How to Build Immense Inner Strength | David Goggins

Andrew Huberman 0:00 (uptempo music) Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is David Goggins. David Goggins is a retired Navy SEAL who served in Iraq and Afghanistan. He's also a highly accomplished ultra-marathon runner. For those of you that don't know, ultra-marathons are distances longer than 26 miles, and in David's case, often longer than 200 miles. For his achievements in athletics, he has been inducted into the International Sports Hall of Fame. He also held a Guinness World Record for the most pull-ups completed in 24 hours. I should mention that not only was David a decorated Navy SEAL, but he also graduated from Army Ranger School. David is also a highly successful writer, having authored two books, the first entitled Can't Hurt Me, and the second entitled Never Finished, both of which are bestsellers. David's books cover many topics, including his autobiographical description of what can only be described as an incredibly challenging child and young adulthood. His home was abusive. His school environment was abusive. He essentially had no positive resources directed his way, and in his 20s he found himself to be obese, that is more than 300 pounds, working a job he despised for minimal pay. And it was at that point that David began an inner dialogue that forced him to explore the demons borne out of his childhood, but also the position that he found himself in as a young man, and then began the journey to navigate that dialogue and transform himself into the Navy SEAL, the ultra-marathon runner, the bestselling author, and the extraordinarily positive and influential man that he is today. As some of you may know, David has done various public lectures. He's a familiar face online because there are so many clips of him on YouTube, and he has done podcasts before. However, I'm certain that you'll find today's discussion to be very different than previous podcasts that David has been featured on. The reason is that, of course we get into his accomplishments, we talk about the mindset that allowed him to achieve those things, but today David really lets us under the hood. He lets us into the form of inner dialogue that he has to embrace, indeed that he has to grapple with on a daily basis, sometimes multiple times throughout the day and night, in order to impose the sort of self-discipline that he is so well known for. We also get into some of the scientific mechanisms underlying willpower, and we talk about David's current endeavors that include, for instance, his own exploration of science and medicine, for which he has become an intense scholar and practitioner. I should mention that multiple times throughout today's discussion, you will hear curse words. Now, David and I both acknowledge that cursing isn't for everybody, and that cursing itself is different than cursing at somebody. Nonetheless, we do realize that many people, parents perhaps especially, might not want to hear cursing. If you don't want to hear cursing, well then this podcast episode is probably not for you. However, if you are comfortable with cursing or if you can tolerate it, I assure you today's discussion is highly worthwhile.

Andrew Huberman 3:22 Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is Maui Nui Venison. Maui Nui Venison is the most nutrient-dense and delicious red meat available. I've spoken before on this podcast, and there's general consensus that most people should strive to consume approximately one gram of protein per pound of body weight. Now, when one strives to do that, it's important to maximize the quality of that protein intake to the calorie ratio, because you don't want to consume an excess of calories when trying to get that one gram of protein per pound of body weight. Maui Nui Venison has an extremely high-quality protein-to-calorie ratio, so it makes getting that one gram of protein per pound of body weight extremely easy. It's also delicious. Personally, I like the ground venison, and I also like the venison steaks. And then for convenience when I'm on the road, I like the jerky. The jerky has a very high protein-to-calorie ratio, so it has as much as 10 grams of protein per jerky stick, and it has something like only like 55 calories, so again, making it very easy to get enough protein without consuming excess calories. If you would like to try Maui Nui Venison, you can go to mauinuivenison.com/huberman to get 20% off your first order. Again, that's mauinuivenison.com/huberman to get 20% off. Today's episode is also brought to us by AeroPress. AeroPress is similar to a French press for making coffee, but is in fact a much better way to make coffee. I first learned about AeroPress well over ten years ago, and I've been using one ever since. AeroPress was developed by Alan Adler, who was an engineer at Stanford, and I knew of Alan because he had also built the so-called Aerobie Frisbee, which I believe at one time, perhaps still now, held the Guinness Book of World Records for furthest thrown object. And I used to see Alan, believe it or not, at parks around Palo Alto testing out different Aerobie Frisbees, so he was sort of famous in our community for developing these different feats of engineering that turned into commercial products. Now, I love coffee. I'm somebody that drinks coffee nearly every day, usually about 90 to 120 minutes after I wake up in the morning, although not always. Sometimes if I'm going to exercise I'll drink coffee first thing in the morning. But I love, love, love coffee, and what I've personally found is that by using the AeroPress I can make the best possible tasting cup of coffee. I don't know what exactly it is in the AeroPress that allows the same beans to be prepared into a cup of coffee that tastes that much better as compared to any other form of brewing that coffee, even the traditional French press. The AeroPress is extremely easy to use and it's extremely compact. In fact, I take it with me whenever I travel and I use it on the road in hotels, even on planes. I'll just ask for some hot water and I'll brew my coffee or tea right there on the plane. If you'd like to try AeroPress, you can go to aeropress.com/huberman. That's A-E-R-O-P-R-E-S-S dot com slash huberman to get 20% off any AeroPress coffee maker. AeroPress ships anywhere in the USA, Canada, and over 60 other countries around the world. Again, that's aeropress.com/huberman to get 20% off.Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep. Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity. I've spoken many times before on this podcast about the fact that sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance. Now, a key component of getting a great night's sleep is that in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees, and in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees. One of the best ways to make sure that those temperature changes occur at the appropriate times, at the beginning and throughout and at the end of your night when you wake up, is to control the temperature of your sleeping environment, and that's what Eight Sleep allows you to do. It allows you to program the temperature of your mattress and sleeping environment such that you fall and stay deeply asleep easily and wake up each morning feeling incredibly refreshed and energized. I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for almost three years now, and it has dramatically improved the quality of my sleep. If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, you can go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get $150 off their Pod 3 mattress cover. Eight Sleep currently ships in the USA, Canada, UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia. Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman. And now for my discussion with David Goggins.

Andrew Huberman 7:58 David Goggins, welcome.

David Goggins 7:59 My man. Good to see you again, man.

Andrew Huberman 8:01 Great to see you. It was late 2016, early 2017, I believe, when you were in my lab at Stanford.

David Goggins 8:06 Yes, sir.

Andrew Huberman 8:07 Uh, we did a little work later that, that day-

David Goggins 8:10 Yep.

Andrew Huberman 8:10 ... uh, down in San Jose and... Gosh, uh, I see you everywhere, but it's not enough, so great to have you here.

David Goggins 8:16 (laughs) Thanks for having me on, brother.

Andrew Huberman 8:17 Yeah. You embody discipline and doing hard things.

David Goggins 8:22 Right.

Andrew Huberman 8:23 I think we should just start right off with-

David Goggins 8:25 Yep.

Andrew Huberman 8:25 ... the, the bol-

David Goggins 8:25 Let's just go there.

Andrew Huberman 8:26 ... the bold truth.

David Goggins 8:27 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 8:28 But right before we went hot mics-

David Goggins 8:30 Right.

Andrew Huberman 8:31 ... we were talking about learning.

David Goggins 8:33 Right.

Andrew Huberman 8:34 Right now, you're spending some time learning and doing things that I think most people probably don't typically associate David Goggins with.

David Goggins 8:41 Right.

Andrew Huberman 8:41 Why don't you tell us about that?

David Goggins 8:42 Well, most people just look at me as the guy that runs and yells as he's running, and that's, uh... While I do that, you know, it's to motivate people, but people don't understand that my day is broken up into segments. I work out, I eat, I sleep, but I spend most of my time studying. So, like, I'm in the medical world, I'm a, you know, paramedic in, uh, in, um, Canada, but I spend a lot of my time trying to nuke every single thing about it, because I'm not trying to just be a paramedic, learn about veins and arteries and how the heart pumps and stuff like that. I'm trying to learn to the point where I can save someone's life. And even though paramedics are doing that all over the world, I'm trying to be that paramedic that can really dissect exactly what's going on and figure out, you know, what medication goes where, just trying to... You know, just trying to learn the, you know, the, uh, the algorithm of what's going on, man. So I spend a lot of time with it.

Andrew Huberman 9:37 I love the word algorithm 'cause when I teach biology or try and learn anything-

David Goggins 9:41 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 9:41 ... that's related to biology and especially the human body-

David Goggins 9:44 Right.

Andrew Huberman 9:44 ... I need to know the nouns-

David Goggins 9:46 Yep.

Andrew Huberman 9:46 ... but it's the verbs that matter, and that's really what you're talking about. Like h- Like, just saying that g- that sits there, that brain part there-

David Goggins 9:53 Right.

Andrew Huberman 9:53 ... doesn't tell you how it all works together.

David Goggins 9:54 No.

Andrew Huberman 9:55 So what does your process for studying look like? Like, if we dropped a, uh, a, uh, camera in the room, but-

David Goggins 10:02 Right.

Andrew Huberman 10:02 ... a microphone into that, into your inner dialogue-

David Goggins 10:06 Right.

Andrew Huberman 10:06 ... gosh, wouldn't, wouldn't we all love that? But if we dropped a microphone into your inner dialogue, are you waking up looking at the books and going, "Yeah, fresh day-"

David Goggins 10:13 Right.

Andrew Huberman 10:13 "... let's learn"? Or is some of the same resistance that you've talked about coming up around physical-

David Goggins 10:19 Yep.

Andrew Huberman 10:20 ... work, is that coming up from time to time?

David Goggins 10:22 You know what? I was nervous at first. I'm gonna keep the mother f- I'm, I'm gonna keep it real.

Andrew Huberman 10:26 Please.

David Goggins 10:27 I'm gonna keep it real. So I'm not a real smart guy. And what I mean by that is I was born with ADD, ADHD. All... Like, my brain cannot retain information. I'm not some genetic freak when it comes to running, when it comes to lifting weights. I'm, I am absolutely the bottom of the barrel. And people will never believe me, and they can just... You know, whatever, believe what you want to believe. So when you asked me this question about what does studying look like for me, I have to go over the same page over and over and over and over again. While Jennifer can look at that page, while she's, you know, quizzing me, she'll learn it right then as she's... She doesn't even know anything about it. She will quiz herself, or quiz me, and learn it as she's quizzing me. It's the most frustrating thing in the world how my brain works. So what I, so what I do is I literally sit there with a pen and paper and I have my books, and I go through and have to write everything down. Every single day, I will study the same page until it's photographic memory from writing the same thing down, and then from there, I'll go back through and relearn it again. So I'll learn the bulk of it, but then I'll go through and learn the small things within that. So if it's a medication, I'll learn what the medication does. I'll first, I'll learn how to even say the medication, 'cause these medications aren't like, you know, like albuterol. No, it's, it's, it's very big words, so I'll go through and learn how to say the name. Then I'll go through, learn what the dose is. Then I'll go through... And this is, like, every single day. It's not like, "Oh, I got it. Let's just go through." No, nothing is, "I got it." Every single thing, that's... So I, I, I can't wait to get in this conversation, 'cause everything I do in life, it sucks. Everything I do in life, it sucks. That's why when I was 300 pounds and 24 years old, it wasn't like I had some big epiphany of, "Let's just go be a Navy SEAL and let's lose some weight." No. I knew my entire life was gonna be a struggle.... which is why I just ignored it and I said, "I'm not even trying to jump off into this shit and learn how to read, how to write, how to memorize, how to become something I am not." But through that process, something happened to me and I realized, that's, this is why I feel sorry for no one. In this podcast, they're going to really not like me because people are gonna think that I am maybe lying or maybe fibbing or exaggerating. No. I am literally... I was the lowest form on earth. No talent, no ability to learn, and I literally know what it is to be rock bottom and to build that up. So that question about learning? It's a pain in my ass and I don't have to do it. So think about it, I'm 49 years old, I'm a multimillionaire. I don't have to do anything. So all I thought about when I was growing up is, "Man, I can't wait to one day get to the point where I no longer have to do this stuff." But what happened as I got older, it became a way of living. So how I do every day is how I do every day. It's a, it's a discipline, it's a regimen, it's a, it's a... It was a choice I made and the choice I made was, what are you willing to sacrifice and what are you willing to give up to find every bit of who you are as a human being? And I was willing to give everything to do that. So studying is no joke.

Andrew Huberman 14:14 I love that you're studying. I recall a few years ago I heard, uh, some interview or podcast with you and you just threw out like, "I don't know what I'll do next. Maybe I'll be a scientist."

David Goggins 14:24 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 14:24 And I, and I went, "Yeah!"

David Goggins 14:25 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 14:26 I was like... 'Cause I knew, 'cause I know you a bit-

David Goggins 14:29 Right.

Andrew Huberman 14:29 ... and I see your work out there, but we had met before, that if you decided that, you were gonna do it.

David Goggins 14:35 Right.

Andrew Huberman 14:35 And learning medicine, which is what you're doing-

David Goggins 14:38 Right.

Andrew Huberman 14:38 ... learning human physiology, it is so detailed.

David Goggins 14:42 Very.

Andrew Huberman 14:42 And, and people, uh, out there have to understand, when you look at a textbook and you see the, the veins and the capillaries d- different colors?

David Goggins 14:48 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 14:49 When the, when the body's open, they're not different colors.

David Goggins 14:51 Right.

Andrew Huberman 14:52 Right? (laughs) You know, they're not-

David Goggins 14:52 Right, right.

Andrew Huberman 14:53 So, I mean, some things are, have different color contrasts, but it's not like it's all labeled when you pop it open.

David Goggins 14:57 Exactly.

Andrew Huberman 14:58 And

Andrew Huberman 14:59 so, so the process of writing things down by hand-

David Goggins 15:02 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 15:02 ... is important for you. Do you go... So you go back and read those notes. Do you think about that stuff on your runs too or are you segmenting your day? Like when you're done studying, are you heading out for a run and thinking about other things or are you still rehearsing the material in your head?

David Goggins 15:16 So when I write it down, I write it down and I'm able to... I'm actually looking down at this table right now 'cause I'm back to writing. So I'm actually there right now as I'm speaking to you. I write it down in a way that I'm memorizing page 69. So I'm writing it down so then writing it down and that page sync together in my brain. So I'm looking at the book in my brain right now. So like, that's just how it works for me and I have to do it over and over again. So that page is stuck in my mind so I'm literally flipping through pages as I'm taking these tests and I'm taking these national tests to become a paramedic or become a advanced EMT or whatever. I'm literally, as I'm taking that test, I'm going through and I'm like... And I'm flipping pages in my head to where that page was. And how I do that is just from how I, how I write it and how it's on the page. When I run, I can't recall any of it.

Andrew Huberman 16:15 Hmm.

David Goggins 16:16 I cannot, I cannot bring any of that because I'm running. How my mind is wired now is that everything I do is what I do because the focus it takes for me to... Like right now, I'm running. I'm not like a great runner. I'm not like injury free. So like my first 20 minutes of the run, I'm limping. I'm literally limping because I've had several knee surgeries and my body was twisted and so now it's untwisting. So people look at me, "Oh, it looks like he's limp-, you know, like limping when he runs." I am limping when I run. My body's jacked up so I'm focusing on how to get the best out of a broken body. So everything I do is a total focus on what I'm doing at that, at that point in my life.

Andrew Huberman 17:02 So it seems like you've really trained away or somehow gotten away from the ADD that you mentioned.

David Goggins 17:08 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 17:08 Because what you described is like a deep trench.

David Goggins 17:11 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 17:11 Like a V-shaped trench.

David Goggins 17:12 Right.

Andrew Huberman 17:12 And I'm imagining like there's a ball bearing and it's like thump and it can only go forward in that trench-

David Goggins 17:16 Right.

Andrew Huberman 17:16 ... or back and it goes forward. It, it's not like sliding around at the, like concave at the bottom.

David Goggins 17:21 Right.

Andrew Huberman 17:22 Doot, doot, doot, doot. Like a tension. So it's like you've trained that up. Is there a similar feeling when you're in the full focus of running versus f- full focus of studying? Is it kind of feel like, oh yeah, that's the same groove but different thing? Or is it just completely different world?

David Goggins 17:38 It's a completely different world. Complete-, like it's just both of 'em for me is, is suffering, but it's suffering a whole different way. Like when I was going through school, I'll never forget, I think I was in third grade and back then, you know, ADD, ADHD wasn't like, you know, here's this medicine or here's this thing. They want to put you in a special school.

Andrew Huberman 18:00 Mm-hmm.

David Goggins 18:01 So for me, I was so far behind in learning that their big thing was, "Let's just put him in a special school because he'll never learn." And through that process of like, "I don't want to be in a special school. I don't want to be treated any differently," it really... Like I never took medication. I've never taken medication for this. That's why right now you see me looking right in your eyes. What the hell is, is, you know, is Truman saying right now? And that's why I don't feel bad for people who have ADHD, who have learning disabilities. And some are impossible because you just can't.

Andrew Huberman 18:38 Mm-hmm.

David Goggins 18:39 But a lot of 'em you can and but people don't want to go through the process of focus.... of teaching yourself how to truly focus. This is where my message gets lost. It gets lost 'cause I may say, you know, "MF" or "F," wherever, you know. I may be... 'Cause that's the passion that comes out of me 'cause that's... It takes everything for me to learn a sentence. So when I speak about David Goggins, I can't speak about David Goggins in a way that's just calm and cool. Because when I wake up, I know the journey that it takes for me to find my greatness and it's hard. Every- nothing is easy. Nothing just like, oh, I wake up and I just do this, or I do that, or it just... No. I watch people every day go through life and it's so easy. For me to be where I'm at today, it takes every bit of me. So when I speak about it, and as I get going here, you'll start seeing me, the tempo will rise, the passion will come out because I'm back there. I'm doing what I do every day to become a human being. And so nothing is easy. Like, running is running. It sucks, but you have a choice to make. Do you want to sit down and go back to that guy you once were? No. So this is what it takes. This is what it... It takes that misunderstanding of people and they'll never get it 'cause they were never David Goggins. So that is what it takes for me to do what I do. It may take you something differently. So for me, everything has to be in the studying, everything has to be in the this, everything has to be in... Everywhere I am has to be there. Me, focused where I am. That's why you're my second podcast I've done since Rogan since the book came out. I don't have time for that shit. Because if I want to be great, I'm not trying to maximize money or maximize people knowing me. I do these things because maybe someone out there will understand me and get it and say, "I can grow from this guy," and others just won't.

Andrew Huberman 20:35 Sounds like friction is something you're very familiar with. I just-

David Goggins 20:39 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 20:39 It's a word just that I feel like is, like-

David Goggins 20:40 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 20:41 ... cast above us right now-

David Goggins 20:42 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 20:42 ... in bold face, highlighted, underlined letters. And just like-

David Goggins 20:44 Friction is growth.

Andrew Huberman 20:45 ... friction.

David Goggins 20:46 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 20:46 Like, you're, you're up in the morning and I imagine David Goggins going to the coffee maker-

David Goggins 20:51 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 20:51 ... stretching out, good morning, sunshine. And you're telling me from eyelids open-

David Goggins 20:56 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 20:57 ... there's friction.

David Goggins 20:58 Yes. And that is the thing that people don't, they don't fucking get. The biggest misunderstanding about David Goggins of all time is like, whether you believe in God or not, I do. He put this lab rat, which is me, on this planet, and said, "Let me fucking see would a beat-up, abused kid who has, who can barely learn, barely learn, who has a twisted body, messed up, messed up genetics, sickle cell, this and that, let me give him everything that pretty much disqualifies you from the military." But back then, it wasn't

Narrator 21:35 (laughs)

David Goggins 21:36 ... as str- And, and let's put him in this and see what comes out of it. So to do that, friction. You don't wake up in the morning time and go to the coffee maker. Matter of fact, sometimes you don't even sleep. What it requires is when I'm at two o'clock in the m- it's two o'clock in the morning and my brain is thinking about a fucking drug and I gotta get up and look in my book to see what that drug is, how I remember it, and this is every day of my fucking life. That's when I train a fighter or I train some... I'm like, "You have no fucking idea how great you really are. Because you are using such minimal, minimal of what you have." And if people can learn to focus, this is what's possible. While it may not be pretty, like, people want to do a documentary on me. I go, "No. I don't want you to do a documentary on me. Because I will have normal everyday people picking me apart on, 'His life is miserable. Who wants to live like that? He looks... It's crazy how he's... It's almost like he's sick, he's psychotic.'" The most frustrating thing in the world for me is when normal people judge a man like myself on what it really takes to extract greatness from nothing. It takes every bit of who you are, if you choose that route. If you don't, merry Christmas, do what you gotta do. But yeah, all these things for me, like, like I told you, man, I'm gonna keep it real. I didn't, I'm not coming here to talk about, like, you know, Perform Without Purpose. 'Cause I go through, when I write these books, I go through, I try to dumb down David Goggins. How can I give normal people... And I'm normal, but I found something that most don't want to find. How can I speak to people and give them something from this crazy psychotic brain that I've developed? How can I give them that? So I sit down with Jennifer for years and write down Perform Without Purpose, Callous Your Mind, Armor Your Mind, the Cookie Jar, the Accountability Mirror, shit that people can fucking use in their lives. No. No. I'm glad it helps you, but the barbaric life that I live, that you have to live, the almost obsession that you must have to be great, you can't put that shit in a fucking book, bro. You can't put it in a book. You can't. You can't write about it.

Andrew Huberman 24:13 It has to be experienced.

David Goggins 24:13 It has to be experienced. And you can't even... After you experience it, to write it in a book, it would seem like you need to be locked up. Just saying.

Andrew Huberman 24:24 Too g- too gory.

David Goggins 24:25 It's, it's too gory, doesn't make sense for a guy that everything, every second of the day, he is trying to extract more from something. He's constantly think-, he's constantly, constantly disciplined, never going off the path. Whatever is injured on him, he figures a way. It's a conqueror's mindset.... and very few people, if any, can really understand what that is. Like, a- a- t- I'm almost 50 and I've been this way for almost 30 years. Like, what do you do for fun? You, you would never... I, I, I, these questions, I don't, I don't get 'em. I don't understand 'em. I don't... So, yeah. It's-

Andrew Huberman 25:07 I get asked that sometimes, "What do you do for fun?" I start listing off all the stuff like podcasts and reading-

David Goggins 25:11 Right.

Andrew Huberman 25:11 ... and working out. (laughs)

David Goggins 25:12 Right.

Andrew Huberman 25:13 But, so some of that resonates, but I think what's

Andrew Huberman 25:16 so truly unusual about what you're describing, your process-

David Goggins 25:21 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 25:22 ... is that, you know, from go, it's hard.

David Goggins 25:25 Yep.

Andrew Huberman 25:25 And I have to ask, was being 300 pounds, having a cent- I'm using the words you've described.

David Goggins 25:31 No. Do it.

Andrew Huberman 25:32 You, you've said it before.

David Goggins 25:33 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 25:33 You had a tendency at one point in your life early on tell lies.

David Goggins 25:37 Yep.

Andrew Huberman 25:37 Try and get people's approval.

David Goggins 25:38 Lie my ass off.

Andrew Huberman 25:40 Crazy haircuts.

David Goggins 25:41 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 25:41 Attention-seeking. And, and yet all of that triggered something-

David Goggins 25:47 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 25:48 ... that now is, you know, is extraordinary.

David Goggins 25:51 Right.

Andrew Huberman 25:53 Do you think those hardships were necessary to flip the switch?

David Goggins 25:58 I don't know if they were necessary, but it was something that made me feel... I didn't feel good. It was easy. The brain that I was given as a child, it was easy to go home and think about what... how do I want to be a freak today? How do I want to show up to school today and be a freak? It didn't require me going home and opening a book up saying, "Fu- (laughs) it's gonna take me all year to learn this fucking page." So, instead of learning that page, I learned how to become a character. And maybe that character that I created, that 300-pound insecure guy that used to fake, fake-it-'til-I-make-it type of guy, you know, let-me-become-your-friend, let-me-lie-to-you-until-you-like-me type of guy, when, when you have any kind of... any manhood, womanhood, a human being, a soul, a spirit, any... I had no... I had... I must had just this much pride 'cause that's exactly what opened the door for me, 'cause every day, you were a character. Every day, you were a clown. Every day, you opened that Spanish book or that science book or English book and you, like, you looked at it and was like... it looked like a foreign language. And you're saying, "Where do I start? Wh- who do I start?" And obviously, it was necessary. The more I talk about it, it was necessary 'cause what happened is I became haunted by the mere fact that this is my existence. And you gotta live with that. I lived with it for a lot of years, and so I sat back and said, "Okay, all right. I know what this takes." And when you sit back as fucked up as I was and I had a laundry list, a, a, a table like this of what I have to do to become just a human being that can make ends meet, that can make $1,000 a month. Just to get there was like, oh, my God, dude. Like, how do... I, I'm 16, 17, I can't read, I can't write, and I... Oh, my God. I'm so behind the power curve and my brain is about being depressed and my dad beat me, Mom's not home, and kids are calling me niggar at school. And I'm like, "Oh, my God, man. What the fuck do I do?" And it wasn't like someone came around and said, "Hey, man. You can do this." This is all me. Some people don't know, where does this cold man come from? I'm not trying to be cold. It's the reality of my life. It's the reality of a lot of people's lives. And so, yeah, it, it... that had to happen for me to be haunted, to be haunted to pull out, to extract the guy at the end of today. That haunting is something that's still there today because no matter how much you improve and no matter how much you change who you are, it's not permanent. You don't just wake up and say, "Oh, my God, man. You're... you're David Goggins. You break records. You do this, you do that." People want to know how are you, how are you able to just be so hard? 'Cause I never turned the fucking thing off, 'cause once it turns off, I go right back to the David Goggins that is... and that's the guy that I'm constantly fighting every day. And it's a choice, and that choice makes you misunderstood. It makes you crazy. That's why I hate fucking social media. In 2013, people wanted me to write my book. I did it in 2018. It took five years. And the reason why I didn't do it, I sat at a table and Jennifer was there. This is before I, I, I... she started working for me and I started dating her or whatever. And all these people were there, and they're like, "Man, you gotta go on social media." And I was like, "Fuck you, man." Like, I'm not... th- that's... it's, it's poison. It's poison because I knew what I did to get where I am, and I'm gonna have these people, these normal everyday people, fat, lazy, in- exactly who I was, judging me. 'Cause I know it 'cause I was once them. All my hard work, all my dedication, I'm gonna have some normal dude getting his little brownies, his little ding dong, ho ho, Twinkie, sit there with his coffee picking me apart and, "Oh, he must be unhappy. He's just..." Do you know how hard it is to put these shoes on every damn morning and I'm gonna have you pick me apart? So yeah, there's, there is a- there's so much that goes into this that I was like, "Fuck this. I never want anything to do with it." So, anyway...

Andrew Huberman 30:48 I'm not a psychologist.

David Goggins 30:50 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 30:50 But knowing your story from what you've written, what you've said on s- social media and elsewhere, podcasts-

David Goggins 30:56 Right.

Andrew Huberman 30:56 ... and here now especially-

David Goggins 30:57 Right.

Andrew Huberman 30:58 ... it's amazing to me.

David Goggins 30:59 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 31:00 And frankly, it pulls at my heartstrings a little bit, I realize that's not what you're trying to do, but that in the course of your childhood and in your young adulthood-

David Goggins 31:08 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 31:08 ... that no one ever got between you and the world.

David Goggins 31:10 No.

Andrew Huberman 31:11 I forget where I heard it, that, like, if a kid has just one person that believes in them-

David Goggins 31:15 Right.

Andrew Huberman 31:15 ... you know? And I had my trials and tribulations, but I had great coaches, great mentors-

David Goggins 31:20 Right.

Andrew Huberman 31:20 ... I attached to them. I found them if they didn't necessarily find me.

David Goggins 31:23 Right.

Andrew Huberman 31:24 But I'm realizing that your situation was no one's ever said, "Hey, I'm gonna stand here next to you or get in front of you-

David Goggins 31:31 Right.

Andrew Huberman 31:32 ... put a shield up."

David Goggins 31:33 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 31:34 And so it's almost like you've got these different ver- it's all you, but there's versions of yourself that, like, you knew social media, like, I don't know that I have the wherewithal in 2013, '14, '15, '16, '17-

David Goggins 31:48 Right.

Andrew Huberman 31:48 ... to get in front of myself while doing all this 'cause I've already got so much going on in here.

David Goggins 31:53 Right.

Andrew Huberman 31:53 Is that about right?

David Goggins 31:54 That is right, but I had developed a lot of anger, and I still have it, and it'll never go away, for the normal human beings of this world. Because when you put yourself in the sewer like I was in, and please, if someone saved me, come out and announce it to the world. There was no one. There's no one. So when you know that, and then I'm sitting at a table with all these smart people who are telling me what to do and shit and guiding me through my life now when I'm 40 fucking years old, you know? Two thou- I was, I don't know, 40-something years old, now I'm 49, and I'm looking at 'em all and they're, and they're now trying to guide me on what's right, on this poison. And so yeah, what you say is right, but for me it was more of I know now. I don't need you to guide my future. I know what's good for me and what's bad for me. And for me it took every bit of focus I could, and I know social media, that's why people love to go on there, because they want to show you the good side of life. I'm not teaching good side of life. So I had to figure out a way when I came on 2016 of teaching you what life really is for the majority of us is hell. And so while people love to show you the cars and the house and the vacations and shit, all that's good, all that's happy. I'm gonna show you the side that I know most of you're going through. And people hide very well. I don't want to hide anymore. I hid for 24 fucking years. So that's why now I told you, we can talk about any- whatever you want, because as human beings, the one re- the, the, the first thing we have to learn, I also stuttered real bad growing up, so if you hear me stutter every now and then it's because that was part of my life also. So it's funny, human beings want to show you the best side and they want to hide the worst side. For me, I'm gonna teach you how to be vulnerable, 'cause that's the only way you fix yourself. You don't fix yourself by coming out here and me selling you some fucking books. That's why I don't have 'em. I forgot 'em. I'm glad people got something from the book. I want you to learn that the only way you grow is how to look at yourself and say, "Okay," like I did, "table longer than this, what the fuck I have to do to get somewhere?" There was nothing good on there. Nothing. Yeah, I loved playing basketball. I left that out. That's something I loved to do. I don't care about that. That, that didn't make the fucking list, 'cause the list that I had to live by was it... was the very list that was to get me at this table with you to talk to you, to the normal human beings which I once was about how you can get somewhere and how it looks. Looks very ugly. There's no passion. There's no motivation. There's no, "Oh my God, man, I fucking..." This is... No. It's every day of your life just doing. No passion. No discipline. No motivation. Y- all these words I hate people... I hate that so many people use these words now 'cause it- it's, it's watered. It's someone sitting in the room by themselves and they figure themselves out and say, "God, this is gonna fucking suck." Where's passion when you're 300 pounds? Where's the motivation when you can't read and write? Where is it? So how did this happen? I just fucking did. I just did. I said, "Maybe at the end of this journey there'll be something there for me. If not, I can read. If not, I'm 185 fucking pounds." There's noth- there's, there was, there was no magic potion. There's no, "Oh, let me wake up and look at some shit." No. All those words are overused. They're bullshit. It's all bullshit. Just do. You're living. How do you want to live? How do you want to die? How do you want to fucking be remembered? That's, that's it. That's it. Period.

Andrew Huberman 36:14 As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast. AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that's designed to meet all of your foundational nutrition needs. Now, of course, I try to get enough servings of vitamins and minerals through whole food sources that include vegetables and fruits every day, but oftentimes I simply can't get enough servings. But with AG1, I'm sure to get enough vitamins and minerals and the probiotics that I need, and it also contains adaptogens to help buffer stress.Simply put, I always feel better when I take AG1. I have more focus and energy and I sleep better, and it also happens to taste great. For all these reasons, whenever I'm asked, "If you could take just one supplement, what would it be?" I answer, "AG1." If you'd like to try AG1, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer. They'll give you five free travel packs plus a year supply of vitamin D3K2. Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman.

Andrew Huberman 37:11 The word haunted-

David Goggins 37:12 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 37:12 ... is ringing in my head.

David Goggins 37:14 Yep.

Andrew Huberman 37:16 I think it's such a powerful word-

David Goggins 37:18 Yep.

Andrew Huberman 37:19 ... 'cause I was about to say it seems like a huge part of your process, maybe the entire process is it's all stick, no carrot. You know, you talk about-

David Goggins 37:28 Yep.

Andrew Huberman 37:28 ... the carrot, the positive thing, and then there's the stick, the thing you're trying to avoid.

David Goggins 37:31 Yep.

Andrew Huberman 37:32 I feel like it's... The way it's landing for me-

David Goggins 37:35 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 37:35 ... is it's all stick and gas pedal.

David Goggins 37:39 That's it.

Andrew Huberman 37:40 There's no carrot. You're not imagining, "Oh, when I'm a paramedic, when-

David Goggins 37:44 Nope.

Andrew Huberman 37:44 ... the book is published..." And obviously you set those goals and you make those targets-

David Goggins 37:48 Yep.

Andrew Huberman 37:48 ... but it's all stick.

David Goggins 37:50 All stick.

Andrew Huberman 37:51 No carrot.

David Goggins 37:52 Think about that. I'm waking up right now studying like I have a test tomorrow. I might pass the fucking test. Think about that. Every day of my life. That's what I must do just to retain what I learned. Four hours plus a day I go through and do that. There's no stick, or there's only a stick. There's never been a carrot. Which is why when I speak to people, I have to figure out a way to resonate with them. 'Cause all I want to say to them is, (laughs) "Let me teach you the real life, how it really is. The reason why you're a loser, and the reason why you're not fucking making it, and the reason why you're trying to go through all these..." I go to all these fucking conventions, speak all the fucking time. I look in the fucking audience and these people sign up, sign up, sign up fucking every year to go to a convention thinking they're going to learn something fucking different. No. You're lazy, you know exactly what to do, exactly what to do, 'cause even me, in my state of I can't read and write, I knew exactly what to do. It just sucks doing it. It sucks to do it. It sucks to wake up every morning of your life and say, "God, man, I'm, I'm not smart. So guess what I got to do? I got to, I got to study the same shit that I got one of the highest scores in the nation on and do it again, do it again, do it again." It's not just there. It's not just there f- permanently for me. So yeah. It's all stick. It's all stick. The only carrot you have is like, "Maybe, maybe." 'Cause whenever I take these tests that are real hard, in the back of my brain it's like, "There's a good chance you're not going to make it, Goggins. This ain't you, bro. This ain't you. You weren't born like this. This ain't you. The real you, bro... Study all you want to, but the second that computer comes on with 150 questions, this ain't you, man." And somehow it comes back, I passed. I passed again, I passed again. But that real me back here every fucking time is saying, "That ain't you, bro. That ain't you." And I have to outwork that voice. When I'm taking that test and I get to a question, I don't fucking know the answer, I'm like, "Fuck, man." And then say, say, "I told you, man, that ain't you. You're 300 pounds, man. You sit at home, you figure out how to do your hair. That's what you do. How to come to school with the reverse baldness when you're 16. That's what... That, that's, that's you." So there is no get out of jail free card. This is why I say stay hard. Because when you weren't given the gifts, the only thing you can do in life is stay hard. And I know people cannot stand me. They can't stand this talk. This is all you can do. There's no magic pill or a magic potion. All you can do is outwork the man that God created, or woman, in you. And what that looks like is unfun. That's why I said do not do a documentary on me. Because people will not see the truth. They will see what they want to see, is, "I don't want to live like that." Good. Good. And you will live exactly the way you live now, questioning who you are, wondering what is possible, wondering what you are capable of doing. That's how that looks. Or you can be me, which... Am I happy? I don't know. Never really thought about it. Don't really care about it, 'cause all I really cared about was when I looked in that fucking mirror, I saw a piece of shit. Happiness wasn't on the mirror at 16 or when I was 300 pounds. It wasn't like, "Oh, my... I'm looking for happiness." No. I'm looking to look at myself in the mirror and say, "All right, motherfucker, you did it again today. You're a bad boy, 'cause that shit sucks." And have about a couple minutes of that where I got the carrot. The second I lay down to go to bed, the carrot's gone because I'm waking up all through the night to check the work I did that day. Did I get this drug right? Did I get this right? Did I get that right? What did I do? Oh my god, fuck. I'm, I'm, I'm already losing it. It's a stick.

Andrew Huberman 42:35 That stick is haunting you.

David Goggins 42:37 Haunting.

Andrew Huberman 42:38 It's following you around.

David Goggins 42:39 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 42:40 So no picture of Jordan on the wall, you're not listening to YouTube inspiration video?

David Goggins 42:44 No.

Andrew Huberman 42:44 Those would be all your voice anyway. (laughs)

David Goggins 42:47 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 42:47 ... you're not, uh, listening to your top 10 favorite songs just to get rolling and then lace the shoes, hit the books. You're, it's all in here.

David Goggins 42:55 All in there. I used to do that when I was fat. Rocky, I mean, people know that, that was my thing. Uh, Round 14 was my thing. And as I got older and older and older, that started to go away. And I started to create... I had all these people that I used to watch. Rocky was one, Barnes, Elias from Platoon, um, Jack from A Few Good Men, you know, when he's on the stand going crazy. I saw a lot of these characters that I looked at and I was like, "Man, I ain't got none of that." But they were characters. After a while, I lived a life so disciplined that everybody that I once looked to, these fake characters, I, I, I built that as a man. And when I was younger, I had this image in my mind of, "What does a man look like to me?" And I got all these people who were badasses, characters, and in my mind, I became that. And that's what kept me going a lot, was I had this pipe dream of becoming a little bit of this and a little bit of that, 'cause when you have no parents raising you and you have no role models growing up, you... It's not daydreaming. You start to create a reality like, "Hmm, maybe I can be that." And after becoming this guy, that is the biggest thing I can ever do in my life is I became that guy, that I once looked at all these guys, now I look at myself like, "God, who the fuck can do that?" I can. But what it takes is a, a discipline that no one can ever even... They, they just don't, they don't understand it. They don't understand. Everybody has the ability to do it, but they just don't want to. They wanna keep asking questions and keep going to seminars. And the greatness is right in you, and that's why, once again, I'll say this a million times here, I do not feel sorry for you.

Andrew Huberman 45:04 Mm-hmm.

David Goggins 45:05 I will not sugarcoat what I'm gonna say to you because all of you know when I'm saying this, the truth. Everybody knows it's the truth. This is what it looks like. And you know it too. You know it too. This is what... If, if you ain't got nothing, I hate to tell you, but what it looks like is ugly. It's not a documentary. It's not an HBO special. You ain't gonna watch something, "Hey, man, you guys gotta watch this." No, it's like, "Oh, God, this looks like a train wreck. This is like a nightmare. This looks like this guy got..." No, it's what it looks like. Hard work looks horrible. It's not motivating. It's not motivating at all. It ain't like Rocky Round 14 where he gets knocked down and goes like this to Apollo Creed. It looks like a man being stuck in a fucking dungeon and there's no fucking way out, but you have the fucking key, but you refuse to use it. And that's nothing motivating about that. So yes, no document on David Goggins.

Andrew Huberman 46:01 The real life-

David Goggins 46:02 The real life.

Andrew Huberman 46:02 ... David Goggins is the, is the documentary. It's al- it's already being written. You're it.

David Goggins 46:08 Right.

Andrew Huberman 46:08 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 46:09 I'm gonna share a little neuroscience tidbit-

David Goggins 46:11 Love it.

Andrew Huberman 46:11 ... but I think it's one that you'll appreciate. Um, most people don't know this, but there's a brain structure called the anterior mid-cingulate cortex. As we pointed out before, that's a noun, it's a name. It doesn't mean anything.

David Goggins 46:23 Right.

Andrew Huberman 46:24 We could call it the, the Cookie Monster.

David Goggins 46:26 Right.

Andrew Huberman 46:27 But what's interesting about this brain area is there are now a lot of data-

David Goggins 46:30 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 46:31 ... in humans, not some mouse study, showing that when people do something they don't want to do-

David Goggins 46:38 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 46:38 ... like add three hours of exercise per day or per week, or when people who are trying to diet and lose weight resist eating something-

David Goggins 46:48 Right.

Andrew Huberman 46:49 ... when people do anything that they, and this is the important part, that they don't want to do-

David Goggins 46:53 Right.

Andrew Huberman 46:53 ... it's not about adding more work, it's about adding more work that you don't want to do.

David Goggins 46:57 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 46:58 This brain area gets bigger.

David Goggins 47:00 Yep.

Andrew Huberman 47:00 Now, here's what's especially interesting about this brain area to me. And by the way, I'm only learning this recently-

David Goggins 47:05 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 47:05 ... because it's new data, but there's a lot of it. The anterior mid-cingulate cortex is smaller in obese people.

David Goggins 47:13 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 47:15 It gets bigger when they diet.

David Goggins 47:16 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 47:17 It's larger in athletes.

David Goggins 47:19 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 47:20 It's especially large or grows larger in people that see themselves as challenged and overcome some challenge.

David Goggins 47:28 Right.

Andrew Huberman 47:30 And in people that live a very long time-

David Goggins 47:33 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 47:35 ... this area re- keeps its size.

David Goggins 47:38 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 47:39 In many ways, scientists are starting to think of the anterior mid-cingulate cortex not just as one of the seats of willpower-

David Goggins 47:45 Right.

Andrew Huberman 47:46 ... but perhaps actually the seat of the will to live.

David Goggins 47:50 See, now we're talking.

Andrew Huberman 47:52 And when I learned about the anterior mid-cingulate cortex, I was, like, almost out of my seat. And I've been in the neuroscience game since I was 20.

David Goggins 47:58 Now we're talking.

Andrew Huberman 47:59 We're the same age. And I was so pumped 'cause I've heard of the amygdala fear, prefrontal cortex is planning and action. I could tell you every brain area and every... I teach neuroanatomy to medical students, but when I started seeing the data on the anterior mid-cingulate cortex, I was like, "Whoa, this is interesting."

David Goggins 48:17 Yep.

Andrew Huberman 48:18 And all the data point to the fact that we can build this area up-

David Goggins 48:22 Yep.

Andrew Huberman 48:23 ... but that as quickly as we build it up, if we don't continue to invest in things that are hard for us that we don't want to do, that's the part that feels so Goggin-esque-

David Goggins 48:33 Yes, sir.

Andrew Huberman 48:34 ... to me, that we don't want to do.

David Goggins 48:35 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 48:36 Like, if you love the ice bath, "Yeah, I love the ice bath," and you go from one minute to 10 minutes-

David Goggins 48:40 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 48:40 ... guess what? Your anterior mid-cingulate cortex did not grow.

David Goggins 48:43 None.

Andrew Huberman 48:44 But if you hate the cold water-

David Goggins 48:46 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 48:46 ... if you're f- afraid of drowning-

David Goggins 48:48 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 48:48 ... and you get into water and put your head under-

David Goggins 48:50 Mm-hmm. Yep.

Andrew Huberman 48:52 ... then your anterior mid, and survive, then the anterior mid-cingulate cortex gets bigger. But if you don't do it the next day, or if you do it the next day and you enjoy it-

David Goggins 49:00 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 49:01 ... 'cause, "Hey, hey, I did it yesterday, woo hoo!"

David Goggins 49:04 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 49:04 "Happy me, merry Christmas," as you would say.

David Goggins 49:05 That's right. Merry Christmas.

Andrew Huberman 49:06 Guess what? The m- anterior mid-cingulate cortex shrinks again.

David Goggins 49:10 Yep.

Andrew Huberman 49:10 To me, this is one of the most important discoveries that neuroscience has ever made.

David Goggins 49:14 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 49:15 Because it's that, I don't want to do something but do it anyway...

David Goggins 49:19 That's right.

Andrew Huberman 49:20 ... that grows this area.

David Goggins 49:21 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 49:22 And it's almost like, I have a friend, he's been sober 30 years from alcohol.

David Goggins 49:25 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 49:25 And he always says, "You know, the amazing thing about addiction is there's a cure. The problem is, it only works one day at a time."

David Goggins 49:32 Yep.

Andrew Huberman 49:33 And so you have to renew it every day. (laughs)

David Goggins 49:34 That's right.

Andrew Huberman 49:35 So the anterior mid-cingulate cortex, to me, when I learned about it, two th- two things went off in my head, "Whoa, this is super interesting," and two, "I gotta tell David Goggins about this." And I waited until now...

David Goggins 49:45 Oh, wow.

Andrew Huberman 49:45 ... to tell you because I felt like I... Well, for obvious reasons, I wanted to tell you and I wanted to tell you here.

David Goggins 49:51 Well, I love that because that's how I've lived my entire life. I didn't know anything about that. But people go, "Man, you have such a strong will." It's something that you build. Like, I'll never forget, I was on a podcast (laughs) one time and this dude goes, "You were blessed with a strong mind." Like, the hell you talking about I was blessed with a strong mind? Y- that's something that you have to develop. You develop that over years, decades of suffering, and going back into the suffer. That's why a lot of people who graduate Navy SEAL training, they wanna know, like, am I... I talk about it very openly all the time, a lot of guys don't go, don't, don't wanna go back into that water. Don't wanna go back into the hard stuff. And maybe not anyst- anything hard. Anything hard in life, once you get through it, it's like you become a POW.

Andrew Huberman 50:53 Mm-hmm.

David Goggins 50:53 Like, how many POWs do you know wanna go back to POW camp? None. When something sucks so bad in life, this is on this that we're talking about now, very few people wanna go back. They're happy they graduated. I realized, I'm the same way, I don't wanna go back. I have to go back. I must go back. Because that is exactly where all the knowledge of my life exists, was back there, and what you're exactly what you're talking about. Well, I, I didn't know anything about this. But how I grew a will was constantly doing these things. To now, it's just life. I wake up, while it still sucks, it's just life. You don't sit back and like, "Oh my god." Like, I have days I don't wanna do it, but I know I'm gonna do it. I know from years of just doing it. So, I, that, that's, that's beautiful, and this is why I came on here with you today and I, and I'm glad that you're talking about this, because human beings need to hear this. They need to stop hearing these hacks on this and that. There's no fucking hack, bro. There's no fucking hack. Yeah, you may this and that and saunas and thi- and all this shit that they, yeah, it's great. There is no fucking life hack. To grow that thing, how do you grow it? Do it, and do it, and do it, and do it. That's the hack. The hack is gonna fucking suck. And that's what I realized. That's what I realized. Life, th- that's why I wanted to come on here today. I didn't wanna come on here and talk about no fucking passion and purpose and how to get the fuck outta bed and how to hit a fucking alarm clock and all this catchphrase bullshit, 'cause that wasn't how I lived. It wasn't how I lived. I lived, I woke up like every human being does and goes, "Fuck, man. I'm a fucking piece of shit today. How the hell is this gonna work out for me?" And you fight that. And you fight that. You don't override it. There's no override button. It's the conversation in your fucking, like, in your head. So how do you do that? We don't have enough of these conversations about the real conversation that every human being is having. And they have no idea how to get out of it, but they do. It's that shit right there, man. You gotta build your will. How do you build your will? Exactly what you said, man. Exactly what you said.

Andrew Huberman 53:23 Well, I feel like knowing the name of something, anterior mid-cingulate cortex, doesn't fundamentally change us, but one thing I like about biology...

David Goggins 53:31 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 53:32 ... is that willpower, if somebody feels they don't have it...

David Goggins 53:36 Right.

Andrew Huberman 53:36 ... it feels like this thing that other people have, but everybody, unless they're brain damaged, like, a hole...

David Goggins 53:42 Right.

Andrew Huberman 53:42 ... through their head, has two anterior mid-cingulate cortex, one on each side of their brain. Everyone has one.

David Goggins 53:49 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 53:50 They have two. So, I feel like it's just a question of opening the portal. And the portal, what I, again, I've said this, say, it ten times, and forgive me, is I think people go, "Oh, I do hard things. I do sets to failure and then I do forced reps." I love training with weights.

David Goggins 54:06 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 54:06 I love doing sets to failure. I even like forced reps. But guess what? I like forced reps, so I c- I'll tell you, they don't build my anterior mid-cingulate cortex.

David Goggins 54:14 Right.

Andrew Huberman 54:14 'Cause I like to do it.

David Goggins 54:15 That's right.

Andrew Huberman 54:16 Anything you like to do (laughs) is not gonna enhance this aspect of willpower.

David Goggins 54:20 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 54:21 And it seems so obvious once you hear it, you kinda go, "Oh, yeah. Of course." But I think you really close that loop for people...

David Goggins 54:29 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 54:29 ... when you share what you're sharing today, and what you've shared elsewhere before as well when you're trying to explain the friction is the critical ingredient.

David Goggins 54:38 Right.

Andrew Huberman 54:39 And I think people think, "Oh, if it's effort, well, then I'm getting better." That's part of it, necessary but not sufficient, as we say...

David Goggins 54:45 Right.

Andrew Huberman 54:45 ... in science. But the suck part.

David Goggins 54:47 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 54:48 The haunt, be- being haunted...

David Goggins 54:50 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 54:51 The stick.

David Goggins 54:51 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 54:52 They're really unpleasant terms.

David Goggins 54:53 Very.

Andrew Huberman 54:54 These are probably the most unpleasant terms we've ever used on this podcast.

David Goggins 54:57 Very.

Andrew Huberman 54:58 Those are the...... those are the levers.

David Goggins 55:01 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 55:01 Those are the gears, and without those, this thing that you're talking about, David Goggins-

David Goggins 55:06 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 55:07 ... as a verb-

David Goggins 55:08 Right.

Andrew Huberman 55:08 ... you know, I, I sometimes make the joke, but it's not a joke.

David Goggins 55:11 Right.

Andrew Huberman 55:11 Goggins is a name.

David Goggins 55:13 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 55:14 And it's a verb.

David Goggins 55:15 Right.

Andrew Huberman 55:16 People go, "I'm gonna Goggins that."

David Goggins 55:17 Right.

Andrew Huberman 55:17 Right? But that's, I think, again, I'm not a psychologist, but I think that's what you're talking about. The stick-

David Goggins 55:23 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 55:23 ... the friction, being haunted, it's the suck part that grows this anterior mid-cingulate cortex.

David Goggins 55:30 So now you know why there's so many people that fail in this world to figure out their purpose, their purpose in life, where do I go. Because to grow that, while you may not look like me, how my daily life looks, it don't look fun. It don't look fun. So it's a choice that people have to make in life. But what's so funny about it is, even the richest of rich who have everything, they always ask me this question, "I feel like I'm missing something." I don't feel like I'm missing shit. I don't have what you all have, but you'll never in my life hear me tell you, "I'm missing something." Everybody is. They're missing this feeling. I found it, a long time ago, and I found it right there in that willpower thing. When you're nothing, nothing, and change yourself into something, like me, you call it happiness, peace, whatever the fuck you wanna call it, people are missing exactly what went on with David Goggins. "Why don't you smile?" I do. I do. But I figured something out. That's why I am never... You'll never hear me say, "I'm missing something." I found it years ago. You find it in the suck. You find it in the suck, and you find it repeatedly in the suck, to the point where you know exactly who you are. Most people are missing something because they don't know who they are. They never examine themself. They- they've never done this experiment on themselves. The lab rat, we're all lab rats. But you're also the scientist. You create your own self. Most people are missing something 'cause there's so much trapped in there. I want... I don't even wanna say potential. I think that's... Word just used out too much too. There's so much in you that God, or whoever the hell you believe in, or if you're an atheist, in you, that you have not un- unlocked, that you walk around with this gorgeous wife or- or great husband and all this money, and you're like, "God, I feel like I'm missing something." Yeah, because it's about 75% of you is still fucking in there. Still chained up. Because you just didn't wanna find your willpower, didn't wanna find your soul, your will, your heart, your determination, your guts, your courage. And what that looks like, it looks scary. Like, your little scary lab I went in. Scary to wake up every day and say, "I'm stupid, but I wanna figure out a way to be smarter," versus saying, "Man, I just can't do that." So you limit this box. So your box becomes so small of things you can do. My box wasn't even a box. It was a fucking little, like, l- l- little pinhole. And then, through examining myself, getting some willpower, some courage, it became bigger than this table. But that's what we all do. That's why I wanted to come here today and talk to you about real shit. Not no fucking, like, hacks. There's no hacks, bro. It's you against you. You against you. And if you misunderstand that, you have a real problem, real problem. I can understand if you misunderstand me running down the street, shirt off, "Fuck this. Yeah, yeah." I can, I can get it. I get it. If you misunderstand what I'm saying right now today, the problem is you, and you don't wanna fix it.

Andrew Huberman 59:14 Well, the children of wealthy people are a case s- study in how not having e- enough friction can destroy a life.

David Goggins 59:22 True statement.

Andrew Huberman 59:23 I mean-

David Goggins 59:24 True statement.

Andrew Huberman 59:24 ... I could list off prominent names in the press, but those are actually the least interesting. What's probably more interesting as an example is all the ones we don't hear about, 'cause we never hear about them.

David Goggins 59:34 Right.

Andrew Huberman 59:34 They just dwindle and wither. Or, I think there's this big category of people I'm realizing as we have this conversation today, that they're not super successful, they're not struggling.

David Goggins 59:48 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 59:49 They're, like, successful enough-

David Goggins 59:51 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 59:51 ... that they never have to... That you can get to the point where you don't have to impose friction. You even said it-

David Goggins 59:57 Right.

Andrew Huberman 59:57 ... your bank account is in a place where you don't really need to do all the things you do, probably not even a small fraction of them.

David Goggins 1:00:02 Do nothing.

Andrew Huberman 1:00:03 Right. But you realize the stick and being haunted is the, uh, the fuel in the engine-

David Goggins 1:00:09 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:00:09 ... and you'd be a... You'd be truly crazy to give that up, because you've- you've internalized all that.

David Goggins 1:00:15 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:00:15 But most people, they're- they're good enough-

David Goggins 1:00:18 Yep.

Andrew Huberman 1:00:18 ... for them.

David Goggins 1:00:19 Yep.

Andrew Huberman 1:00:20 And so they don't actually wanna be better badly enough-

David Goggins 1:00:23 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:00:24 ... in order to start going rung after rung, you know?

David Goggins 1:00:28 Well, think about when you build willpower, and think about how much I've built. Now that you know about this, this... I didn't know about this, but think about how much I've built. Everything I've ever done in my life, I didn't wanna do. Everything, every day. I'm a lazy piece of shit, and I'm one of the hardest working people to ever step foot on this planet Earth. And I'm saying that very proudly, 'cause I know what I do. It's not cocky. I'll tell you I'm stupid, and I'll also tell you the exact opposite of what I've done. It's the truth. It is the truth. So imagine how much I've developed in that timeframe. But this the scary thing-... why most people don't wanna do that, build that willpower, is because of this, Gary. It unlocks a whole bunch of things about who you are and who you're not. And a lot of people don't wanna go down that journey to discover who they are and who they're not, 'cause it's, it's not a pretty journey. I mean, I've gone down it... It's not like I went down it once. I go down it all the time. And when you unlock that... And you, you can't just turn it off. Like, people say, "Hey, well, how, how come you haven't retired yet?" I built all this willpower. Do you think it's gonna let me just retire because my l- my, my knees hurt? It's telling me every morning, I wake up, I'm like, "Man, I don't... My knees hurt, my arth- my legs hurt, my body hurts." "But you can still run, so why aren't you running? If you can still run, there'll be a time when you can't lace 'em up anymore, but you can still run." So I still run. When the time comes I can't run, the body will say, "You just can't run." But if I can still do something, that willpower that I have created, it makes me do it every fucking day. And that's what they don't get. What builds a human being is you start with the small building blocks, and before you know it, man, you become something that you... It doesn't even make sense to most people because it's just who you are now. That's why I can still run at 50 with broke, with, at 49, with broke down knees and broke down body, because my body knows, "You still can." Therefore, I do. Second you stop, the, the willpower is gone. And that's beautiful. I'm so glad you brought that to me, because I always wondered, uh, what's this separation thing now? At 24 years old, I started building something that I didn't even know was gonna be what it is now at 49. And that's all it was, was just that.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:08 This structure, anterior mid-cingulate cortex, has inputs and outputs from a bunch of places, but you'll probably not be surprised to learn that it's strongly activated when we move our body-

David Goggins 1:03:19 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:20 ... when we don't wanna move our body. W- I feel like it, it's like the-

David Goggins 1:03:24 Jesus.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:24 ... David Goggins-

David Goggins 1:03:25 It is, man.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:25 ... structure, right? You know?

David Goggins 1:03:27 It really is.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:27 It is. And it also has strong connections to the dopamine reward pathway.

David Goggins 1:03:31 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:31 And everyone goes, "Yay, dopamine reward." Everyone loves dopamine.

David Goggins 1:03:34 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:35 I'm partially responsible for people knowing a bit more about dopamine.

David Goggins 1:03:39 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:39 But dopamine's badly understood. Everyone thinks dopamine, dopamine hits, it's about reward. It's about motivation and drive.

David Goggins 1:03:47 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:47 And there are pain inputs to the dopamine centers of the brain. No one talks about that. Everyone's like, "Oh, you want the chocolate, you know, chocolate, sex, cocaine, all the..." Yeah, that's all true.

David Goggins 1:03:57 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:58 You release dopamine. Pain releases dopamine. The anterior mid-cingulate cortex can trigger the release of dopamine in response to this thing that we're calling friction. And that's a learned thing. That's something that no animal or human being comes into the world learning. We all are averse to pain-

David Goggins 1:04:16 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:16 ... and like pleasure, like sugar, fat, don't like hot f- surfaces.

David Goggins 1:04:21 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:22 But this is a structure that learns.

David Goggins 1:04:24 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:25 It has neuroplasticity, the ability to change throughout the entire lifespan. And here's the part that I think, again, this is just neuro-nerd speak for what you already know and have done and exemplify, is that it... People will say, "Oh, it has plasticity, you can change it." But guess what? It has plis- plasticity in both directions. It can grow, but just as easily as it can grow, it's like Silly Putty, it can shrink.

David Goggins 1:04:47 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:48 So, it requires constant upkeep.

David Goggins 1:04:51 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:51 And that answer isn't one that people are gonna like.

David Goggins 1:04:54 Nope.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:54 They're like, "Give me the energy drink, give me the supplement, give me the-"

David Goggins 1:04:58 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:58 "... give me the sauna protocol-"

David Goggins 1:04:59 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:59 "... that's gonna make my anterior mid-cingulate cortex-"

David Goggins 1:05:02 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 1:05:02 So someone out there right now is going, "Wait, if I took transcranial magnetic stimulation and I stimulate..." Yeah, you probably... Actually, they've done that. They stuck a little wire during neurosurgery into this structure. This was actually discovered by a, a colleague of mine, Joe Parvizi. Stimulate, and the patients go, "I feel like there's a storm coming." And then they go, "Oh, is it scary?" And they go, "No, I wanna go through it." They come off the stimulation and people are like... This is the seat of what we're talking about.

David Goggins 1:05:31 Right. Exactly.

Andrew Huberman 1:05:32 And it learns. So, the fact that you've kept this brain structure, I'm convinced if we imaged your brain, it'd be large and it would be larger in two years, in a year. But this is the No Days Off rationale, 'cause it can grow and it can shrink.

David Goggins 1:05:49 I know. What you're saying right now, I didn't know any of this. And I never... And I always talk to people, I, I wish I could just put this on paper and, and you're saying it in a way that people can understand. I could never put into words on what I built and the power that is within all of us, but you put it so, like, in, in a scientific way. Most people are like, for me, "He's just crazy." That's why I don't like talking about it, man. I know I'm not crazy. I know what I had to do to get where I had to go. People look at it as crazy because there are people that just... If you can't imagine yourself doing something, if you can't imagine yourself doing something, the person that's doing it is crazy. Because in your mind, the logic behind it, it doesn't compute. Therefore, you have to give somebody a title. And a title for me is usually, he's crazy, he's this, he's that. No, no. For some reason, me wanting to be somebody so fucking bad in my life, I created that, and I've been trying to figure out years of my life, trying to explain to people. But even though you're explaining it now, this is the easy fucking part. Them listening to this shit is the easy fucking part. The part that why there'll always be the ones of ones...... is because putting that practice, put- putting that into actual work? No, man. No, no. That's where the demons come in. That's where you're like, "I, I, I don't wanna be better. I don't wanna be better. If this is what it takes to be better, I don't wanna be better." So everybody's, that's why there's a lot of average, and it makes me so fucking mad. Every day I walk this earth and I see average all over the fucking place and they wanna ask me, "How did you do it?" "I can't tell you how 'cause you're not gonna fucking, you're not gonna do it. You're not gonna do it. You're just con- you, you're gonna continue being..." 'Cause every day you wake up, like you said, it's not like, get the coffee. Make the, make the pancakes. Kiss the girl, kiss the kids. You wake up, (snaps fingers) right to work. Immediately your mind is in action. No one wants to do that, no one. And I don't blame 'em. But don't be mad when you're laying there in your fucking bed and you're in the fucking hospital and you're 70, 80, 90 years old and you're thinking, "Man, I feel like I didn't fucking do something." 'Cause you did. You didn't do it. You didn't do shit. You may have lived a great life, man. But you're always gonna feel empty inside. I don't feel empty. So call me what you want. There's not one empty bone in my fucking body because I have figured out that really the magic potion, at least to my life, and it's very rewarding.

Andrew Huberman 1:08:53 I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor, InsideTracker. InsideTracker is a personalized nutrition platform that analyzes data from your blood and DNA to help you better understand your body and help you reach your health goals. Now, I've long been a believer in getting regular blood work done for the simple reason that many of the factors that impact your immediate and long-term health can only be analyzed from a quality blood test. A major problem with a lot of blood tests out there, however, is that you get information back about metabolic factors, lipids and hormones and so forth, but you don't know what to do with that information. With InsideTracker, they make it very easy 'cause they have a personalized platform that allows you to see the levels of all those things, metabolic factors, lipids, hormones, et cetera, but it gives you specific directives that you can follow that relate to nutrition, behavioral modifications, supplements, et cetera, that can help you bring those numbers into the ranges that are optimal for you. If you'd like to try InsideTracker, you can go to insidetracker.com/huberman to get 20% off any of InsideTracker's plans. Again, that's insidetracker.com/huberman.

Andrew Huberman 1:09:55 People like to talk about what they used to be able to do. I hear this a lot, you know, "You should've seen me in high school." I always laugh.

David Goggins 1:10:02 Yep.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:02 Like, yeah, okay. Got it. Um, and it's not just guys, "You should've seen me working out in high school."

David Goggins 1:10:07 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:07 "I was super fit." Um, people will look back to a time where they felt like they were capable of something and now they're not.

David Goggins 1:10:15 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:16 And you kind of want to just grab them and go, "Wait. That was you then. It's you now." And, but people tend to think about how the conditions that were around success must've been part of it. And you can understand why. It's like, it's very rational. "I was in that situation, I was successful. I'm in this situation, I'm not. That was the past. This is the present." Ergo, capable, right?

David Goggins 1:10:39 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:39 You see how people get into these loops. And as you mentioned, you spent the first 20 years of your life in an extremely challenged circumstances.

David Goggins 1:10:46 Very.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:47 And then you can see how people get to a point where like, everything feels hard. Like, when you're 300 pounds, I haven't ever been 300 pounds, but I can't imagine it feels good to get up and move around.

David Goggins 1:10:59 It's defeating.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:00 I got a friend, he's in excess of 300 pounds. We've been trying on him for years, but no, no win. And he's got crazy psoriasis on the back of his calves and he, he actually smells bad sometimes 'cause he, he, um, can't wash as well as he would. He's b- big, big.

David Goggins 1:11:17 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:18 And, uh, it pulls on my sympathy.

David Goggins 1:11:20 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:20 You know? But life is very hard for him and getting worse. He's a young guy with a lot of medical issues now.

David Goggins 1:11:26 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:26 For obvious reasons. And so I think people like that think, "Well, it's already hard. Why would I make it harder?" Your message is a little different, and you have the life experience.

David Goggins 1:11:38 It's a lot different.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:39 You've been there.

David Goggins 1:11:39 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:40 So for me, saying, "Oh yeah, lose weight." You know? I was a skinny guy who got to be a less skinny guy, so I don't really have a foot to stand on.

David Goggins 1:11:51 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:53 What do you say to those people who are like, "Listen, I'm... Getting up in the morning is hard."

David Goggins 1:11:58 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:58 "Trying to not dissolve into a puddle of my own tears and my own misery is hard."

David Goggins 1:12:04 Do you know why people connect with my book so well? For some reason, God put me in almost every fucked up situation on planet Earth. So when I talk to people, it's not sugarcoated 'cause I, I'm not saying it from I'm, "I was 175 pounds my whole life." I don't say much to those people. I s- Maybe you're a piece of shit. Maybe you're, you wanna be nobody. Maybe you're happy exactly where you are in life 'cause obviously you are. Maybe you don't have the determination to be somebody better than who you are. And if you wanna live with that, I'll support you in that. If you're good with being who you are, that every day you wake up and every day you smell like shit because you can't wash your body well. And your skin's messed up because your health's so bad. And you can't put your clothes on right, you need help with that. You need help, like, when I was 375 pounds, I needed help wiping my ass. That makes you feel good? Nothing I can say to you. If every day you wake up with this... See, people are haunted, but they obviously like horror films 'cause they keep watching the same fucking movie. I don't like horror films. A lot of people like horror films, so I don't say much to them. I say exactly what I said to you right there, because I was once you.I didn't like horror films, so I changed it. Some people are just... They become, like you said, it gets real small when you're lazy and you're fat. Your will, their will is so small that they don't have any and you can't give it to them. There has to be something. This is, this is what I'm talking about now, because this isn't a hack. This has to be in you. Something in you has to wake up, and usually the only person that can wake it up is you. Sometimes you can read a David Goggins book because I was all this shit and then a lot more of fucked up. But if you don't have a little flame, you know, just that, just barely... You're done. I can't, I can't light it for you, and that's the harsh reality of this life that I want to get across so fucking bad. You can watch me, you can watch you, you can watch fucking Rogan and Cameron Hanes, all these motherfuckers. You can go to Tony Robinson's fucking bullshit. All this shit, you can do all this shit. If you, you could keep going back and keep spending money and spending money and spending money with no results. You can wonder, wow, maybe, let me go try out David Goggins. He ain't gonna fucking help you. You have to explore, examine the insides of yourself and what do you really want out of life? Your friend and a lot of people out here just don't fucking want it. So guess what? Have fun with your life. Go from 300 to 350 to 400 to 450 to 500 because you don't want it, and that's the harsh reality. I can't give you shit. You can't give them shit. I can give you ideas. At the end of the day, when I was losing the weight, I had to miserably wake up every morning in the cold, 'cause it was Indiana, November is when it started. I was miserable. This is your new life. Take it or leave it. There's no happiness about it. There's no peace behind it. It sucks. It just fucking sucks. And that's the one thing, if I could teach anybody anything, it just fucking sucks, and it's gonna continue to suck. And then one day you'll get to a s- a s- a special part in your life that it might get a little bit better. But to lose the weight you have to lose, my friend? Sorry. It's gonna suck every fucking day, 'cause when you're 300 pounds, you're gonna go out to lose weight, you could probably get injured. So then you gotta work on the injury and then you get even more depressed. This is what I went through. And then you're hungry 'cause now you're depressed. It's, it's just a vicious cycle, and if you're not strong mentally and you have no willpower, you're gonna continue falling back in this hole, versus the man that sits back and goes, "All right, motherfucker." That... This is why I cuss, because this is what is in me. This is, this is what it took for me to be me. Sorry. It didn't take, "Hey, okay, we're gonna do this today." No, this fucking really sucks. This is real, dude. This is real. And every day, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm set back, I'm set back, I'm set back, I'm set back. So this is what I would tell your boy. This is what... Exactly what I'd tell him. Every day you wake up, you're gonna probably be set back for the first four weeks before you lose, because significant weight, because of the mind's gonna be fucking with you the whole time. There's no dopamine. There's no dopamine in there at 300 pounds. You, you got nothing. Your hormones are shot. You have to envision something that is more powerful than you. Something has to get you out of bed, and you have to create it. It has to be false, 'cause you're not it. You're a fat piece of shit, and that's the reality of it. So you have to create a false reality to live in that, just to get to work on yourself. That's the reality.

Andrew Huberman 1:17:36 He'll, he'll see this and he'll appreciate that message. We'll see what he does.

David Goggins 1:17:40 We'll see.

Andrew Huberman 1:17:40 So, so far, last 13 years, it's been no movement. But I've had other friends who, uh, who were drug and alcohol addicts who quit after one conversation, never went back.

David Goggins 1:17:53 That's awesome. That, that means they, they want it.

Andrew Huberman 1:17:55 Yeah, just one, one guy, I won't out him, but walked up to me at a party in 2019, July 4th party, and said, uh, "I'm a pile." And I go, "What?" And he goes, "I'm a pile. Look at me. I'm 60 pounds overweight." And I go, "Do you drink?" He goes, "Every day." I go, "How much?" He goes, "A case." He goes, "I smoke a lot of weed." But he's successful in other areas of his life, and so I said, "Well, here's what I know. Quit alcohol and weed for you." You know, I'm not telling people what to do. "Don't eat until 2:00 PM. Get on a exercise bike and pedal in the morning like someone's chasing you with a poison dart till you want to puke." And I was kind of half joking.

David Goggins 1:18:35 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:18:36 And then, uh, two months later, he was like, "I haven't had a drink. I lost 30 pounds." He lost that 60 pounds, he never went back. Now he's, he's super fit. It's amazing. So some people flip the switch.

Andrew Huberman 1:18:47 He is very self-critical-

David Goggins 1:18:49 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:18:50 ... by nature.

David Goggins 1:18:50 That's what flips the switch.

Andrew Huberman 1:18:51 He's super self-critical.

David Goggins 1:18:53 Yep. That's what flips the switch.

Andrew Huberman 1:18:55 Yeah.

David Goggins 1:18:55 Think about it, man. We know what to do. We don't need Andrew Huberman to tell us what to do. We know what to do. Every one of us. That's why he flipped it so fast, 'cause he knew what to do. He didn't go by your exact protocol. He didn't go by the exact... No, he knew exactly what to do, and you just saying some shit to him, it woke something up. He knew what to do, and that's the thing that people need to get that. You know what to do. Why aren't you doing it?

Andrew Huberman 1:19:31 And I'm talking about myself now, you know, those modes of just kind of passive consumption.

David Goggins 1:19:37 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:19:37 They're so easy to wash over us.

David Goggins 1:19:39 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:19:39 I used to have this thing, and I'm fighting this now-

David Goggins 1:19:41 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:19:42 ... because I knew we were going to have this conversation today, where I like to start things on the hour or the half hour.

David Goggins 1:19:46 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:19:46 Worst practice in the world for me, because if I miss that half hour, I'm like, "Ugh. It's 12:33. I'll start at 12:45."

David Goggins 1:19:57 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:19:58 "Uh, it's 12:45. I'll start at 1:00." I just lost time.

David Goggins 1:20:03 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:20:03 And then... And th- So, this is so stupid, right? And the other day, I was like, "Man, I got to tell David about this," because my new thing is, I start no matter what time it is.

David Goggins 1:20:12 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:20:13 If I wake up in the middle of the night, I got a friend, he paints in the middle of the night. I'm like, "You're an insomniac?" He's like, "I don't know. I just do it." Then sometimes, he goes back to sleep. Sometimes, he doesn't.

David Goggins 1:20:20 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:20:21 Everyone's got their thing, but I thought about this. I'm like, I'm... No more am I going to say, "I'm starting at 1:00," because I- I know me.

David Goggins 1:20:26 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:20:26 If I miss the 1:00 ding-

David Goggins 1:20:28 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:20:28 ... and then my pen's not hitting the paper or I'm not typing on the- on the keyboard, I'm not going to do it.

David Goggins 1:20:33 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:20:33 Like, that- that's a self-admitted weakness.

David Goggins 1:20:36 I love it, man. Um, I had that for a lot of years. Um, I know I'm going to do it. That's the haunting part, is that I- it's going to happen. It has to happen. And that's a fact. Like, there's no get out of jail free card, bro. None. Like, that is a life that I don't know. I don't ha- I don't have that ability, or I have the ability. I don't have the, um... (gasps) I'm not good enough, smart enough. I'm not talented enough to do that. Some people are. Some people can start at 1:00. Some people don't have to start at all. If you lack talent, you can't sit back and say, "Hmm. I'll start in half an hour." I can't do that. I got to start now. And after I get back from starting, I got to start again. And then when I get done with that run or that study session, if it wasn't good enough, I got to go back again, because repetition is what... is- is- is what taught me everything. So, you can honestly outwork anything, but it's that you obviously are a very talented man.

Andrew Huberman 1:21:53 Well, I- I have worked hard at certain things and built up some things that I've been good at most of my life.

David Goggins 1:22:00 You're amazing.

Andrew Huberman 1:22:01 R- look, gathering-

David Goggins 1:22:02 Truly.

Andrew Huberman 1:22:02 ... organizing and disseminating information is something I've been doing since I was a little kid. I used to give lectures at school on Monday about s- stuff I learned over the weekend.

David Goggins 1:22:09 See, check that out.

Andrew Huberman 1:22:10 But they- they took me to a psychiatrist. We're the same age. Back then, if we got sent to a psychiatrist, it meant people-

David Goggins 1:22:15 Oh, you-

Andrew Huberman 1:22:15 ... thought you were crazy. D-

David Goggins 1:22:16 I wasn't one. (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:22:17 Yeah. Exactly.

David Goggins 1:22:17 I, I wasn't one. (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:22:18 Exactly. So, so I remember feeling like a freak. I also... I didn't have a stutter, but I had a grunting tic. (clears throat) It comes back when I'm tired, and the only thing that helped that was hitting my head on something, shaking my head, which is why skateboarding was good 'cause I'd slam, and I'd feel, like, "Oh." Feel good. That's not healthy. You know, that's not good, or just work. Work is what gets it out. It's like an... It's like a RPM are high. (imitates engine revving) You know? Anyway, that's me. The... But yeah, I think certain things over time, I feel like talent or gifts or whatever you want to call them, but there are many things that are exceedingly difficult for me. And I- and I have learned from your example. I know that you- you are