David Choe on Huberman Lab: Why shame is its own addiction

David Choe 0:00 I'm a severe gambling addict. Every single addiction is gambling addiction. If you drink and drive, you're gambling. Addiction is one of those things you can't apply logic to. People, "What are you running from, Dave?" I'm like, "Well, I'm fucking running from myself, dude. I don't wanna look in the mirror. I don't wanna see myself. I, I hate myself." So I'm just running, so as long as I'm, like, doing graffiti, running from the police, fa- la-la-la-la, you know, just, just, just hopping on a train, like, like, literal running, like literally running to make sure I'm never s- sit still for one second, like, "What are you doing, Dave," "I'm playing drums in a band, I'm fucking, you know, uh, at a casino, I'm traveling doing the noose revise, I'm painting at this..." Like, I, I can't lo- I can't sit still 'cause that means I have to sit with myself and I, I can't do that. I can't do that. (clears throat) I couldn't do that. I couldn't do that. I can now.

Andrew Huberman 0:55 (instrumental music) Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is David Cho. David Cho is an artist. He's a highly accomplished painter, graffiti and street artist, writer, podcaster, and television host. Many of you are perhaps familiar with David as the guy who famously painted the original Facebook offices, took equity for the job, and got rich. Now, that's a wild story, but David's whole life journey, what he did prior to and after that and what he has overcome along the way is a million times wilder. As he shares today, David grew up hearing and thinking that he was destined for greatness, but also hearing and thinking that he was a total disgrace. Today he talks with complete openness and vulnerability about addiction, about cycles of success and failure, and about channeling and overcoming deep shame. Today's podcast is unlike any other that I've hosted. David is wide open about his childhood abuse, his massive success then career setbacks, relapses, and transmuting every possible emotion into art along the way. So no matter who you are, David's story, and just as importantly how he's living right now, how he shows up on this podcast, will change what you think is possible for you in life. It will force you to look inward and to use whatever joy and pain you have inside of you to be the best human being you can possibly be. David Cho is, as we say in science, an n of one, meaning there is no other like him, yes because of his incredible art, but also for his willingness to share so openly and honestly so that others can benefit and grow. I consider it a true honor and privilege to host David on this podcast, and frankly, it's impossible not to love him. This one is incredibly raw and honest. It's also full of surprises, many of which are fun surprises. So buckle up. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with David Cho.

Andrew Huberman 3:10 David Cho-

David Choe 3:11 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 3:12 ... welcome.

David Choe 3:12 Thank you for having me, man.

Andrew Huberman 3:13 Man, huge longtime fan.

David Choe 3:15 Mm.

Andrew Huberman 3:16 Love your art. I've been super inspired by your YouTube channel. I watch it sometimes before I do my drawing or I prepare for a podcast.

David Choe 3:24 What are you drawing?

Andrew Huberman 3:25 Uh, I draw a lot of anatomy on top of some paintings. So I do neuroanatomy on top of some paintings that my friend Tim Armstrong's been doing.

David Choe 3:34 Hmm.

Andrew Huberman 3:34 Uh, musician, lead singer of Rancid.

David Choe 3:36 Is it, is it anatomically correct or is it, like, exaggerated or is it-

Andrew Huberman 3:39 This is a really good question. So in essence, it's anatomically correct-

David Choe 3:45 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 3:45 ... but around the turn of the last century, two guys, Cajal and Golgi, won the Nobel Prize-

David Choe 3:51 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 3:51 ... for drawing the nervous system and showing these things no one had seen before, and they stripped away everything except-

David Choe 3:57 I'm gonna, I'm gonna come paint with you.

Andrew Huberman 3:59 ... the essential piece. So-

David Choe 3:59 I'm gonna come paint with you.

Andrew Huberman 4:00 Yeah.

David Choe 4:01 I don't like what's happening in your painting studio.

Andrew Huberman 4:03 Okay.

David Choe 4:03 I'm f- I'm, just from what you said so far, it's, it's not good.

Andrew Huberman 4:07 Okay. (laughs)

David Choe 4:08 But it's, it's good because you did that and then now-

Andrew Huberman 4:10 Mm-hmm.

David Choe 4:10 ... we have to, we have to strip that away. We have to get at the core of it because painting is, um... Wait, weren't you in the middle of complimenting me? Like, keep going.

Andrew Huberman 4:21 I mean, I-

David Choe 4:22 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 4:23 ... I, I love your YouTube channel. I watch it-

David Choe 4:24 Oh, keep going? (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 4:24 ... before I prepare podcasts and before I, uh, paint or draw, and I'm back to drawing a lot now, and I live, I converted an art gallery into the living space and somehow I thought that that would make me, uh, more inspired, but it turns out, um, it does. (laughs) Um, a lot of things do. But I think the key with anatomy and trying to teach science with drawings is can't be too much detail, can't be too little detail. Otherwise, people are overwhelmed.

David Choe 4:54 It's the best thing for, I think, everyone, but for someone like you who spends a lot of time in your head, I always say the longest journey you'll ever take in your life is from your head to your heart, and to be, uh, an intellectual person, you, you just live a lot, a lot. You, like, you try to rationalize and apply logic to everything. So painting is not that, music is not that, creating is not that. It's just to get to this, and so for, for... But it sounds just in the little that you've explained that your painting is very methodical and which-

Andrew Huberman 5:24 Super meticulous.

David Choe 5:25 Yeah, we're gonna-

Andrew Huberman 5:26 I wanna include every cell type. Yeah.

David Choe 5:28 What's your threshold for positive affirmations? Can I go now? Like, you-

Andrew Huberman 5:32 I mean-

David Choe 5:33 All right.

Andrew Huberman 5:33 ... I, I like to think I have a thick skin, but-

David Choe 5:35 All right. Let's go.

Andrew Huberman 5:36 ... who knows?

David Choe 5:36 No. It's pa- it's all, it's all love. Okay, um, for anyone who's watching or listening, this is my first time meeting Adam, um-

Andrew Huberman 5:44 Andrew. All good.

David Choe 5:47 (laughs) There you, there you go.

Andrew Huberman 5:48 Yeah. All good. All good. You knew my last name, then?

David Choe 5:51 You know what? I was thinking about my friend Adam-

Andrew Huberman 5:53 All good.

David Choe 5:53 ... that you know that I used to skate with, I think. Adam Krone.

Andrew Huberman 5:57 Yeah.

David Choe 5:57 Yeah. That's, I was just thinking like, oh-

Andrew Huberman 5:58 Upper Playground.

David Choe 5:59 Yeah. Upper Playground, so-

Andrew Huberman 6:00 Yeah. He worked, he, his dad owns Krone Shoes-

David Choe 6:03 Yeah.

6:03 ... in Palo Alto where he worked there.

6:05 He wants, he wants to reconnect with you.

6:06 Man, Adam Prono and I grew up together.

6:08 Yeah, yeah, it was just-

6:08 He had a mini ramp in his backyard. We hung out, we skateboarded, and then he started Upper Playground, The Walrus.

6:13 That's, that's, that's it. I-

6:15 He's your homie?

6:15 I used to work for ... I did tons of graphics for Upper Playground, so-

6:19 Wow.

6:19 Does anyone call you Andy?

6:21 Uh, my skateboard friends call me Andy, so yeah.

6:24 But that's it? Like, no one in the medical, like, science world?

6:27 N- uh, not anymore, no, not really.

6:29 That would have like... You, you start your podcast and you do your, you're like, "I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a-"

6:35 I'm Andrew Huberman ..........................yup.

6:36 Like, I'm gonna be all over the place 'cause I'm nervous being here right now. I hardly do podcasts anymore, so, um, I'm, I'm gonna be all over the place if that... It's gonna be mess... it's gonna be sloppy, all right?

6:46 This is your canvas man, have fun.

6:48 Okay. Well, I'm just meeting you. I already called you the wrong name, which is horrible. Um, I hate the black. I hate it, like-

6:57 The studio?

6:58 This ... You with the black T-shirt, the black mugs, the black, like ... I don't like it for you, you know? 'Cause I used to, I used to only wear black because I was like, "Ah, I'm a painter, I'm always dirty. I don't wanna like ..." You know, you could see the ketchup stains on my sweater and it's like, "Okay, that's, that's fine." But I just, um ... Colors are very important in not just painting, but, like, the palette for your house, or, you know, like, um, most people talk about in the modern age, modern man is, you know, and I, and I make shit up so you could correct ... You're like the facts guy, but I, I feel like most people, human beings alive today are gonna die a, a very, uh, it's mean to say boring, but just the same death, right? You'll most likely die lay- laying down in a bed or hospice or in hospital bed. You know, it's just like, no one's dying, like ... I know there's other countries where there's war and famine, but I'm saying modern city, you know, like, there's not, like, a hero's death, right? So it's just ... It's all the same and then you just ... You know, the drive here in traffic, it's like everyone either has a black car or a white car or a gray car, and then you get to their house. And their house is a beige or a white, and you're just like, "We only got one of these." (laughs) You know, whatever your views on the afterlife are, but this is it. (laughs) This is it, like, this is it, and it's just, like, people get mad of like, "Oh, I spilled paint on the floor," like, "I got a scratch..." I'm like, paint everything. Paint your fucking car. Paint and make your ... My, my kids drew my sweater. It's my favorite s..." You know? Like-

8:33 I like that sweater.

8:34 Paint ... You know? So I walk in here and I go, "Fuck, dude." Like, and I'm projecting on you now. Like, when I wore all black it said a lot about where I was at in my life, and I don't know where you're at 'cause I'm just meeting you, but it's like everything is black on black. Like, black on this, black T-shirt, black mug, black ... And it's like ... White T-shirt. For my dream, my, my, uh ... Selfishly, my dream is, like, this podcast would start ... Instead of saying, "Hey, I'm Andrew Huberman," like, Stanford scientist at a ... It's just, "Hi, I'm Andy," and then (laughs) like, you ... (laughs) Can you Photoshop, like, a white T-shirt on? Like-

9:11 I'd wear a white T-shirt.

9:12 I don't know. I don't like bla- uh, f- for me, I, I have hardly ever black clothes anymore.

9:18 Hmm.

9:18 E- I, I want to add as much color because I, I just, uh, maybe that's the season I am in my life or the, uh, the time I'm in, but, um, yeah. I, I appreciate you saying the nice stuff. I, I never thought I would be a YouTuber, but that's providing a lot of joy in my life. And so, I want to say to you, um, I'm meeting you for the first time. I've never seen you clean shaven.

9:43 Mm-hmm.

9:44 But I imagine ... I mean, your beard and facial hair to me look very cute. You're very handsome. Your voice, when I hear your voice, immediately is soothing, and I feel like this is a very kind person. Like, I ... Once again, without having ... Like, now I've met you for, like, five minutes. I'm like, "Oh, this guy's (laughs) super awesome." But, you know, like, these kinda parasocial relationships where ... I could go even ... I don't know how hard you wanna go today, but, like, it, it, it's like I meet people all the time and then I meet them, and it's like, "I've already met you." Like, "We've already talked."

10:21 Mm-hmm.

10:21 I don't know what your views on telepathy and spirituality, and it's like ... It's just everyone will meet ... Everything's gonna happen the way it's gonna happen and everyone's gonna meet who they need to meet. It's, like, all energy, right? You put this, like ... "Why ..." You know, I could sit there and go, "Why does Andrew Huberman want to meet me right now?" And it's like, "Well, what am I putting out in the universe? And what is he putting out in the universe? And are ... do the souls connect in that way," you know? So I just want ... I said if I ever meet him, I just want to tell him how cute he is, how soothing and relaxing and, like ... There's something very, um ... This is the invisible ingredient in, like, everything, in art, w- is did the person care, right? Like, I don't care how skilled and crafted and whatever, like, did the person care? And, like, when you do stuff, in your voice, the tone, the frequency that's hitting my, my soul is like, "Oh, I don't know everything that guy's saying. He's using some big words, but I feel like he cares." And so I, I said if I ever meet you ... And, um, I, I know a little bit from us talking on the phone, but I don't know your whole backstory, but I'm like ... Also, I, I project a lot and I, I make a lot of assumptions, which I'm ... That's a defect that I'm working on. But I just wanted to say, like, even though you had a horrific, traumatic childhood, like, the fact that you're here, you're alive, and that you're doing all this good stuff is, like ... It makes me emotional 'cause I'm like, "I, I don't even know you and I appreciate what you're doing." And, uh, s- you're still a little bit immature, but progress, not perfection, right?

12:02 (laughs)

12:02 So, um-... I think that's it for now, but I just wanted to tell you all that because I, I feel that way about you and I, I... You know, I like, I- I'm a big... Sometimes you feel stuff and you're like, "I'll text it to them," or, or maybe I'll, you know, and I just go, no, if I feel that I just wanna, especially if it's love and positivity. I know I started by telling you how much I hate your décor and your interior decorating, but it's because I like you. Like, I wouldn't, if I didn't, if... I, like, if I'm like, "I don't give a shit about this guy and I don't want a relationship with..." I would never say anything. But I'm like, this... I don't know what the science behind it, but being surrounded by this much black cannot be good.

12:45 (laughs)

12:45 Right? It can't, like, just, you w- we're walking into a black hole right now, like... Just, I don't know. Anyways, that's- that's what I wanted to say.

12:53 Oh, man.

David Choe 12:54 Well, I'll take that in.

12:55 (laughs)

12:55 Thank you. Uh, a lot there, thank you. Um-

12:58 Were you able to take it in?

13:00 Yeah, I was able to take in some of that. I, uh-

13:02 All right.

13:02 ... it's interesting when you call me Andy, it's a- it's a different part of my persona, just 'cause names carry a lot.

13:08 Oh, yeah.

13:08 And thank you for that. Uh, I'm gonna take that in and, um, you know, I- the- I got this little voice in my head that's saying, uh, "Wanna be very clear." You know, my, I had some rough- rough aspects of my childhood and I've made good amends with my parents, so we're good now. I say that to, uh, you know, uh, for all the- the reasons people can assume. But here's the thing, I knew somehow that we'd eventually cross paths, I just didn't know when.

13:33 Mm-hmm.

13:34 Uh, so we say the telepathy thing. For me, I was a post-doc at Stanford. That comes after PhD, you do like five years, it's kind of like a residency. And, uh, and I'm from the South Bay.

13:44 Mm-hmm.

13:45 And I didn't wanna go back to the South Bay because as you know, no disrespect to the South Bay, a lot of interesting things come out of there, but it was pretty devoid of the things that I like.

13:52 Yeah.

13:52 Which normally are in cities, like art, live music. It used to be like that. Grateful Dead were in Palo Alto. I saw Fugazi play at the, at The Edge on California Avenue. Da-da-da-da-da. There was a lot of interesting things about Palo Alto, but it became very, uh, right angles, um, when the tech industry really exploded there. And in 2007 when I was a post-doc-

14:11 Mm-hmm.

14:12 ... was when you were muraling at Facebook.

14:15 (laughs)

14:15 I learned that later.

14:16 Yeah.

14:17 But that was a time when I was back there for my science career, and I was pretty miserable.

14:24 Mm-hmm.

14:24 Being close to home again, honestly, I didn't wanna ever go back there for a while.

14:28 Yeah.

14:28 It was not healing (laughs) . It was-

14:30 Yeah, yeah.

14:30 Uh, but when I learned your story about muraling at Facebook and some of that, I was like, oh, there was at least one other person here who was like in the f- in the kind of, uh, spiritual, emotional fight with what the South Bay is.

14:44 (laughs)

14:45 And then I realized that, I heard an interview with Ian MacKaye from Minor Threat.

14:49 Mm-hmm.

14:50 And turns out he had been in Palo Alto 'cause his dad was an academic or something like that.

14:54 Of course.

14:54 And he had skated some of the same ditches we had, and so there's a history of-

14:58 Mm-hmm.

14:58 ... people being really frustrated with being there, um-

15:02 And really good Vietnamese food.

15:03 And V- is there really?

15:04 Yeah.

15:05 Oh, in Palo Alto?

15:05 Yeah.

15:05 Or the South Bay?

15:06 Yeah, South Bay.

15:06 Oh, yeah, Castro Street, Mountain View. Yeah.

15:08 Yeah.

15:08 And it's changed a lot, but, w- uh, take me back to 2007. I don't know how you feel about historical stuff, but-

15:14 Okay, so we're definitely, I'm definitely down to time travel and time jump-

15:17 Yeah.

15:17 ... and all that, but because my- I'm older, I'm 49 and my attention span is just completely fried, I'm gonna, I'll just say right now I'm gonna get a lot of dates wrong. Like, I'm not, like, two- you know, things, people are like, "Ah," you know? Like-

15:32 2007 was when the Facebook offices were what kids from the South Bay called the- the neck of University Avenue, right before it goes under the train tracks. As soon as you're on the other side of the train tracks-

15:43 Yeah.

15:43 ... Caltrain, it becomes Palm Drive and it's up to Stanford, and-

15:48 Okay.

15:48 ... so those offices now are Palantir-

15:51 Yeah.

15:51 ... which catches a lot of heat for other reasons.

15:54 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

15:54 But those offices, right as you go under the train tracks, for us there was a curb cut right there and there was a board slide thing, and so for the skateboarders it was one thing, but then that was Facebook offices. And years later I heard David Choe-

16:08 Um-

16:08 ... was muraling at Facebook. So how did that come to be?

16:09 I'm gonna, I'm gonna be, uh, like, very sloppy, like I said, and it's maybe some of the stuff, 'cause sometimes, um, it's the way I treat talking and journalism and podcasts is like, it's like a story in my own head. Someone else is like, "Just shut the fuck up and answer the question," right? But like, for me when I paint, I- I don't sketch, I go straight to a finish and I... So sometimes I'm figuring out what I'm trying to tell you, 'cause you asked me a question that's very direct but I- the way it went into my head was very abstract 'cause I'm... So, um, if you let me do a little paint mixing I'll- I- I hope I'll answer your question. But do you, um, do you know Pee-wee, Pee-wee, like, I'm wearing it today, do you know, uh, Pee-wee's Playhouse?

16:54 I knew, oh yeah, I mean, of Pee-wee's, yeah.

16:56 So ha-

16:56 I met him actually, once.

16:57 Paul Reubens?

16:58 Yeah, at a sh- at a photo show of Mike Mueller and Sage, who draws butterflies on Mike Mueller's sharks and animals.

17:05 Oh.

17:05 And Pee-wee Herman, in his-

17:07 Yeah.

17:08 ... thing, in his suit-

17:08 Yeah.

17:08 ... the whole thing, walked up. Laird Hamilton was there.

17:11 Nice.

17:12 And he walks up to Laird Hamilton, there are a bunch of people around, everyone's trying to get to Laird, trying to-

17:15 Yeah, yeah.

17:16 Laird, Laird is like a ... this was 2017. And, uh, I was in West Hollywood and Pee-wee Herman walks up and he goes, "I have to meet you."

17:25 (laughs)

17:25 And Laird's like ... and the best thing is Laird just goes, "Oh, hello, what's your name?" Like typical Laird, like-

17:30 Yeah, yeah.

17:30 ... Laird's a real gentleman.

17:31 Yeah.

17:31 Always, you know? And, uh-

17:33 He didn't know who Pee-wee Herman was?

17:34 And, and, uh, he, I couldn't tell if he knew or not.

17:36 Oh my God.

17:37 And he's like, "I really want to meet you," this kind of thing.

17:39 Yeah.

17:39 And, uh, and I was like, "No way." And he had the whole thing, like the- the shiny lips and the- the thing.

17:43 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

17:43 And I was like, "That's Pee-wee Herman."

17:45 Oh, that's amazing.

17:47 Yeah.

17:47 I love that.

17:47 Yeah.

17:47 All right, well, I mean, I'm definitely gonna have to tell you my Pee-wee Herman story at some point.

David Choe 17:52 I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Eight Sleep. Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating and sleep tracking capacity. One of the best ways to ensure you get a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct.

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David Choe 20:40 For me, art, as a kid growing up, like, the trifecta, my holy trinity of children's education, art, entertainment is Mr. Rogers, Bob Ross, and then, of course, Pee-wee Herman. I mean, Pee-wee Herman had Laurence Fishburne, uh, Gary Panter, Mark Mothersbaugh, like, Danny Elfman. Like, he just, he was, like, the ringleader of all this creativity, and he had, like, "Mecka-licka-hi, mecka-hiney-ho," and-

Andrew Huberman 21:08 (laughs)

David Choe 21:08 Do you remember the, do you remember the secret word?

Andrew Huberman 21:11 Oh.

David Choe 21:11 The secret word was, like, if anyone our age that was watching Pee-wee's Playhouse.

Andrew Huberman 21:15 What was the word?

David Choe 21:15 It was like, "Today's secret word is..." I don't know. What's our secret word today, Rob? Microphone. Microphone. And if it w- if someone says "microphone," scream real loud. So, can we do that today?

Andrew Huberman 21:29 (laughs) Sure.

David Choe 21:29 All right. I'm counting on you. I want you to scream the loudest. Um, and you don't take a pee until we take a pee. We got a agreement on that? Love it. Okay. All right. Um, I hated the South Bay. I ha- I ha- like, I just, I'm, um, I have all the, um, typical art- artist traits. I'm clinically depressed. I'm bipolar. Uh, I have all the process addictions, food, sex, gambling, shopping, workaholism. Like, I don't have, thank God, I don't have any of the chemical addictions 'cause I'm allergic to everything. But, um, severe OCD, severe antisocial traits, um, you know, I, I just, highly sensitive, you know. So I, I just, coming here today, like, you asked me, and I kept text, like, I don't know, we did this, like, dance for a few months. And, uh, I, uh, if I'm just being honest with you, like, (clears throat) I, I don't, I don't know how to not be me, you know? And sometimes, like, I put a mask on, and I, I, I'm like, "I think this is what Andrew wants me to be today," but I, I, you know, I didn't even meet you yet. And so every time I've done Joe Rogan or any other podcast, like, um, I don't know, I just feel comfortable doing my own YouTube or my own podcast. But anytime anyone else asks me, it's such a, I know who I am, and sometimes I don't, and sometimes I figure that out. And it's sometimes you meet people on the street at pavilions or at the supermarket, and they're like, "I..." And it's like this parasocial thing where it's like, "I know you. I relate to you." I, and there's something about that where, you know, the intimacy of meeting another human being and then just showing them your heart and then telling them everything, and my parents aren't gonna listen to this. My brothers don't listen to this. Like, so in a weird way, like, you're gonna know more about me today than my own family. So the parasocial thing is even, it's real, right? Like, placebo effect is real, like all these things. So I, you know, I got here early. I went for a walk down the, to those, that street, and then it's, like, just this beautiful view of the ocean. And I, I, it happens every time. It's like, it, it, it, I know what it makes me sound like. It's like, "Oh, this guy's, like, very unstable and unhinged," and I'm, I'd be the first to admit it. It's like...... I cry all the time now, (laughs) like... 'Cause I don't know what it... It was just, like, maybe just seeing all the burned houses on the way here, just knowing that I haven't talked in a long time, and there's no upside for me. And I told you that. I was like... I go on these podcasts, and I think, um, uh, Howard Stern, like, 15, 20 years ago, and Joe Rogan the multi- multiple times I've been on his show, I think are the only two po- radio shows, podcasts that have ever just aired it without editing. Everyone else... Every time you've ever heard me on any other podcast, it's either severely edited or they cut out huge chunks of it, or they didn't even air it at all. So, I know that, you know, and I know the world we live in today. And so there is something that when, you know, in the, the narcissistic traits where I'm like, "I'm the fucking greatest artist in the world," to like, "Oh my God, I'm a piece of shit." Like, it just... You know, it's just like this thing, and before... When I was younger it was like, "Everyone has to see everything. Everyone has to... Like, I think I'm so important that everyone has to see everything that I create, painting, podcast, book," like, whatever it is. And then it went... Like, my problem with my shit is it's all or nothing, so it's hard for me to find the middle. And so at this point now, I'm like 49. M- I, I live a very quiet dad life. You know, I'm a family guy. And there's just thousands of paintings no one's ever seen. There's hundreds of hours, if not thousands of hours, of podcasts I've never put out. There's books I've written, there's TV shows, movies that I've made that... It's just... I don't... Before the ego and the narc- it's like, "You need to put this out because you're important and everyone needs to see how important you are." And now, the flip side to that i- and maybe, maybe it's not healthy either, is like, I know who I am, I'm comfortable with myself, and I don't, I don't need... You know, I'm artificially blocked from everything. Like I, I'm, I don't have my own password to my social media. I don't... I have blocks on my phone so I can't access the internet. So it's like, I do put all these things into place to like protect myself because I'm a sensitive person. So, um, you know, as a artist, there's certain isms and, and stories. It's like, "Oh, starving artist, you're not gonna make any money." Like, "Struggling artist." There's these stories that people say and then you buy into them. Um, but I had, um, I had a few teachers along the way that, um, influenced me that like... You know, there's... Like, just certain moments happen in your life that live in your, your head rent-free and, uh, I have a lot of those. And so one of the stories is, you know, I'm 49. It's like, "You have to live in New York City. If you make it in New York, you make it anywhere." What the fuck am I doing in the 408? Like this is... What am I doing in Cupertino? Like, like in my head the story's written that you're a fucking... You know, and I hadn't done shit, right? But in my head I'm like, "You're a greatest artist ever" in Gilroy. You know like... what... you know what I mean? (laughs) Sorry, no disrespect to Gilroy. It's like the garlic capital of... Garlic Fest, garlic ice cream, you know? Yeah. So, there's a story in my head that it's like I gotta get to New York City, right? Like I gotta, like... I couldn't, I couldn't get any like leeway in Los Angeles. I'm born and raised in LA and I just, I couldn't, you know... And um, and so I, I, I... And now I look back. And if I do a inventory of the most creative explosions and the most periods of creativity in my life, it's always found in the mundane. It's always found in cold temperatures. It's always found when there's no wifi. It's always fou- found in a suburb of... It's, it's like this story like, "I'm gonna get to fucking New York and I'm gonna be part of this movement." It's never that. Like, it's nice to romanticize that but it's... These moments of brilliance, like someone, whoever's listening right now, they're like, "I got this." And then I'm... there's like a, "And then I'm gonna get to this and then I'm gonna meet this person and I'm gonna do..." And it's like, "Bro, I was fucking living in San Jose for seven years." I met this wonderful lady. She was my girlfriend for seven years. But like at that prime. I was 23 and I was like... And um...

David Choe 28:46 For me the stakes are so high because I... So one of the teachers was my mother, right? My mother is hardcore born again Christian. So science does not enter the picture, right? It's like blinders on, and through her I learned blind faith, right? Jesus Christ, that's it. There's no, there's no... "So wait, you're telling me there was a actual ark with two animals and all the... The two animals didn't kill the other, and like, you know, and there was a Adam and there was a snake that talked?" It's like, "Yeah." Like, no hesitation. So she gave me that gift of like, like, "Hey science, like facts... No." Blind... Like just, "Holy shit." Like there, there's... Nothing could falter and you're like, "You're fucking stupid. You're ignorant." Like and she's... But she's not, she's a bright woman and now I look back and, like I just met you, you, you're a brilliant guy and I, and I sit here and I go, "I know some of the smartest people on the planet." You know some of the smartest people on the planet, and they're all dumb. They're all like idiots. You're like, "Wait, you're a genius, you have photographic memory, you created this company, da da da da, and you've made some of the dumbest decisions I've ever se-..." (laughs) You know it's like, it's like, "Yeah, you're really good at this but you don't know relationships or you don't know..." So, so my mom taught me through just not anything but just watching her of just this absolute belief. And sh- and one of her beliefs was...... you're my son. You know, this is some Jesus shit, like me, who was like how I explained, this is fucking neurotic mess, like, growing up in an unstable family and all that, got fucking molested, phys- e- every abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse, like, just chaotic 'cause they were working, and then I was just, like, left out in the wild, abandoned, spiritual abuse, all this shit. And she's just like, "In the same way she believed in God and Jesus," she's like, "You're the one. You're the greatest artist that..." And I'm like five years old. I'm like, "What the fuck are you talking about?" She's like, "No one's better than you. No one's better than you. You're the be- you're gonna be the great," you know, "Your name's David." Like a lot of Koreans named after Bi- she's like, "I named you after King David. You're gonna be a king." And I go, but n- now in hindsight, I'm like, and, yes, King David beat Goliath, but he also was a sex addict and had a lot of mental illness (laughs) and, like, failed a lot, you know? She didn't tell me all that shit, you know? Um, so she's, she's raising me, she's brainwashing me. It's like, "You're the best. You're the greatest." And then you, you know, I've met other artists where it's like, everyone had this, has their own paths. Some become great because the parents are like, "You're nothing. You're a piece of shit. You're the worst," uh, you know? "Who the fuck do you think you are?" I had the opposite. I had a mom just, it didn't matter. It didn't matter if like, "But Mom, look at how horrible..." She's like, "You're the greatest." And so it's like at some point, I h- I hate myself. I have like a so l- such a low self-opinion of myself, um, I'm just down on myself, just this kid just constantly getting bullied and, like, the world just using me, and, (sighs) um, and I, (sighs) and I'm like, "Of course she says that, she's my mom," you know? Like, but she just brainwashed me into believing that I'm the best. And h- I would, as a, as a trickster and a shapeshifter, I would, uh, you know, what most artists lack is, like, an ability to communicate with words. That's why they're such brilliant artists and that's why they, they can make great music and all this because they can't... I can't, you know? Like, I'm gonna probably talk to you for a h- few hours today and I'm gonna leave here feeling (laughs) misunderstood. I'm gonna be like, "Fuck, did I..." Because I'm not... In the same way I can, like, translate what I feel in a painting, it's very h- like, it's like when people describe, like, ayahuasca or something, they're, like, trying to describe and they're like, the words that you're trying to look for don't exist for what you just went through. So that's kind of the, why I, why I get really self-judgmental, but, um, like this woman, and then, you know, my dad, he loves me, but he's like, "He's all right. (laughs) He's okay," you know? And I'd watch my mom who was just like a brutal businesswoman, you know? And, um, she would transform, you know? We, she, we, we, we'd, we, you know, I, I spent most of my life either poor or middle class, you know? Like, being wealthy came later. But, so, you know, we were on welfare a lot, our businesses burned down in LA riots. Like, I saw my parents struggle a lot, you know? But then they would do good. And they had the gambler's mentality, which a lot of Asians do, and I, I have that too. Which is? Just, I don't

David Choe 33:27 know if this is true, but I heard that, uh, Asians have the gambling gene more than other races, especially the women. Like, most women don't have the gambling gene the same way men do. Mm-hmm. So my mom would gamble, like, flipping houses or, like, not in a casino, but, like, just huge, like, huge swings, which you're like... I, I grew up in, with a, a fearless woman, you know? Mm-hmm. But, so we wouldn't have stuff, but then I would watch my mom open the trunk of her car and put on, like, fake jewelries, cubic zirconium 'cause she's about to go into a meeting and ask for a lot of money, and just, just insane lying and, but hardcore Christian, so, like, the hypocrisy there. Like, I'm definitely, I'm trying to work on my own, breaking out, so it's like, I'm gonna be hypocritical in this interview and at the end, hopefully I'll be able to correct any exaggerations or lies, but that's a new tool that I have. I used to just, you know, whatever for the story, you know? I like to tell the truth, you know, all those things. Um, so I'd watch my mom transform from, like, a poor woman. The mentality was she's like, "My, I'm, my son is the greatest artist in the world," and, like, I'm, you know, I'm coming out of my Toyota hatchback (laughs) with the broken window, you know? But I, when I go to this meeting right now, you're not gonna see that. So she'd transform herself into this rich, powerful woman and then just, like, get, like, I'm, I'm just sitting there, a kid in the corner watching this woman get what she wants on, like, "Holy fuck, what the fuck was that performance?" And then just coming out and I'm like, "But Mom, that's not, like, those things you said, that wasn't real. That's not true." And she's like, "Yeah, they don't need to know that." And I'm like, "But we just went to church and we learned the Ten Commandments and you're not supposed to lie." And this is, like, all this, like, confusion. And then I meet, uh, Sean Parker, who, uh, you know, just the sweetest kid, you know? Just, (clears throat) he started emailing me right when he started Napster. And he goes, I wish... I have all the emails. I keep, I keep certain emails and voice messages and I just, I just, that's my own nostalgia, but, like, I have a, I have a voicemail and a handwritten letter from Howard Stern saying, "Thank you for getting me into watercolors." And I was like, "Dude, my fucking hero," like, "Yes," like, it's such a good feeling. Um, I have a voice message from Peewee Herman, which I'll share later, and all my early emails with Sean Parker I kept just 'cause it was, he's such a interesting, like, wonderful... Yeah, I know, like, the image of him, but, like, I, I, we don't talk, uh, like, as, like we used to, but I still consider him a friend and I'm o- forever grateful to him. But, so, he, I met him at a time when, like-I mean, I don't even know how to des- I mean, like, just complete disgrace and shame to my family. You know? It's like the immigrant story. Talk to a- any immigrant. "Why the fuck did you leave your home to come to another country?" Because it was shitty there, that's it. You're not born in a country and you're like, "Dude, let's leave," right? The only reason why anyone's here is 'cause it was shitty where you were at, right? So, then they all... It doesn't matter if you're Asian or Mexican, whatever, you came here for a better life, and what does that mean? Work your ass off. So, we are, we're in a nation of workaholics, right? This is an entire country of workaholics. So, my parents, you know, I didn't go through it, but they're, like, Japanese tanks rolled down the street and, you know, they have the typical, like, fucking war, famine, all that stuff, so... They get over here and, like, born and raised in Los Angeles, you know? It's like, don't know who I am, don't know where I belong, just bullied, abandoned, abused over and over, and just... I didn't even really know the concept of suicide, but I hated myself. Like, I, I couldn't live in my... Like, it felt like I was burning inside my own body. And so, um, even made fun of, like, like, I listened to, we l- we have the same taste in music, I listened to Minutemen, Minor Threat, you know, I'm blasting (sighs) uh, Downset, Inside Out, Soundgarden, Slaves and Bull- I used to put on Soundgarden, Slaves and Bulldozers, punch myself as h- like, just, like, I'm in my room, a teenager, just punching myself as hard as I can just to, like, go into, like, a berserker rage. Um, and I, and I just, back then the, like, I found pornography and it was just so soothing, like, it was like getting high. Like, I would just masturbate, like, over and over again. So, I'm, I'm, like, master-... But I would, I would do, like, weird self-harm, I, I guess the kids call it edging, but I could, I'd masturbate but then not come, and then beat myself up, and I'm going through puberty, and I would go out and I'd shoplift, uh, spray cans, like, just at, you know, hardware stores. And I'm listening to, uh, you know, I'm, I would get, like, uh, Faith No More, like, In Living Color, just, like, so- some song and I would just, like, on OCD, just repeat, like, some lyric in it. << I am a patient boy >> And I would just, like, go into, like, a trance and I would just go out and I would just fucking spray paint. And I'm living at home, so I'm not hiding this shit. I come home, my hands covered in black paint. "Thi- this is what we fucking came to this country for? This is what, why we, we fucking left another country, so you could come here and not be an art, but do graff- like, m- you're a disgrace. You're a disgrace to our race, you're a d-" you know? And my dad would just, like, fucking throw me against the wall and I'm like, "I, I don't care, dude. I don't care what you're"... Like, do you understand? Like, I wasn't, like, actively trying to kill myself, but I didn't... Like, do you understand that everything you care about, I don't care? Do you get that?" And like, you know, you start the show and I, I wa- I was laughing 'cause it's like, "Hey, I, I'm Andrew Humer- Huberman, scientist, Stanford," this, and I'm like, "I don't care." Like, I, I like, I like Andy. Like, I like that, you know? And then I was like, "You know what? This is like, uh, Stolen Valor." Um, Sean Parker's starting Facebook with Mark Zuckerberg, you know, I'm there at the beginning, and, uh, so he brings me in and at the time,

David Choe 40:10 when I first... This is years, the emails back and forth. He's like, "I need..." 'Cause the energy I was putting out at the time was what I'm telling you right now. Just, I don't give a fuck. I don't care what you care about. Like, I don't, like... It's just complete... I don't care if I go to jail, I don't c-... Like, I'm just painting on everything. And it's like, graffiti? Graffiti is vandal-... It's not a art, it's not graffiti artist or street art, it's fucking vandalism. It's a crime. And people are telling me, anyone out there doing street art, like, there's so many rules. There's so many f-... Like, what did you write? Did you used to tag? Or anything?

40:47 No, but I had a good friend from-

40:48 Shut up.

40:48 ... uh-

40:49 If you skated, you definitely had, like, a...

40:51 There were some kids in our crew that-

40:52 Cubes?

40:53 (laughs) No. No.

40:54 What did you tag? Come on.

40:55 No, 'cause I had friends who were, like, graffers and they were ser-... They, like, boxed us out, you know?

41:00 Oh.

41:00 The Under Shadows kids, they would-

41:01 You never did graffiti?

41:02 No, but we can talk about this later. I wanna hear, I wanna hear from you now.

41:05 Okay.

41:05 But later we should talk about Orphan and the Under Shadows crew, which is a, which is a kind of a thing in the Bay Area.

41:11 Yeah, yeah.

41:12 Um-

41:12 I heard of them.

41:13 Yeah, he was a good friend of mine. But anyway, I didn't graffiti.

41:16 Okay. So I-

41:16 But I, I gr- I drew on my grip tape. (laughs)

41:18 (laughs) All right, that's-

41:19 You know?

41:19 ... that's good.

41:20 But, no, I wasn't a tagger, wasn't a graffiti guy.

41:22 Yeah, so I'm out doing, like, that and, you know, like... (sighs) You know, we could have, like, a conversation about creativity and this and that and it's like, I can't... It's, it's very hard to talk about cre-... It's 'cause it's like, can you teach a craft? Can you teach a skill? Can I teach you to paint the Mona Lisa? Yeah. I know how to do all that. I know how to, like... I went to school, like, I taught myself, I watched videos. Like, you could teach yourself how to paint something to make it look like something. That's a s- teachable skill. But creativity, where does that come from? Are you just born with it? Is it from deprivation? Is, is it... It's like, it's like a, you know, I could, I can only share what my path, my, my path is, and it's like, the embarrassment, for, like... You're Asian, you need to get a 4.0, you need to get into UCLA, you need to be a doctor or lawyer. And it's like, me, my ch-... I'm on the middle child. Me and my two brothers, like, long hair, listening to heavy metal and punk.... "Why you doing that Wite shit?" You know, like, and then he's got Asian kids that are into h- h- heavy... You know, it was like, there was no identity, right? And then... It's just, like, lost, just like, what the fuck is... You know, like, we don't belong anywhere just con- like, the Asian depictions, uh, in media is like long duck dong, Asians have small dicks. They can't drive. They're good at ma-... It's just nothing's good, right? And I'm like, I, you know, I'm just trying to figure out my way in this world. And I, and I remember, um, Sean just was attracted to, like, whatev- whatever little art I'd start getting some... Noticed in Juxtapoz, and I was starting to do graffiti everywhere, and, and, uh, he's like, "I, I want that. Whatever that is, I want that. Like, I wanna be part of that." And I said... And I, I forgot what my painting... It was, it was, like, right when I couldn't sell a painting, and then all of a sudden they were selling for a couple thousand, and he's like... And he was a teenager still, and he goes, "My, my... Uh, I, I want your art, but the problem is, I'm being (laughs) sued right now for a trillion dollars because every single song is a, is a lawsuit." You know, I mean, whatever, he... It ended up the way it ended up, but I remember he goes, "I'm getting..." He showed me a screenshot or whatever. He's like, "I'm being sued for $1 trillion right now, so I can't really afford your art, but, like, I'm gonna get it." You know? So we, we started this relationship, and he would send me these crazy, like, abstract texts of, emails of what he wanted me to paint, and then, and then, uh, he started another co- company called Plaxo, and he's like, uh, uh, "No, no one..." And then finally you're catching me in the South Bay. You know, I had met this girl. We fell in love, and I moved to San Jose, just the most culturally dead place, and everyone's like, rollerblading, working at Apple or MySpace or eBay or, you know, some, some tech startup, and they're like, "We're cool because we have a trampoline and a... You know, we have a, like, a kitchen area where you can have all the Red Bull and snacks you want, and we have bunk beds, so we..." And like, "That's all so you can just keep working," you know? And so I meet Sean and he's like, "Dude, we're starting this company called Facebook, and, like, we finally have some money," and like, "Dude, this is..." And he's like, "Where are you at?" And he didn't know all this, but I had just gotten out of prison. I was in jail in Japan because I had beaten up, uh, a undercover security guard. I was 27 when I got out, and I owed everyone money. I owed my girlfriend money. I owed... And so I needed money bad, and, um, I was in, like, a lot of trouble. I, like, was... I didn't know how h- how I was gonna pay everyone back 'cause it's really hard to sell a painting, you know? But my paintings did sell once in a while, and they were starting to get pretty expensive. And then, uh, all the art that I did in jail, um, I used to work for Vice Magazine. I say worked 'cause... But I never got paid, but, you know, I'd, I'd-

45:23 They didn't pay you?

45:24 No, I, I, I think people... If anyone's listening, this is a little side tangent, is... Um, and it's gonna definitely sound like OCD, like I'm keeping a list, and maybe I am because it... I don't think about it, but I, I was sitting the other day and I go, "They all owe me money, everyone I've ever worked for." Like, ev- like, people like, "I gotta get pai-" Like, someone develops a skill, like, I'm good at songwriting or, or this or that and, and then they go, "Well I gotta get..." Like, the young peoples, man, like, "Well, that's my craft, I gotta get paid." I go, "I never got paid." I worked for Nike, Levi's, Ruka, Giant Robot, Vice, fucking even my friend Steve Aoki, and, like, just all every... Like, 88rising, uh, if I sit here I, I'll name everyone. But, like, either they didn't pay me my... What they said, or I had to threaten to kill them for them to send me, or, or they just never paid me. You know, and I met Gavin McInnes when he started Vice, and he had seen some of the art that I did in Giant Robot. He saw that I went to the Congo. He saw, like... And he's like, "Hey." And it was all punk rock. Vice, when it was, like, the big format, and he's like, "Dude." And I... He just believed in me. I don't know what he saw. He's like, "Dude, send me a, uh, um, a drawing of cops beating up this," and then, and I, and I did it fast. I did it... He's like, "I need it by tomorrow." And I was like, "I can do it." And then he's like... He just was like, "Hey, uh, write me a story about some shooting in LA Koreatown gangster shit." And I go, "But I'm not (laughs) ..." He's like, "Just, just do it." And at one point, that was another figure that was... Resonated in my mom of like, the rules don't... Reality doesn't apply. I'm sitting there going, "Wait, but I'm not a journalist. I didn't fact checked anything," and there was some issues of Vice where I wrote five different articles under a woman's name, a Black guy's name, you know, like, just made up names, articles just to fill up pages, and I would have done the comic section, illustrations, music review, uh, street, you know, fashion, and, you know, the do's and don'ts. And I'm just like, "You can do that?" And like, I, I had already been groomed for that 'cause of my mom. It's like, "Nope. Ru- reality doesn't apply. You just..." My mom thinks I'm the best artist, and now here's... You know. So Sean's like, "Okay." And, and so I'm, I'm in what I feel is like purgatory, the 408 San Jose Milpitas, you know? (laughs) I'm just like, "What the fuck is this?" Like, and I'm s- telling myse- "I gotta get to... When I get to New York..." It's like this Golden Gate, like, g- end of the Golden Road, like Wizard of Oz. Like, "When I get there, then something's... I'm gonna get discovered, and then someone's gonna be like..." And, and, um... 'Cause what is it? You know, like, what... Like, people are like, "What is cr-" And I go... I am a... Like, I can be a hater. I can be a loving, sweet, selfless person. I could be like a very...... hard, judgmental hater to myself. And, and so I take this so seriously. Like, what we're doing here today is talking, I mean, it's mostly me talking, I could see that. But, uh, it's like, we're having a conversation, but I think without sounding... It's like, I, I think it's important. That's why I'm here. Like, I, like I said, like, I'm like, "Why?" (laughs) I, I feel like I trust you even though I just met you, but like, yeah, I fucking puked down the street because I get... I go, "What's the upside?" Like, I'm gonna talk and then maybe I say something that I didn't mean, or I say it the wrong way, or it gets clipped weird or edited and then I go, and I go, "I think it's important. I, I wanna come. I wanna talk to you." And I, and that's how I feel about my art. So, what is that? What is art? What is creativity? And it, and for me, it's like... I think sports are very gay, especially skateboarding. Like, I, if I never played sports, I would've never seen another man's penis. You know? Like, and then in my time in sports, it was very rough because I wasn't... I tell, I told myself... Any athlete that I paint with, they always start saying the same thing. "I suck at drawing." And I go, "Why did you do that? Why did you immediately shoot yourself in... Like, who, who said that? Did someone else say that or did you say that?" They go, they, they start with saying something negative. And I go, and then, and then I go, "That's exactly what I say if they try to teach me how to throw a free throw." I go, "Ugh, this is gonna suck." And they go, "Why did you do that?" And so for me, growing up, I grew up with... in a lot of Black neighborhoods where the second... You know, I don't know how to play basketball, but the second I try and I fuck up, it's like, "Look at the Chinese kid fucking try..." You know? So I go, "All right, you know what? I'm not even gonna try it." You know? And it's like, "Well, you should've just come at like 5:00 in the morning (laughs) when no one was there." You know? But like, I was so sensitive. I was like, "I don't wanna..." So I did things in the pr-... You know, it, it's... Art is a solitary sport for the most part. You know? I'm not... There's no Rob there. There's, it's just me. Like, like even in the thing, it's like this. Like, don't look in my sketchbook. And, but in here I can fuck up and fix, erase, whatever. But, so like in sports, you know, it's like, you're slapping guys' asses, you're taking showers with them. You're, uh, you're doing all this, uh, uh, like, male bonding stuff. You're just spending a lot of time with other men, right? Like, uh, uh, and I'm like, "Oh, God." Like, what is the feeling? I'm trying to isolate the feeling. What am... Like, what? And I remember, 'cause I, I don't... Like, I tell this stuff not to be like, feel sorry for me or I'm a victim. I don't feel like that. I mean, this, I'm just telling you-

Andrew Huberman 51:03 You don't sound like a victim.

David Choe 51:04 ... I'm like telling you, I'm telling you what happened.

Andrew Huberman 51:05 Yeah.

David Choe 51:05 And part of it is, you do like a... What, what would you rather? Would you rather someone beat you up for five minutes or have the whole world read your diary? You know, like these kind of... And I, and luckily I had both happen. You know, I've been beaten to an inch of my life. I've had, like, I've had bro- broken bones. I've been stabbed. I've been burned. I've been like, everything physically you can think of. And, and I'm still here, right? So there's not much. Like, I, I in-... Like, because I have my mom's delusion, like when I talk to Joe, and he's shorter than me, but I, I, I know he could probably... Like, logically I know he could probably kick my ass. I have no fighting background. But in my head I'm like, "I'm pretty sure I could kick his ass." And he would fucking... And, and I... That's just the way I walk through life. Like, like I still believe in Santa Claus. People go... I can't believe I just said that. (laughs) I don't... (laughs) I think that's the first (laughs) time publicly I've ever said that.

Andrew Huberman 52:03 We're coming up on, uh, you know-

David Choe 52:05 No, I know.

Andrew Huberman 52:05 ... Christmas.

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David Choe 53:30 I just remember there's... I don't know, it's changed now, but I, I remember when I was a kid, it was around six or seven when they start going, "There's no fucking Santa." But I was eight, and I was like... And they're like, "How dumb are you?" And I, I understand this reflects back to my mom and Jesus. I go... And they go, "But you've literally never got any presents from Santa. How..." And, and then I'd go to shame. I'd go, "'Cause I'm a bad kid." I cussed. I was like, "I stole stuff from the supermarket." You know? Like, and, um, they're like, "Hey fuck face, Santa's not real." And I just was like, "But he is. I believe that he is." And, and I, I believe... I go, there's, there's... Him not giving me a present is h-... like, 'cause I put him in this God category. Maybe he's not God, but maybe he's a, a god, like a demigod or something. And they go, "How is he... How does he know if you're naughty or nice?"I go, "Telepath." "How does he, how does he get every fucking present to every kid in that time?" I'm like, "Oh, he's, he's a mutant. He can multiply. He can make copies of himself." "How does he get through that tiny chimney?" I go, "Teleport." Like, I just, it's not even a question, I just know, I, I believe it. And I don't care how stupid you thi- like, I guess this is me coming out with my Santa Claus, but it's just, like, I just believe that. And you can't say anything to make me not believe that. That's my blind faith that I got from my mom, so, like, every Christmas, I'm fif- I'm almost 50, I'm a fucking middle-aged man that, and I go, "Maybe, (laughs) maybe this is the year I'm gonna..." But now I look back and I go, the gift he gave me of giving me nothing gave me everything. Right? So, I, I'm, I'm sitting there and I, I, I'm drawing, but I have that story in my head too. Like, "I suck. Oh, fuck, that doesn't look like Batman. Oh, his arm looks weird." You know? And then at some point, to this day, all the physical and emotional pain, uh, uh, sorry, just the physical pain, like, it passes. I've broken bones, I've, I've, I've had my face just pummeled. I've, like, just, where you wouldn't recog- disfigured. And, but it passes, and I, and if I think back, I don't remember it. But the pain that stays is, like, heartbreak. You know, betrayal, abandonment. And I just remember, my dad would make us keep a journal, um, 'cause he just wanted us to start learning how to write. And it, it, uh, uh, it star- it started with, "If I take you guys to the movies, you have to write a movie review." And it was like, we were eight years old, seven years old, just, you know, "Today we saw Karate Kid. Johnny got chased by skeletons. The end." You know? It was like that, uh, like a little kid, you know? But he's like, "You have to do it." Goonies was cool, you know, so we kept the thing. But then he never asked to read it. He just wanted us to do it. And I was like, "Oh." So then I, I started, like, getting more brave. I was like, "I, I really like this girl at school." And, like, and I would just start getting really vulnerable and open and just knowing, because my brothers don't give a shit, like, but then I, uh, the thought of, like, "What if someone ever read this?" So I was, like, opening myself up and just letting, and I was like, "Oh my god." Like, it felt so good. Like, like, I can't tell anyone, like, I'm having these kind of feelings or, like, you know, like, I fucking hate Dad (laughs) , you know? Like someth- you know, whatever. And I, uh, I would take the bottom drawer out of my desk out and I would hide it under there, and I shared a room with my brother so I always did it when he, you know, I thought I was being secretive. And I was somewhere between seven, eight, nine, I, uh, just, you know, as you get better at writing, and I, I got more, once I got more comfortable knowing that no one, I just started writing everything. Like, my brother's fucking fart smell, like, I wish, you know, just, like, everything I would write, just, just completely (sighs) and I came one day and I saw both my brothers on the bed reading it, and it, I remember my face just, like, it felt so hot. Like, like, I felt like someone had just, like, ultimate betrayal, and it, and it was like being naked. That's why I bring up the, like, I felt more naked than being in a room full of naked guys showering, like, slapping... Like, it was the most vulnerable, like, they were being so merciless, "Ha ha, you like her, and you did that, I can't believe you've..." You know? 'Cause I wrote everything in that journal, and I, I thought I, I was gonna die from shame and embarrassment. And they were, you know, like, the way kids are, brothers can be, it was merciless. And they made fun of me for years for that. And in the same way my face was disfigured and I've had physical abuse and all that, I lived through it. And I was like, "I'm still here." And so why the fuck am I gonna be a pussy when I draw? When I draw, no more like, "I'm gonna draw Batman like this artist or that artist." Oh, I'm gonna draw, like, c- you know? Like, okay, that's fine, you're, like, trying to figure out who, how to m- work with tools and, but, and that's fine. Skill, craft, great. But, like, this? Like, showing you, like, so there's n- I had been trained now for heartbreak. Right? Like, a lot of artists spend their whole life being not validated, bullied, rejected, and then finally they figure out how to draw something where people are like, "Yes, we like that." And so they never grow. They do that same verse, that same flow forever, and then you got people like Andre 3000 they're like, "I don't care, I'm gonna, I don't care what, you know, I'm gonna do flute shit." It's like, "Well, we don't like that." And it's like, "I, I don't care. I'm an artist. I'm gonna..." You got someone like Flea who's like, "I'm gonna just do performance art." And I'm like, "I don't even like half that shit but I just love them 'cause they're..." And I go, "How fucking brave is that? How brave is that?" But I remember just to this day, right, I am a very successful, established artist, and yet today there's people who are like, "That's the fucking worst art I've ever seen. That's the, that's..." And I, and I, and I go, "Cool." Like, uh, but, but if you don't have that background of just having your heart ripped out, it is the most painful thing to put yourself out on a c- like, to pour your... That's you. That's your soul. And someone's like, and then especially if you're trying to sell it, you're like, "No, thanks." You know? Um,

David Choe 1:00:16 so to have a guy like Sean Parker, who's younger than me, but just not even the art, he's just like, "I like you, like, whatever that is," and then I wanna change the world with this kid that I met, Mark Zuckerberg, and so I meet him with his flip-flops and then, you know, I meet the whole crew, and...I, and I go, "What do you want me to do?" And he's like, "I want you to fucking paint everything. I want people to be scared. I want investors to be scared when... I want everyone to just be like, 'We're not Myspace, we're not eBay, we're not...' I want them to be horrified when they come in here. I want you to just fucking paint the microwave, like everything." And I go, "Indoors, right?" And he goes, "Yeah." And I go, "All right. So just, like, cover up your computers and then..." And they're like, "No. We're gonna, we're gonna be working here." And I'm like, "Y- you know how toxic these chemical... Like, I work in spray paint, like, I have brain damage because of this shit. Like, I have, like, memory issues." They're like, "We don't care." You know, they were, like, young. They were like, "Fuck the world, hack the world." Like, all that shit.

1:01:16 (laughs) Hack the world.

1:01:17 They loved saying... You know.

1:01:19 (laughs) Oh, yes.

1:01:20 So I was there and they would be like, "Let's fucking blast Daft Punk." Like, I, I don't... This is a world I'm not f- you know, I like going into different worlds. And they're like, "We're gonna blast Daft Punk," because I guess it's, like, something with the repetitiveness and the coding. And we're gonna do these hackathons where we just fucking hack into shit and fucking... It was punk rock. It was, like, a very nerdy punk rock, but they were like, "We don't give a fuck."

1:01:42 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

1:01:43 Like, and I, I, I like that spirit.

1:01:44 Mm-hmm.

1:01:44 But they were such nerds. And they were so earnest. They, they, there was a... You've never heard people talk like that, where they're talking about like, "And we're gonna change the world." And I'm like, "I'm into that, whatever that is." And they thought they were so cool when they thought they were giving me a Stanford email. I go, I, I... 'Cause I'm not on social media. Like, I never... I'm a Luddite. I don't... I'm the last to... Whatever new technology, I'm like, "All right." Like, I've never touched AI, any of that. And, and so I was like, "You guys are trying to be like Myspace?" But MySpace is, it's already here. Like, for the young people listening, like, there was no Facebook, there was no Instagram. It was Myspace. It was just, dominated. And they're like, "Yeah, but we're, we're fucking Myspace for Ivy League, you know, Harvard-"

1:02:33 Oh, that's right. In 2007, that's right, because I was a post-doc.

1:02:36 That's how it started.

1:02:37 In order to get Facebook, you had to have-

1:02:38 It was-

1:02:39 ... an Ivy League or a Stanford email.

1:02:41 Yeah.

1:02:41 Because technically, Stanford's not in the Ivy League.

1:02:43 So you're not the on- so you're not the only one, motherfucker. Stolen valor.

1:02:45 (laughs)

1:02:46 So.

1:02:47 I love it.

1:02:47 So I forgot what it was. It was like choi@stanford.edu. And, but, like, I remember he gave it to-

1:02:52 It probably still exists.

1:02:54 I don't know. He's, he... I remember him giving it to me like it's something I wanted. I was just painting and he's like, "Dave, you don't have to go. I'll get you a Stanford email and then you can be part of Facebook." I'm like, "I don't wanna be. I don't, I don't care. I don't care what you..." Like, "You wanna be, you and Mark and all these guys want to be in this, like..." And they're like... He was, like, confused, 'cause he's like, "You don't want the... Whatever, like, respect and whatever comes with having a Stanford..." And I go, "No, I hate education. I hate learning. I hate teachers. I hate... Like, what the fuck are you talking about?" And he, he was like... I go, "Why don't you just make it for everybody?" And he's like, "Oh." Like, you know, I... The thing is, like, it was so funny when the David Fincher movie came out, because it's just an awesome movie but it's just... I was there for all of it and just did not... Like, some of the facts are right but it, it just didn't go down that way, you know? But... So, so Mark is, like, a genius. And, and Sean, I mean, similar to my mother. It's like... I think Naomi's still there. It was like, Naomi, Mark, Sean, Dustin and me just, like, gassing them up. (hisses) They're just trying to code, like, and I'm, like, listening to all their conversations and I'm, like, telling them how nerdy they are. I'm like, "Bro, make it for everybody. Don't..." You know? Like, and they're like... And I would listen in on all their conversations. They're like, "That's so fucking cool, Dave. Joe's painting our office." And I was like, "Oh, they like me." You know? Like, "I'm being validated, not just by my mother." You know? Um, and so, you know, I do everything backwards and we start to discuss payment, you know. And at that time, I had once in my life sold a painting for, like, 10 grand. And it was, like, a fluke. And that's another story that I could tell about rejection and all that. But, um, so I just, I just did some dumb, ignorant math. I was like, "Well, that painting was this big." And I was like, "$60 grand," you know. And I needed that. I needed that to pay off everyone. And then, at the time, up until going to jail, like, I had been a thief. I was doing a lot of stealing to support my... (laughs) Like, I was like, "I'm... Graffiti doesn't pay the bills," you know?

1:05:17 Stealing your paint?

1:05:19 Stealing everything.

1:05:19 Was Facebook office painted with stolen cans?

1:05:22 Probably.

1:05:23 Yeah.

1:05:23 Probably. Um, yes. Yes. (laughs)

1:05:26 Yeah.

1:05:28 Um...

1:05:29 My, my graf friends. Graf, graffiti for those ............................ They were like world-class crooks.

1:05:35 Yeah, yeah. Of course.

1:05:35 'Cause they were always stealing pens and paint, and you know-

1:05:37 Exactly.

1:05:38 I mean, you know.

1:05:38 It's, like, how... Like, it doesn't pay the bills, you know?

1:05:41 Yeah.

1:05:42 So, uh, what had transferred, uh, you know, you know the nature of addiction is if you don't get to the root of it, it just keeps jumping, right? Like, uh, Whac-A-Mole. So it Whac-A-Moled, um, into my, my background, which is watching my parents take huge... So I got into gambling. So I was just gam-... Like, there was... Every paycheck, anything, it was always... I gotta figure out a way... 'Cause gambling feels like stealing. And it's... You know? And I sat there and I... And people were just like, "You work at Facebook? Like, that's..." You know, my friends that aren't in that academia, they're just like, "That's like the, the, the shitty Myspace." You know? Like, "Look at the font, look at the... You know, all the artsy criti-... Like, look at the designs. It's a fucking..." You know? "What is that? The name? Facebook? Come on. Like, that's the most creative..." You know?... and I said, "I think, uh, I'm gonna ask them if I could get shares in the company," you know? Um-

1:06:42 You under- did you understand equity and that whole thing?

1:06:44 No. No. No. I don't understand any of it.

1:06:45 (coughs)

1:06:45 And i- it's like, I have shares in other companies that are all worthless, right? Like, it was just- it was growing up with my mom, watching her, that if I didn't have that, like, I just... And I don't even understand that shit. I just... I remember being with, uh, having lunch with, uh, Z- Zuck's, uh, parents, and like, you know, he doesn't... He comes from a nice family. And- and I think Yahoo or Micros- someone had offered him, right in the beginning, a billion dollars for it. And he's like, "No, thanks." And he's still sleeping on the fucking mattress on the ground, eating Doritos, and I'm like- I'm like, you know, I'm trying to, like, pay my fucking, uh, uh, all my friends back, and I'm like, "Oh, he doesn't give a shit. He doesn't care about money." Like, he cares about, like, what he cares about. It's, like, such a singular focus. He's like, "I wanna fucking disrupt the- I wanna bring the whole world together." It was, you know, youthful idealism. And I remember, uh, uh, going to work, uh, one day. I just loved working there 'cause I don't get jobs like that, where they're like, "Paint everything." Like, like, you're- you're here, like, doing this, and I'm painting around. (laughs) Like, I'm painting on everything and- and the best part is that they didn't even like what I was painting. Like, Mark would come in. He's like, "What- what is that, dude?" (laughs) And like, Sean's like, "Dave, you know that other thing you did? I saw it at the art show. Can you..." And I was like, "You didn't s- ask for that. You said fucking destroy. Like, you said scare people when they walk," you know. Um-

1:08:09 As I recall, there was, like, a- there was, like, a big primate, like monkey with jagged teeth and some crazy stuff.

1:08:14 Yeah. I was- I was- you know, and I was gassing myself out, you know? Like, I'm, like, doing all that shit without a mask on. It's all going right into my brain. Um, I'm like, whoever no- whatever spray- toxic spray paint fumes does to your brain, and there's no fresh air coming in. And I remember Sean Parker just bronze, just bronze skin, like, $200 haircut, custom suit. I don't know. I go, "Who are you, man?" And he was doing what my mom was doing. He was- he was just fucking doing push-ups and, like... And I was like, this skinny little nerd, like, just- he was, like, handsome and I go, "Oh, this is what my mom used to do before she went into a bu- she used to fucking..." And he's like, "Oh, we're- we're gonna get- we're gonna fucking raise some mon-" Like, he was... And I go, "Holy fuck. This guy is so sick," you know? And he transformed his physical appearance because he was about to go into, like, serious fundraising, and that's when I met the PayPal guy and Peter Thiel, and, like, just- I was like, "This guy's fucking..." You know. Like, people give all the credit to Mark, but I'm like, Sean, that guy was... He was an artist in, you know, and also, like, out of control, which, like, that attracted each other. And then he was there when they got- when he got fired, and all that stuff. But I remember, like, the impact that had on me, like, just, wow, like, you heard- you've heard the fake it till you make it, right? It's like, I- I know I'm not the best artist in the world, but my mom thinks so. But Sean Parker, like, other people think so. And I'm- but I'm like, "But that's... Whatever. They're just kissing my ass," or whatever. And then there can be a switch, and- and I think... It- it's like, sick and tired of being sick and tired, or enough is enough. Like, I just can't take it anymore. It's like, well, I- I- I can't live like this anymore. I- I- I feel like I'm trapped. I feel like... And so then it's like, "Oh, you can't travel. You need money for that." Well, I'm gonna hitchhike then. I'm gonna hop on a freight train. I saw the entire world with nothing, no money. Like, "Well, it must be nice to be rich." I go, "I'm rich now." I've had nothing my whole life, and I just had to fucking fight for it, and, like, would I recommend it? Like, a lot of it was illegal. I spent a lot of time in jail. But also, jail didn't hurt me. I lived, and I spent some time there. I got to learn who I am, and- and so it's just to piece out the skills you learn for what's creativity, what's business, what- what aided me and helped me at this time in my life that which no longer aids me now, and how to, like...

David Choe 1:10:57 'Cause my- and what... The other thing I learned from my mom is she just adapts. "Oh, our business just burned down in the LA riots." And instead of, like, sitting there, it's like, "Okay, now we're doing this. Now we're doing this. Now we're doing this," and I'm like... I remember getting a job in, uh, Beverly Hills right after high school. I was 18, 1994. And it was at this weird comic book, like a high-end comic bookstore called Comics Top Hits. I'm a comic book guy. I love comics. And I remember I beg the guy for a job. I'm like, "Please, please." And he's like, "All right, fine. The customers seem l-" 'Cause I would just hang out there and talk to the customers anyways. And I remember one day Stan Lee showed up, and I'm like, "Fuck, Stan Lee, like, my hero," you know? And he- and he sat there, and, um, people were bringing him Darkwing Duck, Batman, Archie, like, all the things he- he- he didn't work on. (laughs) "Hey, Marvel fans," and he'd just sign everything, and I'm... Like, I was, like, the guy managing the line that day and I'm looking at his hair plugs, and I go, "You fucking f- Like, you didn't fucking invent Batman. You're..." You know? And at the end of the day, I'd built up enough confidence to, you know, as everyone left and we're packing up, I'm like, "Stan, dude. You didn't invent Batman. Why the fuck you sign that guy's book?" And he's like, "Did you see their faces? Did you see... Like, they were so happy." Like, "Why would I... Uh, why would I get in the way of their happiness?" And I'm like, "Holy shit, dude." He's like, "Yeah. Don't correct people." And I thought about that. Like, everywhere I go in the world and there's like, "Ching chong China," this... I- I remember being in Africa and these kids were just chasing us everywhere going, "Ching chong," and our translator was a French-Vietnamese guy, and he was like...... Dave's Korean, I'm Vietnam... And it's like, you're just... They don't give a shit, dude. They don't give a fuck, and I remember just, the things I'm talking about is, like, watching Sean Parker shape-shift, watching my mom shape-shift, watching, um... Act as if you belong. Act as if you have a seat at the table. It's like, "Ah, I have no fucking seat at the table." It's like, I know that's part of being an artist, just being, like, shy, nerdy, uh, self-conscious. It's like, just pretend like you're the best artist in the world. Like, you just show up and you're like... Put, like... This is the journey from their head to heart. You're, you're, this is a, uh, uh, I like when you talk because you, you make sense. But there, there's, uh, that, and that's why the smartest people in the world are the dumbest fucking idiots I've met because they try to apply logic to everything, and you're applying, uh, logic to spiritual problems. You're applying logic to emotional problems, and it's like, how is that working out for you? It's not. It's not g-... You're never gonna out-think a feeling. You're never gonna out-smart a feeling, like, you know? Like, wait, the, the, these people are act-... Like, what? Who would do that? Why, why would you do that? And I'm like, because it's not logical. It's, it's an emotional thing. It's a, it's a, it's a mentally ill, uh, whatever it is, it's a, it's not logic-based, it's emotion-based. It's mentally ill-based. It's spiritual-based. Like, you can't fuck with people's religion or what they've, have faith in, or, and, uh, and all this stuff. So, I'm, I'm watching... I, I remember going, Stefan correcting the Black kids that he's Vietnamese is making them feel stupid and they're getting angrier. The kids that think I'm Bruce Lee and I just confirm that I'm Bruce Lee are getting happy. Right? It's like, people are dumb out there. That's fine, I don't care. I'm dumb, I'm stupid. Uh, it's like, when someone corrects me, uh, it, it makes me feel ashamed and dumber. But then, if no one corrects me, it's like, then it's my own shit to figure that out. Or not, right? So, watching these people, like, very successful people in my life. My mom, she's like, unstoppable, right? Anything the world throws at her, she just goes, "Okay, I guess we're doing this now." Like, she doesn't hang on. She's like, "Hang on tightly, let go lightly." Right? It's just like, okay, we were real estate people, now we're doing Herbalife. Oh, uh, that happened, Mark Hughes died? Okay, now we're doing this. Like, she just goes like that. Like, like, adapts to any situation. And like, right now, I get a call a week from all artists, creative types that they're, it's arm-... You know, uh, we don't have to have a AI talk. I don't, I would rather not have an AI talk, but it's Armageddon, right? Everyone's like, "I've spent my life doing sound engineering, and now it's gone." Just like the guy who would do the, like, hand-letter this and then Photoshop, boom, your job's gone. The Carl Zeiss lens go on the iPhone, and now photographers... Like, it's just, it's gone. Like, you could sit there and start complaining or you could just keep adapting, and so I think true creativity, you can't contain. If you're, if you're open and you're ready to get naked and you're ready to, you know... People are like, "Oh, do you have to suffer to be a great artist?" Absolutely, but you've already suffered enough. It's already done. Like, whatever happened to you in your childhood? That's enough fuel for the rest of... (laughs) You don't have to continually... But I see myself and others at times, like, I, I, hopefully I'm better now, but I see people continually putting themselves in a si- this situation to, like, suffer more and more and more. And I, and I, and I just, I just remember the, the shame of my, my... Like, it's just these things that are, that are, that are, you know, decades ago but they're still, like... My dad just, like, throwing me ac-... Like, we left another country so you could be a criminal event. Like, just,