#1 Blueprint for Mastering Every Conversation (This is How to Communicate with Confidence!)

1. 0:00 – 1:34

   Intro

   1. SPSpeaker0:00

      Arguments are not something to win. The person in front of you isn't fighting you. They are fighting to feel understood by you.

   2. JSJay Shetty0:09

      How do we communicate with someone who doesn't want to communicate with us?

   3. SPSpeaker0:13

      The people who will use silence as a punishment. That, to me, is the number one sign of low emotional intelligence.

   4. JSJay Shetty0:23

      Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. Today's guest is someone that I've been looking forward to having in the seat. Ever since I came across his content on social media, I knew I had to have a conversation with him. Today's guest is Jefferson Fisher, a trial lawyer turned communication expert whose simple, practical tools have helped millions handle conflict with more calm and clarity. Jefferson is known for breaking down the exact words to use in real-life moments when emotions run high. His book, The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More, is already changing the way people navigate arguments, boundaries, and difficult conversations. I'm excited to welcome to On Purpose Jefferson Fisher. Jefferson, it's great to have you here.

   5. SPSpeaker1:10

      Jay, thanks for having me.

   6. JSJay Shetty1:10

      Yeah, I mean it. I really... You know, when I first came across your content, on Instagram I think it was, I just thought it was so clear, it was so concise. And I feel communication is one of these underrated skills that we all use all the time. We all need it in every part of our lives, yet no one taught us how to do it at school-

   7. SPSpeaker1:32

      [laughs]

   8. JSJay Shetty1:32

      ... or, or anywhere.

   9. SPSpeaker1:33

      Yeah.

   10. JSJay Shetty1:33

       And

2. 1:34 – 3:03

   How Good Communication Creates a Life of Peace

   1. JSJay Shetty1:34

      I wanted to ask you, what has communication unlocked for you in your life and for the people that you help in a way that nothing else could?

   2. SPSpeaker1:43

      Mm. It's unlocked a life of peace for me. You know, a lot of people say, "You, you sound very calm." Well, it's because I've been through a lot of hard, and that means a lot of hard communication, a lot of hard conversations. The, the, the greater tolerance I have for difficult conversations, the greater relationships I'm going to have in my life. For me, communication has helped me be a better husband, a better father, a, a better friend in ways that only communication can do. And you're right, we, we go through our whole season of growing up, going to high school, maybe going to college, and all of a sudden you get married, and then you look at the person next to you and go, "Oh, I, I have to, I have to talk to you. I have to talk at work. I have to manage people. How, how do I, how do I do that?" That's a skill of communication. That is, it is learned. It is not just gifted.

   3. JSJay Shetty2:36

      Well, you just said that you are a good communicator because you've had a lot of tough conversations and hard conversations. I think most of us, we avoid tough and hard conversations.

   4. SPSpeaker2:47

      Mm.

   5. JSJay Shetty2:47

      We don't even wanna go there, and we don't wanna get into a tough discussion with our partner, or we don't wanna get into a difficult discussion with our boss. Or we're trying our best to just navigate away from, and we think that's what good communication is.

3. 3:03 – 5:16

   Why Facing Difficult Conversations Changes Everything

   1. JSJay Shetty3:03

      Why would you encourage people to meet difficult and tough conversations head-on?

   2. SPSpeaker3:09

      If you don't, the bill always comes due. The bill always comes due. You're gonna have that difficult conversation at the very end when you're at your wit's end. Or you may never have it at all because there's gonna be something in your life that happened that they're not gonna be here anymore. And what should've been said, that opportunity was, was lost. We avoid the difficult because we avoid the, the angst that we feel. But yet when we choose to have the difficult conversation and we get on the other end of it and realize, "Oh, wait, I... Life didn't fall apart. Oh, wait, I'm still here. Oh, wait, they chose to accept me. Wait, they didn't run away," it's, it's a feeling that, that can't be replaced when you realize you can be more vulnerable with this person, you can go deeper with this person. Think of the people in your life that you are the closest with. They're the people who've seen you're ugly, you know? The hard stuff, the messy stuff. And when you can have that kind of capacity for each other in communication and conversation, you're only going to, to grow.

   3. JSJay Shetty4:06

      Well, I think that's the thing, right? Like, we- the reason we're scared of having a tough conversation is because we're scared of the outcome. And so we've already predicted that, "I don't wanna have that conversation because they're gonna break up with me."

   4. SPSpeaker4:18

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JSJay Shetty4:18

      "I don't wanna have that conversation because then they're gonna know I'm weak. I don't wanna have that conversation because I might get fired or I might get looked over for that promotion." How do we approach tough conversations without an inherent belief of it being a negative result?

   6. SPSpeaker4:35

      It's the understanding that it's not my job to feel somebody else's feelings for them. And that's what you do when you're afraid to disappoint someone. You're afraid to say the hard thing, the, the right thing. You'd rather be nice. You'd rather say the, the thing that sounds good. Those kind of things always have a bitter taste because you realize, "I'm not being real. I'm not being authentic." And before you know it, you've just been people-pleasing. Before you know it, you feel less than yourself. Before you know it, you feel lost and you really don't know who you are. And now you're in your mid-40s and you have a crisis and you go, "What is my purpose on life here? Because I've been living it to serve everybody else's needs, not for what's true and authentic in my life."

   7. JSJay Shetty5:15

      I'm trying to think of someone

4. 5:16 – 7:09

   Your Fear of Upsetting Others Is Valid

   1. JSJay Shetty5:16

      I was speaking to this week. I was, I was speaking to someone and they said they're going through a tough romantic situation-

   2. SPSpeaker5:23

      Mm-hmm

   3. JSJay Shetty5:23

      ... I mean, dating someone, and they're scared that if they share how they feel, they may push the other person away. Talk to me about that.

   4. SPSpeaker5:33

      Number one, it's a valid fear. I'm not gonna say that that fear isn't valid. I think anybody hear that go, "Well, that's certainly understandable." What if they don't? It's always the what if they do. Well, okay. Let's, let's assume that they do. What happens next? If they do, you push them away. What happens? It's, it's seeing that your life isn't going to fall apart. Now, if I come in- into the conversation and I am not trying to s- sugarcoat it, and if I'm not trying to make it to where I'm only saying things to placate you, to, to make you feel good and not being genuine-I've already set up the conversation and I've set up the relationship on fake. I'm just giving you a mask. I'm giving you a character of what I can tell is going to appease you. I, I'm gonna be the, the hero. I'm gonna be the fixer. I'm gonna be the happy one. I'm gonna be the one who's always bubbly and can never be sad. And you, you give them a character when you choose not to be authentic in the conversation. So the, the thought of, you know, if I do this I'm gonna push them away. And if you do, what happens? That's really what the fear is. Am I enough by myself? That's, that's the underlying fear. And when you realize I can be enough without them, all those fears go away.

   5. JSJay Shetty6:51

      Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's what we're all working towards, I feel is-

   6. SPSpeaker6:55

      Yeah. Am I enough?

   7. JSJay Shetty6:56

      Am I enough? And it's so interesting, that's exa- I was talking to that person and I said, "You know, after you have that conversation or whether you choose not to, I think self-love needs to be worked on either way because-

   8. SPSpeaker7:06

      That's right

   9. JSJay Shetty7:06

      ... that, that's at the root of it." What, what do you feel,

5. 7:09 – 10:07

   The Biggest Communication Mistake We All Make

   1. JSJay Shetty7:09

      you've been doing this for some time and you come from the legal world-

   2. SPSpeaker7:12

      Mm-hmm

   3. JSJay Shetty7:13

      ... what's the number one communication mistake you see people making today?

   4. SPSpeaker7:17

      [laughs] The one that I make, too, is you think that what is said is exactly what's heard. Especially in-

   5. JSJay Shetty7:25

      That's good

   6. SPSpeaker7:25

      ... in relationships. How many times in a relationship have they kind of repeated back what you said? "Well, you said meh, meh, meh," and you're, "That's not what I said. I, I didn't sound like that. That's not how I said it." And when you start arguing, they go, "Yeah, you did. Yeah, you did." And they go, "I wish I had this recorded. You know, I, I wish this, I had this on camera-

   7. JSJay Shetty7:44

      [laughs]

   8. SPSpeaker7:44

      ... that you could have seen back how you just spoke to me." And instead we just, we start fighting over how I said it.

   9. JSJay Shetty7:50

      Mm.

   10. SPSpeaker7:52

       The better way to go is to say, "What did you hear? What did, what did you hear? Oh, okay, that's, that's not at all what I meant. Can I, can I have a, let me, let me redo that. That's not at all what I meant." Instead we just, we split the conversation into something that has nothing to do with what you, the original source. So the number one communication, the fault that I see is assuming that what is said is exactly what is heard. When you ask the question what did you hear, whether it's even in business or in relationships, you always get a different perspective that makes the connection that much stronger.

   11. JSJay Shetty8:27

       That is such a great answer. It's such a great answer. I did that, me and my wife did that exact-

   12. SPSpeaker8:32

       [laughs]

   13. JSJay Shetty8:32

       No, we didn't do the exercise as consciously, but we went through that same exact thing recently.

   14. SPSpeaker8:36

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   15. JSJay Shetty8:36

       We were working out in the gym together, we were having a conversation. We heard each other totally differently, misjudged tones. I was, like, being loud because there was music on. She took that as, like, I was a bit, like, you know, uh, a bit triggered or whatever it was. And then we sat down and we talked about it and that's exactly the conversation we had where I was like, "I did not sound like that." [laughs]

   16. SPSpeaker8:57

       [laughs] Right.

   17. JSJay Shetty8:57

       And she was like, "Yeah, you did," like, you know. And she, and you know, and then you, and then you realize that you're so right. You end up splitting the conversation and you end up arguing about something that you weren't even arguing about.

   18. SPSpeaker9:07

       Yes.

   19. JSJay Shetty9:07

       And that's the worst part because you end up creating something that is now an issue that wasn't even an issue in the first place.

   20. SPSpeaker9:14

       Y- absolutely. And it ends up that y- you will prove yourself wrong. I mean, when you say, "No, this is exactly how I said it," w- we don't even really know what our face looks like.

   21. JSJay Shetty9:24

       [laughs]

   22. SPSpeaker9:24

       You know, when we're talking. Unless you're in a mirror the whole time, you, you don't know. And so we, we are terrible judges of our subjective expressions.

   23. JSJay Shetty9:34

       Mm.

   24. SPSpeaker9:35

       They say, "No, I, that's not how I said it. No, I, that's not what I s- that's not how I said it." And they're, "Yes, you did." Yeah. And so that, that is to me, it's ... If you wanna know somebody that has strong emotional intelligence, it's how quick they get to asking for a reset.

   25. JSJay Shetty9:52

       Mm. God.

   26. SPSpeaker9:52

       How quick they get to saying, "That's not my intention. My intention was this." "Ah, okay, I can see that." The quicker that you get to that, that's somebody who says, "I'm okay being wrong."

6. 10:07 – 12:53

   Can You Actually Change Someone’s Mind?

   1. JSJay Shetty10:07

      What does it take for someone who always thinks they're right to open up to the idea that they might be wrong?

   2. SPSpeaker10:12

      The person in front of you isn't fighting you, they're fighting to be understood by you. They're fighting to feel understood by you. When somebody's clammed up and you have to say, "You need to change your opinion. You need to change your opinion. You're right, I'm wrong," that's not gonna happen. Y- you can't just wish for that. Instead, if I were to say to you, "Listen, I'm not here to change your mind, Jay. This is what I believe," you hear how just me saying that all of a sudden opens up that curiosity of, "Well, maybe I do wanna change my mind."

   3. JSJay Shetty10:45

      Mm.

   4. SPSpeaker10:45

      "I don't really know." But if I were to say, "How, how can you possibly think that? You, you really think that that person is the person you should be voting for? You think that..." And as soon as I get into criticism, the more I tell you that you're wrong, the more convinced you'll be that you're right. Because most likely, if I want you to change your mind and I say that you're wrong about something, Jay, I'm not just saying you're wrong, I'm saying that your wife's wrong, your dad's wrong, your parents are wrong, your grandmother is wrong. That thing that you went to when you were a kid that was a big crystallizing moment in your life that, that set your belief system is all wrong. And it's become part of your identity. And so instead of me fighting, I think I'm fighting an opinion, I'm not, I'm fighting now your identity. And people will go to the ends of the earth, they will close off everything, they will box their ears to prevent having to change one second of their identity. Why? Because that change feels extremely scary. That's why evidence doesn't work. When you show people statistics on things, "How, how can you possibly believe this?" And they go, "I, I just... No, it doesn't matter." It, they will justify it, they will flip it, they will find w- find ways to, to take what supports them or reject anything that, that doesn't. It's because it's now part of their i- identity. So if you wanna change somebody's mind, number one, you have to validate them. Two, you can't argue against their identity. You have to argue against the value. You have to find the value, speak to the value.And three, understand that one conversation is generally not enough. If you want somebody to change their mind, it takes years, it takes months, and the bigger the belief, the more time it's gonna take.

   5. JSJay Shetty12:29

      Mm. Yeah. I, I, I couldn't agree more. I think... I'm sure you hear this a lot as well. I hear a lot of people, especially people who would read our books, listen to our conversations, follow us on social media. A lot of people wanna have conversations with their partners-

   6. SPSpeaker12:44

      Mm

   7. JSJay Shetty12:44

      ... or their parents or a sibling, but they don't find that that person wants to communicate about that topic or theme or subject.

   8. SPSpeaker12:51

      Yeah.

   9. JSJay Shetty12:52

      So

7. 12:53 – 16:41

   How to Reach Someone Who Refuses to Communicate

   1. JSJay Shetty12:53

      how do we communicate with someone who doesn't want to communicate with us? Because often that could be our partner, our parent, or someone that we love deeply-

   2. SPSpeaker13:04

      Yeah

   3. JSJay Shetty13:04

      ... and we wanna talk to them about something meaningful, but they don't really even wanna engage. Is it possible?

   4. SPSpeaker13:10

      It's possible. I get a lot of questions of people who are estranged from usually adult children. There's, you know, their 30-year-old son doesn't wanna talk to his mom or a, a daughter who doesn't wanna talk to her dad, and they haven't spoken in three years. And every time I have that kind of conversation, it, it, it breaks my heart because you can tell, and look at this parent, they want to have a conversation with their child. And you know, deep down, so does that, that child, they need that relationship. How do you, how do you crack that code? What I have found most successful and what I teach them is I begin with saying, "I know, I'm not, and I'm open." And it sounds like this: "I know there's distance between us. I know things aren't how we both want them to be. I know I've messed up." Whatever that is, I... You, you're saying what is a given. Two is I'm not. "I'm not asking you to change your mind. I'm not asking for an apology. I'm not asking for..." whatever it is. What they think that's what you're after. And three is, "I'm open. I'm open to a conversation. I'm open and I'm o- I'm open to listening. I'm open and I'm open to understanding." Whenever you can just crack the door open of saying, "The conversation is here," and sometimes that's not enough. They're not gonna do it. And in that case, what I like to say is then you have to live out the conversation and understand that if you can't be a bridge, be a lighthouse. You know, if I, if they don't wanna come across to me and they've burned the bridge, well, then they're at least gonna know where I am, and they're gonna know what I stand for, and they're gonna see the light that I- I'm gonna try to bring, even if they don't wanna talk.

   5. JSJay Shetty14:57

      "I know. I'm not. I'm open."

   6. SPSpeaker14:59

      Yeah.

   7. JSJay Shetty15:00

      I really like that.

   8. SPSpeaker15:01

      Yeah.

   9. JSJay Shetty15:01

      I, I really, really like that, especially the I'm not.

   10. SPSpeaker15:04

       Right. Exactly.

   11. JSJay Shetty15:04

       I feel like that's such an important one because I feel like half the time it's like, "I kn- I know we're not where we wanna be, but I'd love it if you..." [chuckles] Right?

   12. SPSpeaker15:14

       You got it. Yeah, exactly.

   13. JSJay Shetty15:16

       Yeah. Yeah.

   14. SPSpeaker15:16

       They're waiting for the, you know, "I know there's distance, but you just," you know-

   15. JSJay Shetty15:19

       Yeah

   16. SPSpeaker15:19

       ... and they're expecting who's gonna apologize first.

   17. JSJay Shetty15:22

       Yeah.

   18. SPSpeaker15:22

       I think that that for relationships and family, you know, the hard stuff, it becomes this petty fight over, "Well, I'm not doing anything till they apologize." And well, okay, you do it at your own peril. Then s- then say goodbye to it. Say goodbye to it because they both dug in their heels and nobody's gonna change unless somebody decides to do something different.

   19. JSJay Shetty15:44

       Mm-hmm.

   20. SPSpeaker15:45

       And when you can just change the narrative by 1% and say, "I'm gonna go off on a ledge and do something different," I've seen more relationships come back together. I've seen more people come back and say, "Thank you so much. I... We're actually gonna meet up for coffee. She's coming to Christmas this year. Oh my gosh." Like that... What, what is life not about, if not that?

   21. JSJay Shetty16:07

       I really hope everyone who's listening and watching, you know, tries that out.

   22. SPSpeaker16:11

       But you do that so well. You know, I've seen that with... You'll say, "When's the last time you talked to somebody? Grab your phone. Call 'em. Call 'em now."

   23. JSJay Shetty16:19

       Yeah.

   24. SPSpeaker16:20

       "Call 'em now. Why, why wait? What, do you have to wait to be ready? Call 'em now." And when you choose to s- do something different, you choose to be the first, they say, "Oh, I, you know, I'm tired of being the bigger person." Well, that's, that's life.

   25. JSJay Shetty16:32

       Mm.

   26. SPSpeaker16:32

       Y- you... Then you, then you do it with the understanding that things are not going to be different unless something is different.

   27. JSJay Shetty16:39

       Yeah. Yeah, I always, I always come

8. 16:41 – 21:24

   Winning Arguments Should Never Be the Goal

   1. JSJay Shetty16:41

      back to what is the outcome that I want.

   2. SPSpeaker16:43

      Yeah.

   3. JSJay Shetty16:44

      Like, if the outcome I want is for this person to know how I feel, then I might have to be the bigger person. I might have to be first.

   4. SPSpeaker16:51

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JSJay Shetty16:52

      I might have to be apologetic. I might have to be more compassionate.

   6. SPSpeaker16:56

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JSJay Shetty16:57

      But if that serves my ultimate goal, which is this person knows how I feel, then I should be willing to become anything.

   8. SPSpeaker17:03

      That's right.

   9. JSJay Shetty17:04

      But if my goal is to set a boundary and not let someone cross it-

   10. SPSpeaker17:09

       Right

   11. JSJay Shetty17:10

       ... then I may actually even have to become more guarded. I may have to become more reserved.

   12. SPSpeaker17:14

       That's right.

   13. JSJay Shetty17:14

       I may have to, I'll have to become all these other things, and then you say, "Oh, but I don't wanna be reserved." But it's like, but that serves your goal.

   14. SPSpeaker17:19

       A- absolutely.

   15. JSJay Shetty17:20

       And, and so you've gotta know what your objective is or what your, what your goal is of any conversation. I know you talk about how winning is never the goal of any argument-

   16. SPSpeaker17:30

       Mm-hmm

   17. JSJay Shetty17:30

       ... even though that's what we all think.

   18. SPSpeaker17:32

       Yeah, especially being a, an attorney, people are like, "Isn't that what you're supposed to do?"

   19. JSJay Shetty17:37

       [laughs]

   20. SPSpeaker17:37

       And it's, that's just not the, that's not the truth. It, it's not like it is on TV. You, you will lose cases. In fact, if you haven't tried... If you haven't lost a case, you haven't tried enough cases-

   21. JSJay Shetty17:47

       Mm

   22. SPSpeaker17:47

       ... is what they say in the, in the attorney world. Because I can't, I can't choose the law that applies. I can't choose my client's facts. You have to play the cards that, that you're dealt. But how I advocate it is different. What I teach is arguments are not something to win, they're something to unravel. You find knots in conversations. In law, there's this thing called the jury instructions, meaning at the very end of the trial, let's say you've, you've had two weeks' worth of evidence. You had openings, all, all your, your motions, and you're finally at the end, and the jury's about to go back.And make a decision on something. They have a document called the jury instructions, and it's written out who's responsible, this person, this person. They do this, yes or no. They add percentages. They might add money, whatever it is. It is this document that controls the ultimate outcome of the entire case. And good attorneys start with the jury instructions when they first get a new file. Bad attorneys wait till the very end. Same way in relationships. Like you mentioned, if I know where the goal is, everything else becomes fluff. Everything else becomes irrelevant. So what if they said that thing two years ago that you could bring up? So what if they, you know, said it a way that they rolled their eyes? Can, can you have a little bit more emotional resilience to understand what's happening in that moment, to not be clouded by the forest, uh, you know, the trees through the forest, to be able to see what's happening in real life? So start with your end. Have a goal for the conversation and, and make sure... If I, if I could say with you, let's say you and I are off, and I say, "Jay, I, I, I know we're about to have a difficult conversation, and I want you to know I'm gonna be in it here with you." I mean, how encouraged do you feel of knowing I'm not trying to abandon you in it? I'm not trying to push something at you? And when you are able to slow it down and see arguments as not something to win but something to unravel, you find so much more in the connection.

   23. JSJay Shetty19:48

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9. 21:24 – 23:27

   What to Do When Your Partner Triggers You

   1. JSJay Shetty21:24

      been with someone for long enough, they're gonna end up saying something that will trigger you or that will get to you.

   2. SPSpeaker21:29

      Undoubtedly. [laughs]

   3. JSJay Shetty21:30

      Yeah, undoubtedly. If you've been with someone, someone long enough.

   4. SPSpeaker21:32

      Yeah. Yeah.

   5. JSJay Shetty21:33

      When your partner says something that triggers you-

   6. SPSpeaker21:35

      Mm-hmm

   7. JSJay Shetty21:36

      ... what do you do?

   8. SPSpeaker21:37

      You tell them in a way that communicates it, that it sinks in. If something is said to me by Sierra and it, it triggers me, one is there is a mindset to me in, in any relationship that you have to have that says, "This is a place where I can be messy. This is a place where I, I don't have to be my best. Of all the places to be, this should be the safest for me." Now, if it's intentional, this person meant to trigger you, th-then what I like to do is ask the question, "Did you mean? Did you mean for that to upset me? Did you mean for that to hurt me?" You, you find out real quick if they really did, because sometimes people say things they, they don't mean. Not sometimes. They always do. You know? And if you find that you, you can't even slow down enough to have the discussion of, "This is what hurt me. You know that this triggers me," I think there's also a difference of if they know that it does and they're using it as a weapon, well, that breaches trust, versus they didn't know it and now you need to explain why this, this reminds you of that time when you were a kid that is setting you off and you're not really sure how to, how to deal with it. So when it comes to being triggered, you first have to slow everything down. Means I'm gonna talk slower. I'm going to lower my volume rather than getting amped up, and I'm gonna let them know that something else is coming up for me more than what you said. And if you're in a committed relationship that they want to understand you, that's a conversation you're going to have.

   9. JSJay Shetty23:11

      And I think the natural reaction when someone says something that triggers us is either to say something that triggers them back-

   10. SPSpeaker23:17

       Yeah

   11. JSJay Shetty23:17

       ... even if it was unconscious in the first place, or we kind of rush to defend ourselves-

   12. SPSpeaker23:23

       Mm-hmm

   13. JSJay Shetty23:23

       ... which seem like very natural human instincts. How

10. 23:27 – 27:33

    The Patience Required to Create Real Connection

    1. JSJay Shetty23:27

       do we build that slowness, that patience, that stillness that's required to actually create connection as opposed to do the human thing, which is defend ourselves and-

    2. SPSpeaker23:36

       Right

    3. JSJay Shetty23:37

       ... prove our worth and show we're right?

    4. SPSpeaker23:38

       Yeah.

    5. JSJay Shetty23:39

       How do, how do we even get into that pocket?

    6. SPSpeaker23:41

       Your first word has to be your breath in those moments. When somebody says something we don't like, we [inhales] and we get up like that. We, we suck it in, but we don't let it out. Instead, our, our breath comes out when we're yelling or we're raising our voice. When s- when you start to yell and somebody says, "You're yelling," and you go, "I'm not yelling," because you know deep down that's exactly what you're doing. If you find that you don't know how to slow it down, it's your breath. Your breath always comes first so that you can actually [inhales] breathe. And there's a difference between if you say something that's hurtful, and I immediately go, "Me? [scoffs] Okay, Jay. [scoffs] What about you? You, you don't remember that time that you... You really wanna... You're gonna... [scoffs] That's, that's rich. That's funny. You, you wanna say this to me?" And I start right at you.Versus if I give it five to seven seconds of nothing, meaning I'm gonna breathe, and I'm just gonna let your words fall to the ground as if I go, "You sure you're good with that? That, that what you said? Is that what you really wanna say?" Because people don't like to hear their, their words echo in that silence. I've seen it countless times where the person who said the hurtful thing, and you know what? I've been that person, too, where you say or they say, "I, I, I shouldn't have said that" before you have to say anything. Um, what I, what I meant to say was, or, or that, that was too far. That's allowing you to look more controlled and more confident in that conversation, and all of a sudden when it's like this instead of it slowly begins like this, just by the silence of understanding, hearing their words echo back withdraws that, that sting. It do- it never stings as bad.

    7. JSJay Shetty25:31

       Yeah. I like the, uh, let your breath become your first word. That's great.

    8. SPSpeaker25:35

       Yeah.

    9. JSJay Shetty25:35

       And it's such a ... It feels like, again, it keeps going back to that idea of if you think every conversation, and you write about this right at the beginning of the book, if you think every conversation is about winning and about being right, the goal is so skewed-

    10. SPSpeaker25:51

        Yeah

    11. JSJay Shetty25:52

        ... that you can't possibly take a breath because to you, you're just losing.

    12. SPSpeaker25:56

        Right.

    13. JSJay Shetty25:56

        Take a breath is just losing time. It's losing-

    14. SPSpeaker25:59

        Yes

    15. JSJay Shetty25:59

        ... energy. It's losing momentum. It's, it's just losing. And so again, it goes back down to how do... We need to really reframe our mindset to say, "Not every conversation is about winning and being right. Conversations are about understanding and seeing someone and connecting and finding a common ground," and it's just not how we're wired.

    16. SPSpeaker26:19

        No, it's, it's not how we're wired. It, it takes discipline. It takes real discipline. When I hear people take a breath before they respond, I know what's about to come out is, has a much more heavy-

    17. JSJay Shetty26:33

        Mm

    18. SPSpeaker26:34

        ... footing to it.

    19. JSJay Shetty26:34

        Mm.

    20. SPSpeaker26:35

        If you were to just ask me, you know, "How was your day?" or "How are you doing?" I'm like, "Good. I'm good. [laughs] I'm great. Everything's good" And I have that quick response. And if you instead were to ask me, "How was your day?" And I went, [inhales] "I'm good. Yeah, I'm good." Now, what's the difference? Same thing. I just, I used my breath.

    21. JSJay Shetty26:57

        Mm-hmm.

    22. SPSpeaker26:57

        I slowed it down. I calm my nervous system, and, uh, as a secondary benefit, I also calm down yours.

    23. JSJay Shetty27:04

        Yeah.

    24. SPSpeaker27:04

        And so most of the time when you feel that rise coming, you have to slow down the conversation so the, the... To me, the hotter the fire burns, the more you have to, to spread out the coals-

    25. JSJay Shetty27:16

        Mm-hmm

    26. SPSpeaker27:16

        ... because it's slowing it down, even asking, "Can we, can we slow this down for a second? Can I take a, a moment just to... I, I'm, I'm here with you. I just need a second to, to think." What follows after is never how it sounded before.

11. 27:33 – 32:05

    How Should I Respond to the Silent Treatment?

    1. JSJay Shetty27:33

       If your partner is giving you the silent treatment, how do you engage?

    2. SPSpeaker27:37

       Depends if the silent treatment is there for a reason.

    3. JSJay Shetty27:40

       Mm.

    4. SPSpeaker27:41

       Some people you, you kinda have to do the, the, the gray rock on, that they, they're... You can't be- You can't reason with them. So I'm not saying that silent treatment is, is not there for a good reason sometimes. But let's say it's there to hurt you. You know, people who will use silence as a punishment. They, they're upset you did something, and they just go, "Oh, okay. I'm just not gonna talk to you anymore." Th- that to me is the number one sign of low emotional intelligence, is if you can't even have the ability to say, "I need to take a break for a second because that really upset me. I'll text you this afternoon. I'll text you tomorrow. I'll call you tomorrow," versus just ghosting.

    5. JSJay Shetty28:28

       Mm.

    6. SPSpeaker28:28

       Just... Because what it does is it puts the other person in the position of trying to beg, trying to plead, and then what happens to that other person, they desperately want you to communicate, so what do they do? Most of the time they say something super flagrant, like a bad foul. They, they say something that is really harsh just in hopes that you come back in. That, that's it. They just want that text back. "Okay, he's still there. He still reads my texts. He's still whatever it is." And so if you really are s- somebody who's, you're trying to get through the silent treatment, respond to, "I see that you're giving me the silent treatment. I see that you've gone quiet on me. I'm going to give you space. I'm ready to have the conversation when you are." Now, there's a difference of somebody taking an hour to get back with you, taking five days to get back with you. Well, that's something different. That's, that's somebody who has chosen not to be connected. Because if I really want a conversation with you or, or real relationship with you, I'm not gonna put you in the position of begging.

    7. JSJay Shetty29:25

       Mm. That's such a great note, that if someone wants to be in a relationship with you, they'll never put you in a position of begging.

    8. SPSpeaker29:33

       Never. They'll, they'll always stay interested. You know, it's, it's like we've... For people who are married, let's say, or in a, a big relationship, it starts with me being very interested in you. I, I'm gonna wanna know your favorite color. I'm gonna wanna know what you like to eat, what you like to wear. I wanna know about your, your family. I wanna know all these things about you. I'm so interested. Why? 'Cause I want to understand you. And then we get happy, and then we f- just, it becomes a measure of how good can I feel with you in the good. And then you get married, and it's better. It's for better or worse, right? And then you just realize, "I don't really like this worse part. I really, [laughs] I really just like the better part." And all of a sudden you realize that things get hard, and you're in year seven of your marriage, in year 14 of your marriage, and you feel further drifted apart 'cause really you became less interested-

    9. JSJay Shetty30:24

       Yeah

    10. SPSpeaker30:25

        ... in them. You didn't get interested in the hard. You were just interested in what was the basics. You were good with the basic facts. You weren't good for the, the deep stuff. Y- you were... It gets to be where-If you really want to know and test the strength of a relationship, it's not the measure of how good do I feel in the good times, it's how long can I sit with them in the hard times?

    11. JSJay Shetty30:53

        Mm.

    12. SPSpeaker30:55

        And when I can sit with you in what is the deep struggle, when we're both crying, when we're both three hours into the argument and going, "I don't understand why I can't communicate with you. I, I don't- how did I ever like you in the first place?" That's real, that's raw, and if I can still sit with you in it, that- that's a type of connection that y- that will last forever. It's, you know, I, I, I talk to so many couples, and even older couples, of, you know, "How do you, how do you do it with communicating? How do you, how do you do communication so well?" It's never, "We have really big conversations."

    13. JSJay Shetty31:34

        [laughs]

    14. SPSpeaker31:34

        You know, it's never that. It's w- we know that things are going to be hard, and we choose to stick through the hard. People give up too easily. I mean, you, you're married, I'm married. It's... They're a fight. They, they are an absolute fight. Not between each other, but for the relationship. It's the relationship versus everything else: attention, time, obligations, finances, kids. It's the relationship versus everybody else.

    15. JSJay Shetty32:04

        Is there anything

12. 32:05 – 34:01

    The Clearest Sign Someone Doesn’t Truly Care

    1. JSJay Shetty32:05

       someone can ever say that shows you they're not your person?

    2. SPSpeaker32:10

       "I don't care about you." If they really don't have an interest in caring about you. If, if you hear that I'm upset, or you hear that your wife's upset, you should care. I'm not talking about the surface level like, "Okay, I don't care about that right now." I'm talking about the deep, "It does not affect me." When you're on the ground and upset and face on the floor and you're crying, and it doesn't affect you because you don't care, that to me is they're not your, they're not your person. If you want to know if somebody is your person, have they asked how you're doing? I've seen so many people go on dates or have relationships and they say, "Yeah, they, they were nice, but I don't think they ever really asked about me. They just talked about themselves," is they just needed to, you know, rent an ear for a little bit because they just made it all about themselves. Those are people that you know are not gonna be your people. If you want to know if they are your person, you don't have to ask them, "Why don't you ask about me?" They will naturally want to know more about you. You don't have to ask. I had this one time where she, uh, a, a woman asked me, "You know, I went on a date and he really didn't, uh, ask about me, you know, that much. I'm not really sure what to do." I said, "Don't go on another date." [laughs]

    3. JSJay Shetty33:38

       [laughs]

    4. SPSpeaker33:38

       Like, if, if they're not going to just ask about you and the basics, uh, how could they ever want to know about you when things are hard? When they will be hard. There's no getting, uh, getting around it. It- they will be hard. That's, that's how you know if they, they are your person. They're willing to have the deep, hard conversation.

    5. JSJay Shetty34:00

       How do

13. 34:01 – 38:44

    When a Relationship May Be Beyond Repair

    1. JSJay Shetty34:01

       you know if your relationship just has so many arguments that it's beyond saving? How do you know that it's gone too far?

    2. SPSpeaker34:09

       When you look back and the other person is 10 miles behind you.

    3. JSJay Shetty34:14

       Explain that.

    4. SPSpeaker34:15

       When you're doing it alone. That you've read all the books, you've read all the materials, you're listening to all the podcasts. You might be listening to this episode and going, "I desperately wanna heal my marriage, my relationship. I don't know what to do." Because most likely they're the only ones with an oar in their hand trying to paddle, and the other person is just in the back with their arms folded. "I don't really r- I don't wanna be here." "Does it not bother you that we are in conflict right now?" "I don't, I mean, I don't, I don't really care. It's really your fault." And they feel like they're the only ones that are there. These people that it doesn't matter what technique you do, it doesn't matter how much you push, they are someone that will never try and reach for you.

    5. JSJay Shetty34:59

       Mm.

    6. SPSpeaker34:59

       So how do you know when it's enough? That you've put out your hand and they're unwilling to take it.

    7. JSJay Shetty35:06

       Mm.

    8. SPSpeaker35:07

       And you just look back in the rear view mirror and they're okay with leaving it.

    9. JSJay Shetty35:12

       Mm. Yeah, and I think the hard part is sometimes people show these glimpses of or rays of hope, and then you believe that, and then they go back to being the way they were.

    10. SPSpeaker35:24

        Yeah.

    11. JSJay Shetty35:24

        And they kind of oscillate between showing you they care momentarily, but then going back to not caring, and it's so hard to know which one to invest in and which one to believe.

    12. SPSpeaker35:36

        Mm-hmm. I think that the more honest of a conversation you can have with that person-

    13. JSJay Shetty35:41

        Yeah

    14. SPSpeaker35:42

        ... the more honest reflection of what kind of relationship you have. Like we talked about at the beginning, Jay, if, if I can't have the hard conversation with you, then how deep is our relationship?

    15. JSJay Shetty35:53

        Mm-hmm.

    16. SPSpeaker35:54

        You know, if... L- look at the relationship itself. If it's, if it's only surface level conversations, I'll show you a surface level relationship. But if you're willing to have the hard talks, no, I can show you a much deeper relationship. Uh, what's your capacity for the difficult? And yeah, people will show you the glimpses in conversation of, "Oh, there's that person. There's that person that I, I like," and then it's gone. Well, that's because it's, it's only a side effect. It, it's, it's not the main symptom.

    17. JSJay Shetty36:22

        Yeah.

    18. SPSpeaker36:23

        They are, they're only putting on the show to keep you entertained. They are... It's like a slot machine, you know? They just wanna keep you addicted just for a little bit longer. And you have to look back and go, "What am I, what am I getting from this in real time? What am I truly getting from this? Am IAm I enough just by myself?

    19. JSJay Shetty36:44

        Mm.

    20. SPSpeaker36:45

        I think that's the deeper issue of feeling, "If I don't have this person, who am I?"

    21. JSJay Shetty36:49

        Yeah. And that's why we don't say how we feel. It's why we mold who we are. It's why we tolerate bad behavior and bad words and bad communication, because we don't feel like we're fulfilled without them.

    22. SPSpeaker37:01

        Yeah.

    23. JSJay Shetty37:01

        And so we'd rather have a painful existence with them than a potentially painful or long-term non-painful existence without them.

    24. SPSpeaker37:10

        Mm-hmm.

    25. JSJay Shetty37:10

        And I appreciate what you're saying because it shows that there are real ramifications and consequences to poor communication.

    26. SPSpeaker37:20

        Yeah.

    27. JSJay Shetty37:20

        Because I think a lot of us will just tolerate and elongate those periods, hoping things will just get better or go away. But the reality is that people don't change their communication patterns that quickly.

    28. SPSpeaker37:33

        Yeah.

    29. JSJay Shetty37:34

        And that's a harsh reality. It's a harsh truth.

    30. SPSpeaker37:37

        Things don't change if things don't change. You know, I, I know that when you have those moments where you go, "I, I wish things were, were different in our communication," yeah, it takes, that takes time. That takes real raw vulnerability. It is my belief that, that love is self-disclosure. If I really want you to know me, I'm gonna disclose everything, and if I want to know you, I need you to disclose every- I need radical honesty in this relationship to know that I'm never gonna be too much. They need to know. My wife needs to know. She's never gonna be too much. And when you can create the element of safety in conversation, you, you create a relationship that can be impenetrable-
14. 38:44 – 40:50

    Why Radical Honesty Strengthens Relationships

    1. JSJay Shetty38:44

       Yeah. Yeah. You m- you made me think of a moment where sometimes if we're, if we're doing an interview or maybe even if we're talking or talking to a friend and-

    2. SPSpeaker38:51

       Yeah

    3. JSJay Shetty38:52

       ... my w- and someone will ask us about our relationship, and my wife will sometimes be like, "Oh, I can be a lot." Like she, as in she's talking about herself.

    4. SPSpeaker38:58

       Yeah, yeah.

    5. JSJay Shetty38:58

       And she'll be like, "Oh, I can be a lot. I can be too much sometimes." And my honest reaction is, "You are not a lot at all."

    6. SPSpeaker39:03

       [chuckles]

    7. JSJay Shetty39:04

       Uh, and, and she'll be like, "No, no, I can be" And now, now we get into an argument.

    8. SPSpeaker39:08

       [laughs]

    9. JSJay Shetty39:08

       But I'm like, "Well, no, you're not a lot."

    10. SPSpeaker39:09

        "Yes, I am. Yes, I am too much."

    11. JSJay Shetty39:10

        Yeah. She's like, "Yes, I am."

    12. SPSpeaker39:11

        Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

    13. JSJay Shetty39:11

        And I'm like, "No, you're not." And, and it reminds me, because it's, it's that same thing, like I appreciate her because I don't think she's a lot.

    14. SPSpeaker39:18

        Yeah.

    15. JSJay Shetty39:18

        Like there's, there's not a moment where I'm like, "Oh, you're, you're being too much."

    16. SPSpeaker39:22

        Right.

    17. JSJay Shetty39:23

        Because you're right. I want her to be herself with me-

    18. SPSpeaker39:27

        Yes

    19. JSJay Shetty39:27

        ... what, with what she's going through, and trust that she can share that and express that.

    20. SPSpeaker39:33

        That's how you know that-

    21. JSJay Shetty39:34

        Yeah

    22. SPSpeaker39:34

        ... they're your person.

    23. JSJay Shetty39:35

        Yeah, yeah.

    24. SPSpeaker39:35

        When they're not too much-

    25. JSJay Shetty39:37

        Yeah

    26. SPSpeaker39:37

        ... for you.

    27. JSJay Shetty39:38

        Yeah.

    28. SPSpeaker39:38

        You know, you have capacity for all the range of everything that they are, will be, and what they have to offer.

    29. JSJay Shetty39:45

        Mm.

    30. SPSpeaker39:46

        You know, their strengths as well as their weaknesses, especially the weaknesses, because you and I, we have many.
15. 40:50 – 43:22

    When Your Partner Can’t Handle the Hard Conversations

    1. JSJay Shetty40:50

       healthy repair conversation look like? So if you're gonna repair with someone 'cause you said something you don't mean, or someone's gonna repair with you saying something because they said something they don't mean-

    2. SPSpeaker41:00

       Mm-hmm

    3. JSJay Shetty41:01

       ... what should that conversation sound like from their end or yours based on who did the mistake?

    4. SPSpeaker41:06

       99% of the time our arguments are not what we're arguing about. They are about the hidden need, the need to feel understood, the need to feel heard, the need to feel safe by that other person. And things go so south when I pick up the frustration or I pick up the reaction. I'm not listening to the need. Every one of us, ourselves included, we go into conversations with these hidden fears of, am I enough?

    5. JSJay Shetty41:38

       Mm-hmm.

    6. SPSpeaker41:38

       Am I enough if I get it wrong? Am I enough if I look scared, or I don't know what to do, or I don't know what to say, or, uh, will I be abandoned? Are they not going to want me, or do they not really care? We, we come into every single time to one of these conversations, and if I'm just responding to the reaction rather than addressing the need, there's always going to be a mismatch. There's always gonna be conflict that is now corrosive to the very fabric of the conversation. Like say for example, in, in a relationship, somebody goes, "Do you even, do you even care? Like, I don't even know. Do you even care?" And w- what does the guy... They go, "Oh, this again? Really? Do I care?"

    7. JSJay Shetty42:17

       Yeah.

    8. SPSpeaker42:17

       Like, "Okay, this. Okay, this is so stupid." And what you're doing, you're, you're tearing the very fabric of the relationship when you are dismissive over how there is a real feeling. So when somebody is sharing that kind of question with you, and you treat them as if that question is real, because it is, you change everything. H- how do you model repair? That, you model it by saying, "I can totally see how you'd think that. I can see how you'd be frustrated. You know, if, if that's the way you heard it, I, I don't blame you for being upset about it. Of course you'd be upset about that."It sounds like, "That sounds really frustrating."

    9. JSJay Shetty42:54

       Mm.

    10. SPSpeaker42:55

        "That sounds scary. I get the feeling you f- you feel really hopeless right now." And it's like, "Yes, that is exactly how I'm feeling." You just, you, you want somebody to understand-

    11. JSJay Shetty43:05

        Mm

    12. SPSpeaker43:05

        ... how you're doing. I don't need to agree with you to understand you. I don't need to fix the problem to meet the need. I just need to slow down long enough to put aside the frustration and the reaction and see the wound.

    13. JSJay Shetty43:21

        It's so clear

16. 43:22 – 47:12

    The Small Moments Where Repair Gets Missed

    1. JSJay Shetty43:22

       that if we simply went into every conversation, or the next conversation, just trying to understand, how much would be solved.

    2. SPSpeaker43:30

       Yeah.

    3. JSJay Shetty43:31

       Because like you said, everyone's just trying to get you to understand them, whether they're shouting. There's that beautiful statement that I love from Russell Barkley where he said that the people that need the most love will ask for it in the most unloving ways.

    4. SPSpeaker43:46

       Mm. That's right. It's, it's slowing down the moment to say, what do they need right now that they don't have the words to ask for?

    5. JSJay Shetty43:55

       Mm.

    6. SPSpeaker43:56

       What are they asking for that they don't have the words to say? And when I can stop and say, "What is happening here?" Uh, you think ... Like, I have ... Uh, we have two kids. All right? Seven and five. And when my son, who's seven, was let's say three, right? And, and if he was crying, yelling, throwing something, yelling no, uh, throwing a fit, y- you think I was going, "I cannot believe that you're raising your voice right now. I c- are, are you kidding? You're crying at me. Can you b- uh, uh," like, "You ... Do you not see all the things I'm doing?" No. I, I go, "Oh, he's hungry. He's upset. He's scared. You know, he's, he's sleepy. It's, it's his bedtime." It's the same thing. It's the same basic human needs in every single one of us. It is, I will shout it to the rooftop, they are not fighting you, they are fighting to feel understood by you. And when you can address that understanding by using words of repair, everything changes. Repair, validation. Validation is not weakness. It is repair, and that, that's the measure of a true relationship. How q- quick can I get to repair? Relationships don't fall apart because of one big failure. They fall apart because of the hundred micro moments where repair could have happened, but it didn't.

    7. JSJay Shetty45:16

       Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. These little cracks-

    8. SPSpeaker45:19

       Yeah

    9. JSJay Shetty45:20

       ... they accumulate.

    10. SPSpeaker45:20

        There's fissures.

    11. JSJay Shetty45:21

        Yeah.

    12. SPSpeaker45:21

        It's the paper cuts that-

    13. JSJay Shetty45:22

        Yeah

    14. SPSpeaker45:22

        ... y- you go five years, 10 years, 30 years, and you look back and go, "But there's just been so much. How can I possibly address it?" There wasn't b- some big moment. It's all these little moments for repair that-

    15. JSJay Shetty45:34

        Mm

    16. SPSpeaker45:35

        ... you just chose to, to go by. That's why every single one is, is truly important. So when you get dismissive and go, "Really? This? Oh, here we go again. Here she goes," y- you're just... You're choosing to not repair. And if you understand and sign, can sign your name to a piece of paper that says, "I'm choosing my frustration over her peace," sign your name to it. If you can sign that with a straight face and give it to her, then congratulations, you've, you've lost the relationship.

    17. JSJay Shetty46:06

        Mm.

    18. SPSpeaker46:06

        That's what, that's what you're doing.

    19. JSJay Shetty46:08

        Yeah.

    20. SPSpeaker46:08

        You're signing your name away to the end of it.

    21. JSJay Shetty46:10

        I wanted to talk a bit about parenting, because you mentioned it earlier with estranged family members-

    22. SPSpeaker46:15

        Yeah

    23. JSJay Shetty46:15

        ... and things like that. One of the biggest interactions people experience with their parents is feeling judged. So a lot of the communication that parents have, if people don't have great relationships, or even if they do, is judgment. Like, it may even be in their tone. "Oh, did you see what so-and-so's doing?" Like, they just, you know, got married or they got a new promotion.

    24. SPSpeaker46:35

        Yeah.

    25. JSJay Shetty46:36

        Or, or it may just be like, "Oh, are you, are you still with that same guy?" Like, are you...

    26. SPSpeaker46:40

        Right.

    27. JSJay Shetty46:40

        You know, and it's... And I think this feeling of judgment is the opposite of understanding.

    28. SPSpeaker46:45

        Yes.

    29. JSJay Shetty46:45

        When you judge someone, it's saying, "I already know you. I, I'm already seeing you a certain way-

    30. SPSpeaker46:50

        Yes
17. 47:12 – 53:40

    Do You Feel Judged by Your Parents?

    1. JSJay Shetty47:12

       with people that we love and we know love us, but we can't keep feeling that judgment?

    2. SPSpeaker47:20

       Different level of boundaries that need to be applied. One is the boundary of time and space. If it's something that's really bad, I'm not gonna be at the family reunion for four hours. I'm gonna go, say hi, and leave when I need to leave.

    3. JSJay Shetty47:34

       Distance is okay.

    4. SPSpeaker47:35

       Yeah, distance is okay if that's what's required for you. Certain topics of conversation not gonna be in the cards for you, and that's okay. The second is at least if you can acknowledge that for parents, now that I am one, judgment is a poor way of showing love and care. That's, that's the deeper rooted feeling-

    5. JSJay Shetty47:59

       Mm

    6. SPSpeaker47:59

       ... is I, I desperately want to make sure you're okay. I desperately-

    7. JSJay Shetty48:02

       Say that again.

    8. SPSpeaker48:03

       Yeah, yeah.

    9. JSJay Shetty48:03

       Say that again, 'cause that is so good.

    10. SPSpeaker48:05

        That judgment is a very poor substitute for love and care, because that's the deeper need. "Well, shouldn't you... Y- you know, you, you really should do this. You really should do... Uh, haven't you seen what so-and-so is doing?" It's, it's deep care for you and how you are. Even though it's, it's what they would want, it doesn't mean that matches what you want. And that's, that's the major riff right there, is if you can set aside what they're saying and instead hear the value. So let's apply this to the same framework. Rather than responding to what we are interpreting as the judgment, and instead we respond to the value, the need, the care, the love for you, all of a sudden our response becomes different.So if, let's say somebody brings something up at a family dinner that you know is just, it's, it's a time bomb. They just, th- they've now exposed this. "Okay, I guess we're having this conversation. Okay, everybody, I guess we're having this conversation now." Right? Instead of that, you use the framework of, "I can tell blank is important to you," and insert that blank into whatever category you're talking about. "I can tell that my wellbeing is very important to you. I can tell that the kids and how I raise the kids is really important to you. Yeah, I, I can tell that the kids are important to you. I, I can tell that my financial sec- my security, my... is important to you." And all of a sudden, what they were judging about kind of goes away. I mean, m-mothers will worry you to death. They wouldn't be a mother if they didn't.

    11. JSJay Shetty49:47

        [laughs]

    12. SPSpeaker49:48

        Yeah? I mean, they, they wouldn't be doing their job, so to speak, right? They, they say the, the hardest thing about parents is, is that they had parents, and maybe wish, maybe they wish deep down that their parents cared. They wish their mom or dad had been as invested as they are. Now, what, what is different is when that judgment turns to demands and turns-- it sours the relationship. Instead of them giving you the grace to make decisions, I think part of love of a parent is you have to allow them to make mistakes.

    13. JSJay Shetty50:23

        Mm.

    14. SPSpeaker50:24

        And then, then, then you do everything else for them. And maybe with parents, it's, it's the fear of not being relied upon anymore. "I now have to just let this thing float in the water, and I, I can never control it again?" That's very scary. Maybe instead of being so upset about their judgment, you see it as something of, well, maybe they're feeling... They don't know who they are anymore without having somebody to take care of. And maybe I just need to speak to that. "Mom, Dad, hey, thank you for everything that you've poured into me." And you, when you speak to, "You've done everything that you can, and I know that you've done the best that you, that you can," imagine the kind of conversations that can happen, because most of the time when they, in, in my experience, when parents are nitpicking, really what they're asking for is for you to fulfill the touch, that deeper connection of, "I'm not doing enough for my child."

    15. JSJay Shetty51:22

        Mm.

    16. SPSpeaker51:22

        And so when you can say, "Hey, you're a good mom. Hey, you're a great dad," and remind them of that, I think the conversation's always gonna go better.

    17. JSJay Shetty51:32

        I love that, and I hear people feeling like it can just be so exhausting to have to translate what everyone is saying-

    18. SPSpeaker51:39

        Yeah

    19. JSJay Shetty51:40

        ... in an emotionally mature way and then respond to them, almost parenting them.

    20. SPSpeaker51:47

        Oh, no doubt.

    21. JSJay Shetty51:47

        But-

    22. SPSpeaker51:48

        Yeah

    23. JSJay Shetty51:49

        ... what you're saying is true, that yes, it's exhausting. Yes, it takes time. Yes, it takes effort, but what's on the other side is so much more worthy than continuing to do what we're all doing right now, which isn't getting anywhere and isn't going anywhere.

    24. SPSpeaker52:05

        Yeah, I, I, I definitely subscribe to the mindset of what is good is worth whatever it takes.

    25. JSJay Shetty52:11

        Mm-hmm.

    26. SPSpeaker52:12

        And if it, if it's not, then it's, then it's not. And you might hear what I said and go, "Look, Jefferson, uh, more power to you, man. That sounds exhausting. I always have to do this with my parents." I'm not saying every time. There are certain times where, no, you need to get in, get out.

    27. JSJay Shetty52:26

        Yeah.

    28. SPSpeaker52:26

        They, they bring up that topic, and my favorite to use is, "Maybe so."

    29. JSJay Shetty52:32

        Yeah.

    30. SPSpeaker52:32

        I use the phrase, "Maybe so," all the time. Y- they give me a piece of advice or something, or you... Maybe it's a stranger, whoever, it's, "Yeah, maybe so."
18. 53:40 – 57:05

    How to Say No Without Feeling Guilty

    1. JSJay Shetty53:40

       you... You talked about sometimes distance, sometimes not engaging. How do you say no without feeling guilty? Because I think the challenge we have is a lot of us wanna say no, but then we feel bad for saying no. We think, "This person gave me so much. They are trying. They're caring." And then we talk ourselves out of it, but then we just walk into a trap almost, or walk into a... And then we go, "Oh, I knew that was gonna happen. I should've said no." So how do you say no without feeling guilty?

    2. SPSpeaker54:06

       If you believe that the person truly cares about your wellbeing and your life, then they'd want you to say no if you need to say no. Uh, imagine if that's the relationship you thought you had, that they were always worried about your feelings, that they actually weren't being real with you. And now what kind of relationship is it if you can't be authentic enough to actually share your, your mind? Saying no is, is very difficult, depending on the context, no doubt. What I strive for when it comes to telling people no is to lead with the no first. Like, let's say I needed to invite you to something, or let's say you needed to invite me to something, and what do most people say? "Oh my gosh, thank you so much. I appreciate it. I'd love to, um, but I can't. You know, I have all this stuff. I'm so busy. I have what-"And, you know, it's, it's almost like, "Hey, look, if you couldn't go, just say you couldn't go."

    3. JSJay Shetty55:04

       Yeah.

    4. SPSpeaker55:04

       "I don't need all this extra."

    5. JSJay Shetty55:05

       Yeah, yeah.

    6. SPSpeaker55:05

       Now it just sounds inauthentic-

    7. JSJay Shetty55:06

       Yeah

    8. SPSpeaker55:06

       ... that you've given me so much. Because why? They were afraid that you're gonna be disappointed by that. Start with a no first. "I can't make it. Thank you for inviting me. I can't make it. Thank you so much." Rather than, "I'd love to, but I can't." But has a way of just deleting everything that has come before it, and I feel that if I need to say no to something, in my mind it's you want me to say no to this because I won't f- I'm not gonna be my, I'm not gonna be my best. If you really feel uncomfortable about it, then say, "I've made a promise to myself of X."

    9. JSJay Shetty55:42

       [laughs]

    10. SPSpeaker55:42

        "I've made a promise to myself that I'm gonna be home more often. Made a promise to myself that I'm gonna use this hour to do X, Y, and Z." People don't argue with promises. They don't want you to break promises, including promises that you've kept to yourself. And saying no is as easy as just saying no. It's the no because that gets you in trouble. No, it's just, I, you know, it's because I have to go or feed my cat, and you know, I have this plant that I water. And it's... You, you, you give up all these excuses that end up diminishing your, your credibility rather than just saying, "Uh, I can't make it. No. No, thank you. Not for me. Can't do it." Sometimes the kindest thing you can do is be as direct as you can be.

    11. JSJay Shetty56:28

        I agree with you, and I d- I had to do that recently as well, and you always just don't wanna let someone down, and you don't wanna, you know, make them feel bad. And you, and you're so right. I, I always turn to just commitments I've made to myself.

    12. SPSpeaker56:42

        Yeah.

    13. JSJay Shetty56:42

        Because I think when... Because it's true, and I think you're right that when you say but, it feels like, well, I love that, but this is more important.

    14. SPSpeaker56:48

        It's and.

    15. JSJay Shetty56:49

        It's and, yeah.

    16. SPSpeaker56:50

        Yeah, yeah.

    17. JSJay Shetty56:50

        And, and when it's a promise to yourself, it's I'm trying to keep this promise to myself, and everyone knows how hard it is to keep promises to yourself, and it-

    18. SPSpeaker56:59

        They'll, they'll encourage you.

    19. JSJay Shetty57:00

        It's a real commitment. Yeah.

    20. SPSpeaker57:01

        Mm-hmm.

    21. JSJay Shetty57:01

        It's a real commitment, and it's, and when it's genuine, it really lands.

19. 57:05 – 59:54

    How to Stop Saying Things You Don’t Mean

    1. JSJay Shetty57:05

       What do you do when the scenario is you say no, and you do it in the best way possible, and someone's upset with you, and now you're toeing this line between enabling them to make you say sorry and all this kind of stuff versus holding your standard? So someone asks you s- to come to a party or to help them out with something.

    2. SPSpeaker57:25

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JSJay Shetty57:25

       You say, "No, I can't."

    4. SPSpeaker57:26

       Mm-hmm.

    5. JSJay Shetty57:27

       "Kept a promise for myself that trying to spend more time at home, can't travel." Now they try and make you feel bad about it, and they're someone that you consider a real friend, and they're not even trying to make you feel bad about it. They are just upset, and they're kind of reflecting that back on you. Do you do anything? What do you do?

    6. SPSpeaker57:45

       I'd give it a rest. Sometimes fires have to burn out, and if this, if it's a true friend, let's say, and they just send this text of it's, "This is just like you never to come, and you just, I always invite you, and you're always late," and it's... Let that die out because when they're dysregulated, you become dysregulated, and then that's when you start saying things that you don't mean-

    7. JSJay Shetty58:07

       Mm

    8. SPSpeaker58:07

       ... and saying things that are not gonna help the situation. So give it five minutes before you choose to respond. In fact, if you can, wait until the very next day, 'cause time has a way of sifting things out of what you need to respond to, and you're also giving them some, a little bit of grace of saying, "I know they're upset." Imagine if I, instead of getting upset with you of everything you said, I looked at it and go, "Man, Jay's stressed out."

    9. JSJay Shetty58:32

       [laughs]

    10. SPSpeaker58:32

        If they're a true friend, "Hey, I, I know you didn't mean that. I know you just, you're overwhelmed. You're overwhelmed." Later on, let's say a day passes, two day passes, that's when you need to say, "Your words are not okay with me. What you just sent is below my standard for a response."

    11. JSJay Shetty58:50

        Mm.

    12. SPSpeaker58:51

        You need to be able to, to toe that line of saying that, "No, I'm not gonna, e- I'm not gonna accept that kind of behavior. It's okay to be disappointed, and it's not okay to talk to me like that."

    13. JSJay Shetty59:03

        Mm.

    14. SPSpeaker59:04

        Like, you have to be able to, to choose in conversation, same with boundaries, what am I going to accept? What am I gonna say absolutely not?

    15. JSJay Shetty59:11

        Mm.

    16. SPSpeaker59:12

        Absolutely not. It's, it's the difference of if you were to yell at me or raise your voice at me, if I had no boundary, it would sound like, "Y- you can't yell at me. Really? You think you can yell at... You c- who you... Do you think you know who you're talking to? You can't yell at me." Versus if I have boundaries, I say, "I don't accept people to speak to me that way. I don't respond to that volume." Now it's, it's become a me thing, nothing that you can do, and now I've, I've controlled, I'm controlling the conversation. Now I'm taking it back. So if it's a friend, if it's a true friend, they ought to know what you really meant at that moment, and again, this talks about the capacity-

    17. JSJay Shetty59:49

        Yeah

    18. SPSpeaker59:49

        ... for letting somebody show you they're messy.

    19. JSJay Shetty59:52

        Yeah. I know

20. 59:54 – 1:02:48

    Setting Boundaries That Actually Stick

    1. JSJay Shetty59:54

       for a fact that as soon as I started living by some of this, my life just totally transformed. You just... And people actually started to respect, at least the ones that love you and are cl-

    2. SPSpeaker1:00:03

       Yeah, yeah

    3. JSJay Shetty1:00:03

       ... actually close to you, started to really respect that honesty, and started to really engage with it in a much more meaningful way, where they weren't upset when you were honest because they saw you were always honest.

    4. SPSpeaker1:00:15

       Right.

    5. JSJay Shetty1:00:16

       And you were always real. And all of a sudden it wasn't surprising anymore, whereas in the beginning when you first start-

    6. SPSpeaker1:00:23

       Yeah

    7. JSJay Shetty1:00:23

       ... setting boundaries, people will be like, "Oh, wait a minute. You used to always be available. Now you're not available?"

    8. SPSpeaker1:00:27

       Yeah, absolutely.

    9. JSJay Shetty1:00:28

       And, and people have this reaction where like, "Hey, wait a minute. W- how do you have plans on a Saturday night? I'm the one who makes plans for us on a Saturday night."

    10. SPSpeaker1:00:35

        Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    11. JSJay Shetty1:00:35

        And then over time people go, "Oh yeah, that's just who you are now."

    12. SPSpeaker1:00:37

        Yes.

    13. JSJay Shetty1:00:37

        And I think a lot of us go through these transitionary moments in our life where we go from having no boundaries to having boundaries.

    14. SPSpeaker1:00:45

        Yes.

    15. JSJay Shetty1:00:45

        We go from having no standards to having standards.

    16. SPSpeaker1:00:48

        Yeah.

    17. JSJay Shetty1:00:48

        And when you get caught in the middle, people always point it out, and it feels really painful because you are going from someone who is never organized to being organized.

    18. SPSpeaker1:00:55

        Right.

    19. JSJay Shetty1:00:56

        But now over time, people tend to respect and forget.

    20. SPSpeaker1:01:01

        Someone is upset at your boundary. It doesn't mean that it's wrong. It means that it's working. It's doing the very thing that you have the boundary in place to do. That, that discomfort that you feel, welcome. Welcome it, because that's you choosing to do something different, and always that moment will pass. Discomfort, temporary discomfort for long-term peace, sign me up.

    21. JSJay Shetty1:01:22

        [laughs]

    22. SPSpeaker1:01:23

        Yeah, si-

    23. JSJay Shetty1:01:24

        Yeah.

    24. SPSpeaker1:01:24

        Where, where can I sign up?

    25. JSJay Shetty1:01:25

        Yeah.

    26. SPSpeaker1:01:26

        And, and if you can understand that those moments of discomfort get quicker-

    27. JSJay Shetty1:01:31

        Mm-hmm

    28. SPSpeaker1:01:32

        ... and get quicker, and they-- and all of a sudden they become expected, and it's not a bad thing. You know, you know how many times as an attorney I've heard arguments between two people or I've made arguments and it's nothing? When it's these huge knockdown drag outs because I've seen a lot of it. It's not like I'm gonna be, "Oh my gosh, they're yelling. Oh my God, I..." You know, "I'm-- we're in this argument," because you've seen a lot of it. ER doctors, you know how many things they've seen? And then if you were to come with a scrape for them, they're like, "Oh, okay, this is, this is nothing."

    29. JSJay Shetty1:02:02

        [laughs]

    30. SPSpeaker1:02:02

        The, the small things become nothing, and that's what you have to remember. It's, it's, it's working a different muscle. And so whenever you feel that angst, take it as a sign for good-
21. 1:02:48 – 1:05:05

    What to Do When a Coworker Keep Interrupting You

    1. JSJay Shetty1:02:48

       relationships. If a coworker keeps interrupting you, how do you shut that down without sounding petty?

    2. SPSpeaker1:02:55

       I let them interrupt the first time, just the first, because we've all seen the people who they interrupt once and they say, "Excuse me, I was, I was talking. Excuse me. You know, I'm sorry. Where, uh... Did you not hear I was talking?" And everybody in the room goes, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Oh, okay. Excuse me. I guess you have..." What? And all of a sudden you become like the diva, right? You become the person that, "Oh, I cannot be interrupted." And sometimes, more often than not, the person who interrupted didn't even realize that they were doing it. It meant no intention whatso-ever, and some of these people are neurodivergent. Some people have ADHD, where they, they j- it's going to happen. No bad intention behind it. And if I just let it happen and let them go on, let anybody who interrupted, no matter what, be able to say what they need to say, then I start again. Why? Because if they were interrupting me, J- they weren't gonna listen to me anyway.

    3. JSJay Shetty1:03:50

       Yeah.

    4. SPSpeaker1:03:50

       They weren't listening anyway. They were only thinking about what they had to say. Now, let them get it out [laughs] and get it all out and show that I have some maturity, that I don't have to be first. I don't have to have the spotlight right in that moment. So after that first interruption, then I start over again exactly where I left off.

    5. JSJay Shetty1:04:07

       Mm-hmm.

    6. SPSpeaker1:04:08

       It's not like a, "Okay, I guess thank you." Like that dismissive-

    7. JSJay Shetty1:04:12

       Yeah

    8. SPSpeaker1:04:12

       ... passive-aggressive.

    9. JSJay Shetty1:04:13

       Yeah.

    10. SPSpeaker1:04:13

        It's start exactly where you were, and if they interrupt again, if they interrupt again, that's where I say, "I can't hear you when you interrupt me. I can't hear you-

    11. JSJay Shetty1:04:24

        Mm

    12. SPSpeaker1:04:24

        ... when you interrupt me." I do the same thing with my kids. "I can't hear you when you're whining." All of a sudden [clears throat] their voice changes.

    13. JSJay Shetty1:04:31

        [laughs]

    14. SPSpeaker1:04:31

        Every time. You know? It's, uh, e-every time it's-- if it sends the signal of, "If you want me to listen, there has to be some rules in place."

    15. JSJay Shetty1:04:39

        Mm.

    16. SPSpeaker1:04:40

        And so i-it, the, "I can't hear you when you interrupt me," the... I've also used, "I will listen to you when I'm finished. If you want me to hear you, you need to let me finish."

    17. JSJay Shetty1:04:50

        Mm.

    18. SPSpeaker1:04:51

        It's, it's me putting a, an if then. It's a condition. Uh, it's logic. If you want me to listen to you, then you need to let me finish. And so in order to get to what they want, they have to abide by the rules.

    19. JSJay Shetty1:05:04

        Yeah.

22. 1:05:05 – 1:07:56

    Overexplaining Undermines Your Confidence

    1. JSJay Shetty1:05:05

       What are the mistakes we make in the workplace that, in our communication, that make people respect us less?

    2. SPSpeaker1:05:12

       Overexplaining. We say way too much. We say everything. We say the things you never asked for.

    3. JSJay Shetty1:05:17

       [laughs]

    4. SPSpeaker1:05:17

       We just keep going, and we can't, we, we can't stop. We don't know why. You might have asked a simple question, and all of a sudden, next thing you know, they're telling you everything, probably sometimes way too personal, and they realize, "I can't stop." Overexplaining has a way of diminishing not only your control but also your confidence.

    5. JSJay Shetty1:05:38

       Mm.

    6. SPSpeaker1:05:39

       Where you've got out of that conversation, you go, "Oh my gosh, I just said way too much. Why did I say so much?" It's because it's a, it's a deeply rooted fear that you're not enough to be believed, so I have to overexplain. I have to say more so that you believe me more, so that you see how smart I am, that I do know what I'm talking about. That's why some people name-drop, so that you know that I'm important, and I'm special, and I, and I'm worth, uh, this, this job, versus only saying what you need to say. Over sh- explaining kills the confidence. What I say is rather than being a waterfall, be a well. Rather than trying to overexplain and say all the things at all the time, you just hold the knowledge and confidence of your own information, and people will come to you and ask questions when they're ready. The overexplaining is a sure way of showing that you're not somebody that can really be relied on in that moment, especially when quick decisions, hard decisions need to be made.

    7. JSJay Shetty1:06:36

       Mm. Well said. I like how when you're sharing these examples, there's a layering process, almost like there's a step one.

    8. SPSpeaker1:06:45

       Mm.

    9. JSJay Shetty1:06:46

       And if that doesn't work, then there's a step two, and if that doesn't work, then there's a step three. It's like there's-

    10. SPSpeaker1:06:50

        Right

    11. JSJay Shetty1:06:50

        ... degrees rather than like, "This is the right way, and this is the wrong way." It's almost like it feels like there's an escalation.

    12. SPSpeaker1:06:56

        Right.

    13. JSJay Shetty1:06:56

        And that's important because I think not everyone who looks like they're against you is truly against you.And, you know, in our mind, we can often portray people in a certain way. I read something recently, which I loved. It's called Hanlon's Razor, where he said that, "Don't attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity."

    14. SPSpeaker1:07:19

        Mm. [laughs]

    15. JSJay Shetty1:07:20

        And, and I love it.

    16. SPSpeaker1:07:21

        That's good. That's really good.

    17. JSJay Shetty1:07:21

        It's so good.

    18. SPSpeaker1:07:22

        Yeah.

    19. JSJay Shetty1:07:23

        And it's like, yeah, like, sometimes it's, um, you know, I was thinking about it as like, you know, all the people that you think are stabbing you in the back, they're just clumsy elbows.

    20. SPSpeaker1:07:31

        Yeah.

    21. JSJay Shetty1:07:32

        Like, it's just the idea that-

    22. SPSpeaker1:07:33

        That's all it is

    23. JSJay Shetty1:07:33

        ... yeah, it's... most of the time.

    24. SPSpeaker1:07:34

        Yeah.

    25. JSJay Shetty1:07:35

        Of course, there are certain cases-

    26. SPSpeaker1:07:36

        Slide's a mosh pit. Yeah, that's right. [laughs]

    27. JSJay Shetty1:07:38

        Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, and it's like when you start giving... When you stop thinking that everyone's against you and trying to stab you in the back-

    28. SPSpeaker1:07:44

        Yeah

    29. JSJay Shetty1:07:45

        ... then you actually operate better as well. You can actually respond better as well. You can actually-

    30. SPSpeaker1:07:50

        Absolutely
23. 1:07:56 – 1:13:16

    Breaking the Us vs. Them Mentality

    1. JSJay Shetty1:07:56

       how do people advocate for themselves in the workplace confidently? How do you communicate in a way that you can do that? And on the other side, how do leaders communicate standards and feedback effectively so that people know what, how they should grow?

    2. SPSpeaker1:08:13

       First would be to understand that most likely the person that you've talking, that you're talking to has been where you've been, and we turn it into an us versus them. When I was a, a young associate at the law firm that I was at, we would complain about the partners. We'd say, "These partners don't appreciate the, us. They don't care. They don't understand." When I became a partner, the first email I got from an associate, I was like, "These associates, they don't under- they don't get the problems of a partner." We turn it into a us versus them. The employer says, "These employees don't understand." Employees say management doesn't understand. When we don't stop to think that they have the same concerns, they're just as human and fallible as us. So if you need to advocate for yourself, it helps to be a student, to have a, a learner's mindset. So if I have to bring something to you, rather than me sitting down and go, "Okay, listen, I, I'm not being paid near enough to be around here and deal with all this." Instead of that, because from the management perspective, all they're thinking is, "Okay, I... Are they leaving? They're out the door. Okay, what does that cost? What does that do to overhead? What does that... How's that gonna affect-

    3. JSJay Shetty1:09:24

       Mm

    4. SPSpeaker1:09:25

       ... my business, my..." All, all the fears that they have deep within them of what that's gonna do to their, to their life. Same thing with the employee. They're feeling-

    5. JSJay Shetty1:09:34

       Mm-hmm

    6. SPSpeaker1:09:34

       ... everybody's saying, "I want my ball, and I'm, I'm protecting me and mine" in those kind of moments. But if I were to sit down and say, "When you were in my shoes, what did you find to be the best way of getting a higher salary or getting to your position or finding d- how did you find that you'd be more respected in this?" People love to be asked for advice.

    7. JSJay Shetty1:09:57

       Mm-hmm.

    8. SPSpeaker1:09:58

       Some people make podcasts about them. [laughs]

    9. JSJay Shetty1:10:01

       [laughs] Yeah.

    10. SPSpeaker1:10:01

        You know, like, it's, it's, it, but it's true. If you can go to your superior and say, "I need your advice," and then talk about the very thing without using your name, or use your name, that's fine, of it, what you're dealing with, all of a sudden it removes the sense of, "Oh no, what is this gonna do?" And they're gonna start thinking a thousand miles away.

    11. JSJay Shetty1:10:22

        Yeah. That's great.

    12. SPSpeaker1:10:22

        Now the fear is on. But if I were to ask, you know, "What did you find to be the best way to do X, Y, and Z? When somebody s- you know, when somebody sent you a rude email, how did you handle that?" And what it does is actually create bond between you two and remembering, hey, both of you are human.

    13. JSJay Shetty1:10:39

        Mm.

    14. SPSpeaker1:10:39

        When it comes to leadership, what I like to say is good leaders respond to conversation. Great leaders make room for it.

    15. JSJay Shetty1:10:47

        Mm-hmm.

    16. SPSpeaker1:10:48

        When I can encourage the difficult conversation in any organization that I go and talk to, I go and touch, I go and teach and train, the better that organization is going to be.

    17. JSJay Shetty1:10:59

        Mm.

    18. SPSpeaker1:10:59

        Most of the time, communication is they have no goal, no system-

    19. JSJay Shetty1:11:03

        Mm-hmm

    20. SPSpeaker1:11:04

        ... no values in terms of how do we want to communicate to each other.

    21. JSJay Shetty1:11:08

        Mm-hmm.

    22. SPSpeaker1:11:09

        You know, there's, there's a difference between one restaurant that might just say thank you when they give you your food, and the other says, "My pleasure."

    23. JSJay Shetty1:11:17

        Mm-hmm.

    24. SPSpeaker1:11:18

        Right? There's, there's a difference.

    25. JSJay Shetty1:11:19

        Yep.

    26. SPSpeaker1:11:19

        And, and every little word nuance that you have, when you can say, "What's our shared vocabulary?" And that's leadership and how we're going to communicate. Why? Because we've set the value and standard of how we want to be, not only to the world and the outside, but also within ourselves. So am I really caring about you, or am I just, "Hey, thanks for the email. Con-" Like, that's ultimately why I left my first law firm is I, I was helping clients that were nice and great, but there was really no connection. It was just a file to them.

    27. JSJay Shetty1:11:54

        Yeah.

    28. SPSpeaker1:11:55

        And that, that became where eventually the bill comes due.

    29. JSJay Shetty1:11:58

        Yeah.

    30. SPSpeaker1:11:58

        And it's just, yeah, you just, you're left empty-handed.
24. 1:13:16 – 1:18:05

    Jefferson on Final Five

    1. JSJay Shetty1:13:16

       Uh, we end every episode with a Final Five.

    2. SPSpeaker1:13:18

       Okay.

    3. JSJay Shetty1:13:19

       These have to be questions that are answered in one word to one sentence maximum. So most people take one sentence.

    4. SPSpeaker1:13:25

       Oh, okay, okay.

    5. JSJay Shetty1:13:25

       No one ever does it in one word. So Jefferson Fisher, these are your Final Five.

    6. SPSpeaker1:13:29

       Okay.

    7. JSJay Shetty1:13:30

       The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

    8. SPSpeaker1:13:34

       You can't look back and hoe a straight row.

    9. JSJay Shetty1:13:37

       [laughs]

    10. SPSpeaker1:13:39

        It's like, uh, when you're gardening or you can't, you, you can't look back and also-

    11. JSJay Shetty1:13:43

        Yeah

    12. SPSpeaker1:13:43

        ... create a r- It's, it's like saying you, you can't drive a boat by l- staring at the wake. You can't look back.

    13. JSJay Shetty1:13:49

        Yeah. Well said. Uh, second question, what is the worst advice you've ever had or received?

    14. SPSpeaker1:13:54

        Saying nice things will serve you well.

    15. JSJay Shetty1:13:58

        Mm.

    16. SPSpeaker1:13:59

        Being, playing nice will serve you well. Because if you say that nice serves you well, what ends up happening is that you eventually end up serving it.

    17. JSJay Shetty1:14:10

        Mm.

    18. SPSpeaker1:14:11

        You people please. You say the nice thing at the expense of, of being real.

    19. JSJay Shetty1:14:17

        Yeah. Question number three, what is the difference between being real and being harsh?

    20. SPSpeaker1:14:24

        My intention for your ultimate good.

    21. JSJay Shetty1:14:26

        Mm.

    22. SPSpeaker1:14:27

        If I truly want the best for you, then I'm gonna be okay with saying the harsh thing 'cause I won't regret it.

    23. JSJay Shetty1:14:33

        Mm.

    24. SPSpeaker1:14:34

        But I will regret saying the thing that isn't as real as it should be.

    25. JSJay Shetty1:14:39

        Yeah, and it all comes down to intention.

    26. SPSpeaker1:14:40

        Yes.

    27. JSJay Shetty1:14:41

        Sometimes we say we're being real, but really we're just being harsh. Like, we just don't really care.

    28. SPSpeaker1:14:46

        [laughs] Yeah.

    29. JSJay Shetty1:14:46

        And it comes across harsh, and someone's like, "That's a bit harsh." And you're like, "Well, I'm just being real."

    30. SPSpeaker1:14:49

        Yes. They can use it as a mask.

Episode duration: 1:18:05