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Alex Honnold on Huberman Lab: How Rehearsal Beats Courage

Honnold spent years on a methodical plan before the El Cap solo. He explains how focused preparation removes risk; certainty, not courage, is the real goal.

Andrew HubermanhostAlex Honnoldguest
Sep 1, 20251h 49mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:17

    Alex Honnold

    1. AH

      Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Alex Honnold. Alex Honnold is a professional rock climber. He's best known for successfully free soloing, meaning climbing with no ropes or latching on of any kind, El Capitan, also called El Cap, which is a nearly 3,000-foot climb in Yosemite National Park. It was also, of course, the topic and focus of the incredible movie Free Solo, which if you haven't seen, you absolutely should watch. I've wanted to talk to Alex for a long time now. I'm not a rock climber. I've tried it a few times. But I've been extremely curious to understand Alex's mental frame around learning and training and his broader philosophy on life. My interest stems from the fact that Alex's free solo of El Cap and his other climbs make him one of the most accomplished and innovative athletes in all of history. And of course, the free solo of El Cap is extremely high-risk and high-consequence. Today we discuss how to envision and make progress towards your goals and how to merge the demands of daily work and family life with incremental training for spectacularly big or long challenges of any kind. Alex makes clear that it's essential and possible to build your capacity to exert effort and how to do that in a regimented way so as to bring seemingly impossible goals within your reach. We also discuss how coming to terms with one's own mortality is actually one of the best motivators for building a great life and why most people hide from that reality, and as a result, end up living much smaller lives than they otherwise would. We also discuss training, literally what to do to build strength and endurance, not just for sake of rock climbing, but just generally. And that takes us into discussions about weight training, body weight training, running, hiking, and a bunch of other things that you can apply. Even if you have zero interest in rock climbing, today's conversation with Alex Honnold will definitely change the way that you think about your life, what you can make of it, and how to go about that. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Alex Honnold.

  2. 2:17 – 5:00

    Intrinsic & Extrinsic Motivation, Setting Big Goals

    1. AH

      Alex Honnold, welcome.

    2. AH

      Thanks for having me.

    3. AH

      I think Free Solo is remarkable for a ton of reasons, but as a good friend of mine, who I think you know, Michael Muller, photographer, he said, before I'd seen the film, he said, "It's wild because you're terrified as an observer the entire time, but you also know that Alex survives from the be- very beginning," which is a very unusual, uh-

    4. AH

      But I think some people don't know that.

    5. AH

      Oh, really?

    6. AH

      Some people watch the movie and they literally have no idea what it's about or what's going on, and they spend the whole movie being like, "Oh, my God, what's gonna happen?"

  3. 5:00 – 10:09

    Preparing for Free Solo of El Capitan, Route Memorization & Conditions

    1. AH

      ... west side of the wall stays in the shade until 11:00 or noonish in the morning. So you go at 4:00 in the morning and then you have, eh, sort of eight hours of solid shade. So normally the temperature and the, the conditions feel relatively stable. And you spend the whole season working on it, so you kind of know that tomorrow's going to feel the same as it did today, roughly, you know? And so it's all within a relatively narrow band, particularly in the spring, which is why I did it in the springtime. In the, in the fall and the autumn, it's a little bit different because the sun is lower in the sky, so it gets sun much earlier and it actually is way hotter, counterintuitively. It's, like, colder when it's in the shade, but then hotter when it's in the sun. And anyways, that makes it harder for climbing, obviously. But when I free soloed Elk Cap, I was spending three or four months a year in Yosemite every year, like, you know, a month or two every spring and every, every autumn. And so you're spending four months a year in a place, you just know how it feels, you know? It's like you're used to getting up that early, you're used to climbing on the wall, and you're just kind of like, "Oh, it's, it's gonna be another beautiful day on the rock." And actually, the day that I did the free solo of Elk Cap, it was actually, um, a little more humid and a little warmer than, than I maybe... than would have been optimal. You know, like, it's not what I would have chosen. But that's just the way it was that day and I was kind of like, "Well, this is my day," you know? (laughs) You kind of just have to do the thing. Um, but it had been, like, overcast that night. And you know when it's cloudy at night, the lows don't drop as low? And so I woke up and it was, like, kind of muggy-ish feeling. I was like, "It's not, it's not great for being 4:00 in the morning." It was like, feels kind of gross. But I was like, "This is my day." And it was fun.

    2. AH

      So you form a relationship with the rock. You kind of, like, learn to recognize, um, its different states. When you did it and completed it, 'cause I know you set out one day and then you, you called it off.

    3. AH

      Yeah, that, that was in the autumn.

    4. AH

      Okay.

    5. AH

      That was, that was the season before.

    6. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    7. AH

      And, uh, basically the season was ending, like, storms were coming in the next week type deal, and it was like, the season was winding down. It was kind of like, "Well, I should at least take a shot," because I'd done a lot of prep and I felt mostly ready. (laughs) And it turns out I just wasn't ready ready. And so, so I wound up bailing. But that was kind of my end of the season, like, "I think I can squeak this in," knowing that if I couldn't squeak it in then, then I'd have to wait six more months. And with the pressure of the film crew and all that stuff, knowing that there are all these people, like, working and waiting for you, you're kind of like, "Well, I oughta at least try to get this done." (laughs) 'Cause it's like all these people are waiting on me. But as it turns out, I just didn't quite have it yet. And then when I ultimately did do it in the spring, I was much better prepared, felt way better. The whole experience worked out better. So now in retrospect, I'm like, "Oh, I'm glad that it played out that way," 'cause, uh, you know, it was, it was better. But at the time it was, you know, I was like, "Oh, God, I failed on this thing. All these people are watching. It's embarrassing." It's, you know, it was, you know, (laughs) it was all very stressful at the time.

    8. AH

      Yeah, the external pressures have to be, you know, pretty, pretty mighty when, you know, when, especially when they're your friends. I, I guess one could imagine, like, when it's-

    9. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    10. AH

      ... just business, you can just be like, "Well, it's just business." But yeah, you had a lot of friends up there with you.

    11. AH

      For me, the thing is, is that if I'm gonna go climb the wall, you know, I start climbing at 4:30 in the morning or 5:00 or something. So that means some of my friends, to get in position at the top of the wall, are getting up at, like, 1:00 in the morning and then hiking to the top of the mountain with a heavy backpack. And if you're asking a bunch of your buddies to go hiking at 1:00 in the morning, like, you better live up to your end of the, the thing, you know? Like, if you say you're gonna do something, you better actually do the thing 'cause your friends... Obviously, no one's complaining. No one is pressuring me. No one's... But at the same time, you don't want to bail. (laughs)

    12. AH

      Sure.

    13. AH

      Like, it's pretty embarrassing if you tell someone you're gonna do something and then you just can't do it.

    14. AH

      Well, they certainly wanted the outcome to be only one way and-

    15. AH

      Yeah.

    16. AH

      ... e-

    17. AH

      And they were all super positive and supportive-

    18. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    19. AH

      ... and it's all great, but you still can't help but feel that pressure.

    20. AH

      Sure. Well, it certainly worked out. I'm curious, on a scale of one to 10, 10 being a total certainty, um, along that trajectory, uh, when you completed it, uh, were there any phases where, um, y- you felt you had to improvise against the original plan? Uh-

    21. AH

      You mean on the day of the actual free solo?

    22. AH

      On the day of the actual completion of, of the free solo on Elk Cap.

    23. AH

      No, on, on the day I was 100%. Everything was perfect. I knew exactly what to do. It was all amazing. Um, but it took a really long time to get, to get there, you know? It's like, ye- literally years of, of building up to it and then months of preparation and everything. But no, on the day, it was, it was perfect.

  4. 10:09 – 12:35

    Sponsors: Joovv & BetterHelp

    1. AH

      I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor, Joovv. Joovv makes medical grade red light therapy devices. Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast, it is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology. Now, in addition to sunlight, red light and near infrared light sources have been shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health, including faster muscle recovery, improved skin health and wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, even mitochondrial function, and improving vision itself. What sets Joovv lights apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy device is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning specific wavelengths of red light and near infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations. Personally, I use the Joovv whole body panel about three to four times a week, and I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel. If you'd like to try Joovv, you can go to Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman. Joovv is offering an exclusive discount to all Huberman Lab listeners with up to $400 off Joovv products. Again, that's Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman to get up to $400 off. Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp. BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online. I've been doing weekly therapy for well over 30 years. Initially, I didn't have a choice. It was a condition of being allowed to stay in school. But pretty soon I realized that therapy is an extremely important component to overall health. There are essentially three things that make up great therapy. First of all, it provides the opportunity to have a really good rapport with somebody that you can really trust and talk to about essentially any issue that you want. Second of all, it can provide support in the form of emotional support or directed guidance, or of course, both. And third, expert therapy should provide you useful insights, insights that can help you improve in your work life, your relationships, and in your relationship with yourself. With BetterHelp, they make it very easy for you to find an expert therapist who you resonate with and that can provide those three benefits that come from expert therapy. Also, because BetterHelp therapy is done entirely online, it's very time efficient and easy to fit into a busy schedule. There's no commuting to a therapist's office or sitting in a waiting room looking for parking, any of that. You just hop online and you do your session. If you'd like to try BetterHelp, you can go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month. Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.When

  5. 12:35 – 16:24

    Overthinking, Kinesthetic Flow; Climbing & Surprise

    1. AH

      you climb, um, I'm curious where your mental horizon is. Uh, I, I can make up a story as a non-climber that your mental horizon is always on just the- the next, uh, the next maneuver, just getting further up-

    2. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AH

      ... or further over. Sometimes, of course, you have to go down and up. Um, but that your- your sort of, um, time-bending and your space-bending is- is very, very close.

    4. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    5. AH

      Um, but do you ever go into states where you're, uh, sort of in automaticity? I mean, we hear about flow, right?

    6. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    7. AH

      But where you find yourself kind of maneuvering as opposed to, um, being hyper-strategic about what's happening in the next five seconds, 10 seconds?

    8. AH

      Well, I think the- the aspiration is to be in that, you know, flow state, whatever you wanna call it. But, um, y- you know, actually, I think even in the film, there are some quotes from me saying autopilot and things. Like, I'm, you know, I'm aspiring to be on autopilot.

    9. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    10. AH

      So I'm aspiring to not be thinking too much about it. And- and that's, for me at least, why it required so much practice, was to be able to- to just do something almost by rote, you know, by- by re- through repetition, just to do the thing that you've practiced without having to think about it. 'Cause I think once you start thinking about it too much, you're just more prone to not just make errors, but just, like, get too ... get caught up in your own mind. And I don't know. I mean, the- the aspiration was just to do the thing.

    11. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    12. AH

      Like, no thinking about it, no hesitation, you know, no emotional, uh, you know, affect around it and to just do it.

    13. AH

      Mm-hmm. Is the kinesthetic aspect of it big? In other words, are you feeling your way, uh, through it, as well as, um, using vision? Um, I mean, I imagine that these things start to blend.

    14. AH

      Yeah, I've actually never been asked s- something quite like that. In some ways, I mean, the kinesthetic aspect is- is maybe the whole thing. Like, I mean, it is kind of like dancing or something, where you are just flowing over stone. I mean, obviously, you're looking around and you're looking at your footholds, and you're sort of placing your feet correctly that way. But- but really, you're just doing sequences. You're just flowing. Like, your body is moving.

    15. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    16. AH

      I mean, it ... I think when you climb well, and- and particularly when you've rehearsed something and- and you know the climb really well, it feels like jogging or swimming or sort of other elemental movement patterns, where it's just, like, your body doing what it's meant to do, and it- it feels great, you know? It's like, it's really nice.

    17. AH

      Do you ever surprise yourself still, like, that, uh, in training things, you know, "I'm surprised that worked out," and then s-

    18. AH

      Yeah.

    19. AH

      ... and then stick with that kinesthetic sense? I've, um, been listening to an amazing book by Twyla Tharp. She's a, uh, choreographer. Uh, she was a ballerina. She's a choreographer, and- and she said that, um, what distinguishes, you know, sort of virtuosity from mastery is that ... when you start to surprise yourself.

    20. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    21. AH

      And I think you're certainly in that category of virtu- of virtuoso. Um, how often does surprise come about?

    22. AH

      For me personally, that's maybe my favorite moment in climbing, is when you surprise yourself. Um, and this isn't so much with free soloing, because with free soloing, you don't want to be surprised. (laughs)

    23. AH

      (laughs)

    24. AH

      But, uh, but with a ... but with a rope on, you know, you have moments all the time where you're sure you're about to fall because you're, you know, up against your physical limits or whatever, and then you stick a move that you were sure you weren't going to.

    25. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    26. AH

      Um, and, you know, it doesn't happen that often, but when it does, you're like, "Oh, I exceeded my own expectations." It's like, it's like the best feeling, you know? It happens from time to time.

    27. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    28. AH

      In- in some ways, actually, I th- I was telling one of my friends, I think that that might be, uh, one of the ways in which I see aging. You know, like, as I'm getting older as a climber, I think I surprise myself less often. (laughs) You know, I think, as, like, a 24-year-old, you just don't know your own limitations that much, and you frequently surprise yourself, where I'm like, "Wow, I really outdid myself. I really did something that I was sure I couldn't do, but I managed to do it." And now, as a recent 40-year-old, you know, like, that happens from time to time, for sure, but not all the time, you know? (laughs) It's like ...

    29. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    30. AH

      And- and now occasionally, I have things where I was like, "Oh, I was sure I could do that," and- and then I failed, you know? And you're kind of like, oh, you can blame conditions, you can blame whatever, but you're kind of like, "Oh, I really thought I would do that, and I- and I fell off anyway," and you're like, "Damn it." (laughs)

  6. 16:24 – 23:04

    Aging & Climbing; Olympics & Broadening Climbing Culture; Parkour

    1. AH

      the role of aging in climbing, uh, traditionally and how you're experiencing it? Like, there are fields of- of science, like mathematics, where the- the stereotype is, uh, you know, it's a young person's game, and then there are fields like biology, which is a bit more incremental, and people can have fantastic discoveries and long careers, tha- those are academic, uh-

    2. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AH

      ... cerebral, uh, um, endeavors. But, you know, we have our understanding of this for every sport. Uh, for climbing, what's the lore for, um, climbing and for free soloists in particular? That it's an old man's game, it's a young man's game? Woman's game, excuse me. Um-

    4. AH

      I don't- I don't think anybody calls free soloing an old man's game. (laughs) But, um, but no, but, uh, it could be. But no, I think in general, climbing has more longevity than most sports, just because it's relatively low-impact on your body. It's very technique and, like, movement focused, and so it's not just pure physical strength. That said, I mean, climbing is in the Olympics now, and the people winning the Olympics are all sort of 18 to 23-ish, you know, sort of same as gymnastics type of range.

    5. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    6. AH

      So I think at the most elite levels of climbing performance, it's kind of similar to gymnastics probably. But then to do interesting, new things on real rock outdoors, I think there's a much wider latitude. You know, it's like ... Uh, and then even into your 50s and 60s, there are plenty of climbers who are leading expeditions to new places, developing new climbs, you know, you know, doing things that are noteworthy and sort of meaningful for the climbing community, even though they're not necessarily cutting edge physically.

    7. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    8. AH

      So I think there's a lot of ... a lot of opportunity for climbing, more than most sports. And- and, uh, I think actually, and the other big thing with climbing is that in so many other sports, like, think ball sports, you know, NBA, NFL, uh, baseball, whatever, it's kind of like if you don't make the team, then you're done playing forever. Like, you'll literally never play football again if you're not a professional football player. Whereas with climbing, even if you're not playing at the highest level, you can still go climb all the time, and you can still do cool climbs. You can still do things that matter. You can help teach. You can do whatever. And so you can kind of like stay in the game much, much longer.

    9. AH

      You mentioned that climbing's in the Olympics now. We see a lot of sports like skateboarding and climbing now in the Olympics, and these were sports that traditionally were done-You know, people just go to, go to where these things were done and, uh, it wasn't-

    10. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    11. AH

      ... always recorded because there wasn't social media back then.

    12. AH

      More that there weren't smartphones, there weren't cameras.

    13. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    14. AH

      That, you know ... It's like, it's not even about the social, it's about the- whether or not you can record it easily.

    15. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    16. AH

      But ...

    17. AH

      So, um, I'm guessing there's a big influx of, of young kids getting into this now. Do you see the sport progressing faster?

    18. AH

      Yeah.

    19. AH

      And I'm also curious about the, the culture, whether or not, you know, like, any time a sport, um, is, is in the Olympics, the thing is like, oh, it's kind of quote unquote sold out now. It's gonna change, it's gonna become more commercial. So, what- what's the culture within climbing about, um, about this big expansion? What are your thoughts?

    20. AH

      I mean, personally, I'm, I'm way into it. I mean, I was a kid that got into climbing in the climbing gym, and, and it's changed my life for the better, you know. Like, I love climbing, I think it's great. You know, I can certainly see the sort of commercial influx from the Olympics are sort of like more mainstream, uh, adoption of climbing. But that's kinda great, 'cause I mean, most of my friends are sort of climbing industry adjacent professionals in some ways. You know, like, they make ... They're like coaches or dieticians or setters. Like, they, they make the climbs that people climb on. Um, and so basically, the bigger the industry gets, the more people like that, uh, can make a living doing the thing that they love to do, even if they're not necessarily sponsored professionals at the highest level. So I'm kinda like, you know, a broadening industry is, is kinda good for everybody. And mostly, I mean, climbing's awesome. Like, if people enjoy it, you know, it's like, why not get into climbing? It's like certainly, I mean, I think it's better than most other fitness modalities, you know. It's like, oh, why do CrossFit when you can go rock climbing? It's way cooler.

    21. AH

      I mean, it certainly seems to-

    22. AH

      Way more fun. That's for sure.

    23. AH

      And you can do it indoors or outdoors.

    24. AH

      Yeah.

    25. AH

      There are probably certain aspects you wouldn't wanna do alone for safety reasons, but, um ...

    26. AH

      I think when people ask, like, what do you worry about with climbing culture and all that kind of stuff, like with the Olympics and the, the mainstream appeal, I'm kind of like, you know, if somebody wants to be a climber and only go to the climbing gym in a, in a major city for their entire life, like, that's great. Like, if they just wanna climb plastic the rest of their life, that's still better than going to CrossFit or doing whatever else. I'm like, that's cool. Like, you don't have to go climb El Cap to be a climber. I'm kinda like, people can do whatever they want, and I think, I think that's great for the sport. And, and you are seeing standards rise very quickly right now sort of as a result. Just, like, better access to gyms, more kids getting into it. You just see talent rise faster.

    27. AH

      I come across, uh, social media accounts of, uh, parkour kids every once in a while doing a- absolutely insane stuff in, uh, urban terrains usually.

    28. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    29. AH

      What's the crossover, if any, between parkour and, and climbing of the sort that you do?

    30. AH

      There's a little bit. Not that much, but, uh, but climbers often ... Like competition climbing, uh, like bouldering, which is in the Olympics, has definitely taken a slight turn towards parkourish sorts of moves, like big run and jumps and, like, crazy swings and things like that. And so s- some old school climbers complain that it's, like, gotten a little too jumpy, that type of bouldering. Um, but I'm kinda into it. I mean, it's ... I don't know. This is all very, like, inside baseball. Like, how do you separate ... Like, basically at the highest level, competitors are all very, very strong, so then how do you separate these different competitors who are all climbing at an elite level? And one of the ways is complicated movement like that, like run and jumps and coordination and things like that. So, I don't know. I mean, I think it's cool. Um, I've actually met a, like a couple of professional parkour athletes who also climb. Uh, and they are really good at, at very particular sorts of things (laughs) . Where you're like, it's ... I mean, it's amazing to see.

  7. 23:04 – 29:00

    Grip Strength, Aging, Climbing Technique, Yosemite National Park, Half Dome

    1. AH

    2. AH

      Yeah. I'm intrigued by, um, the training aspects and the, some of the fitness aspects. I agree that it ... Um, having only done it a little bit. I mean, I've been to a climbing gym once or twice.

    3. AH

      Yeah, I was gonna ask.

    4. AH

      You know.

    5. AH

      So, so you've gone to the gym and stuff.

    6. AH

      Yeah, I've gone up and down the wall a few times.

    7. AH

      Yeah, cool.

    8. AH

      I've belayed for people a few times. But I am by no means, um-

    9. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    10. AH

      ... you know, uh, skilled at it. It'd be fun to ch- to get into 'cause I ... Happy birthday, by the way.

    11. AH

      Oh, thanks, thanks.

    12. AH

      I just turned 40. I'm turning, uh, 50 soon, and, um, I think more about, um ... I'm happy with my strength and endurance, but I li- I think more about mobility now.

    13. AH

      Mm.

    14. AH

      And also-

    15. AH

      Climbing is great for that.

    16. AH

      Climbing's great for that. And, and there's a lot of interesting l- literature on brain longevity and just maintaining your cognition and the strength of your, of your distal body. So toes and fingers, believe it or not. It's a correlate. Like the toe strength-

    17. AH

      Yeah, isn't that, isn't that... I've always thought that's just a correlation thing.

    18. AH

      It's just a correlation.

    19. AH

      But that's not ... Because, yeah, like, because grip strength is just a proxy for all ... Uh, like, it means that you use your body a lot, and so therefore you're probably ...

    20. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    21. AH

      You know, like, when I read those things about, like, if you have strong grip-

    22. AH

      Right.

    23. AH

      ... it means this and this and this. I'm like, no, if you have a strong grip, it means that you do stuff all the time.

    24. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    25. AH

      And so, as a result of doing stuff all the time, you're probably sharper than, than somebody who doesn't do stuff all the time.

    26. AH

      That's right.

    27. AH

      Right?

    28. AH

      So it's a correlate. Um, at the same time, the, the motor neurons that control, like, trunk movements and contraction of the trunk muscles, like as you go out from the midline, they are, they're in layers in the spinal cord, so they literally, like, the, the mus- the motor neurons that control, like, the core-

    29. AH

      I'm, like, sitting up straight-

    30. AH

      ... sit, sit closer to the-

  8. 29:00 – 38:32

    Free Soloing & Rope Climbing, Safety & Risk; Aging & Death; Mentors

    1. AH

    2. AH

      I'm curious about things in free soloing that, as an uninformed spectator, we think, oh, you know, that's the hardest part, that's, that's the most difficult thing. But I imagine, um, i- inside of the sport, like any, uh, that there are things that are very difficult and maybe even perilous that we're not aware of, like what's some of the non-obvious aspects of free soloing-

    3. AH

      Hmm.

    4. AH

      ... if they exist? Um, because I always think, okay, you know, if... I can imagine, oh, that's super tough, but that might be the easier or-

    5. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    6. AH

      ... uh, less tough. Usually there are these kind of hidden, um, I don't want to call them hidden dangers, but hidden dangers in a sport. What, what are some things that the observer wouldn't, wouldn't be aware of?

    7. AH

      Yeah, I'm, I'm not sure. I'm not sure what the hidden dangers are. I would say though that the, the obvious visual dangers, like f- for a non-climber just watching free soloing-

    8. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    9. AH

      ... I think they generally misperceive all the dangers and risks involved. You know, they just see it and they're like, "That's crazy. That's what..." you know, and like whatever they're bringing to it is probably not the actual case. Just because it's hard to visually tell what's challenging in climbing, you know? You're like, "That's a vertical wall," but if it's like a nice crack going over a vertical wall, that's actually quite easy and secure climbing. But then some of the other stuff, you know, if there are really small holds, you're trusting your feet, I don't know, I mean, it's, it's just really hard to judge that stuff visually. Like you have to do it to, to experience it. But I think that, that honestly the whole perception of risk around free soloing is maybe slightly misperceived by people. So with climbing in general, like if you go climbing with a rope, uh, like if you're traditional climbing, like if you're climbing with a rope and, and gear and you're gonna climb Half Dome, let's say, when you start climbing from the ground, you go some distance before you f- put your first piece of gear in, because that's just kind of the nature of climbing, you go for a ways then you put in some gear, you clip your rope into it, and then you're protected. And then for whatever distance you're going, you're essentially free soloing to that point. You know, like there's always risk involved in climbing, because even if you have a rope on, depending how far you're going above your last piece of gear and, you know, what the terrain is like and whether or not the rock is good and all these other factors-... you know, you're more or less safe. And so I think people look at free soloing as, like, this binary, like, if you don't have a rope, that's dangerous. And you're kind of like, "Well, any time you're climbing there are dangers, or there could be, and you're constantly evaluating those and, and trying to mitigate them." And so I think that's, that's the big misperception. Because easy free soloing is probably... Like, if, if I'm somebody, you know, who's like an expert rock climber or whatever, I've been climbing 30 years, if I'm on an easy free solo, that's almost certainly safer than a very hard, certain types of hard climbing with a rope on. You know, and most of my scariest experiences as a climber actually have been with a rope on. Because with a rope, you're much more willing to push yourself into unknown terrain, because you're kind of like, "Surely there'll be something good just around the corner." And so you keep going around the corner and you keep not getting into good gear, and you're like, "Holy shit, it's getting scarier and scar-" Are we allowed to curse?

    10. AH

      Sure, yeah, yeah.

    11. AH

      I guess, yeah. Yeah. So you know, like-

    12. AH

      Even at each other, if you want to curse. (laughs)

    13. AH

      (laughs) Yeah, perfect. But so a lot of my scariest experiences have been with a rope on, because you're kind of like, "I'm sure it'll get better. I'm sure it'll get better," and it keeps getting worse and worse.

    14. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    15. AH

      And then pretty soon, you're in some position where you're definitely gonna die if you fall. But you never would have climbed into that position if you didn't have a rope on, 'cause you're just so much more conservative when you're ropeless. And when you're ropeless, you're kind of like, if something seems wrong, you just go down. (laughs) You know, 'cause you're just not gonna push that far.

    16. AH

      I saw the movie Meru.

    17. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    18. AH

      Uh, that was pretty intense. Um, that, that wh-

    19. AH

      I mean, that's an example of pushing really fricking far with a rope on.

    20. AH

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

    21. AH

      You know, (laughs) it's like, because you have a rope, you're willing to just keep pushing into the u- pushing into the unknown. But then you wind up in a position where you're like, "This is pretty fricking extreme." You know, (laughs) it's like, I mean, you saw the film. It's, it's all totally insane.

    22. AH

      Yeah, it is insane. And I feel like ice and snow bring a whole other dimension.

    23. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    24. AH

      Um, yeah, I think that, um, in your sport, in free soloing, like, the, the idea from the spectator's side is, you know, like, these guys... Like, one fall and they, and they're dead, right?

    25. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    26. AH

      Um, I've heard you say before that's actually not true. Um, I mean-

    27. AH

      I mean, yeah. It's kind of true in that-

    28. AH

      ... you don't want to fall, but-

    29. AH

      Yeah. Like, yeah, it's true that at most places if you fall off, you're gonna die. But, like, when I started free soloing as, as a, as a kid, not that I, like, started and then only did that. But on my first free solos when I was young, in the back of my mind, I'd always be like, "If you slip, you'll die." You know, and the reality is that there are tons of places where your foot can slip and nothing else moves. You know, like, your hands are locked on, you're holding on tight, and your foot slipped, and you're just kind of like, "Oh, my foot slipped," and then you keep climbing, and it's no big deal. Um, I mean, there are also some places where if your foot slips, you're gonna die for sure. And the key is differentiating between those. (laughs) But I think when I started, you know, it was like, "If anything happens, you'll die." And as you do it more, you're actually like, "No, I mean, a lot of things can happen and it'll be fine. You just have to make sure that the wrong thing doesn't happen at the wrong time."

    30. AH

      I was surprised to hear you say that, uh, yes, free soloists die, but oftentimes they die not free soloing. They die doing other things. Uh, I'm fascinated by this, not through a morbid fascination, but for a number of reasons. So, uh, maybe you could elaborate on that a little bit.

  9. 38:32 – 41:29

    Sponsors: AG1 & Maui Nui

    1. AH

    2. AH

      I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens. As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for more than 13 years now. I discovered it way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been drinking it every day since. For the past 13 years, AG1 has been the same original flavor. They've updated the formulation, but the flavor has always remained the same. And now for the first time, AG1 is available in three new flavors: berry, citrus, and tropical. All the flavors include the highest quality ingredients in exactly the right doses to together provide support for your gut microbiome, support for your immune health, and support for better energy and more. So now you can find the flavor of AG1 that you like the most. While I've always loved the AG1 original flavor, especially when I mix it with water and a little bit of lemon or lime juice, that's how I've been doing it for basically 13 years, now I really enjoy the new berry flavor in particular. It tastes great, and I don't have to add any lemon or lime juice. I just mix it up with water. If you'd like to try AG1 and these new flavors, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer. Right now, AG1 is giving away an AG1 welcome kit that includes five free travel packs and a free bottle of vitamin D3K2. Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim the special welcome kit of five free travel packs and a free bottle of vitamin D3K2. Today's episode is also brought to us by Maui Nui Venison. Maui Nui Venison is the most nutrient dense and delicious red meat available. It's also ethically sourced. Maui Nui hunts and harvests wild axis deer on the island of Maui. This solves the problem of managing an invasive species while also creating an extraordinary source of protein. As I've discussed on this podcast before, most people should aim for getting one gram of quality protein per pound of body weight each day. This allows for optimal muscle protein synthesis, while also helping to reduce appetite and support proper metabolic health. Given Maui Nui's exceptional protein to calorie ratio, this protein target is achievable without having to eat too many calories. Their venison delivers 21 grams of protein with only 107 grams per serving, which is an ideal ratio for those of us concerned with maintaining or increasing muscle mass while supporting metabolic health. They have venison steaks, ground venison, and venison bone broth. I personally love all of them. In fact, I probably eat a Maui Nui venison burger pretty much every day, and if I don't do that, I eat one of their steaks, and sometimes I also consume their bone broth. And if you're on the go, they have Maui Nui venison sticks, which have 10 grams of protein per stick with just 55 calories. I eat at least one of those a day to meet my protein requirements. Right now, Maui Nui is offering Huberman Podcast listeners a limited collection of my favorite cuts and products. It's perfect for anyone looking to improve their diet with delicious, high quality protein. Supplies are limited, so go to maui nui venison.com/huberman to get access to this high quality meat today. Again, that's maui nui venison.com/huberman.

  10. 41:29 – 47:44

    Climbing Lifestyle, Training, Career; Recovery

    1. AH

      Do most climbers, um, as they're coming up, if, if they have aspirations to be, you know, great free soloists or, or other types of climbers, um, do they tend to work and do other things? Or is this like a, you're like all in, your, your, it's lifestyle, you live in a van? I mean, you can do that also a- after achieving, um, some degree of financial success. W- we know you've done that. We can talk about that. But is it the kind of thing where you have to give up other aspects of life in order to get really, really good at it?

    2. AH

      That's an interesting question. I'm not totally sure, because in some ways, so it depends what you mean by achieving success as a climber, because if you're trying to climb the hardest grades or go to the Olympics or things like that, in some ways, you're almost better off, uh, being a university student or something, like having a structured schedule that in some ways limits the amount of, that you can climb, because, um, you know, I don't know enough about other sports, but I s- I suspect this is akin to like powerlifting or something, where it's like if you're trying to be really, really strong, you kind of only need to do a little bit every couple days and then recover. And so for a sort of elite physical training for climbing, you really only need, you know, say, three or four hour sessions four or five days a week, and then it's like, what do you do with the rest of your time? (laughs)

    3. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    4. AH

      And so like you might as well have a job or ... And so a lot of my friends who like write code for a living or, you know, do things like that are very, very strong climbers because of the, the, the schedule that it allows, the structure. Um, that said, I think if you want to be a great free soloist or like a big adventure climber, you're probably better off living in a van and just doing the thing nonstop, because...... for that, you're not trying to have that peak muscular performance. You're trying to just learn a skill and do something all the time. And so then, like, hours of practice, I think, matter more in a way.

    5. AH

      Maybe we can talk a little bit about recovery, uh, as long as we're talking about, you know, number of hours that one puts in. Um, I'm sure your recovery looks different than it used to. Um, but what, what do you do to recover between sessions? Are you big believer in sauna, cold? Is it just-

    6. AH

      No, I-

    7. AH

      ... or just basically sleep?

    8. AH

      No, I, like, push my three-year-old on the swings, you know. Like, that's how I recover-

    9. AH

      (laughs)

    10. AH

      ... is I, like, play with the kids on the swings. And, uh, and I try to... I mean, you know, I, I try to eat relatively well. I try to sleep enough. Uh, like, I do all the basics for recovery. But, um, but no, I mean, I basically just survive in between. (laughs) I was actually just joking with somebody that I think, you know, as a, as a 24-year-old living by myself in a van, I would have crazy days of climbing, and then on a rest day, I would, like, binge-watch an entire season of some show while eating an entire flat of Oreos, just, like, never even leave the bed of my van. And then the next day go out and, like, do a speed record on something-

    11. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    12. AH

      ... or just be like, "I'm, ah, I'm so psyched."

    13. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    14. AH

      You know? And now I'm like, I'm definitely not doing that now r- or at least, no, I haven't done that in forever, 'cause I just don't have the time and don't have, um... Yeah, so I think now it takes a little more effort to recover, and it's just a little slower probably.

    15. AH

      So all this-

    16. AH

      But it's hard to say, though, because a lot of that's just having kids and-

    17. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    18. AH

      ... and just having different demands of, of time and life.

    19. AH

      But it sounds like climbers are, are pretty, uh, grassroots in their, in their training and techniques, like, you know, in a lot of other areas.

    20. AH

      Yeah, I mean, I was living in a van. I was basically like, you know, super low overhead, no, no team, no support. I'm just living in a car doing the thing nonstop for, uh, you know, a decade. And so that's a pretty scrappy approach. And I think that, that in the years since then, climbing is professionalized a little bit, and there's a little more money. There's a little more support, and there's just a higher level of competition. I think, um, it'd be harder to, to achieve things doing just that now. I think you'd have to have a little more of a plan.

    21. AH

      Yeah, I can't help but sense that hyperbaric chambers and red light and massage guns and all that are gonna be making their way into the climate culture.

    22. AH

      Well, massage guns for sure are there.

    23. AH

      Okay. Yep.

    24. AH

      Yeah, mass- massage guns are there.

    25. AH

      Yep.

    26. AH

      I try to, like, roll out every once in a while.

    27. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    28. AH

      Even when I was living in my van, I would stretch and roll out-

    29. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    30. AH

      ... and do those types of things 'cause you just kind of have to stay supple.

  11. 47:44 – 51:09

    Technology, Smartphones & Distraction from Goals, Focus

    1. AH

    2. AH

      It's not ideal. A friend of mine, uh, Tom Bilyeu, he, he is very successful in business. He also has a podcast, and he was saying to me the other day, he goes, yeah, basically, uh, when young people ask him, you know, how to get good at whatever, business or anything, he just tells them, um, "Work as if, um, smartphones didn't exist." Meaning when you're bored, go work on the thing. When you don't have anything-

    3. AH

      Totally.

    4. AH

      ... like, if you get rid... I'm not urging-

    5. AH

      Totally.

    6. AH

      ... people get rid of their smartphone, but I'm curious about your relationship to technology because I think-

    7. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    8. AH

      ... nowadays, even though there are people training for the Olympics and whatnot, that it is very hard to d- to, uh, disengage from pressures of sponsors, pressures of just sheer communications, right?

    9. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    10. AH

      Um, and if you're coming up, this idea that you always have to be in contact with people, y- it limits the total number of reps that you're, that you get physically, but also mentally.

    11. AH

      Correct.

    12. AH

      'Cause I imagine there was a lot of times sitting back in bed and thinking about climbing-

    13. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    14. AH

      ... um, just like I used to sit back in bed and think about experiments and, you know, when I was in graduate school.

    15. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    16. AH

      Now, I'd probably... if that-

    17. AH

      Now ƒ (00:08:26) would exist, I'd probably-

    18. AH

      ... phones didn't exist, I'd probably be on my phone.

    19. AH

      Yeah.

    20. AH

      I used to think about experiments and figures and what would this work and that work. So what are your thoughts on kind of a mental, um, uh, engagement separate from climbing?

    21. AH

      No, I think that's, that's definitely a big thing. I mean, I think... I've, I've thought in the past that in some ways, I, I feel kind of lucky that I came up when I did in climbing, where it's like sort of pre-smartphone, pre-social, pre-, you know, you just live in your car and you do the thing, and that's it. And, and that's your whole lifestyle. Um, I mean, currently, you know, I...I have all the social media, uh, accounts and things, but I don't have any of the apps on my phone. I have a friend that manages it for me. Um, I like send all the content to her, but she posts stuff. And so it's a nice way to sort of disconnect myself from, from scrolling aimlessly. Um, I don't really have the time anymore anyway. You know, it's like I'd rather play with my kids than, than-

    22. AH

      Sure.

    23. AH

      ... frickin' scroll, uh, you know? (laughs) It's like... But no, I mean, that's, that's tough. I mean, eh, I think it'd be hard to be a kid now growing up, like, thinking that that's the norm, that you, like, have to be connected, that you have to be capturing everything, you know, documenting and then sharing it and posting it and just all the stuff. I've always felt like the thing about being a professional climber is that you just have to be a good climber. Like, first and foremost, the key to being a professional climber is being able to climb really well. And, like, the most important thing is doing the thing. And I just think when you get caught up in all the, the posting, sharing, streaming, all the whatever, that's not doing the thing, you know? But, but it's easy to conflate them, and it's... I don't know. Yeah. No, I think it'd be really hard.

    24. AH

      Yeah, I agree completely. And, and the hidden secret is that if you want something interesting to show on social media, the key is to not be on social media so you have something to bring to it.

    25. AH

      Totally. It's just so hard to actually be good at something.

    26. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    27. AH

      And it's... And, and this is goes back-

    28. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    29. AH

      ... to what we were just talking about with free soloing and perceived risk and all that kind of stuff, is that it's really easy to make something look rad soloing-wise. Like, you know, I could climb, I could climb the outside of this building, and it would, like, look insane. It would get tons of likes. People would think it's cool. But it's not cutting edge. It's not cool. It's not even hard. Like, it's not... It's, it's, it's whatever. But to actually do something that's cutting edge or newsworthy in, in climbing is, is pretty frigging hard.

    30. AH

      Mm-hmm.

  12. 51:09 – 55:56

    Pursuing Ambitious Goals, Tool: Small Daily Challenges

    1. AH

      clearly go after big, big goals. I mean, this, it's, it's a, it's a giant goal. I, I think it really stands, and I know you've been told this many times before, so, um, if it embarrasses you in a positive way, then great. Um, I mean, it, it stands as perhaps at least one of the, the most impressive physical feats i- in history because the risk consequence, uh, scenario there was you fall, you can potentially die. There may have been moments along the, along the climb where-

    2. AH

      A few brief moments, yeah. (laughs)

    3. AH

      Yeah, brief moments. (laughs)

    4. AH

      Where you're right above a ledge-

    5. AH

      Right.

    6. AH

      ... and you're like, "Oh, wow."

    7. AH

      Yeah, so, okay, so...

    8. AH

      (laughs)

    9. AH

      And it's, and it's so like you to, to point out those moments as opposed to all the other moments. It really speaks to your mindset. Um, but I think that going after big things, I mean, you know, uh, you know, building, um, rockets to go to the moon. I remember when I was a kid, Danny Wade decided to jump the Great Wall of China, to do it live. Someone had died trying it on a mountain bike. I remember thinking... I watched it on a little screen this big, and it was like, I've known that guy since, uh... We're out of touch now, but, um, for the most part, but since I was like 13, and he was always going after big things, jumping out of helicopters, you know, jumping the Great Wall of China, like go... You know? And then there are people who just push themselves. And so what, what I wonder is, on a daily basis, when you climb, um, do you ever just climb for fun? When you climb, are you always working on something? And there's this famous scene in Free Solo, like, uh, more or less immediately after you got down from the climb. You're, you're finger boarding again, and like you're, you're tr- training and you're enjoying your, your routine, um, which, by the way, is consistent with keeping the dopamine flowing for process as opposed to, like-

    10. AH

      Hmm.

    11. AH

      ... the postpartum depression that many people experience after a big feat is completed-

    12. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    13. AH

      ... selling a big company, et cetera. You avoid all that by doing exactly what you're doing. But then how quickly did your mind pivot to like, "Okay, what's next?" Uh, in the domain of climbing, 'cause I realize you've had two children.

    14. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    15. AH

      You, you got other aspects of your life. But, like, where's your mind, um, in terms of where you wanna take your life and your climbing?

    16. AH

      Yeah, on the one hand, I set big goals, I guess, you know, something like El Cap. The thing is, I would actually say that's more the outgrowth of setting consistent little goals, like, all the time. Like, I basically always have a running to-do list of, like, what am I doing tomorrow? What am I doing today? What am I trying to do this week? And that extends to climbing as well, with, like, what are all the little things I can be doing? Like, what are the little things I can tick this week? You know, I have a... My climbing journal goes back to 2005 or '06 or something, so basically everything I've ever climbed is, is logged with, you know, difficulty and times and whatever. And so I'm constantly trying to tick things as a climber, you know, just like to do new climbs that I haven't done before. And so, I mean, I think, like, actually my day of climbing yesterday could be a good example of this. So yesterday, my wife and I dropped off our older daughter at school, went to the cliff, uh, did a day of sport climbing, um, and then picked up our daughter on the way home. It's like a perfect day like that where you can kind of like make it all work. And I'm not gonna be able to go to that cliff very often this season just because of travel and work and, and life basically. So I don't want to s- have any big project there because I just won't have time to do it. You know, I'm trying to set my goals appropriately where I'm like, oh, there's no point in trying to do something that would take me a month or two to achieve if I only have three days. And so I had a goal for that day of trying to do this very particular little combination of routes that I hadn't done before. It's just something new, something interesting. It's not that hard. But then we got there, and it was, (laughs) it was like the worst conditions. It was like 86 degrees when we parked the car. And so, you know, it's like you're trying to work out in, like, horrendously hot, and it was also that kind of monsoon season, so it was very humid. So we got to the wall, and it's like disgusting. And I was kind of like, "Well, you know, it's a training day, like whatever." And so I tried to do this new combination of routes. Ultimately, I failed on it. I fell out the very fricking top of the wall. I was like so maxed and didn't do it. Uh, I'll probably get a chance to go back on Monday and hope... And I'll for sure do it then. Um, but, you know, it's like a very small goal. Like, this isn't cutting edge, like big. This isn't, this isn't even cool at all. Like, my friends won't even care. Like, they'll think it's stupid. But, but it's nice for me to have a reason for me to try my hardest for that particular day of climbing. And I think that the big goals come as a result of all those little things. You know, like if day by day, you're constantly doing something that's a little bit new, a little bit different, a little bit harder, a little, you know, whatever seems like the appropriate challenge for that day, I think that...... looking back at 20 years of climbing outside non-stop, that the big things have just come as a natural outgrowth of all those little things. You do, like, enough little things all the time, and then every once in a while something big happens. And so, I don't know, that's- you know, but I have to-do lists going back, like, years of, like, goals and all these aspirations. And, you know, some years I only do half of them, some years I do a third of them. And then, you know, something like free soloing El Cap sat on a list like that f- literally for years, and it kept floating to the next year, to the next year. 'Cause you get into Yosemite, you look at the wall, and you're like, "Nah, that's n- (laughs) you know, like, totally out of the question." And so you just, like, punt to the next year. And so, yeah, I mean, sometimes the goals don't happen, sometimes they do, but you kind of just have to let it play out. You know, it's more like the day-to-day little

  13. 55:56 – 59:40

    Fear, Brain Scan & Public Speaking; Evaluating Risk

    1. AH

      challenges.

    2. AH

      I love how matter of fact you are about it. You are wired different. Uh-

    3. AH

      You think? I mean-

    4. AH

      ... um, well, maybe not, I mean, because, um, like ... and this is an- a, a vastly, um, less, uh, high-risk, high-consequence endeavor, but, like, um, public speaking doesn't make me, it doesn't raise my level of, of cortisol or autonomic arousal at all, 'cause I've done so much of it, right?

    5. AH

      Yeah, 'cause you're super well-practiced, yeah.

    6. AH

      Yeah, uh, just, yeah. So, um, sometimes I'll, you know, I'll think, like, "Oh, I'm, like, a little more keyed up than I want to be," and I'll- I know how to calm myself down.

    7. AH

      Totally. Well, I'm actually-

    8. AH

      You know?

    9. AH

      I feel the same way with public speaking now, but that's after years of practice.

    10. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    11. AH

      'Cause it used to be, it used to be so stressful for me.

    12. AH

      Oh, yeah? (laughs)

    13. AH

      Like, so ... Yeah, no, I was, I was so shy.

    14. AH

      Proof that your amygdala does work like everybody else's.

    15. AH

      Totally.

    16. AH

      Yeah.

    17. AH

      No, I mean, exactly. That's why I hate all the stuff that's like, "Oh, you're just wired differently." 'Cause I'm like, no, I know that- You know, like, yeah, public- like, speaking in front of a class in school was, like, mortifying. But now after years of doing keynote speeches to, like, giant groups, I'm sort of like, no, now it's super chill.

    18. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    19. AH

      But, you know, that's all learned.

    20. AH

      Yeah. Forgive me for saying you're wired different. I think that, you know, when you did f- uh, free solo there were a number of news programs that, like, took advantage of the fact they put you in a brain scanner.

    21. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    22. AH

      You know, this is my field in neuroscience, you know-

    23. AH

      (laughs)

    24. AH

      ... his amygdala might not be activated the same way as other people's. But I would have thought, and I think it's the case now, you, you confirmed, that it's really domain specific. Like, you've done so much climbing, you have so many reps there, that you're familiar with the contingencies. And so it's not that you can't experience fear, it's that you're not placing yourself into truly fearful circumstances climbing. But the fact that public speaking was an issue means that your threat sensors and the amygdala and related circuits work perfectly fine.

    25. AH

      With that particular, like, scanning in the fMRI, you know, they show you a bunch of black-and-white pictures, and it's like whether or not that triggers the fear response. And I was like, "Well, obviously looking at pictures isn't going to trigger my fear response." But I'm like, had they thrown a snake into the fMRI with me, like, that would have triggered my fear response.

    26. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    27. AH

      You know, if there were, like, giant spiders, like, crawling over me, like, that w- probably would too. And so I was like, no, obviously I feel fear. I just, I'm just not afraid of black-and-white photos, you know? (laughs)

    28. AH

      Right.

    29. AH

      I was like-

    30. AH

      That's what they used?

  14. 59:40 – 1:03:49

    Doing What You Love, Life Crisis, Tool: Contemplating Death

    1. AH

    2. AH

      And it sounds a little cliche, but you're doing what you love, you know. It's, it's interesting, I think one of the biggest risks that, um, I think about now, um, as I get older, is the non-daily lethal risk of, you know, grinding it out in a job you don't like, and then, you know, one day you wake up and you're like, wow, there's, there's no time machine. Like, I can't go back and get that vitality and that time.

    3. AH

      Yeah. What should I have been doing? You know.

    4. AH

      Yeah, and, and that's where I think this, this idea of, you know, doing what you love really counts, whether or not you have to live in a van and do nothing else, or whether or not you can also go to school, you know, but doing, doing something that you love very, very much.

    5. AH

      Mm-hmm. Yeah, be- either way you're gonna die.

    6. AH

      Either way you're gonna die.

    7. AH

      It's like, and you may as well die having done a lot of things you're really excited about than die regretting all the things you didn't do.

    8. AH

      Totally.

    9. AH

      I mean, I, I, I think that that actually, that exact mindset really helped inform my whole climbing journey in a way, is like, my father died when, uh, when I was 19. And he died of a heart attack unexpectedly, just freak thing running through an airport, uh, at age 55. And, you know, and I think for a young- for a teenager, that makes an impression, where you're sort of like, oh, like, this could end at any moment. And actually, and both my grandfathers had just died, like, at roughly the same time. So I think for an impressionable, you know, teen, you're sort of like, oh, everybody dies. Like, do you get to do all the things that you want to do before you go? And, and I think my father ... and my father was a community college professor, taught language and, uh ... you know, he ostensibly lived a risk-free life, you know, like, relatively sedentary. I mean, he, he traveled widely. Like, he, he was great. But, but by any risk perception thing, you'd be like, oh, he's a professor. Like, he's, he's, (laughs) he's fine. And yet he still died young, and probably would have preferred to do a lot of other things before he went. I'm sort of like, you know, it's just a reminder that you gotta, you gotta do all those things.

    10. AH

      Yeah, I want to talk to you about your philosophy on death and, and time and kind of life arc, and, and, uh, you've already started. Uh, so thank you f- um, for that because I would say most of my friends who started families young are people who... these are male friends whose dads died young. And so they had this very keen sense of the finite, uh, duration of, of life. And, you know, Steve Jobs talked about this. So like, you're o- you know, very... and he died young. He seemed to have some sense of how long he was gonna live and really wanted to pack things in, and I don't know why that was. He was adopted, so I don't know if he even knew how long his parents lived, et cetera. But barring accident or injury, you know, we don't really know when we're gonna die.

    11. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    12. AH

      But sometimes I think, uh, we get the sense based on relatives. And, you know, I can remember a time in my life when I... uh, of course I knew I was gonna die, but I lived in a way that I just... I felt like I had all the time in the world-

    13. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    14. AH

      ... despite pursuing things. And I think, um, with each passing year, I'm like, "Oh, wow, like, the wall's coming."

    15. AH

      You're like, "It's winding down," yeah. (laughs)

    16. AH

      Yeah, like, "We gotta get, get the show on the road."

    17. AH

      (laughs) Yeah, show on the, show on the road.

    18. AH

      And I've done things I wanted to do, but it's, it's interesting that, um, uh, you know, it's... it does seem that, like, having a parent die has a, has a profound impact on-

    19. AH

      Yeah, galvanizing effect for sure.

    20. AH

      ... on, on where you set that horizon. You realize, like, today is part of an arc that has an end point.

    21. AH

      Yeah.

    22. AH

      And we know that, but we often don't live into that realization.

    23. AH

      Yeah. No, I, I totally agree with that. I mean, and I... you say, "We know that," but I actually think that we don't talk about that enough, you know what I mean? I think most people live with a little too much open e-... 'cause nobody wants to talk about death. Nobody wants to talk about, you know, like, the consequences of, like... 'cause people think it's morbid or it's just not. The thing is, like, we're all gonna friggin' die. You know, it's like, are we gonna be proud of what we did before we died? I don't know. I mean, yeah. We'll see. It's, like, kinda cliche to be like, "Oh, better to die young and, you know, burn brightly," and all that kind of stuff, but, you know, to some extent, I think there's... I think there's a middle ground where you're like, it's better to try hard and, and do things that you're proud of and, you know, either way, you're gonna die.

    24. AH

      I agree. I mean, I think there is something interesting to this 27 effect. You know, so many, like, uh, rock and roll musicians die at 27. Uh-

    25. AH

      Mm-hmm. It's their quarter-life crisis. (laughs)

    26. AH

      Yeah, (laughs) quarter-life crisis. I've never heard of a quarter-life crisis.

    27. AH

      You've never heard of quarter-life?

    28. AH

      No.

    29. AH

      Like, all my friends have gone through a quarter-life crisis.

    30. AH

      Oh, really?

  15. 1:03:49 – 1:11:46

    Childhood, Passion & Choosing Career Path; University

    1. AH

      But I've always been a little bit obsessive. Have you always been a little bit like whatever you're into, you're into? I guess it's been climbing.

    2. AH

      Yeah, yeah.

    3. AH

      Yeah.

    4. AH

      Yeah, I was just lucky to get into climbing when I was 10. So (laughs) this is something that I've just been into forever, but-

    5. AH

      So did you play LEGOs as a kid or do any-

    6. AH

      Yeah, and I was psycho about my LEGOs.

    7. AH

      You were psycho about LEGOs? (laughs)

    8. AH

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, psycho.

    9. AH

      Yeah, yeah.

    10. AH

      Like, I didn't have a bed in my room because I had LEGOs c- covered across the whole floor, basically. I slept in a corner, and I just had LEGOs all over.

Episode duration: 1:49:12

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