DATING EXPERT: The #1 Mistake Most People Make in Dating

1. 0:00 – 1:19

   Intro

   1. LULogan Ury0:00

      The biggest lie that we've been sold in love is this idea of the spark. We interpret it as chemistry when it's actually anxiety. Only 11% of people experience love at first sight.

   2. JSJay Shetty0:12

      So you don't believe in the one?

   3. LULogan Ury0:14

      I don't believe in the one. We've become so obsessed with finding the perfect person instead of building the perfect relationship.

   4. JSJay Shetty0:23

      Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. This might be the most requested dating episode we've ever done because so many of you keep asking the same question, "Why do I keep chasing the wrong person? Why can't I find the right person?" Today we're joined by best-selling author and Hinge's Director of Relationship Science, Logan Ury. Logan challenges one of dating's biggest myths. What does the spark really mean, and is it actually leading you in the wrong direction? If you're tired of confusing chemistry with compatibility, I don't want you to miss this episode. Please welcome to On Purpose Logan Ury. Logan Ury, welcome to On Purpose. Thank you for being here.

   5. LULogan Ury1:08

      Yay, I'm so happy to be here.

   6. JSJay Shetty1:10

      It's so great to have you. I've been wanting to have you in this seat for so long. You've been such a requested guest for us.

   7. LULogan Ury1:15

      Thank you. I'm so excited for this conversation.

   8. JSJay Shetty1:18

      So I wanna dive right in.

   9. LULogan Ury1:18

      Let's

2. 1:19 – 4:13

   The Problem with Modern Dating Expectations

   1. LULogan Ury1:19

      do it.

   2. JSJay Shetty1:19

      My first question is what is the biggest mistake that people are making in dating right now?

   3. LULogan Ury1:24

      One of the biggest mistakes I see people making is really having unrealistic expectations around relationships, around dating, around their partner, and around themselves. And so through my coaching, I've categorized this into a framework that I call the three dating tendencies, and I know you took the quiz on this, so I'm excited to see your results of the quiz. But just to walk you through it, so the first type is the romanticizer, and the romanticizer, I think a lot of people out there will relate to this, they are worried about finding their soulmate, and they believe there's one person out there for everyone and I'll know it when I see it. And so this person is very, very focused on the we met and their partner looking the way they expect. And the second type is the maximizer, and the maximizer has unrealistic expectations of their partner. And so you know you're a maximizer if you say things like, "I just wanna keep searching" or, "I found someone great, but I wanna find someone even better." And this is the person who's never satisfied. They always wonder what else is out there, the sort of the grass is greener person. And the third type is the hesitator, and the hesitator has unrealistic expectations of themselves. And so the hesitator says things like, "I'll be ready to date when... When I lose five pounds, when I get a better job, when I finally clean up my apartment." And so there's a sense within them that they're not datable and that they need to become a different person before they're gonna put themselves out there because no one would fall for them with who they are right now.

   4. JSJay Shetty2:57

      So you don't believe in the one?

   5. LULogan Ury2:59

      I don't believe in the one, no. I feel like there's so many great people who you could make a life with, and that it's really interesting because I think especially for the maximizer type, there's almost this premise of it's 95% who you choose and 5% the effort you put in. And I don't have exact numbers on this, but my framework would be more like it's 25% who you choose and 75% the effort you put in. And instead in our society we've become so obsessed with, like, finding the perfect person instead of building the perfect relationship.

   6. JSJay Shetty3:31

      I actually love that approach, and I find that so fascinating because we place so much emphasis not even on choosing the right person-

   7. LULogan Ury3:39

      Mm-hmm

   8. JSJay Shetty3:39

      ... but finding the right person, believing that they exist, rather than thinking, "Okay, I've gotta choose someone who hopefully I'll have a better chance with because they're choosing me too, and we're gonna work on it together." And that work part being your emphasis feels like the right place to place the priority. With your three, I love the romanticizer, the hesitator, and the maximizer. Ultimately, are we trying to just improve? I saw your email that came through with my assessment, which I thought was great, and it gave me really actionable tips to say, "Here's how to stop being X. Here's how to improve this area

3. 4:13 – 6:23

   The Three Types of Daters

   1. JSJay Shetty4:13

      of your life." What are we trying to get to? 'Cause we're ultimately one of these three. W- what are we trying to be?

   2. LULogan Ury4:18

      Yeah, that's a great, great question. So the point of the three dating tendencies is to understand that you probably have dating blind spots, so these are patterns of behavior or ways of thinking that are holding you back from finding love but that you can't identify on your own. And in my coaching, and I'm sure you've felt this too, people often come in and they're like, "My biggest issue is what I look like," or, "My biggest issue is that I work too much." And almost 100% of the time, that's not what their biggest issue is because if they knew what their biggest issue was, they could fix it. But a lot of times it's something else that they don't realize. And so the point of knowing your dating tendency is to say something like, "Okay, I'm a maximizer. I'm always looking for the next best thing. I'm actually gonna switch and become what I call a satisficer," which I can get into, "and really understand that if I wanna move to the next level, if I wanna go from the guy who dates someone for three months and then always tries to trade up, but I really wanna get married and have kids, I have to overcome this tendency in order to move to the next stage, or else I'll keep repeating this for years to come."

   3. JSJay Shetty5:22

      Yeah. That's fascinating that we're not aware of the thing that's blocking us, and usually it's some distraction that we've imagined up and said, "Oh, it's because I'm never available." And, and what you're saying is this actually helps us get to the root of where it comes from and why it exists in the first place.

   4. LULogan Ury5:38

      Yeah. And so my background is in behavioral science, which is the study of how people make decisions, and this is just what fascinates me about the world, is so often we're not making decisions in a conscious way. We are really following these invisible scripts. And so the point of my work and of the three dating tendencies is to say, "Let's make the invisible visible, and then we can identify the problem, make a plan, and then you can show up differently and get different results."

   5. JSJay Shetty6:03

      Yeah, absolutely. I'll share my results in a second. I wanna ask you a couple more things about that before we get there.Because you worked in data, I wanted to ask you what data point have you come across? I feel like there's so much great research now about love and dating and matching. It's better than it's ever been before. We have more access. I wanna share a few stats with you in a second.

4. 6:23 – 8:07

   Do You Believe In a Soulmate?

   1. JSJay Shetty6:23

      But what would you say has been the thing that has shocked you the most, the data point that you saw and you went, "I cannot believe that's true"?

   2. LULogan Ury6:30

      One data point that shocked me recently and actually made me happy is I saw through some research that we did at Hinge that, well, I'll start by saying I think people think that Gen Z's really nihilistic, they love dark humor, they're really pragmatic. And so I would've guessed that Gen Z was not romantic at all, that they would just be like, "Okay," like, "Nothing else in the world is working out. I was born into this really tough moment in history," and I would think that they wouldn't be romantic. But what we saw in our data at Hinge is that Gen Z is actually 30% more likely than millennials to believe in the idea of a soulmate, and they're 39% more likely than millennials to identify as someone who's romantic or idealistic about romance. And so I think that we should not cut this generation short and think, "Oh, they're not interested in romance." They really are. They really are yearning for romance, even to the point of, you know, believing in a soulmate, which I said I don't.

   3. JSJay Shetty7:26

      Yeah.

   4. LULogan Ury7:27

      But there's so much holding them back, and I know we'll get into it in this conversation, but really, this fear of rejection and fear of embarrassment, fear of cringe. And so this data point of Gen Z actually being quite romantic has really stuck out to me.

   5. JSJay Shetty7:41

      Yeah, yeah. It's interesting that, like you said, even though you don't believe in a soulmate, the fact that this whole generation does, or a lot of the generation does, it at least points to a belief in love and a value in love, and we just need to figure out what that is. I wanted to ask you about a couple of statistics that I pulled out that-

   6. LULogan Ury7:58

      Great. Let's do it

   7. JSJay Shetty7:59

      ... blew my mind that I think these speak to what we're struggling with in the dating landscape right now, and I wanted to share some. So we'll go through one at a time.

   8. LULogan Ury8:06

      Sure.

   9. JSJay Shetty8:06

      And I'd love to get

5. 8:07 – 9:40

   Why Dating Burnout Is So Common

   1. JSJay Shetty8:07

      your reaction to it. This stat says 53% of singles reported dating burnout, and I think dating burnout is what we're seeing all across the board. When you see that, talk to me about the behavioral science. Talk to me about the reasoning why we're experiencing dating burnout. What is it? Because we're all thinking it might be the apps. It might be that there's no good people out there left anymore. All the great people are taken. What is actually happening? What are you seeing?

   2. LULogan Ury8:31

      When I hear that, I feel so sad. Like, they can't remember the last time they went out on a date? I feel like we're just sort of missing the plot here. It's like part of being young is dating and meeting new people and figuring out who you are, and it's almost like dating has become a job, and then people feel like they need to take a break from it. And so at Hinge, one of the biggest data points that we've seen around burnout is that something that causes it is lack of responsiveness. So I send you a message, we're going back and forth, and then you just stop responding, and then it makes me feel like, "What did I do wrong? Why are you rejecting me? Why doesn't anyone wanna be with me?" And I sort of spiral, and after a while, you just need to take a break from that feeling. And so part of it is just, I think, in dating culture right now, we're really taking each other for granted, and there's a sense of like, "If I disappoint you, well, there's someone else waiting for me." And also, there's no context. Like, if your sister-in-law introduced us, then you would know that if you did something not so nice to me, someone would be hearing about it. But I think we are lacking some of that context right now, and we're just not treating each other which as much, with as much integrity as we should

6. 9:40 – 12:46

   Why Does Dating Feel So Difficult Today?

   1. LULogan Ury9:40

      be.

   2. JSJay Shetty9:40

      Yeah, I think the accountability piece is huge, what you're just saying right now, that if we introduced through a friend or a family member, you're gonna have someone to answer to as to why it didn't work out. And but the challenge about that is, as you said, is you can't control that. Like, you can't control someone being responsive. And so it becomes harder and harder to put yourself out there and feel like, oh, I thought we'd... Someone told me last week, "Oh, I'd scheduled a date. We've been talking for three days straight, and then all of a sudden, even though we set a date and place and time, when I text to confirm, the person has ghosted me." And it's like I have no idea what went wrong. And so there is, there's a sense of wanting everyone to be more confident, but there's also a sense of like, how much can we take?

   3. LULogan Ury10:19

      I totally agree, and it's interesting because I'm married, you're married. I've been with my husband for a long time. We, in a way, are a bit removed from rejection. But I have a two-year-old, and I was talking to different families about who we would do a nanny share with. And this woman basically wrote me, like, a breakup text, essentially being like, "We don't wanna move forward doing a nanny share with you." And I was hysterical. And I know that sounds crazy, but it was, like, the first time that I'd really felt that rejection in a while of someone, like, meeting you, getting to know you, and saying, "No, I don't wanna, quote-unquote, 'be with you.'" And I think sometimes married people forget how painful that rejection is, and so I just wanna validate that feeling where, yeah, dating really is hard. You're putting yourself out there and you're saying, "This is who I am," and then someone says, "Yes or no, I wanna be with you."

   4. JSJay Shetty11:07

      Looking for love is almost like-It's, it's, it's a bit harder than that because it inv- involves two people, and you feeling like, "I have to convince this other person that I'm worthy."

   5. LULogan Ury11:15

      I work with men and women, but a lot of the women are in their, let's say, mid-30s to mid-40s, and they're kind of wondering, like, "Did I miss the boat?" And there's a sense of if I wanted to run a marathon, I know how to train for it. If I wanted to get a promotion, I could just put a lot of effort in. And that dating is this uniquely hard thing because you can't just put effort in and get results. Someone else has to choose you as well. I think that's one of the reasons it's uniquely challenging, is because it's outside of your individual effort and control.

   6. JSJay Shetty11:47

      Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that's what I was thinking that work-wise as well, there is a sense of I can put in more effort, and I can, not control the outcome, but I can impact it hopefully a bit more closely.

   7. LULogan Ury11:57

      And my husband and I talk about this all the time because work is very seductive. If I have more input, then I'll get more output, and you sort of know what the path is, and you can kind of say like, "Well, if I crush work, then I'll get this promotion, then I'll make more money." And like dating just isn't the same thing. There's not like a guaranteed reward if you put effort in. And so I do often say to people that I work with, like, "Don't fall for the seductiveness of work," because, yes, um, it's easily measurable, and it can make you feel good when you get those promotions or that affirmation. But also remember that you should put effort into love, too. I don't really think it works when you're just like, "Okay, like I'm just gonna spend my 20s on work, and then in my 30s I'll start dating," because you'll probably be behind. You haven't developed the skills that you need to really be a great

7. 12:46 – 14:01

   The Fear of Choosing the Wrong Person

   1. LULogan Ury12:46

      dater.

   2. JSJay Shetty12:46

      So if effort's the catalyst in work, what's the catalyst in love?

   3. LULogan Ury12:51

      I do think you need a lot of effort in love. It's just that it's not as guaranteed. Like, I think in hustle culture, all of this work environment that you've been seeing, let's say, for the last 10 years, like productivity and work maxing and this and that, I think people just fall into it because it feels like you know what the result will be. So it's more that it's less about work is effort and love isn't, and it's more that work feels like some guaranteed results. And I remember about a year ago, I was working on a project, and I was talking to single daters in their mid-20s. I talked to this guy, like super handsome, fun guy, like definitely the type of person I would've been drawn to when I was in my 20s, and he was like, "Yeah, why would I go on a date that could potentially go nowhere when I could just be at home and edit a YouTube video?" And I was like, "What?"

   4. JSJay Shetty13:38

      [laughs]

   5. LULogan Ury13:38

      Like, it blew my mind. Like, I was just... I just didn't understand, and he was like, "Well, if I edit the YouTube video, like I know I'll get this many views, and I'll improve in this way, whereas the date has no guarantee." I think that's sort of one of the things that I'm seeing right now is that people are struggling with dating because it is a lot of unknown, whereas work seems like more of a known quantity.

8. 14:01 – 14:04

   What Is “Chalant” Dating?

   1. JSJay Shetty14:01

      I completely agree with you. How do we then train

9. 14:04 – 15:46

   Why Hustle Culture Fails in Dating

   1. JSJay Shetty14:04

      the human mind to be okay with investing in an area that has very little chance of return, but if you found the return, it's like striking gold and life-changing? How do you discipline yourself to put an effort in an area which, as you're saying, is uncertain?

   2. LULogan Ury14:19

      I'm glad we're talking about this 'cause this is definitely the thing that I've been obsessed with lately. So from a coaching perspective, step one is just to be really, really clear on your goal. And that's why I was so happy to see that despite what I might have thought, Gen Z really is romantic and excited about finding someone. And so I think you have to be clear on your goal in order to overcome a bunch of hurdles and discomfort to get there. And the second thing is what we're calling chalant dating. So everyone knows what nonchalant means. It means you act detached. You pretend that you don't care. And it's really this battle of who can care less. And I feel like dating has been in this area for a while now, let's say like at least a decade. And I just hear this all the time, "Oh, he waited five hours to text me back, so I'm gonna wait six hours." And when I dug into why this is happening, I feel like a lot of it is because of this surveillance culture that we have now, where it used to be that if you sent someone a text message and it was a little embarrassing or, you know, didn't quite hit the mark, like it disappeared. But now it gets screenshotted and sent to the group chat, or worse, it makes it onto Instagram or TikTok or someone's doing a story time about it. And so I feel like we just live in a society where it's a lot harder to fail. Because if you fail, it feels like it's forever, and it's shared with the world. And so what I'm seeing is that a generation that is afraid to embarrass themselves,

10. 15:46 – 18:52

    Two Ways to Approach Dating Intentionally

    1. LULogan Ury15:46

       for them, it's like the worst thing you can be is sincere. The worst thing you can do is be cringe. And the truth is that most things in life worth having you have to take a risk for. I'm sure that you don't have this job because you just sat back and said, "Okay, well, if a recruiter reaches out to me, I'll take that job." It's like you literally created your dream job and your dream life by taking risks. And I have found with Gen Z that there's just such a fear of taking risks, and we're finding this in the Hinge data as well. And so Gen Z is much less likely than millennials to be willing to have a deep conversation on the first date. They're much more likely to say that they have a fear of being too much. And so you have this generation that's afraid of rejection, afraid of trying, afraid of effort. And then miraculously, this term came around, chalant dating, where people are like, "You know what? I'm tired of that. I'm tired of playing games. I'm tired of the battle of who can care less." And now we're really seeing that term has skyrocketed. So we've seen a 217% increase in that term in the last year. And on TikTok, you'll see all these videos like, "I want a chalant guy. I want someone to chalant me down." And so chalant dating is a combination of effort and vulnerability.It's saying, "I care. I'm gonna show you that I care, and I'm willing to be vulnerable, even at the risk of rejection."

    2. JSJay Shetty17:17

       Yeah. And, and what's fascinating, though, is we always get into that trend of, "I want someone [chuckles] to be this way," and it comes back to the same thing of like, well, we're gonna have to be this way, too, because there's only so much. I love that term because, again, it's like it goes back to what you said earlier, which is the goal. If your goal is I wanna find love and I wanna commit to someone and be in a monogamous relationship long-term, you're gonna have to be chalant. Because guess what? Even when you've been with someone for 10 years, you still have to be chalant.

    3. LULogan Ury17:43

       Definitely.

    4. JSJay Shetty17:43

       So the chalant never changes. It's always there. It's always care, effort, and vulnerability. And then it goes back to, well, if you don't know what your goal is-

    5. LULogan Ury17:51

       Mm-hmm

    6. JSJay Shetty17:51

       ... then of course you care more about what everyone else thinks or being cringe or being left on read or whatever it may be. And so it's, that goal piece I think is so important.

    7. LULogan Ury18:01

       Have you seen Heated Rivalry, or are you-

    8. JSJay Shetty18:03

       I have not-

    9. LULogan Ury18:03

       ... too hip about it?

    10. JSJay Shetty18:03

        ... seen it. No, no, no. I know e- I've heard about it from a million people, but I have not seen it.

    11. LULogan Ury18:07

        I really liked it. I don't think it's overrated. But it's been amazing to see the reaction to that show, and I think one of the reasons why is that it's a lot of chalant dating. And really the show has this pivotal point where one of the characters, Shane, who's been holding back his feelings, becomes more chalant. And he says this famous line, you know, "Come to the cottage. I want you to come to my cottage." And that's really about him showing effort and being vulnerable, and that changes everything. And people have really been drawn to the show because it's about loving out loud and yearning for someone, and I think people are missing that. And we just have this entire generation, and maybe even, you know, more than just Gen Z, that's sort of like sitting at home, hiding behind a screen, yearning

11. 18:52 – 20:24

    When Rejection Becomes Content

    1. LULogan Ury18:52

       for someone to yearn for them but being so afraid of showing effort. I just think it's a shame. It's like when did effort become cringe? When did trying for something become embarrassing? I think if you look at the psychology behind it, it really has to do with fear of rejection, and we found at Hinge that 95% of daters say that they have this fear of rejection. But if you just have people sitting at home not willing to try, then they're never going to get this thing that they clearly want, which is finding a great partner.

    2. JSJay Shetty19:23

       Yeah, and I think documented rejection's a painful point. It's what-

    3. LULogan Ury19:25

       Yeah

    4. JSJay Shetty19:25

       ... you said about the surveillance.

    5. LULogan Ury19:26

       Yeah.

    6. JSJay Shetty19:26

       So if someone's not replying back and then it goes to the group chat, or you send a text where you were really vulnerable and all of a sudden that text ends up in another group chat, and that's concerning because you, you don't wanna be exposed for being vulnerable. And, and I think that comes back to what you're saying. There's another statistic here that hits on that exactly. 40% of men aged 18 to 25 have never approached a woman in person. It sounds like that's happening because of a fear of rejection. It sounds like that's happening because of, "Well, I don't even know what to say. I don't even know how to start." It sounds like that's happening because we don't really do that anymore. So when me and you were dating at that age, I, that's all I ever did. All I ever had to do was pluck up the courage to go over to a girl in a bar or a restaurant or, or in the mall and say, "Hey, can I get your number?" And I remember how stressful that was. Like, it was stressful even back then, but that was the move, and sometimes you'd get rejected, sometimes it would work. And

12. 20:24 – 22:03

    Working Through the Discomfort

    1. JSJay Shetty20:24

       so how do we even encourage-- When we're saying people are losing basic connection skills, conversation skills. People are worried, "If I go up to someone, will I look like a creep?" People are worried, "I get rejected in public. How terrible will it look?" Everyone has their phones out now. How do we even begin to think about giving people these skills?

    2. LULogan Ury20:41

       Everything you're saying I agree with, where people listening to this who may have been married for a while or they're Millennial, Gen X, and older, they might be like, "Yeah, people have always been afraid of rejection." But I think what we're really calling out here is that this is a new and distinct thing, where Gen Z by nature of their surveillance culture, and also I do think the pandemic. You know, people don't wanna bring up the pandemic anymore, but it's like if you came of age during the pandemic, it did impact your social skills. And a lot of the Gen Z daters that I talk to say, you know, "I'm much more comfortable communicating through a screen," or, "I wanna be able to check it with ChatGPT first." And it's like, sure, you can use those as strategies to get to the date. But once you're on the date, it's still like the analog version-

    3. JSJay Shetty21:23

       [laughs]

    4. LULogan Ury21:23

       ... of like two people talking. You have to be able to make conversation. In terms of people approaching each other in public, I think the answer there is really just to work on experiencing discomfort and working through it and being able to see that rejection can actually be redirection. So when you hear a bunch of nos, those are nos that you're hearing on the way to a different yes. And so you have to get a bunch of nos to figure out what's right for you. And I think that if you're so fearful of a no, you never try, and you never get to that yes.

    5. JSJay Shetty21:59

       Yeah, absolutely. There was another one that reminds me of your hesitator. So this stat-

    6. LULogan Ury22:02

       Yeah

13. 22:03 – 23:47

    The Rise of a Hesitant Generation

    1. JSJay Shetty22:03

       ... this is why I put it in there. So 69% of Gen Z respondents say they're not ready for a relationship even though they may want one. Why do you think that is?

    2. LULogan Ury22:12

       That absolutely sounds like hesitators, and maybe we're talking about a generation of hesitators. And so when you dig into the psychology of a hesitator, a lot of it is around, "I'm not enough. I'm not where I need to be yet." And so I'll talk to, let's say, a male dater in his 20s in New York, and he'll say, "I can't date until I make six figures." And I find this is especially true with men, where there's this sense of women need me to be a provider. And for a number of sociological, cultural reasons, they don't feel like they're able to be that yet, so they don't even put themselves out there. But then on the other hand, we have the research and the insights into what women want. And so only 6% of female daters say they want a man who's the solo provider, and 72% of women on Hinge said that they'd much rather have someone who puts in effort than someone who makes more money. And so you have men saying, "I'm not eligible. I can't be the provider that I was told I need to be," and women saying, "Actually, things have changed. I am more of a provider than my mother's generation or my grandmother's generation. And so what I want is emotional intelligence, emotional availability, effort." And so you have two people who misunderstand what the other person wants, and then they're, they're not putting themselves out there.

    3. JSJay Shetty23:29

       That, I mean, that speaks to the root of so many challenges. When I spoke, and we're talking about heterosexual relationships, when I speak to women-Who say to me like, "Well, I just can't find the right guy. There's no good guys out there." And then when I speak to guys, they're like, "Well, I can't get a match on an app." And so then you go, wait a minute, what's going on here,

14. 23:47 – 26:04

    Why We’re Afraid to Make a Move

    1. JSJay Shetty23:47

       and where are we? So what are the other things that you're seeing that are almost causing this tension between men and women? So one of them being men think they need to be earning six figures. Women are saying, "Hey, we're happy to contribute." What are the other tension points that you're seeing that you think are misleading us from the actual point of what we're looking for?

    2. LULogan Ury24:05

       Yes, and so just to emphasize that effort point in Chalant Dating even more, I hear from women where they're like, "This guy, he doesn't need to fly me to the moon. I just want simple things. I want him to remember the name of my best friend from work. I want him to know that I have a big meeting and send me a text wishing me good luck or following up afterwards." And so women are saying like, "I want effort and I want care, and that's more important to me than money." And the men are just like, "Well, I was raised to, you know, be a lion, and the lion has to provide." And women are like, "Wait, no, I want a tiger who's emotional." And he's like, "But, but I wasn't raised for that." And so I do feel like the dating hasn't caught up with the data. The dating of how we interact and how in heterosexual relationships people perceive each other hasn't caught up with the fact that we do live in a different society where women are earning more money, and, you know, soon two-thirds of college graduates will be women. And so there's really a disconnect there.

    3. JSJay Shetty25:02

       On eBay, every find has a story. Like, if you're looking for a vintage band tee, not just a tee, the band tee from the last show your favorite band ever played. You wore it everywhere, then your best friend started wearing it, which was cute until they unfriended you and took it with them, which was not so cool. Anyway, now you're on eBay, and there it is, same tee from the same tour, still living in your memory rent-free forever. See? The things you love have a way of finding their way back to you. But eBay isn't just for getting whatever your ex or ex-best friend stole back. It's also for that rare championship foul ball you caught, then heroically gave to the kid next to you. And where else are you going to find your first car? The one you wish you never sold, but now finally get the chance to take back home, for good this time. Shop eBay for millions of finds, each with a story. eBay, things people love.

15. 26:04 – 36:53

    The Challenge of Male Vulnerability

    1. JSJay Shetty26:04

       There's a few things you said there that really caught my attention, and they're two very different things. The first one is this idea of men were not raised-

    2. LULogan Ury26:12

       Yeah

    3. JSJay Shetty26:12

       ... to be that vulnerable tiger, as you put it. And I do see that as being a real, real challenge for men, where the men that do feel they're vulnerable feel that they're not strong enough for women, and the men that feel like they're trying to become financially successful f- may not feel emotionally available, or women may not feel they're emotionally available. And then you're stuck in this catch-22. How does a group of men go on to... You know, it's almost like a big challenge to say, how do we get soci- how do we get men in society to actually develop some of those emotional intelligence skills?

    4. LULogan Ury26:47

       I just want to acknowledge that it's really complicated, and that I hear it from both sides. So there's this quote that I love from Brené Brown where she says, "Women beg men to be vulnerable, and they really want them to open up. But the second that they do, women can't stand it." And so it's like we tell men that we want them to be vulnerable, but actually in many ways, we want them to follow these scripts of masculinity. And so I think as a society, we're still sort of figuring it out. Like, there used to be more traditional gender roles, and I'm glad that we've developed past that. I'm glad that I can-

    5. JSJay Shetty27:18

       Yeah, me too

    6. LULogan Ury27:18

       ... make an income, and, like, I love my life and I love my career, but I also understand why people are confused, because when there's more ambiguity and more blurred lines, then people are figuring out their roles. And I think what you said is exactly what I'm seeing as well. You have men who aren't sure how vulnerable women actually want them to be, and then you also have women that are successful in making money, and then they fear that men are gonna find them intimidating or they don't want-

    7. JSJay Shetty27:43

       Which is not their fault either, which is-

    8. LULogan Ury27:44

       Yeah

    9. JSJay Shetty27:45

       ... yeah.

    10. LULogan Ury27:45

        And so I j- I feel like we're just kind of in that messy middle where, like, there w- was the way things were for a long time, and, like, for most of history, like, men have had all the economic power, all the earning power. And then for a bunch of things that have changed, let's say in the last 50 years with feminism and other things that have progressed, you now have brand-new rules, and I think people just haven't figured it out. But what makes me sad about it is it just leads to a lot of misconnections.

    11. JSJay Shetty28:12

        Yeah. The, the picture you just painted feels very true to me that we had these very clear structures that I don't think were healthy or good in any way, but they were clear. And what's happened now is we've moved into the age of nuance, and because our brains are not designed to deal with nuance as well, we kind of don't know how to navigate those things. And I would honestly say, and, um, maybe you'd say the same about you and your partner, I would say that my wife and I kinda toggle a lot of nuance for our relationship to work. We don't really have clear... W- we have some very clear roles and some very not clear roles. We have some parts of our relationship that are totally different to what we both imagined our life would be. We live across cities. We travel a lot. We spend a lot of time together and then don't, don't see each other for time. So there's so many nuances that we, we can't stay tied to our gender roles to make the relationship successful because that would just make us weaker, and it's almost like we've gotta rise above those, but the new rules haven't been set yet, and we don't know what they are.

    12. LULogan Ury29:12

        I definitely agree, and I would say I have the same thing in my marriage. So I do 100% of the laundry. My husband does 100% of the garbage. That's because I like doing laundry. It doesn't bother me, and he doesn't wanna do it. But in other ways, we kind of mix those gender roles up. So, like, he's 100% in charge of, like, our food, our groceries, feeding our daughter. Like, people ask me what she eats. I'm like, "I don't know. That's his department." And so I agree that there's a lot of nuance.I think that just pulling back and kind of zooming out, people are struggling right now because there are way fewer rules. Like, if you went 200 years ago, what were my ancestors doing? Well, I'm Jewish, so they would've known what to wear. They would've spent their days praying or studying the Torah or knowing exactly what they could and couldn't eat. S- a matchmaker would figure out who to marry. There were just so many more rules that told you who you were, and now we've broken open a lot of those rules, and I think people are really struggling with knowing what to do, and in some ways they're craving rules. And so I don't think that where society should go, or certainly where I want it to go, is going back to traditional gender roles. I'm just saying-

    13. JSJay Shetty30:20

        Definitely not, yeah

    14. LULogan Ury30:21

        ... yeah, and I, I don't want that at all. But I'm just acknowledging that I think without rules, people are struggling.

    15. JSJay Shetty30:26

        Yeah.

    16. LULogan Ury30:26

        And you can even see this in the rise of certain aspects of the manosphere or, you know, Catholicism is having a moment where I think people really feel like, "I just want someone to tell me what to do, because when it's up to me, I don't think I'm necessarily making great decisions."

    17. JSJay Shetty30:42

        And that's hard because I think we all know enough people who followed the perfect trajectory their life would've, should've gone in-

    18. LULogan Ury30:50

        Mm-hmm

    19. JSJay Shetty30:50

        ... and not been happy when it was decided by others. And almost agency and awareness are just such superpowers and privileges that, that we all get to decide who you spend your life with and what city you live in and what you do for work, that I almost wanna, you know, help people feel empowered that those are beautiful things to decide, and you don't wanna outsource them. So let's go through my results, and then you can tell me how they can improve-

    20. LULogan Ury31:16

        Okay [laughs]

    21. JSJay Shetty31:17

        ... and what to do with them. So just to caveat again, I answered this as who I was when I was dating, and I answered this as friends of mine who are dating right now.

    22. LULogan Ury31:26

        Great.

    23. JSJay Shetty31:26

        Because that was my best way of doing it. So it says, "Thanks for taking my Three Dating Tendencies Quiz," which everyone can take as well. We'll put the link in the, uh, on the screen right now and in the comments. Uh, "You scored equally high on the Hesitator and the Maximizer tendencies."

    24. LULogan Ury31:41

        Yeah, so this is interesting. So sometimes people get both, but if you have the Hesitator tendency, that usually overrides it because it means that for these other reasons you're not dating at all. And so I imagine that maybe the Maximizer is who you were when you were dating, and maybe the Hesitator is your friends who aren't dating right now.

    25. JSJay Shetty31:59

        That sounds, that sounds very accurate, yeah.

    26. LULogan Ury32:01

        Yeah.

    27. JSJay Shetty32:01

        If, if anything, I had a bit of the Romanticizer in me, too, I guess.

    28. LULogan Ury32:03

        I could also see that. I wasn't-

    29. JSJay Shetty32:05

        I'm super romantic

    30. LULogan Ury32:06

        ... uh, we're still getting to know each other.
16. 36:53 – 43:26

    What Actually Predicts Long-Term Relationship Success?

    1. JSJay Shetty36:53

       on just briefly on the top priorities you mentioned, this idea. Sometimes when I hear people's top priorities, my number one reaction is, "That doesn't make them a good partner."

    2. LULogan Ury37:03

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JSJay Shetty37:04

       So for example, even the three you mentioned is what people may say, and I know they weren't things that you said or we were coming up with a list. But when I think about, like, someone being of the same faith, it's helpful, but I know lots of people in my faith that I would never have married. And so the point is that doesn't make them better at being in a relationship.

    4. LULogan Ury37:23

       Yeah.

    5. JSJay Shetty37:23

       It just gives us some common ground. Or like even like liking animals or whatever it may be.

    6. LULogan Ury37:27

       [laughs]

    7. JSJay Shetty37:28

       And, and, and I know those were just scattergun things.

    8. LULogan Ury37:30

       Off the top of my head, yeah.

    9. JSJay Shetty37:30

       Yeah, you were just throwing things out. But, but I hear things like that where it's like, "I really wanna find some- Like, I don't wanna marry a doctor." And I'm like, "What?" Like, how is that even a category? Because unless you're really clear about the fact I don't want someone to have late nights and busy schedule, if that's the reason. Um, but if it's a personality type attached to that career, I'm like, how do you even know that? Like, people are so multifaceted. It's not possible that every doctor in the world is X or every... You know? So I, so I guess my point is sometimes I worry with people's top priority list because if your top priority list doesn't make someone a better partner and better at relationships, it doesn't actually matter.

    10. LULogan Ury38:07

        I'll share the research on what does and doesn't matter for long-term relationship success. So the doesn't matter one are things that people think matter but matter less than people think they do. So the first one is looks. Of course you wanna be attracted to your partner, of course you wanna have that chemistry with them. But what we know is that over time your feelings towards someone adapt. So you're really attracted to them in the beginning, but over time you sort of get used to how they look, and this happens in many parts of life. There's this idea of adaptation. It's why a year after winning the lottery, many people's happiness levels revert to what they were before they won the lottery. We sort of get used to what's around us. And that's also true for the second one, which is money. Yes, money makes things easier. Money can get rid of some problems in relationships and buy you some time back. But I think when people focus too much on money, they really miss out on the fact that it's not correlated with long-term relationship success. Other things that people mistakenly look for include having really similar personalities. Well, I know that two of me in a relationship would be way too much.

    11. JSJay Shetty39:10

        Me too.

    12. LULogan Ury39:11

        And two of my husband in a relationship might be too little. And so it's actually great to find someone not who's the same as you, but someone who balances you. And the same thing is true with people who look for the same hobbies. Yes, maybe if you both love wine, that's great, but if you love wine and your partner doesn't, you can go have fun drinking wine with someone else as long as your partner doesn't judge you for it. Now let's talk about the things that matter more than people think they do. So the first one is kindness, and I think that this is just completely underestimated. And part of it is because it's not that easy on a dating app or just online to see someone's kindness. And so when you're out on a date with them, I want you to look for things like how they treat the waitstaff, how they treat people that they don't need anything from, even how they treat you. The second one is emotional stability, and this is really about someone who can get through a relationship and not react, that they can actually take a beat, see what the situation is, and really respond rather than react. And this is correlated with great relationships. And then some of the other ones are a growth mindset, something that I know you talk about on the show. And so someone who when they're met with a challenge, they can say, "Okay, well, I don't have that skill, but I'll create that skill," versus somebody with a fixed mindset who says, you know, "You're born with the skills you have," and like, "I'll never become good at that because I'm not good at that now." And then the ability to fight well together. So people think, "Oh, I wanna find someone who I don't fight with at all." It's like, no, fights are inevitable. And there's research from the Gottmans that says that 69% of the fights you have are perpetual. That means you're gonna constantly fight about it for your whole relationship. Like, I'm an early bird and my husband is more of a late bird, and like, we always disagree about time and when we get to the airport. And so it's about fighting well, it's not about not fighting. And then the final one, which has become super important to me and is part of my questions of the Post Date Eight that we'll talk about, is what side of you that person brings out. And this is really crucial because so often we date someone for their resume, their bio data. We say, "He has all the qualities my mom told me to look for. He went to the right schools. He has the right job." But if when you show up he makes you feel anxious or insecure or less than, or he doesn't laugh at your jokes, which makes you think, "Oh, am I not as funny as I thought I was?" Pay attention to that. That is your body telling you that you don't feel comfortable with this person and they're not bringing out the side of you who you wanna be. Because whoever you marry, you're going to be the side of yourself that they bring out. And so, so much of what I try to do is to help people tune into their nervous system and to how they feel on the date and after the date, because who cares about their resume? Who cares about their job? Do you like who you are around them?

    13. JSJay Shetty42:03

        Yeah. I love that you broke that down from a data perspective and it totally matches with what my intuition's been saying for so long. Because everything you mentioned in the second category are completely about how someone is in a relationship-

    14. LULogan Ury42:15

        Yeah

    15. JSJay Shetty42:16

        ... versus how someone is anywhere else in their life, which just doesn't correlate. And I think so many people get into relationships because of all of the first scriptAnd we don't even think about the second until you're deep into it, engaged, married, and then you go, "Wait a minute, like this person isn't kind." Like one of my favorite things about my wife is that she doesn't judge me.

    16. LULogan Ury42:37

        Mm.

    17. JSJay Shetty42:37

        Like that has to be one of the most freeing, most beautiful things is that I can try something, I can do this, I can be bad at this, I can be good at this, and I don't feel judged. And that's like the ultimate experience of kindness where I don't feel like anything I do is judged, whether I work too hard or work too little, whether I made a decision there or here, it's, there's a sense of trust and there's a sense of, uh, commitment, and there's a sense of understanding. At the same time, she's the first one to roast me and call me out-

    18. LULogan Ury43:02

        [laughs]

    19. JSJay Shetty43:03

        ... if she wants to, and she's able to do that, too. And I think that feels so safe, for me at least, in, in what kindness looks like. And I think of that as such an important thing to look for, as you've rightly pointed out from the data, as opposed to like, yeah, do they, are they this tall? Do they hang out at the same places as I do? Do they, you know, whatever else it may be that, that comes up.

17. 43:26 – 46:03

    The Biggest Lie We’re Told About Love

    1. JSJay Shetty43:26

       What do you think is the biggest lie we've been sold in love?

    2. LULogan Ury43:30

       I would have to say that the biggest lie that we've been sold in love is this idea of the spark, and it's sort of become my unofficial tagline or motto, which is fuck the spark.

    3. JSJay Shetty43:39

       [laughs]

    4. LULogan Ury43:39

       And I really do believe this because I think that when people go on dates looking for instant chemistry, they often miss out on great potential partners. So the first myth of the spark is that if you don't feel it at the beginning, you'll never have it, and we know from the research that that's not true. So only 11% of people experience love at first sight with their partner. And so I think because of rom-coms, because of Disney movies, we just sort of expect like, "I'll know it when I see it. He'll walk into the room. We'll catch eyes at the farmers market, and we'll live happily ever after" and that's just not true. Like so many people are with someone who they spent time with. I just saw this funny meme yesterday that was like, "Your coworker isn't hot. You just spend 40 hours a week 10 feet from him"

    5. JSJay Shetty44:24

       [laughs]

    6. LULogan Ury44:24

       And I was like, "You nailed it." That's called the mere exposure effect. Oftentimes the more times you're around someone or the more times you hear a song, the more you like it because you get more familiar with it. And so it's not true that if you don't feel the spark, you never will. The spark often does grow over time.

    7. JSJay Shetty44:41

       Mm-hmm.

    8. LULogan Ury44:42

       And the second myth of the spark is that if you have it, it's a good thing. So sometimes the spark is a good thing and those people get married and have great relationships, but a lot of times it's actually our brains and our bodies giving off alarm bells. Like, "I feel insecure around this person. Does he like me? Does he not like me?" And so we interpret it as chemistry when it's actually anxiety. And having done this research for a long time, I actually find that certain people are just really sparky. They're either really good-looking or sometimes it's that they're really narcissistic and they can really layer on the charm, but that doesn't mean that they're gonna be good long-term partners. It just means that in the moment you felt this connection to them or this attraction to them, but sometimes that spark is actually the sign of anxiety and not knowing where you stand with them.

    9. JSJay Shetty45:30

       Yeah.

    10. LULogan Ury45:31

        And the third thing, the third myth of the spark is that if you have it, then the relationship is viable, and that's also not true. I researched so many couples going into my book and for my other work that started with the spark. They really had it at the beginning, and then they thought this is enough, but they fought all the time. They didn't have shared values. And so yes, the spark can get you pretty far into a relationship, but it's not enough. And so make sure that you don't get into the wrong relationship because you met the, quote-unquote, "right way."

18. 46:03 – 48:28

    The Myth of the Movie-Moment First Meeting

    1. JSJay Shetty46:03

       This is so refreshing to hear because I feel like it just shows the power of cultural conditioning and messaging. It's one of the reasons why, uh, we launched our production company, Perfect St- Strangers, last week because our goal was how do we create entertaining storytelling but that's actually based on reality so we can transform these messages? Because, like you said, we've all grown up watching two people lock eyes and everything make sense or drive off with the happily ever after, and that's what we want. And that's what I wanted, quite frankly. Like, that's what I was looking for when I was a teenager, and I always believed that that's what love was. And now feeling like I'm in love and being in a loving relationship that's evolving, I don't think that's what love's like at all. But it's hard when you're dating, and you're hoping for it, and you're going to all these dates, and you're like, "Well, that was boring. That wasn't fun enough." And then you go and even if you're watching a TV show, a reality show which isn't real, like it's based on an island in the middle of nowhere-

    2. LULogan Ury47:00

       Oh my gosh

    3. JSJay Shetty47:01

       ... and everyone's in bikinis and whatever, and it's like that's not real life. And so how is that gonna... You know, it's the mi- it's the kind of like the, the seeds of ideas that are planted in all of our minds of what healthy love looks like. You actually never see healthy love because it's just happening behind closed doors inside someone's house. They're not broadcasting it.

    4. LULogan Ury47:20

       Right. It's not as fun on a TV show-

    5. JSJay Shetty47:23

       Totally

    6. LULogan Ury47:23

       ... to see, like the day in and day out work that people have to do, and it's the hard conversation that you have to have. It's supporting a partner when they're going through depression or ailing parents. It's just not as cinematic. And like what is cinematic is two people meeting each other, but we've become so obsessed with the we met. And if you meet someone and you're with them for 50 years, the day you met is .005% of your total relationship. And so when you hear that, you're like, "Who cares about the we met?" But people want to say at the dinner party, "Well, I was at the library, and I was returning a book, and he was looking for the same book." And it's like, yes, that is cute and that is romantic, but what's romantic is the fact that you met and you're making a great relationship, not really based on how you met.

    7. JSJay Shetty48:11

       Yeah, yeah. Let's, let's talk about dating apps-

    8. LULogan Ury48:13

       Yeah, yeah

    9. JSJay Shetty48:13

       ... 'cause that is how the majority of people are meeting today-

    10. LULogan Ury48:15

        Great

    11. JSJay Shetty48:15

        ... as far as I know, statistically. Is that true?

    12. LULogan Ury48:18

        Yeah. So since 2017, there's research from Michael Rosenfeld at Stanford that shows that meeting online is the number one way that couples meet.

    13. JSJay Shetty48:25

        Yeah. Right. So, so that's... We have to talk about it.

19. 48:28 – 49:09

    Are Dating Apps Making Us Replaceable?

    1. LULogan Ury48:28

       Let's do it.

    2. JSJay Shetty48:29

       Do dating apps make us feel like we're replaceable?

    3. LULogan Ury48:32

       I think that there is a big sense of the paradox of choice, this idea that when we have so many options, we don't value each one as much, or that we regret our decision. And so I think the best part of dating apps is that it's a lot easier to find someone, especially if you're in what we call a thin market, so daters over 55, LGBTQ+ daters, someone where it might have been hard to go around your community and say, "Well, who's single and who's looking for someone like me?" And so it really does a good job at connecting people who wouldn't have met otherwise. But I do think it introduces this idea of many choices, and people are struggling with that.

20. 49:09 – 52:50

    Start by Fixing Your Dating Profile

    1. JSJay Shetty49:09

       If you're at the opposite end where you're getting zero matches on a dating app, how do you fix that? Where would you suggest people start?

    2. LULogan Ury49:15

       The number one thing to do if you are having trouble getting matches is to fix your profile. And your profile is essentially, like, your billboard, and it's this one chance with limited real estate to share who you are and what you're about. And I can share some of the top tips we've found at Hinge for making a great profile.

    3. JSJay Shetty49:33

       Yeah, please.

    4. LULogan Ury49:34

       So the first thing is that your first photo is so important. Just from watching people go through profiles, I can tell you that what they do is they look at the first picture, they decide if they like you or not, and then based on that, they keep looking. So the first picture really matters a ton. And you want one that's a clear headshot. Uh, doesn't have to be a professional headshot, but I can see what you look like. You're not wearing sunglasses. There's no shadow. There's no filter. Just show me what you look like. That's really where to start, and obviously, it should be flattering. Then you wanna have a variety of photos that show me different parts of yourself. So it's almost like, show me the story of who you are. A mistake that I see people making a lot is, you know, if a guy likes anime, he'll write about that on his Hinge profile, have, have photos from anime, and it's like, got it. You love anime. Hopefully, the next person does, too. But, like, isn't there more to you? Show me more variety. And so you wanna have a f- the first headshot. Then you wanna have a photo of you doing an activity that you love, so it could be cooking, hiking. You know, my friend is a magician. He has a picture of himself on stage. Then you also wanna have a full body shot. Some people don't like that, but it's true. People are looking for what you look like. And then you wanna have one with friends and family. Give me a sense of what it would be like to date you. Show me that you have people that care about you and that you spend time with. And then for your prompts on Hinge, you want a mixture of humor and vulnerability. So, you know, if you love dad jokes, include that. I love on Hinge there's voice prompts where you can record something funny. So my friend has one where the prompt is, "How to pronounce my name," and then he says, "Joe." [laughs]

    5. JSJay Shetty51:13

       Yeah.

    6. LULogan Ury51:13

       And obviously, you know-

    7. JSJay Shetty51:14

       Yeah, yeah, yeah

    8. LULogan Ury51:14

       ... some people write back, and they're like, "What? You think I don't know how to pronounce the name Joe?"

    9. JSJay Shetty51:18

       Yeah, yeah.

    10. LULogan Ury51:18

        And he's like, "Not for me."

    11. JSJay Shetty51:19

        Yeah.

    12. LULogan Ury51:19

        And other people are like, "I love your sense of humor."

    13. JSJay Shetty51:22

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    14. LULogan Ury51:22

        And so I think that's, like, perfect.

    15. JSJay Shetty51:23

        Yeah.

    16. LULogan Ury51:23

        And that actually leads me to a big point around profiles, which is that you don't wanna attract everyone. You don't wanna be chocolate ice cream that everyone likes. You want to be, you know, mint chip. You wanna be something that some people like and some people don't like. And in our research at Hinge, we actually found this where we did an experiment. This wasn't on Hinge. It was, like, with different people, and they knew they were participating, where some people wrote on their profiles really specifically that they were looking for something serious, and other people wrote that they're, you know, just looking for someone kind and adventurous. And what we found was for the people who wanted something serious, they liked those more serious profiles way more, and the people who weren't looking for something serious were turned off by their profiles, and that is exactly what you want. You wanna turn the right people on and the wrong people off. You want fewer options, but you want those options to be really aligned with what you're looking for.

    17. JSJay Shetty52:18

        Yeah, that's great, and you can really then filter out the nonsense. 'Cause if you want something serious, why waste time?

    18. LULogan Ury52:23

        Yes.

    19. JSJay Shetty52:24

        Yeah.

    20. LULogan Ury52:24

        It's not a popularity contest. It's not to get the most likes. It's really be more efficient. Match with the people who want what you want. On Hinge, we have dating intentions where you can say looking for long-term, short-term. Like, just get more specific about what you're looking for, and then the right people are gonna find you. If you're trying to be, you know, the golden retriever that everyone likes, it's just harder to actually find the right match.

    21. JSJay Shetty52:47

        Yeah. I wanna try something with you.

    22. LULogan Ury52:49

        Sure.

21. 52:50 – 1:07:17

    How to Optimize Your Dating Profile

    1. JSJay Shetty52:50

       We have two Hinge dating profiles-

    2. LULogan Ury52:52

       Woo-hoo

    3. JSJay Shetty52:53

       ... where we've got permission from the individuals for their face to be used and their pictures, and I'm gonna pass this to you in a second, and I want you to rate them and help them based on-

    4. LULogan Ury53:03

       Amazing

    5. JSJay Shetty53:03

       ... the skill you just told us, what we can do it right. So there's, there's one guy and one girl. So I'm gonna show you this one.

    6. LULogan Ury53:08

       Wait. I thought this was Will Arnett.

    7. JSJay Shetty53:10

       No. [laughs] That's-

    8. LULogan Ury53:12

       Is it?

    9. JSJay Shetty53:12

       It's not. It's not.

    10. LULogan Ury53:12

        Oh, my God. It looks-

    11. JSJay Shetty53:13

        It's not

    12. LULogan Ury53:13

        ... that's so funny.

    13. JSJay Shetty53:14

        It's not Will Arnett.

    14. LULogan Ury53:15

        Okay. So the first picture, I would say it's not a headshot, but it's, you know, I do get a sense of what this person looks like. There's good lighting. Um, I feel like the body language is a little closed off, just, like, standing in that way, arms, um, in front of you. To me, you know, I'm not Vanessa Van Edwards, but I feel like it kind of gives me a sense of someone who's, like, a little more timid, not as confident. Um, but I think that the first photo is okay, but let's see the rest of the profile.

    15. JSJay Shetty53:43

        Okay. Good. That's helpful.

    16. LULogan Ury53:45

        Okay. A random fact I love is that honey never expires. I just don't love that prompt. It's not one of my favorites because it doesn't show me anything about who you are, and I like to think about, um, your profile not just as what you write but even the prompts you choose to respond to. And I like to think about it as almost like a menu at a restaurant. You should choose a prompt that shows who you are. You should choose a prompt that shows what you're looking for. And so I think a random fact, it's like, okay, maybe that's a good conversation starter where someone can say, "I didn't realize that," but it's just not that revealing. And even being towards the top of the profile, I kind of feel like it's a little bit of a waste of special, special real estate.

    17. JSJay Shetty54:30

        Love how honest you are. This is very useful.

    18. LULogan Ury54:32

        Oh, sure. [laughs]

    19. JSJay Shetty54:32

        This is very helpful.

    20. LULogan Ury54:33

        It never crosses my mind-

    21. JSJay Shetty54:34

        Yeah

    22. LULogan Ury54:34

        ... to not be honest.

    23. JSJay Shetty54:35

        No.

    24. LULogan Ury54:35

        Okay.

    25. JSJay Shetty54:35

        But it's very helpful 'cause I think these are the things that we all trip ourselves up from. We wanna help them find love, so.

    26. LULogan Ury54:39

        For sure. Okay, so this one is interesting. So for work they said entertainment. So one thing I've seen in talking to a lot of people about their profiles is that, or sorry, talking to people who look at profiles, is that when someone's too vague, people often jump to negative assumptions. So I worked with a client who saidAnd this is in the Bay Area. "If a guy says entrepreneur, I assume he's unemployed, and I swipe left." And I was like, "What?" Like, there's just so many ways of being an entrepreneur, and so what I would say is my advice for him is to maybe be a little more specific because people might just assume the wrong thing. And my advice to people viewing this profile or other profiles would be if there's something that gives you a yellow flag, don't just swipe left or say no, actually ask instead of assume. Okay, so this next one, um, wearing the suit, I think what I get from it is that, um, I kinda get the same thing as I do from the first one. Like, he's making a very similar expression. It's kind of shot from a similar angle. He's not really smiling. I feel like it just... It's a cute suit, but I don't get that much more information. Okay, the next one. Oh, th-this guy likes women, right?

    27. JSJay Shetty55:51

        Yes, yes.

    28. LULogan Ury55:51

        Was I making an assumption? [laughs]

    29. JSJay Shetty55:53

        Yes, yes.

    30. LULogan Ury55:53

        Okay, the next one is with him and his friend. I, I like it because I think there's an intimacy there. Um, it looks like he's wearing a cross necklace, which maybe gives me some more information. He's sort of making the same smile with no teeth. Um, I think that one's okay. And then green flags I look for, appreciating sarcasm. I really don't like that one. We know there's a lot of Hinge app cliches, and one of them is the one, "I'm fluent in sarcasm." I think this is similar where it's just like, I don't really learn that much about you. There's not a lot of detail. It kinda just makes you fade into the background. Okay, the next one I really don't like. He's looking away from the camera. I can't really see his face. To me, that picture kind of, like, pushes me away versus draws me in. Sorry I'm being mean to this guy.
22. 1:07:17 – 1:09:15

    Make It Easy for People to Engage with You

    1. JSJay Shetty1:07:17

       I really appreciate what you said about making it easy for men because, I mean, I think about even back when I had to approach someone, it was so much more easy to approach a woman who made it easier for me to approach her, and it would take so much courage to approach someone who gave you no signals whatsoever. And so even for her, if she really wants people to lean in, giving them that opportunity to say, "Let's have a f- you know, cooking competition," or whatever it was, or whatever it may be, I think that invitation for action, that initiation is so important.

    2. LULogan Ury1:07:44

       Right. It's like it's not a test. It's a layup. Like make it easy for the other person to know what to engage you on. And so if you aren't getting the number of matches you want, first thing I would do is make your profile as good as possible, show it to some friends, get some new pictures, say to your closest friend, "Is the person who you see in front of you the same person you see in this profile?" And if not, change it. The second thing I would do is send comments instead of just likes. So this really trains the algorithm to show who you're looking for. Comments are much more likely to lead to a date than just sending a like, and it just shows more effort, right? We're talking about chalant dating, so put more effort in. Hinge actually just launched something within the past few months called convo starters, and it's a way, um, to basically use AI not to write the message for you, but just to kind of spark inspiration, where it's like if it's a girl playing chess, you know, there might be like a little bubble that pops up that says like, "Checkers versus chess."

    3. JSJay Shetty1:08:39

       Mm-hmm.

    4. LULogan Ury1:08:39

       And then you can say, "Oh yeah, that's a good idea. I'm gonna ask her about backgammon."

    5. JSJay Shetty1:08:42

       Mm-hmm.

    6. LULogan Ury1:08:43

       And so it's kind of just like that little coach in your pocket that's telling you, like, if you're stuck on what to say, here are a few ideas, and it has it like for each picture and each prompt.

    7. JSJay Shetty1:08:51

       We hear so many people say that there's no good people on the apps. Well, what are they missing?

    8. LULogan Ury1:08:55

       Yeah, it's so complicated. Like I hear that all the time, and I think there's plenty of good people out there. There's just all these misconnections, and I don't think it's just about apps. I think it's about everyday life. Like I feel like we're just missing each other, and this has become kind of an obsession of mine. Have you heard of the term friction-maxing?

    9. JSJay Shetty1:09:14

       I, I've heard of it.

23. 1:09:15 – 1:11:04

    What Is Friction-Maxing?

    1. JSJay Shetty1:09:15

       Please explain it. What is friction-maxing?

    2. LULogan Ury1:09:17

       So this is something I've been thinking about for a few years, but there was this viral article about friction-maxing, and I was like, "Yes!" Like that's the word that I've been looking for. And so friction-maxing is choosing to put more inconvenience into your life in order to have more human connection. Go to the grocery store instead of ordering Instacart. You know, take the subway where you're gonna interact with people over taking an Uber. And it's like these tech companies have kind of convinced us your life should be as convenient as possible, and you will be happy when you reduce friction, and I think that's a lie. Like think about the definition of friction. It's when two things rub against each other. And if you think about that in the real world, it's like rubbing shoulders with someone in line at an event or just meeting new people. And so I think that we've become obsessed with self-care and boundaries and like those things are great, but I think it's a little out of control, where self-care often is selfish. "This is my schedule. We can't hang out unless you can definitely do it on my schedule," or like, "I go to bed at eight PM every night, so I could never go on a date with you in the evening." It's like in kind of protecting yourself from discomfort, you're really missing the chance to interact with people. And like I'm just seeing this all the time, and I see it with myself. Like there just is that urge. What's the most convenient option? And I'm really trying to fight it in my own life, adding more friction in, being more around other people, fighting the isolation. And so I think that when you approach someone in public, it is riskier, and you might get rejected, but you're creating friction that might lead to a great result. And so I think all of us have to increase our ability to withstand discomfort because it's gonna lead to great stories and so many more relationships.

    3. JSJay Shetty1:10:59

       Yeah. Well said. Well said. Can you... You explained friction-maxing, chalant dating. Can

24. 1:11:04 – 1:15:58

    “Rose Jail” on Hinge

    1. JSJay Shetty1:11:04

       you explain what rose jail is?

    2. LULogan Ury1:11:06

       Yeah. [laughs]

    3. JSJay Shetty1:11:06

       And why people are experiencing it?

    4. LULogan Ury1:11:07

       Not my favorite topic.

    5. JSJay Shetty1:11:08

       Yeah.

    6. LULogan Ury1:11:09

       Yes.

    7. JSJay Shetty1:11:09

       Yeah.

    8. LULogan Ury1:11:09

       Yeah, so rose jail is something that, you know, I don't hear about it as n- as much now, but a few years ago where people feel like, "Oh, the people that I wanna see on Hinge, I have to, um, buy money or spend money on a rose to get them." And so what I would say is like the rose system does work and that we see that people that send a rose are two times as likely as other people to actually get to a date.

    9. JSJay Shetty1:11:32

       Yeah, that sounds like good odds. I mean, a- and it's, uh... What, what's interesting about the friction-maxing, going back to that, it's almost just helpful to be out there and bumping into people and meeting people because you actually become better at conversation. You get-- find new things to talk about. You have more experiences. We have a loneliness epidemic in the world anyway, and so the ability to justBe in public places and bump into people and, and other things. Like, I mean, I'm pickleball's biggest promoter, but it's-- I have made so many casual pickleball friends just by playing pickleball at public courts. And it's just one of those things where you just start a game up with someone, and you get to know each other, and next thing you know, you're hanging out. And I feel the same is true... I was at a, uh, a, my friend runs a really cool acting class, and he asked me to come check it out, and I went a couple of weeks ago just to observe. And everyone in his class, like, you could tell they just had this amazing community.

    10. LULogan Ury1:12:23

        Yeah.

    11. JSJay Shetty1:12:23

        I was like, "I wish everyone came to this class," because there was such a great energy there, and people were encouraging each other. They were kind. And I was like, "You could easily find someone here to match with." I was just thinking about all the possibilities of places where there is community built around something singular, almost like we know that just, you know, 30 to 40 years ago, people would meet at their church or place of worship. People would meet in the building they lived in. Like, you needed almost this singular place where you congregated for a particular need, which is how we met people, whether it was a Sunday roast or a family dinner and family friends were invited. And it almost feels like we've lost that, and I think that's what you're encouraging people to do.

    12. LULogan Ury1:13:01

        Absolutely. And there was this quote going around last year, "The cost of community is inconvenience." And I think people are just so obsessed with making their lives frictionless and not ever inconveniencing themselves that they forget that, yeah, it's not that fun to help your friend move, but that's part of being a friend and being in a community. And I would say in my life, I've sort of taken this to the extreme. So during the pandemic, my husband and I moved into this commune with 20 of our friends. And so we each had our own little apartment, but you have 20 people living together and having dinner together every night, and those were some of the happiest years of my life. And yes, sometimes there was friction. You know, it was 2020. We had to have these, like, long, boring, antagonistic meetings about COVID protocol, but that was the price that you pay to live with your friends. And I think that we constantly choose what we think is best for ourselves, but what we really do is make things convenient, and then we are more isolated. And, like, when you're at home behind your screen, you're not out there meeting new people. And it's not just about meeting the guy you're gonna marry. It's about meeting the girl who has a brother, who has a friend, who you're gonna meet if you all go to that festival together. And I think that, like, if you tie a lot of the strings together that we're talking about, like, there's a loneliness epidemic. There's men and women who are thinking that the other person wants something different from them. And, like, the more times that you put yourself in places where you're gonna meet someone, the more friction you're creating, the more opportunity for connection that you're taking. And I hope that that's a big message that people take away from this conversation is be a chalant dater. Put your effort out there. Be willing to get rejected. Friction max. Put yourself in more situations where it's not convenient, but you're gonna meet more people. And, like, isn't that what life is really about?

    13. JSJay Shetty1:14:47

        Totally. It's so true. And, and I think that's-- it feels like the ethos of this whole conversation, which is, like, seek discomfort-

    14. LULogan Ury1:14:53

        Mm-hmm

    15. JSJay Shetty1:14:54

        ... become more resilient, live with the challenge that there is a high rejection proportion of just finding the one. And the one thing I like to remind people also is that if everyone liked you and you liked everyone, it wouldn't be that valuable of a discovery. Like, the beautiful thing about love is that you found someone who wants to work with you on it, and you wanna work with them on it, and how special is that? And if you felt that with every person you went out on a date with or if every person responded to you positively, well, then we wouldn't value love as much. The reason why we value love and long-term relationships is because they're rare, because they're special. They're hard. They're not, they're not something that you feel freely available with everyone.

    16. LULogan Ury1:15:32

        Absolutely. And I, I do this work, and my mission is really to help people find love because I think it's one of the most important things that you can experience. And who you choose as your partner, that's your board of directors. That's the person advising you, right? Like, you become the average of the people that you're around, and your partner is going to be one of those people. And so I think that it really deserves a lot of time, a lot of effort, and a lot of care, and that the more that we can

25. 1:15:58 – 1:16:03

    Choosing a Partner Takes Real Effort

    1. LULogan Ury1:15:58

       put that effort in and not be afraid of it, the more great relationships we're gonna have.

26. 1:16:03 – 1:17:11

    Do You Believe in “Right Person, Wrong Time?”

    1. JSJay Shetty1:16:03

       Do you believe in right person, wrong time?

    2. LULogan Ury1:16:05

       That's funny that you ask that because I've been thinking about it lately. So, you know, this is kind of a thing that people say, like, timing is everything, and I used to not believe that. I used to believe if it was the right match, the person would make it the right time, and my thinking on that has changed, where if you're dating someone but they're in medical school and they really don't have time for you, I don't think it's gonna work out. So I would say the right person during the wrong time is not the right person.

    3. JSJay Shetty1:16:31

       Got it. Yeah, it's a, it's a question I love to ask people because I feel like these are those, maybe the romanticizers who have this, like, way of thinking about something, and it keeps them trapped.

    4. LULogan Ury1:16:42

       Yeah, like I was just asked this question the other week where this person was like, "Oh, I was dating this guy, but he recently got out of a relationship, and then we were fighting a lot, and I ended things. Do you think it was timing?" And I was like, "No, I think you were fighting a lot because you weren't a good fit, not because of timing." And sometimes we can get really obsessed with timing, but I think that, like, you know, in behavioral science, so much is the environment. And it's like if the environment that you're dating in is that they're not ready, well, that means that you shouldn't be in a relationship.

27. 1:17:11 – 1:18:47

    Are People Giving Up Too Quickly on Love?

    1. JSJay Shetty1:17:11

       Yeah. Do, do people quit relationships too fast now?

    2. LULogan Ury1:17:14

       Yes. I think that people give up too easily. This is what we were talking about. So remember, there's the work-it-out mindset, the idea that of course relationships take effort. And so when you hit that inevitable rough spot, don't say, "Well, we disagreed on this, so instead of having a hard conversation, I'll just end it." And that really goes back to the ethos of what we've been talking about. Like, understand that relationships require inconvenience, discomfort, friction. And so when you have that first fight, say, "Wow, I, I guess you feel really strongly about that, and let's have a conversation about it," versus being like, "This is too much work." And so I would say, yes, dating apps provide more options to meet more people, but don't treat people like they're disposable because that's just a recipe for sort of burning and churning relationships, and really understand that each relationship is an opportunity to invest in someone.

    3. JSJay Shetty1:18:05

       Yeah. And it goes back to what you were saying earlier about moving towards the work-it-out mindset, as you mentioned. Like, just-It's almost like you're getting to practice what a real relationship looks like, and that first difficult moment is like this brilliant moment to actually realize what skills you do have, what skills you don't have, what attitude that person's willing to come at. I was wondering, I, I love that you have such-- I mean, your advice, Logan, is so brilliant and, and it's no surprise with the incredible work that you do online and offline.

    4. LULogan Ury1:18:34

       Thank you.

    5. JSJay Shetty1:18:34

       But I, yeah, I really mean it. It's, it's, it's so great and, and it feels so real and actionable and genuine to it's not playing a game. It's not some manipulation strategy. It's not, you know, it's, it's really authentic.

28. 1:18:47 – 1:22:29

    Post Date Eight

    1. JSJay Shetty1:18:47

       When it comes to evaluating a great date, because, as you said, we usually get distracted by the spark. If the spark is not there, we're probably not gonna go out on another date. And if we force ourself to go on a second date and there's no spark again, we're probably not gonna go on a third. I think we have very limited tools to evaluate a successful date, but I know you have an approach that is far more comprehensive. What should people be asking after they go on a date with someone?

    2. LULogan Ury1:19:12

       So I have this tool called the Post Date Eight, and these are eight questions to ask yourself after a date. And the research behind this is really based on gratitude journals. So if every day you have to write down at the end of the day five things you are grateful for, it changes how you live your life, because throughout the day, you're looking for those small things and you're appreciating them, right? Like, I made the bus when I almost could have missed it, or it was really sunny and I got a table outside. So it trains your brain to look for the positives, and the same thing is true with this Post Date Eight. So these are eight questions that you ask yourself after a date, and they are things like, "What side of me did the person bring out? How did I feel in my body around them? Did I feel relaxed or did I feel uptight? Did I feel heard? Did I feel attractive? Did they make me laugh?" And what's really important is that these questions are not, "Are they good enough for me? Is he hot enough? Does she have an impressive enough job?" They're, "Who am I around them?" And it goes back to what we said about dating for the dynamic versus dating for the resume. And so there's this idea of dating experientially, what is the experience of being around you, versus dating evaluatively, dating to see if you're good enough for me.

    3. JSJay Shetty1:20:29

       Mm. Yeah, it's, it's almost like you're either testing them or you're getting carried away, and what you're saying is that the evaluation eight questions allow you to check in on yourself and see, how do I feel? Like, how is this going, and, and how is this for real as what it feels like being together rather than what it feels like being with their resume, being with their data, being with... You know. And so yeah, we're either testing them, like are they good enough for me, are they not? Are they good enough for my friends? Or sometimes we're just so lost in our own world of like, will they like me? Do they like me? Right? We're in that opposite space of am I good enough to hesitate her.

    4. LULogan Ury1:21:05

       It's not, did I find them attractive? It's, did I feel attractive around them? I feel like that's such a big shift for people. And going back to the three myths of the spark, so many times people miss an amazing person because they're not sparky. And so my antidote to the spark is to look for the slow burn, and the slow burn is the person who may not be initially as charismatic or sparky, but they would be an amazing partner long term. I think this is one of the greatest contributions I've had to the discourse, is I get so many emails from people that are like, "I followed what you said. I looked for the slow burn. I'm engaged with slow burn and I'm so happy. This is the kind of guy I would have overlooked." And a way to use the Post Date Eight is to do it after each date and to see over time do I like them more and more. Because the sparky people often burn out quickly, and maybe after the third date you might say, "Oh, you know, like, it turns out he's, like, a little narcissistic," or, "We don't really have that much to talk about." Whereas the slow burn person, each time you date them, you are more curious about them. You like them more and more. So it's a, it's a journaling exercise really to track how you feel with different people and if your interest in them grows or decreases over time.

    5. JSJay Shetty1:22:17

       Yeah. I love that approach. I really hope-- I really, really hope everyone who's listening and watching, uh, applies it. I think it would change everything for them. Uh, Logan, I wanna go a bit more philosophical with you, a bit more, like, higher, higher level

29. 1:22:29 – 1:24:04

    How Do You Define Love?

    1. JSJay Shetty1:22:29

       of, like, how do you define love?

    2. LULogan Ury1:22:32

       When you asked the question, I got a really strong internal feeling where I just heard the word acceptance, and I think it reminds me of what you said about you and Roddy where she really accepts you for who you are and you don't feel judgment. And when I think about the people that love me, I think about my parents, my sister, some of my best friends, my husband, my daughter, where it's like you're not under the microscope. They're not deciding, like, do I wanna see you again or not? They're really just like, "I love you and all your messiness." And I remember one time I was talking to my friend Kristen, and I was like, "You know, sometimes I'm a little avoidant when I have a hard situation." She's like, "Duh, we all know that." And, like, I got embarrassed, but I was like, what she's saying is, like, "I see you in your shadow and your light, and I love you for all of those things." And I think that acceptance and belonging is really what makes us feel safe, and I think one of the reasons why I've had the career I've had, which I feel really proud of, is because my husband is such a rock and I feel so much acceptance from him. His love is really unconditional. And, like, when you have this foundation of unconditional love, like, you can go fly high and, like, take a lot of risk and risk rejection because, like, you come home to this really beautiful foundation of acceptance. And when people wanna find love, like, I want that for them so badly because I also want them to tuck into their bed at night and, like, have that person that is unconditionally loving them, and that's really my wish for so many people.

    3. JSJay Shetty1:24:01

       That's a beautiful answer. I love that. Uh, is

30. 1:24:04 – 1:25:15

    Is Love Alone Enough?

    1. JSJay Shetty1:24:04

       love enough?

    2. LULogan Ury1:24:05

       You need love, but it's not enough. So it's required, but it's not the only thing. And what you also need is sustained effort.And, you know, we're at the age where a lot of our friends are having young kids, right? And I get so many questions from clients of mine, close friends of mine, et cetera, where they're like, "I just don't feel as connected." And one of my mentors, Eli Finkel, he has this great book called The All or Nothing Marriage, and he talks about different times in a relationship, and he has this great word, recalibration. So sometimes if someone's dealing with a hard situation at work or a difficult moment with their parents or, you know, having young kids at home, you have to recalibrate your expectations. Like, maybe it's not gonna be the most fun year of your marriage. Maybe you're gonna have sex a little less often. Maybe you're gonna fight a little bit more. So recalibrate your expectations in those hard moments instead of, like, exiting. Just understand that it's gonna be a slightly bumpier ride. And so I think that true relationships last through some really hard years, sometimes some infidelity, and that love is enough to get you into a relationship, but it's not enough to keep you in it.

    3. JSJay Shetty1:25:13

       I love the recalibration, and,

31. 1:25:15 – 1:26:40

    Falling in Love vs. Being in Love

    1. JSJay Shetty1:25:15

       and it's so fascinating how we think things should stay the same through all this change, right? Most, most of us want our relationship to stay exactly the same, no matter how much change we're going through, whether that's moving country, changing job, having a child. All these major transitions in life which naturally require us to reestablish what our connection pattern is, what our-- the amount of time we spend together is, all of that, and all of a sudden we just throw it out the window and say, "Well, if you love me, it should be this way. It should be this way always and forever." But how would that even be possible? It's fascinating that we-- It's, it's perplexing that we're that way, but it's fascinating too that we think things staying the same is a sign of love.

    2. LULogan Ury1:25:59

       Absolutely, and there's a great behavioral science principle for this, uh, this transitive fallacy where we sort of think, um, the way that it feels when something changes is the way it'll feel forever. So we think that falling in love is the same as being in love, but it's totally different. It goes back to adaptation, right? We adapt to the things around us. So winning the lottery will feel good for a certain period of time, and then, you know, being wealthy is a different state. And so if you're in a relationship and it doesn't feel as intense as when you first fell in love, that's the natural cycle, and if you just keep being a person that breaks up and searches for that falling in love again, you're sort of missing the bigger picture.

    3. JSJay Shetty1:26:37

       Mm-hmm. Uh, last one of these.

32. 1:26:40 – 1:28:09

    What Truly Makes a Great Partner?

    1. JSJay Shetty1:26:40

       Uh, what makes a good partner?

    2. LULogan Ury1:26:42

       I think there's so many things that go into being a good partner. So we just talked about love is being acceptance, so I think accepting your partner. Sometimes people are like, "Do you think people change?" And I think my answer is sometimes they change, sometimes they don't, but you can't be with someone for their potential because what if they never change? You need to accept them for who they are now, and they probably will change, but that's not a guarantee. I think communication, it's a cliché, but it's true. There's kind of this joke that, like, the answer to every advice column is always, like, have a conversation.

    3. JSJay Shetty1:27:11

       [laughs]

    4. LULogan Ury1:27:12

       Like, "What should I do with my neighbor who plays music?" It's like, have a conversation. "What should I with my mother-in-law? She shows up without being invited." Have a conversation. It's like, yes, like, conversations are what keep relationships alive.

    5. JSJay Shetty1:27:25

       Yeah. Wow.

    6. LULogan Ury1:27:25

       And going back to Chalant Dating, I saw this stat that was like ninety percent of women, like, what they really want is not to go to an expensive restaurant and not how much money the guy spent on the date, but really how invested in the conversation is he. And so I think communication is a huge one. And then I think the growth mindset, that really encompasses a lot. It's like, life changes, you'll change. Do we feel like we're a team and we're on the same side and we're working together towards the life we want? Or are we adversaries that are on opposite sides of the pickleball court, and when you win, uh, when you win and you go away with your friends, I lose because I have to stay home with our kid, and instead it's like we over me.

    7. JSJay Shetty1:28:08

       How do you know

33. 1:28:09 – 1:30:18

    Are Your Standards Too High?

    1. JSJay Shetty1:28:09

       if you're asking for too much?

    2. LULogan Ury1:28:10

       There's a big difference between settling, where you feel like you have these deal breakers that are really important to you and you're not getting them met, and satisficing, which is understanding that you should double down on the things that matter and compromise on the rest. So let me get a little bit more specific, and I actually wanted to answer this before when you were talking about, you know, the things that matter and don't matter. So as people get older, especially, and I, you know, I have this Netflix show, The Later Daters, and it's daters over fifty-five. And so, like, I have just seen this so much. The older you get, the more you add to your list because you're like, "I've waited this long. She better be perfect." And so what happens is we confuse pet peeves for deal breakers. So a pet peeve would be something like, "I'll date anyone except a mouth breather." It's like, come on, like, mouth breathing? That's not correlated with relationship satisfaction or not satisfaction. It's like something that maybe annoys you, but it's not that big of a deal or, like, socks with sandals. So it's like-

    3. JSJay Shetty1:29:08

       Or even being six foot tall or whatever.

    4. LULogan Ury1:29:09

       Oh my gosh.

    5. JSJay Shetty1:29:10

       Yeah, it's, uh-

    6. LULogan Ury1:29:11

       Yeah, I could go on a whole tangent about height, which is essentially, like, many women filter out men who are six feet. You know, they want a man who's six feet or taller, but eighty-six percent of adult men in the US are under six feet.

    7. JSJay Shetty1:29:23

       Wow.

    8. LULogan Ury1:29:24

       So you're excluding eighty-six percent of possible matches over something that does not matter for long-term relationship satisfaction. And so, you know, going back to pet peeves and deal breakers, the first thing I would do is make a list of what you think your pet peeves are, what you think your deal breakers are, what your must-haves are, and then truly think, "If I didn't have this thing, would it matter long term?" So, "Oh, I need a guy with a good sense of style." It's like, do you? Can you take him shopping? Like, who cares? Versus something like, "I have asthma and I need a non-smoker." Going back to religion. You know, for you, maybe it wasn't just the religion piece, but for some people, if they're religious or they want to raise their kids in that faith, it is a deal breaker. So kind of go through each one and try to move things to the p- the pet peeves category. And then when you're datingGo really hard on those deal breakers and be true to yourself, but be more flexible on the pet peeves because they don't matter.

    9. JSJay Shetty1:30:17

       Mm.

34. 1:30:18 – 1:34:12

    Understanding the “Ick”

    1. JSJay Shetty1:30:18

       Yeah, those icks.

    2. LULogan Ury1:30:19

       I know.

    3. JSJay Shetty1:30:20

       I don't- Have you ever seen the guy on TikTok called Guy With the List?

    4. LULogan Ury1:30:23

       No.

    5. JSJay Shetty1:30:23

       Okay, so check it out after.

    6. LULogan Ury1:30:24

       I will.

    7. JSJay Shetty1:30:25

       It's ... I- I have no affiliation, but I'm such a fan. So what he does is he finds videos of women on the internet that say they have an ick or they have something they don't like about men, and then he adds it to his list to not do that thing.

    8. LULogan Ury1:30:38

       Oh.

    9. JSJay Shetty1:30:38

       So it's-

    10. LULogan Ury1:30:39

        That's so funny

    11. JSJay Shetty1:30:40

        ... it's genius. And so I'll, I'll pull one up.

    12. LULogan Ury1:30:41

        Well, I feel like our friend Jared Fried is kinda like the king of the ick.

    13. JSJay Shetty1:30:44

        Is he? In what sense? Go on, I love Jared.

    14. LULogan Ury1:30:46

        Oh, he has so many viral videos where he's like, "I ask audience members why they rejected a guy."

    15. JSJay Shetty1:30:51

        Yeah.

    16. LULogan Ury1:30:52

        "And they were like, 'I really liked him. I was gonna go home with him, but then he went to pay the bill and I heard chhhh.'"

    17. JSJay Shetty1:30:57

        Yeah, this is [laughs]

    18. LULogan Ury1:30:58

        And it's the sound of somebody opening a Velcro wallet.

    19. JSJay Shetty1:31:02

        That's so great. Yeah, that's exactly it. These are, some of these are even worse. I haven't, I haven't checked these ones.

    20. LULogan Ury1:31:06

        Okay, I wanna hear it.

    21. LULogan Ury1:31:06

        "I don't mean to be an alarmist, but it's important to stay vigilant. A few weeks ago, I met this guy-"

    22. JSJay Shetty1:31:10

        [laughs]

    23. LULogan Ury1:31:10

        "... out at a bar. He seemed normal. His friend seemed normal, so I went home with him. The next day I was leaving and he said, 'Oh, I'll walk you to the train station. I'm leaving as well.' And out of nowhere, he just nonchalantly grabs his rollerblades and a speaker."

    24. LULogan Ury1:31:26

        [laughs]

    25. LULogan Ury1:31:27

        "And I was like, 'Oh.'"

    26. JSJay Shetty1:31:29

        So then what he does is he takes it-

    27. LULogan Ury1:31:31

        Oh, my God

    28. JSJay Shetty1:31:31

        ... and he adds it to his list.

    29. LULogan Ury1:31:32

        That's such a good bit.

    30. JSJay Shetty1:31:34

        And so his list has everything from don't wear goggles-
35. 1:34:12 – 1:39:25

    This or That: Love Edition

    1. JSJay Shetty1:34:12

       first. Uh, so This or That. Someone who loves you more or someone you love more?

    2. LULogan Ury1:34:18

       I think I want to love them a lot, but it's okay if they love me a little bit more than I love them.

    3. JSJay Shetty1:34:23

       [laughs] Okay. Uh, marry your best friend or someone you feel wild passion for?

    4. LULogan Ury1:34:29

       Ideal- Like, for a lot of these I'm like, ideally both, but it's like I think the best friendship is gonna last longer. But, like, you need to wanna have sex with them. So I would say best friend but wanna have sex. And, like, most people don't marry the person they had the best sex with in their life. Like, the most passionate relationship is sometimes because there's a little bit of, like, will she or won't she? And I would say if you're looking for, like, long-term partnership, like, best friend is, like, a safer bet.

    5. JSJay Shetty1:34:55

       Yep. Good answers. All right. Stay in a good enough relationship or risk being single for a long time waiting for great?

    6. LULogan Ury1:35:02

       Sorry to be so like "but", I think it matters who you are. If you're a person who often leaves relationships, what I call a ditcher, because you're a maximizer and you're looking for something better, then I would say, like, invest in that relationship and make it great. But if you're a person that really settles and, like, always kind of accepts the crumbs, then see what it's like to be single and really go after the whole cookie.

    7. JSJay Shetty1:35:23

       Mm-hmm. You, y- your answers are great, so yeah, I'm happy with what you're doing. Uh, shared life goals but mismatched love languages or perfect love languages match but different visions for the future?

    8. LULogan Ury1:35:34

       I think love languages are kinda ridiculous and overrated. Like, they help people, and I think they're useful as something to point to. But, like, they're not scientifically backed. Like, let's just talk about what love languages are because, like, they've kinda become so pervasive in our culture with people wearing shirts that say, like, "Taco is my love language." So the love language is your preferred way of receiving love, and so it kinda helps you say to your husband, "I don't care about gifts. I care about quality time." Like, for me-For Christmas, my husband said, like, "Make a list of what you want," and I asked him for five conversations that were each two hours. And I know it, like, sounds so crazy, but, like, it d- that's what I wanted. I was like, "I want a conversation about our housing for the future. I want a conversation around my health. I want a conversation around parenting." And, like, maybe it sounds silly and people would be like, "Why did you have to ask for that?" It's like, 'cause we're parents of a young kid and we work a lot and my husband commutes. Like, we don't have two-hour quality time conversations all the time. Like, we don't even have them that often. And so what I wanted was to have that quality time. I didn't want gifts. And so love languages are a helpful way to kinda show what matters to you, but, like, you don't have to have aligned love languages. Like, 100%, like, shared vision for the future matters much more than this thing that is kind of a shortcut to say, like, "This is what makes me feel valued."

    9. JSJay Shetty1:36:54

       I just wanna underline what you just said as well, that I actually think you do have to ask and set aside time for very important conversations, especially when you've been together for a long time. Because your day-to-day becomes your conversation, and it can be great connection and you can be having fun every day, but you almost don't ever sit down and do that phone call conversation that you did when you started dating, or you don't do that three hours dinner when you, when you're with someone. And so I think I fully agree with you on having to outline and ask for specific conversations, especially if it's really important to you and it's not something that you're just willing to also just throw into someone when you both just got back from work, put your baby to bed, and you're both exhausted. It's not possible to go on that Thursday night and say, "Hey, can we just talk about the finances tonight?" Like, that's gonna maybe throw the other person off as well.

    10. LULogan Ury1:37:41

        Yeah. I would have to say, like, that was a great gift, and some of my friends have, like, copied it. They've asked-

    11. JSJay Shetty1:37:46

        I love it

    12. LULogan Ury1:37:46

        ... their partners for that for their birthday. And I'm like, "I think this could be a thing," because it's like, it's awkward to say, "Can we spend 90 minutes talking about my health, and can I, like, talk to you about my Oura Ring and this and that?" But, like, I want that time, and that's what I, as a busy parent, as a mom, like, that's what I was looking for, and I feel like that was so much more enriching to me than, like, you know, some red light mask.

    13. JSJay Shetty1:38:08

        Yeah. Okay, last one of these. Date someone who feels safe but doesn't challenge you, or date someone who challenges you but sometimes triggers you.

    14. LULogan Ury1:38:18

        Hmm. I think you have to feel safe. Like, that is a must-have, because someone should really feel like home. They should feel like that foundation, so you need it. I think trigger, kinda going back to, like, boundaries and self-care, it's just kind of become, like, a little bit overblown in our culture. So I would say, like, investigate that more. What does trigger you mean? Does it mean that, like, sometimes they challenge you, or does it mean, like, that they don't respect you or that they remind you of, like, an abusive relationship you were in? So I would say safety and foundation is, like, a must-have, but then investigate is this healthy discomfort or is this unhealthy discomfort?

    15. JSJay Shetty1:38:52

        Mm-hmm. Logan, you've been amazing to talk to. Uh, I've learned so much. I think our audience is gonna get so much value from this. I'm so excited for everyone to go to loganury.com and actually take the quiz so that they can figure out where they land. I think doing the quiz myself and even breaking it down with you today, and I kept, in the interview, everyone will hear me keep going, "Well, that sounds like Hesitator-

    16. LULogan Ury1:39:13

        Yeah

    17. JSJay Shetty1:39:13

        ... or Maximizer," and it's, it's so usable in everyday life, and I think it's gonna help people really recognize what's blocking them at the root rather than just, "Hey, you're just distracted," or whatever, whatever it may be.

36. 1:39:25 – 1:45:42

    Logan on Final Five

    1. JSJay Shetty1:39:25

       Uh, we end every episode of On Purpose with a Final Five. These questions have to be answered in one word or one sentence maximum. One sentence, most likely. Uh, so Logan Ury, these are your Final Five. The first question is what is the best love advice you've ever heard or received?

    2. LULogan Ury1:39:40

       The best love advice I've ever heard or received is love is a verb.

    3. JSJay Shetty1:39:44

       Yeah, it's a good answer. Agreed. Uh, what is the worst love advice you've ever heard or received?

    4. LULogan Ury1:39:50

       The worst love advice that I've heard, this is really big on Reddit, is when people have very strict rules where it's like, "If he asks this question, never see him again. If he doesn't pay, never see him again." So I think the worst love advice is when you have really strict rules that are not based in, like, the research or science of what actually matters in dating.

    5. JSJay Shetty1:40:11

       That's a great answer. Uh, question number three, is love blind?

    6. LULogan Ury1:40:16

       No.

    7. JSJay Shetty1:40:17

       [laughs] Do you wanna a- you can expand.

    8. LULogan Ury1:40:19

       I mean, I think nine seasons of the show has shown us that love is not blind.

    9. JSJay Shetty1:40:23

       [laughs] That's a great answer. For sure. Uh, question number four, what's something you used to believe was true about love, but now you actually realize it isn't?

    10. LULogan Ury1:40:34

        I think I'll go back to what we talked about with timing, which is I used to believe that love could sort of overcome any timing, and now I believe that timing is a big element of whether or not you're the right fit.

    11. JSJay Shetty1:40:47

        Yeah. Yeah. It's such a... It's weird, isn't it? 'Cause time is such a funny one, because it's almost like we're waiting for the perfect time, which I don't think is what you're saying. But you're saying the timing of where your life is right now is going to let you know whether you'll find someone or not.

    12. LULogan Ury1:41:00

        Yeah, that's a really good point.

    13. JSJay Shetty1:41:01

        Yeah.

    14. LULogan Ury1:41:01

        So I think a lot of people are Hesitators-

    15. JSJay Shetty1:41:03

        Yeah

    16. LULogan Ury1:41:04

        ... where they're waiting to-

    17. JSJay Shetty1:41:05

        Correct

    18. LULogan Ury1:41:05

        ... be the perfect person, when the truth is you'll never be 100% ready. So I'm not talking about that. Like, date before you're ready. What I am talking about is if you meet someone amazing, but your lifestyles don't line up right now or they are in the military and you wanna have a kid right away or, like, all these different situation, and it's like right person, wrong time is probably wrong person.

    19. JSJay Shetty1:41:29

        Fifth and final question we ask is to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

    20. LULogan Ury1:41:36

        Tell the truth. I think just so often we don't tell people how we're feeling. We don't share hard feedback. We're not brave. And look, like, there is a time and a place for white lies, such as, you know, when you ask your husband how you look five minutes before you're going to his work office party, which my husband hasn't gotten the memo on that. But I think if we were just all more honest about-

    21. JSJay Shetty1:41:57

        Yeah

    22. LULogan Ury1:41:58

        ... what we're feeling, what we're worrying about, what's going through our mind, we would just have much richer relationships.

    23. JSJay Shetty1:42:04

        Yeah. I think in relationships especially, I mean, you were talking about first dates and dinners and-I remember the first time I took Radhi out, I thought she liked fancy places.

    24. LULogan Ury1:42:13

        Mm.

    25. JSJay Shetty1:42:13

        I took her some- I couldn't even afford a fancy place, but I'd saved up and took her out to this fancy place, and she literally, from the moment we walked in, I could tell she wasn't enjoying the experience. And I was kinda like, "Oh, this is a nice place," you know, whatever. And she just said to me, she goes, "You know, my ideal date is not being at a fancy restaurant, it's being at Tesco's," which is our version of, uh, Walmart or Target or whatever. And she goes, like, "Buying some bread and cheese and making some sandwiches."

    26. LULogan Ury1:42:38

        Aw.

    27. JSJay Shetty1:42:38

        Like, "That would be my ideal date." And I was like, "Got it." Like, I understood it, and like, I think the next date we, like, literally went down and walked down the grocery aisle and bought bread and cheese and went home. And it was just, to me, it was so useful to have that early on, 'cause I knew I liked Radhi. I didn't care whether we were at a fancy restaurant or not. And I think if she hadn't told me that, 'cause she was like, "Oh my God, maybe I'm gonna turn him off. Maybe I'm gonna scare him. Maybe, maybe I'm..." You know, it's... And I'm like, "Well, if I did, then I was just the wrong guy."

    28. LULogan Ury1:43:03

        Mm-hmm.

    29. JSJay Shetty1:43:03

        Like, it was, to me, it felt like a fair thing to say. You're allowed to like different things, uh, or tell me what you like. We're getting to know each other. I don't know, I think that honesty piece is so important.

    30. LULogan Ury1:43:13

        Yeah, I mean, I think about some of the richest relationships in my life. So there's a woman, Kimberly, I've been working with for the last six years, and I know that if I give her feedback, she will always say, "Oh, thank you so much. I'm gonna work on that." And it's a cliche, but it's true. Like, feedback is a gift, because you're, uh, making someone aware of a blind spot, and then they have the opportunity to improve. And like, I don't walk on eggshells with her, because I know that we can talk through any situation. Or my friend Ellen is obsessed with feedback, and she's so good at receiving it. And [laughs] I remember one time for, I guess it was for Father's Day, like the gift that I gave my husband, because he loves the New York Times crossword, is that, like, Ellen and her husband Nihar came over, and we all did the New York Times Sunday, or I guess the Saturday crossword, like, on, um, like, on our projector. And like, every time I would throw out a word, Ellen would say... I mean, now I'm, like, throwing her under the bus, but she was sort of like, "That's not even the right number of letters," and this and that. And I told her later, I was like, "I'm not that good at crosswords, but I was just kind of having fun, and you kind of, like, embarrassed me where I didn't want to participate." And she was like, "Wow, thank you so much for telling me that. Like, I know I have a competitive streak." And like, the way she received it, where she was, like, truly so grateful for it, I just felt much closer to her.

Episode duration: 1:45:43