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Dr. Harold McGee on Huberman Lab: How Flavor Chemistry Works

Heat and salt alter food chemistry to unlock umami and suppress bitterness; McGee covers Maillard reactions, polyphenols in cacao, and supertaster biology.

Andrew HubermanhostHarold McGeeguest
Jun 30, 20252h 13mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:21

    Harold McGee

    1. AH

      (Upbeat music) Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Harold McGee. Dr. Harold McGee is a professor at Stanford University and world-renowned author on the topic of science and the chemistry of food and cooking. He has spent more than four decades researching and writing about this topic. His work is unique because it at once teaches us about why foods taste the way they do, as well as how to make essentially any food or drink taste better. I, like presumably most of you, absolutely love to eat. And for me that's an understatement. I love food and eating. Today Harold teaches us about everything from how certain types of cookware, the bowls, the pans you use, even the utensils you use can change the taste of those foods, as well as simple things like adding a pinch of salt to anything bitter-tasting, including coffee, yes coffee, changes its chemistry and flavor for the better, and he explains why. We discuss the preparation of meat, and this thing that we call savoriness or the umami taste, and how it's brought about by heating proteins in very specific ways and how you can bring out more of those flavors, and how to get more of the healthy compounds such as polyphenols found in chocolate and cacao. And we cover the much debated issue of whether more expensive wines are truly better than less expensive ones in terms of their taste, or whether it's all a function of marketing. So if you're a seasoned cook or perhaps you only know how to make a few basic dishes, or if your version of cooking is basically a protein shake and some oatmeal, this discussion with Harold McGee will let you understand the essential chemistry of food and cooking and how to prepare food that is far more enjoyable. As I said before, I love to eat, and this discussion taught me how to make the foods I love so much, meat, cheese, vegetables, fruit, starches, et cetera, all taste far better. And since eating is a big part of life, not just a way to support our health, I'm certain that everyone will glean useful knowledge and practical tools from Dr. McGee. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Harold McGee.

  2. 2:21 – 9:59

    Food Chemistry, Using Copper, Modern vs Traditional Techniques

    1. AH

      Dr. Harold McGee, welcome.

    2. HM

      Thank you, Dr. Huberman. (laughs)

    3. AH

      (laughs) I, like most people, love to eat. I also love food. I love the look of it, I love the smell of it. I love the anticipation of eating. And you've had a truly unique career. We'll talk a little bit more about your background later, but you've had such a unique career focusing on the chemistry of food, food interactions, and I must say, even just knowing a little bit about your work, you've changed the way that I think about even, like the sorts of metals that I might use to prepare my food, because it turns out these things are all impacting one another in not just small ways, but really profound ways that impact our experience of food and, and taste. So just to kick things off, is there any one wild food interaction chemistry fact that you just particularly find interesting?

    4. HM

      When I started writing my book about, uh, the chemistry of cooking, um, I didn't know that much about cooking or about chemistry. I was kind of learning on the fly, which was part of the fun. And, uh, I read when I was writing about eggs that if you're gonna make a, a foam of egg whites to make a meringue or a souffle, so you put the egg whites in a bowl and you whisk them until they, uh, uh, essentially form a solid from that liquid, um, a solid consisting of, uh, a- air bubbles trapped in, uh, in the liquid, and that makes it act like a solid. Amazing kind of transformation. Um, and, uh, when I was looking at, uh, what cooks had said about this process, they said you should use a copper bowl to do that whipping. And so I looked in the chemistry of eggs literature, of which there was, uh, a fair amount actually, for some kind of explanation as to why that might be the case, and, uh, couldn't find one. And so I decided, well, it's probably an old cook's tale, somebody who had a, a copper bowl and used that and thought that was better and ... So I didn't think anything more about it until I was preparing my book for publication, looking for cheap illustrations, because I couldn't afford good ones, and I found an old engraving of a, an 18th century French kitchen. And there was a boy acting as though he was whipping something in a bowl, and the bowl kind of looked like our modern, um, copper bowls with a little ring to hang the bowl on the, uh, on the wall. And there was a key that came along with the illustrations, and the key actually said, uh, "Whipping eggs in a copper bowl to make pastries." So I thought if the French have been doing it for hundreds of years, maybe there's something to this. Maybe I should, uh, actually test it, which was a really important lesson for me. Test everything.

    5. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    6. HM

      Uh, I, I gulped and bought a copper bowl because they're expensive and, um, and did a side by side, and the difference was tremendous. Different color, different texture, different consistency in the mouth, totally different, um, experience. And so it was that, um, that, uh, uh, realization that a, um, a cook's, what, what I thought might be a, an old cook's tale could actually have a, a kernel of scientific chemical truth to it, that to me was a, a mind-blowing and, and career-changing experience because from then on I didn't take anything for granted.

    7. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    8. HM

      I always had to give it a try.

    9. AH

      I love it. I recently started drinking water out of a copper, um, reusable bottle-

    10. HM

      Uh-huh.

    11. AH

      ... mostly because I needed a water bottle and there was one for sale where I happened to be and it was copper, and I rather like the taste. There are all sorts of theories about copper being better for us health-wise, et cetera. I haven't explored those to see if they're actually true or if it's, um, nonsense. But, um, I, I do like the look of it. Uh, is copper used, um, for the preparation of any other foods, specifically in order to extract the best flavor from those foods, or, or liquids?

    12. HM

      Uh, uh, copper is actually used in jam-making, jelly and jam-making, and the reason for that is, uh, that if you use any other, uh, material you end up, um, m- messing with m- actually almost everything in there because the temperatures are pretty high, they're above the boiling point, um, but in particular the sugars. And if you break sucrose down to glucose and fructose, then, you know, the, the behavior of the material changes a lot, not necessarily for the better. And it turns out that copper actually inhibits the breakdown of gluco- of sucrose into glucose and fructose. And so, again, for, uh, generations, uh, cooks, French cooks in particular, uh, have used copper bowls to make, uh, their preserves.

    13. AH

      Wow. Copper is used for a variety of things, um, it sounds like, and people have arrived to this through what sounds like kind of an unconscious genius combined with, um, uh, experimentation.

    14. HM

      When scientists got interested in cooking, they sometimes made, um, claims and, uh, and suggested changes that, in fact, were terrible ideas.

    15. AH

      Hmm.

    16. HM

      The traditional way of doing things was actually much better. They had come up with a partial understanding of what was going on, and on the basis of that partial understanding, decided that they needed to correct cooks who, of course, weren't as smart as they were, uh, uh, and get them to change. And so you can see in the middle of the 19th century, some cookbooks published in, in England and the US having a subtitle. You know, the back in the day, long subtitles were, uh, were enjoyed. And so this, the subtitle would be, "In which the theories of Dr. Liebig have been as much as possible applied in, in the recipes." And Liebig was, he was a genius, um, biochemist, but on cooking, he kind of took his genius for granted and was wrong.

    17. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    18. HM

      The, the cooks knew better.

    19. AH

      Yeah, I love, um, this notion of unconscious genius, that a field of people who are experimenting without any formal rigorous coursework in a given area like chemistry can-

    20. HM

      Yeah.

    21. AH

      ... can arrive at, at truths without understanding the m- the mechanistic basis of those truths.

    22. HM

      Yeah, yeah.

    23. AH

      You know, actually I think a lot of what we face nowadays in the, the sphere of health and nutrition is about that conflict. You know, there, there are papers identifying mechanisms, but then they don't play out in clinical trials, which is the... you know, and then there are people in the real world who are doing things for which there's really no peer-reviewed research, but you get the sense that maybe they're onto something, you know?

    24. HM

      Mm-hmm.

    25. AH

      So it's a very interesting intersection of, um, uh, expertise and, uh, and real-world results.

    26. HM

      Yes.

    27. AH

      Yeah, or sometimes collision of-

    28. HM

      (laughs)

    29. AH

      ... of the two. I'd

  3. 9:59 – 13:33

    Sponsors: Eight Sleep & Our Place

    1. AH

      like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Eight Sleep. Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity. One of the best ways to ensure a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct, and that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees. And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees. Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs. Eight Sleep has just launched their latest model, the Pod 5, and the Pod 5 has several new important features. One of these new features is called Auto Pilot. Auto Pilot is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns to adjust the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages. It also elevates your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep. The base on the Pod 5 also has an integrated speaker that syncs to the Eight Sleep app and can play audio to support relaxation and recovery. The audio catalog includes several NSDR, non-sleep deep rest, scripts that I worked on with Eight Sleep to record. If you're not familiar, NSDR involves listening to an audio script that walks you through a deep body relaxation combined with some very simple breathing exercises. NSDR can help offset some of the negative effects of slight sleep deprivation, and NSDR gets you better at falling back asleep should you wake up in the middle of the night. It's an extremely powerful tool that anyone can benefit from the first time and every time. If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, go to EightSleep.com/huberman to get up to $350 off the new Pod 5. Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE. Again, that's EightSleep.com/huberman to save up to $350. Today's episode is also brought to us by Our Place. Our Place makes my favorite pots, pans, and other cookware. Surprisingly, toxic compounds such as PFASs, or forever chemicals, are still found in 80% of non-stick pans, as well as utensils, appliances, and countless other kitchen products. As I've discussed before in this podcast, these PFASs, or forever chemicals, like Teflon, have been linked to major health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems. So it's really important to try and avoid them.This is why I'm a huge fan of Our Place. Our Place products are made with the highest quality materials and are all completely PFAS and toxin free. I especially love their Titanium Always Pan Pro. It's the first non-stick pan made with zero chemicals and zero coating. Instead, it uses pure titanium. This means it has no harmful forever chemicals and does not degrade or lose its non-stick effect over time. It's also beautiful to look at. I cook eggs in my Titanium Always Pan Pro almost every morning. The design allows for the eggs to cook perfectly without sticking to the pan. I also cook burgers and steaks in it, and it puts a really nice sear on the meat. But again, nothing sticks to it, so it's really easy to clean and it's even dishwasher-safe. I love it, and I basically use it constantly. Our Place now has a full line of Titanium Pro cookware that uses its first of its kind titanium non-stick technology. So if you're looking for non-toxic, long-lasting pots and pans, go to fromourplace.com/huberman and use the code Huberman at checkout. Right now, Our Place is having their biggest sale of the season. You can get up to 30% off all products now through May 12th, 2025. With 100-day risk-free trial, free shipping, and free returns, you can try Our Place with zero risk and see why more than one million people have made the switch to Our Place kitchenware. Again, that's fromourplace.com/huberman to get up to 30% off.

  4. 13:33 – 22:10

    Cooking, Food & Heat, Taste & Smell

    1. AH

      As I mentioned before, I love to eat, um, and we could talk about any of the different major food groups, um, a- as an exploration of the chemistry of food. But I think one of the more interesting ones is the combination of heat and food, right?

    2. HM

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    3. AH

      Um, and very often people will ask me, you know, like, "Is microwaving safe?" and things like that, and I've... Uh, didn't ask me anything recently where I said, "Yes, indeed, microwaves are safe." You probably don't want to stand right in front of it in case the- the mesh protector isn't- isn't as effective as it might be, but, yeah, it's heating things up from the inside. But we have all these different ways to heat up food, and we have ways to heat food and then cool food as a way to enhance the flavor of food. When it comes to, um, the use of heat in food, what- what do we know about the history of the- the use of... I- I imagine it was fire first. But, um, this is a vast, you know, topic, but, um, what are some of the interesting ways in which heat interacts with food at the chemical level to allow us to enjoy that food more?

    4. HM

      Yeah, so, um, in the anthropological literature, of course, the focus is on, um, uh, increasing caloric intake and being able to, uh, consume materials that we wouldn't otherwise be able to consume as efficiently. So, um, that's- that's the sort of practical side. But my feeling is that the use of fire wouldn't have caught on if it didn't make foods delicious, more delicious than they'd been (laughs) in the first place, uh, at the same time. And- and in fact, probably, um, people early on, uh, learned to associate particular sensory experiences with the nutritional value of what it was they were eating and maybe even the safety because-

    5. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    6. HM

      ... uh, you know, if you kill a mammoth, you've got a lot of leftovers, and, uh, w- what do you do with them so that they don't spoil and- and make you sick later on? So, um, the- the terrific thing about the application of heat to foods in general is that they... Heat kind of takes the materials, uh, of which the food is made and rearranges them, um, and in many cases, breaks molecules down into smaller molecules that, um, that we can actually detect with our senses of taste and smell.

    7. AH

      Hm.

    8. HM

      So, uh, proteins, carbohydrates, fats, that's what we think of as constituting food, but they're all, um, macromolecules. Uh, they're- they're way too big for us to experience directly, and, uh... So one of the things about cooking that's- that's most important is that cooking will take those macromolecules and break down, uh, enough of them to produce small molecules that we can detect with our senses of taste and smell and, um, and enjoy simply for that reason. Uh, you know, we have... My- my feeling is that we have our senses, um, for them to be stimulated.

    9. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    10. HM

      And, um, so in many cases, even if the, um, if the stimulation is borderline pleasurable or maybe even slightly unpleasurable, we still enjoy the fact that we're being stimulated-

    11. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    12. HM

      ... that something is going on with our senses of taste and smell. And cooking, um, does that in spades.

    13. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    14. HM

      It takes these- these, uh, molecules with no taste or smell and turns them into bouquets of various kinds depending on the original material.

    15. AH

      Yeah, when I think about a piece of steak, um, and if I were to take a bite of it raw, um, it would taste very different, uh, cold versus room temperature, and then raw steak, which to me is not appetizing, um, cooked even just a bit, especially if it were seared on the outside, um, now becomes pretty darn good. Cook it a little bit more like medium rare with a really nice sear on the outside, I think they call it Pittsburgh char-

    16. HM

      Uh-huh. (laughs)

    17. AH

      ... anyone that likes the outside of the steak really nice, uh, nice and, uh, charred and the inside rare, it's Pittsburgh char if the chef knows what they're doing, um, is, uh, absolutely delicious.Um, so what's happening there? I mean, they, you know, you said that heat changes the molecular structure, but what, what about those changes allow us to taste it, um, more, not just differently?

    18. HM

      Yeah.

    19. AH

      Because as you said, like, like raw steak is pretty bland. I mean, it, it... I mean most of us probably think of that as kind of gross, but, um, it's also kind of bland compared to when, um, when it's cooked. What's happening? What's being, uh, released into the, into the steak?

    20. HM

      Yeah. So what, what happens is that the materials of the tissue, and in the case of meat, it's mostly, uh, protein and fat. Um, those, um, macromolecules, large molecules that are too big for our senses to, uh, to register, get broken apart. And, um, that's because heat is energy. Energy, uh, agitates things. Um, it agitates molecules at the surface of the food enough to break them apart into much, much smaller pieces. And it's those pieces that we're, um, that we're experiencing when we take a bite. Uh, the pieces are not only much smaller, but they're, uh, also reactive so that they can react with each other, they can react with oxygen in the air surrounding the food. And so we end up with, um, you know, if you, if you did a, an analysis of the aroma coming off of, um, some steak tartare and coming off of a, a, uh, Pittsburgh char, um, you're gonna have very, very little, uh, noticeable, uh, even with, uh, instrumentation, but off of the, the steak, a tremendous amount of, um, volatile molecules, which are the ones that our, our noses detect. And then also molecules that are small enough to stimulate our taste receptors. So we have a handful and they, uh, we, we think of them as responding to sweet, sour, salt, bitter, umami, um, tastes. Um, w- we, we encounter those tastes in all kinds of things in everyday life, but when you, uh, cook a, a piece of meat to a high temperature and do, uh, a good amount of damage to that outer, uh, uh, molecular surface, you generate molecules that can stimulate those receptors even though they themselves are not sugars or salts or, or whatever. What I like to think of is just the alchemy of, uh, of heat. You know, you, you take this material, you add energy, and you transform it in ways that are delightful to us.

    21. AH

      So if I understand correctly, even though, um, the molecules in meat, uh, typically wouldn't stimulate the sweet receptor, when you cook steak, it starts to stimulate the sweet receptors because of the change in those molecules. You've, you've, you've reduced their size and you've changed their, their configuration, depending on which recipe you use.

    22. HM

      Yes. And, and you're also generating, uh, w- where once you might have had, um, you know, uh, uh, well, these days our enumeration of molecules has gotten so good that who knows exactly how many are in that raw piece of meat, but, uh, whatever that number is, it's multiplied manyfold by the application of heat simply because it's taking those materials, breaking them apart, getting them to react with each other, um, and, uh, the result is, uh, just a, an explosion of sensory, um, uh, information that simply wasn't there before.

  5. 22:10 – 29:56

    Umami, Savory Tastes, Braising & Meat

    1. HM

    2. AH

      We have to talk about umami.

    3. HM

      (laughs)

    4. AH

      I mean, a- and not just because the name is fun to say-

    5. HM

      (laughs)

    6. AH

      ... but, um, this, uh, receptor that seems to, uh, bind molecules, um, that give us the sensation, at least in part, of savoriness. Uh, I mean, to me, few things are as delicious as the, um, braise that comes off of meat in a cast iron pan-

    7. HM

      Mm-hmm.

    8. AH

      ... that I would literally scrape that stuff up onto the spatula and eat it if, uh, no one's looking.

    9. HM

      (laughs)

    10. AH

      Um, and anyone that thinks that that sounds gross, I mean, it is absolutely delicious. I mean, it is like the, the, the pinnacle of, like, why we eat protein. That's why it, it feels so darn delicious to me. Um, and the, the intensity of flavor per unit of, uh, whatever that stuff is-

    11. HM

      (laughs)

    12. AH

      ... um, is so high.

    13. HM

      Yeah, yeah.

    14. AH

      But then here's the thing. If you were to wait two hours and come back and pick up one of those little black, you know, um, crumbs of braise and put it in your mouth, it would kind of like punch you in the mouth, and it tastes like kind of awful, like you were licking the, um, the grill of a barbecue from two days before.

    15. HM

      (laughs)

    16. AH

      Not good. So what's going on with, with braise and with umami? And we can talk about a- a lot of non-meat, um, uh, ways to stimulate umami, but such a, an interesting aspect to food and taste.

    17. HM

      Yeah. Yeah. It is, and something that when I started writing about cooking in the '70s, no one believed it existed except for the Japanese scientists who were living in the country where it was discovered in the first place.

    18. AH

      That's right. They were the first to molecularly clone the umami receptor, as far as I know.

    19. HM

      And they were also the first to claim that there was a, uh, sensation, taste sensation, that was not sweet, sour, salt, or bitter, uh, which is why they were disbelieved in the West for, for decades and decades. And when I, uh, as I say, when I started writing, that was the standard view. Japanese have this weird idea of something, a, a basic taste, um, that's just simply not correct. Um, and I, I went to a couple of meetings in Boston and remembered this being debated.... among, uh, uh, chemists. First, I'll just say that, uh, I know exactly what you mean about the, that flavor, uh, of something that you apparently feel guilty about enjoying because (laughs) you-

    20. AH

      (laughs)

    21. HM

      ... said you would, uh, uh, scrape it up when no one was looking. When I was growing up, there were, we have a family of four children. Um, my mother would occasionally make a, uh, an oven-baked chicken, uh, cut up into pieces, and, um, the drippings would drip down to the pan-

    22. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    23. HM

      ... and brown. And after the meal, my siblings and I would line up for a spoonful of the scrapings.

    24. AH

      Delicious.

    25. HM

      (laughs)

    26. AH

      I can, I, I can smell it and taste it just a bit.

    27. HM

      (laughs)

    28. AH

      Yeah. Anyone-

    29. HM

      Yeah.

    30. AH

      ... that's cringing at that, you have not tasted proper braise from meat. Uh, it's, uh-

  6. 29:56 – 36:14

    Chemistry of Cooking & Eating, Sugars & Conjugates; Slowly Enjoying Food

    1. AH

      another question, too, which is, assuming that's true, would the absence of the sweet receptor perhaps make meat taste completely different? You know, in other words, is there crosstalk between these receptors so that when you eat something that's, uh, like, this spoonful of, of braise drippings off the, the roasted chicken, um, presumably there's a... some stimulation of the sweet receptors. If you only had umami receptors, may- maybe it wouldn't taste good at all. Is the chemistry of food occurring in the mouth, not just, um, in the food itself?

    2. HM

      Wonderful questions. I don't know where to begin exactly, ex- except to say that when you, um, brown a piece of meat or, uh, just cook it to a high temperature so that the outside of the meat changes color-Uh, that, that color change is indi- an indication of some, uh, uh, uh, a group of reactions called the Maillard reactions, after the guy who, uh, actually didn't quite address this, but he got, he got his name associated with it. Anyway, um, the Maillard reactions are essentially reactions between fragments of proteins and fragments of carbohydrates and fats.

    3. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    4. HM

      And, uh, the reaction pathways are really complicated. They still haven't been worked out completely, but they generate, uh, a bunch of different classes of products. And among those products are sugars. So you don't start out necessarily with sugars, but if you've got proteins and fats, you can make sugars-

    5. AH

      Interesting.

    6. HM

      ... simply with the alchemy of, uh, applying heat.

    7. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    8. HM

      So that's part of what's going on. And I would say that, um, yeah, tigers are missing out (laughs) because there's an interesting dimension of flavor to, to meat, uh, that, that has been cooked. There's the chemistry of cooking, and then there's the chemistry of enjoying, of tasting, uh, consuming. And it turns out, uh, that that's complicated in, in its own right, because first of all, we're presenting our sensory apparatus with, um, the most complex materials that they're going to encounter. Nature does not, uh, generate this kind of complexity. Uh, we're, we're doing it for ourselves. And that's part, I think, of the, of the great pleasure that we take from it. Um, but it also turns out that in the mouth, changes can take place. And this is act- it was actually first, uh, noticed by, uh, experts in wine, because they found that when they, um, put a raw grape in their mouth to taste, you know, what, what, what's the characteristics of th- of this particular grape and how does that carry over into the wine? What they noticed was that initially there's just the taste of the grape, but then as they sit there, other flavors begin to, uh, come. And because they were experts in wine-tasting, they were able to, uh, figure out wh- which ones they were, and they, they were, some of them, molecules that you find in the finished wine. And it's just in your mouth. You've just chewed it. So it turns out that there are in, um, all kinds of foods, um, molecules that are, uh, called conjugates. You know, they're, um, a kind of business end of the molecule, and then, uh, usually attached to a sugar of some kind. And, um, when we put something in our mouth and we have enzymes in our mouth, uh, those enzymes can go to work on things like conjugates and free up, um, the sugar from the, uh, rest of the molecule, and the rest of the molecule can be aromatic. And, uh, it's known now that the Maillard reactions generate not only sugars, but conjugates. And so, uh, there's, there's just a lot going on. And it's, it's a, uh, I think one of the best arguments for, uh, enjoying your food slowly-

    9. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    10. HM

      ... because you never know what's going to kind of show up in your mouth, uh, after, you know, 20 or 30 seconds. And slow down, enjoy every bite, and, and notice what's happening, uh, because it's, uh, it's often a, a really dynamic, uh, experience.

    11. AH

      We're gonna have a hard time convincing many people to slow down their rate of eating. However-

    12. HM

      (laughs)

    13. AH

      ... if you promise them a, a richer experience of the food and not just that they're trying to eat less or something, which is u- the usual reason that people hear-

    14. HM

      Yeah.

    15. AH

      ... they should chew their food, maybe improve digestion as well, um, they might be incentivized to do it. I should point out, of all the senses, um, it seems taste and its relationship to food, we have, um, more control over that experience. Like, let me state this differently. If I were to do a podcast on, you know, that simply by looking around the world differently, you could start to actually get new visual perceptual abilities, that'd be pretty exciting. But, uh, I'm sorry, but that's not true. It doesn't work. I mean, you could enhance your, you know, some discrimination of certain things if you were trained to look for them, but you're not gonna change your visual perceptual abilities.

    16. HM

      Yeah.

    17. AH

      But with taste, it sounds like we, we have the ability. So when you say slow down, do you mean, um, slow down the chewing, take pauses after, um, bites? Um, all of the above?

    18. HM

      Yeah, all of the above, because even after you swallow, there are residues in your mouth and at the back of your mouth, and that's what the wine experts noticed was the change in those residues. So it's not that they chewed on a grape and then kept it in their mouth for a minute. Uh, it was just what was left over. So-

    19. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    20. HM

      ... the leftovers can be as delicious as the main course.

    21. AH

      All right, I'm gonna start taking pauses between at least food types. Um...

  7. 36:14 – 43:56

    Savory Meal & Dessert; Food Course Order; Palate Cleansers

    1. AH

    2. HM

      (laughs)

    3. AH

      I've sometimes had the experience of eating something particularly delicious, um, for instance, uh, meat, um, or fruit or vegetables. I love all the, the... I'm an omnivore, so I love all these things, but I'm so satisfied with what I just ate that I don't want something sweet right away-

    4. HM

      Mm-hmm.

    5. AH

      ... because of the collision that occurs between foods. Am I alone in not liking dessert, but liking dessert foods on their own at a separate time? Am I, or am I just, like, on a desert island of experience here?

    6. HM

      (laughs) Oh, uh...No, I'm actually, uh, completely the same. Um, I, uh, I would prefer to have another half glass of wine than dessert.

    7. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    8. HM

      Uh, just simply to prolong the experience of the, the, the main part of the meal. Uh, and desserts, sweet things, I enjoy, but not after, um, a, a big meal of o- other things, savory things. Um, my wife, uh, who's Japanese, says she has, uh, a separate mouth and a separate stomach for desserts, and she can go right into it (laughs) after, um, after the, the main course. But yeah, I, I prefer not to.

    9. AH

      I feel like many people eat dinner just to get to dessert.

    10. HM

      (laughs)

    11. AH

      Let's actually talk about food order in the meal. Um, many years ago, uh, I had a girlfriend who was from the south of France, from the Perigord. So she grew up in what is arguably one of the food capitals of the, of the planet. You know, people think French, food, Paris, but actually, people in the south of France are so serious about food that her family would spend most of the day and the night and the meal talking about the next meal or a previous meal. Um, they would search for mushrooms with binoculars. If they spotted one in the neighbor's yard, they were, like, perplexed as to how to negotiate for that mushroom. You couldn't actually t- go get, uh, steal the mushroom. That would be a, like a car- a cardinal sin. I mean, they are so serious about food, every aspect of it, as you know. And we used to get into these intense arguments about the order in which one is supposed to eat food. And, you know, in her mind, it was soup first, because it actually prepares the gut, and then always salad last. This whole notion of eating, uh, salad at the beginning of the meal was like heresy to, uh, to, I mean, to everything that she had, had known and, and conceptualized about food. So, I have to believe that whether one likes French food or not, that they ha- they're onto something, that when it comes to digestion, when it comes to being able to really taste the, the full array of flavors in a food, that we probably should be doing soup first, then an appetizer, then an entree, and then salad last. And if we're not consuming an entire, you know, meal of that sort, that salad shouldn't be eaten at the beginning of a meal. Are they right?

    12. HM

      (laughs)

    13. AH

      I'm pretty sure that she was right. Uh, she was right about most things.

    14. HM

      Very good question, and I guess my answer would depend on the audience. So, (laughs) and I say that because, of course, if you go to a, a banquet in China, everything is served simultaneously.

    15. AH

      Really? They just slide it all out-

    16. HM

      Yeah.

    17. AH

      ... in front of you?

    18. HM

      Yeah, yeah.

    19. AH

      And do people-

    20. HM

      Or-

    21. AH

      ... eat everything in kind of mishmash order?

    22. HM

      Or there may be, um, phases, but you're presented with many, many different dishes at each phase.

    23. AH

      Oh, I would be so overwhelmed.

    24. HM

      And it is overwhelming. I, I, and you know, it's partly, uh, well, I, I don't want to, uh, generalize. Maybe it has to do with, um, perhaps, uh, emphasizing the, the, uh, abundance and, and generosity of the meal rather than focusing on the pleasure that you can get from each stage in it. Maybe it's, um, maybe the French are more focused on the, the sensory experience. But there are many, many different ways to, um, to sequence dishes in a meal, and, um, I, I think it does, the, the, the French way of doing it, uh, does make a lot of sense. Uh, my family and I lived in, uh, the countryside near Toulouse for a year and, um, ate around with the neighbors and so on.

    25. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    26. HM

      And, um, ate around with the neighbors and so on and, and my daughter, uh, and son went to school where they were given a full hour for lunch, and it was a coursed lunch with all those different components. Uh, so it, it, it does make sense, I think, because, um, having the soup, uh, come early helps, um, among other things, partly fill your stomach so that when you then go to the main course, um, you don't have to eat as much in order to be satisfied. And then the salad, you, you know the salad is coming and it kind of refreshes you because the main course is usually, um, on the heavy and rich side.

    27. AH

      Almost always.

    28. HM

      Yeah.

    29. AH

      Yeah, goose breast with foie gras was not uncommon in her household. (laughs)

    30. HM

      Yes.

  8. 43:56 – 47:18

    Salt, Baseline & Shifting Taste Preferences

    1. AH

    2. HM

      Yeah.

    3. AH

      My next question is a bit more of a human physiology question, but I think we're all familiar with the kind of, um, taste intensity drift. I can't think of a better phrase. Where, you know, if you are used to drinking your coffee black and you start putting a little bit of cream in it, uh, maybe a little bit of cream and a little bit of sugar, going back to black coffee feels like a step in the really bitter direction.

    4. HM

      Uh-huh.

    5. AH

      Um, and then if you start adding more sugar or eating sweeter foods, it seems like we reset our threshold for what we consider too sweet. And there are all sorts of health implications, negative health implications a- around this, but, um, is that a real thing? Are, are we actually changing our threshold for what we consider bitter or sweet? I ask this because recently I've developed a, um, I won't call it an addiction, but, um, a love for, um, cacao beans. And the first time I bit into one of those I thought, "Oh, like, those are bitter." And now it's one of my favorite parts of my morning, where I'm like pop five or six of those in my mouth and munch on them.

    6. HM

      (laughs)

    7. AH

      And they, they taste bitter but they taste so good and they're kind of barky. They have kind of like a bark taste to them. And I, I swear I can taste the polyphenols, although that's all, all cognitive, right? So what I just described is not uncommon, uh, for me. Uh, it ... What is this whole thing about thresholds for, for bitterness and sweet, and do they interact?

    8. HM

      Yeah, yeah. So taste is, uh, hugely malleable as far as we can tell. And, um, I think this is best documented in the literature trying to find ways to reduce the sodium content-

    9. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    10. HM

      ... of, of, um, packaged goods. So, um, manufacturers have been saying, um, long after, um, b- biomedical people were saying, "We should cut back on our sodium intake." Uh, "We would be happy to do that in our products, but our consumers don't like our products without the level of salt that we have in them." So people at the Monell Chemical Senses Center in Philadelphia did some, uh, pretty systematic studies of this, and what they found was that you can, over time, adjust, uh, thresholds and preferences for the basic tastes. They were focusing on salt because that was the, the issue at hand. Uh, but there's no reason to think that that's not, not the case for everything, that if you, uh, become used to a particular level of stimulation, then that becomes your, your new normal. And anything below or above that is going to stand out for being, uh, not quite enough or too much. So I think the, the w- we're perfectly capable of training ourselves to, uh, adjust our preferences. Um, uh, it does take time. So the Monell study, I think, lasted maybe a couple of months. Takes time, but, but it's certainly doable.

  9. 47:18 – 50:07

    Sponsors: AG1 & Mateina

    1. AH

      I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens. As somebody who's been involved in research science for almost three decades and in health and fitness for equally as long, I'm constantly looking for the best tools to improve my mental health, physical health, and performance. I discovered AG1 back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since. I find it improves all aspects of my health, my energy, my focus, and I simply feel much better when I take it. AG1 uses the highest quality ingredients in the right combinations, and they're constantly improving their formulas without increasing the cost. In fact, AG1 just launched their latest formula upgrade. This next-gen formula is based on exciting new research on the effects of probiotics on the gut microbiome. And it now includes several clinically studied probiotic strains shown to support both digestive health and immune system health, as well as to improve bowel regularity and to reduce bloating. Whenever I'm asked if I could take just one supplement, what that supplement would be, I always say, "AG1." If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman. For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil along with a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2. As I've highlighted before on this podcast, omega-3 fish oil and vitamin D3 K2 have been shown to help with everything from mood and brain health, to heart health, to healthy hormone status, and much more. Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to get a free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil plus a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 with your subscription.Today's episode is also brought to us by Mateena. Mateena makes loose leaf and ready-to-drink yerba mate. I've often discussed yerba mate's benefits, such as regulating blood sugar, its high antioxidant content, and the ways that it can improve digestion. It also may have possible neuroprotective effects. It's for those reasons, and the fact that yerba mate provides, in my opinion, the most even and steady rise in energy and focus with no crash, that yerba mate has long been my preferred source of caffeine. I also drink yerba mate because I love the taste. And while there are a lot of different yerba mate drinks out there, my absolute favorite is Mateena. I'm excited to share that Mateena has recently launched a series of new flavors of their cold brew, all zero-sugar yerba mate. There's a raspberry flavor, there's a mango flavor, there's a mint flavor, there's a lemon flavor, and a peach flavor, and they are absolutely incredible. If I had to pick one that's my absolute favorite, it would probably be the mango or the raspberry. But frankly, I cannot pick just one, and I end up having basically one of each every single day. Again, all of these flavors are made with the highest quality ingredients, all organic, and again, all zero sugar. If you'd like to try Mateena, you can go to drinkmateena.com/huberman. Again, that's drinkmateena.com/huberman.

  10. 50:07 – 53:37

    Whole vs Processed Foods, Taste & Enjoyment

    1. AH

      I stopped eating, quote-unquote, "junk food" a long time ago, and I've totally lost interest. In parallel to that, I enjoy strawberries and vegetables and meat and fish and eggs and rice and oatmeal so much more with each successive year.

    2. HM

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AH

      And I think it's in part because of this reshaping of, of what one considers flavorful. But I also feel like my experience of food is getting richer and richer, as opposed to worse and worse. So it's kind of interesting and, and kind of counterintuitive. Do we have any, um, evidence that if you eat foods closer to their, um, let's just say in their unadulterated form, that, uh, you get more out of the taste experience than if you are combining lots and lots of flavors, which is essentially what, um, processed foods are?

    4. HM

      Yeah. Um, I, I can't point to, uh, you know, chapter and verse in the, in the li- literature on this, but I think it just makes, uh, common sense that if you're, uh, going to start with strawberries and then add a bunch of other things, um, you know, vanilla extract and, uh, sugars and, uh, who knows what else, in order to, um, um, e- essentially, as processed foods try to do, just kind of wow your mouth with an overwhelming sensation that you then want to repeat, um, rather than slowing down and enjoying the nuances. Um, uh, the natural world gives us these amazing ingredients like strawberries and blueberries and oats and, and so on, and then to, to take those amazing ingredients which you can kind of savor for, you know, a minute at a time, uh, and, and really enjoy, uh, to, to take those ingredients and make them, um, ingredients rather than things in themselves, and combine them with lots of other things, uh, for the purpose of stimulation rather than the purpose of appreciating and enjoying those individual components. Then you're kind of, um, giving up, I would say, most of the pleasure of eating. You're just fueling yourself with stuff that, um, is going to give you an immediate hit of flavor and then be gone, and, uh, uh, m- what, what was in that food is opaque, you know?

    5. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    6. HM

      It, it may have been strawberries once upon a time, but, uh, it's now been masked by all these other things. And meanwhile, the, one of the miracles of living on this planet is strawberries, and the (laughs) , the, the just vast range of materials that plants have gone to the trouble of preparing for the sake of pleasing us.

    7. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    8. HM

      And so to, to hand that, um, that, uh, responsibility, or, or that activity over to manufacturers who are just looking to make things as cheaply and quickly as possible, I think is a, a mistake.

  11. 53:37 – 1:00:33

    Brewing Coffee, Water Temperature, Grind Size

    1. HM

    2. AH

      Do you drink coffee?

    3. HM

      I do.

    4. AH

      How do you prepare your coffee?

    5. HM

      I, uh, grind the beans and-

    6. AH

      Fresh every time?

    7. HM

      Yeah, yeah.

    8. AH

      Is that important to the taste?

    9. HM

      It can be.

    10. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    11. HM

      I mean, it depends on where you get your, your beans from. But, um, uh, and, and how long they last. Uh, but, uh, I, I think so, yeah.

    12. AH

      So, so you'll mill the beans each time?

    13. HM

      Yeah, yeah.

    14. AH

      And then, uh, you, uh, use a, a drip filter, a machine, a French press?

    15. HM

      Uh, a drip filter.

    16. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    17. HM

      Yeah, yeah.

    18. AH

      We have this colleague of ours at Stanford, uh, the, Adler who built the, the AeroPress, which I've used for years. Long before they were involved with the podcast, I, I remember, uh, seeing him, um, uh, throwing the Aerobie frisbee. So he's the inventor, right? And, um-

    19. HM

      Yeah.

    20. AH

      ... I, I think that the AeroPress is an interesting idea because it sort of combines French press and filter drip, right? It's kind of a... Um, but yeah, there is actually really interesting data that, um, coffee has some, uh, perhaps, uh, it seems, um, some, uh, powerful, uh, health-promoting effects.

    21. HM

      Mm-hmm.

    22. AH

      But it depends on how you brew it. So how are, how are you brewing it? Not that I'm going to get you to change the way you do anything with food or drink. (laughs)

    23. HM

      So I, I go back and forth between a, a metal filter and a, and a paper filter.

    24. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    25. HM

      And, um, yeah, I, I lived, uh, near the park where, uh, Alan Adler would, uh, f- fly his Aerobies. And so I visited with him and chatted about the, the AeroPress, and I, I like the idea a lot. And, uh, it seems to me you can control the flavor with it much more than you can with a, with a drip system simply because when it drips, it drips.

    26. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    27. HM

      But you can hold it into the, hold it in the Aero, uh, the AeroPress as long as you want.

    28. AH

      The temperature of water is so critical with coffee. Do you take it to a boil or no? I know people might think, "Gosh, they're really getting down to the weeds," but the flavor of coffee is completely different if you take the water to a boil versus just get it, um, near boil or, uh, cut off the heat a moment after it starts to boil. Completely different beverage-

    29. HM

      Yeah.

    30. AH

      ... in my opinion.

  12. 1:00:33 – 1:08:16

    Tea & Tannins, Growing Tea Plants; Tea & Meals, Polyphenols

    1. AH

    2. HM

      Yeah.

    3. AH

      Um, is there anything else we can do with our coffee and tea? You know, so I... The tannic flavor or the, the experience of a tea being too tannic is awful. It tastes metallic. Um, but when tea is done right, it's very smooth. What is this tannic smooth thing in the context of tea? Is it the same thing, large molecules, small molecules?

    4. HM

      Yeah, it's basically the same thing. It, it also depends on, you know, what's left in the tea leaf. So some teas are, uh, just by definition, going to be more tannic.... than others because they have been treated differently in order to make the dried tea. Um, I have, uh, three or four tea bushes in my backyard, and so I make tea every year. Um, whenever the new growth comes out, that's what you make tea with is the-

    5. AH

      What kind of tea do you make?

    6. HM

      Uh, that's the fun thing about having the bushes. I make all kinds, and I play around with them and, you know, see what happens if I just, you know, pluck a leaf and brew that, or pluck a leaf, let it wither in the sun and then brew that, or do the various processing techniques. They give you oolong, which is kind of medium, um, uh, manipulated, and then black tea is very heavily manipulated, but it's a whole spectrum and it's a lot of fun to play with.

    7. AH

      And you're just putting these directly into hot water or you put it in a, like a metal tea strainer?

    8. HM

      For most of them, what you have to do first is dry them.

    9. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    10. HM

      Uh, but then when I make tea, um, yeah, it's just leaves into a pot and then, uh, pouring the tea out. I, I make small pots so, so that I can try lots of different things.

    11. AH

      H- how do you dry them?

    12. HM

      Uh, that's another variable. So you can let them air dry. You can-

    13. AH

      Just out on the counter?

    14. HM

      Yeah. Yeah.

    15. AH

      Mm-hmm. Okay.

    16. HM

      It takes, takes, um... I live in San Francisco, so it's not very warm. So it takes a while (laughs) for them to dry on the counter, but you can also... I put them in the, uh, toaster oven. I'll dry them... A lot of Chinese green teas even are dried in a, in a wok.

    17. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    18. HM

      So I will do that.

    19. AH

      You heat 'em up in the wok?

    20. HM

      Yeah. Yeah. Uh, toaster oven. Um, yeah.

    21. AH

      Uh, somebody who's obsessed with yerba mate... Since I was a k- kid, I've been drinking yerba mate and I, I love, love, love it, as y- as people know. Um, I'm fascinated by this. So, um, how much space does one of these plants take up?

    22. HM

      Well, uh, so it, it, it totally depends. The, uh... Uh, I bought mine originally as, um, quarter meter tall. Um, not exactly seedling because they are bushes and so they, they get, uh, lignified pretty quickly. They're, they're more-

    23. AH

      What's lignified? Sorry.

    24. HM

      Um, like, like a tree, so-

    25. AH

      Hmm. Okay.

    26. HM

      Yeah, solid, a solid base.

    27. AH

      Oh, like ligand. Okay. Yeah.

    28. HM

      Yeah.

    29. AH

      Lignified. Yeah.

    30. HM

      Um, so, uh, it... And, uh, one of the cool things about being alive these days is that, um, it used to be really hard to get your hands on these plants, but now it's very easy. You can go, go online. You can find many, many different sources at many different, uh, maturities. But the, the thing about making tea from tea plants is that what you're doing is plucking off the new growth. That's what you make tea from. It's not the older leaves, it's the, the very newest ones which are the most metabolically active and have the most interesting stuff in them, interesting for us when we play with them. So, uh, you actually don't want to make tea from small plants. You wanna let them grow bigger, and you can control the, the size from, from then on up. Um, they're, they're often grown in the shade, uh, for flavor purposes and so growing them in the shade is actually fine. You don't have to have a sunny spot on your, uh, windowsill, although it'll grow faster in the sun. But, but shade-grown tea is, um, is actually preferred. Um, and then they're, they're a species of camellia, so they're, you know, not that demanding. They, they need acidic soil, but apart from that, very easy to grow. I've had mine now for almost 20 years, and, uh, um, making tea from them is actually a great way to keep them in check, you know, otherwise they would take over the yard.

  13. 1:08:16 – 1:11:34

    Food Combinations, Individual Tolerance; Is there an Optimal Diet?

    1. HM

    2. AH

      Years ago, there was a semi-popular diet, this was in the early '90s, um, that argued that you shouldn't combine carbohydrates and proteins, that you should actually eat them separately. And I've also heard it said that you want to eat fruit before a meal or away from a meal, but not after a meal because it can give you digestive issues. I'm sure people differ tremendously in terms of what they can consume. I, I'm actually one of these people, like, if I have a stomachache, it means something is seriously wrong, yet-

    3. HM

      Mm-hmm.

    4. AH

      I mean, I can eat everything except metal shavings and my stomach doesn't hurt. I don't get headaches or stomachaches. I get other things, but I don't get those. Some people are very sensitive to food combinations, they get stomachaches really easily. So, um, regardless of one's sensitivity to different foods, are there certain foods that it would make sense to keep them separate if you have digestive issues, you know, or, um, you know, bloating or, um, just like gurgling stomach, this kind of thing, or worse?

    5. HM

      Yeah. So, um, my understanding is... Well, first of all, I know for a fact that, uh, we have cycled through every possible permutation of these theories over the course of the last 150 years, um, with no one of them actually being touted now as th- the answer. So, to me, what that says is there is no the answer for this kind of question, and that it really does depend on individual physiology and what, what people can tolerate, um, for their own particular reasons.

    6. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    7. HM

      I don't think there are any, um, principles by which you can choose to, uh, combine or not combine foods-

    8. AH

      Hmm.

    9. HM

      ... um, that would make a difference to your health. Also, it's, um, you know, we're, we're eating so many different things so many times a day that, uh, it, I think would be really hard to kind of tease out any particular re- relationships like this. And even if they do exist, they probably exist only for subpopulations and not for the world at large.

    10. AH

      So, translated, what I'm hearing is you have to figure out what works for you. Doesn't sound like you believe in one particular, um, nutrition plan or diet according to any particular science. But it does sound like you are leaning toward the idea that certain diets, for lack of a better word, will work better for different people.

    11. HM

      Yeah. I guess I would, I would certainly say that it would depend on the, the individual. And I'm, I'm not sure that I would buy in necessarily to the idea of an optimal diet in the first place because, um, uh, unless optimal included, uh, tremendously varied (laughs) -

    12. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    13. HM

      ... which is kind of, you know, uh, uh, in a way, the opposite of optimal, you know? It's, it's making sure to try, uh, a lot of different things all the time rather than hewing to one particular, um, approach. So, um, yeah. I, I think we just don't know enough to-

    14. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    15. HM

      ... to say anything definitive.

  14. 1:11:34 – 1:13:55

    Onions & Garlic, Histamines, Tool: Reduce Crying when Cutting Onions

    1. HM

    2. AH

      Can we talk about the, uh, ever problematic onions and garlic?

    3. HM

      (laughs)

    4. AH

      There's a lot of chemistry around onions-

    5. HM

      (laughs)

    6. AH

      ... and garlic, uh, most notably the crying caused by, uh, onions. What is the basis of the crying caused by onions and how do we mitigate it?

    7. HM

      So, uh, plants in that family, the allium family, uh, so onions and garlic are close relatives. Um, they... The way that they defend themselves from animals that might want to eat them, and they're not fruits, they're actually roots or, um, root-like structures that are meant to give rise to the next generation, so to the plant, they're very important. They're defended with these sulfur molecules that in the intact root are, uh, inactive. But then the moment the tissues are disrupted, enzymes get to work and generate from those, uh, precursors kind of, um, uh, chemical warfare cylinders. The, the cylinders are opened and, uh, we end up with these, um, uh, molecules that can fly through the air, they're volatile, we don't have to actually touch the, the onion. They, they come to us tho- these molecules, uh, and they're meant to do exactly what they do, which is make us, uh, miserable. So the fact that they're, uh, volatile means that you can, uh, protect yourself by doing a couple of different things. You can wear goggles, which (laughs) present- prevents volatile molecules from getting to your eyes. You can do the, uh, the cutting...... uh, i-interspersed with just a rinse in water, because that'll, the, the, um, molecules are being generated at the surface that you're generating by doing the cutting. So, if occasionally you just rinse those surfaces, then, um, the volatiles go away and they don't bother you as much. You can also get, um, um, non-pungent varieties of onions, which, which exist. Um, Maui onions are the, the best known of those. And they just don't make those sulfur molecules so that they don't, uh, they don't, uh, irritate us.

  15. 1:13:55 – 1:17:21

    Gut Sensitivities & Food, Capsaicin & Spicy Foods

    1. HM

    2. AH

      I'm reminded that our colleague at Stanford, um, Dr. Sean Mackey, who runs the pain division, when he was on this podcast, he said that, uh, despite many years of traditional, uh, training in medicine and thinking that a lot of people's reported, uh, gut issues were perhaps psychosomatic and all this stuff, he, that he himself had the experience of, um, I think a lot of gut pain at one point in his life just, and, and not knowing what the origin was. And it seemed like it was after certain meals and not others, and he did all the necessary self-experimentation to pinpoint that it was onions that were causing this very, what sounded like, pretty severe, um, gastric issues and pain. Um, and it was the histamines caused by ingesting onions, right? These little packets of molecules that cause inflammation. And so, uh, that in part converted into this idea that, you know, when people talk about their, their negative experiences with certain foods, that, um, they're not making this stuff up, that it's very likely that they have some sort of food sensitivity. And I think now the, the landscape of, quote unquote, "traditional medicine" is starting to become more open to this. But, um, in hearing what you just described, like these warfare molecules coming out of onions, um, stimulating a negative re- this... they're designed to create a, an aversive reaction in animals that would eat them, and here we are eating these things. And then the idea that it would be bad for certain people at first seemed like shocking to the standard, uh, medical community. But now one of the, you know, leading experts in the, in the world of pain medicine is like, "Hey, listen, histamines from onions are a problem for people with gut issues sometimes, not always."

    3. HM

      Mm-hmm.

    4. AH

      So, I think, um, there's an interesting kind of intersection of, of food chemistry, individual experience, and kind of where medicine is headed. Uh, it's, it's not crazy. These are chemicals coming out of food.

    5. HM

      Yeah, yeah.

    6. AH

      Makes sense.

    7. HM

      Yeah, exactly. And maybe the, the most prominent example of an aversive chemical being generated in foods that we love is capsaicin-

    8. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    9. HM

      ... in peppers. So hot peppers, uh, the, the, uh, the ones that are spicy are spicy f- because they contain a particular molecule that is designed to be aversive to animals so that animals won't, um, chew up those fruits before the seeds can be dispersed. And interestingly, the, the animals that the plant depends on for dispersal are birds, and birds don't, uh, respond to capsaicin. They don't have the-

    10. AH

      Really?

    11. HM

      Yeah. Yeah. So this is a, a molecule that, that's designed specifically for mammals like us to get us to leave those, those, uh, fruits alone. And, um, some people can handle tremendously noxious (laughs) -

    12. AH

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    13. HM

      ... shall we say, uh, levels of capsaicin-

    14. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    15. HM

      ... and other people are very, very sensitive and, and, um, can't, can't handle hardly any. So yeah. It, it's all part of this, um, this larger picture of the world giving us these materials to feed ourselves and our working out our, um, negotiations with those materials so that we can enjoy them and be nourished by them.

  16. 1:17:21 – 1:21:57

    Supertasters & Taste Buds, Bitter Taste, Chefs

    1. HM

    2. AH

      I want to explore spiciness a bit more in a moment, but are there any data that there are genetic differences, uh, among people in terms of the density of, um, I think the capsaicin receptor is a substance P receptor, uh, or something like that, or sweet receptors or umami receptors that would perhaps not predict, but partially explain why some people are really averse to spice, other people pursue spice, um, and why some foods perhaps just like don't taste good to certain people or even give them gut issues or, uh, this sort of thing?

    3. HM

      So the, the best studied, uh, aspect of this is taste rather than smell. Smell is difficult because there's so many different receptors and thousands and thousands of, uh, smells. But taste is a relatively, uh, confined subject, and there are, um, what are called super tasters. And this has to do e- eventually I'm sure with genetics, but the way this category of people was first defined was by simply counting taste buds on the tongue. So they, they had a particular area in which they could look, and they stained the, the taste buds and then simply counted them, enumerated them on, uh, thousands of different people. And what they found was, as you might expect, uh, there are some people with very, very few in a given area and others w- where they're so crowded together you can barely count them.

    4. AH

      Wow. So high pixel density, low pixel density.

    5. HM

      Yeah. Yeah.

    6. AH

      Some people have the iPhone 1, some people have the iPhone-

    7. HM

      (laughs) .

    8. AH

      ... whatever we're on now of, uh-

    9. HM

      Yeah. (laughs) .

    10. AH

      ... 16 or something or 13, uh, density. Wow.

    11. HM

      Yeah. Yeah. So clearly that's going to affect the way you experience whatever you put in your mouth. And, um, uh, they, the investigators gave the name super taster to the people who had the highest density of, um, of receptors. It, it's unfortunate because, you know, the, the term does have, um-... connotations that are, uh, that really don't belong. It's just some people have lots of taste receptors-

    12. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    13. HM

      ... and other people don't have very many.

    14. AH

      Well, I guess the question is, do the people who have higher density of taste receptors have better taste discrimination? Can they tell two, uh, foods apart or beverages apart on a dimension of say, sweetness, that somebody with lower, uh, density receptors can't?

    15. HM

      So, that's a, a really good question, and, um, my, uh, I, I don't know exactly the answer to that. But what I do know is that, um, you would think that supertaster sounds great, that's what I want, is to be able to taste more. In fact, supertasters are, uh, especially sensitive to bitterness and to acidity-

    16. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    17. HM

      ... to the point that, uh, foods that other people enjoy just fine, they find aversive, simply because the, the sensation is overwhelming. So, I used to teach a course at the French Culinary Institute, no longer with us, uh, in New York, and we would often have chefs in the, uh, course, along with just ordinary people. The ch- and we would do a, a taste test to, uh, uh, a proxy for counting the number of taste buds. You can give people, uh, a very bitter substance at a, at a known level on a little piece of filter paper, and then ask people to rate, does this taste extremely bitter, kind of bitter, or what, what bitter (laughs) ?

    18. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    19. HM

      Um, and, uh, the chefs would always be, uh, upset if they did not score as supertasters, because super means, you know, you're, you're a really good taster. But, um, talk to them and you find out that, um, it's often difficult for chefs, uh, to kind of match the flavor preferences of their customers. And one of the reasons for that can be that if you're a supertaster as a chef, you're gonna dial down all kinds of things that, uh, to an ordinary taster, may leave the food tasting bland.

    20. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    21. HM

      So, um, it's something that, uh, there, there's no right thing to be, but if you're a professional in the food world, you need to know what you are and how to compensate for it if you, if you need to.

  17. 1:21:57 – 1:23:45

    Sponsor: Function

    1. HM

    2. AH

      I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function. Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health. This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more. They've also recently added tests for toxins, such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFASs, or forever chemicals. Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas. For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood. Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC and acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification. And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked. Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important. There are so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test. The problem is, blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated. In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost. It is very affordable. As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman. Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.

  18. 1:23:45 – 1:26:11

    Salt & Bitter, Salting Fruit, Beer or Coffee, Warming Beer

    1. AH

      Do you salt your fruit? A few years ago, there was this, like, uh, trend of salting fruit. Remember that? Um, I tried it. I love fruit. I love salt. Um, wasn't such a fan of salting fruit, but I don't want to dismiss it right off the bat. Does it do anything interesting to fruit in a way that should have me return to that?

    2. HM

      Yeah, no. I, I think it's, it's a completely individual thing. My grandmother would salt her grapefruit.

    3. AH

      Oh, yeah.

    4. HM

      And-

    5. AH

      Oh, no. We would put sugar on our grapefruit when we were kids.

    6. HM

      Yeah, yeah.

    7. AH

      Sucrose, okay. So, she would salt her grapefruit?

    8. HM

      She would, she would salt her grapefruit.

    9. AH

      Oh.

    10. HM

      And it turns out, we know now, that, in fact, salt and bitter are kind of opposing, um, sensations, and you can actually diminish the sensation of bitterness by upping the salt. So, she was making it less bitter without adding sugar, which to her was im- was important. She used, um, you know, uh, the, the artificial sweetener of the day in her tea in the morning.

    11. AH

      That's interesting. I, I know people who put a tiny, tiny bit of salt in their coffee-

    12. HM

      Mm-hmm.

    13. AH

      ... to, according to them, take the edge off. Meaning, to take the bitterness out.

    14. HM

      Yeah.

    15. AH

      It makes sense.

    16. HM

      Yeah, yeah. It does.

    17. AH

      Based on the chemistry, this push-pull of s- of, of bitter and, um, salty, salty tastes.

    18. HM

      Yeah, yeah.

    19. AH

      Pretty much everything in the nervous system is push-pull.

    20. HM

      Yeah. And that, that goes, by the way, for things like beer. Uh, some people will add a, a pinch of, uh, salt to their beer.

    21. AH

      The only place in the world where I enjoy beer is, um, in Munich, where they serve beer ... well, maybe it's the schnitzel that they're ... it's-

    22. HM

      (laughs)

    23. AH

      You know, I, I love that stuff. Um, but they'll come around-...with a heater, and they'll heat your beer so that it's room temperature.

    24. HM

      Ah.

    25. AH

      And it completely changes the taste. The bubbles are small in those beers. Uh, they taste to me just a little bit sweeter, and, um, I asked them about this, and, and the idea that you would drink a cold beer, to them, was like, "What are you talking about?"

    26. HM

      (laughs)

    27. AH

      I mean, you might as well tell an American that they should, um, have their apple pie with, um, with, uh, spaghetti on top or something. It's crazy.

    28. HM

      (laughs)

    29. AH

      Let's talk about alcohol,

  19. 1:26:11 – 1:29:25

    Human History of Alcohol & Chocolate

    1. AH

      even though I'm not a drinker. Uh, I know people enjoy a little bit of wine or spirits or, or beer, and I'm, I'm, I suppose as long as people aren't alcoholics and they're of age, like, you know-

    2. HM

      (laughs)

    3. AH

      ...uh, small amounts of consumption are, are, are, uh, probably okay. Um, zero's better, but, um... So let's talk about wine and beer. W- what's the, the brief history on, on this? When did people start fermenting fruit and hops and, um, and, and this whole business of creating poison to ingest-

    4. HM

      (laughs)

    5. AH

      ...um, because it tastes good and gets them-

    6. HM

      (laughs)

    7. AH

      ...uh, a little bit inebriated? W- what, what is this?

    8. HM

      So, um, the, this is actually an, an area where we're learning more every year, because people are, uh, especially at archeological sites are pushing dates back and so on, and finding evidence for this kind of thing. The, the, the ability to detect, uh, residues in pots is, uh, is just amazing these days. But, um, my guess is, and it's been argued that, um, we have been enjoying alcohol since before we were Homo sapiens, that-

    9. AH

      Really?

    10. HM

      Yes. That primates, in fact, uh, when you observe them, will go after, uh, fermenting fruit and enjoy it, and they'll seek out and pick those fruits and not, not others. And I bet, uh, I... It's not a literature I keep up with, but I bet that there are some behavioral studies as well to in- to suggest whether or not the, uh, ingestion of the fruit is actually having an effect on their coordination, for example. I, I bet there are studies like that. Um, so we've been enjoying, um, alcohol before we were Homo sapiens, and in the archeological record, um, the dates have been pushed back now to the, the very beginnings of agriculture and in many different places. So China, uh, the Middle East, um... It's just, um, an attractive (laughs) uh, possibility, uh, which probably did simply start with, um, you know, collecting a bunch of fruit, not getting around to eating it right away, and, you know, it beginning to smell interesting, and you try it, and it does things.

    11. AH

      Humans daring other humans to try things.

    12. HM

      (laughs)

    13. AH

      Hmm.

    14. HM

      Which I think is also, by the way, uh, how chocolate was discovered, uh, or the, the possibilities for chocolate. So, cacao beans are the seeds in a fruit, and the current thinking is that, um, the fruits were gathered for the fruit, and the seeds, which are large, were simply thrown in a pile near the pi- uh, near the fire. And, uh, there, there were enough residues of the fruit on the seeds for those residues to ferment, and that's the first step in making chocolate.

    15. AH

      Mm-hmm.

  20. 1:29:25 – 1:35:49

    Wine Expense vs Taste, Wine Knowledge

    1. AH

      So with respect to alcohol, um, I mean, alcohol has, as you mentioned, a long history. Um, I've heard it said that despite so much fascination and money spent on different wines, depending on, uh, the make and the label and the year in particular and how the grapes were that year, depending on how the weather was that year and the soil, and, you know, so much goes into this, a huge industry. Um, but every once in a while, there'll be a study published where they'll do a blind taste test, and some of the most experienced, um, AKA expert, uh, wine drinkers won't be able to discern, uh, the finest wine or near finest wine from a far more trivial, inexpensive wine. And that always seems to send everyone into disarray for a couple of weeks, and then everyone goes right back to, um-

    2. HM

      (laughs)

    3. AH

      ...distributing their wine consumption according to their income and what they perceive to be the better wine. It's kind of a wild, um, foray into human psychology. Like, if this is true, that these expert wine drinkers can't discern, like, a $20 bottle of wine from a $2,000 bottle of wine, and yet they insist on g- returning to the, the practice of preferentially buying and consuming more expensive wines if they have the means, I mean, that says all sorts of things about humans-

    4. HM

      (laughs)

    5. AH

      ...and the way we place value on things. But I want to know, are the more expensive wines actually truly better from the perspective of taste and, um, through the lens of, uh, let's just say a, uh, a novice and an expert wine drinker? What's the deal?

    6. HM

      Yeah, yeah. Uh, so, uh, this, I think, is, uh, really complicated in all kinds of interesting ways. Um, and I think, to begin with, uh, it's true that people have, uh, done things like, um, serve red wines, expensive red wines alongside white wines that had been dyed red and asked people, ask, asked experts to, uh, to judge them and comment on them, and the experts being fooled by the, uh, by the food coloring.So I think it's, uh, it's in large part, to begin with, a f- a matter of what we're expecting to happen when we taste something. Uh, and, uh, if we have expectations, then those expectations are going to influence our perception. Uh, and there are a couple of wonderful books by, uh, a neurobiologist named Gordon Shepherd-

    7. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    8. HM

      ... on exactly this, uh, these subjects. Um, so it's, it's a, it's a, uh, um, a complicated loop. We, we have expectations. We taste something. The expectations play into what we think we experience, uh, and our conclusions from that experience, which is no knock on the wines. It's just the, the fact of, and our, our imperfect nature as sensory beings. Uh, then when it comes to the wines themselves and the kind of variation that you find, uh, from, uh, from different kinds of wine, makers, locations, uh, weather, treatment during the winemaking process, all, all those different things, um, if you work at it, you can train yourself to notice minute differences just as you can train yourself to notice minute diff- differences in all kinds of other things that, that we care about. Uh, art connoisseurship, for example, you know, is, uh, knowing something about the history of art and, um, and about the materials and that kind of thing. They all play into our judgment. And what we're talking about when we're talking about the, the, uh, what, whether a wine is better than another, it's a judgment. And, uh, I think the more you know about, uh, if, if you care to know, the more you know about, uh, a particular, uh, material, the better you're able to either appreciate it or depreciate it, uh, depending.

Episode duration: 2:13:19

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