How to Exercise & Eat for Optimal Health & Longevity | Dr. Gabrielle Lyon

1. 0:00 – 3:23

   Protocols Book; Dr. Gabrielle Lyon

   1. AHAndrew Huberman0:00

      (uptempo music) Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. I'm pleased to announce that my new book, which I've been working on for more than five years, is now available for pre-sale purchase. The book is entitled Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body, and within the book, you can find, as the name suggests, protocols for everything from how to improve and even optimize your sleep, for increasing your motivation and focus, for nutrition, that is specific nutritional guidelines to follow for health and performance, as well as exercise, stress control, your oral and gut microbiome, both of which are critical for brain and body health, as well as protocols for creativity and much more. Within the book, you'll also find the scientific basis, that is the mechanisms and specific studies that substantiate these protocols. And the book is designed to be incredibly easy to use, such that if you're suffering from a particular pain point in life, such as difficulty sleeping or excess stress or any number of different issues, that you can go to a specific chapter and protocol and begin to resolve that issue. So my goal in writing this book is that it not only be exceptionally practical, but that it also be extremely informative, that is teaching you a lot about the science that underlies the protocols that can improve your mental health, physical health, and performance. To order Protocols, go to protocolsbook.com, and there you will find links to any number of different vendors, and you can select the one that you prefer. Again, that's protocolsbook.com. My guest for today's episode is Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. Dr. Gabrielle Lyon is a medical doctor who did her clinical and research training at Washington University in St. Louis. She's an expert in geriatrics, in nutrition, in health, and longevity. And during today's episode, Dr. Lyon explains how if we are interested in our immediate and long-term health, muscle is the organ that we need to pay attention to. She explains how this is true for everybody, men and women alike, and that there are specific things that we all can and should do with our nutrition and our exercise in order to maximize the health of our muscular tissue. Now, in some cases, people will be interested in building more muscle, but it's important to point out that much of today's discussion is simply about improving the health of your muscular tissue and the specific ways to do that in order to support brain health, body health and movement, of course, as well as the health of every organ system in your body, again, placing a focus on improving muscular tissue itself as a way to improve all the organ and tissue systems of your body. Dr. Lyon explains the specific science and protocols that can be applied in your everyday life at the level of what you choose to eat or not eat, as well as how much of certain foods to eat or avoid, as well as specific training regimens, most of which take very little time, but they can vastly improve the health of your muscular tissue and therefore the health of your entire brain and body. I'm certain that by the end of today's episode, you will have a much more thorough understanding of what you can do to improve your immediate and long-term health and thereby potentially your lifespan, all of which are based on the most modern understanding from basic research, from clinical studies, and from practical application in the real world.

2. 3:23 – 7:40

   Sponsors: Maui Nui, Levels & Helix Sleep

   1. AHAndrew Huberman3:23

      Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is Maui Nui Venison. Maui Nui Venison is the most nutrient-dense and delicious red meat available. Now, I've spoken many times before on this and other podcasts and with several expert guests on this podcast about the fact that most of us should be seeking to get about one gram of high-quality protein per pound of body weight every day. Not only does that protein provide critical building blocks for things like muscle repair and synthesis, but also for overall metabolism and health. Maui Nui Venison has an extremely high-quality protein-per-calorie ratio so that you can get that one gram of protein per pound of body weight easily and without ingesting an excess of calories. Also, Maui Nui Venison is absolutely delicious. I love their venison steaks, their ground venison. I love their bone broths, and I love their jerky, which is extremely convenient when you're traveling. Those Maui Nui Venison jerky sticks have 10 grams of high-quality protein per stick at just 55 calories. While Maui Nui offers the highest quality meat available, their supplies are limited. Responsible management of the axis deer population on the island of Maui means that they will not go beyond harvest capacity. So signing up for a membership is the best way to ensure access to their high-quality meat. If you'd like to try Maui Nui Venison, you can go to mauinuivenison.com/huberman to get 20% off your membership or first order. Again, that's mauinuivenison.com/huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by Levels. Levels is a program that lets you see how different foods and activities affect your health by giving you real-time feedback on your diet using a continuous glucose monitor. One of the most important factors in both your short and long-term health is your body's ability to manage glucose, or what's sometimes called blood sugar. To maintain energy and focus throughout the day, you want to keep your blood glucose steady without big spikes or crashes. I started using Levels about three years ago as a way to understand how different foods and activities impacted my blood glucose levels, and it's proven incredibly informative for me in determining what food choices I make, when to eat, and when to time eating relative to workouts, sleep, et cetera. Indeed, using Levels has made it very easy for me to optimize my entire schedule and to understand where the flexibility in that schedule exists so that if I need to move a meal or I need to fast a little bit longer or if I need to work out fasted or not fasted, all of that can be adjusted while maintaining energy and focus and great sleep at night. If you're interested in learning more about Levels and trying a CGM yourself, you can go to levels.link/huberman. Levels just launched a new CGM sensor that is smaller and has even better tracking than the previous version. Right now, they're also offering an additional two free months of membership. Again, that's levels.link, L-I-N-K, /huberman to try the new sensor and two free months of membership.Today's episode is also brought to us by Helix Sleep. Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs. Now, I've spoken many times before on this and other podcasts about the fact that sleep is the foundation for mental health, physical health and performance. Now, one of the key things to getting a great night's sleep is to make sure that you sleep on a mattress designed specifically for your sleep needs, and that's what Helix Sleep mattresses are designed to accomplish. If you go to the Helix website and take a brief two-minute quiz, it asks you questions such as, "Do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach? Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night?" Maybe you know, maybe you don't know the answers to those questions. In any case, they'll match you to the ideal mattress for your unique sleep needs. For me, that turned out to be the Dusk Helix mattress. I started sleeping on a Dusk mattress about three and a half years ago and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had because it's customized to my unique sleep needs. If you would like to try Helix, you can go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take that two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that's ideal for your unique sleep needs. Right now, Helix is giving up to 30% off mattresses and two free pillows. Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to get 30% off and two free pillows. And now for my discussion with Dr. Gabrielle Lyon.

3. 7:40 – 11:25

   Skeletal Muscle & Longevity

   1. AHAndrew Huberman7:40

      Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, welcome.

   2. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon7:43

      (laughs) Thank you so much.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman7:45

      So great to have you here. You have a tremendous range and depth of expertise. You treat men, you treat women, you know a ton about exercise physiology, nutrition. You've done work in psychiatry, you've done work in geriatrics. You know so very much about how to get healthy and stay healthy, and today we're going to talk about all of that. To kick things off, I would love to dive into your take on this unique aspect of our physiology that most people, when they hear about, think about weight training or maybe bodybuilding or have some immediate reaction to, but you have a different stance on this incredible organ that we call muscle. So if you would just tell us how you look at this thing that we call muscle. In men, in women, in kids, in old people, young people. How should we think about muscle?

   4. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon8:47

      Well, first of all, muscle is the organ of longevity, and we've always thought about muscle, just as you said, when it comes to exercise, performance, mobility and strength, which by the way, all of those things are important and critical for life. But there's something very unique and special to skeletal muscle. First of all, it's an organ system. It's an endocrine organ. It is responsible for a large component of glucose disposal, roughly 80% of glucose disposal, and we all hear about these things like cardiovascular disease, type 2 diabetes, obesity. Largely, many of these metabolic diseases begin in skeletal muscle decades before.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman9:28

      Interesting.

   6. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon9:30

      Skeletal muscle is also an amino acid reservoir. It is the place that your body pulls from amino acids and that is, um, something that changes as we age, this idea of protein turnover, and we require healthy skeletal muscle. Of course, it's the body armor that we all know and it is really responsible for how we age. And by the way, I came to this understanding through, um, an experience I'd- I'd love to share with you. I did my fellowship in geriatrics and nutritional sciences, and at the time, we were looking at, you know, every fellow has to have a project, lucky for us, and we were looking at body composition and brain function. And there was one patient who I just adored. She was a mom of three kids and she'd always yo-yo dieted. We imaged her brain and her brain looked like the beginning of an Alzheimer's brain-

   7. AHAndrew Huberman10:23

      Hm.

   8. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon10:23

      ... and I thought to myself, and I felt very responsible, thinking, "Why was this woman, who was doing everything that we told her to do..." She was exercising, she was eating a low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet. Why was she so metabolically unhealthy? And I realized that at the end of the day, it wasn't that she was overfat. It was that she was under-muscled, and we spend decades and have spent decades trying to treat obesity when really what we need to be looking at is skeletal muscle.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman10:57

      Super interesting. We know that the brain is among the most metabolically active organs in the body, and muscle too one of the most metabolically active organs in the body. You'll probably tell me that one is more-

   10. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon11:09

       (laughs) .

   11. AHAndrew Huberman11:09

       ... active than the other. Which one is it?

   12. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon11:10

       M- mu- muscle's actually, quite frankly, not very metabolically active at rest.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman11:14

       Interesting.

   14. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon11:14

       For every pound of skeletal muscle, it might at rest burn 10 calories. Primarily burns fatty acids at rest.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman11:22

       Okay, I learned something new-

   16. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon11:23

       (laughs)

   17. AHAndrew Huberman11:23

       ... and I imagine many other people did as well.

4. 11:25 – 15:55

   “Under-muscled”, Leucine & Muscle Health

   1. AHAndrew Huberman11:25

      So this woman that was overweight.

   2. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon11:27

      Yeah.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman11:28

      Um, you looked at the problem through a different lens, that she's under-muscled. How does one go from being under-muscled to properly muscled and what is that? And as I say this, I realize that many of our listeners probably don't resistance train, or if they do, they may not want to carry a lot of muscle thinking that that would... They'd have to buy a new wardrobe. You know, certainly some of our listenership probably wants to gain more muscle, but is there-

   4. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon11:57

      Or a new wardrobe, I'm sure.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman11:58

      Or a new wardrobe.

   6. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon11:59

      Yeah.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman11:59

      Is there a way to view increasing muscle mass in a way that is compatible with kind of, um, I don't know, we- like traditional aesthetics or, um, with overall health in a way that's sort of distinct from, quote-unquote, "bodybuilding"? I mean, a- a- again, as soon as we talk about muscle, we think about slabs of meat added to different parts of our body and surely certain people probably want to add, um, muscle to certain parts of their body for aesthetic reasons, but...How should we think about muscle in the context of some of the to-dos, um, in terms of nutrition and exercise? And we'll segue into that. Again, how should we conceptualize this business of being under-muscled and getting to, I guess, what we call appropriately muscled? (laughs)

   8. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon12:42

      Uh, I think that that's a- it's a really good point, this idea of being appropriately muscled. So the truth is, I can't tell you how much skeletal muscle mass you should have for optimal health. I don't know how much skeletal muscle mass I should have for optimal health. We haven't done a good job in the literature and just as a population being able to track skeletal muscle and know what is optimal. We are really good at looking at body fat and we're really looking, good at looking at bone. But when it comes to skeletal muscle, DEXA is an extrapolation. So for example, we use DEXA as the gold standard, and I'm gonna come back to what we need to do to gain healthy skeletal muscle, but I think that there- it's really important to put things into perspective and a framework for how we think about things. We traditionally use DEXA. DEXA looks at bone and it looks at lean tissue collectively. Part of lean tissue is skeletal muscle mass. It doesn't determine the health of skeletal muscle mass. It doesn't determine anything about the quality of that tissue. It purely looks at lean tissue, which then we determine part of that lean tissue, maybe it's 40% is skeletal muscle. And that's important to understand as we begin to frame up the conversation as, "How much skeletal muscle should I have?" I have no idea, but what I can tell you is that if I were to look at your blood work and I saw something like elevated triglycerides or elevated insulin or elevated glucose, I would begin to understand that the health of your skeletal muscle isn't where it should be. And by the way, the health of skeletal muscle mass begins when we're young. This idea of sarcopenia, which for the listener or the viewer, the definition of sarcopenia, by the way, became a disease. It wasn't even classified as a disease till 2016.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman14:34

      Wow.

   10. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon14:35

       Yes. Wow. Which is very recent for a disease. It is a decrease in muscle mass and function. But interestingly, we don't necessarily know what one should have. So I think it's important to understand that when we're talking about the health of skeletal muscle, we're still pretty much in the infancy of understanding the trajectory of, of where it is and, and where it's going. So when we think about how we maintain the health of skeletal muscle, one of the things that I, I didn't mention is that skeletal muscle is a nutrient-sensing organ. It is uniquely sensitive to the quality of our diet, the quality of our diet defined as the quality of the amino acids that we're gaining, and that would be, for the listener, dietary protein. Skeletal muscle is sensitive to one of the amino acids leucine. And depending on the quality of the diet, meaning how much leucine that you're getting in any given meal, will then stimulate muscle health.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman15:33

       Not just muscle size, but muscle health.

   12. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon15:35

       Muscle health. And the way that we think about muscle health is by proxy, is this, this concept called muscle protein synthesis, which we can measure. And when we get a dietary protein amount, which is between 30 and 50 grams of high quality protein, it stimulates skeletal muscle.

5. 15:55 – 19:45

   Muscle Health

   1. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon15:56

   2. AHAndrew Huberman15:56

      So I love this idea of focusing for a bit on muscle protein health, because it divorces us from this conversation, at least temporarily, about muscle size, which of- I have to imagine is correlated, but it's a separate thing altogether. Actually, I should just ask the question, is it possible for somebody to have a lot of muscle but their muscle health is poor?

   3. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon16:17

      Yes.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman16:18

      Okay.

   5. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon16:18

      Yes.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman16:18

      Conversely, can somebody have a moderate to low amount of muscle but their muscle quality is high, or is that less common?

   7. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon16:25

      Um, well, the, the first thing that you said is, is absolutely something that we see, is that in an individual that carries a lot of, a lot of muscle and say they're inactive, there is a big discussion about how, um, heavy individuals will have more muscle mass. But what we have to recognize is the health of that skeletal muscle is fat deposition, can be visceral fat dep- deposition, fat around the organs, and it can be also fat infiltrate into the tissue, like, not to gross anyone out, a marbled steak.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman16:56

      Mm-hmm.

   9. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon16:56

      And that's exactly what can happen to unhealthy skeletal muscle, which then affects its ability to contract, which also affects... There's a ton of mitochondria in skeletal muscle. It affects the efficiency of skeletal muscle. So yes, someone can have potentially more muscle, but more unhealthy muscle.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman17:13

       Interesting. When you say, um, a marbled steak, I think at the extreme, uh, like a Wagyu-

   11. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon17:19

       Mm-hmm.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman17:19

       ... um, a raw Wagyu looks like there's as much white fat in it as there is red meat in it. Um, and it's a very different taste and texture. So that's what we're talking about. And my understanding is those cows, uh, don't move around much. Um, they're somewhat sedentary compared to, say, a free-range grass-eating cow. Is that right?

   13. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon17:38

       Yeah.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman17:39

       Okay.

   15. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon17:39

       That, that's absolutely correct.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman17:40

       Okay. So we want, we want quality healthy muscle, and then we can talk about muscle amount.

   17. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon17:46

       And then the other thing that I'll say about it is part of what defines muscle health is that flux, that movement. So if you were to think about skeletal muscle like a suitcase, and an individual was, say, going on a trip for four days but chooses to eat or pack for 30 days, uh, you can al-

   18. AHAndrew Huberman18:04

       We know these people.

   19. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon18:05

       Yes, I know-

   20. AHAndrew Huberman18:05

       Yeah.

   21. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon18:05

       I'm maybe one of them. I have my suitcase here. I was only coming in for a day, but I may have packed for four days. Not sure what I was doing, but, uh, that's besides the point. When an individual is overeating calories, overeating carbohydrates, I had mentioned earlier that skeletal muscle, one of its primary roles is glucose disposal. And I'm sure we're gonna get in the mechanisms of glucose disposal, whether it's-... um, insulin-dependent or insulin-independent, depending on if someone is moving or contracting that muscle. When an individual is eating food, carbohydrates, it gets stored in skeletal muscle as glycogen. Because, as we know, glucose at a high level is toxic to the body, so the body must move glucose out of the bloodstream, into the, the cells. Now, what happens is, is there becomes this stasis. So if an individual is inactive and not exercising, then that skeletal muscle becomes overpacked. Uh, skeletal muscle at rest burns primarily free fatty acids, which is interesting. Most people think about skeletal muscle as burning carbohydrates, but actually at rest, skeletal muscle burns fatty acids. As you can imagine, when that muscle is full and you are not exercising it, then the substrates have nowhere to go and it remains in the bloodstream. And that would be a sign of unhealthy skeletal muscle, which then loops back to what you see in blood work.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman19:33

       Elevated insulin, elevated blood glucose.

   23. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon19:35

       Yes. Elevated free fatty acids, elevated...

   24. AHAndrew Huberman19:37

       Mm-hmm.

   25. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon19:37

       ... branched-chain amino acids, all of these things which, again, as skeletal muscle, as the metabolic sink, have nowhere to go.

6. 19:45 – 25:14

   Tool: Carbohydrate Consumption & Activity, Glycogen

   1. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon19:45

   2. AHAndrew Huberman19:45

      So I'm starting to get a picture where, in order to have healthy muscle, we need to think about the feeding of that muscle, the providing of nutrients to that muscle, that is, as well as the use of that muscle. Let's start with the feeding or the providing of nutrients to that muscle. You mentioned that muscle at rest mainly burns fatty acids. It can store glycogen. How do we know when a m- muscle is full of glycogen? I mean, there's the, the visual, uh, representation of the muscle seems fuller as opposed to flatter, um, you know, but these are, um, not specific, um, or these are not, um, precise terms. You know, how much carbohydrate does it take to fill all the muscle of the body with glycogen? And then, what sorts of things perhaps deplete that?

   3. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon20:32

      I think it's a great question. We know that when we're talking about glycogen, the l- liver stores glycogen, maybe 100 grams, and then skeletal muscle, depending on your size, for example, um, you might store much more muscle glycogen, whether it's 4 or 500 grams, compared to someone who is my size.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman20:48

      And can we do the, the standard conversion of four calories per gram? So if the liver is 400 grams, you know, we could just say, okay, there's about 1,600 calories worth of...

   5. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon20:57

      Yes. Well-

   6. AHAndrew Huberman20:58

      ... of energy there? So if I, if I go out and I, uh, do some exercise and burn 1,600 calories over time, does that mean that the l- the liver is then completely depleted?

   7. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon21:07

      So, well, the liver will deplete in- through an overnight fast. So the liver's main- the liver maintains blood glucose, so skeletal muscle doesn't maintain blood glucose directly. The way that you would leverage, uh, muscle glycogen would be through exercise.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman21:22

      Mm-hmm.

   9. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon21:22

      The way in which you would deplete muscle glycogen would be through more, um, intensive exercise. And when you think about the foods and the way in which, you know, your original question is how would we know how much muscle glycogen or how much we need to refuel, I typically think about it as overall activity levels. So if someone is sedentary, then the current recommendation for carbohydrates would be 130 grams a day.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman21:48

       Per day?

   11. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon21:49

       Per day.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman21:49

       At four calories per gram?

   13. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon21:51

       At four calories per gram.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman21:52

       And is that, um, both simple and complex carbohydrates?

   15. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon21:55

       I-

   16. AHAndrew Huberman21:55

       Fibrous carbohydrates?

   17. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon21:56

       Yes. It would just be overall.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman21:58

       I-

   19. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon21:58

       Overall.

   20. AHAndrew Huberman21:58

       130 grams?

   21. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon21:59

       Yes.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman21:59

       If they're completely sedentary?

   23. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon22:00

       Yes.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman22:00

       So just a little bit of walking, getting up, going to the computer or to the bathroom or to the car, et cetera, but basically sedentary?

   25. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon22:06

       Yes. And the average American takes in 300 grams of carbohydrates a day. So more than double. And as you can imagine, this can distort metabolism. When we think about glucose disposal, the way in which I think about glucose disposal if an individual is sedentary is thinking about how many carbohydrates an individual can ingest at one time that would mitigate insulin response and would be able to be disposed of safely. And that number is between 40 and 50 grams of carbohydrates at a meal outside of exercise. The rest of carbohydrates would be earned through exercise, and through every hour of exercise, depending on the intensity, that could be between 40 to 70 grams, depending on how intense an individual exercises. And that would be safely disposed of in a two-hour period. I mean, when you think about an oral glucose tolerance test, that's a 75-gram load. You assume within two hours that that blood sugar regulation should come back to a, a normal range.

   26. AHAndrew Huberman23:16

       So at 40 to 50 grams of carbohydrate every two hours, does that mean that if somebody were to eat 40 to 50 grams of carbohydrates every two hours-

   27. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon23:26

       Which they shouldn't.

   28. AHAndrew Huberman23:26

       Which they shouldn't, right?

   29. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon23:28

       They don't have-

   30. AHAndrew Huberman23:28

       But because-
7. 25:14 – 31:57

   Tools: Nutrition for Healthy Skeletal Muscle, First Meal

   1. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon25:14

      So, you know, I think what we're really talking about here is how do we design a nutrition plan-

   2. AHAndrew Huberman25:18

      Mm-hmm.

   3. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon25:19

      ... for people to have healthy skeletal muscle?

   4. AHAndrew Huberman25:21

      Right.

   5. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon25:21

      And, you know, if I were to say, okay, what are we thinking about for the listener or for the people out there, they're thinking, "You know, I really want to have a healthy body composition and healthy skeletal muscle mass." The way in which they would do that is, number one, you have to prioritize dietary protein. So we're- we're talking about carbohydrates here, but carbohydrates shouldn't be the primary focus. Nobody has challenges getting carbohydrates in. 130 grams would be a safe recommendation if e- someone is overweight or struggles with type 2 diabetes or any of these other metabolic conditions. There is evidence to support a lower carbohydrate intake.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman25:59

      I mean, 130 grams is, you know, one little micro packet of pretzels on an airplane ride. (laughs) You know?

   7. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon26:05

      So tha- that actually has probably closer to 37 grams of carbohydrates.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman26:10

      Okay, good, so-

   9. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon26:10

      Not that I had a pretzel packet before or threw one at Rob on the way in-

   10. AHAndrew Huberman26:14

       Right.

   11. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon26:14

       ... but no.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman26:14

       Right. Uh, okay, so I'm way off there. Um, uh, so they have one of those, a bagel in the morning-

   13. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon26:23

       Mm-mm.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman26:23

       ... and, um, they shouldn't but they, uh, but they do, and then they have some, you know, pasta at dinner, and so most people are probably exceeding that 130 grams by a huge margin.

   15. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon26:33

       Yes, they are. And, um, there's a couple of things there that it's really important that you said, is that individuals, when we're thinking about designing a plan for skeletal muscle health, that first meal is most important. That first meal of the day having dietary protein will set you up metabolically for the rest of the day.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman26:51

       And when you say first meal, and we'll talk a little bit later about intermittent fasting and, you know, I, for instance, eat my first meal at usually 11:00 AM. It's just kind of how I'm wired. I've never wanted to eat breakfast first thing. I've forced myself to eat some eggs first thing in the morning from time to time and it felt fine. But do you recommend that people eat a true breakfast, like within a certain number of hours of waking up, for sake of muscle health? The... And met- and metabolic health.

   17. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon27:18

       When we think about, um, that first meal, I frankly don't care when you have it. One also has to understand that you're coming out of an overnight fast. If you are young and healthy, then the timing of that first meal likely doesn't matter because you are robust, your body is very efficient and capable to withstand, um, protein degr- degradation.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman27:43

       Mm-hmm.

   19. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon27:44

       It's able to withstand protein degradation and protein turnover, which is ultimately why we're eating. So that's one reason why we're eating. And, uh, we'll talk a little bit more about that. That first meal of the day, if you are young and healthy, the timing doesn't really matter. And I would say when it begins to matter is when you're older, when you are in your 60s. Fat... Continuing to fast may be a negative, a negative for muscle, muscle health. That first meal of the day is important because we know that when you get between 40 and 50 grams of protein that first meal of the day, you stimulate muscle protein synthesis. Muscle protein synthesis is by proxy what we use to measure, um, as a marker for overall muscle health. Now there's a lot of history here when we think about designing a, a meal plan. That first meal has between, we'll say, give it between 30 to 50 grams of dietary protein. That will do a number of things. Number one, it will stimulate skeletal muscle, what we would consider the health of skeletal muscle. It also will affect the brain. It'll improve satiation. You and I were talking previously. It releases, um, a handful of, uh, gut peptides.

   20. AHAndrew Huberman28:57

       Like glucagon, like peptide-1, which later-

   21. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon29:00

       GLP, yes.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman29:00

       ... we'll talk about-

   23. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon29:01

       GLP.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman29:01

       ... Ozempic, Mounjaro, but-

   25. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon29:02

       CCK-

   26. AHAndrew Huberman29:03

       Yeah, yep.

   27. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon29:03

       ... PYY, things that will affect appetite, uh, for that second meal. And this, there's some very interesting research out- out of Heather Lydie's lab and basically when she put individuals, younger, uh, adolescents on a meal of 30 to 40 grams of protein, they were much less likely to choose, say, donuts or something, uh, outside of what we would consider a- a healthy nutrition plan.

   28. AHAndrew Huberman29:30

       Later in the day or-

   29. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon29:31

       Yeah.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman29:31

       ... in the same meal?
8. 31:57 – 33:46

   Sponsor: AG1

   1. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon31:57

   2. AHAndrew Huberman31:57

      As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for more than 10 years now, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring this podcast. To be clear, I don't take AG1 because they're a sponsor. Rather, they are a sponsor because I take AG1. In fact, I take AG1 once and often twice every single day and I've done that since starting way back in 2012. There is so much conflicting information out there nowadays about what proper nutrition is, but here's what there seems to be a general consensus on. Whether you're an omnivore, a carnivore, a vegetarian, or a vegan, I think it's generally agreed that you should get most of your food from unprocessed or minimally processed sources, which allows you to eat enough but not overeat, get plenty of vitamins and minerals, probiotics and micronutrients that we all need for physical and mental health. Now, I personally am an omnivore and I strive to get most of my food from unprocessed or minimally processed sources, but the reason I still take AG1 once and often twice every day is that it ensures I get all of those vitamins, minerals, probiotics, et cetera, but it also has adaptogens to help me cope with stress. It's basically a nutritional insurance policy meant to augment, not replace quality food. So, by drinking a serving of AG1 in the morning and again in the afternoon or evening, I cover all of my foundational nutritional needs. And I, like so many other people that take AG1, report feeling much better in a number of important ways, such as energy levels, digestion, sleep, and more. So while many supplements out there are really directed towards obtaining one specific outcome, AG1 is foundational nutrition designed to support all aspects of wellbeing related to mental health and physical health. If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer. They'll give you five free travel packs with your order, plus a year's supply of vitamin D3K2. Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman.

9. 33:46 – 37:36

   Quality Protein, Animal & Plant-Based Proteins

   1. AHAndrew Huberman33:46

      It's great that we're focusing on muscle and then referring to obesity because I think so many people, virtually everybody thinks, "Okay, reduce body fat." How do you do that? You get the calories in, calories out equation in a certain direction. And by the way, I believe in the law of thermodynamics and-

   2. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon34:02

      (laughs) Yeah.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman34:02

      ... and, um, calories in, calories out. But by focusing on muscle protein synthesis and muscle health through the ingestion of quality protein early in the day-

   4. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon34:11

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman34:11

      ... I see that you're entering this all through a- through a different channel, but that the endpoints of reduced body fat, et cetera, as we'll get into later, um, one can still arrive there. So, just for practical purposes, what are some excellent sources of quality protein for that first meal?

   6. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon34:29

      Um, well, now the quality of protein is defined by the amino acid composition.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman34:35

      Mm-hmm.

   8. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon34:35

      And typically, animal-based proteins have higher quality. These are hard, fast biological numbers. The dietary protein in, say, um, a steak is very similar to the protein amino acid in skeletal muscle. So, the quality of the proteins like eggs, like whey protein, like beef, like poultry, those compositions are similar to the human body composition, so they contain the amino acids in the appropriate ratios for skeletal muscle health. Now, plant-based proteins have a different composition, and they have a composition obviously similar to plants. And one can get enough of the essential amino acids if the total caloric load of that protein is high enough. And I- I think that that's i- important to recognize because right now the American diet is 70% plant-based and we are- we seem to be moving more towards a plant-based diet and it is.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman35:35

      Is that right? I mean, I know there's sort of a movement toward that, you hear about plant-based, but, uh, so most people are not eating steak and eggs for breakfast, we know that.

   10. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon35:43

       (laughs) Well- well, most people, when I say 70% plant-based diet, I'm talking about, uh, refined carbohydrates, sugars, refined oils-

   11. AHAndrew Huberman35:52

       Cereals.

   12. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon35:52

       And when we think about it, so the 70% of, um, our diet comes from that, where 30% come from animal-based proteins, which contain a ton of nutrients like bioavailable zinc and selenium, B12. But when it comes to muscle health, one could, as long as they're thinking about making sure that the overall protein load is high enough in that plant-based protein. For example, um, one would not choose quinoa as a protein source. So, quinoa would... Six cups of quinoa would equal the same as one small chicken breast when it comes to an amino acid profile. So I think one has to be aware that plant-based proteins typically have carbohydrates that ride along with them.And, and that just becomes important for overall metabolic control when we think about total caloric load and total carbohydrates. Someone could use a rice pea blend of protein for that first meal. Uh, that would certainly be sufficient. Certainly, if someone is, um, geared towards a more plant-based diet and doesn't want to consume animal proteins, that's what I would use.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman37:02

       Is there any evidence that combining a high quality protein with carbohydrate in that first meal is more or less beneficial than having the protein alone?

   14. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon37:12

       That's a good question. I would say that we don't have evidence for that, that it would be more beneficial, because the question would be what- what is the benefit that we're looking for? If the benefit that one is looking for is diversity, then certainly. Because we know carbohydrates can have fiber or phytonutrients, if you're gonna combine it with berries. That could certainly be advantageous. But not necessary.

10. 37:36 – 41:19

    Dietary Protein Recommendations, Meal Threshold

    1. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon37:36

       What becomes interesting is when we think about designing a diet, does that second meal matter? And not to get too technical, but maybe I'll ... we could get a little technical here.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman37:46

       Sure.

    3. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon37:47

       It's that when you stimulate muscle protein synthesis, that will last about two to three hours. Now, the next thing one would think is, "Well, I know that I need a certain amount of protein for overall muscle health." The amount of protein for overall muscle health could be anywhere from one gram per pound ideal body weight to lower. And when we think about how we are designing a diet, we have to recognize that the current recommendations are the minimum to prevent a deficiency. The way in which diets are designed now, according to the RDA, is .8 grams per kg.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman38:23

       .8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight.

    5. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon38:26

       Which comes out-

    6. AHAndrew Huberman38:27

       Total body weight.

    7. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon38:28

       Yes. Which comes out to be .37 grams per pound. So if someone was 115 pound female, that current RDA would be 45 grams of protein.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman38:39

       Way below what we talked about earlier.

    9. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon38:41

       Right. And this is, these are very important concepts to understand the foundations of how we think about dietary protein. The current RDA, which is a minimum to prevent a deficiency, is based on nitrogen balance. Nitrogen balance ... And by the way, the recommendations for protein that were set f- in the '80s have not changed, which means one of two things. We haven't had new science come out, or we just haven't recognized the importance of protein. And I- I think that it's more likely the latter, that we have not yet recognized, even though there's a plethora of data. And I worked on some of these earlier studies, which, you know, I'll share. I even brought the numbers to make sure that I said them right, because, uh, you know, this is the Huberman Lab podcast (laughs) and-

    10. AHAndrew Huberman39:22

        Well, I've- I've made, I've made, uh, numerical errors before on the podcast.

    11. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon39:27

        (laughs) Oh.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman39:27

        Um, but great that you brought the numbers. We always try and correct any errors.

    13. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon39:30

        (laughs)

    14. AHAndrew Huberman39:30

        But, uh, great to be precise the first time, so thank you.

    15. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon39:33

        So, you know, when we think about how we design a diet for optimal muscle health is very different than how we design a diet for, um, again, just life. And the two are very different. The RDA for leucine, which is that essential amino acid, meaning we cannot make it, we must get it from the diet, is set at 2.7 grams per day.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman39:55

        That's a trivial amount.

    17. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon39:57

        That is a trivial amount, and-

    18. AHAndrew Huberman39:59

        2.7 grams total per day.

    19. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon40:00

        2.7 per day. And y- one must understand that this came from nitrogen balance studies, and typically those are young men, 18-year-old men. That does not support healthy aging or anyone that is struggling with obesity or any kind of chronic illness or anything. And so then when we begin to think, "Well, what do we actually need?" the evidence would support two to three times that amount, closer to nine grams of leucine per day.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman40:29

        And just to calibrate us, nine grams of leucine, which again is an essential amino acid we can only get from food, per day, what does that equate to in terms of the total amount of, let's say-

    21. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon40:41

        Mm.

    22. AHAndrew Huberman40:41

        ... egg or steak protein that one would need to eat in order to ensure that?

    23. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon40:45

        W-

    24. AHAndrew Huberman40:45

        Just rough- roughly.

    25. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon40:46

        Yes, yes. Wonderful question. So there's a meal threshold for skeletal muscle health, and that meal threshold is a minimum of 30 grams. Now, that would equal a four, four and a half ounce steak, um, dare I say six eggs, which is a lot of eggs at one time, or a scoop of whey protein. A scoop of whey protein might have 18 grams of protein and two and a half grams of leucine. Maybe you do a 25 gram whey protein shake. And that becomes important to understand, because it is a meal threshold amount.

11. 41:19 – 46:02

    Muscle Health & Aging

    1. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon41:19

       You know, we are talking about ... You know, the reason why I was so excited to come on this podcast is because I think that if we can correct our nutrition and we gear it towards skeletal muscle health, then we can change the trajectory of aging, and we can stop focusing on obesity and really focus on skeletal muscle health. But the only way that we're gonna do that is if we get this nutrition right, because skeletal muscle requires dietary protein. There's only two main ways that we can stimulate skeletal muscle, and that is through exercise, primarily resistance training, and dietary protein. And so when we think about how we design a diet, if you look back at the history, we have to recognize a handful of things. Number one, that these essential amino acids, primarily leucine, is necessary to trigger muscle protein synthesis, number one. Number two, that aging impairs the efficiency of muscle protein synthesis.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman42:12

       I see. So it's a runaway train. If you start getting sarcopenia, if there's obesity and other markers of aging ... I realize obesity can occur at young ages too, but muscle loss then basically you're als- you're losing muscle quality, AKA protein synthesis and other things, and as a consequence it makes it harder to increase muscle quality. So you have to short circuit this pretty early.

    3. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon42:33

       Um, yes, and I would even say that we talk about sarcopenia as a disease of aging, but I think that there is a youthful phenotype of sarcopenia. If we define sarcopenia as decreased muscle mass and strength, that can easily affect our youth. You know, we talk about health span, we talk about life span. There's also muscle span.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman42:53

       Hmm. Interesting.

    5. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon42:54

       And muscle span is this concept that, um, is really about the skeletal muscle health as we age and there's three primary components to that. That's understanding that skeletal muscle health begins very early on. And we're going to talk about, um, 'cause I know that there's parents. I have two little kids, so I- I want to talk about the amount of protein necessary for children, of course, and then as we think about this muscle span, there is early on, early age where you're laying down the foundation, where you're hopefully training, doing exercise, just doing movement. Being sedentary is a diseased state in and of itself, period, end of story. Being sedentary is not the opposite of activity. Being sedentary is in and- in and of itself a disease

    6. NANarrator43:37

       Hm.

    7. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon43:38

       ...om of inactivity. Then midlife, we have to maintain the tissue. We get a peak muscle mass in our 30s. We get a peak bone mass around the same time, and then that later half of life, we have to do everything that we can to maintain that tissue because of this decrease in efficiency of skeletal muscle. So skeletal muscle as a nutrient sensing organ can respond like youthful tissue and the way that it responds like youthful tissue from an amino acid perspective, just thinking about how we eat to maintain that, is that when we increase our dietary protein, so older individuals or individual- as they age require more protein to then stimulate mTOR.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman44:23

       So does that mean instead of eating 30 grams of protein per meal minimum, that people older than say 50, 60 should eat 40 or 50 grams of protein?

    9. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon44:33

       I would say that that's true.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman44:35

        Interesting.

    11. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon44:36

        And by the way, skeletal muscle will mount a youthful response. There's um, you know, this was, uh, the initial work was out of, uh, Bob Wolf's lab. He's an icon in the industry of protein. He's one of the, can I say grandfathers now? I mean, that's pretty embarrassing and when I think about Bob Wolf and Don Layman and these guys, you know, I trained with Dr. Donald Layman. You know, these initial studies that we think about and we take for granted dietary protein, we think, "Okay, well, the bros have always known this." But we have not.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman45:11

        Mm-hmm.

    13. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon45:11

        And when you are younger, there is a somewhat of a linear response. Let's say, um, a younger individual still growing, we'll just call them 10, 12 years old or- or my children, uh, I have a three and a four and a half year old, they will respond with five grams of dietary protein, 10 grams of dietary protein, 15 grams of dietary protein. V- (laughs) versus an older individual will not respond at all to that. However, that response can be augmented by increasing the dietary protein at that meal, so an older individual will respond like an- a younger individual by 30 grams of protein, 30 to- to 50.

12. 46:02 – 50:07

    Supplements & Creatine; Dietary Protein

    1. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon46:02

    2. AHAndrew Huberman46:02

       Later we're going to talk about supplements, but I'm very curious. Is there a place for supplementing leucine and other branch chain amino acids specifically? You know, I always assumed that supplementing with branch chain amino acids was kind of the unique domain of people, you know, post-exercise trying to build more muscle, but as you're telling me all this, it seems that adding leucine in powder form to a meal seems like it would be great for muscle health. Is that true?

    3. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon46:30

       Um, I would say that we do not add leucine alone.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman46:33

       Okay.

    5. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon46:33

       Because leucine, isoleucine, and valine go hand-in-hand. It would not be advisable to add a single amino acid. The amino acid levels are maintained in the blood. By adding more of one would have effects on the other. The way in which I would think about supplementing essential amino acids and/or branch chains would be if an individual is choosing to have a lower protein meal. I remember when I was in residency, the food choices were not very good and maybe I had two ounces of fish, which wasn't enough to bring me up to a threshold. That would be a place that I would add in branch chain amino acids or essential amino acids. That would bring someone's amino acid threshold up, but we have to understand everything that we're doing, we should be doing with a purpose. The idea of just sipping on branch chain amino acids or just adding amino acids would be the equivalent of putting a key into a car and trying to turn the car on, but not having any additional substrate. So you need the full spectrum of all the amino acids to affect skeletal muscle health.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman47:42

       Okay. Well, that's, um, reassuring to hear because I love the taste of scrambled eggs and steaks.

    7. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon47:47

       (laughs)

    8. AHAndrew Huberman47:47

       And I also like tuna and I also like chicken and I- I love all those, all those things. Um, and I have to imagine that as you mentioned before, there are other things in these quality animal proteins, like y- you mentioned, um, selenium. You mentioned other perhaps essential fatty acids and other vitamins that perhaps have something to do with what the animal ingested during its life that also benefit muscle. Is that true?

    9. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon48:15

       It- it is, and the- the big standout to me is creatine. We know that creatine at five grams of creatine will affect skeletal muscle, but 12 grams of creatine affects brain health. And there's a lot of interesting research coming out on, um, creatine and brain health.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman48:33

        C- can you remind me the rough, um, amounts of creatine in say, you mentioned a, let's just, I- I mean I must say a four and a half ounce steak feels, um, rather paltry to me.

    11. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon48:43

        (laughs)

    12. AHAndrew Huberman48:44

        Um, that's probably the size of a, of a...

    13. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon48:45

        Which that's a huge...

    14. AHAndrew Huberman48:45

        Yeah.

    15. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon48:45

        Which is a huge meal to me.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman48:46

        Right, um, right. So let's say a six ounce, let's be generous, a six ounce steak or, um, four scrambled eggs, I mean how much creatine are we talking? Eggs don't have much creatine, right?

    17. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon48:56

        Yeah. N- not much, and um, and I- I was just recently looking at this.... the amount of creatine in a pound of steak, you're gonna cringe, is- is something like two grams.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman49:05

        So it's not very much.

    19. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon49:06

        I- it's not very much. But when we think about eating foods as in a food matrix, what you're saying-

    20. AHAndrew Huberman49:12

        Mm-hmm.

    21. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon49:12

        ... is absolutely true there. It's interesting, we don't eat single nutrients. While we think about dietary protein as, um, a single nutrient and we think about carbohydrates, but what we really do is we eat mixed meals and when we think about that, the- the quality of the protein matters from a protein perspective, could you get plant-based proteins and animal-based proteins and could it be equal? Yes, it could. So I want to be very clear to say and have a very balanced perspective that we could get all of our dietary protein from plants, from plant-based sources. Uh, a few caveats there is that that RDA that I gave you earlier is based only on high quality proteins and that being the minimum to prevent a deficiency. If an individual was plant-based, they would require closer to 1.6 grams per kg, a higher amount of total protein if it's coming from plants. And that- that becomes important to understand.

13. 50:07 – 52:43

    Tool: Dietary Protein Recommendation; Gout & Cancer Risk

    1. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon50:07

    2. AHAndrew Huberman50:07

       Speaking of an ideal world, if you had a magic wand, uh, what-

    3. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon50:11

       I do.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman50:12

       ... (laughs) what would be the, um-

    5. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon50:13

       My kids think I do.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman50:14

       ... (laughs) I bet you do. Um, what would be the amount of protein that you would have everybody eat in terms of a number of grams per pound or kilogram of body weight?

    7. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon50:25

       One, that's actually, uh, an easy question. One gram per pound ideal body weight.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman50:29

       Total body weight, not lean body weight.

    9. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon50:30

       Ideal body weight actually-

    10. AHAndrew Huberman50:32

        Hmm.

    11. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon50:32

        ... where you want to be. If an individual is 200 pounds but- but would prefer to be 150 pounds, then I would have them eat towards their ideal body weight. There's no evidence that a higher protein diet is detrimental to kidney health, to bone health. And we use these terms loosely like a high protein diet when we have to recognize that 0.8 grams per kg is a low protein diet.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman50:57

        So where did the idea come from that if you eat, say, one gram of quality protein per pound of ideal body weight, that you're gonna get gout, you're going to have liver issues, you're going to have all sorts of issues? Wh- Where did that idea come from?

    13. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon51:13

        Uh, frankly, I'm not- I'm not sure. But the conversation around dietary protein has probably been the most controversial.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman51:20

        Why do you think that is?

    15. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon51:21

        Um-

    16. AHAndrew Huberman51:21

        I mean, we don't ... I mean, we're not trying to get political here, I'm just so curious.

    17. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon51:24

        I- I do have some ideas, but, uh, I- I won't share them.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman51:27

        Okay, that's fine.

    19. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon51:28

        But I- I do feel as if, um, nutrition is not just science. Nutrition is complicated because it's something that people tie emotion to, they tie religion to, they ... there's, um, a lot that goes into dietary protein and food recommendations in general.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman51:49

        But it sounds like we can safely say that if you eat one gram of protein per pound of ideal body weight, that you're not going to cause liver damage or get gout or increase your risk of cancer, right? My understanding is that even if it comes from red meat, there's no increase in risk of cancer. Is that right?

    21. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon52:03

        Well, um, here's what I would say to that. I would say that this idea about red meat and cancer, number one, we would have to even define what kind of cancers that we're talking about. There's many different types of cancers and there's many different causes. It would be important to understand what risk factors are and a primary risk factor to many cancers is obesity. The question then becomes, how do we design a diet that mitigates obesity? The evidence is also very clear that a more protein forward diet optimizes body composition. And you combine that with resistance training, and you will see a tremendous

14. 52:43 – 1:03:06

    Effects of Dietary Protein & Exercise on Body Composition

    1. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon52:43

       amount of change. I worked on some of these early studies, and I'll- I'll share with you some of the, um, early studies. And this came out of Don Layman's lab with the University of Illinois.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman52:52

       Both you and Layne Norton-

    3. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon52:53

       Layne Norton, yes.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman52:53

       ... both worked there?

    5. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon52:54

       Yes.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman52:54

       Did you overlap there?

    7. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon52:55

       We did.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman52:56

       Okay.

    9. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon52:56

       And while he was-

    10. AHAndrew Huberman52:57

        What was he like? No, I'm just kidding. Well-

    11. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon52:58

        So let's just say he sat in the back of the class and I sat in the front.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman53:01

        Okay. (laughs) All right, there you heard it, shots fired. Um-

    13. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon53:04

        Yeah, um, and all kidding aside, Layne is a very ... he's like my brother. We've known each other for 20 some years and I'd-

    14. AHAndrew Huberman53:09

        He's a very popular guest, former guest on this podcast, and a very spirited guy.

    15. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon53:13

        (laughs) And I'd like, I'd just like to say, I don't know why his skin looks that good, but, um, uh, whatever. So I worked on-

    16. AHAndrew Huberman53:20

        Love you, Layne.

    17. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon53:21

        (laughs) I've worked on ... Yes, we do. I worked on some of these early studies, and this was ... These studies were some of the first studies to come out about dietary protein, nutrition, and resistance training. In- in fact, to my knowledge and to, I think, the knowledge of many of my colleagues, this was the first study. And what it was, it was, um, a ... it was a 12-month study, 130 overweight men and women. So it was robust. And basically what they did is they had, um, two groups. One group was a food guide pyramid diet. So it was 55 grams of carbohydrates, a RDA of protein, which was 0.8 grams per kg, and 30% fat. 30% fat was in both groups. The second group was 40% carbohydrates. This is ... Remember the zone diet?

    18. AHAndrew Huberman54:12

        Mm-hmm.

    19. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon54:13

        40-30-30?

    20. AHAndrew Huberman54:14

        Yeah, I- I liked that diet.

    21. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon54:15

        Okay.

    22. AHAndrew Huberman54:15

        Yeah.

    23. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon54:16

        I mean, there's evidence-

    24. AHAndrew Huberman54:17

        Ish. I mean, I don't follow it anymore, but, you know, I tried it for a little while and-

    25. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon54:20

        And it works great.

    26. AHAndrew Huberman54:20

        ... it's doing all right. Yeah.

    27. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon54:21

        And there's some evidence to support that- that is a great ratio for people.

    28. AHAndrew Huberman54:24

        Coming off the low fat era of the late-

    29. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon54:26

        Yep.

    30. AHAndrew Huberman54:26

        ... 90s, the zone diet felt like, um, the best thing ever because it was like, oh, you know, you can enjoy some fats and wow, your satiety is improved and, um, you get stronger. You just feel better when you're ingesting some ideally quality fats.
15. 1:03:06 – 1:05:02

    Thermic Effects, Protein

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:06

       to ideal body weight, um, but still f- 500 calories or so below their current caloric needs to maintain body weight?

    2. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:03:13

       Yes. So this-

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:13

       So, eh, I've heard before that, um, when we eat protein, a certain amount of energy is required to metabolize that protein. Can that be translated as, you know, um, the caloric load of protein is not what it appears to be?

    4. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:03:27

       Yes, so-

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:27

       You know, if, let's say, uh, that 6-ounce steak ... I'm making this up and I'll probably get the numbers badly wrong, but if it's, um, you know, um, 6 ounces of steak and maybe that's of, let's just say of f- 450 calories or 500 calories, does that mean that only 400 of those calories are actually, quote-unquote, "utilized?"

    6. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:03:46

       (laughs) Um, what you're talking about is the thermic effect of food, the thermic effect of feeding. And that's the idea that certain macronutrients require a certain percentage of energy or the energy from those calories to be utilized. For fat, it's something like 3%. For carbohydrates, maybe it's 5 to 10%. And then for protein, it could be anywhere from 20 to I've seen even studies that are 30%.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:04:13

       Wow.

    8. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:04:14

       E- I know. But here is the thing. It's not that it's the energy that it takes. So if we were going to make it simple, we'll say 100 calories from straight protein. The body would net 80 calories because 20% of that energy is being used for what I would say is muscle protein synthesis. It's not the handling of nitrogen. It's none of that. And there's variations in the literature and the variations come from how an individual doses protein. So the dosing, depending if you've hit that minimum 30 grams, then you will see a more optimal utilization of protein. And I think that that's where that number comes from. It's actually the stimulation of muscle, because that is such an energetic process in and

16. 1:05:02 – 1:06:14

    Sponsor: InsideTracker

    1. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:05:02

       of itself.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:03

       I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, InsideTracker. InsideTracker is a personalized nutrition platform that analyzes data from your blood and DNA to help you better understand your body and help you reach your health goals. Now, I've long been a believer in getting regular blood work done for the simple reason that many of the factors that impact your immediate and long-term health can only be analyzed from a quality blood test. Now, a major problem with a lot of blood tests out there is that you get information back about metabolic factors and hormones and lipids and so forth, but you don't know what to do with that information. With InsideTracker, they make it very easy to know what to do with those numbers, because they have a personalized platform that allows you to see the levels of those metabolic factors, lipids, hormones, et cetera, and they give you specific directives that you can follow related to nutrition, behavioral modification, supplementation, and more that can help you bring those numbers into the ranges that are optimal for you. If you'd like to try InsideTracker, you can go to insidetracker.com/huberman to get 10% off their new membership program. InsideTracker membership offers significantly reduced prices on InsideTracker's comprehensive blood panels. Again, that's insidetracker.com/huberman to get 10% off.

17. 1:06:14 – 1:12:04

    Protein & Satiety, Insulin & Glucose

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:14

       Slightly tangential question, but I think meaningful given the context of what we're talking about. Why is it that if I eat a plate of scrambled eggs or a steak or a chicken breast and some vegetables, I feel very sated? Um, and unless I did some hard resistance training, I'm kind of good with that. But that if I eat any of those same foods and one piece of a baguette or one forkful of pasta, that then I want a lot more pasta and I want half the loaf of bread. Why is that? Is it the blood glucose response? Is there something about carbohydrate at the level of the mouth? I mean, what is it? Eh, you know, a former guest on this podcast, Dr. Diego Borquez, who studies gut-brain sensing, explained to us, and th- this is separate from the microbiome, that we have receptors all along the length of our gut, from our mouth out to the rectum, that-... are sensing the amino acids and are looking for those essential amino acids, but also sensing sugar and things like that, and signaling to the brain about how much more we should eat of a given food or forage for a given food. And I just have to say, at a psychological level, subjective level, there's something so fundamentally different about eating protein and vegetables or protein, fruits and vegetables, in the absence of starchy carbohydrates, and one adds starchy carbohydrates or eats starchy carbohydrates alone, and it's like, it's not a runaway train, but it's almost as if, like, it's never quite enough until there's a physical volume in the gut that it is, like, at threshold. And I don't think I'm alone in this. You look at the way people eat chips, you look at the way people eat pasta, you look at the way people eat risotto, and it's just different. I mean, there are a few, you know, freaks out there that probably eat two ribeye steaks, but for most people, a ribeye steak is, like, enough. One ribeye is enough. What is going on there? And, and feel free to speculate.

    2. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:08:02

       Yeah.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:02

       But is it amino acid sensing? And, because I think this is really important because I think as you're suggesting, if I may, that people prioritize protein from the first meal of the day and throughout the day. You know, I think people are imagining, "Well, gosh, what happens to my pasta? What happens to the bread? What happens to all these things?" And, you know, they're perhaps overlooking the fact that eating protein, vegetables, and maybe fruit, maybe a little bit of starch is just a s- a completely different experience than eating starch alone-

    4. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:08:35

       Yeah.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:35

       ... or starch com- in, in larger volumes.

    6. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:08:38

       There, uh, now, I'm gonna speculate here. The foods that we have access to are highly palatable, and potentially, we weren't necessarily designed to have access to those kinds of foods. Um, and this kind of moves into this idea of c- something called the protein leverage hypothesis.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:54

       Mm-hmm.

    8. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:08:55

       And the protein leverage hypothesis is that individuals will continue to eat, and this is one way people explain obesity, is that individuals will eat to satisfy an amino acid need. Now, your original question was when we eat, um, carbohydrates or risotto, uh, there is a component of blood sugar regulation that happens, so as you go beyond that 50 gram threshold, you tend to release more insulin. So there's an insulinogenic effect of dietary carbohydrates, which some people will experience as lower blood sugar. We've all had that experience where you're... I mean, not all, but you know, eat- eating your kid's macaroni and cheese and then you just can't stop, and then you probably feel very tired.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:41

       Mm-hmm.

    10. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:09:42

        There is an ebb and flow of blood sugar. The interesting thing about dietary protein is you will hear people say, "I'm gonna reduce my dietary protein because it's insulinogenic as well." So, dietary protein does cause a phase one insulin release, and that's preformed insulin in the pancreas. It is a component, uh, for muscle protein synthesis. But it is roughly 20% of the insulin response tha- and the same amount of carbohydrates. And when you eat a pro- a, a meal that is robust in dietary protein, your body will be able to then generate its own glucose. Roughly for every 100 grams of protein, your body will generate 60 grams of glucose over a period of time through the process called gluconeogenesis. And that is one of the benefits of a higher protein diet. You generate the glucose that you need.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:38

        And can that be converted into glycogen?

    12. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:10:41

        Yes.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:41

        Can... To repack muscle that you've-

    14. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:10:43

        Um-

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:43

        ... you know, depleted?

    16. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:10:43

        ... that is a good question. The process is very slow, so it's a, it's a much slower process than if you were to have your bread or risotto.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:51

        So you told us about essential amino acids. Are there any essential carbohydrates?

    18. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:10:56

        No. (laughs)

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:57

        There, there are essential fatty acids.

    20. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:10:59

        Yeah. There are. And, you know, it's interesting. We're talking about protein, and as, as I mentioned before, we simplified in the way that we talk about it as if it's one thing, but it's 20 different amino acids. These amino acids each have unique metabolic roles in the body. It's not interchangeable. For example, the essential amino acid... I will just pick a brain one. Uh, tryptophan for serotonin production, or threonine for mucin production in the gut, which helps the gut lining, or, you know, take your pick, phenylalanine. These, all of these essential amino acids do various things in the body. For skeletal muscle, the primary essential amino acid is leucine. And while, again, it is very complex in the way that we would think about how do we eat enough lysine or how do we eat enough methionine, it's not a great way to think about it 'cause then things become very complex and someone is like, "Well, what do I do?" But if you eat for the needs of skeletal muscle health, everything else falls into place.

18. 1:12:04 – 1:17:48

    Tool: Older Adults, Resistance Training & Dietary Protein

    1. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:12:04

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:04

       My mom is 79 years old. She's relatively lean, um, by my read. I haven't, um, seen her DEXA results, but e- she's probably had some muscular atrophy. She does yoga, she walks, she gardens, um, and seems to be in good health, I think. Thank goodness. My guess is she's lost some muscle in the last decades. If she were to increase the amount of protein, quality protein that she eats, especially in that first meal of the day, um, would the health of her muscle and her muscle mass change even if she does no resistance exercise? I mean, I suppose she gets a little bit of resistance training from the yoga, but I haven't been to a yoga class with my mom ever.

    3. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:12:50

       You guys aren't doing headstands.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:51

       Uh, d- definitely not doing headstands. She's actually an... You know, she's, she's very mobile and very sharp and, um, uh, very vivacious. Um, but I don't think she's doing the, the more, you know, advanced inversion things at yoga.

    5. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:13:06

       (laughs)

    6. AHAndrew Huberman1:13:06

       So let's assume that, um, she's doing some moderate exercise three, three or four times a week, but not training with weights. If somebody like her or a, you know, a younger male that has a similar pattern of behavior, you know, desk worker for the most part, uh, jogs a little bit, gets on the, on the recumbent bike or whatever it is, but is not, um, doing resistance training-...Increases their quality protein intake, um, throughout the day and especially at that first meal ensuring f- at least 30 and up to 50 grams of intake, what changes are likely to happen even without resistance exercise?

    7. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:13:38

       Um, well, the first thing is that if she is eating a sub-amount of protein... Let's say she's eating the RDA of protein, and the average woman eats around 68 grams of protein a day. 40% of women over the age of 60 are deficient in protein. They're eating below the RDA.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman1:13:57

       And what's happening to their body there? Is their body robbing their existing skeletal muscle of amino acids in order to supply what the brain and other organs need?

    9. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:14:04

       In part. In part. One of the things that happens with aging is the body, the whole body protein turnover, becomes, um, less efficient, so the body is turning over roughly 300 grams of protein a day.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:20

        That's a lot of turnover.

    11. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:14:21

        It is a lot. It is a lot of turnover.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:23

        Three hundred grams of protein-

    13. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:14:25

        Correct.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:25

        ...of turnover.

    15. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:14:25

        Yes. And muscle only accounts for maybe 25% of turnover. An individual might eat... An average female, like your mom, is eating probably around 68 grams of protein a day.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:38

        Yeah, if I'm lucky. She's, she's not big on, on, um, beef or chicken.

    17. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:14:43

        And listen, sh-

    18. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:43

        Mostly eggs and a little bit of fish and lots of vegetables and fruits but maintains, again, a r- like, a healthy, lean body weight.

    19. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:14:49

        And, and that is wonderful 'cause-

    20. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:50

        Mm-hmm.

    21. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:14:50

        ...she's balancing her lower protein intake with physical activity. Remember, there are two main ways to stimulate skeletal muscle and that's through resistance training, which one would argue she is doing, and/or dietary protein. But when we think about muscle protein synthesis, there's really four inputs. There's resistance training. There's energy.

    22. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:11

        Mm-hmm.

    23. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:15:12

        There's insulin, growth hormones, and then there's leucine.

    24. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:16

        Mm-hmm.

    25. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:15:17

        When you are younger, your body is driven by more of the anabolic hormones, which is one reason why we believe that a younger individual can get away with 5 to 10 grams to 15 grams of dietary protein.

    26. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:29

        Because their, um, levels of testosterone and/or estrogen are driving protein synthesis in a way that lets them offset any dietary deficiencies?

    27. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:15:38

        It, it... Well, that their body is just highly anabolic. They're growing. They're growing up. They're growing. When an individual like your mom, who has now stopped growing, the body becomes much more reliant on leucine and resistance training because the main pathway that these things go towards is, is something called mTOR, mammalian target of rapamycin. The influence on those pathways changes as we age, so the lever in which you pull changes and the importance of that lever changes. So the, the best thing that your mom could do to maintain skeletal muscle... So why and what happens to skeletal muscle as we age? Skeletal muscle, if it is not contracted and utilized, gets this fat infiltration, mitochondria changes, protein turnover changes. It becomes less efficient at sensing amino acids. There's a decrease in capillary profusion, which is why, one reason why exercise is so important. In order for her skeletal muscle to respond like a younger muscle, what she should do is do some kind of resistance training and then add in some kind of dietary protein because when we think about the protein hierarchy, the amount of protein in a 24-hour period matters the most. Protein hierarchy, um, again, closer to one gram per pound ideal body weight. The evidence would say 1.6 grams per kg. I'll never forget, uh, when the ProAge study came out. I can't believe I've been out of fellowship that long, but the ProAge study was a position paper, and it talked about how the current recommendation for dietary protein is too low and that to support healthy aging, you need 2.5 grams of leucine, uh, roughly 30 grams of protein, and, um, you know, an increase in total overall dietary protein. And this was really the first position statement, and that came out, gosh, I think 2010, yet we haven't changed any of the recommendations for the general population yet. So, in order for your mom's muscle to respond, if you compound those two things, then she will maintain, with activity, the health of her skeletal muscle.

19. 1:17:48 – 1:21:36

    Dietary Protein, mTOR & Cancer Risk

    1. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:17:48

       You mentioned something else. An individual shouldn't just load protein. Loading extra protein and not moving is not a good idea because of protein's effect on mTOR throughout the body. So we talked about mTOR, which is mechanistic target of rapamycin in skeletal muscle, in the brain, in the pancreas. This is a, um, a protein complex that you just don't want stimulated all day long.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:16

       Yeah, for sake of, um, cancer risk?

    3. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:18:18

       Yes. Yes.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:18

       As, uh... My understanding is that mTOR is very highly expressed in all cells of the body early in development and throughout growth. In fact, it's expressed in the cells I spent my career working on, the retinal cells. And then over time, it drops off, and it's remarkable how studies where mTOR is replaced into cells allows them to essentially look like and behave like young cells again, even replacing some regenerative capacity. This is work of a guy named Zhigang He at Harvard, uh, Children's Hospital at Harvard Medical School. But what one always observes, and we've done these experiments in my lab, is that when you increase mTOR by any number of different, you know, um, ways, you know, molecular chicanery and things like that, that the cells grow enormous. And the concern is always that if you increase mTOR, that you are going to bias any preexisting tumors to proliferate as well. Is that right?

    5. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:19:13

       Um, I think that, that yes, compo- yes, um, it is. And we have to recognize that mTOR stimulation is different in different parts of the body, just as you mentioned. And so, um, skeletal muscle is uniquely sensitive to contraction, and it's through this biochemical process called Red1. And-... when you contract skeletal muscle, it inhibits RED1, which then, a- again, there is this, uh, phosphorylation of mTOR and muscle protein synthesis happens. That is unique to skeletal muscle and when individuals will say, this is, will be a common discussion that you hear in the spaces that, "Well, I don't want to increase my dietary protein because somehow that is going to cause cancer." And that is not true, that is a very myopic thought process.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman1:20:00

       Mm-hmm.

    7. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:20:01

       That would be the same as saying, "Resistance training, which also stimulates mTOR, is going to cause cancer."

    8. AHAndrew Huberman1:20:06

       Right, I completely agree with you. I think, um, it's interesting that mTOR, which in mice is mammalian target of rapamycin, um, that word rapamycin might, you know, um, prick up some people's ears. There are some people out there, and by the way, I'm not recommending this, that take rep- rapamycin as a way to inhibit mTOR in hopes of extending their lifespan. Uh, there are some animal studies that support this, there's, um, growing interest in this and, um, so much so that some people are willing to take rapamycin. Um, by that logic, rapamycin would perhaps inhibit muscle growth, muscle health, that's a whole other discussion we'd have to get Attia and a few, uh, Matt Kaeberlein, a few other folks here, um, and maybe we will with you to, to discuss that. But the point being that I agree completely that we can't just say something that increases mTOR in muscle is also going to increase cancer. That these molecules like mTOR have distinct roles in distinct tissues-

    9. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:21:06

       Correct.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman1:21:06

        ... at distinct time points throughout the lifespan and, as you mentioned, ingesting quality protein can increase muscle protein synthesis by way of mTOR and other pathways.

    11. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:21:16

        Which it should. Which it, which it should.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman1:21:16

        Right, as well as resistance training.

    13. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:21:18

        Yes.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:21:18

        And I don't think anyone in the longevity space would suggest that resistance training is a bad thing.

    15. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:21:24

        That's right.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman1:21:24

        And yet we know it's increasing mTOR. So there's a little bit of a, of a contradiction in that field, just if one stands back from it and says, "Well wait, you want to take rapamycin to block mTOR but you also want to do resistance training to stimulate mTOR? Which one is

20. 1:21:36 – 1:24:00

    Muscle Span & Aging, Sedentary Behaviors

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:21:36

       it?"

    2. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:21:36

       Mm-hmm. Yeah, a- and we have to recognize that the efficiency of the stimulation declines as we age and the way that we overcome that is, again, this idea of muscle span. How do we continue to go through life and design a diet that we know will be more dependent on dietary protein and movement as we age? Because the balance between the two changes. When you're young, you could eat the Twinkie diet, probably look at a weight and grow. Age is the great equalizer. You know, I trained in geriatrics and I am telling you, age is the great equalizer. And creating protocols and habits put into place to allow you to age well is everything. And there is so much confusion in the nutrition space that if we can pull back and recognize, well number one, science is a, is a evolving field and it's the, you know, it is a science of uncertainty.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:22:29

       Mm-hmm.

    4. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:22:29

       But there are foundational principles that we can put into place and one of those foundational principles is skeletal muscle health, muscle as the organ of longevity must be supported and there are very few ways in which we can do that. You know when you think about the metabolic implications of skeletal muscle as glucose disposal unit, these diseases of aging really begin in skeletal muscle before you see any outward signs of obesity, before you see any outward signs of, um, anything that would indicate you are unhealthy. It's kind of like osteoporosis as the silent disease. Skeletal muscle health is also that way and in fact there's some very, uh, pivotal work out of Yale and they looked at young, healthy college students. You know, as a college student you'll do anything for a couple bucks, right? If they pay them. Um, and these individuals were sedentary and what they f- but they were healthy, lean, and what they saw was skeletal muscle insulin resistance just by being inactive. Can you imagine as you continue and how do we define inactivity now? What is it, less than 5,000 steps?

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:23:41

       Per day.

    6. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:23:42

       Per day.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:23:43

       Wild. I mean-

    8. GLDr. Gabrielle Lyon1:23:43

       And there's multiple way... I mean, think about it. We were designed as humans to be very mobile and so now we live in a world that what we think about as sedentary behavior is something innocuous and, and not a big deal. It is in a, it is a disease state.

21. 1:24:00 – 1:29:21

    Mixed Meals, Protein Quality, Fiber

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:24:00

       So, I feel like you've made an excellent case for the ingestion of sufficient amounts of quality protein each day, especially starting with that first meal of the day. Um, and just to underscore the suggestion that I heard, it was aim for one gram of quality protein per pound of target body weight. So if somebody weighs 200 pounds and they'd like to weigh 180 pounds, try and get 180 grams of quality protein per day divided up into meals that include somewhere between 30 to 50 grams of protein per meal.

Episode duration: 3:03:36