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Timing Light, Food, & Exercise for Better Sleep, Energy & Mood | Dr. Samer Hattar

In this episode I host Dr. Samer Hattar, Chief of the Section on Light and Circadian Rhythms at the National Institute of Mental Health. Dr. Hattar is a world-renowned expert on how viewing light at particular times adjusts our mood, ability to learn, stress and hormone levels, appetite and mental health. We discuss how to determine and use your individual light sensitivity to determine the optimal sleep–wake cycle for you. We also discuss how to combine your light viewing and waking time with the timing of your food intake and exercise in order to maximize mental and physical functioning. Dr. Hattar is credited with co-discovering the neurons in the eye that set our circadian clocks and regulate mood and appetite. He explains why even a small shift in daylight saving time leads to outsized effects on our biology because our cells and circadian clocks integrate across many days. He offers precise tools to rapidly adjust to jet lag, shift work and reset your clock after a late night of work or socializing. This episode is filled with cutting-edge data on the biological mechanisms of human physiology and practical tools for people of all ages. For an up-to-date list of our current sponsors, please visit our website: https://www.hubermanlab.com/sponsors. Previous sponsors mentioned in this podcast episode may no longer be affiliated with us. Social: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/hubermanlab Twitter - https://twitter.com/hubermanlab Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/hubermanlab Website - https://hubermanlab.com Newsletter - https://hubermanlab.com/neural-network Samer Hattar: Twitter: https://twitter.com/samerhattar Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/samerhattar Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samer_Hattar Links: Graphical Explanation of Temperature Minimum for Overcoming Jetlag: https://www.instagram.com/tv/CKWiRVJHVwC/ Timestamps: 00:00:00 Introducing Dr. Samer Hattar, Ph.D. 00:02:17 Sponsors: ROKA, InsideTracker, Magic Spoon 00:06:15 Light, Circadian (24 hour) & Circannual (365 day) “Photoentrainment” 00:14:30 Neurons in Our Eyes That Set Our Body Clocks: Similar to Frog Skin 00:18:55 What Blind People See 00:20:15 When, How & How Long to View Light for Optimal Sleep & Wakefulness 00:30:20 Sunlight Simulators, Afternoon Light Viewing, Naps 00:33:48 Are You Jet Lagged at Home? Chronotypes & Why Early Risers Succeed 00:38:33 How to Decide Your Best Sleep-Wake Schedule; Minimal Light Test 00:42:16 Viewing Light in Middle of Day: Mood & “Light Hunger” 00:44:55 Evening Sunlight; Blueblocker Warning 00:48:57 Blue Light Is Not the Issue; Samer’s Cave; Complete Darkness 00:53:58 Screens at Night 00:56:03 Dangers of Bright Light Between 10 pm and 4 am: Mood & Learning 01:01:05 The Tripartite Model: Circadian, Sleep Drive, Feeding Schedules 01:05:05 Using Light to Enhance Your Mood; & The Hattar-Hernandez Nucleus 01:07:19 Why Do We Sleep? 01:08:17 Effects of Light on Appetite; Regular Light & Meal Times 01:18:08 Samer’s Experience with Adjusting Meal Timing 01:22:51 Using Light to Align Sleep, Mood, Feeding, Exercise & Cognition 01:30:15 Age-Related Changes in Timing of Mental & Physical Vigor 01:31:44 “Chrono-Attraction” in Relationships; Social-Rhythms 01:33:40 Re-setting Our Clock Schedule; Screen Devices Revisited 01:37:50 How Samer Got into the Study of Light 01:39:33 Clock Gene mRNAs & More Accurate Biomarkers 01:41:08 Light as Medicine 01:42:48 ADHD (Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder) 01:43:35 How to Beat Jet Lag: Light, Temperature, Eating 01:50:44 Vigor: The Consequence of Proper Timing 01:52:15 Waking in the Middle of the Night: When Your Nightly Sleep Becomes a Nap 01:54:10 Melatonin, Pineal Calcification 01:55:25 Our Seasonal Rhythms: Mood, Depression, Lethargy & Reproduction 01:59:08 Daylight Savings: Much Worse Than It Might Seem 02:05:27 Eye Color & Sensitivity to Light, Bipolar Disorder 02:09:28 Spicy Food, Genetic Variations in Sensory Sensitivity 02:10:52 Synthesizing This Information, Samer on Twitter, Instagram 02:13:00 Conclusions, Ways To Support the Huberman Lab Podcast & Research Please note that The Huberman Lab Podcast is distinct from Dr. Huberman's teaching and research roles at Stanford University School of Medicine. The information provided in this show is not medical advice, nor should it be taken or applied as a replacement for medical advice. The Huberman Lab Podcast, its employees, guests and affiliates assume no liability for the application of the information discussed.

Andrew HubermanhostDr. Samer Hattarguest
Oct 25, 20212h 14mWatch on YouTube ↗

CHAPTERS

  1. 0:00 – 7:10

    Introduction, Guest Background, and Discovery of a Second Visual System

    Huberman introduces Dr. Samer Hattar, highlighting his role in discovering light-sensing retinal cells that set the circadian clock and influence mood, metabolism, and immunity. They set the stage for a discussion of how subconscious light perception shapes health and behavior. Hattar begins to explain the concept of circadian rhythms and why they run slightly longer than 24 hours without light cues.

  2. 7:10 – 18:50

    How Circadian Clocks Work and Why Light Matters

    Hattar explains how the circadian system manifests at the cellular, tissue, and behavioral levels, with sleep-wake cycles as the most obvious output. He details why small daily errors in clock timing accumulate into large misalignments, with major implications for survival and functioning. The role of sunlight in continuously correcting this drift and aligning us to the solar day is emphasized.

  3. 18:50 – 35:50

    Discovery of ipRGCs and Melanopsin: Subconscious Light Detection

    They revisit the landmark discovery that certain retinal ganglion cells are themselves photoreceptors expressing melanopsin. Unlike rods and cones, which form conscious images, ipRGCs send light intensity information to brain regions that regulate circadian rhythms and physiology subconsciously. This explains why some totally blind individuals with intact eyes can still entrain to light-dark cycles.

  4. 35:50 – 48:20

    Light Intensity, Measuring Brightness, and Morning Light Protocols

    Hattar clarifies that our conscious sense of brightness is poor because rods and cones adapt, but ipRGCs track absolute light intensity more linearly. He then turns to practical advice: get bright outdoor light soon after waking to properly set your clock, even on cloudy days. Duration should scale with brightness, and going outside beats indoor light through windows.

  5. 48:20 – 58:40

    Midday and Evening Light: How Much, When, and Why

    The conversation shifts to light behavior later in the day. Midday bright light reinforces the sense of daytime and may support mood and alertness, though it’s not strictly required for circadian entrainment if morning light is solid. Late-day exposure should taper off, and nighttime environments should be kept as dim as possible to avoid clock disruption and sleep impairment.

  6. 58:40 – 1:11:40

    Evening Light, Blue Blockers, and Creating a ‘Cave’ at Night

    Hattar argues against indiscriminate use of blue-blocking glasses, especially during the day, noting that ipRGCs respond across a broad spectrum and that full-spectrum ‘white’ light is natural for vision. Instead, he recommends globally dimming lights at night and, if needed, shifting spectra toward warmer tones while preserving white appearance. He describes his own very dim, candle-lit evenings and methods for reducing screen impact.

  7. 1:11:40 – 1:23:00

    Direct Effects of Light on Mood and Learning: Beyond the Clock

    They review Hattar’s Nature paper showing that changing light schedules can induce depressive-like behavior and learning deficits in animals without altering the circadian clock or causing sleep loss. This demonstrates that light has direct effects on mood and cognition through distinct neural pathways. Hattar introduces the perihabenular nucleus as a key hub linking ipRGCs to mood-regulating cortical circuits.

  8. 1:23:00 – 1:37:30

    The Tripartite Model: Circadian, Homeostatic, and Direct Environmental Inputs

    Hattar formalizes the “tripartite model” of behavioral regulation: circadian timing (light-driven), homeostatic sleep drive, and direct environmental effects (light, stress, etc.). He argues that considering only one component—such as the circadian clock or sleep pressure—will always miss important dynamics. The model is applied to sleep, feeding, and mood, illustrating why protocols must integrate light, behavior, and internal states.

  9. 1:37:30 – 1:48:20

    Light, Feeding, and the Arcuate Nucleus: Rethinking Hunger

    They delve into Hattar’s work on how light interacts with feeding circuits. Contrary to expectations, animals lacking light-entrainment mechanisms were *less*, not more, entrainable by food timing, revealing strong interdependence between light and feeding cues. Hattar explains how the arcuate nucleus monitors energy status, but in modern environments much eating is driven by timing and desire rather than true caloric need.

  10. 1:48:20 – 2:03:40

    Personal Protocols: How Hattar Used Circadian Science to Lose Weight

    Hattar shares how he applied his own research to drop from about 275 pounds to around 219. He aligned his sleep (roughly 9 p.m.–4:30–5 a.m.), concentrated caloric intake in the morning and mid-day, minimized dinner, and maintained consistent light exposure. He notes that his strongest hunger window is midday (roughly equivalent to evening for many people), and that eating late—even when not hungry—tended to promote weight gain.

  11. 2:03:40 – 2:25:40

    Chronotypes, Social Rhythms, and Exercise Timing

    They discuss chronotypes (morningness/eveningness) and whether these are intrinsic or shaped largely by light and behavior. Hattar is skeptical that extreme chronotypes are as common as often claimed, highlighting how late light exposure and social habits can shift clocks. He describes how evening exercise in a bright gym derailed his sleep and weight, reinforcing the need to match exercise timing to one’s aligned sleep-wake rhythm.

  12. 2:25:40 – 2:43:30

    Jet Lag, At-Home Misalignment, and Practical Re-Entraining Strategies

    Using examples like New York to Italy travel, Hattar explains how mistimed light can send your clock in the opposite direction of your destination (e.g., toward California instead of Europe). He clarifies the concepts of phase advances and delays relative to the body’s temperature minimum. These same principles apply to people who are deeply off-schedule at home, including those whose pandemic routines led to social jet lag.

  13. 2:43:30 – 2:58:00

    Seasonality, Daylight Saving Time, and Population-Level Misalignment

    They explore seasonal changes in light, mood, and behavior, particularly in high latitudes. Hattar criticizes daylight saving time as an unnecessary and harmful ‘bump’ in an otherwise smooth seasonal light curve, arguing it worsens misalignment for both morning and evening types. He underscores that humans almost certainly experience real seasonality, but artificial lighting and clock changes obscure and distort it.

  14. 2:58:00

    Future Directions, Clinical Applications, and Closing Thoughts

    In closing, Hattar and Huberman discuss the promise of light-based interventions for conditions like depression and ADHD, and the potential of “chrono-medicine” to time drugs and treatments to individual circadian phases. Hattar notes the current lack of simple clinical tools to measure ipRGC sensitivity but points to emerging blood-based circadian phase markers. He reiterates that aligning light, food, activity, and sleep may reduce reliance on medications for many people and hints at his desire to formalize these ideas in a book.

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