Huberman LabHow to Increase Your Speed, Mobility & Longevity with Plyometrics & Sprinting | Stuart McMillan
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,164 words- 0:00 – 2:27
Stuart McMillan
- AHAndrew Huberman
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. (instrumental music plays) I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Stuart McMillan. Stu McMillan is one of the world's most sought after coaches for teaching people how to get stronger, run faster, be more powerful, and healthier. Today, we talk about how to do that using what for most people might seem like a rather unconventional set of methods, but for any serious track athlete, will be very familiar, because they do it almost every day, and that's skipping and striding. You heard right. As you'll soon learn, skipping, what most of us think of as a kids' activity, is actually one of the best plyometric activities that we can all do at any age to build more power, speed, coordination, and to improve our muscle, fascial, and nervous system function. Stu McMillan has coached over 70 Olympians across nine Olympic games, and he has coached the players and coaches of every major professional sport. He explains explains how skipping and something called striding are zero-cost activities that we all can and should include in our weekly fitness routine. They not only will have you moving better and having better posture in all your activities, but they also take minimal time and they can help protect you against injuries and improve your longevity. We also talk about the best strides for running at any speed. So if you're into jogging or sprinting, we talk about all the best ways to do that. We talk about the sport of track, which both Stu and I happen to love, and why certain groups of people excel in different sports due to genetic and environmental reasons. We also have a very direct and open conversation about the use of performance-enhancing tools in the athletic and wellness worlds. This is a really special episode because if you like or if you don't like things like running, swimming, cycling, or other activities such as weight training or yoga, there's going to be a lot to take away from it that you can apply. Stu McMillan is a true savant of coaching how best to move and how to improve your health. It was an honor and privilege to host him and to learn from him. I'm sure you'll agree. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Stu McMillan.
- 2:27 – 9:01
Running, Sprinting, Event Distances
- AHAndrew Huberman
Stu McMillan, welcome.
- SMStu McMillan
Thank you. Great to be here.
- AHAndrew Huberman
We go back a little ways.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And you're the guy that they call in to make athletes, or pretty much anybody, faster, stronger, healthier, and more powerful. And who wouldn't want that-
- SMStu McMillan
Exactly.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... athletes, uh, or otherwise. Let's start by talking about running.
- SMStu McMillan
Mm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
You know, I think for a lot of people, they hear running and they're like, "Oh, no, running hurts, running's painful." But I think most people when they think about running, they think about jogging, they think about running a distance longer than a mile, but even for some people, running a mile is a painful thought, let alone a practice. How should we think about running and sprinting in particular? Because when we grow up, we learn to crawl-
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... walk, run.
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And kids naturally wanna run fast at some point, fast for them. What is it about running that, for you, is such an enchanting thing? Why do you think that every four years or so, depending on when they're scheduling the Olympics, everyone in this country gets fascinated with who's fastest-
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... who's fastest in the world? And then they tend to put track and field aside for a bit, but people can jump, they can swim, they can do all these things, but running is so fundamental to being human. What are your thoughts on running generally? And let, let's break it up into distances. Why do you love seeing people run fast? Why have you devoted yourself in part to helping people run faster and faster?
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah, there's a lot in that. First, running fast for me is the ultimate human activity. Like, the fastest human on the planet is the fastest human on the planet, where potentially maybe like the best football player is probably not the best football player. The best soccer player is probably not the best soccer player. There might be some- someone down in Argentina who could be a better NFL linebacker than choose your all-pro linebacker right now. Where sprinting, everybody sprints, as you said. We all run when we're kids, and we figure out, or our teachers figure out, or our coaches figure out, "Well, Andrew, you're a sprinter, so you're gonna sprint. Stu, you're a middle distance, so you go and do that." And over the course of time, we kind of figure out whether we're good or not. And the sprinters, like the truly elite sprinters, end up being the truly elite sprinters when they are 20, 25, 30 years old. Like, that's what you do. You don't move into something else if you are a super elite sprinter. So I think that's part of it, is that for me. Like, it, it is really truly the tip of the spear in human performance. The fastest person on the planet is the fastest person on the planet. Usain Bolt is the world record holder, and he is the fastest person who's ever ran. There's probably not somebody else who, you know, in the Congo or somewhere in Jamaica that could have been faster than Usain, 'cause they would have displayed themselves at some point. So for me, that is it. You know, and I, you know, I started coaching kind of 1984. Like, I've been coaching for a long, long time. And I started coaching professionally in 1992, and I've coached many sports, many activities, many tasks, and I, I enjoy most of them. But for me, it is that pinnacle, that r- true tip of the spear that interests me the most, and that you only get from sprinting. If you're a NFL football player, most likely you are playing every game at about 80% of your best. If you are 80% of your best and you got onto the 100 meter start line, forget about it.... forget about it. If you're less than 99.9% of your best, forget about it. That's why I truly, I love the sprinting events so much. And zoomed out from that a little bit, like, I was, I started off as a strength and conditioning coach. So it was, for me, it was more about the s- the power, the strength, and the speed. It was all of that. And I coached bobsled for a long time, and I really, really enjoyed bobsled because, you know, these guys are massive, they're really strong, and they're really fast. So that, for me, was really appealing, and that was kind of that, that fed my obsession about this peak human performance for a long time, until I had the opportunity to actually go and work with, like, super elite sprinters. And now I can't do anything other than that. I really can't. It's, it's fascinating to me.
- AHAndrew Huberman
How do we compare the fastest person in the 100 meters versus the 200 versus the 400? So for you, is it coaching the 100 that's the most exciting, or the 200 or the 400?
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah, that's a good question. I, I actually prefer coaching the 200 for a couple of reasons. There's a little bit of tactics in the 200, or there's more tactics than there are in the 100. In the 100, the fastest person is gonna win. In the 200, depending on how you tactically set up the, your race, 'cause y- it's not an all-out sprint. You can't run as fast as you can for 20 seconds, whereas at 100 meters, you can run as fast as you can for 10 to 11 seconds. It is a f- it is all out, right from the start. With the 200, you have to kind of either push out really, really hard and then smooth it out and then try to finish strong, or you start off a little bit easier and you finish strong, or you just go out, all out, and you're just gonna fade and see if you can stay ahead. So that tactical element to, thr- for that race, for me, is really interesting. So then you're combining the capacity, you know, the actual ability to run fast and be super, incredibly fast, you know, high, high velocities with a tactical component. So it's then you're thinking about, okay, who's in ... If my athlete's in lane six, who's in lane seven? Who's in lane eight? How are we going to determine how we run based upon who, what the other racers are going to do? So for me, it's the 200. That's not to say I don't love the 100.
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs)
- SMStu McMillan
The 100 for me is the one that I'm ... If I'm just a fan, that's the one that I'm paying attention to the most.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And every four years, people become obsessed with it. That-
- SMStu McMillan
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
That person is generally, the winner is characterized as the fastest person on the planet.
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Because like you said, it's, it's all out.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And, uh, at the same time, I think most people can't really conceive in a concrete way what sprinting 100 meters really is about.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And, uh, the world record is held by?
- SMStu McMillan
Usain Bolt.
- 9:01 – 12:13
Sponsors: Our Place & Wealthfront
- SMStu McMillan
- AHAndrew Huberman
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- 12:13 – 17:00
Natural Sprinters, Kids, Sports Specialization
- AHAndrew Huberman
we were out at the track at Malibu High School. You were teaching my producer, Rob and I, um, some bounding drills, some skipping drills.
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And we'll get back to this because there's such immense value for everybody, not just people who seek to be competitive runners, but for everybody to... I realized this morning, it's hop, skip, and jump.
- SMStu McMillan
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
We were always going to go hop, skip, and a jump away from... But to learn how to move properly at speed, to move properly not at speed, I mean, there's just so much value in, in these drills and what we went through. And so, we'll get back to that. But there was an interesting moment yesterday, uh, I recall, where some of the kids were getting out of school and started running around the track. And I had this question in my mind to ask you, which was, "Hey, can you spot any of those kids is likely to be really excellent sprinters?" But I didn't even have to ask. We watched them go out in a few rows, and then you said, "That kid right there."
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
You said, "That kid right there, he's got it."
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
What was it about the way he was running? Kid probably was eighth or ninth grade, um, took one run away from us-
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... and you said that, "That kid's a sprinter."
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
What was it? Was it his speed? Was it the, the form? What was it?
- SMStu McMillan
It wa- f- f- first of all, it was not the form.
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs)
- SMStu McMillan
'Cause most of those kids are, you know-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Okay.
- SMStu McMillan
... limbs are going all over the place, right?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Okay.
- SMStu McMillan
It's how they interact with the ground, and it's, it's this qualitative component that is really hard to define. And see, if you, if you watch a elite boxer hit a heavy bag, there's a pop sound to it. Pop, pop, pop, pop. And it's the same with elite sprinters. Or not even elite sprinters, but anybody who's fast and effective and efficient at applying force against an object, and you see that as young as, as we saw yesterday with, what? 12, 13, 14-year-olds, right? Some of them are just thudding on the ground and just pushing back, and they're like, "Rob, you can..." Your, your producer. Um, but-
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs)
- SMStu McMillan
But, but-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Which by the way folks-
- SMStu McMillan
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
... we're taking a couple of jabs at Rob but he's, he's in the room with us now, although off camera. Rob has run multiple triathlons. He's an incredibly impressive athlete. And, um, as an incredibly impressive athlete, we can, we can jab at him-
- SMStu McMillan
100%.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... every now and again.
- SMStu McMillan
But this one kid, he was just re- he was far more efficient on the ground than everyone else. It was just pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. And you could hear it. Uh, I hear it. Generally, I hear it before I see it. And that's, I think it's what actually what I heard first, and I looked around and said, "Oh, that's, that's the kid." Like, he's a sprinter. And then you just kinda look at, at, at his form and it just looks better. There's just a quality to that, that you don't see with these other kids. And even though limbs are going all over the place and head is going from side to side, and you know, as I said, feet are going all over the place and hands are flapping, you know, like wings. There's just a fluidity. Even with him looking like that, he just does doing it much more coordinated and fluid than everyone else, who'd look like they were trying hard. And with him, it didn't look like he was trying hard.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm.
- SMStu McMillan
And typically, I mean, that is by the way, the differentiator between all elite and sub-elite athletes, regardless of the sport. The best athletes are always the ones that make it look the easiest, and that kid just made it look easier than everyone else.
- 17:00 – 23:38
Athletes, Identity, Race Selection
- SMStu McMillan
- AHAndrew Huberman
I ran cross country as a senior in high school. I've been running consistently since I was 16 three times a week. I don't consider myself even a runner. I just run for the pleasure of it.
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
A long run, a medium run, and a short run. Um, but perhaps, it was the movies about Steve Prefontaine, of which there were two. I think one's called Prefontaine and the other one's called Without Limits.
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
That are, that are quite good. They got me excited about track.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And then I started going up to University of Oregon and attending track meets there as a fan.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, but there's this dramatized moment about Pre, as they called him, uh, and Bowerman, the coach of it in Eugene, where allegedly, um, purportedly, uh, Pre wants to run the mile because everyone in the country at that time was obsessed with who's the fastest miler. But Bowerman says to him, "No, you're a 5,000 runner. You're gonna run the three-mile." And he said, "No one cares about the 5,000." He said, "You're gonna make them care." And it turned out to be the right fit.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
The 5,000 was the right event for him. So that was a moment where a coach could identify y- you could be a, a great miler but you'll be a spectacular 5,000 runner.
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Is that based on sort of times and splits and recovery and all that? Or is, or is there actually a body type and a, and a gait that, um, is best? Because one of my favorite things to find on social media-I promise this is not a digression, is where they'll set out a, a race, an animated race between like a rabbit-
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... a cheetah, an elephant, a human. It's very interesting to see which animals are fastest over which distances.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
They fall out over different distances.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And most people perhaps are surprised to find that the animal that wins the long, long, long, longest distance and beats all the other species is us.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah, the human.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Right? So we're not good in the, in the sprint compared to the cheetah, but we are, oh, so good at the marathon and ultra-marathon compared to the cheetah or any other animal.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So do you think it's something special about the gait, um, the personality, times in various events? I mean, what, what funnels, um, somebody's understanding of themselves, uh, or an athlete to say, "You know, you're meant to, you're meant to do this"?
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah. I th- I think you nailed it at the end. Their understanding of themselves, I think, is a really important part of it. You know, we find ourselves through movement and we fall in love with whatever it is because that's what we do and we tend to do it really well. So I coached, uh, a British sprinter for a long time. Her name is Jodie Williams. I coached her for about a decade starting in 2015. She just retired at the end of last season. She went... When she was young, so between I think the ages of 13 and 17, she won 150 straight races in the 100 and the 200. Never lost. Was the best at every single age group all over the world for five years. Finally lost and did not really transition into being an elite 100-meter, 200-meter sprinter. But this was her identity. She'd always been the fastest person. So when I started coaching her in 2015, '16 when she was 22, that was what she did. She was a 100, 200-meter girl, but she wasn't elite. She wasn't world class. And we kept on pushing her towards the 100 and 200 because this was what she saw herself as. And me external to that, what I saw her as, as well, and everyone else expected from her because she was the best in the world for so long. And it's... A funny thing happened, sort of five years into that. We did a, a relay, a 4x4, early season at, uh, Arizona State University. And she ran really fast in this 4x4 relay, and she enjoyed it. And she didn't enjoy getting beat in the 100 and the 200 anymore. And she said, "Hmm, maybe I can do the 400." And in the 2019 World Championships in Doha, she made the British team in the 200. Didn't do very well, but ran the relay, ran the 4x4 and ran the fastest split of all the countries. She ran 49.4 in a 4x4 split. And said, "Okay, we're a 400-meter runner now." So sometimes it's just that. Sometimes it takes a long time for the athlete to come to the realization that this is what they connect with. Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Like, "This is, this is who I am." You know, you know what I mean? Like it's, it's re- it's not as easy as just saying, "Oh, we've got a bunch of tests and you're 100 meter, you're a 200, you're a 400." For her, it took her over a decade to come to terms with the fact that, "You know, I can't do the 100 and 200 anymore, but I could be really good at the 400." And then f- and two years later at the 2020 Olym- uh, Olympic Games, which ended up being obviously in '21, uh, she was sixth in the 400 meters in the Olympics, ran 49.9 twice. So it's, uh, you know, it's, um, in hindsight, we wonder if we moved into the 400 five years earlier, three or four years earlier, maybe she could have had a medal. But yeah, it's, it's an interesting one. Like it's... We're always using all of the different pieces of information that we have at hand. Some of it is quantitative, sometimes... Some of, some of it is qualitative, some of it is just a feeling. And with, with Jodie specifically, it was, you know, "What did I better connect with?" Because, you know, that's typ- that's... As I said, it's why we get into sport in the first place. If we can't connect with that, uh, as an individual with why we're doing it, then why are we even doing it? I feel like it... This is a great metaphor for life in general, for career. I mean, I've enjoyed different careers and, um, I'm glad I started in the one I did, but that I've ended up in the one I'm in now, even though, you know, I still teach and I'm involved in research in some ways that, um, there's such a immense pleasure to, uh, finding the, the thing-
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... for oneself.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But you can't get there first. This is what I think is frustrating to young people now because of the internet. They think like, "What's my calling? What's my, what's my event? What's my sport? What am I built for?" And then you have all these examples, right? You've got your, um, Shaquille O'Neals-
- 23:38 – 30:35
Walking to Sprinting, Gait Patterns, Tool: Flat-Foot Contact
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, you said something that I think is immensely powerful I'd like to use as a segue, which is that we find ourselves through movement.
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, I think this is so true, um, and not just for people who are trying to figure out what a- athletic or exercise endeavors are best for them, but certainly there. I'd like to contrast jogging and running.
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yesterday you, you mentioned a few things that, to me, just feel like gems because, like I said, I'll try and run far-ish for me. I go by time, about an hour once a week, 30 minutes on another day, and a, let's just say about a 15-minute, not all out, but close to all out on a separate day. I've tried ad nauseam to figure out whether or not it's best to heel strike and roll, whether or not it's best to land on the toe, whether or not it's s- to lift the knee. I mean-... for the- the uninformed, um, who goes to the internet, you can get answers about this all sorts of ways. Let's start with the slowest movement possible, which is just walking.
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Let's forget about speed walking for sake of this conversation-
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... for a number of reasons.
- SMStu McMillan
Racewalking.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Racewalking, excuse me.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs) Racewalking. Um, see I even forgot the- the name of it. Um-
- SMStu McMillan
No disrespect to racewalkers.
- AHAndrew Huberman
No disrespect to racewalkers, but most people don't seek to racewalk, I think-
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, but let's talk about walking.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
When we walk, do we- we heel to toe roll naturally, do we middle of foot to toe roll? And then let's proceed to jogging-
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... running, and then let's step up through the var-
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... various gear systems.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah.
- SMStu McMillan
Um, there's probably five separate gait patterns. Walking is the first one. And typically, most people will strike on their heel, they'll roll over and they'll toe off on their toe. And we do that up to about 2 to 2.2 to 2.3 meters a second, until we can no longer do that. So we start walking, we walk really, really slow. And if we start increasing our speed, you'll find that you'll almost self-organize into the speed that feels really nice for you. If you were going- going for a walk, you would self-organize towards your most efficient or your most stable velocity for that walk. And if you don't... not thinking about it, you will self-organize towards your most efficient mechanical solution as well. That it might be flatfoot, it might be right up high on your heel with massive amount of dorsiflexion, it might be a little bit lower on the heel. But that's all contingent upon your individual structure, how your foot is built, how it coordinates with your knee and your hip. If you're not thinking about it, we typically will self-organize towards what is most efficient, most stable for us. And then as we get faster and faster and faster, you'll feel that- that stability and that inefficiency starts to rock a little bit and you can no longer walk. And what do we do then? To get... and to get faster, we actually have to transition to a totally different gait pattern and we start to jog, because we're... with- there's so much instability, inefficiency, that that pattern just start... begins to break down and we start to jog. Let me back up just a little bit. So if you were to walk with, let's say, your- your 80-year-old neighbor and you're doing a walk with her, that's probably going to be pretty taxing for you, pretty uneconomical, pretty inefficient 'cause you have to shuffle a little bit, you're walking so slow you're probably going to be bent over a little bit. But if the neighbor went and he just continued to walk, you would speed up to your most efficient pattern. So within all of these gait patterns, there is almost like an upside down U where you start off really inefficient, unstable. As you get faster and faster and faster, efficiency increases, stability increases and you st- keep getting faster and faster and faster. Stability goes down again, efficiency goes down again before you have to transition to a different pattern. So jogging occurs at somewhere around 20% of your maximum sprint speed so, you know, whether that's 1.8 to 2 to 2.2, uh, meters per second and then we start to jog. And eventually we can't jog at that speed anymore so we have to transition to a different gait pattern and we start to run. And that's kind of what we were doing yesterday, in fact.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- SMStu McMillan
You know, we spent some time running. Now, it's important, you asked me about kind of heel strike and- and where we are within the foot, we're thinking about the same thing throughout and that's just to move from here to there as efficiently as we can, understanding that we will typically as a self... as I said, self-organize towards our most efficient pattern. And the only time we actually think about doing something different than that is when somebody outside tells us to do something different and messes up the efficiency most of the time. So for me, it's, uh, like the big cue... and we- we talked about this yesterday, right? We said flatfoot contact. And if you think about being flatfoot contact and all of the different things that you do, all the different gait patterns you do, the velocity is what determines where in the foot you actually will contact. So if you're walking and you're thinking flatfoot, you'll actually go heel strike, you'll roll over and you'll toe off. And if you're sprinting as fast as you can, you're thinking flatfoot contact, you will actually plantarflex slightly just prior to ground contact and you'll contact the ground more towards your toes than you will if you were just walking or- or running or jogging.
- AHAndrew Huberman
We should clarify for people, dorsiflexion is when your toes come close up towards your shin.
- SMStu McMillan
Correct.
- 30:35 – 36:00
Visual Focus, Body Position, Running, Lifting Weights
- AHAndrew Huberman
Let's talk a little bit more about body position and running mechanics. Um, there may be no hard and fast rules to this, but where should my eyes be? You know, I've heard, oh, you want to be looking ab- assuming I'm not in a race-
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... uh, against anyone, I'm, you know, heading out for a run, doesn't matter which duration. Um, does it matter where I place my, my vision?
- SMStu McMillan
Um, in sprinting, 100%.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- SMStu McMillan
I feel like the longer the, the distance is, the less it probably matters because the velocity is so much slower.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm.
- SMStu McMillan
I feel like when you're... if you're going out for a jog and it's 10-minute miles, you're probably looking pretty much straight ahead of you. You know, and if it's a little bit darker and maybe you're on a rocky surface or something, or a little bit uneven surface, you're looking down a little bit. But it's... it doesn't seem to really have a systemic effect on how you move, but it does when you sprint. Because obviously your body's gonna follow your eyes. So if you're running down the track and you're sprinting as fast as you can and your eyes creep up and you start looking up, then the chin is gonna follow that. And you just start this extension pattern in the entirety of the system. As soon as you lift your chin up, you get into more extension through the ribcage and the spine and then the lumbar, and everything gets extended and you end up standing up and you're-
- AHAndrew Huberman
So more arched back-
- SMStu McMillan
A little bit more arched.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... and upright posture.
- SMStu McMillan
Correct.
- AHAndrew Huberman
For, for those who aren't familiar with flexion and extension, um, unless we say otherwise, if we talk about flexion, we're talking about assuming the dreaded C-shaped position that everyone seems so good at these days.
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Collapsed toward their, uh, midline, uh, versus extension where your chin is up and away from the chest and you're, um-
- SMStu McMillan
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... upright posture.
- SMStu McMillan
And if the eyes come up first, you're going to end up in what's known as a hyperextended position. It's too much extension. Where really w- what we want the eyes to do is just come with the rest of the torso. So how I, the cue that I use for the sprinters is allow your torso to determine when the chin and when the eyes come up, not the opposite way around.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Hm.
- SMStu McMillan
Because if the eyes come first, the chin follows, and then we get this disconnect between the head and the thorax and the pelvis, and there's just too much extension. We end up kind of just pushing our way down the track rather than bouncing.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, there's a, a wonderful movement in yoga that's helped me a lot in my weightlifting, uh, over the years. I did a little bit of yoga when I lived in San Diego, um, 'cause they had good yoga classes where you, they, they have you do this kind of rag doll hanging over at the waist position. It looks like a Jefferson deadlift for the-
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... for the gym rats or the Olympic lifters, rounded lower back. And then they have you stand up from that position, but you deliberately start at your lower spine and, and wrap... un-peel yourself from that folded over position, never letting the head lead.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But, you know, so basically like a chain coming up from the spine, and then the, the head come... moves last.
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I mean, it's moving the whole time, but it, uh, you're looking straightforward last as opposed to what you're saying where you lift the head first.
- SMStu McMillan
Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
That's been tremendously helpful to me in movements in the gym, which I think have helped me a lot. Like, um, glute ham raises where you, you know, you're essentially in that position and you come all the way up and then you go into a hamstring curl-
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- 36:00 – 42:18
Tool: Skipping & Benefits
- AHAndrew Huberman
So in keeping with that, back to running, I, I believe that everyone can and should run. Most everyone. There's certain people who can't run for, uh, you know, various reasons, but, um, but that people who can walk very likely can run. And I'm becoming more of a believer with every moment I spend with you that, uh, sprinting is more valuable than jogging. That sprinting is more valuable than any kind of distance run. And I'm gonna offend a lot of people, but I love long distance running, so I'm offending myself. Um-Yesterday, we didn't sprint, but we did a lot of skipping. Let's talk about skipping. And yes, I'm talking about skip, skip, skip to my lou, this... Okay, this thing, I'm not gonna sing the rest of that. Skipping is such a natural movement for people, most people, and it feels so damn good. And it's actually a bit more taxing than people believe. And I came out of that workout skipping yesterday, from skipping yesterday feeling like my hips were nice and open-
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... tons of extension. My posture is up. I feel like I grew an inch.
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I, I was strong in the gym this morning. I just feel incredible. What is it about skipping and why do you have sprinters skip so much and why isn't... Why aren't more people talking about skipping? And yes, we will return to, to gait stuff, but I think we have to talk about skipping.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah. Uh, yeah, first of all, we skipped a lot because the reality is you could not sprint, and that is the reality for almost everybody, because we stop sprinting when we're whatever age. Some people stop sprinting at 15, sometimes. Some people it's 20. But very few people are actually sprinting through their 20s and next to nobody is sprinting through their 30s. So we know that the movement of sprinting or running fast, and we kind of know what, what this does and why this is good for you, right? We know that, yeah, moving our body intensively, with intensity is probably something we should be able to do for as long as we possibly can. But we can't. Because typically, we've still got pretty good engines into our 30s and 40s and 50s, but we don't have the bodies to be able to handle the stresses and the forces that this engine could put into the body. So our tissue and our joints just is not able to handle all of these forces. If you were to go out and sprint yesterday, even if we did, you know, we ended up warming up for how long? An hour and a half warmup. If we did a, let's say, a real proper warmup, we warmed up for 30 minutes and then I just said, "Andrew, I want you to sprint as fast as you possibly can for 50 meters," that's not gonna end well for most people. Maybe you could get through it yesterday, but for most people that wouldn't end well.
- AHAndrew Huberman
You end up with a pull or a-
- SMStu McMillan
Exactly.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... strain or a couple of days of just feeling not well.
- SMStu McMillan
Right, 'cause we just don't do that. We don't have the tissue capacity to be able to handle that anymore, or the joint capacity. You know, there's so many people assume they, they, they have to run really quickly somewhere and they just didn't know that they had to do it, or they're playing backyard basketball or football and they tweak a hamstring or te- tweak a calf or something even worse, right? It ha- happens all the time. We just do not have the tissue capacity anymore to handle those forces. So what do we do instead? And I, I typically recommend two activities. One is running up hills. There's a lot less stress on the tissue and the joint system by sprinting up a hill than there is on sprinting on a straight away. But second, and I think more important, is actually skipping. And I, and I'm, I'm with you. I don't know why we stopped skipping.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I think it's associated with, uh, only childlike behavior-
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... but that's like saying jump rope is only associated with childlike-
- SMStu McMillan
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... behavior. And I'm a big believer in skipping rope. We'll talk about skipping rope. But yeah, I think that's it. Um, yeah, I mean maybe this conversation or this portion of the conversation could be titled, you know, um, let's normalize skipping-
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... for adults.
- SMStu McMillan
Absolutely.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, it felt awesome.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
You can cover a lot of ground quickly. Heart rate gets up, but not to an outrageous degree. You're not sucking for air.
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But it does feel a little silly if you're not on a track. But you've mentioned, uh, you've... What's the lo- longest distance you've ever skipped?
- SMStu McMillan
10 miles.
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs) Did you get some funny looks?
- SMStu McMillan
I got a few.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Nice.
- SMStu McMillan
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
And you're a real tall guy. You're 6'3", so-
- SMStu McMillan
Uh-huh.
- 42:18 – 45:01
Sponsors: AG1 & Helix Sleep
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is an all-in-one vitamin mineral probiotic drink with adaptogens. I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring this podcast. The reason I started taking AG1, and the reason I still take AG1, is because it is the highest quality and most complete foundational nutritional supplement. What that means is that AG1 ensures that you're getting all the necessary vitamins, minerals, and other micronutrients to form a strong foundation for your daily health. AG1 also has probiotics and prebiotics that support a healthy gut microbiome. Your gut microbiome consists of trillions of microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune system status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more. So I've consistently found that when I take AG1 daily, my digestion is improved, my immune system is more robust, and my mood and mental focus are at their best. In fact, if I could take just one supplement, that supplement would be AG1. If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer. They'll give you five free travel packs plus a year's supply of vitamin D3K2 with your order of AG1. Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim this special offer. Today's episode is also brought to us by Helix Sleep. Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs. Now, I've spoken many times before on this and other podcasts about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance. When we aren't sleeping well or enough on a consistent basis, everything suffers. And when we are sleeping well and enough, our mental health, physical health, and performance in all endeavors improves markedly. Now, the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in the quality of sleep that you get each night. How soft it is or how firm it is, how breathable it is, all play into your comfort and need to be tailored to your unique sleep needs. If you go to the Helix website, you can take a brief two-minute quiz which will ask you questions such as, do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach, do you tend to run hot or cold during the night, things of that sort. Now, maybe you know the answers to those questions, maybe you don't. Either way, Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you. For me, that turned out to be the Dusk mattress. I started sleeping on the Dusk mattress about three and a half years ago, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had. So much so that when I travel and I'm not on my Dusk mattress, I really miss it. And when I get home, I just find that I sleep so much better because of that mattress. If you'd like to try Helix, you can go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take that two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that's customized for you. Right now, Helix is giving up to 20% off on all mattress orders. Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to get up to 20% off.
- 45:01 – 49:50
Tools: Skipping, Beginners, Jogging Incorporation
- AHAndrew Huberman
I want to hover a little bit on knee behind butt. (laughs)
- SMStu McMillan
Mm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So knee behind-
- SMStu McMillan
Shout out Kelly Starrett.
- AHAndrew Huberman
K- shout out Kelly Starrett. I mean, if you think about this, folks, like knee behind butt means into extension-
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... so the hips are opening, so to speak. I know in yoga they say hip opening means a different thing, but hip extension generally means posture is more elevated, chin away from chest, generally. I mean, you could get knee behind butt with your chin down, but it's tougher just-
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... the, the, um, sternum comes up, um, kind of naturally puts us into external rotations. So think, uh, thumbs out to the side like the Fonz, as opposed to inward.
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And then when you think about the, the typical sitting, standing, walking, jogging pattern of everybody-
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... especially if you're a commuter, um, doesn't matter if you're on a subway, bus, um, car or otherwise, or plane, you're, you're folded in. And so what I'm starting to realize is that knee, uh, knee be- behind butt, ankle elevated, sternum up, I mean, these are the hallmarks of locomotion.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And so it's interesting that walking, well, jogging in particular, seems to follow this kind of like forward folded, kind of like almost like falling forward kind of thing. I don't, I'm not trying to beat up on jogging 'cause I also like to jog, but I wonder if minute for minute skipping would be a much better activity than jogging for people who want to elevate their heart rate-
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... you know, all, all the standard general adaptations that occur with exercise, improved insulin regulation, et cetera, et cetera. Um, do you think for the person who has not skipped in a while to go out and skip for a couple minutes is the way to do it? Or should they skip for a, a lap and then walk a lap? What would be the way to break into this?
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah, I think, I think probably the, the worst thing to do is go out for a 10-mile skip. Don't do that. I think we start off with like a 30-second skip, 30-second jog, 30-second skip, 30-second jog, or 30-second skip followed by a 30-second walk. And the difference is, and you'll feel this, right? If you think about when you skip, and we talked about this a lot yesterday, I was asking you to be expressive. Express yourself. Think about what your posture is and how you're holding yourself. You don't really feel... You don't seem to think about those things when you jog. You just jog, and as you said, you're kind of closed and small and short, and you're just trying to get through it, right? The heart rate gets up to whatever it is, and yeah, you get some good exercise. But skipping, here's your opportunity to truly express yourself, be big and free and open and bouncy and rhythmical. All of these things that were at one point in our lives pretty important to us, and we lose. And that's what's... That is what we get from sprinting, right? The best sprinters are the ones who can express themselves truly maximally, like totally let go. And it doesn't have to be, like, massively powerful. Like, the skips that we were doing yesterday were w- what we call low amplitude skips, where we're just sort of skipping back and forth, but yet I'm still asking you to be tall and expressive and swing and be stiff on the ground. And I feel like, like there's... As I said, there's so many different benefits to this, whether it's just been the plyometric benefit, whether it's the fascial benefit, whether be- it because this is such a...... a, uh, cross-body coordinative aspect, there's all sorts of brain benefits to that, as you know.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- SMStu McMillan
It's, uh, I mean, there's ju- it's just, there's so much more benefits to skipping than there is to just jogging. So how, the, the on-ramp for me when I talk to people about the benefits of skipping is just to put it in their jogs. So while I was talking to one of your photographers yesterday, and he said, "How do I do this? Uh, I usually jog and I, I'm, I'm going like 10-minute-mile pace." I said, "Well, next time you jog, just in, you know, go for your jogs, you know, go for about a mile or so when you're tu- doing a typical jog, and then just go back and forth between skipping and jogging every, every 30 seconds or ski- or so. And I guarantee you that you will feel better with every skip that you do, every single one." Because there's this, again, this self-organizing coordinative aspect to it, where you start feeling a little bit more bouncy, a little lighter, a little bit more coordinated, a little bit more rhythmic, which feeds your jogging. So for me, that's probably the best on-ramp, is just to work it into your current jogs, and then from there, start getting a little bit more powerful with it, a little bit more expressive with it. Now we start driving the thigh up and back, and get, again, a loop, a little bit more hip extension. Start being... You know, now we can start talking about skips for distance, where you're trying, say, "Okay, from here to that tree that's 50 meters away, how many steps do I need to take to get to that 50-meter-away tree?" So doing things like that.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah,
- 49:50 – 53:03
Transition Points, Tool: Skipping, Maximum Amplitude
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'm fascinated by activities, both physical and mental, that facilitate the transition into a more difficult activity-
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... physical or mental. I started to think about this when I started working on my book in earnest. It's very hard to just jump into writing. But I noticed that if I did some drawing, listened to a lecture while I was drawing, and I, I do anatomical drawings, very easy to transition into writing. I enjoy drawing, I'm not trying to accomplish much with it, but it's a very natural activity for me, and just very easy to drop into a deep groove for writing for hours.
- SMStu McMillan
Really?
- AHAndrew Huberman
And then I started talking to a musician friend of mine who, he's a songwriter, a very accomplished songwriter, and he does the same. And then I saw a post from Joni Mitchell that she would paint before she would sing. And I think these transition activities that are natural for us that don't feel as constricted by distance over time, or, you know, sometimes I put my drawings on social media, but they're really for me.
- SMStu McMillan
Mm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
They're a way of kind of, um, thinking about the biology from a circuit standpoint as it is very personal and kind of abstract.
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, as you talk about skipping, it seems a little bit the same-
- SMStu McMillan
Mm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... where, you know, skipping, we're not necessarily trying to become the fastest skipper in the world or beat our yesterday's skipping time. We're just trying to skip with more, as you said, more expression, more enjoyment.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But perhaps, it sounds like, indeed, it can help transition into a faster gait with what we're doing for jogging or for running, or transition us right into, into sprinting. And, and I think that these, um, transition points for physical and mental activities are very important because these days there's so many tools and protocols, you know, dare I say-
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... and people start to feel like, "Oh, I have to do all of these things? How would I do this," right? "How am I supposed to meditate and get sunlight and do it? You know, I'm already exercising a ton, now I'm, now you want me to skip?" The way you describe it is completely different in saying, "No, you, you're still doing your 'cardio,'" quote unquote, but maybe you do your zone two cardio and you incorporate some skipping, which will make your zone two faster for you.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah, yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Or your, your, your high-intensity interval training more, um, you'll feel more pliable-
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... more explosive. Mike, that, that, that's what that-
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah, I think that's, that's part of it.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah.
- SMStu McMillan
I think that step one is incorporating in, so you can actually be comfortable skipping.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- SMStu McMillan
And step two is now can we add a little bit more speed, force, velocity to that skip, where it becomes in and of itself a workout-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- SMStu McMillan
... where you're skipping as hard as you can for 50 meters and walking back, and doing that 10 to 15 times.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Is that, would you consider that a, a solid workout for skipping?
- SMStu McMillan
100%, that would be-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Okay.
- SMStu McMillan
... a great skipping workout.
- 53:03 – 55:32
Concentric & Eccentric Phases, Running
- AHAndrew Huberman
Let's talk about concentric and eccentric aspects of running and skipping.
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So folks, concentric generally associated with the lifting phase, (laughs) although sometimes it's the pulling phase, if it's a pull-up. And then eccentric would be the lowering phase of-
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... of some movement. Um, in running, where's the concentric, where's the eccentric? For the uninformed, if you could just tell us.
- SMStu McMillan
Uh, well, in running, concentric is pretty important because most of running is pretty concentric dominant. You're on the ground for quite a long time when you push behind your center of mass for quite a long time. In striding and sprinting, which are the two faster gaits, so you've got walking, jogging, running, striding, and sprinting. Striding and sprinting, which is upwards of... So striding, if you think about being 75 to 90% or 80% to 95% of your maximum sprint speed, and that's-
- AHAndrew Huberman
That's called striding?
- SMStu McMillan
That's called striding. And then sprinting is anything above that, where you actually, it's purely, truly maximal. As we said, these are different, uh, gait patterns entirely. Um, those sprinting and striding is almost entirely eccentric. Entirely.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Break- you're breaking?
- SMStu McMillan
It's all breaking. It's all breaking forces. It's how well do you handle those breaking forces? If you do not handle those breaking forces well, you're not fast. It's... And, and concentric, any concentric force ability or concentric force capacity is just not a differentiator at elite sp- at elite speed. In fact, it seems to be reversed.So, we, we did a lot of testing through the '90s when I was up in Calgary. I was working for the Canadian Sports Center in Calgary, uh, starting in 1994 or so, and was there for a long time. And we were ... We had, you know, because 27 different national teams were based there, and all of the University of Calgary, uh, sports teams were also there, we could test out the Yin Yang for hundreds of athletes every single day. And one of the things that we tested was, was concentric, isometric, and eccentric force capacities, and which ones actually related to being actually good at your sport. And almost every single sport, the concentric force capacity, and you pick the one, whether it's peak, whether it's rate of force application, whether it's time, time to peak, concentric force capacity just did not at all differentiate between the elite performers in that sport and the sub-elite performers in that sport. But eccentric did, all across the board.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'm absolutely
- 55:32 – 1:03:11
Transitioning to Striding, Posture, Center of Mass
- AHAndrew Huberman
struck by this stride comes before sprint thing.
- SMStu McMillan
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
And, and I'm remembering back to, to, uh, to cross country-
- SMStu McMillan
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
... where they say, "We're gonna do a stride workout at the end of a run."
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
We get back to the, the track at school and they do some strides. And, um, I'm just chuckling to myself because I always would tell myself in subsequent years, you know, "Okay, I'm gonna sprint, but I'm gonna sprint at, you know, 50% of my all-out speed."
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So, I always think of all-out speed for me as, um, somebody's chasing me with a, a syringe filled with poison-
- SMStu McMillan
Okay.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... and I've gotta get away.
- SMStu McMillan
Okay.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, that's all-out speed. I don't wanna die. So, 50% of that, 60, 70, you know, it's sub- ... You know, and I'm measuring it subjectively. I'm not doing this by heart rates or anything like that. And indeed, anytime I've done it 100% all out, like in my mind imagining, you know, someone trying to, trying to really take my life and I'm running all out, I end up with this lower back thing-
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... because of the ... You know, it ... You get hurt.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, but striding sounds like something that people could work up to. How do you know, after doing the, uh, skip workout that you described-
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... that you're, quote-unquote, "ready to stride"-
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... and start doing a stride workout?
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And I should mention that the, these workouts, because we did one yesterday, um, you finish them feeling great. This is an aspect of exercise that I think most people don't talk about, unfortunately, that this leave it all on the mat, you know, you take every set to failure in the gym, or you're ... You know, these long runs where you're just shredded. They're, they're not great for teaching people how to be healthy because people are exhausted afterwards, they're tired, they overtrain quickly.
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And then people say, "There's no such thing as overtraining." It's like, yeah, if you can sleep all day, eat all day, and your profession is to do this. But there is a, such a thing as having a stressful life and wanting to be healthy and exercising and trying to incorporate that in a way that feeds the rest of your life.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And I think these workouts that we did, the workout we did yesterday, excuse me, um, left me feeling, you know, posturally, energetically, mood-wise, just feeling great. I slept great last night. Felt great this morning. Had a great workout in the gym, as I mentioned earlier. So, I want to encourage people to give this a try. And in doing that, I want to give them a roadmap. So, a, a warm-up of 10 to 15 minutes, 50 meter or so skip. Um, could they do it on lawn, dirt, or concrete? Does it matter?
- SMStu McMillan
No, it doesn't.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Okay. Great.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- 1:03:11 – 1:08:00
Older Adults, Eccentric Control, Tool: Skipping
- AHAndrew Huberman
When Dr. Peter Attia was on this podcast and elsewhere, he talked about one of the major causes of death, mostly in older people, is they'll fall, they'll be mobile, they'll catch some sort of infection, um, related to contact with the bed or, um, you know, sur- post-surgical lack of circulation and that's what takes them out.
- SMStu McMillan
Mm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I, I was shocked to learn this, right? I mean, I thought it'd be heart attack or-
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... uh, cerebrovascular disease or that instead. But that led to this whole notion that I think is gaining more popularity nowadays that part of longevity is maintaining things like grip strength, one's ability to jump and land, and jumping and landing is eccentric control.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
My mom's turning 80 this year and she's fortunately in very good health.
- SMStu McMillan
Great.
- AHAndrew Huberman
My dad's already 80. He was on this podcast and for anyone that saw that, he's clearly in very good health. But I worry about them and I worry mostly about a step down off a curb, a step going down a stairwell that is not controlled and then a slip and then a fall and then the break and then the immobility and then the, the sequence that Attia and others have referred to. Would skipping be a good activity for people in their 60s, 70s, or 80s to undertake carefully as a way to learn eccentric control? Because I'll be honest, I've seen some wonderful inspiring videos of, um, people in their 70s and 80s jumping off of boxes doing Plyo type work in the gym. I don't know many folks in their 70s and 80s who are gonna embark on that.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But you can skip kind of small skips, then you can do larger skips. You can skip anywhere, it's free-
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... um, if you approach it carefully. You probably don't even need a trainer. There's some videos now of you having us skip and-
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... um, I... You know, here I'm, like, inspired to start a skipping movement, uh, (laughs) with you (laughs) , um, for all these reasons. Uh, you don't n- even need a piece of equipment. Probably even do it barefoot on grass if you couldn't afford shoes, right? (laughs)
- SMStu McMillan
100%.
- AHAndrew Huberman
What are your thoughts on folks who are, um, in the 60 and up club-
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... um, skipping?
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah, I think you've nailed it. I think that is so important. That eccentric control or the eccentric capacity is the one that we really lose. The ability to handle ourselves eccentrically is just... It's, it's... We don't do that work anymore. Everything that we do is concentric in nature. And, uh, it is. Uh, i- i- it's not just elite sport. I said before that the differentiator is always in the eccentric force capacities in elite sport. Also in us, in gen pop, we ha- we lose the ability to apply eccentric force, whether it's fast or maximal. So 100%, I think it's so important. My dad, um, was an elite athlete when he was younger and has probably averaged four days a week running for almost his entire life.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Good for him.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah. He's 78. In 2019, he ran the New York City marathon. Ran, uh, 5:02. So he's at, at 74 or 73 years old. And he doesn't do that anymore, but he still runs four days a week and he runs about 20 to 25 miles. And two of those days are skipping sessions where he walks 30 seconds-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- SMStu McMillan
... he skips for 30 seconds, and then he strides as fast as he can-... as fast as his capacity will allow for 30 seconds, and then he walks, then he skips, and then he strides, and he walks. And it's, it's, it's so key. It really is. Like, it's, it's ... For me, like, the ability to express yourself maximally through running, and I, I, I'm, and I've already said I don't feel like most people can do this. I don't know if there is a better single metric to, as a measurement for, whatever word you wanna use here, vitality or health, than the ability to safely express maximal speed of, of, of you ... y- as you as an individual. Like, you choose VO2 max, you choose all of these different things that you might come up with. I don't feel like any of them are as good as the ability to just run maximally. So, let's start with that. If we feel like that is important, and you can argue whether it may ... whether it's the, the most important or the 10th most important. We know it's important. If we know that's important, how do we get there? And as you said, I think skipping is the way, so I'm, I'm on board with the skipping movement. Let's get everybody skipping, because it is. As I said, this is your ability to be plyometric, to work on those e- eccentric force capacities, and move in a way in which you can actually express yourself
- 1:08:00 – 1:12:18
Naming Importance & Public Health; Skipping, Plyometrics
- SMStu McMillan
again.
- AHAndrew Huberman
There's this, um, peculiarity to, um, anything related to health and public health, in particular. Uh, for instance, a colleague of mine at Stanford, um, Dr. David Spiegel, he's our, uh, vice chair of psychiatry, and he and his father actually founded this area of psychiatry, which is basically hypnosis for the treatment of trauma, for pain relief, for, uh, smoking cessation. And there are tremendously good data to support it as a practice. It's actually approved by the American Psychiatric Association, one of only four, I think, behavioral things. Uh, EMDR, cognitive behavioral therapy, hypnosis, and I think there's another. In any case, the problem, it's called hypnosis, and people hear hypnosis-
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... and their mind goes to balking and squawking like a chicken on a stage. This is why we refer to deliberate respiration as opposed to breath work in our studies, our clinical trials on that, which David and I have published, et cetera. And it's, it's not euphemism. The, the issue is, the name is a separator often, and that's a shame when there's a practice that's very valuable. Yoga Nidra, non-sleep deep rest.
- SMStu McMillan
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Right?
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah, yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I have tremendous respect for Yoga Nidra and, and all of its, um, er, er, early, uh, creators, and ... but th- the language is a separator. I'm sorry. And it ... and there's a, there's a public health mission that, to me, is more important than the naming. Just say that, and I'll take the heat for it with no guilt whatsoever. Skipping, unless it's skipping rope, has this connotation of, of childlike activity, let's just be honest. And adults doing childlike behavior, while not necessarily a problem in its own right, I mean, look at all these adults with social media accounts acting like children and the children acting like adults (laughs) , different discussion entirely. But what if we were to give it a different name, not with the intention of pretending it's not skipping-
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... but to relieve people's guilt and shame about doing it?
- SMStu McMillan
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, is it bounding? Bounding is a little bit, um, more nondescript for most people.
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, I'm having this conversation with you openly in public here-
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... in front of many, many people, um, to illustrate a couple of points. One is that the name oftentimes when people are like, "I'm not gonna skip down the street," but there's so much value to this that I think it'd be a real shame to m- to l- lose the opportunity to have it, um, wick out to many, many millions of people-
- SMStu McMillan
It-
- AHAndrew Huberman
... because it's called skipping.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah. It's plyometrics.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It's plyometrics. Great. Love it.
- SMStu McMillan
And it is a ... Like, bounding is left to right, so you go left, right, left, right, left, right. Left ... Bounding is really, really difficult, extremely challenging. Skipping is a regression from bounding, so if you can't bound ... If you can bound, great. Go and do some bounding. Chances are, if you can't sprint, you can't bound. Like, it's really, really hard to do real, true, you know, high quality bounding. We can all skip. So look at it that way. This is plyometrics. This is just the ... your most simple and probably, for most people, your most effective means of giving your body a plyometric activity. How else are you gonna do? You're jumping onto the box is not a plyometric. That's all concentric. It's basically useless. It's a waste of time. Let's find eccentric things to do.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- SMStu McMillan
And what is your best eccentric or the w- or the one that is the simplest, the one, as you said, we spent an entire childhood doing, it's familiar to us, there's something innate in this, there really is? Skipping.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- SMStu McMillan
So just think about it as being a plyometric. I'm gonna do my plyos today. And by the way, this isn't something that I've just made up. There is not a sprint group on the planet that don't skip. Every single sprinter skips, every single one of them, because of the qu- of the importance of this specific gait pattern. It's really important.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I love that. Thank you. Um, and you also saved me from trying to find a, a name that, uh, you know. (laughs)
- SMStu McMillan
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, plyometric.
- 1:12:18 – 1:14:06
Sponsor: Function
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function. Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health. This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more. They've also recently added tests for toxins such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics and tests for PFASs or forever chemicals. Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas. For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC and acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification. And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked. Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important. There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test. The problem is, blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated. In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost. It is very affordable. As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman. Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Podcast listeners. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
- 1:14:06 – 1:22:27
Cross-Body Coordination, Rotation, Gaits; Phones & Posture
- AHAndrew Huberman
One thing that people will immediately realize when they go out and, and skip, when they do their plyometric skipping, um, that's a little bit hard to understand just from hearing us have this conversation, but just trust me on this, are the two things that are very surprising and immensely positive. At least two things. One is this expressive component and the way it reshapes your psychology and your mood. I want to set that aside, but make sure we return to that. The other is the, um, cross-body coordination of movement.
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
The fact that one knee is back toward the butt on one side and the opposite arm is raised up, just naturally as you skip-
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
This is just, you know-
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
In fact, if you're wondering now, "Oh, goodness, do I actually know how to skip?" Um, that occurred to me a couple times yesterday 'cause I had many cameras on me. I thought, "Do I still remember how to skip?" I'd been skipping the night before in preparation. I didn't know we were gonna skip, but I've always worked some skips in if nobody's looking. I'm a skip-in-private kind of guy. Um...
- SMStu McMillan
Until now.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Until now. Now I skip with pride-
- SMStu McMillan
There you go.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... in public.
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um...
- SMStu McMillan
Plyometrics.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I will. Plyometric in public, that's right. But one thing that was interesting, I would think, okay, we'd, we'd get back after walking, I'd think, "Okay, we're gonna skip again. How do I do this?" It's basically, I, I would think about lunging, kind of a fast lunge out, and then it automatically would put me into that, that motion of-
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... of skipping.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, but this cross-body coordination is incredible for purposes of motor neuron coordination across the body, for the fascial component. Could we talk a little bit more about cross-body coordination?
- SMStu McMillan
Mm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Because I'd like at some point to talk about sprinting a little bit, because even if people aren't going to sprint, this idea that when we're sprinting, we're not just turning over our legs faster. Of course the arms are pumping, but the arms and legs are coordinated in a very interesting way, that the forces are actually running like a, like an X from, uh, across from one shoulder down the leg and from the other shoulder, which is gonna sound very, um, complicated to people, but you'll explain it. So, cross-body coordination.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, when we walk we do this.
- SMStu McMillan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Some people don't. They're kind of robotic. Yeah.
- SMStu McMillan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But most people flow their arms as they walk.
- SMStu McMillan
If, if we were to put a camera above the earth and look down on everybody, you would see this very distinctly at every single gait, starting with walking. We rotate, so the, the pelvis rotates up and down and forward and back. So it oscillates and undulates, and th- then the shoulders counter-oscillate and counter-undulate. So the shoulders go ba- forward and backward and up and down. Just pay attention to this next time you're out for a walk. You can feel your hips going backwards and forwards and also going up and down. If they didn't go up and down, you'd trip yourself every step, and the shoulders do the same. And then you have a spine, which is this column of a bunch of different pieces that connects the shoulder to the pelvis, which also rotates, side bends, and flexes and extends. The whole system is this big torsional system, this cross-body system. And some people take maximum utility of this system, and you can see it, like some of the best movers, some of the best sprinters, you just watch them and you can, you can just see how they wind up and they coil into every single step and they just use this cross-body coordination so effectively. And as you said, some others are just, it doesn't seem like there's any rotation going on here at all. What looks better to you? Who looks better? It's the ones that are using this effectively that look, okay, that just looks better. I don't know why necessarily, but that looks way more athletic.
Episode duration: 3:01:06
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