Dr. Paul Conti: How to Build and Maintain Healthy Relationships | Huberman Lab Guest Series

1. 0:00 – 2:04

   Build Healthy Relationships

   1. AHAndrew Huberman0:00

      (rock music) Welcome to the Huberman Lab Guest Series, where I and an expert guest discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. Today marks the third episode in our four-episode series about mental health with Dr. Paul Conti. Today's episode deals with the topic of healthy relationships, how to define what a healthy relationship is, and how to achieve healthy relationships of all kinds, including romantic relationships, interpersonal relationships at work, friendships, with family, and of course, with one's self. This episode builds on the framework of the psychology of self and mental health that was established in the first and second episodes of this series. However, even if you didn't listen to the first or second episode in this series, today's episode will still contain a lot of information and protocols that you will find valuable for improving your relationships. That said, if you have the opportunity to listen to the first and second episodes in this series, I think you'll find those to be tremendously beneficial at any point. During today's episode, Dr. Conti discusses what makes for a successful relationship of any kind, as well as tools to improve those relationships. He discusses various types of bonds, including healthy bonds and trauma bonds, not just in the context of romantic relationship, but in the context of all types of relationships. We also discuss different challenges that people face in relationships, including abusive relationships, and we discuss the role of power dynamics, anxiety, and boundaries in relationships, both from the perspective of unhealthy relationships, but more importantly, from the understanding and protocols to cultivate healthy relationships. While there is an abundance of opinions and information out there on the internet these days about relationships, both healthy and unhealthy, today's discussion approaches the topic of relationships through an entirely different lens, which is the lens of the self in terms of one's conscious and subconscious mind and how multiple conscious and subconscious minds, through different individuals, interact with one another in ways that we can see and ways that we can't see, and all of that framed within the actionable steps that any of us can take to improve our relationship to ourself and to others.

2. 2:04 – 5:01

   Sponsors: BetterHelp & Waking Up

   1. AHAndrew Huberman2:04

      Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is BetterHelp. BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out all online. Now, I've been doing therapy for more than 30 years, and while I confess that initially I was forced to do that therapy as a condition for being let back into high school, over time, I learned that therapy is a tremendously valuable practice. In fact, I consider doing regular weekly therapy as just as important as doing regular physical exercise in order to improve one's health. The beauty of BetterHelp is that it makes it extremely easy to find a therapist that's excellent for you, and we can define an excellent therapist as somebody who's going to give you a lot of support, but in an objective way, as well as somebody with whom you can have excellent rapport and that can help you arrive at positively transformative insights that you wouldn't have otherwise had, and with BetterHelp, they make it convenient so that it's matched to your schedule and the other aspects of your life. If you'd like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month. Again, that's betterhelp, H-E-L-P,.com/huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by Waking Up. Waking Up is a meditation app that offers dozens of guided meditation sessions, mindfulness trainings, yoga nidra sessions, and more. By now, there's an abundance of data showing that even short daily meditations can greatly improve our mood, reduce anxiety, improve our ability to focus, and can improve our memory. And while there are many different forms of meditation, most people find it difficult to find and stick to a meditation practice in a way that is most beneficial for them. The Waking Up app makes it extremely easy to learn how to meditate and to carry out your daily meditation practice in a way that's going to be most effective and efficient for you. It includes a variety of different types of meditations of different duration, as well as things like yoga nidra, which place the brain and body into a sort of pseudo sleep that allows you to emerge feeling incredibly mentally refreshed. In fact, the science around yoga nidra is really impressive, showing that after a yoga nidra session, levels of dopamine in certain areas of the brain are enhanced by up to 60%, which places the brain and body into a state of enhanced readiness for mental work and for physical work. Another thing I really like about the Waking Up app is that it provides a 30-day introduction course. So for those of you that have not meditated before or are getting back to a meditation practice, that's fantastic. Or if you're somebody who's already a skilled and regular meditator, Waking Up has more advanced meditations and yoga nidra sessions for you as well. If you'd like to try the Waking Up app, you can go to wakingup.com/huberman and access a free 30-day trial. Again, that's wakingup.com/huberman. And now for my discussion about mental health with Dr. Paul Conti.

3. 5:01 – 10:51

   Healthiest Self in Relationships

   1. AHAndrew Huberman5:02

      Dr. Conti, welcome back.

   2. PCDr. Paul Conti5:03

      Thank you. Happy to be here.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman5:05

      Today, we're going to discuss relationships, and that will often focus on romantic relationships, but also relationships between friends, between family members, and inevitably, the relationship to self-

   4. PCDr. Paul Conti5:19

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman5:19

      ... which is what we really focused on in episodes one and two of this series, episode one being, um, all the things that go into a healthy self and how to understand what is unhealthy and healthy in all of us and make adjustments-

   6. PCDr. Paul Conti5:32

      Mm-hmm.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman5:32

      ... to the unhealthy aspects of our unconscious and conscious through really specific proactive behaviors and patterns of thought, so really a roadmap to these ideals that we call mental health and understanding of the self. Today, we want to talk about relationships from the perspective of, of course, how people relate. But I have a feeling it's going to have something to do with, or perhaps almost everything to do with, our relationship to understanding ourselves first.

   8. PCDr. Paul Conti6:02

      Yes, yes.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman6:03

      So just to make sure that we're all on the same page, regardless of whether or not people have seen episodes one and two, and certainly people...... do not need to have seen or listened to episodes one and two of this series in order to understand today's discussion. Could you please tell us, what is a healthy person? And how can we ask ourselves the sorts of questions that allow us to determine whether or not we are healthy, and where to look in terms of making adjustments if we want to be healthier than we already are? Which I have to believe almost everybody, if not everybody, certainly wants to be the healthiest and best expression of themselves so that they can do the most for themselves and for others in the world.

   10. PCDr. Paul Conti6:42

       So, the, the linchpin of it all, right, is the agency and gratitude as verbs, right? That's the top of the mountain, right? There's a lot of climbing we do to get to the top of the mountain. Once we're over the top of the mountain, then things are in a better place. And even though they're two words, right? Agency is of course a word, gratitude is a word, but it doesn't mean that they are separate concepts. Approaching the world through the lens of agency and gratitude, thought of as one thing because they come together, and they come together as verbs, like, that's what we're aiming for, right? Because that's the thing that we can work towards, right? If you think about what comes underneath of that, right? It takes us back to the, the two pillars and the, the ten cupboards, right? And if we're looking in there enough, we're, we're minding, like, "What is in my unconscious mind I might not be aware of? Let me generate some curiosity about my defense mechanisms and my character structure, and think about what's salient inside of me." Like, if we're doing all of that, then what we're, we're doing, we're building empowerment, we're building humility, and then ultimately the expression of all of that is the agency and gratitude. And it's something that we can't have enough of. Like I say, what's the best amount of that? The most that's possible, right? Because we're going to engage in the world in the healthiest way, because agency and gratitude doesn't mean, like, we're happy about everything, right? If there's something negative and we can change that, then we don't feel happy about that. We, we, the sense of gratitude in me makes me more likely to feel that I can change that, right? Or to take the chance of trying to change that, and then the agency part of that concept can come more to the fore and I can make the change. So it's not about bliss, right? It's not about forgiving self and others for all sorts of things, and not working to make better. It's about being in the world and being as aware as I can possibly be, including being aware that there are things I'm not aware of, right? So sort of having a healthy respect and an orientation to the world that values truth and values understanding and exploration. If we do all of that, then we reach the top of the mountain through the agency and gratitude. And then what builds upon that, or what comes from that, is the, the peace, the contentment, the delight, the generative drive being strengthened. Like, that all comes together, and then the aggressive, or we say aggressive 'cause that's the traditional term, but the aggressive or the assertive, right? The assertiveness or assertion drive. However, we, what- whatever word we want to put to that, that drive exists in us in a way that subserves the generative drive. The same thing with the pleasure drive in us. It exists in us, but it's subserving the generative drive. And then all those good things come together, and they come together to help us be as healthy as we can, and to stay healthy, right? Including when tribulation or difficulties come our way so that we stay as best we can in the agency and gratitude as verbs. And again, there's nothing theoretical about this. Like, it's a way to live, and, and there are a lot of people who live some of their lives or parts of their lives through that, right? And we can aspire to it, and we can work towards it, and if we're the best that we can be, then we're gonna be, in our relationships, the best we can be. Like, think about it, like, you and I have a relationship. We know each other. We're working together. If I can bring my best self to you, to thinking about you, to understanding you, if I can bring the agency and the gratitude, then I'm gonna do right by you. I'm gonna mentalize this idea of thinking about what's going on inside of you. Like, I'm gonna bring the best of all of that, and then because we have a relationship, there's also an us. Like, there's a me, there's a you, there's something that happens between us. That's the relationship. That's the us. And I will also bring my best self to that thing that is no longer just me or just you, but that is an us, and that applies to all relationships, right? You can apply that to seeking health in every single relationship in our lives.

4. 10:51 – 15:44

   Structure & Function of Self

   1. PCDr. Paul Conti10:51

   2. AHAndrew Huberman10:51

      What you're saying really speaks to the importance of people taking a real look at themselves, you know, which is not necessarily an inventory of self in the typical sense that we're used to hearing it, but rather through this lens or map of the self that was spelled out in episodes one and two. And again, for those that are just joining the series now, um, the map, as we're referring to it, is available as a downloadable PDF, um, in the show note captions. If people want to get that, it's completely zero cost. You can just go there and access it, or just view it on a screen, print it out, whatever, whatever you like. You certainly don't need to do that, because here again we're talking about the core elements of that map, which, if I understand correctly, arrive eventually at a set of verb states that we're calling agency and gratitude. Those are not separate, as you pointed out. They work together.

   3. PCDr. Paul Conti11:46

      Y- you described it as a... on top of the geyser, right?

   4. AHAndrew Huberman11:48

      Mm-hmm.

   5. PCDr. Paul Conti11:48

      And I- I really like that. Like, there's a lot of things going on, but then it all uplifts to something, right? And if we're doing it in the right way, in the, in a diligent way, then it is like a geyser, and what it's lifting up on top of it is the agency and gratitude. I- I love, y- you put those words to it, and I think it captures it really profoundly.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman12:08

      Well, the, the stuff that geysers up perhaps deserves a bit of our attention, um, just for a few moments. Um, y- you describe these two pillars that g-... I described as geysering up into agency and gratitude in the, in the best circumstances. But the best circumstances, we want to remind ourselves and everybody, are attainable by looking at what's in those pillars. Um, those two pillars are the structure of self, so really understanding something about the structure of self, so that includes some understanding of the unconscious mind, some understanding of the conscious mind, defense mechanisms, character structure, and self. That was all reviewed and described in episodes one and two. As well as the functions of self, which are more of the verb states, the expressions of the structure of self. Self-awareness being the first of those. Defense mechanisms in action, and here, um, I'd be remiss if I didn't tell myself and everybody else again that defense mechanisms are not always bad. There can be healthy defense mechanisms.

   7. PCDr. Paul Conti13:09

      Absolutely.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman13:10

      They can protect us in very valuable ways. And then this notion of salience, what we pay attention to, you know, what sorts of scripts are going on in our head about ourselves and others. What are we paying attention to, how are we interpreting those in our head and to others, and then most importantly perhaps to ourselves? And then our actual behaviors, like what are we doing from the time we wake up until the time we go to sleep at night? And then our strivings, our sense of hopefulness, or perhaps lack of strivings! And there I'm reminded also that nobody does all of these things perfectly all the time. We all have elements within us that perhaps are not serving to geyser up into agency and gratitude as well as they could, but that all of us have the capacity to look at these two pillars and these, uh, 10 things that were just listed off, as you described them as cupboards that we look into and examine and think about, and that if we can do that with a skilled clinician like yourself or, uh, another psychiatrist or psychologist, terrific. But even if we don't have access to that, that we can examine within us what is and is not serving to geyser up into agency and gratitude.

   9. PCDr. Paul Conti14:20

      Right, right. We can bring any issue of self to those two pillars and the 10 cupboards within them. Any issue of self. Why? Because that's what it is, right? In the sense that, like, it is, is the us, what's inside of me. I have an unconscious mind, I have a conscious mind, I have a defensive structure, I have a character structure, I have a self, right? Like, that's what it is, right? And all the functions that you mentioned, they're all going on w- within that structure of self. They're manifesting themselves. Like, that's what it is when we're being, right? In the active way, uh, o- of the verb being, right? That's what it is, which is why we can bring to it any issue of self, even though of course there's tremendous complexity there. You know, the million things that go on in a second, you know, underneath the surface in the unconscious mind and our defensive structures and how to see them. But, like, we're human beings. We're, we're complicated, right? Like, that's okay, because we have methods of understanding, we have methods of inquiry, and we can use those methods to make things better, and that's how we make the geyser as strong as it can be. We're like, maybe some, maybe some, some of the water's running countercurrent in the, in the... Okay, well, let's try and have things go all in the same direction, but we don't need things to be perfect for, for the geyser to spring up and the agency and gratitude to then be uplifted upon it.

5. 15:44 – 22:48

   Relationships, Levels of Emergence

   1. AHAndrew Huberman15:44

      So everybody has one of these maps, as I understand it.

   2. PCDr. Paul Conti15:47

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman15:48

      And therefore, any time we're talking about relationships, romantic relationships or otherwise, we're talking about the intersection or overlap of those maps in some way. Maybe even the synergy and the outgrowth of those maps becomes its own map. I think we'll get to this-

   4. PCDr. Paul Conti16:02

      Right.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman16:02

      ... a little bit later.

   6. PCDr. Paul Conti16:03

      Yes.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman16:05

      When I and most people hear the word relationships, in particular romantic relationships, uh, I make a couple of automatic assumptions, Uh, first of all, uh, I have to assume that people are either in a relationship or out of a relationship. There's probably a third category out there (laughs) of plurals and other things, but we'll keep it relatively simple. And most people, I assume, when they search for or enter, or entered a relationship, they thought about, like, whether or not they had resonance with the person, whether or not, you know, there was a, uh, intellectual or mutual interest resonance or a, a physical resonance, um, you know, maybe something about family history, common goals, et cetera. Um, that's typically what people think about.

   8. PCDr. Paul Conti16:53

      Mm-hmm.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman16:53

      And then, uh, perhaps if people have a bit more of a psychological understanding or they're, uh, reading some, you know, pop psychology books these days, you know, some of which are, are, are pretty good, um, they might understand something about themselves or the other person being a bit more anxious or a bit more relaxed, so you'll hear things like anxious-attached, secure-attached, things of that, of that sort. If we could just step back from all of that for a moment and examine it through the lens of the maps, as you're describing them, which exist in all of us, and that really are the maps to being the best version of ourselves, if we look at relationships in terms of lists of, you know, where, where people went to school, if they went to school, you know, are their parents married or divorced, you know, do they have trauma that they're aware of or not aware of, these kinds of things, I guess we could call those, uh... And here I'm, I'm borrowing language that you used earlier, uh, off camera, so I want to acknowledge that. Um, you know, points of compatibility. Like, like I think that seems like a reasonable place to start, right? Uh, do people want the same thing? So if you, if you could, uh, could you talk a little bit about points of compatibility in a relationship and how those show up, um, for better or for worse when you encounter people in a clinical setting? You know, when you see a rela- somebody who's in a relationship that's really working for them and is healthy versus if they're in a relationship where it's really unhealthy, um, presumably there's some knowledge about points of compatibility, but I'm guessing that's not always intuitive.

   10. PCDr. Paul Conti18:20

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. I, I think the place we start there i- is acknowledging what we can know and what we can't know, right? So this idea that there are levels of emergence, where, where things at a lower level come together and create something that's new, w- we see this throughout science from subatomic particles all the way through to culture, right? So someone could know, theoretically, like, lots and lots and lots about you, and lots and lots and lots about me. But they don't know about us, right? Like, they don't know how we interact. They don't know if we have shared interests, what we talk about, right? They, they don't know that. No one knows that. Like, we don't know that about the combination of people. We can't know it in advance. But we, we often believe that we can, which then leads to a, a lot of false metrics of trying to figure things out. So when we're looking for compatibility, the thought is very basic, tangible things, like r- ro- in romance, for example, if there's someone who absolutely wants to have a family and there's someone who absolutely does not want to have a family, okay, th- that would be a reason for those two people to not choose one another (laughs) , right? Um, so there are, there are these factors but, but the factors are all, in a sense, very evident and very concrete, right? If we go a- if we go beyond that, we say, "Okay, we can see the obvious," right, then what we're looking for is really a compatibility of generative drives, right? And then that, it tells you, can these people then get along? Like, you know, maybe one of them is from one side of the world and the other's from the other side of the world, or one's an accountant and the other is a musician, and, you know, i- i- it doesn't mean that, oh, like, they're built not to get along or that if they're doing the same thing they're built to get along, or if they're, they went to college in the same place or they went to college versus not going to college, right? There's so much there that we, we try to build a story on, and then what we do is we miss the forest for the trees, right? And the trees, I think, are the factors that don't matter. So again, let's think about the factors that do matter. A person wants to have a family, other person doesn't. That's relevant. But the, the trees that mislead us might be, do they have the same level of education? Uh, do they have the same family structure growing up? Are parents still together? Uh, what do they enjoy? Are they creative or scientific or whatever, or creatively scientific, right? We, we could look at all of that. But I think then we're, we're making a bunch of trees that mislead us. If you say, "Look, do these people come at the world through how much agency and gratitude is there guiding them?" How, you know, how high is the top of that geyser? How high is it uplifting that? How strong is the generative drive? If we match people upon that, then we see, oh, those people got along and those people didn't. And then, you know, there are all the other factors like pheromones, right, and things that we can't understand or, like, reflexive first impressions. So, so, like, we could let things develop honoring the truth of what we can't know, that when you put two people together, you get something that's different than the sum of both people, right? It's not an overlap of maps, right? It's a new map, right? And the map is informed by things that are, that are on each individual's map. But what we're looking for are maps that don't have very significant, uh, um, differences around just clear concrete things, right? But once we get beyond that, the maps can synergize in all sorts of beautiful and unpredictable ways. I- and if both are, are coming from the perspective of a generative drive that is at the forefront, great. You put those maps together and see what happens. Maybe nothing happens. Okay, those people don't go out on a second date. You know, maybe something happens but it doesn't develop in certain ways. Okay, those people dated then stopped dating. Like, this happens all the time, right? But we set the odds in our favor that the generative drive in each that is at the forefront means that their maps can synergize in ways that can then be beautiful and ways that can maybe bring to both people that which, which they want. And I think there's a simplicity to that, that I, I think if we honor it, it can be very, very helpful, whether it's romance, it's friendships, of looking at what the truth of it is instead of the factors that we try and gain a false sense of security i- if we're, we're using them to select upon.

6. 22:48 – 35:00

   Generative Drive in Relationships

   1. PCDr. Paul Conti22:48

   2. AHAndrew Huberman22:48

      You mentioned several times the generative drive, and I definitely would like to learn more about that and spend some time there in the context of relationships. But just to drill a little bit further into what we've all heard so often, and you touched upon a few of these themes, um, around points of compatibility, but also where, uh, sometimes we can, um, respond to the wrong things when thinking about compatibility. Again, we're framing this mainly in the context of hypothetical romantic relationships, but certainly it pertains to other sorts of relationships. Things like, um, you know, is one person educated, uh, with an advanced degree, and is, and is the other person also? You know, we tend to assume that people who are, um, are somehow a better match than people who aren't. Th- that's sort of an implicit assumption that's often made, not always. Or that, um, you know, if two people really love music, that they will enjoy music together and therefore, you know, the sum of the whole is greater than either of its parts, you know? And then-

   3. PCDr. Paul Conti23:50

      And I think those things are utterly irrelevant.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman23:52

      Interesting. And I want to hear more about this, because I think that, um, if you think about, um, which I'm sure you don't, but, uh, like, dating apps, for instance, like, what's listed out there, or, um, first or second dates, which, you know, consists of, like, learning a little bit about somebody and what they're doing and maybe even a little bit about their history and, and, um, maybe an activity, uh, and certainly an intentional awareness to how the other person is behaving in the context of different things like, you know, a waiter or waitress and how they're treating people and, and you and, and then you hear about things like, um-... what are the, uh, this is not something I'm familiar with, but, oh, right, the, um, the love languages. People are like, "Oh, what's their love languages?" You know, it's like gifts or like, uh, acts of physical, um, uh, touch or, you know, or acts of service or something. I, I met someone recently who, and she told me, "Uh, my love language is all of them." (laughs)

   5. PCDr. Paul Conti24:44

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman24:44

      You know, which I think is the most honest answer, right? Because sure there's probably some weighting around what people value more or less. And in the absence of the things they value the most, it, it would probably feel a bit like deprivation, um, in any relationship. But as I'm describing all this, I'm realizing more and more li- like, yes, all of that matters, anxious attached, secure attached, love languages, et cetera, but it really doesn't get to the heart of the matter. Uh, it really doesn't get to this, as you're describing it, this generative drive-

   7. PCDr. Paul Conti25:14

      Mm-hmm.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman25:14

      ... in individuals and whether or not those match up well along the points of compatibility-

   9. PCDr. Paul Conti25:19

      Right.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman25:19

       ... with the other person's generative drive. And, you know, I haven't run a, a controlled study for this, but the best evidence I have is that there fortunately are many people out there who are in happy, healthy relationships, but there are many, many, many people who are not, either because they can't find them or they're in them and they're not healthy or they're not happy, et cetera. So if you could, um, elaborate a bit more on the generative drive, again reminding us what the nature of that is. We covered this a bit in episodes one and two, but what, what the nature of that is and, and some different ways that that's expressed and how that, um, shows up in healthy relationship.

   11. PCDr. Paul Conti25:59

       Yeah. Yeah. I think we really disprove the idea that, that some of these, these factors that I think are superficial in the context of whether people are gonna be compatible, they're not superficial things, but they're not germane, right? So let's say you, you think about music, right, and say two people are contemplating romance, right? And they both really like music. Well, that could go very, very well. Let's say they both have a, a, a strong generative drive, they, they, those pillars are pretty healthy and the geyser of the agency and gratitude is riding upon it and they can find peace in them, in themselves, um, they're strongly generative, then they could become interested in the music the other person likes. Isn't... There's not gonna be a complete overlap, right? Even if people generally like the same thing, but let's say they like different things, like just liking music or even liking the same music, there's still difference, right? So the person has to go beyond themselves, right? And say, "Okay, I'm interested in, like, what you think even about the music we both like," right? "What factors do you like?" There are places of, of learning and of growth for both. And you could see how both liking music, whether it's the same or different music, that sounds great, right? But you could also see how that could not be great, right? If, if the generative drive is too low and the aggression drive is too high, right, then I'm gonna think, "I like music, my music's better than yours," or, you know... (laughs) Right? Or, you know, pe- people then start, they, they'll, they'll fragment, right, even though they have the same interest. Or if the pleasure drive is too high then they think, "I want to listen to my music, not yours. I'm, I, I'm familiar with it." Instead of, "Hey, I'm interested in that music because y- because you're interested in it and I'm interested in you," right? Which leads us to the second part. Let's say you have someone who really has no interest in music and someone who does. Well, there can be an openness of saying, "If I'm interested in this person and this person is really interested in music, like, will that... I have some interest in it, right? I want to learn something about it. I want to experience some of it with the other person." And, and let's say that person then finds, "Hey, that's not my thing. It's not the thing we connect on," then why would that be the end of the world, right? Plenty of people, one person goes to concerts, the other doesn't, right? So, you know, we, we, we try and find these points of commonality because I think we get over reductionist, and then we think, "Oh, here's a bunch of factors that we will identify," and what they do is they obscure us from the primary factor which is the generative drive, which of course will then induce open-mindedness, mentalization. If I don't like music and you do, instead of saying, "What does he like music for? You know, why, why... I need a friendship with somebody who likes music?" You know, you think, "Hey, like, that's interesting. Like, if I'm interested in you as a, as a friend and I have respect for you and what you think, then why would I not have some interest in what you're interested in?" You know, so, so this idea of compatibility revolves around the health in each person. It doesn't revolve around factors that are anything but the, the concrete logistical factors that would just keep two people apart.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman29:06

       I love the idea that healthy relationships center around the factors that really matter within the self-

   13. PCDr. Paul Conti29:12

       Right.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman29:12

       ... and in particular the generative drive. And I, and I love the example of, um, someone being able to be curious about somebody's interests, about their partner's interests even though they might not share those. Um, from the standpoint of agency and gratitude, because the agency component there is really key. I think that a lot of people feel as if they aren't really good at something or really knowledgeable about something, then it's not for them, right? Which is the opposite of having agency and gratitude because gratitude is closely tied to humility, you know? How could we know everything? You know, we can be good to c- certain things and not others. So the way you describe it includes, um, aspects of openness, of humility, but also the agency side, the empowerment. Like, oh, if I'm gonna learn more, then perhaps, you know, we could enjoy more of that together. Um, perhaps not, right? I think, um, this is what I'm sensing, and I'm also sensing that, um, the words like-minded, you know, like-minded people, um, has so much more to do with their generative drives and how those match up as opposed to the activities that they prefer engaging in and the sorts of foods they like or the movies they like, and, um, which...... makes sense at some level, but I think i- is still, uh, counterintuitive for, for a lot of us, who, um, just kind of reflexively think, oh, like, they like the same things, you know? Or maybe th- maybe even they met at work because they like the same type of work, um, they like to live in a certain area of the country, and therefore by proximity they met. Um, and this raises all sorts of, um, interesting ideas perhaps about, um, the statistics of what we see, right? Like, two musicians together, um, we therefore assume that musicians, uh, belong together. Or two scientists together. I know loads of scientist-scientist couples or scientist-physician couples, and, um, but of course the numbers are skewed because they were working in environments where it increased the probability they would interact. So this is actually a vote for online dating in some sense because it breaks through all those, um, sometimes even geographical barriers, but certainly the, the, the traditional barriers of culture.

   15. PCDr. Paul Conti31:18

       Right, right. And if you think about, 'cause we're talking about relationships, so I would like my relationships to last as long as possible, right? That means now we're talking about my lifespan and my health span, right? Like, that's then becomes part of that discussion. And of course we're very interested in lifespan and health span, and we see people do much, much better when they're interconnected in the world around them, when they're still learning new things. Like, w- we know that's true, that people often will tell, you know, they sort of trail off of, of what they're learning, whether it's, it's music, it's literature, it's the world around us, you know, relatively early in our lifespan. But the person who's interconnected, learning new things, right? Has a, a much greater probability of living longer and living healthier, right? So I think, what's that about? It's about a generative drive, right? It's about, y- you know what? I've learned a lot of things over the course of my life and I'm 80 years old now and, like, great that there's more to learn, right? And like, that's what you see. It makes me think of a woman who's around 90 years old who, in my practice, who like, she's always learning new things, like, she's super interested in things, and I'm always struck about how, like, she seems so much younger, right? And, and there, th- that's not just a selection bias, like, oh, I just happen to see that in that person. Like, she has the factors that predispose to aging in the way that's healthiest and happiest. So i- i- it really comes down, the root of all of it, in ourselves, in our relationships, in the quality of them over time, in how long we get to have them, really arises from a generative drive. And that's the thing that makes us then undefended, right? And lets us find interest in things about other people that are different from the things in us, which also comes about naturally. Like, I think it's interesting that we have this sort of bias, l- because musicians belong together. Well, why? They're familiar with the same things, right? I guess. They have the same interests. Same thing with scientists. But then, like, a lot of people li- like different foods, right? Like, I love different ethnic foods. Like, why? 'Cause th- it's different, right? It's, it's an appreciation of difference. I don't want to eat just like I did growing up. And many, many, many people are like that. That's an appreciation of difference, of diversity. So sometimes we'll kind of harness that and we'll look at it and we'll say, "Oh, like, that's present in us," but f- for whatever reason we become very reductionist about relationships, and now we're, we're trying to match based upon sameness, right? And like, s- sameness is, is not the point of it. I mean, there are even thoughts, right, about people then in some way seeking difference, right? And maybe pheromones are telling us that. Like, I, I actually know very little about that, but I certainly know that striving for sameness doesn't make good things happen in relationships. You know, I've been doing this for over 20 years and, and like, I, I don't see that the alleged factors of sameness matter. Again, unless they're so concrete, like if this person is absolutely gonna live in North America and that person's absolutely gonna live in South America, let's not potentially put them together. But once we get away from almost that level of concreteness, let's look for something different, and then like everything else, it simplifies, right? The higher we go up the ladder, the more simple things get. If you're looking at the pillars, structure of self, function of self, you're creating the agency and gratitude, then what are you looking for when you're looking for a partner? A, a match in generative drive. I wanna ma- I want mine to be strong and I see that it's strong in this person. They create in a way. You know what? I, I do science, they grow a garden. We're generative together, right? Like, that could be super compatible, because we're looking at the one factor that really matters.

7. 35:00 – 36:26

   Sponsor: AG1

   1. PCDr. Paul Conti35:00

   2. AHAndrew Huberman35:00

      I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, AG1. AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that meets all of your foundational nutrition needs. I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast. The reason I started taking AG1, and the reason I still take AG1 once or generally twice per day, is that it's the easiest way for me to ensure that I'm getting all of the vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and fiber that I need in my diet. Now, of course it's essential to get proper nutrition from whole foods, but most people, including myself, find it hard to get enough servings of fruits and vegetables each day, and especially to get enough prebiotics and probiotics to ensure gut health. As you may know, your gut contains trillions of little microbiota, the so-called gut microbiome, which establishes critical connections with other organs of your body to enhance brain health, as well as to support your immune system and other aspects that relate to mental and physical health. One of the most common questions I get is, if you were to take just one supplement, which supplement would that be? And my answer is always AG1, because by taking AG1, I'm able to ensure that I'm getting all of the vitamins, minerals, and probiotics that I need to enhance my mental health, physical health, and performance. If you'd like to try AG1, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer. They'll give you five free travel packs and they'll give you a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2. Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to claim this special offer.I'm

8. 36:26 – 45:16

   Generative Drive, Aggressive Drive, Pleasure Drive

   1. AHAndrew Huberman36:27

      realizing that most of what I and everyone else has heard about relationships is complete nonsense. I really mean that. I mean, it has occurred to me before, because I've experienced both, that the phrases "absence makes the heart grow fonder" and "out of sight, out of mind" are in direct contradiction with one another. So they're both true. Depends on the circumstances and, you know, who the hell knows why. It could... (laughs) Right? You also hear "opposites attract, but they don't stay together," right? You hear similar... You know, the important thing is to find someone similar to you that, that... Or that there's that one person, right, that's right for you. I mean, these are, if we really think about it, crazy-

   2. PCDr. Paul Conti37:07

      Right.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman37:08

      ... notions.

   4. PCDr. Paul Conti37:09

      Yes.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman37:09

      But they drive a lot of what people think about relationships.

   6. PCDr. Paul Conti37:13

      They drive a lot of angst, right? They drive angst.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman37:14

      Right.

   8. PCDr. Paul Conti37:15

      They drive bad choices. They drive, uh, situations that then create a sense of guilt and shame and inadequacy. Like, we mislead ourselves by not going to the basics of what is actually true. Like, I'm going to look at myself, make myself as healthy as I can be, right? Because if I'm healthy, I'll recognize a lack of health in the other, right? So it also protects us aga- against bad relationships. And then if I'm going to make myself healthy, which we're describing how that looks, wouldn't I want someone who also (laughs) wants to make themselves healthier? At least if, if we're going to ally, right, let's, let's ally around making both of, of ourselves healthier.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman37:51

      Absolutely. And we're going to go deeper into how to, uh, look into the map of self and how that relates to relationship, uh, certainly, uh, more as we go along this, uh, discussion. You've mentioned several times, however, about generative drive, and that it really is the definition of like-minded in some sense.

   10. PCDr. Paul Conti38:13

       Mm-hmm.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman38:13

       And you also mentioned aggressive drives and pleasure drives, themes that we touched on again in episodes one and two. But listening to those episodes is certainly not necessary to digest what we're talking about today. Could you go a little bit deeper into the generative drive, flesh out for us what that is? Um, I think generative, I think generator, I think energy. Um, I hear aggression or aggressive drive. I think... As I think most people do, um, friction, maybe even conflict, maybe physical conflict, maybe verbal conflict, but I know it's some of that perhaps, but a whole lot more. And then pleasure drive, and pleasure, uh, some people think bliss, some people think, uh, delight, um, some people, uh, probably have all sorts of specific things they think of with respect to pleasure. So if you could just flesh those out for us a little bit more, because I think those are going to serve as, um, cornerstones of today's-

   12. PCDr. Paul Conti39:06

       Mm-hmm.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman39:06

       ... uh, discussion.

   14. PCDr. Paul Conti39:07

       Mm-hmm. Sure. So drives, and in this case, the generative drive, sort of exist within us. And, and what they do is they're defining potential, right? So, so w- right now, one could argue if we just pause for a couple seconds, we're not doing anything generative in those seconds, right? But then we resume doing something that we believe is generative, right? So at the, the time we're pausing, that's when we can sort of look at that as a, as a drive w- within us to, to, to make new learning, right? To understand things we didn't understand before, to spread a sense of goodness, right? So it resides in us in a way that is determined by a whole bunch of different factors. Like, like everything else that's determined within us, there's a nature and a nurture component. So some aspect of it, or what are the genetics that came down to us? What are formative experiences? But we can go in and alter that. So if we see the drive as a set of potentials, like in that moment we pause, there's a set of potentials within us, like potential of where we can take our thoughts, our actions, our reflections, our decisions, right? That's the drive within us, and it exists within us in a way that we could localize now. Like, if we think enough about, okay, how much of a generative drive is there in a person? How much is that person looking to the... to, to make a better life for themselves or a better world around them? And how do they feel about themselves and their ability to do that? How generative are they or how shut down or demoralized or envious? So we can, in a sense, localize that. And again, the localization has these genetic and nurture components to it, but we can then go and influence that. And that's the... that's the importance. If the drive is a set of potentials, a set of possibilities, then that drive is one and the same pervaded with however we want to, to, to, to describe that, with the agency and gratitude, 'cause the agency and gratitude is sort of the operative form of that. That's the verb, right? It's the drive actually driving something, right? So if you have a strong generative drive, then agency and gratitude are leading the decisions. The reflections are coming through that. The aggression within us or... Again, that's the s- the... this... the, um, historical word, but... So we can say aggression, assertion, proacti- proactiveness, right? All of this inside of us and our drive for pleasure, for gratification, right? That all is then... It's in us, but it's subserving the generative drive, meaning the generative drive, that set of potentials and possibilities, is dominant, which of course makes sense with agency and gratitude, those active verbs being what is most active, right? And then we're also gonna feel at times, and hopefully at a lot of times, right? The, the... that set of peacefulness, that sense of contentment, the sense of delight, right? What you're describing when you're, you know, doing the podcast and you're in it and all these good things are happening to you, right? There's a strong generative drive in you. That set of potentials are being actualized through the verbs of agency and gratitude. Like, you're doing it all right then. And as you're doing it, you have a sense of peace and contentment as you're enacting all of it, and then that makes you healthier. It reinforces the generative drive. It protects you against the next sling or arrow of outrageous fortune that will come your way, right? You become more self-knowledgeable, more... You become stronger, right? And, and ultimately, that's what we're...... looking for, like that's the state of goodness. And I believe that if you look historically, what is it that we're seeking? We can put so many words to it, and we're choosing to put these words to it. I mean, I think that this is the structure because I think the science, the history, the clinical experience, the phenomenology, I think it all tells us this. We can put different words to it, but what we're looking at when we're looking at truth and how to get to the happiness, quote-unquote, that people have sought through the ages, I mean, I think we know enough now. We've learned enough that we can say, "Oh, this is what it looks like." And it fits the arbiter of all truth, which is, as you get further up the hierarchy, it gets simpler. That's true about humans. What's going on in my unconscious is very, very complicated, right? But if that's summing to, as we get higher up, to like, "I'm approaching the world with a lot of agency and gratitude," that's a lot simpler, and that's what can be common among us. Which is why, if my pillars are very different from your pillars, and what we've struggled against each is very different, and what we may still have to work against is very different, well, we can be extremely compatible as friends because are we working on ourselves? Are we fostering the generative drive so we're coming at the world in that way? And agency and gratitude, that's the similarity, right, between us that matters. And ultimately, we're looking at the potential, that every moment we're building the potential in us for what comes at the next moment, which is why we're describing the overlap, the point of commonality that really matters, that matters. We're putting a label to it, right? We're saying it's the generative drive, but it is also that, okay, we both come at the world through agency and gratitude, you know, if two people are assessing compatibility. But if we're looking at something to nest that under and what seems most logical is the set of potentials within us that we're building and altering each moment, and then as I alter it in this moment, right, it's altered and then affects my next moment, right? If I do something that's just kind of thoughtless to somebody, you know, because I'm in a bad mood, right, then what am I doing? I'm projecting out my aggression. I'm doing something that basically makes me less than, right? And then I'm going to feel less in the next moment, whether that moment is about me or is about someone else. The drives are the potentials in us, but we are actively working on them, determining them, changing them each moment.

9. 45:16 – 53:05

   Romantic Relationships & Matched Generative Drives, Trauma Bonds

   1. AHAndrew Huberman45:16

      I'm well on board the idea that the typical pairings, let's call them the idiosyncratic pairings of musician with musician in many cases, but sometimes very verbal person with quieter person, introvert with extrovert, or introvert with introvert, that all of that takes backseat or perhaps even back-backseat, perhaps it even is out of the vehicle compared to the critical importance of generative drive.

   2. PCDr. Paul Conti45:45

      Right.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman45:46

      When we think about generative drives in individuals, you beautifully described what a generative drive is and how it shows up in individuals. When thinking about generative drives in romantic relationships, however, because generative drive can be expressed to varying degrees, does one often see that... Or do you think that a matching of sort of levels of generative drives is what fosters the best relationships? In other words, let's say somebody has a pretty high pleasure drive but not a very strong aggressive, also called proactiveness drive. And so maybe they watch a lot of Netflix, like a lot of Netflix, but they're not even the sort of person that's really excited about the shows and telling you about them, because there's a version of watching a lot of Netflix where the person is really interested in learning and in knowing. Maybe even they're thinking about writing something, poetry or book, or they're bringing some of that to their life, right? I mention it that way because watching Netflix isn't bad per se. It's not anti-generative.

   4. PCDr. Paul Conti46:55

      Is it an escape or is it generative? Is the person thinking about what they're going to do, they're going to write that book, or are they just trying to numb out and at the end of five hours in front of the television they don't know what those five hours were, right? There's no intrinsic value judgment based upon a lot of things that we make intrinsic value, we make value judgments about. You have to look at who is the person, what is the context? Are they being generative or not?

   5. AHAndrew Huberman47:20

      Yeah. Some of the movies and shows that I've watched in relationships became the points of connection around, at least to me, tremendously interesting discussions on hikes that we took the next day and reflections on our own relationship and work and life. And so I'm so glad that you point out that there's nothing intrinsically valuable or invaluable about something like Netflix or even intrinsically passive about doing something like sitting around or even reading books for that matter. There's a passive version of reading great books also. People forget that. It's hard to read a great book and not learn something. I guess that's why they're called great books. But there is a version of that, and I know many people-

   6. PCDr. Paul Conti47:59

      People want to possess the book. I read the book and I'm going to check it off. I don't know what was in it. Like, people do that. That is not generative.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman48:06

      So should we consider matching of level or expression of generative drives as perhaps what we are all seeking in seeking relationship? And do you think that people tend to pair up, naturally pair up with people that have a similar level of generative drive? Or if they don't, do you think it leads to problems?

   8. PCDr. Paul Conti48:30

      Yeah, I think that by and large people don't, that it's not the thing that we're thinking about and looking for in ourselves or others. And I absolutely believe that it makes problems. And let's take a look-

   9. AHAndrew Huberman48:42

      To not look. It makes problems to not look?

   10. PCDr. Paul Conti48:44

       Right. It makes sense why the fact that we're not basing it upon generative drive does indeed, I think, make many, many, many, many, many, and in fact, countless problems. And I would take as an example, like, think about the idea of a trauma bond, right? A trauma bond is not a bad thing. That sounds like a strong statement because the way that I hear a trauma bond used is it's a bad thing, right? But it doesn't have to be. So, so let's take a look at it. Imagine that you have what people call a trauma bond. You know, you have two people who, well, let's just, w- we'll make up a situation, right? They're, they're, they're functioning in the world around them, but they each have had some very significant trauma that is creating issues in them. So let's say they're avoidance issues. A person doesn't feel safe or comfortable in the world around them, they get invited to places that they'd like to go, but they don't go, right? They want to go to the museum and see something really new and cool there, but there might be a crowd, right? I mean, this happens, right? And let's say you have two people who both have this in them. It could be because the trauma is similar. The trauma could be night and day, right? But they each have this in them. They could bond around that trauma in a way that worsens the trauma. That's why people think negatively of a trauma bond, right? So i- if the case i- is that the trauma bond is not a good thing for these two people, you say, "Why is that?" It's not because both of them have had trauma and both of them are impacted by trauma and both of them are impacted by trauma in similar ways. It's not that. It's that the drives are not in a healthy place. And the gratification of the generative drive and the pleasure drives are not high enough. So let's imagine the generative drive is, could be relatively low in, in each of these people in one or the other. Or they could have a naturally high drive that's being thwarted, right? So, so there's something that's out of balance. Where the drive is, the, the ability to express the drive, right? Is there enough agency, right? If there's not, like, let's say one person is really, really shut down, that person can't stand their job, right? Okay, something is shutting that person down. The generative drive wishes greater expression. They go back and look at themselves. You can bring that into line, right? But it, uh, something is out of balance at the time. The, the pleasure drive may be low or it may be high, but it may not be gratified. It may be that that person loves museums and wants to go to the museum but can't find that gratification, right? That's a possibility. The aggression or assertion drive would be on the low end, right? But it could be higher. Maybe if that person felt safer, right? That drive within them has a lot of latitude in it, and maybe it could move higher, right? But something is out of balance in the drives and in their expression, right? That's the problem. Because let's look at the other side where a trauma bond is a great thing, right? So each of the people in the example has trauma, and they recognize it in themselves and they understand how it makes things harder for them. And, and then that they're communicating about how it makes it hard in the other, right? So maybe there's a lot of overlap, right? In social avoidance and sense of vulnerability. But maybe there are things that are different in one person versus the other. So then they can come together and say, "Look, the, the, what's the goal of life?" Like, "I would like to be as healthy as I can be. I'm working on myself." You want to be as healthy as you can be. We want to be as healthy as we can be. And if we're healthy, we also help each of us be healthy. So maybe those two people, neither of which say would ever go to the museum on their own because the trauma inside of them is at a point, it hasn't been worked through or whatever, it's at a place where they just simply feel too vulnerable, right? But together, they can go to the museum. And then the bond around trauma helps them be healthy. The drives are in a better place because they're able to recognize, "Hey, there are things going on in me that I'd like to be different and better and you recognize that too and we can talk about it with one another," right? So they're in a healthier place, and then from that healthier place, they build greater health.

10. 53:05 – 1:04:29

    Generative Drive Expression, Libido, Giving & Taking

    1. AHAndrew Huberman53:06

       So much of what we hear about in terms of, uh, friction points in relationship centers around, it seems, communication or lack of communication. And as you're describing the role of the generative drive in healthy relationship, um, it seems to me that it ties back in every way to agency and gratitude and agency being such a critical element of communication. Because wherever you've identified that, okay, there's a potential problem here, um, people with high generative drive in these examples seem to be capable of, like, self-inquiry, uh, asking the other person questions that bring, bring them closer together and to a deeper understanding of the self. I, I raise this because one thing that's often overheard or that I've overheard, I, of course I have siblings and friends, are, are, um, and I'll place this in the, the way that I've most typically heard it but I'm sure it exists in other ways too, which is, um, uh, in the, the conversation in my head is one where a woman is saying, you know, like, they're with somebody, um, or dating somebody and, like, "He's, he's so clueless." Like, "I wish that he would just do this thing." Sometimes these are acts of chivalry, like maybe it's flowers or vacations, but more often than not it's, it's, um, a r- a request or a complaint about a lack of proactiveness. You know, this is also what ratchets up to these, um, very pan statements that you hear like, "Oh, there's no real men these days," or like, "There are no real men left" or, you know, this kind of thing. You also hear it in the reverse, right? You hear men making pan statements about women. And here we're doing this in the context of heterosexual pairings, but of course, it could all work just as well in homosexual-

    2. PCDr. Paul Conti54:43

       So

    3. AHAndrew Huberman54:43

       Right. It's, it's, exactly. It could all work, um, in the context of homosexual pairings too. So you hear those sorts of things and it sounds like-... a lack of communication. You know, okay, maybe one person needs to be better at asking for their needs to be met. Maybe the other person needs to develop more of an awareness of what the other person needs. Of course, we all seem to kind of intrinsically wish that, um, things would just happen for us without the- the need to request them or ask for them. But I'm realizing again that all of that is- is distracting commotion because that's not really what's going on. What- what's really going on, it seems, is that the engine behind communication, the engine behind curiosity, a desire to learn and know and create something from that learning and knowing in the relationship, the generative drive is really what's the issue, or the lack of generative drive in any of those conversations. It seems one could circle back to that and go, okay, well, someone's not asking with the right questions and therefore not doing the right things because they're- they don't either have a sense of agency or they don't have gratitude for the situation they're in, including their own ability to do that, right? So when you hear, you know, people aren't showing up for the relationship, they're not showing up or, you know, she's not showing up, or again, let's make the pan statement go in the other direction that, you know, um, that somebody just wants a lot of attention, right? They just need an excess amount of attention, won't let me do my own thing, but also wants me to work and be successful, you know? Again, these are stereotypes, but all of that seems very distracting. However, all of it seems far simpler if we push it through this filter of generative drives and whether or not it's being expressed.

    4. PCDr. Paul Conti56:29

       Yes. Yes. I- I think maybe the best example of this because it's so highly charged is imagine that the pleasure drive through the lens of sex and sexuality, right? So imagine that people who are in a pairing, they're in a relationship, regardless of how they got there, we're taking people are in a relationship. And one has a- a sex drive with- which means an interest in sex and maybe, uh, proclivities for diversity of sexual experience that say if we just for sake of this example we put on a one to ten scale, that- that person is a two. Okay? Now let's say the other person in the relationship-

    5. AHAndrew Huberman57:04

       Ten being the greatest.

    6. PCDr. Paul Conti57:05

       Yeah, sorry. Right, right.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman57:06

       (laughs)

    8. PCDr. Paul Conti57:06

       Sorry, sorry. Ten being... Right. That person is a two. Now let's say the partner is an eight. Okay? So- so there's a big mismatch there. You think, how does that normally go? The two stays a two, the eight stays an eight, and things don't go well, right? It creates friction in the relationship at a minimum. It blows the relationship apart at a maximum. The person who's a two feels inadequate often. I mean, it's not always, right? But- but this is how this often goes. Person who's a two feels inadequate because the person who's an eight wants either more or different, right? And the person is- who's a two doesn't. Now that person feels bad and they may feel bad about themselves or resentful of the person with a higher sex drive. The person on the higher level feels now resentful of the person at the lower level, or maybe they feel like there's something wrong with them because their sex drive's too high, or they have an interest that- that the other person doesn't have and now they start labeling themselves. Like, this happens all the time and it doesn't change most of the time, and the problems are enormous. Okay? So- so let's see how could that look, how would that look with really high generative drives, a- and therefore the ability to think about self, to think about others, and to think about the us of the situation, right? The two people together, right? So they'd be able to talk about it in ways that wouldn't be faulting of the other and would acknowledge what's inside of them. Like, the person with the lower drive could say, "You know what? Just things doesn't strike me as more interesting. I don't think about it more." They could talk about all of that. The person who wishes more or wishes different could talk about that too, right? And could talk about what they feel inside, if there's a frustration of that, just like the person with a lower sex drive could talk about the- how frustrating it feels to feel pressured, right? So what are they developing? They're mentalizing, right? They're thinking about each other's emotional states and- and they're coming at each other through agency and gratitude. Like, "I'm so grateful for you." Remember see, we- we're... The example is these people are partners and they're happy with their partnership. Like, "Oh my God, I'm so grateful I found you," right? They would each feel that way. "I'm so grateful you're in my life." Like, this happens too, right? And then from that lens, you know, the two isn't gonna become an eight. The eight isn't gonna become a two, right? But in general, in situations like this, there can be somewhere in the middle, right? And- and let- lets say the two, you know, says like, "Okay, you know what? I can get out of my comfort zone a little bit." Why don't most people try that? Because they feel embarrassed. They feel self-conscious. You know, they- they don't want to try new things or try more. People get closed down because there's such shame around sexuality. You- you can take people on any spectrum of sexuality and you will find shame, you know, not in every person but across whatever population we're looking at because it's so emotionally charged. So let's say in a loving, caring relationship, like, that person feels the freedom inside say, "You know what? Maybe I could enjoy sex a little more, a little more often, a little more innovatively." That person thinks about like, somebody who's at a two can then move that to a different place, you know, a little bit more or maybe even a lot more depending. And then the person who's at the higher level, you know, the eight doesn't need another eight, right? In order to stay in the relationship. But- but something maybe more than a two, right? And then let's say they come into the middle and then the person who's an eight realizes like, "Look, I love you and you love me and- and you- you out of your comfort zone, right? In order to do this." And like, and wow, and it's like more fun for both of us. So like, you know what? It's okay. My higher sex drive, I'll deal with that, that maybe just making it up like, "I- I would like to do it three times a week. We're doing it two." Okay, you know what? That- that's fine. Both sides can live with it, but it is not threadbare. It's not like, well, they can live with it. It's like, no. Number one, they can live with it. Number two, it's better.It's better, right? The two at one point was thinking, hey, anything more than a two is, I can't do that, right? It's shut down. The eight doesn't want anything less than an eight. Now they're in the middle and their relationship is closer. That's real. That happens. What is it relying upon? It's relying upon the generative drive to have the openness, the ability to communicate. Maybe the person who's an eight say has a sexual proclivity they're embarrassed about. That happens all the time too, but in the sense of acceptance of self, uh, and, and the belief in the, the strength of the relationship and the acceptance of the other. You know, people can broach things. Most people who feel like, oh, I could never broach that. It's not something bizarre or dangerous. Like, it's not something that in a relationship that's, that's defined by the generative drive the other person is likely to reject. So let's define our relationships through the generative drive, and let's cultivate in self and others the most generative drive. If somehow per- let's say person A and person B here, because it doesn't matter who's the eight and who's the two, has cultivated more of a generative drive, then maybe that person could give more to the other before that person can give back to them. You know, we, we have these, I think just c- completely nonsensical ideas about mutuality, right? The idea that even in a situation that's supposed to be defined by love, right? And, you know, friendship is a form of love, right? So friendship, um, a collaborative, uh, endeavor, right? They, like, these, they have, they have some affection in them, right? Friendship can have love and often does, and let's say the love of, of romance, that there's supposed to be some equality, right? The, you know, the idea that, well, if I'm going to give something, I want you to give something too. I'm like, it is not good if one person is always doing the giving. Right? People don't always, or maybe don't often, depends on how we want to look at it, give to others with a sense of freedom. Like, and you don't owe me anything either, right? Why? Because it comes from love. It comes from the abundance, the, the, the access of goodness in me coming through the, the, the agency that I feel, the gratitude that I feel, and then what's more likely? You're much more likely the other person, right, to, to sort of feel like, hey, I can go a little more. You feel stronger, you feel empowered. Making someone feel worse or saying, "You know what? I can give you something, but you owe me something back," right? Even if that's tacit, right? Well, I'll give, you know, I can give you this now, but you kind of know that the other person's going to end up doing the laundry for two months or so. Like, that's not okay. Why not just give something, right? You're giving goodness and then the other person actually gets the goodness, and they're more likely to find it within themselves, right? To, to then come a little out of their comfort zone, develop a, you know, move their generative drive a little bit forward. So, so gifts given to others with no expectation of return are gifts of abundance. They're gifts that arise from the generative drive, and they make us more generative. Think about the opposite. What often happens? Each person makes the other feel guilty, right? Right? "Oh, this person wants, he wants so much," and, "Look, there you are again." Like, people feel terrible about that or, you know, they're, you don't want any sex or this or that. The other person feels terrible, like, that's why the two stays the two and the eight stays the eight, right? But it doesn't have to be that way, and it's also not that if both end up in the middle, say both are a five, that that's some compromised position that implies less. No, that's the compromised position that makes

11. 1:04:29 – 1:05:50

    Sponsor: Eight Sleep

    1. PCDr. Paul Conti1:04:29

       more.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:04:30

       I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge our sponsor, Eight Sleep. Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity. I've spoken many times before on this podcast and elsewhere about the fact that getting a quality night's sleep on a regular basis is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance. When we're sleeping well, everything goes better, and when we are not sleeping well or enough, everything in terms of mental health, physical health, and performance gets far worse very quickly. One of the key things to getting a great night's sleep is to control the temperature of your sleeping environment, and that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, you need your core body temperature to drop by about one to three degrees, and in order to wake up feeling refreshed, you need your core body temperature to increase by about one to three degrees. That all becomes very easy when using an Eight Sleep mattress cover because it allows you to program the temperature of your sleeping environment at the beginning, middle, and towards the end of your night when you wake up. I started sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover over two years ago, and it immediately and persistently improved the quality and depth of my sleep, and as a consequence, I wake up feeling far more refreshed. I have enhanced mood, focus, and alertness throughout the day. If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, you can go to eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $150 off their Pod 3 cover. Eight Sleep currently ships in the USA, Canada, UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia. Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman.

12. 1:05:50 – 1:11:16

    Generative Drive in Partnerships

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:50

       Based on my understanding of the generative drive, the aggressive, also we're calling it proactiveness drive, and the pleasure drive, and the importance of the generative drive being greater than the aggressive or pleasure drives, I can also see the potential problem of having like two eights along, a-

    2. NANarrator1:06:11

       Oh, sure.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:11

       ... the sexual desire scale or two nines, um, or two 10s, and actually I've observed a lot of examples of this. Uh, for instance, if there are, let's say two nines, they're bo- both people nine out of 10 on the, on the, uh, joy and, uh, sort of proclivity for sex, adventurous sex, et cetera on, they're very high on the pleasure scale.

    4. PCDr. Paul Conti1:06:32

       Right.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:33

       Perhaps even so much so that they don't pay attention to, or one person doesn't pay attention to the critical need for points of compatibility to be met, like the desire to someday have a family. I- I've known couples like this. They're together for a long time. They seem to really enjoy one another. I know nothing of their sex lives, but there just seems to be a very strong attachment around certain forms of pleasure that they both enjoy engaging in. So this could be, uh, activities or travel. I mean, here we're, we're saying, you know, nine, nine of 10 on, on, on the sex scale, but-... in many of those cases, there's one person saying, you know, "But I want to have a family someday," and they're just not into that, or-

    6. PCDr. Paul Conti1:07:13

       Right.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:07:13

       ... perhaps even like, but he won't leave his wife, right? You know, they're, like, involved in something that feels really good, they're matching along some se- pleasure drive, but completely overlooking the larger goals of one or both people, right? And, um, and it, you know, here I pointed to an instance of infidelity, uh, that's its own, you know, i- issues with morals, et cetera, but you see this a lot, like people really orienting towards what feels good and who feels good to be with, and that, of course, is healthy, but that's not the entire picture. So would you say that what I'm describing is an example of where the pleasure drive has overcome the generative drive, because in the case of somebody wanting a family and the other person already having one and being unwilling to leave that one, or the other person not wanting a family, uh, that the, the generative drive of the, the person who, uh, who wants a family is, is not being respected, it's, or it's being undermined by this excess desire for pleasure? Like, they're just drawn into the moment and the-

    8. PCDr. Paul Conti1:08:15

       Mm-hmm.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:15

       ... the amazing weekends-

    10. PCDr. Paul Conti1:08:17

        Right.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:17

        ... and they're, this, but this person's incredible and they're charismatic. And, um, I can't tell you how many times I've had friends say that, um, you know, they are, they admire the person they're with, but they know the relationship can't work because of all these other-

    12. PCDr. Paul Conti1:08:29

        Right.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:29

        ... underlying issues, (laughs) right?

    14. PCDr. Paul Conti1:08:32

        Right. Right, right. And it's, it's interesting, w- we both overestimate and underestimate what, say, love can do, right? People say, "Oh, love can do anything." No, if I spill that glass, love's not going to put the water back in it, right? If I must live in North America and my partner must live in South America, like, w- we're not gonna be okay, right? So we say these things in a very wishful way, "Love will overcome everything." Like, it doesn't overcome that, right? Or maybe it does in the right circumstances. So think about if the generative drive is very, very high, right? In both people, so both people have, say, a strong need to live in a certain place, they can find a compromise position. Maybe they live half the year in North America and half in South America, but why? Because in that situation, the love between them, the g- which, which is the generative drive in the relationship, right? So w- what does that mean? The first person has to have a strong generative drive, be healthy, understand that even though, like, I- I need to live in North America, right, doesn't, does it actually mean that? Do I really need to live in North America, right? I have to be able to see beyond myself and w- what does that mean to the person I love who needs to live on the other side of the world? If the other person can do that too, then in the relationship, right? Which is a new entity, right? It emerges from one person in the other. You can know everything about one person, everything about the other. Y- you don't know about the two of them together, right? So the two of them together are an us, and if that us has a strong generative drive, which it can if, if each person has a strong generative drive, they can bring to the state of emergence of the us the generative drive, and, you know, that's the, we're talking about are relationships, so say the love between them, and they can find a way through. So the idea that, like, love c- cures all things, like, we have to just find, like, what does that actually mean, right? It doesn't mean we have a lot of pleasure together, right? (laughs) Or we like a lot of the same things. Like, th- that's not what that means, and people can very, very much love one another but not be aware of the limitations inside of them, right? Because maybe there are other things going on in them, like, say, childhood trauma. They love one another, but they can't get out of their comfort zone enough, right? So the, uh, the point is, if we make each, ourselves as healthy as we can be and then two selves come together that are making themselves as healthy as they can be, then the us between them really can fit that definition of, of love and do anything. But we have to define that in the right way, i- in a way that honors the truth, which, again, is not a higher degree of complexity. It's actually more simple.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:15

        So

13. 1:11:16 – 1:18:02

    Libido, Avoidance & Working through Barriers

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:16

       you gave an example of a romantic relationship where one person has a strong sex drive and the other a weaker drive, and then we talked about, uh, an example where both people have a essentially high sex drive and where that could potentially be beneficial assuming that the generative drive is also high in both of them-

    2. PCDr. Paul Conti1:11:35

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:35

       ... and we also explored a little bit of how it can be bad for a relationship if it exceeds the generative drive. What about the aggressive/proactiveness drive? How does that show up in romantic pairings? You know, if one person has a high proactiveness, AKA aggressive, drive and the other person does not, um, what does that look like and, and do you see that often in your clinical practice?

    4. PCDr. Paul Conti1:11:59

       Sure, sure. If this makes sense, maybe we look at that example of the person who's a two and the person who's an eight on the, on the sex drive scale, right? You would say, okay, the person who's a two who's trying to, to raise that, right, has a strong generative drive. What does that mean? The person thinks, "You know what? I think I can do this. I can set myself about this. I see it will make my relationship better. Like, I'm gonna give it a try." That's the generative drive in action. The pleasure drive, the person may look at that and say, "Look, maybe this can be more fun for me," right? Like, "It hasn't been that fun for me. If I have a low pleasure drive, could I start enjoying this more? And then maybe that moves up," right? "Or maybe I have a higher pleasure drive, but it's not been gratified 'cause I haven't been able to be open and honest. Like, let me see if I can make that better." Then, what's active, like, what the person is doing is then going to the aggressive or assertive/proactive, right, to that drive and going to the potential in that drive and mining some of what's in it. Like, "Yeah, how am I gonna do that? I'm gonna bring myself to bear," right? And, like, that's not an easy thing. It's not like that person then all of a sudden decides to be more sexual, right? There has to be a lot of communication between the two people, a lot of discussion of what, what setting might be best for that, what helps the person feel understood or feel more comfortable. Like, there's a lot then to do there, and the person may even need to go back to the pillars, right? 'Cause the person may feel like, "Whoa!...I don't think I can do that, right? And then it was, "That's not good. I want to do that," right? "What is it that I can't do?" There's a realization there. And then maybe the person who's an eight, because they're so well-connected, gets it. "Okay, you can't do that." Like, "Let me support you," right? "In whatever way, whi- while you're figuring that out," 'cause they're both generative. They want to figure that out. Now the-

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:13:44

       Oh, sorry to interrupt. When you say go back to the pillars, you mean go back to exploring the structure of themselves and their function of themselves-

    6. PCDr. Paul Conti1:13:51

       Yes.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:13:52

       ...so that they can, um, for instance, get some insight into what sorts of defense mechanisms might be in place-

    8. PCDr. Paul Conti1:13:58

       Right.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:13:58

       ...um, what they're paying attention to or their behaviors like-

    10. PCDr. Paul Conti1:14:03

        Right.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:03

        ...maybe even health-related behaviors that could be impacting their sex drive, but-

    12. PCDr. Paul Conti1:14:07

        Right.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:07

        ...but maybe even things that, um, reside at a, a deeper level, the unconscious mind, you know, talking to somebody till they make a, a connection around, uh, shame or-

    14. PCDr. Paul Conti1:14:16

        That's right.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:16

        ...or, or some story that they've I- integrated into their thinking at a subconscious level.

    16. PCDr. Paul Conti1:14:21

        Right, right. Just an example that I see a lot, right, is avoidance where, again, not always, but let's say the person with... who's the two on the sex drive scale who finds, like, "I can't do it," right? "Wow, I can't, I just can't bring myself to do it," right? And then they go back and they explore. This happens a, this happens a lot, where there's avoidance. And then we get curious about the avoidance, like, uh, because the person's like, "I just... There's something with just I don't want to do that," right? Okay, so there's avoidance. We identify avoidance. We also identify that it's not healthy because the person does actually want to do that because it's, it's good for the relationship, and it could be good for them too. And then maybe we start looking at unconscious mind, right, or conscious mind, right? And maybe we don't find, because it's, it's easy now if I said, "Oh, there was a major trauma that the person hasn't processed." Sometimes it's that. But a lot of times, it's not that. You know, maybe that person just never learned to feel comfortable with sexuality, or maybe the way that they experience or, or are attracted to sexuality was disparaged or denigrated, right? They... Or, or, you know, they had some bad feeling about it 'cause the society and the culture told them that, or maybe they had a couple bad experiences where they were treated in a certain way, and then it's like, okay, that person comes by that honestly. There's not a major trauma there. In fact, unfortunately, there's a trauma that's almost predictable from the way our society, you know, has been structured. So a person can go look at that and like, "Right, like, I never, I never learned how to do this or how to be comfortable with this," or, "You know what? I learned that I'm not good at it," or, "I, I learned that, uh, no one will enjoy it with me," but, but that's not true. Like, these are, these are situations not in the side of a loving relationship, right? Now, that person is able to bring that knowledge to bear, whether it came from the unconscious mind or the conscious mind, and then that's how you work to start shifting things. Like, that was then, this is now, right? It is not then when, say, the person, say, in high school had a sexuality that others didn't approve of and made them feel bad. Well, guess what? It's not then, and, like, that's unfortunate. It's wrong. It's unjust. We're gonna honor and validate all that that is, but we're also gonna look at that, that was then, this is now, and you get to behave differently now. You're an adult now, and adults get to choose their relationships, and you chose a good relationship, right? So th- so this is the kind of thing that can, that can get that person to the point where they can go back up through. Now, what happens at the end of it? The geyser is stronger. There's more agency. There's more of a sense of gratitude, right? Why? Because the person can attach themselves more to, "I'm so lucky to have this person," as opposed to, "Damn it, I wish that person didn't have a higher sex drive," right? So the person just... And they feel better about themselves instead of, "What's wrong with me that I don't have a higher sex drive," right? The, the... Or said they wished the other person had a lower sex drive or wished they had a higher sex drive. That's not grateful. Like, I'm grateful I am who I am and that I have any sex drive at all, and I'm grateful for this other person. Now, through, through that, right, that change, right, they can go back and better access the assertion, the, the, the proactive drive, the aggressive drive, whatever we want to call it, because they've taken away, they've gone and worked through the barrier to it. Then they're able to be a little more out of their comfort zone, and the, the other person meets them there, right? And, and they start having this, this, you know, this healthy thing between them where the us, that is them, the love between them gets better, right? And then where do they find themselves? That's how they get to the five, which is not a compromise between eight and two that satisfies neither. It is a compromise between eight and two that is way better for both and for the relationship.

14. 1:18:02 – 1:29:23

    Repeating Bad Relationship Patterns, Repetition Compulsion

    1. PCDr. Paul Conti1:18:02

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:02

       I'm curious about common pairings that you observe in the clinical setting, um, and not to focus on the bad, but if there are common pairings that rarely lead to a good outcome-

Episode duration: 3:04:37