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Matt Abrahams on Huberman Lab: How to speak without a script

Building a message roadmap beats memorize-and-recall and frees cognition; improv drills train spontaneous response, and audience focus cuts anxiety.

Andrew HubermanhostMatt Abrahamsguest
Nov 17, 20252h 26mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 3:21

    Matt Abrahams

    1. AH

      Do you ever recommend people memorize speeches?

    2. MA

      Never. The reason memorizing is so bad is it burdens your cognitive load. You've created the right way to say it and you're constantly comparing what you wanted to say to what you're actually saying. So, having a roadmap, having a structure, having some familiarity with some ideas are important. If there's certain words that you really want to get across or certain data, have a note card, read it. I'd rather you do that than put the cognitive burden on yourself of memorizing.

    3. AH

      Several people asked about how best to communicate with people who are not very good at communicating.

    4. MA

      I would encourage people to lead with questions. Draw the other person out. Often, if you can get them talking about something that's important to them or connected to what you want, then you can engage in that conversation. So again, it's pre-work, it's thinking about what's of value. Lead with questions, and then as soon as the person responds, give them space to tell more. My mother-in-law had a black belt in small talk. She was amazing. Uh, she was from the Midwest. Every time she'd fly out to visit, she'd come off the plane with three new best friends. And her secret, and you mentioned this earlier, were three words: "Tell me more." Once somebody answers a question, give them that space to say more, and that really draws them out and gives you some ideas of what's important to them so you can latch on and talk about it more. So, lead with questions, give space for more communication. That's how you draw somebody who might be reticent or not comfortable speaking.

    5. AH

      Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Matt Abrahams from Stanford Graduate School of Business. Matt is an expert in speaking and communication on stage, online, in person, and in all circumstances. During today's episode, we discuss how to become a better communicator. Everything from protocols that work to eliminate ums, how to deal with on-stage fright, how to practice speaking more clearly, and equally important, how to remember important facts and synthesize information that you learn from others. Humans are extremely visual and we are extremely verbal, and what we hear sticks with us, and how things are said matters tremendously too. We all register people's levels of confidence or anxiety when they speak, and that determines what we remember and what we forget, and also what we remember and forget about them. During today's episode, Matt explains tools that have been proven to work that you can practice alone or that you can use in real time to improve your communication skills. He also explains what it really means to communicate authentically. We hear about authenticity all the time, but Matt makes clear exactly what that is, how to tap into it, and how to deliver information in your own unique voice. He also offers great tools for when things go wrong and how to recover from those situations with grace. Matt Abrahams is considered one of the foremost experts in communication, and I'm sure that everyone, women, men, young and old, will benefit from what he teaches today. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Matt Abrahams.

  2. 3:21 – 5:36

    Public Speaking Fear, Status; Speech Delivery

    1. AH

      Matt Abrahams, welcome.

    2. MA

      Thanks, Andrew. I'm thrilled to be here.

    3. AH

      Teach us how to communicate better, but please do it in the context of not just public speaking-

    4. MA

      Yeah.

    5. AH

      ... but one-on-one interactions-

    6. MA

      Yeah.

    7. AH

      ... spontaneous interactions, as well as planned interactions. Basically, I'm asking you to solve a number of problems that people have-

    8. MA

      (laughs)

    9. AH

      ... but I think we often hear that one of the major fears people have is public speaking.

    10. MA

      Yeah.

    11. AH

      But, I think it's highly contextual, right? Like, when we think public speaking, we think, like, being forced out on a stage to talk about a topic we don't know or something. But, what do you think that fear of public speaking is really about? Is it the fear of being shamed, of saying something stupid, of, like, dissolving into a puddle of our own tears on stage?

    12. MA

      (laughs)

    13. AH

      What is it? Because some sense, it's kind of illogical.

    14. MA

      Well, those of us who study this believe it actually has an evolutionary basis. That when our species was hanging around in groups of about 150 people, your relative status meant everything. And I'm not talking about who has the fancy car or who gets the most likes on social media. It's who got access to resources: food, shelter, reproduction. And if you did something that put your status at risk, that could be really bad news for you. So, those of us who study this believe it's ingrained in who we are to be very sensitive to anything that puts our status at risk, and that can be being up in front of a big crowd or talking to my boss about an important issue. All of those put us at risk.

    15. AH

      We often hear that what is being said is perhaps not as important as how it's being said.

    16. MA

      Right.

    17. AH

      The timbre of one's voice, the eye contact, the body language, et cetera. Whenever I hear that, I often think, like, it's kind of a skewed perspective. It's got to be the- the sum total of it all, right?

    18. MA

      Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what you say is really important. If it doesn't make sense, if it's not logical, if it's confusing, that puts you in a bad light. But similarly, how you say it, if you're confident, if you're upright, if you use a- a strong voice, that matters too. So, those of us who do what I do are really intent in helping people not only craft messages that are meaningful, but to deliver them in a way that can actually be connected, authentic, and- and engaging. Both are important.

  3. 5:36 – 9:05

    Speech, Connection, Credibility; Authenticity

    1. AH

      So when I think about online communications and in-person communications where somebody is on a stage-

    2. MA

      Yeah.

    3. AH

      ... and they're, um, selected to give- talk about, uh, something, and the expectation is that they're going to engage us. I like to think of this concept that a friend told me about of, you know, that the first thing we want to know as a- as an audience member is, you know, h- has this person earned the right to have my time? So typically, people will s- talk about their, you know, their titles and their experience and, um, and so how much of the- the fear of public speaking do you think comes from, uh, people's, uh, need to, uh...... kind of explain or justify that they've, like, earned the right to actually take your time and, and, and talk to you. You, 'cause you hear a lot of filling of, of credentials and things like that. Let me just, um, sort of counter that with the possibility that came to me, which is that people don't want to hear that at all, they just want to hear what somebody has to say.

    4. MA

      Right, and I, I tend to agree with that. I, I, I coach my s- my students, the, the, the folks I work with in the corporate world, that what's really important is connection. So if you can show that you have some value to bring by getting people engaged with your topic and showing that there is relevance and salience for them, that's all that really matters. Your credibility, while it informs what you say, doesn't need to be the first thing you say. I'm on a personal mission to stop presentations and meetings from starting with people just giving their credentials, telling the titles of what they're saying. Get us hooked. I tell people it's like an action movie. How does every action movie you've ever seen start? With action. Do something that engages the audience. I'm not saying crash a car and jump out of a plane, but make a provocative statement, ask a question, give some interesting statistics, show what you're saying means for the people, and then you're enable to engage them in a dialogue, and that's where connection happens. So, credentialing is important, but it doesn't happen right away. You demonstrate your credibility. I, I teach my students that there are two types of credibility. There's your career and college credibility, something you'd see in your LinkedIn profile, your resume, and then what I call Costco credibility. You know when you go to Costco, they give you free samples? You try it. You like it. Show people through the questions you ask, through the engagement you have, through the relevance you bring. That's how you build credibility.

    5. AH

      I totally agree. And this raises the issue not only of credibility, but of authenticity. We hear so much about authenticity, authenticity, and I've been thinking a lot about that recently. What is this authenticity thing? Uh, y- you know, in terms of people being able to tap into it, um, or maybe that runs counter to authenticity, like you're not supposed to tap into anything, you're supposed to just be you.

    6. MA

      Yeah, so I, I think it comes down to really understanding what's important to you and what you stand for and coming from that place. So, what does that mean? That means when you're talking about anything, on a big stage or in a one-on-one interaction, understanding where the value is for you and then articulating that in as clear a way as possible. So, just be true to your beliefs, but you have to first understand and take the time to think about what those are. Many of us are nervous or so worried about getting through all our material, we don't focus on coming from a firm, clear, connected place. So, it really has to do with introspection first, and then you convert that into something that's meaningful for the audience. That's what I think authenticity

  4. 9:05 – 13:13

    Monitoring, Self-Judgement; Memorization, Tool: Object Relabeling Exercise

    1. MA

      is.

    2. AH

      Yeah, I feel like part, this, um, authenticity thing that we're exploring also has to do with the person delivering the information, that they're doing it in a way where they are not constantly monitoring what the audience thinks of them. This seems to be, like, central to effective communication, uh, that monitoring for one's performance-

    3. MA

      Right.

    4. AH

      ... and other people's perception of them-

    5. MA

      Yeah.

    6. AH

      ... trying to get a running score of how well they're doing is-

    7. MA

      Right.

    8. AH

      ... really runs counter to effective communication.

    9. MA

      Absolutely, 100%. It is... The, the more we are in our heads judging and evaluating, the more difficult it is to be present and connected to somebody. I do this activity in my class on the first day that, that really shows how in our heads we can get. I borrowed this from improvisation. I have my students stand up, and for 15 seconds, they just point at different objects in the room, and the only rule is to call it something that it is not. So, you point at the ceiling and you call it a car. You point at the floor and you call it a calculator. And for 15 seconds, this is very challenging. I had a student once who's pointing at a chair. Nothing's coming out of his mouth. And I go up, I say, "What's going on?" He said, "I'm not being wrong enough." I gave no rubric, no, no requirements. I said, "Tell me more." He said, "Well, I was going to call the chair a cat, but a cat has four legs and a chair has four legs. I'm not being wrong enough. Sometimes a cat sits on a chair. I'm not being wrong enough." We are all on this continuum he's on, judging and evaluating. He's clearly several standard deviations away from most of us, but we all carry around this judgment in our head, and what it does is it locks us internally and not allows us to be external. So, you're absolutely right. And when I'm focused on judging what I'm saying, I'm using precious cognitive bandwidth that I could be spending on making sure you clearly understand my message. This is why memorizing what you're trying to say works against you, because that precious cognitive bandwidth, trying to get it right gets in the way of actually doing it. So, we need to train ourselves to understand that the magic of communication happens in the moment and not what's happening in your head before.

    10. AH

      What a great exercise. Uh, do you recommend people do that on their own if they're trying to-

    11. MA

      As long as they're not driving. (laughs) And you know who's really good at it is-

    12. AH

      That's not a red light, that's a green light.

    13. MA

      (laughs) Yeah, exactly.

    14. AH

      Yeah, exactly.

    15. MA

      Um, it's a wonder children are fantastic at this.

    16. AH

      Mm.

    17. MA

      Because they don't have the inhibitions that, that, that we do. But anything that gets you to disrupt the judgment and evaluation that you do can be really helpful.

    18. AH

      Mm.

    19. MA

      So, if just a, a simple game like that, other improv activities as well, it just gets you to see, here's what I'm doing, this is my pattern, my habit. It, it identifies the heuristics that we carry around that actually get in the way of our communication.

    20. AH

      Oh, that's so cool. I sometimes like to play the game that I played when I was a kid where y- you look at clouds and you try and-

    21. MA

      Yeah.

    22. AH

      ... see what they look like, and it's so much fun. And it's a very childlike game-

    23. MA

      Right.

    24. AH

      ... but it forces you to see, uh, clouds differently, um...... i- the contours-

    25. MA

      Yeah.

    26. AH

      ... uh, become certain things. And then, um, it's interesting, it almost always, if you do this with somebody else, it's kind of fun to do, um, it gives way to narration-

    27. MA

      Yeah.

    28. AH

      ... where it looks like one cloud is eating another cloud.

    29. MA

      (laughs)

    30. AH

      You start creating this narrative-

  5. 13:13 – 15:40

    Sponsors: Eight Sleep & BetterHelp

    1. MA

    2. AH

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  6. 15:40 – 19:18

    Cadence & Speech Patterns; Lego Manuals, Storytelling & Emotion

    1. AH

      When I do public lectures-

    2. MA

      Yeah.

    3. AH

      ... like when, or when we do live events, sometimes, um, I do some crowd work where I'll just cold-call for ... I usually ask for a body part.

    4. MA

      (laughs)

    5. AH

      And I'm always afraid of, like, what body parts are you going to ...

    6. MA

      (laughs) That's a brave cold-call.

    7. AH

      And then I a- and, and then I try and weave it to some real neuroscience or-

    8. MA

      Yeah.

    9. AH

      ... health-related fact.

    10. MA

      Yeah.

    11. AH

      And it, and it's always a lot of fun, but I, I do it as a way to break up the, um-

    12. MA

      Yeah.

    13. AH

      ... the cadence.

    14. MA

      Uh-huh.

    15. AH

      Sometimes I think the difficulty in public speaking comes from the fact that as we go out there, we, we've done some preparation.

    16. MA

      Right.

    17. AH

      Maybe, maybe we've memorized it. I, I typically don't. But, we have some sense of what we're going to say, beginning, middle, end, et cetera-

    18. MA

      Right.

    19. AH

      ... uh, what's on the slides. But that the, the cadence can become so regular-

    20. MA

      Yeah.

    21. AH

      ... that we lose people.

    22. MA

      Yeah.

    23. AH

      And breaking up that cadence can be helpful, I think. Um, and when I step back from public speaking experiences, both as a ... the speaker, but also as an audience member, I feel like there's a, almost a songlike nature to a, a talk-

    24. MA

      Mm-hmm. Right.

    25. AH

      ... where it has an opener, and then it has a, a, you know, a quicker pace, and then it r- repeats itself, and it's got some melodies and rhythms. And I like to think that really effective podcasting-

    26. MA

      Yeah.

    27. AH

      ... not, not to make ourselves conscious of, uh-

    28. MA

      (laughs)

    29. AH

      ... of what we're doing here, has some of the same.

    30. MA

      Yeah. I want to tell you a story that relates to that, but I, I ... At some point, I'm going to shout out the word earlobe, and I want to hear how you respond to that (laughs) . 'Cause I, I just ... I l- I, I, I'm amazed that you get up and ask people to call out body parts. Uh, I did some work, uh, when I was researching my recent book, where I interviewed the gentleman who's in charge of all LEGO manuals. Uh, I don't know if you've ever built LEGO or not, but th-

  7. 19:18 – 23:19

    Visual vs Audio Content, Length, Detail

    1. AH

      we hear a lot about the fact that, uh, people want short-form content.

    2. MA

      Yes.

    3. AH

      And yet people, I can attest, listen to long-form podcasts, and are still doing that.

    4. MA

      Yeah.

    5. AH

      So I have a theory that's not based on any data that I've seen, that people need a lot of, um, updating of visual information nowadays. You know, they're, they're scrolling Instagram-

    6. MA

      Yeah.

    7. AH

      ... they're scrolling TikTok, they're, uh, they're updating, "Ah, I don't like this YouTube video," switching to another one very fast. But with audio, long-form, continuous, um, presence of the same voices or voice works, it's very soothing, and we get into a groove with that. And I actually played this game. I, um, decided to just listen to the audio coming through on Instagram Reels and just flipped them.

    8. MA

      Huh.

    9. AH

      One to... And, and by the fifth one, it was incredibly jarring.

    10. MA

      Yeah.

    11. AH

      It's really disruptive. It's like, "Who are these voices, now these voices?" But the visuals are very easy to track.

    12. MA

      Interesting. Yeah, yeah.

    13. AH

      And so, I think that it's correct that we can really update and we like the novelty of, of new visual information, but that audio content needs to school out over long periods of time, or else it actually is, is quite aversive to us.

    14. MA

      Yeah, I heard somebody once say that the difference of all the senses, aud- uh, our auditory sense requires us to slow down more than anything else to, to actually pay attention. And I think there's something about that slowing down that makes us more engaged with audio. Uh, and, and I think you're right. I mean, when you, uh... Uh, my teaching has... I'm curious if your teaching has had to change. Uh, as I teach younger generations of students, I have to change things up so much more frequently. Somebody who took my class 15 years ago would be, "Oh my goodness, what are you doing?" But in a, in a two-hour class, I change things up like seven times. So we go from a mini-lecture, to watching a video, to partnering with somebody, just to keep the students engaged, because that's where they're at. They, they need that switching to help engage.

    15. AH

      Well, I teach medical students neural development and a few other things-

    16. MA

      Yeah.

    17. AH

      ... and I use slides heavily there-

    18. MA

      Right.

    19. AH

      ... but what I've realized over the years is that if there's too much information on a slide-

    20. MA

      Yeah.

    21. AH

      ... they're not going to hear anything I say. And then if you switch a slide-

    22. MA

      Yeah.

    23. AH

      ... people... As somebody who studied vision, this makes perfect sense. People will orient towards the new visual information, and they won't hear what you're saying in the transition.

    24. MA

      Yeah.

    25. AH

      The other thing that I'm really obsessed by, uh, because I got my start teaching online, uh, on Instagram by doing drawings-

    26. MA

      Mm-hmm.

    27. AH

      ... of different aspects of the nervous system and talking about them, is that there's this sweet spot when you're going to teach something with a visual, I've realized. That, for instance, if I were to draw, um, an area of the brain or a brain circuit accurately with a lot of detailed information, it's too much.

    28. MA

      Right.

    29. AH

      It, it, they... There's less learning in that case, as opposed to sparser representation of the key elements. But if I go to ball-and-stick model and just triangles and, and circles, it doesn't work as well. So there's this sweet spot where there's just enough detail, but not too much, where people can hear what you're saying, see the labels, see the stuff in it-

    30. MA

      Right.

  8. 23:19 – 24:25

    Understanding Audience's Needs, Tool: Recon – Reflection – Research

    1. MA

      I think you're hitting on what's, uh, an essential element of any effective communication, which is really understanding your audience and their needs. You know, so many of us define success in communication as just getting the information out. "I'm successful because what I had in mind is now out."

    2. AH

      I've made that mistake many times. (laughs)

    3. MA

      Yeah. Uh, right. It's, it's more about, "What do I need to say so that my audience understands it better?" It's not about what I want. It's about what you need. So I have to do reconnaissance, reflection, and research to really think about how best to craft my message, be it a drawing or an important point I'm trying to make, uh, through my words. You really have to think about your audience, and most people don't. Most people are just so worried about getting the content out, they don't think about how it lands. Success is if your audience takes what you've said and, and they're able to do something with it and understand it. You know, the F word of all communication is fidelity. It's about accuracy and clarity of transmitting ideas. And if you're not in sync with what your audience needs, then you're in trouble. Most of us create one message and just deliver it to multiple audiences and think we've been successful because we got it out. That's the wrong way to think about it.

  9. 24:25 – 27:33

    Judgement in Communication, Heuristics

    1. AH

      So, i- if you're willing, could we just take a couple of minutes and explore some of the tools and practices-

    2. MA

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AH

      ... and then go back to some of the theory, and then-

    4. MA

      Absolutely.

    5. AH

      ... back to the tools and practices? Um, I love this, uh, exercise you said of, like, I'll point to the mug and I'll just-

    6. MA

      Yeah, shout the wrong name.

    7. AH

      ... try not to judge myself and I'll say, "Bulldog," 'cause that just is kinda like where you know-

    8. MA

      (laughs)

    9. AH

      I'm like, uh, Bart Simpson doing the Rorschach test, butterfinger, butterfinger-

    10. MA

      (laughs)

    11. AH

      ... like, "Bulldog, Bulldog, Bulldog." But, um, w- what is that exercise good for, and when could and should somebody apply it on their own or with other people?

    12. MA

      That's an exercise that I use, uh, for, for two reasons. I use it to show that we have a tremendous amount of judgment that we make when we communicate. Because if you ask somebody, "Why is it so hard to call something, something it's, uh, it's not?" They'll say, "Well, that's not what I'm used to," or, "I want it to be better than, than something else I was thinking." The other thing that I use it for is to help elucidate how we heuristically think in these challenging situations. So, invariably, when I do this in my class, I'll say, "D- were you using any tools to help you figure out what to say?" And people say, "Yeah, I went, uh, in the category of colors," or in your case, the cate- category of, of species of, of dog. These are heuristics. Our brain is trying to help us. And heuristics are very important. If we didn't have them, we wouldn't be able to make decisions. But sometimes a heuristic locks you into a way of thinking. So, let's imagine you and I come out of a meeting and you turn to me and you say, "Hey, Matt, how do you think that meeting went?" I immediately say, "Andrew wants feedback," and I can itemize all the things that went wrong or all the things we could have done better. But had I been really listening, not locked into that heuristic of feedback, I might have noticed that you were looking down. You were speaking more slowly and softly than usual.

    13. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    14. MA

      Maybe what you wanted in that moment was not feedback, but what you wanted was support 'cause you knew the meeting went bad. So, if I lock into a heuristic too soon and not understand that I locked into that heuristic, I might take our communication in a direction that doesn't productive or could be harmful. The situation I just described to you actually happened to me with a colleague, and I itemized all the things that we did wrong. It took me six months to repair that relationship because he didn't want to hear what went wrong. He knew. He wanted me to give some support in that moment. So, that exercise is to help us understand that we do a lot of judging that we don't need to do, and that we have these heuristics or patterns that we get into that don't allow us to be present and respond to what's needed.

    15. AH

      Could you define heuristic? I, I believe I know what it means-

    16. MA

      Yeah. So-

    17. AH

      But it sounds like, uh, you mentioned heuristic and pattern and-

    18. MA

      Yeah.

    19. AH

      ... is kind of synonymous. But, um, but maybe just define it for people.

    20. MA

      So, to me, a heuristic is a tool that we use, often unconsciously, to help us reduce the uncertainty in a particular situation. So, for example, uh, imagine I'm in the grocery store and I'm trying to pick out, um, the best, uh, tomato sauce or the best ketchup. I might use a heuristic of, which is the cheapest? How many offerings from one brand are there? That must be the best brand to buy. So, these are mental shortcuts that we use to help us in uncertain situations.

  10. 27:33 – 31:34

    Questions, Responding to the Audience, Tool: Structuring Information

    1. MA

    2. AH

      I'm recalling a story where, when I was a junior professor, meaning before I had tenure, my first graduate student, who's now a phenomenal professor in her own lab at University of... at the University of Utah, excuse me. Um, we were in my office and we were talking about something related to her first manuscript, and I went on this long description of what we would need to do with the analysis and this and that. And she sat very quietly, and then she said to me, "Could you be more specific?" And I thought, "Oh my goodness, I just spoke for like five minutes." And I think what she's asking is, "What in the world are you saying?"

    3. MA

      Right.

    4. AH

      Which is probably what she was asking. She's probably-

    5. MA

      Mm-hmm.

    6. AH

      ... gonna chuckle when she hears this.

    7. MA

      Right.

    8. AH

      Um, and she had this am- amazing way of asking questions like that.

    9. MA

      Mm-hmm.

    10. AH

      She would say, for instance, um, uh, "Tell me more."

    11. MA

      Yeah.

    12. AH

      Or, "What exactly do you want me to do for these experiments in the next couple of weeks?"

    13. MA

      Right.

    14. AH

      And then she'd usually tell me a better idea, as-

    15. MA

      (laughs)

    16. AH

      ... as all great graduate students do.

    17. MA

      Right.

    18. AH

      Um, but I feel like that's a, a bit of this. It's, it's that I was coming to it from the perspective of, um, kind of a fluency of, of, uh, this sort of expectation that we both were on the same page, and we weren't.

    19. MA

      Right, right.

    20. AH

      Not because I was the professor and she was the student. Actually, she was closer to the data than I was because she collected the data.

    21. MA

      Right.

    22. AH

      But, um, that's the sort of interaction that one-on-one you can catch and you can course correct.

    23. MA

      Right.

    24. AH

      But in public speaking, oftentimes people just get offstage and they either realize it went poorly or they get feedback that it went poorly. My postdoc advisor once said, "If you get questions after a talk, it means you did well."

    25. MA

      Yeah, absolutely.

    26. AH

      "If you don't, it means they just want to get rid of you and have you go off stage."

    27. MA

      Right.

    28. AH

      So (laughs) so now when I get questions after a talk, I'm like, "Okay, excellent." Like-

    29. MA

      Yeah.

    30. AH

      ... that means you engaged people. They have questions. Um, so take note of that. If people have questions, it's very likely you, you, you bullseyed it.

  11. 31:34 – 39:09

    Feedback & Observation; Tools: Three-Pass Speech Review; Communication Reflection Journal

    1. MA

    2. AH

      Yeah. Across those first five years of having my lab, I learned that the best way to interact with students and post-docs, the most effective way, was to have them stand at the whiteboard in my office-

    3. MA

      Yeah.

    4. AH

      ... and write things down as we talked about a project. And the things they would write down, we would eventually cross some things out, maybe make some edits, but those were the, as we called, the do-outs that they were gonna take to the next phase of experiments.

    5. MA

      Uh-huh.

    6. AH

      By putting them in control of what the critical information was-

    7. MA

      Right.

    8. AH

      ... they could also stop me and say, like, "What would happen here?" So, that's a very dynamic interaction. It's not a typical lecture-type interaction. But I've found that that works really well in other types of situations too.

    9. MA

      Yeah.

    10. AH

      Where the person, it can take notes, can ask questions about things that were unclear, but c- where I get a strong sense of what their takeaway was-

    11. MA

      Mm-hmm.

    12. AH

      ... and also where I fell short, or perhaps, in rare cases, succeeded in communicating (laughs) -

    13. MA

      Yeah, right.

    14. AH

      ... what I was trying to communicate.

    15. MA

      Right. Uh, I love that you are taking the time to have those interactions where there's the, you get feedback in real time. And there are things you can build into more formal or bigger types of communication situations. I can take polls. I can have people partner or pair with each other and share some information back. There are, uh, uh, virtual tools allow you to, to do lots of things. People can give you reactions as you're, as you're communicating. There are ways to get feedback in real time that allow you to adjust and adapt. But one, you have to build in those opportunities in the structure, and two, you have to be present enough to pay attention to what's going on.

    16. AH

      Do you recommend people tape themselves giving lectures and then review those videos?

    17. MA

      Absolutely. I, I make all of my students, as part of the work that they do, they have... Anytime they do a public presentation, it could be a panel simulation, a meeting simulation, a speech, they digitally record themselves, and they have to watch it three times. Once with sound only, no video, once with video only, no sound, and then once both together. And anybody who does this will notice different things, both positive and negative. I tell everybody it's like going to the dentist. Nobody likes going, but everybody's really glad they've been because you, you see so much and you learn. And I, I know many great communication teachers. The best teacher is watching yourself communicate. I assume you've watched yourself. Have you learned things when you watch what you see? (laughs)

    18. AH

      Yeah. I... Well, uh, yeah. I, I will listen to podcasts with guests-

    19. MA

      Yes.

    20. AH

      ... and I do listen to solos to try and see where I can improve.

    21. MA

      Right.

    22. AH

      Uh, I have one or two people who, uh, I seek feedback from.

    23. MA

      Mm-hmm.

    24. AH

      And I have always done my best to implement that feedback.

    25. MA

      Yeah.

    26. AH

      Um, I mean, uh, I'm not gonna share what some of the, the things were-

    27. MA

      Sure.

    28. AH

      ... because some of it-

    29. MA

      No.

    30. AH

      ... some of it was subtle, but, but, um, and I never would have observed in myself, and then turned out to be very useful.

  12. 39:09 – 42:54

    Movement, Stage Fright, Content Expertise

    1. AH

      Long ago, I realized that when there's a certain amount of energy in the body, what we call autonomic arousal, sympathetic tone, whatever, you know, people say fight or flight, but when there's a lot of energy in the body, which is often the case when we're going to give a talk or we're in a novel situation, doesn't have to be on stage, that allowing oneself to physically move, to walk, to pace-

    2. MA

      Yes.

    3. AH

      ... to gesticulate helps, uh, dispel some of that energy, um, and makes it a lot easier to deliver the information than where one to just sit really still and try and, you know, funnel all that through the-

    4. MA

      Right.

    5. AH

      ... one's mouth. Right? When we're calm, wh- you know, and relaxed, we can sit back and just move our mouth and our eyes a little bit and our head a little bit.

    6. MA

      Yeah.

    7. AH

      So, I've seen that some of the best public speakers know when to pace, know when to stand rigid. And it may be rehearsed, I don't know, but they're, they're not, um, running against their natural tendency in those moments. Um, and, like, there's a, there's one neuroscientist, he's actually been a guest on this podcast before, I won't embarrass him by saying who it is, and he has so much mental vigor and energy. And the first time I saw him give a talk was actually at Harvard Medical School for the 50th anniversary of a foundation. And he got up there and he grabbed the microphone and he gave the talk like this, and I thought to myself, "He's gonna eat the microphone."

    8. MA

      (laughs)

    9. AH

      "He's gonna eat the microphone." And he gave the most spectacular talk, and he was funneling all his energy into that microphone.

    10. MA

      Right.

    11. AH

      And I realized, this guy isn't moving at all, but I l- I thought it was totally reasonable that some point he was just gonna take a huge chunk out of the thing.

    12. MA

      (laughs)

    13. AH

      And, uh, and of course he didn't.

    14. MA

      (laughs)

    15. AH

      I thought, "Wow, he brought us all to that one location."

    16. MA

      Yeah.

    17. AH

      Now, clearly he's-

    18. MA

      Right.

    19. AH

      ... a very experienced and skilled communicator-

    20. MA

      Right.

    21. AH

      ... but he's also an expert in that topic. And this is the thing that I always would remind my students and post-docs who had some understandable stage fright-

    22. MA

      Right.

    23. AH

      ... which is, there's no way that you aren't among at least the top three people in the room in terms of the knowledge of what you're talking about.

    24. MA

      Yes.

    25. AH

      Right? Like, probably n- have the most knowledge, but maybe someone else is an expert there, which can be a little scary-

    26. MA

      Mm-hmm.

    27. AH

      ... but at least you're... then you're sort of their peer. So, to remind oneself that in most situations where we're public speaking, you're among the top experts in that. You spent the most time with the material, at least compared to the audience.

    28. MA

      Well, and I would add to that, that often when we're, we're in those situations, the audience actually wants to learn from us. They're there because they want to take value from us.

    29. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    30. MA

      They're not there to critique and judge and evaluate, although that can happen. People don't like watching people fail and flail. We, we want to get some value. And if you remind yourself that I have value to bring and the audience wants that value, that can reduce some of the temperature of that. With regard to movement, I think movement is great, you just don't want it to be distracting.

  13. 42:54 – 45:34

    Sponsors: AGZ by AG1 & Joovv

    1. MA

      (laughs)

    2. AH

      We've known for a long time that there are things that we can do to improve our sleep, and that includes things that we can take, things like magnesium threonate, theanine, chamomile extract, and glycine, along with lesser-known things like saffron and valerian root. These are all clinically supported ingredients that can help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up feeling more refreshed. I'm excited to share that our longtime sponsor, AG1, just created a new product called AGZ, a nightly drink designed to help you get better sleep and have you wake up feeling super refreshed. Over the past few years, I've worked with the team at AG1 to help create this new AGZ formula. It has the best sleep-supporting compounds in exactly the right ratios in one easy-to-drink mix. This removes all the complexity of trying to forage the vast landscape of supplements focused on sleep and figuring out the right dosages and which ones to take for you. AGZ is, to my knowledge, the most comprehensive sleep supplement on the market. I take it 30 to 60 minutes before sleep, it's delicious by the way, and it dramatically increases both the quality and the depth of my sleep. I know that both from my subjective experience of my sleep and because I track my sleep. I'm excited for everyone to try this new AGZ formulation and to enjoy the benefits of better sleep. AGZ is available in chocolate, chocolate mint, and mixed berry flavors. And as I mentioned before, they're all extremely delicious. My favorite of the three has to be, I think, chocolate mint, but I really like them all. If you would like to try AGZ, go to drinkagz.com/huberman to get a special offer. Again, that's drinkagz.com/huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by Joovv. Joovv makes medical grade red light therapy devices. Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast, it is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology. Now, in addition to sunlight, red light and near infrared light sources have been shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health, including faster muscle recovery, improved skin health and wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, even mitochondrial function, and improving vision itself. What sets Joovv lights apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy device is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning specific wavelengths of red light and near infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations. Personally, I use the Joovv whole body panel about three to four times a week, and I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel. Right now, Joovv is having their biggest sale of the year. From now through December 1st, 2025, you can save up to $1,000 on select Joovv devices during their Black Friday sale. Just go to joovv.com/huberman. That's J-0-O-V-V.com/huberman. Some exclusions apply.

  14. 45:34 – 50:32

    Multi-Generation Communication Styles & Trust; Curiosity, Conversation Turns

    1. AH

      I wonder if you've observed in the classroom that social media and other new-newer forms of content are changing people's expectation of how engaging something should be, because the on-ramp to social media is a very fast one.

    2. MA

      Yeah.

    3. AH

      I've never observed anything that brings people to focus so quickly-

    4. MA

      Yeah.

    5. AH

      ... unless it's, um, seeing something really disturbing-

    6. MA

      Yeah.

    7. AH

      ... which nobody wants to see. But, you know, if you, if you suddenly see two cars crash, you know, you're completely focused on that.

    8. MA

      Yeah.

    9. AH

      You're not gonna go back to what you were doing.

    10. MA

      Right.

    11. AH

      But setting aside bad events, traumatic events, social media has an incredibly smooth and fast on-ramp to a focal point, which has got you in the box.

    12. MA

      Yeah.

    13. AH

      Uh, a book doesn't typically do that for people.

    14. MA

      Right.

    15. AH

      Uh, so what's happening now, um, in terms of what you observe with people's expec- audiences' expectation of how engaging something needs to be?

    16. MA

      Yeah. So I, I see this play out in a couple ways. One, when you, when you think about a multi-generational workforce or a place where multi-generations are together, you know, people of our vintage, although I'm older than you are, uh, expect relationships and communication to unfold in a certain way. And I think younger generations expect things to be quicker and more transactional. And when we come together, that can breed misunderstanding and sometimes conflict. So I, I see it play out there, and I find it really interesting, and I try to coach the, the students I have that they have to be appreciative of the ways in which people connect and the ways in which people expect information to come in. You know, if, if you're just gonna keep texting me things and I actually want you to pick up the phone so I can hear it in your own voice, that's gonna cause some, some issues. So we have to appreciate that others have different ways of taking in information. I find that many of the younger students that I communicate with, it's hard for them to do some of the initial work that we have to do in relationship building, trust building, uh, just because they, they expect things or are used to things happening really fast. And a lot of communication, a lot of connection, at least at first, takes time. So it's helping people appreciate the time spent upfront can lead to the exciting and in-depth connection that comes later. So it is, it is changing for sure.

    17. AH

      I was trying to think before our conversation what would be the, the one piece of advice to give people so that they are, um, more at ease with communicating in novel environments, on stage or off stage. And what popped to mind for me was, um, be friendly with people.

    18. MA

      Mm-hmm.

    19. AH

      I'm naturally pretty friendly.

    20. MA

      Yeah.

    21. AH

      Like if I'm getting a coffee, I'll be like, "How's your day going?"

    22. MA

      Right.

    23. AH

      Or like, I'll, I will ask that, and I'm genuinely curious, "How's your day going?"

    24. MA

      Yeah.

    25. AH

      Now, it's rare that somebody says like, "Today sucks." Occasionally they do.

    26. MA

      Right. (laughs)

    27. AH

      Um, uh, usually they say, "Oh, it's pretty good. Like, how are you doing?" But in an Uber, for instance-

    28. MA

      (laughs)

    29. AH

      ... I often find myself in conversation with people. Like, conversation is pretty fluid for me.

    30. MA

      Right.

  15. 50:32 – 53:21

    Linear vs Non-Linear Speech, Tool: Tour Guide Expectations

    1. AH

      I'm curious about linearity versus non-linearities-

    2. MA

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AH

      ... in storytelling.

    4. MA

      Yeah.

    5. AH

      Uh, you know, some people have a style where they can spin a lot of plates simultaneously.

    6. MA

      Mm-hmm.

    7. AH

      As, as I imagine it. You know, they, they can start one thread, maybe open up a couple other threads. Some people have a very linear style. Um, some people won't reference things they said earlier. Some people will constantly reference things they said earlier. I suppose it depends, but in general, if one is trying to communicate information, what's best from the standpoint of, of people learning the information?

    8. MA

      So as a teacher, as somebody who's trying to convey information that's important to people, I believe a linear approach that clearly lays out the foundations and builds is probably best to help people really understand. Often, in educating, you're layering, you're scaffolding, and that leads to a linear approach.

    9. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    10. MA

      That said, the more spurious, uh, approach, the, the approach that has lots of different avenues can be much more engaging and can also be successful. And, and it really doesn't have to be either/or. I think you can have a high-level linear view that you're taking your audience on that journey. But at different points, you can branch off and, and share some interesting information. You know, I see being a good speaker as like being a good tour guide. And I actually was a tour guide at one point in my life. A good tour guide does a really nice job of setting expectations of where you're going. Most people won't go on a tour if they don't know where they're going. If I showed up and said, "I'm your tour guide. Let's go," you might say, "Eh, I don't know where we're going." But if I say, "Hey, we're gonna do this and this, and we're not gonna do that," then you can relax and feel comfortable and come with me. And I let you know at each point where we're moving to the next place. But along the way, we can meander, we can wander, we can go check out some things and come back. So as long as people have directionality and everything fits as a, a larger narrative, I think you can play with either of these. But when it comes to strict education, I think we've got good evidence that a linear approach that scaffolds is really what's most helpful.

    11. AH

      Do you think that if people want to get better at communication, they should practice being a tour guide?

    12. MA

      I think adopting that, that, that mindset that, "Hey," taking you through my material, "I'm like a tour guide." How would a tour guide explain this? They would introduce at the beginning, set expectations. They'd make sure that you understand why we're moving from one place to the next. And when you're done, they really want you to take something away of value. I mean, most tour, tours end up in the gift shop, right? Your gift to your audience is something they can take away and do something with. So I think using that analogy, seeing what your job is through those, that lens can be really helpful.

  16. 53:21 – 1:01:43

    Develop Communication Skills, Audience Size, Tools: Distancing; Practicing

    1. MA

    2. AH

      I'm remembering back to grade school where we were asked to bring an object that was really important-

    3. MA

      Yeah.

    4. AH

      ... to us, and then kids would c- get up in front of the classroom.

    5. MA

      Yeah. Yeah.

    6. AH

      And of course, what a, what a beautiful exercise for kids to-

    7. MA

      Yeah.

    8. AH

      ... partake in because of course, they know more about that object than anybody. But I remember seeing or hearing different, um, styles.

    9. MA

      Yeah.

    10. AH

      Uh, some people get in there and be like, "This is my," whatever.

    11. MA

      Yeah.

    12. AH

      You know, "My Transformer," and they're really out there with their, "This is my, uh, you know, my goldfish." (laughs) Goldfish. Um, and then occasionally, n- not so occasionally, you get this kid that would say, "Well, this is my pen." And then, and then-

    13. MA

      Yeah.

    14. AH

      ... you're like, and you're like, "Speak up." And then, and, and they're just not comfortable-

    15. MA

      Right.

    16. AH

      ... sharing their-

    17. MA

      Right.

    18. AH

      ... their clearly intimate knowledge about this object and why it's important.

    19. MA

      Right.

    20. AH

      They... I mean, you could just tell, like they're, they're closed up.

    21. MA

      Right.

    22. AH

      And so you tell them to speak louder and then p- they'd speak louder. But, um, I think that's a lot of people.

    23. MA

      Right.

    24. AH

      Like they're just not comfortable projecting their thoughts out into the room.

    25. MA

      Right.

    26. AH

      Uh, what is the, quote-unquote, solution? Or, or how do we make space for these people? I'm, I'm not saying this for, like, politically correct reasons.

    27. MA

      Mm-hmm.

    28. AH

      But I wholeheartedly believe that these people harbor tons of useful knowledge.

    29. MA

      Oh, absolutely.

    30. AH

      Maybe they want to get that knowledge out, but maybe that's just not the medium for them.

  17. 1:01:43 – 1:09:36

    Tool: Improv & Agility; Great Communication Examples; Divided Attention

    1. MA

    2. AH

      Do you think that if somebody wants to get more fluid at, uh, presenting information that they could, uh, f- find a- a friend who would select an object in the room for them at random, and then they'd have to give a- a brief, uh, improv talk about it or something like that, just to get comfortable-

    3. MA

      Yeah, yeah.

    4. AH

      ... taking on topics with some level of fluidity?

    5. MA

      Yeah, I think improvisation is- is a wonderful way to get better at communicating. Because improv isn't about being funny. Improv is about being in the moment and responding to what's needed. And so, yeah, doing anything like that. You don't even need a friend. You can just look at an object and start talking about it, describe it, share a story about it. All of that could be useful. You could flip open a book and pick a word and then just talk about what that word means. Th- those are some of those agility drills that can help you be better when you're put on the spot. And- and it builds a confidence too. It's like, "I can do that. If I can do this when, uh, I pick a random word, I can do this when somebody asks me a question that I know a lot about the topic on." So, it's a way of building confidence and helping with that in-the-moment processing.

    6. AH

      I feel like people over the age of 15 are not terribly comfortable, uh, embracing these theater-like games-

    7. MA

      Yeah.

    8. AH

      ... because it seems childlike.

    9. MA

      Mm-hmm.

    10. AH

      But it's actually that childlike level of curiosity and communication that you're seeking when you're- are going to be an effective communicator.

    11. MA

      Yeah. Uh, a class I co-teach at Stanford, uh, through their continuing studies program is called, "Improvisationally Speaking." I partner with a gentleman named Adam Tobin, who's an excellent improviser. And together, I bring the communication piece. And it's a way of giving people baby steps and permission to do some of these improv games, because we directly link a particular improv activity to a specific communication need. And when people see that, they open up. Uh, at Stanford's Graduate School of Business, there are several courses that bring in improvisational ideas into very serious things, how- how to be a manager and a- adapt to management skills through improv, how to demonstrate your status and power through some of the things that- that improv teaches. So, taking improv, or at least understanding some of those principles certainly can help.

    12. AH

      When I think about the truly archival important information on the internet-

    13. MA

      Yeah.

    14. AH

      ... very few things break through.

    15. MA

      Mm-hmm.

    16. AH

      I sometimes play this game. I think, like, "What is, like, true legacy content on the internet?" And one of the things that breaks through is Steve Jobs'-

    17. MA

      Yeah.

    18. AH

      ... uh, 2015, I think it was-

    19. MA

      Yeah.

    20. AH

      ... uh, commencement speech at Stanford. The "I Have a Dream" speech-

    21. MA

      Yeah.

    22. AH

      ... obviously, Martin Luther King. Uh, JFK said some, um, some pretty important things.

    23. MA

      Yes, yes.

    24. AH

      Um, those were written speeches.

    25. MA

      Yeah.

    26. AH

      And they're reading from a script, and they include story in many cases.

    27. MA

      Mm-hmm.

    28. AH

      So, it fits, and yet, like, the Jobs' speech, which I've listened to many times, um, he's reading from a piece of paper. So, it runs counter to a lot of what we're talking about-

    29. MA

      Right.

    30. AH

      ... and yet it's extremely effective communication. Why do you think those examples, let's just say JFK, Martin Luther King, Steve Jobs, I should probably include a few others, but those are the ones that come to mind-

  18. 1:09:36 – 1:11:00

    One-on-One Communication vs Public Speaking

    1. AH

      Um, do you think that people being good at one-on-one conversation makes them better at onstage conversation? Or do you think these are two completely different skills?

    2. MA

      I get this question a lot. I think, I think there's a Venn diagram. There are people who are able to connect one-on-one in a way that's hard to do on a stage. A lot of it has to do with what academics call immediacy. I'm present with you. I'm focused. We're, we're engaged in that way. And that doesn't necessarily translate on a big stage or in a meeting. But some of the skills do translate. It's having structure, having focus in terms of a goal for what you're saying, being able to start in a way that's compelling. So it's a Venn diagram, and there are people who can command a presence on a stage, and you put them in front of one person and they don't know how to, to respond. So i- in terms of messaging, I think there's a lot of overlap. In terms of presence, I think it really varies a lot. And that... But I believe everybody can learn to be better at communication. I wouldn't do what I do if I didn't believe that. So if you are good interpersonally, but not so good in front of a large group, use the skills you have. Find a path to hone and develop those skills in a different environment. And similarly, if you're good on a big stage, let's take what you do there and find avenues to help you interpersonally. But, uh, they're, they're not always the same. And there are some people who are good at both.

  19. 1:11:00 – 1:12:00

    Sponsor: Mateína

    1. AH

      I'm excited to share that Mateena, the yerba mate drink I helped create, is now available at Whole Foods stores nationwide. Longtime listeners of this podcast know that yerba mate is my preferred caffeine source. It provides smooth energy without giving you the jitters, and it has a lot of other potential benefits, including helping to regulate your blood sugar, improving digestion, mild appetite suppression, and much more. Mateena is my absolute favorite of all the yerba mate brands out there, and I've tried them all. Given my love for Mateena, I decided to become a part owner in the business, and I helped them create their new line of products, which are all entirely zero-sugar. These zero-sugar cold brew Mateena flavors are fantastic. I drink at least three cans of them every single day. You'll often see them on the table during my podcast recordings. I absolutely love the product, and I'm proud to now have it sold at Whole Foods. So check out Mateena at Whole Foods stores nationwide. It's cold brewed with the absolute best ingredients, it has zero sugar, and it tastes amazing. And if you don't have a Whole Foods near you, you can also buy it online at DrinkMateena.com.

  20. 1:12:00 – 1:16:30

    Neurodiversity, Introverts, Communication Styles; Writing & Editing

    1. AH

      These days, we hear, uh, quite often about, um, neurotypical and neuroatypical.

    2. MA

      Yes.

    3. AH

      Uh, and I do think there's a distinct difference in the conversational style, the amount of prosody.

    4. MA

      Mm-hmm.

    5. AH

      Um, I don't want to say affect, because, uh, I have some close friends who are neuroatypical, and they tell me, and I believe them, that they have every bit as much emotion underneath their voice-

    6. MA

      Right.

    7. AH

      ... as somebody who's, like-

    8. MA

      Yeah.

    9. AH

      ... really, you know, really, um, you know, sharing that emotion in, in these inflections of voice and, and their bodily movements. Do you think that we need to adjust our kind of concept of what effective communication is based on this, what seems to be an expansion of at least the understanding of neurotypical/neuroatypical?

    10. MA

      Yeah. I, I, I certainly don't mean to conflate neurodiversity and introversion and extroversion. But the question you're asking, to me, is... I, I hear it as a similar way. Is, is there one right way to communicate or one better way? And people who don't communicate that way, are they at a disadvantage? Uh, I think there are expectations for what effective communication is, but I think it is a, a... We can expand it and, and there is value for people, uh-...reg- regardless of if it's neurodiversity or introversion, for example. Extroversion tends to get rewarded just because you get... You hear it, you see it. But the... I- I think there are things that we can learn from people who are neurodiverse that can help to really connect and- and be better communicators. So too, in the way that folks who are highly introverted communicate can help. There is certainly no one right way to communicate. There are better ways and worse ways, and regardless of where you are in terms of introversion/extroversion, neurodiversity, you can communicate effectively. Play to your strengths. There are things that introverts do that are amazing, that really help move communication forward. People with certain types of neurodiversity, in terms of the creativity or the level of detail with which they communicate, can be really helpful. We just have to find those advantages and- and lean into them to help.

    11. AH

      I find that when it comes to podcast guests-

    12. MA

      Yeah.

    13. AH

      ...if somebody wrote a book at some point, they tend to be pretty comfortable podcasting-

    14. MA

      Mm-hmm.

    15. AH

      ...independent of whether they've been on a lot of podcasts before.

    16. MA

      Yeah.

    17. AH

      Which raises the question, is the practice of writing out one's thoughts, by hand or typing them out, an effective way to prepare to speak or just get better at speaking generally? And I do understand that eventually you gotta...

    18. MA

      (laughs)

    19. AH

      ...you know, if you wanna get better at push-ups, you gotta do push-ups.

    20. MA

      Yeah.

    21. AH

      If you wanna get at speaking, you have to speak.

    22. MA

      Yeah, yeah.

    23. AH

      But do you think writing and transferring ideas onto paper helps people become better communicators?

    24. MA

      Short answer is yes, but I think it's a two-part process. The first part is the thought process that goes into what you're going to write. Having written some books, I know you're- you're writing a book, you- you think differently about your content. You have to think about the audience. You have to think about, "How do these pieces fit together? Is there a scaffolding that's needed?" So, it's the thought process that helps. But then the actual putting pen to paper, fingers on keyboards, when you have to make word choice, when you have to think about the syntax, the grammar, you are more intimately involved with your content than you are when you're just thinking about the idea. So- so I think at both levels, it's helping you hone your message. I'm a very nervous writer. I'm not a very nervous speaker. I- I am very nervous about what I write, but I'm a better editor than I am writer. And that editing process really trains your brain to be ready to respond to questions, to focus on information. And so I think each of those steps, the ideation, the actual crafting, and then the editing, prepare you to communicate better. And all of us can use different parts of those s- You don't have to write a book to be able to use those skills to speak better.

Episode duration: 2:26:20

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