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Steven Pressfield on Huberman Lab: Why Fear Points to Work

For Pressfield, the scariest project is always the most important one. Resistance grows with importance; fear becomes the compass for real creative work.

Steven PressfieldguestAndrew Hubermanhost
Oct 20, 20252h 15mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 4:55

    Steven Pressfield

    1. SP

      For years when I was struggling and could never get it together, I realized that at one point that I was just thinking like an amateur, and that if I could flip a switch in my mind and think like a professional, that I c- I could overcome some of the things. A professional shows up every day. A professional stays on the job all day, or with the equivalent of, of all day. A professional, as I said this before, does not take success or failure personally. An amateur will, right? An amateur gets a bad review, bad response of this, and they just crap out, "I don't want to do this anymore." A professional plays hurt. Like, if, uh, Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, you know, if they've tweaked a hamstring, they're out there, you know? They'll die before they'll g- be taken off the court. Whereas an amateur, when he or she confronts adversity, will fold.

    2. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    3. SP

      "Oh, it's too cold out. You know, I've got a, I got a, you know, I've got the flu." Da-da, that kind of thing. An amateur worries about how they feel. Like, "Oh, I don't feel like getting out of bed this morning. I don't feel like really doing my work today." A professional doesn't care how they feel. They, they, they do it. So an amateur has amateur habits, and a professional has professional habits.

    4. AH

      (instrumental music plays) Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Steven Pressfield. Steven Pressfield is an author of numerous historical fiction and non-fiction books, including the now iconic War of Art and also the book Do the Work, which both focus on understanding the forces in our minds that barrier us from being our most focused, creative, and productive selves, and more importantly, how to overcome those barriers. Perhaps it's because Steven worked hard physical labor jobs and was in the military prior to becoming a book author and screenwriter, or perhaps it's because he published his first book at age 52, that Steven really understands how to persevere and overcome inner doubt and procrastination and turn creative blocks into important creative works. As you'll hear during today's episode, Steven doesn't talk in inspirational slogans or metaphors. So none of this get after it, or, you know, you just have to do the work. Instead, he gets very concrete about how to structure your day, how to frame your goals and your setbacks, and even how to make your creative environment more conducive to focus and effort. We also talk about how to capture your best ideas, which by the way, often occur away from the work that you're actually trying to do, and how to implement them. So if you have an idea or you're searching for an idea for a creative project to share with the world, this conversation will be immensely useful to you. It will also be extremely useful to anyone who suffers from procrastination and self-doubt, which frankly I think is all of us at some point or another. I read Steven's book, The War of Art, some years ago, and I loved it. It transformed the way that I did my science, how I approached the podcast, and many, many other aspects of life. You'll also notice that at 82 years old, Steven is incredibly sharp and fit. So we talk about his physical regimen and the important role that it plays in keeping his mind active, productive, and overcoming resistance. Steven is not only very accomplished, he's also truly wise and generous. And today, he shares a wealth of practical wisdom with us. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Steven Pressfield. Steven Pressfield, welcome.

    5. SP

      Andrew, it's a pleasure to be here. We're former neighbors, you know, so we've been talking about this for a while. It's great to be here.

    6. AH

      Yeah, I've been wanting to do this for a while. I've been reading your books for, goodness, a couple of decades now-

    7. SP

      Ah. (chuckles)

    8. AH

      ... or more. Um, first War of Art, then I started, uh, through the library, you've written a lot of books, non-fiction and fiction. It's been super impactful to me and many other people. I think everybody deals with procrastination.

    9. SP

      (laughs)

    10. AH

      You'll tell us about resistance.

    11. SP

      (laughs)

    12. AH

      Um, but there's a quote out there, they claim is you. I'm gonna assume it's you.

    13. SP

      (laughs)

    14. AH

      And, um-

    15. SP

      I'm laughing already.

    16. AH

      ... and I recommend, um, accepting that it's you even if it's not, 'cause it's a, it's a beautiful quote. (laughs)

    17. SP

      If it's a good quote, I'll take credit for it. (laughs)

    18. AH

      It's great. Um, and I'd like your reflections on it and what you intended when you said it, which is, "The more important to your soul's growth, the stronger the resistance will be."

    19. SP

      Ah.

    20. AH

      Which for me was very counterintuitive.

    21. SP

      Ah.

    22. AH

      'Cause we all imagine the creative process as one of, you know, being inspired, "Ah, this is my soul's work," and, and having a ton of motivation to get the work

  2. 4:55 – 8:45

    Ideas & Resistance, Tree & Shadow Analogy

    1. AH

      done, a ton of desire and drive. But the more important to your soul's growth, the stronger your resistance will be. Interesting.

    2. SP

      Well, that's absolutely true. And what I, what I meant by that was that, um, when we, uh, conceive an idea for something we want to do, a movie we want to make or a book we want to make, it's not like at all like what the fantasy was, "Oh, I'm really charged up, it's going to be great." What happens is waves of what I call resistance, with a capital R, start coming off that keyboard or whatever it is to try to stop us from doing it, make us procrastinate, and make us, you know, go to the beach, make us, you know, be just, you know, give in to distractions, so on and so forth. And, but the weird principle is, and this is why I always say if you want to know which one of three or four projects that you should do, you should do the one you're most afraid of. Because that fear is a form of resistance, with a capital R. And the more important a project is to your soul's evolution, not to your commercial success, but to your own evolution as an artist, the more resistance you will feel to it. So in other words, the thing that you really should be doing is gonna be the hardest and is gonna punch you in the face the hardest. Which is why-... so many artists have such a hardcore professional attitude, 'cause they have to have it to be able to kind of stand up to that resistance they're trying to push them away from, from doing their pr- their, uh, project, whatever it is.

    3. AH

      The more important to your soul's evolution, the more resistance you're going to experience, but that's the project you should be doing.

    4. SP

      Yeah. Um, here's, here's an analogy that I use sometimes, Andrew, and, and you may have heard me say this before. I think about, um, if you can imagine a tree in the middle of a sunny meadow. As soon as the tree appears, a shadow is gonna appear, and the shadow's gonna be, the tree is your dream, whatever it is, right? A book, a movie, whatever. And the shadow is the resistance you're gonna feel, and they're directly proportionate to each other. The bigger the tree, the bigger the shadow. So when you feel that shadow, you feel that massive resist, "Oh, I wanna quit. I don't wanna ... I'm not good enough to do this," et cetera, et cetera, that's a good sign, in that it says that the tree, your dream, is really big, and so you gotta do it. That's not the w- You don't wanna take a little tree. You wanna take the big tree.

    5. AH

      You have military training and background. You were a Marine, correct?

    6. SP

      Yeah. I was a reservist Marine, infantryman.

    7. AH

      Mm-hmm. Uh, how much does your training as a Marine impact this concept of resistance and your suggestions for people and your ability to push through resistance?

    8. SP

      A tremendous amount. You know, I think, you know, when I was going through, uh, boot camp and, you know, infantry training and stuff like that, I hated it, and I thought, "I just c- can't wait 'til I get out of this and just, just be a regular civilian again." But as I've grown and lived through the, the artist life of, you know, writing, you know, being in a room with your own demons for two or three years at a time, I've learned that kind of the virtues that you learn in the military, um, are the same virtues that you have to call upon to live that war of art, the war inside your head. You know, the virtues of, uh, of stubbornness, of, uh, the willing embracing of adversity, of patience, of selflessness, of courage, because it's about fear. And so yeah, it, it's influenced me tremendously, and I found, sort of to my amazement, as I started writing fiction,

  3. 8:45 – 10:14

    Military, Pushing Through Resistance, War of Art

    1. SP

      that I was drawn to themes of war, even though I've never actually been in a war. But the, it's the, it's the inner war that interests me, the metaphor of war. So yeah, a lot. It meant a lot.

    2. AH

      Do you think the physical training that you took part in when you were in the Marines has impacted, A, your current physical regimen? By the way, everybody, Steven is 82 years old. Uh, I see him at the gym.

    3. SP

      (laughs)

    4. AH

      Um, he's there every morning very early. What time do you get there?

    5. SP

      I get there at quarter to 5:00.

    6. AH

      Quarter to 5:00 AM, um, which is why I see him from time to time-

    7. SP

      (laughs)

    8. AH

      ... 'cause I'm not there at quarter to 5:00.

    9. SP

      You're coming in. I'm going home. Yeah. (laughs)

    10. AH

      Yeah, a- and, and I sometimes train there and elsewhere, but you are very consistent. You train very early. So clearly, um, you're in great physical and mental shape. It's awesome to see. You are, you know, with all the discussion about longevity, you are living proof. Uh, so what, I am curious about your physical regimen and the extent to which your physical regimen impacts your ability to lean into and against resistance to do your creative work at the keyboard or with pen and paper.

    11. SP

      Ah, that's a great question. Um, going to the gym early, first thing for me, is, um, a rehearsal for when I get home and I go sit at the keyboard and I actually have to face the resistance of working that day, right? So to me, the gym is about something that I don't

  4. 10:14 – 16:11

    Physical Training, Tools: Capturing Ideas, Little Successes

    1. SP

      wanna do. I hate to get up that early in the morning and get there. It's something that is gonna hurt, right? We all know about that. And it's something that I'm afraid of, because as you know, there are all kinds of ways you can hurt yourself and, and embarrass yourself and so on and so forth. But having done that in the morning, so it's for m- Uh, I've got like, um ... I think we have a mutual friend in Randy Wallace, right? Do we have-

    2. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    3. SP

      Yeah. Randy has this thing, Randall Wallace, who wrote Braveheart and as secretary directed that and many others. He has a thing in the morning that he calls little successes, and what he's trying to do to build momentum for when he's actually gonna sit down and write is, you know, achieve something that he can say, "Okay, I did something good here, and then I d-" You know? So going to the gym for me is that. It's not so much about the physical aspect of it. It's the, uh, the rehearsal for kind of facing like it's ... So I feel like when I finish at the gym, nothing I'm gonna do for the rest of the day is gonna be as hard as what I already did. So, you know, there we go. The, the ways are greased and I can go forward. That's the theory anyway.

    4. AH

      So when you wake up in the morning, you're not looking forward to working out?

    5. SP

      Fuck, no. I mean, we can s- Can we say that here already?

    6. AH

      Sure. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

    7. SP

      Yeah, absolutely not. It's a drag. I hate to go, you know?

    8. AH

      You prefer to stay in bed?

    9. SP

      Absolutely, and I wish I could stay in bed, you know, on, and, but, uh, on the days I do stay in bed, Sunday, I've, I don't feel so good about myself, you know? I wish I had gone to the gym. I mean, you must feel the same way, Andrew, about whatever you do, being an old skateboarder and, you know, a fitness guy your whole life. What does it, how does it fit in with your regimen?

    10. AH

      Well, the problem for me is that I love working out.

    11. SP

      Oh, you do? Wow.

    12. AH

      So ... I do, and I always have. Um, I have noticed in the last maybe two, three years that occasionally I have to push myself a little bit more.

    13. SP

      (laughs)

    14. AH

      But I, I loathe rest days-

    15. SP

      Ah. Ah.

    16. AH

      ... but they are important. You know, I do believe in taking one full day off per week letting my body recover.

    17. SP

      Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

    18. AH

      Um, but that's the problem is I really enjoy working out-

    19. SP

      Ah.

    20. AH

      ... and so by the time I'm done working out, and then I shower up and I...... eat, and I'm sitting down to do some work, like, oh, now comes the really hard workout.

    21. SP

      (laughs)

    22. AH

      Um, but I noticed that I learn things during those workouts, provided that I don't have my phone with me.

    23. SP

      Ah.

    24. AH

      I might listen to music on my phone, sometimes a podcast or an audiobook, but I do my very best not to be on social media-

    25. SP

      Ah.

    26. AH

      ... or text while, during those workouts, because during those workouts, something always comes to mind that I find useful-

    27. SP

      Ah.

    28. AH

      ... for elsewhere in life, and it usually pops up during a rest period between sets. You know, I think exercise takes our brain and body into these st- unfamiliar states.

    29. SP

      Yeah.

    30. AH

      And I think that our unconscious mind geysers stuff up-

  5. 16:11 – 18:36

    Sponsors: Helix Sleep & BetterHelp

    1. AH

      is giving up to 20% off all mattress orders. Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to get up to 20% off. Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp. BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online. I've been doing weekly therapy for well over 30 years, and I've found it to be an extremely important component to my overall health. There are essentially three things that great therapy provides. First of all, it provides a good rapport with somebody that you can trust and discuss issues with. Second of all, great therapy provides support in the form of emotional support or directed guidance with practical issues in your life. And third, expert therapy can provide useful insights, insights that can allow you to make changes to improve your life, not just your emotional life and your relationship life, but also your professional life. With BetterHelp, they make it very easy to find an expert therapist who can help provide the benefits that come through effective therapy, and it's carried out entirely online, so it's extremely convenient. No driving to the therapist's office, no looking for parking, et cetera. If you would like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month. Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman. Tell me more about this, uh, the, the, from the, the goddess, or the gods, or the muse, you know, th-

    2. SP

      Uh-

    3. AH

      ... from outside us, or from God.

    4. SP

      Ah. Well, you know, if you, um, go back to the ancient Greeks, right? Every, um, The Iliad, or The Odyssey, or any of those other great works always start with an invocation of the muse, right? Homer writes, you know, "Goddess, you know, tell the story," you know? And basically, the artist is stepping or taking his ego out of the picture and saying, "I'm not the one that's gonna tell you the story about ancient Troy. The goddess will tell through me." So they're sort of asking, you know, help me, show me, you know, uh, that kind of thing. And, um, I had a mentor, you know, Rob, we were talking about that earlier, a guy named Paul Rink. He's like, can I get into the weeds on this thing, Andrew?

    5. AH

      Please. Please.

    6. SP

      And, um, he sort of introduced me to this concept. This was like the first time I tried to write a book. I was like 27 or something like that. And I, well, I had actually tried and failed before, but it was the first time I ever finished one, and I used to have breakfast every morning. This was in Carmel Valley, not so far from where you grew up, and, uh, in, with

  6. 18:36 – 23:19

    Ideas, Invocation of the Muse, Goddess

    1. SP

      my friend Paul Rink, who's a, who was a, maybe 30 years older than me. He was an established writer. He-... knew John Steinbeck, knew Henry Miller from Big Sur, and he told me about the muses, the Greek goddesses, the nine sisters whose job it was to inspire artists, right? The classic image of the muse is Beethoven at the piano and a, kind of a shadowy female figure is kind of whispering in his ear. You know, bringing him da-da-da-dum, right? And so he wrote out for me, my friend Paul, the invocation of the muse from... He typed it out on his Remington manual typewriter, the invocation of the muse from the Odyssey, from Homer's Odyssey, translation by T.E. Lawrence, and I've kept that. It burned up in the fire, lost it in the fire, but I've kept that for, like, 50 years and every morning before I sit down to work, I say that prayer, you know, out loud and in full earnest. You know, "Goddess, help me." And, um, I'm absolutely a believer in that, you know, that, that ideas come from another place and it's our job... And I don't think it's the subconscious. It's our job to open the pipeline and, and get out of the way.

    2. AH

      I love it. I am... I'm totally open to the idea that it's not the unconscious mind or the subconscious, whatever people wanna call it. Um, I'm sad to hear that this, uh, um, this write-up of invocation of the muse burned. We should probably just mention that we used to be neighbors.

    3. SP

      Yeah.

    4. AH

      Um, your home burned in the fires, sadly. Uh, the home that I lived in, um, it was not my home, I was renting it, also burned in the fires. Um, so my guess is that at some point during today's conversation, we'll talk about loss of objects-

    5. SP

      Uh-huh, yeah.

    6. AH

      ... and items, but sounds like this one was pretty precious.

    7. SP

      Yeah, it was a sad thing to lose that.

    8. AH

      Yeah.

    9. SP

      You know? But, you know, it's, it's in my head.

    10. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    11. SP

      You know? So...

    12. AH

      How long is it?

    13. SP

      Um, it was on one page.

    14. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    15. SP

      Double-spaced.

    16. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    17. SP

      I would say it takes, to recite it takes maybe 90 seconds.

    18. AH

      Do you have any, uh, interest or desire in calling it up now or a portion of it?

    19. SP

      Uh, I'll, I'll call up just the opening of it because the middle part i- is Homer sort of describing the whole story of the Odyssey.

    20. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    21. SP

      But it starts like this. It goes, "Oh, divine poesy, goddess, daughter of Zeus, sustain for me this song of the various minded man," meaning Odysseus, and then he kinda goes on to talk about da-da-da-da. And at the end it says, um, "Make this tale live for us in all its many bearings, oh muse," which I think is a great... You know, make it live, make it come alive in all its many bearings. And so, you know, that's, uh... Thanks to my, my friend Paul, that's been a thing that's been with me for, you know, 40 years.

    22. AH

      I love it. Well, we'll provide a link to the full-

    23. SP

      Uh-huh.

    24. AH

      ... uh, to the full script.

    25. SP

      It's in The War of Art, actually. I, I-

    26. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    27. SP

      ... wrote this out in the, in The War of Art.

    28. AH

      Yeah.

    29. SP

      I think it's on page 114 or 115.

    30. AH

      Yeah, and if anyone hasn't read War of Art, it's an absolute must-read. I've read it many times. It's... I have it in audiobook form, uh, hard copy form. It is awesome. It is just awesome. So when you sit down to write, after you've, you've recited this, um, how many times in the first 10 minutes do you think your mind flits to something else? I mean, you're now a pro. Like, you've written many books and you know what to, uh, what is noise and you know what is signal and you know if you really need to go to the bathroom or if you don't.

  7. 23:19 – 28:21

    Writing, Focus, Inner Critic, Perfectionism, Tool: Think in Multiple Drafts

    1. SP

      on it. Uh, so yeah, I don't, I don't have those thoughts at all.

    2. AH

      H- how long do you write in that first about?

    3. SP

      Um-

    4. AH

      Before you make-

    5. SP

      Maybe an hour.

    6. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    7. SP

      Uh, and then I'll take a, a little bit of a break.

    8. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    9. SP

      Um, I love to do laundry. That's my big thing, you know. I'll go, I'll change the... I'll put in the laundry at the start, you know, and it'll be... The lo- the load will be done, then I can put it into the dryer, I take a little break and then I come back and start again for, for another hour.

    10. AH

      Do you enjoy it or you enjoy clean laundry, or both? I mean, which-

    11. SP

      I just... I enjoy the, sort of the ritual of it and the craziness of it, you know?

    12. AH

      Oh, man. Not me, not one bit.

    13. SP

      Ah.

    14. AH

      The only thing I enjoy about doing laundry is clearing the lint trap.

    15. SP

      (laughs)

    16. AH

      There's something very satisfying about that.

    17. SP

      That's the part I hate. I don't wanna do that at all, but... (laughs)

    18. AH

      Interesting. All right. Well, we're not considering, but we'd make good roommates. (laughs)

    19. SP

      Yeah. (laughs)

    20. AH

      Um, interesting. So for an hour, you're locked in and you're just typing away. How often does your inner critic pop up nowadays versus at the beginning? Meaning the, "I don't know if this is going the right direction." Um, I've heard before that you're just supposed to create and then edit later. What's your process there?

    21. SP

      Uh, it almost never comes up, the inner critic. Again, it used to. You know, it used to all the time. It was a terrible struggle I had for years.

    22. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    23. SP

      You know, you sit down and you think, "Well, does Hemingway... Would Hemingway write this sentence?" You know, right? Or, or, you know, "What will The New York Times think when I write..." You know? But eventually, over time, you learn you just can't deal with that bullshit.

    24. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    25. SP

      You know, it drives you insane.

    26. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    27. SP

      You know, so, so no, I don't, I don't let that inner critic come in, you know, and I'm definitely a believer, um...... at the end of the day, I never read what I wrote.

    28. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    29. SP

      And I never look back on it the next day. Um, I believe in multiple dra- uh, 'cause somebody taught me this one time, that, uh, think in multiple drafts. Um, this was Jack Epps, the writer of, the original writer of Top Gun. Um, I was working for him on a, on a movie project, and he said, he said, "Always think in multiple drafts." And, uh, and you can only fix so much in one draft. You can only fix one thing (laughs) in one draft. So, I usually will think of, f- and I start a book maybe 13, 14, 15 drafts. The last seven or eight will be really s- small, you know, really slight changes. But I won't look back on the day's work. So, I figure on the next draft, then I'll, then I'll read it fresh, and it'll look a million times cl- a much more clear sense, is this any good? 'Cause if you do it when it's too fresh, you start to drive yourself crazy. You start to, you know, perfectionism, another form of resistance comes in. So yeah, that's, that's my process. I know a lot of other people don't do it that way. But that's the way I do it. I never... When the, when the day is done, the o- the bell rings, the office is closed. That's it. I turn off my mind and just let, let the muse take care of it overnight. And I don't, I d- try not to worry about it at all. All I ask myself... I know I'm getting into the weeds here really, Andrew.

    30. AH

      This is, uh, no, it's very important that you get into the weeds 'cause I think, um, you've offered many times through books and, uh, other podcasts, uh, the, the contour and, and a lot of depth. But I think the more detail, the better. Uh, because-

  8. 28:21 – 32:28

    Writing Session; Workout Analogy & Concentration

    1. SP

      Yeah.

    2. AH

      Yeah. The analogy to, uh, working out, uh, is a great one. Um, years ago, when I started resistance training, I learned from Mike Mentzer, I don't know if you ever overlapped with Mike at Gold's.

    3. SP

      No.

    4. AH

      He, he died some years ago.

    5. SP

      But just to interrupt for a second.

    6. AH

      Yeah.

    7. SP

      They call it resistance training.

    8. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    9. SP

      Which is exactly what we're-

    10. AH

      Oh, yeah.

    11. SP

      ... talking about for art. Yeah.

    12. AH

      Yeah.

    13. SP

      So, but please continue.

    14. AH

      Yeah, excellent point. No, uh, please. Um, you know, there, there are a lot of theories out there about resistance training and how best to get muscles to grow and to get stronger, et cetera. And one extreme is, you know, you warm up and then you do one set to absolute failure, maybe a second set you push through. That's kind of the Mentzer high-intensity thing. At the other extreme is, is volume, just lots and lots and lots of sets.

    15. SP

      Uh-huh.

    16. AH

      And there has been debate about this endlessly, and it has to do with all sorts of factors.

    17. SP

      Uh-huh.

    18. AH

      But the literature is now coming to a place where it's pretty clear that after warming up, the first one or two sets that you do are really the most valuable of a given exercise.

    19. SP

      Oh. Oh, I didn't know that.

    20. AH

      And, and almost certainly you need more than one set, um, overall. You certainly do. But that it's really the intensity that you bring. But here's the, the point that is strongly analogous to what you're talking about when you say you used to be able to write for four hours a day. Now, you do two, and you tell yourself that you accomplished the same amount in those two. That's almost certainly true based on what we understand about neuroscience and believe it or not-

    21. SP

      Oh, I'm glad to hear that. (laughs)

    22. AH

      ... resistance training in the gym.

    23. SP

      Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

    24. AH

      And the, the argument is that as you resistance train or write or play volleyball or do any activity, you develop a better ability to recruit your nervous system-

    25. SP

      Ah.

    26. AH

      ... to do the necessary work.

    27. SP

      Ah.

    28. AH

      You said you didn't used to be able to just sit down and focus for an hour with minimal interruption in your mind. Now, you can. You learned that. The more intensity that we can bring to something, the more focus we can bring to something, the more taxing it is.

    29. SP

      Hmm. Hmm.

    30. AH

      Y- y- like, if I do one set, uh, in the gym-

  9. 32:28 – 35:31

    Aspiring Writers & Focused Hours; Work Session Timing; Phones

    1. SP

      f- a full tilt version.

    2. AH

      Excellent point. How important do you think it is for you to start that writing session at more or less the same time each day? You're not saying two hours in the morning or two hours in the evening, two hours in the morning or t- w- hour in the morning, hour in the afternoon. It sounds like it's very regimented.

    3. SP

      It, it is. I think it's really important. And when life was more predictable for me, I would always do it. But, like, since the fires and other things like that, um, sometimes I have to shift timeframes around and be ready to do that, you know. Um, I have a good friend, Jack Carr, the thriller writer who did The Terminal List and, and, uh, you know, he's a, he's a master of writing in airplanes and writing at Starbucks 'cause he's always traveling and doing all kinds of stuff and just finding the time. God bless him. I don't know how he does it, you know, to... and, and he's incredibly productive. Um, I, I don't, I don't know if I could do that. I... maybe m- I will shift from writing from 11:00 to 1:00 to writing from 1:00 to 3:00, but that's about the, the (laughs) the most, you know, uh, variance I can put into it.

    4. AH

      Do you have your phone in the room when you write? And is the internet engaged on your computer when you write?

    5. SP

      Not at, not at all, you know. No.

    6. AH

      Both of those-

    7. SP

      I mean, my phone-

    8. AH

      Yep.

    9. SP

      ... is there maybe to dictate a note or something like that. But otherwise, no, I d- you know, absolutely not. And, and, uh, yeah, I can't even imagine that.

    10. AH

      Music?

    11. SP

      No. No music. No.

    12. AH

      Just the sound of your own breathing?

    13. SP

      Yeah. Yeah.

    14. AH

      Yeah. What's that-

    15. SP

      'Cause you're in your own head, right?

    16. AH

      Yeah.

    17. SP

      You're in th- that universe, you know.

    18. AH

      Mm-hmm. This is what I find so odd about writing, is you're in your head. It's your voice in your head, but you're in a conversation with the potential audience. W- what is the actual dialogue? Are you thinking... this gets a little philosophical, but at the end of the day, it's very concrete. Are you thinking about a conversation with the audience, or are you just translating thoughts into words and the audience doesn't exist yet?

    19. SP

      Uh, I'm very aware of, of the reader in the sense of, um... let's say it's a scene that I'm, that I'm writing, and I know certain things have to happen in this scene. Character A has to do something, character B, da-da-da-da. And so I'm r- I'm trying to put that down, but I'm thinking, "Is the reader understanding? What... have I got this in the right order for, for them, you know? Am I, am I boring them? Is it... did I, did I say that, you know, two pages ago and now I'm repeating myself?" So I'm... but I'm not having a conversation. I'm just trying to, to make it as, as easy and as interesting and as fun as I can for the, for the reader.

  10. 35:31 – 39:45

    Inner Voice; Storytelling, Advertising

    1. SP

      And, and always m- trying to make sure that I'm, I'm leading, I'm leading them. I'm seducing them. I'm trying to reel them in, you know, all, you know, and not bore them, you know. By the end of, of this chapter or scene, I want the reader to be thinking, "Oh, I can't wait to turn the page and see what happens next."

    2. AH

      Growing up, were you a storyteller among your friends?

    3. SP

      No. I never even thought about it as a kid.

    4. AH

      Like, you didn't... hanging out with friends, you wouldn't tell a story about what had happened three days ago?

    5. SP

      No. I mean, just like anybody else would. But no, I was never, like, a, you know, a storyteller or anything. I was not a kid that wanted to be a writer. I never thought about it at all.

    6. AH

      Hm. So you just kind of tripped and fell into all the...

    7. SP

      (laughs) I mean, my first job-

    8. AH

      Oh.

    9. SP

      ... was in advertising in New York City out of, right out of college. And I-

    10. AH

      This is like the Mad Men thing.

    11. SP

      Yeah.

    12. AH

      Yeah.

    13. SP

      Yeah. But I guess at the time I thought, "Oh, I'd love to write a commercial that people said, uh, 'Oh, that was great. It was so funny. I loved that thing.'" So that sort of, um, got me kind of a little bit started into the idea of storytelling. And then I had a boss, his name was Ed Hannibal, and he wrote a book kind of at home, and it became a hit, you know. (laughs) And, uh, it was called Chocolate Days, Popsicle Weeks, and he quit to become, like, a novelist. And so I thought, "Well, shit. Why don't I do that?" You know. So that was what sort of started me into it, you know, being completely naive and totally stupid, you know, and having no idea of what I was doing.

    14. AH

      That's wild. So n- I- I imagined you as, like, the kid who was always coming in telling stories-

    15. SP

      No, not at all.

    16. AH

      ... and you were writing in the background.Uh, advertising is pretty interesting though because it, it's the same process. You have to get into the mind of the audience, you have a story to tell, and I guess with advertising the goal is a purchase and with writing the idea is they, they, uh, buy into the next page.

    17. SP

      Yeah.

    18. AH

      Something like that?

    19. SP

      Yeah, yeah. Very similar in that sense, you know.

    20. AH

      Mm-hmm. What, any ads that you recall particularly enjoying working?

    21. SP

      No, I was terrible. I was never any good at it.

    22. AH

      (laughs)

    23. SP

      No, I never made any money at it. I was never successful at all. Um, but I met a lot of nice people and I learned a lot of stuff in that, you know.

    24. AH

      You said that was in New York City?

    25. SP

      It was in New York City. Um, in fact if I can, if I can hype one of my books, it's a small follow-up to The War of Art called Nobody Wants to Read Your Shit. And it kind of, a lot of it is about what you learn in advertising, because nobody wants to read your ads or listen to your, uh, commercials or anything like that. And so one thing you learn in that business is to make it so good or so interesting, so intriguing that people will overcome their hatred of having to listen to your stupid Preparation H commercial. Um, so that was, uh, anyway, that was, that was what, that was what got me started. But I was never a storyteller as a kid, no.

    26. AH

      I'd like to go back to the quote that we started with. "The more important to your soul's growth, the stronger the resistance will be." I think many people will hear that, including myself, and will think, "Okay, what is, what is my soul's growth? Where does it wanna go?" You know, I think when we hear the word soul and growth, particularly when it's about us, we think, like, there's gonna be this big sign written on the heavens about (laughs) what we're supposed to do and we're gonna feel compelled to do it. You're saying the opposite, that the thing that we need to do most sometimes is hidden from us. The muse perhaps can reveal that. And it's through the act of writing without knowing what the work even is that sometimes we arrive there. So for people that don't have a crystallized idea yet and they want to explore their creative sense, they might want to do it through writing, they might want to do it through pottery, they might wanna do it through music, they might wanna do it through making movies, any number of things. What's the translation from the thing you need most is the thing you're resisting most to actually getting into the process of evolving that thing out of us?

    27. SP

      Hm.

    28. AH

      It's like, it sounds like an extrusion

  11. 39:45 – 48:10

    Soul & Growth, Creativity, Your Calling & Voices of Resistance, Suppression

    1. AH

      process, like you're trying to like-

    2. SP

      It's a great question.

    3. AH

      ... push, push semi-solid concrete through a filter. But I wanna know what the filter is.

    4. SP

      Um, I mean, I know that young people today, there's a tremendous amount of pressure on people to find their passion, you know, and follow their passion, so on and so forth. And I, and I know for, for me I would, as a young person I would go, "What the fuck is that? I don't know what, what it is that I wanna do." You know? Um, "I'm lost. I'm s- just, you know, struggling." But I do think that we are all born with some sort of a, of a, at least one, a kind of, a calling of some kind. And it may not be the arts, you know, it may be helping other people through some kind of a nonprofit or something. Or like what you're doing, Andrew, you know, where you're bringing neuroscience and, and the scientific, the, you know, to personal development and so on and so forth. Um, I think we do all have some sort of, some sort of calling. And like, we, we know it. Like if, if we could somehow put somebody in here and say, "I'll give you three seconds, tell me what you should be supposed to be doing." It will pop into somebody's head, you know, they'll go, "Oh, you know, I knew, I know I've always wanted to do, to be a motorcycle whatever." You know? So but then that sort of whisper urge to do this thing is immediately countered by this force of resistance, you know? 'Cause it's trying to stop us, it's the devil. It's trying to stop us from being our true selves and becoming self-realized, self-actualized or whatever. So resistance will immediately say to us, like if you were to say, "Oh, I wanna have a podcast and I wanna talk about, you know, science, da da da da," immediately resistance would say, "Well who are you, Andrew, to do this thing? I mean, you're a professor, you know, at Stanford. You know, we, we don't have any experience doing this. Not to mention it's been done a million times by other people, they've done it 1,000 times better than you. Nobody's gonna give a shit. You're gonna put this out there, you're gonna embarrass yourself. You had a certain level of prestige at Stanford, now you're an idiot." You know, you did, you might, it's gonna be that voice, right?

    5. AH

      Yeah, some people actually said, "Stanford's not gonna like it. Why would you do this? You're tenured at Stanford. What, what are you doing? You're g- you've, you're funded, your lab's publishing well." One of those people was my father-

    6. SP

      (laughs)

    7. AH

      ... um, who's also a scientist. Um, my process of pushing back on that-

    8. SP

      I rest my case.

    9. AH

      Yeah.

    10. SP

      And t- the true part here, the really kind of interesting part is a lot of times those voices will be the voices closest to us. Our spouse, our father, you know? Because, well, I can get into that. I'll get into that in a, if we, if we wanna continue. But in any event, um, so that voice of resistance will come up. In addition, resistance will try to distract us, you know? It'll try to make us procrastinate. It'll try to make us yield to perfectionism where we d- we noodle over one sentence, you know, for three days, you know? Or we, or fear all of the other things will stop us. So many people live their entire lives and never do, and never enact their real calling, you know? Um, but we were talking about the more important to the growth of your soul, that was what the, we started with this, right? So that calling, whatever it is, to be a writer, a filmmaker, uh, wha- whatever it is, if we don't do that in our life, we, we, that energy...... doesn't go away. It becomes... it goes into a more malignant channel, right?

    11. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    12. SP

      And it shows itself in maybe, uh, an addiction, alcoholism, uh, cruelty to others, abuse of others, abuse of ourselves, porn, you name it. Any of the sort of vices that people have, uh, because that original creative divine energy that really wants to be the Odyssey or something like that, if we yield to our own resistance and don't evolve that, then bad things happen. On the other hand, if we do follow that, we kind of open ourselves up to, you know, to becoming who we, who we really are. And, you know, a lot of people in the podcasting and the s- and the, uh, human development or whatever they call it, personal development world, they sort of promise like some sort of nirvana is gonna happen if you do X, Y, Z. But what I'm, (laughs) what I'm promising is a fuck of a lot of hard work that's probably never gonna be rewarded, but you'll be on the track that, you know, your soul was meant to be on. And God bless you, you can't ask for any more than that.

    13. AH

      And sometimes it works out spectacular levels of whatever, income, fame, whatever it is that people think they might want, but that's not really the thing to chase.

    14. SP

      There you go.

    15. AH

      We'll talk about that.

    16. SP

      Yeah, we'll talk about that. Yeah.

    17. AH

      So sometimes it's the lottery of-

    18. SP

      Yeah.

    19. AH

      ... of-

    20. SP

      Sometimes.

    21. AH

      ... of life.

    22. SP

      Yeah.

    23. AH

      Sometimes. But that absolutely should not be the thing that people are chasing.

    24. SP

      Yeah.

    25. AH

      Yeah. I, um, I only know my own experience and I couldn't help but reflect a little bit on, you know, when I was deciding to do the podcast and I did get some voices back, like, "Hey, like maybe that's..." You know, uh, "What are you doing?" I- I, um, I'm not clinically diagnosed with Tourette's or anything like that, but I felt, um, at that point that I had a certain amount of knowledge in me, uh, based on 25 years of studying and research in neuroscience and related fields. And I felt like if I didn't let it out, I was going to explode.

    26. SP

      Ah, huh, huh.

    27. AH

      And so Rob, my producer, and my, my bulldog, Costello-

    28. SP

      Ah-ha.

    29. AH

      ... and I went into a small closet in Topanga and set up some cameras and I exploded onto the-

    30. SP

      Ah-ha.

  12. 48:10 – 51:04

    Loved Ones: Projection, Resistance & Sabotage

    1. SP

      deliberately malicious a lot of times, but people will then try to undermine you and say... and, and under the guise of, uh, "We're only looking out for you. We don't want your children to be starving and in the street," they will try to, try to undermine you and stop you from doing it and make fun of you or ridicule you. Like, um, the filmmaker David O. Russell, I don't know if you know who I'm talking about. He did the, The Fighter with Mark Wahlberg.

    2. AH

      I love that movie.

    3. SP

      He did Silver Linings Playbook, um, you know, with Jennifer Lawrence and, uh, Bradley Cooper. And, um-

    4. AH

      I did not see that one, but I did see The Fighter.

    5. SP

      ... and Joy about the lady who invented the Miracle Mop with, wh- which was Jennifer Lawrence. And all of these stories are about sabotage by the people closest to you.

    6. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    7. SP

      Partic- your family. Partic- like in The Fighter, Mark Wahlberg is the... is this boxer, right? And he's got seven sisters and he also has an older brother and they're like... and his mom is his manager and she's like booking him fights where he's outweighed by 20 pounds and he gets massacred, you know?

    8. AH

      True story of Micky Ward.

    9. SP

      Yeah.

    10. AH

      Right. Yeah.

    11. SP

      And the story is, you know, he finally meets a girl who's like really supportive of him. But anyway, it's a real theme that the people closest to us will, will try to... They don't want us...They're happy the way, you know, we like you Andrew the way you are. You know? Our son, we know he's working at Stanford. He's doing his thing. We don't want to see him, it may be unconscious, I'm not knocking your dad, we don't want to see him suddenly burst out of the, uh, the cocoon and become a butterfly and wing away from us, you know? So they like you the way they are, you know? The way you are.

    12. AH

      We've known for a long time that there are things we can do to improve our sleep, and that includes things that we can take. Things like magnesium threonate, theanine, chamomile extract, and glycine along with lesser-known things like saffron and valerian root. These are all clinically supported ingredients that can help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up feeling more refreshed. I'm excited to share that our longtime sponsor AG1 just created a new product called AGZ, a nightly drink designed to help you get better sleep and have you wake up feeling super refreshed. Over the past few years, I've worked with the team at AG1 to help create this new AGZ formula. It has the best sleep-supporting compounds in exactly the right ratios in one easy-to-drink mix. This removes all the complexity of trying to forage the vast landscape of supplements focused on sleep and figuring out the right dosages and which ones to take for you. AGZ is, to my knowledge, the most comprehensive sleep supplement on the market. I take it 30 to 60 minutes before sleep, it's delicious by the way, and it dramatically increases both the quality and the depth of my sleep. I know that both from my subjective experience of my sleep and because I track my sleep. I'm excited for everyone to try this new AGZ formulation and to enjoy the benefits of better sleep. AGZ is available in chocolate, chocolate mint, and mixed berry flavors, and as I mentioned before, they're all extremely

  13. 51:04 – 53:52

    Sponsors: AGZ by AG1 & Rorra

    1. AH

      delicious. My favorite of the three has to be, I think, chocolate mint, but I really like them all. If you would like to try AGZ go to drinkagz.com/huberman to get a special offer. Again, that's drinkagz.com/huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by RORA. RORA makes what I believe are the best water filters on the market. It's an unfortunate reality, but tap water often contains contaminants that negatively impact our health. In fact, a 2020 study by the Environmental Working Group estimated that more than 200 million Americans are exposed to PFAS chemicals, also known as forever chemicals, through drinking of tap water. These forever chemicals are linked to serious health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems. The Environmental Working Group has also shown that over 122 million Americans drink tap water with high levels of chemicals known to cause cancer. It's for all these reasons that I'm thrilled to have RORA as a sponsor of this podcast. I've been using the RORA countertop system for almost a year now. RORA's filtration technology removes harmful substances including endocrine disruptors and disinfection byproducts while preserving beneficial minerals like magnesium and calcium. It requires no installation or plumbing, it's built from medical-grade stainless steel, and its sleek design fits beautifully on your countertop. In fact, I consider it a welcome addition to my kitchen. It looks great, and the water is delicious. If you'd like to try RORA, you can go to rora.com/huberman and get an exclusive discount. Again, that's RORA, R-O-R-R-A, .com/huberman. We've had several clinical psychologists on the podcast, and a resounding theme from them has been that it is astounding and yet consistent that people will remain in a not-so-great place that they understand and is predictable in exchange for what they could do, stepping into some new life.

    2. SP

      Mm.

    3. AH

      Even getting over their, their anger about something.

    4. SP

      Mm.

    5. AH

      In fact I would, uh, I was thinking, uh, throughout today's conversation, I couldn't help but think that perhaps the two most dangerous things to the creative process, to really doing the important work, are the many, many things that exist in the world now that basically sell us the opportunity, for free, to be angry or to numb out.

    6. SP

      Mm. Mm.

    7. AH

      I mean, I, uh, again, if people want to drink a little bit, I'm not gonna disparage that. I've done an episode on alcohol.

    8. SP

      Ah.

    9. AH

      It's not good for you, but y- uh, some people can have a couple drinks in a week or whatever, okay, uh, not judging there. But, but things like alcohol, like certain forms of social media, and I say certain forms because I do think social media can be informative and educational in the right context and the right amount, um,

  14. 53:52 – 59:00

    Angry & Numbing Out, Resistance, Internet; Following Your Calling

    1. AH

      certain forms of media more generally, the news, right? Um, any number of highly processed, highly palatable foods, uh, which are not delicious-

    2. SP

      Mm.

    3. AH

      ... they, but they allow us to kind of numb out, numb out our senses-

    4. SP

      Mm-hmm.

    5. AH

      ... and just kind of mindlessly eat, um, and on and on. I feel like anger and numbing out are how the world is trying to pull us away.

    6. SP

      Mm.

    7. AH

      A- and someone gets paid for that. We think we get it for free, but they get paid for that-

    8. SP

      Yeah.

    9. AH

      ... very well. We give our time, our soul, according to what you're saying.

    10. SP

      Yeah.

    11. AH

      And then more close to us, within our inner circle, people that genuinely care about us are, from what you're saying, kind of in their own psychological entanglements and they really care, they want us safe, they want to keep us where they know they can find us, and (laughs) as a consequence it's really tough to even get to the process of resistance at this point. It's all around us.

    12. SP

      Yeah.

    13. AH

      It's all around us. It's like-

    14. SP

      You hit the nail on a lot of heads there, you do, yeah.

    15. AH

      So I feel like, uh, do you think the world is set up now in ways that it's more difficult to get to that chair and to meet the inner resistance, that's a, I sh- I phrased it poorly before. There's resistance all around us, there's, uh, in the things that are being sold to us, quote-unquote for free.

    16. SP

      Mm.

    17. AH

      The cost is immense.

    18. SP

      Mm.

    19. AH

      It's true you're not putting a coin in a, in a slot and pulling a lever, but it's your time, it's your soul-

    20. SP

      Yeah.

    21. AH

      ... it's your essence, it's your life.

    22. SP

      Yeah.

    23. AH

      And then it's close to us with family members and friends and significant others sometimes, um, dogs are immune from this-

    24. SP

      Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

    25. AH

      ... cats are immune. They want us to do the real work-

    26. SP

      Uh-huh.

    27. AH

      ... 'cause we'll be, they'll be right next to us.

    28. SP

      Uh-huh.

    29. AH

      ... and then with all that, then we sit down and then the resistance comes up from right up in the middle.

    30. SP

      Yeah. Yeah.

  15. 59:00 – 1:06:46

    Mentors: Lessons on Focus & Quitting

    1. AH

      that we received. People were like, "Pull up your pants." You know, "Why are your pants so-"

    2. SP

      Uh-huh.

    3. AH

      By, uh, by the athletes, by the cool, by the water polo athletes-

    4. SP

      Uh-huh.

    5. AH

      ... the, the jocks, the, the everything. But not just at school, but elsewhere. Leave for the summer, come back, and over that summer s- the, someone in the world of rock and roll and in hip hop had kind of, um, picked this up from skateboarding culture, and baggy pants and shorts hit the mainstream.

    6. SP

      Oh, I never knew that.

    7. AH

      And the next year, everyone was into that.

    8. SP

      Ah.

    9. AH

      And that's when the, the bell went off. I was like, "They don't actually know what they like." It's, this is just the, the essence of peer pressure.

    10. SP

      Ah.

    11. AH

      They have no concept of what they actually like. And I think that was a big one for me. I was like, uh, well, first of all, I thought, "Well, they're hypocrites."

    12. SP

      Uh-huh.

    13. AH

      Then I thought, "They're idiots." And then I realized they're, but they're none of those things. It's that for most people, what they like is sold to them.

    14. SP

      Mm-hmm.

    15. AH

      It's... And they're tracking someone else. And so, throughout my life, I've had mentors, um, that didn't know me. I would, I literally have a list of different names, some pe- some of these people alive, some of them dead. Amazingly, some of them are now my close friends.

    16. SP

      Mm-hmm.

    17. AH

      Um, I embarrass them all the time by telling them that they're on this list.

    18. SP

      Ah.

    19. AH

      But I think that the concept of mentorship is so much different than the concept of looking to the other members of our species more broadly-

    20. SP

      Mm.

    21. AH

      ... for what is cool, what's worth pursuing. How valuable for you have mentors been? I know you're, you've been a mentor to many people. By the way, you're on the list.

    22. SP

      (laughs)

    23. AH

      Just to embarrass you. I can show you that list.

    24. SP

      Ah, you know what?

    25. AH

      From, from, from the late '90s, late '90s, 2000s transition, how important are mentors and how do we differentiate mentors from the voice in our own head? How important is it to be self-guided versus encouraged and guided by these mentor voices?

    26. SP

      That's a great question.

    27. AH

      Because I believe that the general public is the absolute wrong signal. I think that, I think that signal-

    28. SP

      I agree with you there.

    29. AH

      ... uh, takes you off the metaphorical cliff.

    30. SP

      Yeah. Yeah. Uh, mentors have been really important to me, very important. Um, in fact, I, I wrote a memoir called Government Cheese. I don't know if you've heard about this one at all. But it's sh- it's do- uh, the chapters are n- named after the various mentors that I've had. And, um, many, many of them, and a lot of them are not in the writing world at all. Um, and, um, like my, my friend Paul, he was in the, in the writing world, but, um...You know, I had a boss at a trucking company that I worked for that was like a real mentor to me. I once, I picked fruit in, uh, Washington State, you know, and, uh, as a migratory worker, you know, for a while, and I had a mentor there. I never even knew his, um, last name. He was a fellow fruit picker, you know, a former Marine from, uh, the Cho... He was at the Chosin Reservoir in Korea. I'm sure nobody listening to this know- knows what that is, but it-

  16. 1:06:46 – 1:10:42

    Perfectionism

    1. AH

      solid journals and some end up in spectacular journals and some projects go nowhere. That's just the reality.

    2. SP

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AH

      The key is to figure out which one is which-

    4. SP

      Hm.

    5. AH

      ... and, but finish things. At the other end of the spectrum is this idea that if you are able to make something better, you should. And, uh, this is the reason I delayed my book-

    6. SP

      (laughs)

    7. AH

      ... release for a year. I felt like I could make it better. There was, n- there are new data, I wanted to add illustrations, but at some point it's gotta ship. So, w- I think we can all agree that perfectionism is not great because it limits our ability to complete things and ship things off. Sometimes even our ability to do the work in the first place. But at some level, if we can make something better, we probably should. That a- that's also, you know, part and parcel with-... meeting resistance and pushing through it. So how do you balance those, th- those two? They're, they're in a strong push-pull for me.

    8. SP

      I think that, uh, it's another great question. I mean, it's so easy to, as a writer, to noodle all day with one paragraph, you know, and, and of course, it's obviously, you know, uh, resi- resistance is watching and laughing at you. You know, "Oh man, look at this poor idiot. I've gotten him to completely blow the day on this one thing." So that sort of perfectionism is a form of resistance and really has to be avoided at all costs. Um, on the other hand, you do wanna produce something that's really good, you know, and not... But, you know, like Seth Godin says, when it's, you know, ship it, right? When it's ready to go, you know, there comes a time when, you know, "I'm just noodling with this because I'm afraid of the, uh, response. Is this gonna fail? Is it gonna fizzle? Is it gonna crash and, and burn? So I don't wanna s- ship it out right now." I had a friend, I tell this story, who had, uh, written this inc- deeply personal novel about, uh, salvaging a ship. He had been in the merchant marine and, you know what I mean, what a great metaphor that was.

    9. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    10. SP

      And I read it, it was in its sh- its mailing box, back in the days when you typed it out on a typewriter, ready to go, and to his agent, and he couldn't make himself send it off, you know? And the b- the, the sad part of the story is my friend died and there... so that was... I don't know whether that was perfectionism or just fear of, of, um, being judged or in the r- in the real world. But... so it's a real vice, perfectionism, and, uh, to be guarded against at all costs, I think. But when a thing is ready to go, let it go.

    11. AH

      I'd like to talk about death.

    12. SP

      Uh-huh.

    13. AH

      Um, you know, I've-

    14. SP

      Me too.

    15. AH

      I've... (laughs) Great. Um, I've listened to and read, uh, Steve Jobs's biography.

    16. SP

      Hmm.

    17. AH

      Um, uh, I think it's spectacular. Um, I had a particular interest in it because-

    18. SP

      What's the title? 'Cause I've never read it.

    19. AH

      Uh, my name is-

    20. SP

      Oh, I see. Oh, oh, I see.

    21. AH

      It's Steve Jobs by Walter Isaacson. It's a phenomenal bio-

    22. SP

      Oh, I see. Oh, wasn't by Steve Jobs.

    23. AH

      No, it's not an autobiography.

    24. SP

      Yeah.

    25. AH

      Although there was communication with him in the process of writing the book.

    26. SP

      Ah. Oh, okay.

    27. AH

      I think that's the, the, one of the kind of agreements for Isaacson is you have to be willing to talk to him-

    28. SP

      Uh-huh.

    29. AH

      ... and he can talk to people in one's life, and, uh, it's spectacular. And, and one of the reasons I was so interested in it is that, you know, the personal computer came out during my, you know, childhood.

    30. SP

      Mm-hmm.

  17. 1:10:42 – 1:16:49

    Contemplating Your Mortality, Family Honor

    1. AH

      Um, in some sense, people say it's part of the reason why he didn't pay much attention to, uh, kind of typical conventions and he was able to evolve the world-

    2. SP

      Mm.

    3. AH

      ... and create these incr- incredible products. Um, devices, I mean, portals. They're really portals of, of communication and creativity-

    4. SP

      Mm-hmm.

    5. AH

      ... and, um, having a strong sense of one's mortality seems very useful in that respect. The other end of the spectrum, I have a theory, which is that all forms of addiction are basically an attempt to try and avoid the reality that we're gonna die. To just forget that for moments. (laughs)

    6. SP

      Mm. Mm-hmm.

    7. AH

      Shorter or longer moments. And in some sense, the pursuit of flow states and creative works are an attempt to kind of either forget about that or to some people want to immortalize themselves. But I think knowing that one is going to die is an in- incredible driver. Um, I, I have always had a lot of energy, but it was only recently on, you know, on the threshold of my 50th birthday coming up, that I realized like, "Oh, I'm probably at about the halfway mark."

    8. SP

      (laughs)

    9. AH

      Uh, uh, you know, realistically.

    10. SP

      Yeah. Yeah.

    11. AH

      I'm a biologist.

    12. SP

      Yeah.

    13. AH

      I mean, I think, uh, genetic potential and human longevity is probably about 120. And with certain practices, maybe you can get out past your, you know, where one is fated to die by maybe five, maybe 10, maybe 20 years, and maybe new technologies will come along that will, um, expand that number. But I figure I'm probably about the halfway mark. So it's kind of nice to have a, like an "Oh, shit" moment because you stop wasting time.

    14. SP

      Uh-huh.

    15. AH

      Like anyone else, I've wasted time. So how present is your sense of death eventually coming? Hopefully a long time from now. Again, you're in spectacularly good health and, um, so that's important. But how present is the reaper in your process?

    16. SP

      Ah. (laughs)

    17. AH

      And do you think having a, a real sense that the reaper's coming is useful?

    18. SP

      Yeah, definitely. Um, I was, uh, having breakfast in New York a f- a couple of years ago with a friend of mine who's exactly my age, you know, and I asked him, I said, "Nick, how often do you think about your own mortality?" And he said, "Every fucking minute of every fucking day," you know?

    19. AH

      And maybe that's a little bit excessive because it can become paralyzing too.

    20. SP

      Yeah.

    21. AH

      Right?

    22. SP

      So, uh, I, I don't know if I, I go that far, but, uh, I'm definitely a- aware of it. You know, like Robert Redford died two days ago, right? In his sleep, you know? To me, he was like an immortal guy that was gonna live forever. Um, on the other hand, I have another friend who actually died a couple years ago, it was at my... one of my bosses in advertising named Phil Slott, great smart guy. And he said one time to me...... that people tell you that life is short, but really life is long. And like thinking about you, Andrew, that you're 50 years old, you've got another 50 years ahead of you, you know?

    23. AH

      Mm-hmm. God willing.

    24. SP

      So that one has to think, you know, it's, it can be also a form of resistance. Like for me at my age to think, "Well, I'm only gonna be around a few more years. I might as well fuck off or, you know, I don't have to work that hard." You know? But no, 'cause I'm, I might be around for another 20 years or, or more. That's a career. I should... I could write 15 books. I could make a m- who knows what. Um, certainly I have to... which is part of why I go to the gym, you know, to think of, uh, I don't wanna start thinking that I'm on the way down or I haven't got... You know? Life is, life is long. It's longer than we think. And, and we have in the sense of, uh, it's opportunity to do stuff, but it's also an obligation to, to do stuff, to keep evolving, so on and so forth. Um, on another, on another sort of side of... I don't know if this was a pretty bit confessional for me. I know when, when I was a kid, um, our family was sort of like the black sheep of our bigger family. Like, everybody, all the, uh, my uncles and stuff were all really successful and my dad was kinda struggling, you know? And so it became a thing in my mind where I said, and this is just looking ahead for how long you're gonna live, I said, "I'm gonna show these motherfuckers that our family is not what they think they are." You know? And so I, um... that's been a real driver for me, more so than any idea of mortality. Even over those long years where I was getting nowhere, that, uh, um, to sort of honor my dad and, um, that I was gonna, you know, hang in there and do something.

    25. AH

      Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I think that's a great opportunity for us to talk about, um, another kind of resistance which is actually very adaptive and, uh, can propel us forward, which is, um, having some friction with someone or something, now this is a little politically incorrect-

    26. SP

      Uh-huh.

    27. AH

      ... but in one's mind to be able to drive yourself harder. And I think this can take on toxic forms, but I think it can also be very beneficial. There's this great moment in one of those Dark Knight movies where The Joker has the opportunity to kill Batman-

    28. SP

      Uh-huh.

    29. AH

      ... and he says something like, "Just kill me." And The Joker says, "Kill you?" He said, "I don't wanna kill you."

    30. SP

      (laughs)

  18. 1:16:49 – 1:22:01

    Proving Yourself & Competition

    1. AH

      story here, but it doesn't matter. I think that the, it's kind of evident what, what we're talking about, that having someone that you, you're not gonna let get the best of you, that you know you can do better, um, can be very useful. It can also be toxic as we pointed out-

    2. SP

      Yeah. Yeah.

    3. AH

      ... because it's... I feel having experienced that and having won by the way... No, I'm just kidding. (laughs)

    4. SP

      (laughs)

    5. AH

      Not kidding, but, but that the, the energy that it pulls on... Here I'm gonna put my physiologist, uh, neuroscience hat on, is, you know, it's more of an a- adrenal, adrenaline type drive-

Episode duration: 2:15:02

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