Navigating Conflict, Finding Purpose & Maintaining Drive | Dr Lex Fridman

Andrew Huberman 0:00 (instrumental music) Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. Today my guest is Dr. Lex Fridman. Dr. Lex Fridman is an expert in electrical and computer engineering, artificial intelligence, and robotics. He is also the host of The Lex Fridman Podcast, which initially started as a podcast focused on technology and science of various kinds, including computer science and physics, but rapidly evolved to include guests and other topics as a matter of focus, including sport. For instance, Dr. Lex Fridman is a black belt in Brazilian jiu-jitsu and he's had numerous guests on who come from the fields of Brazilian jiu-jitsu, both from the coaching side and from the competitor side. He also has shown an active interest in topics such as chess and essentially anything that involves intense activation and engagement of the mind and/or body. In fact, The Lex Fridman Podcast has evolved to take on very difficult topics such as mental health, he's had various psychiatrists and other guests on that relate to mental health and mental illness, as well as guests focused on geopolitics and some of the more controversial issues that face our times. He's had comedians, he's had scientists, he's had friends, he's had enemies on his podcast. Lex has a phenomenal, I would say a one in an eight billion ability to find these people, make them comfortable, and in that comfort, both try to understand them and to confront them and to push them so that we all learn. All of which is to say that Lex Fridman is no longer just an accomplished scientist. He certainly is that, but he has also become one of the more preeminent thought leaders on the planet, and if there's anything that really captures the essence of Lex Fridman, it's his love of learning, his desire to share with us the human experience and to broaden that experience so that we all may benefit. In many ways our discussion during today's episode captures the many facets of Lex Fridman, although no conversation, of course, could capture them all. We sit down to the conversation just days after Lex returned from Ukraine, where he deliberately placed himself into the tension of that environment in order to understand the geopolitics of the region and to understand exactly what was happening at the level of the ground and the people there. You may notice that he carries quite a lot of both emotion and knowledge and understanding, and yet in a very classic Lex Fridman way, you'll notice that he's able to zoom out of his own experience around any number of different topics and view them through a variety of lenses so that first of all everyone feel included, but most of all so that everyone learns something new, that is, to gain new perspective. Our discussion also ventures into the waters of social media and how that landscape is changing the way that science and technology are communicated. We also get into the topics of motivation, drive, and purpose, both finding it and executing on that drive and purpose. I should mention that this is episode 100 of the Huberman Lab Podcast, and I would be remiss if I did not tell you that there would be no Huberman Lab Podcast were it not for Lex Fridman. I was a fan of The Lex Fridman Podcast long before I was ever invited onto the podcast as a guest, and after our first recording, Lex was the one that suggested that I start a podcast. He only gave me two pieces of advice. The first piece of advice was, start a podcast, and the second piece of advice was that I not just make it me blabbing into the microphone and staring at the camera. So I can safely say that I at least followed half of his advice and that I am ever grateful for Lex both as a friend, a colleague in science, and now fellow podcaster for making the suggestion that we start this podcast. I already mentioned a few of the topics covered on today's podcast, but I can assure you that there is far more to the person that many of us know as Lex Fridman. If you are somebody interested in artificial intelligence, engineering, or robotics, today's discussion is most certainly for you. And if you are not but you are somebody who is interested in world politics and more importantly the human experience, both the individual and the collective human experience, Lex shares what can only be described as incredible insights into what he views as the human experience and what is optimal in order to derive from our time on this planet. Before

Andrew Huberman 4:30 we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is LMNT. LMNT is an electrolyte drink with everything you need and nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes, sodium, potassium, and magnesium, are in LMNT in the correct ratios, but that it has no sugar. As I mentioned before on the podcast, electrolytes are critical to the function of every cell in the body, and especially the cells in your brain, meaning the neurons or nerve cells. Indeed, the ability for nerve cells to be active and communicate with one another critically depends on sodium, potassium, and magnesium. You can get electrolytes from a variety of sources, but it's often hard to get them in the proper ratios, even from food. So if you're somebody who's exercising a lot and sweating, or if you're somebody following, for instance, a low-carbohydrate or even a semi-low-carbohydrate diet, that will cause you to excrete electrolytes. I tend to have my LMNT first thing in the morning when I wake up, or within the first few hours of waking, any time while or after I'm exercising or I've sweat a lot such as exiting the sauna. If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to DrinkLMNT, that's L-M-N-T.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with your purchase. Again, that's Drink LMNT, L-M-N-T.com/huberman to cla- a free sample pack. Today's episode is also brought to us by Levels. Levels is a program that lets you see how different foods affect your health by giving you real-time feedback on your diet using a continuous glucose monitor. Now blood glucose or blood sugar is a critical aspect of your immediate and long-term health, and indeed, your feelings of vigor and mental clarity and wellbeing at any moment. One of the key things is to know how different foods and food combinations and timing of food intake is impacting blood glucose, and with Levels, you're able to assess all of that in real time.I tried Levels and what it taught me, for instance, was that I can eat certain foods at certain times of day, but if I eat them at other times of day, I get a blood sugar crash. It also taught me, for instance, how to space my exercise and my food intake. Turns out for me, exercising fasted is far more beneficial. That's something I learned using Levels and it's completely transformed not just the spacing and timing of my diet and exercise, but also use of things like the sauna and other activities. It's been a tremendous learning for me that's really shaped an enormous number of factors in my life that have led to me feeling far more vigorous, with far more mental focus and physical strength and endurance. So if you're interested in learning more about Levels and trying a continuous glucose monitor yourself, go to levels.link/huberman. Again, that's levels.link, L-I-N-K, /huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep. Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity. I've talked many times on this podcast about the critical relationship between sleep and body temperature. That is, in order to fall asleep and stay deeply asleep throughout the night, our body temperature needs to drop by about one to three degrees. And conversely, when we wake up in the morning, that is in large part because of our body heating up by one to three degrees. Now, people have different core body temperatures and they tend to run colder or hotter throughout the night. Eight Sleep allows you to adjust the temperature of your sleeping environment so that you have the optimal temperature that gets you the best night's sleep. I started sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover about eight months ago and it has completely transformed my sleep. I sleep so much deeper, I wake up far less during the middle of the night, if at all, and I wake up feeling far better than I ever have, even after the same amount of sleep. If you want to try Eight Sleep, you can go to eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $400 off their Sleep Fit Holiday Bundle, which includes their new Pod 3 cover. Eight Sleep currently ships in the USA, Canada, United Kingdom, select countries in the EU, and Australia. Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman. And now for my discussion with Dr. Lex

Andrew Huberman 8:28 Fridman. Welcome back. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 8:30 (laughs) It's good to be back in a bedroom. This feels like a porn set. I apologize to open that way.

Andrew Huberman 8:36 Oh.

Lex Fridman 8:36 I've never been in a porn set, so I should admit this.

Andrew Huberman 8:39 Our studio is being renovated, so-

Lex Fridman 8:41 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 8:41 ... here we are for the monumental recording of episode 100-

Lex Fridman 8:46 Episode 100.

Andrew Huberman 8:47 ... of the Huberman Lab Podcast, which was inspired by the Lex Fridman Podcast. Some people already know this story, but I'll repeat it again for those that don't. There would not be a Huberman Lab Podcast were it not for Lex Fridman, because after recording, uh, as a guest on his podcast a few years ago, he made the suggestion that I start a podcast and he explained to me how it works and he said, "You should start a podcast, but just make sure that it's not you blabbing the whole time, Andrew," and I only sort of followed the advice.

Lex Fridman 9:18 Yeah. Well, you surprised, surprised me, surprised the world that you're able to talk for hours and cite some of the best science going on and be able to give people advice without many interruptions or edits or any of that. I mean, that takes an incredible amount of skill that you're probably born with and some of it is developed. I mean, the, the whole science community is, is proud of you, man. Stanford is proud of you. So yeah, it's, it's a beautiful thing. It was really surprising 'cause it's unclear how a scientist can do a great podcast that's not just shooting the shit about random stuff, but really is giving very structured, good advice that's, uh, boiling down the state-of-the-art science into something that's actually useful for people. So that, that was impressive. I was like, "Holy shit, he actually pulled this off." And doing it every week on a different topic. That, I mean, you know, um, n- usually positive, especially for people I love and support, but damn, I thought, "There's no way he's gonna be able to pull this off week after week." And he's been only getting better and better and better. I had a whole rant on a recent podcast, I forget with who, of how awesome you are with, uh, Rana el Kaliouby. She's a emotion recognition person, AI person, and then she didn't know, uh, who you were and I was like, "What the hell do you mean you don't..." And I just went on this whole rant of how awesome you are. It was, it was hilarious.

Andrew Huberman 10:43 Oh, well, I'm-

Lex Fridman 10:44 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 10:44 ... very gratified to hear this. Um, uh, it's, uh, a little uncomfortable for me to hear, but listen, I'm, I'm just really happy if people are getting information that they like and can make actionable. And it was inspired by you. And look, right back at you, I, um, I've followed a number of your structural formats, uh, attire. I don't wear a tie. I'm constantly reminded about this by my father who says-

Lex Fridman 11:09 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 11:09 ... w- he saw my podcast and he was like, "Why don't you dress properly like your friend Lex?" He literally said that. Um, and, uh, it's a debate that goes back and forth. But nonetheless, um...

Lex Fridman 11:19 How does it feel? Episode 100. How does it feel?

Andrew Huberman 11:22 You know, I think we-

Lex Fridman 11:22 Can you imagine you're s- you're here, you're here after so many episodes and done so much? I mean, the number of hours w- is just insane. The amount of passion, the amount of work you put into this. What's it feel like?

Andrew Huberman 11:34 Um, it feels great. Um, and it feels very much like the, the horizon is still at the same distance in front of me, you know? Every episode I just try and g- get information there and the process, we talked about it on your podcast so we won't go into it, of, um, collecting information, distilling it down to some simple notes, walking around, listening to music, trying to, you know, um, figure out what the motifs are and then as, just like you, I don't use a teleprompter or anything like that. There's very minimal notes. So it feels great and I love it, and again, I'm just grateful to you, uh, for inspiring it and I just want to keep going and do more of it. And

Andrew Huberman 12:12 I should say, I am also relieved that we're sitting here because you recently went overseas to a very, um, intense war zone literally, the Ukraine, and, um, the entire time that you were there, uh, I was genuinely concerned. Um, you know, the world's a-...unpredictable place in general and, uh, we don't always get the only vote in what happens to us. So first of all, welcome back, safely, one piece, one alive piece, and, um, what was that like? I mean, at a, at a broad level, at a specific level, um, what drew you there? What surprised you? And, um, how do you think it changed you in, in coming back here?

Lex Fridman 12:57 I think there's a lot to say, but first, it is really good to be back. One of the things that when you go to a difficult part of the world or a part of the world that's going through something difficult, you really appreciate how great it is to be an American. Everything. The easy access to food, despite what people think, the, uh, stable, reliable rule of law. The lack of corruption in that you can trust that if you start a business or if you take on various pursuits in life that there's not going to be, at scale, manipulation of your efforts such that you can't succeed, so this kinda... You know, capitalism in its, in its, um... The ideal of capitalism is really still burning bright in this country and it really makes you appreciate those aspects. And also just the, um, ability to have a home for generations acro- across generations. So you can have a... Your grandfather live in, I don't know, Kentucky in a certain city and then, uh, his children live there and you live there and then you... It just continues on and on. That's the kind of thing you can have when you don't have war, 'cause war destroys entire communities. It, it destroys histories, generations, like life stories that stretch across the generations. So-

Andrew Huberman 14:21 Yeah, yeah. We didn't even think about that until you said just now, but photographs-

Lex Fridman 14:25 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 14:25 ...hard drives get destroyed or just abandoned, right?

Lex Fridman 14:28 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 14:28 Libraries. Um, I mean, nowadays things exist in the cloud, but there are still a lot of-

Lex Fridman 14:34 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 14:34 ...material goods that have, you know, are irreplaceable, right?

Lex Fridman 14:37 Well, e- even, you know, in rural parts of the United States, they don't exist in the cloud, right? A lot of people still... Well, even in towns, they still love the physical photo album of your family. A lot of people still store their photographs of families in the sto- the, uh, VHS tapes and all that kind of stuff, yeah. But I think there's so many things I've learned and really felt the lessons, one of which is nobody gives a damn when your photos are gone and all that kind of stuff, your house is gone. The thing time and time again I saw with the people that lost everything is how happy they are for the people they love. The, the friends, the family that are still alive. That's the only thing they talk about. That, um... In fact, they don't mention actually with much dramatic, uh, sort of vigor about the trauma of losing your home. They're just non-stop saying how lucky they are that person X, person Y is still here. And that makes you realize that when you lose everything, it still... It makes you realize what really matters, which is the people in your life. And a lot of people kind of realize that later in life when you're facing mortality, wh- when you're facing your death or f- you know, you get a cancer diagnosis, that kind of stuff. I think people here in America, in California was with the fires, you, uh, you can still lose your home and you realize like, nah, it doesn't really matter. It's a pain in the ass, but what matters is still, uh, the, the family, the people, and so on. I, I think the most intense thing... I talked to several hundred people, some of which is recorded. I've really been struggling to put that out 'cause I have to edit it myself and so it's... You're talking about 30, 40 hours of footage and it-

Andrew Huberman 16:30 Is emotionally struggling-

Lex Fridman 16:32 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 16:32 ...is it emotional struggle?

Lex Fridman 16:33 It's extremely difficult. So I talked to a lot of politicians, the number two in the country, number three. I'll be back there to talk to the president, to do a three-hour conversation. Those are easy to edit, you know. They're, um, they're really heartfelt and thoughtful folks from different perspectives on the geopolitics of the war. But the ones that're really hard to edit is like grandmas that are like in the middle of nowhere. They lost everything. They still have hope. They still have love. And some of them have, some of them, many of them unfortunately, have now hate in their heart. So in February when, uh, Russia invaded Ukraine, this is the thing I realized about war. One of the most painful one lessons is that war creates generational hate. It, you know, we sometimes think about war as a thing that kills people, kills civilians, kills soldiers, takes away lives, injures people. But we don't directly think about the, uh, the secondary and tertiary effects of that which lasts decades, which is anyone who's lost a father or a mother or a daughter or a son, they now hate the... Not just the individual soldiers or the leaders that invaded their country, but the entirety of the people. So it's not that they hate, uh, Vladimir Putin or hate the Russian military, they hate Russian people. So that tears the fabric of a thing that, for me, you know, my, my... Half my family's from Ukraine, half my family is from Russia, but there's a... I remember (laughs) the pain, the triumph of World War II still resonates through my entire family tree, and so you remember when the Russians and Ukrainians fought together against this Nazi invasion. You, you remember a lot of that-And now to see the fabric of this, uh, people's torn apart completely with hate is very, really, really difficult for me just to realize that things will just never be the same on this particular cultural historical aspect. But also there's so many painful ways in which things will never be the same, which is we've seen that it's possible to have a major hot war in the 21st century. I think a lot of people are watching this. China is watching this, India is watching this, United States is watching this and thinking, "We can actually have a large-scale war." And I think the lessons learned from that might be the kind that lead to a major World War III in the 21st century. So like one of the things I realized watching the whole scene is that we don't know shit about what's going to happen in the 21st century and it might... We kind of have this intuition like, surely there's not going to be another war.

Andrew Huberman 19:33 Like, we'll just coast.

Lex Fridman 19:34 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 19:35 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 19:35 Yeah, pandemic, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 19:38 Back to normal.

Lex Fridman 19:38 Back to normal.

Andrew Huberman 19:39 Whatever that is.

Lex Fridman 19:40 But you have to remember, at the end of World War I, you know, as, uh, Woodrow Wilson called it, uh, the war to end all wars, nobody in a... Ironically, in a dark way, it was also the, the roaring '20s when people believed this, there will never be another world war. And 20 years after that, the, the rise of Nazi Germany, uh, the, a charismatic leader that captivated the minds of millions and built up a military that can take on the, the whole world. And so it makes you realize that this is still possible. This is still possible. And then the, the tension you, you see the, this, uh, the media machine, the propaganda machine that I've gotten to see every aspect of, it's still fueling that division between America and China, between Russia and India, and then Africa has a complicated thing that's trying to figure out who are they with, who are they against, and just this tension is building and building. And like it makes you realize, like, we might... The thing that might shake human civilization may not be so far off. That, that's a realization you get to really feel. Um, I mean, there's l- all kinds of other lessons and one of which is propaganda, is I got to, um, I get a lot of letters, emails, and, uh, some of them are full of really intense language, full of hate from every side-

Andrew Huberman 21:13 Toward...

Lex Fridman 21:14 ... me. Uh, or t- well, the hate is towards me as representing side X, and X stands as a variable for every side. So either I'm a Zelensky show or I'm a Putin show or I'm a NATO show or I'm an a- America, uh, America show, Am- American empire show, or I'm a D- uh, Democrat or a Republican 'cause it's already been, in this country, politicized. I think there's a sense of Ukraine is this place that's full of corruption. Why are we sending money there? I think, so that's kind of the messaging on the, on the Republican side. On the Democratic side... I, I, I'm not even keeping, uh, track of the actual messaging and the conspiracy theories and, and the narratives, but they are... The tension is there and I get to feel it directly. And what you get to really experience is there's a large number of narratives that all are extremely confident in themselves that they know the truth. People are convinced, first of all, that they're not being lied to. People in Russia think there's no propaganda. They think that, "Yes, yes, there's like state-sponsored propaganda, but we're all smart enough to ignore the, the, um, the sort of lame propaganda that's everywhere." They know that, "We can think on our own. We kn- we know the truth." And everybody kind of speaks in this way. Everybody in the United States says, "Well, yes, there's mainstream media. They're full of messaging and propaganda, but we, we're smart. We can think on our own. Of course, we see through that." Ev- everybody says this and then the conclusion of their thought is often hatred towards some group.

Andrew Huberman 22:59 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 22:59 Whatever that group is. And the more you've lost, the more intense the, the, the feeling of hatred. It's a really t- difficult, um, field to walk through calmly and with an open mind and, and try to understand what's really going on.

Andrew Huberman 23:16 It's

Andrew Huberman 23:17 a, it's super intense. That's the only words that come to mind, um, as I hear this. You mentioned something that it seems that hate generalizes, you know, it's against an entire group or an entire country. Uh, why do you think it is that hate generalizes and that love may or may not generalize? Um...

Lex Fridman 23:38 I, I've had... So one of the, as you can imagine, (laughs) the kind of question I asked is, "Do you have love or hate in your heart?" It's a question I ask almost everybody, and then I would dig into this exact question that you're asking. I think w- some of the most beautiful things I've heard, which is people that are full of hate are a- able to self-introspect about it. They, they know they shouldn't feel it but they can't help it. It's not... They know that ultimately the thing that helps them and helps everyone is to feel love for fellow man, but they're, they've, they can't help it. They know... It's like a drug. They say, like, hate, um, escalates. Uh, it's like a vicious spiral. You just can't help it. And the question I also asked is, "Do you think you'll ever be able to forgive Russia?" And after much thought, almost-L- it's, uh, it's split, but most people will say, "No. I will never be able to forgive."

Andrew Huberman 24:46 And because of the generalization you talked about earlier, that could even include all Ru-

Lex Fridman 24:50 All Russians.

Andrew Huberman 24:50 ... in that statement they mean all Russians.

Lex Fridman 24:52 Because, um, because if you do nothing that's as bad or worse than, uh, than, than being part of the army that invades. So the, the people there just sitting there, the good Germans, the people that are just quietly going on with their lives, you're just as bad, if not worse, is their perspective.

Andrew Huberman 25:19 Earlier you said that, uh, going over to the Ukrainians r- now, um, allowed you to realize just so many of the positives of being here in the United States. Um, I have a good friend, we both know him, I won't name him by name, but we communicated, the three of us, from tier one special operations. He spent years doing deployments, really, uh, amazing individual. And I remember when the pandemic hit he said on a text thread, "You know, Americans aren't used to the government interfering with their plans." You know, around the world many people are familiar with governments dramatically interfering with their plans, sometimes what, even in a seemingly random way. Here, we were not braced for that. There are, I mean, they're there, we get speeding tickets and there's uh, (laughs) you know, lines to vote and things like that. But uh, I think the pandemic was one of the first times, at least in my life that I can remember, where it really seemed like the government was impeding what people naturally wanted to do. And that was a shock for people here. And um, I have a, um, what might seem like

Andrew Huberman 26:23 a somewhat mundane question but it's something that I saw on social media a lot of people were asking me to ask you and, um, and I was curious about too. Uh, what was a typical day like over there? Were you sleeping in a bed? Were you sleeping on the ground?

Lex Fridman 26:37 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 26:38 Everyone seems to want to know what were you eating? Were you eating once a day? Were you eating your steak or were you, were you in fairly deprived conditions over there? I saw a couple, um, photos that you posted with, um, out of doors, in front of rubble, um, pith helmet on in one case, you know, uh, what w- what was a typical day like over there?

Lex Fridman 27:00 So there's, there's two modes. One of them I spent a lot of time in Kiev, which is much safer than, uh, it may be obvious to state, but for people who don't know, it's in the middle of the country and it's much safer than the actual front that the, where the battle is happening. So the much, much safer than Kiev even is Lviv which is the western part of the country. So the times I spent in Kiev were fundamentally different than the time I spent at the front. And I went to the Kherson region which is where a lot of really heated battle was happening. There's several areas. So there's Kharkiv, it's in the northeast of the country, and then there's Donbas region which is east of the country, and then there's Kherson region which, uh, by the way I'm not good at geography so, uh, is the southeast of the country and that's where, at least when I was there, was a lot of really heated fighting happening. So when I was in the Kherson region there's, uh, you know, it's what you would imagine. The place, I stayed at a hotel where all the lights have to st- stay off, so the entire town, all the lights are off. You have to kind of navigate through the darkness and use your phone to shine and so on.

Andrew Huberman 28:16 This is terrible for the circadian system.

Lex Fridman 28:18 Yeah. That's exactly... I was, this, how can I do this? Where's my LMNT and Athletic Greens? How can I function? No, uh, (laughs) so there's, uh, I think it was balanced by the deep appreciation of being alive. (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 28:33 Right, no, I, I mean, this is the reason I asked-

Lex Fridman 28:35 Stress-wise.

Andrew Huberman 28:35 This is the reason I ask is, you know, we, we get used to all these creature comforts-

Lex Fridman 28:39 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 28:40 ... and, um, we don't need them but we often come to depend on them in a way that makes us feel like we need them.

Lex Fridman 28:47 Yeah, but very quickly, there's something about the intensity of life that you see in people's eyes c- 'cause they've been living through war, that makes you forget all those creature comforts. And it's a, it was actually, um, you know, I'm somebody who hates traveling and so on. I love the creature, uh, habits. I love, I love, uh, the comfort of the ritual, right? But all of that was forgotten very quickly. Just the, the intensity of feeling, the intensity of love that people have for each other. That was, that was obvious. In terms of food, so there's a curfew. Uh, so depends on what part of the country but usually you basically have to scammer home at like 9:00 PM. So the hard curfew in a lot of places is 11:00 PM at night, but by then you, like, you have to be home. So, uh, in some places it's 10:00. So you, y- at 9:00 PM you start, uh, going home which for me was, was kind of wonderful also because I get to spend, um, I get to be, uh, forced to spend time alone and think for many hours in, uh, wherever I'm staying which, which is really nice and every, there's a calmness and a quietness to the whole thing. In terms of food, once a day, uh, just, uh, the food is incredibly cheap and incredibly delicious. People are still, one of the things they can still take pride in is, um, making the best possible food they can. So meat, but they do admire American meat so the meat is not as great as it could be in that country. But I ate borscht every day, you know, all that kind of stuff. Mostly meat. So spend the entire day, wake up in the morning with coffee, spend the entire day talking to people which for, for me is very difficult-... because of the intensity of the stories, one after the other after the other. We just talked to regular people, talked to soldiers, talked to politicians, um, all kinds of soldiers. I talked to people there who are doing rescue missions, so Americans. I hu- I hu- hung out with, uh, Tim Kennedy. Oh, yeah. Um- The great Tim Kennedy. (laughs) The great Tim Kennedy- Yeah. ... who, uh, uh, also w- him and many others revealed to me one of the many reasons I'm proud to be an American is how, um, tr- trained and skilled and, uh, effective American soldiers are. I

Andrew Huberman 31:19 Yeah. I guess for pe- for listeners of this podcast, maybe we should familiarize them with who Tim Kennedy is-

Lex Fridman 31:23 Tim Kennedy.

Andrew Huberman 31:23 ... 'cause I realize that a number of them will know, but, um-

Lex Fridman 31:25 How do you do that? How, how do you try to summarize a man?

Andrew Huberman 31:28 Y- uh, right. In, in, uh, uh, uh, let's see, we can be accurate but not exhaustive, as-

Lex Fridman 31:33 Sure.

Andrew Huberman 31:33 ... as any good, uh, uh, good data are accurate but not exhaustive. Um, very skilled and accomplished MMA fighter, very skilled and accomplished spec- former special operations member, um, American patriot, and, uh, podcaster too, right? Does he have his own podcast?

Lex Fridman 31:49 Maybe.

Andrew Huberman 31:50 Okay.

Lex Fridman 31:50 Maybe.

Andrew Huberman 31:51 We know Andy Stumpf has his own podcast.

Lex Fridman 31:53 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 31:53 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 31:53 Which is an amazing podcast.

Andrew Huberman 31:54 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 31:54 Yeah. Andy's great.

Andrew Huberman 31:55 Yeah. Um, Clearing Hot Podcast with Andy Stumpf is an amazing podcast.

Lex Fridman 31:58 But also Tim Kennedy is like, uh, the embodiment of America and to the, to the most beautiful and the most ridiculous degree. So he's like, um, would you imagine, uh, what is it, Team America? That (laughs) like, um, I just imagine him like shirtless on a tank rolling into enemy territory just screaming at the top of his lungs. That's just his personality. He-

Andrew Huberman 32:21 But not posturing. That's a, he actually-

Lex Fridman 32:22 Yeah. Uh, he-

Andrew Huberman 32:23 He actually does the work, as they say.

Lex Fridman 32:24 So th- this is the thing.

Andrew Huberman 32:25 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 32:25 He really embodies that.

Andrew Huberman 32:27 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 32:27 Now, some of that is just his personality and humor, uh, I'd like to sort of comment on the humor of things, not just with him. It's very, one other interesting thing I've learned. But, uh, also when he's actually helping people, he's extremely good at what he does, which is building teams that rescue, that go into the most dangerous areas of Ukraine, d- dangerous areas anywhere else and they get the job done. And w- one of the things I heard time and time again, which, which really interesting to me, that Ukrainian soldiers said that, w- you know, comparing Ukrainian, Russian, and American soldiers, American soldiers are the bravest. Which was very interesting for me to hear given how high the morale is for the Ukrainian soldiers, but that just reveals that training enables you to be brave. So it's not just about how well-trained they are and so on. It's how intense and ferocious they are in the fighting, and it makes you realize like this is American army, not just through the technology, uh, especially the special, special force guys. They still is one of the most effective and terrifying armies in the world. And I'm, listen, just for context, I'm somebody who is, for the most part, anti-war, a pacifist. But you get to see, um, you know, some of the realities of war kind of wake you up to what needs to get done to protect, um, sovereignty, to protect some of the values, to protect, uh, civilians in homes and all that kind of stuff. Sometimes, you know, war has to happen. And I should also mention on the Russian side, because, uh, while I haven't gotten to experience the Russian side yet, I do fully plan to travel to Russia. As I've told everybody, I was very upfront with everybody, uh, about this. I, I would like to hear the story of Russians. But I do know from the Ukrainian side, like the grandmas, I love grandmas, they told me stories that the Russians really, the ones that entered their villages, they really, really believe they're saving Ukraine from Nazis, from Nazi occupation. So they feel that there's the, uh, Ukraine is under control of Nazi organizations and they're, they believe they're saving a country that's their brother's and sister's. So I think, I think propaganda and I think, um, truth is a very difficult thing to arrive in s- in that, in that war zone. I think in the 21st century one of the things you realize that so much of war, even more so than in the past, is an information war. And, uh, people that just use Twitter for their source of information might be surprised to, to know how much misinformation there is on Twitter, like real, um, narratives being sold, and it's, so it's really hard to know who to believe. And through all of that, you have to try to keep an open mind and ul- ultimately ignore the powerful and listen to actual citizens, actual people. That's the other maybe obvious lesson is that, um, war is waged by powerful rich people and it's the poor people that suffer, and that's just visible time and time again.

Andrew Huberman 35:50 You mentioned the fact that people still enjoy food or the pleasure of cooking or there's occasional humor or maybe frequent humor. I know Jocko Willink has talked about this in, in warfare and the, that the, all the elements of the human spirit and condition still emerge at various times. Find this amazing, and you and I have had conversations about this before, but the, the aperture of the mind, you know. Um, you know, the, the classic story that comes to mind is, uh, you know, the one of Viktor Frankl or Nelson Mandela. You know, you put somebody into a small box of confinement and some people break under those conditions and other people find, uh, entire stories within a c- centimeter of concrete that can l- you know, occupy them and, and real stories and richness or humor or love or fascination and surprise, and I find this so interesting that the mind is so adaptable. You know, we talked about creature comforts and then lack of creature comforts and the way that, uh, we can adapt and, and yet humans are always striving, it seems or one would hope, for these better conditions, to better their conditions.So as you come back and you've been here now, back in the, in the States for how long after your trip?

Lex Fridman 37:03 Uh, depends when this podcast releases, but it, it, uh, felt like I've never left so, um, practically speaking a couple of months.

Andrew Huberman 37:11 Okay. Yeah, and we won't be sure, we're recording this mid-September so um, but-

Lex Fridman 37:15 We actually recorded this several years ago-

Andrew Huberman 37:18 (laughs) .

Lex Fridman 37:18 ... so we're anticipating the future.

Andrew Huberman 37:19 This is where we're gonna start telling you this is a simulation. (laughs) You and Joe. (laughs) .

Lex Fridman 37:24 (laughs) .

Andrew Huberman 37:24 I'm still trying to figure out what that actually means.

Lex Fridman 37:26 (laughs) .

Andrew Huberman 37:27 I'd like to

Andrew Huberman 37:28 take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Athletic Greens. Athletic Greens, now called AG1, is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that covers all of your foundational nutritional needs. I've been taking Athletic Greens since 2012 so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast. The reason I started taking Athletic Greens and the reason I still take Athletic Greens once or usually twice a day is that it gets me the probiotics that I need for gut health. Our gut is very important, it's populated by gut microbiota that communicate with the brain, the immune system, and basically all the biological systems of our body to strongly impact our immediate and long-term health. And those probiotics in Athletic Greens are optimal and vital for microbiotic health. In addition, Athletic Greens contains a number of adaptogens, vitamins and minerals that make sure that all of my foundational nutritional needs are met and it tastes great. If you'd like to try Athletic Greens you can go to athleticgreens.com/huberman and they'll give you five free travel packs that make it really easy to mix up Athletic Greens while you're on the road, in the car, on the plane et cetera. And they'll give you a year supply of vitamin D3K2. Again, that's athleticgreens.com/huberman to get the five free travel packs and the year supply of vitamin D3K2.

Andrew Huberman 38:42 I know I speak for many people when I say that we are very happy that you're back. We know that it's not gonna be the first and last trip, that there will be others, um, and that you'll be going to Russia as well and presumably other places as well, um, in order to explore. And I have to say as a podcaster and as your friend, um, I was really inspired that, at your sense of adventure, um, and your sense of not just adventure but thoughtful, respectful adventure. You understood what you were doing. You weren't just going there to get some wartime footage or something. This wasn't a kick or a thrill, this was really serious and remains serious. Um, so thank you for doing it and, um, please, uh, next time you go bring Tim Kennedy, uh, a- again (laughs) .

Lex Fridman 39:26 I feel like, I feel like Tim Kennedy gets into, will, will take... 'Cause he really loves going to the most dangerous places-

Andrew Huberman 39:32 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 39:32 ... and helping people so I think he'll get me into more trouble than it's worth. And I should mention that I, I mean, there's many reasons I went but it's definitely not something I take lightly or want to do again (laughs) .

Andrew Huberman 39:45 Right.

Lex Fridman 39:45 So I'm doing things that I don't want to do, I just feel like I have to.

Andrew Huberman 39:49 You're compelled.

Lex Fridman 39:50 So I don't think there's... Now I'll definitely talk about it as we all should, there's different areas of the world that are seeing a lot of suffering. Yemen. Th- th- there's so many atrocities going on in the world today, but this one is just, uh, personal to me so I want to... I feel like I'm qualified just because of the language. So most of the talking, by the way, I've been, I was doing it, it was in Russian. And so because of the language, because of the, my history I felt like I had to do this particular thing. I think it's in many ways stupid and dangerous and that was made clear to me but I do many things of this nature because the heart says, pulls, um, pulls towards that. But also there's a, there's a freedom to not... You know, I'm afraid of death but I think there's a freedom to, uh, it's almost like okay, if I die I want to take full advantage of not having a family currently. I feel like when you have a family you, there's a responsibility for others so you immediately become more conservative and careful. I feel like I, I want to take full advantage of this particular moment in my life when you can be a little bit more accepting of risk.

Andrew Huberman 41:05 Oh.

Lex Fridman 41:05 And so...

Andrew Huberman 41:06 Well you should definitely reproduce at some point. Um, maybe ne- before next time you should just freeze some sperm.

Lex Fridman 41:12 I, um-

Andrew Huberman 41:13 Really, I mean-

Lex Fridman 41:14 Is that, is that what you do with the ice baths? Is that how that works?

Andrew Huberman 41:16 You know, it's interesting. Here's a, there's always an opportunity (laughs) to do some science protocols. You know th- there are products on the internet and there are actually a few decent manuscripts looking at how cold exposure can increase testosterone levels. But it doesn't happen by d- the cold directly. A good scientist says the authors of those papers were and are, realize that it's the vasoconstriction and then the, um, vasodilation, you know, as it, as people warm up again there's increased blood flow to the testicles. And in women it seems there's probably increased blood flow to the reproductive organs as well after people warm back up. So that seems to cause some sort of hyper-nourishment of the, of the various cells, the, um, sertoli and leydig cells of the testes that lead to increased output of testosterone and in women, um, testosterone as well. So, uh, the cold exposure in any case, um, is obviously a... Do, do you do the ice bath? Are you into that?

Lex Fridman 42:11 I have not done any.

Andrew Huberman 42:12 As a Russian you probably consider that a w- a hot tub.

Lex Fridman 42:15 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's, it's a nice thing to, uh, have fun with every once in a while, uh, to warm up. No, I haven't done it. I've been kind of waiting to maybe do it together with you at some point.

Andrew Huberman 42:26 Great, well-

Lex Fridman 42:26 'Cause I have a guide.

Andrew Huberman 42:28 ... we have one here. No, we have one here.

Lex Fridman 42:28 (laughs) .

Andrew Huberman 42:29 Uh, it'll be straightforward for you.

Lex Fridman 42:30 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 42:30 I always say that the adrenaline comes in waves and so if you just think about it, walls, like you're going through a number of walls of adrenaline as opposed to going for time, becomes rather trivial. With your jiu-jitsu background and whatnot you'll immediately recognize the physiological sensation even though it, it's cold specifically it's the adrenaline that makes you want to hop out of the thing.

Lex Fridman 42:47 And, uh, you've seen Joe's, uh, so Joe set up a really nice-

Andrew Huberman 42:50 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 42:51 ... uh, man cave. Or it's, it's not even a cave 'cause it's so big. It's like a, a network of man caves. But it has a ice bath and a sauna-... next to each other, so.

Andrew Huberman 43:03 Well, we have one of those here, ice bath and sauna, so we'll have to get you in it when, uh... one of these days.

Lex Fridman 43:08 Sounds like trouble.

Andrew Huberman 43:08 Maybe tonight, maybe tomorrow. (laughs) No, though there is a, a, um... I don't know the underlying physiological basis, but there does seem to be a, a trend toward truth-telling in the sauna. Um, some people refer to them as truth barrels. Mine's a barrel sauna, shaped like a barrel. Who knows why? Maybe under intense heat duress people just, uh, feel compelled to share. They-

Lex Fridman 43:28 Well, I have a complicated relationship with saunas because of all the weight cutting.

Andrew Huberman 43:32 Oh. And-

Lex Fridman 43:33 Some, some of the deepest suffering, sorry to interrupt, I've done was in the sauna. It's very, it's... I mean, I've gone to some dark places in the sauna 'cause I-

Andrew Huberman 43:41 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 43:42 ... I wrestled my whole life, judo-

Andrew Huberman 43:44 Right.

Lex Fridman 43:44 ... jujitsu.

Andrew Huberman 43:45 Right.

Lex Fridman 43:45 And those weight cuts, uh, can really test the mind. So you're, you're... and truth-telling. Yeah, it's a certain kind of truth-telling 'cause you're sitting there and the clock moves slower than it has ever moved in your life. Yeah, so I usually, for the most part, I would try to, you know, have a bunch of sweats, garbage bags, and all that kinda stuff, and run. It's easier 'cause you can distract the mind. In the sauna, you can't distract the mind. It's just you and all the excuses and all the, the, all the weaknesses in your mind just coming to the surface, and you're just sitting there and s- sweating, or not sweating. That's the worst.

Andrew Huberman 44:23 And talk about visual aperture, you're in a small box so it also inspires some claustrophobia.

Lex Fridman 44:27 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 44:27 Even if you're not claustrophobic.

Lex Fridman 44:29 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 44:29 Um, that's absolutely true. And the desire to just get out of the thing is where the adre- you get a pretty serious adrenaline surge from, from, in the sauna as well. It, um... Now, the sauna actually will, it won't deplete testosterone but it kills sperm. So for people that... S- sperm are on a 60-day sperm cycle, so if you're trying to donate sperm or, 'cause that's what got us onto this, or fertilize, um, an egg or eggs, in whatever format, dish or in vivo as we say in science, that which means, uh... Well, you can look it up, (laughs) folks. Um, uh, the 60-day sperm cycle, so if you go into a really hot sauna, um, or a hot bath or a hot tub, your sp- in 60 days, those sperm are going to be, um, a significantly greater portion of them will be dead, will be non-viable. Um, so there's a simple solution. People just put an ice pack down there, um, or, you know, a jar, not this jar, but, um-

Lex Fridman 45:22 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 45:22 ... a jar of cold fluid, you know, between their legs and just, uh, sit there and, or they go back and forth between the ice bath and the sauna. But y- you probably, if you're gonna go back over there, um, you should freeze sperm. Um, we're gonna do a couple episodes on fertility when it's re- relatively inexpensive, and you're young so you should probably do it now 'cause there is a, uh, association with autism as, um, males get older. It's not a strong one. It's significant, but it's still a small contribution to the autism phenotype.

Lex Fridman 45:47 So don't, as you age, don't sperm get wiser, or no?

Andrew Huberman 45:50 Mm. No.

Lex Fridman 45:50 There's no science to back that?

Andrew Huberman 45:52 No, but, you know, men can conceive healthy children at a pretty considerable-

Lex Fridman 45:55 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 45:55 ... age, but, um, in any case, um, (laughs) but no, they don't get wiser. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 46:00 It's like a-

Andrew Huberman 46:00 What happens is interesting.

Lex Fridman 46:01 ... climbing age stake.

Andrew Huberman 46:02 Well, it's a little bit like, uh, like the maturation of the brain in the sense that some of the sperm get much better at swimming and then many of them get, get less good. Motility is a, is a strong correlate of the DNA in the sperm.

Lex Fridman 46:12 This is probably a good time to announce that I'm selling my sperm as an NFTs.

Andrew Huberman 46:17 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 46:18 I wish to see how much that, uh-

Andrew Huberman 46:19 Oh my goodness.

Lex Fridman 46:20 ... riding the, uh-

Andrew Huberman 46:21 Well, your children-

Lex Fridman 46:22 ... crypto wave.

Andrew Huberman 46:22 ... your future children and my future children are supposed to do jujitsu together-

Lex Fridman 46:26 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 46:26 ... since I've only done the one jujitsu class. So, um, I'm strongly vested in, uh, you having children.

Lex Fridman 46:31 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 46:32 Um, but only in the friendly kind of way. Um-

Lex Fridman 46:36 Well, yes, f- friendly competition kind of way, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 46:39 Right, right.

Lex Fridman 46:39 Dominance of the clan, yep.

Andrew Huberman 46:41 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 46:42 For sure.

Andrew Huberman 46:43 Um,

Andrew Huberman 46:45 so moving on to science, but still with our minds in the Ukraine. Did you encounter any scientists or see any universities or, you know, as we know in this country and in Europe and in elsewhere, um, you know, science takes infrastructure. You need buildings, you need laboratories, you need robots, you need a lot of equipment, and you need, um, minus 80 freezers and you need incubators and you need money and you need technicians, and typically it's been the wealthier countries that have been able to do more research for sake of research and development of, of, and productization. Certainly, the Ukraine had some marvelous universities and, uh, marvelous scientists. Um, what's going on with science and science, oh, scientists over there and, um, and gosh, can we even calculate the loss of discovery that is occurring as a consequence of this conflict?

Lex Fridman 47:40 So science goes on. The, before the war, Ukraine had a very vibrant tech sector that which means engineering and all that kind of stuff. Um, Kiev has a lot of excellent universities and they still go on. The th- the biggest hit, I would say, is not the infrastructure or the science but the fact, because of the high morale, everybody is joining the military. So everybody's going to the front to fight, including, you know, you, Andrew Huberman, would be fighting, and not because you have to but because you want to. And everybody you know would be really proud that you're fighting. Even though everyone tries to convince, you know, "Andrew Huberman, you have much better ways to contribute. Uh, there's deep honor in fighting for your country, yes, but there're better ways to contribute to your country than just picking up a gun that you're not that trained with and going to the front." Still they do it. Uh, scientists, engineers, CEOs, professors, students-

Andrew Huberman 48:43 Men and women.

Lex Fridman 48:44 ... actors, men and women. Uh, obviously primarily men, but men and women. Like, uh, much more than you would see in, in other militaries. Women are... Everybody, everybody wants to fight. Everybody's proud of fighting. There's no discussion of, um, of kind of pacifism. Should we be fighting? Is this right? Is this... You know. It's everybody's really proud of fighting. So that, that's, uh...... so there's this kind of black hole that pulls everything, all the resource in- in- into the war effort, that's not just financial but also, uh, psychological. So i- it's like, um, if you're a scientist, it feels like, well... It feels like, um, um, almost like you're dishonoring humanity by continuing to do things you were doing before. There's a lot of people that converted to being soldiers. They literally watch a YouTube video, uh, of how to shoot a particular gun, how to arm a drone with a grenade. You know, if you're a tech person, you know how to work with drones so you're gonna use that, use whatever skills you got, figure out whatever skills you got and how to use them, uh, to help the effort on the front. And so, that's a big hit. But that said, that, you know, I've talked to a lot of folks in Kiev, uh, faculty, primarily in the tech economics space, so I didn't get a chance to interact with folks who are on the biology, chemistry, um, neuroscience side of things, but that- that- that still goes on. So one of the really impressive things about Ukraine is that they're able to maintain infrastructure, like road, food supply, all that kinda stuff, education, while the war is going on, especially in Kiev. The war started where nobody knew whether Kiev was gonna be taken by the Russian forces. It was surrounded. And, um, a lot of experts from outside were convinced that Russia would take Kiev, and- and they didn't. And one- one of the really impressive things as a leader, one of the things I really experienced is that a lot of people criticized Zelensky before the war. He only had about, like, 30% approval rate. A lot of people didn't like Zelensky. But one of the great things he did as a leader, which I'm not sure many leaders would be able to do, is when Kiev was clearly being invaded he chose to stay. He'd stay in the capital. Everybody. All the, um, the American military, the intelligence agencies, NATO, his own staff, advisors, all told him to flee and he stayed. And so that's... I think that was his beacon, a symbol for the rest, for the universities, for science, for- for the infrastructure that, "We're staying too." And, um, that kept the whole thing going. There's an interesting social experiment that happened, I think for folks who are interested in sort of gun control in this country in particular, is, uh, one of the decisions they made early on is to give guns to everybody. Uh, semi-automatics.

Andrew Huberman 51:54 Early on in the war, or early-

Lex Fridman 51:55 In- early on in the war, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 51:56 Okay. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 51:57 So everybody got a gun. Uh, they also released a bunch of prisoners from- from prison because th- there was no staff to- to- to con- to, uh, um, to keep the prisons running. And so there's a very interesting psychological experiment of, like, how is this gonna go? Everybody has a gun. Are they gonna start robbing places? Are they going to start taking advantage of a chaotic situation? And what happened is that crime went to zero. So it turned out that this, as an experiment, worked wonderfully.

Andrew Huberman 52:30 That's a case where love generalized.

Lex Fridman 52:33 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 52:33 Or at least hate did not. We don't know if it's love or it's sort of lack of initiative for self... You know, common culture directed hate.

Lex Fridman 52:40 Yeah. I don't... It- right. It's- I- I- I think it gets very correct to say that it wasn't hate that was unifying people. It was love of country, love of community. It's the- probably the same thing that will happen to humans when, like, aliens invade, is we're all... It's, uh, it's, uh, the common effort. Everybody puts everything else, uh, to the side. Plus just the- the sheer amount of guns, similar to, like, Texas. You realize, like, well, y- there's going to be a self-correcting mechanism very quickly, because the rule of law was also put aside, right? Like, um, basically the police force lost a lot of power because everybody else has guns and they're kinda taking the law into their own hands and that system, at least in this particular case, in this particular moment in human history, worked. It's an interesting lesson, you know?

Andrew Huberman 53:31 Mm-hmm. I'd- uh,

Andrew Huberman 53:33 it is. Uh, I had an interesting contrast that I'll share with you. I- 'cause you mentioned Texas. So not so long ago I was in Austin, I often visit you or others in Austin as you know, and, um, m- many doors that I walked past, including a school, said, "No firearms past this point." You know, it was a sticker on the door. Uh, you see this on hospitals sometimes, I saw this at Baylor College of Medicine, et cetera. Um, f- relatively common to see in Texas, um, not so common in California. Um, and then I flew to the San Francisco Bay area, was walking by an elementary school in my old neighborhood and saw a similar sticker and looked at it and it said, "No peanuts or other allergy containing foods past this point." On the door of this elementary school. So quite a different contrast, like, you know, guns and peanuts. Um, now, peanut allergies obviously are very serious for some people, although there's great research out of Stanford showing that early exposure to peanuts, um, can prevent the allergies. It's, uh... But don't start rubbing yourself in peanut butter, folks, if you have a peanut allergy. That's not the best way to deal with it. In any case, the contrast of what's dangerous, the contrast of, um, you know, the familiarity with guns versus no familiarity, you know. In Israel and elsewhere you're gonna see machine guns in the airport. In Germany, Frankfurt, you see machine guns in the airport. Not so common in the United States. So again, there's- I feel like there's this aperture of vision, there's this aperture of pleasures and cre- versus creature comforts and lack of, uh, creature comforts, and then there's this aperture of- of danger, right? Um, people who are familiar with guns, you know, are familiar with people coming in and setting their firearm on the table and eating- eating dinner, you know? But in- if you're not...... accustomed to that, it's jarring, right?

Lex Fridman 55:17 I sh- I should mention, the people know this throughout human history but the human ability to, um, get, um, assimilated? No, uh, get used to violence is incredible. So like, uh, you could be living in a peaceful time like, like we're here now and there would be one explosion, it's like a 9/11 type of situation. That'd be a huge shock. It'd be terrifying. Everybody freaks out. The second one is a huge drop off in how freaked out you get, and with- w- in a matter of days, sometimes hours it becomes the nor- the normal. I've talked to so many people in, uh, Kharkiv, which is one of the towns that's seen a lot of heated battle. You ask them, "Is it safe there?" I- in fact when I went to the, uh ... Closer and closer to the war zone you ask people, "Is it safe?" And their answer is usually, "Yeah, it's pretty safe."

Andrew Huberman 56:12 It's all signal to noise.

Lex Fridman 56:14 Y- yeah. It, like, nobody has told me, except like western reporters sitting in the west side of Ukraine, "It's really dangerous here." Everyone's like, "Yeah. We're, you know, it's good." Like, uh, my uncle just died yesterday. Like he was shot. Um, but it's pretty, you know, it's pretty good. Like the, the farm's still running. Like th- they, um ... How do I put it? It, it, they focus on the positive, that's one, but it's m- there's a deeper truth there which is you just get used to difficult situations and the stuff they make you happy and the stuff they make you upset is relative to that new normal that you establish.

Andrew Huberman 56:52 Mm-hmm. Well I grew up in California and there were a lot of earthquakes. I remember the '89 quake, I remember the Embarcadero freeway c- pancaking on top of people and cars. I remember, um, I moved to Southern California and there was a Northridge quake. Wherever I move there seem to be earthquakes. I never worry about earthquakes, ever. I just don't. And in fact, I don't like the destruction they cause but every once in a while an earthquake will roll through and it's kind of exciting. It sounds like a train coming through. It's like wow, like the earth is moving, you know? Again, I don't want anyone to get harmed but I en- I enjoy a good rumble coming through, nonetheless.

Lex Fridman 57:21 (laughs) .

Andrew Huberman 57:21 Um, uh, it's signal to noise.

Lex Fridman 57:23 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 57:23 But if I saw a tornado? I'd freak out. I mean, people from the Midwest are probably comfortable with, you know, Dan Gable, the great wrestler from the Midwest that you know and I've never met but I have great respect for. He's probably, you know, sees, sees a tornado and is like, "Ah, yeah. Maybe, yeah." You know? So, so I think signal to noise is, is real. Um

Andrew Huberman 57:40 ... Before I neglect, although I won't forget. Um, speaking of signal to noise and environment, you are returning to or have gone back to one of your original, um, natural habitats which is the Massachusetts Institu-

Lex Fridman 57:56 (laughs) .

Andrew Huberman 57:56 ... tude of Technology. Which is-

Lex Fridman 57:58 (laughs) . Natural habitat, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 57:59 It's, it's actually difficult to pronounce in full. MIT, right? So you've been, um, spending some time there teaching, um, and doing other things. Tell us what you're up to with MIT recently?

Lex Fridman 58:08 Well it's, I'm, I'm really glad that you, being on the, on the west coast know the difference between like Boston and New York. I feel like a lot of people think-

Andrew Huberman 58:15 (laughs) . We l- (laughs) l-

Lex Fridman 58:15 It's like the east coast.

Andrew Huberman 58:17 No. (laughs) It's very different.

Lex Fridman 58:18 It's all, it's all co-

Andrew Huberman 58:18 Especially to Bo- (laughs) Bostonians and New Yorkers.

Lex Fridman 58:20 They get very aggressive at each other.

Andrew Huberman 58:22 Oh my goodness.

Lex Fridman 58:22 Yeah. I, I l- I love it. I get, I gave, um, uh, lectures there in front of an in person crowd for-

Andrew Huberman 58:29 What were you talking about?

Lex Fridman 58:30 ... for the AI.

Andrew Huberman 58:31 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 58:31 So different aspects of AI.

Andrew Huberman 58:32 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 58:33 And, uh, r- you know, robotics, machine learning, machine learning. So for people who know the artificial intelligence field, they usually don't use the term AI and people from outside use AIs. The, the biggest breakthroughs in the machine learning field with some discussion of robotics, uh, and so on. Yeah, it was in person. It was, it was wonderful. I, I'm a sucker for that. I really avoided teaching or any kind of interaction during COVID because, uh, people put a lot of emphasis on but also got comfortable with remote teaching and I think nobody enjoyed it. Uh, except sort of there's a notion that it's much easier to do.

Andrew Huberman 59:14 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 59:14 Because you don't have to, you know, you don't have to travel, you don't have to ... You can do it i- in your pajamas kind of thing. But when you actually get to do it, you don't get s- the same kind of joy that you do when you're teaching. As a student you don't get the same kind of joy of learning, it's not as effective and all that kind of stuff. So to be in person together with people, to see their eyes, to get their excitement, to get the questions and all the interactions, yeah, it was awesome. And it's, I'm still, um, uh, a sucker and a believer in the, the ideal of MIT, of the university. I think it's an incredible place. There's something in the air, uh, still. But it really hit, uh, the pandemic hit universities h- hard because, and I can say this, this is not you saying it, this is me saying it, uh, that administrations, as in all cases when people criticize institutions, the pandemic has given more power to the administration and taken away power from the faculty and the students. And that's a, for everybody involved, including the administration, that's a concern because the university is about the teachers and the students. That should be primary. And whenever you have a pandemic there's an opportunity to increase the amount of rules. Like one of the things that really bothered me, and I'll scream from the top of the, um, uh, MIT dome, uh, about this is they've instituted a new, uh, Tim Ticket system which is if you're a visitor to the campus at MIT you have to register. You have to first of all show that you're vaccinated but more importantly there's a process to visiting. You, you need to get permission to visit. One of the reasons I loved MIT, unlike some other institutions, MIT just leaves the door open to anyone.

Andrew Huberman 1:00:58 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:00:59 In classrooms you can roll in. The ridiculous characters, the students that are kinda like usually doing business stuff or economics can roll into a physics c- class and just ... You know, you're kind of not allowed but it's a gray area so you, th- you, you let that happen and that creates a flourishing of the community that was beautiful. And I think adding extra rules-... um, puts a squeeze on and limits some of the- the flourishing. Um, and I hope some of that dissipates over time as we kind of let go of, um, the- the risk aversion that was created by the pandemic. As we kind of enter the new, uh, th- the normal, return back, some of that flourishing can happen. But when you're actually in there with the students, yeah, it was just magic. I love it. I love it.

Andrew Huberman 1:01:46 Well, some of your earliest videos on your YouTube channel were- were of you in the classroom, right?

Lex Fridman 1:01:50 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:01:50 That's how this all started.

Lex Fridman 1:01:51 Yeah. Yeah, that's how YouTube... Like, putting stuff on, uh, on YouTube was- was terrifying, right? Like-

Andrew Huberman 1:01:58 Well, especially at the time when you did it. Again, you're a- a pioneer in that sense. Um, you did that, Jordan Peterson did that. Putting up lectures, um, is, uh, yeah, I would, uh, h- I teach still. Ev- every winter I teach. I don't direct a course and I'll- I'll be doing even more teaching going forward. But, um, the idea of those videos being on the web is- is, uh, yeah, that spikes my cortisol a little bit.

Lex Fridman 1:02:23 Yeah, it's terrifying 'cause you get to... And everybody has a different experience. Like, for me, being a junior, uh, r- research scientist, the- the kind of natural concern is like, who am I? And it... When I was, uh, giving this lecture, it was like, "I don't deserve any of this." Like, why-

Andrew Huberman 1:02:39 Yeah, but that's your humility coming through and I actually-

Lex Fridman 1:02:41 Nah, uh-

Andrew Huberman 1:02:41 ... think that humility on- on the part of an instructor is good because th- those that think, you know, uh, that they are entitled and who else, who else could give (laughs) this lecture?

Lex Fridman 1:02:51 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:02:51 Then I worry more. I think it's, um... I once heard, I don't know if it's still true, that the, um... At Caltech, right? The great California Institute of Technology not far from here. Um, that many of the faculty are actually afraid of the students. Uh, not physically afraid, but they're intellectually afraid because the students are so smart.

Lex Fridman 1:03:09 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:09 And teaching there can be downright frightening, I've heard.

Lex Fridman 1:03:13 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:13 But that's great. Keeps everybody on their toes.

Lex Fridman 1:03:15 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:15 And, um, I think, uh... And you know, I- I've been corrected in lecture before at Stanford and elsewhere. You know, when my lab was at UC San Diego where someone will say, "Hey, wait, um, you know, last lecture you said this and now you said that." And, or on the podcast, you know? And- and I think it's that moment where, you know, you sometimes feel that mo- that urge to defend and you go, "Oh, you're- you're right." And I think it depends on how one was trained. My graduate advisor was wonderful at saying, "I don't know" all the time, and she went to, uh, Harvard, Radcliffe, um, UCSF, and Caltech and... Brilliant woman. Um, and had no problem saying, like, "I don't know."

Lex Fridman 1:03:49 I don't have that problem. So I usually have two guys that if somebody speaks up, grab them, drag them out of the room.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:54 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:03:55 Never see 'em again.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:56 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:03:57 So everybody is really supportive. I don't under- you don't understand. The- the- the amount of love and support I get is great.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:01 Especially when the last few students are there and everybody seems to be nodding as you're going.

Lex Fridman 1:04:06 Yeah. (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:04:06 No, I think that, um... I'd love to sit in on one of your lectures. I know very little about AI, machine learning, or robotics. Um, but gosh.

Lex Fridman 1:04:12 Have you ever talked at MIT? Have you ever, uh, li- like, uh, given lectures or anything?

Andrew Huberman 1:04:16 Oh, yeah. In, um... When I went on the job market for, as a faculty member, my final two choices were between MIT Picower, I had a, an on paper offer, wonderful place, wonderful place to do neuroscience, and UC San Diego which has a, um, a wonderful neuroscience program. In the end it made sense for me to be on the West Coast for personal reasons, but, um, there's some amazing neuroscience going on there. Goodness. And, uh, that's always been true and is going to continue. It's been a long time since I've been invited back there. Oddly enough, when I started doing more podcasting and, uh... I still run a lab but I- I shrunk my lab considerably when I was doing, as I've done more podcasting. I've received fewer academic lecture invites, which makes sense. But now they're sort of coming back, and so when people invite now I always say, you know, "Do you want me to, uh, talk about, uh, the ventral thalamus and its role in, uh, anxiety and aggression or do you, uh, want me to talk about the podcast?" And my big fear is I'm gonna go back to give a lecture about the retina or something and I'll start off with an athletic greens read or something (laughs) like that.

Lex Fridman 1:05:14 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:05:14 Just reflexively... Uh, just kidding. That wouldn't happen. But, um, listen.

Lex Fridman 1:05:18 Yeah, but, but, but-

Andrew Huberman 1:05:19 I think it's great to continue to s- po- keep a foot in both places. I was so happy to hear that you're teaching at MIT because podcasting is one thing, teaching is another, and there's overlap there in the Venn diagram. But, um, listen, the students that get to sit in on one of your lectures, and you may see me sitting there in the audience soon when I- I creep into your class-

Lex Fridman 1:05:36 In- in sunglasses.

Andrew Huberman 1:05:37 That's right. Wearing a- a red shirt. Um, you won't recognize me.

Lex Fridman 1:05:42 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:05:42 Um, will... Are certainly, um, receiving a great gift. I've- I've watched your lectures on YouTube, even the early ones, and, um, listen, uh, I- I know you to be a phenomenal

Andrew Huberman 1:05:51 teacher.

Lex Fridman 1:05:52 Yeah, there's something about... So I'm also doing, um, like, uh, the, I stayed up pretty late last night, uh, working for a deadline on- on- on a paper. One of the things that I hope to do for f- hopefully the rest of my life is- is to continue publishing and I think it's really important to do that even if, um, you continue the podcast, because you want to be fr- just on your own intellectual and scientific journey as you do podcasting. Because, um, at least for me, and especially on the engineering side, 'cause I wanna build stuff, and I think that keeps your ego in check, keeps you humble, because I think if you talk too much on the microphone you start getting, um... You might lose track of, um, you know, the grounding that comes from engineering and from science and the scientific process and the criticisms that you get. All that kind of stuff.

Andrew Huberman 1:06:47 And how slow and iterative it is. We have two papers right now that are in the revision stage and it's been a very long road. And I was asked this recently because I met with my chairman and he said, "Do you want to continue to run a lab or are you just gonna go full time on the podcast?" And Stanford has been very supportive I must say, as I know MIT has been of y- of you. Um, and I said, "Oh, I absolutely want to continue to be involved in research and do research." Uh, and we started talking about these papers and we were looking over my... This was my yearly review and looking back I'm like, "Goodness, these papers have been in play for a very long time." So it's a long road but, you know, you learn more and more and the more time you spend, you know, myopically looking at a- at a bunch of data the- the more you learn and the more you think. I- I totally agree. You know, talking into these devices for podcasts is wonderful 'cause, um, it's fun, it relieves a certain itch that we both have, and, um, hopefully it- it lands some important information out there for people. But doing research is- is like the, uh, the... I, you know, I...... I guess if you know, you know. There's like the, the, you know, the unpeeling of the onion-

Lex Fridman 1:07:45 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:07:45 ... knowing that there could be something there. There's c- just nothing like it.

Lex Fridman 1:07:49 I mean, you do, e- especially with the pandemic, you, and, b- for me, both Twitter and the podcast have made me much more impatient about the slowness of the review process because, uh-

Andrew Huberman 1:08:02 Twitter will do that.

Lex Fridman 1:08:03 ... Tw- Twitter will d- but even with podcasts, you, you have a cool, you'll find something cool and then you, you have ideas and all, and you'll just say them and they'll be out pretty quickly from the podcast.

Andrew Huberman 1:08:12 Yeah, we do a post right now about something that we both found interesting-

Lex Fridman 1:08:14 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:08:14 ... and it's out in the world, yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:08:16 And you can write up something, like, uh, there is a culture in computer science of posting stuff on arXiv and, uh, pre-prints that don't get in your review, and sometimes they don't even go through the review process ever because like people just start using them if it's code.

Andrew Huberman 1:08:29 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:08:29 And it's like, "What's, what, what's the point of this?" It works, like the, it's self-evident that it works because people are using it and that, that I think applies more to eng- engineering fields 'cause it's an actual tool that works. It doesn't matter if it, you don't have to scientifically prove that it works. It works-

Andrew Huberman 1:08:46 Right.

Lex Fridman 1:08:46 ... 'cause it's used for a lot of people.

Andrew Huberman 1:08:47 Well, and sorry to interrupt, but I just, uh, for point of reference, the famous paper describing the double helix which earned Watson and Crick the Nobel Prize and, um, should have earned Rosalind Franklin a Nobel Prize too, of course, but they got it, um, for the structure of DNA, of course. That paper was never reviewed at Nature. They published it because its importance was self-evident or whatever, uh, they said.

Lex Fridman 1:09:10 Oh, interesting. So like the editors, uh-

Andrew Huberman 1:09:11 Yeah. The, it was that purely editorial decision. I believe. I mean, that's what I was told by someone who's currently an editor at Nature, um, if that turns out to not be correct, someone will tell us in the comments, for sure.

Lex Fridman 1:09:21 Well, I think, uh-

Andrew Huberman 1:09:22 But that's pretty interesting, right?

Lex Fridman 1:09:23 It's really interesting.

Andrew Huberman 1:09:23 It's perhaps the most significant discovery in biology and bioengineering, which leading to bioengineering is- as well, of course, of the last century, was not peer-reviewed.

Lex Fridman 1:09:34 Yeah, but so Eric Weinstein, but many others have, uh, have talked about this, which is, I mean, I don't think people understand how poor the peer review process is. J- just the amount of... 'cause you think peer review means all the best peers get together and they review your stuff, but it's unpaid work and it's usually a small number of people and it's a very, they have a very select perspective, so they might not be the best person, especially if it's super novel work.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:05 And it's who has time to do it.

Lex Fridman 1:10:06 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:06 I'm on a bunch of editorial boards still. Why? I don't know. But I enjoy the peer review process and sending papers out. Oftentimes the best scientists are very busy and don't have time to review.

Lex Fridman 1:10:15 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:16 And oftentimes, uh, the pr- more premier journals will select from a kind of a unique kit of very good scientists who are very close to the work. Sometimes the people are very far from the work.

Lex Fridman 1:10:27 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:28 It really depends.

Lex Fridman 1:10:28 And, and both have negatives, right? If you're very close to the work, there's jealousy and all those basic human things. Very far from the work, you might not appreciate the, the nuanced contribution, all that kind of stuff.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:38 And there's psychology. Sorry to interrupt again, but a good friend of mine who's an extremely successful neuroscientist, Howard Hughes Investigator, et cetera, always told me that, um, they, I won't even say whether or not, uh, who they are, they select their reviewers on the basis of who has been, um, publishing very well recently 'cause they assume-

Lex Fridman 1:10:55 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:55 ... that that person is gonna be more benevolent because they're, they've been doing well so that the, uh, the love expands.

Lex Fridman 1:11:00 There's a good point to that actually, uh, but, you know, the, the idea is that editors might actually be the best r- reviewers. So that, that was the traditional, that's, that's the thing I wanted to mention that Eric Weinstein talks about, that back, um, several decades ago, editors had much more power. And there's something to be made for that 'cause they... Editors are the ones who are responsible for crafting the journal, like they really are invested in this. And so, m- and they're also often experts, right? So it makes sense for an editor to have a bit of power in this case. Like usually if an idea is truly novel, you could see it. And, um, so it's, it makes sense for an editor to have more power in that regard. Of course, for me, I, I think peer review should be done the way tweets are done, which is like, um, crowdsourced or Amazon reviews.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:49 Let, let, let the crowd decide.

Lex Fridman 1:11:50 Let the crowd decide and let, let the crowd add depth and breadth in f- in context for their contribution. So, um, you know, if the paper overstates the degree of contribution, the crowd will check you on that. Um, if there's not enough support or like the conclusions are not supported by the evidence, the crowd will check you on that. Uh, there should be... There could be, of course, uh, political bickering that enters the picture, especially on very controversial topics, but I think I trust the intelligence of human beings to figure that out and I think most of us are, are trying to figure this whole process out. I just wish it was happening much faster because on the important topics, the review cycle could be, could be faster. And we learned that through COVID that (laughs) Twitter was actually pretty effective at doing science communication. It was really interesting.

Andrew Huberman 1:12:44 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:12:45 Some, some of the best scientists took to Twitter to communicate their own work and other people's work and always putting into sort of the caveats that it's not, um, p- peer-reviewed and so on, but it's, it's all out there and the data just moves so fast and if you want stuff to move fast, Twitter is the best medium of communication for that. It's

Lex Fridman 1:13:05 cool to see.

Andrew Huberman 1:13:06 I'd like to take a brief break and thank our sponsor, InsideTracker. InsideTracker is a personalized nutrition platform that analyzes data from your blood and DNA to help you better understand your body and help you reach your health goals. I've long been a believer in getting regular blood work done for the simple reason that many of the factors that impact your immediate and long-term health can only be analyzed from a quality blood test. The problem with a lot of blood and DNA tests out there, however, is that you get data back about metabolic factors, lipids and hormones and so forth, but you don't know what to do with those data. InsideTracker solves that problem and makes it very easy for you to understand what sorts of nutritional...... behavioral, maybe even supplementation-based interventions you might want to take on in order to adjust the numbers of those metabolic factors, hormones, lipids, and other things that impact your immediate and long-term health, to bring those numbers into the ranges that are appropriate and indeed optimal for you. If you'd like to try InsideTracker, you can visit insidetracker.com/huberman to get $200 off an Ultimate Plan or 34% off the entire site as a special Black Friday deal now through the end of November. Again, that's insidetracker.com/huberman and use the code huberman

Andrew Huberman 1:14:17 at checkout. I'm now on Twitter more regularly. Uh, and initially it was just Instagram and I remember we used- you and I used to have these, um, over, over dinner drink conversations where I'd say, "I don't understand Twitter." And you'd say, "I don't understand Instagram."

Lex Fridman 1:14:31 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:14:31 And of course, we understand how it worked-

Lex Fridman 1:14:33 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:14:33 ... and how to work e- each respective platform, but I think we were both trying to figure out, you know, what, what is driving the psychology of these different venues, 'cause they are quite distinct psychologies, um, for whatever reason. I think I'm finally starting to understand Twitter and enjoy it a little bit. Uh, initially I wasn't, uh, prepared for the level of kind of, um, reflexive scrutiny.

Lex Fridman 1:14:56 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:14:56 That sounds a little b- bit oxymoronic, but that people kind of like pick up on one small thing and then, you know, drive it down that, that trajectory.

Lex Fridman 1:15:01 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:15:01 Didn't seem to be happening quite as much on Instagram, but, uh, I love your tweets. I, I do have a question about your, your, your Twitter, um, a- a- account and how you... Do you have sort of internal filters of what you'll put up and won't put up? Um, because sometimes you'll put up things that are about life and reflections, other times you'll put up, um, things like what you're excited about in AI or, of course, uh, you know, um, point to various podcasts, including your own but, but others as well. You know, what do you... how do you approach social media? Not, not in how do you regulate your behavior on there in terms of how much time, et cetera, I know you've talked about that before, but, uh, you know, what's your mindset around social media when you go on there to either, um, post or forage or respond to information?

Lex Fridman 1:15:48 I think I try to add some, not to sound cliché, but some love out there into the world, into, as OJ Simpson calls it, Twitter world.

Andrew Huberman 1:16:00 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:16:00 Uh, I think there is this viral negativity that can take hold, and I try to find the right language to add, you know, good vibes out there. And it's actually really, really tricky because e- (laughs) there's something about positivity that sounds fake. And I'm not, I can't quite put my finger on it, but whenever I talk about love and, and, um, positive and almost childlike in my curiosity and positivity, people are, start to think, like, "Surely he has, like, skeletons in the closet. Like, there's dead bodies in his basement. Like, this must be a fake-"

Andrew Huberman 1:16:40 It's the attic.

Lex Fridman 1:16:41 It's the attic?

Andrew Huberman 1:16:42 The attic.

Lex Fridman 1:16:42 I keep mine in the basement.

Andrew Huberman 1:16:43 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:16:44 That's the details. Uh-

Andrew Huberman 1:16:45 I was referring to your attic. I don't have an attic or a basement.

Lex Fridman 1:16:47 Oh. Okay.

Andrew Huberman 1:16:48 Nor dead bodies, I just wanna be very clear.

Lex Fridman 1:16:50 Yeah. I do have a- an attic and, um, actually I haven't been up to... Maybe there is bodies up there. But yes, I- I- I prefer the basement. It's colder down there. I like it. Uh, no, but there's an assumption that this is not genuine or not, um... it's- it's disingenuous in some kind of way. And so, um, I, I try to find the right language for that kind of stuff, how to, h- how to be positive. Some of it I was really inspired by, uh, Elon's approach to Twitter. Not all of it, (laughs) but the, uh, when he just is silly. I found that, uh, silliness, I think it's, uh, Hermann Hesse said, um, a- (laughs) something to, to paraphrase, uh, one of my favorite writers.

Andrew Huberman 1:17:35 Yeah, same.

Lex Fridman 1:17:35 S- s- uh, I think in Steppenwolf, uh, s- said, uh, "Learn, uh, what is to be taken seriously and, uh, laugh at the rest." I think I try to be silly, laugh at myself, laugh at the absurdity of life, and then in part when I'm serious try to just be positive, uh, just see a positive perspective. But... and also, um, as you said, people pick out certain words and so on and they attack each other, attack me over certain usage of words in a particular tweet. I think the thing I try to do is think positively towards them. Like, do not escalate. So whenever somebody's criticizing me and so on, I, I just smile. If there's a lesson to be learned, I, I learn it, and then I just b- send good vibes their way, don't respond, and just hopefully sort of, um, through karma and through kind of the ripple effect of, uh, positivity have, like, a po- you know, an impact on, on them and the rest of Twitter. And, uh, what you find is, like, that builds... Your actions create the community. So how I behave gets me surrounded by certain people. But, you know, lately especially, Ukraine is one topic like this. I also thought about talking to... Somebody who reached out to me is Andrew Tate, who's extremely controversial, al- uh, from the perspective of a lot of people is a misogynist, and-

Andrew Huberman 1:19:06 I- I've heard his name and I know that there's a lot of controversy around him. Maybe you could familiarize me.

Lex Fridman 1:19:10 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:19:11 Um, I've been pretty nosed down in podcast prep and I tried to do this vacation thing for about three, four weeks.

Lex Fridman 1:19:17 I've heard about that.

Andrew Huberman 1:19:17 Yeah, and, um, it sort of worked, (laughs) uh, I did get some time in the Colorado wilderness by myself, which was great, um, I did get, um, eh, some downtime, but, eh, in any event, it, I main- mainly consists of reading and, um, wasn't-

Lex Fridman 1:19:34 In nature.

Andrew Huberman 1:19:34 Eh, re- uh, reading and nature, sauna, ice bath, working out, um, good food, a little extra sleep, these kinds of things. I really felt I needed it. But I am...... pretty naïve when it comes to the, kind of, current controversies, but I've heard his name and, um, I think he's been deplatformed on a couple of platforms. Do I have that right?

Lex Fridman 1:19:54 He has been... So I should also admit that while I might know more than you, n- it's not by much. So it's like, it's like a five-year-old talking to a four-year-old right now.

Andrew Huberman 1:20:04 Is he an athlete? A podcaster?

Lex Fridman 1:20:06 So, uh, basic summary, he used to be a fighter, a kickboxer, I believe, uh, was pretty successful, and then aside, during that and after that, I think he was in a reality show and he had all these programs that are basically, like, pickup artist advice. He has this, like, community of people where he gives advice on how to pick up women, how to, how to be successful in relationships, how to make a lot of money, and there's, like, um... It costs money to enter the-