:13:04

        Well, to give you some background, yeah, I guess cannabis is a bit, like, cultural. Uh, in Birmingham, where I grew up, we have a lot of Jamaicans. So, I mean, Jamaicans, they smoke, uh, cannabis, they make tea. It's just a cultural thing. It's normal for them, right? Uh, so it was about, I had a couple of friends that their dads were Jamaican. So I was smoking it anyway, but I didn't-- wasn't smoking it because I thought there was any particular health benefits. I was just smoking it and drinking alcohol, like, hanging out. Uh, but my friends' dads, who were Jamaican, were like, "Oh, this is protects against this, and we drink tea for this, and the women take it for menstrual pain, PMR." So I kind of heard that, but I'm like, "Yeah, okay, whatever." Uh, [lips smack] and I would smoke occasionally when I was training. And when I went to live in Amsterdam for a little bit, as I said, I did a lot of reading, started reading about it. I started searching for studies, and, uh, I found there was massive, massive health benefits from THC and different cannabinoids. Uh, some of it really counterintuitive, I guess, for people. Um, you had Peter Attia on here, right?

    17. SPSpeaker2:14:30

        Mm-hmm.

    18. SPSpeaker2:14:30

        So you asked Peter, I think-

    19. DYDorian Yates2:14:33

        ... What about smoking cannabis? How does that affect your lungs? And I think he was pretty much, "Uh, it's probably like the same as nicotine." Uh, tobacco, right? I think that's what he said. Well, he's probably not aware of a 25-year-long, uh, massive study that was done at UCLA. Dr. Donald Taskin, I think his name is. So they put these peoples into, into groups: cigarette smokers, cannabis smokers, and control group that didn't smoke anything, uh. Uh, so after 25 years, what did they find? Cigarette group, w- we already know, right? Loss of lung function, increased cancers, blah, blah, blah, blah, yeah? In the cannabis group, af- and heavy, daily smoking, 25 years. I'll agree because I've been heavily smoking every day for 30 years, right? So what was the effect on the lungs? Some negative, yes, because of the heat and the tar and everything like that. It could irritate the airways. It reduced somewhat the antioxidant layer on your airways. So statistically, you would be more susceptible to an infection, maybe bronchitis or something like that, although of all my friends, I don't know anyone that got it. But statistically, you would be more likely to get it. Lung function, interesting, 25 years of cannabis smoking compared to the non-smokers, there was a slight increase in lung capacity in the cannabis smokers.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman2:16:10

        Hmm. I'll have to check out this study.

    21. DYDorian Yates2:16:12

        Yeah.

    22. AHAndrew Huberman2:16:12

        Yep.

    23. DYDorian Yates2:16:12

        No cancers. Other groups got cancers, but this one don't after 25 years. So that's the lung cancer. So maybe Peter was not privy to this information. [chuckles]

    24. AHAndrew Huberman2:16:22

        Well, I'll check out the study.

    25. DYDorian Yates2:16:23

        Yeah.

    26. AHAndrew Huberman2:16:23

        I'm not familiar with it, but I appreciate you raising it. I wonder, um, if it's the THC and whether or not edible forms of THC would have the same effect, or whether or not-

    27. DYDorian Yates2:16:33

        Absolutely

    28. AHAndrew Huberman2:16:33

        ... it's the smoking of cannabis. So if it's the THC-

    29. DYDorian Yates2:16:35

        Do you know, you know Rick Simpson?

    30. AHAndrew Huberman2:16:37

        I know of Rick Simpson.
27. 2:19:34 – 2:25:22

    Cannabis & Motivation, Individual Variation, THC Levels

    1. AHAndrew Huberman2:19:34

       I do have one question that I think is g- in the back of many people's minds or should be. Um, you were clearly, and still are, a very driven guy, although now you have-

    2. DYDorian Yates2:19:42

       Yeah

    3. AHAndrew Huberman2:19:42

       ... this kind of, uh, additional-

    4. DYDorian Yates2:19:44

       Imbalance.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman2:19:44

       Additional-

    6. DYDorian Yates2:19:45

       I'm trying to balance now.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman2:19:45

       Yeah, you have an additional-

    8. DYDorian Yates2:19:46

       Trying to balance.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman2:19:46

       You have a, you have an on/off switch right now.

    10. DYDorian Yates2:19:48

        Yeah, yeah.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman2:19:48

        Um, maybe it was all gas pedal before. Um, many people that I know who smoked a lot of weed-

    12. DYDorian Yates2:19:55

        Yeah

    13. AHAndrew Huberman2:19:55

        ... some of them became very amotivated. They like-

    14. DYDorian Yates2:20:01

        I'll do it tomorrow.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman2:20:03

        Yeah, it-

    16. DYDorian Yates2:20:03

        [chuckles]

    17. AHAndrew Huberman2:20:03

        Yeah, exactly. So you're, you are a unique specimen in the sense that-

    18. DYDorian Yates2:20:06

        Yes

    19. AHAndrew Huberman2:20:06

        ... like, you're super driven, right? And so I had this, you know, uh, dime store psychologist theory for a long time with my friends, which was, "Hey, if you're really driven, uh, maybe you should do some things to relax."

    20. DYDorian Yates2:20:17

        Yeah.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman2:20:17

        "Maybe cannabis is right for you, a little bit. But if you're lazy, I don't know if that's the right drug for you."

    22. DYDorian Yates2:20:23

        Well, if you're lazy, you're lazy, right? [chuckles] Maybe it just amplifies it.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman2:20:28

        Yeah.

    24. DYDorian Yates2:20:28

        Um, you know, there's a test you can do now. I don't know if it's here, but in, I did it in Spain. So we have an endocannabinoid system-

    25. AHAndrew Huberman2:20:37

        Mm-hmm

    26. DYDorian Yates2:20:37

        ... right?

    27. AHAndrew Huberman2:20:37

        Mm-hmm.

    28. DYDorian Yates2:20:38

        Inside your body.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman2:20:39

        Mm-hmm.

    30. DYDorian Yates2:20:39

        But it varies.... Mm-hmm. So there's a swab you can do, and it gives you a report on your endocannabinoid system, right? And, uh, there was- one of them is a likelihood of negative effects from one to 10. So the lady did my thing, and I was just kidding around with her. I said, "What does it say there? Do I need THC for life?" Just messing about. She said, "Well, you're not far off." She said, "Look at this. The likelihood of you having negative effects from cannabis, you're on one out of 10." So, uh, for instance, my wife, we've been married, uh, 12, 13 years now. Sorry, gal, if I made a mistake. [laughs] She don't go any- anywhere near it. She feels totally paranoid if she has a little bit of cannabis. So I'm well aware of the, you know, different endocannabinoid systems maybe or different personalities. So for some people, they will get a lot of negative effects. Uh, so you have to find out for yourself. But it's interesting that they got this test now that actually proves that your endocannabinoid system might be slightly different from mine. So I might benefit more from THC. Maybe you benefit more from CBD or, uh, a balance. So it's interesting now that we're-
28. 2:25:22 – 2:28:53

    Plant Medicine, Kratom, Natural Plants vs Extracts

    1. AHAndrew Huberman2:25:22

       guest on here named Chris McCurdy. He's a, a scientist out in Florida, and, um, he taught me three things I think that you'll find interesting, um, in light of what we're talking about. One, that every pharmaceutical company has what are called bioprospectors that send people quietly-

    2. DYDorian Yates2:25:37

       Yeah

    3. AHAndrew Huberman2:25:38

       ... to the jungle, to other places, and not just the jungle, to find plants that are used locally and then to find specific molecules and develop highly potent extracts to grab-

    4. DYDorian Yates2:25:48

       Yes

    5. AHAndrew Huberman2:25:48

       ... just one effect. The second thing is we were talking about kratom. I think the proper pronunciation is kratom, but-

    6. DYDorian Yates2:25:54

       Yes

    7. AHAndrew Huberman2:25:55

       ... but-- And he was talking about how the kratom plant, and even the cocoa plant, um, chewing on the leaves is known to give people a kind of balanced, in both cases, kind of stimulant, uh, relaxation effect.

    8. DYDorian Yates2:26:06

       Yeah. I did that in Peru when we went to Machu Picchu.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman2:26:09

       Interesting.

    10. DYDorian Yates2:26:09

        Eh, I feel like maybe I had a coffee or something.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman2:26:12

        Okay.

    12. DYDorian Yates2:26:12

        That's about it.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman2:26:13

        Well, it's interesting because what happens is people take the plant, find the molecule that produces, like, the real dopamine-

    14. DYDorian Yates2:26:20

        Yeah

    15. AHAndrew Huberman2:26:21

        ... high in the case of cocaine-

    16. DYDorian Yates2:26:22

        Yeah

    17. AHAndrew Huberman2:26:23

        ... or kratom, and they then develop kratom isolates or kratom-like synthetics or THC-like synthetics. And so what the- especially in the United States, there's this, there's this tendency to take a plant which is very balanced in its chemistry-

    18. DYDorian Yates2:26:38

        Yeah

    19. AHAndrew Huberman2:26:38

        ... and then to extract the thing that gives you an amplified effect, which is most habit-forming and addictive-

    20. DYDorian Yates2:26:45

        Also, in the-

    21. AHAndrew Huberman2:26:45

        ... and then drive that to market, but then we demonize the whole plant. As, uh-

    22. DYDorian Yates2:26:48

        But in its natural form-

    23. AHAndrew Huberman2:26:50

        Mm-hmm

    24. DYDorian Yates2:26:50

        ... you can't patent it.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman2:26:52

        Right.

    26. DYDorian Yates2:26:52

        So you can't make a lot of money.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman2:26:53

        Right.

    28. DYDorian Yates2:26:53

        So you need to-... change it a little bit or, or extract something out of there. Cannabis grows from the ground. Yes, it's stronger than it used to be back in the '60s, 'cause the, the growers have bred it like that. But it's n- it's not synthetic, it's just a plant crossed with a plant. Like, you know, it's a, it's a natural process. That's why, uh, farmers can't make money from it. They have to change it from its natural form, balance, but when they do that, it doesn't work so well.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman2:27:21

        Well, the internet has caused a great many problems, instant gratification, this kind of thing, but I also think it's solved a great number of problems, and one of the things that it's solved is that the discussions about plants versus isolates-

    30. DYDorian Yates2:27:34

        Yeah
29. 2:28:53 – 2:33:52

    Training for Women, Losing Fat & Resistance Training; Resilience

    1. AHAndrew Huberman2:28:53

       more questions. One is about your wife vis-à-vis training for women. Early on, we were talking about training-

    2. DYDorian Yates2:28:59

       Yeah

    3. AHAndrew Huberman2:28:59

       ... and, um, I'll point people to some other references that you've put out there about training, but I, you made it very clear kind of what the, the beginner versus more advanced stuff is. I wanna make sure that we touch on, um, she's quite the athlete. Um, do you think women who want to get stronger, maybe just a bit more size here and there, but not overall size, do you think they should train differently? And if so, how?

    4. DYDorian Yates2:29:22

       Differently from men?

    5. AHAndrew Huberman2:29:23

       Yes.

    6. DYDorian Yates2:29:24

       I don't think so. I mean, they're the same muscles in the same place. [chuckles] Uh, same rules apply. The muscles are not gonna grow unless you overload them.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman2:29:32

       Mm-hmm.

    8. DYDorian Yates2:29:32

       It's just gonna be limited by the fact that you're female and you don't produce a lot of testosterone, which is- makes it much more difficult to build muscle. So we used to have this nonsense word, I say it's a nonsense word. "No, I don't want to get bigger, I want to get toned." "All right, but there is no such thing as toned. What you mean is you wanna look firmer, right?" Yes, it's called building muscle and losing body fat. So your arms might be the same size, but it's a different composition now. It looks leaner, it looks sh- more shapely. It's the same thing. It's bodybuilding. You're building muscle and losing body fat. That's the only way you can change your shape, yeah? You can do yoga, you can do pilate, all these things. It's great for your mobility, your internal musculature, but the only way to really change your physical appearance is resistance training, weight training, whatever you wanna call it. Maybe they don't wanna call it bodybuilding. "Oh, no, resistance training, that sounds better," but it's the same bloody thing, you know? You need to build muscle and lose body fat, then you'll look leaner. And don't worry about building too much muscle, unless you're a genetic outlier that's genetically very muscular and maybe higher testosterone levels. The girls that you see in competition, they're all using steroids. All of them, even the bikini competitors. They had this bikini class for women they introduced years ago, 'cause the idea is that women are getting too big now in the other classes, so we'll make this bikini class, which is a fit, you know, young girl that's been training a little bit, bikini on the beach. They started doing juice and got bigger. I'm like, "What are they gonna do next? Bikini light?" [chuckles] Unfortunately, that's what... You know, when it gets competitive, people start using products. So all those girls you see doing competitions, they're all using steroids, so you're not gonna get like that by mistake. Uh, you need to build some muscle mass, you change your appearance and be healthier. Resistance training, just the same as a man. Maybe you wanna do extra work on your glutes or something, 'cause that's a big thing for women. Maybe you do a bit, another exercise there that the man doesn't do, but the same thing applies, right? Stress, adaptation, recovery, adaptation. It's the same principle. There's not voodoo, there's no, uh... You know, there, there's a whole industry now, right, online, and simple, easy facts don't sound sexy. So the- everybody tries to make everything very complicated in order to make the client perceive more value. Uh, "Oh, you gotta change the r-," I, I was talking to a guy once who's a top trainer. I said, "Why have you gotta change your client's routine every random four weeks, six weeks, whatever it is you do?" I said, "It's nonsense. People should do the same exercises that work, right? Don't keep changing it around. You can't even track it." "Yeah, I know, but they want it. They like to change it around." I'm like, "Uh, maybe it's a good business strategy," but I'm like, "Just tell people the truth, and it is what it is."

    9. AHAndrew Huberman2:32:41

       It's much harder to package and sell drive.

    10. DYDorian Yates2:32:44

        Yeah, it's, uh, hard work, [chuckles] sweat, push yourself, but there's a beauty in that. There's a beauty in pushing yourself, and, you know, once you overcome something-... then you feel more confident and stronger to overcome something again, right? And this bleeds into everything, right? Into your life. Like, the gym is a microcosm of your life, right? If you're gonna pussy about in a gym and not push yourself, uh, when it gets tough, you're gonna, "Oh, no. Screw that, put it down," probably gonna do the same thing in life when things come along that are tough, you know? So it's not just a physical thing, it's the, it's the mental thing that controls everything. If you become a more resilient, more confident, stronger person, that goes into everything in your life. So there's more to bodybuilding than big muscles and competitions.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman2:33:42

        And iron your shirts.

    12. DYDorian Yates2:33:43

        Yeah, iron your shirts, lower your cortisol.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman2:33:45

        Yeah, I like that.

    14. DYDorian Yates2:33:46

        I didn't even know why I was doing it. I was just doing it. [laughs]

    15. AHAndrew Huberman2:33:47

        Yeah, it's so cool. I'm, I'm imagining that now. I'm gonna start ironing my own shirts.

    16. DYDorian Yates2:33:50

        [laughs]

    17. AHAndrew Huberman2:33:51

        Um,

30. 2:33:52 – 2:44:40

    DY Nutrition, Supplements; Life Purpose & Consciousness

    1. AHAndrew Huberman2:33:52

       tell me about DY Nutrition. I, um, uh, I'm not getting paid to ask this, I'm just very curious.

    2. DYDorian Yates2:33:57

       Yeah.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman2:33:57

       Uh, you know, w- where is it? What is it?

    4. DYDorian Yates2:34:01

       When I was bodybuilding, I was competing. Uh, I was contracted to work with a Weider company. You know, be their guy in the magazines and hold the product and everything. But I was interested, you know, in, in supplements. I was always reading nutrition, supplements, anything to do with my craft. And I spoke to Joe Weider, and I said, "Listen, can I work with the guys and, uh," you know... "No, no, no, just be the guy." So I was interested in getting involved then because I thought, the Weider supplements, it, it definitely could be better, right? But he didn't want me involved in that. So through various businesses over the years, I built DY Nutrition, which is my own brand. I was just doing it myself, me and a, a partner, and doing it ourselves. And over the years then I found, uh, some good partners, and we've got to the point now where we have our own pharmaceutical facility in Europe. And, uh, we've been hitting the bodybuilding market all over Europe and Middle East, and, uh, now we're shifting... We're still gonna maintain that, but we're shifting into health, wellness, all the things that we're talking about, and, uh, uh, making some real kickass product for that market as well. So there's almost, like, two Dorians: Dorian the bodybuilder, and Dorian now, who's in his 60s and being concerned about my own health, and longevity, and quality of life, and what supplements can you take to help in that area. So we're developing that, a whole kinda new area, uh, that I'm really interested and really involved in the development of the products and everything like that. And we are, after many, many years of demand, coming to the US pretty soon. So that's one of the reasons I'm over here, uh, meeting with some people and everything. So look out for us, we'll be, uh, we'll be in the US soon as well.

Episode duration: 2:47:23