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DJ Shipley on Huberman Lab: How SEALs Train Resilience

Structure your evening to make your morning routine automatic, Shipley says. He covers how seal teams manage stress and why mission focus rebuilds identity.

DJ ShipleyguestAndrew HubermanhostGuest 2guest
Oct 6, 20253h 42mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 4:03

    DJ Shipley

    1. DS

      (sighs) I had a lot of emotional stuff happen to me in that second deployment. You know, my, my idol, Mattie Roberts, I've talked about him a couple of times, I really, really hung onto that dude. Like, he was my true north, like he was the guy, and when he got shot up, (sighs) when you see it happen, you know, but I think that was the c- uh, the closest call for fire mission the entire Iraq War. Like, inside a 15 meters, I mean, cordy mic mic from an AC-130 gunship, I mean it was on top of you, a belt-fed machine gun just chewing us up. Everybody shot up except for me and one other guy and we were all crowded behind this tractor tire just, and you felt like a victim. Like, I felt helpless. You know, I'm getting rounds poured all over me and at a certain point you just go, "I'd rather run back into the front of this thing and get killed with all of them than be the lone survivor."

    2. AH

      (Intro music plays) Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is DJ Shipley. DJ Shipley is a retired Navy SEAL who served for 17 years, much of that time as a Tier 1 operator, meaning part of an elite, highly selective special operation unit within the SEALS. In recent years, DJ has emerged as a top public educator on the topics of how to structure your days to maximize your mindset for sake of physical and mental health, as well as performance in work or school and to best support and build your closest relationships. As you'll soon learn from DJ, there are key points in your day when you can take specific physical steps, including but not limited to physical exercise, to shift your mind away from rumination, distraction and frustration to a state of immense clarity, focus and drive. Through trial and error, DJ has figured out, and he shares with us how that process is done and how you can do it too, right down to the details. What he describes goes way beyond a standard morning routine or evening routine, and most importantly, is accessible to all of us. You also won't hear any cliches or fluff in today's discussion. DJ is very specific about what to do and when and how in order to become the best possible version of yourself. You'll often hear those words out there, how to become the best version of yourself or reach your potential, but what DJ does so beautifully is he explains exactly how to do that, and he shares his story of how he joined and moved through the SEAL teams and the victories, but of course also the immense challenges and losses that he and his teammates experienced. We also discuss addiction, PTSD and depression, and new paths for overcoming those, in particular a new medical treatment, ibogaine followed by DMT, and how that's being used to help veterans overcome addiction, PTSD and suicidality. I've paid close attention to that work over the last five years because the brain imaging aspect is being done by my colleague, Dr. Nolan Williams at Stanford. I should mention that the ibogaine/DMT process we discuss is not a recreational one. Rather, it's being done as part of clinical trials and dedicated research studies. DJ explains that process firsthand and at the same time I should mention that ibogaine and DMT are still illegal in the United States. They are not FDA approved, so no one should explore their use outside of these clinical trials. However, the FDA is looking seriously at these compounds and approval for them seems quite likely in the next 12 months or so. Today's discussion is one that anybody, male, female, young or old, can benefit from. DJ has immense knowledge, he has immense experience, and he has an incredible ability to take what he's learned and turn it into actionable steps so you can improve your mental health, physical health and performance and become the best possible version of yourself. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with DJ Shipley.

  2. 4:03 – 8:35

    Mental & Physical Health, Tools: Morning Routine & Micro-wins

    1. AH

      DJ Shipley, welcome.

    2. DS

      Thank you so much for having me, man.

    3. AH

      Let's talk about mental health, physical health and spiritual health, but not all at once. (laughs) You talk a lot about and you post a lot about mental health, but I've noticed that a lot of that takes on a, a sort of a protocolly approach where you use physical steps to approach mental health and vice versa.

    4. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. AH

      So, what's your framework on this thing that we call mental health? I'm not asking you to solve the mental health crisis in one swoop, but when you think about your own mental health, the people close to you, people you've worked with in the teams, you know, how do you approach mental health as a concept and as an actionable thing?

    6. DS

      I've lived so many different stages in my life, high points and low points and everything in between, and at, at my lowest point, I had no physical connection. I was either down hard with an injury, coming back from surgery, and then my mental health, rapid decline right after that. And for someone who never suffered from mental health issues, it's shocking and you feel like you're the only person going through it, especially when you come from a subculture of special operations. Nobody ever talks about it. So when you find yourself in that dark room alone, really contemplating some terrible things, it's hard to wrap your head around because you're the only person that's ever gone through it. And, you know, had some really good strength coaches and coming back from injuries and the better I got physically, my mental health naturally just started to pull out of it, and, but everything we did was for the group. So all my physical attributes, everything I'm training is for the betterment of the group. Now it's betterment of my family, of my tribe, of whatever I have, but, you know, I talk about this thing stacking up micro wins. My morning routine is structured in a way to where I can do that same routine everywhere I go, everywhere. At any point of day, I can lock that thing in, but it all starts with an evening routine. So when my phone goes off at 5:00 AM and I spring feet out of bed, I know exactly what I'm gonna do for the next 12 minutes to put myself in position to not be stressed.... so I've got to power down my home life and I've just got to think about what's coming next. So laying out the clothes the night before, my bottle of water is filled, my pills are out, my toothbrush is out, everything is set. So as soon as I get up, by the time I get to making my morning cup of coffee, I've done 25 things inside of my control.

    7. AH

      Do you know off the top of your head what those things are right now that maybe you could just list them off? You said y- your alarm clock goes off 5:00 AM.

    8. DS

      Yep.

    9. AH

      And that's regardless of when you went to sleep?

    10. DS

      Regardless of when I went to sleep, typically.

    11. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    12. DS

      I mean, if I'm out here, I'm on a different time zone-

    13. AH

      Sure.

    14. DS

      ... and I can change it, but for the most part-

    15. AH

      But if you get to bed at midnight or you get to bed at 9:00 PM or you get to bed at 2:00 AM, alarm goes off at 5:00 AM, you're up?

    16. DS

      And my wife gave me this the other day, I came home on a red-eye. I didn't walk through the door until 2:30 in the morning. And alarm clock goes off at 5:00 and she rolls over and she's like, "What are you doing?" "I'm going to work." And she's like, "You can take a day off." I'm like, "No, I'm not taking a day off." This last five days is the first time in as long as I can, 20 years, that I've actually taken five days of not working out when I have the physical ability to do it.

    17. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    18. DS

      I've never taken five days off because I'm so afraid my mental health will drop.

    19. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    20. DS

      Something will happen if I leave that routine. So I wake up, unplug my phone, shut off the alarm. I walk in, toothpaste on toothbrush. I go to the bathroom, while I'm brushing my teeth, spit it out, all the pills I gotta take in the morning, you know, vitamin D, all the stuff I take, and then I get dressed. Left sock, right sock, right shoe, l- I, everything I do, I do it in a very specific order. Even the way I put on my bracelets. If I put 'em on in the wrong order, I'll stop and I'll de-jock 'em all and I'll re don 'em, just because that's one simple thing. I'm not rushed. I'm not under duress. I'm in control this entire timeline. And that way when I get to the kitchen, I don't feel like I'm frantic, "Where are my keys? Where's my wallet? Where's my bag?" Everything's in a system right now to where I can step in that car, I'm not stuck behind a school bus, my car has gas in it, my phone's at 100%. 'Cause we've all been there. Everybody's a normal person. I wake up, my wife wants to have a 15-minute conversation, that puts me behind that school bus that I'm typically not behind. Now I'm late for my first meeting, I've gotta rush through my workout, I don't have time to take a shower. All that is gonna cascade and it's gonna put me to be the person I don't wanna be when I have to walk into that first meeting. It's like, I'm trying to optimize everything that's within my control so when I step through the threshold, this is the DJ that I'm purposely presenting to you right now, under my control. And that really sets the entire framework for the whole day of being in a good head space. I'm controlling the things that are controllable, and the things that I can't control, I don't think about 'em anymore. I block 'em out.

  3. 8:35 – 13:46

    Balancing Work & Family, Tools: Compartmentalization, "Control the Controllable"

    1. DS

    2. AH

      I love the regimen, um, and your adherence to it. I'm curious about your mindset when the alarm goes off.

    3. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    4. AH

      Meaning, where is your head? I guess, I know you're human (laughs) and I understand enough about the brain to make an assumption, which is that you don't wake up every morning with the alarm going off at 5:00 thinking, "Great, I'm gonna get up and just roll right into the day," that there may be times when y- you consider, you know, going into fetal position, you know, it's warm under those covers.

    5. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    6. AH

      But also that your mind, like anyone else's, probably starts spinning. You, it leaps to the past, leaps to the, you know, you have m- a little more stress than you'd like, a low- a low- a little more, uh, lethargy, this kind of thing. Do you purposely stack up to-dos so that you stay out of all of that? And if some of that persists as you're brushing your teeth, w- what's the, what's the way of dealing with that?

    7. DS

      I just keep pushing.

    8. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    9. DS

      I just keep myself in motion the entire time, and I talk about dials not switches a lot with people. And it sounds selfish, but I have to be selfish right now in order to be selfless later. So I tell guys, you know, as soon as that alarm clock goes off, I'm not thinking about my wife, I'm not thinking about my kids. I'm thinking about being as efficient as humanly possible and I'm trying to hit that gym so I unrack at 07:00 the best version of me. And I can't do it if I'm thinking about a fight or an argument we had with the wife the night before, the kids, and this and that. I have to be selfish right now because this is the only block I'm gonna have for me to optimize myself, 'cause at 10:00 AM, I'm gonna get pulled from 50 different directions. It's the exact same thing when I go home. So now between the hours of 10:00 AM and 6:00 PM, I'm only thinking about work. I don't think about my wife, don't think about my kids. I only think about the team and everything we're trying to do. At 6:00, you can watch and I tell everybody, "If you would put a hidden camera in my car, it'd break the internet." I do it every day. I slam that car into park. I put my phone on do not disturb. I check social, I check all my texts. I'm good. There's no phone calls and I've got a 12-minute drive from door to door. Those 12 minutes, I put on Chris Stapleton, something that makes me feel good, that calms me down, and I pre-rehearse everything that's gonna happen the moment I hit that garage door opener.

    10. AH

      Really?

    11. DS

      I do it every single day.

    12. AH

      I realize it's personal, but to the extent that you're willing, maybe share a couple of the, what, what you're rehearsing.

    13. DS

      Yeah. I pull onto the driveway, I slam it back in park, I check my phone one more time and I tell myself, "You're only gonna have three hours, from 6:00 to 9:00, to be the person they need you to be." You gotta be a full-time dad right now. You gotta be a full-time husband. And I don't get it right every time. Some days, I drag that stuff home with me, two-hand texting frantically, but I really try not to. And before I hit that garage door, I tell myself like, "They don't know what's going on. They don't know the stress you're at at work. She's had her own day. They've had their own day." I mean, I've got a, I've got a daughter in seventh grade, I've got another one, uh, second grade, like, you know, we gotta work through this whole thing together and it's like, what version of me do I want to present to them right now? I'm gonna walk in, bag's over my right shoulder, I'm gonna clear the threshold and make an immediate 90-degree turn, and there's gonna be that seven-year-old. And she's a huge ball of energy. She gets all shaken. She runs at me at full blast and I pick her up, shake her, kiss her, like 100% love. Take an immediate right in the kitchen, there's my oldest, usually eating something before homework's about to start. Give her a kiss, give her a hug, ask her how her day was. Straight to the room to see my wife, 'cause she's got a, she gets like a 30-minute buffer before she has to go upstairs and lock in with seventh grade homework. Check her, "What do you need?" If you can fold the towels, if you can start dinner, done. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So my last interaction in the morning was positive. I left on a positive note. The first interaction you're getting at the end of the day is in a positive note, and regardless of how I'm feeling, if I have to fake it, I'll fake it.

    14. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    15. DS

      I got three hours, and if you space over the course of five days, I don't have a lot of time to make positive memories. Just because of work and stress and everything else, I'm trying to maximize those three hours, and then when I do, it feels like you can do no wrong. But every night after we finish dinner, me and my wife do a 20-minute walk. 10 minutes for her, so as soon as we start it, "Tell me about your day." Everything she wants to vent through, everything we gotta get caught up on, we hit the halfway mark right around this park, and then it's my turn for 10 minutes. Uh, average human can walk a mile in 20 minutes, helps circadian rhythm, helps digestion, I mean, mental clarity. I'm not on my phone. There's no stimulus. I mean, I'm watching the sunset. It's... But now it's 20 minutes just for us to reconnect, and we do it every single day. Unless it's a torrential downpour-

    16. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    17. DS

      ... we're doing it every single night, and our marriage has never been better. My physical health has never been better, and then my time with my kids, I can be accountable for every single minute in my day. Did I maximize that opportunity? No. Why? Because I drug that dude home with me from, you know, 2:30 in the afternoon. I drug him all the way home till 6:00. That's not who they need. They don't need a commando. They don't need a business owner. They don't need an entrepreneur. They need a dude that's gonna have a tea party right now, or a guy that's gonna talk about how difficult navigating seventh grade is. Like, she really needs a husband that's gonna be fully present because I haven't been for the majority of our marriage. I've been gone, you know, 300 days out of the year. She really just needs a buddy who's gonna help parent, and if I'm not mentally there, I'm never gonna get there. So I set conditions to where I can be the person I need to be no matter what threshold I'm walking through, and it's been hugely beneficial for me.

  4. 13:46 – 16:25

    Sponsors: Rorra & BetterHelp

    1. DS

    2. AH

      Perhaps one of the most underestimated but powerful tools to improve your mental health, your physical performance, and your cognitive performance is ensuring you get enough hydration every day. The unfortunate reality, however, is that tap water often contains contaminants that negatively impact our health. So while we're trying to get great hydration, that can cause serious problems. In fact, a 2020 study by the Environmental Working Group estimated that more than 200 million Americans are exposed to PFAS chemicals, also known as forever chemicals, through drinking tap water. These forever chemicals are linked to serious health issues, such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems, some of which are just now coming to light. For all these reasons, I was thrilled when I came across RORA water filters, and now they're a sponsor of this podcast. RORA makes what I believe are the best water filters on the market. I've been using the RORA countertop system for almost a year now. RORA's filtration technology removes harmful substances, including endocrine disruptors and disinfection byproducts, while preserving beneficial minerals like magnesium and calcium. It requires no installation or plumbing, so it's extremely convenient. It's built from medical-grade stainless steel, and it fits beautifully on your countertop. It's something that you would want to have in your kitchen. What's additionally impressive to me is RORA's transparency. You can find all of their independent third-party test results right on their website, and they report reduction data over the full life of the filter. If you'd like to try RORA, you can go to rora.com/huberman and get an exclusive discount. Again, that's RORA, R-O-R-R-A, dot-com slash Huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp. BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online. I personally have been doing therapy for well over 35 years. I find it to be an extremely important component to overall health. In fact, I consider doing regular therapy just as important as getting regular exercise, including cardiovascular exercise and resistance training, which, of course, I also do every week. There are essentially three things that great therapy provides. First of all, great therapy provides good rapport with somebody that you can really trust and discuss any issues with. Second of all, it can provide support in the form of emotional guidance or directed guidance toward specific actions you wanna take in your life. And third, expert therapy can provide you with useful insights, insights that can allow you to make changes to improve your life not just at the emotional level, but also your relationship life, your professional life, and on and on. With BetterHelp, they make it very easy to find an expert therapist that can help provide these benefits that come through expert therapy, and it's carried out entirely online, so it's extremely convenient. If you'd like to try BetterHelp, you can go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month. Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.

  5. 16:25 – 23:05

    Phones, Social Media vs Focus, Negativity, Tool: Consistency & Sleep

    1. AH

      What an awesome example-

    2. DS

      Yeah.

    3. AH

      ... and, and the two dos are super impressive. I wonder if we could just explore a little bit of the, uh, to-not dos.

    4. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. AH

      Uh, a lot of what you described, it's clear it requires having the phone away. I mean, I could go on and on about phones, (laughs) um, but the incoming is incessant, right? W- you know, and the temptation is really tough to deal with.

    6. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    7. AH

      So when you walk in the door, because you're with family, phone is in the car or it's just shut off. During the day, uh, when you're going about your work, is it understood that if your wife wants to get ahold of you, she can, but that it's- there's a high threshold for that? 'Cause I think a lot of couples get into, you know, like just pinging each other here and there, this and that. Um, even in business teams, there's a lot of unnecessary communication.

    8. DS

      I'm fortunate now that my wife actually works inside the business, so she gets it, and she knows that once I lock in, when that camera turns on, that microphone goes on, you gotta leave me alone. And I tell people, like, "I'm not trained to do this." I'm a normal dude, so I'm really susceptible to negative energy, and they know better. Don't slam me with something negative before I have to turn that microphone on, 'cause I'm not gonna be able to compartmentalize it all the way. I need to be the best version of me right now, so wait till I'm done and then deliver the bad news. And she's the same way. She's, she's an absolute gangster, and she knows. She's like, "Hey, when you get done today, we gotta talk." I'm like, "What is it?" And she says, "Nothing bad." It'll definitely be something bad, but she doesn't even give me an inkling 'cause she knows it'll rob me of bandwidth. She's like, "Go do what you do. As soon as you get done, we'll talk," and on that 20-minute walk, she'll drop it. But now we're here. I'm in a clear headspace. I've had a productive day. We've had a great 10 minutes into this. Now hit me with the bad news. Last 10 minutes, we'll solve it together.

    9. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    10. DS

      But not getting on that social media first thing in the morning. I used to be the guy, I'd roll over. I'd immediately open up Instagram, and I'm checking it. What are the comments? How's the posting doing? How's this? How's that?... you'll stay there for 40 minutes.

    11. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    12. DS

      And then if you see something negative, I'll ride that, I'll wear that jacket all day long. I can't get it away from me.

    13. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    14. DS

      So, I don't take a Zoom call, I don't take a phone call. There's nothing that happens inside of my orbit before 10:00 AM. From 7:00 to 10:00, that's my morning block. I've got the whole team in there. We do fitness from 7:00 to 9:00. I make them all do a 20-minute walk. I make the whole team protein shakes. I take a shower, and at 10:00 AM, I walk out. "Hit me with it. What have we gotta do? We're going to range in my training, and we're shooting content, what are we doing right now? You have full bandwidth until I leave here." And if I run till midnight, we run till midnight, but you have both barrels of me at 100% because I've controlled that entire morning routine. And it's been the best thing that's ever happened to us. But (inhales deeply) you gotta be consistent. It's like everything else.

    15. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    16. DS

      What's the best diet? The one you'll stick to.

    17. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    18. DS

      And that morning routine has been the biggest game-changer I've had.

    19. AH

      That's awesome. Uh, I feel like, um, the teams, and I've been fortunate to know and work with some folks in, uh, from the teams, uh, seem to have, uh, what I call kind of an unconscious genius, like the-

    20. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    21. AH

      ... uh, as a whole, as a system. Uh, we, we could talk about buds, we could talk about selection for tier one stuff, we could talk about any of that, and we, and we will, but seems to me that a lot of the practices that are built up in the teams and in team guys who are successful when they transition out, uh, are built around this notion I just call unconscious genius, where they weren't thinking about, like, "What's the underlying neural circuitry?" Or this and that. And everything you describe, by the way, is, is extremely actionable for anybody.

    22. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    23. AH

      I love that you told us, and I'm, I'm gonna underscore this, highlight it, and bold it right now, is that doesn't matter if you went to bed at 2:30 AM or you went to bed at midnight, you're, you're getting up at the same time. It's actually critical for keeping sleep rhythms healthy, and i- uh, one thing from the literature I'll just share is that it's clear that, um, if people have the same wake-up time each day, that whatever sleep they get prior to that wake-up time, you get the maximum amount of growth hormone released that's possible, which is, of course, cru- crucial for recovery.

    24. DS

      Yep.

    25. AH

      Not just growing muscles, but recovery, et cetera. So, um, so there's that. You guys came to that. There's that kind of, you didn't need to know the science. You just arrived at it. But also, the brain is so context-dependent. And, uh, and, uh, throughout your description, I keep hearing that, you know, if there's ... you'll wear that jacket all day long. Like, it can pull you in. I mean, you're a strong-minded individual. You know how to control your own behavior, clearly, but you c- you are susceptible like anybody else. And I always think of, um, mental states as that, you know, we can either be like a ball bearing on a flat surface, where that ball bearing can go anywhere with even just the slightest tilt or even a breeze, um, versus, you know, little dimples in that surface, where it can kind of reside, but it can get blown out or pushed out easily. And ultimately, what we're all seeking is to drop like a ball bearing into a trench. And rage bait and numbing out, which are the two kind of core features of social media (laughs) , except there's this other opportunity to learn, I feel like, uh, those r- drop us immediately into that trench. And so, I feel like our brain wants to be the ball bearing at the bottom of that trench. But it's tempting to not do the work to get there. And so, there are things in the world, highly processed, highly palatable foods, um, you know, uh, certain aspects of social media, 'cause I don't think all of it is unhealthy, that provide that opportunity to drop into that trench. And so clearly, um, the unconscious genius here, uh, is that you arrived at, it seems, an understanding that you're very context dependent. You know? It's not that you're so robust internally that you can throw anything your way. It's exactly because you're, if I may, you're not that robust internally, that you understand the brain, that you can't let anything come your way, but if you set the context internally, then the rest of your day is maybe not a breeze, but it's workable. And you'll stay that ball bearing in the trench that you're determining. Do I have that right?

    26. DS

      Exactly.

    27. AH

      Okay. So, I think this is important, because I think a lot of people hear about, um, special operators and high performers and their structure and their routine, and they assume, they wake up and they're like, "Into the day, nothing's gonna bother me." It's because things bo- have the potential to bother you that you have to structure it that way.

    28. DS

      Yep.

    29. AH

      Okay. Uh, for me, that's very helpful to hear. Um, and then you're, I think you're also defining the difference between, uh, an artist, I know a lot of artists who need to, they kind of float about their day, they're two hours late to things, and then the, the, the stuff emerges, right? I mean, I can tell you stories about people in Los Angeles and how meeting times, and I'm a little guilty of this, but it's incredible the way that things just kind of orbit around certain people and then they're, but then they bring the magic, and so the world conti- continues to orbit around them-

    30. DS

      Yeah.

  6. 23:05 – 29:24

    Routine & Stressors, Exercise & Benefits, Tool: Morning Workout

    1. AH

      life. So, um, let's say you have a morning where something goes wrong. There's no toothpaste in the toothbrush.

    2. DS

      (laughs)

    3. AH

      Or, or something more serious, like, like your wife really needs to talk about something.

    4. DS

      Yep.

    5. AH

      Maybe she's so, you know, uh, you know, together that that never happens. Will you forgo those minutes or do you make, or how do you, how do you deal with that?

    6. DS

      Situation really dictates. When I was in, I wouldn't. I'd wake up before everybody else is in there and, and it's a lot of stuff I tell to the new guys in special operations, like, if you sacrifice your sleep when it doesn't affect anyone else, you can really lay the foundation for greatness. Right?

    7. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    8. DS

      Your first four years, don't rush to make her your girlfriend. Don't make her your wife. Don't have a kid. Don't get a dog. Just focus on being a Green Beret. Focus on being a Navy SEAL, and just do that. Then when that girlfriend turns into a fiance, you can have the bandwidth to do them both. It's very hard to do that job, you know, build that (laughs) , build that boat at the high seas, and now you're dragging your wife into it. It's hard to do. But, you know, situation dictates. If it's something I really have to solve, we really have to solve it, but she knows no matter what, I'm unracking at 07. I'm not missing this for you. I'm not missing it for everybody else, because she knows what's going to happen. So, she'll either grab me at lunch, "Hey, do you have a block here we can talk?" For sure. We'll maybe start the initial conversation. If it starts going south or I think it's gonna take long, I'll look down at my watch, like-... "Honey, I gotta go. I got 12 minutes to be there." She's like, "Okay. We'll catch you for lunch." "Cool." And we'll go. I can't miss morning movement. I can't do it. That will ruin my day.

    9. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    10. DS

      And if I'm rushed through morning movement, if somebody comes in, somebody beats on the door and they're like, "Hey, we were in the neighborhood, just wanted to come see you, can we talk for 20 minutes?" "No. You can't. No. I'm sorry." And I, I know it sounds bad. You can't, 'cause I know what happens if I miss this day and I'm not willing to take the chance on you right now. You can wait an hour. Wait till I'm done. But it's hard, you know. And now we've kind of restructured the whole day to where I can get my time in in the morning and I can leave with just enough time to see my kids wake up now. They're pouring cereal, so now I get that little dopamine hit of seeing them and I kick off their morning in a positive way. Right? I'm doing red light therapy in the morning. I'm still gonna unrack at 0:07. I'm still getting up at 5:00, but now I'm just in the house getting everything processed. I'm gonna leave on my terms and that way they get to see me first thing in the morning. I only get three hours at night. Well, if I get 30 minutes in the morning, stacked over the course of a year, that's a huge difference.

    11. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    12. DS

      It's like we've restructured the entire day with the whole team is also on that exact same schedule. Right? And it's not just me, it's not just my world. I mean, business partners, Cole and everybody else, everybody who does that morning block of fitness, that's why I've been pushing it this whole time. And if you look at anybody in the military, anybody in fire department, anybody in special operations, and military in general, everybody's day always starts with fitness. When you're in boot camp, you wake up, you do a workout, and then you eat. When you go into BUD/S, you wake up, you work out essentially all day long, go to sleep, it's the same thing. When you get to the SEAL Team, you do the same thing. Everybody wakes up, everybody does fitness the very first thing, and then we start our day. It's been really successful. Why would I ever break that? And you see guys, when they transition out, they get away from it. They gain a bunch of weight. They start drinking. "You working out five days a week?" "No." "Why? You've been doing it since you were 17 years old. Why would you break it now? Why?"

    13. AH

      Yeah, why do you think that, that that happens?

    14. DS

      I think guys use excuses, injuries, limitations, lack of motivation. Like, "Oh, there's no reason for me to be in shape." Longevity of life. Everybody says, "Oh, I'd take a bullet for my kids." You won't lose 40 pounds for them. You want prolonged life, if you think you're a real asset to your family, why wouldn't you try to maximize that time? So I look at them now. It doesn't take a whole lot. Like, you don't have to be David Goggins. You don't have to run 100 miles a day. You can wake up and do a 20-minute walk every single day and you'll be better off for it. You could grab a set of kettlebells. 30 minutes in your garage. That is something every single day that makes you exponentially better just through the repetition of being there, being present, being a little selfish right now so you can be selfish later. So for me, if I don't get that workout in, and everybody's got stuff going on, I do too, if I don't get that block of fitness in, I will think about that all day long. I'll think about it for weeks.

    15. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    16. DS

      We go back, the next time we hit that muscle group, I don't get the same numbers I thought I would. Well, that's 'cause I took Monday off. I'm never gonna put myself in that position. I don't wanna have to have that excuse, so I just, I set the foundation, I lay it down, I stamp it on a piece of paper. That's what I'm doing. I'm not compromising on it. And it's been, it's been great for us.

    17. AH

      That's awesome. I mean, as somebody who got into resistance training in his teens, and, and running, I, I, I confess over the years I felt some guilt around working out because in my community of scientists, I mean, now I have a much broader community. You know, you go to meetings, everyone's sitting all day and eating bad food and then, you know, and then it was happy hour. Uh, I was never much of a drinker, but I would participate a bit until eventually I just stopped, um, drinking entirely, and occasionally I would sneak off during some of the, I'll just be honest, the weak talks. I was like, "Uh, I've, I've seen this person speak before, I'm gonna get a workout in." And only once did I ever run into a colleague in the gym at one of these places and we both were like, it was like getting caught doing something bad.

    18. DS

      Yeah.

    19. AH

      But then the years went by and I saw my colleagues start to die. I saw my colleagues start to get sick. Uh, I saw my colleagues start to resemble melted candles. And these were people that had a lot of robustness, and they also had a lot to offer, and families and friends. And so, um, I think nowadays people think about physical fitness a little bit differently. They understand it's an investment and therefore it's beneficial to the people around you, but I still see a lot of people, um, kind of couch it, especially with respect to anything that relates to muscle as kind of selfish and narcissistic and this kind of thing. And, um, I think it's so important that people understand the mental health benefits, but also the benefits that it can bring the people in your life. Uh, and not just longevity, but just the person that it brings. You really understand yourself. You know, in the back of my mind I'm thinking about, you know, the oracle, know thyself. It's like so important. If you don't get that workout, you, you're gonna have to force out being best husband, best dad, best teammate. And if you do get that workout, they still get that best dad, everything, but it's, it's that much more genuine and, and it, and it comes, it

  7. 29:24 – 33:53

    Body Awareness, Hurt vs Injury

    1. AH

      probably is in abundance.

    2. DS

      One of the things that nobody ever talks about is your body awareness. When you do fitness for a long time, 50 years old, you've been doing fitness for a very long time.

    3. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    4. DS

      You are so in tune with that vessel-

    5. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    6. DS

      ... that when something does pop up, you identify right away.

    7. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    8. DS

      When you don't, you're like, "Uh, my back kind of hurts." "Where?" "Uh..." You don't know. I'm in tune with that thing so well that when I walk into a doctor, I'm like, take a needle three inches down, rotate it over 45 degrees, and that's where it is. I'm like, "Okay, this is it."

    9. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    10. DS

      I'm so in tune with it, so when anything pops up, I can diagnose it. I can walk in and give them actual feedback what's happening. I'm not just sitting on the couch all day long just, "That guy, my neck kind of hurts." No, I know exactly what it is. I'm doing a full diagnostic approach the entire day.

    11. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    12. DS

      And that's why I've got Vernon. I mean, he's the best strength coach in the world, and if I wouldn't have that guy, I would be... (laughs) I mean, he's brought me back from the dead more times than I can count. But it's five days a week. I mean, he's in there every day, so if I walk in and I've got a slight limp on my left side, he's like, "Hey, my man, come over here. What is that?" And I was like, "Ah, nothing." He said, "Bruce Lee,"Yeah, how'd you know it was a bruise too? It's like, "I watched that broad jump on Friday. Like, you landed a little funky. I wanted to see if it was gonna mess with you." He ID'd it, I ID'd it.

    13. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    14. DS

      I just wasn't gonna say anything. Okay, what are you gonna do about it? Right? Be proact- instead of reactive.

    15. AH

      Yeah.

    16. DS

      But that's because you're chipping away and, you know, you understand yourself so well because you are constantly in tune with your body and people just forget about it. Like, "Why aren't you sleeping?" "Oh, I had caffeine at 4:00." "Oh." I'm accountable for everything I put in my body and then everything that comes out of me. The gym's just one of the methods that really ties them all together for me.

    17. AH

      The body awareness piece, I think, is something that, uh, we should also underscore a bit. Uh, I think one thing that happens if people don't develop body awareness is that they don't learn the difference between something that hurts and an injury. A few years ago, right before going on Cam Hanes' podcast where, you know, you carry that rock. I was about to say he makes you carry the rock, but you don't have to. You know, you carry the rock up. It's- the thing's heavy. It's 72 pounds.

    18. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    19. AH

      Slippery, it's muddy. It's a thousand feet of elevation and people do it, right? You can do it. But, um, I'd popped a hamstring on the hamstring curl machine like a couple of days before.

    20. DS

      Oh.

    21. AH

      But I didn't pop pop it. Like, it didn't ravel, you know, unravel up the- up the tendon. So I was like, "I'm just not gonna talk about it. I'm not gonna say anything. I'm not gonna..." Uh, because that's gonna create its own thing. I was like, "I'm hurt, it hurt, but I'm not injured." And knowing that line-

    22. DS

      Yeah.

    23. AH

      ... is really important, 'cause if you are injured, it'd be the stupidest thing in the world to carry that rock up that hill, right? Then you end up out for six months potentially, or four months. I had years ago a back pain, kind of sciatica thing, and I could- couldn't stand up. And I actually was online, it was Instagram, and I have no business affiliation to this kid, but there was a, I think he's a chiropractor, and he has this channel called Rehab Fix. And he convinced me that what I need to do is some like updog things, so it's like you're kind of like humping the floor, you know?

    24. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    25. AH

      Your pelvis is down and you're pushing up and you're, d- repeat those as kind of, uh, like- like lizard push-ups, you know?

    26. DS

      Yeah.

    27. AH

      Um, and then against the wall if you can't actually do that from the floor. Within three days, it resolved itself.

    28. DS

      Hmm.

    29. AH

      And I was thinking about pain meds, which I don't like to take. In fact, I avoid them entirely. I was thinking m- am I gonna have to have surgery? I mean, I could not stand up. I couldn't move. I couldn't do it. And- and I realized then, I was like, "Okay, the line between hurt and truly injured is often kind of blurry and you need to be able to work through that space." And you think about this and it- it- it- through one lens and it sounds like a selfish thing, "Oh, it's all about being able to work out more." If you think abou- about it through another lens, it's, you know, people who think they're injured or- or who are in pain and don't resolve that are very difficult to be around. Very difficult. I've been that person. It's just everything grates on you.

    30. DS

      Yep.

  8. 33:53 – 44:26

    Physical Injury & Rehab; Exercise; Mobility, Tool: 5-Day Workout Program

    1. AH

      things you can do. Let's talk about, uh, what you call unracking at Zero 7.

    2. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AH

      Uh, y- d- t- tier- tier 1 operator. (laughs)

    4. DS

      (laughs)

    5. AH

      Former tier 1 operator at Zero 7. The lingo. So that, I'm- I'm guessing, is that unracking the weight? That's when the-

    6. DS

      Yep.

    7. AH

      ... workout starts. Phone is off?

    8. DS

      Phone's on because we run an app on it.

    9. AH

      Okay.

    10. DS

      So we have Vernon Griffin-

    11. AH

      But you're not looking at text messages?

    12. DS

      No.

    13. AH

      And you're not shooting selfies of your calves-

    14. DS

      No.

    15. AH

      ... and biceps?

    16. DS

      Correct.

    17. AH

      Right. I point that out in s-

    18. DS

      Yep.

    19. AH

      ... semi-jest because I always joke that the- the first rep of every set now seems to be, uh, guys in the gym taking pictures of themselves.

    20. DS

      Yeah.

    21. AH

      The last rep of every set seems to be guys taking pictures of themselves.

    22. DS

      Yeah.

    23. AH

      Um, so Zero 7, so what's that workout look like? You're doing it five days a week. Um, I know it's gonna be different for different people, but you have this program that I really wanna explore with you today about how to measure progress and set standards and meet new standards, higher standards. Uh, what does that workout look like for you?

    24. DS

      So I linked up with Vernon right when I was getting medically retired around 2019. I came back from a gnarly shoulder injury. I blew it, had a dislocation, it came through my armpit, shredded out everything. And I went from about 215 to about 180 pounds. Got stuck in a rehab clinic in, uh, in Bethesda, Maryland for 31 days in-patient and I came out like death warmed over. Worst I've ever been in my life. Worst my mental health has ever been. I did not wanna play the game anymore. And Navy SEAL Foundation hooked you up with this, uh, physical rehabilitation program in Virginia Beach, ran by a former SEAL, and Vernon was the lead strength conditioning coach. And he was my coach. And we walked in, we did full body assessments. And what's interesting about him is he took all your limitations and developed concepts and movements to establish confidence in that area. So when I came back, you know, day one he's like, "Okay, let's try to hang from the bar." I looked right at him, "No." And he's like, "What?" "No. I'm not hanging from that bar. I'm done." Like, I've done- I've done more pull-ups than most people on the planet. My pull-up days are done, man. Like, "I'm not doing it again." He goes, "You gotta trust me." I was like, "Well, it's not gonna happen on day one." Slowly but surely, I mean, I mean he's at the point where he's holding my knees. I can't even extend my arm overhead, like, I'm so-

    25. AH

      That's humbling.

    26. DS

      I- I-

    27. AH

      For a guy that, for a guy who ma- when was a tier 1 operator, that's humbling.

    28. DS

      I was so bound up by fear that he was gonna come, 'cause that was my first shoulder surgery. And if you've never had one, shoulder surgeries are the worst rehab I've ever had. And, um, I've had a lot of them. The shoulder rehab was brutal. And I didn't want it to pop. And I'd extend and I couldn't do it, I couldn't do it, and he's like, "You just gotta trust me, man. Like, doctor cleared you, the anchors have set, everything is there, but you cannot go through the rest of your life like this." He's like, "You're not even 40." He's like, "Do you wanna go another 40 years without doing a pull-up?"... you're gonna have to trust me. He'd pick me up by the legs, I'd put my arm under, and he'd slowly but surely start to extend me down until we got full range of motion. And we did that for days and weeks. Then we went to a band, then we took the band off, "I just want you to hang. Now we're gonna focus on going back up." And we built back to, I mean, I can do sets of 25 pull-ups now. Because I-

    29. AH

      You're, you're pulling your weight, which is what right now? You're...

    30. DS

      I weigh 215.

  9. 44:26 – 47:29

    Sponsors: AGZ by AG1 & Eight Sleep

    1. DS

      guy. He's an absolute lifesaver.

    2. AH

      We've known for a long time that there are things that we can do to improve our sleep, and that includes things that we can take, things like magnesium threonate, theanine, chamomile extract, and glycine, along with lesser-known things like saffron and valerian root. These are all clinically supported ingredients that can help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up feeling more refreshed. I'm excited to share that our longtime sponsor, AG1, just created a new product called AGZ, a nightly drink designed to help you get better sleep and have you wake up feeling super refreshed. Over the past few years, I've worked with the team at AG1 to help create this new AGZ formula. It has the best sleep-supporting compounds in exactly the right ratios in one easy-to-drink mix. This removes all the complexity of trying to forage the vast landscape of supplements focused on sleep and figuring out the right dosages and which ones to take for you. AGZ is, to my knowledge, the most comprehensive sleep supplement on the market. I take it 30 to 60 minutes before sleep, it's delicious by the way, and it dramatically increases both the quality and the depth of my sleep. I know that both from my subjective experience of my sleep and because I track my sleep. I'm excited for everyone to try this new AGZ formulation and to enjoy the benefits of better sleep. AGZ is available in chocolate, chocolate mint, and mixed berry flavors. And as I mentioned before, they're all extremely delicious. My favorite of the three has to be, I think, chocolate mint, but I really like them all. If you'd like to try AGZ, go to drinkagz.com/huberman to get a special offer. Again, that's drinkagz.com/huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep. Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep-tracking capacity. One of the best ways to ensure a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct, and that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees. And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees. Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs. Eight Sleep has just launched their latest model, the Pod 5, and the Pod 5 has several new important features. One of these new features is called Auto Pilot. Auto Pilot is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns to adjust the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages. It also elevates your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep. The base on the Pod 5 also has an integrated speaker that syncs to the Eight Sleep app and can play audio to support relaxation and recovery. The audio catalog includes several NSDR, non-sleep deep rest, scripts that I worked on with Eight Sleep to record. If you're not familiar, NSDR involves listening to an audio script that walks you through a deep body relaxation combined with some very simple breathing exercises. It's an extremely powerful tool that anyone can benefit from the first time and every time. If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get up to $350 off the new Pod 5. Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE. Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman

  10. 47:29 – 56:13

    Skateboarding, Career, Navy SEAL, BUD/S & Embracing Discomfort

    1. AH

      to save up to $350. The way you describe him and your interactions with him, uh, it almost takes on a sort of a mythical-like quality. I mean, like we could be talking about a movie, but thi- but this is real. And when, we'll talk about just how real it is-

    2. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AH

      ... where some very real things have happened to you by virtue of the, uh, high-risk/high-consequence career that you undertook. Uh, but, you know, when you hear about this person who's able to bring back a high performer and then get him to exceed his previous notions of what he could do and under conditions of duress and hopelessness, it's, you know, this is real life though. This is not-

    4. DS

      Yeah.

    5. AH

      ... this isn't Star Wars. This is real life. And, um, so, uh, without ever having met him, you know, uh, I can feel the, uh, the respect and, and the admiration and the gratitude you have for him, and I'm s- I'm sure everyone else can too. It's, uh, he's, uh, this is the stuff of mythology, um, but it's real. So, um, here's what I know about you.

    6. DS

      (laughs)

    7. AH

      You live in Virginia Beach.

    8. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. AH

      Uh, at one point you were interested in skateboarding and partook in skateboarding. At some point you decided to become a Navy SEAL. At some point you got electrocuted.

    10. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    11. AH

      Fill in the blanks for us.

    12. DS

      Yeah, man. I was born in, uh, San Diego, California. My dad was a SEAL. My mom was in the Navy. So when my dad graduated, my mom was nine months pregnant with me.So his whole first four years at, you know, the West Coast SEAL teams, I was one of the only kids there. So kind of grew up in the culture, you know, really ingrained into it. My first bot-

    13. AH

      On Coronado?

    14. DS

      Yep.

    15. AH

      (laughs)

    16. DS

      It's my first bottle, I'm wearing a SEAL Team 1 onesie. I mean, uh-

    17. AH

      You literally were raised on Coronado.

    18. DS

      Yeah. So I did that.

    19. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    20. DS

      We moved to the East Coast. He got transitioned over to the East Coast. I grew up the rest of my time there. Fell in love with skateboarding, that's all I wanted to do, I wanted to go pro. Got into a fight with the old man around 15 years old, something like that, and he signed me up for summer school, um, to graduate early. So I graduated at 17, hit the late entry program, joined the Navy a month later.

    21. AH

      Was that a contentious interaction? I mean-

    22. DS

      Oh, yeah.

    23. AH

      I mean, skateboarding, uh, was clearly not the right career for you. I mean, I'm sure you would have done exceedingly well there, but having grown up a bit in that culture-

    24. DS

      Yeah.

    25. AH

      ... and, uh, also knowing a bit about the culture you, you eventually, um, decided on, um, you know, it's hard to say which one is, uh, you know, the better career choice. One is definitely, uh, more life-threatening, which is the... uh, in many ways. Um, but you just said, "Okay, like, you're a Navy SEAL, you want me to be a Navy SEAL, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna hang it up."

    26. DS

      It was always in the back of your mind, like that-

    27. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    28. DS

      ... was always what you thought you were gonna do, but at 15 years old, in your mind, you can do them both. You're like, "Oh, I can be a professional skateboarder and then I can be a Navy SEAL later." You don't realize what it actually takes-

    29. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    30. DS

      ... to do it-

  11. 56:13 – 1:02:18

    BUD/S, Motivation & Mental Resilience

    1. DS

      it's totally worth it, but you gotta be there at the end.

    2. AH

      You mentioned Coleman Ruiz, who's been a guest on this podcast as a, a good friend of mine and, and yours as well and you worked with him, and, um, I'm probably gonna get this a little bit wrong, but I think once he said, uh, 'cause I think he was an instructor at BUD/S also for a short while.

    3. DS

      I think he was.

    4. AH

      Um, and I think he said, you know, "When you look at the guys that make it through BUD/S, nine times out of ten, they've had one of, at least one of the following three things: either spent some serious time in detention in high school, played a varsity sport in high school, divorced parents." And, you know, that raises a whole bunch of other questions about-

    5. DS

      Yeah.

    6. AH

      ... you know, friction and, and, um, kind of for lack of a better way to put it, like, some internal sense of like, "F you, I'm gonna push through this anyway," or just f, f you to something. So when you're, when you're going ... So let's just assume that Coleman, having, given the fact that he's not a scientist, he's a, he's a, he was a former operator so he knows. Um, do you think that there were, there were moments or many moments where it was, um, you against them? Like you and your teammates, 'cause you're, you're, you know, you're on a boat crew or whatever with, with your teammates, you're working as a team and learning how to do that. It's not just about you, it's about the group, um, and it's about you, and it's about the ex- expectation, but how many different bins of motivation do you, do you have to access to get through BUD/S? Is it ... And is f you, uh, to the instructors or whoever, to the cold water, is that part, is that a critical bin?

    7. DS

      It is and it isn't because sometimes you get caught up in the moment, you don't even think about it, you just wanna finish that evolution.

    8. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    9. DS

      So when you're doing a four-mile timed run, that was one of the big things, is you have to do a four-mile timed run. It's gotta be, I think, uh, a seven-minute mile or less and nowhere in there does it say the condition of the beach matters. So if it's high tide, low tide, you have to run it on the berm and soft sand. The time standard's the time standard.

    10. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    11. DS

      And talk to anybody. At any point in that training, you are going to hit a wall where you think your heart's gonna stop. Like, "If I take one more step, I'll die right here."

    12. AH

      'Cause your heart rate's so high.

    13. DS

      And you're like, "I can't do it." And at some point you just don't care. You're like, "I'd rather fall stone cold dead in front of all of them and die right here than I would failing or quitting."

    14. AH

      Yeah, at least you don't have to go home head hanging in shame.

    15. DS

      Exactly.

    16. AH

      Yeah.

    17. DS

      And you should just push anyway. Sometimes you'll get it- you'll be getting surf tortured by the instructors and you're just laying on that 60-degree water just miserable. And I tell this story quite a bit, we had dudes getting up and leaving, mass exits, just ... And the biggest, strongest dudes. It's broad daylight, 70 degrees on Coronado Island, the most beautiful day you've ever seen. We're laying there just jackhammering and you look over and all the West Coast SEAL teams are off to your right, and you can see SEAL Team 1 out there doing log PT for like their morning PT. And you can look at down the left and you can see the Hotel Del and this little, what I call a seven-year-old with a big pink flamingo jumping in the water, having the best-

    18. AH

      (laughs)

    19. DS

      ... time of her life, and I'm like, "It's all about your perspective."

    20. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    21. DS

      Could be a palace or a prison.

    22. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    23. DS

      However you wanna see it right now. That-

    24. AH

      That's funny.

    25. DS

      ... they're still doing it. That kid, time of their life and we're in the exact same water.

    26. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    27. DS

      Just change your mindset. This is all part of the process and if you want to wear that shiny gold thing on your chest, you must do this. Just do it. And I remember that was one of the things, like, "You're not going to break me. No matter what you say, I'll die right here in this water. I don't care." And that kinda, that mindset has really been beneficial throughout the entire pro-

    28. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    29. DS

      'Cause there's parts of, there's parts of BUD/S and parts of being in special operations where you think it's going to kill you.

    30. AH

      Mm-hmm.

  12. 1:02:18 – 1:08:41

    Navy SEALs, Iraq War & Casualties, Compartmentalization

    1. AH

      one such microenvironment.

    2. DS

      Yeah.

    3. AH

      Um, so you make it through. And then I realize there are a lot of other iterations. There's jump school and there's a bunch of other things. And, um, you go off and you, you, you start oping right away?

    4. DS

      Yeah. I get stationed at Seal Team 10 in, uh, Virginia Beach, Virginia. And we deploy in 2005. The Iraq War had just kicked off. So we, I check in in, was it early '04? And we deployed in, um... Yeah, we deployed probably seven months later and sent out. Iraq was phenomenal.

    5. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    6. DS

      Everything you ever wanted it to be. Scary. Like, you don't know anything. The IED is really bad and just... And being a really young kid, I mean, I was a Storm Trooper in Ira- Iraq and 19 years old. I mean, you forget how young you are at 19.

    7. AH

      So you're 19. You're kicking doors down.

    8. DS

      Yeah.

    9. AH

      Um, driving in Humvees, blowing stuff up.

    10. DS

      Yeah.

    11. AH

      And seeing friends get blown up.

    12. DS

      If you talk to anybody who was in Iraq, the chances of you not hitting an IED were so rare. And we never hit one. They'd hit the convoy in front of us, the one behind us. We'd get delayed at the gate for two minutes, we'd turn and boom, they'd go off in front of you. They're just not hitting... They're hitting everybody else but you. And, you know, you would tell yourself things like, "Oh, the reason they're not doing it is 'cause we look so aggressive because we have flames and-"

    13. AH

      (laughs)

    14. DS

      "... death skulls on the Humvees." It's not that, man. It's just, it's not your time. You can be the best-trained dude in the world and that IED hits you, the lights are over. And on that deployment, we lost all the guys in Operation Red Wings in Afghanistan. That was the other half of our Seal team.

    15. AH

      That wasn't an IED. That was the, the-

    16. DS

      That was a helicopter we shot down.

    17. AH

      ... the, uh, the, um, now... I don't know whether or not to call it famous or infamous, forgive me. I- I'm gonna step in it one way or the other. Uh, Lone Survivor.

    18. DS

      Mm.

    19. AH

      Amazing book-

    20. DS

      Yep.

    21. AH

      ... I should say. I really, I really enjoyed the book. The, the movie does a, I think, a pretty good job of extracting some of the, the key moments from the book. But, um, more than a movie or a book, it's a-

    22. DS

      Yeah.

    23. AH

      ... true story. Um, and that's the, the four guys that got, um, three of them got killed on the ground.

    24. DS

      Yep.

    25. AH

      And then one helicopter blown up attempting to come save them.

    26. DS

      Yep.

    27. AH

      Uh, to save the, the one guy.

    28. DS

      Save the one guy.

    29. AH

      Yeah. Marcus.

    30. DS

      And that was so hard to wrap your head around as a 19-year-old 'cause you gotta think, you know, in my mind, I'd essentially been in the community for 19 years up to that point.

Episode duration: 3:42:35

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Transcript of episode WwRc2SEo-VI

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