Huberman LabHow to Improve Your Teeth & Oral Microbiome for Brain & Body Health | Dr. Staci Whitman
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,004 words- 0:00 – 2:04
Dr. Staci Whitman
- AHAndrew Huberman
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Staci Whitman. Dr. Staci Whitman is a functional dentist with expertise treating both adult and pediatric patients. She focuses on oral health as a key feature of overall gut health and a powerful modulator of brain longevity, heart health, hormones, and fertility in both men and in women. Today, we discuss many of the common myths about tooth and gum care and how to use specific nutrition, breathing, and cleaning methods to repair cavities, whiten teeth, and freshen breath while at the same time improving the oral microbiome. This is very important because as Dr. Whitman explains, most of the things that people do in pursuit of better tooth health and appearance and fresh breath actually damage their oral microbiome and indeed can lead to serious cardiovascular issues. So, today we discuss how to brush, how to floss. I know we've all heard that we need to brush and floss, but Dr. Whitman explains exactly how to do those so that they are of the maximum benefit for our tooth health, gum health, and oral health generally. We also discuss the science and benefits of things like tongue scraping and oil pulling, and we discuss fluoride, which, of course, is a very controversial and timely topic nowadays. It's a very interesting conversation that I believe everyone, young, old, parents, and kids need to be aware of. We also discuss treating things like tongue ties, deviated septums, canker sores, and more. By the end of today's episode, you'll have the most up-to-date knowledge about how to take care of your oral health, both for aesthetic reasons and, of course, to reduce cavities and gum disease, and in doing so, how to support your brain and heart longevity. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Staci Whitman.
- 2:04 – 5:01
Oral Health & Oral Microbiome
- AHAndrew Huberman
Dr. Staci Whitman, welcome.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Thank you, Andrew.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'm super excited to talk about oral health from all perspectives. Your public-facing content, especially on Instagram, has completely transformed the way I think about this thing that I call my mouth, that people think of as their teeth and their mouth and their breath and their tongue and all this stuff, as a key site for evaluating and maintaining health of my brain, my body, and today you'll make it clear as to why that's the case. I'd like to just start by looking at this oral health thing through the lens of what I think most people think of when they hear the words oral health, which is people want, it seems, white-ish or very white teeth, depending on their preference. They want fresh breath or at least to not have bad-smelling breath, and they want their mouth to sort of feel good, right? The question I have is what are some of the things that many, many people do in trying to have white teeth, fresh breath that actually are very destructive for our teeth and our oral microbiome? And if we go through, uh, that entry point into this conversation, then we can get into some of the specifics of why that is. So, what's something that you see many people doing in terms of trying to have bright white teeth that actually is harming their teeth?
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Sure. Great question. Great way to start off. So, I first want to commend you and thank you for including the oral microbiome and oral health as one of the pillars of health. Uh, that means a great deal, and it has a lot to do with this answer. So unfortunately, we have been taught that we need to carpet bomb the mouth. We need to add astringents and alcohols and foaming agents and really strong essential oils to clean, disinfect, and to freshen the breath. But we're really... What we're doing with these products is damaging our delicate microbiome, which can make things far worse. So much of oral health is a less-is-more approach, and it's not so product heavy. It should be more focused on diet and lifestyle, like anything with health. Uh, unfortunately, dentistry has been separated and compartmentalized out of the body like much of medicine. You know, we s- we- we're so specialized and sub-specialized, um, and dentistry is included in that, and we need to remember it's all interconnected. And what we're doing to the mouth, whether it be strong toothpaste, mouthwashes, um, certain gums, and even what we're eating, um, and how we're breathing can, can really do a number on our oral health. And so it's taking a different perspective and it's a bit of a mindset shift to really get us back to optimization.
- 5:01 – 8:45
Oral Healthcare Ingredients, Sodium Lauryl Sulfate (SLS); Canker Sores
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
- AHAndrew Huberman
So do you think that most of the common over-the-counter toothpastes, um, while they smell min- minty or pepperminty and taste minty and pepperminty, um, are they effectively cleaning teeth?
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And are they causing any damage to teeth by virtue of what they have in them?
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
It really depends on the ingredients. So I'd like people to start looking at their oral health care products like they're starting to look at food labels. We should be reading the ingredients and understanding why they're there and what they're doing, where are they sourced from. But certainly, that, I think so many of us feel it has to burn and foam to be effective. Um, what is, what is toothbrushing? What it, what is it really doing? Well, you're disrupting the biofilm, which is really the plaque or the bacteria that are adhered to your teeth, and so all these extra bells and whistles, it's- it's sort of extra credit. But if you're perfectly in balance, we shouldn't need all these stripping agents and strong mints and things. So, um, for example, sodium lauryl sulfate is a foaming agent, but it also can be really disruptive to the oral mucosa and can lead to oral ulceration, so that's a common ingredient that causes foaming that I would argue we do not need. Your toothpaste shouldn't foam, nor should it burn. Uh, essential oils, we think, "Oh, those are-"... natural, they're, they're healthy, right? Well, they're, many are very antimicrobial and so they could be damaging the healthy bacteria in your mouth. So that's where that, that strong burn after many toothpastes, y- you really don't need that. And if your breath, uh, is so bad or you have halitosis that you feel the need for that, then I would argue, well, let's dig deeper. Why is your breath so imbalanced? There's probably something else going on. So I really encourage people to start learning about their products. Um, I think we just give dentistry and teeth just, we push it to the side. It's kind of an afterthought many times and just like we're prioritizing skincare, shampoo, things that we're putting on our bodies, we need to be focused on the ingredients in our oral healthcare products too.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, especially since we're literally putting it into our body.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Sure.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Not just on the surface of our body. What was the foaming agent again? That-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Sodium lauryl sulfate.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Okay.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
And the problem is there's derivatives, so some cleaner versions might have coconut-derived, um, SLS derivatives. And many people will do okay with those, but a common complaint I see in my office, um, are oral ulcerations and the first thing I think of is what's in your toothpaste? Does it have SLS or a derivative? Because some, we're all different and some people have more sensitivities and, and will react more to those.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Are oral ulcerations canker sores?
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Or are canker sores-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Aphthous ulcers or ... Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm. So if one gets a canker sore, what does that reflect typically? Um, is it, let, let's assume the toothpaste doesn't have anything to do with it.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Is that a disruption in the microbiome? Is it from a, a physical injury, like a bite to the gum? Um-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Could be all.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Okay.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
So it could be, um, secondary to trauma certainly. It can be viral related, so the herpes virus often will result in, uh, oral ulcerations.
- AHAndrew Huberman
HSV-1.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Um, but also, and this is oft- not on many people's radars, you know, the, the mouth is the gateway into the body and the mouth is the gut. I want people to start thinking of it that way. So what happens in the mouth can be a reflection of what's happening in the gut. And so a lot of times when I have patients that come in with recurrent aphthous ulcers or ulcerations, that can be a sign of Crohn's or celiac, um, IBS, like something going on deeper within that we need to be evaluating, food sensitivities, et cetera.
- 8:45 – 11:38
Sponsors: Eight Sleep & BetterHelp
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
- AHAndrew Huberman
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- 11:38 – 19:14
Cavities & Teeth De-/Remineralization, Fluoride
- AHAndrew Huberman
week. This would probably be a good time to talk about the whole concept that teeth can essentially build themselves and destroy themselves independent of sugar intake and, um, uh, other factors. So i- if you would, could you just, just briefly walk us through, you know, th- this whole business of mineralization-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... um, and demineralization of teeth?
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
'Cause I find this so interesting and later I'll share a little bit, um, full disclosure, uh, I have a very complicated, um, oral health history (laughs) . Um, and had I known what you're about to tell us, I think I would've spared myself-A ton of pain.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Potentially. Um, I'm sorry to hear that, but we'll-
- AHAndrew Huberman
No.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
... we'll unpack that.
- AHAndrew Huberman
You weren't my dentist unfortunately, so.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
No, I have- I have stories to share too we'll get- we'll get to as well. I think many people do and that's the problem. Um, so I wasn't taught this in dental school interestingly enough, so this is something I learned later, um, out in practice and, um, it's the concept that your teeth can naturally re-mineralize if you have a small cavity. But let's un- let's start further back. So your teeth are constantly going through demineralization and re-mineralization, and this is very natural and any time we put anything into our mouth besides arguably neutral water, and this has to do with pH, um, so f- any time we eat, our mouth is the beginning of the digestive system, so we release amylase, which is an enzyme that helps break down our food and in doing that the pH drops. This is how we start digestion. When that happens, we lose minerals in our teeth. The acid will leach out calcium, phosphorus and minerals from our teeth, um, but the- the concern is we don't want it to stay in that acidic state for too long, in that demineralized state for too long, um, because if we allow our body to do its thing, our saliva will naturally re-mineralize our teeth. This is all part of a healthy balance system. So our saliva is this golden elixir of our body and it contains immune cells and enzymes but also the minerals that we should need if balanced to create that re-mineralization. So there's something called the Stefon curve and, um, essentially it- it's showing us how our mouth will become acidic and neutral and acidic and neutral throughout the day as we eat. The problem is in modern society, we tend to be snacking and grazing and sipping all of the time, so we're not giving our mouths enough of a break, enough of an opportunity to re-mineralize, so many of us are staying in this state of constant acidity and demineralization. Um, but what's interesting is, so if you have a small cavity or- or lesion that hasn't yet truly cavitated, that, and a cavity means a hole, so if you look on an x-ray and I see a shadow on your tooth, it's called an incipient lesion, those, if they're still in the enamel, those can, quote/unquote, "heal" or re-mineralize, and this is where you would need to work with, let's say, a functional or biological dentist to understand how deep your cavity is. Once it becomes a hole, generally you do need some sort of treatment. Um, but our body is meant to s- for stability, you know, it knows what to do, but how you eat, um, how frequently you're eating, and then we can get into this, but how you're breathing and certainly the products you're using and your hygiene practices all factor in as well.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So my understanding is that the minerals that make up teeth, uh, are not the same materials that are put into a lot of common tooth care products. So, uh, without getting into a discussion right now about fluoride in water, we will get to that conversation a little bit later, but in order to frame that properly when we are arrive there, could you explain why it is that fluoride is in most toothpastes-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... when basically we don't have fluoride in our teeth at birth?
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
That's right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But there are other minerals in our teeth that certain toothpastes have.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And, you know, so why would we give an artificial substance to our teeth? And maybe you could explain demineralization, re-mineralization in the context of fluoride and-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... uh, these other minerals.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
So we have hydroxyapatite, which is essentially calcium and phosphorous, in our teeth. Uh, our enamel is about 90% hydroxyapatite. The dentin, which is the layer below the enamel through the enamel, is about 60 and our bone has hydroxyapatite too, about 60%.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Our- our limb bones?
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm. All bone.
- AHAndrew Huberman
60% hydroxyapatite?
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yes, which is calcium and phosphorous. Our saliva will also have calcium and phosphorus floating around too. So what fluoride does is it re- it throws off the hydroxyl group in the- in hydroxyapatite and- and so it changes it from hydroxyapatite to fluorapatite. So it restructures it a bit. When it does this, the bonds generally are considered stronger, um, and the dental crystalline structure is more densely packed so it's known to be more acid resistant, and so we can get into the history of how they discovered this, but essentially fluoride was put into toothpaste in about the 1960s. It became very popularized. So that is why many dentists love fluoride, is that you're using it and it makes your teeth more acid resistant and also it has some antimicrobial effects too. The issue I have, and we can unpack this more later, is that it's not super selective, so it's not only selecting anaerobes or pathogenic bacteria but it potentially could be damaging beneficial bacteria too. Um, so that's why tooth- toothpaste has fluoride in it. It also will lower the critical pH, so the critical pH is the pH of which your enamel will start to demineralize or degrade, and for enamel it's 5.5 and then for dentin it's closer to 6.5. So what fluoride does is it raises the- the pH resistance.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I see, so for people that aren't familiar with, uh, pH as a- a measure of how alkaline or acidic a given environment or something is, um, and so what you're telling me is that fluoride makes teeth ultra strong.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It's not a mineral that teeth normally see. Like if a child never used flor- uh, fluoridated toothpaste or drank fluoridated water they basically, unless they happen to drink from a stream with fluoride in it, um...Their teeth would rely on hydroxyapatite to re-mineralize. But we put fluoride into toothpaste and into water, and that allows teeth to become even stronger and even more acid-resistant.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yes. Some out there argue the enamel structure actually is weaker. This is very nuanced, but generally, the dental community believes it's a stronger version of enamel. Some will argue when you look under scanning electron microscopy, um, the crystalline structure can be more wave-like and potentially the bonds could break more easily. But generally, you know, topical fluoride does work. However, it is no match for a poor diet, you know? So all of this really comes back to what you're eating.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
So it will make you less at risk for cavities, but it's, it's not a shoo-in. Like, it's not for sure going to prevent decay.
- 19:14 – 21:51
Cavities, Tool: Meal Frequency, Fasting
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
- AHAndrew Huberman
What are the times in each 24-hour cycle when our teeth are repairing themselves? So like in the middle of the night, provided somebody's asleep, they're not eating.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
They're not drinking unless they get up for a moment and have a sip of water or something. Um, in between meals, they're not eating if I just sort of naturally intermittent fast, I generally eat my first bite of food somewhere around 11:00 AM, sometimes a little earlier. But, um, but that's just habit. It sort of falls under this intermittent fasting kind of thing. So I and many people have stretches of time of anywhere from 3 to 14 hours when we're not ingesting any food or caloric beverages. Is that when re-minerali- re-mineralization occurs? It's a tricky word.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
It's a tough one. It's a tough one.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Re-mineralization. We'll have to do a separate-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Re-mineralization.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Right. Oh, that's right, you got to put the accent on re-mineralization.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Uh-huh.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Thank you. That helps.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Uh-huh. (laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, you said that before. (laughs)
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, thank you. Uh, is that when our teeth repair themselves?
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah. That's, this is great. This is important. So generally after you eat, you know, as we, I mentioned, your, your mouth will become more acidic. Um, after about 20 to 30 minutes, your saliva will naturally start to buffer. So it will start to rise and raise the pH up. I like to see us eating more on a schedule. So generally every two hours or so is when we'll get full optimal re-mineralization. The issue is we are a society on the go and we're grabbing crackers and chips and granola bars and we're eating and nibbling and sipping on frappuccinos, so we never allow that re-mineralization to take its full effect. So yes, when you're not putting food or drink, in theory, in your mouth, your, your saliva, if it's optimized, and we should talk about that as well, um, we'll be re-mineralizing. But unfortunately, I do feel so many of us are just not in balance. You know, we're dehydrated, we're mineral deficient, we're calcium deficient, we're phosphorus deficient, um, and we're mouth breathing, so the pH is, is changing just from mouth breathing can make the mouth more acidic. And so there's a lot of factors at play, but in theory, if I can make one suggestion to someone out there who might be struggling with cavities, I want to know not only what are you eating, but how frequently are you eating it? And this is a great reason why, from a dental standpoint, fasting, intermittent fasting or, you know, time-restricted eating is a great way to combat dental decay. It's also better on gut health, um, as well. You know, the migrating, um, complex, the cleanse ability, just giving things a break and a rest is really important.
- 21:51 – 27:41
Sugar, “Dissolvable” Carbs & Cavities, Tools: Feed the Rainbow, Clean Diet
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
- AHAndrew Huberman
I grew up hearing that sugar causes cavities. Does sugar cause cavities? And when we say sugar, of course, all the biologists and people with a nutrition background roll their eyes because sugar is a very broad statement.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Sure.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Right? That there are simple sugars, there's fructose, there's sucrose, there's glucose, there's all sorts of d- variation within the simple and complex carbohydrates. But when I, when I'm saying sugar, I'm thinking about foods that taste sweet-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... or that contain sugar that's masked by other flavors. I just, for, for sake of simplicity.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Like added sugar.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Like added sugar.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I mean, now if you buy a cracker, typically if you look at the package, there's some sugar in there, which is ridiculous, but that's a whole-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... other discussion.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But, um, or we could just even say starchy carbohydrates.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Fermentable carbohydrates is what I like to say.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Fermentable carbohydrate.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
But that gets kind of nerdy. So n- not directly. It's really acid that causes cavities. So what sugar does, and I like everyone to think of flour like sugar. This is also very important, uh, because the bacteria in our mouth, they thrive, the pathogenic bacteria, they thrive on sugar. But flour will act like sugar in the mouth, so they'll also thrive on, on flours. So the crackers, the-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Bread.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
... the breads. Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Even a good sourdough bread?
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Well, the issue-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Do I have to give up sourdough bread?
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Is, I like sourdough too. The issue is more contact time. So things that are really sticky and, um, dried, I would argue. So crackers or toast.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Chips.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Chips.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
I mean, think about if you take a handful of Goldfish crackers. I haven't done that in a long time, but imagine that, it's all throughout your teeth, in between the teeth, down in the grooves. It's sticky. It's just a smorgasbord for the bacteria. And so what do the bacteria do when they metabolize the sugar or the flour? They release acid. And so if that food substrate is stuck against the tooth for a long period of time and these foods are also hyper-palatable, so we're meant to be just snacking and grazing, hitting the bliss point, you know, grab a handful, go do something, come back, grab another handful, you're just constantly feeding that bacteria, so your mouth is staying constantly acidic. So it's truly the acid that causes cavities. But I would argue that sugar or flour is kind of the catalyst that feeds the bacteria to create that ba- imbalance.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Is it fair to say, I know you prefer the term fermented carbohydrates or, um, trying to, for most people who don't think in terms of starches versus fiber are simple, although nowadays people are more versed in that sort of thing-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... I think of, um, carbohydrates or foods for that matter, that if you put them in your mouth and you just kind of kept them there for a little bit, that they would dissolve.
- 27:41 – 34:34
White Teeth, Bleaching, Hydroxyapatite, Mouth Breathing
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
- AHAndrew Huberman
Is it fair to say that if one does that, either a child or an adult, that their oral microbiome will not, will not only get healthier, but that their teeth will get whiter? And the reason I keep bringing this up is I think a lot of people want white teeth, or at least not yellow teeth.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Sure.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, having been involved in the public-facing health education business for a little while now, I realize that nothing that is, um, encouraged to be good for us that takes away from the way that people want to look-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
...and feel about how they look gets much traction. So what I, what I like about what you're telling us is that all the things of eating mostly unprocessed or minimally processed foods, those are going to be good for our entire body, great that it's great for our oral microbiome, probably is good for our whole body because of its effects on the microbiome, at least in part. Uh, but what makes teeth white and will supporting the oral microbiome make our teeth whiter?
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And by the way, there are some folks out there whose teeth need to be less white, in my opinion. Um... (laughs)
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Agree. Totally agree.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Listen, now we're being somewhat facetious, but not really. Um, but I think most people would like to have teeth that are, uh, would be, uh, characterized as mostly white.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs) Yeah.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
We want to look good. I mean, I appreciate and respect that. I do think we've moved a little away from reality with some of that, so I agree with you, I think there's, there are, um, teeth out there that could, could not be quite so bright, but you do you. I think everyone should do what makes them happy. So what makes teeth white? So interestingly, if you look at a baby tooth next to an adult tooth, and I get this call all of the time from parents, so the child loses their first baby tooth, the adult tooth starts to come in, and adult teeth are quite a bit darker than baby teeth, which are very white and bright, and they're worried, "What's wrong with my child's teeth? They're so yellow." That's actually a very natural shade of enamel and why is that? It ha- all has to do with that crystalline structure and the mineralization. So baby teeth are less mineralized and the crystalline structure is a little more haphazardly arranged, it's not quite as organized. So instead of, like, Lincoln Logs lined up, it's more like pick-up-sticks to some degree. Why is that? Baby teeth are meant to resorb, dissolve, and fall out. Okay? So this is why baby teeth are also much more susceptible to decay. So the whiteness is coming how the light reflects and refracts off the teeth, which is a lot of times why you'll, why you'll hear if you use hydroxyapatite or even coconut oil is changing the surface, surface modification, so it's changing the way light reflects and refracts off that tooth to make it seem whiter and brighter. Now certainly with adult teeth, if you're using bleaching agents, you know, hydrogen peroxide or, um, carbamide peroxide, some of the stronger bleachings, that's actually penetrating into the tooth and changing the structure, pulling out stain.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Do people do that? They gargle with hydrogen peroxide?
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Well, they do bleaching trays essentially.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Oh.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Um, I don't... Well, people will rinse with hydrogen peroxide, yes, and it will make your teeth brighter and whiter, but I'm telling you, it's going to do a number on your oral microbiome. So I suggest it very, in a very limited fashion.
- AHAndrew Huberman
The only time I ever had a bad canker sore-...was because I, I gargled with, um, 50% water, 50%, uh, hydro-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Oh, interesting.
- AHAndrew Huberman
...hydrogen peroxide because an acupuncturist recommended it.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Uh, he looked at my tongue and then he said, "You should do that." You know? And then I did that. And then, you know, four or five days later, I had this, like, you know, nickel-sized canker sore on the roof of my mouth.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Too much.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And I was like, "Ugh." And, um, I will say, and I have no product affiliation whatsoever, but, um, to any, any specific products by... But by switching to hydroxyapatite-containing toothpaste, my teeth, uh, they definitely have gotten whiter.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I drink a lot of-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
...yerba mate and coffee and, um, and I brush. But that, that was a, it was a, it was sort of a progressive issue of my teeth dimming. Um, so that's been, been great. I also used to get cavities fairly often when I was a kid. We can... I'll talk about that a little bit later. Um, but since switching to hydroxyapatite toothpaste, I've had, like, stellar-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
...um, dental reviews, assuming my dentist is looking carefully.
- 34:34 – 36:20
Antibiotics, Gut & Oral Microbiome, Tool: Probiotics
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
- AHAndrew Huberman
That raises a question I've never thought about before. So if one takes a course of antibiotics, um, typically the, the advice is to, um, ingest low-sugar kombucha, to have some-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
...Bulgarian or Greek yogurt, like repopulate the, the gut with healthy, uh, with the substrates for healthy microbiota. Um, we now know, because you've told us, that the mouth is the gut-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
...which makes perfect sense. We are but a series of tubes, uh, so I-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
...always teach in my developmental neurobiology class, but it's true.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
It's true.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But in embryology, you learn that we're basically born of a bunch of tubes that are going to do their thing-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
...in development. Um, but the digestive tract obviously starts with the mouth. So is it the case, um, uh, therefore, that we, we should be repopulating the oral microbiome if we take a course of antibiotics?
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yes. Yes. Very commonly, um, patients' parents will report, "Gosh, my child just finished this course of antibiotics and now their teeth are stained," or, "Their gums are inflamed," or, "They just seem off." And it usually is because they've wiped out a lot of the healthy bacteria too.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
You know, it's all connected. So I do suggest my patients, if I have to write antibiotics, which I try to avoid, but sometimes we have to, that they, they do take a high-quality probiotic and increase their pro- probiotic-rich fermented foods as well.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So a high-quality probiotic pill.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Generally.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah. 'Cause it's hard to get in enough, especially in kids, I would argue. You know, kids aren't usually eating a lot of sauerkraut and kimchi and natto and...
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
But, you know, you could do kefir, yogurt, as you mentioned, low-sugar kombucha, et cetera. But usually a high-quality gut probiotic will have some benefit to the oral microbiome. But they also do have oral, oral probiotics to focus on the bacteria of the mouth.
- 36:20 – 39:54
Mouthwash, Alcohol, Astringents, Cardiovascular Risk, Bad Breath
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
- AHAndrew Huberman
What about mouthwashes?
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, I've never liked them. Um, they feel... They burn-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
...for one. And then I learned some years ago, and this is just kind of fun to cue to, years ago, it must have been, like, eight, 10 years ago, I heard, I think on the Tim Ferriss podcast, somebody said, "Oh, you know, uh, mouthwashes will nuke certain chemicals that are essential for cardiovascular function. And so don't, don't use them. Don't use min- mouth strips. Don't use any of that stuff." And at that time, that was considered like-... clear, quote-unquote "pseudoscience."
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Nobody li-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Outrageous.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Like, alternative science, outrageous.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Sure.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Now we know-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah. (laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
... this is actually true.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And this always, you know, this always, um, delights me and scares me at the same time that many of the things that right now people go, "Oh, that's pseudoscience." I... Like, creatine seems to be a big thing right now. 10 years ago it was only the-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Sure.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... the gym, gym rats-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... that were talking about it, and now everyone's like, "Creatine, creatine."
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Everybody needs it.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So, uh, what's the story on, on mouthwashes and mouth strips and-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... mints and things of that sort?
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
That again, like people just want to have fresh breath, or at least they don't want to be the person with the bad breath.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Sure.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
So Listerine and those stronger rinses in particular, uh, they generally contain alcohol, astringents, really strong antimicrobials. You know, it says, kills 99.9% of germs. Well, I think we've learned we're over-disinfecting. You know, this is why asthma is up, eczema, allergies are up in our children. We now are saying get into the dirt, get, you know, get exposed to microbes and things. Um, so we're carpet bombing the mouth. What we've learned through the, the data, and you're right, there are studies to show that chronic habitual use of these, uh, mouthwashes, including prescription strength mouthwash like chlorhexidine is a common one, it can damage the, uh, nitrate-reducing bacteria. So we have bacteria in the dorsum of our tongue specifically, that is essentially your tongue, that reduces nitrate to nitrite, which is a precursor to nitric oxide. Nitric oxide is a molecule that is really important for cardiovascular health and vasodilation and immune health. Um, so if we're indiscriminately carpet bombing the mouth with these really strong astringents and rinses, we can be affecting our cardiovascular health, and there are studies to show it can increase blood pressure and, and potentially cause cardiovascular issues. So when I hear someone say, "But my breath is so bad, you know, I have to use this multiple times a day," I immediately think, well, gosh, why is your breath so bad? It's normal to have bad breath after you eat a garlic, you know, garlic hummus or have a cup of coffee. But if it's chronic halitosis or bad breath, I'm curious, do you have periodontal disease, which is a chronic inflammatory, um, issue in the mouth which can have a slew of downstream effects, which we should discuss, um, in a bit. Um, or do you have an infection? It could be a sinus infection, post-nasal drip. Do you have tonsil stones or tonsilar infect- infection? Like, what else is going on in your mouth where you feel you need this multiple times a day to even feel like you can present yourself in public? Um, really strong essential oils and mints, again, I, I would be cautious with that. Every once in a while throwing in a piece of gum or a mint, of course. Um, it's really the habitual use of these things that can be damaging.
- 39:54 – 42:21
Sponsors: AG1 & Joovv
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor AG1. AG1 is an all-in-one vitamin mineral probiotic drink with adaptogens. I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring this podcast. The reason I started taking AG1 and the reason I still take AG1 is because it is the highest quality and most complete foundational nutritional supplement. What that means is that AG1 ensures that you're getting all the necessary vitamins, minerals, and other micronutrients to form a strong foundation for your daily health. AG1 also has probiotics and prebiotics that support a healthy gut microbiome. Your gut microbiome consists of trillions of microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune system status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more. So I've consistently found that when I take AG1 daily, my digestion is improved, my immune system is more robust, and my mood and mental focus are at their best. In fact, if I could take just one supplement, that supplement would be AG1. If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer. They'll give you five free travel packs plus a year supply of vitamin D3 K2 with your order of AG1. Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim this special offer. Today's episode is also brought to us by Joovv. Joovv makes medical grade red light therapy devices. Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast, it is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology. Now, in addition to sunlight, red light and near infrared light sources have been shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health, including faster muscle recovery, improved skin health and wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, even mitochondrial function, and improving vision itself. What sets Joovv lights apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy device is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning specific wavelengths of red light and near-infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations. Personally, I use the Joovv whole body panel about three to four times a week, and I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel. If you'd like to try Joovv, you can go to Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman. Joovv is offering an exclusive discount to all Huberman Lab listeners with up to $400 off Joovv products. Again, that's Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman to get up to $400 off.
- 42:21 – 47:23
Saliva, Dry Mouth, Salivary Analysis, Tools: Hydration; Nasal Breathing
- AHAndrew Huberman
Okay, so those are some don'ts. What are some things that we can do to improve the chemistry of our saliva and our mouth? And, um, just to, uh, in full disclosure here, uh, won't be the disclosure most people are, are anticipating, what I'm trying to get at here is all the chemical aspects of, the chemistry of the mouth.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Like, um, 'cause when I think about biology, just because of my training, I think, you know, you've got chemical forces and you have mechanical forces.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Like, there's stuff that literally, like, moves or you could, you know, chip a tooth or things that you shouldn't do to protect your teeth, and then there's how to create the right chemistry environment.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yep.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So that's really what we're talking about here, and I'm trying to figure out, you know, how could I have, um-... the best possible saliva.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah. Love it.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I want to be the person with the best possible saliva.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Good spit.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah. Good spit.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Don't underestimate your spit.
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs)
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
(laughs) It's true. It's the golden elixir of your body.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So if I were to put spit into like a, uh, uh, under the microscope or under... and then also take some of my spit and put it in mass spec and separate out all the goodies that are in there, wh- g- just give us a, a sense of the kinds of, of goodies that are in spit.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
What's in there?
- AHAndrew Huberman
'Cause it just looks like a bunch of clear liquid to people, but-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Sure.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... blood looks like just a bunch of red liquid, and there's a lot of stuff in there, so.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
There's so much in it. I mean, it's so important. So it has, um, bacteria-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
... viruses, fung- fungi, like, all ki- protozoa, hopefully in the right ratios.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Um, so we want beneficial bacteria. You, we all have about 5% pathological bacteria. However, at that ratio, it may, those may not be pathological. Like, they are-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
... they are symbiotic at that point. We are still unpacking and learning more about the oral microbiome. But essentially, you'll have bacteria, um-
- AHAndrew Huberman
There's hormones. There's free cortisol.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
There's hormones. There's-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Cortisol's in our spit, folks.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yes.
- 47:23 – 54:19
Mouth vs. Nasal Breathing, Hard & Soft Tissue Issues
- AHAndrew Huberman
I really want to, um, not just double-click but really dive into that, no pun intended. Um, I do want to just ask because a, a subset of listeners will be interested in how they could get their saliva tested.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, I've never had my saliva tested. I will say that based on your teachings online, I've made an effort to drink more water in addition to, um, massive amounts of yerba mate-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
... and, and small amounts of coffee. Um, I've made an effort to... Well, I switched to a hydroxyapatite-containing toothpaste, um, which has been terrific for all sorts of reasons. I've, um, really emphasized nasal breathing. That's something I was into before through the sports performance world-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... because my friend, Brian Mackenzie, who's a human performance expert, was really big on this a while ago. And, um, and the healthiest my breathing and cardiovascular function ever was, uh, for me was when, um, something I don't suggest people do unless it's their profession, I was, uh, boxing for about a five-year span and I had a fitted mouthpiece and I would do my running, my road work with my mouthpiece and breathing through my nose.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, and that taught me to, like, really how to breathe correctly through my nose and it translated to switching to nasal breathing when I slept. I didn't sleep with a mouth guard in. Um, but I think that breathing through the nose is just so important for the reasons you're describing, James Nestor has described. And I will share this little factoid and then I'll, and then I'll, um, and then I'll shut up and n- and nasal breathe. Um, a friend of mine who is a physician at UCSF, he told me that the methamphetamine addicts that come in-... have terrible teeth. Everyone knows this, meth addicts-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... have terrible teeth. But do you know why it is? He works with the School of Dentistry.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
I do.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It's because they're mouth breathing.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Uh-huh. I've worked, I've worked with that population before.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Meth doesn't d- actually deteriorate the teeth, it's the fact that they're, they're, they're mouth breathers. And so, I find this fascinating. And then of course, the book Jaws, which was published by-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... Paul Ehrlich and Sandra Cahn-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Absolutely.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... my amazing colleagues at Stanford-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... years ago. And by the way, when they published that book, people said, "Oh, this is pseudoscience."
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
"This is crazy. You're saying nasal breathing epidemic of, you know, fear mongering." Well-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
It is.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... we now know this is a real thing.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
It's an epidemic. (laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
So, um-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So, how do you encourage kids and adults to switch from mouth breathing to nasal breathing?
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yes. This is a big part of my practice. So it, you, we need to understand the why, just like anything. Why are you a mouth breather? So humans are obligate nasal breathers, where we are meant to be breathing through our nose. Unfortunately, so many of us are mouth breathers. They estimate up to 50% of the population now breathes through their mouth. I personally think that's an underestimate with what I'm seeing in my practice. Um, so why is this? So the theory is, um, that ancestrally, we used to chew and masticate up to four hours a day. This active chewing, uh, it pushes forces out, it was actually what grows the face. The lateralization of the tongue, the tongue elevating, it would grow the jaws wide, the sinuses wide, including breastfeeding, okay? We now, flash forward 10, 12,000 years, okay? So we had the Agricultural Revolution where we went from hunter-gatherer society to agrarian, then the Industrial Revolution, we started milling and processing everything, everything's soft and mushy now. We used to chew four hours a day, we now chew four minutes a day. So there's very little, there's atrophy essentially.
- 54:19 – 1:00:42
Deviated Septum, Therapies, Kids & Adults, Mouth Breathing & Sleep Disorders
- AHAndrew Huberman
much plasticity is there of the sinuses? So let's say, um, somebody has a partially or severely deviated septum and they, they could get surgery, and I, I want to talk about some of the different surgeries. There's a, um, a balloon-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... uh, expansion thing that online it looks really cool. I, like, want to try this. Like-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
I really want this to happen to myself, so.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, they put the balloon up there-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... they inflate the balloon.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
And it's guided.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, it's-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
They do one that's guided.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
It's really cool.
- AHAndrew Huberman
They numb it and then they take it out and-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... (sighs) you know, this kind of thing.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Well, this is actually the appropriate way to do it, both, uh, in and out through the nose. But, um, if somebody makes the effort to nasal breathe, so maybe they mouth tape at night.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Or, um, I'm a big fan of shifting from any mouth breathing to nasal breathing by-... insisting that I nasal breathe while I do any cardio, unless I'm pushing really hard, and then I need to bring mouth-breathing into it. But I've noticed, just because I can measure snoring through, uh, Sleep, One and Eight Sleep, we can measure snoring that way, but even if you don't do that, there are other ways you can measure snoring with an app or-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... someone can tell you you're snoring. Um, so this isn't about a, a product per se. But if I force myself to nasal breathe, uh, during cardio workouts, especially kind of zone two, zone three stuff, translates to less mouth-breathing and snoring in sleep. So the question is, is, do the sinuses actually dilate? Or if you have a deviated septum, do you need it surgically or somehow otherw- otherwise repaired?
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
It depends on your age.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
So most facial development is done around the age of 10. So the, the issue, I would say, with traditional orthodontics, which is when you wait for all the baby teeth to fall out and then you put braces on, you can't control the, the modeling of the face, the mid-face, the jaws. Which is why we now are starting with, um, functional therapies as young as three or four years old with retainers. So in the middle of our palate is a suture filled with cartilage, and so with kids, it's really easy to manipulate and change facial development. If you make the jaws wider, not only is it improving airway, but the teeth will come in straight. Now they have room. The reason they come in crooked is there's not enough room for them to come in. It's important to note, the floor of the mouth, s- the roof, sorry, the roof of the mouth is the floor of the nose. So if you expand the palate, the sinuses will get wider. The septum's gonna upright. Everything's connected. Now as an adult, um, you, it's really hard to manipulate bone structure just through posturing and habit. There are myofunctional therapists which I, they're the best and they're really important in this conversation. Think of them like physical therapists for breathing, teaching you to keep your lips closed, your tongue up. All of this musculature is really important, toning it. Um, if you don't use it, you lose it. So if you're a mouth breather, your tongue will lay low. Your tongue's a muscle, it will get weak, it'll get flaccid. So we want to strengthen these muscles to help with lip seal and nasal breathing. But as an adult, if you do have a skeletal discrepancy, usually you need some sort of intervention. You're not gonna just be changing it through lip taping or how you're training or myofunctional therapy. And there are more conservative ways now besides true jaw surgery. There's, um, an appliance called the Homeoblock, which I know is what James Nestor use, you can read about it in his book, that will actually start to, to change facial structure. There's less invasive treatments. There's an MSZ appliance, it's a maxillary, maxillary skeletal expansion device. It, it does put these little mini screws in your palate, but it will pop the suture in adults, and this is-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yikes.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
... you really would have to want this because you're struggling so much. And people who aren't breathing well-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
... they're struggling. I think it's, it's the most important thing for health, is how you're breathing and how you're sleeping. And with children, if they're not breathing appropriately and they're waking up a lot, which is why I, it would be interesting to get some sort of product. On you, I'm just curious, do you get into deep sleep? Do you get into REM sleep? In-
- AHAndrew Huberman
I do.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
... in for ... Great.
- 1:00:42 – 1:01:50
Gum Health, Flossing; Sexual Health
- AHAndrew Huberman
have to do to convince the, um, male half of the audience to, um-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
... focus more on nasal breathing is to tell them, and to not use mouthwashes, is to tell them that, um, being a mouth breather will, uh, uh, give them sexual dysfunction-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... um, or will, uh, will, uh-... predispose them to sexual dysfunction, and they'll start, um, working on their nasal breathing.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Because of nitric oxide.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Because of nitric oxide. Right.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
So the paranasal sinuses is what will help produce nitric oxide too. So if you're breathing through your mouth not your nose, you're not getting enough nitric oxide, which is very important in sexual health. But also, we know men who have gum disease are 2.85 times more likely to have erectile dysfunction as well.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Wow. So...
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
So no bleeding gums. We do not want inflamed, bleeding gums. Um, flossing is something we haven't touched upon yet, but it's incredibly important, not only for cavity prevention, but gum health. Um, pink in the sink, any amount of bleeding is a sign of inflammation and it doesn't just stay in the body. It can impact the entire system. So, um, please take your gum health seriously, if for nothing else than for your sexual health.
- 1:01:50 – 1:05:53
Shifting to Nasal Breathing, Mouth Taping, Tools: 3-Minute Test, Kiss The Sky
- AHAndrew Huberman
Great message. So to shift over to nasal breathing, if somebody's really struggling with this, uh, do you, are you a fan of mouth taping?
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah. You want to make sure you can do so safely.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
So with kids, I always suggest they get screened by an airway-focused dentist, um, or potentially an otolaryngologist or an ENT. For adults, there is a test that you can do, um, it's the three-minute test. Can you breathe through your nose without panicking or feeling sympathetically challenged for three minutes? So you can either put water in your mouth, put a piece of paper, tape, tape your lips, and literally time yourself. Um, and if you can breathe through your nose successfully, then you, in theory, can safely lip tape. There are different tapes that you can do so you st- that they are open in the middle, so you can still off-gas or you feel less, it feels less invasive. Um, and what I suggest if people are interested in it is just start five minutes while you're chopping vegetables for dinner, and then move up to 30 minutes while you're watching a show, and then watch a whole movie for two hours. And then if you've been able to tape that long, you can do so at night as well. I will tell you, it is one of the top things that I have done to improve my health. And I, I do see it with my, um, my wearables and my sleep data.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Recently, I had the privilege of giving a talk at Stanford with Renee Fleming, who's like one of the world's greatest opera singers a- alive today. And I said, "Well, what are some things that you do for your breathing?"
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Because I end up talking a lot for the podcast, and she gave me some, um, lung and diaphragm strengthening exercises.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But then the one that she, uh, suggested for emphasizing nasal breathing, because there's a lot of nasal breathing that's done quickly and subtly, um, in order to maintain, uh, air, air pressure in the lungs, and for her craft, which I know very little about, but is instead of, like, doing weight training for the neck, this is kind of a fun one, it doesn't make the neck big, so people, um, will, who don't want a larger neck will appreciate that. But the, to exercise the internal muscles of the neck, and the way you do this is something called kiss the sky. The boxers will actually know this, the old school boxers. It looks ridiculous, but I'll do it 'cause I look ridiculous on this podcast all the time intentionally. So you look up at the sky and you pucker like you were a puffer fish...
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Oh.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... for 15 seconds per side.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Interesting.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And she said it builds the, the musc- the, the-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Uh-huh.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... musc- the strength and the neural control over the internal muscles of the neck, so again, no widening or thickening of the neck, but on the inside, and it makes it much easier to take deep breaths through your nose. It probably increases the amount of resistance-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... so that you can fill your lungs more easily.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So I've been doing a little bit of, like, kiss the sky, and it looks completely ridiculous.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
It's kind of a yoga move too.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah. So, and you're just, like, really, like, lips smack as if you were going to kiss the sky from side to side, 15 seconds per side a couple times per day-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Love it.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... or just whenever you remember it. And I mean, her voice is amazing, like, her speaking voice-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... and her, uh, posture and everything. So, um, I borrowed that one from her.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
You can do a lot to improve your airway health through breathing rehabilitation. So I think that is a big part that's missing in these conversations with airway health. You know, we talk about, "Well, you need to see the airway trained dentist. You need to see the myofunctional therapist, the orthodontist, the ENT."
- AHAndrew Huberman
That's a lot. Just the, just the scheduling of that alone-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
It's-
- AHAndrew Huberman
... makes me want to take a nap.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
But it is. It's a, it's, it's a lot to unpack airway issues. If parents are out there, there's two books, three I'd recommend if you're very interested in this since it impacts so many people. Certainly Breath by James Nestor, Jaws, as you mentioned, by Sandra Kahn, and, um, Sleep Wrecked Kins by Sharon Mohr if you're a parent.
- 1:05:53 – 1:11:28
Chewing Gum, Mastic Gum, Tool: Xylitol; Chewing Food, Breastfeeding
- AHAndrew Huberman
trying to maintain airway health and healthy saliva, and now I'm obsessed with saliva.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It's like, cool, it's got all this stuff in it. I was thinking of this just like we know blood has all these goodies in it. We test blood.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
We know, um, skin microbiome, we know that, um, you know, women go to an OB-GYN.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
They, they get Pap smears, they get a, you know... I mean, they, we know if you've ever raised a kid or changed diapers, you, you can tell a lot about somebody's health by the fluids-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... that they emit and that they have-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Absolutely.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... within them. I'd like to place saliva on the list of critical things to pay attention to. But chewing gum, is this good for our breathing and for our saliva or not?
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, I, I not a big gum chewer, but-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
I don't either.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... um, i- is it good, bad, neutral?
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah, I think its time and place can be very beneficial. So where I like it, um, is if... 'Cause I, I will say, "Hey, parents, you really need to avoid crackers and chips and granola bars." And they say, "What do I feed my kid?" You know? Um, so if we've missed the window of, of how to introduce food to children or they just favor those type of foods, what's a good strategy if you're out on the go to minimize decay risk and increase salivary health? Chew some gum, particularly xylitol gum, because xylitol will inhibit bacterial proliferation, um-It will reduce strep mutans, which is the bacteria that causes cavities. I'm big fan of xylitol. So offering a piece of xylitol gum after an exposure to some of these snack foods, these fermentable carbohydrates, is great. It will loosen the food. It will increase salivary health. Some people like it to strengthen, you know, mastic gum. I always get asked about that. You can overdo it. You know, I worry about temporomandibular (laughs) dysfunction.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I, I have bad experience with mastic gum.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
I was buying it. I love the kind of the, the, um, primordial aspect of it.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It's like a, it's like a tree sap that you-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... chew on. It comes in this beautiful paper package. And, you know, no plastics or anything. You get it going in there, and you, you feel like you're really, like, working it the same way my bulldog, Costello, would, like, work. He used to, like, teethe on, like, bricks, and like he was just-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Uh-huh. (laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
And you feel great, and then all of a sudden you'd go, "Click, click."
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And your jaw would kind of stick, and then, and then later, you're like, "Whoa."
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
"Like, my jaw really hurts," and-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Or you feel something pop up in your joint.
- 1:11:28 – 1:13:15
Sponsor: Function
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function. Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health. This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more. They've also recently added tests for toxins such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics and tests for PFASs or forever chemicals. Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas. For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood. Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC and acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification. And I should say by taking a second Function test, that approach worked. Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important. There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test. The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated. In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost. It is very affordable. As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd like to try Function, you can go to FunctionHealth.com/huberman. Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners. Again, that's FunctionHealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
- 1:13:15 – 1:20:05
Gum Disease, “Leaky Gums”, Cardiovascular Disease, Dementia, Cancer
- AHAndrew Huberman
Earlier, you mentioned-...the many different systems and diseases of the body that the oral microbiome has been directly linked to. I would say, in, in science and medicine, there are direct effects, like this mediates that, and then there are indirect effects. You know, like if a fire alarm goes off in the middle of the night, your sleep isn't good. But fire alarms don't regulate sleep.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
They just can mediate, they can modulate your sleep.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But my understanding, and I'm not, I'm not deep in this literature, but my understanding is that we now have fairly conclusive evidence that certain bacteria from the mouth makes its way to the brain or heart or other tissues and directly increase either the occurrence or the susceptibility of dementia, cardiovascular disease. That this isn't just a, you know, "Oh, y- you broke your ankle so you move less, you move less, your heart gets less healthy, your heart gets less healthy, your brain gets less healthy." This is kind of, the kind of point I'm trying to make.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But that there's, but that the bacteria in our mouth, bad bacteria, can cause real problems for the brain and heart.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yes, and many other systems too. So much research. So they're finding 57 diseases are, are linked back to oral dysbiosis or oral pathogens, um, which is quite a lot. And different species can affect different parts of the body. So what does this all come down to? It comes down to gum disease. So it's important to note, about 80% of the global population suffers from some sort of gum disease. That's huge. You know? And, um, about 10% of the population will have severe periodontal disease, which is chronic bone loss, tissue loss, and this is where we get tooth loss too. So gum, it's a, it's sort of a continuum, but these all have one thing in common, it's the type of bacterial species that live in our mouths and when they get out of balance. So there's something called the red complex. This- these are the five bacteria that most influence gum disease and dysbiosis, um, that can affect the heart and other organ systems. The big contenders, P. gingivalis, F. nucleatum, um, T. denticola, um, there's AA, um, and then Strep mutans too, um, is, can affect the heart as well. But w- why do these bugs, how do they get where, where these other organ systems are and what are they doing? So I like to term this leaky gums. So we've all heard leaky guts.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
So let's say we're just in dysbiosis and probably because maybe our oral hygiene isn't the best as well as some other things. So we're not flossing, let's say. And our gums bleed. Okay? That's a sign of inflammation. But you've now have created a, a vector, an opening in the skin, in the mucosa, where bacteria can get into the circulatory system, catch a free ride, and end up in places they shouldn't be. And that creates an immune response. So, um, and inflammation. Okay? And then also, these bacteria release endotoxins. Okay? They can create cytokine storms, all kinds of things. So the body doesn't like these bacteria to end up where they shouldn't. So heart disease, for example, if you have gum disease, you're twice as likely, two times as likely to have cardiovascular issues. Um, if you have gum disease, you're three times more likely to have stroke. A lot of this is correlative, not quite causal yet, but some of these are looking to have more influence than others, and there's more research that's needed. Um, fertility is a big one that I like to speak about. So women who have gum disease can take two months longer to get pregnant and to conceive. And there are studies that show, um, in couples that can't conceive, that 90% of the men show some sign of gum disease, and once they go in and get it treated, um, then they, their fertility, conception improves by 70%. That's significant. You know?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
And, and it's not only gum disease, but just any oral infection. P. gingivalis is being linked to Alzheimer's and dementia. You know, these bacteria end up in the brain, they cross the blood-brain barrier, and they create amyloid plaques and inflammation in the brain. And so there have been studies, many studies now, one big one was out of Harvard, where they sampled the cerebral spinal fluid in, in the brains and saw that in these plaques, they had P. gingivalis of almost 100% of the patients. And when they tested them against other patients who had passed away without dementia or Alzheimer's, they didn't see any P. gingivalis. So there's a lot of association and links right now, um, that we need more research on. The other to be aware of is cancer, and this is why I love people to consider oral microbiome testing. I, I personally have a friend who we tested her oral microbiome and she was through the roof with F. nucleatum. Pretty asymptomatic otherwise, but F. nucleatum is linked to increased risk of pancreatic cancer, breast cancer, and colorectal cancer. I mean, we swallow 2,000 times a day, and we know some of these bugs, these bacteria, they can live through the stomach acid and make their way down into the gut. So-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Pancreatic cancer is, uh, uh, sorry to interrupt.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
No.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I, I must say, I've had a couple friends die of pancreatic cancer, and while I wouldn't want any cancer, that's the one that I really wouldn't want.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
I know.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Because so many of them are deadly.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
I have someone really close to me dealing with it right now. He actually just had his pancreas removed prophylactically 'cause it was pre-cancerous.
- AHAndrew Huberman
He had the Whipple procedure?
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
And so he's feeling-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, if they catch it early enough, it goes anterior to posterior.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And if, if you catch it early enough, they can, um, lop off the anterior portion. The Whipple procedure as it's called. But even a, a colleague of mine, um, a brilliant, um, uh, bioengineer, um, a few years ago who had the Whipple done and he was progressing well and, and then he passed away about a year and a half ago. Yeah, pancreatic cancer is...
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Don't want it.
- AHAndrew Huberman
No.... joke. And, um-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
So if you could just test your spit.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
You know, it's a simple test. It's a si- And I, we, I can give some of the tests that I like in the show notes. But you just spit into this little vial and mail it off, and then they send back your results with you. I mean, that's pretty amazing. You do need to find a dentist who can then guide you, what do you do with this information? A lot of these pathogens, they do need antibiotics. They're very virulent. They're spirochetes, so they're corkscrew-shaped and they can just impregnate and wedge into tissue. And so sometimes we really do need to be pretty heavy hitting with how we treat them, so antibiotics.
- 1:20:05 – 1:28:07
Antibiotics, Ozone Therapy, Oil Pulling, Mold, Tool: Coconut Oil; Facial Trauma
- AHAndrew Huberman
radical idea that's going to get me in trouble with my more, um, natural health audience. But I speak to those or they're more-
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Everyone.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... pharmaceutical.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
More nothing, don't take anything. Um, what is the argument against once every three years as a healthy adult, doing a round of, of, uh, antibiotics to kill off, um, unhealthy bacteria? Replenishing the, the microbiome in various tissues?
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Just preventatively?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, just preventative. Like, like kill off what might be living in the mouth, like kill off what might be living in the prostate. I learned recently that, you know, the prostate doesn't have its, uh, the same sort of immune system protection.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And so a lot of men, you know, while they don't have UTIs, they, they have a prostatitis and they basically just need to do a 21-day or 31-day round of antibiotics.
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And everyone will be like, "Oh, you're-"
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah, yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
"... you're spreading MRSA with that."
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Or it's like, you know, and it, but, um, it can, uh, protect against a number of different cancers related to the prostate and things like that. But why don't, um, we do this as a regular practice? Like every three years or so you just kind of, you hit the system hard for about a week, kill off a bunch of bad stuff and a bunch of good stuff, and then replenish the good stuff?
- SWDr. Staci Whitman
Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I think it's harder to repopulate the, the gut-
Episode duration: 2:54:46
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