How Smartphones & Social Media Impact Mental Health & the Realistic Solutions | Dr. Jonathan Haidt

1. 0:00 – 2:01

   Dr. Jonathan Haidt

   1. AHAndrew Huberman0:00

      (instrumental music) Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Jonathan Haidt. Dr. Jonathan Haidt is a social psychologist and professor at New York University. He is also the author of several important best-selling books, including The Coddling of the American Mind, and more recently, The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness. And today, we talk mainly about The Anxious Generation. However, it is not a purely pessimistic conversation. Indeed, Dr. Haidt offers several clear solutions to the mental health crisis that now exists and that we have all created through the use of smartphones, in particular in kids entering and transitioning through puberty. During today's episode, we discuss so-called critical or sensitive periods for social development, for the development of an understanding about competition and violence, about sex, and how boys and girls are impacted differently by smartphone use, and the specific solutions that do exist, and that Dr. Haidt has created, that can place boys and girls, as well as young adults, back on the trajectory of mental health. So today's discussion is really one that brings together an understanding of neurobiology, psychology, social psychology, and technology in ways that are designed to serve the most critical members of our species, meaning our youth. And for those that have already gone through youth, today's discussion is also relevant to you, because as many of you know and perhaps have experienced, most everybody nowadays is challenged in some way by smartphones, both for their utility and the ways in which they can diminish our social and family interactions, academic performance, and more. So thanks to Dr. Haidt, today's discussion really is a solution-based one, and it's one that is sure to educate, inform, and inspire specific, positive action.

2. 2:01 – 6:23

   Sponsors: Helix Sleep, AeroPress & Joovv

   1. AHAndrew Huberman2:01

      Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is Helix Sleep. Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs. Now, I've spoken many times before on this and other podcasts about the fact that sleep is the foundation for mental health, physical health, and performance. Now, one of the key things to getting a great night's sleep is to make sure that you sleep on a mattress designed specifically for your sleep needs. And that's what Helix Sleep mattresses are designed to accomplish. 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AeroPress is like a French press, but a French press that always brews the perfect cup of coffee, meaning no bitterness and excellent taste. AeroPress achieves this because it uses a very short contact time between the hot water and the coffee. And that short contact time also means that you can brew an excellent cup of coffee very quickly. The whole thing only takes about three minutes. I started using an AeroPress over 10 years ago. I first learned about it from a guy named Alan Adler, who's a former Stanford engineer and inventor. I'm a big fan of Adler's inventions, and when I heard he developed a coffee maker, the AeroPress, I tried it, and I found that indeed it makes the best possible tasting cup of coffee. And I'm not alone in my love of the AeroPress. With over 55,000 five-star reviews, AeroPress is the best-reviewed coffee press in the world. I'm also excited to share that AeroPress has just released a brand-new AeroPress that brews and packs into its own travel tumbler. This new AeroPress, called the AeroPress Go Plus, makes brewing coffee when traveling incredibly easy. The design is really clever. The entire AeroPress unit packs really nicely into a custom AeroPress travel thermos that's small enough that it can fit into your carry-on or any form of luggage. And with it, you can make an excellent cup of coffee anywhere. All you need is some ground coffee and hot water. Indeed, I've even used it on the plane, in hotels, of course. Basically, I take it with me anywhere I need a great-tasting cup of coffee. And with Father's Day coming up, it makes for a great Father's Day gift. If you'd like to try AeroPress, you can go to aeropress.com/huberman to get 20% off. AeroPress currently ships in the USA, Canada, and to over 60 countries around the world. Again, that's aeropress.com/huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by Joovv. Joovv makes medical-grade red light therapy devices. Now, if there's one thing I've consistently emphasized on this podcast, it's the incredible impact that light can have on our biology. Now, in addition to sunlight, red light and near-infrared light have been shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health, including faster muscle recovery, improved skin health and wound healing, even improvements in acne, reducing pain and inflammation, improving mitochondrial function, and even improving vision itself. What sets Joovv lights apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy devices is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning it uses specific wavelengths of red light and near-infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations. Personally, I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel. It's only about the size of a sandwich, so it's super portable and convenient to use. I also have a Joovv whole body panel, and I use that about three or four times per week. If you'd like to try Joovv, you can go to Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman. Joovv is offering an exclusive discount to all Huberman Lab listeners with up to $400 off select Joovv products. Again, that's Joovv, J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman to get $400 off select Joovv products. And now for my discussion with Dr. Jonathan

3. 6:23 – 12:48

   Great Rewiring of Childhood: Technology, Smartphones & Social Media

   1. AHAndrew Huberman6:23

      Haidt. Dr. Jonathan Haidt-Welcome.

   2. JHJonathan Haidt6:26

      Thank you, Andrew. I'm a longtime listener.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman6:28

      Mm-hmm.

   4. JHJonathan Haidt6:28

      I've, I've developed many good habits because of you. Thank you.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman6:32

      Well, thank you. Well, you look very healthy and, um, delighted to have you here. I'm a longtime fan of your work. I read The Coddling of the American Mind. It's an incredibly important book, The Anxious Generation, incredibly important book. I'll just start off with an easy question, which is, how are we doing as a species?

   6. JHJonathan Haidt6:51

      Ah, how are we doing as a species? Well, as a species, as one of my friends said, "You know, we're gonna be pretty hard to kill off. We'll be like cockroaches and, you know, we're, we're pretty inventive in that way." Uh, but as a civilization, I think we might well be at a point of there are peaks and valleys and there are some cycles in history, and we, uh, may be at one of those turning points and, uh, it's gonna be pretty unclear what happens over the next five or 10 years. Um, it's a very interesting time to be a social scientist. I'll just leave it at that.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman7:22

      Mm-hmm. I suppose we can't point to any one factor, but we wouldn't be sitting here today, you wouldn't have written The Anxious Generation, and it wouldn't be having the incredible impact that it's having were it not for the fact that smartphones-

   8. JHJonathan Haidt7:37

      Mm-hmm.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman7:37

      ... have dramatically, profoundly changed the way that we interact as a species.

   10. JHJonathan Haidt7:43

       Mm-hmm.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman7:43

       In fact, a colleague of mine at Harvard, Jeff Lichtman, who's world famous for neuroplasticity, said a few years back, "You know, this is probably the first time in human history that humans have written with their thumbs."

   12. JHJonathan Haidt7:56

       (laughs) Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman7:56

       Implying that the brain representation of the thumbs-

   14. JHJonathan Haidt7:58

       Yeah. Ah. Right.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman7:58

       ... is probably very different in all of us-

   16. JHJonathan Haidt8:01

       Right.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman8:01

       ... um, than it was, uh, prior to that because the brain is an adaptive map of-

   18. JHJonathan Haidt8:05

       Mm-hmm.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman8:05

       ... of our experience in many ways. That's a somewhat innocuous example of the changes that have occurred-

   20. JHJonathan Haidt8:11

       Yeah.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman8:11

       ... of the use of the digits, uh, the thumbs, uh, to write, but there's so much more going on-

   22. JHJonathan Haidt8:17

       Mm-hmm.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman8:18

       ... now as a consequence of smartphones. So if you were to say the day, the date, the year in which everything changed-

   24. JHJonathan Haidt8:28

       Mm-hmm.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman8:28

       ... would it be the day that most everyone had and has a smartphone, um, somewhere around 2010, 2011-

   26. JHJonathan Haidt8:36

       Mm-hmm.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman8:36

       ... 2012, or did all this start prior?

   28. JHJonathan Haidt8:38

       Right.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman8:39

       Yeah.

   30. JHJonathan Haidt8:39

       Well, actually, if it's okay with you, I'll answer that by giving sort of the, the history 'cause the, the, the short answer would be 2010 to 2015, but it'll make more sense if I just sort of go through how we got there. So changes in technology, when you connect people more, you get roads, you get telephones, these things are all great. Um, they lead to massive gains in knowledge, productivity. Yes, sometimes there are disruptions, but in the history of humanity, they've been great. Um, the internet was that when, you know, you and I are old enough to remember. Do you remember the first time you saw a web browser?
4. 12:48 – 16:26

   Mental Health Trends: Boys, Girls & Smartphones

   1. AHAndrew Huberman12:48

      Talk to us about the scary statistics. There's just no way around this.

   2. JHJonathan Haidt12:52

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman12:53

      And we will talk about solutions, you offer some incredible solutions in the book. Actually, solutions that everyone listening and watching can participate in.

   4. JHJonathan Haidt13:00

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman13:01

      Not just by restriction. We'll talk about what that means, uh, going forward. But where are we at now and when did we start to see the trend toward diminished mental health, in particular, in girls?

   6. JHJonathan Haidt13:14

      Yeah.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman13:15

      So, feel free to-

   8. JHJonathan Haidt13:16

      Mm-hmm.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman13:16

      ... hit us with the, with the scary truth.

   10. JHJonathan Haidt13:18

       Okay, sure. So let's imagine, so in the US we have really good statistics based on annual or biannual surveys. There's three or four big ones that allow us to see what's happened since the '70s. And so what I'd like listeners to imagine is imagine a bunch of lines, maybe a line for boys, maybe a line, a line for boys, a line for girls, showing the percentage that suffer from anxiety, depression or that have self-harmed. Those three really go together. And imagine these lines, they move around a little bit, but they're actually pretty stable from the 1990s all the way through 2010, even 2011. There's no sign of a problem. On some measures, they're getting actually a little bit better, because-

   11. AHAndrew Huberman13:54

       So stable and low?

   12. JHJonathan Haidt13:55

       Stable, well, low, you know, if it's, if there are around, say, 12, 15% of girls, uh, qualify as having had a major depression, you know, that's much higher than we would like, um, that's a problem, but it's nothing compared to what it is today. So the lines are pret- pretty flat until around 2012, and then all of a sudden, the lines for girls go up like a hockey stick. It's not a subtle thing, it really is. There's an elbow, it's like somebody turned on a light switch in 2012. Um, now that's for the American data. Um, internationally, you see very similar things. It's not necessarily 2012 in other countries. But the girls' graphs are very sharp. The boys are also up, on depression and anxiety, they're also way up. Depending on the measure, it's usually, e- e- everything is in the ballpark of 50% to 150%. Almost all the numbers are in that range. Um, we're not talking 10% or 20% increases here. For most things, we're talking close to a doubling, especially for the younger girls. The boys' curves, interestingly, are smoother. That is, the boys are more depressed and anxious, it's n- but it's not 2012. It, it actually often begins more like 2009, 2010, and then just keeps going up gradually. So that, that's a real clue, um, uh, which we'll come back to when we talk about the, the boys' story. Um, i- uh, a lot of people say, "Oh, well, you know, it's just self-report, um, you know, just the, the Gen Z, they're really, they're really, um, positive about mental health and they're willing to talk about it, it's a good thing." But the fact that we see the exact same curves, the very sharp uptick for girls, um, in hospital admissions for self-harm, psychiatric emergency department visits, and we see this in the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, uh, the UK, uh, the Scandinavian countries. So something happened across the developed world, um, around 2012. And I keep, you know, Jean Twenge was the first to really raise the alarm. She and I keep saying, "Well, you know, we can't find another candidate, nothing else fits the pattern. Oh, and there's actually not just correlational data, there's experimental, uh, experimental data too." So we think, you know, of course, look, everything's complicated, mental health is complicated. I- if you wanna understand why one person is depressed, there are gonna be many stories. But if you wanna understand why depression rates rose for girls faster than boys all over the developed world, unless someone can find like some hormone-disrupting chemical that was suddenly sprayed over Northern Europe and, and the South Pacific and the US and Canada around 2012, there is no oth- there is no alternative explanation.

5. 16:26 – 20:40

   Smartphone Usage, Play-Based to Phone-Based Childhood

   1. JHJonathan Haidt16:27

   2. AHAndrew Huberman16:27

      So we break down smartphone use in these, uh, young girls that correlates with and maybe is causal for this diminishment in mental health. There are a number of different variables, right? There's the time spent on the phone. There's the specific content that they're viewing, and that's a vast discussion that we'll get into.

   3. JHJonathan Haidt16:50

      Mm-hmm.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman16:50

      There are the social dynamics associated with being on a phone as opposed to in-person interactions. And then there's, and I can't help myself, but as a neuroscientist who trained in the biology of the visual system, there's the effect of looking at something at about eight inches to 12 inches away from you for much of the day, as opposed to (laughs) navigating an environment the way that we had for hundreds of thousands of years prior. So there are a lot of features within this thing that we call smartphone use.

   5. JHJonathan Haidt17:17

      That's right.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman17:18

      There's also the disruption in sleep.

   7. JHJonathan Haidt17:20

      Yep.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman17:21

      There's e- additional blue light exposure. There's just so much to it.

   9. JHJonathan Haidt17:24

      Exactly.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman17:25

       So if we pool all that together for the time being and, and put it in a basket of smartphone use, and maybe we'll, we'll pull out each of those variables one by one as we go forward, what are the numbers in 2012 in terms of how much time girls, maybe you can give us an age range, are spending with a smartphone? Was it they got the smartphone and immediately were spending six to eight hours a day on the thing?

   11. JHJonathan Haidt17:48

       Yeah.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman17:48

       Or w- has it been gradual? So let's, let's start with the time, the time variable.

   13. JHJonathan Haidt17:52

       Sure. Okay. So first, the way you put it is actually very helpful. Um, what I want listeners to imagine, l- let's say, like imagine on the left side of a slide, I, I haven't made the slide, I'm formulating it in my head. Imagine on the left side of the slide a whole bunch of harmful changes. If you're getting less sleep, that's bad. If you're having blue light at night, that's bad. If you're not going out in nature, that's bad. If you are sedentary, if you... So, so imagine about, you know, 15 different things. Or if you're being contacted by strange men around the world who wanna have sex with you, like, that's not good for 11, 12-year-old girls. So it's all these different potential harms, and then imagine all these different potential effects, one of which is depression and another is anxiety, another is self-harm, but there's doing worse in school, there's becoming more shallow, there's, uh, conflicts with your... So there's a whole bunch. And then we wanna look at the causal connections, and what I'm trying to d- draw out is suppose y- we, suppose we could quantify the degree to which sheer time, just spending five hours a day, does that make you more anxious automatically? W- well, maybe a little, um, but that's probably not the main effect.So, there's a gigantic multi-causal network of effects. Now, um, w- I have good numbers for how much the, how much teens are using these devices and these platforms today. Um, Pew, in particular did a, has done a great job of, of tracking changes i- in this since the earl- since the 2000s. What we know today from both Pew and Gallup is that young people in America are now spending about five hours a day just on social media, just social media. That includes-

   14. AHAndrew Huberman19:26

       Mostly Instagram?

   15. JHJonathan Haidt19:27

       ... uh, no. So i- i- it, the, the huge time suck is the videos. So it's actually TikTok and YouTube are counted in this analysis. They're counted as social media. YouTube is marginally social media. It's more of an i- general information source. But the point is, e- especially the short videos. The short videos are really, really addictive 'cause the time between action and reinforcement is so quick that that... as you know, in behaviorism, like, that's the key. It's the quick reinforcement. Um, so five hours a day. Uh, it's a little bit more than that for girls, a little less for boys. Just on social media, 35 hours a week of strange stuff coming in from random weirdos on the internet. 35 hour- imagine letting your kid in port 35 hours. Um, then you add in everything else, video games, um, everything else you do on a smartphone. So now we're up to seven to 10 hours, in that range, a day. And this is not counting school. Now, of course, in school six hours a day, for a lot of kids two or three hours of s- of that is screen time as well. So that's why I say kids used to have a play-based childhood. Play is the basic thing mammals do. Um, and since 2010 or 2012, our kids have a phone-based childhood. And I don't think that is, uh, it, it's just incompatible with healthy human development.

6. 20:40 – 28:13

   The Tragedy of Losing Play-Based Childhood

   1. AHAndrew Huberman20:40

      Maybe we can back up even before 2010 and talk a bit more about the play-based childhood. Uh, I heard you say last night at a terrific lecture that you gave that when we don't trust our neighbors, we are far less likely to let our kids out to play without observation or oversight. Um, and that leads to a whole host of negative consequences. So if we were to dial back the, the history clock even further and talk about, let's say, the 1950s, '60s and '70s-

   2. JHJonathan Haidt21:13

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman21:13

      ... I was born in '75.

   4. JHJonathan Haidt21:14

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman21:15

      I basically was kicked out of the house every day to go play.

   6. JHJonathan Haidt21:17

      Right. Exactly.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman21:17

      My mom would say, "Get out of the house." I now realize she wanted space.

   8. JHJonathan Haidt21:21

      Yeah. Yeah.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman21:21

      But we would go down the end of street to the cul-de-sac and we would just play-

   10. JHJonathan Haidt21:25

       Mm-hmm.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman21:25

       ... and do all sorts of things, some of which were-

   12. JHJonathan Haidt21:26

       Get into a little trouble, adventure. Yeah. Yeah.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman21:27

       ... destructive, some of which were, were good. Um, and there were a lot of dynamics that got worked out in that process.

   14. JHJonathan Haidt21:34

       Exactly. Mm-hmm.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman21:34

       My sister would go hang out with the, basically the older sisters of those boys. That's kind of how our neighborhood-

   16. JHJonathan Haidt21:38

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman21:39

       ... happened to be arranged. It wa- that was fortunate. Um, and they would do their thing.

   18. JHJonathan Haidt21:43

       Mm-hmm.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman21:44

       So 1950s and '60s, what did social dynamics look like among kids?

   20. JHJonathan Haidt21:49

       Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, so, you know, I think what we need to do is tell this story of what happened as a, as a, a tragedy in three acts. And the first act is the loss of ch- of community, the loss of trust in each other. So if we go back to the, the '50s and '60s, um, but we can even go back, my ch- my parents grew up in New York City in the, in the '30s and '40s. Um, people spontaneously organize themselves into villages. Village life is a, it seems to be sort of the default way of living that humans have preferred for tens, you know, for, you know, thou- several thousand years. Um, and it's where you know your neighbors, the kids run around, the, all the adults take part in supervising all the kids. Uh, but nobody has to helicopter because the kids are playing, they're doing their thing. If there's a real threat, if there's a lion or invaders, then they all come running home, whatever. But, um, but k- kids need to be out playing with each other, especially outdoors. We evolved in savannas, we evolved in different parts of the world, we're attracted to nature. Um, so that's the way it, it always was. Now, uh, especially if we... i- in the 1950s and '60s, America had just been through a world war and the greatest way to make people trust each other, the greatest way to boost social capital is a foreign attack. And, of course, Pearl Harbor did more for American co- coherence than anything else in history, in modern history. 9/11 did that too, but only for a little while and then we, we lost it. Um, so for a l- lot of reasons, people trusted their neighbors, kids were out playing. You know, my parents grew up in The Depression in New York City, the kids were all out playing stick ball on the street or in a parking lot. In the 1970s, there is a real crime wave. Um, crime goes through the roof actually, and it goes through the '80s, that goes all the way to the early '90s. Even still, you were kicked out of the house to go play. Um, even in New York City, all kids went out to play. T- that's just the way it was. But we'd begin to lose trust in each other for a lot of reasons. Robert Putnam wrote about this in Bowling Alone, the, the, the loss of social capital. Uh, many reasons for that, the changing media environment, air conditioning and television w- people are not hanging out on their porch in the summertime to get away from the heat. They close the door and they put on the AC and they watch TV. Family sizes are shrinking. There are not that many kids around. So for a lot of reasons, by the ni- the '90s is the key decade where act two of the tragedy happens, and that's the loss of the play-based childhood. So in America and Britain, we freaked out about child abduction and child sexual abuse. Um, some of the scandals were real. The Boy Scouts, the Catholic Church, there were cases where trusted organizations were covering up abuse.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman24:26

       And I recall the abduction thing, the milk carton-

   22. JHJonathan Haidt24:29

       Yep.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman24:29

       ... thing.

   24. JHJonathan Haidt24:29

       That's right.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman24:30

       And there was a show, I think My Name is Brian-

   26. JHJonathan Haidt24:33

       America's Most Wo- oh, okay.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman24:33

       ... you know, about the kid who was abducted and then all he remembered, I think it's a true story, was that his name was Brian. He would just remind himself every night-

   28. JHJonathan Haidt24:41

       Oh. Oh, gosh.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman24:41

       ... about his real name, you know. I think they found him eventually in Berkeley.

   30. JHJonathan Haidt24:45

       (gasps) Mm-hmm.
7. 28:13 – 30:02

   Sponsor: AG1

   1. JHJonathan Haidt28:13

   2. AHAndrew Huberman28:13

      As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for more than 10 years now. So I'm delighted that they're sponsoring this podcast. To be clear, I don't take AG1 because they're a sponsor. Rather, they are a sponsor because I take AG1. In fact, I take AG1 once and often twice every single day, and I've done that since starting way back in 2012. There is so much conflicting information out there nowadays about what proper nutrition is. But here's where there seems to be a general consensus on. Whether you're an omnivore, a carnivore, a vegetarian, or a vegan, I think it's generally agreed that you should get most of your food from unprocessed or minimally processed sources, which allows you to eat enough but not overeat, get plenty of vitamins and minerals, probiotics and micronutrients that we all need for physical and mental health. Now, I personally am an omnivore, and I strive to get most of my food from unprocessed or minimally processed sources. But the reason I still take AG1 once and often twice every day is that it ensures I get all of those vitamins, minerals, probiotics, et cetera, but it also has adaptogens to help me cope with stress. It's basically a nutritional insurance policy meant to augment, not replace, quality food. So by drinking a serving of AG1 in the morning and again in the afternoon or evening, I cover all of my foundational nutritional needs. And I, like so many other people that take AG1, report feeling much better in a number of important ways, such as energy levels, digestion, sleep, and more. So while many supplements out there are really directed towards obtaining one specific outcome, AG1 is foundational nutrition designed to support all aspects of wellbeing related to mental health and physical health. If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer. They'll give you five free travel packs with your order plus a year supply of vitamin D3 K2. Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman.

8. 30:02 – 37:31

   Girls vs. Boys, Interests & Trapping Kids

   1. AHAndrew Huberman30:02

      Okay, so we've got three acts, all of which are tragedies.

   2. JHJonathan Haidt30:06

      Yep. Loss of community.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman30:07

      Right. So community and trust is down.

   4. JHJonathan Haidt30:09

      That's right. Which then makes us not ... Then act two is we take away the play-based childhood 'cause we're so afraid 'cause we no longer trust our neighbors. And then act three is as long as the kids are, are inside and, and on, on computers already, oh, well now just a smartphone and a tablet. These are just cooler computers. Nothing wrong with that, right? And that's what we thought early on. In the early 2010s, we thought these things were miraculous. Oh, you know, if my kids use them, maybe they'll be the next Steve Jobs. Maybe they'll, you know, they'll be really technically sophisticated, we thought. And it's not true.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman30:42

      And now we're in this third act of the tragedy. You touched on some of the male-female differences.

   6. JHJonathan Haidt30:48

      Mm-hmm.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman30:48

      Um, maybe you could, uh, talk about those a little bit more. So, you said girls tend to focus more on social dynamics, boys more on systems. Um, I've heard you say that the boys, in general-... veer toward more, for lack of a better way to put it, more on the spectrum-

   8. JHJonathan Haidt31:04

      Yeah.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman31:05

      ... type behaviors. Could you elaborate on that and-

   10. JHJonathan Haidt31:06

       Yeah.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman31:07

       ... how it impacts online, um, use and the particular sites that they tend to gravitate towards? And then on the, on the other side, uh, for girls.

   12. JHJonathan Haidt31:14

       Mm-hmm. Yeah. The, the, the, one of the psychological traits that is the biggest differentiator between boys and girls and between men and women, it's, it's... Let, let me state clearly. The sex differences in ability are generally pretty small, and they're few and far between. Sex differences in interest are all over the place, and they're often very large, and they're true across cultures and some are true across species. Um, it's, it's what do you enjoy. And so, um, and here I'm drawing on the work of, of Simon Baron-Cohen, who's the c- cousin of Sacha Baron-Cohen-

   13. AHAndrew Huberman31:47

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JHJonathan Haidt31:47

       ... um, in the UK. And, uh, Baron-Cohen's work on autism shows that, um, uh, y- you know, be- because of prenatal effects, prenatal testosterone changing the body, changing the brain, we all start off as girls in utero a- after conception. But then the 10th week of gestation, if there's a Y chromosome, it triggers a little bit of, uh, of testosterone, which then makes the testes develop and then that s- creates testosterone. And all of this, the effect on the brain, appears to be a shift away, a little bit away from empathizing. In Baron-Cohen's terms, there's, you can either be a high empathizer or you can be a high systemizer. Systemizers are people who love subway maps and they pick 'em up quickly and they like programming and they like to see how systems are related. It's possible to be high on both, but most people are more one way than the other. So once you see that, now you can understand why this amazing new internet drew everybody, but it drew the boys and the girls to different parts of it. Uh, and so, you know, a metaphor that I, I've started using these days, uh, actually I did get this from Yascha Mounk, has a great book called The Identity Trap. And Yascha points out that a trap has to have bait in it that's attractive. There has to be something that makes the creature want to go into the trap. And then once they get the bait, there has to be something that prevents them from leaving. That's what a trap is. And, uh, in this case, if you wanna catch a girl, don't show her like the operating system of a computer. Don't show her war games. Show her what Maria just said about Julia, uh, or what Julia just said about her. "Do you wanna know?" Of course you wanna know. Um, and, uh, everybody does, but girls more than boys, they wanna understand the social dynamics. So the girls go rushing into Instagram where everyone's posting photos of themselves, of other people, of the party they were at. The girls go rushing into, uh, well, social media in general, Instagram, uh, Pinterest and, um, Tumblr were the three big ones that girls went into in the 20, early 2010s. And then once they take the bait, they can't escape, because now that everyone is talking on Instagram, let's say, if you leave, you're alone. You know, you're not gonna talk to anyone. So that's how you trap girls, and that's what happened to girls. How do you trap boys? What are the things that boys most wanna do? If you let them do whatever they want, what are the two things that really attract them? One is war and the other is sex. So, um, if you say, "Do you wanna watch, you know, a movie that has violence in it?" Or, you know, "Do you wanna watch sports, which is play war?" Boys are more likely to say yes.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman34:21

       Or play a first person shooter game.

   16. JHJonathan Haidt34:23

       Exactly. That's right.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman34:24

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JHJonathan Haidt34:24

       So it's, so it's hunting and it's war. Um, and if you can simulate that, you know, when I was a kid, that was the beginning, I mean, I remember playing Sea Wolf. Like, you shoot missile, you shoot s- uh, you know, torpedoes at a boat in the distance.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman34:37

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JHJonathan Haidt34:37

       And it was very primitive technology.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman34:38

       Or even Battleship.

   22. JHJonathan Haidt34:39

       Batt- yeah. Oh, that's right.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman34:40

       Right?

   24. JHJonathan Haidt34:40

       Even Battleship. That's right. That's right. It was-

   25. AHAndrew Huberman34:41

       That was a, that was a big deal.

   26. JHJonathan Haidt34:42

       Yeah, that's right. These little plastic boats.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman34:44

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JHJonathan Haidt34:44

       That's right.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman34:44

       Yes. Sinking somebody else's battleship by-

   30. JHJonathan Haidt34:46

       Yep. Yeah.
9. 37:31 – 41:47

   “Effectance,” Systems & Relationships, Animals

   1. JHJonathan Haidt37:31

      there's an important psychological word called effectance, uh, made up by White in the 1950s. Effectance is the desire to be a cause. I had this effect on the world.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman37:42

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JHJonathan Haidt37:43

      And, you know, a, a, a, a nine-month-old infant in the crib, when he discovers if I pull this, if I hit this, a sound happens. It's thrilling. You did that. And this stays with us for life. You wanna see that the things you do have an effect. And especially boys are more in the, in the physical world, you know, mechanical world. And so shooting a gun, I remember when I was a kid, you know, I had a BB gun that I bought at a church bazaar. I hi- I hid it from my mother, kept it in the closet. But my best friend and I, you know, we'd set up cans on a row and you shoot them and it, boom, it, you know, you knock it... It's amazing. It's thrilling.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman38:19

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JHJonathan Haidt38:19

      Um, that does seem to be a sex difference. Now girls, I think, now here I'm speculating, but girls seem to be more interested in having an effect in the social world. Um, so everybody wants to have an effect, but boys are f- more focused on mechanics, girls a bit more on, on relationships and the social world.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman38:35

      And I'm sure, um, Freud had a field day with this, but, um, what is the apparent, I don't have the numbers on this, o- obsession of, of girls and horses and care-taking-

   7. JHJonathan Haidt38:46

      Oh.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman38:47

      ... of animals?

   9. JHJonathan Haidt38:48

      Um, um-

   10. AHAndrew Huberman38:48

       And, and yet there's-

   11. JHJonathan Haidt38:49

       Yeah.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman38:49

       ... also a lot of wonderful stories about boys taking care of dogs.

   13. JHJonathan Haidt38:52

       Mm-hmm.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman38:52

       Like, I read Where the Red Fern Grows maybe 50 times.

   15. JHJonathan Haidt38:55

       Mm-hmm.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman38:55

       And I love dogs. I love taking care of, raising my dog. But there's, there seems to be something about, um, the stereotype is girls and horses or...

   17. JHJonathan Haidt39:04

       Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Um, well, so the simple part is, uh, girls on average are a little bit more compassionate. They feel the pain of creatures more. Boys are more into animal cruelty, uh, as a fun thing to do, an interesting-

   18. AHAndrew Huberman39:17

       That's di- that's disappointing.

   19. JHJonathan Haidt39:17

       ... thing to do, effect. Um, so girls are, are more compassionate. Girls tend more to want to be a veterinarian than boys do 'cause girls love animals. Um, my daughter was desperate for a pet. And we, we got her, um, a leopard gecko when she was about eight or nine.

   20. AHAndrew Huberman39:34

       Those are cool.

   21. JHJonathan Haidt39:34

       They're really cool. But she, you know, she was crying one day 'cause she could tell, like, "It's never gonna love me." You know? And she desperately wanted-

   22. AHAndrew Huberman39:42

       Or if it doesn't, you don't know, maybe its blinks or I don't have the-

   23. JHJonathan Haidt39:44

       Well, it's... No, it's a rep-

   24. AHAndrew Huberman39:44

       Yeah.

   25. JHJonathan Haidt39:44

       No, it's a reptile.

   26. AHAndrew Huberman39:45

       Yeah.

   27. JHJonathan Haidt39:45

       No, they're not, they're not mammals.

   28. AHAndrew Huberman39:46

       Yeah.

   29. JHJonathan Haidt39:46

       They don't have the bond.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman39:47

       Right.
10. 41:47 – 49:19

    Boys Sexual Development, Dopamine Reinforcement & Pornography

    1. JHJonathan Haidt41:47

       but you know what I'd, what I'd really like to do with you now, as long as we're talking about sort of, you know, these developmental pathways, um, I'm hoping that we can talk about... Oh, oh, let's do, let's stay on sexual development.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman41:58

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JHJonathan Haidt41:58

       Uh, 'cause this is something, I just have a little section in the book. Uh, in the chapter on boys, I have a section where, where I review the research on pornography. And, you know, huge amounts of study of pornography over the years. Um, uh, but the hardcore pornography, high resolution video, um, boys watching it for, you know, y- many boys... Well, a large number of boys, um, um, are, are, you know, go every day to pornography sites, often more than once a day. Um, so I'd love to hear your thoughts on how that would... You know, how is that gonna change sexual development during puberty? A boy who starts at, say, at age 12 or 13 and does it for 10 years. Could we expect that that boy will be different with, w- when he's 22? His dating life will be different? His... Tell me what you th- you think is happening there.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman42:47

       Yeah.

    5. JHJonathan Haidt42:47

       In the brain and socially and hormonally.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman42:49

       Sure. Absolutely. And I'm not going to demonize pornography nor am I going to celebrate it. Uh, all I'll say is that my understanding of the dopamine r- reinforcement system, and I like to call it a reinforcement system as opposed to a reward system because people generally think that dopamine and dopamine hits relate to pleasure.But dopamine is more of a motivator. As a neuromodulator, it creates a, kind of an agitation state-

    7. JHJonathan Haidt43:13

       To want more.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman43:14

       ... that puts us in a state of focus and foraging-

    9. JHJonathan Haidt43:16

       Mm-hmm.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman43:17

        ... to resolve some gap between how we feel and how we'd like to feel-

    11. JHJonathan Haidt43:20

        Mm-hmm.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman43:20

        ... by seeking things like sex, like food when we're hungry, like warmth when we're cold-

    13. JHJonathan Haidt43:24

        Mm-hmm.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman43:24

        ... like cool when we're too warm. It's a universal currency of pursuit-

    15. JHJonathan Haidt43:29

        Okay.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman43:29

        ... of craving and wanting as opposed to having.

    17. JHJonathan Haidt43:31

        Mm-hmm. Okay.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman43:32

        Dopamine does a lot more than that, um, and other neuromodulators are involved in wanting and craving, but dopamine is central to that.

    19. JHJonathan Haidt43:39

        Mm-hmm.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman43:40

        So, I think it's not just fair to say, but it's a ground truth that whether or not it's a drug like methamphetamine, cocaine, crack cocaine in particular, or some other drug that hits the system fast and creates a big, big inflection in dopamine-

    21. JHJonathan Haidt43:57

        Mm-hmm.

    22. AHAndrew Huberman43:59

        ... that the more rapid the rise in dopamine, the bigger the crash in dopamine afterwards and the more miserable you feel afterwards.

    23. JHJonathan Haidt44:07

        Mm-hmm.

    24. AHAndrew Huberman44:08

        And the more repeat of the behavior that initiate the peak will occur.

    25. JHJonathan Haidt44:15

        Hm.

    26. AHAndrew Huberman44:15

        AKA addiction-

    27. JHJonathan Haidt44:16

        Okay.

    28. AHAndrew Huberman44:17

        ... or at least extreme habit formation, depending on how one defines those. When it comes to dopamine, the other key thing to know is that dopamine, in particular, high inflections in dopamine, big peaks in dopamine that occur without much effort-

    29. JHJonathan Haidt44:33

        Hm.

    30. AHAndrew Huberman44:33

        ... in particular the kinds of effort that evolved to bring about the-
11. 49:19 – 55:24

    Boys, Courtship, Chivalry & Technology; Gen Z Development

    1. JHJonathan Haidt49:19

       Wow. Andrew, thank you. That was a really powerful and clear description of what I was trying to say in the book coming just from the psychological side, which is, um, (sighs) to, to turn from a boy into a man, there's a certain amount of toughening and skill-building. There's skills that have to be developed. And I'm so glad you used the word courtship. I use that word a lot with my students. I almost... I hear almost nobody else using that word. It's such an important word, uh, because we did evolve the ability to pair-bond, at least temporarily, and we do have courtship, and it has to start slowly. You... If you jump into bed and have sex right away, there's no chance of courtship. It's... That part is over. And, um, so, you know, as you were talking, I was really trying to... I was thinking, and I want the, you know, listeners to imagine. Imagine one 13-year-old boy, um, who, you know, really wants sex, would like to have a girlfriend, but he has... He has a laptop, he has a phone, he has Pornhub. Um, he masturbates two or three times a day. Uh, he'd still like to have a girlfriend, but he's sexually satisfied because he has all this amazing pornography. Um, and he does this every day for 10 years, until he's 23, let's say. And then we have another boy who, you know, maybe he has a Playboy magazine, or maybe he has nothing. Maybe he just has his imagination. He masturbates occasionally, as boys do. Um, but he doesn't have the hardcore porn. He doesn't have the fast dopamine. And then this second boy, he puts more effort into actually having a girlfriend, and he learns how to talk to girls, and he, and he... He's flirting, and one is interested in him. Um, and then they have their first kiss. And, you know... 'Cause I'm remembering back when I was, you know, a, a teenager and in my 20s, the most beautiful golden days, I mean, the most memorable days of my life, it was those days when you have that first kiss and you know, like, "Oh, this, this is gonna turn into something."

    2. AHAndrew Huberman51:10

       Everything sparkles after that.

    3. JHJonathan Haidt51:11

       Yeah. Everything sparkles.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman51:12

       Yeah.

    5. JHJonathan Haidt51:12

       But the point is, it's slow, and it's hard work. And then when you finally do have sex, you know, it's not like, "Oh, dopamine crash. Now get out of here." It's, it's... As you said, it's like, "Ah." You know, prolactin rise. You know, you hug, you hold, you hold the girl. Um, and, you know, at some point you start thinking about marriage. Like, you start to think, like, "Is this the one?"

    6. AHAndrew Huberman51:34

       Mm-hmm.

    7. JHJonathan Haidt51:34

       I mean, you know, crazy thoughts like that. You can't help but think that when you're falling in love. And I t- ... At NYU, I teach an undergrad course, and I also teach an MBA course. Now, the MBAs are all on the dating apps. They're in their late 20s. They're all on the dating apps. The undergrads, some of them are on dating apps, but they're... You know, they're 19. They're mostly dating in their, in their circles. And for the MBAs, I really have to work with them to see that, that these dating apps are cutting off courtship in a lot of ways. I mean, yes, you're texting, but it's not the same. So, um, so I'm so glad you explained a lot about that. One is the fast. It's the fast satisfaction that prevents you from learning, whereas slow, hard work towards a biological goal like sex or dating or marriage or love is what builds you up into a competent man. Who would want to hire, or who would want to date? Let's put it that way. Who would want to date the kid who'd been masturbating three times a day to porn since he was 13? So, yeah. Yeah.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman52:28

       Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and there's all sorts of things. I mean, my father's Argentine, moved, moved to the States in, in the late '60s, and so I was raised in a fairly traditional home with the... from the perspective of masculine-feminine roles.

    9. JHJonathan Haidt52:41

       Mm-hmm.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman52:41

        Um, and there were all these things around chivalry.

    11. JHJonathan Haidt52:43

        Mm-hmm.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman52:43

        Like, I remember going to my first junior high school dance, and my dad gave me this whole tutorial about holding the door and how to-

    13. JHJonathan Haidt52:48

        Mm-hmm.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman52:49

        ... what... You know, it's interesting that nowadays, um, guys are often judged in terms of their latency to respond to text messages.

    15. JHJonathan Haidt52:57

        Hmm.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman52:57

        You know, um, something I'm terrible at. Um, and it's interesting that that's sort of replaced chivalry, like, how responsive somebody is.

    17. JHJonathan Haidt53:06

        Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman53:06

        So, there's a kind of a bleeding for it. As long as we're, we're just being very open about the past, present, and, and perhaps future of this stuff. I remember growing up and hearing stories. This wasn't how my childhood went, but I remember my dad telling me, you know, in Argentina, the young boys, when they would hit puberty-

    19. JHJonathan Haidt53:22

        Mm-hmm.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman53:22

        ... used to be taken to prostitutes-

    21. JHJonathan Haidt53:23

        Hmm.

    22. AHAndrew Huberman53:23

        ... so they would learn how to have sex. I mean, that's how-

    23. JHJonathan Haidt53:26

        Wow.

    24. AHAndrew Huberman53:26

        I mean, that wasn't that long ago.

    25. JHJonathan Haidt53:28

        Wow.

    26. AHAndrew Huberman53:28

        Okay? That wasn't my childhood. And I remember thinking-

    27. JHJonathan Haidt53:30

        That's insane.

    28. AHAndrew Huberman53:30

        ... like, "What's h- ... You know, is this... Uh, is this what's going to happen next?" And... But he was explaining that's kind of how it went.

    29. JHJonathan Haidt53:35

        Hmm.

    30. AHAndrew Huberman53:35

        That doesn't tend to happen anymore, as I understand.
12. 55:24 – 59:48

    Play & Low-Stakes Mistakes, Video Games & Social Media, Conflict Resolution

    1. JHJonathan Haidt55:24

    2. AHAndrew Huberman55:24

       So it sounds to me like boys on smartphones or ra- this is from the 2010 period forward.

    3. JHJonathan Haidt55:30

       Mm-hmm.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman55:30

       Um, are getting this kind of hyper stereotypical male experience.

    5. JHJonathan Haidt55:34

       Mm-hmm.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman55:34

       Uh, first person shooter games, pornography. Girls are getting this, um, hyper stereotypical female-

    7. JHJonathan Haidt55:40

       Exactly.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman55:40

       ... experience. Relational.

    9. JHJonathan Haidt55:41

       Exactly.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman55:41

        Highly relational. But there are certain dynamics that are missing, or certain components that are missing. Um, yesterday I heard you mention something very, very interesting to me, which is that in both groups it seems conflict and any kind of friction is not being resolved among the participants.

    11. JHJonathan Haidt56:02

        Mm-hmm.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman56:02

        But there's this sort of looking outward for some rule or policy-

    13. JHJonathan Haidt56:06

        Mm-hmm.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman56:07

        ... law or oversight to come in and intervene.

    15. JHJonathan Haidt56:09

        Yeah.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman56:09

        Um, could you talk a little bit about this?

    17. JHJonathan Haidt56:11

        Mm-hmm.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman56:11

        This relates in an interesting way to cancel culture.

    19. JHJonathan Haidt56:13

        Yeah, that's right.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman56:14

        Um.

    21. JHJonathan Haidt56:14

        That's right.

    22. AHAndrew Huberman56:14

        I would love to, to learn more about this.

    23. JHJonathan Haidt56:16

        Sure. So aggression, uh, is a part of human nature, as is cooperation. And they kind, they kind of have to go together. You know, to make it in this world, you have to be able to play politics, you have to have friends and allies, you have to stand up for yourself, um, you have to push back sometimes, but you have to learn to bury the hatchet. And, you know, if you grew up with siblings, you know, you're fighting every day and you're cooperating every day. It's very, and it's very important practice. And if you're playing, if you're playing sports outside with a bunch of kids in the neighborhood, you're making the rules every day, and then part of the import- part of what's important when kids are playing is the infractions. It's, it, it's every- the play stops, people come together. "You know, that was out of bounds." "No, it wasn't." "You pushed me." "No, I didn't." And then every, you know, everybody gets practice playing judge and jury, uh, because everyone wants the game to go on, so they're very motivated to, to work it out. Uh, you have to accept the judgment. What are you gonna do, storm off and go home, to protest? Then you look like a loser and you don't get to play anymore. So natural play with no adult forces the kids to learn social skills that are essential for democracy. How do we make rules together, just us? How do we decide how we're gonna govern ourselves? What do we do when it looks like someone violated a rule? Well, we're not just gonna kill them. We're not gonna expel them. We have to have a way of going on with the play. So these are such crucial skills for social development, for boys and for girls, and, um, and kids always learn to work that out. But what happens when the boys are growing up on video games, there are no disputes. There can't be a dispute, because the game, the software basically manages everything. There's no out of bounds or anything. Um, so, eh, the play is missing a lot of the, of the, of the key skills. Now, um, how are conflicts resolved? Well, on social media, instead of like a conflict that two girls might have had, just the two of them, or with like a group of four, which could get worked out very, very quickly, it's somebody posts something indirect, maybe it's an indirect criticism, and someone takes it in a way. Maybe it was intended that way, maybe it wasn't. But before you know it, it's accelerated. People are taking sides. It, it could blow up. You don't know how big it could get. It could be the whole school now gets drawn in. This is terrifying. So a really important idea about play is what's called low stakes mistakes. So if you make a mistake while playing soccer with your friends, uh, no big deal. Like, you know, f- it's a foul, redo, whatever it is. Um, but if you make a mistake on social media, it could blow up to the point where you are now a laughing stock, and when a kid, when a, especially in middle school, when a kid is a laughing stock, when everyone's laughing at them, that is v- likely to trigger thoughts even of suicide. Shame makes us want to disappear. And we're putting our kids... Our kids need to be immersed in small groups, small groups of other kids that are stable, somewhat stable over years. That's the healthiest environment. But instead we're mixing them in with pos- potentially gigantic groups, including strangers and people who are, uh, not engaging their normal empathy skills, but are being performative, judgmental, judging in order to be liked by others. So it's just an inhumane... It's a, it's a, it's an inhuman world in which to raise kids, and this is part of my point about the great rewiring. In 2010s, American kids still had a recognizably human childhood with a lot of time together with other friends. But that plunges in the 2010s, to the point where now childhood is largely happening alone on a screen.

13. 59:48 – 1:01:23

    Sponsor: LMNT

    1. JHJonathan Haidt59:48

    2. AHAndrew Huberman59:48

       I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT. LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need. That means the electrolytes sodium, magnesium, and potassium in the correct amounts and ratios, and nothing you don't, which means no sugar. Now, I and others on this podcast have talked about the critical importance of hydration for proper brain and body functioning. Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and physical performance. It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes. The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are critical for the functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons, your nerve cells. Drinking LMNT dissolved in water makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes. To make sure I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning. I'll also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot, losing water and electrolytes. They have a bunch of different great tasting flavors of LMNT. My favorite is the watermelon, although I confess I also like the raspberry and the citrus. Basically I like all the flavors. And LMNT has also just released a new line of canned sparkling LMNT, so these aren't the packets you dissolve in water. These are cans of LMNT that you crack open like any other canned drink, like a soda, but you're getting your hydration and your electrolytes with no sugar. If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to DrinkLMNT, spelled L-M-N-T, .com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with the purchase of any LMNT drink mix. Again, that's DrinkLMNT.com/huberman to claim a free sample

14. 1:01:23 – 1:06:47

    Social Media, Trolls, Performance

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:23

       pack.

    2. JHJonathan Haidt1:01:24

       I'll never forget in middle school being at some assembly and, um...

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:29

       ... a kid had got down on all fours behind me and someone pushed me.

    4. JHJonathan Haidt1:01:33

       Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I remember that trick.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:34

       You know, that- that game?

    6. JHJonathan Haidt1:01:34

       Oh, yeah.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:34

       I stood up and Kevin Gassman was just sitting there just cackling with his face-

    8. JHJonathan Haidt1:01:38

       Laughing. Uh-huh.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:39

       ... right in front of me so I hit him.

    10. JHJonathan Haidt1:01:40

        Uh-huh.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:40

        It turns out it wasn't Kevin that did it.

    12. JHJonathan Haidt1:01:41

        Aha.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:42

        And he hit me back and it was a disaster.

    14. JHJonathan Haidt1:01:43

        Aha.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:43

        And I don't remember how it panned out, but we ended up being friends.

    16. JHJonathan Haidt1:01:46

        Okay.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:46

        So it was kind of how things got worked out.

    18. JHJonathan Haidt1:01:47

        Well, that's right, conflict-

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:48

        You know.

    20. JHJonathan Haidt1:01:48

        ... conflict and cooperation, you need the two together.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:49

        Yeah, incredibly embarrassing both for getting pushed over and-

    22. JHJonathan Haidt1:01:52

        Right.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:52

        ... for hitting the wrong kid.

    24. JHJonathan Haidt1:01:53

        You learned you made a mistake and you-

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:54

        But credit for hitting somebody 'cause that's how boys work things out.

    26. JHJonathan Haidt1:01:56

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:57

        I'm not suggesting people do this, not- not suggesting violence and then both of us feeling silly and then ultimately-

    28. JHJonathan Haidt1:02:02

        Yeah. Yeah.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:02:03

        ... well, I don't know, I made it to the eighth grade somehow, right? (laughs)

    30. JHJonathan Haidt1:02:06

        That's right.
15. 1:06:47 – 1:10:15

    Dynamic Subordination, Hierarchy, Boys

    1. JHJonathan Haidt1:06:47

       Um, I just want to make a- one point. You took... that was an interesting concept there, what... something in subord- uh, subordination?

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:51

       Dynamic subordination.

    3. JHJonathan Haidt1:06:52

       Dynamic subordination.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:53

       Kinda like a flock of birds-

    5. JHJonathan Haidt1:06:54

       Yeah.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:54

       ... but... is how it was described to me, but... You know, I always thought in the- in the, you know, Tier 1, uh, special operations community that, you know, people would spend more years there, advance further and further-

    7. JHJonathan Haidt1:07:05

       Mm-hmm.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman1:07:06

       ... and that's true too, but- but this idea that it's just understood that the hierarchy evolves in real time-

    9. JHJonathan Haidt1:07:11

       Yeah.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman1:07:12

        ... and the- and the more, um, people embrace that-

    11. JHJonathan Haidt1:07:15

        Mm-hmm.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman1:07:15

        ... the better performing the group is as a pack.

    13. JHJonathan Haidt1:07:17

        Mm-hmm. Yeah. Now the word hierarchy certainly takes on a bad name especially like in our academic circles, hierarchy, you know, is bad and power is bad and- and subordination is... all these things are bad, power, you know, inequality.... but I think part of what's going on there, so, you know, I teach in a business school and there's a huge amount of writing on leadership. And, and I haven't read much of it, but, um, but a key idea that I, that I got, I'm trying to remember the author, um, is that the, the key puzzle is not why people want to be leaders, it's why do they want to be followers. Uh, we really need to study followership. And so people are willing to follow because part of our amazing human ability is to work together in groups to overcome obstacles. We don't have sharp teeth, we're not very... well, we're fast in long distance, but not in sprints. Um, but we're able to work together. Um, and when we face a common threat, we very willingly cede leadership to a leader, but we have to trust him, and if the leader shows that he's a narcissist, that he's putting himself first, that he's benefiting at our expense, we don't, we don't trust him. So what you need to do, and I think this is more clear, males are more hierarchical. This is true in chimpanzees as well. Males are, they're just, they take to hierarchy m- more readily. Um, males benefit from having practice, I don't think of it as dominance and submission, I think what you said is actually more eff- more effective. It's like, th- they need practice like being the leader of this project, and then being a follower because you grant like, yeah, you lead us on this, you take the lead on this, and then something else will reverse. And if you have a young man who has a lot of that experience, that's gonna be a young man that you will want to employ when he's in his mid-20s, whereas one who never had that is just gonna be much more difficult to work with in a, in a, in a business setting.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:57

        Yeah, the groups of boys I grew up with and men that I've worked with and been friends with, it's always been understood like this guy's really terrific for finding stuff, and this guy's great with vehicles, and this guy's great with girls, and this guy's gr- you know, that people have different skillsets-

    15. JHJonathan Haidt1:09:12

        Yeah.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:13

        ... and, and that the group together can really mesh, um, but there isn't an attempt to be something that you're not.

    17. JHJonathan Haidt1:09:19

        Mm-hmm.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:19

        And you quickly find out who you are by who you're not, and you find your unique skillset.

    19. JHJonathan Haidt1:09:24

        Yeah.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:24

        And, um, and you, you know, uh, you evolve in that way by not trying to be everything to everybody.

    21. JHJonathan Haidt1:09:33

        Mm-hmm.

    22. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:33

        Whereas I noticed with my sister and her groups of friends, it's changed over time, of course, but that there tended to be one girl that was really dominant in the play session.

    23. JHJonathan Haidt1:09:40

        Mm-hmm.

    24. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:40

        Like, the whole time.

    25. JHJonathan Haidt1:09:42

        Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, you're right.

    26. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:42

        The bossy one.

    27. JHJonathan Haidt1:09:43

        You're right.

    28. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:43

        You know.

    29. JHJonathan Haidt1:09:45

        Yeah.

    30. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:45

        Um, and even though some stories, you know, kids books with, that, that mainly feature boys have that, um, I, I don't recall that being such a big part of my, uh, reading experience or childhood experience, like in the Encyclopedia Brown books, like there was like the mean kid-
16. 1:10:15 – 1:14:00

    Girls & Perfectionism, Social Media & Performance

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:15

       Um, so you've got these social dynamics that are very, um, heightened being played out on social media with, with girls. But boys, and men are on there as well, and most of what's on social media is social, it's relational. So are boys and men being drawn more toward those sorts of interactions?

    2. JHJonathan Haidt1:10:36

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:36

       And how well are they navigating those interactions?

    4. JHJonathan Haidt1:10:38

       Yeah. Yeah.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:38

       Is it common for boys to make big mistakes online-

    6. JHJonathan Haidt1:10:42

       Mm-hmm.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:42

       ... and, um, and then be shunned as a consequence?

    8. JHJonathan Haidt1:10:45

       Yeah.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:45

       Or is this more common in, um, females?

    10. JHJonathan Haidt1:10:48

        Yeah. Uh, yeah, no, that, that, and that, that's a good question. Um, life online is performative. For girls, a much bigger element of the performance is perfectionism about the image.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:59

        Mm-hmm.

    12. JHJonathan Haidt1:11:00

        So girls spend a lot more time choosing a photograph, editing a photograph, making sure everything's perfect. Whereas guys, you know, like I literally don't notice if my socks don't match. My wife has to tell me, "Your socks don't match." Um, you know, guys just don't notice those things as much. So-

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:15

        You're a professor after all.

    14. JHJonathan Haidt1:11:16

        So, yeah, that's my-

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:17

        We absolutely are. We are.

    16. JHJonathan Haidt1:11:17

        ... professor I suppose, yeah. But my point is that, is that life online, it does affect all kids. So fear of missing out is something that affects everybody, you know. Y- on Snapchat you see all your friends over there and you didn't even know-

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:27

        Mm-hmm.

    18. JHJonathan Haidt1:11:27

        ... that there was something going on. So, you know, boys and g- again, boys and girls, they'll have similar insecurities, it's, it's more a question of degree. So the, the, the perfectionism, the, the playing out the social dynamics to three steps, like girls are playing three-dimensional chess about social relationships. "Well, but why did he say that if he also wanted this when she, he knows-"

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:50

        Oh, yeah.

    20. JHJonathan Haidt1:11:50

        "... that she knows that..." You know, and the guy's like, "What? I, what are you s- I don't even know what you're saying." Um-

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:54

        Right. They're, they're barely playing checkers.

    22. JHJonathan Haidt1:11:56

        That, uh, that's right. That's right. And again, it's that, it's that, um, uh, you know, it's that, the early, the, the organizing effects of prenatal hormones, this is not culturally taught, this is what kids enjoy doing based on, I believe, and Simon Baron-Cohen, I believe, believes, um, is the organizing, uh, prena- the prenatal organizing effects of hormones on the, on the developing brain.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:15

        But on YouTube where it's, my understanding, primarily male-

    24. JHJonathan Haidt1:12:18

        Mm-hmm. Yes.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:19

        ... there's a lot of clap back type comments. Um, I know this 'cause I have a YouTube channel.

    26. JHJonathan Haidt1:12:24

        Yeah, of course.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:24

        Um, and in the old days, it seems, it wasn't that long ago, when Rogan was, had full length episodes on YouTube, then he didn't, now he does again-

    28. JHJonathan Haidt1:12:33

        Mm-hmm.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:34

        ... the, the jokes, the comment section on YouTube were like their own show.

    30. JHJonathan Haidt1:12:38

        Mm-hmm.

Episode duration: 2:26:55