Jay Shetty PodcastAfrica Brooke: "Thank Me After Watching This!" - Instantly DELETE Your Fear Of Rejection
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
120 min read · 23,762 words- 0:00 – 1:36
Intro
- ABAfrica Brooke
If you're in a certain room with people that you know you're very comfortable with, there are sides of you that you're going to be expressing versus not. We call it reading the room, understanding your environment, understanding your audience, understanding the timing of certain things. Saying everything and saying nothing are not the only options. Instead of saying this on social media, could I tell a friend? We believe that if something is happening socially or there's a crisis, people need to take their stance online. Self-censoring is actually when you rush to say something because you want to keep the mob at bay. If you repost this infographic, then we know you're a safe person, so the mob doesn't attack you. So it's actually not about whether someone believes what they're saying. We, we are more interested in the performance of things.
- SPSpeaker
The number one health and wellness podcast.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Jay Shetty.
- SPSpeaker
Jay Shetty.
- SPSpeaker
The one, the only Jay Shetty. [laughs] The gamut of themes that you cover in this book are what's so deeply needed for hearts-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
-and minds in the world right now, where we're living in an age of intolerance. We're living in a society of divide. We're scared of having uncomfortable conversations. We don't know how to talk to someone who thinks differently from us, and whether this is religiously, politically, even if it comes down to career-wise. Like, I think we have created a world where we have silos and groups. And so I wanna start off, I wanna dive into so many things with you, and-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
And I'll let you kinda share what you wanna share before we dive in.
- 1:36 – 3:29
How Cancel Culture Reflects Modern Day Tribalism
- SPSpeaker
But if I had to start somewhere, my question would be: how did we get here?
- ABAfrica Brooke
Even in, in writing this book, I had to lead with that question because it's one of the first questions that people ask me, and very specifically what we're talking about, we're talking about the psychology of what we call cancel culture, which is important for me to actually name this very early in our conversation. And I invite people, just as I said those words, to be honest about how that felt in your body because there are people that believe cancel culture is not real. It doesn't exist. It's simply people being held to account. And then there are some people that believe that it's a combination of public shaming, doxing, the inability to disagree well, self-righteousness. All of these are the more shadowy things. But what I really got to discover for myself in this three and a half years of writing this, but I would say the five years before it, it's not a new problem. And I don't know if you've found this, where sometimes we think what we're experiencing in our timeline is something new.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- ABAfrica Brooke
I think, I think it's just a modern manifestation of tribalism. I think we've always had silos and echo chambers and divide and polarization. It just looked very differently 20 years ago-
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
-30 years ago, 50 years ago. But I think just because something has existed for centuries, I think just because something might be primal, the biology of wanting to belong and what we're willing to do in order to belong, I don't think that means we need to normalize it not working. So I think there's a combination of things that I'll just kind of put forward to answer your question in a more direct way. It's not a new problem, so I can't say this is exactly when it started. It's ancient. It's tribalism. We're just experiencing it in a very different way in modern-day society.
- SPSpeaker
Mm, yeah, no, that's,
- 3:29 – 6:03
Is Expressing Your Truth Worth the Risk of Punishment?
- SPSpeaker
that's really well put. You're so right. We always feel our problems are unique-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah, we do
- SPSpeaker
... and that no one has felt them before, and that what we're experiencing is the most extreme version of it.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes. Yes.
- SPSpeaker
Where does that come from? Where is that feeling of, like, what I'm going through has to be the worst, most, highest-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... deepest?
- ABAfrica Brooke
The thing that you're pointing out, that question allows for me to actually have empathy for human beings and empathy for myself in realizing that all I know is my story. All I know is my experience. I am living in my body and my mind. I, I have no idea what anyone else is experiencing, so whether I feel grief or pain or arousal, joy, it's a very solitary experience. So I, I think it's so easy to believe that we are the only ones experiencing these things. Even when someone says, "I'm experiencing that too. I experience fear. I have a fear of being canceled, of being ostracized," of whatever. We can only understand it intellectually.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
But we never fully understand it in an embodied way. And something that I would also say around this is that when it comes to this thing that we call cancel culture, I truly believe that it's underpinned by self-censorship, which I'm sure we'll speak about in more detail. But self-censorship is essentially when you feel that you're going to be punished for expressing yourself honestly.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Whether it's even in how you dress. Let's say you're from a culture that's very conservative, but you've wanted to express yourself in a way that is deemed inappropriate, in a way that is deemed maybe men shouldn't wear this, women shouldn't wear this. Whatever it is, you believe that you're going to be punished for your expression, and I think the problem is that with technology we see that level of fear just in a very different way. So again, these things have always existed, but social media amplifies these things just in a way that is very, very abnormal.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
I, I would say actually that's one of the things that I really got to see for myself even before this book, that social media is making us behave and experience some of these things in a way we just never would.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
It's making us speak to each other in a way we never normally would, criticize in a way we wouldn't, put forward this idea of moral perfection in a way we wouldn't. But it's also making us self-censor in a way we just wouldn't in our everyday lives.
- SPSpeaker
We even say things like, "Oh, I'd never say this online."
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Or, "I really can't say this on Instagram, but I'll say it here," or, "This is the right room to talk about this."
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
We say things like that all the time. What is that line between-Self-censorship-
- 6:03 – 9:48
Understanding the Fear of Self-Censorship vs. Careful Thinking
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... and then this idea of trying to be fully transparent and authentic. Like this idea that-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm. Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... if you share everything, then you're authentic.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And if you hide something, then-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... where's self-censorship different to both of those?
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
Because it's not either/or.
- ABAfrica Brooke
I write a line where I say, and I start to use this as a mantra for myself, "Saying everything and saying nothing are not your only options."
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
I think that's very important.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Self-censorship is driven by fear. Again, you believe on some level, usually very unconscious, that you are going to be punished if you express what is true. If I am honest with you right now, you are going to ostracize me, you're going to abandon me, you're going to reject me. But now we're not just doing it to an individual level, you're doing it with strangers.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Faceless, nameless people. You're afraid that they're going to cast you out of the tribe, right? So it's, it taps into a very primal fear, which is so normal, it's just being expressed in a way that is not normal at all.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Right? So self-censorship is driven by fear, whereas I think the other side of that is, I call it social filtering. It's something that we do all the time. You and I, if we're meeting for the first time, there might be things that you just won't say or jokes that you just won't make because we don't know each other well enough just yet. If you're in a certain room with people that you know you're very comfortable with, there are sides of you that you're going to be expressing versus not. That's reading the room. We call it reading the room, understanding your environment, understanding your audience, understanding the timing of certain things. That is discernment-led. It's not led by fear. So I never want people to think that any of, not even just my work, but this conversation is about saying everything, because again, saying everything and saying nothing are not the only options. There is this beautiful gray where you get to say, "Actually, instead of saying this on social media, could I tell a friend?"
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Instead of thinking that I have to prove my goodness on social media, which is a huge thing, where we believe that if something is happening socially or there's a crisis, people need to take their stance online. But can I not take my stance or really think about what I feel offline, right? So it's, it's discernment-led.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Because another side of self-censoring is actually when you rush to say something because you want to keep the mob at bay-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- ABAfrica Brooke
... which we see absolutely all the time, this idea. And I, I think there's something quite religious about it. I always think of the story of, I believe it's the Passover in the Bible, where people have to put, is it blood outside of the door-
- SPSpeaker
Mm. Mm
- ABAfrica Brooke
... so that the Angel of Death doesn't take their firstborn son, or something along those lines. I sort of see what people are demanding for people to do on social media in the same way, that if you repost this infographic, then we know you're a safe person, so the mob doesn't attack you. So it's actually not about whether someone believes what they're saying, we, we are more interested in the performance of things. But again, if you're using discernment, you get to say, "I know I feel very scared right now and people are demanding that I speak up, but I'm not going to do that, because that's out of integrity. But maybe I can have a bit of a curiosity around why people need me to be educated on this and do it offline, have a conversation online."
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Whereas self-censorship is either not saying anything or pretending to be on board with what people want you to say.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- 9:48 – 15:22
Letting Go of the Identity Others Expect From You
- ABAfrica Brooke
on some level.
- SPSpeaker
Mm. I love how deeply you've thought about this, because-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... you know, being able to categorize, simplify, and dissect all of that requires a lot of structure and-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... and systems, because-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... the mind has always found it easier to just make it binary.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Right?
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
It's always been easier, and if you look at the structure of society, it kind of goes that way. You have Coke, you have Pepsi-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... then maybe you have RC Cola or whatever else. Like, but it's two choices. There's, like, two big places. You have McDonald's and Burger King. You have Domino's and Pizza Hut.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And yes, there's another one, but generally life has become divided by there's only two teams. Like, everyone's gonna hate me for saying this, but in London, Arsenal and Spurs, like, the bigger teams.
- ABAfrica Brooke
It's true. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Like, then you've got West Ham and Fulham and all the rest of it, no offense.
- ABAfrica Brooke
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Uh, but you get the point, and, and I'm a United supporter. But sports, food, brands, like-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... everything you look at, and then of course politics, religion, this way, that way, whatever, it's just all binary. And so we haven't really looked at life as a spectrum.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
We haven't looked at life-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes
- SPSpeaker
... as actually there's all of this gray. Actually, there's all of this middle ground. As you just said, there's a difference between authenticity, social filtering-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... uh, censorship, self-censorship.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
There's all these differences, and they're different grades, and the mind can just go, "Oh, that's too much work. I don't wanna do that."
- 15:22 – 18:32
Finding Freedom in Honest Expression
- SPSpeaker
You said something like when you, when you look to yourself, and you realize that you too wanted the binary. I think-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes
- SPSpeaker
... every one of us, if we looked at ourself, I agree with, with me too, I think we'd find we do always slot into-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... there are only two options all the time.
- ABAfrica Brooke
All the time.
- SPSpeaker
And so you constantly have to ask yourself, what's the third perspective?
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
This isn't something that, like, one day you get to a point, and from then you always see three perspectives-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Absolutely
- SPSpeaker
... because you're so wired on a human level.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
So I see that in myself, that in any conversation, I can so switch into the righteous mind, binary options, uh, cancel culture feeling.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Making big judgments about people over small points of information, and these are all lacking the third perspective. And so if I don't have this habit or this practice every single day, if I'm not developing it every single day and constantly pushing myself, it's not that one day I just get to a point where I'm now the all-knowing and all-seeing.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Exactly. Yeah, yeah. All of this, and, and the subtitle is Brave Expression in the Age of Intolerance. I never want people to think that brave expression or courage is some kind of point of arrival.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
And then you get there, and then you have Jay and Africa on the other side with a certificate to give you to say, "Well done." [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- ABAfrica Brooke
That, that just isn't how it works. And for me, I think that's so exciting to know that in every single moment, every single interaction, especially your micro-interactions, you get to practice being braver.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Because something I discovered is that I got to a point, maybe because I've been working at this for a while and understanding all of this stuff intellectually, putting it into practice, but mainly in my work and my career and conversations that I have in the public, but I've realized that my biggest work to do with brave expression and not self-censoring was in romantic relationships.
- SPSpeaker
Mm. Mm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
'Cause again, I had got to a point of feeling so confident and comfortable that if we're talking about societal things or whatever it might be, okay, I can, I can hold my own.
- SPSpeaker
Wow.
- ABAfrica Brooke
I cannot self-censor. But in romantic relationships, all of that would unravel.
- SPSpeaker
Wow.
- ABAfrica Brooke
I would feel uncomfortable saying my needs. I would get very defensive immediately in conflict. I... Because all of this is about conflict avoidance.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Are you willing to walk into conflict and to be with it in a healthy way, or do you avoid it and put up your defenses and self-righteousness?
- 18:32 – 21:50
How Empathy Begins With Letting Go of Judgement
- SPSpeaker
to avoid conflict.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And actually, I think we're trying to avoid conflict even within ourselves, and that's why we don't wanna ask the question, right?
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes. Yes, yes.
- SPSpeaker
Like, I know, and I've been thinking about this a lot lately, because I can kind of get into a lot of dismantling identity, and what I mean by that is-What most of us do subconsciously is we reaffirm the identity we've built for ourself
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
So if we've built an identity as a certain person, a certain career, a certain ethnic background-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... whatever it may be, we reaffirm that by who we spend time with, what we read, what we eat, and where we hang out. And I kind of do a lot of the opposite, where I'm, like, constantly questioning thoughts, beliefs, and values, and whether they serve me and whether they're accurate, and I feel like I've gone quite deep that sometimes I can get to a point of, like, I don't even know who I am anymore.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Right.
- SPSpeaker
And that can be very uncomfortable.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And so I understand why people don't wanna go there, because it can be so dismantling.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Where you've ... It's almost like imagine you had a piece of furniture and you took out all the screws and pieces and you just placed it down, and you're starting again to go, "What else can I build from this?" And you don't have the manual, and you don't have the IKEA guide and all the rest of it. Again, looking at them as extreme options, one option is I keep reaffirming who I am. The other option is I dismantle myself so deeply that I don't have a clue who I am.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Right.
- SPSpeaker
And it's like, well, again, how do we exist in this space of, well, I should know how to question parts of my values, upbringing, qualities, character, without dismantling myself, but also not continuing to just become who I am already walking on the path to become.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Oh, that's so good. That's so good, because it makes me think about another thing that I remember writing down, and there were a couple of these things. First one was around you can be understanding without accepting.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Right?
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Because I think, and this ties in so perfectly with everything that you're saying, but even if I m- look at it from a societal perspective, sometimes we're afraid to kind of truly honor someone's worldview because we think if I understand you, that means I'm accepting your worldview.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
But even a layer deeper than that, if I understand you, other people will think I'm accepting.
- SPSpeaker
Yes.
- ABAfrica Brooke
That seems to be, I think, one of the biggest things that I find to be the kind of point of conflict that we all have, that if I show empathy for, for someone from the other side, people will think I'm one of them.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
So we're dehumanizing each other, but in doing that, we're dehumanizing ourselves.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
And I don't think we even realize that, because that means someone else might be thinking that of you. Because whether we like it or not, we're all one. How we are with each other is how people will be with you. So when I think about what you're talking about in terms of constructing identity, it brings up this, the second thing that I was exploring for myself, which is can I still have my convictions and be open-minded, right?
- 21:50 – 26:33
Why We Struggle to Give Ourselves Grace
- SPSpeaker
I like that idea of having your convictions and still being curious.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes, yes.
- SPSpeaker
Because, because that feels ... And I, and I love that point you made, going back a couple, where you made about understanding someone doesn't mean accepting them.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Gosh.
- SPSpeaker
And if you're seen to understand someone, it doesn't mean you're accepting them-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Absolutely
- SPSpeaker
... by others. Why is it important, or how do we encourage people to recognize? Because I think we get so locked in our belief systems that I'm right, that person is so wrong.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And we don't even give them the opportunity, and I think that's where the fear comes from for so many people is-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... I won't even be given the opportunity-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... to be understood.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
I mean, even taking your romantic example.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Is there a part of you that has a fear? Because I like looking at it ... I always say to people, it's like the, the micro experiences are literally just blown up on the macro experiences.
- ABAfrica Brooke
They are.
- SPSpeaker
It's not, it's not that different.
- ABAfrica Brooke
No.
- SPSpeaker
Like, we think it is. Like, oh, I'm different in love and I'm different. But like you just said, it was like, no, self-censorship is something I can do in love or I can do it online.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes, yes.
- SPSpeaker
And, and it's the same feeling. It may be a different fear.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
It may be ... But there's a fear that I, I come across and that I see in people I talk to, which is I feel like I won't be given an opportunity to be understood, and I'll be judged immediately.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
So even if I try to share something in a very logical, rational, thoughtful, conscious, deeply honest way about whatever belief it is, whether it's one-on-one, whether it's one to many online, I feel like people are gonna judge it immediately for whether it's sincere, genuine, or not. And I know people who are listening and watching have probably written posts-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes
- SPSpeaker
... and edited, edited, edited-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Man
- 26:33 – 33:57
The Fear Behind Another Person’s Freedom to Speak
- SPSpeaker
You s- I mean, you're spot on. I, I ... That resonates so strongly.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
And anyone who's watching, or b- if you're listening, I literally sighed [laughs] like, I was, it was-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Man
- SPSpeaker
... it was so relieving to hear that, because I think that's kind of, you know, it's, it's a journey I've been on and a journey that I've, I've mentioned, and I said this to you earlier.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
This theme of yours has come up in podcasts, in miniature moments, and today I was excited because we're diving right into just this. I think for me, what's been really interesting is that I've lived so many paradoxical lives, and it took me forever to give myself grace to live as a paradox. It took me forever. I was self-critical. I was harsh on myself. I was, I was disconnected from myself. There was a sense of ridiculing myself, pointing fingers at myself, like there was a lot of that for, for many years. And I started to realize how much more layered, complex, and there was a third version of me.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And so, you know, when I lived as a monk, it was one of the best experiences of my life, and I would never change it. I would do it again, and it was so special. And if you would've asked me then, I thought I was gonna do that for the rest of my life. And at one point, when I had to admit to myself that not only could I not do that for the rest of my life, but that it wasn't my path-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... that was the first time I felt I really had to sit with giving grace to myself, because in my eyes, I'd failed. In my eyes, I had let people down. In my eyes, people would judge me for having failed. And I felt, "If I leave this, everyone's gonna think I've completely messed up, and that I'm a failure, and that I'm really weak," in my eyes. And by the way, there were, like, 10 people who knew where I was.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Right.
- SPSpeaker
So it wasn't, it wasn't about a scale thing. It was just a feeling of, "Not only am I letting myself down, everyone's gonna be let down by my actions." And I think everyone can relate to that, whether it's you had a breakup and you thought you were gonna marry that person, and all of a sudden you're thinking, "Gosh, everyone thought I was gonna marry that person too, and now they left me."
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
Maybe you've had that same experience because you had a job, and that job was going really well, and then you lost your job. And all of a sudden you're thinking, "Well, everyone thinks I'm, I'm a failure because I got, uh, made redundant," or, "I got fired," or whatever it is. Maybe you've had that experience because you had a dream that you told everyone you were gonna chase, and then it didn't work out. And now-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Right
- SPSpeaker
... so we've all had that experience of feeling canceled by ourselves and others.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm. Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
In that moment, I remember having to go deep and give myself permission to say, "No, I can evolve. I can re-become, and I can keep the parts of that experience that were true, but I can also let go of the parts of the experience that are no longer." And that doesn't take away from that experience. Then I had to do it again when I started ... Then I worked in the corporate world. I started to become a creator after that, and it was the same thing then. It was like, "Okay, now I'm actually gonna share," and I remember the start, people being like, "Well, you're promoting yourself. Like, this isn't aligned with-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Right
- SPSpeaker
... humility, and this isn't aligned with-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... being a grounded individual. How could you make a video with your-"
- ABAfrica Brooke
Because the binary, right? You were this, and by virtue of you being a monk and this, this ... Even if you've never said to people anything about your desires or the way you want to live, just by i-identity, you having that identity and that label attached to you means people can assign anything they want onto it, and you have to perform and to be that forever.
- SPSpeaker
Absolutely. And, and some of that is my own doing-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes
- SPSpeaker
... and I take responsibility for that.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
Like, some of that is definitely something I've created for myself.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- 33:57 – 40:34
Do Your Values Match the Life You’re Actually Living?
- SPSpeaker
hearing you say that, it sounds like there is a dual responsibility because there's a responsibility for us to be able to not censor ourselves, to be able to express ourselves, to be able to realize there's more options. But so much of that rests on not feeling like someone's gonna ostracize and judge us.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Absolutely.
- SPSpeaker
And I wonder, how do we start within ourselves, as you said, that's really where it starts.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
You said a few moments ago that because people don't give themselves grace for their own contradictions, they can't have grace for other people's contradictions.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
What is the process of giving ourselves grace for our contradictions?
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Because I think almost sometimes we don't even see them.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
Like, I think sometimes we're just so self-unaware, and it's so funny. I, I consider myself to be quite a self-aware person.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And just two weeks ago, I was sitting there, and someone gave me some honest piece of feedback, and I sat with it for the rest of the day, and I was like, "I am so self-unaware."
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Like, I'm so self-unaware. And I thought about this weekend. I, again, got some good feedback from someone, and I was thinking, "Yeah, like, I don't even see how me acting that way could be perceived that way."
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
But it is.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And whether that's my intention or-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... that's how it's perceived.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
But I'm so self-unaware, I'm just, I'm not conscious of that.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And so even as someone who considers themselves very self-aware, I would consider myself to be not that aware. And so I think a lot of us are so self-unaware-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... where we don't even know we have a contradiction. We're like, "Nope, I've always signed up for the same thing."
- ABAfrica Brooke
Uh-huh.
- SPSpeaker
"I've always voted the same."
- ABAfrica Brooke
[laughs]
- 40:34 – 45:17
You Don’t Have to Heal Everything at Once
- SPSpeaker
I think when I hear these things, I recognize how the biggest challenge with all of this is time.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
Because it all takes time-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes. [laughs] Yes
- SPSpeaker
... to really sit there and look at what is the third perspective.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Takes time to ask yourself, "What are my embodied values, and what are my desired values?"
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
"And what's the difference?" It takes time.
- ABAfrica Brooke
It does.
- SPSpeaker
And, and I find that everyone is so time poor today, and that's why we're living in the society we are living in.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Do you think we're time poor?
- SPSpeaker
I think we think we're time poor as in-
- ABAfrica Brooke
We think we're time poor
- SPSpeaker
... yeah, yeah, and, and, and-
- ABAfrica Brooke
'Cause I promise you, we will watch Love Is Blind.
- SPSpeaker
And talk about it.
- ABAfrica Brooke
[laughs] The whole series in a day.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
- ABAfrica Brooke
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. No, it's true, and, and that-
- ABAfrica Brooke
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... I mean, I, I, I was looking at studies recently because I was talking about how couples, there's a wonderful team member of mine who named one of my presentations, uh, her name's Annie, and it's called, um, it's called I Miss You When You're Next to Me. Uh, it's something she says-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... to her husband, and it's this idea of how-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Oh, wow
- SPSpeaker
... we miss people when we're next to them because we're not really with them because we're watching TV or whatever it may be. And I looked into all of these studies which talked about just how much television, again, not television, how much we're watching streaming platforms-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... every night with our partners, but we think we don't have enough time with them.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Huh.
- 45:17 – 49:02
How Negativity Bias Shapes Our Perception of the World
- SPSpeaker
It's, it's a really interesting thing you just said about the shadow and the, the size of the toddlers.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
And it's-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... it makes me remember, like, I know a lot of us would feel that the 1% is so loud, and so the 1% of people that are trolling, negative, and even that word, it would be good to discuss that word.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Same as cancel culture.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
But I feel like that language around, like, the comment section, as we all know on YouTube, Instagram, wherever you are, TikTok, Twitter, like, it's almost like it's so loud. So you could have... And I always look at this paradox, again, where it's like you could have a million likes on a post and 100,000 shares and 10,000 negative comments, but because the comments are qualitative in some regard-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... your energy goes straight there. If you let social media teach you about the world, it will have you believing that everyone in the world is irrational, crazy, and just not a good person. That's only the 1% because they're loud, but that's not everyone.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Not at all.
- SPSpeaker
Like, I don't meet... I meet more reasonable people on a daily basis that I don't know-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... than unreasonable people.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And I, I'm hoping most people would say that.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
Maybe not, but at least our belief system is, "Oh, my gosh, everyone in the world is absolutely-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... against me." The mob-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... in my mind is-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... really loud. So how do we reconcile that kind of proportionality and ratio of our belief system? Because we give more weight and value to the mob-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... than we do to humanity.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
Because... Does that make sense?
- ABAfrica Brooke
It does.
- 49:02 – 53:46
How Ego Blocks Curiosity in Everyday Moments
- SPSpeaker
I find that to be the block that, at least, at least I find it-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... I'd love to hear what people think.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
I find it to be the block, and we, we mentioned this when we were just hanging out earlier. So when Africa walked in, me and her were talking about what kind of experience we like when we do interviews and we meet new people and we go on podcasts and things, and I was talking about the kind of experience I like to create for guests and what kind of mood I like to set-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... and why I do things the way I do. And when I was doing that, I felt a creeping in feeling of ego and pride, and-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... I was like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, I know exactly what I'm doing." And, and there was that inside of me, and then my egoless mind started to get involved in the conversation, and third perspective. I was like, "Wait a minute."This is the exact reason we're having this conversation with Africa
- ABAfrica Brooke
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... is to get rid of the righteous mind, like this belief system that one is better or worse.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
But we really get into the space really in a nuanced way, and through all my monk training, I got really good at knowing even the tiniest moments when the ego was kind of coming to the forefront-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Oh, wow
- SPSpeaker
... because that was such a big part of the training we had. And even then, it's so hard to calm down and connect with the ego and, and, you know, create harmony with it. But I find that the biggest challenge is the people that do say what they feel and do express boldly believe that they are fully right.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
And those of us that stay quiet, we also believe that we're fully right. So there's this belief of, like, oh, if you're joining cancel culture and I'm not, then I'm right.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
I'm actually doing the right thing.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
And the person who's diving into cancel culture is going, "Of course I'm doing the right thing" So the belief is how can we even try to understand someone because we already think what we're doing is right. If what I think I'm doing is right from the get-go, I have no need or space to understand you because you're already wrong.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
And so that to me is at the, at the root-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... of why there's no space to understand, why there's no space to reflect, why there's no space-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... to listen to you because I already feel I'm better in, in a really-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... subconscious way, whether I'm not talking or whether-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- 53:46 – 1:07:30
Why You’re Not Entitled to Silence Others
- SPSpeaker
It's such an interesting thing. I was... You made me remember a experience I had back at school when I used to be part of my... This is gonna sound super geeky, but yeah, I was part of my debate team-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... at school. And, uh-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Oh, that's good
- SPSpeaker
... and I really enjoyed it because it was such a great learning experience. So I remember one presentation, I was probably like, I don't know, 14 years old or something like that.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm. Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Like a young teenager. May- maybe 15. And we had this debate set up. I can't remember the motion. And I made a point that completely destroyed the other person's argument, and the whole... All my friends and everyone in the audience went crazy-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... and was just like, "Oh, you showed him" Like, you know, it was like this big, like, kind of moment. I was feeling myself and-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... thinking I was amazing. And I talked to my teacher afterwards, who asked to see me after the presentation, and I'd g- I'd won the debate.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And he said to me, he goes, "Jay, did you win the debate today?" And I was like, "Yeah" Like, he, no, he said to me, "How did, how did it go for you today?" I was like, "Well, we won. Like, it was great" And he was like, "No, you didn't win" And I was like, "What do you mean? Like, didn't you just see everyone applaud and like go, you know, go crazy?" And he said, "No" He said, "You, you won the crowd, but you lost the debate" And, and I was like, "What do you mean?" And, and he, and he said, "Well," he said, "a good debate is where you have a deep understanding of the other person's space-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... and place and insight. It's not that y- what you're saying proves them wrong. It's that you understand their argument so deeply that you're able to dismantle it on its own. It's not about yours being better."
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
"It's about you actually being to understand it so deeply that you're able to show that parts of it don't add up."And, and it was a really nuanced, profound point for me because I just thought if you win the crowd, then of course you win. And I think that's-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... what the society we live in today, where it's like if someone wins over the crowd, even if they're completely wrong, we're okay with it.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Right? Even if someone acts completely immorally or we don't even know the truth, we don't know what happened behind closed doors, if they win the crowd, like if someone wins it on social media and, and they, they're in a legal case or whatever it is-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... and on social media it all goes well, even if we have no idea what that person's moral character is, we, we're with them. Uh, and you see this on shows, you see this everywhere.
- ABAfrica Brooke
On everything.
- SPSpeaker
And again, I, I'm not saying we should judge them, I'm just saying we all believe if you win the crowd, you won. And, and so we've lost the ability to actually say, "Well, no, do I deeply understand? Can I actually get context of this person?"
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes. That just landed so, so strongly for me. Thank you for sharing that anecdote on the debate because it's... I actually write about this and speak about it a lot because it's a big part of my story and my experience, but a lot of what you're saying directly parallels what I experienced in 2020. As I've said at many points throughout this conversation, and kind of referenced to that point in time, but didn't get very specific, 2020 is when there was a big conversation around race relations after the killing of George Floyd in the US, and it ignited really important conversations that have transformed the way we speak about race, the way we interact with each other, the way we have started to just notice our conscious and unconscious biases. But I, again, at that time, had already been doing the work that I do and understanding self-sabotage, self-censorship, how do we have brave conversations, et cetera, but this is all identity, right? Even a- as I'm saying it right now, it's, I have been studying, I've been learning, I've been whatever. But there were aspects of what I was doing and grounded in that was just from the neck up, but hadn't been actually embodied, and I got to learn that in 2020. Because I was one of the people, for a very short time but a very intense time, demanding that people speak up about what was happening in the States. And again, I use that language very specific because I'm not taking in the context of where people are in the world. What if, Africa, someone doesn't have any idea of what has actually happened? What if it's someone from India or Kenya or Zimbabwe or... and I'm expecting them to speak up. Speaking up meaning you have to do it online, it has to be a performance, you have to post something that is going to make me feel like, "Okay, you've done this the right way." So it's all ego. Because who am I as a individual person in West London in my house expecting the world? When you actually look at, at and speak about these things in this way, you realize just how it's not only self-righteous, but entitlement is a part of it as well.
- SPSpeaker
That's the right word, yeah.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Right?
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm. That's the right word.
- ABAfrica Brooke
I am entitled to your opinion, and th- th- there's just so, there was just so much at play for me that was really humbling. So I was one of the people specifically on the Tuesday where people were being told to post a black square. I think most people listening to this will, will understand, and it was so out of character. But I think I have to even do a self-correction in real time to say actually no, it was a demonstration of what my character actually was. I thought that it would be out of character for me to do something like that, but it was in character in a way. But I, I was pretty much just demanding that people speak up about race in the way that I wanted them to, and you could look at it and say, "Yeah, you were inviting people to do something that was right and very important," but I was doing it in an extremely intolerant way.
- 1:07:30 – 1:11:36
Blame and Shame Don’t Lead to Real Change
- ABAfrica Brooke
with that.
- SPSpeaker
Thank you so much for sharing that.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
I mean, it's so powerful to kind of dive into such a specific moment in time-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes, yes
- SPSpeaker
... that kind of embodies and encapsulates this whole-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... message, and to see it play out like that, and for you to have that level of intricate-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... self-awareness, which is what it takes to kind of question and reflect and pick apart and dissect your own self and-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Absolutely
- SPSpeaker
... and how you've done that, that takes so much courage and vulnerability. And, and even the way you shared it, I'm, I'm sitting there listening to you goingThat's what it takes
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
That's what it takes. That's what it takes. And it shocks me still to this day that we think that blame and shame and guilt are good ways of changing people.
- ABAfrica Brooke
I know.
- SPSpeaker
Ourselves included.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
It's like shame, guilt, and blame are rarely good techniques or approaches to creating change within ourselves or others.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
When was the last time you changed your partner because you blamed them for something?
- ABAfrica Brooke
Right.
- SPSpeaker
When was the last time you got through to your child because you shamed them for something?
- ABAfrica Brooke
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
When was the last time you made yourself eat better, work out more, or live better because you guilted yourself into it? Maybe you did for a couple of days.
- ABAfrica Brooke
It's not sustainable though.
- SPSpeaker
It's not sustainable.
- ABAfrica Brooke
It's complete... You're, you're so right. They're just such ineffective strategies. I was speaking to my siblings about this the other day, and we were talking about... We were speaking with a, with a group of friends actually, and we're all African. We're all African in this setting, and we were laughing about being hit as children.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
'Cause it, it was just the, the normal-
- SPSpeaker
Normal in Indian families, yeah.
- 1:11:36 – 1:14:37
How to Truly Understand People You Disagree With
- SPSpeaker
at the same time-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... because there's a, there's a sense of what I'm getting from listening to you that when we see other people's shadows, we're so deeply reminded of our own-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... that we have to project this belief that theirs exists bigger than ours. Or there's a feeling of if someone shows their shadows, it gives me the excuse to continue to show mine.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
And so your-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Phew
- SPSpeaker
... imperfection allows me to continue to be imperfect-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... and not grow.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah. It's both.
- SPSpeaker
You know? Yeah, it's both. It's both.
- ABAfrica Brooke
It's both.
- SPSpeaker
It's both. And, and it-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Oh, wow.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- ABAfrica Brooke
I've never heard anyone put it in that way. Yeah. Ooh, this is good. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- ABAfrica Brooke
Oh, wow. I'll, I'll give an example of the last one you've just said.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Like, um, almost like if you show your shadow, it's a permission slip for me to-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- ABAfrica Brooke
... keep showing mine without ever questioning it-
- SPSpeaker
Yes
- ABAfrica Brooke
... or ever... Yeah, yeah. Sometimes people that are uncomfortable with my work, which by the way, I, you can tell me, I think it's fairly non-controversial. I think my w- What am I really saying? I'm saying that we need to be willing to understand differing viewpoints without feeling like we have to take them as a part of ourselves. I'm saying that we are braver than we realize. We need to push back against this culture that says we need to be con- constantly monitoring what we're saying and self-editing. I, I just don't believe we need to be doing that. But there are some people who will say, "Well, Africa, do you think some really dangerous people could come across your work, and they will use it as an excuse to say-"
- SPSpeaker
Yes
- ABAfrica Brooke
... "really hateful things, to say really et cetera things," whatever the thing might be. And then I always come back to why do we always have to see... Why is that the default response, right? Why do we always have to go to those extremes? Are you an extreme person who's resonating with my work? Why do you believe that you can be nuanced, but other people can't be?
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Why do you believe that you can take what you need from what I say, but other people can't? It's that thing that you were saying before around how we believe that our approach is the best way. Only I can decipher this work, but what if someone dangerous comes ac-
- 1:14:37 – 1:19:19
From Cancel Culture to Collective Sabotage
- SPSpeaker
I meet more kind, reasonable, thoughtful-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes
- SPSpeaker
... genuine, sincere-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes
- SPSpeaker
... people on a daily basis than I do the opposite.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
But the opposite feels so loud online-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... and so activated online and so amplified online-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... that you can very well believe-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... that kind people don't exist.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And I can honestly say that as I, as we're talking about this, I, I wanna understand from you why collective sabotage is the right terminology that you coined for cancel culture.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
And I, and I wanna dive into this. I've been waiting to get into it 'cause I've, I've really been wanting to honor each thing we're discussing and not-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Absolutely
- SPSpeaker
... run through 'cause it's sparking so many thoughts. And there's a, there's a sense of cancel culture holds people accountable.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
It holds people responsible. It helps people own up to their mistakes, or not even own up, it helps people... It helps justice-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... uh, be, be served. How could that possibly collective sabotage?
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
How could that po- how could that possibly be a bad thing?
- ABAfrica Brooke
Even if we just look at the word, let's start with the word cancel, and just try to think of the, the, the sort of synonyms we can think of.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
To cancel is to delete. It's to eject, and then you can go even further, it's to reject. It's to ab-
- SPSpeaker
To end
- ABAfrica Brooke
When something is canceled, it's ended.
- 1:19:19 – 1:21:07
How Constant Apologies Undermine Your Voice
- SPSpeaker
I fully agree with you. I, I don't think-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... anyone's ever thought to define it-
- ABAfrica Brooke
No
- SPSpeaker
... or step back and look at it. And, and it just feels like, yeah, we'll jump on the bandwagon. Like-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes
- SPSpeaker
... this person's canceled.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
They go, "Oh, weren't they canceled? Oh, oh, isn't it over for them?" Like-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Right?
- SPSpeaker
And, and it's like I always look at that, and I think about even, um, even some of the criticism that the England football team took in the Euros.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes, yes.
- SPSpeaker
And a lot of them came out and were just like, "Guys, we're trying to win."
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
"And it affects our mental health, especially-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes
- SPSpeaker
... young players." And it was so interesting. We live in a society that says mental health's the most important thing. But then if we perceive what someone has done is wrong, we're happy to destroy their mental health.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Instantly.
- SPSpeaker
Instantly.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah, yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And I go back to that perceive what they've done is wrong.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Because some of it, you know, obviously there's illegal activity.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
There's, there's, there's things that are just, you know, that, that need-
- ABAfrica Brooke
And again, that's common sense.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- ABAfrica Brooke
We still get to use... I love what you're saying because it's something that I also find, though, that people are now needing to find themselves doing in conversation, is to cushion everything and saying, "But I don't mean this. These are just-
- SPSpeaker
Oh, yeah. I do. Yeah, yeah. [laughs]
- ABAfrica Brooke
No, no, 'cause I've found myself having to do that. Then I'm likeNo Africa
- 1:21:07 – 1:25:15
Why We Must Let Everyday Moments Breathe
- ABAfrica Brooke
Right?
- SPSpeaker
For sure. I, I, I saw the best version of it.
- ABAfrica Brooke
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
It's funny you say that.
- ABAfrica Brooke
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
So there was this video that went viral a few years ago. I, I think it was made by maybe, maybe it was an HR company or it was-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... it was, it... I c- I can't remember the company, but they made this video. It was a few years ago. And the concept of the video was there were interviewers interviewing interviewees for a potential job.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
So let's say you were applying for this job and I was interviewing you, so I was asking you interview questions like, "Give me an example of when you've been proactive," and, "How would you deal with pressure," et cetera. And then some of the questions became, "How would you deal with pressure 24 hours a day?" And then the questions went on to say things like, "The asset that you're assisting requires constant, uh, attention. How would you deal with that?" So they started asking all these questions, and the interviewees were quite, like, frazzled by some of those questions. They seemed extreme. They were like, "That sounds hard," like, "That's really tough. That's difficult." And then the interviewer would said, "We were interviewing for the job of mother," and it was a Happy Mother's Day video-
- ABAfrica Brooke
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... to, to honor mothers and just how hard they work.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
And it was this beautiful celebration of, like, what a mom's job profile would look like-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... and just making people aware, and the whole video was just Happy Mother's Day. Like, that was the point of it. Beautiful video, millions and millions of views-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... shares, et cetera, and the top comment on that video was, "What about dads?" And, and it was really interesting, you know, and, and, and I looked at that and I was like, "Oh, fascinating," like... And it was Mother's Day when [laughs] it was made and posted. And again, I was thinking, I was like, I understand that. Like, I do understand. Dads are important.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
Dads are valuable. There are some people who don't have moms, who have been raised by their dads.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
Uh, I do think that men are involved and are doing incredible-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... things at home, and, and, and I get it. If I was a dad, I'd probably feel that way, too, but it's Mother's Day-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... and it's a Happy Mother's Day video. Like, can we let that breathe?
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Can we, can we let that have its space and not have to make it about us? So that gives me an example-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... of what you just said, I think.
- 1:25:15 – 1:29:33
Self-Expression Should Not Be a Performance for the Internet
- SPSpeaker
the thing. What, what you, what you're hitting, like, really strongly there is that's what we're doing. We're constantly comparing common sense to the extreme.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Oh.
- SPSpeaker
Right?
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
That's why your point about not apologizing-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes
- SPSpeaker
... is so important, because most of us live in a common sense. Like, I would honestly say that if anyone who listens to my podcast regularly-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... or has read my books, I feel knows that Jay has good intentions-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Absolutely
- SPSpeaker
... is a good person who cares, who wants to do good in the world, because you hear me and know me deeply enough. And so for those individuals, I actually don't need to clarify-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes
- SPSpeaker
... at all, because for the people who are deeply involved in my work and embedded, and the millions of people that do that, I feel like you know me and, and you know who I am.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
If I have to caveat everything for someone who may come across a 30-second clip of me or a edited piece about me, or whatever it may be, if I'm speaking only to those people, now I'm gonna constantly speak in disclaimers, caveats-
- ABAfrica Brooke
That's absolutely-
- SPSpeaker
... and, and everything else, because I'm now catering-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... for the 1%.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
I'm not catering for the majority of people who are living with common sense, who are not living in extremes, who are not judging every word I say and analyzing everything, but we're all scared of that clip being made of us.Where something's taken out of context, and what does it mean when it's out of context? It's been used in an extreme way. Because in context, it was not extreme, and it's only extreme when it's out of context. And I feel like, of course-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes
- SPSpeaker
... the f- the ironic part of all of this is a lot of platforms have built their platform by being extreme.
- ABAfrica Brooke
I really want anyone watching or listening to know that this still applies to them, whether or not they have a platform or not.
- SPSpeaker
For sure, yeah.
- ABAfrica Brooke
But, but, but that's the most interesting thing with all of this, in that everything has sort of changed, in that everyone is now seen as a platform.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
That's the-
- SPSpeaker
Mm, mm, mm
- ABAfrica Brooke
... that's the part of this that makes it most interesting for me-
- 1:29:33 – 1:37:54
Don’t Build an Audience That Won’t Let You Evolve
- SPSpeaker
I got really lucky. I was the mediator in my family growing up-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Okay
- SPSpeaker
... since I was, like, 10 years old.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Okay.
- SPSpeaker
And so I early on had to listen to everyone and make sense of it in order to help everyone.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And so I've just done that for so long that I don't know any other way.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
I, I don't actually know how not to show grace or not to give someone space to understand-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes
- SPSpeaker
... because I've had to do it for so long. And I saw it to be the most valuable way-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm. Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... to create a sense of understanding of nuance, understanding of the layered nature of our world, understanding the complexity I have within. And so it was really fascinating for me because as I started to give myself permission to be all of myself, and I knew at the beginning of my journey that if I, I could've easily played into the caricature of what a personal growth, self-help individual should look like-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... should do, and should act like. And I chose very clearly, I was like, "I'm purposefully not going to dress spiritual."
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Because-
- ABAfrica Brooke
I love that
- SPSpeaker
... that to me is not what I learned. Like, it wasn't about what I wore.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Or it's not about my hairstyle, or it wasn't about the length of my beard. Like, all of those things were not the definition of practicing wisdom or learning the path or following a path. And I was like, also as a kid who grew up in London, I like streetwear.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And even though I became a monk and gave that all up at one point, when I came back to reality, I was like, "That's still a part of me. I'm still a kid who grew up in North London, and so I'm gonna let that breathe." And at the same time, I love meditating every day, and I do that for two hours a day. I'm gonna let that breathe.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
And at the same time, I don't care to drink anymore, and so I'm gonna-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... let that breathe. And, oh, I actually still love football. Like, it's still the f- first love of my life, and I love-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... watching football. I'm gonna let that breathe. And, oh, you know what? I actually do like certain comforts and things. Okay-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes
- 1:37:54 – 1:42:51
Are You Living a Truth You Never Chose?
- SPSpeaker
So, so beautiful and, and fully agree. Like, I can honestly say that too, that that's what makes me believe the work is happening-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes
- SPSpeaker
... when we can sit in the discomfort and, and when we can look beyond also unsaid cliches. Like, I remember, I've, I've never been a proponent of the old cliche of money doesn't buy happiness. I've, I've never w- written about it in books. I've never spoken about it. I'm never like, "Hey, you should never achieve something."
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Like, that's not who I am. That's not even my thought process. And-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... some- but sometimes the, the background of monk, people assume that's what you believe.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Right.
- SPSpeaker
And it's so funny, I've never said it, but it's an assumption.
- ABAfrica Brooke
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
I've never said it. It, it doesn't exist. Like, I don't-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Wow
- SPSpeaker
... I've never, I've never said that because I actually believe that people need to change their relationship with money.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
They need to be more abundant with it.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Me too.
- SPSpeaker
And that's not just money. It's just one thing.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Me too.
- SPSpeaker
But whatever else it may be, I don't believe a-... simple life and an ambitious life are incongruent.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
I don't believe that a minimalist life and extravagance are incongruent.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
I, I don't believe-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes
- SPSpeaker
... those. I, I, I actually believe that the paradox is where the magic is. I, I actually believe that... I was saying to someone yesterday, you need the perfect amount of anxiety and the perfect amount of inspiration to win. You can't have a life just of inspiration-
- ABAfrica Brooke
No
- SPSpeaker
... and you can't have a life just of anxiety. And so even in those, the paradox is where you win because you need a bit of pressure, and then you need a bit of purpose, and you need both. If you just had purpose, it wouldn't work. It, it needs both. And so similarly, I think we draw from these old cliches and these old traditions and old belief systems-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes
- SPSpeaker
... and project them into the new world, and I feel like that limits us from allowing ourselves to grow and others to grow because we do the same to ourselves, where it's like, "No, no, no, but you've always been a simple person." And this really hit me when I, I heard this, this statement of, like, how in the Bible it says... the common quote that's always given is, "Money is the root of all evil."
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- 1:42:51 – 1:44:41
Does One Narrative Define Your Whole Reality?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Whereas people see that as confidence or arrogance-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes
- SPSpeaker
... so it's not seen as vulnerability-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes
- SPSpeaker
... because we've created these outer shells of what qualities look like.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm. Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
It... We've created these external avatars and embodiments of what humility should look like-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Right
- SPSpeaker
... or what arrogance looks like or what good character looks like.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
And it's like, but rarely is it that obvious.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
Like, rarely can you... You can't see someone's heart.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Like, you can't see someone's soul. You're not seeing someone's genuineness or sincerity-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... through a snapshot of their life. I always think about this example of if you were running late to the movie theater and you walked into maybe even the wrong screen, you might think that the hero is the villain and the villain is the hero.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes. Yes.
- SPSpeaker
How do you know? I remember there was this... I, I think it actually was. Yeah, and it's like, how, how do you know who the character is-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... because of one snapshot of their life? And I think cancel culture and so much of it is based on this idea-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... of here's a snapshot of this person. I'm not gonna give you the full story-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... and the full picture.
- ABAfrica Brooke
It reminds me of when I was doing this training and there was a photo. It was, it was just about that. It was about context, essentially, where there's a photo of a woman on the floor and a man sort of standing up with his hand there, and immediately you think that he has pushed her onto the floor, but then they widened the photo and you sort of see that she had tripped and she had fallen-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- ABAfrica Brooke
... and he was actually helping her up.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
And it reminds me of exactly that.
- 1:44:41 – 1:48:00
Is It Ever Justified to Cancel Someone?
- SPSpeaker
asking.
- ABAfrica Brooke
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
And that's the, and that's where the... I think that's the third perspective is so much of our perspectives are built from one narrative.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
I think that's the point-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes
- SPSpeaker
... that our understanding is about people, beliefs, what's happening in the world, are all generally built from one narrative.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
So-What I always ask people to do is reflect on like what would it feel like if you were judged on your worst moment?
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
What would it feel like if you were judged on your worst day? And what would it feel like if you could never, ever come back from that because you'd be canceled for it? And what did help you become accountable?
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
What has helped you become responsible?
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
What has helped you have behavior change? Because we also wanna take that into account. What has it been in the past that has really encouraged you to go, "You know what? I'm gonna be better. I'm gonna change."
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
I'm sure it wasn't you being told by a family member, "Never come back to the house."
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
I'm sure it wasn't someone saying to you like, "Don't ever come back here," and, "You're not wanted here."
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Reflect on that, and then also reflect on just... That negativity, negativity bias is so strong, and I wanna ask you two questions, not that I think we haven't answered or maybe we have.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
But I think they're important to ask because I see them being what people are thinking about. So two questions. The first is, when is it okay to cancel someone? And second question, is there anyone who doesn't deserve grace?
- ABAfrica Brooke
I will answer that from my current definition of cancellation, which is exile, deletion. It implies that there is no rehabilitation. It also presupposes that people cannot change, ever. So by virtue of those things and me actually believing that it's possible to transform, me believing that rehabilitation is very important because it's the only way people can actually integrate that shadow that we're punishing them for, so I, I don't believe, I don't believe that to be true at all. However, I think we can address the harm that has been caused, and I think we have to give the person, whether we like it or not, the grace, and grace does not mean acceptance of what has been done. It just doesn't. Grace means I'm going to humanize you so I can understand, and in understanding, I'm able to give a solution or give myself a solution and peace that is actually sustainable instead of believing that you have to be punished for the rest of your life. Again, that snapshot in time. And I know that what I'm saying is very difficult-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- ABAfrica Brooke
... because it can be applied to so many things, but I encourage you to use common sense. I encourage you to use discernment, and I also think it's okay to have your convictions where you can't be moved.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Say, "You know what? I could be understanding around this, but I'm gonna choose to stay in this conviction."
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
I think we get to do that when it comes to things like abuse, when it comes to human rights. When it comes to things that is just so disturbing and unfathomable, I have to make peace with the fact that people will deal with it how they wish to.
- 1:48:00 – 1:52:43
How to Give Grace Without Losing Your Boundaries
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. I, I, I fully agree with you, and, and I, I, I'm glad I asked it because I always-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... wanted to get that kind of like-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... the encapsulated thought process, almost of the belief system.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And it's good to hear it that way because I, I agree with you. I think that humans have amazing ability to transform when given the opportunity.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
I also think that so much of the culture today writes people off over very little information, inaccurate, incomplete information, or misrepresented information.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Like, it's not even as clear, and also in not understanding what you w- what someone was even trying to say in the first place.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Absolutely.
- SPSpeaker
And so it's coming from such a uneducated-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes
- SPSpeaker
... guess often. And, and like you said, going back to where we started, it's what we do to ourselves.
- ABAfrica Brooke
It's what we do to... All of it.
- SPSpeaker
We beat ourselves up.
- ABAfrica Brooke
If you didn't beat yourself up so much or shame yourself, often in unconscious ways, by the way, because I think so many people-
- SPSpeaker
Yes
- ABAfrica Brooke
... again, we have so many beliefs about who we are, what we stand for, et cetera, but our actions, especially our default actions and default responses-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- ABAfrica Brooke
... will show us what we're really working with underneath.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
But a lot of us do live in shame.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
A lot of us are very embarrassed about some of the things that we have done and said, the people that we were in the past. A lot of us are faced with our contradictions. We don't know what to do with them because we have... We live according to labels, you know, whether it's ethnic labels, political labels, identity-based labels. So you believe that because I'm this label, I shouldn't think in this way.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
I shouldn't speak in this way. Why do I kind of like this person? So you, you're always grappling with so many things, but what do you do? You just shove them down-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- 1:52:43 – 1:55:55
Most of What Feels Urgent Today Won’t Matter Tomorrow
- SPSpeaker
chapters in this book. I wanna name a few-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... chapters are my favorite that when you get the book I want you to dive into deeply. Of course, read the book in order, but some of your favorites, uh, chapter eight, Be Quick to Listen, Slow to Speak.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Beautifully put. Again, Africa's a magician with words. So, uh, number nine, I love this because we talked about it, but not in this language, Honest Conflict or Dishonest Harmony. And I know that-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes
- SPSpeaker
... I'd rather live in honest conflict than dishonest harmony.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
Did you wanna say something to that? Do you wanna-
- ABAfrica Brooke
No, no, no, no, no.
- SPSpeaker
Oh, I'm just, I'm just giving people the-
- ABAfrica Brooke
This is beautiful
- SPSpeaker
... if you want to, please dive in.
- ABAfrica Brooke
No, no, no, this is perfect.
- SPSpeaker
Uh, this one is, uh, probably one of my favorite chapters as well that's in there, You Owe the Internet Nothing, chapter four, really important one to read with the age that we're living in. Uh, and chapter 11, a great one to look forward to, one before the end, which is Brave Expression: A Price Worth Paying.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Uh, and, and I can honestly say that in trying to bravely express myself, the freedom and liberation that I have felt internally is priceless despite the minority experience of the external, the, the internal feeling. And I always ask myself, how will I feel about this at the time of death?
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
I always ask myself that-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Oh, wow
- SPSpeaker
... because that's the price worth paying for, because at that point, I'm not gonna think about comments, and I'm not gonna think about DMs, and I'm not gonna think about followers. I don't think any of us are. I don't think any of us in that moment are gonna go, "Oh, well, I wish more people agreed with me or-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... knew who I was or knew what I stood for." I don't think that's gonna be what's going through my mind. It's going to be, did I serve? Did I live? Did I allow myself to be? And did I become all of who I felt like becoming in order to help and improve the lives of others and share everything I had to share? Those are gonna be the questions I ask, so why not make those the questions now? Because I will only answer those questions if I ask them now.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
I will only find the answers for the rest of my life, but if I wait till the time of death to ask them, I'll have no time to answer them.
- ABAfrica Brooke
You're gonna make me cry. [laughs] That was beautiful. Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
See?
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah, yeah. Not really much more to add to that, to be honest, because I was just receiving everything you're saying, and I feel it so deeply. And it's just a reminder that a lot of the things that we think really matter, that we really just double down on, won't even matter, not even just at the time of death, but next week-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- ABAfrica Brooke
... you wouldn't even be able to remember the specific disagreement you were having in a comment section with someone or the way you were applauding someone's downfall. You know, it's not going to be... It's not going to add anything. It just takes.
- 1:55:55 – 2:01:04
Africa on Final Five
- SPSpeaker
Africa, I-
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... hope that this is the first of many conversations for us.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
I have deeply enjoyed it online and offline. I hope so. Uh, we end every episode of On Purpose with a Final Five, which each question has to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. Uh, sometimes I go off-piste, but, uh-
- ABAfrica Brooke
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... Africa Brooke, these are your Final Five. So the first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?
- ABAfrica Brooke
There is no such thing as failure, only feedback.
- SPSpeaker
Mm. Love that. Uh, second question, what is the worst piece of advice you've ever heard or received?
- ABAfrica Brooke
Be yourself.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- ABAfrica Brooke
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
That's great.
- ABAfrica Brooke
'Cause the bitterest-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, go on
- ABAfrica Brooke
... teachers that I've spoken to say, "Which one?"
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Which I love.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- SPSpeaker
That's great.
- ABAfrica Brooke
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
That's great. Uh, question number three, how would you define your current purpose?
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mind and tongue liberation.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Yeah, yeah. That's, that's my, that's my soul work for the meantime.
- SPSpeaker
Ooh.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Supporting people with mind and tongue liberation.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- ABAfrica Brooke
Mm.
Episode duration: 2:01:04
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