How to Become Resilient, Forge Your Identity & Lead Others | Jocko Willink

1. 0:00 – 3:50

   Jocko Willink

   1. AHAndrew Huberman0:00

      (soft rock music plays) Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. Today my guest is Jocko Willink. Jocko Willink is a retired Navy SEAL and author of numerous important books on leadership and team dynamics and the host of the Jocko Podcast. During his 20-year career with the U.S. Navy, Jocko served with SEAL Team 3 as commander of Task Unit Bruiser in Ramadi, Iraq, and elsewhere in the Middle East, as well as deployments in Asia and Europe. After retiring from the Navy, Jocko used his experience and knowledge gleaned from his time in the SEAL Teams as a way to develop tools that anybody can use to develop their leadership skills, both for leading themselves and for leading others. That took the form of several important books, the first of which was published in 2015 and is entitled Extreme Ownership: How U.S. Navy SEALS Lead and Win. He has also authored several books for kids about leadership, personal development, and how to navigate various aspects of life. I've read both Extreme Ownership and The Way of the Warrior Kid, and I found them to be immensely useful in terms of actionable information and understanding of one's self and different kinds of relationships, both in and out of the workplace. Typically, guests on the Huberman Lab Podcast are scientists and/or clinicians. It was some time ago that I was a guest on the Jocko Podcast, and during the course of our conversation on his podcast, we quickly realized that many of the science-based tools that my laboratory has focused on and that I've used over the years and shared on the Huberman Lab Podcast had direct overlap and parallel with many of the tools that Jocko and other members of the SEAL Teams had arrived at independently, that is without knowledge of the underlying science. And in fact, he had many more tools that he had incorporated during his years in the SEAL Teams, as well as in business leadership, in family, and elsewhere in life, that I quickly realized it would be an enormously valuable conversation to have him on this podcast in order to share those tools with the general public. During today's episode, we discuss numerous tools that Jocko has taught and used over the years in a number of different contexts, including tools for generating more physical energy, and for generating more focus and cognitive energy, and for navigating sticking points, that is how to deal with lack of motivation, how to deal with difficult relationships in the workplace and elsewhere, and perhaps most importantly, how to think about and navigate the self. In fact, we spend quite a bit of time talking about this notion of the self and one's self-identity and how self-identity plays into our ability to engage in actions of specific types consistently over time, where it can hold us back, how to gain better perspective, and how to help others gain better perspective so that we can work better with them and them with us. We also go deep into the likely scientific mechanisms underlying why the tools that Jocko teaches and uses are so effective. In fact, one thing that you'll immediately notice is that Jocko was writing things down and I was writing things down throughout the conversation, and that just reflects the fact that he's not just an immensely powerful teacher, he's also a practitioner and an avid learner. He's always seeking knowledge. So we kick back and forth our ideas about what likely does and does not underlie different tools and techniques, focusing, of course, mostly on what works in the practical sense in the world. What I can assure you is that by the end of today's episode, thanks to Jocko's immense generosity and curiosity, you will come away with a large number of tools and much richer understanding of how to navigate and enhance mental health, physical health, and performance in all aspects of life.

2. 3:50 – 8:42

   Maui Nui Venison, Eight Sleep, LMNT, Momentous

   1. AHAndrew Huberman3:50

      Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is Maui Nui. Maui Nui is venison that is by far the most nutrient-dense and delicious red meat commercially available. Maui Nui spent nearly a decade building a USDA-certified wild harvesting system to help balance invasive deer populations on the island of Maui. The solution they built turns the proliferation of an otherwise invasive species into a wide range of nutrient-dense products, from fresh butcher cuts and organ meats to bone broth, jerky, and even pet treats. The quality and nutrient value of Maui Nui meats is extraordinary. For instance, their bone broth has an unmatched 25 grams of protein per 100 calories. As I've talked about with guests and in solo episodes of this podcast, getting adequate protein intake, and in particular high-quality protein intake, is extremely important. Current research suggests that most people should be getting about one gram per pound of body weight of quality protein per day, and Maui Nui meats are of the absolute highest quality in terms of the amino acid profile and other nutrients contained in their venison. If you would like to try Maui Nui venison, go to mauinuivenison.com/huberman to get 20% off your first order. Again, that's mauinuivenison.com/huberman to get 20% off. Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep. Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep-tracking capacity. I've discussed many times before on this podcast about the key importance of temperature in regulating the quality of your sleep. Put simply, in order to fall asleep and stay deeply asleep throughout the night, your body temperature has to drop by about one to three degrees, and waking up, conversely, involves your body temperature increasing by about one to three degrees. Now, people vary in their core body temperature and whether or not they tend to run hot or cold throughout the night, but with Eight Sleep mattresses and mattress covers, you can literally program in the exact temperature that you want to sleep in, and that allows you to fall deeply asleep, go into slow-wave sleep and REM sleep, that is rapid eye movement sleep, in the exact sequence that you need to in order to have the best quality sleep, and it will even track your sleep for you. I've been sleeping with an Eight Sleep mattress cover on my mattress for about eight months now, and it is incredible. My sleep was already pretty good, and now it is fantastic, and I feel so much more alert and focused. My mood is far better throughout the day. I thought I was optimized, and with Eight Sleep, now I realize I had a lot more room to improve my sleep and my daytime wakefulness. If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, you can go to eightsleep.com/huberman and check out their Pod Pro Cover and save $150 at checkout. Eight Sleep currently ships in the USA, Canada, UK, and selected countries in the EU and Australia. Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save $150 at checkout. Today's episode is also brought to us by LMNT. LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't. That means the exact ratios of electrolytes are in LMNT, and those are sodium, magnesium, and potassium.... but it has no sugar. I've talked many times before on this podcast about the key role of hydration and electrolytes for nerve cell function, neuron function, as well as the function of all the cells and all the tissues and organ systems of the body. If we have sodium, magnesium, and potassium present in the proper ratios, all of those cells function properly, and all our bodily systems can be optimized. If the electrolytes are not present and if hydration is low, we simply can't think as well as we would otherwise, our mood is off, hormone systems go off, our ability to get into physical action, to engage in endurance and strength and all sorts of other things is diminished. So with LMNT, you can make sure that you're staying on top of your hydration and that you're getting the proper ratios of electrolytes. If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to DrinkLMNT. That's L-M-N-T.com/huberman, and you'll get a free LMNT sample pack with your purchase. And right now, LMNT has two special flavors for the holidays, chocolate caramel and mint chocolate. By the way, both of those taste extremely good cold, and even better, I find, heated up. Uh, believe it or not, you can have them as kind of a tea. They're delicious, and all of their flavors are delicious. For the ones that you drink typically cold, I like the raspberry flavor, the watermelon flavor, and frankly, I like the citrus flavor as well. They're all delicious. So again, if you wanna try LMNT, you can go to LMNT, L-M-N-T.com/huberman. The Huberman Lab Podcast is now partnered with Momentous Supplements. To find the supplements we discuss on the Huberman Lab Podcast, you can go to Live Momentous, spelled O-U-S, livemomentous.com/huberman. And I should just mention that the library of those supplements is constantly expanding. Again, that's livemomentous.com/huberman. And now for my discussion with Jocko Willink.

3. 8:42 – 19:11

   Sense of Self, Discovery & Autonomy

   1. AHAndrew Huberman8:42

      Jocko Willink, welcome.

   2. JWJocko Willink8:44

      Thanks for having me, man.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman8:45

      I'm super excited and super happy to have you here.

   4. JWJocko Willink8:48

      I'm glad to be here. I know that you and I did five and a half hours on my podcast, so, uh, schedule is clear. Let's go. (laughs)

   5. AHAndrew Huberman8:58

      Let's go. And actually, and people will see the Jocko Go drinks, uh, this is not some sort of promotional by me, but these are the, the energy drinks I drink, so this could be, uh, called the Bring Your Own Go podcast.

   6. JWJocko Willink9:10

      (laughs)

   7. AHAndrew Huberman9:10

      Um, it is the energy drink I drink. And no, I'm not told to promote that or paid to promote that.

   8. JWJocko Willink9:15

      (laughs)

   9. AHAndrew Huberman9:15

      It's just the one that I drink. So there you go. Um, no pun intended. Uh, I was just saying to our producer a moment ago that rarely do I sit down and do a podcast with somebody that's skilled in podcasting. Lex Fridman would be the only person that I've had on this podcast, I believe, who's also a podcaster. Since you're a podcaster and many other things, I confess I'm a, a little bit intimidated.

   10. JWJocko Willink9:36

       Well, it's a weird thing to actually call a skill, because it's something that I just kind of started doing. It's something that you just kind of started doing. It's something that Lex just kind of started doing, and I- I- I never practiced it. I didn't sit down before my first podcast and think about how I should deliver things. I just kind of did it. So I- I- I, maybe it's just luck more than skill.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman10:02

       Well, you and I actually go back further than that conversation that we had on your podcast. I think it might have been 2014, 2015, and you were on the Tim Ferriss podcast. And at the time, I was living with my girlfriend. We had moved from San Diego to the Bay Area. We were living in this little tiny apartment in a basement in Oakland, trying to save up to (laughs) buy a place or rent a place that was decent to live in, and we both knew a lot of team guys. She knew more team guys than I did in San Diego. I dated a few, just to be direct. Um, great woman. Those guys were cool to me, uh, mostly. And, um, I remember when I saw the photo on the top card for Tim's podcast, it was, it was your face. And I said, "Do you know this guy from San Diego?" And she goes, "Nope. But if you had to draw a Navy SEAL, that's what you'd draw." (laughs)

   12. JWJocko Willink10:50

       (laughs)

   13. AHAndrew Huberman10:50

       So I think for a lot of people, you embody their notion of a number of different things, some of which you talk about, but some of which, when you open up a bit and really get specific about work in the military and work in daily life and what it is to be you, but really what it is to be a human being, some important contradictions also emerge, right? Obviously, discipline is a theme that people associate with you, right? In my view, and I think in the view of a lot of people, you embody discipline. So today, I definitely want to talk about routines, but also mindsets, but also things that you do and ways that you approach things that might, um, not contradict, but not be so obvious to people, might, um, be a little bit counterintuitive. And in addition to that, you have a lot of different aspects to your life. In addition to running businesses, you're a family man, you have children and married a long time, and so you have a lot of knowledge from different domains of life. So with your permission, I'd like to dive into all of them over the next 26 hours.

   14. JWJocko Willink11:48

       Let's dive. (laughs)

   15. AHAndrew Huberman11:49

       Great. I'm fascinated by this idea of sense of self. I feel like all of us can look back to a time early in life when we first had some experience, um, could be, uh, in art class, could be fishing, could be sport, doesn't really matter, um, what the exact experience was, but where we first realized that there are really cool things in the world. Like, something kind of turned us on at the level of excitement or maybe scared us or something like that. Do you have any recollection of such an event? Maybe not the first one, but do you ever remember hearing or seeing something as a young kid, and maybe you could tell us how young, and just thinking, like, "Yeah, more of that, please"?

   16. JWJocko Willink12:31

       (laughs) Uh, a lot of times, when people ask questions along the- this line of, like, "When was there a moment," right? "When was there a moment that you realized discipline," or, "When was there a moment you realized leadership," or, "When was there a moment you realized detachment?" kind of like the question here, when, when was there a moment you realized, for lack of a better way of saying it, "I'm a person," right? I'm a-

   17. AHAndrew Huberman12:53

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JWJocko Willink12:53

       I'm a, I'm a person with my own thoughts, and I can make things happen. And for me, all those answers are usually fairly gradual, you know? There's, like, a little thing that indicates, and you get a clue, and then you move a little bit further down that road, then you get another clue, and then you move a little bit further down that road, and you get another clue.... uh, so that's what I would say for me life was like, you know, when you're a, when I was a little kid, I was kind of slowly discovering that I was a person, I was a human. (laughs) I remember, uh, my mom took me shopping. I wa- I was probably about 10 years old and I needed to get pants for school. And my mom took me shopping, and when I went to, into the store, there was a girl that was, I don't know what they're called in a store, a retail sales girl?

   19. AHAndrew Huberman13:51

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JWJocko Willink13:52

       She was probably about 16, and I started chatting her up, right? And, and I kind of recognized it a little bit, but I sort of didn't too, and I just was chatting to this girl and I was making her laugh, and I was having a good time with the whole thing, and you know, putting on the pants and spinning around like, d- and she was laughing. And I remember when we left the store with the pants, and my mom was sort of talking to me about the fact that, "What, what were you trying to do to that girl?" And I was, I was thinking to myself, "Well, I kind of liked that girl. She was pretty." And I don't know why that popped into my head, but I just remember thinking-

   21. AHAndrew Huberman14:30

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JWJocko Willink14:30

       ... hey man, there's a whole world out there, and uh, let's go make it happen. (laughs)

   23. AHAndrew Huberman14:34

       Yeah, it's a great story 'cause it, I think it really speaks to this, um, thing that you mentioned, which is that when we first start to realize we have a sense of self, it has something to do with cause and effect on the world. Like, we can have an impact in some way on, on things outside of us, outside of our home. You know, I've, lately I've been reading a lot of psychology, and I've been listening to some of your content, and I, I definitely want to talk to you about, uh, a study that you covered, uh, related to these. Um, it's a brutal experiment with these kids that either had stutter or didn't have stutter. Uh, I wanna get into that a little bit later, but, you know, what we do and how we treat people and how, uh, we receive feedback and give feedback has a big impact, but I, I think some of that happens just in our own relationship to things in the world. The, the old Hungarian psychologists, I'm learning, had this idea of two kinds of people. They literally thought there were two kinds of people. There are generators and projectors, and generators are people that are just from a very young age, they realize they can impact other people positively, negatively, and they, they want to create things in the world. They want to generate stuff, and they go, "Wow, I can actually, like, build stuff and break stuff and blow stuff up maybe, but also, you know, help things." And, and then there are these projectors that like to just kind of reflect on what they see, and they made the really important point, I think, that it's not that generators are good and projectors are bad. The world needs both, that they really work in a kind of symbiotic way. But your story captures the essence of what it is to be a generator, which is that by doing certain things, you can have an impact and it feeds back to you, and it's likely that they receive something from it as well.

   24. JWJocko Willink16:12

       Yeah, and w- where this all came to fruition as I, as I now piece together as you're talking through this stuff, look, when I joined the military, you join the military and you get a blank slate. So no one cares where you came from, no one cares what you did. You were the captain of the s- football team, captain of the soccer team, no one cares. No one cares what your grades were, no one cares what you got on the SATs or the... No one cares about anything. You're a blank slate. And then with that blank slate, it is, hey, if you do this thing, if you perform this task and you perform it well, you will get recognition, you will get... You will hopefully get more control over your own destiny, which is the ultimate in compensation for, for human beings. To have more control over your own destiny is the ultimate compensation. You know, you and I were talking before we hit record, like, you can have all the money in the world, but if you don't control what you're doing every day, or at least you don't control most of what you're doing, then it's, then it's not worth it. The reason people try and make money is so they can have more autonomy in their life. And so in the military, it becomes very clear, and it became very clear to me very quickly that if I performed well, I actually got a lot more freedom with what I did. Even in boot camp, you know, if you pass an inspection in boot camp, you don't have to redo your locker or you don't have to make your bed again because you did it right the first time, and so you have an extra 15 minutes. And, and so for me, really, that's when I started to realize, oh, what I'm doing right now is gonna impact not only what's going to happen to me in the next hour, but in the next two years, three years, five years. And I think that's the biggest miss that we have when we're growing up and, and I know you had your challenges and tribulations as you were growing up because you didn't realize, "Oh, what I'm doing right now is gonna affect where I'm gonna be in the future." And it didn't happen until you were out of high school and you went to junior college and you're like, "Oh, wait a second, I can actually put my life together in a positive way." When you're 14, you, you're thinking, "Hey, what am I gonna do tomorrow?" That's basically future operations are-

   25. AHAndrew Huberman18:19

       What, what am I gonna have for meal at 14?

   26. JWJocko Willink18:21

       ... what am I gonna do tomorrow?

   27. AHAndrew Huberman18:21

       I was like, "Where's, where am I gonna get the Slurpee? Which curbs am I gonna hit skateboarding, and where are we gonna play video games tonight or what girls are we gonna hang out with?" That was kind of the mindset at 14.

   28. JWJocko Willink18:30

       Yeah, and then at some point you, you learned and so did I, oh, the way, the, the, the actions that I take now are either gonna positively impact my future or they're gonna negatively impact my future. And the, the, the more I focused on doing things that are gonna positively impact my future, the better my life became. And I think that's a very huge lesson to learn that I know I didn't figure out for quite some time. (laughs)

   29. AHAndrew Huberman18:55

       Yeah, the ide- uh, investments and withdrawals, or understanding that early in life in terms of health behaviors and intellectual behaviors, and, and your point about the military is a really interesting one. I never thought about the military that way, that there's this blank slate when you get in there. Uh,

4. 19:11 – 25:02

   Mindsets in the Military: Garrison vs. Combat

   1. AHAndrew Huberman19:11

      and...Before we started, we were talking a little bit about the kinds of mindsets and people that the military attracts, and, um, I'd love for you to elaborate on that again. You mentioned, um, something interesting, this, this notion of garrison.

   2. JWJocko Willink19:23

      Right.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman19:24

      Kind of a f- interesting word in its own right. Um, what kind of people do you think the military attracts? And then within the military, do you start to see some kind of predictable bifurcations, where certain people go down one track and other people go down another? I have a few friends from the SEAL teams, as, as we both know, and I've heard sometimes about the distinction between officers and enlisted guys, this kind of thing. But maybe this, uh, th- the question I'm asking is more, uh, across the board for all of military, and for, uh, really for people listening, whether or not they are interested in military or not, for their own, for their own life. I think there's an interesting lesson in this idea of who, who p- is attracted to the military. Is it, like, people who want to instill order on themselves, or is it people who want to instill order on other people, or both?

   4. JWJocko Willink20:08

      Yeah. There's a, there's a, a really good book, and I did, I ended up doing about four podcasts on this book, which is called The Psychology of Military Incompetence. And when I first saw that title-

   5. AHAndrew Huberman20:18

      What an amazing title.

   6. JWJocko Willink20:20

      I, I know. And when I first saw that title, I thought to myself, "Oh, you know, this is some, some academic that's gonna look at the military and bash it." And, but I did a little research, and it turned out that the guy that had written the book, and I can't think of his name right now, he was a guy that had served in World War II, was wounded. I mean, this guy had, this guy understood what he was talking about. And it's really an obvious concept, once you think about it, and his bas- the basic premise is this. The military, when you look at it from the outside, it's this orderly place. It's a place where everything has a place. It's a f- a place where if you have a certain rank on your shoulder, you will command respect and people have to listen to you. That's what it looks like. So it's an attractive place for people that have an authoritarian mindset, for people that wanna just, "Hey, don't, don't, don't question what I'm saying, just shut up and do what I tell you to do." There's people that love that. There's people that wanna live like that. You've worked for them. I've worked for them. We've, we've experienced th- those type of people throughout our lives, that authoritarian mindset that just want to bark orders and have people listen to them. And so when they, when those people are f- 14 years old or 16 years old or 18 years old, and they look at the military, and they see a uniform, and they see people saluting, and they see orders being carried out, and they think, "That's where I'm gonna go, and I can get the respect that I deserve."

   7. AHAndrew Huberman21:46

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JWJocko Willink21:46

      And the military certainly attracts people like that. And those people that have that highly disciplined and orderly mindset can do well inside the military, especially in garrison, and I had to, w- again, we were talking about this earlier, the word garrison. I don't think there's a civilian equivalent to this word, but it basically means the non-combat situation. So when you're out on the parade field, when you're, when you're going through schooling, where there's no combat involved, when you're marching, like, those kind of things, w- we call that garrison. It's in the rear, it's not in combat. And the people with an authoritarian mindset actually do pretty well in garrison situations. Why? Because things are orderly, and you can predict what's going to happen, and you do get a certain issue of gear, and that gear is gonna be delivered on time, and you're gonna shoot this number of rounds down at the range, and everything is going to go according to plan. That's what garrison is. And so those people join the military, they're attracted to that, and they end up doing well in peacetime. Now, unfortunately for them, combat is a lot different. Nothing goes the way it's supposed to go. The bullets don't get delivered on time. (laughs)

   9. AHAndrew Huberman23:04

      (laughs)

   10. JWJocko Willink23:04

       The enemy has a vote on the way things are going to unfold. And you end up in combat in being in very chaotic situations. So the type of person that thrives in combat has a more open mind, has a more flexible mind, is paying more attention to the input that they're receiving. As opposed to someone with an authoritarian mindset, they don't listen to anybody else. They make up their own mind. They bark orders. With someone that has a more open mindset, they're listening, they're, they're taking input, they're evolving their plan. And those type of people excel in a combat situation. Now, unfortunately, and this is sort of the stereotype too, you take that, that dog of war, and you put him back into a garrison environment, he doesn't do well, right? He's not showing up on time for the inspection. He doesn't have his, he doesn't get, didn't get his hair cut. He doesn't have his weapon cleaned the way it's supposed to be cleaned, 'cause he's got his weapon ready for combat, not ready for inspection. And, and so you get this, there, there are these two different types of people. And of course, with those two different types of people, there's degrees going in one direction or the other. But what you hope for is someone that can play the game on the garrison side, and yet when it comes time to go into combat, they can also open their mind, be flexible, be creative. I mean, that's what you really want, is you want someone that is very good at solving problems. And to do that, you need to have a creative open mind to figure out how we're gonna deal with something. So I think that's a stereotype. The stereotype is that everyone in the military is sort of robotic and f- falling into the hierarchy, and we bark orders, and people follow orders, and that's just not true. There is an element of truth to it, but it's not the whole truth. And certainly, if you look at, at history, the people that are, that excel in combat are the people that maybe have a little bit of a rebellious streak, people that have a li- a, th- that are just more creative and more open minded.

5. 25:02 – 29:34

   Military Divisions

   1. JWJocko Willink25:02

   2. AHAndrew Huberman25:02

      Some of my friends from the SEAL teams, um, will sometimes throw out stereotypes about the different divisions in the military. Is there any truth to this idea that, you know, Air Force types are one way and M- Marines are one way and-... uh, Navy is one way, army is a- a certain way. Like, sort of a- a general contour of personality? Or is that just kind of inside ball joking around?

   3. JWJocko Willink25:22

      I- i- it's a little bit of both. I mean, certainly the Marine Corps is steeped in tradition and you- you're, if you, if you make a guess at what a Marine w- when, if you meet or if you had to- had to guess what a Marine is going to be like, you- you're probably going to be pretty close. Uh, I mean, Marines have a incredible program to indoctrinate their people into the culture of the Marine Corps, and the Marine Corps has an incredibly strong culture. It's a powerful culture. I love the Marine Corps. I've worked with the Marine Corps a ton and they're outstanding. As a generality, certainly you could make those assumptions about the Marines in general. The, now, does that mean every Marine is the same? No, absolutely not. Same thing with the Army, same thing with the Air Force, same thing with the Navy. You've got these kind of stereotypes that exist for a reason. And, you know, it's interesting too, it's, uh, one of my friends called Ben Milligan wrote a, wrote an incredible book called By Water Beneath the Walls, which I've given him a huge hassle about because it's the worst title of all time. But it's- it's certainly the best book written about the SEAL team's history and where the SEAL teams came from. And- and it's interesting, it's something that I had heard from a SEAL officer that had given a speech years ago at his change of command, and what he said was, "Hey, listen." He- he was trying to emphasize why the SEAL teams were good, and one of the things he said was, "You know, in the- in the Army..." and he was talking historically. He goes, "Hey, in the Army, if you start to lose a battle, you can just retreat and run away. In the Navy, traditionally, we're fighting on board a ship, and if that ship, if, we can't run away. We're fighting and if we lose, we die. So SEALs can't quit." It was sort of this, uh, you know, little over the top expression, but when you take that a little bit further, when you look at the history of the Navy if you're, you know, if we were in the Navy 150 years ago, you would have to go on deployment. You would take your ship and you would sail somewhere and you wouldn't be able to talk to me anymore. So you would have to understand what it is you were trying to accomplish and then just go out there and make it happen. That's decentralized command, and that's something that exists in the SEAL teams without question; very decentralized command. And that's one of the s- one of the absolute strengths of the SEAL teams is you've got leaders at every level inside the organization that if they don't know exactly, if they're not told what to do, they're gonna go, "Okay, I don't, haven't been told what to do but I'm gonna go figure it out." And that's one of the strengths of the SEAL teams. We don't, we also, we have more doctrine now but when I came in the SEAL teams there was no doctrine. Th- th- it was all word of mouth. And so the- the Army and the Marine Corps, if you have to conduct an ambush, you can pull out a manual and you can look up how to conduct an ambush, platoon ambush, how to conduct it, and it's all written very clear and they're great documents. That's the FM7-8, Infantry Platoon and Squad, I think is the- is the Army doctrine.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman28:16

      I can see the little neurons in your hippocampus firing in sequence.

   5. JWJocko Willink28:18

      Yeah.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman28:18

      It's embedded in there forever.

   7. JWJocko Willink28:20

      And it's a great manual, and you can pull that thing out and you have a place to start from. In the SEAL teams, we didn't have that at all. So you would hear from your platoon chief, "This is how you conduct an a- ambush." And he had heard it from his platoon chief, who heard it from his platoon chief, who heard it from his platoon chief, and that platoon chief was in Vietnam. So it's getting passed down, but you can make adjustments to it and you- you can- you can alter the plan a little bit because, hey, the terrain is different or hey, the- the- the night vision we now have. So there's changes that we can make because there's no doctrine. So not having any doctrine in many ways is a strength. Also it can be a weakness, because if you've got a new platoon commander that's never done a- a- an ambush before and he has no idea what he's doing, and his platoon chief has been out of the loop for a long time and he doesn't know what he's doing, there's no way, there's no reference. So there's strengths and weaknesses just like any characteristic, right? Everybody's characteristic, you've got strength and you've got weaknesses, and your weaknesses can be strength and your strength can be weaknesses. Uh, to get back to your original question: are there stereotypes inside of each of the military branches? Sure. But are there outliers in each of the military branches? There are absolutely, and that's why you can't judge a book by its cover.

6. 29:34 – 35:39

   Daily Workouts & Discipline

   1. JWJocko Willink29:34

   2. AHAndrew Huberman29:34

      For people listening to this who are not in the military, maybe have some military lineage in their family or not, but who want to understand a little bit better about how structure and lack of structure can both support being effective in- in life, in relationships, in daily life, in fitness, in business, in school, I think those are the big domains, in creative endeavors, I think it would be useful for them to understand a little bit about how you in particular balance discipline and structure with, dare I say, lack of discipline and structure? Um-

   3. JWJocko Willink30:10

      Well, you could actually just say the word freedom, right? 'Cause- 'cause that's what it turns into.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman30:14

      Yeah, or maybe even play. Uh, you know, I bring this up in part because I've seen some posts that you put up of you, you know, playing the guitar with friends, or music. One of them was a tribute to someone who, uh, either was killed in combat or had passed away. So, you know, w- these moments of connection between people sometimes are working together but sometimes are in relaxation and play and these kinds of things, and I think it was a really important post for people to see that, wow, Jocko Willink kicks back with a guitar, not trying to take over stages. Maybe you are, maybe you have a plan. If anyone could do it, you'd probably be the one. But what is the balance for you in terms of structure and lack of structure? And I'm not gonna ask for your daily routine. We know that you get up early, you train. But I do have some specific questions that I think would be helpful in putting some meat on the- the kind of, uh, the notions about you. And again, this isn't to pick into your life but more to- to grab... Well, it's to pick into your life. The, uh... (laughs)

   5. JWJocko Willink31:05

      (laughs)

   6. AHAndrew Huberman31:05

      So a question I asked you in the lobby, 'cause it's one that, you know, having seen your content for a long time and really benefited from it, I was curious. Y- you get up early at about 4:30, you train every morning.... how long do you train for, and is there any global structure to that? And of course everyone needs different programs, but it- do you- is it like weight training one day, cardio training the next day? Are you combining them? Is it always an hour? Is it always half an hour? I think people would benefit from getting a little bit more understanding of what that looks like for you, with the caveat that everyone has different needs, levels of, you know, background et cetera. But I'm intensely curious about this, and I'm certain I'm not the only one.

   7. JWJocko Willink31:41

      So do you want to talk about weight lifting or rock and roll on the guitar? (laughs)

   8. AHAndrew Huberman31:45

      Uh, I want to talk about, um, let's y- your- let's talk about the most structured first part of your day, and then let's talk about the least structured part of your day, at least the part that you can share with the- with the world.

   9. JWJocko Willink31:55

      Yeah. Uh, uh, waking up early, and I'm going to work out, and depending on what's going on that day, if I have an early flight, I might work out for s- eight minutes, right? I might go in and- and do 2,000 meters on the rower, get- get a sweat going hard as I can, and then I'm done, and because I got to go catch a flight. So that could be happening. Maybe I'm supposed to go surfing in the morning. I wake up, the waves are terrible, and so now I've got nothing to do. I've- I'd planned out, you know, to be surfing for two or three hours, And now I'm not going to go surfing. So I'm going to go- I'm going to go lift, and I'm going to go play in the gym and do a bunch of stuff, and I'm gonna spend two or three hours in there. I- I love doing that. So the workout could be anywhere between, what did I just say, eight minutes and three hours, (laughs) and-

   10. AHAndrew Huberman32:40

       Yeah.

   11. JWJocko Willink32:40

       ... it could be anything in between. I- I fully enjoy the- the physical aspect of working out. So if I have more time to spend in the gym, I'll spend it. I remember my dad saying at one point, "If I retired, I wouldn't know what to do." And I- I- I was thinking to myself, "Are you serious right now?" You know, if I didn't have anything to do, I'd spend six hours a day in the gym. I'd spend-

   12. AHAndrew Huberman33:04

       Yeah.

   13. JWJocko Willink33:04

       ... four hours doing jujitsu. Like, I could fill my day, I could fill every day with just physical activity-

   14. AHAndrew Huberman33:09

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JWJocko Willink33:10

       ... things that I just like doing. Uh, but that's... So wake up early, get a sweat going, and do I lift? Yes. Do I do cardio? Yes. Do I run? Yes. Do I sprint? Yes. Do I lift heavy weights? Yes. Do I swing kettlebells? Yes. I- I- I'll, I do everything, and- and anything, and I enjoy all of it, and I'm not really good at any of it. You know, I'm not, I'm not really good at any one aspect of physical activity. I- I- I'm... there's people that are infinitely better at me in every aspect of... And I'm not just talking about, "Oh, this guy's a world class lift." No, I'm, I'm... There's like a guy named Fred down at the gym that can deadlift more than me. There's a guy... When I was at SEAL Team 2, there was a guy who was probably 5'7", and he looked kind of chubby, and he was older than me, and he could run faster than me, and he could bench more than me.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman34:02

       Those guys are out there.

   17. JWJocko Willink34:03

       It was just-

   18. AHAndrew Huberman34:03

       Yeah.

   19. JWJocko Willink34:03

       ... so bothersome. (laughs)

   20. AHAndrew Huberman34:05

       Yeah, they're out there. They- th- th- they've got some engine in there related to something.

   21. JWJocko Willink34:09

       Yeah.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman34:09

       I mean, I do think there are genetic differences in terms of people's resilience and workout, but even just grip strength is highly, um, highly subject to, like, genetic influences, maximum grip strength.

   23. JWJocko Willink34:19

       Mm-hmm.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman34:19

       But of course, there's a huge range in what people can develop. But I guarantee your grip strength is- is greater than mine. Um, people ask me this all the time, "Who would win in arm wrestling between you and Jocko?" I'm like, "Jocko." (laughs)

   25. JWJocko Willink34:31

       (laughs)

   26. AHAndrew Huberman34:31

       Who wouldn't jiu-jit- Jocko?

   27. JWJocko Willink34:32

       You know, there's a lot of technique in arm wrestling.

   28. AHAndrew Huberman34:34

       Uh, I have to imagine they're putting their body behind it. They're putting-

   29. JWJocko Willink34:37

       Yeah, yeah, it- it's not just that.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman34:38

       ... their- their back in-
7. 35:39 – 36:53

   AG1 (Athletic Greens)

   1. AHAndrew Huberman35:39

      I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Athletic Greens. Athletic Greens, now called AG1, is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that covers all of your foundational nutritional needs. I've been taking Athletic Greens since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast. The reason I started taking Athletic Greens and the reason I still take Athletic Greens once or usually twice a day is that it gets me the probiotics that I need for gut health. Our gut is very important. It's populated by, uh, gut microbiota that communicate with the brain, the immune system, and basically all the biological systems of our body to strongly impact our immediate and long-term health. And those probiotics in Athletic Greens are optimal and vital for microbiotic health. In addition, Athletic Greens contains a number of adaptogens, vitamins, and minerals that make sure that all of my foundational nutritional needs are met, and it tastes great. If you'd like to try Athletic Greens, you can go to athleticgreens.com/huberman, and they'll give you five free travel packs that make it really easy to mix up Athletic Greens while you're on the road, in the car, on the plane, et cetera, and they'll give you a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2. Again, that's athleticgreens.com/huberman to get the five free travel packs and the year's supply of vitamin D3

8. 36:53 – 52:10

   Energy & Movement, Cortisol, Nutrition

   1. AHAndrew Huberman36:53

      K2. So you get- you get the training, and do you track your training in- in a detailed way? Are you keeping track of lifts and-

   2. JWJocko Willink36:59

      I- so I write down what I do.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman37:00

      Mm-hmm.

   4. JWJocko Willink37:01

      And I'll write down- I- I write down what I do every day, and that way I can go back and say, "You know, what was I doing back then?" Because I might go through some phase where I'm trying to do more pull-ups, or I'm trying to deadlift more, and I'm trying... Or whate- whatever the- whatever the thing is, I'll go back and- It's 'cause I got bored of deadlifting after a while. I mean, let's face it, if you just want to be a good deadlifter-... you're not going to be that fast, right? You're, you're going to be slow on long runs. So you don't want to go too deep into deadlifting, and you don't, also don't want to be so good at long runs that you can't deadlift, you know, g- a good amount of weight. So I kind of go through phases, and I'll get into something for a while, and then I'll get into something else. So I do log down what I'm doing so that way I can look back and say, "Oh, dang," you know, "I, I'm, I'm not even close to as strong as I used to be, need to get back to that."

   5. AHAndrew Huberman37:46

      I'm fascinated by the concept of energy. I think it's one of the most interesting aspects in all of biology, all of psychology, and all of life. And w- when I say energy, I mean, um, (clicks tongue) the distinction between being back on your heels, flat-footed, or forward center of mass, you know? And I get the impression, and I think everyone gets the impression that you're somebody with a lot of energy. And I wonder whether or not you wake up with a lot of energy, and you feel like you have to burn it off with this physical activity and, and work and other demands in your life. Or do you find that you wake up and your energy is kind of neutral, and exercise and physical activity gives you energy? 'Cause I think this is one of the key things out there, I think, that acts as a barrier for people doing more with their body because they, maybe they don't want to tire themselves out, or maybe they don't feel like they have enough energy to begin with. It's also feeds into this idea that, oh, you know, some people just have a lot of energy, they're really physical, and other people aren't. So on, let's just say, on most days do you wake up feeling like you want to burn off energy, build energy? What does exercise mean to you? And then maybe we can talk about some of the underlying stuff going on there, 'cause I think we both might find it interesting.

   6. JWJocko Willink38:57

      I, I would say it's both, right? There's no way I can sit here and say, "Oh, yeah, every day that alarm clock goes off and I'm like, 'Oh, yeah, let's rock and roll.'" N- certainly that's not the case. It's also certainly not the case that every day I'm like, "Oh, god, not again." No. Uh, I'd say most of the time the alarm clock goes off and I, I, I don't think a bunch. Like, when my alarm clock goes off, I, I don't, I, I don't think a bunch.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman39:19

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JWJocko Willink39:19

      I don't debate with myself. I'm not negotiating. I, I just, the thing goes off and I'm doing what I'm supposed to do, sort of robotic. Now, I, this, this much I can say, when you go and work out you're going to feel better. You will get energy from working out. You, that is, that is a guarantee. If you go work out you're going to feel better. If you go break a sweat you're going to feel better. This, you're going to get more energy from it. And look, you got to go really, really hard to where now you feel more tired when you're done. And even that, I mean, you got to go psycho. I'll do that occasionally, but I don't do that on a daily basis. You know, at the end of a day if I wake up, lift, run, surf, and then I do jujitsu in the afternoon, like, at the end of that day I'm tired and I feel tired. Uh, but normal day, working out just makes you feel better. G- definitely gives you en- definitely gives me energy, I should say, 'cause I guess I'm not everybody.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman40:17

      Yeah. I th- it's, I think it's a very important point, because one of the things that we are learning from circadian biology, you know, time of day effects and sunlight and all that stuff that we talk about on our podcast, and that you've done intuitively, right? This is what we kind of arrived to-

   10. JWJocko Willink40:29

       Yeah, it was kind of crazy.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman40:30

       ... uh, last time we had a conversation, is that so many of the things that science is telling us to do, and that we emphasize on the podcast, this podcast you've been doing, or are built into military schedules. And one of them is this notion of waking up early and getting physical early in the day. And I suppose if we were to just throw one blanket rule on the table to encompass the broadest number of themes, it's that once every 24 hours we each and all get a big increase in this release of the hormone cortisol, which everyone says, "Oh, cortisol, it's terrible. You know, it's going to burn you out, adrenal burnout." All that stuff. But it's a non-negotiable peak, and you want it to arrive early in the day. And viewing sunlight, physical activity, caffeine, and in particular intense exercise all amplify that cortisol peak. In fact, I think it, the numbers I'm seeing is just sunlight viewing gives you a 50% increase in that cortisol. Exercise on top of that, another 50 to 75% increase. So this huge release in this hormone that everyone thinks is terrible, but actually sets this huge wave in motion for the rest of the day, which gives you more energy, higher levels of immune function, more focus, et cetera. And does indeed, as you mentioned in your example of your daily life, sets a timer so that about 14 to 16 hours later you're sleepy, which is what you want 14 to 16 hours later. Unless, of course, you're running vampire shifts in the military or you're on shift work, but most people aren't, of course. So I think the idea that movement and exercise gives us energy, I think is an important idea. And it's something that I was, frankly I was hoping your answer would be that, as opposed to that, you know, you wake up every day and you just want to just attack the world because you have so much energy getting out of bed. Because frankly, I never feel that way.

   12. JWJocko Willink42:13

       (laughs)

   13. AHAndrew Huberman42:13

       But I always feel better after I train. Always.

   14. JWJocko Willink42:16

       Yeah.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman42:16

       And of course, there are times when I crash in the early afternoon if I train really, really hard. But usually that's when I over-caffeinate to an outrageous degree, and then I don't nourish after, or I over-nourish. So this is the other thing, that eating, the whole rest and digesting, the digest word in there is meant to, for, it's there for a reason, which is that when we eat a really big meal, we actually need to slow down. So I hate to get into daily schedules at the level of nitpicking, and nutrition is about the most controversial topic on the internet.

   16. JWJocko Willink42:47

       (laughs)

   17. AHAndrew Huberman42:47

       (laughs) Uh, um, but do you nourish after you train? And if you do, do you do it to the point where you're kind of like, okay, I'm mostly full or I'm full? Are you trying to, like, really nourish yourself? Or do you find that eating slows you down?

   18. JWJocko Willink43:02

       Y- I find that eating slows me down. And I, I would say, f- again, this, it's weird how some of this stuff is. Like, the main reason I got in the habit of waking up early and working out is 'cause if you do it before anyone else is awake then they can't bother you and you can get stuff done, right? You go to the SEAL team and you get there before anyone else is there, no one can say, "Hey, can you help us with this?" Hey, no one sent you any emails. You get, you get that time, you get it done, and, and, and it's yours, right? I remember when you were on my podcast, and I don't wear sunglasses when I run in the morning because I sweat and it fills my sunglasses. It's not because I want to-... let the UV light into my eyes. That's not what I-

   19. AHAndrew Huberman43:38

       Cortisol boost.

   20. JWJocko Willink43:38

       Right.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman43:38

       Yeah.

   22. JWJocko Willink43:38

       It's not for the cortisol. I didn't know that. It's cool that I know it now. But I just did it because I don't like to- d- d- d- sweat in my sunglasses, can't see, so I just run without them and put a hat on. Uh, as far as eating, I don't like to do physically active things with food in my stomach. I, I, that's just the way it is.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman43:57

       Yeah. Me either.

   24. JWJocko Willink43:58

       And so-

   25. AHAndrew Huberman43:59

       Yep.

   26. JWJocko Willink43:59

       ... I don't want to... And what really keeps that in line for me is I'm doing jujitsu in the afternoon, and so if I'm eating a big lunch, by the time the afternoon rolls around, I'm kind of, uh, I got food in my gut, and I just don't like that feeling. So no, I don't eat a big meal until I'm kind of done with the physical stuff for the day, which is usually at night, six, seven o'clock at night. Which I guess there's some bad things about that. I eat too late. (laughs)

   27. AHAndrew Huberman44:22

       Well, the data say, you know, if you're... Yeah, this, we could go down a rabbit hole with this-

   28. JWJocko Willink44:27

       (laughs)

   29. AHAndrew Huberman44:27

       ... and then someone's going to pull up some little clinical study and then another one that counters that. I mean, I think the data essentially say that having a regular meal schedule that allows you to sleep well at night, whatever that means for you, and that allows you to be active and focused when you need to be active and focused, that's the ideal schedule.

   30. JWJocko Willink44:45

       I, when I'm working with clients, so I have a leadership consulting company, Echelon Front. When I'm going to work with a client, I'm not eating. 'Cause I, 'cause they're going to be asking me questions. We're going to be diving into what's happening inside their business. Like, there's a lot of stuff going on. It's a lot of cognitive work. So I'm not eating before that. Podcast? I'm not eating before a podcast. Before I record a podcast, I'm not eating, 'cause I don't want to have a bunch of food in my stomach. I want to... You, you, you get a certain level of mental clarity when you haven't eaten a bunch of food. So going out on missions, I never would eat before I go o- out on a mission. I would eat when I come home. You get home 4:00 in the morning, 3:00 in the morning from doing an operation, cool, then I'll eat. 'Cause then I'm gonna, I'm gonna do a debrief for 15 minutes, clean weapons, and then eat a big meal, go to sleep. Cool. Yeah, I don't want to have food in my stomach when I've got to perform or execute anything.
9. 52:10 – 59:05

   Exercise & Energy, Deliberate Cold Exposure

   1. AHAndrew Huberman52:10

      I will ask this, are there certain forms of exercise like weightlifting versus cardio that you find give you an especially big boost in what we're calling energy? And here this could be cognitive energy, it could be physical energy, but a pr- a readiness for the next thing.

   2. JWJocko Willink52:26

      Yeah. First I gotta back you up on this. I love backing up your, your, your science. So do you ever, do you ever ruck march, like put on a heavyweight and ruck?

   3. AHAndrew Huberman52:35

      Yeah, Pe- uh, yeah, sorry to interrupt. Yeah, Peter Attia got me into this. He got me into doing a long Sunday, instead of a long Sunday run, throwing on a lightweight vest or a ruck and going out for like three hours. And the first 20 minutes I find I always want to go faster and get it over with, but then I've learned that the real pain in it-

   4. JWJocko Willink52:51

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman52:52

      ... sets in around an hour and then the beauty sets in around 90 minutes where you're like, "I could do this all day, all night, and I never want to stop."

   6. JWJocko Willink52:59

      See, that's when you were describing how this chemical, these chemicals get released and once you're in that automatic mode, 'cause i- i- in the SEAL teams, you're doing maritime operations for a month and then you're going to do some kill house shooting, and so you're not carrying a bunch of weight and then you go out to the desert and now you're putting on, uh, 80 pounds and you're going on a, like day one and you get out there, you're going on an 80 pound ruck march, and the first freaking 17 minutes, the first 23 minutes just suck. They just suck. And what was beautiful was by the time I was, you know, 23, 24 years old, I'm like, "Oh yeah, this is gonna suck for 17 minutes and then it's gonna be, I'm gonna be a robot and it doesn't matter anymore and I can just keep going forever." So (laughs) it sounds, sounds like what you're saying is what I experienced my, basically my whole adult life. There's gonna be a little break-in period mentally where, where you think, "This totally sucks," a- and then you just can keep going for a really, really long time and it's not that big of a deal. To your question of is there any form of exercise that gives me that energy boost, I, I would have to say like the, the high intensity sort of anaerobic blast, you know, whether it's on the bike or on the rower or, you know, swinging a kettlebell hard, something like that, that last 10, 15 minutes, that's a really good way to, you know, peak my mentality for the day.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman54:19

      Do you do the cold water thing? I mean, you-

   8. JWJocko Willink54:21

      Yep.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman54:21

      ... certainly did a lot of it in BUD/S. I mean, do you, you force yourself into cold water on a regular basis?

   10. JWJocko Willink54:25

       I have, I have a, I have a cold bath in my house and I get in every day. Yep.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman54:28

       How long are you spending in there?

   12. JWJocko Willink54:29

       Uh, usually around five minutes.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman54:31

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JWJocko Willink54:32

       Five minutes.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman54:32

       Before you train or after you train?

   16. JWJocko Willink54:34

       No, after.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman54:35

       Okay.

   18. JWJocko Willink54:35

       So this is something I haven't played with yet.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman54:36

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JWJocko Willink54:36

       And for me, I'm like, I'm like such a, I, I, I, I don't like to make a bunch of effort for something. F- so for me, going downstairs, getting in the ice tub, and I guess you only need to do it in the, before you work out, you only go a minute, right?

   21. AHAndrew Huberman54:50

       You can do a minute to three. Joe and I have been texting back and forth-

   22. JWJocko Willink54:52

       Yeah.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman54:52

       ... about this. There's a lab at Stanford, Craig Heller's lab that works on cold and performance, and the athletes at Stanford, mainly the, the cross-country team and the football players are doing cold before their training because of the huge increase, huge long-lasting increase in dopamine and adrenaline that's caused by that. They're finding it increases performance mainly by waking people up and getting them focused. It creates energy basically.

   24. JWJocko Willink55:13

       Yeah.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman55:13

       And students, you know, everyone thinks that like, "Oh, athletes are all super motivated." This is no pick against Stanford athletes in particular. A lot of athletes are excellent at what they do because they're very lazy when they're not training. This is true. Not all athletes, but a lot of athletes are, and so they're really good at resting and recovering so they can train more. But a lot of athletes have a hard time getting into, into gear to, to train every day, and the cold is a great stimulus, right? It's a four sh- it's like a four shot of espresso kind of-

   26. JWJocko Willink55:40

       Right.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman55:40

       ... stimulus without all the jitters.

   28. JWJocko Willink55:42

       Yeah. I think, uh, maybe going in there for a minute would be cool before a workout. I will say this, so I had...... I had, like, a long workout and it was a Saturday, which means on Saturday I do jujitsu kind of in the morning around 10 o'clock. And I had, like, a long workout, went for a long run, it was hot, and I just got in the ice bath and I sat in there for, like, seven minutes, like, the deep chill. I got out and then I went right to jujitsu and I felt awful.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman56:09

       Mm-hmm.

   30. JWJocko Willink56:09

       I felt absolutely awful, like, tight cold-
10. 59:05 – 1:12:07

    Win vs. Loss Mindset, Leadership, Action & Energy

    1. AHAndrew Huberman59:05

       side of this and the kind of- the, the effects of winning and losing. So, you obviously have a, a lot of deployments, um, and a lot of wins, whatever in the context that meant, right? Kill the target, capture the capture, the hostage, et cetera. And then, um, as is the case with war, um, there have been some cases of losses, right? You've lost people, um, maybe there were targets that weren't accomplished, right? This kind of thing. And you've posted about these, and these are always, um, you know, things that are hard to see, but I think it's really important that you post about people that you've lost, right? Because first of all, these people served, but second of all that things don't always work out the way that we, we want and sometimes to really catastrophic consequences. There's a theory in biology that when we win, we somehow get more energy to, to win more through the release of, no surprise, dopamine and some related molecules. And in fact, testosterone in both men and women is another close cousin of the dopamine system. They're actually released from the same general... Or the, the patterns of release are from the same general areas in the brain, believe it or not, and body. But when we win, we feel like we can keep going, right? You look at the team that wins and it's like, they'll play another game. The Super Bowl winners, you imagine they're jumping up and down and they could probably play another Super Bowl. Losing, we know can, sure, it can drop things like testosterone and dopamine for some period of time, but when you were in the teams, what was your observation about how winning and losing would impact people in the short and long term? In other words, would you observe people that had a quick reset button? And could you say, "That was terrible." And then transmute, I guess I'm getting into kind of the e- the, the eastern language now, tr- convert that into energy to go do better the next time? Whereas we also see people, military and in the civilian world, that a loss, in particular severe losses, basically set them down the path of, like, less energy. It certainly isn't less calories. In fact, most of the time it's the other way, they start consuming more calories and that doesn't get them going. So again, this notion of energy, and now I'm asking wins versus losses, what did you observe and from the perspective of leadership and maybe more importantly from the perspective of yourself, how do you work with that? How do you calibrate wins and losses? How do you transmute losses into energy? Because wins we know convert to energy, but losses oftentimes can sap our energy way, way down.

    2. JWJocko Willink1:01:34

       I think f- to start with, I think that the selection process to get into the SEAL teams is going to weed out a bunch of people that can't recover very quickly from something bad.So, you probably heard these type of stories before. The kid that was the star of the football team, the star of the basketball team, the captain of this, the captain of that. He's been winning his whole life. He goes to BUD/S and he quits. Because in BUD/S, you're, you're, you're not gonna win. Y- you're certainly not gonna win everything. They're gonna find what you're not good at, and they're gonna exploit that, and you're gonna lose. Th- this is what happens. So, a lot of guys that may "lose" and it disrupts their, their motivation, they're probably just gonna quit. And so, that's why you get this massive attrition rate with guys that are studs. I mean, we're talking, uh, Division 1 athletes, Division 1 athlete, Division 1 wrestlers, Division 1 football players, Division 1 runners and swimmers. They all come to BUD/S. They all quit. Not all of them quit, but there's plenty of examples of the highest level of collegiate athlete in sports that translate very well to what you're doing in, in basic SEAL training, and they quit. And sometimes it's because they don't know how to lose, they don't know how to recover from a loss, and they're, they're just... So, so I think already in... Once you get to a SEAL team, you've got people that are, generally speaking, gonna be pretty resilient when it comes to dealing with a loss. Uh, not only that, I mean, you just get used... Uh, you, you talk about losing people. You're friends with this guy. You meet this guy in SEAL training. "Hey, this guy seems like a stud." Oh, he's just gonna quit. And, and you're gonna lose five, six, seven people, eight people. People quit so fast, you don't even ke- keep track of them. So you're just gonna lose. You're just gonna get used to it. So there's that. Now, once you're in the teams and what you're talking about is now you start taking m- much more significant loss. You're not losing a race, you're losing a... one of your friends. And this is what, from a leadership perspective, you have to, you have to pay attention to. So when you're, uh, a leader in any organization, you're basically in charge of a mob, w- when it comes to what their morale is. They're, they're a mob and they feed off of each other just like a mob rioting in the streets going, "Oh, we can break this window. Let's break all the windows." And they, they, they move with this mob mentality, and that happens with morale inside of a team. And you as a leader can't get caught up with the mob. You can't let that happen. You have to detach yourself from the mob mentally so that you don't get caught up in their emotions and their morale, because if you get caught up in their emotions and you get caught up in mora- their morale, you can't correct it. So, we go out on a mission. The mission goes great. We get into a gunfight, kill a couple bad guys. Everyone's okay, high fives, everyone's feeling great. You come back to base, "Hey, we don't need to debrief. That was perfect. Hey, we don't need to get our gear, you know, uh, maintained. We can just go to bed. We, we're awesome." That's when the leader has to say, "Oh, we've got the mob and the mob is becoming slightly arrogant. Hey guys, real quick, that was a good op, but there's some things we could improve upon." You gotta bring that mob back and bring them back to center line. Same thing in the other direction. You go out on an operation, it doesn't go well. You go out on an operation, you take casualties. Now you come back to base, you see guys moping around, you see the, the spirit starting to break, and it... Same thing. If you g- if you're part of that mob, y- you'll be, you'll be with them. Your morale will be breaking, your spirit will be breaking. You gotta look at them and say, "Oh, I see what's happening. Hey guys, listen up. That was tough. Didn't go the way we wanted it to go. We need to learn some lessons. Here are some things I can do better. What can we do better to make sure that that never happens again? What can we do to make sure we have the opportunity to go out and avenge our brother on the battlefield? What can we do to move this thing forward?" So as a leader, when it comes to winning and losing, you're generally going to be the person countering what the mob mentality is, 'cause when the mob starts winning, they wanna keep winning and they might get arrogant. When the mob is losing, they might start to lose more because their attitude goes down the drain. So, that's what you have to pay attention to from a leadership perspective. For, for me personally, I think... Oh, I know what I did when, when I lost guys was focus on, "All right, w- we need to, we need to celebrate the life, we need to move the lo- mourn the loss, and then we need to go to work. We need to get our gear back on. We need to lock and load our weapons. We need to get back out there." I, I know that that's what we needed to do. You know, so often, the best way to contend with, with problems, with issues, with adversity is action, is by taking action. The more you sit and the more you wait and the more time you spend with that adversity, with the upper hand inside your head, the, the worse it's gonna get. So for me, always taking action, making something happen. It doesn't have to be huge, it doesn't have to be some mammoth, you know, um, triumph that you're gonna go and, go and pursue. But if you say, "Hey, listen. This is what happened, didn't go the way we wanted it to. We're gonna get our gear back on, we're gonna go back out. We're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna do this other mission." And that's, that's what I think. I think taking action... And it's in, uh, in your personal life too, you know, if something doesn't go the way you wanted it to go, you didn't get the job you wanted, you didn't get the hire, you didn't get the promotion, you can go home and sit there and, and, and dwell on it. That's not getting you any progress. Or you say, "Okay, you know what? Let me do a quick analysis. Why didn't I get that promotion? Oh, it's 'cause I didn't get this qualification or I hadn't jumped through this gate. Okay, cool. What do I need to... Let, let me, let me look into how do I, how do I get to jump through that gate so next time I will get the promotion?" And you start taking action. So, action for me is a cure for a lot of problems that we have in life.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:00

       I love this because the image that's arising my mind, um, I'll share it with you and tell me where it agrees with and maybe violates what you're, what you're telling me. But what I was imagining when you were talking about leadership in the mob is, you know, a bunch of candles, but not wax candles. These are oil candles, and you're talking about a win. So you, you know, it could be an op, go out and win, it could be a team, it could be an individual taking an exam and they get an A+, so it, it doesn't matter. But they're, they're riding high. I mean, those wins we know crank up those catecholamines, and it's as if the intensity of that flame starts going up as a consequence, that's natural. But the oil in the candle is continuing to burn down. Like you need to celebrate wins, but you're burning that oil. And so what we're really talking about here is how to moderate and then reclaim energy. And I was imagining you as the leader who's like, "Okay guys, great, but listen, you're burning that oil, right? That oil is what got you the win." Let's not just clamp it, like we can, you know, do a fu- you know, a few fist bumps and you know, maybe celebrate in some other ways. But then let's real- let's take the energy we got and put it to the next thing rather than just go crazy. Drugs of abuse, in particular drugs that tap into the dopamine system, namely cocaine and amphetamine, and just 'cause there's no way to avoid this if we're being true to the biology, the, the energy, the dopamine system was designed for foraging for all sorts of things. Food, so people that overindulge food or seek out food. Sex, people that overindulge in these things. They, those things, and again, this sort of leans to Eastern philosophy a bit, but there's Western neuroscience or neuroscience we should just say, to support it, you start to deplete these dopamine systems. The baseline starts to drop. And so I'm imagining that the leader, you in this case, is saying like, "Listen, let's tone it down, re- use the energy that we've gained and put it to good use, rather than just burn it up enjoying it." And then of course w- after a loss when those, uh, I sort of think of the candles going dimmer and the, but the oil reserve is still there and it's like, how do you start to tap back into the oil reserve? Well, you have to actually ramp the candle up again. You can't just sit there waiting for the, you know, the, uh, the intensity of the flame to come back. You actually have to do something in order for that to happen. So maybe this isn't the best analogy 'cause it lacks sort of like the w- exactly what is the, the person turning the intensity up and down on these candles. But that's what comes to mind. And in Eastern traditions, there's this idea of qi, of energy. Energy to fight, energy to seek mates, energy to seek food, energy for sex, energy to, for all of it is the same energy. And I actually believe that the energy that they're referring to are these catecholamines. I really do. Now there are other energy systems too relating to child rearing, pair bonding, oxytocin, all the kind of like fuzzy warm stuff that's super important. I mean, we wouldn't exist as a species the way we do if, if we didn't honor that energy system also, and that energy system that we normally think of as love, as opposed to forward center of mass synergizes with this system, right? Like when you're ch- wor- working with and training with an, um, people that you love, this could be your, your brothers, your sisters, whatever, your family, there is, I think there's an amplifying effect on this whole thing, right? If it's just for more dopamine, just for more money, just for more wins, just for more trophies... I'll never forget this as an aside. When I was a kid, I had this weird experience where Tony Hawk's dad rescued me from a skateboard contest in Linda Vista, the Linda Vista Boys Club, everyone else left. I was left there alone, I was 14 'cause of my home life at that time, et cetera, and he was like, "Where are you going?" And I'm like, "I'm gonna take the bus to Lancaster. I know this guy." And he was like, "No, no, you're coming to our house." I was like, "Okay." So he took me to Tony's house and I went into Tony's room that he had grown up in, Tony lived in Fallbrook at that time, and the room wasn't filled with trophies. The room was trophies. And I remember just thinking like, "Holy cow." Like, and when I think about that and I think about what a healthy person Tony turned out to be, 'cause I happened to be blessed to know him a little bit, it's amazing 'cause a lot of people that had those trophies, whatever domain of life, they converted all that into ways to just burn the oil down in their candle. He's a guy who's still going in his 50s, right? So hey man, that's a little aside story, but I think this notion of energy to me is so important because as you said, when we move toward action and we complete something, the oil in that candle starts to get replenished and the flame burns hotter.

11. 1:12:07 – 1:13:11

    InsideTracker

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:07

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12. 1:13:11 – 1:24:01

    Confidence, Generators vs. Projectors, Family

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:13:11

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Episode duration: 4:04:26