Skip to content
Huberman LabHuberman Lab

How to Achieve Inner Peace & Healing | Dr. Richard Schwartz

My guest is Dr. Richard Schwartz, Ph.D., therapist, author, and founder of Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy. We discuss how IFS views the mind as a collection of parts, each shaped by different life experiences—both good and bad, including trauma. To demonstrate how IFS works, Dr. Schwartz guides Dr. Huberman and you, the listener, through an example IFS session. We also explore how IFS and body awareness can help break harmful thought and behavior patterns, promote emotional healing, and build healthier relationships. Read the full episode show notes: https://go.hubermanlab.com/o5WihP4 *Thank you to our sponsors* AG1: https://drinkag1.com/huberman BetterHelp: https://betterhelp.com/huberman David Protein: https://davidprotein.com/huberman Wealthfront**: https://wealthfront.com/huberman Function: https://functionhealth.com/huberman _**This experience may not be representative of the experience of other clients of Wealthfront, and there is no guarantee that all clients will have similar experiences. Cash Account is offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC, Member FINRA/SIPC. The Annual Percentage Yield (“APY”) on cash deposits as of December 27,‬ 2024, is representative, subject to change, and requires no minimum. Funds in the Cash Account are swept to partner banks where they earn the variable‭ APY. Promo terms and FDIC coverage conditions apply. Same-day withdrawal or instant payment transfers may be limited by destination institutions, daily transaction caps, and by participating entities such as Wells Fargo, the RTP® Network, and FedNow® Service. New Cash Account deposits are subject to a 2-4 day holding period before becoming available for transfer._ *Follow Huberman Lab* Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hubermanlab Threads: https://www.threads.net/@hubermanlab X: https://x.com/hubermanlab Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/hubermanlab TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@hubermanlab LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-huberman Website: https://www.hubermanlab.com Newsletter: https://www.hubermanlab.com/newsletter *Dr. Richard Schwartz* IFS Institute: https://ifs-institute.com IFS profile: https://ifs-institute.com/about-us/richard-c-schwartz-phd X: https://x.com/DickSchwartzCSL Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Dr.DickSchwartz LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-schwartz-0a9a1b203 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@InternalFamilySystems *Timestamps* 00:00:00 Dr. Richard Schwartz 00:02:11 Internal Family Systems (IFS), Self & Parts 00:07:23 Sponsors: BetterHelp & David Protein 00:09:44 Trauma & Parts: Exiles, Roles, Critic, Managers, Firefighters 00:15:32 Frustration & Anger, Surrender & Perspective 00:19:35 Feelings, Curiosity & Self-Exploration, Protecting Other Parts 00:29:35 Exploration of Inner Frustration, Judgement, Firefighters, Protectors 00:40:04 Titanium Teddy Bear, The Self & Curiosity, Tool: The 8 C’s & Self 00:46:41 Sponsors: AG1 & Wealthfront 00:49:24 IFS Therapy, Self-Exploration 00:53:47 Role Confusion, Conflict, Self & Clarity; Legacy Burdens 01:00:26 Cognitive vs Somatic Feelings; Tools: Localize Body Feeling, Curiosity 01:04:11 IFS & Psychedelics, Ketamine, Big Self, Journal Retractions 01:11:18 Early Morning, Breathwork, Exiles & Healing 01:13:53 Sponsor: Function 01:15:41 Shame, Racism, Protectors & Carrying Burden, Compassion 01:21:29 Unhealthy Romantic Relationships, Child-Parent Relationship 01:27:06 Therapist, Self-Exploration, Protectors & Introduction to Self 01:31:08 Tool: Questions for a Self-Exploration of Internal Protectors 01:39:30 Writing, Forming New Relationships with Parts, Leading with Self 01:42:51 Protectors, Managers, Firefighters, Suicidal & Addiction Behaviors 01:48:37 Overworking, Fear, Mortality 01:54:35 Technology & Distraction, Exiles, Worthlessness 01:58:58 Psychiatry, Medicine, New Ideas 02:02:58 Culture & Expanding Problems, Activism & Self 02:10:39 Zero-Cost Support, YouTube, Spotify & Apple Follow & Reviews, Sponsors, YouTube Feedback, Protocols Book, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter #HubermanLab #Relationships Disclaimer & Disclosures: https://www.hubermanlab.com/disclaimer

Andrew HubermanhostDr. Richard Schwartzguest
Mar 3, 20252h 13mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:11

    Dr. Richard Schwartz

    1. AH

      (instrumental music) Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Richard Schwartz. Dr. Richard Schwartz is the founder of Internal Family Systems Therapy, which is a unique form of therapy that's less centered on your relationship to other people, but instead focuses mainly on identifying the parts of yourself and your personality that tend to emerge in different situations and that tend to create anxiety, resent, or depression. Another key feature of Internal Family Systems Therapy is that it's not just focused on fixing challenges within us, it also teaches you how to grow your confidence, openness, and compassion. Now, today's episode is different than any other episode of the podcast that we've done before, and that's for two reasons. First, Dr. Schwartz takes me through a brief session of IFS therapy so you can see exactly what it looks like in practice, and then he takes you, the listener, through it as well. So as you'll soon observe and experience, Internal Family Systems Therapy allows you to work through challenging sticking points, basically the parts or feelings within you that you don't like to have, and then it shows you how to convert those feelings into more functional aspects of yourself. So as you'll soon see, Internal Family Systems Therapy is both super interesting and it's an incredibly empowering practice. It's also a form of therapy that's now been studied and for which there's a lot of peer-reviewed science to support its efficacy. By the end of today's episode, Dr. Dick Schwartz will have shown you that a lot of the negative reactions that we tend to have with different people and things tend to originate from a few basic patterns that, once we understand, we can really transmute into more positive responses. It's a really interesting practice. It's one that you can apply today during the episode and that you can return to in order to apply going forward in your life. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Richard Schwartz.

  2. 2:11 – 7:23

    Internal Family Systems (IFS), Self & Parts

    1. AH

      Dr. Dick Schwartz, welcome.

    2. RS

      Thank you, Andrew. It's, it's, uh, delightful to be with you.

    3. AH

      Yeah. I've, uh, heard so much about you and your work and Internal Family Systems models. Um, I've had the opportunity to do a little bit of that work.

    4. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. AH

      Uh, to be honest, I don't know whether or not the person I did that work with, um, was formally trained in it.

    6. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    7. AH

      So, I'd like to start off by just asking you, what is Internal Family Systems, and what are the different components?

    8. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. AH

      And as we do that, I'm sure people are going to be thinking about these various components for their own life and the people in their lives.

    10. RS

      Great.

    11. AH

      So, yeah.

    12. RS

      Well, originally, I developed it as a form of psychotherapy, which is probably the way it's used most now, but it's also become a kind of life practice and a, just a, um, paradigm for understanding the human mind and, uh, it's an alternative to the culture's paradigm. So, that's, um, saying a lot, uh, and it's been quite a journey.

    13. AH

      I know of Freudian psychoanalysis. I know of, you know, any number of different branches of psychology that have a clinical slant to them.

    14. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    15. AH

      There's cognitive behavioral therapy.

    16. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    17. AH

      What are, what are the core components of Internal Family Systems?

    18. RS

      Yeah. So, one basic assumption is that the mind isn't unitary, that actually it's, uh, we're all multiple personalities, not in the diagnostic sense.

    19. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    20. RS

      But we all have these what I call parts, other systems call subpersonalities, ego states, things like that, uh, and that it's the natural state of the mind to be that way, that we're born with them because they're all very valuable and, uh, have qualities and resources to help us survive and, and thrive. But trauma and what's called attachment injuries and the slings and arrows we suffer force these little naturally valuable parts into roles that can be destructive. Often, they don't like it all, but because they're frozen often in time, in the, during the trauma, and they live as if it's still happening, they're in these protective roles that, uh, can be quite extreme and interfere in your life. And, uh, yeah, so I just stumbled onto the phenomena 40, now I think it's 41 years ago.

    21. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    22. RS

      And it's been, you know, amazing ride.

    23. AH

      So, at the time, were you already practicing as a clinical psychologist?

    24. RS

      Actually, I have a PhD in Marital and Family Therapy. So I was part of the movement in family therapy away from inter-psychic work. Uh, there was a polarization, and we thought we could reorganize families and heal all these symptoms just by doing that. We didn't have to muck around in the inner world. And I went to prove that, and this was about 1983, by getting a group of bulimic kids together and their families and tried to reorganize the families just the way the book said to and failed. They, the, the kids didn't realize they'd been cured, and they kept binging and purging. So out of frustration, I began asking, "Why?" And they started talking this language of parts. And they would say some version of, "When something happens ba- bad happens in my life, it triggers this critic who's calling me all kinds of names inside, and that goes right to the heart of a part that feels empty and alone and worthless. And that's so distressing to feel that the binge part comes in and takes me out, takes me away from all that pain. But the critic comes in and attacks me for the binge."... and then the criticism goes right to the heart of that, that worthless part. So to me, as a family therapist, this sounded like what I'd been studying in external families, these circular sequences of interaction, and so I just got curious and just started to explore.

    25. AH

      Are these different parts that exist within each and all of us, are they represented by a clear and distinct voice from the other, or do people typically experience them as just the self, like my inner critic? Uh, um, you'll give us the other names and titles. Um, or is this happening typically below people's conscious awareness?

    26. RS

      S- some of both. So most people are aware they're a critic, and, uh, but other, other times you're not aware of these parts we call exiles that you've locked away because you didn't want to feel their feelings. They're stuck in these bad trauma scenes, and to survive in your life, you had to push 'em away. And so with those parts, a lot of people aren't really consciously aware of them until these protector parts give space and open the door to the exiles.

  3. 7:23 – 9:44

    Sponsors: BetterHelp & David Protein

    1. RS

    2. AH

      I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, BetterHelp. BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online. Now, I personally have been doing therapy weekly for well over 30 years. In fact, I consider doing regular therapy just as important as getting regular exercise, which, of course, I also do every week. There are essentially three things that great therapy provides. First of all, it provides a good rapport with somebody that you can trust and talk to about pretty much any issue with. Second of all, it can provide support in the form of emotional support and directed guidance. And third, expert therapy can provide useful insights, insights that allow you to better not just your emotional life and your relationship life, but, of course, also the relationship to yourself and your professional life, and to all sorts of goals. BetterHelp makes it very easy to find an expert therapist with whom you resonate with and that can provide you those three benefits that come from effective therapy. Also, because BetterHelp allows for therapy to be done entirely online, it's super time-efficient and easy to fit into a busy schedule. If you'd like to try BetterHelp, you can go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month. Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by David. David makes a protein bar unlike any other. It has 28 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar. That's right, 28 grams of protein, and 75% of its calories come from protein. This is 50% higher than the next-closest protein bar. David protein bars also taste amazing. Even the texture is amazing. My favorite bar is the chocolate chip cookie dough, but then again, I also like the new chocolate peanut butter flavor and the chocolate brownie flavor. Basically, I like all the flavors a lot. They're all incredibly delicious. In fact, the toughest challenge is knowing which ones to eat on which days and how many times per day. I limit myself to two per day, but I absolutely love them. With David, I'm able to get 28 grams of protein in the calories of a snack, which makes it easy to hit my protein goals of one gram of protein per pound of body weight per day, and it allows me to do so without ingesting too many calories. I'll eat a David protein bar most afternoons as a snack, and I always keep one with me when I'm out of the house or traveling. They're incredibly delicious, and given that they have 28 grams of protein, they're really satisfying for having just 150 calories. If you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman. Again, that's davidprotein.com/huberman.

  4. 9:44 – 15:32

    Trauma & Parts: Exiles, Roles, Critic, Managers, Firefighters

    1. AH

      I definitely want to go into what the various protector roles or titles are, labels, excuse me, and the exiles. Before we do that, uh, since you brought up the topic of trauma, this is a topic that I think many, many people are interested in. Um, just curious, you know, how do you define a trauma, um, and why do you think it is that traumas tend to lock us into, uh, a state that was representative of an earlier time?

    2. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AH

      Wh- why is it that it's so linked to this thing of time perception?

    4. RS

      Yeah. The, the why question I can't totally answer, but definitely is. And for me, traumas aren't necessarily traumatizing. So something bad happens to you, and if you can access what you and Martha Beck were calling the S- the Self, with a capital S, and you go to the part of you that got hurt by what happened, instead of pushing it away and locking it up, and you embrace it, and you bring it closer to you, which means going to your suffering, which is counter to what most of us try to do. But if you were to do that, and you could help it unload the feelings it got from the trauma, then you're not traumatized. What's traumatizing is something bad happens, these more vulnerable parts of us, the most sensitive parts of us get hurt or feel worthless because of what happened, or get terrified, and then we lock 'em away because we don't want to feel that feeling anymore, and everybody around us tells us to just let it go, just move on, don't look back. And so we wind up exiling our most sensitive parts simply because they got hurt. And then, when you have a lot of exiles, you feel more delicate. The world seems more dangerous 'cause anything could trigger that. And when they get triggered, they'll, they'll blow up. They'll take over. So it's like these flames of raw emotion come popping out. So other parts have t- are forced into these manager roles or, or these protective roles, and some of them are trying to manage your life so that you don't get triggered anymore, so that, for example, nobody gets close enough to you to trigger any of that, or so you-... you look really s- good, so you don't get rejected, or perform at a really high level to counter the worthlessness. Many of those become The Criticss, because in their effort to try to get you to look good, they're yelling at you try and behave and, and do what they want, so you look better. Uh, and, and then there are other what we call Manager/Protectors that are, I mean, for some people, particularly women, um, these massive caretaking parts that don't let them take care of themselves and take care of everybody else, and so I could go on and on. There's a lot of common Manager roles, and I wanna make clear as I'm talking about this that these are not the essence of the parts, and that's a big mistake that most of the field has made, is to assume The Critic is just a internalized critical parent voice instead of listening to it and hearing that it's desperately trying to protect you. So, none of these are what they seem. That's the role they've been forced into. And the analogy, again, is to a external family. Like, kids in, in dysfunctional families are forced into these extreme roles that aren't who they are. It's the role they got forced into by the dynamics of the family. So, the same is true with this internal family. So, most of us have a lot of what we call Managers. They got us here. They, they help us in our careers and they... Other systems would call them the Defenses or the Ego. Uh, and, and you know, in spirituality, they get vilified too. But their whole MO is keep everything under control, please everybody, and you'll survive. The world has a way of breaking through those defenses, triggering an Exile. When that happens, it's a big emergency, 'cause again, these flames of raw emotion are, are gonna overwhelm you and make you s- have trouble functioning, or even getting out of bed. So, there are other parts that immediately go into action to deal with that emergency, and in contrast to these Managers, they're impulsive, reactive, damn the torpedoes, I don't care about the collateral damage to your body, to your relationships. I just got to get you higher than those flames or douse them with some substance or distract you till they burn themselves out. So, we call those Firefighters. And again, these are just the roles. When released from these roles, they'll transform into being something very valuable.

    5. AH

      So, the Firefighter, the inner Firefighter role is one of the Exiles that surfaces-

    6. RS

      Sometimes.

    7. AH

      ... under conditions of, of a lot of emotion? Maybe we could, um... This is a beautiful description, and I'm completely on board this idea that we have multiple aspects of self or selves inside. Jung said that too, I think, right?

    8. RS

      Yeah.

    9. AH

      Like, you know, um, so it's a-

    10. RS

      Jung had all this a long time ago.

    11. AH

      Yeah, and I, uh, what I, what I like about this Protectors/Managers versus, again, not versus because they're combative, but as a distinct category, the Exiles, is, um, just feels very true to me, um, and I like the, the directness of the language. So, maybe we could just,

  5. 15:32 – 19:35

    Frustration & Anger, Surrender & Perspective

    1. AH

      um, like, m- create a mental grid for people.

    2. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AH

      Like if, let's say I came to you as a patient-

    4. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. AH

      ... and I said, "Listen, I, you know, I'm..." I'll just be dire- I'll be honest. Why not? We're, we're-

    6. RS

      Let's do it.

    7. AH

      Let's do it.

    8. RS

      Let's do it. (laughs)

    9. AH

      All right. Y- Secretly, I brought you here to get therapy.

    10. RS

      (laughs)

    11. AH

      No. No, um, but okay. So I'm somebody who, uh, for a very long time has been able to organize his life. Um, I tend to have s- smooth interactions with my coworkers, great friendships. Um, I now have a very good relationship with my immediate family, r- very good, in fact. I'm still working on a few things with a few people, but I'm living in a mode of, uh, great, uh, joy and appreciation these days. However, um, I'm j- I'm not gonna give the details of this for sake of privacy, but, um, you know, the other day I was in a discussion with a family member, and, uh, they had a grievance with me that I felt we had already addressed, and it, um, and it became a very high friction conversation very quickly to the point where we tabled as an idea that maybe we just take some, like, serious space.

    12. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. AH

      Like, um, which was not reflective of how deeply I love this person or they love me.

    14. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    15. AH

      It was just a feeling of both of us just being in this, like, high-tension place, like, "Ugh." And, um, uh, fortunately, the conversation ended well with a path forward that involved more contact, not less-

    16. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    17. AH

      ... that I, that both of us feel really good about.

    18. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    19. AH

      But in that moment where I'm feeling overwhelmed-

    20. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    21. AH

      ... and they're feeling overwhelmed-

    22. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    23. AH

      ... what's going on there? We're both adults.

    24. RS

      So, overwhelmed with anger at each other, or-

    25. AH

      Frustration.

    26. RS

      Frustration, yeah. So-

    27. AH

      Frustration, like that, um, previous conversations, I, I felt I hadn't, um... I was saying things, uh, they were saying things, but I feel like there was so much underlying tension-

    28. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    29. AH

      ... based on a history of poor communication, nested on top of a, of a, of the, kind of an intensity of emotion that we both tend to carry.

    30. RS

      Mm-hmm.

  6. 19:35 – 29:35

    Feelings, Curiosity & Self-Exploration, Protecting Other Parts

    1. AH

      sure.

    2. RS

      Okay. Should we start with the frustrated, angry part?

    3. AH

      Sure.

    4. RS

      All right. You ready?

    5. AH

      I, I believe so, yeah.

    6. RS

      Okay. (laughs)

    7. AH

      (laughs)

    8. RS

      So remember that, uh, feeling.

    9. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    10. RS

      And then focus on it and find it in your body, around your body.

    11. AH

      Okay.

    12. RS

      Where do you find it?

    13. AH

      It's between the middle of my midsection and up to like right behind my forehead. Like, there's pressure.

    14. RS

      That's great.

    15. AH

      In both places.

    16. RS

      It's great you have such clarity about it. So as you focus there, how do you feel toward this part of you?

    17. AH

      Oh, no, this... It's very unpleasant.

    18. RS

      So you don't like it?

    19. AH

      No, I don't like it.

    20. RS

      Yeah, which makes sense 'cause it does, you know, sometimes escalate things with your friend, and, uh, doesn't leave you feeling good. So I understand why you don't like it. But we're gonna ask the parts that don't like it to give us the space to just get curious about it and see if that's possible.

    21. AH

      Okay. Um, okay.

    22. RS

      So how do you feel toward it now?

    23. AH

      I feel a little bit of relaxation in the, in the, the head part of it.

    24. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    25. AH

      Um, yeah, it's, it's f- it's funny how when you asked me to localize it, it's so clear. It's like this thing inside me. It's like this, about the size of like a teddy bear that's just like, "Aw," but it's not a fr- it's not a good thing. It's like pushed up there. But then when you said to get curious about it, um, feels like it kind of drops down a little bit and kinda-

    26. RS

      That's great.

    27. AH

      ... kinda moves in a lit- maybe softens a little bit.

    28. RS

      So you do feel curious toward it?

    29. AH

      Yeah.

    30. RS

      All right. So go ahead and ask it what it wants you to know about itself.

  7. 29:35 – 40:04

    Exploration of Inner Frustration, Judgement, Firefighters, Protectors

    1. AH

    2. RS

      But what I'm hearing, what the, what we heard from this part, it's afraid if it doesn't do this, i- uh, a part that judges the other, probably in a, you know, not-so-nice way-

    3. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    4. RS

      ... would be released.

    5. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    6. RS

      Does that sound right?

    7. AH

      Yeah.

    8. RS

      So, there is that part in there. It's just that you've been able to kind of exile it.

    9. AH

      Yes. Yeah.

    10. RS

      Okay.

    11. AH

      Yeah. I'm comfortable with the idea that you take the appropriate amount of distance, could be zero or it could be near infinite, but that I should take the appropriate amount of distance from things and people so that I can be in the most loving stance-

    12. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. AH

      ... toward them-

    14. RS

      Yeah.

    15. AH

      ... or that.

    16. RS

      Yeah.

    17. AH

      I'm not trying to sound technical here with all the parallel constructions, but I've thought this through a lot. Like, there's some people that I, um...... that there's no limit to the extent to which I, I wanna interact with them. You know?

    18. RS

      Yeah.

    19. AH

      We, we have other things to do, we're not gonna spend all our time together. And then there are other people that I love them, but I, I know that I have to keep a certain amount of distance in order to continue to love them. This is the same thing.

    20. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    21. AH

      So in that moment, it's almost like, but I, it's coming up without my conscious thing. It's not like saying, "Listen, that's the kind of person I can, you know, talk to, like, once, once a month or something." And I'll just add, you know, in professional settings, not now, but in the distant past when I was in a very hierarchical structure of, uh, I'm still in academia, I still teach, but not, um, running research anymore, um, formally. You know, like I had a couple, um, senior colleagues that I really loved and respected, but that they, um, they would say or do things that I thought were frankly unethical-

    22. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    23. AH

      ... to other people. And to me, that, I felt them as kind of abrasive.

    24. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    25. AH

      So I might, like the physical manifestation of this is I would make it a point to, like, walk past their office door quickly so that they didn't say, "Hey," 'cause I don't wanna interact.

    26. RS

      Right.

    27. AH

      But I n- I don't, I'm not familiar with cutting people out of my life.

    28. RS

      Right.

    29. AH

      I'm just not familiar with doing that. I don't b- I, I sort of don't believe in it as a value.

    30. RS

      Let's pause for a second.

  8. 40:04 – 46:41

    Titanium Teddy Bear, The Self & Curiosity, Tool: The 8 C’s & Self

    1. AH

    2. RS

      So let me check in and just see how this has been to discuss and, and focus and so on.

    3. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    4. RS

      What's it been like to do this process?

    5. AH

      Hmm. Um, it's a lot in the sense that, um, I don't like feeling that titanium thing.

    6. RS

      Teddy bear?

    7. AH

      Teddy bear. (laughs) Um, uh, it's very, it's been very informative, so it's balanced by that. Um, and maybe that's why I, I went into a little riff about the pleasant relationships-

    8. RS

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    9. AH

      ... and how, um-

    10. RS

      How he feels.

    11. AH

      ... how outsized positive they are for me. They're, they're like a, they're like a salve and an elixir for me-

    12. RS

      Yeah.

    13. AH

      ... um, that, uh... So maybe I give myself a little, like, washover with that 'cause it, it's pretty uncomfortable.

    14. RS

      Yeah.

    15. AH

      Um, but it's been, it's really informative. Um, and it also tells me that the internal family systems work that I did with someone else was, uh, an attempt at this, but so very different, which makes sense-

    16. RS

      Yeah.

    17. AH

      ... because this is, uh, your art and science, uh...

    18. RS

      Yeah.

    19. AH

      So, so I'm grateful.

    20. RS

      Yeah. So-

    21. AH

      Yeah. Yeah, it feels good.

    22. RS

      What I was saying earlier is, if we were to pursue it, we could get to the point where the t- teddy bear guy could unload the feelings he carries that makes it so uncomfortable, and he would transform.

    23. AH

      How would I, how would, uh, we go about doing that just so-

    24. RS

      So you, you would focus on him again.

    25. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    26. RS

      You would explore more of what he's protecting.

    27. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    28. RS

      Either we would go to the guy he's trying to keep at bay that would ruin a relationship, or often these parts are protecting something much vul- vulnerable from your past.

    29. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    30. RS

      Some young part that's stuck somewhere in the past that has a big issue about being misunderstood in terms of motives or something.

  9. 46:41 – 49:24

    Sponsors: AG1 & Wealthfront

    1. RS

    2. AH

      I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is an all-in-one vitamin mineral probiotic drink with adaptogens. I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring this podcast. The reason I started taking AG1 and the reason I still take AG1 is because it is the highest quality and most complete foundational nutritional supplement. What that means is that AG1 ensures that you're getting all the necessary vitamins, minerals, and other micronutrients to form a strong foundation for your daily health. AG1 also has probiotics and prebiotics that support a healthy gut microbiome. Your gut microbiome consists of trillions of microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune system status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more. So, I've consistently found that when I take AG1 daily, my digestion is improved, my immune system is more robust, and my mood and mental focus are at their best. In fact, if I could take just one supplement, that supplement would be AG1. If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer. They'll give you five free travel packs plus a year supply of vitamin D3K2 with your order of AG1. Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim this special offer.Today's episode is also brought to us by Wealthfront. I've been using Wealthfront for my savings and my investing for nearly a decade, and I absolutely love it. At the start of every year, I set new goals, and one of my goals for 2025 is to focus on saving money. Since I have Wealthfront, I'll keep that savings in my Wealthfront Cash Account, where I'm able to earn 4% annual percentage yield on my deposits, and you can as well. With Wealthfront, you can earn 4% APY on your cash from partner banks until you're ready to either spend that money or invest it. With Wealthfront, you also get free instant withdrawals to eligible accounts every day, even on weekends and holidays. The 4% APY is not a promotional rate, and there's no limit to what you can deposit and earn. And you can even get protection for up to $8 million through FDIC insurance provided through Wealthfront's partner banks. Wealthfront gives you free instant withdrawals, where it takes just minutes to transfer your money to eligible external accounts. It also takes just minutes to transfer your cash from the Cash Account to any of Wealthfront's automated investment accounts when you're ready to invest. There are already a million people using Wealthfront to save more, earn more, and build long-term wealth. Earn 4% APY on your cash today. If you'd like to try Wealthfront, go to wealthfront.com/huberman to receive a free $50 bonus with a $500 deposit into your first Cash Account. That's wealthfront.com/huberman to get started now. This has been a paid testimonial of Wealthfront. Wealthfront Brokerage isn't a bank. The APY is subject to change. For more information, see the episode

  10. 49:24 – 53:47

    IFS Therapy, Self-Exploration

    1. AH

      description. I'm struck by a couple of things that I think people will be, um, if I may, wise to think about. Uh, one is, yeah, in the classic psychodynamic or CBT model of therapy, right, the, it's clear that the, the client or patient sometimes it's called, right?

    2. RS

      Patient, sure.

    3. AH

      Uh, pa- patient, um, therapist relationship is one where it, it takes on certain, um, components that exist in the outside world with other people, and it's always, um, slightly bothered me, um, slash concerned me that that's the structure.

    4. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. AH

      And as you said, in, uh, IFS, internal family systems, you become your own-

    6. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    7. AH

      ... kind of therapist, if-

    8. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. AH

      ... if you will.

    10. RS

      Totally.

    11. AH

      Uh, for lack of a better way to put it. I like that because, um, uh, there's so much discussion nowadays about, you know, parenting yourself and-

    12. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. AH

      ... this kind of thing, and, um, learning to mother yourself and father yourself, and I actually think there's great value in that.

    14. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    15. AH

      I mean, I learned by living alone, you know, how to cook for myself and clean for myself.

    16. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    17. AH

      These are, I'm mapping to stereotypes here, but, um, but also to protect myself and to-

    18. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    19. AH

      ... you know, organize myself and be very, very disciplined.

    20. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    21. AH

      And, um, actually running a laboratory was a great, um, teaching there, because you're basically a single academic parent to, to all these, these people.

    22. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    23. AH

      So you have to, you, you quickly realize where you lack maternal instincts and where-

    24. RS

      Yeah.

    25. AH

      ... you may lack or over, uh, uh, overemphasize, or have hypertrophied paternal instincts. It used-

    26. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    27. AH

      You, so that was a good forum to, to see my weaknesses.

    28. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    29. AH

      Um, and hopefully some strengths too. So I like this idea that, that one can play those roles for oneself. Um, how is IFS typically done if somebody doesn't have access to a therapist who's expert in it?

    30. RS

      Mm-hmm.

  11. 53:47 – 1:00:26

    Role Confusion, Conflict, Self & Clarity; Legacy Burdens

    1. RS

    2. AH

      I do, I do. I, in fact, I, something pops to mind, maybe I could just ask you about it. I, um, my mind's right on what you're saying, but, you know, something occurred to me as you said it.... which is, uh, if I were to, for instance, really feel the feeling of, like, "Hey, that's really screwed up," or, like, "That's not..." Like, actually feel the disappointment or judgment-

    3. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    4. AH

      ... that this (laughs) titanium teddy bear is trying to protect against. Um, I realize it leads to a lot of role confusion-

    5. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    6. AH

      ... and identity confusion.

    7. RS

      That's right.

    8. AH

      And I'll just be very blunt. Uh, this is probably not the best thing to do on a podcast, but I'm gonna do it anyway, which is, you know, th- this is how I feel about modern politics.

    9. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    10. AH

      I see things on the left-

    11. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    12. AH

      ... that make sense to me-

    13. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    14. AH

      ... and things that are, to me, just absolutely ludicrous, inappropriate, and-

    15. RS

      Me too. Yeah.

    16. AH

      ... offensive, and, like, just badly wrong.

    17. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    18. AH

      I see things on the right that make a ton of sense to me, and also things that are inappropriate, offensive, and wrong.

    19. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    20. AH

      And as a consequence, I'm trying to see the best... The, the goodness in both sides-

    21. RS

      Right.

    22. AH

      ... and just kind of create this kind of, uh, Swiss cheese model of, of the world.

    23. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    24. AH

      I'm talking about politics 'cause it's just simpler to do, and I... People at least know the groups we're talking about. And, but then it, it leaves me in a place of no affiliation-

    25. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    26. AH

      ... and I'm then between one of two stances, one of just kind of standing there being like, "Yeah, well, there's no real position in the middle that is an official position in the middle." But it also makes me just want to put up the middle finger to both-

    27. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    28. AH

      ... and say, "I'm a double hater." But of course, I'm an adult and a citizen who cares about people in the country. And so-

    29. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    30. AH

      ... I feel like, to be an adult, I can't opt out. But there's... Like, I feel unaffiliated.

  12. 1:00:26 – 1:04:11

    Cognitive vs Somatic Feelings; Tools: Localize Body Feeling, Curiosity

    1. AH

      Do you think that people who have the reflex or the ability to, um, kind of somaticize a bit, like I obviously, I, I don't think of myself as somebody who's, like, psychosomatic, I don't have stomachaches and headaches and stuff unless I've caught a virus, (laughs) you know? But, but I can feel where certain things are in my body-

    2. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AH

      ... uh, pretty quickly-

    4. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. AH

      ... and always have. Um, do you think that IFS lends itself better to people who, you know, feel things somatically versus people that are, like, really cognitive and in their head? 'Cause I have that component too, I can actually feel the switch.

    6. RS

      Yeah.

    7. AH

      Like, I do it through, I'll go into, like, a narrative, and then-

    8. RS

      Yeah.

    9. AH

      ... I start to see the structure, like, up here.

    10. RS

      Yeah.

    11. AH

      And, um-

    12. RS

      Yeah, that happened-

    13. AH

      ... and it, yeah.

    14. RS

      ... several times when we were, we were working together.

    15. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    16. RS

      Like, I would have you stay with something, and then the narrator part would kick in.

    17. AH

      Yeah.

    18. RS

      And, and then I would try to refocus you.

    19. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    20. RS

      But, you know, I've lived in Boston for 10 years, so (laughs) I worked with lots of cognitive people who didn't know their bodies, who had, you know, just were in that rat race to try and get tenure and so on.

    21. AH

      Been there.

    22. RS

      Yes, me too. (laughs)

    23. AH

      Yeah.

    24. RS

      And-

    25. AH

      Yeah, tenure's nice, but, um, one should tend to their emotional selves-

    26. RS

      Exactly.

    27. AH

      ... while they're, while they're (laughs) , while they're pursuing it.

    28. RS

      But just to answer your question, they can do it, but we first have to start with that thinking part, and get it on board, and get it to step out, and to s- to stay out long enough that they can feel their bodies. So yeah, you know, it, it lends itself to anybody, but with people like that, it takes awhile for that thinking part to trust that it's safe to let them in their, into their bodies.

    29. AH

      So if we were to just step back for a moment and, um, do sort of a top contour summary of the process, um, w- someone brings forward a, uh, a memory, a, a recent or distant memory of something that made them feel not good. And you try and localize some sensation in the body-

    30. RS

      Yeah.

  13. 1:04:11 – 1:11:18

    IFS & Psychedelics, Ketamine, Big Self, Journal Retractions

    1. AH

      ... Has internal family systems been combined with some of the therapies that are now getting tested, um, still in clinical trial stage, uh, around, um, psychedelics?

    2. RS

      Yeah. In fact, two days ago, we just completed a, uh, IFS and ketamine retreat.

    3. AH

      Oh, wow.

    4. RS

      So we had, and, and we're doing it more and more. Like I said, I'm trying to bring this more out of the psychotherapy world. So, we invited 32 leaders to come of various kinds, and had, uh, three days where they would do ketamine and then do IFS. The nice thing about psychedelics is it puts those manager parts to sleep somehow a lot of the time.

    5. AH

      Yeah. I've, I've been open about the fact, and I always have to provide the disclaimer? I am, I, I don't just say this for, to protect me, I say this to protect listeners, that I do think, um, young people should avoid psychedelics. The brain is-

    6. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    7. AH

      ... already in a psychedelic state. (laughs)

    8. RS

      I do too, yeah.

    9. AH

      Uh, it's, it's, the pl- the, the amount of plasticity ... And this is, is really tremendous, and this is coming from somebody who regrets it, but I did psychedelics recreationally as a kid.

    10. RS

      Me too.

    11. AH

      Um, and I regret it. I returned to them later in a clinical setting, um, and, and derived, uh, a lot of benefit, I think, from them. Uh, namely high-dose psilocybin and MDMA, but both of those are still very much illegal, uh, you can get into a lot of trouble-

    12. RS

      Yeah.

    13. AH

      ... for taking them and/or certainly for selling them. So, um, that's the cautionary note there. And the clinical trials are really impressive, in my opinion.

    14. RS

      Impressive, yeah.

    15. AH

      Spectacularly impressive, especially for MDMA and for the treatment of PTSD. But the FDA, this, uh, last year, um, did not approve MDMA, uh, as a treatment for PTSD.

    16. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    17. AH

      I think going forward in the new administration, it's likely that it will get approved-

    18. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    19. AH

      ... but-... who knows? There's-

    20. RS

      Yeah.

    21. AH

      ... uh, who knows? So, anyway, that's a bunch of, um, pseudo-legalese jargon, but it, but it, it's, it's sincere. If I were an 18 or 19-year-old person, or 30-year-old person listening to a conversation about psychedelics and how they can be helpful, I would wanna also know that there are instances where people take them and they don't have the appropriate guidance in and through it-

    22. RS

      Totally.

    23. AH

      ... and out of it, and it leads to serious problems.

    24. RS

      And that's-

    25. AH

      So that is, this is a real, real thing that we're talking about.

    26. RS

      That's why these ketamine clinics where they just hand them the drugs and-

    27. AH

      Yeah. It's terrible.

    28. RS

      ... the medicine, and just leave them on their own are scary to me. Um, I'm proud to say that IFS has been adopted as one of the primary models for psychedelics now-

    29. AH

      Great.

    30. RS

      ... 'cause it's a really nice fit.

  14. 1:11:18 – 1:13:53

    Early Morning, Breathwork, Exiles & Healing

    1. AH

      in any case, I do believe there are other routes to, um, calming down the forebrain-

    2. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AH

      ... uh, in the context of doing this kind of work that-

    4. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. AH

      ... I'd just like your thoughts on.

    6. RS

      Sure.

    7. AH

      Uh, when I first wake up in the morning-

    8. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. AH

      ... I'm in kind of a liminal state.

    10. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    11. AH

      But, the thing that I don't want to think about comes to my brain. I can't avoid it.

    12. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. AH

      It's like, uh, the, the, uh, protectors are, are not available.

    14. RS

      Exactly.

    15. AH

      They're still asleep.

    16. RS

      That's right.

    17. AH

      So that seems valuable.

    18. RS

      Yeah.

    19. AH

      I've tried recently to keep my eyes closed. Sometimes I'll get up and use the bathroom, but keep my eyes closed, stay in that still state, and e- explore the contours of that thing.

    20. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    21. AH

      Um, uh, provided it's done safely and not anywhere near water, um, cyclic hyperventilation breath work-

    22. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    23. AH

      ... done for a few minutes or cycles, you know?

    24. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    25. AH

      You know? (inhales) ... we think can change the brain activity so the forebrain kinda comes off-

    26. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    27. AH

      ... line a bit, so to speak.

    28. RS

      All these things just-

    29. AH

      D- do those-

    30. RS

      Put- put managers to sleep.

  15. 1:13:53 – 1:15:41

    Sponsor: Function

    1. AH

      I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function. Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health. This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more. They've also recently added tests for toxins such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFASs or forever chemicals. Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas. For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood. Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification. And I should say by taking a second Function test, that approach worked. Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important. There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test. The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated. In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost. It is very affordable. As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman. Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.

  16. 1:15:41 – 1:21:29

    Shame, Racism, Protectors & Carrying Burden, Compassion

    1. AH

      What is so striking to me is that, you know, a- and Martha taught me this practice of, you know, when we think about the things that, um, create shame for ourselves, if we're able to go up and really look at those and-

    2. RS

      Yeah.

    3. AH

      ... own them not from the perspective of, "I'm proud of them," but own them as in us and not of us.

    4. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. AH

      And not of us, you know? Um, uh, that it's incredibly freeing.

    6. RS

      Yeah.

    7. AH

      And indeed it is so freeing, right?

    8. RS

      Yeah.

    9. AH

      It's like the, if this, if there were, like, a secret to life, like (laughs) , uh, it would at least include that.

    10. RS

      Yeah.

    11. AH

      Um, because-

    12. RS

      Let me rip off, rip off of that-

    13. AH

      Yeah, please. Yeah.

    14. RS

      ... for a second 'cause just as an example, like I do, uh, I've done workshops where I have people work with their racism. You're speaking of something very shameful. And a lot of people say, "I don't, I'm not a racist. I don't have any racism." But if I really convince them to look inside and check, they'll find there's a little part in there that does spout racist things when they meet somebody of a different c- skin color, or has these white supremacy beliefs, and they're, they're really ashamed of it. So if I were to have you focus on that racist voice in there, we would have to get a lot of the parts that are ashamed of it to step out, and then I would (clears throat) have you get curious about it rather than ashamed of it, and ask it about where it picked up this, these beliefs, and it could tell you. And then I would ask, "Do you like having to carry this racist stuff?" Usually it'll say no. If it's ready to unload it, we can just unload it. So one of the key things to know is these parts are not the burdens they carry. They're all good. The little guy who's got the racist rant is a part that got stuck with his beliefs. But when he releases those beliefs, he transforms into being a good... And the mistake our culture makes, the mistake that, that, uh, most psychotherapies make is to assume that he is that racist rant and to try to exile him, but it's a different way of understanding even very seemingly evil people, that they're dominated by these protectors and they're so afraid of their exiles.... and they relate inside in the same way they relate outside. So, if they hate parts of themselves, they'll hate people who resemble those parts of them. They'll try to dominate those people. Do you follow what I'm saying?

    15. AH

      Yeah, and I'd like to really go into this a bit, because we hear all the time that when we're upset about something, it's something in ourselves that we're really upset about.

    16. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    17. AH

      Um...

    18. RS

      And for me, that isn't always true, but that's sometimes true.

    19. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    20. RS

      Yeah.

    21. AH

      So, if I'm upset about the intolerance of, um, good ideas from people in opposite groups-

    22. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    23. AH

      ... o- of each other's good ideas, um, this logic would say that I'm really just disapproving of that aspect of myself that is, like, black and white judgmental.

    24. RS

      Which we already established.

    25. AH

      (laughs) Got me.

    26. RS

      (laughs)

    27. AH

      Then again, you're the therapist, so. Um, right. So, is this always true?

    28. RS

      Not always.

    29. AH

      Okay.

    30. RS

      But a lot of the time. So, if you can come to have compassion for that judgmental part of you and-

  17. 1:21:29 – 1:27:06

    Unhealthy Romantic Relationships, Child-Parent Relationship

    1. RS

    2. AH

      Th- this idea of, uh... I- I'm definitely following that, that we will sometimes create in others, um, you know, what we, uh, fear, because it allows us to engage in this unhealthy dynamic.

    3. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    4. AH

      It seem, it seems so counterintuitive, right?

    5. RS

      Right.

    6. AH

      Uh, maybe we take a kind of classic set of examples that I think are pretty common. Um, a person who's codependent with somebody who's a substance abuse addict.

    7. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    8. AH

      Um, or somebody who's very timid and always wants to pacify-

    9. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    10. AH

      ... and somebody who's very dominant.

    11. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    12. AH

      When I zoom out from the second case, it actually (laughs) kind of makes me chuckle how c- how crazy tha- that is. Because if you think about it, a person who is, uh, very dominant, uh, doesn't need somebody very timid in order to feel dominant, right? They c- they could probably, uh, feel whatever power it is they need to feel with somebody who is less timid and-

    13. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    14. AH

      ... maybe the relationship would be healthier. But that's not how people tend to, um, other-select.

    15. RS

      Hook up, yeah.

    16. AH

      It's kind of interesting, like-

    17. RS

      Right.

    18. AH

      So, it raises a- a- perhaps a bigger question. Why do people select people that are fundamentally, um, bad for them?

    19. RS

      Okay. So, (laughs) I did a book called You're The One You've Been Waiting For, and in it, I talked about this wh- whole issue. And so, for a lot of people, you get hurt by your parent, and there are parts that want to protect you from your parent, but there are other parts who are desperate, who took on the worthlessness from being rejected by your parent and are desperate for redemption. Do you follow this?

    20. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    21. RS

      And so, uh, as you leave and you're looking for a partner, that part from a subconscious place can influence your decision to find somebody who resembles that parent in their effort to be redeemed again.

    22. AH

      Yeah. Is this anything like the, uh, sort of repetition compulsion-

    23. RS

      Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

    24. AH

      ... uh-huh, that we, that we tend to repeat a, a pattern over and over again as an attempt to resolve-

    25. RS

      Yeah.

    26. AH

      ... not just a manifestation of, like, dysfunction?

    27. RS

      That's a version of what I'm talking about.

    28. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    29. RS

      And so, you find somebody who does resemble that person, that parent, and unfortunately, they do resemble that parent. (laughs)

    30. AH

      Mm-hmm.

  18. 1:27:06 – 1:31:08

    Therapist, Self-Exploration, Protectors & Introduction to Self

    1. AH

      it seemed as if maybe 20, 30 years ago because these ideas weren't, um, discussed really.

    2. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AH

      Uh, so, so many fewer people were in any kind of analysis or, or personal exploration work.

Episode duration: 2:13:08

Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript

Transcript of episode KuuoLT-fq4s

Get more out of YouTube videos.

High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.

Add to Chrome