5 LOVE EXPERTS: Still Obsessed With Your Ex? THIS Will Finally Set You Free

1. 0:00 – 2:19

   Intro

   1. JSJay Shetty0:00

      A breakup can literally wreck your life. You could be doing so well in your career, and now you show up to work in the worst mood. You could have a great relationship with your family, but now every holiday season, all you can do is think about that person. You've got a great group of friends around you. They love you, but they're all in relationships, and you feel like you're behind. You feel like you're not the one who's getting proposed to, you're not the one who's moving in. You're the one who's starting all over again. If you felt any of that, this episode is dedicated to you because I want your breakup to become a moment you look back on as the greatest pivot that ever happened in your life.

   2. SSStephan Speaks0:40

      The number one health and wellness podcast.

   3. JSJay Shetty0:43

      Jay Shetty.

   4. SPSpeaker0:44

      Jay Shetty.

   5. JSJay Shetty0:44

      The one, the only Jay Shetty.

   6. SSStephan Speaks0:47

      [laughs]

   7. JSJay Shetty0:49

      At one point in life, each of us gets our heart broken. Maybe it was two years ago, maybe it was two months ago, or maybe it was two days ago, but each and every one of us knows how painful a heartbreak can be. Because you're not only losing that person, you're losing the perception of the life you believed you were going to have. You're losing the version of you you were with that person, and you're losing the projection of this future that you were building together. What we don't realize about breakups is that we're actually living through grief. It's this slow, aching loss that doesn't have a funeral. You're mourning a future that won't happen, trying to figure it out, all the sadness, the confusion, the anger. And often in the beginning, you think, "I wish they would stay. I wish they'd be here forever." And then sometimes you move into this phase of, "What did I do wrong? What could I have done differently? Could I have held on? Could I have been better?" And then at some point, you go between the two at the same time. Healing isn't linear. It's messy, it's raw, it's deeply personal. And so as you listen to this today, whichever stage you're at in your breakup journey, I hope it helps you. In this clip, relationship

2. 2:19 – 9:19

   Why Breakups Feel Like the Hardest Loss

   1. JSJay Shetty2:19

      expert, therapist, and bestselling author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and one of my favorite guests on the podcast, talks about how we expect a sense of closure. We want someone to give us this feeling, an understanding of why they left us. What was their reason? Why did they cheat on us, if that was the case? And often we can spiral and go round and round in circles, hoping and expecting this answer. But we all know that answer rarely comes. That person's not around anymore. They don't feel a responsibility to give it to us, and closure is something we continue to chase. In this segment, she'll talk a bit about how you can find that and where it truly comes from. At the same time, she talks about how we need to acknowledge the value of what's lost. It's so important to really recognize how we've lost things in the past, the present, and the future. And she also tells us how to seek advice from our friends. We all want love, we all want support, but she gives a really clear insight to know which friends to be around when you're going through a breakup. Take a listen. I still find till this day that breakups seem to be the hardest-

   2. LGLori Gottlieb3:33

      Yes

   3. JSJay Shetty3:33

      ... relationship transition that people tend to go through, maybe apart from grief or maybe even similar, and I'd love your thoughts on that. But because it is a kind of loss, I think, that people feel. There was one person, uh, from the audience that we were connected with that had a breakup, and they really-- They were together with this person for two years. They really thought this is the person that they were going to spend their life with. They really thought this was going in that direction. They, they felt that they actually had good, like, compatibility. They were good at talking about things. But then what felt like out of the blue to this person, they just felt that this person was like, "I don't think this is going in that direction anymore," and then things withered away quickly. It's hard when you kind of, you know, and this is probably what you get all the time, people don't feel a sense of closure. They don't really understand. The other person's not doing a good job explaining it, and doesn't want to or doesn't have the time. What are some of the steps that we need to take when we're kind of lost in that no person's land of, "I thought I had something. It doesn't exist anymore"?

   4. LGLori Gottlieb4:38

      Well, first of all, loss is exactly it. It's grief, and people go through the stages of grief, and the stages of grief are not sequential. So they're, they're actually meant for people who are, who are experiencing terminal illness: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. Um, but they're very apt, I think, for, for any kind of loss. And when you talk about a breakup, there can be denial, like, "Oh, you don't really mean that."

   5. JSJay Shetty5:01

      Mm-hmm.

   6. LGLori Gottlieb5:01

      "We really are compatible."

   7. JSJay Shetty5:03

      Mm-hmm.

   8. LGLori Gottlieb5:03

      And you try to talk the other person into maybe seeing-

   9. JSJay Shetty5:07

      Mm-hmm

   10. LGLori Gottlieb5:07

       ... the light [laughs] that they can't see.

   11. JSJay Shetty5:10

       Yep.

   12. LGLori Gottlieb5:10

       You know, the anger is, "How could you have led me on for this amount of time? You're, you're s- you're such a terrible person. You wasted all my time. You were lying to me this whole time," when the person wasn't. They, they probably truly, you know, thought this was going somewhere. You know, the bargaining is, "Well, what if," you know. You know, the, and the person tells you maybe why they're breaking up with you, like, "I don't think that we're compatible in this way," and then you try to become the thing, you know. Like, "What if I did this?"

   13. JSJay Shetty5:36

       Mm-hmm.

   14. LGLori Gottlieb5:37

       Or, "I can be more this," or, "We can do this."

   15. JSJay Shetty5:39

       Mm-hmm.

   16. LGLori Gottlieb5:39

       And they're like, "No, that's not really the, the way this will get solved." You know, depression, which is just the whole... I mean, it's so-- Because, uh, I think what people don't realize is it's not what you're losing just in the moment, it's you're losing the future that you had imagined. So you, you lose the past, you lose, like, all the, uh, whatever amount of time you spent with that person. You built a life.With this person, and it's the dailiness. There's an intimacy to that dailiness. There's a comfort, there's a safety of this person knows all these little quirks about me. Um, you know, we have all these inside jokes. We have a shorthand. Um, you know, this person asks how my day is. I know... You know, it's, it's the dailiness of being with someone.

   17. JSJay Shetty6:23

       Mm-hmm.

   18. LGLori Gottlieb6:24

       So you lose that, that's very lonely. But then you also lose the future. You had built up a whole story about what your lives were gonna be like in a year, five years, 10 years, 20 years. Gone, and you have nothing to replace it with right now, 'cause you don't know what it's gonna look like yet. So the grief is real, and I think people try to downplay it. They're like, "Why are you so sad about this? He was a jerk," or, "She was a jerk," or whatever. It's like, I'm sad because I lost something very important to me, and your friends need to realize that. Instead of just demonizing the other person, um, they need to realize, like, you lost something really valuable in your daily life, in the present, in the future, part of your past. All of that is gone now, so that's really hard. I think the other part of, of then dealing with the grief is letting yourself feel it, 'cause it's real. No matter [laughs] what people tell you, it's real. Um, and the other part is the story that you're telling yourself about it is really important. So you might be telling yourself a story of, "The other person's terrible." That might feel good in the moment. It might be something like, "I'm bad. You know, like, I'm not good enough. If I were only something else, this person would love me more," or, "I'm not lovable," or, "I'll never find anyone." Right? Those are not helpful stories, 'cause it's not true. It's you were not compatible with this person for whatever reason, even though you thought you were. If the other person doesn't feel you're the right person for them, you're automatically [laughs] incompatible.

   19. JSJay Shetty7:47

       Yeah.

   20. LGLori Gottlieb7:48

       Right? You can't, you can't make it so that, well, they just don't see it. So we aren't compatible because the other person doesn't want to be with me. So many times I'll hear, you know, someone even without a breakup, like someone will be dating someone, and the person isn't really invested in the relationship maybe in the way that they would like them to. And the person sitting on my couch will say, "But we're so compatible. We're so perfect for each other. That person just has intimacy issues, and I could just change them." Even if the breakup was about you think the person had intimacy issues, it doesn't really matter. The point is, they aren't able to be with you, so you are not compatible.

   21. JSJay Shetty8:24

       Mm-hmm.

   22. LGLori Gottlieb8:25

       And so that is, I think, very comforting to know, like, we are just not compatible. Even though it hurts a lot, we're not compatible, and I have to sit with the pain of I need to know that we were not compatible and that's not going to jade me in other relationships. And I think that's the important thing. So many times we get into a new relationship after that, and we punish the new person for something the old person did.

   23. JSJay Shetty8:49

       Yeah.

   24. LGLori Gottlieb8:50

       Right? Like, the old, the old person wasn't truthful with me, so I'm gonna, like, check your phone all the time. No. Don't, don't, like, put someone in jail for a crime they didn't commit.

   25. JSJay Shetty9:00

       Mm.

   26. LGLori Gottlieb9:01

       So you gotta really, like, know what are the wounds from this relationship? What am I learning from this? What does this teach me about me, about the other person? And then, how do I move into a new relationship with hope and with caution, and hold, holding both hope and caution?

3. 9:19 – 20:21

   “Why Wasn’t I Enough?” Understanding the Root of Self-Blame

   1. JSJay Shetty9:19

      Now, this next clip is from relationship expert and my good friend Matthew Hussey. What I love about this that I think is gonna help so many of you is so many of us turn a breakup into self-blame. We think about all the things we got wrong, all the things we should have done better, all the things we could have done better, all the things we wish we did, and it becomes this almost self-critical version of a conversation. And because you've not got the other person to talk to anymore, it's something you're going through by yourself. Matthew talks about how you can shift in this situation. How do we go from this happened to me, to how can I grow from this? Listen to this clip if you're struggling right now with blaming yourself for the breakup you just went through. Let's talk a bit about breakups, because I think the challenge is that everyone in their life goes through at least one or two, maybe more, really painful breakups, whether it's infidelity, whether it's out... it feels out of the blue. Someone just goes, "Yep, not working out for me anymore." Whether it's different goals and different plans and priorities that emerge over time. And I think everyone who goes through a breakup blames it on themself often, thinks that this is the end. There'll never be another person, and it feels like a really dark, dark, dark, empty road, and a lonely road. And I think it's really interesting, because there's so many, you know, piece of advice and everything about, like, how to get over a breakup and, and I've talked about that as well myself, but I just find that it seems to be a path that you have to walk and have to take, and there's no real acceleration or there's not, as you said, there's not like a, "I'm gonna get over this breakup in three months," right? There's no timeline or deadline that you can set on it, but it's just uncomfortable, and it's almost like sitting in discomfort. What do we do when we're sitting in that discomfort?

   2. MHMatthew Hussey11:24

      Well, when you're in the depths of it, 'cause there's different phases, right? Like, there's a certainly a phase of any heartbreak when it's genuine, deep heartbreak where you are just questioning your existence, where you are like, I, this... You know, I remember having my own heart broken and sitting on the s- door, the, the doorstep of my house with a friend of mine and just with tears in my eyes saying to him, "I just feel like I'm not good enough." Like, that was my deep sense, was that I am not good enough, and if I was good enough, I would have been able to make this work. And-And that's a, that's a horrible place to be. And you, you know, we have to have compassion for ourselves in those times because it's brutally difficult. It's a time where we just need love, and we need to celebrate the fact that we got through another day and that we got... I managed to get out of bed today and, you know, it was a act of-- It was a heroic act for me to just get out of bed. We then have to... You know, I, I always think that all of these moments give us gears that we wouldn't have had otherwise, and the worst pain of my life has given me access to gears that I didn't know I had. And as much as no one wants to hear it when they're in it, those gears turn out to be really valuable. They, they really do. I mean, we all choose suffering in our lives. Like, we, we choose to go to the gym. That's choosing suffering. [chuckles] We choose, like, to write a book. That's choosing a form of suffering. We choose to make a podcast, or we choose to climb a literal mountain or... Like, we choose pain in our lives regularly because we know that it gives us... There are benefits to be had. I have to argue that the benefit I have gotten from the pain that I didn't choose-

   3. JSJay Shetty13:39

      Mm-hmm

   4. MHMatthew Hussey13:40

      ... has been no less valuable than the benefit I've gotten from the pain I did choose. In fact, actually, I think the most valuable pain I've ever had is the pain I didn't choose. And when you realize that, you can kind of almost, I think, look at some of the worst moments of your life as like a menu of pain, and beside the item on the menu is the very specific, unique benefits that can only come from this kind of pain. And you can kind of imagine yourself choosing, like, retroactively choosing that pain-

   5. JSJay Shetty14:16

      Yeah

   6. MHMatthew Hussey14:16

      ... which is a very valuable thing to do because there's... I was told by a psychologist about an experiment on rats where, uh, one rat was on a wheel and was just given, you know, like, the free rein to just run whenever it wanted to run. There was another rat. This was rat A. Rat B was connected to that wheel. He was on another wheel that was connected to rat A's wheel.

   7. JSJay Shetty14:44

      Mm.

   8. MHMatthew Hussey14:44

      And any time rat A chose to run, rat B had to run.

   9. JSJay Shetty14:51

      Mm.

   10. MHMatthew Hussey14:51

       Right? So both doing the same amount of exercising, but at the end of the experiment, rat A shows all the positive markers of exercise, and rat B shows all the negative markers of stress.

   11. JSJay Shetty15:03

       Oh, wow.

   12. MHMatthew Hussey15:05

       Same amount of exercise. What's the difference? Well, rat A chose to run. Rat B didn't. And there, there's something profound about that-

   13. JSJay Shetty15:16

       Mm. Mm. Mm

   14. MHMatthew Hussey15:16

       ... to me because if we can take a situation that we didn't choose, who would choose to be heartbroken, right? It's the worst. It's a terrible pain. But, but what if in that pain you did realize, like, there is something here that I'm gonna gain from this experience-

   15. JSJay Shetty15:33

       Mm. Mm

   16. MHMatthew Hussey15:34

       ... that I couldn't have any other way? That if I look on that menu of pain, this one has some really good benefits. Like, this one has some really amazing stuff. Who I'm gonna have to become to get through this, what I'm gonna have to learn, the way I'm gonna have to get comfort... Even just to get through a weekend right now on my own is, is, is gonna be this unbelievable feat, and to get comfortable in my own company and to sit in this pain, and it-- there's such profound benefits from that. What if I did actually look at those benefits and say, "They're so powerful that I'm gonna choose this pain so that I can experience those benefits"? And so you, you turn yourself from rat B to rat A, and all of a sudden you're not a victim of that pain anymore. You're, you're the beneficiary of these exquisite gifts that you could only get this way, uh, and that, that's only... That's one tool I've used to get through some of the worst, worst pain of my life. And then on a pract-- uh, on a psychological level with heartbreak, what I always remind people is that if anyone who doesn't choose you cannot be for you, they... If they don't see you... Like, what is a relationship? It's someone sees you, they accept you, and they want that. That's, that's the most beautiful part of a relationship. So if someone doesn't s-see you and accept you and want what they see, then this relationship is missing the most beautiful part of any relationship. It, it shouldn't even be des... You know, it shouldn't be desirable at that stage because it's not... It has failed the fundamental test of what makes a relationship worth having. We're not talking about a person who, you know, in, in at least the case I feel we're talking about, the person who was taken from us by life. We're talking about a person who's just walking around somewhere, still existing on the planet, but choosing not to be with us. That should lose its romance to us. It, it, you know... And, and to say, "Well, if..." That's the other game we play is, "If it was a different time in life, if they were a bit older, they would've been ready to commit. If they had been in a different phase where they weren't so busy with their work, they might have had the space to really give to this relationship, but they said their work isn't allowing them to. If..." It-it's like we go through all these scenarios where it, it forces us into this sad love song of right person, wrong time.

   17. JSJay Shetty18:17

       And that's a really, like, pernicious story. You- That's a very dangerous story because it, it takes what belongs in the realm of science fiction and brings it into our reality. Like, it, it ... when we're thinking about an ex from, like, five years ago, and we're like, "I miss them. I don't know why," you know, like, you don't even know who they are anymore. That was five years ago. They're a different person now in many ways. You're a different person now in many way. If you got together now, you'd be getting together as different people.

   18. SSStephan Speaks18:51

       Mm.

   19. JSJay Shetty18:51

       You miss a ghost.

   20. SSStephan Speaks18:53

       Yeah.

   21. JSJay Shetty18:53

       Person doesn't exist anymore in the way that you think they do, you know? And when you're saying, "Oh, if only we met five years from now, it would've worked," in what parallel universe? It's a ... This is science fiction. Like, it's not, it didn't happen in this universe, so it's, it's like, it, it, it is wishing for a parallel universe where everything, all the dominoes unfolded in a different way. It's not this universe. So we just, we have to get out of this mindset because it gets us bought into a, a science fiction story that doesn't really exist. I don't believe in the right person at the wrong time. It's the right person is right in their personality, they're ready, and their life is compatible with yours. If you're missing one of those three things, then it's not the right person. The right person has to be more than someone who you have a great time with, and you like who they are and have great conversation and, and, and great intimacy. That can't, th- that's not the only criteria for someone who's right. So we have to stop telling ourself the story that someone who, you know, broke up with us or it was bad timing or whatever is the right person for us. That is a, that is just a story. It is not reality. The right person is the person it happens with. I'm

4. 20:21 – 25:15

   Knowing When It’s Time to Let Go

   1. JSJay Shetty20:21

      sure you've thought about this before. We all have this feeling. Did I meet the right person at the wrong time, or did I meet the wrong person at the right time? And we can kind of get lost in that phase. This next clip from Stephan Speaks is for you if you're one of those people who's wondering, "Oh, did I just lose the right person for me? Did I just let go of the person who I was meant to spend my life with? Did I just make a mistake and lose the right person and meet them at the wrong time?" This clip is gonna help you make sense of that. What he's also going to talk about is the impact it has on us when our partner no longer wants to communicate with us. Maybe you're in a relationship where your partner doesn't like to have difficult conversations. Maybe they don't like to talk about emotions. Maybe they don't have the capacity to go to that depth with you. And if they're getting everything else right, maybe it's possible, but if you're starting to feel this weakening the relationship, Stephan speaks really clearly on how to make a decision. So if you're stuck in that point, this clip's really gonna help you as well. And if you're someone who feels like you keep making the same mistakes, maybe you keep picking the same person, just someone that looks different. Maybe you keep being too needy or too wanting or too demanding, or maybe you always end up trying to fix their problems and solve their life. If you found a recurring pattern in your relationship, and you wanna know how to interrupt it and break it, this clip's for you. Take a listen.

   2. SSStephan Speaks22:02

      Letting go doesn't always mean it can't work out later.

   3. JSJay Shetty22:06

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SSStephan Speaks22:07

      It's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances, all right? 'Cause some people say, "Well, I feel like they're the one." Okay, maybe they are, but maybe the time is not right, and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you two to come back together and have something way more amazing.

   5. JSJay Shetty22:26

      Mm.

   6. SSStephan Speaks22:26

      So that's number one thing to consider. But outside of that, it's when, one, if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary, it's time to go. There's ... Like, I, so many times, I, I'll, I'll have a video go up about communication, and someone will comment saying, "I've tried talking to him, and he doesn't wanna talk to me." And in my head, I'm like, "Well, why are you still with him?"

   7. JSJay Shetty22:47

      Mm.

   8. SSStephan Speaks22:48

      If he refuses to talk to you, you've already tried. There's nothing else to do. But people will let it linger on and continue while they con- wh- while they s- consistently complain or unhappy about the specific issue. It's not gonna magically get better. They're not gonna just change it just 'cause all of a sudden they see, oh, it needs to change. No, if they're fighting it now, they have no reason to change it. And what people have to understand, you know, especially with this whole trying to fix people up, healing and facing your traumas is one of the hardest things for people to do. So if they already have you in their life, they're essentially getting the incentive or the benefit of relationship without having to do the deeper work.

   9. JSJay Shetty23:29

      Mm.

   10. SSStephan Speaks23:29

       It's almost like if I'm at a job, and the job says, "You need to have a master's degree to work here, but we're gonna hire you anyway and give you time to get that master's degree," if getting that degree is super hard to you, you're gonna drag that out as long as possible.

   11. JSJay Shetty23:42

       Yeah.

   12. SSStephan Speaks23:43

       You may never get the degree until they fire you. When they fire you and you realize, "Oh my gosh, th- I, if I don't do this, I'll never get this person back. I'll never get this opportunity back," now they might go and get it because it's very tough to walk down the path of the healing process. So if they're not willing to work on it, you guys have already discussed it, and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end, and the couples don't even know what the real issue was.

   13. JSJay Shetty24:12

       Mm-hmm.

   14. SSStephan Speaks24:13

       So the communication, they'll say, "Well, we talked about..." No, you guys argued. You guys lashed out. There wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was, what is expected, how do we go about this. If you've done that, and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter'Cause I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns, they typically don't go well. You know, people get distracted, they forget what they want to say, the other person gets defensive, they're not... They're listening to rebuttal, not to understand. But when there's a letter involved, it gives you time to get everything out. You can, you can evaluate your tone, leave no stone unturned, and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time, to really take it in, and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter.

   15. JSJay Shetty25:00

       Mm.

   16. SSStephan Speaks25:00

       And now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered. If we've done that and they're still unwilling, or there's still no progress, it's time to go.

   17. JSJay Shetty25:12

       Yeah. That's great. That's great advice. And I,

5. 25:15 – 28:43

   Should You Try to Win Them Back?

   1. JSJay Shetty25:15

      for me, that's the biggest one. It's like, you can't make something last if only one person's working on it. You can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and... And like you said, that ending doesn't mean forever.

   2. SSStephan Speaks25:30

      Mm.

   3. JSJay Shetty25:30

      And often I've found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively.

   4. SSStephan Speaks25:38

      Yeah.

   5. JSJay Shetty25:38

      And we're forcing growing together so hard, but we need space to grow.

   6. SSStephan Speaks25:44

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JSJay Shetty25:45

      And if you can't grow together, chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else. And all of those options are okay, but we put so much pressure on people to grow together, that they grow apart.

   8. SSStephan Speaks26:00

      Yeah.

   9. JSJay Shetty26:01

      And actually, if they chose to grow apart and grow separately, they could come back together if they learn the lessons. And I think that's a mistake, too, that sometimes people think, "I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person."

   10. SSStephan Speaks26:14

       Yeah. [laughs]

   11. JSJay Shetty26:14

       I meet a lot of people, they're like-

   12. SSStephan Speaks26:15

       Yeah

   13. JSJay Shetty26:15

       ... "Okay, they broke up with me because I wasn't X, Y, Z, now I'm gonna go become X, Y, Z to win them back."

   14. SSStephan Speaks26:21

       Yeah.

   15. JSJay Shetty26:22

       And I always find I'm just like, "Well, no, you should go become e- y- X, Y, Z if you think you are missing X, Y, Z-

   16. SSStephan Speaks26:29

       Yeah

   17. JSJay Shetty26:29

       ... but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do." What's your take on people trying to win people back?

   18. SSStephan Speaks26:35

       So I 100% agree with you. Like, if we're trying to learn or grow, it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal with. So it's almost like if I was a bad communicator in this relationship, I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person, I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with. If you can't see it in that light, then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing. My thing is this, I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was, what led to the breakup, what were you overlooking, what was missing, are these fixable issues? Because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved. So it's like, what's the point of going back? We're just gonna go in the same cycle all over again. They're letting this idea of, "I miss them, I don't wanna be without them," blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well, or you two don't want the same things, or you, you two just... Whatever it is. Maybe there's a lack of, of sexual satisfaction. I don't know why I felt the need to mention that, but that's what ha-

   19. JSJay Shetty27:35

       Yeah

   20. SSStephan Speaks27:35

       ... happens a lot of times. You have to stay focused on what led to the end, and can this be corrected? If it can, cool, but as you mentioned, correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back. And even if they will come back, you don't know when. They may need... So you may have figured yourself out in six months, they might need a year. And I would argue, if you guys are truly meant for each other and they needed a year, you need a year too. You're just overlooking some things and you're rushing the process 'cause you wanna get back to them.

   21. JSJay Shetty28:11

       Yeah.

   22. SSStephan Speaks28:11

       It's, I've never found a situation where it was truly only one person who had problems and the other person was squeaky clean.

   23. JSJay Shetty28:19

       Yeah.

   24. SSStephan Speaks28:19

       No, no, no, no. You thought you were. [laughs]

   25. JSJay Shetty28:22

       [laughs] Yeah.

   26. SSStephan Speaks28:22

       But you had some stuff, too, you needed to correct.

   27. JSJay Shetty28:24

       Of course.

   28. SSStephan Speaks28:25

       So I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just keep striving to be better. And rather than focus on winning them back, just become the best you. Because if you do, and there's a true connection there, the opportunity will present itself again, and you two will be able to make something of it.

   29. JSJay Shetty28:42

       And the

6. 28:43 – 34:41

   Practical Steps to Letting Go After a Breakup

   1. JSJay Shetty28:43

      struggle is that when people finally make that decision to break up or let go, the studies show that the parts of your brain that are activated in a break-up are the same as detoxing from cocaine.

   2. SSStephan Speaks28:57

      Mm.

   3. JSJay Shetty28:58

      Right? Like, you're literally trying to detox, so you can have a craving-

   4. SSStephan Speaks29:02

      Yeah

   5. JSJay Shetty29:02

      ... for someone that's bad for you.

   6. SSStephan Speaks29:04

      Yeah.

   7. JSJay Shetty29:05

      Or also, it says that the areas of the brain that are activated in a break-up are the areas that are the same with physical pain.

   8. SSStephan Speaks29:13

      Mm.

   9. JSJay Shetty29:13

      So if someone, like, punched you in the stomach. The reason why we say, like, "My heart feels broken," is because it literally feels like something's broken.

   10. SSStephan Speaks29:21

       Yeah.

   11. JSJay Shetty29:21

       So when you're going through a break-up, when you're feeling the craving to be with that person again, studies show that eight- over 80% of people are looking at what their exes are doing on social media, right? Probably through a Finsta account-

   12. SSStephan Speaks29:33

       [laughs]

   13. JSJay Shetty29:33

       ... or whatever. But you have, you have to know. What are some of the healthiest tips that you've given to people and the people that you've worked with that have genuinely helped people move through a break-up?

   14. SSStephan Speaks29:44

       The first thing is to ask yourself again, "Why was I even there? Why am I holding onto this individual?" Again, I think sometimes we get so blinded by j- just the experience or our desire to have this person for whatever reason, that we overlook what was really missing or why this could not work anyway. What you'll also find is, and I'm sure there's probably a study on it, where if you, if they broke up with you... You ever see a situation, it happens on TV a lot, where the person could be like, "Okay, I'm gonna break up with my partner." They're planning on it, they've been practicing in their head, right? [laughs] It took them a couple weeks to muster up the strength. They're about to do it, and then the partner breaks up with them.

   15. JSJay Shetty30:23

       Yeah.

   16. SSStephan Speaks30:24

       Now it's, "Oh my gosh, I gotta get them back."

   17. JSJay Shetty30:26

       Yeah.

   18. SSStephan Speaks30:26

       So it's like you just forgot this whole time, that was your plan.

   19. JSJay Shetty30:29

       Yeah.

   20. SSStephan Speaks30:30

       They just gave you the pass to do it, but now, because we don't like to be the one being let go of-

   21. JSJay Shetty30:35

       Yeah

   22. SSStephan Speaks30:35

       ... now we're fighting hard to get it back.

   23. JSJay Shetty30:37

       Yeah. Wow.

   24. SSStephan Speaks30:38

       So we have to really not fall into these little-... traps, uh, uh, that happen to us as human beings. Our brain's just playing tricks on us or something, where we confuse these emotions for, "Oh my gosh, I must really love them." Or even like you said, you, you go into that detox, and because you miss... I always tell people, "No matter how bad a relationship was, there's always good moments." So if you're trying to break free, you can't just let your brain focus on the good moments. You have to remind yourself why this doesn't work. But if you keep focusing on the good, you start to make yourself think, "Oh, because I miss this good moment, I must miss them." And there's this quote that says, "Sometimes you're not missing the person, you're missing the feeling." So you've got to be able to differentiate those two things. So getting back to how we get over these breakups is recognizing why were we really there to begin with. You know, could this actually work? The next thing is, you know, I'm, I'm a huge believer that a lot of times a breakup is a blessing in disguise. Even if there is a chance that you two can work together or this is the one for you, you may have needed this time to reevaluate and get things in order. Something is obviously wrong. Even if you... It, it may be something as deep as... 'Cause I've seen situations where everything was going amazingly well on the surface, and the person broke up with them.

   25. JSJay Shetty32:01

       Mm.

   26. SSStephan Speaks32:01

       Let's say the woman lets go of the man. So to the man, that's really confusing. But what it was is that that woman, she had not healed from her past relationships, and this relationship being so good was scaring her.

   27. JSJay Shetty32:12

       Mm.

   28. SSStephan Speaks32:13

       And what happens is the, the better you are, the scarier it becomes for her. She's looking for something to be wrong. She has to validate her fear somehow. When she can't find it, she'll either sabotage the relationship or she'll run from it. So to that man, it may seem like this is so unfair, which, yeah, it sucks. But if this woman didn't break up with you now, you were inevitably gonna face this same ending, but at a worse time.

   29. JSJay Shetty32:39

       Yeah.

   30. SSStephan Speaks32:40

       All right? This is still best that it's happening now. At least if she can go do what she needs to do, there's a chance for this to come back around later. But it's hard for us to see it in the moment. So I think just really we also have to focus on our healing. Whenever a breakup happens, the mistake we make is that we think it's about healing from the breakup. No, it's healing from everything you've been through.
7. 34:41 – 36:56

   Do What’s Best For You to Heal

   1. JSJay Shetty34:41

      you spoke about there that changes everything, and it hit me today. I was just thinking, if we were just able in a moment to recognize that something painful now was going to be good for us in five years' time-

   2. SSStephan Speaks34:58

      Mm-hmm

   3. JSJay Shetty34:58

      ... that would change so many things in our life.

   4. SSStephan Speaks35:01

      [laughs] Yes.

   5. JSJay Shetty35:02

      But we're so poor at dealing with current pain-

   6. SSStephan Speaks35:06

      Yeah

   7. JSJay Shetty35:06

      ... even if it means future joy-

   8. SSStephan Speaks35:09

      Mm-hmm

   9. JSJay Shetty35:09

      ... that we just can't accept that I have to go through this, like, in everything, right? Like, knowing that someone breaking up with you just saved you 10 years of a wasted life is so much more than knowing you're gonna have to go through a few months of pain, and 10 months of pain. Maybe it's a bit longer, maybe it's two, three years.

   10. SSStephan Speaks35:29

       Yeah.

   11. JSJay Shetty35:29

       But we just have to get our head around that, that sometimes the best things that happen to you are protecting more of your life than the pain that they're causing.

   12. SSStephan Speaks35:39

       You need the peace of knowing I did what I needed to do.

   13. JSJay Shetty35:42

       That's it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   14. SSStephan Speaks35:43

       You see? 'Cause any time you feel like, well, may- I could've done this better, I could've done... That leaves the door open for doubt.

   15. JSJay Shetty35:49

       Do it, or...

   16. SSStephan Speaks35:50

       E- exactly. So it's like... And that's why I'm such a big believer in, you know, there's people who say, "Well, once they're done, they're done. They'll just move on." And I'm like, "No, no, no. Express yourself. Get everything off your chest," because you don't need anything to linger and you questioning, "Well, what if I did this different?" No. Make s- speak your full piece, and now you can say, "All right. I did what I had to do. It is what it is. I move forward." And I mean, it makes it easier. It may not make it 100%, uh, you know, not an issue whatsoever, but it's gonna be easier. And I'll say also for me, that's why, like, my relationship with God is so important, because that's where I find my peace in dealing with a situation that doesn't work out the way I want to. I always tell myself, "Okay, if this isn't working out, God has something better for me." You know? If this is happening right now, there's a purpose. 'Cause I know if I followed his guidance throughout this process, th- there's no need for me to question why is this the current outcome. There's a reason for this, and I've been through these things enough times to see, as you mentioned, the reward is gonna come. It may come next week, it may come years from now. It will come, and I'll be able to see how it all connected.

8. 36:56 – 39:30

   Everyone Handles a Breakup Differently and That’s Okay

   1. JSJay Shetty36:56

      Now, be honest with me. How many of youHave gone through a breakup and then just started craving your ex, where you're now looking at their social media profiles, you're looking at old text messages, you're talking to your friends who know that person and trying to find out what they're up to. It can drive us crazy because breakups can actually make you crave your ex like an addiction. That's what our next guest, New York Times bestselling author Esther Perel, and relationship therapist for decades, talks about in this clip. We also learn about how a lot of the challenges that we face in our relationship, a lot of the conflicts actually come from our own fears. If you find yourself always being insecure in a relationship, if you're always second-guessing that person's intentions, if you're always questioning whether they're truly emotionally available or really care for you or really there for you, this clip is for you. I've seen research that shows how when someone breaks up with you or when you break up with someone, you almost crave them like we crave an addiction that may even be unhealthy for us at times. Why do you use the word grief? And can you walk us through both of those losses of identity that you spoke about on either end?

   2. EPEsther Perel38:15

      So grief is because I think every choice comes with loss. The consequence is the choice you didn't make. And even though you think this is the right choice and this is what I must do, the grief may be the fact that you didn't-- you were not capable of making this thing work, or that you had such high hopes and it didn't materialize, or that you have wished that you didn't make some mistakes that you made, or that you wish you had left sooner. There's lots of different ways, but there is no choice that doesn't have loss and therefore some grief attached to it, and that is the nature of the beast. That does not mean that you didn't make the right choice. In terms of heartbreak, it's a different part. Yes, some people experience heartbreak with such an ache, with such a sense of longing and such a sense of fracturing on the inside that they are, that their longing becomes obsessive, that they are trapped in rumination, and that it exi- experience like a withdrawal. That is not all breakups, but that is the extreme kind of breakup, which has been compared to an addiction because of the s- intense sense of withdrawal and because it takes place in the same centers in the brain.

9. 39:30 – 45:07

   Shifting Conflict Into Understanding

   1. JSJay Shetty39:30

      Mm. And you talked about there how, you know, trying to change the other person isn't necessarily the focus, but for so many of us, that seems to be the problem. The problem seems to be the other person's behaviors, their attitude, their approach to life, maybe their aspirations. I hear a lot of people say things like, "They don't dream enough. They don't dream..." "They dream too little," right? Like it's a-

   2. EPEsther Perel39:55

      Or too much.

   3. JSJay Shetty39:56

      Too much. Right. [laughs] That's it. Yeah. I hear some people say they dr- they don't dream enough, they dream too much.

   4. EPEsther Perel40:01

      Yes.

   5. JSJay Shetty40:01

      I hear people say, "Oh, they have too many friends," "They have no friends." Right? I see people at both ends of the spectrum, we always seem to have issues with how our partners live. And what I've learned, at least in my own personal reflection, and I've found, is that for a long time in my relationships, I often projected the way I lived onto my partner, and I-- we so strongly believe that the way we live is right, the way we were brought up is right, that we want our partner to kind of follow suit. And I always give this very small example from my own home, but [lips smack] in my house we used to eat, hang out, and then at the end of the night, we'd wash the dishes. In my wife's home, they used to eat, wash the dishes, and then hang out. And so when we got married and we started living together, and when we were having friends over or whatever it may be, in my mind, we're gonna eat, we're gonna hang out, and then we're gonna wash the dishes. In my wife's, uh, mind, she's thinking, "We're gonna eat, now we have to clean up, make sure everything's clean, and then we can hang out." And something as little as that can cause so much-

   6. EPEsther Perel41:07

      Friction

   7. JSJay Shetty41:07

      ... friction and bad communication and feelings of, "Oh, you don't care about me" and "You don't love me," and "You don't appreciate me," or "You don't value the work." And there's so much that comes from something, and that's just a very small example. But it's interesting to me that in that scenario, we both had not created a new belief system for our relationship, but were operating based on two old belief systems that we'd simply adopted. Uh, walk us through whether you agree, whether you disagree, whether you can edit that, reveal more to us about... I find so many of our challenges exist because we project our operating system onto someone else rather than creating one with them.

   8. EPEsther Perel41:49

      I like the way you call it the operating system. So I'm gonna take a sentence that you-

   9. JSJay Shetty41:53

      Please

   10. EPEsther Perel41:53

       ... highlighted and start from there. You said, "Here we were fighting about what's the right moment to do the dishes." But in fact, it-- what we were talking about is, "You don't care. You don't see me. You don't appreciate me. You want it your way." And what you're highlighting here is something that I've actually talked a lot about in a new course that I'm doing on conflict, which is exactly that. How do you turn conflict into connection? And one of the things I say is that it's not what you fight about, it's what you fight for.

   11. JSJay Shetty42:26

       Mm-hmm.

   12. EPEsther Perel42:26

       You were fighting for recognition. You were fighting for power and control. You were fighting for respect. You were fighting for trust and closeness. Underneath the fight, there are usually three sets of issues that we are actually fighting for, and that is power, trust, and value.

   13. JSJay Shetty42:45

       Mm.

   14. EPEsther Perel42:46

       So you don't value me. You know, I worked on this dish, on this cooking. I've made this nice meal. I prepared. I tried to be kind to your friends, and you don't value me.

   15. JSJay Shetty42:55

       So true.

   16. EPEsther Perel42:55

       Once you've understood that what is the hidden dimension that you are actually fighting for, the fight, the dishes, the when to do them, becomes a lot more clearA lot more clear, rather than it's not just I'm imposing my belief on you, and I want it to do my way because my way is the right way. That's... You may think this way, but the question is what happens when you have to confront yourself with someone who is different? I mean, everything about relationships is about straddling sameness and difference, you know? And when you are a couples therapist, it's very typical that people come to you and they're like a drop-off center, right? They tell you, you know, "Here, my relationship. Here's my partner. Let me tell you what's wrong with them, and maybe you can fix them."

   17. JSJay Shetty43:41

       [laughs]

   18. EPEsther Perel43:41

       "And I'll help you."

   19. JSJay Shetty43:42

       [laughs]

   20. EPEsther Perel43:43

       [laughs] "I'll be, I'll be your adjunct."

   21. JSJay Shetty43:45

       Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.

   22. EPEsther Perel43:46

       You know? On how to make my partner understand why my family's way of doing things is the best way of doing things. It's a very good way, and so then the question is, if you have to change your mind, does that mean that it's a loss of your identity?

   23. JSJay Shetty44:01

       Mm, mm.

   24. EPEsther Perel44:01

       Or can you actually experience that as an expansion, as something that you let in? How do you let the other person influence you without being constantly in a defense of your, you know, "This is my flag-"

   25. JSJay Shetty44:14

       Mm-hmm.

   26. EPEsther Perel44:14

       "... and here are my values or my operation system."

   27. JSJay Shetty44:17

       Yeah. I, I, I really, really relate to what you're saying, and I love how you've broken it down to what we're fighting for versus what we're fighting about. I think that's brilliant, and that's from your master class, right?

   28. EPEsther Perel44:27

       No.

   29. JSJay Shetty44:27

       No?

   30. EPEsther Perel44:27

       This is from my own new course-
10. 45:07 – 47:44

    What Power Struggles in Relationships Really Mean

    1. JSJay Shetty45:07

       at least when I speak to people about this, they feel so robbed, as you said, of their identity. But also, as you said, people feel robbed of their power, that if I give in-

    2. EPEsther Perel45:17

       Mm-hmm

    3. JSJay Shetty45:17

       ... to this other person-

    4. EPEsther Perel45:19

       Mm-hmm

    5. JSJay Shetty45:19

       ... my partner may be the more powerful one in the relationship.

    6. EPEsther Perel45:23

       Mm-hmm.

    7. JSJay Shetty45:24

       Or if I concede, then in the future when we're making decisions-

    8. EPEsther Perel45:28

       Mm-hmm

    9. JSJay Shetty45:28

       ... they're going to think I'm going to concede. And often that is the case, that people get into relationships because they think the other person is submissive or conceding to them or agrees with them on everything they say, and then one p- one day that person goes, "Wait a minute. I didn't realize I just gave up everything I care about for you." And so how does one learn how to practice that humility and giving up of power? Or is the solution a unified agreement, as you called it just there? What are we, what are we trying to unravel? How do we do that? Because I think that-

    10. EPEsther Perel46:01

        But you just betrayed yourself in the question.

    11. JSJay Shetty46:04

        Okay.

    12. EPEsther Perel46:05

        Your whole question is framed in power terms. Concede, acquiesce, give in, loss of self-

    13. JSJay Shetty46:12

        And that's how people feel

    14. EPEsther Perel46:13

        ... loss of power. Yes, some people feel this way. That is one frame for some people to enter into a relationship.

    15. JSJay Shetty46:21

        Mm-hmm.

    16. EPEsther Perel46:21

        But if I actually change the word power, I could go like this. In every relationship, you will find that there often is one person who is more afraid of losing the other, and one person who is more afraid of losing themselves.

    17. JSJay Shetty46:38

        Mm-hmm.

    18. EPEsther Perel46:40

        One person more afraid of abandonment and rejection, therefore more likely to acquiesce, to pacify, to placate, to say yes until maybe one day not, and one person more afraid of suffocation, and therefore they fight for their ideas-

    19. JSJay Shetty46:55

        Mm

    20. EPEsther Perel46:55

        ... their ways of doing it, the timing of the dishes. And that is less about power. That is more about the nature of connection.

    21. JSJay Shetty47:04

        Mm.

    22. EPEsther Perel47:05

        The majority of power struggles in a relationship are not power struggles. Power is the defense. The control battle is the way people are defending, trying to get something for something else that they are worried about.

    23. JSJay Shetty47:18

        Mm.

    24. EPEsther Perel47:19

        It's the surface behavior. You know, some people, when they're afraid, they fight, but the issue is not fighting. The issue is that they're actually afraid, and they're trying to deal with their fear by gaining control.

    25. JSJay Shetty47:30

        Mm.

    26. EPEsther Perel47:31

        So don't just go for what you see, 'cause what you see isn't necessarily just what it is.

    27. JSJay Shetty47:36

        Mm-hmm.

    28. EPEsther Perel47:37

        Go always looking at the, a level below, otherwise you're gonna have a lot of this.

    29. JSJay Shetty47:41

        Yeah. Now, the most painful

11. 47:44 – 51:25

    Why Breakups Make You Feel Unlovable

    1. JSJay Shetty47:44

       thing that we all feel when we go through a breakup is that we don't even lose faith in that person. We start to lose faith in love, and especially we start to feel not only do they not love us, we start to question whether we're worthy of love. We feel unlovable. We feel like, "Will I ever meet someone?" Maybe you're thinking this right now, "Will I ever meet someone who love me again?" First of all, they didn't even love you, but we think, "Will someone ever love me again?" We ask ourself the question, maybe you're thinking of this right now, like, "Will I ever meet someone who will commit to me, who will be loyal to me, who'll actually be with me?" If you're asking some of those questions, this next clip from Mel Robbins is gonna really resonate with you, because she talks about how to go through a breakup in a really practical way. Should you contact them? Should you try and make them jealous? All those emotions and feelings we go through, if you listen to this next clip, it's gonna help you make the right decisions. Take a look.

    2. MRMel Robbins48:49

       When somebody leaves that you love, you think you're unlovable. You actually think you're never gonna find it again.

    3. JSJay Shetty48:56

       Mm-hmm.

    4. MRMel Robbins48:57

       You hate yourself. That's why most of the advice about this is complete bullshit. Go love yourself? How the hell am I gonna go love myself when the person I love more than anything just left me?

    5. JSJay Shetty49:10

       Mm-hmm.

    6. MRMel Robbins49:10

       I hate myself. I despise myself. I am terrified of the day-

    7. JSJay Shetty49:14

       I messed it up

    8. MRMel Robbins49:14

       ... that they're gonna meet somebody.

    9. JSJay Shetty49:16

       Yeah.

    10. MRMel Robbins49:16

        I'm never gonna find that again. I'm never gonna have sex like that again. I'm n- Like, you hate yourself.And so telling somebody to just go on a revenge diet or you gotta love yourself, it's horrible. Instead, I want you to face reality. They left. Let them. And then let me grieve, and follow my therapist Anne Davin's advice. You have to do a 30-day detox, and if you are somebody that's been holding onto somebody that left a year ago, I guarantee you, you have not gone 30 days without listening to a voice memo or looking at a photo. You are keeping them alive, which is keeping you trapped in something that's dead. And your inability to let them go and let them leave, and then let me accept reality and start moving forward, and let me believe that the person that I am meant to meet, they are in the future. They're not in my past. And by the way, even if you kinda hold out secretly hope, it might be the person from the past. It might be, but they're not the version from back there.

    11. JSJay Shetty50:26

        And neither are you.

    12. MRMel Robbins50:27

        And neither are you. And so you have to, again, come back to where the power is. It's not in getting them back. It's not in making them jealous, because if you focus on making that person jealous or wah, blah, blah, where are you putting your power?

    13. JSJay Shetty50:41

        Them.

    14. MRMel Robbins50:41

        And something you can't control.

    15. JSJay Shetty50:43

        Mm-hmm.

    16. MRMel Robbins50:44

        You have to put your power here, and the reason why I love the 30-day rule and the 11-week mark is because it's the truth. This is gonna suck. The only way to get over someone and to go through heartbreak is to go through it. There's no avoiding it. There's only delaying it.

    17. JSJay Shetty51:00

        And we delay it.

    18. MRMel Robbins51:01

        Mm-hmm, because we don't wanna accept people as they are.

    19. JSJay Shetty51:05

        Yeah.

    20. MRMel Robbins51:06

        When somebody breaks up and leaves or cheats on you, they have just revealed who they are.

    21. JSJay Shetty51:11

        For sure.

    22. MRMel Robbins51:12

        And your inability to accept it, instead of explaining it away and living in a fantasy up here, that's what's keeping you from having and creating the love you actually deserve and want in your life.

12. 51:25 – 56:18

    How to Release Control and Finally Find Peace

    1. JSJay Shetty51:25

       I was talking to a friend recently, and this, everything you're saying is just so true, and it's, it's resonating so strongly to me. I was talking to a friend recently, and she was saying to me, "I wish my friend would just be honest with me. I wish this person who's just screwed me over, just let me down, would just be honest with me rather than pretending to be my friend."

    2. MRMel Robbins51:47

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JSJay Shetty51:48

       And I said to them, "They are being honest with you. Them lying is showing you their truth. That's how much they value you. Them pretending to be your friend is their truth."

    4. MRMel Robbins51:59

       Yeah.

    5. JSJay Shetty51:59

       You don't want the truth. Actually, you want them to [laughs] lie to you, and you want them to be someone else. You want them to become the honest person-

    6. MRMel Robbins52:06

       Right

    7. JSJay Shetty52:06

       ... but they're showing you that they're not an honest person. That is the truth.

    8. MRMel Robbins52:10

       It's true, and here's the other thing. Why are you pretending to be this person's friend-

    9. JSJay Shetty52:13

       Yeah

    10. MRMel Robbins52:14

        ... and not bringing it up?

    11. JSJay Shetty52:15

        Exactly.

    12. MRMel Robbins52:15

        Why is it on them-

    13. JSJay Shetty52:16

        Yeah

    14. MRMel Robbins52:16

        ... to tell you the truth?

    15. JSJay Shetty52:17

        Yeah.

    16. MRMel Robbins52:18

        Let them lie to you, and then come to the let me part.

    17. JSJay Shetty52:21

        Yeah.

    18. MRMel Robbins52:22

        If, aren't you pretending that you're their friend if you haven't brought this up?

    19. JSJay Shetty52:27

        Mm-hmm.

    20. MRMel Robbins52:27

        And you're actually holding that in your head, right?

    21. JSJay Shetty52:31

        Mm-hmm.

    22. MRMel Robbins52:32

        There are so many applications of this, Jay.

    23. JSJay Shetty52:34

        So many, so many.

    24. MRMel Robbins52:35

        It's just incredible, and the thing that I'm really, really excited about is that, you know, the other massive thing that I think this is gonna help people with is that one other way that you make people a massive problem is that you see somebody else's success or happiness or the things that they achieve in their life as somehow robbing you-

    25. JSJay Shetty53:01

        Ugh

    26. MRMel Robbins53:02

        ... of yours.

    27. JSJay Shetty53:02

        Yeah.

    28. MRMel Robbins53:03

        And the thing about life is that you're never playing against people. You play with them, and somebody else's success, happiness, love, like the things that they achieve, i- it's in limitless supply.

    29. JSJay Shetty53:15

        Mm-hmm.

    30. MRMel Robbins53:16

        And when you wrap your brain around the fact that happiness, love, money, like all of it, limitless supply. So other people can't block your way. They actually lead the way.

Episode duration: 56:18