How to Find Your True Purpose & Create Your Best Life | Dr. James Hollis

1. 0:00 – 2:14

   Dr. James Hollis

   1. AHAndrew Huberman0:00

      Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. (instrumental music plays) I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. James Hollis. Dr. James Hollis is a Jungian psychoanalyst and author of more than 17 books about the self, relationships and how to create the best possible life. Some of the notable titles and topics of those books include Creating a Life: Finding Your Individual Path, as well as The Eden Project: In Search of the Magical Other, which, as the name suggests, is about relationships. He has also written about how to access our most resilient self in the book entitled Living Between Worlds: Finding Personal Resilience in Changing Times. During today's discussion, Dr. Hollis teaches us what questions we need to ask of ourselves on a regular basis in order to best understand who we really are and what we most desire at the level of vocation, romantic relationships, friendship, and family, and indeed, in relationship to life's journey. What you'll quickly realize during today's discussion with Dr. Hollis is that while, yes, he is trained as a Jungian psychoanalyst, he is also very firmly grounded in practical tools. That is, he teaches us the simple and yet practical tools that we can each and all apply on a daily basis in order to make sure that we are staying on our best path. We discuss how family dynamics that we grew up in, as well as trauma and attachment styles, combine with our unique gifts, and indeed our shadow side as well, in order to drive us down particular trajectories in life that sometimes lead us where we want to go, but other times lead us astray, and when they do, how to get back on track. Today's conversation with Dr. Hollis is truly a special one in that he rarely does podcast appearances. In fact, we traveled to him to record this podcast. That's how motivated I was to be able to sit down with him, because I'm familiar with his many books and his incredible teachings. But I really wanted to get his knowledge collected in one format, in one place. And what I can promise you is that by the end of today's podcast, you will be thinking differently about yourself, about the people in your life, and indeed, life itself.

2. 2:14 – 5:57

   Sponsors: Mateina, Joovv & BetterHelp

   1. AHAndrew Huberman2:14

      Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is Mateina. Mateina makes loose-leaf and ready-to-drink yerba mate. Now, I've long been a fan of yerba mate as a source of caffeine, in part because of its high antioxidant content, as well as its ability to elevate glucagon-like peptide 1, or GLP-1, which leads to a slight appetite suppressing effect, as well as its ability to regulate blood sugar and possible neuroprotective effects. I also just happen to love the way that yerba mate tastes. I'll sometimes drink it hot by pouring hot water over the loose-leaf yerba mate, and I'm particularly fond these days of drinking the zero-sugar cold brew Mateina yerba mate that I helped develop. Now, I realize that there are a lot of different brands of loose-leaf and canned and bottled yerba mate out there, but the reason I like Mateina the most is, first of all, it has absolutely the best taste of all of them. Secondly, they only use organic ingredients, and thirdly, because they offer low-sugar and zero-sugar varieties. If you'd like to try Mateina, you can go to drinkmateina.com/huberman. That's spelled drink M-A-T-E-I-N-a.com/huberman. Right now, Mateina is offering a free one-pound bag of loose-leaf yerba mate tea and free shipping with the purchase of two cases of their cold brew yerba mate. Again, that's drinkmateina.com/huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by Joovv. Joovv makes medical-grade red light therapy devices. Now, if there's one thing that I've consistently emphasized on this podcast, it's the incredible impact that light, meaning photons, can have on our mental health and physical health. Red and near-infrared light has been shown to have profound effects on improving cellular health, which can help with faster muscle recovery, boosting healthier skin, reducing pain and inflammation, enhancing sleep, and much more. What sets Joovv apart is that it uses clinically effective wavelengths, emits a safe and effective dose of red and near-infrared light, and most importantly, offers the only true medical-grade red light panel available. I personally try to use the handheld Joovv Go unit, as it's called, every day, and especially when I'm on the road traveling. If you'd like to try Joovv, you can go to joovv.com/huberman. That's J-O-O-V-V.com/huberman. Joovv is offering an exclusive discount to Huberman Lab podcast listeners with up to $400 off Joovv products. Again, that's joovv.com/huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp. BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out online. Now, I've been going to therapy for well over 30 years. Initially, I didn't have a choice. It was a condition of being allowed to stay in school. But pretty soon I realized that therapy is extremely valuable. In fact, I consider doing regular therapy just as important as getting regular exercise, including cardiovascular exercise and resistance training, which of course I also do every week. The reason I know therapy is so valuable is that if you can find a therapist with whom you can develop a really good rapport, you not only get terrific support for some of the challenges in your life, but you also can derive tremendous insights from that therapy. Insights that can allow you to better not just your emotional life and your relationship life, but of course, also the relationship to yourself and to your professional life, to all sorts of career goals. In fact, I see therapy as one of the key components for meshing together all aspects of one's life and being able to really direct one's focus and attention toward what really matters. If you'd like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month. Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman. And now for my discussion with Dr. James Hollis.

3. 5:57 – 13:59

   Self, Ego, Sense of Self

   1. AHAndrew Huberman5:57

      Dr. James Hollis, such a honor and a pleasure to sit down with you. I'm a huge fan of your writing and I'm excited to talk to you today.

   2. JHDr. James Hollis6:06

      Thank you, Andrew. It's a privilege to be with you.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman6:07

      Mm-hmm. Thank you.Let's talk about the self. This is something that I think people occasionally wonder about, you know?

   4. JHDr. James Hollis6:16

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman6:17

      Who, who am I? We wake up every day, we have some stable-

   6. JHDr. James Hollis6:20

      Mm-hmm.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman6:20

      ... representation of who we are and our name, most of the time. And we develop a self, a story-

   8. JHDr. James Hollis6:28

      Mm-hmm.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman6:28

      ... based on what we know about our parents, our siblings, our life. From the perspective of Jungian psychology-

   10. JHDr. James Hollis6:37

       Mm-hmm.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman6:38

       ... maybe psychology generally, how should we think about ourselves?

   12. JHDr. James Hollis6:42

       Well, first of all, the idea of the Self with a capital S, to distinguish it from the ego consciousness, that is to say, my conscious presence as you and I are talking right now, um, is a transcendent other. It's a mystery. It's, um, essentially governed by our instincts. You know, it's nature seeking its own expression and its own healing. What I've seen in terms of the activity of the self through the years, it has two agendas. One, healing when injured, and secondly, expressing itself, in the same way that the acorn becomes the oak tree, so to speak. Um, now the ego, of course, is that little scintilla of energy that we... begins to cluster. We're born without an ego, but then there's this several shards of experience between the me and the not me that slowly accumulate almost in tidal pools, so that I begin to differentiate myself from the other, my mother, let's say, or my father, or the object that is there. And you're right. We are an animal that seeks to understand as part of our adaptation to the world. And so we are narrative animals. We create stories about it, and our stories rise out of what we're experiencing at the moment. So, you can see why a person born into a certain culture or a certain family of origin with its style of relating, or dis-relating as the case may be, uh, becomes the ground for defining that person's sense of self. So, it's important to distinguish between the Self and one's sense of self. The sense of self is who I think I am. In any given moment, that's very fluid, of course. Now we have all kinds of internal clusters of energy. There are called complexes, a term that Jung popularized, and complexes are, uh, splinter personalities, he said. So, a person might say, "Why did I get so upset yesterday? What- what came over me?" Or, "I don't know what I was thinking when I made this important decision." And that's our recognition that we were in an altered state at that moment, that it... that something within us had been triggered, had sufficient energy to come up, usurp ego consciousness, and take it over. Actually, the term that Jung used in, in German meant, uh, possession. It's a state of psychic possession temporarily. You know, we, we joke that lovers are fools or lovers are blind. So, we know that people are in a certain... they're caught in a certain projection onto the... to the other. And, you know, that's ultimately gets, um, you know, (laughs) resolved into some sort of reality through time and, and experience with that individual. But in that state of being, one senses that one's making the right decision, and no one wakes in the morning and says, for example, "Well, today, I think I'm gonna do the same stupid counterproductive things I've done for decades," but there's a good chance we will. Why? Because we have certain clusters of energy in us that are regularly triggered. When triggered, they catalyze a response in the ego that enacts that program. So, it affects our body, it affects our, our script, and of course it affects our, our perception of self and world. So, you know from the standpoint of, of therapy, one of the things we try to do is suggest to people, "You're not what happened to you." Because one of our tendencies is to internalize whatever's happening to us. And thinking of that defines us. Of course, the younger, the more less formed we are, uh, the more we're likely to be defined by poverty or by disease or by alcoholism or, or by sexism or, or whatever the social constructs are into which we're born, as well as the psychodynamics of the family of origin. So, in those circumstances, uh, we all have a provisional sense of self. And if you have a culture that says, "This is who you are, this is what your, your, your orders are, your, your marching orders, here's your script," and the more authoritarian the culture or, or the more traumatic one's environmental situation and family of origin, the more likely I'm gonna be reacting to that. So, when I've had an experience, I'm either going to repeat it, or I'm gonna try to run from it, or maybe I'll be spending my life trying to treat it in some way that I'm not aware of. Um, this activates many people into the healing professions, by the way, whether it's clergy, nursing, therapy, et cetera, et cetera. That that's often a sensitive child in the family who feels, "I have to try to stabilize my environment in order to, uh, sort of get things back to a, a, a normal state," whatever that might be. "So that then it can be there for me." But of course, that never quite happens. You know, the child can't fix a parent, you see? And so many people in the helping professions, um, are, are driven there by a powerful internalized message which becomes their sense of self. So, it's a long-winded way of saying there's a distinction between the Self, which is the natural organic development of this organism. You know, as we're speaking, it's growing our toenails, digesting our breakfast, mentating, emoting, and so forth. Most of that's autonomous activity.It's kind of like the centipede. You know, you congratulate the centipede on how well he coordinates all of his legs and then he thinks, "Well, should I move this leg or this leg or this?" And he's immobilized. These are not functions that we govern consciously, although we can interrupt them consciously. But something is there taking care of us. It's an organic unity. And that's what Jung meant by the S- by the Self, capital S. Our sense of self is a different matter. And so one of the things that I've tried to emphasize in therapy is you're not what happened to you, because we tend to be bound to our story that says either that's who I am, that's what I'm defined by, or I'm spending my life trying to differentiate myself from that, get away from that perhaps. So, um, again, our sense of self is very provisional, it evolves, and- and in any given moment, there may be something in the unconscious that's, um, triggered. And of course, the problem with the unconscious, it's unconscious, so I don't know that it's happened. It's, I- I have the unconscious, uh, triggered, it has the power to rise, take over provisionally, spin out its program, and then after a while, you know, it recedes back into the unconscious. And as I said, sometimes people will stop and say, "Well, I wonder what was behind that decision," or, "Why did I choose that path?" Or, "What in me is blocking me from doing what I know is right for me?" You know, as, uh, Paul said in the Letter to the Romans, "Though I know the good, I do not do the good." Well, why not? Well, he saw it as in- insufficiency of will, but we know it's more than that. We- we know that there are unconscious factors at work that have a certain autonomy. And the more unconscious they are, the greater their autonomy will prove to be.

4. 13:59 – 21:56

   Unconscious Patterns, Blind Spots, Dreams; Psyche & Meaning

   1. JHDr. James Hollis13:59

   2. AHAndrew Huberman14:00

      If they are unconscious and they're driving us sometimes into states, other times traits, I mean, and that's, uh, perhaps an interesting discussion in and of itself is, you know, when it... what's the difference between a state of mind and body and a trait? But if it's unconscious, uh, what chance do we stand to overcome these things? I mean, wh- where... how does the awareness come about? Can we do it on our own? Does it require reflection from a trained professional? And if so, um, you know, when we become conscious of something, does that immediately flip a switch or does it require constant returning to, um, you know, seeing and, uh, for- you know, forcing the- the unconscious to become conscious over and over again?

   3. JHDr. James Hollis14:49

      Mm-hmm. Sure. Well, those are great questions. Um, fi- first of all, (laughs) again, none of us rises saying we're going to be counterproductive today, but we will because of the autonomy of those clusters of energy within us. Now, I've said to many people who've asked that question, "Well, start with your own life. Look to the patterns that you have." A pattern is an indication of some cluster of energy, whether it's outward or whether it's inward, that you're carrying with you. Um, and we don't do crazy things. We always do logical things if we understand that- what we're in service to intrapsychically. I'll give you an example. I was working in a closed ward of a hospital many decades ago, and there was a fellow repeatedly trying to break a window, and people were assuming he was trying to escape or get a shard of glass for some nefarious purpose, and no one bothered to ask him why he was doing this. And he said he had the delusion that he was, first of all, in a locked ward, so he was caught in a, you know, a n- non-voluntary situation, and in his psychosis, he felt that, um, somebody was pumping air from the room. Now, if this door was locked and the air is being pumped out of this room, the most logical thing we would do is break through a window or break down the door. So, his behavior was logical based on the premise. Now, the premise is often inaccurate or tied to one place but gets extrapolated to another one somewhere else, and- and then we are responding logically to that- that premise. So, you start with your own life, particularly the places where you find these are self-defeating behaviors or behaviors that are hurtful to you and someone else, and then you say, "Since that's not my conscious intention, and yet there it is as part of my history, then I have to say, all right, what is it within me that, you know, has the kind of power to take over my ego consciousness?" Now, just to back off for a moment here, I- I think we're only conscious in the ego dealing with reality, uh, a few times during the course of a day. My favorite analogy is when you get up in the morning and you step in the shower, it's too hot or too cold, so you change the water temperature. Well, that's the ego in its proper function. It's being adaptive to its reality. It's being protective at that moment. It's achieving the optimum situation for you. But from the rest of time on when that same ego is flooded by other material, some of which is conscious, who gets the kids today after school, how do I get to the work on time, et cetera, but underneath that are other drivers that have to do with fear-based responses or adaptive responses that, um, were perhaps once protective, but later... You know, we weren't born with them, but we acquired them along life's highway. So, what was once protective often becomes constrictive later and- and creates those patterns. So, the f- number one, you start with your patterns. Um, secondly, (laughs) and everyone sort of laughs at this, but there's a certain truth to this, you might talk to those around you, such as your spouse or your closest partner or- or your children, and ask them about what they see in us, if you can bear to hear what they have to say.... and to say, "Where is it you see me being hurtful to myself or others?" Or, "Where is it that I get in your face in an inappropriate way?" Uh, and they will usually have something to inform us with. Thirdly, we pay attention to our dreams because we don't choose to dream, but sleep research tells us that we average about six dreams per night. That's a lot of activity. Nature doesn't waste energy, it's processing something. And it's not just processing. If we pay attention over time, um, you begin to realize it has a point of view. Another way of putting this is the psyche, which is the term I would use here, and that's the Greek word for soul by the way, the- the- the psyche, you know, has its own intentionality. It's omnipresent and it's commenting, and it comments in terms of our feeling function. You don't choose your feelings. Feelings are autonomous responses to what has happened. You can repress them, suppress them, anesthetize them, project them onto others, but you are, uh, in the end, um, you know, a creature that has an autonomous feeling response. Secondly, we have energy systems. If I'm doing what's right for me, the energy is there, the flow is there. We can mobilize our energy and we have to in life to get up and feed the baby at 2:00 in the morning or, um, you know, put in our 40-hour week or whatever the requirements are. Uh, but over time, um, forcing the energy system leads, as we know, to boredom and burnout, and ultimately depression, often with self-medication attached to that. Um, thirdly, we have dreams which comment. Um, fourthly, most importantly is the question of meaning. If what we're doing is meaningful as understood by the psyche, it will support us even in face of suffering and sacrifice and so forth. If what we're doing is wrong as seen by the psyche, then over time it begins to pathologize. So you take that word psychopathology, literally from the Greek it means the expression of the suffering of the soul, which I think is revelatory. The expression of the suffering of the soul. Now, that seems to me obligatory to take seriously. If my soul... (laughs) And again, that's a metaphor, you know. People look for the soul throughout history and you can't find it in the pineal gland, for example.

   4. NANarrator20:48

      Mm-mm. No.

   5. JHDr. James Hollis20:48

      The soul's a metaphor for the organic wisdom of that natural being that we are. The soul is a metaphor for, uh, this purposeful expression of the organism. It is purposeful. In other words, the question that occupies all of us in childhood and throughout the first half of life, at least, if not an entire lifetime, is, "What does the world want of me? What do my parents want from me? What do my school teacher want from me? W- what do playmates expect of me? What does the partner want from me? What does the employer want?" All of these are reality-based encounters with the demands of the environment, and- and part of what we have to do is develop enough ego strength to create a provisional sense of self and a provisional functional self to deal with those expectations. But then when you've done that, you know, why are you still here? What's the purpose? Are you simply here to be a creature of adaptations? Now, without those adaptations, we would be overwhelmed typically by the circumstances of our lives, so we accommodate them in some way.

5. 21:56 – 25:37

   Second Half of Life, Purpose, Depression

   1. JHDr. James Hollis21:56

      But in the second half of life, and I'm us- using that term very loosely, um, the real question is, what does the soul want of me? You know, what does the psyche want of me? And that's a different question. Then the issue comes up, what is it that is wishing expression in the world through me? That's a different question than what does the world ask of me. The people that we would most admire in history are people who, in some way, found and lived out what the soul was asking of them. It didn't spare them from suffering, sometimes even martyrdom. It doesn't spare you from conflict and pain, maybe isolation, maybe exile, but you're fed by the purposefulness of it. Take that away and life is pretty empty. And, of course, we live in a culture where there's this enormous (laughs) barrage of external stimuli. Well, buy this, purchase that, do this or that, the latest thing in this or that, the newest shiny thing. And the more I'm seeking to define myself through that environmental summons, the more likely I'm gonna be estranged from something inside. All of us know it, but we don't know what to do about that at some level. And typically, it has to hurt enough inside to bring a person into therapy. People don't just walk in and say, "Well, I was in the neighborhood and I thought I'd pop in and talk to a total stranger, pay him some money, and then, you know, walk out as a different person." It doesn't work that way. I- I've often said to people, "This is not about curing you because you're not a disease. This is about, uh, making your life more interesting, where you realize every morning you get up, um, you have something profound to address today. Why am I here and in service to what?" Because if you don't ask that question, you're gonna be in service to your adaptive postures from childhood, as many people prove to be, until the conflict within reaches that point where the suffering of the soul, psychopathology, is sufficient. Um, I myself was cruising along in my 30s, I'd achieved everything that I wanted to achieve and was enjoying my life, and then suddenly, inexplicably had a very serious depression.And it took me a while to realize that I was asking the wrong question. The first question that occurs to a person under those circumstances is, um, "How quickly do I get rid of this?" You know, "Give me five easy steps, or a pill for that," or whatever. I didn't understand the real question is, why has your psyche autonomously withdrawn its approval and support from the agenda that you've been a- addressing? It was a good agenda. Uh, nothing wrong with it, but there was something else that was missing in this process. And it took a depression, like something from below reached up and pulled me down. Something was being pressed down. That's depression. And at the bottom of that well, there's always a task, there's always an issue, the identification of which can lead one into a new place in one's life, a, a different journey. In my case, it, it led me to, uh, leave a very fine tenured position in academia, travel to Switzerland, and spend several years there in retraining as a psychoanalyst. And, uh, I now look upon that depression as beneficent, but at the time, I certainly didn't, as you can imagine.

6. 25:37 – 27:08

   Sponsor: AG1

   1. JHDr. James Hollis25:37

   2. AHAndrew Huberman25:37

      I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. By now, most of you have heard me tell my story about how I've been taking AG1 once or twice a day every day since 2012. And indeed, that's true. I started taking AG1, and I still take AG1 once or twice a day, because it gives me vitamins and minerals that I might not be getting enough of from whole foods that I eat, as well as adaptogens and micronutrients. And those adaptogens and micronutrients are really critical, because even though I strive to eat most of my foods from unprocessed or minimally processed whole foods, it's often hard to do so, especially when I'm traveling and especially when I'm busy. So by drinking a packet of AG1 in the morning, and oftentimes also again in the afternoon or evening, I'm ensuring that I'm getting everything I need. I'm covering all of my foundational nutritional needs. And I, like so many other people that take AG1 regularly, just report feeling better. And that shouldn't be surprising because it supports gut health, and of course, gut health supports immune system health and brain health, and it's supporting a ton of different cellular and organ processes that all interact with one another. So while certain supplements are really directed towards one specific outcome, like sleeping better or being more alert, AG1 really is foundational nutritional support. It's really designed to support all of the systems of your brain and body that relate to mental health and physical health. If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer. They'll give you five free travel packs with your order, plus a year supply of vitamin D3 K2. Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman.

7. 27:08 – 31:47

   Tool: Daily Reflection; Crisis

   1. AHAndrew Huberman27:08

      So if our task is to get in touch with this kind of yearning of the soul...

   2. JHDr. James Hollis27:16

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman27:17

      ... um, to perhaps do some reparative work from our childhood, or at least understand our parent-child relationships...

   4. JHDr. James Hollis27:23

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman27:24

      ... and then in an ideal circumstance, to express ourselves through some higher calling, if you will, higher meaning f- for us or for the world, hopefully both. Uh, that's, that would be ideal. In terms of the day, you know, you said you, you, you can wake up in the morning, presumably some of the residual thought processes and emotions from a dream or dreams still live within us early in the day. And then we start going about our day doing the practical things, making the cup of coffee, drinking the water, getting some sunshine, uh, these sorts of things. How is it that the typical person, any of us, can think about segmenting our thinking and our actions in a way that we're touching into the deeper meaning of life while also carrying out a life? Because as you know and I know and everybody listening and watching knows that there's stuff to do.

   6. JHDr. James Hollis28:19

      Of course.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman28:19

      We need, we need to often get an education, make a living, tend to people around us, tend to ourselves and, and it becomes a, a, a kind of a neuroscience problem in my mind, right? You know, different brain circuitries for different types of thinking. And if I may, it, I think it also becomes a, a time perception problem. You know, the brain, the human brain to me is so magnificent at setting milestones that are like, get in the shower, finish the shower, check the text messages, talk to somebody, and get about the day. The milestones become very close in. And then if we're lucky enough to be able to take a walk and reflect, put the phone away, et cetera, then our mind can expand into, you know, "Gosh, why am I here?" You know, uh, "What about my, that thing my grandfather said to me or my grandmother said to me?" And you know, the, the ability to, to place our perception in larger or smaller time bins seems very closely linked to all of this, um, and to the sense of mortality, which we'll certainly talk about in a little bit. But in, in a kind of a practical way, in the absence of a daily therapy session, um, h- how, how do you suggest people start to segment, um, or, um, compartmentalize in a way that's functional? For instance, um, should people set aside 15 minutes each morning to just think about why they're on this earth, uh, and w- why they're doing and what they're doing as opposed to just doing?

   8. JHDr. James Hollis29:51

      Sure. Well, this is a central problem of our time is, is, um, everybody's gonna say, "I don't have time for that." I had a colleague, now deceased, Marion Woodman in Toronto, who used to say to her clients, "You have to guarantee me one hour per day that you reflect on your dreams or you te- you journal in terms of what's going on in your life." And she said, a- "Always people say, 'I don't have time for that.'" Then she said, "Then you h- you don't have time for therapy."... you don't, you're not making any priority here for this. And you're right. The claims of, you know, (laughs) Wordsworth wrote in 1802, "The world is too much with us, getting and spending, we lay waste our powers." This is 1802, before the internet, right? (laughs) With all of its claims upon us. There's such a noisy den around us. We're all distracted by that, you see? That's why it usually takes a crisis in a marriage or depression or whatever the case may be, to get people to pull out of that and reflect upon that. So I spend 15 minutes every morning before starting, uh, just meditating, particularly working on a dream if I've had a dream. And, and secondly, I reflect on things in the evening too, because one of the things we wanna try to do is to say, "What are the stories I'm living here?" You know, one of them, I've gotta earn a living. One of them, I've gotta do this. In other words, I have to do that. You see? But, but what's all of that frenzy about? You see? That's why I think the first half of life, and I say this semi-humorously, is a huge and unavoidable mistake 'cause we're living just reactively. You see, it's not generative, it's reacting to whatever's going on around us. Is one's entire life to be spent reacting to things? Now, when you're young, there's only so much ego strength to, to reflect

8. 31:47 – 37:27

   Families & Children, Permission & Burdens

   1. JHDr. James Hollis31:47

      upon this. A number of years ago, I was asked to give a talk to, uh, an advanced group of, uh, college students at a university on the psychodynamics of love. Well, they were all interested about love, I can tell you, right? (laughs) So it was a three-hour seminar. So the first 90 minutes, we talked about projection, transference, all these, they got it. They were smart kids. And then we took a short break. When we came back in, I said, "Now let's apply these ideas to your current or recent relationships." It was like the curtain came down. You know, they were 19, 20, 21, 22, in that area. They couldn't bear... they could get the idea, but they couldn't bear to look at themselves with that kind of scrutiny. Flash forward 20 years when they're 40 and their marriage just dissolved, or, um, you know, the, the relationship has hardships of one kind or another, they're much more m- likely to be able to, A, have enough ego strength to bear looking at oneself. Secondly, um, there's enough life experience to reflect upon, because this kind of work takes courage in the first place. I have to be able to bear to look at myself and see what's there, which all, won't always be pretty. And, and secondly, it's humbling, because this is not about feeling great, it's about being called to accountability, which is a whole different matter. To be an adult is not just to have a big body, it's, it's to know that I'm accountable for what's spilling into the world through me. Jung said once in one of those telling statements that haunts me in a constructive way, he said, "The greatest burden the child must bear is the unlived life of the parent." So where I'm stuck as a person, my children will be, uh, stuck, or they'll be spending their life trying to get unstuck, you see? So the best thing I can do for them is to model for them, you know, a life lived with as much courage as I can mobilize and as much integrity as I can manage. And in doing that, it not only models, it gives permission to them. Um, one of the things I found for many people is they don't really feel permission to feel what they feel, desire what they desire, go out and fight for what matters to them, because life, we learn early, is conditional. You will be acceptable in this family, you will perhaps be loved, you'll be rewarded, or you'll be punished if you meet these conditions. And if you don't meet the conditions... A lot of people put conditions on their, uh, on their children, you know? A lot of people are still living through their children. Um, you know, (laughs) if you'll, for- forgive the joke here, there, there's an old joke about Jewish mothers says the fetus is not considered full term until it's graduated from medical school. You see? And that's... and it, it's a joke about a cultural expectation and carrying someone else's unfinished business in a way in which, you know, is to make them feel good rather than serve what is wanting expression through you, which is quite a different matter. So one of the things one has to do is seize permission to realize life is short. Um, we're, we're here a very brief time, and the summons is to live your journey as honestly as you can, and when you do, it ultimately serves other people. It's not selfish, it's actually serving the self, if you will. It's not narcissistic, it's not self-absorption, it's, it's actually humbling. I would never have imagined as a child that I would spend my adult life listening to people's suffering, and yet, that's my day job, and I'm humbled to be invited into the lives of other people. It's profoundly meaningful. I can't imagine living without that. At the same time, um, it's not fun, it's not pleasant, but it's profoundly meaningful. That's the distinction. That's why of those various sources of insight that we can have into our lives, you have to ask about what is most meaningful to me as defined by the psyche, not by the culture around you, 'cause what the culture says, it's all about being successful, it's all about making money, it's about living in this neighborhood, it's about buying that object. And if that worked, we would know it. It obviously doesn't. So that's what brings us back to that humbling moment that maybe I'm not living my life.... Søren Kierkegaard, the Danish theologian in Copenhagen in 19th century talked about a man who was shocked to find his name in the obituary column, and he hadn't realized he'd died, 'cause he hadn't realized that he was here in the first place. Now, this is Kierkegaard talking in the middle of the 19th century. Think about the ramping up of the stimuli around us, the, the steady drum. Among young people, you take away their cellphone, they experience enormous anxiety, because this is their link to the world, and yet it's constantly making demands upon them. So again, underneath all of this is we have an appointment with our own souls, and the question is, are you gonna show up for the appointment? And I thought I had, but my psyche thought otherwise. So it was in the midst of a serious depression that I began showing up, and it was a, a difficult process, but ultimately proved to be, I think, transformative.

9. 37:27 – 41:55

   Complex Identification, Self-Perception; Social Media & Borderline

   1. JHDr. James Hollis37:27

   2. AHAndrew Huberman37:27

      I certainly agree that hardship, for better or worse, is often the way that these things stimulate the self-reflection that's required for change. There seems to be a, a tricky situation whereby on the one hand I'm hearing and I agree that it all starts with being very honest with oneself about what one really wants.

   3. JHDr. James Hollis37:50

      Yeah.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman37:50

      And I love and thank you for mentioning this 15 minutes in the early part of the day, perhaps ideally 15 minutes at the end of the day, where one takes time away from input from others of a- any form, electronic or otherwise, to just reflect on what's inside, and the messages coming up through dreams and reflection, et cetera, uh, so important.

   5. JHDr. James Hollis38:13

      Mm-hmm.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman38:13

      Um...

   7. JHDr. James Hollis38:14

      And may I just add another piece?

   8. AHAndrew Huberman38:15

      Please.

   9. JHDr. James Hollis38:15

      F- f- forgive the interruption, but I've often said to individuals, "It's not so much what you believe, feel, or do. It's what it's in service to inside of you." That's an important distinction. So I may think I've done a good thing when it's really an old codependence, or it's, it's a way of avoiding conflict, or it's a fear-driven response. We have to always be asking, "But what was that in service to inside of me?" And you may not know at first, but you keep asking the question, and it'll, it'll, it'll start, uh, you know, rising to the surface, and you begin to recognize that. That's how we begin to identify some of those internal drivers that we call the complexes, because again, they're, they're, they're clusters of energy with the power to create a provisional personality. And many times, people are identified with their complex. "That's who I am." You know? "I am what I do," or, "I am my performance," rather than beneath all of this is a human being who is wandering through life, afraid of dying, trying to avoid pain as much as possible, and, um, hoping that someone's gonna step in and make it all right.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman39:31

       Well, I'm certainly familiar with the feeling of, um, recognizing what I want, but being afraid that if I were to express that, that it would not, um, it would not be accepted.

   11. JHDr. James Hollis39:46

       Certainly.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman39:47

       And that certainly can create problems. Um, I'm also familiar with recognizing what I want and stating it very clearly, and some people, um, fortunately responding well. But I think it's fair to say, at least based on my experience, that when we are really honest with ourselves and with others, it doesn't always land well, right?

   13. JHDr. James Hollis40:08

       That's right.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman40:08

       I mean, um, I pay a lot of attention, probably too much, to, uh, messaging on social media in the landscape of science and health. It's just kind of the, the world I live in, um, much of the time these days. Uh, and what I notice is that there's a real gravitational pull of people to, um, let's call them whatever they are, influencers, public figures or, that, that are just very clear about who they are, um, at least in their own self-perception. But then herein lies the, the twist, it seems, is that what I'm hearing is that often our self-perception is not accurate.

   15. JHDr. James Hollis40:44

       That's correct.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman40:45

       And it's almost futile to try and convince people that we are who we believe we are, right?

   17. JHDr. James Hollis40:51

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman40:51

       And, uh, I have a theory that's emerging, it's not a formal theory, that the, the internet and, and in particular social media, uh, are, is borderline. It weaves back and forth between sane and psychotic-

   19. JHDr. James Hollis41:03

       Yes.

   20. AHAndrew Huberman41:03

       ... as if a borderline person would, projecting either adoration or total disgust. And I, I warn anybody now, including myself, if you're going on social media, you're interacting with a borderline organism, so you need to be prepared to be told in various ways, sometimes subtle, sometimes overt, that you're terrible, and you also need to be prepared for immense reward and being told that you're spectacular simply by being there. That's what it is to interact with a borderline person, and there's no controlling or predicting their, um, their flips. So, um, in any event, that's a little, uh, you know, theory that's, uh, emerging. Why wouldn't it be that way, right? You're the psychologist, but why wouldn't it be that way, because ultimately social media is the emergent property of all these individuals. Um,

10. 41:55 – 45:40

    Daily Stimulus Response, Listening to the Soul

    1. AHAndrew Huberman41:55

       okay, so you've made it clear how one way to anchor to the self and get in touch with what's really going on inside.

    2. JHDr. James Hollis42:04

       Yes.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman42:04

       Reflecting on dreams, reflecting on what geyers to the surface, journaling perhaps, meditation, ideally twice a day, perhaps therapy as well would be ideal.

    4. JHDr. James Hollis42:14

       Yes.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman42:15

       But then we move about our day-

    6. JHDr. James Hollis42:16

       Mm-hmm.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman42:17

       ... and we do our best to be the best version of ourselves.

    8. JHDr. James Hollis42:19

       Right.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman42:20

       And when we get positive feedback, we tend to, I think, as you know-

    10. JHDr. James Hollis42:26

        Mm-hmm.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman42:26

        ... neurobiological, psychological organisms do more of that, right?

    12. JHDr. James Hollis42:29

        Do more of that. Yes. Mm-hmm.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman42:31

        Um, uh, and it's sort of a bank account of sorts. We're going for a net positive balance, um, and we tend to do less of the things that give us negative feedback.... except perhaps or go to social media where people seem to go on there specifically for friction-based interactions as well, which is its own thing. So, as we move through life, first half of life, second half of life, how is it that we can orient in time, as I kind of put it before? How can we, um, carry out these daily or weekly or maybe yearly reflections in a way that really serves us well? I mean, d- do you recommend one day a week stepping away from everything? Do you recommend, um, doing retreats of sort? Do you recommend that, um, people keep a life journal, is the story and seeing how one story e- evolves, is this useful? What I'm trying to do here is, um, kind of, uh, orient people to some practical tools-

    14. JHDr. James Hollis43:33

        Sure.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman43:33

        ... becau- um, because I think at some level, we can get pulled down currents of any kind.

    16. JHDr. James Hollis43:39

        That's right.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman43:40

        And ideally, we, we, you know, stay out of deep pathology.

    18. JHDr. James Hollis43:44

        Mm-hmm.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman43:45

        But even if we hit the rumble strips and go back over and over again, um, this is, this is important work, right? This is, this is about being the best version of ourselves and society benefits from that. So a- are there more macroscopic things that we can do, um, or is it just a daily chip away to meditations, ideally therapy, journal, and just anchor down? Um, do we ever get r- do we ever get to relax? (laughs)

    20. JHDr. James Hollis44:14

        (laughs) Well, of course, of course. Um, fi- first of all, there's no formula that's applicable to everybody and their life circumstances. You know, the word psychotherapy literally means, from the Greek, to listen to or pay attention to the soul. However you go about doing that is right for you. It's up to you to figure that out. And for some people, it be working in nature. For others, it'll be working with their hands. For others, it'll be through some creative enterprise or working with their dreams or meditating or, or whatever. Um, I would say whatever helps you step out of the stimulus response, stimulus response melee that we call our daily life is likely to be helpful to you, either because you rest and you restore the psyche and/or you have some reflection upon it. You, you recollect yourself as it is, right? You remember the self because we get unraveled. I often have the feeling of getting unraveled in life where, you know, this calls you and this calls you and this calls you and that calls you, and you're ju- it's just pulling you away w- from, from some center here. And again, this is not about self-absorption, but if I'm not in connection with something abiding here, my behaviors or choices there are not gonna be very helpful in the long run, you see? They're gonna be merely responsive to the demands of the environmental circumstances.

11. 45:40 – 51:19

    Exiting Stimulus-Response, Loneliness, Burnout

    1. AHAndrew Huberman45:41

       One thing I enjoy doing from time to time is drawing. I like doing anatomical drawings-

    2. JHDr. James Hollis45:45

       Mm-hmm. Yes.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman45:45

       ... and things of that sort and I find that if, if I engage in an activity that absorbs all of my attention-

    4. JHDr. James Hollis45:50

       Yes.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman45:51

       ... even though I have zero, minus one aspirations of becoming a commercial artist or something of that sort, that, um, two things happen. One, I exit the stimulus response world and at the same time, it's inevitable that some insight comes later.

    6. JHDr. James Hollis46:10

       That's right.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman46:11

       What is that?

    8. JHDr. James Hollis46:12

       Well, you see, I think that's a good example though, as you said, of exiting the stimulus response cycle because in that moment, something in your psyche rises to express itself through you. And, and, you know, it's your drawing. It's, we, we could perhaps read that drawing and, and perhaps interpret something of it, you know, like the famous Rorschach, for example. I mean, what? Rorschach's an inkblot. When's an inkblot not an inkblot? Well, whe- when I confabulate a response to it, you see? And that response is indicative of what is going on inside of me. So that's a good example. I mean, for some people, you know, they, they have those moments when they're out jogging, for example, or riding a bicycle or, or whatever, whatever it does, listening to music. There's no right path for everyone. It's like find the place where you're able to be alone with yourself and if you can tolerate being with yourself and you pay attention, something will start coming up, you see? And, and ultimately, ironically, that's the cure to the great disease of our time, which is loneliness. It's interesting that U- UK and Japan now have cabinet level posts for ministers of loneliness, so great is the loneli- We've never been more connected in human history through our electronic media and yet people are now isolated in their rooms talking to each other. And I, I saw a cartoon, I, it was probably New York or somewhere where a couple was getting married and the, the minister says to the couple, "Uh, text each other I do," you know? (laughs) It was ultimately a joke about how we are so media dependent n- now that we're disconnected from each other. And so whatever it is that helps you link to something in here, you can ask this question, which I, I'm also haunted by in a constructive way. He said, "We all need to find what supports us when nothing supports us."

    9. AHAndrew Huberman48:13

       Mm-hmm.

    10. JHDr. James Hollis48:14

        And that's ultimately the cure for loneliness, that there's something inside of me that knows me better than me, is, is working hard to bring about a healthy response to whatever life brings and it has a purposefulness to it, an intentionality, an expression. And when I'm in touch with it, I feel that sense of wholeness and purposefulness. When I'm out of it, it's when I start unraveling, so to speak, and I just... That's how, how we get exhausted and burned out and so forth.So, uh, again, this is... I use that word re-collecting, remembering. It's like pulling the pieces back together again, in some way. So what Shakespeare said, uh, the, um, knitting the ravel- uh, raveled sleeve of care, you see? He- he was using the same metaphor, of being unraveled in some way.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman49:10

        I love this notion of, um, spending time alone and accessing one's deepest resource for self-care as a way to deal with loneliness, because ultimately, I also completely agree that stimulus response is the hallmark of text messaging. Uh, there can be useful-

    12. JHDr. James Hollis49:30

        Sure.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman49:31

        ... aspects of text messaging, of course, coordinating plans, et cetera, and communicating, but- but certainly social media. It's a, you know, we have a stimulus response device. Some people think of it more like a slot machine, but it never actually returns the jackpot is the, is the issue. Um, and I also think that social media can be terrific for educating and learning as well, um, certainly much of what I do or strive to do. I think time alone is incredibly beneficial, so thank you for- for highlighting that and- and also that it doesn't take much, you know, maybe even a half hour-

    14. JHDr. James Hollis50:04

        That's right.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman50:04

        ... walk or something of that sort. If I may, what do you think happens when we exit that stimulus response mode? Do you think the unconscious mind is revealed a bit more to us?

    16. JHDr. James Hollis50:15

        Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman50:16

        Um, and I think of the unconscious mind, um, a f- a former guest on this podcast, um, a psychiatrist, described the unconscious as kind of like the- the uh, the iceberg that's beneath the surface, our... all the stuff going on that we're- we're entirely unaware of. Do you think that the water recedes a little bit? Um...

    18. JHDr. James Hollis50:32

        Oh, absolutely, uh, because it... there's no room for the expression of- of- of whatever's wanting to be acknowledged within us when we're constantly responding to our environmental demands. Um, one of the things I try to do is walk a mile every day. I've gone through some health issues in recent years, and so I'm sort of in a physical recovery stage of life, and I walk a mile a day even though it's physically difficult. Uh, and I find that re- revelatory because that's... I- I'm focused on being present here, rather than all of the distractions there, and that's one of the things that I have found a form of meditation, if you will, and what comes up for me is often surprising.

12. 51:19 – 54:58

    Meditation & Perception, Reflection

    1. AHAndrew Huberman51:19

       I've talked before on the podcast about meditation, clinical hypnosis, something called Yoga Nidra, which is a self-directed relaxation.

    2. JHDr. James Hollis51:26

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman51:26

       I sometimes call it non-sleep deep rest, et cetera, and without taking us on a tangent, um, I- I raise this because we keep talking about meditation and, um, I think to a lot of people, meditation sounds like something esoteric. To me, as a neuroscientist, meditation is a perceptual exercise. It can be done to enhance focus by focusing on a specific location behind the forehead or looking at a- a light. It can be, um, an, uh, open monitoring meditation where you're intentionally not trying to focus on any one thing, but it... at the end of the day, it's a perceptual ex- it's- it's a deliberate perceptual shift, um, much in the same way that if I decide to, you know, listen to, uh, an opera with my eyes closed, that's a... in some sense, it's a meditation. It's a deliberate perceptual shift. Um, so a deliberate perceptual shift that we're calling a meditation, which I think is a great label for it, that is directly aimed at better understanding the un- one's own unconscious processing so that one can then lean into the stimulus response parts of life with more intentionality, with less opportunity to hit the rumble strips or go into the gutter, um...

    4. JHDr. James Hollis52:38

       With a more authentic response to it, you see, because it's more likely to be coming out of me rather than simply being reactive.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman52:45

       Mm-hmm.

    6. JHDr. James Hollis52:45

       I think that's the important thing.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman52:47

       What's so important about what you're saying is that for years now, we've heard about, you know, meditation being important as a way to, uh, intervene in the stimulus response process.

    8. JHDr. James Hollis52:59

       Mm-hmm. Yes.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman52:59

       Um, and people say, "Be responsive, not reactive," and it all sounds so wonderful, just as sounding... being gritty and resilient sounds wonderful, but one of the things that's many im-... uh, really important here that you're raising is that there are methods to do this. They almost always involve going inward or someone w- who can see what we can't see pointing out blind spots in us.

    10. JHDr. James Hollis53:21

        That's right. Well, I- I think, again, the issue is to still the traffic inside and be present to the moment in whatever way that is. That's why I said a person can meditate by work of the hands or by walking or something that pulls one out of the- the cycles that are running their- their little script over and over and over. So there are many forms of meditating, and, you know, ancient traditions have revealed that too. There was walking meditation and so forth, and you mentioned music. I think that's another example, to listen to music, I think takes one out of... You know, Nietzsche said once, "Without music, life's a mistake," and I think what he was getting at was there is a sense in which music has no purpose except being itself. So when we're really present to the music, we are in the midst of being. If I'm... well, we're... it's spring right now as you and I are talking and it's beautiful in the neighborhood, and so I've been watching the flowers emerge and so forth, um, and- and simply being present to that means some of that other traffic is stilled, and then I return and the traffic resumes, but maybe I have a little more of a sense of who I am and from whence I'm responding, you see, as a result of that recentering process. You know, the- the Zen folks talk about being no minded. I think their... it was their way of talking about being present to this moment, but- but not consumed by the demands of this moment, and that's- that's a difficult thing to manage, but it's essential.

13. 54:58 – 56:15

    Sponsor: Waking Up

    1. AHAndrew Huberman54:58

       I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Waking Up. Waking Up is a meditation app that offers hundreds of guided meditations, mindfulness trainings, yoga nidra sessions, and more. I started meditating over three decades ago, and what I found in the ensuing years is that sometimes it was very easy for me to do my daily meditation practice. I was just really diligent. But then as things would get more stressful, which of course is exactly when I should've been meditating more, my meditation practice would fall off. With Waking Up, they make it very easy to find and consistently use a given meditation practice. It has very convenient reminders, and they come in different durations, so even if you just have one minute or five minutes to meditate, you can still get your meditation in, which research shows is still highly beneficial. In addition to the many different meditations on the Waking Up app, they also have yoga nidra sessions, which are a form of non-sleep deep rest that I personally find is extremely valuable for restoring mental and physical vigor. I tend to do a yoga nidra lasting anywhere from 10 to 20 minutes at least once a day, and if I ever wake up in the middle of the night and I need to fall back asleep, I also find yoga nidra to be extremely useful. If you'd like to try the Waking Up app, you can go to wakingup.com/huberman to try a free 30-day trial. Again, that's wakingup.com/huberman.

14. 56:15 – 1:02:48

    Recognizing the “Shadow” & Adulthood

    1. AHAndrew Huberman56:15

       Perhaps we can talk about the shadow.

    2. JHDr. James Hollis56:17

       Okay.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman56:17

       This notion of the shadow. Um, sounds very ominous. Um, what is the shadow, and are people aware of their shadows? And if they're not, how can they become aware of them, and how can they work with them?

    4. JHDr. James Hollis56:35

       Well, a shadow is Jung's metaphor for those parts of our own psyche and/or our affiliation with groups, for example, whether it's a religious group, educational group, a national identity, that when brought to consciousness, we find troubling, perhaps contradictory to our values or, um, you know, inimical to our sense of self-worth or something like that. For example, typical shadow issues include our capacity for jealousy and for envy, for aggression, for greed, et cetera, et cetera. Uh, we don't want to acknowledge those things, but since when are we exempt from the human condition? The wisest thing ever said about the shadow came from Latin playwright, Terence, two millennia ago, who said, "Uh, nothing human is alien to me." Now, I think that's important to recognize. In me, I carry the entire capacity of human nature to express itself. Some of those forms of expressions will be acceptable to the society or to my psychological culture, and some will not be. Um, and that's the shadow material. And, you know, there's the personal shadow and there are group shadows, because nations can be possessed by blood lust, for example, or- or a fashion is a shadow issue, where everybody has to look the same way and dress the same way and so forth. You know, the more insecure I am as a person, the more likely I'm going to try to look around me for whatever the clues so I can fit in, be w- be like others, and therefore I'll be acceptable, you see? That's not a federal crime. That's a very deep complex that is left over from childhood. I'm not here to fit in. (laughs) I'm here to be who I am, which at times will fit in and other times it won't. But that's okay, because I'm at least in good relationships to my- myself at that point. So typically, the shadow manifests as being unconscious, therefore it just spills into the world through us. A perfect example of shadow issues, as I mentioned before, is parents expecting their children to grow up and have, you know, the same kind of values that I have, for example, same religious views, marry somebody that I find acceptable, et cetera, et cetera. Well, that's not really loving the otherness of the other, is it? It's not really loving the child for their own journey. That's them carrying some piece of their- of their own, uh, unfinished business. Secondly, uh, we disown the shadow by projecting it on some... You know those people across the border there, you know, they're the carrier of... They're- they're what's wrong with this world, you see? I disown the shadow in myself by seeing it in everybody else around me. Jung actually said what often we find troubling in another person is because they're- they're (laughs) expressing something within our own unconscious. Um, y- uh, you know, as a certain itinerant rabbi said two millennia ago, um, "I can see the speck in your eye, but miss the log in my own." That's a perfect illustration of what the shadow is. Thirdly, one can get caught up in it. That's at times what rock concerts are, mass events, people are caught up in a mob mentality, where you lose your sense of individual ego identity and become subsumed into a collective mood. And, you know, that could be, um, a hanging mob, for example, as has happened in history too many times. Um, and it could be a force for good or a force for evil, but again, the larger the group, the lower the level of consciousness of the individuals in that group. And then fourthly, we recognize it in ourselves. In a, um, speech at Yale University in 1937, Jung said, "A person who could look at their own shadow and own it," he said, "now has a large problem because they're no longer to blame others for what goes wrong in their life." They- they have to acknowledge that within themselves. And he said further, "It's the single best thing you can do for your society." This is not navel-gazing. This is how you lift your unfinished business off of your partner, your children. Take it back yourself, which is a loving thing to do and a civic-minded thing to do if you look at it collectively here.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:53

       So, how does one learn what their shadow or shadows?

    6. JHDr. James Hollis1:00:59

       Well, again, if you're married, ask your partner.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:01

       Sure.

    8. JHDr. James Hollis1:01:02

       (laughs) You know?

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:02

       Yeah.

    10. JHDr. James Hollis1:01:02

        Who will tell you immediately, um, what your unfinished business may be, um, or your children or your close friend perhaps.Um, it shows up in dreams. Um, you know, Freud talked about a young man who disowned wha- the content of his dream. He says, "Well, that, I, I don't..." You know, Freud said, "Well, wh- whose dream do you think that was? It was your dream. You have to acknowledge that that was embodying something within you." So, um, there are many ways to recognize the shadow. Often, consequences pile up and then one begins to realize, well, the only consistent person in all the, uh, scenes of this drama I call my life is, is moi. So I have to acknowledge that that's my stuff. And that's a very humbling thing. That's why I say this work is humbling. Not, not, uh, inflating in some way. It's humbling. So, um, again, shadow work is never gonna be popular because it means I'm taking responsibility. And yet what else would being a human being who's responsible and adult-like, um, do except accept responsibility, you see? It's one of the definitions I would say of an adult person is I, I know I'm accountable for what spills in the world through me. Yes, I'm responding to various things that happen around me, but sooner or later, I, I'm the one bringing my stories, my conditioned responses, and something of my shadow to the mix and responding out of that. Now, that's a, a witch's brew at times (laughs) , as you could imagine. At the same time, you recognize, all right, but that's my business to address, because if I don't, it just continues.

15. 1:02:48 – 1:09:04

    Socialization; Family & Life Journey

    1. JHDr. James Hollis1:02:48

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:02:48

       What I observe in the world and what I've experienced before is that, um, certainly we all have shadow sides. Um, me, everybody.

    3. JHDr. James Hollis1:02:57

       Yes.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman1:02:57

       I mean, I think that's, like, I think anyone that doesn't believe that is, uh, perhaps not of homo sapiens, um, you know. Um, maybe other animals have shadows too. Who knows? Um, but that when shadows clash, it becomes very confusing because, um, g- given what you're saying, very few people address their shadows. And these days especially, there's no need to make this political. This is just social.

    5. JHDr. James Hollis1:03:23

       Sure.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:23

       Um, we see mobs forming. As you said, the larger the group, the lower the level of consciousness. And then it becomes even more challenging to address one's shadow when, A, there's the perception of an attack.

    7. JHDr. James Hollis1:03:44

       Mm-hmm.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:45

       B, that attack oftentimes is the reflection of the other group's shadow. And C, people find refuge with people who have similar sh- shadow processes.

    9. JHDr. James Hollis1:03:59

       Yes.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:59

        So it, um, not to be pessimistic here, but, um, perhaps the answer is what you referred to before, is to go inward to the self, work with somebody or, or, um, somebody close to you that, that has your best interest in mind, truly best interest in mind, and then, um, try to resolve that.

    11. JHDr. James Hollis1:04:19

        Well, yes, and very few people are willing to do that. That's what polarizes societies, polarizes groups, and, and so forth. It's, it's comforting to find like-minded people, but then they're both caught in the same complex is another way of putting that. So ultimately, whatever it, reality is, it's gonna wear through that and, and reveal something that's, uh, gonna be pretty disconcerting to individuals who, who are caught in a collective identification that way. You know, the, the shadow comes because our human nature is thrust into various social situations. We can't help but have a shadow. You know? (laughs) I mean, we, we have to socialize a child. We learn to use a knife and fork and not take our sibling's food and that sort of thing. You learn to look both ways before you cross the street. There's socialization that's important, and yet the greater the socialization, the more likely there's gonna be an interruption. I mean, think about those cultures where people are forced to dress alike for some form of unity or conformity. Um, um, think, think about where a person might have a special gift or talent, but it's not appreciated in family X or Y. Well, where does that natural form of expression go? It pathologizes as depression or it comes out in compensatory dreams or projections onto someone else or, or it makes the person ill. You know, the unlived life can make a person ill. There's a sickness unto death as Kierkegaard talked about it, you know? It's, it's, uh, it's that sickness th- where, where the human spirit is being repetitively violated. And much in our culture violates our spirits. And, and spirit is not something you will. It's something that, that is the quickening of life's energy and service to something. And if your family or your situation imposes itself upon that... Uh, to give a quick example, my, my own family of origin was one in which they were, by the circumstances of decades ago, unable to attain an education. My father worked in a factory. My mother was a secretary. And, um, fo- for them, life was a series of shaming events and, um, overwhelming events. And the message to me, both overt and covert, is don't go out there. It's, it's too, too big. It's too much. Stay here and we'll take care of each other. So one of the first things I did when I was 18 was left (laughs) . I went to college and came back for vacations, but, but I left psychologically at that point. I, something in me knew that I had to have a larger life than that, and I say that with love and respect and compassion for my parents. The last conversation I had with my mother before she died of cancer...... um, her ancestor, the father she'd never known, was from Sweden. And I'd had a book translated into Swedish, and I told her I thought that would be something that would be nice for her. And, and she was horrified. It's like, "Why have you written it? What are they saying?" And I thought she meant reviewers at first, and I realized, that's the voice I heard in childhood.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman1:07:36

        Mm.

    13. JHDr. James Hollis1:07:36

        She was saying, "You shouldn't be out there. Now, people are going to attack you. This will draw attention to you." You see? And her intention was protective. In her last days actually, before she died, she was more afraid of what people thought than whether her son was living his journey or not.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:07:58

        Mm.

    15. JHDr. James Hollis1:07:59

        And I say this with grief for her. And, and that was the message of childhood, you know? It's too much out there. And yet, (laughs) something inside quickened and said, "Well, you need to go where those airplanes are going. You need to go see the ocean for yourself. Um, you need to try to live in a foreign country and see what that's like." Um, was I, was that easy? No. It was doubly hard because of the messages I had, but it was just necessary. Sooner or later, again, the appointment with your life, do you keep it or you not keep the appointment? So that was the first meaning of the appointment was to, to leave home (laughs) and start the journey. You know, in terms of the archetype of the, of the journey, uh, is, first is the departure. And then you have the initiatory experiences, which can knock you down, and then the question is, do you get up and go to the next one? And sooner or later, something begins to change inside and you begin to feel that this isn't, this is the journey that's right for me.

16. 1:09:04 – 1:15:51

    Relationships & “Otherness”, Standing Your Ground

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:05

       It's very moving to hear because I, you know, we hear with that we become our parents.

    2. JHDr. James Hollis1:09:09

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:10

       And yet, I've never believed that. Um, I believe that, um, for whatever reasons inside us, that we either adopt their traits, unconsciously or consciously, or we resist them 180 degrees in the other direction.

    4. JHDr. James Hollis1:09:29

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:30

       There doesn't seem to be a 90-degree response-

    6. JHDr. James Hollis1:09:32

       That's right.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:33

       ... as, as your example beautifully illustrates. That there's something in the brain and in the human psyche that either says, "Yeah, okay. Like, that's just the way life is, um, for better or worse," um, or says, "No." And, you know, I feel, I'm 48 years old, so I'm still learning to be a full adult. (laughs) Um, I like to think there's some neuroplasticity left. Science tells us there's neuroplasticity throughout the lifespan, so I, and I do believe that. Um, but I feel like so much of being an adult, perhaps just being a human being, is about learning to stand one's ground and say, "No. No, no, no, that's me and this is what's right for me, and you're wrong, crazy, or just different, and we agree to disagree." And then there's the other half of being an adult, which is saying, "Oh, goodness. You might be right. Maybe you are right. Okay, you're right. (laughs) I screwed up or I need to think, at least think about this differently." And, and the hard work of being a, a human, I think, is knowing when you are dealing with incoming messages that are real. They could be from a healthy source or an unhealthy source. It's complicated. And this is why I mentioned this thing about the internet and social media in particular earlier. I do believe it's borderline. I think if you were to remove the names and the, um, faces and you would just put that into a, a, a script, you'd say this is a dialogue coming from a borderline person, weaving back and forth across the line literally of healthy and psychotic. And so as a human, especially nowadays, it's complicated. Um, we don't just live in little villages where we go, "Okay, well, that person tends to kinda, you know, spin off, and that person seems very grounded, but occasionally makes mistakes too." You know? (laughs) Um, and so I feel like so much of the work of being a, a, I said an adult, but I, I'm gonna replace that with just a human, is trying to know thyself, right, as the Oracle said, and own thyself, and, and report that into the world, but also to be semi-permeable in a way that's functional is such hard work. Because in both cases, the adoption of what we were told and what was ingrained in us and is unconscious, so that we just live out the script of our parents, or where we say, "No. I'm, I'm gonna leave this little town." Or, "I'm not gonna live life or relationships that way at all. I'm gonna do it this other completely different way, maybe unconventional way." Both have an element of reactivity in them, and certainly both have an element of, um, kind of, uh, um, there's like a, there's a vigor behind it.

    8. JHDr. James Hollis1:12:34

       Sure. No, your, your point is very well taken and, and appropriate because it is a paradox. First of all, (sighs) in The Eden Project, a book I wrote on relationship and subtitled The Search for the Magical Other, there is inside of us this infantile and understandable desire to find the right person who's gonna make our life work for us, who's going to take care of us, meet our needs, read our minds, et cetera, et cetera. You see? And the other person has that going on in them, so they project that onto us, and you wonder why relationships get so complexed. You see? But the great gift of relationship...... if you can tolerate it, is the otherness of the other produces the dialectic. It produces the, the enlargement that comes from encountering the other. I've learned so much from my wife, and I believe she's learned a few things from me. Uh, w- our ongoing dialogue, 'cause we're both similar and very different at the same time, is one that has, at times, been conflictual, naturally, but most of the time, is a pattern of growth, because we, we are allowed to bring in that other perspective and see the same reality. My wife, my wife has taught me to see some things that I wouldn't have seen before, 'cause she's, has an artist's eye. On the other hand, there are places where you have to come up, as you said, against what is central and critical to your own wellbeing, or your own integrity, and then you have to stand for that. And the wisdom to know which is which at any given time is, is not inbred. It's, it's one of those f- times where we have to find that balancing point between legitimate dialogue and compromise, and sacrifice in a relationship. There's a place for sacrifice. But at the same time, there's a place where you have to say, "All right, but I also have to separate myself here, and, and stand for this on the other side of that." And, you know, it takes a Solomonic wisdom to know always what's right. But over time, I think one can get a sense of, of what that's about. So, you know, again, that's why we, we have to individuate as individuals by definition, but also in relationship, because it's the otherness of the others that pulls us out of that self-referential system. Otherwise, we get caught, you know, in a circular dialogue among our complexes, for example. As Jung said, "It's important to go to the mountaintop to meditate, but if you stay up there too long, you'll be talking to ghosts," you know? Your, your complexes will be caught in this, this looping cycle, and you need the other to pull you out of that into the presence of the other, and it's out of that-

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:16

       Yeah.

    10. JHDr. James Hollis1:15:16

        ... that the third comes. Um, Joseph Campbell made an important distinction once. He said about committed relationship, he said, "If you're constantly sacrificing to the other, um, you'll grow resentful. But if you're sacrificing to the project the two of you've launched to- together, as a friendship, or a marriage, or whatever form it takes, you can do that in a very constructive way." You're fed by that, because you're, you're, you're mutually committed to the project that this relationship represents, and that's an important distinction, I think.

17. 1:15:51 – 1:19:37

    Marriage, “Starter Marriages” & Evolution; Parenting

    1. JHDr. James Hollis1:15:52

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:52

       Yeah, given that 50% or more of marriages seem to end in divorce these days-

    3. JHDr. James Hollis1:15:57

       Yeah. That's right.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:57

       ... I think that statistic still holds. Um, do you think that can be largely attributed to, uh, people not arriving to those relationships with the mindset you just described, people not arriving to those relationships having, um, a deep enough understanding of themselves prior to that, or, um, something else?

    5. JHDr. James Hollis1:16:18

       I think all of the above. Um, first of all, young people tend to marry and make babies, understandably. Um, and then 20 years later, in some way, they're a different person, and it's very hard for the premises that brought them together to still obtain in a developmental and honest way, you know, many years later. When you've reached that point, then there's a time for renegotiation, or if need be, unfortunately, the dissolution of that relationship. Um, because I had (laughs) a colleague in New Jersey years ago who worked exclusively with couples, and she, she talked about starter marriages, and she said, "I would never say that publicly, 'cause that sounded too pessimistic." But she said, "If you're lucky, your starter marriage will be a good one that will evolve," and, and so forth. But for most people, that which brought them together was running from their parents, or (laughs) replicating their parents' relationships, or, uh, their, their insecurity about themselves, therefore they bonded with someone else who was gonna take care of that for them. Whatever it was, it's been outlived. Their, their own natural development, their life circumstances have changed, and then it brings about, you know, the necessity of some very difficult decisions. So, you know, marriage, marriage is an institution with the best of intentions that is sorely tested over time, and, you know, sometimes it'll survive the test, and... I, I would not automatically applaud if somebody's been married 50 or 60 years. I would ask what has happened to the soul of that person in that relationship? Has it grown? Has it developed? Did, did they mutually support each other's growth and development, or did something get stuck at that point? And, um, our, our s- e- early family of origin dynamics still dominating that relationship? And from the outside, we usually don't know the answer to that question. But inside, you'd have to say, "What, what has happened to this person?" And, uh, the same is true with parenting, you know? Parenting is very, very difficult, because we'd like to think we know what's right for our own child, but then they have to spend a good part of their life trying to get away from us in some way, (laughs) as we did ourselves, you see? And then you- if you remember that, then you're l- little more likely to say, "You know, I really don't know what's going on here, but I have to s- pay more attention to what I think is wanting expression through my child," and, and support that, rather than assuming that they're gonna grow up and replicate our lives and our values, as I've said before.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman1:19:01

       Given the number of people who do deep introspective work, either by themselves or with a trained professional, it's, uh, perhaps should surprise us that 50% of marriages do survive.

    7. JHDr. James Hollis1:19:13

       Yeah. In a, in a way, yes. And, and those that survive are not necessarily good marriages, in the sense in which the person is growing and developing. They may be stuck. They may be afraid of the alternatives. They may be bound by economics, for example, or, or cultural forms.So again, from outside, you don't know what's happening inside the soul of that individual. And it's very important for us to not judge them for that reason.

18. 1:19:37 – 1:27:59

    Shadow Issues, Success & External Reward, Personal Growth

    1. JHDr. James Hollis1:19:37

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:19:37

       Earlier, you d- you described the, the painful work, sometimes painful work of really addressing what one wants and really getting in touch with one's soul, psyche.

    3. JHDr. James Hollis1:19:48

       Mm-hmm.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman1:19:49

       Um, and how society, or we think society, might not approve of that, and yet when I think about popular culture-

    5. JHDr. James Hollis1:19:59

       Mm-hmm.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman1:19:59

       ... um, oftentimes, it's the people that seem to be living in their own truth that are most celebrated.

    7. JHDr. James Hollis1:20:08

       That's true.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman1:20:08

       Like there's something about the, the crowd, I've shifted from mob to crowd here to make it sound more benevolent, but, but it's still a mob that cheers on the person who really seems to be in their, we say full expression or living in their truth, but who just comes out and says like, "Yeah, I don't, I don't really care what they're saying about me or what people think. I know me. I know my own goodness, my own intention, my own, um, mission, and the people close to me do." Hopefully they have people close to them. And we say, "Yeah, like go." It's inspiring.

    9. JHDr. James Hollis1:20:46

       Yes. That's why I said earlier, many of the people in history that we would admire had difficult lives, but we admire them because they stuck to some value that was central to who they were, and they lived that maybe at great cost, but they lived that through whatever suffering they had to, to trans- to, to experience. Um, again, from outside, we don't know, do we, when we see s- some cultural figure out there. Uh, may- maybe they're manipulative. May- maybe they're caught in a complex of some kind. We don't know from outside. You, you have to say, I mean, one of the shadow issues is how often people will live through a celebrity or live through a pop figure in some way, maybe imitate that person. Uh, again, for a child, that's natural and normal. On the other hand, uh, sooner or later you have to say, "But my journey's a different journey. Maybe they're living theirs, but am I living mine?" And it, I don't mean this in any grandiose way. I don't mean that they have to go out and become something that's noted in the society, but to live in accord with something that is wishing it's its, um, expression through us. That's why I said the final question in life is, is what is wanting to live in this world through me rather than what do I want or what do my complexes want? Because they're noisy chatterers in there. You know, I had a, a, a dear friend from another state write to me just yesterday, and, um, he's in semi-retirement now and has been dealing with some health issues, and, uh, he said, "Oh, now that I'm not distracted, I have time to work on all the goblins of the past that I left behind." And he's an analyst. So it's not like we get rid of these things. They're lifelong. This is why Jung said we can't solve these things, but we can outgrow them. There's a big difference. You know, you become larger than what happened to you, for example. You become larger than that voice inside of you that says, "You can do this, but you can't do that." Um, and over time, you know, something inside of you is wishing that growth and pushing that, and again, pathologizes when that's blocked. So people can be doing all the right things as defined by their values and their environment, and it violates something inside. That's why we can be "successful and achieve things" and it still feels empty. There's no there there. You know, you get to the top of the ladder and you realize there's no there there. And that happens so often in our culture. Um, I, I remember one of the, um, fiscal figures in the late, uh, 20th century who had a personal fortune of $400 million, and he was asked what was his philosophy of life? And he said, "Well, at the end of life, the person with the biggest pile wins." And I remember thinking, "How infantile is that?" This was a smart man, an el- elder statesman in his field, ultimately went to prison because of some things. Um, but that's the philosophy of the sandbox. "I have the biggest pile of sand, I've won." No, you haven't won. You're dead, and it's a pile of sand. What are you talking about? And yet this is what drove the man's life and obviously drove him across s- enough lines that it got him into, into legal troubles sooner or later. And again, I say that without judgment. I'm just saying here's an example of a very achieved person who's been living an infantile philosophy, and as such, something else causes him to pay greatly for that.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman1:24:22

        Yeah. Well, I certainly can say that, um, despite having pursued work with a lot of vigor and career, that without question, friendships and relationships are the most important thing. There's just no question, right? The, uh, especially when things get hard.

    11. JHDr. James Hollis1:24:41

        That's right.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman1:24:41

        You know, I, I actually, I actually have a list in this very book, I won't flip to it now, of the people that I'm just really blessed to call close friends, like real friends that you can count on. And to me it seems, and I've always, and, uh, my sister, I have an older sister, and she always said, "You've always been a pack animal." I've always had, uh-

    13. JHDr. James Hollis1:24:59

        Mm-hmm.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:25:00

        ... um, big groups of, of, uh, biggish groups of friends, and it's something I've invested in heavily, sometimes to the expense of other things, um, including work and other relationships. But, um, but the notion that, um, yeah, that material things or that the, uh, opinions of strangers would somehow fill us, that to me is like the most foreign concept.

    15. JHDr. James Hollis1:25:23

        Sure.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman1:25:23

        Like, that's, that's the, the most foreign concept. But, um, but clearly some people operate on those metrics. That's like-

    17. JHDr. James Hollis1:25:29

        Of course.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman1:25:30

        And my guess is that they have a, a, um, a re- a reward horizon...... that is, you know, tacked to whatever it is the algorithms are that get them that thing. And so, it must feed some reward mechanism that has them distracted enough, like locked into this one mode of time perception. You know, just hit the mile mark, hit the mile mark, hit the mile mark, so that they're not aware. But when you take somebody like that who's been doing that for a lifetime and you say, "Wait, you know, you're on this track going around and around and accruing trophies, but actually that track doesn't go anywhere, doesn't lead you into the world."

    19. JHDr. James Hollis1:26:02

        That's right.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman1:26:03

        My guess is that they- they just, they've been doing it so long that they're like an animal that's just been, you know-

    21. JHDr. James Hollis1:26:08

        That's right.

    22. AHAndrew Huberman1:26:09

        ... uh, digging a trench in- in its zoo-confined-

    23. JHDr. James Hollis1:26:12

        Sure.

    24. AHAndrew Huberman1:26:12

        ... cage.

    25. JHDr. James Hollis1:26:13

        Which is something I'm finding with a lot of the men that I see. Uh, I'm- I'm happening to see right now in my practice, uh, several men between, uh, 60 and 80, and, uh, one's 82. Um, and of course, they've been conditioned to work. And then suddenly, you know, on Monday morning, you don't have to stop and think of who you are. You get up and you go to work, and you do what you've done all these years. And then suddenly, you don't do that. What are you gonna do? Well, you say, "Well, I'm gonna go play golf every day." Well, okay, go do that. But typically, within three or four months, the depression comes. And they'll think about, "Well, I need to get back into doing this or get doing that," you see. So often, we find people defined by exactly that kind of mentality. "I've finished the first lap, so what do I do? Run another lap, and run another lap." And then you realize you keep coming back to the same starting point. That's why I say it's not what you do, it's what it's in service to inside that makes a difference. So, is that person being successful by external standards? Yes, whatever that means. Does that mean that their psyche's gonna cooperate and give them that genuine sense of satisfaction in something? No, it won't. It's autonomous. It's not going to get co-opted into that. Um, and sooner or later, you know, chickens come home to roost, and then you have a depression, as I experienced, and- and/or you- you find your relationships are in tatters all around you. So, sooner or later, I mean, (laughs) no revelation on my part, nature will express itself. And if, uh, if we live long enough, then- then everything that we've pushed underground is be- is gonna be coming up.

19. 1:27:59 – 1:37:33

    Men, Alcohol, “Stoic Man”, Loneliness, Fear & Longing

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:27:59

       You mentioned men in particular, so now would probably be a good time to, um, ask about men in particular. You wrote Under Saturn's Shadow, which is how I initially learned about your work, and then I listened to some of your, uh, lectures online. I'm still in the process of reading your, um, other books. But, um, let's talk about archetypes, stereotypes of men and women, um, with the intention, of course, of, um, better understanding what's real as opposed to what's stereotype. (laughs) Um, so, in the, um, let's call it the 1930s, '40s, '50s, '60s view of men in the United States and elsewhere, there was this notion of kind of like the stoic, uh, and work, and, um, uh, duty, and, um, and to some extent, uh, a fair amount of mystique, right? Like it wasn't really cl- because with, um, fewer words, uh, we have less awareness at least of what people are saying. Who knows what they're thinking, whether or not they talk a lot or not. Um, but there was this idea of- of the, um, the male as somebody who did stuff, maybe thought about it, but didn't really talk about it much. Um, nowadays, things have changed.

Episode duration: 2:39:47