How to Achieve Inner Peace & Healing | Dr. Richard Schwartz

Andrew Huberman 0:00 (instrumental music) Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Richard Schwartz. Dr. Richard Schwartz is the founder of Internal Family Systems Therapy, which is a unique form of therapy that's less centered on your relationship to other people, but instead focuses mainly on identifying the parts of yourself and your personality that tend to emerge in different situations and that tend to create anxiety, resent, or depression. Another key feature of Internal Family Systems Therapy is that it's not just focused on fixing challenges within us, it also teaches you how to grow your confidence, openness, and compassion. Now, today's episode is different than any other episode of the podcast that we've done before, and that's for two reasons. First, Dr. Schwartz takes me through a brief session of IFS therapy so you can see exactly what it looks like in practice, and then he takes you, the listener, through it as well. So as you'll soon observe and experience, Internal Family Systems Therapy allows you to work through challenging sticking points, basically the parts or feelings within you that you don't like to have, and then it shows you how to convert those feelings into more functional aspects of yourself. So as you'll soon see, Internal Family Systems Therapy is both super interesting and it's an incredibly empowering practice. It's also a form of therapy that's now been studied and for which there's a lot of peer-reviewed science to support its efficacy. By the end of today's episode, Dr. Dick Schwartz will have shown you that a lot of the negative reactions that we tend to have with different people and things tend to originate from a few basic patterns that, once we understand, we can really transmute into more positive responses. It's a really interesting practice. It's one that you can apply today during the episode and that you can return to in order to apply going forward in your life. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Richard Schwartz.

Andrew Huberman 2:12 Dr. Dick Schwartz, welcome.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 2:14 Thank you, Andrew. It's, it's, uh, delightful to be with you.

Andrew Huberman 2:17 Yeah. I've, uh, heard so much about you and your work and Internal Family Systems models. Um, I've had the opportunity to do a little bit of that work.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 2:27 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 2:28 Uh, to be honest, I don't know whether or not the person I did that work with, um, was formally trained in it.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 2:33 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 2:33 So, I'd like to start off by just asking you, what is Internal Family Systems, and what are the different components?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 2:41 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 2:42 And as we do that, I'm sure people are going to be thinking about these various components for their own life and the people in their lives.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 2:49 Great.

Andrew Huberman 2:49 So, yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 2:50 Well, originally, I developed it as a form of psychotherapy, which is probably the way it's used most now, but it's also become a kind of life practice and a, just a, um, paradigm for understanding the human mind and, uh, it's an alternative to the culture's paradigm. So, that's, um, saying a lot, uh, and it's been quite a journey.

Andrew Huberman 3:17 I know of Freudian psychoanalysis. I know of, you know, any number of different branches of psychology that have a clinical slant to them.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 3:25 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 3:25 There's cognitive behavioral therapy.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 3:27 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 3:27 What are, what are the core components of Internal Family Systems?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 3:31 Yeah. So, one basic assumption is that the mind isn't unitary, that actually it's, uh, we're all multiple personalities, not in the diagnostic sense.

Andrew Huberman 3:42 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 3:43 But we all have these what I call parts, other systems call subpersonalities, ego states, things like that, uh, and that it's the natural state of the mind to be that way, that we're born with them because they're all very valuable and, uh, have qualities and resources to help us survive and, and thrive. But trauma and what's called attachment injuries and the slings and arrows we suffer force these little naturally valuable parts into roles that can be destructive. Often, they don't like it all, but because they're frozen often in time, in the, during the trauma, and they live as if it's still happening, they're in these protective roles that, uh, can be quite extreme and interfere in your life. And, uh, yeah, so I just stumbled onto the phenomena 40, now I think it's 41 years ago.

Andrew Huberman 4:48 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 4:49 And it's been, you know, amazing ride.

Andrew Huberman 4:52 So, at the time, were you already practicing as a clinical psychologist?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 4:56 Actually, I have a PhD in Marital and Family Therapy. So I was part of the movement in family therapy away from inter-psychic work. Uh, there was a polarization, and we thought we could reorganize families and heal all these symptoms just by doing that. We didn't have to muck around in the inner world. And I went to prove that, and this was about 1983, by getting a group of bulimic kids together and their families and tried to reorganize the families just the way the book said to and failed. They, the, the kids didn't realize they'd been cured, and they kept binging and purging. So out of frustration, I began asking, "Why?" And they started talking this language of parts. And they would say some version of, "When something happens ba- bad happens in my life, it triggers this critic who's calling me all kinds of names inside, and that goes right to the heart of a part that feels empty and alone and worthless. And that's so distressing to feel that the binge part comes in and takes me out, takes me away from all that pain. But the critic comes in and attacks me for the binge."... and then the criticism goes right to the heart of that, that worthless part. So to me, as a family therapist, this sounded like what I'd been studying in external families, these circular sequences of interaction, and so I just got curious and just started to explore.

Andrew Huberman 6:26 Are these different parts that exist within each and all of us, are they represented by a clear and distinct voice from the other, or do people typically experience them as just the self, like my inner critic? Uh, um, you'll give us the other names and titles. Um, or is this happening typically below people's conscious awareness?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 6:49 S- some of both. So most people are aware they're a critic, and, uh, but other, other times you're not aware of these parts we call exiles that you've locked away because you didn't want to feel their feelings. They're stuck in these bad trauma scenes, and to survive in your life, you had to push 'em away. And so with those parts, a lot of people aren't really consciously aware of them until these protector parts give space and open the door to the exiles.

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Andrew Huberman 9:45 I definitely want to go into what the various protector roles or titles are, labels, excuse me, and the exiles. Before we do that, uh, since you brought up the topic of trauma, this is a topic that I think many, many people are interested in. Um, just curious, you know, how do you define a trauma, um, and why do you think it is that traumas tend to lock us into, uh, a state that was representative of an earlier time?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 10:16 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 10:16 Wh- why is it that it's so linked to this thing of time perception?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 10:20 Yeah. The, the why question I can't totally answer, but definitely is. And for me, traumas aren't necessarily traumatizing. So something bad happens to you, and if you can access what you and Martha Beck were calling the S- the Self, with a capital S, and you go to the part of you that got hurt by what happened, instead of pushing it away and locking it up, and you embrace it, and you bring it closer to you, which means going to your suffering, which is counter to what most of us try to do. But if you were to do that, and you could help it unload the feelings it got from the trauma, then you're not traumatized. What's traumatizing is something bad happens, these more vulnerable parts of us, the most sensitive parts of us get hurt or feel worthless because of what happened, or get terrified, and then we lock 'em away because we don't want to feel that feeling anymore, and everybody around us tells us to just let it go, just move on, don't look back. And so we wind up exiling our most sensitive parts simply because they got hurt. And then, when you have a lot of exiles, you feel more delicate. The world seems more dangerous 'cause anything could trigger that. And when they get triggered, they'll, they'll blow up. They'll take over. So it's like these flames of raw emotion come popping out. So other parts have t- are forced into these manager roles or, or these protective roles, and some of them are trying to manage your life so that you don't get triggered anymore, so that, for example, nobody gets close enough to you to trigger any of that, or so you-... you look really s- good, so you don't get rejected, or perform at a really high level to counter the worthlessness. Many of those become The Criticss, because in their effort to try to get you to look good, they're yelling at you try and behave and, and do what they want, so you look better. Uh, and, and then there are other what we call Manager/Protectors that are, I mean, for some people, particularly women, um, these massive caretaking parts that don't let them take care of themselves and take care of everybody else, and so I could go on and on. There's a lot of common Manager roles, and I wanna make clear as I'm talking about this that these are not the essence of the parts, and that's a big mistake that most of the field has made, is to assume The Critic is just a internalized critical parent voice instead of listening to it and hearing that it's desperately trying to protect you. So, none of these are what they seem. That's the role they've been forced into. And the analogy, again, is to a external family. Like, kids in, in dysfunctional families are forced into these extreme roles that aren't who they are. It's the role they got forced into by the dynamics of the family. So, the same is true with this internal family. So, most of us have a lot of what we call Managers. They got us here. They, they help us in our careers and they... Other systems would call them the Defenses or the Ego. Uh, and, and you know, in spirituality, they get vilified too. But their whole MO is keep everything under control, please everybody, and you'll survive. The world has a way of breaking through those defenses, triggering an Exile. When that happens, it's a big emergency, 'cause again, these flames of raw emotion are, are gonna overwhelm you and make you s- have trouble functioning, or even getting out of bed. So, there are other parts that immediately go into action to deal with that emergency, and in contrast to these Managers, they're impulsive, reactive, damn the torpedoes, I don't care about the collateral damage to your body, to your relationships. I just got to get you higher than those flames or douse them with some substance or distract you till they burn themselves out. So, we call those Firefighters. And again, these are just the roles. When released from these roles, they'll transform into being something very valuable.

Andrew Huberman 14:50 So, the Firefighter, the inner Firefighter role is one of the Exiles that surfaces-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 14:57 Sometimes.

Andrew Huberman 14:57 ... under conditions of, of a lot of emotion? Maybe we could, um... This is a beautiful description, and I'm completely on board this idea that we have multiple aspects of self or selves inside. Jung said that too, I think, right?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 15:10 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 15:10 Like, you know, um, so it's a-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 15:11 Jung had all this a long time ago.

Andrew Huberman 15:13 Yeah, and I, uh, what I, what I like about this Protectors/Managers versus, again, not versus because they're combative, but as a distinct category, the Exiles, is, um, just feels very true to me, um, and I like the, the directness of the language. So, maybe we could just,

Andrew Huberman 15:32 um, like, m- create a mental grid for people.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 15:36 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 15:37 Like if, let's say I came to you as a patient-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 15:39 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 15:39 ... and I said, "Listen, I, you know, I'm..." I'll just be dire- I'll be honest. Why not? We're, we're-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 15:43 Let's do it.

Andrew Huberman 15:44 Let's do it.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 15:44 Let's do it. (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 15:45 All right. Y- Secretly, I brought you here to get therapy.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 15:47 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 15:47 No. No, um, but okay. So I'm somebody who, uh, for a very long time has been able to organize his life. Um, I tend to have s- smooth interactions with my coworkers, great friendships. Um, I now have a very good relationship with my immediate family, r- very good, in fact. I'm still working on a few things with a few people, but I'm living in a mode of, uh, great, uh, joy and appreciation these days. However, um, I'm j- I'm not gonna give the details of this for sake of privacy, but, um, you know, the other day I was in a discussion with a family member, and, uh, they had a grievance with me that I felt we had already addressed, and it, um, and it became a very high friction conversation very quickly to the point where we tabled as an idea that maybe we just take some, like, serious space.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 16:37 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 16:38 Like, um, which was not reflective of how deeply I love this person or they love me.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 16:44 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 16:44 It was just a feeling of both of us just being in this, like, high-tension place, like, "Ugh." And, um, uh, fortunately, the conversation ended well with a path forward that involved more contact, not less-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 16:58 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 16:59 ... that I, that both of us feel really good about.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 17:01 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 17:01 But in that moment where I'm feeling overwhelmed-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 17:05 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 17:06 ... and they're feeling overwhelmed-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 17:07 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 17:09 ... what's going on there? We're both adults.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 17:11 So, overwhelmed with anger at each other, or-

Andrew Huberman 17:13 Frustration.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 17:14 Frustration, yeah. So-

Andrew Huberman 17:15 Frustration, like that, um, previous conversations, I, I felt I hadn't, um... I was saying things, uh, they were saying things, but I feel like there was so much underlying tension-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 17:30 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 17:30 ... based on a history of poor communication, nested on top of a, of a, of the, kind of an intensity of emotion that we both tend to carry.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 17:41 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 17:42 Um, and somehow, we just, like, couldn't parse things from that state.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 17:47 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 17:48 And, uh, so I sat in my chair, and I just told myself, "Okay, I'm gonna not say anything-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 17:52 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 17:53 ... for five minutes, because I know myself."

Dr. Richard Schwartz 17:55 Right.

Andrew Huberman 17:55 It's not that I thought I would say something really, uh, barbed wire, but I just thought, "This is not gonna work. Like, I'm, I'm slamming my head against a wall."

Dr. Richard Schwartz 18:03 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 18:04 They're not hearing me. I'm clearly not hearing them.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 18:07 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 18:08 And I, the thing that helped me through that was just, 'cause it was what was taught to me, I just decided to surrender.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 18:15 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 18:16 ... and the word surrender used to mean to me letting go of truth-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 18:19 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 18:20 ... and it felt really scary because when you say surrender, it's almost like saying, one context is surrender means you're right no matter... And you're right.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 18:27 I was just gonna say, that's right.

Andrew Huberman 18:28 But I've come to realize that surrender to me is just a, it's surrender in the moment.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 18:33 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 18:33 So that I can get, um, better optics.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 18:37 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 18:38 Internal and external optics. So to me, the, the thing of embracing surrender, in those types of moments, very uncomfortable.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 18:46 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 18:46 Uh, but I now have learned it's, it's a great, um, a great way to get perspective. Um, but even as I describe it, the, the whole situation (laughs) was so heavy.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 18:59 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 18:59 I came out of that call even though it ended well and was like, "Ugh."

Dr. Richard Schwartz 19:03 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 19:03 Like, "Ugh." That was, that was like, I'd never run a marathon, but I'd rather run a marathon than do two of those a week.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 19:11 Totally agree.

Andrew Huberman 19:12 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 19:12 And I had one of those with my wife a few days ago.

Andrew Huberman 19:14 Okay. (laughs) All right. Well...

Dr. Richard Schwartz 19:16 And yeah, very similar. Just, uh, caught that part and said, "Okay, let's just let it go for now, and we'll talk later." So I could give you my take on what happened, but-

Andrew Huberman 19:29 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 19:29 ... if you wanted to, we could just go in and do a little exploring.

Andrew Huberman 19:33 Sure.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 19:33 Yeah?

Andrew Huberman 19:34 Yeah,

Andrew Huberman 19:35 sure.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 19:35 Okay. Should we start with the frustrated, angry part?

Andrew Huberman 19:39 Sure.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 19:40 All right. You ready?

Andrew Huberman 19:42 I, I believe so, yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 19:43 Okay. (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 19:45 (laughs)

Dr. Richard Schwartz 19:45 So remember that, uh, feeling.

Andrew Huberman 19:48 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 19:49 And then focus on it and find it in your body, around your body.

Andrew Huberman 19:56 Okay.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 19:57 Where do you find it?

Andrew Huberman 19:58 It's between the middle of my midsection and up to like right behind my forehead. Like, there's pressure.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 20:06 That's great.

Andrew Huberman 20:06 In both places.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 20:07 It's great you have such clarity about it. So as you focus there, how do you feel toward this part of you?

Andrew Huberman 20:17 Oh, no, this... It's very unpleasant.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 20:19 So you don't like it?

Andrew Huberman 20:21 No, I don't like it.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 20:22 Yeah, which makes sense 'cause it does, you know, sometimes escalate things with your friend, and, uh, doesn't leave you feeling good. So I understand why you don't like it. But we're gonna ask the parts that don't like it to give us the space to just get curious about it and see if that's possible.

Andrew Huberman 20:43 Okay. Um, okay.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 20:48 So how do you feel toward it now?

Andrew Huberman 20:51 I feel a little bit of relaxation in the, in the, the head part of it.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 20:55 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 20:56 Um, yeah, it's, it's f- it's funny how when you asked me to localize it, it's so clear. It's like this thing inside me. It's like this, about the size of like a teddy bear that's just like, "Aw," but it's not a fr- it's not a good thing. It's like pushed up there. But then when you said to get curious about it, um, feels like it kind of drops down a little bit and kinda-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 21:15 That's great.

Andrew Huberman 21:15 ... kinda moves in a lit- maybe softens a little bit.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 21:17 So you do feel curious toward it?

Andrew Huberman 21:20 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 21:20 All right. So go ahead and ask it what it wants you to know about itself.

Andrew Huberman 21:25 Silently?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 21:26 Up to you, either way. Whichever is more comfortable.

Andrew Huberman 21:29 Well, since this is a podcast and none of this is comfortable anyway-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 21:33 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 21:33 ... for me to do in public, uh, (laughs) to, if I'm quite honest, um-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 21:37 Yeah, just ask inside.

Andrew Huberman 21:37 Sure. Uh, no, I'll, I'll do it out loud. Um-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 21:41 Okay.

Andrew Huberman 21:41 Okay, so what do you want me to know about you?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 21:45 You. Yeah, and just wait for the answer. Don't think. I know you've got a big cognitive part, so we're gonna ask that one to relax. And just whatever comes in terms of the answer, just wait for it.

Andrew Huberman 21:57 Mm-hmm. Well, my answer is based on the feeling that occurred immediately after asking it.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 22:04 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 22:04 Which was, uh, the answer was, um, I, I can dissipate, and then I kind of felt it dissipate.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 22:12 Okay.

Andrew Huberman 22:12 So it feels like an energy that when condensed, sucks.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 22:16 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 22:17 But when I look at it, softened a little bit, and then asked the question you asked, and then it feels like it just kind of went into the rest of my body, but not poisoning the rest of my body, just kind of, um, mixing in with, you know.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 22:30 Okay.

Andrew Huberman 22:30 Of course, we're speaking in t- complete, you know, in, in mystical terms here, but, um-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 22:34 Right. So it, it relaxed. It may not have t- dissipated in the way we think about that. It might have just relaxed more.

Andrew Huberman 22:42 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 22:43 But just keep asking it, what's it afraid would happen if in that context it didn't try to take over in the way that it did? Just ask that question.

Andrew Huberman 22:52 That if it, if it didn't try to take over?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 22:54 Yeah. What's it afraid would happen if it hadn't tried to take over?

Andrew Huberman 22:58 Hmm. Oh.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 22:59 Just wait for the answer.

Andrew Huberman 23:00 Yeah, that's a good question. Okay, so what would happen if you didn't take over my sys- system that way?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 23:07 That's right. That's right.

Andrew Huberman 23:07 Condense from my ster- from my stomach up to my head when I'm feeling that way.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 23:12 Yup. Don't think. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 23:16 Oh, the answers are coming really quick. Um, that I wouldn't be able to discern the truth.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 23:22 Okay. So the truth is really important to this part of you.

Andrew Huberman 23:26 Yeah. Yeah, because it tends to surface when I'm hearing something that I-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 23:31 Mm-hmm. That you know is wrong.

Andrew Huberman 23:32 ... that I, that I believe to be fundamentally untrue, typically about my thoughts or feelings, right?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 23:39 Okay.

Andrew Huberman 23:39 I've come, maybe with age-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 23:41 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 23:41 ... I've come to the conclusion that two people can look at the same interaction or same thing and have two very different versions of it.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 23:49 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 23:49 I'm okay with that.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 23:50 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 23:51 The part that I'm very, very sensitive to, people in my life know this, is when someone else tells me how I feel.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 23:57 Right.

Andrew Huberman 23:58 What my motives are or how I feel.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 24:00 So-

Andrew Huberman 24:00 That to me is like, whoo.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 24:02 Right.

Andrew Huberman 24:02 Like that, that's a kind of a hard, um, fast way to engage this thing.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 24:09 Okay, so just stay with this thing.

Andrew Huberman 24:10 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 24:10 Just stay with it.

Andrew Huberman 24:11 Okay.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 24:13 And let it know you get that, that having people misinterpret your motives is really, really hard for it.

Andrew Huberman 24:20 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 24:21 ... and ask it more about that. Just, again, don't think, but ask why that's so hard. What, why does that bother it so much, and-

Andrew Huberman 24:30 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 24:31 ... what's it afraid would happen if it let that go?

Andrew Huberman 24:34 Yeah, so what, why are you afraid to, or why do you have to step in-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 24:40 Yeah. Exactly.

Andrew Huberman 24:40 ... when that happens? My answer is not gonna be very satisfying for the listeners, but, or for me. Um, but it, it's saying because if you can't hold onto your truth, then nothing will make sense.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 25:01 So, there's something about making sense or not, nothing making sense that it's really scared of. Is that right?

Andrew Huberman 25:07 Yeah. (laughs) I mean, uh, I've, I decided to become a, a biologist, um, and to try and understand the meat inside our (laughs) heads and body that is the nervous system because I felt, and I still feel, that it, uh, it can reveal some fundamental facts or truths as, um-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 25:26 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 25:26 ... you know, understanding r- reality, as it were, is really important to me because I feel like humans, including myself, of course, um, are so prone to misinterpretation.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 25:41 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 25:43 So, the, like, the truth as a thing out there-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 25:47 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 25:47 ... I'm willing to let go of completely.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 25:49 Right.

Andrew Huberman 25:50 Uh, like completely.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 25:51 Right.

Andrew Huberman 25:51 The truth as it exists for knowing for certain what my motivations were-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 25:57 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 25:58 ... or what did or didn't happen, but typically, it's about motivation.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 26:01 Right.

Andrew Huberman 26:01 What did or didn't happen you usually can parse with somebody.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 26:04 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 26:04 Um, that's, that's something I feel I need to protect at all costs.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 26:09 Yeah. So, speaking of protect, and so this is a protector part, right? Ask it if it's protecting other parts of you that are vulnerable and get hurt when someone mis-, misattunes to what your motive is. Just ask that question. Don't think.

Andrew Huberman 26:27 Mm-hmm. That's an easy, that's a fast one. Not easy, but it's a fast one. Yeah, the part of me that, that, that feels injured-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 26:35 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 26:35 ... by that is the fact that I believe that I, at least at the beginning and throughout most of a relationship, and even if a relationship ends for whatever reason, that my, I know it's my nature to try and imagine as much goodness in the intent of the other person as possible.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 27:01 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 27:01 So, if I were to let go of this response, the, the-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 27:06 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 27:06 (laughs) I keep calling it, in my mind I'm calling it, like, this, like, it's like a titanium teddy bear-shaped thing, but it doesn't, it's doesn't feel like a t- it's like a titanium block there.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 27:16 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 27:18 Um, I would, um, potentially move into a mode of judgment-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 27:24 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 27:25 ... um, of them. It's interesting because I, there are many people from my past, and maybe even a few from my present, that people close to me who are pretty well-qualified tell me, like, I should dislike them or-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 27:40 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 27:41 ... cut them out of my life.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 27:42 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 27:42 And, um, I don't n- there are a few, maybe one or two instances of people I've cut out of my life, but it's my inclination always to just try and see what can-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 27:52 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 27:53 ... what can exist.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 27:54 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 27:54 So that, and that part feels important-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 27:56 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 27:56 ... to me. I don't know why it's important now that I come to think about it. Like, um...

Dr. Richard Schwartz 28:00 Well, we can ask, but-

Andrew Huberman 28:01 Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 28:02 ... so I'm, what I'm hearing is this guy, this titanium guy-

Andrew Huberman 28:05 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 28:06 ... is keeping at bay another part that can be very judgemental of the other person.

Andrew Huberman 28:12 Yeah, I don't like feeling that.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 28:13 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 28:14 It, it feels energetically wasteful.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 28:16 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 28:16 And it feels, more than that, it feels incredibly sad.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 28:19 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 28:20 It's sort of like, I think to, to accept that part of myself is to kind of give up on some fantasy, which is probably an unrealistic fantasy, which is why I'm calling it a fantasy, I realize.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 28:33 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 28:34 Yeah. Like this, um, because I, I look at, and I always have since I was a kid, I look at people as we are among the animals. We're the curators of the Earth 'cause we're good at technology development, but aside from that, and our, like, just like you wouldn't... I can't imagine that a raccoon, you know, looks at another raccoon and is like, "That's a bad raccoon."

Dr. Richard Schwartz 28:56 Right.

Andrew Huberman 28:56 It's just a rac- rabid raccoon.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 28:58 Right.

Andrew Huberman 28:59 You know? And they just, um, I, I sort of yearn for the same-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 29:04 Yeah. But-

Andrew Huberman 29:05 ... um, sen- the same se- sensitivity to our own species.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 29:09 I get that.

Andrew Huberman 29:10 Yeah. Like, I don't hate anybody.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 29:13 Well, there might be parts of you that do, but...

Andrew Huberman 29:15 I hate behaviors.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 29:17 Okay.

Andrew Huberman 29:17 I hate, um, things that people have said or done, not, certainly mostly to other people, not to me. But I, yeah, being, like, really being angry at someone in a, in a pervasive way, not just in the moment-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 29:31 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 29:32 ... is, is something that's very difficult for me.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 29:35 But what I'm hearing, what the, what we heard from this part, it's afraid if it doesn't do this, i- uh, a part that judges the other, probably in a, you know, not-so-nice way-

Andrew Huberman 29:47 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 29:47 ... would be released.

Andrew Huberman 29:49 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 29:49 Does that sound right?

Andrew Huberman 29:51 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 29:51 So, there is that part in there. It's just that you've been able to kind of exile it.

Andrew Huberman 29:56 Yes. Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 29:58 Okay.

Andrew Huberman 29:58 Yeah. I'm comfortable with the idea that you take the appropriate amount of distance, could be zero or it could be near infinite, but that I should take the appropriate amount of distance from things and people so that I can be in the most loving stance-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 30:14 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 30:15 ... toward them-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 30:15 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 30:15 ... or that.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 30:16 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 30:17 I'm not trying to sound technical here with all the parallel constructions, but I've thought this through a lot. Like, there's some people that I, um...... that there's no limit to the extent to which I, I wanna interact with them. You know?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 30:29 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 30:30 We, we have other things to do, we're not gonna spend all our time together. And then there are other people that I love them, but I, I know that I have to keep a certain amount of distance in order to continue to love them. This is the same thing.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 30:41 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 30:42 So in that moment, it's almost like, but I, it's coming up without my conscious thing. It's not like saying, "Listen, that's the kind of person I can, you know, talk to, like, once, once a month or something." And I'll just add, you know, in professional settings, not now, but in the distant past when I was in a very hierarchical structure of, uh, I'm still in academia, I still teach, but not, um, running research anymore, um, formally. You know, like I had a couple, um, senior colleagues that I really loved and respected, but that they, um, they would say or do things that I thought were frankly unethical-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 31:19 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 31:19 ... to other people. And to me, that, I felt them as kind of abrasive.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 31:22 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 31:23 So I might, like the physical manifestation of this is I would make it a point to, like, walk past their office door quickly so that they didn't say, "Hey," 'cause I don't wanna interact.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 31:33 Right.

Andrew Huberman 31:33 But I n- I don't, I'm not familiar with cutting people out of my life.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 31:37 Right.

Andrew Huberman 31:37 I'm just not familiar with doing that. I don't b- I, I sort of don't believe in it as a value.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 31:42 Let's pause for a second.

Andrew Huberman 31:43 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 31:43 And I'll give you a little overview of where we are.

Andrew Huberman 31:45 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 31:46 So we started with this guy-

Andrew Huberman 31:47 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 31:47 ... who came up with your friend-

Andrew Huberman 31:49 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 31:49 ... and is trying to protect that relationship, because if you continue to be misunderstood in terms of your motives, it would have an impact. Does that sound right?

Andrew Huberman 32:01 Yeah, yeah. The only thing I'll, uh, this is a family member.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 32:04 Okay.

Andrew Huberman 32:04 Um, yeah. That not that matters, but close family member.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 32:06 Got it.

Andrew Huberman 32:07 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 32:08 And in exploring this part, asking what it's afraid would happen if it didn't do that.

Andrew Huberman 32:16 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 32:17 So there's this other part that might come out-

Andrew Huberman 32:20 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 32:21 ... that would be very judgmental of that family member-

Andrew Huberman 32:23 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 32:24 ... and really might have a bad influence on your relationship with that person. Does that sound right?

Andrew Huberman 32:30 That's correct.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 32:31 Okay. So we have these two... Well, we have you who's noticing all this, which we should talk more about, and then we have these two parts that are sort of polarized, but, uh, one, the judgmental one, you really don't like. And so you really go to lengths to keep at bay, and you're, you kind of admire this guy. Uh, and, and, but you also know that he can get in the way at times too. Does all that sound right?

Andrew Huberman 33:03 Yeah, that's right, because I'm describing a recent situation where the presence of this, like, titanium teddy bear (laughs) ... Sorry. The, I don't know why that's amusing to me to say that. Um, the shape of a teddy bear, I'm not seeing a teddy bear in there, but the, rough- roughly that size and shape. Um, it creates a protection, but a pressure internally.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 33:23 Yep.

Andrew Huberman 33:23 It's super uncomfortable.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 33:24 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 33:25 It's actually taken me a couple days to dissipate this.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 33:27 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 33:28 Um, and I do think, uh, somewhat counter to the way I'm describing it, it doesn't prevent me from saying something.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 33:40 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 33:41 It actually, if it's, if it's too much, it's almost like that's when words start coming out-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 33:45 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 33:46 ... and they're not kind.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 33:48 Right.

Andrew Huberman 33:49 So it's not a real protector in the sense like it's preventing me from a, a course of action I don't wanna take.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 33:56 Right.

Andrew Huberman 33:57 It's more like feels like it's kind of extruding all this stuff. And obviously, I'm responsible for my words and actions. I know that, but it does feel like it, it creates kind of a, a v-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 34:06 Kinda, kinda takes over.

Andrew Huberman 34:07 It takes over.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 34:08 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 34:08 Yeah. The, that's the way to put it.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 34:10 So let's, let's, um, go through that again. So, uh, first of all, I'm so grateful that you're willing to be this vulnerable-

Andrew Huberman 34:19 Sure.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 34:19 ... and ex- expose these parts. Uh, so this guy, actually they're both probably what we call firefighters.

Andrew Huberman 34:29 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 34:30 And very reactive. There's maybe some other very vulnerable part that could, is involved here we haven't heard about. But, uh, if I were to be continue, we continue to work together, I would work to get permission to go to the judgmental guy too.

Andrew Huberman 34:46 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 34:47 And what you would find is he's a protector too. He's not just a bunch of negative thoughts about people. And as I was hearing earlier, you've spent a lot of time in your life, um, trying to be fair to people and to not judge them and to see them, what they do is just their behaviors and not who they are. Which is great, but in the process of doing that sometimes, we wind up having to push away the parts that wanna judge and wanna hate and so on. And what I find is if we can go there and get to know them, they're just protectors too, and they're young, and they, uh, when they are able to unload the, the hate they might carry or the judgment, they'll transform. So this is a model of transformation in that sense. And it's, there are no bad parts. You go to everybody in there-

Andrew Huberman 35:52 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 35:53 ... regardless of how you think they, how bad they are, and you get curious about 'em and you learn how they're trying to protect. And then we help 'em out of their protective roles and help them trust there's a you, who you talked about with Martha, who can run things, that they don't have to do it 'cause most of them are young, and get them to trust this you to handle your family member rather than they have to take over or, or try to take over in the way they did.... this is making any sense?

Andrew Huberman 36:29 Yeah, it makes total sense. I- I- You know, what you said at the beginning, uh, permission to go to the, um, judgmental part. I was just, um, my mind, um, flits, when I hear that, flits to, um, you know, two possibilities. One's a novel possibility, one's a familiar possibility. The familiar possibility is, if I were to really feel the disappointment that I'm feeling when this-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 36:57 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 36:57 ... pattern in the, in the other person-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 37:00 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 37:00 ... shows up again 'cause at least it seems to... I'm, I'm very familiar with the pattern.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 37:04 Right.

Andrew Huberman 37:05 Then, um, uh, it would fundamentally, like, change the way that I feel about them.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 37:12 That's right.

Andrew Huberman 37:12 Like, I'm trying to hold on to the goodness in there.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 37:15 The relationship, that's right. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 37:15 Right. But of course, I, I, I want to be very clear, not just for anyone listening, but for myself too, that, um, clearly the, the, um, the protecting, uh, role of this titanium teddy bear, um, has created something where what... The times when things have broken through from my side-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 37:35 Right.

Andrew Huberman 37:35 ... they're not kind.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 37:36 Right.

Andrew Huberman 37:37 And/or they're spoken in a way that just is not constructive.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 37:42 Right.

Andrew Huberman 37:42 Right. Um, so yeah. And then the, the second possibility is that... I hadn't considered this possibility, but the, the second possibility is that, uh, were I to let myself feel that disappointment-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 38:00 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 38:01 ...that maybe the relationship could persist.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 38:03 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 38:05 Um, like I've been looking at those things as mutually-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 38:08 Exclusive.

Andrew Huberman 38:08 Exclusive.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 38:09 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 38:10 Um, and as I say all this, um, I also realize that, well, the, the, the honest disclaimer is, like, I don't want to give the impression that I don't judge people. I'm human, and I certainly do. I'm just saying that when there's a relationship that I wish to maintain-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 38:28 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 38:28 ... I'll go to great lengths to push aside kno- knowledge of ex- of my own experience-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 38:33 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 38:34 ... and/or just judgment.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 38:35 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 38:35 I've made this r- um, I've engaged in this pattern in ways that were, ended up being extremely destructive to me by completely, like, putting the blinders on to things that were right in front of me-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 38:48 And that's what I'm talking about.

Andrew Huberman 38:48 ... consciously.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 38:49 That's what I'm talking about.

Andrew Huberman 38:50 Because I adored-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 38:51 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 38:51 ... uh, the person so much-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 38:53 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 38:53 ... in other dimensions, like that, you know. And, you know, it's not a, for lack of a better word, a holistic way to approach things. But I also will say that in contrast to those types of relationships, the, the relationships where this i- where the, the titanium teddy bear is not required-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 39:10 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 39:11 ... feel to me, so like by comparison, but also in the absolute scale, feel to me-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 39:16 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 39:16 ... like the best-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 39:17 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 39:18 ... possible relationships one could have. They're like pinch-me type of relationships-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 39:21 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 39:21 ... like my friendships, some of my relationships to family, like my coworkers, and, and there are others too. Um, certainly, I had romantic relationships like that. Relationships... My relationship to my dog-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 39:32 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 39:33 ... as trivial as people might think that seems that the contrast of that, like where there's no need for this protector part-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 39:40 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 39:41 ... it's like the best thing because it feels completely safe and uninhibited.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 39:47 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 39:48 I never have to worry that I'm gonna be taken over from the inside.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 39:51 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 39:52 Nor do I ever worry that I'm gonna, like, really screw up.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 39:56 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 39:57 And I hope that if I do screw up, they'll tell me, but like it's, uh, it's the a- complete absence of fear.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 40:04 So let me check in and just see how this has been to discuss and, and focus and so on.

Andrew Huberman 40:11 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 40:11 What's it been like to do this process?

Andrew Huberman 40:13 Hmm. Um, it's a lot in the sense that, um, I don't like feeling that titanium thing.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 40:24 Teddy bear?

Andrew Huberman 40:24 Teddy bear. (laughs) Um, uh, it's very, it's been very informative, so it's balanced by that. Um, and maybe that's why I, I went into a little riff about the pleasant relationships-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 40:35 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 40:36 ... and how, um-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 40:37 How he feels.

Andrew Huberman 40:37 ... how outsized positive they are for me. They're, they're like a, they're like a salve and an elixir for me-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 40:44 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 40:45 ... um, that, uh... So maybe I give myself a little, like, washover with that 'cause it, it's pretty uncomfortable.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 40:50 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 40:51 Um, but it's been, it's really informative. Um, and it also tells me that the internal family systems work that I did with someone else was, uh, an attempt at this, but so very different, which makes sense-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 41:01 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 41:01 ... because this is, uh, your art and science, uh...

Dr. Richard Schwartz 41:03 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 41:04 So, so I'm grateful.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 41:05 Yeah. So-

Andrew Huberman 41:06 Yeah. Yeah, it feels good.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 41:07 What I was saying earlier is, if we were to pursue it, we could get to the point where the t- teddy bear guy could unload the feelings he carries that makes it so uncomfortable, and he would transform.

Andrew Huberman 41:21 How would I, how would, uh, we go about doing that just so-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 41:24 So you, you would focus on him again.

Andrew Huberman 41:27 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 41:27 You would explore more of what he's protecting.

Andrew Huberman 41:30 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 41:31 Either we would go to the guy he's trying to keep at bay that would ruin a relationship, or often these parts are protecting something much vul- vulnerable from your past.

Andrew Huberman 41:40 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 41:41 Some young part that's stuck somewhere in the past that has a big issue about being misunderstood in terms of motives or something.

Andrew Huberman 41:50 Yeah, it's, uh, um, not that I need, uh, clarity on this right now, but it's more that it protects the possibility of a relationship at all.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 42:00 Yeah, I get that.

Andrew Huberman 42:01 Like, I think the fear is like, if I were to look through my lens of truth at what's happened or is happening in the moment, if I were a "better boundaried" person-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 42:10 Right.

Andrew Huberman 42:11 ... it'd be done yesterday.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 42:12 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 42:13 But, so it's sort of like a desire to live out a fantasy.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 42:18 Got it.

Andrew Huberman 42:19 I mean, if I'm honest. It's... Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 42:20 So th- so that would be the part that we would go to that it protects that has this fantasy of what a relationship should be or could be-

Andrew Huberman 42:29 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 42:31 ... who might be stuck somewhere in the past-And we would learn, we would witness, you know, you talked with Martha about compassionate witness. We would witness where he's stuck and what was happening back then.

Andrew Huberman 42:43 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 42:44 And then I would have you go in and get him out of that time period. And then we'd have him unload the desire for that fantasy that, uh, keeps you getting hurt. And then I would have you s-... Have the teddy bear see it doesn't have to protect him anymore, and then we would help the teddy bear unload the feelings he carries, and then he could relax, and they would all start to trust you, which we should talk about a little bit now. Who is you? Who's separate from these others?

Andrew Huberman 43:18 Yeah. And for the record, I never owned a teddy bear as a kid.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 43:20 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 43:21 I had a, I had a stuffed frog.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 43:22 I had a teddy bear.

Andrew Huberman 43:23 I had a t-... Well, I'm not embarrassed to tell you I had a stuffed frog that I loved, his name was Freddie the Frog.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 43:27 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 43:27 And, um, uh, but, uh, so I don't know where the teddy bear thing came up, but it was... The sh- the shape is so very clear. Um...

Dr. Richard Schwartz 43:34 But let me, let me just, uh, elaborate on what I...

Andrew Huberman 43:37 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 43:37 ... was just saying 'cause...

Andrew Huberman 43:38 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 43:38 ... when you separated from him and you found him here, and I asked you how you felt toward him, and you had an attitude about him at first, remember? And we got that to relax and you got curious about him.

Andrew Huberman 43:52 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 43:53 Then you started to access more of what I call yourself with a capital S.

Andrew Huberman 43:58 So, it comes through curiosity.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 44:00 Comes... Well, start, often starts with curiosity.

Andrew Huberman 44:03 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 44:04 And just to backtrack a little bit, so when I would have, uh, these clients in the early days starting to work with these parts, like the critic and so on, uh, and I... Once I got hip to the fact they weren't what they seemed and they deserved to be listened to rather than fought with.

Andrew Huberman 44:23 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 44:23 So, I would, I would help the parts that hated them step out, and clients could do that pretty readily. So, and, and when I... Then I would say, "Now, how do you feel toward this critic?" And spontaneously, people would say, "I'm just curious about why it calls me names all day." Or even would say, "I feel sorry for it that it has to do this. I wanna help it." And when they were in that state, and I would ask, "What part of you is that? That's great. Let's keep that around." They'd say, "That's not a part like these others. That's me. That's my essence or that's myself." So, I came to call that the Self with a capital S. 40 years later, thousands of people doing this all over the world, turns out that that Self is in everybody just beneath the surface of these parts so that when they open space, you can access it quickly, and it has all these great qualities, what I call the eight C's. So, curious, but also calm, confident, compassionate, courageous, clear, creative, and connected. And that person knows how to heal these parts. So, once I get somebody in a lot of what we call Self, I'll just say, "Okay, what do you want to say to this part? And how does, how does it react? And now what do you want to do with the part?" I can kind of get out of the way. And one of the hallmarks of IFS, as opposed to a lot of other therapies, is that it's not so much about me becoming that, you know, good attachment figure to these hurting parts of you, these inner children. You become that. You become the good...

Andrew Huberman 46:08 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 46:08 ... attachment figure yourself.

Andrew Huberman 46:10 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 46:10 Or the good inner parent or the good internal leader for these parts, and they come to trust you as a leader, and then you get into it with your family member and you just remind the part, "No, I can handle this. Just let me, let me stay." And now when that happens with my wife, sometimes, (laughs) not on a good day...

Andrew Huberman 46:32 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 46:32 ... I can stay in those C word qualities and have a totally different conversation with her than if that protector took over.

Andrew Huberman 46:41 I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is an all-in-one vitamin mineral probiotic drink with adaptogens. I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring this podcast. The reason I started taking AG1 and the reason I still take AG1 is because it is the highest quality and most complete foundational nutritional supplement. What that means is that AG1 ensures that you're getting all the necessary vitamins, minerals, and other micronutrients to form a strong foundation for your daily health. AG1 also has probiotics and prebiotics that support a healthy gut microbiome. Your gut microbiome consists of trillions of microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune system status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more. So, I've consistently found that when I take AG1 daily, my digestion is improved, my immune system is more robust, and my mood and mental focus are at their best. In fact, if I could take just one supplement, that supplement would be AG1. If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer. They'll give you five free travel packs plus a year supply of vitamin D3K2 with your order of AG1. Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim this special offer.Today's episode is also brought to us by Wealthfront. I've been using Wealthfront for my savings and my investing for nearly a decade, and I absolutely love it. At the start of every year, I set new goals, and one of my goals for 2025 is to focus on saving money. Since I have Wealthfront, I'll keep that savings in my Wealthfront Cash Account, where I'm able to earn 4% annual percentage yield on my deposits, and you can as well. With Wealthfront, you can earn 4% APY on your cash from partner banks until you're ready to either spend that money or invest it. With Wealthfront, you also get free instant withdrawals to eligible accounts every day, even on weekends and holidays. The 4% APY is not a promotional rate, and there's no limit to what you can deposit and earn. And you can even get protection for up to $8 million through FDIC insurance provided through Wealthfront's partner banks. Wealthfront gives you free instant withdrawals, where it takes just minutes to transfer your money to eligible external accounts. It also takes just minutes to transfer your cash from the Cash Account to any of Wealthfront's automated investment accounts when you're ready to invest. There are already a million people using Wealthfront to save more, earn more, and build long-term wealth. Earn 4% APY on your cash today. If you'd like to try Wealthfront, go to wealthfront.com/huberman to receive a free $50 bonus with a $500 deposit into your first Cash Account. That's wealthfront.com/huberman to get started now. This has been a paid testimonial of Wealthfront. Wealthfront Brokerage isn't a bank. The APY is subject to change. For more information, see the episode

Andrew Huberman 49:24 description. I'm struck by a couple of things that I think people will be, um, if I may, wise to think about. Uh, one is, yeah, in the classic psychodynamic or CBT model of therapy, right, the, it's clear that the, the client or patient sometimes it's called, right?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 49:45 Patient, sure.

Andrew Huberman 49:45 Uh, pa- patient, um, therapist relationship is one where it, it takes on certain, um, components that exist in the outside world with other people, and it's always, um, slightly bothered me, um, slash concerned me that that's the structure.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 50:04 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 50:04 And as you said, in, uh, IFS, internal family systems, you become your own-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 50:10 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 50:11 ... kind of therapist, if-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 50:11 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 50:11 ... if you will.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 50:12 Totally.

Andrew Huberman 50:12 Uh, for lack of a better way to put it. I like that because, um, uh, there's so much discussion nowadays about, you know, parenting yourself and-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 50:22 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 50:22 ... this kind of thing, and, um, learning to mother yourself and father yourself, and I actually think there's great value in that.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 50:28 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 50:28 I mean, I learned by living alone, you know, how to cook for myself and clean for myself.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 50:32 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 50:32 These are, I'm mapping to stereotypes here, but, um, but also to protect myself and to-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 50:37 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 50:37 ... you know, organize myself and be very, very disciplined.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 50:40 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 50:40 And, um, actually running a laboratory was a great, um, teaching there, because you're basically a single academic parent to, to all these, these people.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 50:49 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 50:49 So you have to, you, you quickly realize where you lack maternal instincts and where-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 50:53 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 50:53 ... you may lack or over, uh, uh, overemphasize, or have hypertrophied paternal instincts. It used-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 50:58 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 50:58 You, so that was a good forum to, to see my weaknesses.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 51:02 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 51:02 Um, and hopefully some strengths too. So I like this idea that, that one can play those roles for oneself. Um, how is IFS typically done if somebody doesn't have access to a therapist who's expert in it?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 51:16 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 51:17 Or is that really the only proper gateway into it?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 51:20 No. So-

Andrew Huberman 51:21 'Cause I'm sitting here with the master, the, the founder, and, um, and I'm very grateful, by the way, for the work we just did, so thank-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 51:30 Good, good.

Andrew Huberman 51:30 ... you. It feels good. I, I-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 51:32 It was a privilege.

Andrew Huberman 51:33 Yeah, thank you. Yeah, likewise. Um, but most people won't have direct one-on-one access to you.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 51:39 Right.

Andrew Huberman 51:39 So, um, it's very experiential.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 51:44 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 51:44 Um, I imagine in books and courses people can learn how to do this, and by the way, this isn't, uh, this was not, uh, preconceived as a-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 51:53 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 51:53 ... as a pitch for books and courses.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 51:55 That was a pitch.

Andrew Huberman 51:55 But I'm wondering, like, if, can somebody do this on their own the very first time?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 51:59 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 51:59 That, that's what I want to know.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 52:00 Yeah, yeah. So for a long time, I resisted trying to take this directly to the public, because I learned the hard way that some systems, particularly people with huge amounts of trauma, are quite delicate.

Andrew Huberman 52:14 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 52:15 And if you start going to these, you know, the part we talked about that's vulnerable inside that has this view of relationships, this kind of idealized view of, of relationships of yours, uh, would be what I call an exile, that if we were to go to it, and we're, you know, we won't today, because it's, requires a lot of vulnerability. But if we were to, a lot of ex- supreme protectors might come out, and then people start to get scared. So, uh, so it took a long time to figure out how we might bring it to the public in a safer way, and so we just put out a, a workbook for people. And it doesn't involve necessarily going to those places, but there's a huge amount you can do just by working the way we started to with these protectors and getting to know them, and know that they're not you. They're just a part trying their best- And know it's not anything negative. That judgmental part you've got such an attitude about, or fear of, uh, if you were g- just to begin getting curious about it and getting to know it a bit, you'd find out that it's a very valuable part that has a lot of dis- discernment, like you said. You know, and, and wanted, wants desperately to keep you from getting in these relationships where you get hurt, and get so judgmental because you don't listen to it. Do you follow what I'm saying?

Andrew Huberman 53:47 I do, I do. I, in fact, I, something pops to mind, maybe I could just ask you about it. I, um, my mind's right on what you're saying, but, you know, something occurred to me as you said it.... which is, uh, if I were to, for instance, really feel the feeling of, like, "Hey, that's really screwed up," or, like, "That's not..." Like, actually feel the disappointment or judgment-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 54:10 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 54:10 ... that this (laughs) titanium teddy bear is trying to protect against. Um, I realize it leads to a lot of role confusion-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 54:18 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 54:18 ... and identity confusion.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 54:20 That's right.

Andrew Huberman 54:20 And I'll just be very blunt. Uh, this is probably not the best thing to do on a podcast, but I'm gonna do it anyway, which is, you know, th- this is how I feel about modern politics.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 54:29 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 54:29 I see things on the left-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 54:31 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 54:32 ... that make sense to me-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 54:33 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 54:33 ... and things that are, to me, just absolutely ludicrous, inappropriate, and-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 54:37 Me too. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 54:38 ... offensive, and, like, just badly wrong.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 54:41 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 54:42 I see things on the right that make a ton of sense to me, and also things that are inappropriate, offensive, and wrong.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 54:48 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 54:49 And as a consequence, I'm trying to see the best... The, the goodness in both sides-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 54:52 Right.

Andrew Huberman 54:53 ... and just kind of create this kind of, uh, Swiss cheese model of, of the world.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 54:57 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 54:57 I'm talking about politics 'cause it's just simpler to do, and I... People at least know the groups we're talking about. And, but then it, it leaves me in a place of no affiliation-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 55:07 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 55:07 ... and I'm then between one of two stances, one of just kind of standing there being like, "Yeah, well, there's no real position in the middle that is an official position in the middle." But it also makes me just want to put up the middle finger to both-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 55:23 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 55:24 ... and say, "I'm a double hater." But of course, I'm an adult and a citizen who cares about people in the country. And so-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 55:30 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 55:30 ... I feel like, to be an adult, I can't opt out. But there's... Like, I feel unaffiliated.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 55:35 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 55:36 I feel like there's no option for me. And th- and this maps pretty well to, I think, the identity and role confusion-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 55:44 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 55:44 ... that I feel when I, um, place my, my... Again, understanding the truth is a, is a complicated thing. But my, my judgment on things and people is like, "Well, then what is my role as a son?"

Dr. Richard Schwartz 55:56 Right, right.

Andrew Huberman 55:56 "What is my role as a, as a partner? What is my role if this thing is true?"

Dr. Richard Schwartz 56:01 Right.

Andrew Huberman 56:01 And so it's a way I'm realizing of, of protecting the simplicity of a role.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 56:06 That's right.

Andrew Huberman 56:07 And I did grow up in a home where, like, the roles were like, you know, you're a son, you do certain things.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 56:11 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 56:12 Like, you know, you do... You know, and, um, uh, so... But I also have a rebellious side to me. So the, the, the role confusion is something that I imagine a lot of people are familiar with.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 56:26 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 56:27 Um, and when one... And I also believe that when you just really say, "Well, they did something bad, therefore, all bad, therefore, I'm part of the opposite team."

Dr. Richard Schwartz 56:37 Right.

Andrew Huberman 56:38 That, to me, is an unlived life.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 56:40 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 56:41 It's like, it's like, it's a, a... But I see a lot of people do it.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 56:43 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 56:43 And actually, sometimes, I'm envious of people that have that ability-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 56:47 That have that... Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 56:47 ... because they seem so... They seem so unconflicted.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 56:50 Right, right.

Andrew Huberman 56:51 Um, so it's a tough thing to be a thinking, feeling person-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 56:53 It is, it is.

Andrew Huberman 56:54 ... at the level of nuance.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 56:55 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 56:55 It kind of sucks sometimes.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 56:57 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 56:57 I'd rather do that than, than, um, be a double hater or, um, just cleanly opt in.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 57:06 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 57:07 Does that make sense?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 57:08 To- totally makes sense.

Andrew Huberman 57:09 Okay.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 57:09 And what I'm hearing is that, when you're looking at a person or a political party or issue in the world, you'll hear from these conflicted parts. They each have perspective, just like our country now hears from these conflicted parts. And, but they're... You don't have a lot of access to what I'm calling self in those contexts.

Andrew Huberman 57:31 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 57:32 'Cause C, one of the C words is clarity. So again, as I was listening to you and Martha, you were talking about how there are times where you, you just have this sense in your body of what's right or what's true.

Andrew Huberman 57:45 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 57:46 That's what I'm calling self. Self has that clarity, uh, and self sees injustice. And self... Some of those C words are, um, courage, confidence, and clarity. So there's a impulse also to act to correct imbalance, to correct injustice too. So self isn't a kind of passive witness, as it is in a lot of spiritual traditions in IFS. It's an active inner leader, it's an active out- external leader. And too often, our actions are driven by these protective parts, and that's true in our politics now too.

Andrew Huberman 58:28 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 58:29 Um, so one of my goals is to try to bring more self-leadership to the world, to, to all these conflicts. Uh, but to do that, people have to unburden. They have to release these extreme beliefs and emotions they got from their traumas in the past. We have a concept we call legacy burdens. So many people have inherited these extreme beliefs and emotions that came down through their ancestors, and drive their, their parts, drive their extremes. And many conflicts in the world are driven by these legacy burdens. And we've gotten good at helping people unload these, these things.

Andrew Huberman 59:13 Yeah, we've seen this in the Middle East recently.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 59:15 Totally.

Andrew Huberman 59:16 Right.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 59:16 And we... You know, we're doing a lot... We're doing a lot of work in the Middle East. So we have training programs there. We have... And one of my visions is to have large-scale legacy unburdenings, where large groups of people come together and we help them unload the Holocaust legacy burdens on the one side, and the, you know, the 1941 legacy burdens on the Palestinian side, and have more self accessible to each side. And when... Like, when we do couples therapy or we do other kinds of negotiated conflict, if people's parts start getting into it, we'll just say, "Time out." You sort of did this on your own with your family member.

Andrew Huberman 59:58 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 59:59 Just say, "Time out. Want both of you to go inside, find the parts that have been doing the speaking..."... don't come back until you can speak for them, but not from them. And come back in, in these C-word qualities, in that state of self. If we can hold people in that, it's really easy to get out of the conflict. If, if their protectors are going at it all the time, conflicts never change, so.

Andrew Huberman 1:00:27 Do you think that people who have the reflex or the ability to, um, kind of somaticize a bit, like I obviously, I, I don't think of myself as somebody who's, like, psychosomatic, I don't have stomachaches and headaches and stuff unless I've caught a virus, (laughs) you know? But, but I can feel where certain things are in my body-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:00:50 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:00:50 ... uh, pretty quickly-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:00:52 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:00:52 ... and always have. Um, do you think that IFS lends itself better to people who, you know, feel things somatically versus people that are, like, really cognitive and in their head? 'Cause I have that component too, I can actually feel the switch.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:01:10 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:01:10 Like, I do it through, I'll go into, like, a narrative, and then-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:01:13 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:01:13 ... I start to see the structure, like, up here.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:01:15 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:01:16 And, um-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:01:17 Yeah, that happened-

Andrew Huberman 1:01:18 ... and it, yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:01:18 ... several times when we were, we were working together.

Andrew Huberman 1:01:20 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:01:21 Like, I would have you stay with something, and then the narrator part would kick in.

Andrew Huberman 1:01:25 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:01:26 And, and then I would try to refocus you.

Andrew Huberman 1:01:28 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:01:29 But, you know, I've lived in Boston for 10 years, so (laughs) I worked with lots of cognitive people who didn't know their bodies, who had, you know, just were in that rat race to try and get tenure and so on.

Andrew Huberman 1:01:43 Been there.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:01:44 Yes, me too. (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:01:45 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:01:46 And-

Andrew Huberman 1:01:46 Yeah, tenure's nice, but, um, one should tend to their emotional selves-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:01:50 Exactly.

Andrew Huberman 1:01:50 ... while they're, while they're (laughs) , while they're pursuing it.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:01:52 But just to answer your question, they can do it, but we first have to start with that thinking part, and get it on board, and get it to step out, and to s- to stay out long enough that they can feel their bodies. So yeah, you know, it, it lends itself to anybody, but with people like that, it takes awhile for that thinking part to trust that it's safe to let them in their, into their bodies.

Andrew Huberman 1:02:20 So if we were to just step back for a moment and, um, do sort of a top contour summary of the process, um, w- someone brings forward a, uh, a memory, a, a recent or distant memory of something that made them feel not good. And you try and localize some sensation in the body-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:02:43 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:02:43 ... get a sense of its location.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:02:45 Let me pause there-

Andrew Huberman 1:02:45 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:02:45 ... I'll tell you why.

Andrew Huberman 1:02:46 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:02:47 Because if they find it in their body-

Andrew Huberman 1:02:49 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:02:49 ... they're, and they direct the question there, and they wait for the answer to come from there?

Andrew Huberman 1:02:53 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:02:54 They're less likely to be in their head.

Andrew Huberman 1:02:55 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:02:56 So-

Andrew Huberman 1:02:56 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:02:57 ... it sort of short circuits that thinking part, and so many people come to therapy, and that thinking part thinks it's supposed to do the therapy, it's, you know, CBT or whatever. Even a lot of the more exper- uh, not experiential, but a lot of the more psychodynamic therapies, the thinking part is really trying to explain why they feel stuff.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:19 Right.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:03:19 So, this is getting them out of that and getting them to actually listen inside, into what they think is their body, but it's really these parts that live down there-

Andrew Huberman 1:03:29 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:03:30 ... that they haven't had access to 'cause the thinking part is running things so much.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:35 Got it. And then one places some attention from the stance of curiosity to, like, "What's there? What's it, what's it trying to say?"

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:03:44 Exactly. So-

Andrew Huberman 1:03:45 Um, and then you start to reveal the, the underlying layers of what's it protecting-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:03:50 Exactly.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:50 ... what are the, what are those things that are protective trying to say?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:03:53 Yeah, it's not even you're trying to reveal, it's just that you're asking these questions, and the answers start coming.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:00 I see. Oh, I love this, 'cause I'm a big believer in seeding the unconscious mind-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:04:03 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:03 ... and then letting things surface either in sleep or in meditative states or, um

Andrew Huberman 1:04:12 ... Has internal family systems been combined with some of the therapies that are now getting tested, um, still in clinical trial stage, uh, around, um, psychedelics?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:04:24 Yeah. In fact, two days ago, we just completed a, uh, IFS and ketamine retreat.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:32 Oh, wow.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:04:33 So we had, and, and we're doing it more and more. Like I said, I'm trying to bring this more out of the psychotherapy world. So, we invited 32 leaders to come of various kinds, and had, uh, three days where they would do ketamine and then do IFS. The nice thing about psychedelics is it puts those manager parts to sleep somehow a lot of the time.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:56 Yeah. I've, I've been open about the fact, and I always have to provide the disclaimer? I am, I, I don't just say this for, to protect me, I say this to protect listeners, that I do think, um, young people should avoid psychedelics. The brain is-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:05:09 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:05:09 ... already in a psychedelic state. (laughs)

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:05:10 I do too, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:05:11 Uh, it's, it's, the pl- the, the amount of plasticity ... And this is, is really tremendous, and this is coming from somebody who regrets it, but I did psychedelics recreationally as a kid.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:05:22 Me too.

Andrew Huberman 1:05:22 Um, and I regret it. I returned to them later in a clinical setting, um, and, and derived, uh, a lot of benefit, I think, from them. Uh, namely high-dose psilocybin and MDMA, but both of those are still very much illegal, uh, you can get into a lot of trouble-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:05:40 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:05:40 ... for taking them and/or certainly for selling them. So, um, that's the cautionary note there. And the clinical trials are really impressive, in my opinion.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:05:49 Impressive, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:05:49 Spectacularly impressive, especially for MDMA and for the treatment of PTSD. But the FDA, this, uh, last year, um, did not approve MDMA, uh, as a treatment for PTSD.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:06:01 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:06:01 I think going forward in the new administration, it's likely that it will get approved-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:06:06 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:06:06 ... but-... who knows? There's-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:06:08 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:06:08 ... uh, who knows? So, anyway, that's a bunch of, um, pseudo-legalese jargon, but it, but it, it's, it's sincere. If I were an 18 or 19-year-old person, or 30-year-old person listening to a conversation about psychedelics and how they can be helpful, I would wanna also know that there are instances where people take them and they don't have the appropriate guidance in and through it-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:06:29 Totally.

Andrew Huberman 1:06:29 ... and out of it, and it leads to serious problems.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:06:32 And that's-

Andrew Huberman 1:06:33 So that is, this is a real, real thing that we're talking about.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:06:35 That's why these ketamine clinics where they just hand them the drugs and-

Andrew Huberman 1:06:40 Yeah. It's terrible.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:06:40 ... the medicine, and just leave them on their own are scary to me. Um, I'm proud to say that IFS has been adopted as one of the primary models for psychedelics now-

Andrew Huberman 1:06:51 Great.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:06:52 ... 'cause it's a really nice fit.

Andrew Huberman 1:06:53 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:06:54 And as I was saying earlier that what I see happening often, not always, is these manager parts go offline, and that releases a lot of self. So, you start to, uh, to just feel those C-word qualities emerging. And that's a big in- uh, invitation to all these exiled parts to come and get attention. And so, as people come out of the ketamine experience, I can work with them for 15 minutes and do something that would take maybe five sessions. Because they can get access to parts that they couldn't get, or it would take a long time to convince their protectors to let us go to.

Andrew Huberman 1:07:36 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:07:37 And we can unburden those exiles, and then bring back their protectors. And so, I love it. I, I... You know, and ketamine's the legal one, so that's why-

Andrew Huberman 1:07:46 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:07:46 ... we do it. And, uh, and the other nice thing, and I don't know as a scientist how much you, you would go with this, but, um, ketamine, again, because it opens the door with these protectors, you can also taste what I call the big self. You taste this what they call non-dual state that can be quite blissful, and uh, some people go, "God." And then as you come back, you have this sense of, "I'm much more than this little body and this little ego," that there is something much bigger. And that's why they're using it with end of life, and why it, it and psilocybin has such a big impact on depression. And because it sort of lifts you out of this little box your protectors have you in, to know that there's something much more. So...

Andrew Huberman 1:08:43 Interesting. I've never tried ketamine. Um, a few years ago, I, I, um, and I've talked about this publicly as well, I s- I, um, started, um, developing a, a pretty deep relationship to, to spirituality and God, and most- mostly through the path of, of non- of giving up control.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:09:02 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:09:02 I mean, there's just... Br- breaking news, folks. You can't (laughs) control everything.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:09:06 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:09:06 You know? And, um, uh, you can control certain things, but, um, most things, no. And, um, the way you describe ketamine is very interesting because it, as a dissociative anesthetic, it works in such a fundamentally different way than, say, MDMA-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:09:24 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:09:24 ... which is, um, an empathogen-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:09:27 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:09:28 ... which makes people feel so much more.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:09:30 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:09:30 I mean, (laughs) I- I sort of half joke that the, the... aside from the, the safety legality stuff, the, the, the concern I have about MDMA is that if one is not in the eye mask-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:09:42 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:09:43 ... if you don't have somebody guiding you through it and taking-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:09:46 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:09:46 ... some notes, you know, if you listen to a piece of jazz or classical music or your favorite rock and roll album, or you're there with your dog or cat or plants, I mean, you can spend the entire four hours bonding with the plant.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:10:00 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:00 You're not gonna run off and get married to a plant. You're not gonna try and fornicate with a plant.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:10:06 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:06 But, um, (laughs) one hopes. Um, but it's a very, um, precious but very labile situation.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:10:16 Totally agree.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:17 Because you're... it's such a strong empathogen that whatever you direct your attention to-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:10:22 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:22 ... internal or external, is going to hypertrophy.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:10:26 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:26 So, just have to be really careful.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:10:29 Totally agree.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:30 Uh, you know, and, and given that the neurotoxicity issues seem worked out in that if it's actually MDMA and isn't other things... By the way, that the big study that showed neurotoxicity of MDMA-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:10:41 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:41 ... in pri- non-human primates-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:10:42 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:42 ... turned out they were injecting methamphetamine.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:10:45 What?

Andrew Huberman 1:10:45 Yeah. That paper was retracted. It was published in Science. We'll provide a link to the paper and the retraction.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:10:50 I had no idea.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:50 That, the retraction was not as publicized.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:10:52 Wow.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:53 Uh, methylenedioxymethamphetamine, MDMA, um, has not been shown to be neurotoxic, provided that's what people are taking.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:11:00 Wow.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:01 Um, and not taking some combination of other things.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:11:04 Wow.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:04 Yeah, it's, it's a real tragedy the way that, um, retractions don't get nearly the kind of popular press coverage that the ini-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:11:12 Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:12 ... that initial studies do-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:11:13 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:14 ... uh, regardless of whether or not the initial study was positive or negative.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:11:17 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:17 Um,

Andrew Huberman 1:11:18 in any case, I do believe there are other routes to, um, calming down the forebrain-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:11:22 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:23 ... uh, in the context of doing this kind of work that-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:11:25 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:25 ... I'd just like your thoughts on.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:11:26 Sure.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:27 Uh, when I first wake up in the morning-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:11:28 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:29 ... I'm in kind of a liminal state.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:11:30 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:31 But, the thing that I don't want to think about comes to my brain. I can't avoid it.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:11:38 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:38 It's like, uh, the, the, uh, protectors are, are not available.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:11:41 Exactly.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:41 They're still asleep.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:11:42 That's right.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:42 So that seems valuable.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:11:43 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:44 I've tried recently to keep my eyes closed. Sometimes I'll get up and use the bathroom, but keep my eyes closed, stay in that still state, and e- explore the contours of that thing.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:11:55 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:55 Um, uh, provided it's done safely and not anywhere near water, um, cyclic hyperventilation breath work-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:12:02 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:12:02 ... done for a few minutes or cycles, you know?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:12:06 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:12:06 You know? (inhales) ... we think can change the brain activity so the forebrain kinda comes off-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:12:13 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:12:14 ... line a bit, so to speak.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:12:15 All these things just-

Andrew Huberman 1:12:16 D- do those-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:12:16 Put- put managers to sleep.

Andrew Huberman 1:12:17 Put managers to sleep.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:12:19 Like when you go to sleep, your managers go to sleep-

Andrew Huberman 1:12:21 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:12:21 ... and then you have these weird dreams, and that's 'cause your exiles have access to your mind now.

Andrew Huberman 1:12:26 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:12:27 And they're giving, they're trying to give you signals about what they want. The other thing I'll say about psychedelics and the breathing too is that as your pro- your managers go to sleep and your exiles start coming in, it can seem really terrifying 'cause these parts are stuck in horrible places often with a lot of terror. And so what's called bad trips is them trying to get attention.

Andrew Huberman 1:12:56 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:12:56 So they'll come in and they'll totally take over, and you'll look like you're having a panic attack. But what we've learned, and you know, this happened a few times last week, is instead of thinking of it as a panic attack or a bad trip, to welcome it. Here's a part that needs a lot of attention. It's taken over entirely, but if I were to say, "Okay, Andrew, I see you're really scared, but how do you feel toward this really scared part that's here now?" And I could get you to say, "Well, I feel sorry for it," then I would have you start to get to know it and work with it and comfort it rather than have a panic attack. You would access calm and those C words, and then it becomes a hugely useful, uh, healing of something that's in you that's in a stuck in a terrified place.

Andrew Huberman 1:13:53 I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function. Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health. This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more. They've also recently added tests for toxins such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFASs or forever chemicals. Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas. For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood. Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification. And I should say by taking a second Function test, that approach worked. Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important. There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test. The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated. In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost. It is very affordable. As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman. Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.

Andrew Huberman 1:15:41 What is so striking to me is that, you know, a- and Martha taught me this practice of, you know, when we think about the things that, um, create shame for ourselves, if we're able to go up and really look at those and-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:15:55 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:15:56 ... own them not from the perspective of, "I'm proud of them," but own them as in us and not of us.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:16:02 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:16:02 And not of us, you know? Um, uh, that it's incredibly freeing.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:16:08 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:16:08 And indeed it is so freeing, right?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:16:10 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:16:10 It's like the, if this, if there were, like, a secret to life, like (laughs) , uh, it would at least include that.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:16:18 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:16:18 Um, because-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:16:20 Let me rip off, rip off of that-

Andrew Huberman 1:16:21 Yeah, please. Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:16:23 ... for a second 'cause just as an example, like I do, uh, I've done workshops where I have people work with their racism. You're speaking of something very shameful. And a lot of people say, "I don't, I'm not a racist. I don't have any racism." But if I really convince them to look inside and check, they'll find there's a little part in there that does spout racist things when they meet somebody of a different c- skin color, or has these white supremacy beliefs, and they're, they're really ashamed of it. So if I were to have you focus on that racist voice in there, we would have to get a lot of the parts that are ashamed of it to step out, and then I would (clears throat) have you get curious about it rather than ashamed of it, and ask it about where it picked up this, these beliefs, and it could tell you. And then I would ask, "Do you like having to carry this racist stuff?" Usually it'll say no. If it's ready to unload it, we can just unload it. So one of the key things to know is these parts are not the burdens they carry. They're all good. The little guy who's got the racist rant is a part that got stuck with his beliefs. But when he releases those beliefs, he transforms into being a good... And the mistake our culture makes, the mistake that, that, uh, most psychotherapies make is to assume that he is that racist rant and to try to exile him, but it's a different way of understanding even very seemingly evil people, that they're dominated by these protectors and they're so afraid of their exiles.... and they relate inside in the same way they relate outside. So, if they hate parts of themselves, they'll hate people who resemble those parts of them. They'll try to dominate those people. Do you follow what I'm saying?

Andrew Huberman 1:18:26 Yeah, and I'd like to really go into this a bit, because we hear all the time that when we're upset about something, it's something in ourselves that we're really upset about.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:18:36 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:18:37 Um...

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:18:39 And for me, that isn't always true, but that's sometimes true.

Andrew Huberman 1:18:42 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:18:42 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:18:43 So, if I'm upset about the intolerance of, um, good ideas from people in opposite groups-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:18:50 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:18:50 ... o- of each other's good ideas, um, this logic would say that I'm really just disapproving of that aspect of myself that is, like, black and white judgmental.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:19:05 Which we already established.

Andrew Huberman 1:19:07 (laughs) Got me.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:19:09 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:19:09 Then again, you're the therapist, so. Um, right. So, is this always true?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:19:16 Not always.

Andrew Huberman 1:19:17 Okay.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:19:17 But a lot of the time. So, if you can come to have compassion for that judgmental part of you and-

Andrew Huberman 1:19:25 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:19:25 ... not be embattled with it, and actually see it as desperately trying to help you be more discerning, and help it unburden and get out of this role that it's in. 'Cause in the role that it's in, it can be destructive.

Andrew Huberman 1:19:37 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:19:38 We're not trying to minimize that or say... you know, when I say all parts are, are- there are no bad parts, there are no bad parts, but they can get into very destructive roles, and they can carry these burdens from the past that can drive them to be harmful. But part of my work is to help th- all that change. And, uh, so if you were to start a new relationship with that judgmental part of you, then you would see past the judgmental parts of other people, and you could see the exiles that drive those protectors, and you would s- you would have compassion for them. It wouldn't mean you wouldn't stop them or stand up to them, but you would do it with compassion rather than from these hateful protectors. Uh...

Andrew Huberman 1:20:30 I think it's important that people hear that, namely that if we get in touch with these parts of ourselves that are protectors, um, that it makes us less vulnerable, not more vulnerable-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:20:45 Totally.

Andrew Huberman 1:20:45 ... both to, quote-unquote, "attack," um, but that also, I guess, put simply, that in understanding of ourselves and compassion for ourselves, one develops understanding and compassion for others. But that doesn't mean that you're, um, opening yourself up for harm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:21:02 That's right.

Andrew Huberman 1:21:03 Qu- And the opposite is actually true.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:21:05 The opposite is actually true, 'cause these protectors will generate often what they fear. So, by being so protective, they'll create protectors in the other that will attack. Whereas, if they could stay in self, self can be very protective with those C-word qualities, very forceful, sometimes fierce.

Andrew Huberman 1:21:29 Th- this idea of, uh... I- I'm definitely following that, that we will sometimes create in others, um, you know, what we, uh, fear, because it allows us to engage in this unhealthy dynamic.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:21:44 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:21:44 It seem, it seems so counterintuitive, right?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:21:46 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:21:46 Uh, maybe we take a kind of classic set of examples that I think are pretty common. Um, a person who's codependent with somebody who's a substance abuse addict.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:21:56 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:21:57 Um, or somebody who's very timid and always wants to pacify-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:22:02 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:22:02 ... and somebody who's very dominant.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:22:04 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:22:04 When I zoom out from the second case, it actually (laughs) kind of makes me chuckle how c- how crazy tha- that is. Because if you think about it, a person who is, uh, very dominant, uh, doesn't need somebody very timid in order to feel dominant, right? They c- they could probably, uh, feel whatever power it is they need to feel with somebody who is less timid and-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:22:26 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:22:26 ... maybe the relationship would be healthier. But that's not how people tend to, um, other-select.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:22:30 Hook up, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:22:31 It's kind of interesting, like-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:22:32 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:22:32 So, it raises a- a- perhaps a bigger question. Why do people select people that are fundamentally, um, bad for them?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:22:41 Okay. So, (laughs) I did a book called You're The One You've Been Waiting For, and in it, I talked about this wh- whole issue. And so, for a lot of people, you get hurt by your parent, and there are parts that want to protect you from your parent, but there are other parts who are desperate, who took on the worthlessness from being rejected by your parent and are desperate for redemption. Do you follow this?

Andrew Huberman 1:23:10 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:23:12 And so, uh, as you leave and you're looking for a partner, that part from a subconscious place can influence your decision to find somebody who resembles that parent in their effort to be redeemed again.

Andrew Huberman 1:23:29 Yeah. Is this anything like the, uh, sort of repetition compulsion-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:23:33 Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Andrew Huberman 1:23:34 ... uh-huh, that we, that we tend to repeat a, a pattern over and over again as an attempt to resolve-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:23:38 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:23:39 ... not just a manifestation of, like, dysfunction?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:23:42 That's a version of what I'm talking about.

Andrew Huberman 1:23:44 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:23:45 And so, you find somebody who does resemble that person, that parent, and unfortunately, they do resemble that parent. (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:23:52 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:23:52 And so, they'll hurt you in the same way.

Andrew Huberman 1:23:54 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:23:55 And then, your protectors go into one of four modes. They'll say, "I've got to change that person back into who they're supposed to be," so they'll try to change the person's behavior. Or, they'll say, "I've got to change myself so they'll be who they're supposed to be."... or they'll say, "Oh, this wasn't the redeemer after all," and they'll go looking for the real redeemer who's still out there.

Andrew Huberman 1:24:22 And it's always inside.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:24:24 And, you know, that's what I try to do is to help them see that that redeemer is inside of them, it's self.

Andrew Huberman 1:24:30 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:24:30 And if s- if they, if we can go to that exile who's got this thing for this parent-like person and help it connect to self and help it unburden, that whole repetition compulsion disappears 'cause now, they can take care of themselves. They, they trust self to do it. They don't need that from some other person like that. And so, when we're working with couples and you always find some version of that in couples, if we can get each of them to become their own good attachment figure and good caretaker inside, that frees up the partner. Because when this exile is leading the relationship, your partner feels a lot of, um, sort of demands or feels a lot like your partner has to take care of that young part of you, and can't, can't fully do it. So, there's always this, this, uh, sense of, oh, a burden. You know what I'm saying?

Andrew Huberman 1:25:32 Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting how romantic relationships are where these patterns get-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:25:38 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:25:38 ... repeated. And at the same time, I, I, numerous examples in my life of, uh, healthy relationships. Is that usually the case because people have done the work before or because they had a minimum of trauma in their upbringing?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:25:52 Both, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:25:53 Yeah. What percentage of, um, kids, adults as well, um, do you think had a minimum of trauma, uh, are just because of the way they're wired and the way the stuff is organized within them that they naturally attach to a g- a good partner and are pretty healthy? Is it like 25%, 30%?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:26:15 Wow.

Andrew Huberman 1:26:15 Does it... No?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:26:16 I really can't say-

Andrew Huberman 1:26:17 That's weird.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:26:17 ... 'cause I, my sample is very skewed. I'm working with psychotherapy patients who always have a lot of trauma.

Andrew Huberman 1:26:24 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:26:25 So, I really can't say. I mean-

Andrew Huberman 1:26:27 Mm-mm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:26:28 ... I, I, I'm very biased.

Andrew Huberman 1:26:30 Well, half of marriages in this country end in divorce. Um, and presumably of the ones that don't, I'm guessing somewhere between a half and a quarter of those, um, people are really unhappy. Sounds so pessimistic, but if you just look at the numbers, and, and I'm an optimist. I already acknowledged that I don't like to think about bad stuff and I-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:26:57 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:26:57 ... you know? (laughs)

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:26:57 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:26:58 So, um, yeah, I'm guessing that a lot of people, um, repeat these patterns. But

Andrew Huberman 1:27:06 it seemed as if maybe 20, 30 years ago because these ideas weren't, um, discussed really.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:27:12 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:27:12 Uh,