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Using Your Mind to Control Your Physical Health & Longevity | Dr. Ellen Langer

In this episode, my guest is Dr. Ellen Langer, Ph.D., professor of psychology at Harvard University and the world’s leading researcher on the mind-body connection and the power our thinking has on our physical health. She explains how specific ways of framing and asking questions about the world shape our physical health and rate of aging. Dr. Langer also explains how our perception of time and control significantly impact our rate of physical healing, hormones, immune system, and longevity. She describes mindfulness as a way of framing life, not simply a meditation or other practice, and discusses data showing how to use one’s mind to overcome health challenges and achieve remarkable outcomes. Dr. Langer is a luminary and pioneer in researching the relationship between the mind and body with scientific rigor. Her work and our discussion are applicable to women and men of all ages and walks of life. Read the full episode show notes: https://go.hubermanlab.com/nbPy451 *Thank you to our sponsors* AG1: https://drinkag1.com/huberman BetterHelp: https://betterhelp.com/huberman Helix Sleep: https://helixsleep.com/huberman Joovv: https://joovv.com/huberman Function: https://functionhealth.com/huberman Our Place: https://fromourplace.com/huberman *Follow Huberman Lab* Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hubermanlab Threads: https://www.threads.net/@hubermanlab X: https://twitter.com/hubermanlab Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/hubermanlab TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@hubermanlab LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-huberman Website: https://www.hubermanlab.com Newsletter: https://www.hubermanlab.com/newsletter *Dr. Ellen Langer* Website: https://www.ellenlanger.me Harvard academic profile: https://psychology.fas.harvard.edu/people/ellen-langer Books: https://amzlink.to/az0fOvqL588CY Blogs: https://www.ellenlanger.me/blogs Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ellenjlanger/ X: https://x.com/ellenjl Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ellen.langer LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ellenjlanger *Timestamps* 00:00:00 Dr. Ellen Langer 00:02:57 Mindfulness 00:06:53 Mindless, Focus; Being Mindful 00:11:03 Sponsors: BetterHelp & Helix Sleep 00:13:41 Meditation 00:14:47 Choices & Longer Life; Mind & Body Unity, Exercise, Nocebo & Placebo Effect 00:25:39 Self, Mind-Body Interconnectedness 00:32:16 Acupuncture; Cancer & Healing, Probabilities, Tool: Tragedy or Inconvenience? 00:42:18 Sponsors: AG1 & Joovv 00:44:46 Brain & Predictions, Control & Mindlessness; Resolutions 00:48:09 “Should” Thoughts, Multitasking, Making Moments Matter, Work-Life Balance 00:56:55 Sleep, Stress, Tool: Perceived Sleep & Performance 01:01:58 Counterclockwise Study 01:06:15 Pioneering a Field, Change, Decisions & Uncertainty 01:16:47 Sponsor: Function 01:18:35 Making Sense of Behavior, Forgiveness, Blame 01:25:35 Technology, Human Drive; Tool: Noticing & Appreciating New Things 01:32:50 Art, Mindfulness, Education, Awards 01:39:30 Labels, Borderline Effect; Identity, “I Am”, Learning & Age 01:49:44 Sponsor: Our Place 01:50:56 Memory Loss, Vision; Chronic Disease, Symptom Variability 02:01:22 Deadlines, Constraints; Scientific Method & Absolutes 02:06:47 Covid Crisis, Uncertainty, Multiple Answers 02:12:06 Age & Decline?, Experience Levels & “Disinhibited” 02:18:18 Justice, Drama; Life-Changing Events & Perspective 02:25:45 Death, Spontaneous Cancer Remission; Will to Live 02:31:59 Mindful Hospital, Stress, Burnout, Tool: Mindful Checklist 02:36:32 Noticing, Choices 02:41:16 Coddling, Fragility, Social Media, Money 02:48:26 Tool: Playfulness 02:52:08 Nostalgia, Mindfulness; Tool: Gamifying Life; Parenthood & Work 02:59:17 Healing & Time Perception, Awareness & Neuroplasticity, Imagine Possibilities 03:07:12 Reviews & Critical Feedback, Others’ Opinions 03:12:00 Enlightenment, Flexibility, Expansiveness; Everyone Song 03:19:47 Zero-Cost Support, YouTube, Spotify & Apple Follow & Reviews, Sponsors, YouTube Feedback, Protocols Book, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter #HubermanLab #Science #Health Disclaimer & Disclosures: https://www.hubermanlab.com/disclaimer

Andrew HubermanhostEllen Langerguest
Feb 3, 20253h 22mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:57

    Dr. Ellen Langer

    1. AH

      (instrumental music) Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Ellen Langer. Dr. Ellen Langer is a professor of psychology at Harvard University, and one of the world's leading pioneers in the mind-body connection, more specifically, how our thoughts impact our health. Dr. Ellen Langer was one of the first people to systematically explore the mind-body connection with scientific rigor. Her laboratory has made a large number of truly fascinating findings. For instance, today you'll learn about a study that Dr. Langer did in which she brought quite old people into her laboratory, or rather she designed a laboratory such that people lived in this laboratory, but the laboratory itself was designed to resemble the environment, everything from the types of furniture, the types of dishes, the types of music, etc., that those people had lived in 20 years prior. When those subjects lived in that laboratory for less than one week, the change in the environment and their interaction with that environment led them to have far more mobility, better cognitive function, and a large number of other markers of biological aging reversed, which is absolutely remarkable and speaks to the incredible power that the mind has over our biology. That's just one example of the sorts of experiments that Dr. Langer has done, again, with a tremendous amount of scientific rigor. So today, Dr. Langer and I talk about how the acquisition of knowledge, just simply learning about certain biological mechanisms, as well as your mindset about various aspects of your health and wellbeing, can powerfully dictate your health and wellbeing. We talk about longevity, we talk about exercise and weight loss, we talk about infectious disease. In fact, we also talk about how mindset can impact cancer outcomes, or rather overcoming cancer. We discuss examples, mechanisms, and practical application of those mechanisms. By the end of today's episode, I assure you that Dr. Ellen Langer will change the way that you think about the mind-body connection, the way you think about your health, and I assure you, it's not all just about positive thinking. In fact, Dr. Ellen Langer gets us to think differently about scientific questions, our health, and just about everything else (laughs) in the world. You'll soon see, she has a quite unique way of thinking, not just about science and health, but also about life in general and what makes for a truly good life. Dr. Ellen Langer is a true luminary and pioneer in this area of mind-body health, and she's a fabulous teacher as well. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr.

  2. 2:57 – 6:53

    Mindfulness

    1. AH

      Ellen Langer. Dr. Ellen Langer, welcome.

    2. EL

      Thank you, Andrew.

    3. AH

      So great to have you here. There are so many topics that you've worked on and shed light on that impact our daily lives and our internal world and our external world and how they interact. I wanna know your definition of mindfulness, and it could take on practical forms, theoretical forms.

    4. EL

      No, I make it very simple-

    5. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    6. EL

      ... that when most people hear the word mindful, sadly, they think of meditation. Meditation is great, but it's not mindful. You meditate in order to result in post-meditative mindfulness, okay? Uh, so it's a practice. Mindfulness, as I study it, is a way of being. It's not a practice. It's the simple process of noticing. Now, you can get there in one of two ways. Bottom-up is actively notice three new things about the person you live with. Walk outside, notice three new things. Each time you do this, you see that you didn't know the thing you thought you knew as well as you thought you knew it. But you can also do it top-down. Um, top-down is recognize that everything is always changing, everything looks different from different perspectives, uncertainty is the rule, it's not the exception. So when you know you don't know, then you naturally tune in. So one of the things... I've said this so many times, maybe this'll be the last. Uh, one of the things we think we know best is, how much is one plus one, Andrew?

    7. AH

      I'm gonna assume it's still two.

    8. EL

      Two. Not always. If you add one wad of chewing gum to one wad of chewing gum, one plus one is one. You add one cloud to one cloud, one plus one is one. Um, y- oh, this was interesting, somebody sent this to me the other day. If you take one pizza and you add one pizza, one plus one is two. You take one lasagna and you add one lasagna, one plus one is one. It's just a bigger lasagna, right? You take one puddle and you add... Let's say you have two puddles there and you add some water in between, and then you have one plus one plus one is one. Okay, so the point of it is that in the real world, one plus one probably doesn't equal two as, uh, more often as it does. And since you're an educated individual, you might know that one plus one equals two if you're using a base-10 number system. If you're using a base-2 number system, one plus one is written as 10. Oh, my goodness. If somebody asks you, "How much is one plus one?" should you say, "One, two, ten"? Um, and, um, the point is that when you know you don't know, then you pay attention. In this context, let me see, I'll be a smartass and I'll say one (laughs) , um, or in this context, I know the person wants me to be obedient and I'll say two, so on and so forth. So when you don't know, you pay attention. When you pay attention, you have choices that otherwise you're blind to. It makes a very big difference. So when you're mindful, you don't know, you actively notice. As you're noticing, the neurons are firing, and 50 years of research has shown that it's literally and figuratively enlightening.... and if you're gonna do something, show up for it. Now, the problem is that most people are mindless almost all the time, and they're totally oblivious to it. When you're not there, you're not there to know you're not there, and most people are just not there. Now, you wanna ask me, "How does that happen?" Well, we're taught that. Schools, I think, are the biggest culprits. Schools are teaching us absolute answers, one plus one is two. Virtually everything that we're taught is as if the world is constant and going to stay that way, and the answer today is going to be the same answer as tomorrow. Um, and so that certainty leads us not to notice.

  3. 6:53 – 11:03

    Mindless, Focus; Being Mindful

    1. EL

    2. AH

      How did you come to realize this thing that we call mindfulness?

    3. EL

      Okay.

    4. AH

      I mean, it, uh, certainly in the last 20 years, the notion of meditation as a valuable practice has, has become pretty-

    5. EL

      Common.

    6. AH

      ... common.

    7. EL

      Sure.

    8. AH

      Um, and prior to that, it was considered a little bit, uh, alternative-

    9. EL

      Let me, let me answer-

    10. AH

      ... hippy-dippy.

    11. EL

      Let me answer it, so okay, so it's very funny. I, I'm glad in some ways, I don't remember who this person was, but I started studying mindlessness, and I, and I found myself, I'd walk into a mannequin, I'd apologize, you know, all sorts of things like that, and I'd say, "Well, this is kind of interesting to me." I'm speaking to somebody, we don't know who it was anymore, who said to me, "You know, you are what you study." I said, "Okay," so then I switched it around from being mindless to being mindful. At that point, then I found out about, um, you know, meditation and Buddhism and all of this and started to learn about, um, another way of being. What was exciting to me was that I had gotten through this Western scientific mold, so to speak, to the same, um, many of the same consequences as the Buddhists had talked about for thousands of years.

    12. AH

      It's, it's interesting how, um, now in Western society, we embrace this idea of presence, but it gets merged with these, um, kind of more rigid terms, like focus and attention.

    13. EL

      Yeah, no, focus is actually mindless. You know, um, so it's interesting, um, focus on your finger. Now, if you're concentrating and focusing, what you're gonna notice is that your fingers, the image is moving around.

    14. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    15. EL

      Right? And so when we try to hold something still, that's the wrong thing. You shouldn't tell people to focus. Now, instead of focus, look at your finger mind- mindfully. That means you're gonna notice new things. "Oh, that's an ugly little finger," and, "What is that line there?" and, "Why is this red?" And when you're doing that, when you're actively noticing, uh, the image stays still.

    16. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    17. EL

      So, when we give people instructions in school, you know, "Focus," they think as a camera, hold it still. And whenever we're trying to hold ourselves, the image, anything still, we're going to be performing suboptimally. We need to let things vary. Things are always changing. So what happens is we confuse the stability of our mindsets, we're holding something still in our heads, with the stability of the underlying phenomena.

    18. AH

      So mindfulness as a, as a practice of exploration, presence and exploration is perhaps-

    19. EL

      Sure, yes.

    20. AH

      ... a, a, a slightly better, perhaps, way to think about it?

    21. EL

      Yeah, but it's not a practice. You see, once you accept that, um, everything is uncertain, then you just tune in. You only don't tune in when you think you know. So, if you were gonna come visit me in, um, uh, Cambridge, you've never been to my house, you don't have to practice anything. You walk in. You'll notice things, just, "Did she do that paint- What is that?" You know, "Oh, look what she's reading."

    22. AH

      "There's two dogs here."

    23. EL

      You'll just, you'll just... Exactly, exactly, you'll, you'll notice-

    24. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    25. EL

      ... um, without having to do any work, and that's the important thing because in the way I keep differentiating mindfulness as I study it with meditation, meditation is a practice. For some people, to sit still 20 minutes twice a day is work. Mindfulness, as I study it, is what you do when you're having fun. You can't have fun unless you're actively noticing. Right? So, in fact, this active noticing is energy begetting, not consuming. So, it feels good. It's the essence of when you're doing, when you're having the most fun. It's good for you, and it's so easy that, you know, I can't see any reason why anybody wouldn't embrace it. Um, you know, that, um, it's good for you. When you're mindful, people find you more appealing, charismatic. When you're mindful, the products you produce are enhanced. Um, and it's healthier.

  4. 11:03 – 13:41

    Sponsors: BetterHelp & Helix Sleep

    1. EL

    2. AH

      I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, BetterHelp. BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist, carried out entirely online. Now, I personally have been doing therapy weekly for well over 30 years. Initially, I didn't have a choice. It was a condition of being allowed to stay in school, but pretty soon I realized that therapy is an extremely important component to one's overall health. In fact, I consider doing regular therapy just as important as getting regular exercise, which of course I also do every week. There are essentially three things that great therapy provides. First of all, it provides a good rapport with somebody that you can trust and talk to about pretty much any issue with. Second of all, it can provide support in the form of emotional support and directed guidance. And third, expert therapy can provide useful insights, insights that allow you to better not just your emotional life and your relationship life, but of course also the relationship to yourself and your professional life, and to all sorts of goals. BetterHelp makes it very easy to find an expert therapist with whom you resonate with and that can provide you those three benefits that come from effective therapy. Also, because BetterHelp allows for therapy to be done entirely online, it's super time efficient and easy to fit into a busy schedule. If you'd like to try BetterHelp, you can go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month. Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.Today's episode is also brought to us by Helix Sleep. Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs. Now, I've spoken many times before on the Huberman Lab Podcast and elsewhere about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance. Now, the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in terms of the quality of sleep that you get each night. How soft it is, how firm it is, how breathable it is, the temperature all play into your comfort and needs to be tailored to your unique sleep needs. If you go to the Helix website, you'll take a brief two-minute quiz, and it will ask you questions such as, "Do you tend to sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach?" It will also ask you, "Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night or the early part of the night," et cetera, things of that sort. Maybe you know the answers to those questions, maybe you don't, but either way, Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you. For me, that turned out to be the Dusk mattress, D-U-S-K. I started sleeping on the Dusk mattress about three and a half years ago, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had. It's absolutely clear to me that having a mattress that's right for you does improve one's sleep. If you'd like to try Helix, you can go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take that two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that is customized for your unique sleep needs. Right now, Helix is giving up to 25% off all mattress orders. Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to get up to 25% off.

  5. 13:41 – 14:47

    Meditation

    1. AH

      I think for a lot of people, a practice of meditation, uh, feels like the best or most, um, you know, uh, obvious gateway into this thing that we're calling mindfulness.

    2. EL

      It's one way.

    3. AH

      Yeah.

    4. EL

      And I'm not demeaning it. I did some research f-... You know, in the '80s, on meditation. It's wonderful, it just, it's just different, and they're not mutually exclusive. You can do both. And part of the advantage of, um, meditating possibly has nothing to do with the meditation. You know, why are you gonna meditate? You say you want to be a kinder, nicer person. Hm, you could just be kinder and nicer, but now if you're gonna go to this trouble, 20 minutes twice a day you're gonna, you know, sit up and take notice and-

    5. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    6. EL

      ... be a kinder, nicer person.

    7. AH

      So, maybe it's the time investment as opposed to-

    8. EL

      Part.

    9. AH

      ... something, um, specific about the meditation practice.

    10. EL

      Yeah, and, you know, a- and-

    11. AH

      That's a heretical idea in the, in the world of wellne-... Uh, wellness.

    12. EL

      Yeah.

    13. AH

      Um, but of course, you-

    14. EL

      Well, but I'm not... But, but they're not mutually exclusive.

    15. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    16. EL

      You know? So, I'm not denying, uh, some of the more inherent properties, let's say, but there's this, this other piece to it.

  6. 14:47 – 25:39

    Choices & Longer Life; Mind & Body Unity, Exercise, Nocebo & Placebo Effect

    1. EL

    2. AH

      I love the way that you look at things that we take for granted as w-... Operating one way through this different perspective. Um, our mutual friend, Alia Crum, uh, told me the story that at one point she was in a conversation with you, and you said, "Well, maybe exercise and all its effects on our health is just an epiphenomenon."

    3. EL

      Hmm.

    4. AH

      Uh, could you talk a little bit more about that? I think, first of all, I don't think most people are familiar with what epiphenomena are, but this idea of looking at things through th-... A different portal seems so valuable, regardless of what the experimental outcome turned out to be. And perhaps we should touch on that experimental outcome about, uh, labor versus, um, non-labor.

    5. EL

      There's so much there, right? (laughs)

    6. AH

      Yeah.

    7. EL

      You know, I don't know where to, where to go.

    8. AH

      Well, first of all... Yeah.

    9. EL

      I mean, we wanna talk about that, the research with Alia

    10. NA

      Let's go.

    11. AH

      Yeah, let's, let's talk about the study.

    12. EL

      But before we go to the study though, let's go to the reason for the study.

    13. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    14. EL

      Way back when. All right. So, um, it's... There's so many paths I can take here. (laughs)

    15. AH

      Let's take them all. Try

    16. EL

      Okay, we'll, we'll start with one. So, I did some research, uh, back in the '70s with, uh, people in nursing homes. And why did I do that? Because, um, I had somebody in the family who was in a nursing home, and it was very distressing to see people just sitting there doing nothing and barely existing. And so, we had the idea that if we gave people choices, that might get them more engaged in their, in their living. And so we did that. We gave people, um, uh, encouragement to decide where to see people, whether to visit them in your room, in the lounge. You have to remember, you can't go into an establishment, a business, and turn the whole power structure around. So, within reason, we came up with choices people could make. We gave them an opportunity to see a movie. You could see it on Tuesday or Thursday. We gave them a plant to take care of. All right, the comparison group, the tender loving care group, uh, we told them, "You know, people will be visiting you, and we'll, uh, set it up so you can, um... You'll be visiting in the lounge." Everything was controlled in that way. "You can see a movie, um, and we'll let you know if you're gonna see it on Tuesday or Thursday. Here's a plant, and the nurses will care for it, uh, for you." All right, so, um, we do this, we come back, um, I think it was three weeks. Actually, I don't remember, it's been so long. Uh, 18 months later. First, we took initial measures. Come back 18 months later, those people who were, um, given this-... These choices live longer. And that was the beginning of, um, all of my work on health in some sense. How could it be that making choices results in a longer life? All right, so what is there about choice-making? And then the choices were Mickey Mouse choices, you know? Um, you can... You always have choice available to you. You can turn on a light switch. You can do it with your right hand, your right hand (laughs) and your left hand, one finger, three fingers, lift your foot. Like, so many choices that you can bring to the table. If choice-making is good for you, why don't people do this? And that got me more into, uh, the mindlessness and mindfulness work now. Okay, so we have people living longer. How can it be that you're making choices, your mind is active, and your body complies?And so then, I thought about it, uh, not in one fell swoop, um, but realized that this whole notion of mind and body, th- these are just words. We come together, here I am, all of me. My fingers, my shoulders, my thoughts, a- as one thing. And if we put the mind and body back together, then the amount of control we have is enormous, right? Wherever I put my mind, I'm also putting my body. So in The Mindful Body, which started off as a memoir, I have lots of stories that show the, leading up to this idea. Let me just tell you two very quickly. One was, I got married, Andrew, you won't believe it. I was obscenely young. And you find out, if you read the book, I was even m- younger then admitted 'cause I was secretly married years before that (laughs) . Okay, so I go, I'm 19 years old I think, I go to Paris on my honeymoon. We go into this restaurant, I order a mixed grill. One of the foods there was a pancreas. My then husband, who was more sophisticated than I, more worldly... And I said, "Which of these is the pancreas?" He says, "That." So I eat everything, I'm a big eater. Now comes the moment of truth: can I eat the pancreas? Why I thought that being married meant I had to eat the pancreas, I- I still haven't figured out (laughs) . But anyway, I start eating it and he starts laughing. Not good for newlyweds. And I ask him, "Why are you laughing?" He said, "'Cause that's chicken. You ate the pancreas a long time ago." So I made myself sick. Okay. The other side of that, my mother had, uh, breast cancer that had metastasized to her pancreas and, um, then magically, it was gone. Somehow, she had made herself well. So I had many of these sorts of experiences and talk about, you know, mind... I- I've been talking about this since, gosh, uh, when did we first... Since '79. So, now people are talking about mind/body connection, it's not a connection. You know, if you're talking about a connection between two things, it says they're separate and you still have to deal with what's connecting them. When you put them back together, it's one thing, you don't have to deal with, with, um, you know, that mediator. And so, um, the study you're asking (laughs) me about which I'm surprised, I'm having a junior moment that I actually remembered (laughs) the question you asked, rather than a senior moment (laughs) , um, that, uh, before I tell you about the study with Allie, the first study we did testing this mind/body unity was the counterclockwise study. So here what we did was we took elderly men, we were going to have them live in a retreat that had been retrofitted to 20 years earlier, and had them live there as if they were their younger selves. So they talked about things from the past as if they were just unfolding, and the results were incredible. Their vision improved, their hearing improved, their memory, their strength, and they looked noticeably younger. So, that was very exciting and began all this mind/body unity work. Now comes the study that you're talking about with Allie, where, um, in the conversation (laughs) that she and I had, she was my student, um, and she made proclamations about exercise and any proclamation, this is the short answer (laughs) to your question, anybody proclaims anything, my mind immediately goes, "Oh well, when might n- not that be true?"

    17. AH

      I'm starting to pick up on that.

    18. EL

      Yeah, right. (laughs)

    19. AH

      Yeah.

    20. EL

      You know? It's a, it's a gimmick I guess.

    21. AH

      It's a gift-

    22. EL

      (laughs)

    23. AH

      ... is what it is.

    24. EL

      Okay.

    25. AH

      Yeah.

    26. EL

      Um, and, uh, so, um, the question was that how important was the understanding of exercise to the effects of exercise? So we take chamber maids and interestingly, the first question we ask is, "How much exercise do you get?" And they say they don't get very much exercise because to them, exercise is what you do after work 'cause that's what the surgeon general who sits behind a desk all day says. Um, so you would imagine whether they realized they were getting exercise or not, since they're getting so much exercise, that they're going to be healthier than other people who are not getting them, and they weren't. And that's interesting. So now we divide them into two groups, very simple study. Um, randomly divide them into two groups and one group we simply teach them their work is exercise; making a bed is like working on this machine at the gym, doing the windows, whatever. So you have two groups; one who thinks their work is exercise, one who doesn't realize. Um, we take many, many measures, um, and they're not eating any differently, one group from the other, they're not working any harder. Nevertheless, the group that changed their mind and now saw their work as exercise lost weight, there was a change in waist to hip ratio, body mass index, and their blood pressure came down.

    27. AH

      Remarkable.

    28. EL

      Uh, yeah, yeah. And what, what I don't usually talk about, um, when I start talking about this is that, this was a test of the nocebo effect.

    29. AH

      Okay.

    30. EL

      Most people know what a placebo is, you take something that's nothing and it has the effect as if it's something, right? You take a sugar pill thinking it's strong medication and, um, it plays out as if it was. A nocebo is the reverse, you're taking something, so here, you're doing the exercise but you don't realize it and it, uh, gets rid of the effect. An- an early study on this was... I don't remember who did it, now is a senior moment, um, people were given ipecac, and ipecac is supposed to make you vomit. So if you accidentally had poison or whatever, you'd take ipecac and vomit. So people are given ipecac, people who have a problem vomiting, and they're told the ipecac will stop their vomiting, and it stops their vomiting.... a, so many placebo studies where you take people, they're rubbed with a, a leaf that they think is poison ivy, so it is, either is poison ivy or it's not poison ivy. You think it's poison ivy or you don't think it's poison ivy, and your body reacts to your thoughts. If you think it's not poison ivy, you don't get the rash. If you think it is poison ivy, you do.

  7. 25:39 – 32:16

    Self, Mind-Body Interconnectedness

    1. EL

    2. AH

      I want to talk about three themes that you raised. The first one is this mind/body notion.

    3. EL

      Mm-hmm.

    4. AH

      And now as, even as I say it, mind/body, I, I feel like a, a hint of guilt because I completely agree that the division of mind and body is one of the greatest mistakes of thinking i- in psychology, in Western medicine, that ever existed. In fact, a lot of my, uh, you know, secret mission in this podcast is to re- remind people every single episode it seems that, you know, the brain and body are connected bidirectionally through the nervous system, but other systems too. Like there's no, there's no single system, hormone system, nervous system, immune system-

    5. EL

      Right, it's all one.

    6. AH

      ... that doesn't, that, that doesn't, uh, you know, cross the blood-brain barrier and go back and forth.

    7. EL

      It's all because of Descartes. You know, Descartes-

    8. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    9. EL

      ... was out to dinner and the, uh, waitress asked him if he wanted a salad and he said, "I think not," and he disappeared. (laughs) I think I am, therefore I am. (laughs)

    10. AH

      Uh, I was about to ask like how d- how was it that he-

    11. EL

      And, and after that Andrew, I say, "This is not my day job," so I don't have to be funny.

    12. AH

      I love it. I love it. Um, I've spent a lot of time, um, trying to learn the history of medicine and, and the-

    13. EL

      Mm-hmm.

    14. AH

      ... the merge of philosophy and medicine. There's a wonderful book that if anyone is suffering from insomnia they should check out because it's extremely detailed and difficult to listen to or read, but it's called The Prince of Medicine, which basically details all the reasons why we are so confused about how medicine is done and should be done.

    15. EL

      Interesting.

    16. AH

      And it has to do with rules and restrictions and cultural conventions, and it's, it's a whole barbed wire mess basically. But, um, it includes this mess that was created for us, which is this idea that somehow because the brain is perhaps the seat of our consciousness, to many people they believe that, um, but certainly, you know, like if I, if I were to lose a few fingers on my left hand, I'm not sure I would fundamentally be a different person, but if I lost a few millimeter... or the equivalent amount of, uh, real estate in my brain, my personality could very well change, perhaps for the better.

    17. EL

      (laughs)

    18. AH

      Um, some, some would say, uh, and are probably now hoping for that event. Um, but all kidding aside, you know, I think the mind/body distinction is, uh, has really poisoned-

    19. EL

      Yeah. Yeah.

    20. AH

      ... our thinking about what's possible. And the other experiments that you, you described, you know, point to what's possible, and I, I want to talk about those. But maybe if we could just hover on this notion of the, of mind and body as, as a single thing, that there's an us... I don't want to get too philosophical here, but that, that there's an us and, and, and our body carries us forward in, in motor behavior.

    21. EL

      Well-

    22. AH

      But, but like how should we conceptualize the self if we don't have a mind/body distinction?

    23. EL

      U- I don't know why, why that's a problem.

    24. AH

      Well, I think-

    25. EL

      Why... You know, I, I am who I am-

    26. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    27. EL

      ... period. Right? How does that change whether we want to see me as having a mind, body, and elbows? Um, so explain to me and then I will explain to you.

    28. AH

      Yeah. Well, what I love is, um... I'm gonna first, uh, reflect. Uh, what I love is the, the flexibility of your thinking around these things. Again, it's like maybe exercise, the effects of exercise are epiphenomena.

    29. EL

      Mm-hmm.

    30. AH

      Or, um, uh, you know, so in thinking about mind/body, I, I can't get my, no pun intended-

  8. 32:16 – 42:18

    Acupuncture; Cancer & Healing, Probabilities, Tool: Tragedy or Inconvenience?

    1. EL

      yeah.

    2. AH

      What are your thoughts on things like acupuncture and, and, uh, like, and when I think about acupuncture, I'm not just thinking about the needles. Uh, the few times I've been to an acupuncturist, um, the first thing they do is they ask you to stick out your tongue. They, they are able to diagnose-

    3. EL

      Ah.

    4. AH

      ... um, tongue texture and color and, uh, maybe they are-

    5. EL

      I think everything is everywhere, although there's, you know, I, I teach health psych in, at Harvard and there's some data on it being mostly placebo.

    6. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    7. EL

      But, you know, and that sounds like a downer, but most of everything is placebo. What does that mean? That virtually everything is controlled by our thoughts and we need to embrace that, um, to make the changes that most of us desire. So, in other words, so going to an acupuncturist itself means, "I want to, to find answers."

    8. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    9. EL

      And seek and you are more likely to find.

    10. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    11. EL

      And, um, and then you're in a position to improve.

    12. AH

      Might I ask what happened with your mom's mindset or life?

    13. EL

      Oh.

    14. AH

      Or psychological life that you-

    15. EL

      Yeah.

    16. AH

      ... think led to the, um-

    17. EL

      No, there's, you know, it's a, an N of one, you know? Uh, it's very hard to know. I knew that when she got sick, uh, I believed at that point that, um, being anything negative was going to, um, work in the opposite direction. And so I wouldn't let anybody in to see her who wasn't uplifting. Um, you know, that was, I, I don't kn- there's no way of knowing if any of that mattered or not. I went and got her a very expensive set of golf clubs. Um, she wasn't a big golfer, but, you know, my reasoning was that, you know, I must believe she's going to be better or why would I have spent the money? Uh, her reasoning was, "My reasoning must be that if I get these, she'll think that..." You know? (laughs) So it didn't work, but we had these golf clubs that were never used. Um, you know, I don't know. Uh, I, I believe that, um, we have more control. Uh, at that point, I hadn't done all of these experiments, um, that might have led me to push even harder. It was kind of funny though, because the way I had cognized everything back then was the importance of perceived control. And so I had these data people living longer and so on. And yet mindlessly, I, you know, virtually took over her life, you know, deciding who can see or what she can do. Um, but, um, I don't know. Um, and I don't think there would've been with just one person any way of knowing what led to the, uh, disease going away. But the fact that it went away was crucial to me. You know, I think that, um, the, we, we have to talk about the myths, um, in, in medicine, that what people need to understand is that all science are probabilities. An experiment doesn't give you absolute facts. And we teach these probabilities as if they're absolute and, uh, give up a great deal of control by doing so. Now, um, you asked me before, um, about how I came to certain things. Let me go back, uh, to an answer I should have given you. Many years ago, I was, um, at a horse event and this man asked me would I watch his horse for him because he wants to get his horse a hotdog. Hotdog? I'm a straight A student. What is he, crazy? Horses don't eat meat. Sure, I'll watch your horse. He comes back with the hotdog and the horse ate it. And that's when I realized everything I thought I knew could be wrong. And I thought, "What does it mean horses don't eat meat? How many horses were tested? And what were they tested with? How much meat mixed with how much grain? And what kind of grain? And how big are these horses? And when was the last..." You know, and so on, and it all opened up and I said, "How could we make such a statement, 'Horses don't eat meat'?" But when you think about science, that imagine if you did the experiment and you're trying to teach somebody what you found, you say, "These particular horses who hadn't eaten for three days were given this grain and under those circumstances, 80% of them didn't eat meat." That's a mouthful.Right? You, you can't, you know, communicate that way- Mm-hmm. ... so you abbreviate it: Horses Don't Eat Meat. So it's not in the telling that's the problem, it's in the receiving of the information. We have to know that these things are, you know, are, are just not true to the one. But it's very important because every time you're given a diagnosis- Mm-hmm. ... you take the diagnosis as real. Well, it's not the case that they can be sure that all of these symptoms mean you have this disease, and if you have, quote, "this disease," we don't know that all of the people who have it are going to follow, and it, and it becomes very unlikely when you, when you turn it all inside out that way. And so, um, a- another part of this that we can get into or not is people's understanding of probabilities in general and that you can't predict. Now, people ask for answers all the time, you know, even the how much is one and one. Um, you know, uh, "Should I have the surgery? What is the disease that I have?" And by recognizing that all information that's given is for the group, not for the individual... Um, I- a few examples of this that's kind of funny. I say, so, um, Michael Jordan and I are gonna have a foul shooting contest. We each get to shoot one basket. Who's gonna win? Well, most people are just gonna quickly say Michael Jordan, all right? How much money are you willing to bet on this? One shot each. Million dollars. I'll give you a million dollars if Ellen Langer wins. You give me, um... Or I'll give you a million dollars if Michael Jordan wins. You give me half a million dollars if Ellen Langer wins. First you think he'll take the bet, but when you think about it, no, he sometimes misses. She sometimes makes the basket. Um, maybe had a fight with his wife, didn't sleep well. You know, maybe she is in top form and this is now the moment she's going to make that basket. Or, make it simple: He said to himself, "Let the older woman win. Why not?" (laughs) Really. You know, and when you think of all the reasons why it could be the case that I could win, all of a sudden you become less certain. Now, certainly if we were shooting 100 baskets, he would win. Lemme give you another example I use too often because I don't know which of these will, will feel right. You go and, um, to a Mercedes parking lot, or pick your favorite car. And I'm gonna say there are 100 cars there. You choose one and if it starts, I will give you a million dollars. If it doesn't start, you give me your full life savings, assuming it's under a million, capped at a million. All right? Now, Mercedes are wonderful cars. Nobody is gonna take that bet. Everybody knows, you know, sometimes it doesn't work. You know, sometimes the genius gets something wrong. Sometimes the car is a lemon, and so on. So what we mean when we say, you know, if you were gonna start 100 cars, most of them are going to start, but you can't predict which one isn't going to. Well, in life, I'm happy if an operation is good for most people. I wanna know is it going to work for me? And there's no way to know that. You can never predict the individual case. But Andrew, we don't have to worry about that because you can always predict or control your reaction to whatever is happening. So it doesn't matter as much. You see? If I can be happy whether this occurs or the opposite occurs, um, I care less about which way it turns out. But right now we're all brought up in a world where we have these good things, we have these bad things. You've got to kill yourself to get the good things, step over whoever you can to avoid the bad things. Once you recognize that's all in your head, well just be still. My favorite example, this is so... for me was so funny. I'm doing, uh, one of these podcasts over Zoom and I'm trying to explain that, um, uh, evaluation is in your head, not in the things you're evaluating. I say as an example, "So if the internet went out right now, it wouldn't be terrible. I'd go have lunch." The internet went out just at that moment (laughs) - (laughs) ... and I did have lunch because I had put the suggestion in my mind. You know, most things don't matter. We don't recognize that and I think... I, I have a few one-liners that if people understand or care about nothing else that I've said, take this to heart. That next time you're stressed, ask yourself, is it a tragedy or an inconvenience? It's almost never a tragedy. And so then you breathe... You know, it's like, I, um, failed the test, I got, you know, dented the car, I missed the bus. Whatever it is, so what? Um, and so, you know, you take a deep breath and come back to yourself and realize that most of the things that make us crazed are, um, unnecessary. You get a lot of this as you get older, but I teach my students this re- early on. Why wait? You know, why wait to recognize that you're the one who's your, almost always your worst enemy?

  9. 42:18 – 44:46

    Sponsors: AG1 & Joovv

    1. AH

      I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is an all-in-one vitamin mineral probiotic drink with adaptogens. I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring this podcast. The reason I started taking AG1, and the reason I still take AG1, is because it is the highest quality and most complete foundational nutritional supplement. What that means is, that AG1 ensures that you're getting all the necessary vitamins, minerals, and other micronutrients to form a strong foundation for your daily health. AG1 also has probiotics and prebiotics that support a healthy gut microbiome. Your gut microbiome consists of trillions of microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things, such as your immune system status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more. So I've consistently found that when I take AG1 daily, my digestion is improved, my immune system is more robust, and my mood and mental focus are at their best. In fact, if I could take just one supplement, that supplement would be AG1. If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer. They'll give you five free travel packs, plus a year's supply of vitamin D3K2 with your order of AG1. Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim this special offer. Today's episode is also brought to us by Joovv. Joovv makes medical grade red light therapy devices. Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast, it is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology. Now, in addition to sunlight, red light and near infrared light sources have been shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health, including faster muscle recovery, improved skin health and wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, even mitochondrial function, and improving vision itself. What sets Joovv lights apart, and why they're my preferred red light therapy device, is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning specific wavelengths of red light and near infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations. Personally, I use the Joovv whole body panel about three to four times a week, and I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel. If you'd like to try Joovv, you can go to Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman. Joovv is offering an exclusive discount to all Huberman Lab listeners, with up to $400 off Joovv products. Again, that's Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman to get up to $400 off.

  10. 44:46 – 48:09

    Brain & Predictions, Control & Mindlessness; Resolutions

    1. AH

      So much of our developmental wiring is based on learning how to predict what's going to happen next. I mean, you think about object constancy that kids, you know, of a certain age, you put a- a ball behind your back, they think it disappeared. Eventually they realize just because you moved your arm and the ball behind your back doesn't mean that- that the ball is gone. This kind of thing. Um, the brain-

    2. EL

      But sad- sadly, though, um, then they believe the ball is still there when in fact the ball may be gone.

    3. AH

      True. Right.

    4. EL

      Okay, so- so...

    5. AH

      There's always a portal, portal to a different...

    6. EL

      (laughs)

    7. AH

      To a different outcome. It's, um... And I'm catching on to your mode of thinking here. This is actually what I'm trying to, uh, trying to do.

    8. EL

      All right.

    9. AH

      Because I think, um, you know, the brain is a prediction-making machine in addition to doing other things. It regulates heartbeat, all the autonomic stuff, right? Heartbeat, digestion, et cetera. It remembers things and it's a prediction-making machine. Uh, at least those three things. I feel like the prediction-making aspect of our neural circuitry is what leads us to this notion of h- having control or wanting control, because I think a lot of what's ha- happening in our conversation and the backdrop of these, uh, experiments is, uh, to what extent do we have control over outcomes?

    10. EL

      Well, it's interesting because our mindlessness, which results, I think, in part to hold on to things, to have control, is the very thing that deprives us of control. Because, again, things are changing and you're holding it still in your mind, um, and, you know, so, um, you're living with somebo- or you meet somebody and you, you know, right away you decide what, you know, uh, size that person up. So now you can control your interactions with them, um, and... But what you're doing is ignoring all the times the person is not like that, um, and, uh, all the ways that the relationship, uh, could have otherwise grown. You know, that we, in general, and this is, you know, I have, um, a psychological treatment for chronic illness. It's all based on the same idea of change. Things are changing, we're always holding it still. And, um, so you have the illusion that you're controlling things. You know? But it, um... In fact, uh, you're giving up control by not recognizing, for yourself or somebody else. You know, all of our statements of "We can't do or we can do," you can't know whether you can or you can't. The fact that you did it doesn't mean that you can do it again. The fact that you couldn't do it doesn't mean you couldn't do it in the future.

    11. AH

      I feel like close to the end of each year, which we just, you know, passed recently, um, these lists come out.

    12. EL

      Oh, these resolutions are so mindless.

    13. AH

      Yes.

    14. EL

      And th- but they're more than just mindless. Um, they deny that what we did made sense or else we wouldn't have done it. That one thing that I told you is more important to me than anything else that I came to over all these years of study. Um, you know, so you're going to resolve that you're going to, I don't know, stop drinking, you're gonna, uh, go to the gym. Whatever these New Year's resolutions are suggests that what you were doing instead of that thing you think you should be doing was not something you should have been doing. And, um, and I think that's never the case.

  11. 48:09 – 56:55

    “Should” Thoughts, Multitasking, Making Moments Matter, Work-Life Balance

    1. EL

    2. AH

      I woke up early this morning and, and the f- my first thoughts of the day I like to think have some importance for something. Who knows? Uh, it's when my mind, uh, seems clearest for at least a nanosecond. Um, and my first thought was that...... the pattern that I seem to be perpetually in is one of whatever I'm doing, unless I'm podcasting or reading a research paper, that my mind is constantly flitting to the other things that I think I should be doing.

    3. EL

      Yeah, that's sad.

    4. AH

      And it's very, it's sad, and it's something I've been working on for a very long time. And I'm able to hold my, for lack of a better word, attention on things to accomplish, tasks, and, you know, in my life, and to be present with people as it were. But, um, I- I thought that-

    5. EL

      No, no, no. Let's go back-

    6. AH

      Yeah.

    7. EL

      ... a step because we both said it was sad. Why is it sad? (laughs)

    8. AH

      Well-

    9. EL

      I'm reconsidering.

    10. AH

      Yeah. Well-

    11. EL

      You know, that, to, um, to be able to think of five different things instead of one-

    12. AH

      Mm-hmm. It's dreadful. Uh- (laughs)

    13. EL

      ... could be, could be an asset.

    14. AH

      It's... Right, it could be an asset. I think that, for me, what I- I realize is, um, most of the shoulds are just total lies.

    15. EL

      Yeah.

    16. AH

      They don't, they... And also, they don't-

    17. EL

      Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

    18. AH

      They're just lies. Like they're not actually coming from a- a scr- I'm not hearing other people's voices in my head. Uh, you know, "You should do this." It's, you know, not parental narrative or- or anything. It's just, it's just, um, it's just contamination of a- of a- like, of a useless type. It's not like listening to the radio. I used to listen to the radio while I'd, like, make dinner or something, and it was so pleasant, right? You know, you hear-

    19. EL

      Mm-hmm.

    20. AH

      ... an evening discussion about the news or talk- a talk show or whatever on the radio, um, while cooking. And so that kind of, quote-unquote, distraction felt really meaningful. I felt like when I lived alone that I had other people in the room with me. This is different. This is, it feels as if it detracts from some, um, essence of the behavior that I'm in, even if the behavior is just getting out of bed in the morning.

    21. EL

      Wait, so let me be clear. You get out of bed-

    22. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    23. EL

      ... or start to get out of bed-

    24. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    25. EL

      ... and you have several thoughts.

    26. AH

      Yep.

    27. EL

      And those thoughts bother you?

    28. AH

      Um-

    29. EL

      Or they prevent you from getting out of bed?

    30. AH

      No, but they feel intrusive. They don't feel welcome. Like, because I know what I'm going to do each day. I have a policy for myself of doing one work thing each day, maybe in one or two blocks, and I try and really put everything I have into those. It's kind of a recent evolution of not trying to do three things in a day. Um, maybe it's a function of getting older, but I- I get so much more satisfaction and get truly so much more done from just f- doing one thing in my work life each day.

  12. 56:55 – 1:01:58

    Sleep, Stress, Tool: Perceived Sleep & Performance

    1. AH

      I love that notion. I mean, I, uh, will routinely f- these, uh, these articles just get served up to me in my, in my Google feed or something, like the five things that people regret most on their deathbed. I think these lists are terrible.

    2. EL

      I, I do too.

    3. AH

      I think they're terrible because w- without fail, the number one, two, or three is always, "I wish I hadn't worked as much."

    4. EL

      Yeah.

    5. AH

      I've derived tremendous-

    6. EL

      Me too. Me too.

    7. AH

      ... pleasure from my work, but also tremendous relationships-

    8. EL

      Sure.

    9. AH

      ... tremendous le- uh, tremendous, excuse me, levels of insight into, what I think are insights anyway.

    10. EL

      Well, clear, y- you wouldn't-

    11. AH

      Y-

    12. EL

      ... be having the experience now. (laughs)

    13. AH

      Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I mean, I, I'm constantly in pinch me moments-

    14. EL

      Yeah. No.

    15. AH

      ... with the podcast. That was also true when I was running my lab, and then I decided to transition more to this and to other things. But, I mean, this notion that one wishes they'd worked less-

    16. EL

      Yeah.

    17. AH

      ... is such a, it's such a sad thing to even think about, uh, but it also implies that, you know, somebody who enjoys their work doesn't enjoy their family or their relationships-

    18. EL

      Right.

    19. AH

      ... and that certainly isn't true-

    20. EL

      Yeah.

    21. AH

      ... either. So there are all these assumptions that are written into these lists. I'm actually quite opposed to, um, lists of that sort in a short media article form, because I think, A, it clearly doesn't change behavior.

    22. EL

      Mm-hmm.

    23. AH

      I mean, people have been talking about, you know, drink less. Well, smoking was eradicated mostly from, from this country through different mechanisms, but, um, you know, sleep, sleep more, um, stress less. I mean, the, the, these lists come out and they, they don't change behavior at all.

    24. EL

      And not only that, but even the discussion about, let's say something like sleep, and I find it outrageous-

    25. AH

      (laughs)

    26. EL

      ... um, I, I, we might even disagree on this here, but, uh, when people say, "How much sleep do you need?" Now, to me, if I just ran a marathon, I, that night, I probably need a different amount of sleep than if I stayed in bed eating candy, watching movies all day.

    27. AH

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    28. EL

      You know? And, um, and, uh, my age, uh, e- everything-

    29. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    30. EL

      ... should, um, play a part in this. Um-

  13. 1:01:58 – 1:06:15

    Counterclockwise Study

    1. AH

    2. EL

      Yeah.

    3. AH

      Um, I'd like to just briefly go back to the, um, counterclockwise study.

    4. EL

      Yeah.

    5. AH

      Could you describe a little bit more about the, um, the practical aspects of that study? So, these were people who, uh, let's say were, on average, how old? Was it somewhere between, like, 30 and 50, or no?

    6. EL

      No, no, no, no, no. Counterclockwise? No, these were people who were 80.

    7. AH

      Oh, 80. Okay, excuse me.

    8. EL

      Yeah. Yeah, but also, that was when, um, 80 was 80, not the new 60.

    9. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    10. EL

      They were old.

    11. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    12. EL

      In fact, I remember when we were interviewing, I was interviewing people to see if they could be in the study. So, um, they're down the hall, I'm in my office, and I see them. And, you know, they look like they're not gonna make it down (laughs) the hall to the office.

    13. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    14. EL

      And I'm saying to myself, "Why am I doing this?" You know, that I'm taking on too much. You know, I, I, in fact, had I realized all the responsibility, uh, at that point that I was actually assuming, I probably wouldn't have done it. I mean, I was in charge of these people's lives, everything about them for, you know, for this five days without knowing these people, without a full medical, you know, support system or whatever.

    15. AH

      Yeah, if one or two of them had died-

    16. EL

      Yeah, I mean, I would've, yeah.

    17. AH

      ... you could end up in a mess. Yeah.

    18. EL

      Yeah, so I was fortunate that none of that happened. But, you know, so they were old. Um, and, um, it was interesting because, you know, they show up and they look, you know, really, now would probably be somebody 105.

    19. AH

      Wow.

    20. EL

      That's the way they, you know, presented. Um, and you'd have, you'd speak to the person, and usually the adult daughter would do the answering rather than, you know... So they were coddled, they were presumed to, to have all sorts of, um, problems and so on. Almost instantly when they got there, they changed. The feeling was almost palpable. Now, I did this thing, wasn't good science, but, um ... So, the first group that we took there was the reminiscing group. This was a group where they were going to reminisce for that week. So, they always knew now was now and then was then, right? That was a, a control group. We get to the retreat and, um, I'm in this van ... Oh, people, you know, people need to understand, the study was, um, back before Google, before we had the internet. You know, so when I'm playing music in the van going to the event, music from the past, this was a major thing to find this. Now it takes two minutes, you ask Chad lately. You know, "Give me the 10 best songs back, uh, 20 years ago." At any rate, um, so I'm on the, uh, on the bus with them, music playing, from the past playing. We get very close to the retreat, and all of a sudden I realize that no- I was sexist at the time, oblivious, um, that, uh, none of my male graduate students were with me. That meant I had seven old men and at least seven heavy suitcases. There was no way (laughs) that I was going to carry their suitcases upstairs. So, um, unplanned for, (laughs) we get off the bus and I say, "You're in charge of your own suitcase. I don't care if you move it an inch at a time to get it to your room, or you unpack it here, a shirt at a time, however you want to do it." Now imagine, nothing else, the difference between somebody who's coddled, who's not even thought to be able to respond to a question, you know, where the daughter or son would answer for them, to now, they're in charge of their whole lives. And, um, that meant that even the comparison group was going to do well.

    21. AH

      Wow.

    22. EL

      Which they did, just not quite as well as the other group. And for me, that was fine, because as you mentioned before, my work is all about possibility. I'm not interested in describing what is, I'm interested in seeing what may be. You know, so, um, if I got, um, one monkey to say, "Hey, Ellen, that's nonsense," that would be fine if we couldn't train the rest of them.

    23. AH

      (laughs)

    24. EL

      You know? But it would lead us to different views of language,

  14. 1:06:15 – 1:16:47

    Pioneering a Field, Change, Decisions & Uncertainty

    1. EL

      for example.

    2. AH

      I love this approach to science of seeing what may be. I have to say, there's this little script running in the back of my mind, and now I'm not gonna judge it. The sorts of experiments and the general line of inquiry that you've been involved in for, you know, some time now, to me, runs countercurrent to my perception of, I'm just gonna be honest 'cause I'm a West Coast guy, the Harvard campus, and the, and the, the idea that science is done in a particular way. Um, you know-... a, a very brief anecdote. You know, the, the folks that found it at the Esalen Institute in Big Sur-

    3. EL

      Mm.

    4. AH

      ... were at Stanford at one point, they weren't professors, but there's a story, and I believe the story, that they had proposed at that time, um, a class on mindfulness and breathing-

    5. EL

      Mm.

    6. AH

      ... to bring Stan Graff through and some other people. And this was probably the, the late '70s, early '80s, and whatever the cultural norms were at Stanford at that time, they claim they were basically run off campus-

    7. EL

      Hm.

    8. AH

      ... went and started Esalen. I don't know if it's a true story-

    9. EL

      No. No.

    10. AH

      ... but I like the story anyway. My lab at Stanford ran a study on particular patterns of breathing, along with David Spiegel, and how it can be used to s- uh, you know, self- uh, adjust stress levels and reduce stress levels. Okay, so n- and nowadays, there's grants given for this kind of stuff-

    11. EL

      Yeah.

    12. AH

      ... and meditation, so there's been a huge shift in the, in the, in the academic cultural milieu.

    13. EL

      Mm-hmm.

    14. AH

      But given that you've been running these sorts of, you know, seeing what may be types of studies for a number of years, at a campus that I consider as more kind of like East Coast dyed-in-the-wool notions of-

    15. EL

      Huh.

    16. AH

      ... how science is done-

    17. EL

      Yeah.

    18. AH

      ... I wanna know, A, how was it received early on? B, did you care?

    19. EL

      (laughs)

    20. AH

      C, is it in your nature and has it always been in your nature to kind of test the elements? Because I sense, but I could be completely wrong because I'm not a psychologist, that, that you delight-

    21. EL

      I'm an iconoclast? No. (laughs)

    22. AH

      ... that you delight in kind of, um, not poking the bear, but playing with ideas that are, um, kind of heretical, you know?

    23. EL

      Well, I would use the methods of the field.

    24. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    25. EL

      It was just the questions that were different, so-

    26. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    27. EL

      ... they weren't seen to be quite as different as you're, uh, suggesting.

    28. AH

      Did any of your colleagues think, like, like, gr-

    29. EL

      No.

    30. AH

      Great, okay.

  15. 1:16:47 – 1:18:35

    Sponsor: Function

    1. AH

      I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function. Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health. This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more. They've also recently added tests for toxins such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFASs or forever chemicals. Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas. For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood. Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification. And I should say by taking a second Function test, that approach worked. Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important. There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test. The problem is, blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated. In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost. It is very affordable. As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman. Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.

  16. 1:18:35 – 1:25:35

    Making Sense of Behavior, Forgiveness, Blame

    1. AH

      I feel like one of the major detriments to living the way that you're describing, um, which by the way has tremendous gravitational pull in my mind, like, it's, it's s- such a better way to go through life, right? Um, and I subscribe also to this notion that pretty much everything was made up besides the laws of nature, right? I mean-... to me, physics is real and, uh, chemistry-

    2. EL

      Okay.

    3. AH

      ... is real. Biology gets, biology is real. It gets tricky because, uh-

    4. EL

      They're, they're all real, but it's our understanding of them that varies.

    5. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    6. EL

      So we haven't worked out all of physics yet.

    7. AH

      Sure.

    8. EL

      Um, you know, or biology or any of these other things. So I don't think that we should set these aside and say, "Those rules, we should follow come hell or high water."

    9. AH

      Right. I mean, um, you know, seeing what may be, like I, I could maybe say, "Listen, uh, because of the laws of gravity, objects fall down, not up." But of course, there, there are-

    10. EL

      But yes, we got-

    11. AH

      ... we could create exceptions to that.

    12. EL

      Exactly.

    13. AH

      But that humans make up all sorts of rules. Culture dictates-

    14. EL

      Right.

    15. AH

      ... groupthink d- dictates, and it seems that one of the major detriments to living in this freer way, this more exploratory way that we're talking about today, is this whole thing of theory of mind.

    16. EL

      Mm-hmm.

    17. AH

      You know, that we are able, for better or worse, to get into the minds of others and in some cases, create ideas, true or not, about how we will be judged if we do A, B, or C. And in doing-

    18. EL

      Oh.

    19. AH

      ... so, we give up, we give up some real estate. We give up some, uh-

    20. EL

      See, that's a... Okay, so that's perfect-

    21. AH

      Yeah.

    22. EL

      ... uh, um, Andrew, because we think we know but are oblivious to the fact that every sing- every single, that's a big statement, behavior can be understood in equal dimensions, equal potency as good or bad.

    23. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    24. EL

      Now, so that I can't control what you're thinking, so you think that I'm gullible. You could persuade me that I'm gullible. I can try my hardest not to be gullible, but I'm going to eventually be gullible. And the reason for that is that I value being trusting.

    25. AH

      Right.

    26. EL

      And as long as I value being trusting, I'm going to be seen as gullible. As long as you value being flexible, you're going to be inconsistent. As long as you value being stable, you're going to be seen as boring, and so on. And so this is what I said to you before in, in, uh, different terms that-

    27. AH

      Right.

    28. EL

      ... with all that I've studied, found, um, found interesting over all these decades, the thing that meant the most to me was the realization that behavior makes sense from the actor's perspective or the actor wouldn't do it. Now, if you think about that, that means every single time you're demeaning somebody or yourself or you're, you're coming up with a New Year's resolution, what you're doing is denying the sense of what you were doing and saying, "Oh, you should have done something different." Okay. Um, once you realize that your behavior makes sense, um, you like yourself more, uh, when you're realizing that, you know, uh... In any relationship, anything that's difficult is difficult because one of you thinks there's a right way and is denying the other person's perspective. We did this thing so many years ago. I gave people a list of, uh, uh, I don't remember if it was 200 or 300 behavior descriptions and said, "Circle those things about yourself that you keep trying to change but you keep failing at." So for me, I'd circle impulsive, um, gullible, and I won't tell you the rest. Okay. Then you turn the page over, and in a mixed up, uh, random order are the positive versions of each of these. Now people are asked, "Circle those things you really value about yourself." My spontaneity and my being trusting. And as long as I value being spontaneous, I'm going to appear impulsive, um, and so on. And so now that I have more respect for myself because what I did made sense, I carry myself differently. Um, I am, I am not doing what you were just suggesting before where I'm tormenting myself and, you know, and so on. Um, and the people I'm with, you know, uh, uh, there's a lot in The Mindful Body that deals with language and only a fraction of the sensitivity I seem to have, um, to language in, in a different way from the way linguists would study it. Um, but you have things, you know, um, let's say forgiveness. We have all these terms that seem good. And you know, because you, you've figured me out now, that if you say it's good, I'm gonna find a way it's bad. If you say-

Episode duration: 3:22:19

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