Bollywood Icon Karan Johar Reveals His Deepest Insecurities: “I Wasn’t Like the Other Boys”

1. 0:00 – 1:02

   Intro

   1. KJKaran Johar0:00

      I was told I was different. I walked differently, I ran differently, I spoke differently. I was told I wasn't able to be an achieving man

   2. JSJay Shetty0:09

      Karan Johar is an Indian filmmaker, producer, and television personality He's launched the careers of several successful actors and filmmakers under his company, Dharma Productions When Karan Johar was a young man, what did he dream to be?

   3. KJKaran Johar0:23

      I wanted to belong, and I wanted to be part of the football team. I wanted to play cricket with the boys, but nobody chose me because I wasn't good enough, not man enough

   4. JSJay Shetty0:32

      How has your feeling around the word "man" and masculinity changed from those early days of being told you were not man enough?

   5. KJKaran Johar0:39

      Today, I walk this way, and they're like, "Walk like a man." I'm like, "No, I'm walking like myself, and I love myself." I've never, ever pretended to be somebody I wasn't

   6. JSJay Shetty0:49

      This moment that you have where you start to feel some confidence or, "I wanna be a public figure," how do you pursue that?

   7. KJKaran Johar0:56

      Shah Rukh took me aside and said, "I want you to direct a film, and I'll do it." Then he called my dad, and he was like, "Look, we should make a movie

2. 1:02 – 5:39

   The Childhood Dream That Sparked a Legacy

   1. KJKaran Johar1:02

      together, and your son will direct it, but I'm telling you he'll make a really good filmmaker"

   2. JSJay Shetty1:05

      There was a destiny that was calling you that way. What was the hardest moment up until then?

   3. KJKaran Johar1:10

      The toughest moment at that time was just me watching my father fail

   4. SPSpeaker1:17

      The number one health and wellness podcast Jay Shetty

   5. KJKaran Johar1:20

      Jay Shetty The one, the only Jay Shetty

   6. JSJay Shetty1:23

      [laughs] Karan Johar, welcome to On Purpose India. Our first ever recording in India is with someone that had such a big impact on my life, even since before I met you, through your work, your films, your storytelling, and I'm so grateful to call you a friend, so grateful that you've taken time out today, and I've loved every minute we've spent offline, and I'm so glad we get to record online today. So thank you so much for doing this

   7. KJKaran Johar1:52

      Thank you, Jay. Thank you for inviting me. This is truly wonderful

   8. JSJay Shetty1:55

      Ah. So, so happy to have you here. And I remember the first time we connected, I think I got a DM message from you-

   9. KJKaran Johar2:00

      Yeah

   10. JSJay Shetty2:01

       ... where you'd just ordered my book, Think Like a Monk.

   11. KJKaran Johar2:04

       Yes

   12. JSJay Shetty2:04

       And I was so grateful and surprised and shocked because, as I said, I'd been watching your films ever since I was a young boy. And I thought, "Wow, I can't believe that Karan Johar is buying my book." It was really one of those, like, starstruck moments. And I wanted to start off by asking you, when Karan Johar was a young man, even younger than a young man, a little boy, what did he dream to be? Who did he wanna be?

   13. KJKaran Johar2:27

       When I go back to my, my childhood, what did I dream of being or what did I want to be? The first thing I wanted to is just be. I wanted to belong. That's the first thing I wanna do. I just felt very different from all the other boys my age, all the other kids my age. I think I was just... In those days, back in the '80s, I didn't know how to describe my head space because I didn't understand what I was. I felt I was different. I felt I was different from the others, and I wasn't able to kind of articulate it to myself. And those were not days that, you know, we could get any kind of counseling, any kind of, you know, visit to somebody who could guide you, help you, nurture you in that way. Uh, even your parents were giving you all the love. Like, I was the only child, so I got a lot of love, but I knew I was very different. I was told I was, you know, more effeminate than I should be. I walked differently. I ran differently. I spoke differently. My choices in life, my hobbies in life were different. I liked to, like, watch, like, a lot of Hindi movies and consume that. A lot of kids in my, my neighborhood, I... We grew up in a, in an elite neighborhood called Malabar Hill, and, like, nobody really watched Hindi cinema at that time, Indian cinema. I was tha- watching, like, all those movies and dancing to those songs in my room. And boys and girls my age were, like, listening to their parents' favorites like ABBA, or they were getting to, like, Wham!, George Michael, Madonna. It was a breakthrough of, like, you know, Western pop artists. And, you know, I was not really getting into it. I was listening to Lata Mangeshkar and-

   14. JSJay Shetty3:50

       [laughs]

   15. KJKaran Johar3:50

       ... Kishore Kumar and Asha Bhosle and Mohammed Rafi, and everything about me was different. So whenever I went down, you know, we lived in, like, apartment blocks, and when you went down, it was the thing that all the kids at the, the apartment block would come down and play in the evenings. And I wanted to belong. I wanted to be part of the football team. I wanted to play cricket with the boys, but nobody chose me because I wasn't good enough. You know, I wasn't sporty enough. I was not boy enough or man enough. So when you ask me what I wanted to be, the first thing at that age is I wanted to belong. My dreams, Jay, came much later.

   16. JSJay Shetty4:20

       Mm.

   17. KJKaran Johar4:21

       You know? It... They came much, much later. The very first part of my formative years, my teenage years, was just to belong. And no one told me then that you don't have to. You can be your own person. That guidance, that nurturing, that philosophy of life wasn't given to me at that point of time. Like my own kids, for example, I, I visit my school counselors, and they're really helping me, you know, because we are a modern family. I'm a single parent. I have to guide them, make them understand our situation is very different from the other families. But I have that guidance. At that point of time in life, I didn't have. So my dreams came much later, and I, I remember the particular moment when my mother sat me down, and I was 12, because I was going through a really rough time. I wanted to change schools. I wanted to co- because I, I felt I was being ragged in and around, and I still went back to the same school. I didn't change school. And she told me, she says, "Look, I want you to be an achiever, no matter what you do. I want you to be good at something. Just hold on to what you think you're good at because I feel like you're not really, really nurturing, you know, what you're good at." And I was good at, like, elocution and debate and drama, and, uh, that's the first time I, I took my mom's advice, and I walked into the Interact club. And I got, very first year, you know, I started representing my school at debates and elocutions, and there, the confidence started building. So

3. 5:39 – 9:02

   Why Finding a Safe Space Can Change Everything

   1. KJKaran Johar5:39

      it was something that happened organically. You know, I think my chat with my mother was very defining, and I don't think she realizes how defining that chat was to me. It made such a big impact. And then there was that moment, Jay, when I was on stage. It was my last year at school. We had... Those days, we had houses, right? You were red house, yellow house, blue or green. I was red house. And I was so popular because of my... I, I was very good at English and Hindi and debate and drama, elocution. And I gave my last speech, so to say, you know, and everybody knew I was up for the gold medal and, you know. And at that point in time, I looked at, like, the 200 students staring at me, and I was like, "I think I'm gonna be famousI just, as I thought in my head, uh, it's not something that I can explain why I had it. I just felt it. So at that point in time, I was like, "Okay, I think I wanna be a public figure."

   2. JSJay Shetty6:22

      [laughs]

   3. KJKaran Johar6:22

      I don't know in what capacity. I didn't know I was gonna land up making movies. I just felt the aura and energy of that room. And, and it, for me, it was a big deal because I never thought I would ever, ever be anyone. Because I was told I was different, and I wasn't able to be an achieving man. I was told that several times. Like, look, the... I, I was even, uh, told at times, like, "Are your parents proud of you? Because look at how you are." Like, there were things like that said to you, and you have to find your own journey, your own path in life. And at that point in time, as I said, that I didn't have the help. I had to do it on my own.

   4. JSJay Shetty6:54

      Thank you so much for sharing that because I think a lot of people listening right now, they, they know the Karan Johar of today. But many may not know that time, and I think you spoke about this really important difference between fitting in and belonging.

   5. KJKaran Johar7:08

      Yeah.

   6. JSJay Shetty7:08

      And I think a lot of us when we're young, we think we have to fit in.

   7. KJKaran Johar7:11

      Yeah.

   8. JSJay Shetty7:12

      And then when you grow older, you realize you just have to be and belong, and first belong to yourself. But like you said, that as a kid, you don't have the skills, you don't have the tools, you don't have the language, you don't have the vocabulary. When you're going through that before you have this defining conversation with your mother, what would you turn to? Did you find yourself... Did you process through crying? Did you process through talking to someone else? How, how would you even deal with those emotions? Because-

   9. KJKaran Johar7:37

      I, I lived vicariously through cinema, through Hindi movies, through vintage Raj Kapoor, through Yash Chopra, through Guru Dutt. I was maybe an old soul because I was so attracted to the more soulful cinema of that time. It was all Hindi cinema at that time. So I was watching Pyaasa and Kagaz Ke Phool. I was watching Bimal Roy. I was watching, like, literally Guru Dutt and enjoying, like, that level of cinema at a very young age. And I feel like cinema was my, like, release, my, in some way, my safe space. I felt every time I watched movies, it made me go into that world, and I was so absorbed by that world that I didn't need to look inward 'cause I was already in another world.

   10. JSJay Shetty8:17

       Yeah.

   11. KJKaran Johar8:17

       Um, and it really gave me wings to fly. I never resorted to self-pity or crying or sulking or weeping and feeling terrible for myself. I didn't do any of that. I just was so absorbed with cinema and cinema music. I remember there was a film called Sangam that released when I was eight years old. Um, there was a song, "Dafli Wale," and I was-

   12. JSJay Shetty8:37

       [laughs]

   13. KJKaran Johar8:37

       ... obsessed with that song. It had a f- uh, veteran actors in it, Rishi Kapoor and Jaya Prada, and it was directed by a veteran, K. Vishwanath. And I'd seen that movie, and I'd gone crazy, and I went to see that film multiple times. Um, and nobody in the neighborhood came with me, so I would take, like, our house help, uh, with us to go and, you know, see the movie. 'Cause even my parents said, like, "We can't keep watching the same film."

   14. JSJay Shetty8:57

       [laughs]

   15. KJKaran Johar8:57

       Because I would watch that film. And then I would come back, and I would play those songs on my

4. 9:02 – 14:46

   Creativity as a Lifeline: Where Healing Begins

   1. KJKaran Johar9:02

      audio cassette. You know, we used to have, like, cassettes in those days, you know? And I would dance. I would dance on my own. And somehow my parents thought that was absolutely okay. Like, my dad would encourage me to dance, not realizing that actually I'm doing something unusual for a boy, dancing to all the female steps.

   2. JSJay Shetty9:19

      Mm.

   3. KJKaran Johar9:19

      You know, I was doing something unusual. But he would encourage me, and he didn't realize then, but he was a liberal father. He was a progressive father. He never said, like, "Walk like a man. Speak like a man." He never said any of that to me. He loved me, like, unabashedly. And, like, he thought I was great. Even when I was, like, large and beyond plus size, he said, "You have some puppy fat. You'll lose it, and you're, like, the most handsome boy in the world."

   4. JSJay Shetty9:43

      [laughs]

   5. KJKaran Johar9:43

      Like, he made me feel so special. As I said, and going back to your question, Jay, that I resorted to Hindi cinema for, for my... to self-protect.

   6. JSJay Shetty9:53

      I can vouch for your love for classical music and movies because when I came to your home, you bought my wife and I the caravan-

   7. KJKaran Johar10:00

      Yeah

   8. JSJay Shetty10:00

      ... uh, music-

   9. KJKaran Johar10:02

      Yeah

   10. JSJay Shetty10:02

       ... uh, thing-

   11. KJKaran Johar10:02

       Yeah

   12. JSJay Shetty10:02

       ... that my mom has now stolen.

   13. KJKaran Johar10:03

       Yes. Oh.

   14. JSJay Shetty10:04

       Because she, it's for... Yeah, she loves it.

   15. KJKaran Johar10:05

       Well, I'm happy. I'm happy.

   16. JSJay Shetty10:06

       She absolutely loves it.

   17. KJKaran Johar10:07

       I'm happy to hear that.

   18. JSJay Shetty10:07

       So she stole it.

   19. KJKaran Johar10:07

       I have one in the car right now.

   20. JSJay Shetty10:09

       Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

   21. KJKaran Johar10:09

       Like, I listen to it every day. It's, it's my soothing... Like, Hindi cinema music of that y- of the yore is, like, really my, like, go-to-

   22. JSJay Shetty10:16

       Yeah

   23. KJKaran Johar10:16

       ... at any point of junk- or any juncture in my life.

   24. JSJay Shetty10:18

       Oh, that's incredible. Now, this moment that you have where you start to feel some confidence or, "I wanna be a public figure," or there's this seed that's planted, how do you pursue that? How do you not get scared by it? I think a lot of people when they have this inner calling, they hear it in a voice. They can think, "Oh, but no, I can't do that. It's not for me. You know, I've been laughed at. Maybe I got lucky." But you pursued it. What was the first initial step that you took towards that inner calling, inner voice?

   25. KJKaran Johar10:47

       I actually didn't do anything. It just, life just unfolded. When I went into college, I actually went to a public speaking academy because I wanted to kind of nurture that part because I knew I was good at that, so I wanted to get better at it. And it was the head of that public speaking academy, he actually told me that I, I wouldn't encourage it today, but that time it made sense to me. Today, in, in the world of awareness, I think he was actually inappropriate because he said that, "Your voice sounds very girlish, and you should bring baritone in your voice, and let me help you, like, get that baritone-

   26. JSJay Shetty11:19

       Mm

   27. KJKaran Johar11:19

       ... because the world will be tough on you." And I think he meant really well. So he gave me these voice exercises, and I felt like my entire voice texture changed. 'Cause I, I feel like three years I went to him every single day-

   28. JSJay Shetty11:30

       Yeah

   29. KJKaran Johar11:31

       ... to learn with him and his wife taught me, like, how to get baritone in my voice, to sound more like a man. And I used to tell my parents I'm going to computer class, you know, because I didn't know how else to pay for that course, 'cause I had to pay. 'Cause they had to give me the money, but I couldn't tell them I'm going actually to sound like a man. And three years later, the computer arrived in my dad's office, and he was like, "You've learnt it for three years. You know what to do." And I hadn't done a single day of computer lesson in my entire life. So I had no idea what to do with that computer.

   30. JSJay Shetty12:01

       [laughs]
5. 14:46 – 18:00

   Facing Life’s Hardest Moments With Grace

   1. KJKaran Johar14:46

      of Adi and Shah Rukh. They are the two pillars that actually moved my destiny path. So when you ask me, like, what was that, I didn't do anything. Things just happened.

   2. JSJay Shetty14:53

      [laughs]

   3. KJKaran Johar14:53

      And I'm... I feel like Beyoncé, like Destiny's Child. Like, I really believe the destiny was carved out, and I just walked the path. And I made my first film. That's where I saw the arc lights. I saw the red carpets roll out, and it was an instant blockbuster, and I suddenly felt like all the tough times in my childhood, my growing years, where I was felt like I didn't belong, suddenly I felt my work belonged.

   4. JSJay Shetty15:19

      Mm.

   5. KJKaran Johar15:20

      And because my work belonged, my identity became my work.

   6. JSJay Shetty15:23

      Mm.

   7. KJKaran Johar15:23

      Um, and it seemed like some kind of divine intervention and so much validation all at the same time. Like, everything that I ever seeked and wanted and desired, and it was almost a dream. You know, it felt like a dream. In 1998 when my film released, I felt like, "Is this really happening to me, to us as a family?" It's not what I ever envisaged for myself. It's not something that I ever expected. It's not something my parents expected. It was like someone really answered a prayer, you know? But life is push and pull, right? Because you give, you get. And so some things that happened subsequently, also, I was also grabbed of something, but at that moment it felt like this is the best thing to happen to anyone.

   8. JSJay Shetty16:02

      Yeah, and that is an iconic, legendary movie that... So I saw that when I was 11 years old-

   9. KJKaran Johar16:07

      Thank you

   10. JSJay Shetty16:07

       ... in '98. Life-

   11. KJKaran Johar16:09

       You're aging me while I-

   12. JSJay Shetty16:10

       [laughs]

   13. KJKaran Johar16:10

       ... while I sit right in front of you.

   14. JSJay Shetty16:11

       Oh, sorry.

   15. KJKaran Johar16:11

       But I will allow you that. [laughs]

   16. JSJay Shetty16:14

       [laughs] I was just saying how, like, how early you've been in my life, or your-

   17. KJKaran Johar16:17

       Yeah

   18. JSJay Shetty16:17

       ... storytelling has been in my life, and just how, how formative it was, and I still probably watch that movie every year.

   19. KJKaran Johar16:23

       Yeah.

   20. JSJay Shetty16:23

       Like, I don't think you can go a year without seeing it. But I wanna roll back a little bit. Were they still like, "Carry on with your French, and let's focus on the business," or were they-

   21. KJKaran Johar16:30

       They were... My mother didn't talk to me for a, for a month.

   22. JSJay Shetty16:33

       If someone feels upset or sometimes if you feel you've upset someone, how do you transform that?

   23. KJKaran Johar16:37

       I apologize firstly.

   24. JSJay Shetty16:39

       Mm.

   25. KJKaran Johar16:39

       There's nothing wrong in saying sorry. You know, there's nothing wrong in reaching someone's residence and saying, "Look, I was insensitive, and I apologize. I did you wrong."

   26. JSJay Shetty16:47

       When I told them I wanted to be a monk, they weren't the happiest. It's not the best news to get as parents, but-

   27. KJKaran Johar16:53

       My request is always to parents, please know that your child has to be loved no matter what.

   28. JSJay Shetty17:00

       Walk me through, you just said now that it was at that moment that all those tough moments, all those difficult moments really almost felt like they made sense. There was a destiny that was calling you that way. What was the hardest moment up until then? What was the most difficult moment that you'd experienced?

   29. KJKaran Johar17:16

       It was, it was-

   30. JSJay Shetty17:16

       Is there a memory that you have, or-
6. 18:00 – 20:04

   Turning Career Failure Into a Comeback Story

   1. KJKaran Johar18:00

      when my father actually produced his very first film in 1980, that did really well, and then the four films subsequently all failed. And we had tough financial times. Those days, producers were... There were no studios. There was no funding from studios. There was no corporate funding. There was no bank funding. It was like those old-fashioned producers sold homes, sold jewelry, sold stuff, and all that happened to us. My mom had to sell her maternal house.

   2. JSJay Shetty18:24

      Oh, wow.

   3. KJKaran Johar18:24

      There was jewelry sold. My father had to sell the only piece of land he owned, all because we gave some back-to-back disasters at the box office. So just watching them fail, and today when there's this whole chatter about nepotism specifically surrounding me, I laugh in my head. I'm like, "My father would've had the biggest laugh," because he was like, "We weren't even on the radar-"

   4. JSJay Shetty18:44

      [laughs]

   5. KJKaran Johar18:44

      "... as the most influential production house." We had failed. We had stumbled. We had fallen, and we were still rising because my father was a good man and loved by the business. He loved... He was very loved by the movie fraternity, but he was not, he was not a success story. And I saw... And to watch your own parent go through that on a daily basis is not easy. To watch your mom, like, cry when my dad's not watching is not easy because I was watching both at a distance because they tried to keep me away, shelter me, but every day I saw sadness in the house. And I was yet given so much love and so much joy, yet everything they had, they would give me. Like, whether it was a holiday or it was, like, a night out, it was a movie, and I, everything that I ever wanted, like, was, I was never denied anything. It's because whatever they could have, it was for me.It was all for me. So I saw the blend of khushi and gham, happiness and sadness all at once at all the time. So the toughest times were watching all this, but then you knew that there was a silver lining coming, and the film Kuch Kuch Hota Hai was that silver lining.

   6. JSJay Shetty19:50

      Yeah. When they saw you, uh, Yash Chopra Ji and Adi and start working with them, were they still like, "Carry on with your friends and let's focus on the business," or were they-

   7. KJKaran Johar20:00

      Dev, my mother didn't talk to me for a, for a month, uh, when I decided

7. 20:04 – 21:01

   Why Believing in Your Potential Opens Doors

   1. KJKaran Johar20:04

      to do this. She was very unhappy because, as I said, she saw my father fail. And she was like, "This is not the profession to be in. You don't have the, the wherewithal. You don't have the emotional tools. You don't have the personality for this business. You won't... You're too soft. You won't be able to." And my dad was pragmatic, and he was also emotional. He was like, "Okay, you're asking for a year. Take a year, but assure me after that year you will do what, what you think is right that is more stable. Like, please don't pursue something if you feel it's, it's not working out. Because don't do what I did, because I've, I've stretched myself in the business and I haven't achieved success, and I don't want that for you." But then my mom came around because Adi, uh, came and explained to my mom that, "Look, this is gonna be great for him," and, you know, then eventually, she's my mom, so she came around.

   2. JSJay Shetty20:48

      [laughs]

   3. KJKaran Johar20:48

      But a year later, things really started changing because when the film released, then Shah Rukh spoke to me, and then opportunities, you know, were seeming like they were coming my way.

   4. JSJay Shetty20:57

      Yeah.

   5. KJKaran Johar20:57

      I still remember when my movie was being made, my, till the very last

8. 21:01 – 23:27

   When to Trust Your Instincts And When Not To

   1. KJKaran Johar21:01

      day before I went onto set, my mom actually took me aside at home and said, "Look, you don't have to do this. Are you doing this because everybody else is telling you to do it or you really wanna do it? Do you really think you're good enough?" And I was like, "I don't know."

   2. JSJay Shetty21:12

      [laughs]

   3. KJKaran Johar21:13

      "I have to get onto that film set." And I was like, "Mom, like, that's not really a vote of confidence." Like, a day prior to me filming Kuch Kuch Hota Hai, she said, "You can still back out." [laughs]

   4. JSJay Shetty21:21

      Wow.

   5. KJKaran Johar21:22

      "You can still, like, stop." She said, "Do you even know what to do with the camera?" And I was like, she's saying because we've, we're not creative people. "How have you got this bug? Why do you wanna do this? Are you sure you are good at it?" And I sat back, and I actually thought about it. That entire night before I went on to film, I was like, "Am I making the biggest mistake of my life? Is this really meant for me? Should I be making movies at all?" But then I was like, "You know what? Now I can't do anything about it." [laughs]

   6. JSJay Shetty21:49

      Mm.

   7. KJKaran Johar21:49

      "Shah Rukh Khan's reporting on set at 9:00 AM in the morning. I better be on that set and try and give it my best."

   8. JSJay Shetty21:54

      What do you think Adi saw in you for-

   9. KJKaran Johar21:56

      I have no idea. I ask him even now.

   10. JSJay Shetty21:58

       Really?

   11. KJKaran Johar21:58

       I have no idea what he saw in me.

   12. JSJay Shetty22:00

       What, what does he say now?

   13. KJKaran Johar22:00

       He's like, "I just knew you were" ... He says, he says, "You're, you were so passionate about cinema, but you were subduing it and suppressing it because of your circumstance." And, um, he was like, "I just knew it." He just knew it. He is the reason I s- I sit here across you today. And then Shah Rukh, I have no idea. Even Shah Rukh says the same thing. I don't think they have a valid explanation.

   14. JSJay Shetty22:18

       [laughs]

   15. KJKaran Johar22:18

       I think they just, they just felt it.

   16. JSJay Shetty22:19

       A feeling, yeah.

   17. KJKaran Johar22:20

       It was an ins- Which is why I think instincts are, are superpowers. When we don't listen to them, we're actually failing that superpower. It's all of us have it. We are all super people. Like, we all have superpowers. Uh, we don't act on it. We intellectualize it. We give it circumstance. We give it logic. We give it, like, overthinking, but actually, our first instinct is always bang on. And their first instinct was, "This kid knows what he's gonna do," so they acted on it, fortunately for me. But they have no rational explanation for why they asked me to do what I, what I do today.

   18. JSJay Shetty22:51

       Walk me through an example of when you've followed your instinct and it's worked. I guess you've given some examples already, but an example of when you have ignored it or when you suppressed it.

   19. KJKaran Johar23:01

       Every time I've met a person and asked him to direct a film for me, I've met at, at... And some of the biggest filmmakers, um, you know, who've come off from our studio, Dharma Productions, have been my first instinct, whether it's Ayan Mukerji, Shakun Batra, Shashank Khaitan, ra- ev- so many I can mention.

   20. JSJay Shetty23:16

       Yeah.

   21. KJKaran Johar23:16

       They're all-

   22. JSJay Shetty23:16

       Ayan's fantastic.

   23. KJKaran Johar23:17

       A- Ayan's making Brahmastra. He's, he's-

   24. JSJay Shetty23:19

       Mm.

   25. KJKaran Johar23:19

       He, he's a big filmmaker. He came, met me, assisted me. I told him, "You should direct a film." He makes his first film called Wake

9. 23:27 – 26:53

   What Failure Reveals About Real Success

   1. KJKaran Johar23:27

      Up Sid. He and several others have been a result of my first instinct. And those have, people... A lot of people said, "But why? What have they done? Have they even done anything before? Why are you asking them to direct a whole feature film?" And I'm like, "I felt it." And yet, there are some times when I'm producing a film and everything about it seems right, it's all falling into place, but something's telling me that there's something wrong, but I haven't acted on it because I feel it's all looking too good to be true.

   2. JSJay Shetty23:50

      Yeah.

   3. KJKaran Johar23:51

      You know, I remember there was a film, it was an adaptation of a Mani Ratnam film, a very beautiful film, and it was a film called OK Jaanu. And Aditya and Shraddha had just done a blockbuster called Aashiqui, and they'd already agreed to do the film. And the film came to me as a project ready with a great remake. Shaad was a wonderful director, wonderful actors. And yet, in my heart, I had actually felt that should this film be remade? Because it's so much-

   4. JSJay Shetty24:15

      Wow

   5. KJKaran Johar24:15

      ... in the moment. Can that moment be recaptured?

   6. JSJay Shetty24:18

      Right.

   7. KJKaran Johar24:18

      And that movie, and as special as all my movies are to me, and both of them were incredible in the film, Aditya, Shraddha. Shaad made a lovely film. But somehow, I think that magic of the original, we couldn't recapture, and it was nobody's fault. It was nobody's fault. It was... But my instinct told me I shouldn't do it, and I did it, and that's when I realized that, that I should listen to my instinct. And yet, after that, I haven't, and I've gone wrong. You know, I've gone, 'cause somehow we do repeat our, our mistakes.

   8. JSJay Shetty24:43

      Mm-hmm.

   9. KJKaran Johar24:43

      We make them again and again.

   10. JSJay Shetty24:44

       [laughs]

   11. KJKaran Johar24:44

       No matter how you say mistakes and failings are learnings, not really.

   12. JSJay Shetty24:47

       [laughs]

   13. KJKaran Johar24:47

       You know? We say it. Do we really follow it?

   14. JSJay Shetty24:50

       Yeah.

   15. KJKaran Johar24:50

       We'll make it again. Life is, till your dying day, you're gonna make what you call errors or mistakes or misjudgments, and there's nothing you can do about that.

   16. JSJay Shetty24:58

       Yeah.

   17. KJKaran Johar24:58

       No amount of spirituality, philosophy, books, sessions of, like, spiritual learnings can ever make you stop making those mistakes. Those mistakes also define us.

   18. JSJay Shetty25:08

       Yeah.

   19. KJKaran Johar25:08

       Those wounds and scars are also such a huge part of us. Every failure of mine is as special to me as every success. It's just the way I look at it.

   20. JSJay Shetty25:17

       How did you train yourself to look at it that way, or have you always been that way?

   21. KJKaran Johar25:21

       I, in fact, believe extreme failure gives me relief because I feel, "Ah, it failed."I know it failed. I have to analyze why, but it's failed. It's a, it's a, it's a result. Because success is so stressful. Nothing fails like success, 'cause you have to follow success with more success, and then with more success. Failure's a great place to sometimes be for you to reflect, analyze, take some time off, and also it's a verdict. It's a failure. What I can't bear, Jay, is-

   22. JSJay Shetty25:51

       [laughs]

   23. KJKaran Johar25:51

       ... is average.

   24. JSJay Shetty25:53

       The middle.

   25. KJKaran Johar25:53

       I hate average. I hate mediocre, I hate average, I hate above average, average, AVG, b- neither here nor there. I hate that space because I don't know how much of it is tilting towards success and how much towards failure, and I can't bear that verdict. I'd rather a f- very big massive failure than an average grosser. I can't bear those.

   26. JSJay Shetty26:12

       [laughs]

   27. KJKaran Johar26:12

       'Cause those give me, like, nightmares about what it could have been-

   28. JSJay Shetty26:16

       Yeah

   29. KJKaran Johar26:16

       ... or what I could have done-

   30. JSJay Shetty26:17

       Yeah
10. 26:53 – 30:38

    Living With Grief: How to Find Peace and Closure

    1. KJKaran Johar26:53

       manwa dukh ki chinta kyu satati hai. Dukh to apna saathi hai." So it's like, okay, dear person, like, why does sadness affect you, and why are you afraid? It's actually should be your friend. And the next line is, "Sukh hai ek chhaon dhalti aati hai jaati hai. Dukh to apna saathi hai." So it's like happiness is like a shadow. It like, it's like breeze. It's like it'll come in and out of your life, you know? But your constant is sadness, so embrace it because it's gonna be your constant. And when sadness and when happiness comes in, it's like sunshine. It'll come, and then it'll go back into the clouds. So embrace what you have, which is sadness, and it's such a positive look at sadness or tragedy or dark areas of your life, gray areas of your life because it's always there, so you might as well befriend it.

    2. JSJay Shetty27:38

       Yeah.

    3. KJKaran Johar27:39

       Because when sunshine comes, you'll enjoy it even more. But know that you're to come back to this.

    4. JSJay Shetty27:43

       [laughs]

    5. KJKaran Johar27:43

       And I don't look at it, like, with sadness or darkness. I look at it with, like, with a lot of joy. So I embrace sadness with a lot of happiness, and that's the only way I think I can live my life.

    6. JSJay Shetty27:53

       Karan, you're a philosopher. [laughs]

    7. KJKaran Johar27:55

       I, I don't know about that. I just think there are certain fundas in life, really-

    8. JSJay Shetty27:58

       Yeah

    9. KJKaran Johar27:58

       ... that if you kind of, like, just know that... Like, it's like life and death. Like, you know, we can mourn death. We can feel terrible, but can your life stop? No, you have to move on. Nothing is worse than losing a loved one, but you eventually have to come to terms with the fact that it's happened. That's why there's a full stop, because the next sentence has to begin. So it's only can start when that full stop is registered, and then you move on. I look at life like that. Whatever goes wrong is going to go wrong. Nothing is gonna be constantly happy. Nothing is gonna be constantly sad. It's the way you have to kind of just understand life and, and maybe because as a child I had such a rough patch, I think I kind of armored myself for me to, you know, feel the way I do today about anything.

    10. JSJay Shetty28:43

        Who have you lost that that full stop was hard to-

    11. KJKaran Johar28:46

        My father. He passed away much earlier than I ever imagined, when he was in his early 70s and, uh, very healthy, on his feet, active man, no vices. He just one day had a fourth stage tumor in his esophagus, which we found out much later when it was in its fourth stage, and that went into full-blown cancer, and he passed. From the time of, uh, the diagnosis to the point of him passing away was 10 months. I'm a realist. I'm not an optimist or a, or a pessimist. I'm a realist. So I went to the oncologist and, and we were surprisingly filming, uh, Kal Ho Naa Ho, which is about a man dying, and it is about a man dying. We were in New York, and I went to my oncologist and said, "Look, my father," you know, a- and like, "M- tell me, give me the hard fact." And he said, "Look, it doesn't look good." And I would say, "Okay, now I know this, that I know it doesn't look good, and we'll do everything in our capacity medically to kind of," you know. But I said, "I don't wanna see him in pain." And actually, oddly, the five days that he had a tough time were the five days of his chemotherapy. Those were the tough days, the, the subsequent days to the chemotherapy. But actually, those 10 day, uh, other months, besides those five days, gave me so much time that I could spend with him, that I had conversations I never thought I would. We discussed my childhood. We discussed his early years. We discussed his achievements, his failures, his regrets, his joys. I have complete closure with my relationship with my father because I have no unanswered questions. Because in those 10 months, I wasn't running around like a headless chicken trying to keep him alive. I had accepted that he may go, and in those months, I lived in the moment with him, and I was able to have all those conversations that I would have loved to have had with him earlier, but I didn't.

11. 30:38 – 33:41

    Do You Carry Regrets?

    1. KJKaran Johar30:38

       But now, those 10 months gave me that. And I even told my mom. I was like, "Talk to him. Speak to him," but she was finding it very tough to accept the situation, so she couldn't, and that's why she still doesn't have closure. 20 years have passed since he passed away, and she still has not been able to deal with his passing away, and she's 82 years old today, whereas I actually have complete closure because I had every conversation I could have dreamt of having with a, with a parent, I did. And I, that's why I always tell people, like, communicate today, because there may not be a tomorrow. Tell them today anything. You have a problem. You have resentment issues. You have parental trauma. You've gotta speak today because today communication is the resolve, is the, is the aid is- you're looking for, is the solution to every problem, and we don't talk. Specifically, I think, um, in our parenting structure in India, we have respectAnd respect sometimes equals distance

    2. JSJay Shetty31:33

       Hmm. Yeah, well said, yeah

    3. KJKaran Johar31:34

       ... you know? And that respect should not give you distance in a relationship. Respect should also be a close component of love. It should actually give you the ability to communicate to your parent. Just because you respect your father and mother doesn't mean you can't say what you want. Parents are not always correct.

    4. JSJay Shetty31:50

       [laughs]

    5. KJKaran Johar31:50

       It's not that they are saying the right thing to you-

    6. JSJay Shetty31:52

       Yeah

    7. KJKaran Johar31:52

       ... all the time. They are carrying the baggage of their parents, and they put that baggage onto you, and you may not need it, or you shouldn't have it, and you have to kind of have an open line of channel, and you can still be respectful. Never not be respectful, 'cause that's something that our tradition teaches us, our culture teaches us. But please, I always tell people, keep an open channel of communication with your parent, because they may not always be correct. They may not always be right. They may not be right advice or value system may not be good for you, and you have to sometimes question it.

    8. JSJay Shetty32:27

       Yeah, for sure. Was there a specific question you asked or a conversation you remember fondly from that time? As you said, you had every conversation. You asked every question. Is there one that stands out?

    9. KJKaran Johar32:38

       I asked him whether he has any regrets, you know, and he spoke to me widely about, like, his relationship with his parents and his siblings and, you know, what he thought he did wrong as even career-wise, and how he thought he was taken for a ride, but he didn't act on it at the right time, and he lost a lot of money because some of his indiscretions and, you know, he spoke about that openly. He also spoke about the fact that, like, sometimes he has, he has things he wants to tell my mom, but he doesn't say it because he doesn't want to hurt or upset her, and he says, "I wish I had." Then he tells me, he told me, like, "You know, I wish, uh, I would've spent more time with you. You would've been... I, I wish I'd in- incorporated sport in your life. It would've given you a sense of much more like of... 'Cause I believe sport is not just for physical health, it's also gives you, it trains your mind very differently." And he said, "I didn't spend enough active time with you 'cause I was so busy working." So he told me a lot about his regrets and his, um, thoughts at that time, and I think it really helped him as well. I think it kind of gave him so much closure.

    10. JSJay Shetty33:38

        Yeah.

    11. KJKaran Johar33:38

        And I think those conversations are very dear to me.

12. 33:41 – 40:43

    What Making Films Was Really Like in the '90s

    1. KJKaran Johar33:41

       And then he wrote an 11-page letter to me, which I didn't know existed. It was given to me post him passing away-

    2. JSJay Shetty33:47

       No way

    3. KJKaran Johar33:48

       ... um, where he wrote all the business or the accounts, and it was a technical letter of everything about like, this is the account, these are the, these are my, like, the businesses that we've, th- this- you don't owe money to anyone. It's all done. This is where the, uh, bank account, et cetera, detail, mutual deposits, funds, like, whatever the investments were at that time. He gave me, like, an handwritten, Jay. Handwritten. It was written by him in hand, and then he wrote people you can trust, people you can't trust, things you should never do. Like, he just g- it became my Bible, and I literally, I think 90% of it is what I followed. And he wrote me an 11-page letter, and I still have it.

    4. JSJay Shetty34:21

       That's unbelievable.

    5. KJKaran Johar34:21

       Yeah.

    6. JSJay Shetty34:22

       Had he, had he ever wr- written you a letter before?

    7. KJKaran Johar34:23

       Never. He knew he was going.

    8. JSJay Shetty34:26

       Yeah, of course.

    9. KJKaran Johar34:26

       So he wrote me that. And it wasn't an emotional letter. It was a practical, thoughtful, business-minded, future-based letter. It was all about me, how to manage the funds, what we have, what we don't have, who owes him money, and he said, "But never ask them till they come to you," uh, because, you know, it was all given in good faith. And he said, "We don't owe anyone anything, so if anyone comes and asks, it's not true." And he gave me every single detail that me, who was not business-minded, had zero business acumen, needed that 11-pager, uh, that I followed as my Bible to kind of, uh, uh, forge forward at that time.

    10. JSJay Shetty35:05

        Wow, what a beautiful gift-

    11. KJKaran Johar35:07

        Yeah

    12. JSJay Shetty35:07

        ... to leave someone. That's so powerful.

    13. KJKaran Johar35:09

        Yeah.

    14. JSJay Shetty35:10

        I've never heard that before.

    15. KJKaran Johar35:11

        Yeah.

    16. JSJay Shetty35:11

        I've never heard someone leaving their child a practical, thoughtful... I mean, the idea of who to trust and who not to trust, that's pretty-

    17. KJKaran Johar35:18

        He never wrote anything that, "I love you. I will always..." None of that. That was said already.

    18. JSJay Shetty35:22

        [laughs]

    19. KJKaran Johar35:22

        It was none of that.

    20. JSJay Shetty35:23

        Yeah.

    21. KJKaran Johar35:23

        It was not a Hallmark letter.

    22. JSJay Shetty35:24

        Mm.

    23. KJKaran Johar35:25

        You know?

    24. JSJay Shetty35:25

        Yeah.

    25. KJKaran Johar35:25

        It, it was a, it was a business letter.

    26. JSJay Shetty35:27

        Mm. That's unbelievable. Thank you for sharing that. I mean, as I'm listening to you today, I feel like, and I've felt this in any of our conversations we've had, but even more so today because I'm learning so much more, there's so much depth and intention behind everything you've done. Like, there's, there's, even, even you saying that you follow your intuition, you calling it a superpower, even that idea that we all have superpowers and we can connect to them is quite beautiful. I wanted to go back to something you shared earlier. You were talking about how you don't like being mediocre or average, and there's a beautiful study in science that shows that that's true because people who come second in a race feel much more disappointed than those who come third.

    27. KJKaran Johar36:10

        Yeah.

    28. JSJay Shetty36:10

        And we think that if you come third you should feel disappointed, but when you come second, it's much worse-

    29. KJKaran Johar36:14

        Yes

    30. JSJay Shetty36:14

        ... because you were this close to first.
13. 40:43 – 42:13

    The Unexpected Friendships That Shape Your Path

    1. JSJay Shetty40:43

       [laughs]

    2. KJKaran Johar40:43

       When I look back on those days, and I remember one point in time, me and there was a stylist, who's now a huge celebrated stylist called Anaita Shroff. She was in the film as an actor at that time, and w- we were told, like, "Get Kajol in a sari. We have to shoot immediately." So we went to change, and then all of us realized that none of us knew how to tie a sari. Right?

    3. JSJay Shetty41:00

       [laughs]

    4. KJKaran Johar41:01

       Neither did Kajol know how to tie her sari, neither did Anaita know how to make anyone wear a sari, and neither did I know. So I went on memory, 'cause I watched my mom wear a sari. So whatever I could remember at that time-

    5. JSJay Shetty41:12

       No way

    6. KJKaran Johar41:12

       ... and whatever, Anaita, and we tied that sari in some way, which looks, according to me, terrible. And if anybody watches Dilwale, it's the electric blue sari she wears in the snow in the song Tujhe Dekha, where Shah Rukh is in a red shirt. Please see how she has draped her sari.

    7. JSJay Shetty41:26

       [laughs]

    8. KJKaran Johar41:26

       It's like a kaftan on her or something like that.

    9. JSJay Shetty41:28

       [laughs]

    10. KJKaran Johar41:28

        It's like there's no shape in the draping. There's no, there's no technicality. And, like, I remember, like, looking and, like, "God, pray please nobody points this out," because we didn't know what to do. We had no one to help us.

    11. JSJay Shetty41:40

        [laughs]

    12. KJKaran Johar41:40

        So I mean, this is just few of the stories to tell you-

    13. JSJay Shetty41:42

        Yeah, yeah

    14. KJKaran Johar41:42

        ... how we made movies back then.

    15. JSJay Shetty41:44

        Yeah. And it's, it's a lot-

    16. KJKaran Johar41:45

        And let me tell you still, we had the best time.

    17. JSJay Shetty41:47

        Yeah.

    18. KJKaran Johar41:48

        Today, there was, there was a purity, innocence, and camaraderie that doesn't exist today. Like, it's just today is so structured, but it's also so boring.

    19. JSJay Shetty41:57

        Mm-hmm.

    20. KJKaran Johar41:57

        'Cause it's all too organized.

    21. JSJay Shetty41:59

        Yeah.

    22. KJKaran Johar41:59

        There was some method to that madness that doesn't exist today.

    23. JSJay Shetty42:02

        Yeah, there was a magic there. There was magic. And was it planned that you would be in the movie yourself? Was that-

    24. KJKaran Johar42:06

        No

    25. JSJay Shetty42:06

        ... always part of the plan?

    26. KJKaran Johar42:07

        The guy who was meant to play the part didn't show up.

    27. JSJay Shetty42:09

        [laughs]

    28. KJKaran Johar42:09

        And, like, Shah Rukh and Adi turned around and said, "You're doing the part." And I was like,

14. 42:13 – 46:44

    The Iconic Harley Jacket

    1. KJKaran Johar42:13

       "You want me to be an extra in a movie?" As if, like, I had done anything in my life to achieve that, to say that.

    2. JSJay Shetty42:17

       [laughs]

    3. KJKaran Johar42:17

       But I just had some aspiration, you know? And they were like, "It, just do it. You don't have a choice."

    4. JSJay Shetty42:22

       [laughs]

    5. KJKaran Johar42:22

       And I was like, "Okay." And my, my mom got a shock because she, me, I didn't tell her that I was in the movie. So when she saw the first, movie the first time, she was like, "What?" Like, "Why didn't you..." I said, I said, "Okay. So I'm in, I'm, I'm in a blockbuster. That's what matters."

    6. JSJay Shetty42:33

       [laughs] What was the moment on set, obviously you have that conversation with Shah Rukh afterwards, and people love your friendship. What was the moment where you felt you really connected on that set, that you felt there was some beautiful connection that brought you together?

    7. KJKaran Johar42:46

       It was actually the climax. We were shooting the climax much earlier on in the filming of the film. And I had written about 60% or 70% of that scene, and Adi allowed me to write it, and it's the first piece of writing I ever did. And when we were rehearsing the scene, Adi told Shah Rukh that Karan's wr- you know, really helped in this scene, and written, you know, this much of the scene. And it was very gracious of him, it, to say it. And Shah Rukh looks at me, and he was like, "You wrote this?" So I was like... He's like, "Really?" And he's like, "You can write dialogue?" I was like, "Well, you know," he says, "But I don't see," like, I didn't, I just saw... 'Cause I was doing his costumes at that time, so he thought that that's where my inclination was at. He didn't even know that I was... So after that, I think he just kind of started talking to me, and he realized that, you know, I have such a crazy, passionate p-... cinegoer in me and how passionate I am about movies. And we began our friendship from then onwards, I think. And, and then we would hang out every day, and he would, like, ask me to do... He would read his lines and call me and, you know, he would, like, you know, rehearse with me because Adi was busy. So, and then of course, Adi was the magician who created the magic, but he made me, like, he was jammed with me on the side before. And I think that's where we formed such a close friendship. It was right, like, working. When he thought that, "This kid probably has some potential," and that's something probably that, like, he knows best and will answer best.

    8. JSJay Shetty44:02

       Yeah, yeah. I remember the leather jacket story you told me as well. [laughs]

    9. KJKaran Johar44:05

       Oh my God. We all went. We wanted to buy that Harley-Davidson jacket, and it was so expensive. It was so expensive at that time. Firstly, no one knew that Harley-Davidson made jackets. We just thought they made-

    10. JSJay Shetty44:15

        Motorcycles, yeah

    11. KJKaran Johar44:16

        ... bikes, motorcycles. And, uh, we went and, and Shah Rukh and Adi and everybody, like, literally, like, wanted that jacket. And I remember we all had to kind of, like, really convince each other, put in everything that we had to buy that jacket. It was, like, crazy. And it was 300 sterling, 300 pound at that time, 350, I'm not sure of the amount. But today it's equal to 30,000 maybe. I don't know what it would mean. But, like, at that time, buying a jacket at that cost was crazy. But, but I remember staring at it, like, staring at it and feeling like, "Can we even afford it?" And at that time, everyone then did what they could to make sure that we got that jacket, which today is so iconic-

    12. JSJay Shetty44:51

        Mm-hmm

    13. KJKaran Johar44:51

        ... and such a part of the film. It's like Manish was doing the costumes of, uh, Kuch Kuch Hota Hai, and, uh, we were passing a store that had that Polo Sport T-shirt, which he wears in the song Koi Mil Gaya.

    14. JSJay Shetty45:00

        Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

    15. KJKaran Johar45:01

        And it was in a, at a, at a cycle shop. 'Cause you know the cycle shops, cycling shops have these colored, you know, wear-

    16. JSJay Shetty45:07

        Yeah, yeah

    17. KJKaran Johar45:07

        ... which is not a wear. So I was like, it said Polo Sport colored T-shirt, bright blue and green, for 75 pounds, and I was like, "We can't." We thought about it for three days, and we made some sacrifices in our budget to buy that at that time. [laughs]

    18. JSJay Shetty45:19

        [laughs]

    19. KJKaran Johar45:19

        And I was like, today one wouldn't blink an eyelid and just buy it. But at that point in time, it was, like, a massive decision to make.

    20. JSJay Shetty45:25

        Yeah. The reason why these stories are so important to me is because I was an 11 to 14-year-old kid trying to dress like that-

    21. KJKaran Johar45:31

        Yeah

    22. JSJay Shetty45:31

        ... in real life. You'd get the turtleneck with the suit-

    23. KJKaran Johar45:34

        Yeah

    24. JSJay Shetty45:34

        ... which comes later on in Kuch Kuch Hota Hai.

    25. KJKaran Johar45:35

        Yes, yes, yes.

    26. JSJay Shetty45:36

        The Polo Sport shirt that you mentioned, the-

    27. KJKaran Johar45:38

        No, I know, and those Gap. So we decided that if we were buying the brands, we must show them.

    28. JSJay Shetty45:43

        Yeah.

    29. KJKaran Johar45:43

        They must be written. Unlike today, where people are doing quiet luxury.

    30. JSJay Shetty45:47

        Quiet luxury. [laughs]
15. 46:44 – 48:08

    The Power of Storytelling That Lasts a Lifetime

    1. JSJay Shetty46:44

       teenage years and childhood also, different from you in terms of the type of criticism I was refer- uh, facing, but I was also experiencing some of those things. I was overweight as a child, so I was bullied for that. There weren't many Indian kids at my elementary, primary school, so I was bullied for that because there just weren't many Indians in the area that my parents chose to live in. And I remember, I used to always act in school plays and dramas, and I loved that. But I remember once my mom had asked me to sing a bhajan for Diwali at my school, and my friends didn't really know what Diwali was. They didn't know what a bhajan was. And my mom had dressed me up as Lord Ram.

    2. KJKaran Johar47:21

       Wow.

    3. JSJay Shetty47:22

       And so I'm dressed up basically in a sari, kind of like a toga, because like you were dressing people on set, my mom had dressed me up.

    4. KJKaran Johar47:27

       Yeah.

    5. JSJay Shetty47:27

       It wasn't professional. She'd even put some makeup on me. And I walked on stage and my whole circle of friends just started laughing. Everyone in the audience just started laughing-

    6. KJKaran Johar47:36

       Oh, dear. All right

    7. JSJay Shetty47:36

       ... because they'd never seen a kid-

    8. KJKaran Johar47:37

       Yeah, yeah

    9. JSJay Shetty47:37

       ... dressed like that. And then I remember I started singing this bhajan. I have a terrible singing voice. I, I can't sing to save my life. And everyone starts laughing more. Now I'm crying on stage, and I look down at the page, and now all of the lines are blurred because my tears have blurred the lines, so I forget the lines, so people are laughing more. And then the worst thing happens, my teacher comes on stage. She puts her arm around me and walks me offstage, which everyone laughs and claps at more.

    10. KJKaran Johar48:03

        Yeah.

    11. JSJay Shetty48:03

        And so it almost feels like your movies, like what those older movies were for you,

16. 48:08 – 52:16

    Let Kindness and Karma Lead the Way

    1. JSJay Shetty48:08

       your movies were for me.

    2. KJKaran Johar48:09

       Yeah.

    3. JSJay Shetty48:10

       Because I didn't really have a space to experience magic-

    4. KJKaran Johar48:13

       Yeah

    5. JSJay Shetty48:14

       ... or experience love in that way. Again, my, my parents were wonderful, but I remember if I liked a girl at school, she would tell the whole class and everyone would laugh. You know, like, that was kind of my experience of that.

    6. KJKaran Johar48:24

       Yeah.

    7. JSJay Shetty48:24

       So your movies were a place where I felt a bit safer, a bit cooler, a bit, you know, a bit more hip and-

    8. KJKaran Johar48:30

       Yeah. [laughs]

    9. JSJay Shetty48:30

       ... trendy. [laughs]

    10. KJKaran Johar48:32

        Well, I'm happy to hear that.

    11. JSJay Shetty48:34

        How does, how does that feel? Because you travel across the world, and millions of people probably say that to you now. You probably hear that a lot from people like myself who grew up on that.

    12. KJKaran Johar48:42

        Yeah.

    13. JSJay Shetty48:43

        How does that feel?

    14. KJKaran Johar48:44

        I mean, a whole lot of gratitude. There's so much gratitude in my heart. [laughs] Like, I'm always overwhelmed when everyone, anyone comes up to me. I mean, I heard you just now, and I've heard so many people. Um, you meet invariably at events or parties or even airports. Uh, you know, people just come up and, you know, just say things about how you've impacted their childhood or, like, their growing years, and that the cinema has really, like, helped them seek a certain sense of joy. And you feel like you are not just contributing to pop culture or cinema, but also to people's hearts and minds and, and their souls. Like, you know, because everyone needs some love. You know, and everyone, if, if your cinema has provided that love for them, and, like, just, it's such a beautiful feeling. For me, it never makes me feel proud of myself. It just always makes me feel grateful to the universe-... uh, that allowed me to be a storyteller and allowed me a platform that could be impressionable, that could give people love and joy, and even shedding a tear because, you know, we all know a cathartic cry is the most-

    15. JSJay Shetty49:44

        Even it is

    16. KJKaran Johar49:44

        ... that, uh, is the most soulful thing to happen to you. Like, just crying is such a beautiful release. I'm always... That's my one big emotion, is gratitude.

    17. JSJay Shetty49:53

        Mm.

    18. KJKaran Johar49:54

        That's it. That's, there's nothing more than that. Just grateful every day.

    19. JSJay Shetty49:57

        Yeah. No, what you're referring to, all these movies had so many great messages, undertones, so many fascinating perspectives. What's your personal inner spiritual journey been like through all of this?

    20. KJKaran Johar50:09

        I think I found myself in the last five or seven years. I'm 52 today. So it started with me conforming to, like, religious practices because it was, like, my mom is from, is from Sindh. She's Sindhi. My dad is Punjabi. So my dad had a prayer in the morning, which was like a blend of many prayer... He prayed to many gods, you know, because he was like, he believed he was Arya Samaju. He didn't believe in any form of ritual, uh, or, uh, but he believed in, like, Havans. So, you know, we used to pray in the morning, then we had Havans on important occasions because he believed that was a beautiful aura and energy cleansing way, you know, of doing a Havan. My mother and my father both believed in the gurdwara. Uh, so I believe in going to langars in my growing years, you know? I believe in, you know, going very often to gurdwaras across the country. Um, Golden Temple being my, my most soulful place where I can really find s- peace and happiness in the Golden Temple in Amritsar. So I remember then going to temples as well and, you know, idol worshiping and, uh, I did everything. You know, I remember walking to a temple one day before the release of a film, uh, because all this is because it was told to me. Uh, I hadn't found my own inner voice, uh, vis-à-vis religion or spirituality or worship or belief. I went through my process of going to even, like, religious, like, pundits and astrologers and charts and, you know, going through psychics and everything, just finding all the tools you can to protect yourself and preserve things you have, till I realized that I don't wanna be someone that I don't want to be, and I don't wa- I don't believe that I'm gonna do anything that not coming from my heart. I believe that life lessons have equaled my spirituality in the moment. What I've learned and what I imbibe and what I say and what I believe is going to be my journey ahead. So if I feel like going to a place, if I feel if someone has, calls me to worship an idol and I don't feel it, I won't go. It's not that I don't... I have nothing against anybody else's religious belief, but it may not

17. 52:16 – 54:12

    Choosing Humility Over Ego

    1. KJKaran Johar52:16

       necessarily be mine.

    2. JSJay Shetty52:17

       Mm.

    3. KJKaran Johar52:17

       You know? So my belief is karma-based. My big belief is in karma. I believe that karma is a bank that you have to keep depositing on a daily basis. The more your karma collects, the more your world and your family and your loved ones are protected. I believe being good is karma, giving is karma, helping is karma, supporting is karma. Coming in someone's way is bad karma. Hurting someone is bad karma. You know? Stopping someone's growth is bad karma. Just, you know, betraying someone is bad karma. I don't want that. So I believe my religion or my spiritual school of thought is karma-related. It's all about building my karma points, my karma bank. I want that to be the richest part of me, is my, my karma bank, and that is, to me, my religion, my spirituality, my everything. So there's a line in a Yash Chopra film called "Tera Karam Hi Teri Vijay Hai" which means your karma is your victory.

    4. JSJay Shetty53:19

       Mm.

    5. KJKaran Johar53:19

       And that is what I believe. What's the point of me going to temples and places of worship, but actually stabbing somebody in their back? What is the point of me chanting every morning if I'm being terrible in my relationships or my friendships or being insensitive? What is the point of me learning, discoursing, like, reading books, but not operating? Like, and people... A- and I don't judge anyone for what they do. You do you. You be you. If, if every morning meditating and chanting is your thing, please do it. To me, I get peace from my actions, from my doings. When I can genuinely contribute to somebody's life, I sleep better that night. That's all I'm doing, Jay, is that I'm actually building that bank.

    6. JSJay Shetty54:04

       Yeah.

    7. KJKaran Johar54:04

       That, to me, is my belief system.

    8. JSJay Shetty54:06

       If someone feels upset or sometimes if you feel you've upset someone, how do you transform that?

    9. KJKaran Johar54:11

       I apologize first.

18. 54:12 – 57:29

    Learning to Love the Life You’ve Built

    1. JSJay Shetty54:12

       Mm.

    2. KJKaran Johar54:12

       There's nothing wrong in saying sorry. You know? There's nothing wrong in reaching someone's residence and saying, "Look, I was insensitive, and I apologize. I did you wrong." You know? "I did something wrong. I said something wrong. I s- overspoke in the moment," or, "I wasn't there for you." You know? And I believe that ego is, it's so restrictive. It stops you at every stage. So you have to, as a human being, realize the difference between ego and self-respect. There is a difference. There's a huge difference.

    3. JSJay Shetty54:41

       Tell us. Yeah.

    4. KJKaran Johar54:42

       Ego is very simple. Ego is unproductive and idiotic. Anyone who has an ego is stupid. If I come to your party uninvited, you know, because I feel I can, I don't have an ego. If you treat me well, that's great, but if you treat me badly and I've come uninvited, that hurts my self-respect, then I leave-

    5. JSJay Shetty54:59

       Mm

    6. KJKaran Johar54:59

       ... that party. So we preserve our self-respect, but we kill our ego. Self-respect is everything. How people treat you, how they respect you, how they deal with you is dabbling onto self-respect. Me having an ego because I feel I'm a public figure and I, I deserve something, I'm entitled to something, that's an ego. Who am I? We're all a dot. In the larger galaxy of the world, who is anybody? We're all one dot. Know that you're a dot.

    7. JSJay Shetty55:25

       [laughs]

    8. KJKaran Johar55:26

       You know, you could be the biggest achiever in this world, but you are still one tiny dot, and you will be erased, and another dot will come in your place.

    9. JSJay Shetty55:34

       [laughs]

    10. KJKaran Johar55:34

        So when you look at life like this, we are all nobody, so how dare you have an ego? Self-respect you have to do for your soul.You gotta do it for yourself. So I understand the difference, and I try very hard never to bring my ego. We all gonna get it. Ego, we're human. We're gonna fail and fall and fumble.

    11. JSJay Shetty55:48

        Of course.

    12. KJKaran Johar55:49

        But I don't want ego to be my, my speed breaker. I don't want it to come in my way. So if I mess up, if I, I'm insensitive and I have done something that I believe is incorrect, I will apologize.

    13. JSJay Shetty56:00

        Mm.

    14. KJKaran Johar56:01

        I will apologize.

    15. JSJay Shetty56:02

        Where did these ideologies come from within you?

    16. KJKaran Johar56:05

        I have no idea. I think it's acknowledging your circumstance, embracing the life that you've led, understanding your failures, acknowledging your missteps. All that teaches you, right? You know, you know where you've gone wrong, what you've done wrong, and you know what you need to correct and what you need to course-correct, and that gives you a certain sense of life lessons. For me, I love what you do, and I love what you say, and I love your belief system. I can never be you, but I can always listen to you. But ma- many a time I've interviewed spiritual leaders, and I, with a lot of respect, I go. You know, and I, whether it's from... You know, in India, we have so many spiritual leaders I've had the good fortune of interviewing myself. I've learnt, I've imbibed. But if you ask me do I follow anyone, no, I don't. I follow my life's errors and my life's strengths, and I learn from that, and I follow, and I chart my own path ahead. I don't believe in a certain religious force. I don't believe in a certain human guru. I don't believe my... I have no belief, personal belief, and I don't have anyone's image on my phone or in my room, barring my parents. I believe when you lose a parent, also you gain a god, and I believe my god is my father. So when I'm in distress, or I'm in duress, and I'm in, in a zone of turbulence in my life,

19. 57:29 – 59:28

    Finding Wholeness in Being Single

    1. KJKaran Johar57:29

       I turn to my dad, and I'm like-

    2. JSJay Shetty57:30

       Even now, yeah

    3. KJKaran Johar57:31

       ... "Help me. Like, what, what, what are you doing up there?"

    4. JSJay Shetty57:34

       [laughs]

    5. KJKaran Johar57:34

       Like, you know, "Move your magic." Like, you know, like, "Take your magic wand out. You can help me. You can do this. You can come through." It's not that he... e- everything comes through when you pray, but at least you're, you're communicating to a higher force.

    6. JSJay Shetty57:46

       Yes.

    7. KJKaran Johar57:46

       And I believe that force is genuinely a higher force. I know for a fact that he's there in the universe somewhere, and I know his spirit is listening to me, so I know somebody. But I don't know what else God is. I don't know. I don't know where this force is, but I know my father's somewhere in the universe.

    8. JSJay Shetty58:02

       Yeah.

    9. KJKaran Johar58:02

       So I believe when you lose a parent, you do gain a god, and that's the one thing I live by as well.

    10. JSJay Shetty58:06

        Yeah. And, and I love what you were saying about, I think, ultimately, life is trying to teach each and every one of us to trust ourselves-

    11. KJKaran Johar58:13

        Yeah

    12. JSJay Shetty58:14

        ... to not have this false external dependence on some external force in this world as opposed to actually discovering within us where those answers evolve and come from.

    13. KJKaran Johar58:26

        Because, I mean, like, you, you've been brought into this world. The na- na- nature is a, is an unexplainable phenomena, how we've all been born, and we live this life. We're in this moment right now. I'm talking. You're listening. It's all so fantastical if you really look at it from an external gaze. I don't want to be dependent on anything because I need to find my own answers. I have to ask my own questions. It's as simple as that.

    14. JSJay Shetty58:48

        Yeah, yeah. And I think that that accountability and responsibility transforms people's lives, and I think that's what we should hope for everyone and everyone should aspire for rather than-

    15. KJKaran Johar58:58

        And again-

    16. JSJay Shetty58:58

        ... hoping that someone else will make a choice

    17. KJKaran Johar58:59

        ... and again, I say to each his own.

    18. JSJay Shetty59:00

        Yeah.

    19. KJKaran Johar59:00

        You find your space, your happiness, your joy in your belief system. You must do what makes you happy.

    20. JSJay Shetty59:06

        Yeah.

    21. KJKaran Johar59:06

        If you feel, "This is what I need to do for myself," please do it.

    22. JSJay Shetty59:09

        Yeah.

    23. KJKaran Johar59:09

        There is no right or wrong in any practice-

    24. JSJay Shetty59:12

        Yeah

    25. KJKaran Johar59:12

        ... in any belief system. There's just perspective. You have it for yourself. You operate therefore.

    26. JSJay Shetty59:18

        Yeah, definitely. In, when, when in your life did you realize you were comfortable being single?

    27. KJKaran Johar59:23

        You know, through my... When I turned 40, I had a deep desire of finding a partner, and I was like,

20. 59:28 – 1:04:13

    Turning Heartbreak Into Growth

    1. KJKaran Johar59:28

       "How can I be single? I need love. I need this. I need that." And, and then I went ahead and had my babies. I was fortunate. Before, you know, the laws were made, I could have, um, you know, through the legal route, uh, my babies. And when the babies were born in 2017, I realized that my, uh, quota of love that I felt was owed to me by the universe was brimming, was full, and, uh, the, it's, the biggest love story of my life is now my mom and my kids. And, um, I felt like, okay, so I could get the joy of intimacy with somebody. Um, I could be physically intimate with a person and enjoy that experience. I could be dating somebody who kind of helps complete that moment in my life, but do I really need an external human being, another person to live with, uh, to complete me? No, I feel very complete already. And am I closing that door completely? Not at all. You never know. You never say never. But today, if you ask me, am I looking? No. Am I dating? No. Am I happy being single? Yes. Am I happy s- sharing my bedroom with no one? Yes. My bathroom with no one? Yes. Do I think I can? No.

    2. JSJay Shetty1:00:38

       [laughs]

    3. KJKaran Johar1:00:38

       Uh, if I'm in a relationship, get a room. Uh, uh-

    4. JSJay Shetty1:00:41

       [laughs]

    5. KJKaran Johar1:00:41

       ... we'll meet for breakfast. [laughs]

    6. JSJay Shetty1:00:43

       [laughs]

    7. KJKaran Johar1:00:43

       Uh, uh, we'll meet for lunch and dinner, but you can't stay with me. That's... I'm now set in my way. Will I fall in love? Well, I hope I rise in it, firstly, and because I've done my bit of falling. It's not fun, and I've been through one-sided love stories. I've been through unrequited romances. I've been through my own trauma vis-a-vis emotional search for your partner. Th- it's not worked for me. Let's just say it's not for me.

    8. JSJay Shetty1:01:08

       Mm.

    9. KJKaran Johar1:01:08

       Uh, at age 52, am I closing that door? As like I said, no, I'm not, but I'm very happy with my single status. I can't tell you the joy it gives me.

    10. JSJay Shetty1:01:17

        Did you ever have your heart broken? And-

    11. KJKaran Johar1:01:18

        Yes. Oh, yes. Twice.

    12. JSJay Shetty1:01:21

        Oh.

    13. KJKaran Johar1:01:21

        Uh, second time was tougher. Second time was a long love story of, uh, which I actually was almost cathartic because for me, I kind of autobiographically told it in Ae Dil Hai Mushkil, the story of one-sided love.

    14. JSJay Shetty1:01:32

        Yes, yes, yes.

    15. KJKaran Johar1:01:33

        Um-

    16. JSJay Shetty1:01:33

        I've seen that movie

    17. KJKaran Johar1:01:33

        ... uh, I-

    18. JSJay Shetty1:01:34

        I really, really-

    19. KJKaran Johar1:01:34

        That story is mine. Of course, I'm Ranbir Kapoor in that because I'm the one chasing somebody I couldn't get, um, and wanting something I, I, that... And no one lied to me, you know? The person involved never lied to me, always was clear, but I was just wanting it, and I was not myself in those seven years. I was not my personality type. I was out of character. I did things out of character, and I hate those d- years. When I look back, I'm like-I was so weak, but then it also empowered me. It made me feel alive. One part of me also felt like, oh, that romance, that love, that yearning is still there. So it was a bit of like a two things that were going on. One, I was hating the person I was being in those seven, eight years, but I was also enjoying the fact that that love had come back into my life, like it had reju- But that was a tough time.

    20. JSJay Shetty1:02:18

        Mm.

    21. KJKaran Johar1:02:18

        It taught me so much and made me mildly cynical at the end of that experience about love. Now I'm okay, 'cause I'm not s- I'm over that as well.

    22. JSJay Shetty1:02:24

        Mm.

    23. KJKaran Johar1:02:24

        Like, I'm not cynical about love. I'm just happy being single.

    24. JSJay Shetty1:02:27

        Yeah. How did you heal and overcome that?

    25. KJKaran Johar1:02:29

        Time.

    26. JSJay Shetty1:02:29

        Because that seven years is a long time.

    27. KJKaran Johar1:02:30

        Time. I also went through a bout of anxiety in that phase.

    28. JSJay Shetty1:02:33

        Mm.

    29. KJKaran Johar1:02:33

        And that was, uh, my first burst, you know, with a psychiatrist, uh, where I actually spoke about it, and I needed medication because I was feeling... Uh, I didn't realize at that time what I was going through until she analyzed it for me and said, "You know, you have... It's a form of depression. You're going through this, and it's anxiety. And, uh, you need to be medicated if you want to lead a regular, normal life." And those sessions with her really helped me. That medication helped me. I weaned it off eventually, but then I came back into it in March last year, where I got this attack. Actually, you were there.

    30. JSJay Shetty1:03:09

        Yeah, we touched. We were there.
21. 1:04:13 – 1:09:30

    Social Anxiety in the Public Eye

    1. KJKaran Johar1:04:13

       uncomfortable in crowds of people after a point. I always leave parties early, and this is a new thing that has started in my life. I don't like to go. I, I get cold feet before, you know, any kind of a massive big event I have to go to. But if I'm on stage hosting an award show, I'm fine. You know, if you put me on stage and there are 10,000 people in front of me, I'm okay. But if I'm in that 10,000 people [laughs] , you take me to a rock concert or, like... I, I won't be able to do it.

    2. JSJay Shetty1:04:36

       Wow.

    3. KJKaran Johar1:04:37

       I can't do it.

    4. JSJay Shetty1:04:37

       Yeah.

    5. KJKaran Johar1:04:38

       I just can't. I just don't like to be in the middle of a crowd. And from somebody who thrived on it, from somebody who loved it, from somebody who was at every single social event and party because I really wanted to and loved it, I've gone the exact opposite way.

    6. JSJay Shetty1:04:52

       What changed?

    7. KJKaran Johar1:04:53

       I have no clue, Jay. I have no idea what happened. I think it was excessive in my life, and now it's like, you know, it's too much of something.

    8. JSJay Shetty1:05:02

       Mm.

    9. KJKaran Johar1:05:02

       And then you start developing a fear of it.

    10. JSJay Shetty1:05:05

        Yeah.

    11. KJKaran Johar1:05:05

        And that's what happened to me. Like, I have the m- the most ironical thing happened to me, is that I developed a form of social anxiety.

    12. JSJay Shetty1:05:14

        Would you ever want to go back to being the other way again, or it's more just managing-

    13. KJKaran Johar1:05:18

        I think I'm, I, I'm not saying I'm happy with the situation, 'cause I'm on medication.

    14. JSJay Shetty1:05:21

        Sure.

    15. KJKaran Johar1:05:21

        But I don't know if I want to go back to that either. I think I've found... What I did find in these years is a lot of great joy spending time with myself.

    16. JSJay Shetty1:05:32

        Mm.

    17. KJKaran Johar1:05:33

        I found myself as my closest companion. I was never my best friend. I've become very close to myself in the last couple of years. I finally feel like my companion is now me. My life partner is now me. And we're getting along really well. I'm also Gemini, so-

    18. JSJay Shetty1:05:52

        [laughs]

    19. KJKaran Johar1:05:53

        Uh, that also works in a certain way.

    20. JSJay Shetty1:05:55

        Yeah. That's a beautiful place to be, though.

    21. KJKaran Johar1:05:55

        You get two for the price of one. But, but I finally found my life companion.

    22. JSJay Shetty1:05:59

        Yeah.

    23. KJKaran Johar1:05:59

        And, uh, we're doing very well.

    24. JSJay Shetty1:06:02

        Yeah. [laughs] I think, I actually think that's a beautiful place to be even when you're in a relationship. So my wife and I, we're thankful to have a wonderful relationship. We've been together for 11 years now, and I still feel that my relationship with myself is my most important relationship.

    25. KJKaran Johar1:06:17

        Yeah.

    26. JSJay Shetty1:06:17

        And she does with herself, and I think that that's so important-

    27. KJKaran Johar1:06:20

        Yeah

    28. JSJay Shetty1:06:21

        ... even in a relationship. Because otherwise, if you're always trying to fill your gaps with the other person, and you have to call them, and you have to message them, and you have to be together, A, it's not physically possible, B, you will be separated at some point, whether through travel or by life inevitably, and building that relationship with yourself to be able to spend a weekend by yourself, an evening, a month sometimes, I think is one of the most beautiful traits and abilities. So to hear about it from you is, is actually really, really special. And one thing that you shared with me that I... that really resonated with me about social anxiety was this feeling we all have of letting people down.

    29. KJKaran Johar1:07:01

        Yeah.

    30. JSJay Shetty1:07:01

        And so when it's the people that are around us that we know, we all have this feeling of like, "I h- I hope that person doesn't feel I didn't say hello to them, and that person maybe-"
22. 1:09:30 – 1:11:43

    Balancing Fatherhood and Sonship With Compassion

    1. KJKaran Johar1:09:30

       you know? So all this I think put together has built this-

    2. JSJay Shetty1:09:33

       Yeah, yeah

    3. KJKaran Johar1:09:33

       ... this anxiety.

    4. JSJay Shetty1:09:34

       Yeah. And I, and I, I think I shared with you, I, I feel that pressure sometimes, or I used to many years ago that I let go of, was everyone was always waiting for me to say something profound.

    5. KJKaran Johar1:09:43

       Yeah.

    6. JSJay Shetty1:09:44

       And-

    7. KJKaran Johar1:09:44

       Yeah

    8. JSJay Shetty1:09:44

       ... and just waiting for someone, for you to say something that's gonna be earth shattering.

    9. KJKaran Johar1:09:47

       But you could also enjoy saying something frivolous.

    10. JSJay Shetty1:09:49

        Yeah, totally. And, and-

    11. KJKaran Johar1:09:50

        Like, why?

    12. JSJay Shetty1:09:50

        Totally. And, and I don't like to give unsolicited advice also. So [laughs] if someone's not sitting with me as a client, as someone that I'm guiding, as someone that I have that kind of relationship with, I'm not just gonna suddenly tell them life advice or tell them how to live.

    13. KJKaran Johar1:10:04

        No, for what? Yeah.

    14. JSJay Shetty1:10:05

        And, and if I don't know you at all, sometimes I'll say to people, like, who I've spent 10 seconds with them, they say, "Can you give me some life-changing advice?" I'm like, "The most life-changing advice I can tell you is I don't know you, and you know yourself better than I know you, so you're more likely to find it within you." Because I, I don't have all the answers to everything. I don't know everything about everything, and I don't believe anyone does either. And so I, I totally resonate with you in my own way, and I think everyone who's listening, whether they're a public figure or not, I know everyone feels this way. [laughs]

    15. KJKaran Johar1:10:32

        Yeah, because I think, I always feel like people are seeking some sense of guidance, validation-

    16. JSJay Shetty1:10:37

        Yeah

    17. KJKaran Johar1:10:37

        ... searching. That's why you resort to spiritual forces, religious forces, learnings, books, discourses, and I'm like, "You know the answer. If you really looked within, you have the answer." Like I said right at the top of our chat, instinct. Instinct will tell you. You'll know this is the right thing to do. You don't need anyone to guide you. And of course, people must of course do what they need to do in the moment, but really do, we do have the answers. We underestimate ourselves-

    18. JSJay Shetty1:11:04

        Yeah

    19. KJKaran Johar1:11:04

        ... as a race.

    20. JSJay Shetty1:11:05

        Yeah.

    21. KJKaran Johar1:11:05

        We all know what we really need to satisfy our souls.

    22. JSJay Shetty1:11:08

        Yeah, yeah. You define yourself on Instagram as a father first, then a filmmaker, and I was very grateful to meet Roohi and Yash-

    23. KJKaran Johar1:11:15

        Yes, yes

    24. JSJay Shetty1:11:16

        ... last time I was here in Mumbai. They're so sweet and so wonderful and, and playful and-

    25. KJKaran Johar1:11:20

        Yeah

    26. JSJay Shetty1:11:20

        ... I was wondering like being a only child, now being a single parent, how has that... And having beautiful parents who you speak of so highly, how has that impacted your i- uh, your journey of being a father?

    27. KJKaran Johar1:11:35

        It's very difficult. Firstly, I have to say being a s- only child and a single parent is a double whammy no one asks for [laughs] or wants,

23. 1:11:43 – 1:13:49

    Preparing Children for a Grounded, Modern Life

    1. KJKaran Johar1:11:43

       but it just so happened. Choices, the choice I made of being a single parent is something, but I didn't choose to be an only child. That was my parents' choice. Uh, but today when my mom is not doing very well and she's keeping poor health, it's really tough because you're constantly torn. And there's guilt every time I'm with my parents and, uh, with my mo- with my kids and joyous, I feel about my mom. When I'm with my mom, then I feel I'm denying my children time. It's like you feel... And I live with my mom. You know, we live together. So I'm very grateful that I can, you know, be a part of her immediate day and take care of her needs and requirements, but I'm not there a lot because I also run a studio. So there's... And a, a creative studio, you know, you are the one point of contact for so many things at a given point of time. There are 18 questions people have on a daily basis, and you have to constantly answer. So it's all right now, right now is, uh, as I said, an emotionally, uh, tough time in a sense because my mother's health and my kids at a certain impressionable age, they're eight, and then the studio. Everything is like happening all at once. Everything everywhere all at once. And like it's, um, it's a bit daunting. Uh, but you know, again, like I said, what's the point of like, you know, uh, like feeling terrible? You're gonna... Because self-pity is also a spa, you know? It makes you feel really good temporarily.

    2. JSJay Shetty1:13:08

       [laughs]

    3. KJKaran Johar1:13:09

       But it's not gonna... Like, you'll need that treatment once in a while, but you can't live in a spa.

    4. JSJay Shetty1:13:13

       Yeah. [laughs]

    5. KJKaran Johar1:13:14

       You know? You have to get out of there and face the world.

    6. JSJay Shetty1:13:16

       Yeah.

    7. KJKaran Johar1:13:16

       So I love visiting that spa once in a while, feel terri- terrible for myself.

    8. JSJay Shetty1:13:21

       Yeah.

    9. KJKaran Johar1:13:21

       I sit there in that spa, feel terrible for myself, and then know that I have to get out there and, and, and make it all happen.

    10. JSJay Shetty1:13:27

        Yeah. Yeah.

    11. KJKaran Johar1:13:28

        You know? So yeah. So right now, how does it make me feel? Makes me feel like a bit overwhelmed.

    12. JSJay Shetty1:13:33

        Yeah. How do you help your children prepare for, like you were saying at the beginning of our conversation, the different life that they have as you had, and how have you... What are some of the things you have to think about, talk about, connect with them, communicate about to help them prepare the, in the way

24. 1:13:49 – 1:16:33

    Redefining Masculinity on Your Own Terms

    1. JSJay Shetty1:13:49

       that you didn't have?

    2. KJKaran Johar1:13:50

       I ha- didn't have a lot, um, so I was able to, um, kind of find my feet my own way. The kids, whether I like it or not, are much more entitled and privileged than I ever was. They have much more already. So I have to first kind of ground them-

    3. JSJay Shetty1:14:08

       Mm

    4. KJKaran Johar1:14:08

       ... and root them. It's very tough.

    5. JSJay Shetty1:14:10

       It's just so hard, yeah.

    6. KJKaran Johar1:14:10

       It's very tough.

    7. JSJay Shetty1:14:12

       So hard.

    8. KJKaran Johar1:14:12

       How do you do it? Because they're already, you know, in a good car, in a g- good home-On holiday, staying at the best hotels, traveling well, eating well. Nothing is denied to them, so... And when you deny, then there's peer pressure comparison with other kids who are getting stuff and you're not giving it to them, then you combat that. Uh, I have no one to share that, that responsibility, so all I can do is teach them goodness and kindness and sociability. Like, I can like, "Be kind." I always say, "So at least the moral value system I can control," or rather control is a too stronger word. I can monitor-

    9. JSJay Shetty1:14:47

       Mm.

    10. KJKaran Johar1:14:47

        ... or I can look over. I can make sure that they're good, kind souls. That's all that I tell them to be. Be kind, helpful, share, be warm, meet people warmly, respect your elders, respect your friends. You know? Life lessons like that is what I'm really focusing on because the privilege I cannot do anything about. I can of course deny, make s- changes and tweaks, but they are born to privilege-

    11. JSJay Shetty1:15:12

        Mm-hmm

    12. KJKaran Johar1:15:12

        ... and there's nothing I can do about that.

    13. JSJay Shetty1:15:13

        Yeah.

    14. KJKaran Johar1:15:13

        So I've learned to kind of accept that and mold them as human beings because I hope that eventually they're strong human beings, they will understand the power of privilege-

    15. JSJay Shetty1:15:22

        Yeah

    16. KJKaran Johar1:15:23

        ... and know how to handle it when they grow older.

    17. JSJay Shetty1:15:25

        I think you're right. I think that's the right order.

    18. KJKaran Johar1:15:27

        Yeah.

    19. JSJay Shetty1:15:27

        If you try and disrupt the privilege, you can't.

    20. KJKaran Johar1:15:29

        No.

    21. JSJay Shetty1:15:29

        It will always be there.

    22. KJKaran Johar1:15:30

        There's no point. It's like fighting a battle that, you know you won't win.

    23. JSJay Shetty1:15:33

        Yeah.

    24. KJKaran Johar1:15:33

        But if I tomorrow make them good solid human beings, they will not misuse their privilege.

    25. JSJay Shetty1:15:38

        Yeah. How has your feeling around the word man and masculinity changed from those early days of being told you were not man enough, you didn't run like a man or walk like a man? How, how do you now define what it means to be a man and masculinity?

    26. KJKaran Johar1:15:53

        I mean, like, what is machismo and masculinity and, you know, h- but I mean, what does it even mean? It's a gender you were born with. You have nothing to do with that. You know? You have no reason to feel gloat about something that you had no control over. You're a man, so, you know, what makes you superior? What makes you feel superior? What makes you in control or command? You're just a human being as much as a, a woman is. That's the same thing. There is... I think that equality, uh, is such... It- all this inequality rather comes from like age-old, you know, society and patriarchy and misogyny is all part of like, it's things that we just keep inheriting,

25. 1:16:33 – 1:17:45

    Stop Shrinking to Fit In, Own Who You Are

    1. KJKaran Johar1:16:33

       and you've got to at some point in time just know that it's not a privilege that you're a man. No. There's not a privilege, and how dare you like think it is one?

    2. JSJay Shetty1:16:41

       Mm-hmm.

    3. KJKaran Johar1:16:41

       I don't know if I've... Today I walk this way and they're like, "Walk like a man," I'm like, "No, I'm walking like myself, and I love myself, and I will walk the way I want to." Do- I will, I refuse for people in my household to tell my children, "Don't wear, uh, pink," 'cause girls don't, boys don't wear pink. My son wears pink. I will never ever tell my girl, "Don't cry," and like I tell my son, "Don't cry like a girl," because these are things that have been told to me. No, he can cry. He's allowed to cry. He can run he- how he wants to. He can wear what he wants to. She can do what she wants to. They're both in taekwondo class together. They both play football. Um, they both sing and dance. They both go to the, the hula hoop class. They both do everything. That's how I want my kids to be. They must be in a... Of course, my son has some so-called conforming boyish, uh, you know, uh, like he does like and she does... He doesn't play with her dolls, but I've never encouraged. I never just bought dolls for her. I buy two of everything.

    4. JSJay Shetty1:17:34

       [laughs]

    5. KJKaran Johar1:17:34

       So if I'm buying her a doll, I buy him a doll, then it's his choice whether he wants to. But I'm not making any differentiation because to me they are the same. I know of the price I had to pay emotionally for

26. 1:17:45 – 1:20:18

    What It Really Means to Be a Progressive Parent

    1. KJKaran Johar1:17:45

       being singled out, and I do not want to do that with my children.

    2. JSJay Shetty1:17:47

       Mm-hmm.

    3. KJKaran Johar1:17:48

       Walk like a human being if you can and are able to.

    4. JSJay Shetty1:17:53

       Yeah.

    5. KJKaran Johar1:17:53

       Do not give yourself a gender, because a gender is not something that you had any control over. I can't give you a gold medal because you're born as a man.

    6. JSJay Shetty1:18:01

       [laughs] Yeah.

    7. KJKaran Johar1:18:02

       Your sperm chose to be one.

    8. JSJay Shetty1:18:04

       [laughs]

    9. KJKaran Johar1:18:04

       You know, that's all. That's all. That-

    10. JSJay Shetty1:18:05

        Yeah

    11. KJKaran Johar1:18:06

        ... you know, somebody's sperm chose to be one. Sorry. Someone's egg and sperm made you a man.

    12. JSJay Shetty1:18:09

        Yeah.

    13. KJKaran Johar1:18:09

        You have nothing to do with-

    14. JSJay Shetty1:18:11

        Yeah

    15. KJKaran Johar1:18:11

        ... like that. So I mean, like I, I, I have no... I don't ever think masculinity and machismo and all that are things that I even want to discuss because it's so irrelevant-

    16. JSJay Shetty1:18:21

        Mm

    17. KJKaran Johar1:18:21

        ... to my think- way of thinking.

    18. JSJay Shetty1:18:22

        Yeah. Do you, do you think that, not that you've tried to be this, and not that you claim to be this, but that you being so open about these conversations has actually pushed the culture along as well?

    19. KJKaran Johar1:18:34

        I've done my bit-

    20. JSJay Shetty1:18:35

        Yeah

    21. KJKaran Johar1:18:35

        ... Jay, to kind of contribute to people of a certain orientation, um, to the community, um, through my cinema, through some of my, my own thoughts and expressions. In my own way I'm, I thought that maybe if I talk about it through my work, it'll be impressionable, and I hope it has. I've never shied away from talking about myself or what I represent, and, uh, I will always be the person I am. I've never conformed to society, so to say. Uh, I've always done what I've wanted, dressed the way I wanted to, expressed myself through my, my cinema, my fashion, myself, my thoughts, my ideologies. I've never ever pretended to be somebody I wasn't.

    22. JSJay Shetty1:19:15

        Mm.

    23. KJKaran Johar1:19:15

        I'm proud to be who I am, who I was born to be, and I have, I've told my life story to the midpoint of my life, and I plan to tell it further, and I want my kids to have that same level of confidence and joie de vivre that I have today being myself. I'm comfortable in my skin. I'm not apologetic of who I am, and I never will be.

    24. JSJay Shetty1:19:33

        Mm-hmm. How hard was it to get to that clarity?

    25. KJKaran Johar1:19:37

        We live in, in a society that is judgmental and that is quick to kind of pick a, uh, point a finger at you, um, you know, if you're different from them. But you grow to kind of being the person you are without conforming to tradition. I always knew that marriage was not for me. I always knew that, you know, I didn't have to lie about who I was. I just knew these things somehow. They just came to me naturally, and I think it's to do with my progressive parenting. It's to do with the fact that my parents allowed me to be who I was. They never questioned anything. They never told me, "Don't wear that. Don't do this. Don't dance like that. Don't walk like that." No one told me anything. Unknowingly perhaps, maybe, they were very progressive and very,

27. 1:20:18 – 1:27:51

    Karan on Final Five

    1. KJKaran Johar1:20:18

       very-... forward-thinking in their approach to me. I was privileged because of my parenting, not because of my, my monetary circumstance or my financial circumstance at that time. It was, I was privileged to very progressive parents. Not everybody around me has that privilege.

    2. JSJay Shetty1:20:33

       Mm.

    3. KJKaran Johar1:20:34

       My request is always to parents that, you know, please know that your child has to be loved no matter what-

    4. JSJay Shetty1:20:42

       Mm

    5. KJKaran Johar1:20:42

       ... you think or you believe. Love is something that you cannot not give. If they are of a certain orientation, you have to accept it, and you have to allow them to be the person they are because they choose to be that, and they want to be that. And give them the freedom and joy of being that.

    6. JSJay Shetty1:21:00

       Yeah.

    7. KJKaran Johar1:21:01

       That's all.

    8. JSJay Shetty1:21:02

       It's great advice. Great advice. I, I mirror it similarly. I think my parents gave me the freedom. When I told them I wanted to be a monk, they weren't the happiest. It's not the best news to get as parents, but they never blocked me. They never stopped me. When I told them I wanted to leave the mones- monastery, they never blocked me. They never stopped me. Same as when I said I'm gonna move to New York, and then later on to LA. Again, I think unknowingly my parents were very progressive as well, and that has been such a gift in my life.

    9. KJKaran Johar1:21:32

       Yeah.

    10. JSJay Shetty1:21:32

        Because even if uncles and aunts and society and people around us were judging those decisions or questioning them, because they were not... They were not positive about it, but they weren't negative about it. They were neutral about it, and that created such a freedom for me to become who I wanted to be and not become who they wanted me to be. And my father was somewhat aloof in my early years, too, and that was so useful. A lot of people, you know... And, and it's fair when people feel like their parents weren't around. I think my father not being around allowed me to become the man I wanted to be-

    11. KJKaran Johar1:22:06

        Yeah

    12. JSJay Shetty1:22:06

        ... and choose the male role models that I-

    13. KJKaran Johar1:22:07

        Yeah. Yeah

    14. JSJay Shetty1:22:07

        ... wanted to have. So Karan Johar, you have been so kind and gracious with your time. Thank you so much. Uh, we end every interview of On Purpose with a Final Five. These questions have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum, and I will break those rules, and I'm sure you will, too. Uh, but Karan Johar, these are your Final Five. The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

    15. KJKaran Johar1:22:29

        My father, "People need people."

    16. JSJay Shetty1:22:32

        Mm.

    17. KJKaran Johar1:22:33

        That's the three words.

    18. JSJay Shetty1:22:34

        Yeah.

    19. KJKaran Johar1:22:34

        Uh, if I have to expand on it-

    20. JSJay Shetty1:22:36

        Please

    21. KJKaran Johar1:22:36

        ... uh, he says that, "If you're not there for people, they won't be there for you."

    22. JSJay Shetty1:22:39

        Mm.

    23. KJKaran Johar1:22:40

        So, you know, you just need... People need people.

    24. JSJay Shetty1:22:43

        Yeah.

    25. KJKaran Johar1:22:43

        That's what he always told me.

    26. JSJay Shetty1:22:44

        Yeah, and it's okay to ask for help.

    27. KJKaran Johar1:22:45

        And what is equal in Hindi, it's called duniyadari.

    28. JSJay Shetty1:22:48

        Mm.

    29. KJKaran Johar1:22:49

        You know?

    30. JSJay Shetty1:22:49

        Yeah.

Episode duration: 1:27:51