Dr. Martin Picard on Huberman Lab: Why stress grays hair

1. 0:00 – 3:50

   Martin Picard

   1. AHAndrew Huberman0:00

      What's the deal?

   2. MPMartin Picard0:01

      (laughs)

   3. AHAndrew Huberman0:01

      Can people reverse the graying of their hair by reducing their stress? Can people accelerate the graying of their hair by stressing more?

   4. MPMartin Picard0:07

      Likely both are true, yes.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman0:09

      Okay.

   6. MPMartin Picard0:10

      And, uh, I think what we discovered is that hair graying, at least temporarily, is reversible. This was surprising because it goes against this notion that aging is a linear, you know, uh, process that just happens over time no matter what you do. And here we showed no, actually, a, a, a hallmark of aging, which is, you know, depigmentation, losing color in your beard and your hair, um, is something that happens to almost everyone, but at different, you know, stages of life and, and so on. And then on the same person, and, and the reason we got into this was that this felt like the perfect experiment. Every hair has the same genome.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman0:45

      Mm-hmm.

   8. MPMartin Picard0:45

      They're all genetically identical twins, right? And they're all exposed to the same exercise regime, the same food, the same stress levels, uh, but yet some hairs go gray when you're like late 30s and then some hairs go gray when you're like in your 80s. What the hell's happening? If we could figure this out, maybe we can understand why different people age at different rates.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman1:05

      Mm-hmm.

   10. MPMartin Picard1:06

       Uh, because it's very clear that there's no more than 10% of how long you live that's genetically driven. Like the best studies put this at around 7%. 7% of, of longevity is genetically inherited maybe, and then about 90% is not.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman1:20

       Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Martin Picard. Dr. Martin Picard is a professor of behavioral medicine at Columbia University. He is also a leading expert on how your daily behaviors and your mode of thinking, meaning your psychology, change energy production in your cells, and can accelerate or reverse biological aging. Most people have heard of mitochondria as the energy-producing organelles within their cells, and of course that's linked to what we call metabolism and metabolic health. And of course most people understand that eating properly, exercising, and sleep are critical for metabolic health. But it turns out that's only part of the story. As Dr. Picard explains, mitochondria don't just make energy. They act as sort of antennas to link your psychological experiences to your organ health, your rate of aging, and your sense of vigor, meaning your mental and physical readiness. He explains that how well your mitochondria work in different organs and brain areas reflects what specific forms of exercise you do, as well as how you think and how you manage stress. Today he explains the things that you can do to enhance mitochondrial function that go beyond the typical get sleep, eat right, and exercise advice. His lab has shown that aging is not linear. It's not just a progression from youth to death where your mitochondria decline over that time. At different ages and stages, mitochondrial health drops off like a cliff, but there are critical things that you can do in terms of how you eat, your mindset, and exercise that can offset those changes. His lab also famously showed that graying of hair is indeed related to stress, and is also fortunately reversible. By the end of today's episode, you will not only have had a master class in mitochondria, he explains mitochondria with immense clarity so that you really will understand how these incredible organelles work to produce energy and as the sort of antennas to direct that energy from outside you and by the things you do. And by the end of today's episode, you'll also have a lot of actionable items that you can apply toward your health and to offset aging. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Martin Picard. Dr.

2. 3:50 – 7:53

   What is Energy?, Energy Flow & Transformation

   1. AHAndrew Huberman3:50

      Martin Picard, welcome.

   2. MPMartin Picard3:52

      Thank you.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman3:53

      Your work is so relevant nowadays. I suppose it was relevant always, but these days we hear so much about mitochondria. Most people have perhaps heard of mitochondria. They think the powerhouse of the cell. But you're gonna tell us that it's a lot more than that.

   4. MPMartin Picard4:09

      (laughs)

   5. AHAndrew Huberman4:09

      And I should say right off the bat that if people think that perhaps a discussion about these little organelles we call mitochondria is not for them, keep in mind Martin's laboratory was the one that discovered that you can indeed reverse the graying of your hair, uh, that graying of hair is not a, a prerequisite, uh, of aging. There are some other ways that h- hair grays. So we'll get to that later. Super interesting work. I have a million questions for you. Let's start off with the most important and most basic question, which is, what is this thing that we call energy? There's electrical energy, we know the sun gives us energy, et cetera. But when we're talking about the energy of life-

   6. MPMartin Picard4:47

      Mm-hmm.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman4:49

      ... physical and mental vigor, the feeling that we want to do something as opposed to have to force ourselves to do it, what is this at the organism and cellular level?

   8. MPMartin Picard4:59

      I mean, even physicists don't agree on what energy is. (laughs) And there's been debates, you know, uh, Richard Feynman, who was like this amazing science communicator physicist said like, "We don't even know what energy is and what's the best way to define it," 'cause there are all of these forms. Thermal energy, heat, right?

   9. AHAndrew Huberman5:15

      Mm-hmm.

   10. MPMartin Picard5:16

       Light energy, electromagnetic, uh, kinetic energy, movement, speed, right? Uh, potential energy. So, uh, energy kind of manifests in all of these different ways. So in, in a nutshell, I think the best definition I've, I've heard, uh, from my wife Nirosha is, uh, who's a biophysicist, energy is the potential for change.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman5:35

       Mm-hmm.

   12. MPMartin Picard5:36

       Right? So, and that applies to any kind of, uh, form, uh, any form of energy you can think about. It, it's the potential for change, for changing something in the system. And that's, uh, I think an accurate description of, you know, thermal energy. If something is frozen solid, there's no, you know, potential for, for moving something. We need to be at 37 Celsius, right? The human body.It gives us the potential to move and muscles to contract and, you know, our biology to, to, to function. So this is just one example where there's, like, a sweet spot of energy or there needs to be some thermal energy. You need to be a little warm to be alive.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman6:13

       Mm-hmm.

   14. MPMartin Picard6:13

       Um, uh, so it... The potential for change and then it manifests in all these beautiful ways, uh, and it's something that flows, you know? And a key property of, of energy is something that has the ability to flow and to transform.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman6:25

       Mm-hmm.

   16. MPMartin Picard6:25

       So, you can never create nor destroy energy, right? That's, like, a, a fundamental law of, of thermodynamics. But energy always transforms. So you can transform heat, right, into motion, right? In, like, the, the steam engine, for example, through pressure and other form of energy. Uh, or you can trans-transform electricity into, you know, a picture on your screen. That's, you know, what your computer does, uh, transforms your raw energy, electricity, into, you know, uh, a picture or sound or... Um, so that's what happens all around us. It's all, you know, energy moving, transforming, energy from the sun. (laughs)

   17. AHAndrew Huberman7:02

       Mm-hmm.

   18. MPMartin Picard7:02

       This outer, you know, reactor and, you know, uh, nuclear reactor in outer space-

   19. AHAndrew Huberman7:06

       (laughs)

   20. MPMartin Picard7:06

       ... beams energy at us and then what plants do is they take that energy transform, you know, light into biochemistry. And then you get energy which used to be immaterial that gets crystallized into biochemistry, and then we human beings, animals, eat that biochemical energy and then in our, in our mitochondria, that energy gets transformed, right? Again, the potential for change. And then the... That biochemical energy gets transformed into an electrochemical gradient, like you charge your little batteries, your mitochondria, and then that's another form of energy which, again, is a potential for change. And then you can make ATP with this, you can make reactive oxygen species, you can make hormones, you can, you know, all of the beautiful things that mitochondria do. So energy is that, that potential for change that has all of these different forms that cons- continuously transforms.

3. 7:53 – 14:18

   Energy, Vitality, Emotions, Sensory Perception

   1. AHAndrew Huberman7:53

      Amazing. Or you can use your brain to create technologies that create other forms of energy or-

   2. MPMartin Picard7:58

      Exactly.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman7:59

      ... excuse me, transform other forms of energy.

   4. MPMartin Picard8:01

      Exactly. Uh, and your question was about, you know, the, the human energy vitality, like, you know, the, the, the energy to do something, and that's, I think, another manifestation of energy. As energy flows through this thing that we call biology or, you know, the, the human body, uh, it kind of moves us into, into action, right? And, uh, we know from first principles that the, the, the basis for human experiences, you know, the mind and our ability to be inspired, to, to feel, you know, positive things or to feel negative things depends on the flow of energy, right? The, the difference between a thinking, feeling, conscious person having experiences and, uh, being able to go to the gym and lift and, like, or and a cadaver is really... (laughs)

   5. AHAndrew Huberman8:48

      (laughs)

   6. MPMartin Picard8:48

      It's not the size of the muscles, the number of cells, the nucleus, the genes, the mitochondria. It's none of this. The difference between a living person and a cadaver is the flow of energy.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman8:58

      Mm-hmm.

   8. MPMartin Picard8:59

      When you die, all of the structure, you know, the physical stuff remains a- as is, but energy stops flowing. If you stop breathing, if your heart stops (laughs) beating, energy flow stops and then energy transformation, therefore, can't happen and then that's what we call death, and then the mind dies, right? Like, you, you don't have an experience anymore. And, um, so the flow of energy, I think, has to be the, the, the basis not only of life, which we know, you know, to be, to be correct, but also the basis of human experiences and what we experience as energy. We think about energy, we, we crave energy and we know and, uh, the way we talk about, you know, this person has really good energy or this thing, you know, really energized me or, you know, I had this great idea. Your friend was telling you, "I had this great idea, I'm buzzing, man."

   9. AHAndrew Huberman9:44

      Mm-hmm.

   10. MPMartin Picard9:45

       Like, what's that buzzing thing?

   11. AHAndrew Huberman9:46

       Mm-hmm.

   12. MPMartin Picard9:46

       It, it is a real experience. And, uh, most people have, you know, had the, the experience of feeling really excited about something, right? A new idea, a new person and then, you know, you have butterflies and, uh, you know, there are emotions going on in your body. I suspect emotions, the best, kind of, first principles definition of an emotion is energy in motion.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman10:08

       Mm-hmm.

   14. MPMartin Picard10:09

       And, uh, we can talk more about, like, uh, what we experience in terms of energy, but I think it's pretty clear we don't experience energy per se. Like, you don't have a direct experience, um, an empirical, uh, uh, you know, access to how much fat you have in your body. Like, there are hormones that communicate and you know how much energy is in your liver and, uh, or how much, you know, heat, uh, is, is in, you know, something. What you feel, what you experience is the change in energy. When energy moves, you feel that, right? And I, I suspect that's what emotions are. There is, like, a movement of energy, something shifts and then you experience that. A bit like, uh, uh, like if you're in a car and your eyes are closed and you're going constant speed, right? Kinetic energy? You have no way of knowing from first experience if you're going at 100 miles an hour, 10 miles an hour, or if you're standing still. These are very different energy, uh, energetic quantities, right? The kinetic energy. Uh, what you do feel is acceleration and deceleration.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman11:11

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   16. MPMartin Picard11:11

       You feel the delta in energy, right? The change in energy. Acceleration, deceleration. Same with temperature. Like, if you touch something and it's body temperature, right? The same temperature as your hand, you don't feel it. You don't feel, you know, room temperature or, you know, uh, or, or body temperature. What you feel if some- you touch something that's cooler than your body, what you're feeling is not the temperature of what you're touching, you're feeling your temperature leaving your body, right? It's the heat of your body leaving through conduction towards this and then that's what you experience. And if you touch something that's hot, you're not feeling the energy of the thing, you're feeling the heat that's coming into your body. So you feel that delta and that change, and that's how human perception also, uh, works. Like, you... We're able to see colors, to see light. You've studied the, (laughs) the visual system a lot.You know, fundamentally, the ability of the eye, of the retina, to perceive, right, to, to sense light, uh, requires that you bring photons, right, that are beaming from whatever source, short, long wavelength, uh, you need to bring them into stillness, right? You need to resist the flow of, of, of photons and then y- so you change the speed of the photon, and it's that change in energy. You get kinetic energy, speed of light, (laughs) and then boom, that, when th- that the, the delta V, the change in, in, in speed, uh, uh, happens, this is when you can, you can trigger your, a calcium release and then molecular series of events, an action potential and... So in order to see, you need to resist the flow of photons, right? You need to, uh, uh, resist, you know, energy movement and then that, uh, triggers a transformation. Same for hearing, right? We hear, and I hear your voice, uh, because my eardrum resists the pressure waves that, you know, you're producing. So your energy is being channeled and projected through s- through the air as sound waves, another form of energy, and then I'm feeling you, right? Through your energy that's carried through the air, and then because my eardrum resists the, the pressure wave that you're producing, and then it's that resistance, right, and that change, that delta, again in, in speed by resisting your, the sound waves coming from you, by resisting your energy, now I can perceive them. And then there are little ossicles in the ear that transmit what used to be pressure waves into now mechanical motion and then into, like, fluid into the inner ear and then cilia that move and then ions that come in then th- eventually they get transformed into electricity, right? So again, it's one form of energy, pressure waves turn into electricity, and then the brain uses electricity as a form of energy that can... There are many, right? But w- that electricity is just so amenable to computation, processing and integration. So once you have this common energetic language for sight, for hearing, for, you know, uh, touch and smell and, and taste, then you can integrate that. We perceive energy, uh, transformation and change in energy. We don't perceive energy, uh, you know, per se.

4. 14:18 – 17:19

   Sponsors: Helix Sleep & Lingo

   1. AHAndrew Huberman14:18

      I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Helix Sleep. Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs. Now, I've spoken many times before on the Huberman Lab Podcast and elsewhere about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health and performance. Now, the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in terms of the quality of sleep that you get each night. How soft it is, how firm it is, how breathable it is, the temperature all play into your comfort and needs to be tailored to your unique sleep needs. If you go to the Helix website, you'll take a brief two-minute quiz and it will ask you questions such as, "Do you tend to sleep on your back, your side or your stomach?" Maybe you don't know, but it will also ask you, "Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night or the early part of the night?" Et cetera. Things of that sort. Maybe you know the answers to those questions, maybe you don't, but either way, Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you. For me, that turned out to be the Dusk mattress, D-U-S-K. I started sleeping on the Dusk mattress about three and a half years ago, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had. It's absolutely clear to me that having a mattress that's right for you does improve one's sleep. If you'd like to try Helix, you can go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take that two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that is customized for you. Right now, Helix is giving up to 20% off sitewide. Helix has also teamed up with TrueMed, which allows you to use your HSA/FSA dollars to shop Helix's award-winning mattresses. Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to get up to 20% off. Today's episode is also brought to us by Lingo. Glucose is a key player in how our body functions, not just in the long term, but in every moment of our lives. That's because it is the major fuel for our cells, especially our brain cells. Glucose directly impacts our brain function, mood and energy levels, and it may even affect our levels of tenacity and willpower. This is why I use the continuous glucose monitor from Lingo. I absolutely love it and I'm thrilled to have them as a sponsor of the podcast. Lingo helps me track my glucose in real time to see how the foods I eat and the actions I take impact my glucose. When glucose in your body spikes or crashes, your cognitive and physical performance do too. In fact, large glucose peaks and valleys lead to brain fog, fatigue, irritability and hunger. What you eat, of course, plays a major role in your glucose. Some foods cause sharp spikes and big crashes, and others do not. But not everyone is the same in terms of how they respond to particular foods. Seeing your glucose in real time helps you build eating and other habits that support metabolic health, mental clarity and sustained energy. Lingo has helped me to better understand what foods to eat, when to eat, and how things like a brief walk after a meal can help keep my glucose stable and much more. If you'd like to try Lingo, Lingo is offering Huberman Podcast listeners in the US 10% off a four-week Lingo plan. Terms and conditions apply. Visit helolingo.com/huberman for more information. The Lingo glucose system is for users 18 and older not on insulin. It is not intended for the diagnosis of diseases, including diabetes. Individual responses may vary.

5. 17:19 – 18:15

   “Mito-Centric” View of World, Mitochondrial Energy & Information Patterns

   1. AHAndrew Huberman17:19

      Your description, uh, brings to mind a number of things, but, uh, years ago, a colleague of mine, who unfortunately now has passed, um, stopped me in the hallway at Stanford. This was Ben Barris, my postdoc advisor, later my colleague as a faculty member. He said, "Why do we have so much less energy as we get older?"

   2. MPMartin Picard17:37

      (laughs)

   3. AHAndrew Huberman17:38

      And I said, "Well, that's probably not a concern with you, Ben." I mean, he was known for having tremendous amounts of energy. He probably only slept four or five hours a night. But in any case, I said, "I don't know." And he goes, "Well, how come no one's working on that?"

   4. MPMartin Picard17:49

      Yeah.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman17:49

      "Like, why are we working on all this other stupid stuff?"

   6. MPMartin Picard17:52

      (laughs)

   7. AHAndrew Huberman17:52

      And I won't tell you what he listed off 'cause some of it was stuff in his laboratory. Um, and I said, "Well, that stuff's interesting too." He goes, "But nothing is more interesting than why we have less energy as we get older, except perhaps why it is that the brain can't change as readily-"

   8. MPMartin Picard18:07

      No.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman18:07

      "... uh, uh, and when we're young as opposed to older." You said something...... very important to, uh, underscore and that I'd like to get into a bit more,

6. 18:15 – 25:26

   Inflammation, Energetic Flow

   1. AHAndrew Huberman18:15

      which is you said, you know, or your partner said, um, uh, "Energy is the potential for change." And you mentioned emotions, they stir us, right? And that, that feeling, especially a positive anticipation-

   2. MPMartin Picard18:29

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman18:29

      ... is so much of what we live for. In fact, the, the signature feature of major depression is lack of, of kind of any idea that there is a future worth living into.

   4. MPMartin Picard18:40

      Apathy.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman18:41

      So, yeah, apathy, et cetera. Whereas vitality and excitement and everything good about life is about wanting to know what comes next. So if we take a, um, a biophysical to cellular to psychological set of steps here, we would say that somehow energy is converted into, uh, this internal vibration, which we call emotions, that let us sense, physically sense into a future.

   6. MPMartin Picard19:10

      Mm-hmm.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman19:10

      It could be even a negative emotion, but they... but it still senses into a future.

   8. MPMartin Picard19:14

      Mm-hmm.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman19:15

      And, and then you give this example, a very dramatic example, but I believe appropriate of a cadaver, where all the material is, is still there, right after death, before it degrades, right?

   10. MPMartin Picard19:26

       Mm-hmm.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman19:26

       But it can't move, and therefore there is no future. There-

   12. MPMartin Picard19:31

       And it can't sense. Yeah.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman19:32

       So very, a very different way of, of thinking about death. So, let's talk about, um, psychological energy-

   14. MPMartin Picard19:39

       Mm-hmm.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman19:39

       ... and physical energy that we call vitality.

   16. MPMartin Picard19:43

       Mm-hmm.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman19:43

       Um, and if you would, it's just a bit of a challenge, but could you perhaps use that as an opportunity to teach us about these incredible organelles that we call mitochondria?

   18. MPMartin Picard19:53

       I use this slide, uh, often as an opening slide when I give presentations to academics or non-academics, uh, which is kind of a mito-centric view of the world.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman20:03

       Mm-hmm.

   20. MPMartin Picard20:04

       Right? Like (laughs) at some point we realized that the, the Earth was not the, the center of the world, and then we switched over to a different form of... a different, you know, model of the universe. So, my sense is we need to do something similar for, uh, in biomedicine. Uh, we still have, I think, in most people's mind, especially the older generations, a very gene-centric, you know, nucleus-centric view of biology that the genes are there and then central dogma, right? The genes drive RNA, drive protein, and then drive phenotype. Uh, and we know that that's not the full picture and there's a lot of end phenotypes, uh, for example, in genetically identical mice, right?

   21. AHAndrew Huberman20:43

       Mm-hmm.

   22. MPMartin Picard20:43

       They're mice that all have the same genome and some are, like, very anxious and some are super chill. It, it can't be encoded in the gene somehow. (laughs) We found recently that actually there are differences in mitochondria, and part of the reason why these animals behaviorally are different, maybe half of what it... half of the variance, half of, like the, the inter-individual differences, what makes one mouse super chill and the other, the brother, the sister, that is genetically identical, uh, very anxious, has to do about... uh, with energetics in, in some way. Um, so I use this slide to convey this mito-centric, uh, perspective, uh, if you wanna have a copy and, you know, show people, um, I'm happy to share this. And one way to understand this is energy comes into the organism as food. We eat and we breathe to fuel our mitochondria, right? So the, the reason you breathe is to bring oxygen to the body. Most people know this. And then once oxygen is in your lungs, it goes into your blood and then it goes to the heart, and then the heart kind of boom, distributes this, you know, across the whole organism. Uh, and then when oxygen gets, you know, to your big toe or to your muscle or to your neuron and, you know, the, your hippocampus or some brain region, um, what happens is the oxygen enters the cell, and then once it's inside the cell, it looks for mitochondria. It looks... I mean, it's attracted by a concentration gradient. So that's... the mitochondria is where oxygen is consumed. Uh, and then when mitochondria consume oxygen, they basically create a downhill slope for oxygen to kind of be attracted to that. So you breathe to bring oxygen to your mitochondria and you eat to bring electrons into your mitochondria. And, uh, what happens there is, you know, this beautiful sequence of, of, of reactions where you have electrons from... that were in-... initially stuck on food by the plants, you know, take, taking solar energy to stick electrons onto carbon and then you make hydrocarbons and then that's, you know, glucose or starch or... and then lip... oils, lipids, everything that, that's, that's good for... good fuel for mitochondria. Those things, the food and the oxygen converge inside the mitochondria. And then finally, the, uh, the electrons that were, you know, ripped off as CO2 is broken into oxygen and, and, uh, are reunited in your mitochondria. And so your mitochondria actually make water, uh, and, and, and then release CO2. So that's the... they, they close the life cycle that, you know, we have with photosynthesis. Photosynthesis makes oxygen and food, and then our mitochondria brings those two things together and then they release water and CO2, exactly what plants need. So it's this beautiful cycle. So when mitochondria do this, uh, it is basically, uh, feeding un-patterned energy into the system. And it starts with, with the mitochondria the same way that if you feed electricity into a mor- Morse code, right? Like (beeping sounds) . Um, you feed electricity, its un-patterned energy like food and biochemistry is to your body. And then you... by pressing and releasing a little lever, right, with a specific pattern, what you're doing is you're patterning electricity, which means nothing, it's just, you know, raw current, and then you pattern it in something that means something. Short beeps, long beeps, and then you can spell stuff, you can communicate information, right? So you're creating information out of, you know... by patterning in, in time, right? By patterning electricity. So mitochondria, the way I see them is they're kind of an energy patterning system.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman24:11

       Hmm.

   24. MPMartin Picard24:12

       And we've called them the mitochondrial information processing system for that reason.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman24:16

       Should we think of them like a little Morse code, um, lever?

   26. MPMartin Picard24:19

       I, I think it's a decent, you know, analogy for, uh, you know, part of their behavior-

   27. AHAndrew Huberman24:24

       Mm-hmm.

   28. MPMartin Picard24:24

       ... part of what they do fundamentally.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman24:25

       Mm-hmm.

   30. MPMartin Picard24:25

       They take raw energy, and then they pattern that energy into molecules.
7. 25:26 – 31:12

   Organelles, Mitochondria & Energy Transformation; Maternal Genes

   1. AHAndrew Huberman25:26

      Well, let me ask you this. Uh, I think you just answered the question, but are there different types of mitochondria?

   2. MPMartin Picard25:31

      Yes.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman25:32

      How does a mitochondria in the liver versus in the brain versus in the heart know to take the energy that it's transforming-

   4. MPMartin Picard25:39

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman25:40

      ... and pattern its output so that heart cells can do what heart cells need to do, or liver or brain?

   6. MPMartin Picard25:47

      Yep.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman25:47

      Uh, it just seems like a very important issue.

   8. MPMartin Picard25:50

      Yeah.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman25:50

      Um, is it possible even that the mitochondria in these different tissues are fundamentally different organelles? And we should probably define what an organelle is for people.

   10. MPMartin Picard26:00

       Yes. Yeah. Organelle is the, the technical term, uh, for an organ of the cell. Uh, and the cell typically is represented as this, you know, skin, and then inside the skin is the cytoplasm, the big soup. And then inside the soup, the cytoplasm, there is a bunch of little organs that allow the cell to do all sorts of, uh, things and per- perform its activities and replicate and so on. Mitochondria is one of those organs.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman26:27

       Mm-hmm.

   12. MPMartin Picard26:27

       Uh, and their purpose is to, uh, process, transform energy. Uh, and one of the ways in which they, they transform energy is taking raw, uh, energy from biochemistry, the, the food you eat, uh, empowered by oxygen to, you know, flow those electrons and then making, building a, a, a charge and then powering this beautiful rotor. Uh, some people might have seen this. It, it's kind of a, a, a rotary, you know, uh, engine kind of thing, a turbine. Uh, and then when the mito- when mitochondria build their membrane potential to become charged, they use that charge to power the rotation of this turbine. And then as the turbine turns, it converts ADP into ATP. So now you have conversion of biochemistry into electricity, an electrochemical charge in the mitochondria, back into biochemistry, ATP.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman27:17

       What's, um, in the backdrop of all this, of course, is that all of this self-organizes during development, that yes, the genes are the blueprint, but this is all built up from scratch.

   14. MPMartin Picard27:27

       Correct.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman27:27

       Uh, probably a, a, uh, tangent for another time, but so how does a, a heart cell know to produce a lot of ATP versus a liver cell? And of course, it's coordinated in time with sleep-

   16. MPMartin Picard27:40

       Mm-hmm.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman27:40

       ... and circadian stuff, but how does it know or does it even know, "I'm a har- I'm a mitochondria inside a heart cell-"

   18. MPMartin Picard27:46

       Yeah.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman27:46

       "... and the amount of energy I need to transform is X?"

   20. MPMartin Picard27:50

       Yeah. How does a mitochondrion, right, singular is mitochondrion and multiple is mitochondria, uh, how does a mitochondrion in a heart cell know that it needs to be a cardiac mitochondrion? (laughs) Right? Is that your question?

   21. AHAndrew Huberman28:02

       Yeah. Is it, is it genetically different than a mitochondrion from, uh, the liver?

   22. MPMartin Picard28:07

       No. They're ex- genetically exactly the same. And, uh, and that's another, uh, kind of, uh, punch to the, the gene-based, you know, model of biology.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman28:16

       Mm-hmm.

   24. MPMartin Picard28:16

       How could it be that every cell in your body is genetically identical, uh, and the mitochondria have their own genetic material. Uh, y- we all have our mom's mitochondria, which is really beautiful. It kinda-

   25. AHAndrew Huberman28:29

       100% of our mitochondrial genome is from Mom, is that true?

   26. MPMartin Picard28:32

       Correct. Correct.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman28:33

       Okay.

   28. MPMartin Picard28:33

       And there were a few papers a few years ago that said, "Ooh, no, look here. There's this, like, re- this one case (laughs) this one kid or this, you know, these two kids that have paternal, you know, father mitochondria." Turns out it was, like, a mistake in the sequencing or, uh-

   29. AHAndrew Huberman28:47

       So, so mothers are truly always right. (laughs)

   30. MPMartin Picard28:49

       (laughs) Yes. Power to, power to mothers.
8. 31:12 – 36:52

   Mitotypes & Differentiation, Mitochondria as “Social Organisms”

   1. MPMartin Picard31:12

      of sense.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman31:12

      It does make a lot of sense.

   3. MPMartin Picard31:13

      Yeah. Every mitochondria you have in your body, like the brain mitochondria, neuron mitochondria, astrocyte mitochondria, whatever your favorite cell type is, your heart mitochondria, liver mitochondria, muscle mitochondria, they're, they're very different. And now we have a, a new method. There's a, a wonderful scientist in our group, Anna Manziel, who's developed, uh, a method to profile different types of mitochondria.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman31:35

      Mm-hmm.

   5. MPMartin Picard31:35

      We call this mitotyping. The same way that now in neuroscience or in immunology it makes no sense to talk about a brain cell or like an immune cell.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman31:44

      Right.

   7. MPMartin Picard31:45

      If you're a self, uh, you know, respecting immunologist, you know your cell types-

   8. AHAndrew Huberman31:49

      Mm-hmm.

   9. MPMartin Picard31:49

      ... and there is, you know, at least 30 (laughs) different types. Uh, so I think we're at this point in mitochondrial science where we need to adopt a similar level of specificity. There are different types of mitochondria, uh, we call those mitotypes, uh, and they emerge all of them from the same mitotype in the egg, right? The, the egg that the mother carries and, you know, releases from the ovary. There is about half a million, uh, mitochondria in that egg. Uh, and then those mitochondria, there's a single type of mitochondria in there, and then when it's fertilized, development happens in this beautiful, uh, process. And through that process, as the heart starts to form, the brain starts to form, the muscles start to form, the mitochondria differentiate, and then you end up with different types of mitochondria that are adapted and matched to the different demands of, of, of cell types, of organs. Uh, and one way we think about this is, uh, I think it's, uh, it makes a lot of sense to think about mitochondria as social organisms.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman32:49

       Hm.

   11. MPMartin Picard32:50

       And there are multiple features of mitochondrial biology that obey, you know, what, um, a behavioral social scientist, you know, classify as, as social. You know, if you study ants for example, there's like a few rules that we know ants are social creatures because, uh, they form groups, right, and there are different types. They, they divide, there's division of labor. You have worker ants that, you know, work really hard, and you have warrior ants that are like really chubby and like they're, they're here to defend the, the hive.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman33:18

       They like to fight.

   13. MPMartin Picard33:19

       Yeah, exactly. So, those two types of ants, you look at them side by side, there's like this little flimsy super or like, uh, uh, active worker ant and then this like chubby, uh, warrior ant. Genetically they're, uh, they're identical.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman33:32

       Hm.

   15. MPMartin Picard33:32

       They have the same genome. They came as, you know, little larvae from the, you know, the queen. Uh, but their, their morphology is super different. Their behavior is, is very different, uh, but through development there are cues that ha- you know, are, are, um, uh, uh, applied to the different larvae and then they end up becoming a wor- worker or a warrior. Uh, so the same kind of thing happens, uh, in, in mitochondria. So mito- there are different types of mitochondria, like the two types of ants. There is division of labor. There are some mitochondria for example in the muscle that are at the surface of the muscle, like just underneath the sarcolemma, the, the, the skin of the muscle cells, and then there are mitochondria that are inside, you know, where the actin, myosin, the contractile proteins happen. Subsarcolemma mitochondria and intermyofibular mitochondria. Two populations. Their proteome is different, or their, their molecular composition of those different types of mitochondria are different. Their functions, ATP synthesis, reactive oxygen species production, their ability to handle calcium and release calcium is different, their morphology is very different. So even within one cell you get this, uh, division of labor and, um, uh, differentiation of, of mitochondria, and in every cell, mitochondria have a life cycle. New mitochondria are born and old mitochondria die out, uh, which is what happens in social creatures. Um, and there's, uh, a few other features like this that I think make mitochondria social organisms. And once you start to think about mitochondria as social, uh, creatures, then you, you understand maybe a little better why they need to fuse with one another. And if you, if you ask Google, "What do mitochondria look like?" (laughs) Or ChatGPT or whatever, uh, they, it shows you always the same kind of images. It's like a little bean, you got it.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman35:17

       I brought one, you brought one as a gift.

   17. MPMartin Picard35:19

       (laughs)

   18. AHAndrew Huberman35:19

       I, at one moment I thought they might be brass knuckles when you handed, first handed them to me-

   19. MPMartin Picard35:22

       (laughs)

   20. AHAndrew Huberman35:23

       ... but it's a mitochondrion with the cristae of the mitochondria.

   21. MPMartin Picard35:25

       There you go.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman35:26

       Usually it looks like this, but you're saying in, in reality there'd be many of these connected to, uh, closely fused to one another?

   23. MPMartin Picard35:31

       Yeah. So and when they fuse, you get these like bean or kidney shapes or peanut shape, whatever your, your preference is, that fuse with one another and then they form these beautiful filaments. Uh, so if you're lucky enough to work in a lab that has one of these cool microscopes called confocal microscope or light-sheet microscopy or... and then you can make the mitochondria fluorescent. So you put a dye in, in the dish and then it's a little fluorescent molecule that go- it goes inside the mitochondria, it's attracted by the big, uh, charge that mitochondria have, uh, and then you turn out the lights, look down the eyepiece, and then you see these beautiful like filaments, you know, mitochondria moving. They move pretty slowly, and interestingly they're just at the edge of human perception of like-

   24. AHAndrew Huberman36:12

       Okay.

   25. MPMartin Picard36:12

       ... uh, how quickly we can perceive things to move. So they move like, you know, barely fast enough so you can see them, and then pop they, they, they kiss, uh, and, and then fuse completely.

   26. AHAndrew Huberman36:22

       Either...... you can invite everyone to your lab to see this, but that's a lot of people.

   27. MPMartin Picard36:26

       (laughs)

   28. AHAndrew Huberman36:26

       You'd be very busy. We'll put a link to a, a video of this.

   29. MPMartin Picard36:29

       Yeah.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman36:29

       Um...
9. 36:52 – 40:02

   Food & Dysfunctional Energy Transformation

   1. MPMartin Picard36:52

   2. AHAndrew Huberman36:52

      It occurred to me that, (sighs) you know, for the longest time... I'm 50 now, so I can say, "For the longest time." For the longest time, we heard that if we want energy we need to eat, right? Of course, we need to sleep, but we need to eat. So it'd be like w- and, and every kid learns, you're consuming energy that so that you fuel your body. There are all these discussions. You should eat meat, don't eat meat. I believe you should eat some meat, you should eat some vegetables, some fruit-

   3. MPMartin Picard37:17

      (laughs)

   4. AHAndrew Huberman37:17

      ... etc. I think should, uh, be-

   5. MPMartin Picard37:19

      Some fats.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman37:19

      Be, be an omnivore. Some fats.

   7. MPMartin Picard37:21

      (laughs)

   8. AHAndrew Huberman37:21

      Yes. Uh, that's my, my belief. But we all understood that, but then at some point, probably about 10 years ago, it became clear to people that just consuming more energy didn't give you more energy. It was an obvious thing.

   9. MPMartin Picard37:34

      Yeah.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman37:34

       But it's now, uh, abundantly clear, and based on what you're saying, it should be clear to everyone that the issue is not lack of energy going into the system.

   11. MPMartin Picard37:45

       Mm-mm.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman37:46

       It's that the transformation of energy that occurs in mitochondria somehow is not happening correctly in people that are obese.

   13. MPMartin Picard37:53

       Mm-hmm.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman37:53

       Um, or in people that are eating and feeling lethargic.

   15. MPMartin Picard37:57

       Mm-hmm.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman37:57

       And of course, there's blood sugar, you know, aspects to this, and we could discuss all of that, and we won't 'cause that's not the topic for, uh, for today. But I think if nothing else, if people can just understand that they have not just these powerhouses but these power plants-

   17. MPMartin Picard38:12

       Mm-hmm.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman38:12

       ... within their bodies that are transforming the energy and that the mitochondria are central to how the energy is transformed and distributed-

   19. MPMartin Picard38:19

       Mm-hmm.

   20. AHAndrew Huberman38:20

       ... on an organ-by-organ basis, I think that would be a helpful concept for people to get into their mind because people are talking about mitochondria all the time.

   21. MPMartin Picard38:28

       Mm-hmm.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman38:28

       People are talking about and hearing about nutrition all the time, and so often we just think about calories and, you know, everyone knows that, you know, calorie is a unit of, you know heat off, but when you burn a given food im- pe- we learn this stuff.

   23. MPMartin Picard38:39

       Yeah.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman38:40

       But it doesn't transform into good health practices.

   25. MPMartin Picard38:43

       Mm-hmm.

   26. AHAndrew Huberman38:44

       But I think nowadays people are starting to get a sense of, of how their bodies work, and you're adding a lot of important, uh, detail and aspects to that today. Um, so I just wanted to, uh, frame that up.

   27. MPMartin Picard38:55

       Yep.

   28. AHAndrew Huberman38:55

       Um-

   29. MPMartin Picard38:56

       And it's-

   30. AHAndrew Huberman38:56

       If you have any reflections on that, great. If not, uh, uh, it, it was just a point that came to mind that I think it might be useful.
10. 40:02 – 46:39

    Lifestyle Choices & Interests, Physiological Growth

    1. AHAndrew Huberman40:02

       Along those lines, I, I do want to, um, talk about this recent paper that you, uh, published, uh, which essentially, my understanding is that looked at different brain areas and found that different brain areas have different concentrations of mitochondria, and we know that different body areas and different organs have different concentrations of mitochondria. But I heard you say someplace, and this is such a beautiful, sticky topic, as they say, that perhaps the things we do in life-

    2. MPMartin Picard40:37

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman40:37

       ... maybe lift weights, maybe study biology, maybe play the piano, maybe some combination of things-

    4. MPMartin Picard40:42

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman40:43

       ... will enrich the mitochondria, these energy transformation sites, in particular organs and areas of our brain more than others. And so we really become what we pay attention to.

    6. MPMartin Picard40:54

       Mm-hmm.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman40:54

       We become enhanced for what we do, and that makes sense at the level of endurance runners run and their muscles become and everything becomes optimized for running, weightlifters, something else. But in the brain, this gets very interesting.

    8. MPMartin Picard41:08

       Mm-hmm.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman41:08

       This means that if we read poetry, for instance, or study biology, that the areas and circuits of the brain that are responsible for that in some sense become better at doing that.

    10. MPMartin Picard41:18

        Mm-hmm.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman41:18

        And I think this is a very important topic because it really gets to the essence of who we are as individuals-

    12. MPMartin Picard41:23

        Yes.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman41:23

        ... based on our choices of what to do and what not to do.

    14. MPMartin Picard41:27

        Yeah.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman41:27

        So with that as the backdrop if you could tell us about this paper and tell us about what you think about these findings and what they might mean-

    16. MPMartin Picard41:33

        Mm-hmm.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman41:34

        ... I would, I would love that.

    18. MPMartin Picard41:35

        We flow as energetic processes, right? To y- to your point, like, uh, we, we are transformative processes. Like, we transform, we flow, we are the energy that flows, and the more you direct energy to one area, right? If you go to the gym and you do bicep curls, like, you're resisting the flow of energy while you're contracting, and then you do this a few times and then when you let go, you get like blood flow, right? Energy flow through the system. Uh, and we know exercise training is a beautiful example. Like, if you train to run a marathon, for example, you can double the number of mitochondria in your muscles.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman42:08

        Wow.

    20. MPMartin Picard42:09

        Double, right? And, uh, my understanding of this is as energy flows through the existing mitochondria, you're basically bringing your energy into that, that system and then this, uh, th- the, the biochemical energy gets transformed into molecules, into metabolites, and then eventually into proteins, and then structure gets created as energy flows.All right, so it's the flow of energy first, you resist it. That's why we call this energy resistance. Uh, and then when you let go of the, of the resistance, it's, uh, that's when we build, that's when we grow. That's when, right, Arnold, uh, Schwarzenegger said, um, uh, "Muscles are torn i- in the gym, they're fed in the kitchen, and are, um, grown in bed," I think is it. (laughs) Um-

    21. AHAndrew Huberman42:55

        (laughs) In an Austrian accent.

    22. MPMartin Picard42:56

        Yeah.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman42:57

        Yeah.

    24. MPMartin Picard42:57

        So, um, so yeah, if you direct energy towards a muscle, right, then one way to direct energy is to resist the, the energy flow and then to, to let go, and that's what exercise fundamentally is, right? You resist the energy flow and then you let go. When you resist energy too much, it feels uncomfortable, which is like the, the burning pain of, of... And then when you let go is when growth and, uh, you know, building c- can happen. Uh, and we know the same thing happens, like, everywhere. This is, this is not, like, a mysterious thing of the muscle and, like, of exercise, uh, you know, physiology. This is a fundamental biological principle. If you flow energy i- in one area, then it will grow. It will, you know, get better, it will get more efficient. And if you block energy flow to one area, like you block blood flow, for example, or you get in an accident and the nerve gets, you know, damaged, then the, the muscle doesn't contract anymore. You're basically blocking the flow of energy there, and what happens? It atrophies, right? Atrophy is a normal, uh, movement of life when energy flow decreases. And if, if there's no energy flow, really there's no purpose for that structure. If you feed, if you stimulate that structure, be it a muscle or brain circuit, right, a brain network or brain area, uh, then naturally, you know, that, that area should, uh, should grow and, and, and build. Uh, and there, what we know happens in the brain and also happens between different organs of the body is there's kind of a competition for finite energy resources.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman44:24

        Hmm.

    26. MPMartin Picard44:24

        Right? What you said earlier, like, you can't just eat more to get more energy. We know... Now we know very well if you overeat, right, you eat more than your body is actually flowing, f- uh, consuming in terms of energy, transforming, you get sick. Like, if you can, you put on fat, which is a good adaptive, uh, coping mechanism to eating too much, uh, but then eventually the system's, like, it gets overwhelmed and then that hurts the mitochondria and it hurts, you know, cells, they become insulin resistant, and so there's all sorts of consequences to eating too much. You cannot eat more to get more energy. And that is, I think still scientifically a very big mystery, right? That why can't we just ramp up our energy, uh, consumption, energy transformation, and then, like, sleep less and, you know, uh, work out three hours every day? The... Even, like, professional athletes who devote all of their energy to, you know, building muscle mass, building skills, or, you know, building aptitudes, there's a limit to how much you, you know, you can eat. Uh, and they're, they're, they're... Yeah, we don't really know why that is, why there's a limit to that. And, uh, so the body operates a, an economy of energy. You have X amount of energy, you can push that up, you know, over short periods of time, like if you start to work out and you're, or you're a cyclist, you do the Tour de France, right? That's three weeks, you're, you're going for, like, 5,000, 7,000 calories a day. You do this for three weeks. There's a reason why the Tour de France is not four weeks and five weeks. (laughs)

    27. AHAndrew Huberman45:52

        Mm-hmm.

    28. MPMartin Picard45:52

        Right? There's, there's, there's a cap, and there's beautiful data showing that the longer the event, the athletic event, the lower the max output per day. And, and if you look at that curve, you know, the, the first point, max power output you can develop over 10 seconds is what you see in the 100-meter sprint, right? And then you get the, uh, 400 meters and, and, and then it goes down. At the very... And the Tour de France is, you know, marathon is here, Tour de France three weeks is here, then you get, like, crazy run a- across America multiple weeks. And then at the very end, nine months, pregnancy. (laughs) And it costs energy to grow a human being, and, uh, some of the data suggests that when you grow a human being for nine months, your ba- the woman is basically operating at the max of her capacity if you integrate over, you know, a nine-month period.

11. 46:39 – 51:07

    Pregnancy, Amenorrhea; Illness & Tiredness

    1. AHAndrew Huberman46:39

       Do pregnant women accumulate more mitochondria, or the energy demands are entirely for the mitochondria of the developing fetus?

    2. MPMartin Picard46:47

       That is a good question.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman46:49

       We know certain brain areas grow during pregnancy.

    4. MPMartin Picard46:52

       That the brain remodels, exactly.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman46:53

       Yeah.

    6. MPMartin Picard46:54

       Uh, there are different demands, right? As a mother, if you're pregnant now (laughs) -

    7. AHAndrew Huberman46:57

       Mm-hmm.

    8. MPMartin Picard46:57

       ... you need to start to care about different things.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman47:00

       Mm-hmm.

    10. MPMartin Picard47:00

        Maybe it's, uh, adaptive to start to think about the world a slightly different way-

    11. AHAndrew Huberman47:03

        Mm-hmm.

    12. MPMartin Picard47:03

        ... and that's not just, just about yourself and-

    13. AHAndrew Huberman47:05

        Mm-hmm.

    14. MPMartin Picard47:06

        ... um, so there, there are certainly l- and even long-lasting brain changes that happen in, in the woman's brain. Uh, so this economy of energy between organs is likely what explains if you're a young woman and you exercise a lot, you lose your menses, right? Amenorrhea. And this is not because the, the reproductive system is broken or because the ovaries are, are sick or something like that. The best explanation we have is there's a shorter... a shortage of energy. Like, you're pushing and driving all of your energy budget towards your working muscles, towards making more mitochondria in your muscles, and there's no more energy to fuel, to, to, to fuel, uh, reproduction.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman47:43

        I have a practical question related to this. I w- I've always wondered why is it that when we're coming down with a cold or a flu or some sort of other infection that there are a bunch of processes that make us, uh, more lethargic and tired, and these are very adaptive.

    16. MPMartin Picard47:59

        Yep.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman47:59

        And we know y- we need to rest, but it's not just about getting sleep.

    18. MPMartin Picard48:03

        I know.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman48:03

        We actually need to slow our circulation down, we need to rest.

    20. MPMartin Picard48:07

        Mm-hmm.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman48:07

        And there are all these theories, you know, about do you feed or starve a cold or flu?

    22. MPMartin Picard48:11

        Yeah.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman48:11

        And I cover that in a different episode. I will put a link. It's not straightforward. But, um, follow your appetite, stay hydrated, keep your electrolytes up and so forth-

    24. MPMartin Picard48:21

        Yes.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman48:21

        ... is the short answer. But is it that the immune system needs more energy and the body, as a protective mechanism, as an adaptive mechanism, is saying, "Slow down everything else and devote yourself to..."... uh, healing, to fighting this infection, as opposed to spending energy even walking up the stairs as much as you typically do during a day. Is that the, is that the idea?

    26. MPMartin Picard48:42

        Yep. I think that's the best model we have. Uh, and I had a personal experience o- of this, uh, (laughs) over New Year's a, a couple years ago, where I s- I s- could feel I was, you know, coming down with something, uh, before the, you know, New Year's dinner, and so it, it ended up being a pretty short night. I went to bed early and that night was terrible. The next day, I was so, uh, so off and I was, uh, you know, starting to work on, on the book Energy, and then I thought, "Ooh, this is such a, a cool opportunity. Like, now I'm experiencing, I'm feeling drained," right? Like, "I'm in bed. Everything hurts." (laughs) And then I thought, "I should be writing about this," right? Like, I- and then I, I thought, like just the, the thought of like grabbing my computer, then I th- I shouldn't cost more y- It doesn't cost a lot of energy to just like wiggle my fingers on the keyboard. But, you know, there was no drive. I stopped caring about stuff that I usually care about, right?

    27. AHAndrew Huberman49:33

        Mm-hmm.

    28. MPMartin Picard49:33

        Everyone has experienced this when you're really sick. (laughs) Uh, motivation, right? Zero.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman49:38

        Mm-hmm.

    30. MPMartin Picard49:39

        Um, my capacity to be the best human being that, that, that I am and to be kind-
12. 51:07 – 52:29

    Sponsor: AG1

    1. AHAndrew Huberman51:07

       now, I'm sure that many of you have heard me say that I've been taking AG1 for more than a decade. And indeed, that's true. The reason I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, and the reason why I still continue to take it every single day, is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market. What that means is that it contains not just vitamins and minerals, but also probiotics, prebiotics, and adaptogens to cover any gaps that you might have in your diet, while also providing support for a demanding life. Given the probiotics and prebiotics in AG1, it also helps support a healthy gut microbiome. The gut microbiome consists of trillions of little microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more. Taking AG1 consistently helps my digestion, keeps my immune system strong, and it ensures that my mood and mental focus are always at their best. AG1 is now available in three new flavors, berry, citrus, and tropical. And while I've always loved the AG1 original flavor, especially with a bit of lemon juice added, I'm really enjoying the new berry flavor in particular. It tastes great. But then again, I do love all the flavors. If you'd like to try AG1 and try these new flavors, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer. Just go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get started.

13. 52:29 – 56:27

    Energy Transformation & Distribution; Body’s Wisdom, Feeling Sick

    1. AHAndrew Huberman52:29

       You mentioned that if women exercise beyond a certain threshold, uh, they stop menstruating, and that it's because there's not enough energy essentially to menstruate.

    2. MPMartin Picard52:39

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman52:39

       One idea would be, well, if you just eat enough, then you have enough energy.

    4. MPMartin Picard52:43

       Yeah.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman52:43

       But we have to think in verb states, not absolutes. And so what I'm realizing is that while one needs sufficient energy input in the form of food-

    6. MPMartin Picard52:51

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman52:51

       ... and this could also be true for the example of being sick, it's necessary but not sufficient because the mitochondria are doing two things. They're transforming that food energy into bodily energy to menstruate or to move or exercise or think or care about a book, et cetera.

    8. MPMartin Picard53:08

       Mm-hmm. (laughs)

    9. AHAndrew Huberman53:09

       But part of their job is not just to transform the energy, it's to distribute the energy.

    10. MPMartin Picard53:14

        Mm-hmm.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman53:14

        And so you really need two conditions. And, uh, you know, I'm not a computer scientist, but I know enough about programming, you know, and engineering that, you know, this concept of an AND gate. You need sufficient energy, so en- uh, coming into the system, and you need to be able to distribute that energy properly in order for something to occur. It's an AND gate. You need both things, basically.

    12. MPMartin Picard53:35

        Yes. Yes.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman53:36

        So I now and forever going forward will think about mitochondria as not just energy production, but energy distribution organelles-

    14. MPMartin Picard53:44

        Yes.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman53:44

        ... thanks to the way you described it. And now it makes perfect sense as to why when I'm sick, if I'm not hungry, I'm not gonna force myself to eat provided I have enough body fat stores. You know, I need to eat eventually, but whatever weakness or fatigue I feel is probably, in, in that c- situation where I don't have an appetite, is probably not a lack of caloric energy driving that fatigue. It's that my body is saying, "You know what? You're better off just not having me shuttle that food energy through you so I can shuttle your immune cells to the proper place."

    16. MPMartin Picard54:15

        Exactly.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman54:15

        And this is when people say the body is smart, there's an intelligence to the system. I think that's true because with our brains we think, "Oh no, I'll just cram more energy into the... you need to eat, you need to sur-" No, maybe not.

    18. MPMartin Picard54:25

        Yeah.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman54:25

        Whereas if I do have an appetite, I don't care what people say about feed a cold, starve a flu, or feed a, you know, starve a flu, feed a cold. I'm just gonna do what my body tells me to.

    20. MPMartin Picard54:33

        Yes. Yes, and I, I agree, the body is wise. Uh, animals who don't have a very, other non-human animals, (laughs) like your-

    21. AHAndrew Huberman54:40

        Mm-hmm.

    22. MPMartin Picard54:40

        ... dogs, uh, like they-They don't have a- a mind to distract them from, you know, living in alignment with their energetic states.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman54:49

        Mm-hmm.

    24. MPMartin Picard54:50

        So, when they're sick, the immune system just... The- the- the amount of the, the part of your budget that gets consumed by the immune system, you know, expands, right?

    25. AHAndrew Huberman54:58

        Mm-hmm.

    26. MPMartin Picard54:58

        So this energy, this extra energy needs to be stolen from somewhere because you- you can't eat more to have, you know, infinite energy. Uh, so when... Where's that energy coming from? And so not contracting your muscles because you feel in pain is a good way, not having to thermoregulate because you, you know, cover up, another way to conserve energy. And then stopping to care about stuff, like becoming asocial and (laughs) apathic, and, uh, all of those features of sickness behavior or energy-conserving, uh, strategies. And not eating... Like if you can have like free 10-15% of your energy now, you can allocate it to your immune system, that is a very good s- strategy. Most people walk around with multiple weeks', if not 'months worth of energy, right, like under the skin, in their love handles. Uh, the record actually for not eating is from this, uh, Scottish man, 382 days.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman55:50

        Was he fat when he started?

    28. MPMartin Picard55:51

        He was very fat. Uh, so-

    29. AHAndrew Huberman55:52

        Was he fat when it ended? (laughs)

    30. MPMartin Picard55:54

        Uh, he lost, uh... How much did he lose? Like 250 pounds I think. Uh-
14. 56:27 – 1:02:31

    Tool: Feel Your Energy; Breath & Energy

    1. AHAndrew Huberman56:27

    2. MPMartin Picard56:27

       Do you want me to do a little experiment? We can do a little experiment to- to feel our energy.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman56:30

       Definitely.

    4. MPMartin Picard56:31

       Yeah? Okay.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman56:32

       By the way, uh, a- a tenured full professor at Columbia School of Medicine just said, "Do you want to do a little experiment to feel your energy?" And we both closed our eyes, which tells you that it's definitely 2025.

    6. MPMartin Picard56:43

       (laughs)

    7. AHAndrew Huberman56:45

       (laughs)

    8. MPMartin Picard56:45

       You know, the reason-

    9. AHAndrew Huberman56:45

       Good things have happened in the world, okay?

    10. MPMartin Picard56:47

        (laughs) The reason we both closed our eyes and kind of stopped moving our- our bodies, which is kind of what you do if you want to meditate or something like this, is because it turns off the noise.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman56:56

        Mm-hmm.

    12. MPMartin Picard56:56

        Right? And the... If you want to survive in a dangerous physical world, you need to be aware of like stuff that might hurt you, right, or kill you. Um, and feeling your body, like proprioception and all of this, needs to be very high level... Yeah, it needs to be prioritized over whatever interoceptive, you know, signal there are. There's some interoceptive signal, that's what we'll feel into, that, you know, can overcome that. (laughs) But just not moving the body, closing your eyes, it kind of helps you to tune into your energy. And I suspect there's a lot of value there.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman57:29

        Yeah, we'll talk more about, uh, some incredible results about meditation and- and res- restoration of energy.

    14. MPMartin Picard57:34

        Yeah.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman57:34

        Um, can the audience do this along with us-

    16. MPMartin Picard57:36

        Yes.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman57:36

        ... provided they're not driving?

    18. MPMartin Picard57:37

        Yes, yes.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman57:38

        Okay, great.

    20. MPMartin Picard57:38

        Yeah. Uh, so to do this, uh, best as you're sitting comfortably, and, um, you can close your eyes if you want to. I think that helps with the- the process. We'll take one breath in, and then, uh, we'll- we'll hold our breath for a little bit. So breathing in (inhales) breathing out (exhales) and you can breathe out all the way, all the way down, and then hold that breath. And for the first few seconds, generally not too uncomfortable, but then as you hold this, feel into your body, to your belly, into your chest, into your head what's the effect of not breathing. And then you start to feel maybe this urge to breathe, and this desire to bring oxygen into your body, to your mitochondria. And then when you need to, you take a breath in, you can open your eyes. If you can hold it longer, you- you do. Yeah. What did you feel?

    21. AHAndrew Huberman58:43

        So when I went to the full exhale and held my breath-

    22. MPMartin Picard58:46

        Mm-hmm.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman58:46

        ... uh, my, what we geek speak, what n-neuroscientists call interoception, my perception of things from the skin inward, became more, uh, uh, salient, and I could feel my heartbeat, uh, more and more. Um, and then it didn't speed up, but I could just feel my heart beating. I was more aware, excuse me, of my heart beating.

    24. MPMartin Picard59:08

        Mm-hmm.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman59:08

        And then I... As the impulse to breathe started to kick in, uh, I could feel a bit of ramping up of, it's not anxiety, but it- it's a- a sense of urgency.

    26. MPMartin Picard59:19

        Mm-hmm.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman59:20

        Uh, you know, hardwired, fortunately.

    28. MPMartin Picard59:21

        Yes, yes. (laughs)

    29. AHAndrew Huberman59:21

        Sense of urgency. And then with an- with an inhale, there's a- a relaxation of- of that sense.

    30. MPMartin Picard59:30

        Yep.
15. 1:02:31 – 1:10:15

    Flow of Energy; Trade-Offs, Life Purpose & Enjoyment

    1. MPMartin Picard1:02:31

       oxygen.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:02:31

       Many times already you've talked about the flow of energy, and that concept I think is gonna be threaded through as we go forward. When you hear about, um, practices like tai chi or when you hear, like in the martial arts where people are taking other people's energy and, you know, converting, and th- this is a, not just a thing of, like, of Aikido, but the notion that, like, if you box you learn that you, you're not just hitting with your arm and your shoulder. You have to keep your feet planted, you're pulling from the floor in some sense.

    3. MPMartin Picard1:02:59

       Mm-hmm.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman1:02:59

       You're transferring the energy, but you're actually pushing back against the floor and then it's coming up through your body. People talk about the fascial slings, you know, when people run. There, there are a bazillion different variations on this, but it's all about this concept of flow of energy.

    5. MPMartin Picard1:03:13

       Mm-hmm.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:13

       And I find that so much of what we find incredible when people dance, when people, uh, sing, when people, uh, do incredible athletic feats or channel everything they've got into something, this channeling of energy, is the human animal deliberately channeling all their energy in the form of practice into something. In many ways, w- we love that-

    7. MPMartin Picard1:03:36

       Yeah.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:36

       ... even though, by definition, it creates a very, uh, lopsided person. And I, I'm not trying to get into the psychology of this so much as I want to go back to this notion of our brain areas having different amounts of mitochondria-

    9. MPMartin Picard1:03:51

       Mm-hmm.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:51

        ... probably from birth. But then, if we play soccer and we like math and, uh, pottery, we get a different brain than if we like reading and theater and movies, and we'll exercise but we're not too crazy about it. You know, if we exercise, our brain works better, we've heard.

    11. MPMartin Picard1:04:12

        Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman1:04:13

        But there's also the notion of the person who just spends all their time exercising and their brain doesn't get better.

    13. MPMartin Picard1:04:19

        Mm-hmm.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:04:19

        I'm being gentle there, uh, and I like exercise, and I like thinking.

    15. MPMartin Picard1:04:23

        (laughs)

    16. AHAndrew Huberman1:04:23

        So...

    17. MPMartin Picard1:04:24

        Is there a trade-off?

    18. AHAndrew Huberman1:04:25

        Uh, is there a trade-off?

    19. MPMartin Picard1:04:26

        Yeah.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman1:04:27

        Because I believe in staying fit and staying healthy and living a long life, but most people are not competitive athletes. Most people don't want to be the strongest person in the gym or the best runner. Most people, I believe, and I'm one of these, I want to be strong enough, I want to have endurance, I want to have some speed, but I want to be able to think.

    21. MPMartin Picard1:04:45

        Mm-hmm.

    22. AHAndrew Huberman1:04:45

        I want my mitochondria balanced across all my systems. My girlfriend would say, "Well, you're a Libra. Of course you do."

    23. MPMartin Picard1:04:50

        (laughs)

    24. AHAndrew Huberman1:04:51

        But I'm saying I want it because I want to be able to lean into a lot of different aspects of life.

    25. MPMartin Picard1:04:56

        Yep.

    26. AHAndrew Huberman1:04:56

        I don't want to become the atrophied in one area and hypertrophied, to some great extent, in some other area human.

    27. MPMartin Picard1:05:02

        Yep.

    28. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:03

        So what are your thoughts on these, uh, through the lens of the results that you recently published-

    29. MPMartin Picard1:05:08

        Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

    30. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:08

        ... is it a trade-off?
16. 1:10:15 – 1:16:27

    Biology, Meaningful Experiences & Energy Flow

    1. MPMartin Picard1:10:15

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:15

       I'm so glad that biologists like you exist. I just wanna say that.

    3. MPMartin Picard1:10:18

       (laughs)

    4. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:18

       Uh, not just 'cause you're agreeing to be a public health educator, but, um, just i- it's incredible how much things have changed in the last few years in terms of the public awareness about biology and psychology.

    5. MPMartin Picard1:10:31

       Mm-hmm.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:32

       But I- I have the genuine sense that with you doing the kind of work that you're doing, that no longer are we going to be talking about the Eastern philosophy of energy versus, you know, mitochondria in a laboratory at some medical school, at an Ivy League medical school. But you're merging these ideas in, in real data. And I think it's gonna bring together ideas that have been in cooperation for a long time, but didn't realize it. And I think it's gonna transform human health-

    7. MPMartin Picard1:11:02

       Yeah.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:02

       ... because if we think about ourselves as energy transformation beings, we're gonna think pretty carefully about where we invest our time and energy. And also, I do think start to listen to our bodies more when we're feeling shut down. Like, what does that mean?

    9. MPMartin Picard1:11:16

       Mm-hmm.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:17

        You know? Uh, now we can't respond to everything as just a, "Well, does it give me energy, not give me energy?" Because we also have to build up some circuits to be proficient in life-

    11. MPMartin Picard1:11:26

        Mm-hmm.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:26

        ... that perhaps are inconvenient for us to build up.

    13. MPMartin Picard1:11:29

        Resistance.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:29

        But, but at the same time, I think there's a lot to be gained from this idea of, "Does something give me energy?"

    15. MPMartin Picard1:11:35

        Mm-hmm.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:35

        "Does this..." Uh, I think people, uh, confuse, like, drama and friction with certain people's... like, that's energy expenditure. That's not... uh, that's not a good transformation of energy.

    17. MPMartin Picard1:11:45

        Yeah.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:46

        And you hear about this stuff now-

    19. MPMartin Picard1:11:47

        Mm-hmm.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:47

        ... more in the psychology relationship space. People will say, "You know, they're not good for my nervous system." It's so funny how neuroscience is now-

    21. MPMartin Picard1:11:54

        (laughs)

    22. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:54

        ... you know-

    23. MPMartin Picard1:11:55

        Or the brain. (laughs)

    24. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:55

        ... or, or, "I just feel relaxed around them," or, "I can sleep next to them so comfortably."

    25. MPMartin Picard1:12:00

        Mm-hmm.

    26. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:00

        And, you know, we kinda write these things off as like, "Oh, that's cute. That's kinda woo." Uh-uh, this sounds like real biology if pushed through the lens of what you're telling us about mitochondria as energy-

    27. MPMartin Picard1:12:10

        Mm-hmm.

    28. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:10

        ... transformation units.

    29. MPMartin Picard1:12:11

        Yep. I think everything you just mentioned doesn't make much sense from this molecular biology lens that's really captured by medicine, right? Like, many years ago, 50 years ago or so, like, th- there was this wave of, "Whoa, the- there's DNA that exists, and there's, you know, proteins. We can sequence stuff. We can measure, you know, uh, the components of a cell, and we can look at things under the microscope, and we can, you know, scan the brain," and, like, all of those, um, um, assets that we were, you know, all of a sudden able to, to capture. It was really convincing, compelling. We built a whole research and, you know, academic science ecosystem around this. And I think as a... um, by, by nature, this reductionistic framework pushed aside the mind.Right? The- the-- all of the subjective experiences, uh, you know, it's in your head or, you know, whatever, all of this was pushed aside. So, the human experience is the most direct way in which you can know whether the content of your life matches your- your energy, right? And matches what matters for you and, uh, and what you really care about. Uh, so like (laughs) pushing aside, which is what biomedicine has done, pushing aside the mind and all of those subjective experience, I think has been really, um, damaging to understanding the basis of health and understanding what allows some people to be healthy for like a really long time and to live long, healthy lives and to live, you know, fulfilled lives. Um, we- we... (laughs) If we- if we think of ourselves as molecular machines, like there's no way we can make sense of this. And then we have consciousness, you know, research that's trying to make sense of- of these beautiful, uh, this beautiful spectrum of human experience, right? From like, I can't get up in the morning, like taking a shower is like too difficult and I'd rather die. Like this is one end of the spectrum. And then the other end is, oh my God, the world is so beautiful, I'm so grateful, I feel inspired to be a good person, um, and I can do good in this world, right? There- there's... And then everything in between. (laughs)

    30. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:15

        Mm-hmm.
17. 1:16:27 – 1:20:43

    Sponsor: Function

    1. MPMartin Picard1:16:27

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:16:27

       I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function. Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health. This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more. They've also recently added tests for toxins such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFASs or forever chemicals. Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas. For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood. Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC and acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification. And I should say by taking a second Function test, that approach worked. Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important. There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test. The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated. In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost. It is very affordable. As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman. Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function. What I think has been missing in this whole landscape of health, frankly, has been somebody who understands the different levels of analysis. Uh, a great neuroscientist at, uh, now at NYU once told me that, uh, a real intellectual, of which you are, is somebody that understands and can communicate something at multiple levels of granularity. That's very, very important. So I'm very reassured by everything I'm hearing and where this is taking us. Yeah.

Episode duration: 3:16:45