Dr. Becky Kennedy: The #1 Mistake Parents Make That Kills Confidence in Their Kids!

Speaker 0:00 We've gone from not caring about kids' emotions to being scared of kids' emotions. The more you optimize for happiness in childhood, the more you actually wire for anxiety in adulthood. Dr. Becky Kennedy. Dr. Becky Kennedy. The go-to voice for modern parenting. Helping parents break cycles and build connections.

Jay Shetty 0:16 What actually makes a good parent?

Speaker 0:18 Repair, without a doubt, is the most important parenting strategy.

Jay Shetty 0:22 What's the worst thing a parent can say to a child that's going through a difficult time?

Speaker 0:27 I don't care about your feelings. I'm not listening. I'm not really connecting. I am telling you what to do. I'm leading with control.

Jay Shetty 0:34 Can you be your kid's best friend and still set boundaries?

Speaker 0:37 Kids need us to embody our authority. Boundaries and validation when paired together, that's what makes for really resilient adults.

Jay Shetty 0:45 What's the cost of being a good kid who never caused problems?

Speaker 0:49 You can't learn to manage emotions you feel like you're not allowed to have. If we can't tolerate the challenging feelings our kids have, and we look for a quick distraction, what they learn is, "I'm a kid, and I find my feelings overwhelming, but oh my goodness, my parent finds my feelings overwhelming."

Jay Shetty 1:07 You've said it's not your job to make your kids happy.

Speaker 1:10 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:10 Then what is a parent's job?

1:15 The number one health and wellness podcast.

1:18 Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. The one, the only Jay Shetty. [laughs] Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. I'm so grateful that I get to talk to today's thought leaders and experts about the things that matter, that make a difference in our daily lives. And today's topic is something I'm fascinated by. It's something I talk to my wife Radhi about a lot, and it's something that takes a lot of my mind space, even though I'm not one of these yet. But today's topic is parenting, and today's guest is Dr. Becky Kennedy, clinical psychologist, best-selling author, and founder of Good Inside, a global parenting and mental health platform. Named by Time as the Millennial Parent Whisperer, Dr. Becky is known for bringing practical, compassionate tools that help families and individuals thrive. Dr. Becky's best-selling book, Good Inside, has helped over a million people feel seen and supported through life's toughest moments. And in today's episode, we dive into how to honor hard emotions, set healthy boundaries, and grow through the everyday challenges of parenting and connection. In all honesty, I've sparked so many of the best conversations I've had around becoming a parent because of Dr. Becky Kennedy's work, so I'm so excited to have her on the show today. Becky, welcome to On Purpose.

Speaker 2:37 Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

Jay Shetty 2:39 It's so great to have you here. I want to start off by diving into just things that you say that really stick with me, and I go, "Oh, yes, that, that's... I, I feel like that resonates." You said, "We've

Jay Shetty 2:49 gone from not caring about kids' feelings to letting kids' feelings dictate what we do as parents."

Speaker 2:56 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 2:56 And when you said that, of course, I'm looking at this as someone who wants to be a parent, but I'm looking at parents around me. That idea that we all feel we grew up at a time when our parents didn't care, they weren't present, they didn't know what was going on with our feelings and emotions. We've now gotten to a place of our kids' feelings dictating what we do.

Speaker 3:16 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 3:17 Talk to me about that.

Speaker 3:18 Yeah. I, I think naming this overcorrection is really helpful because yes, decades ago, I mean, probably in still some families now, right? It's, I don't know, let's say some version of, "I don't want to go to Aunt Sally's house." "I don't care if you want to go to Aunt Sally's house. Put on a smile, put on your shoes or else," and then some consequence, right? Okay, that would be, "I don't care about your feelings. I'm not listening. I'm not really connecting. I am telling you what to do. I'm leading with control." And I think there's a generation of people who are like, "That didn't feel good," you know? And we also know that emotions and learning how to understand your emotions, how to manage your emotions, you can't learn to manage emotions. You feel like you're not allowed to have disappointment as a kid. How could you ever manage disappointment as an adult? So it's not really the pathway to strength and resilience, right? But yes, what I've noticed is something completely overcorrected that I would say is equally as bad for kids. Same situation. "I don't want to go to Aunt Sally's today. It's so boring. I want to hang out with my friends." "Okay, you know what?" And then fill in the blank. "I'll get a sitter. I'll stay home. Uh, let me call three different people and, you know, see what you can do." And there's so many examples of this. "I don't want to leave the playground." "Okay, well, I guess we'll stay at the playground longer." And it's not to say I'm against parent flexibility. Sometimes, of course, we can be flexible. But we've gone from not caring about kids' emotions to being scared of kids' emotions. That's why we let them run the show. That's why we give our kids' emotions kind of the, the steering wheel, and I think what we stand for at Good Inside is something remarkably in the middle. It is very important to see your kids' feelings as real. That's really what it is. That's what validation is. It's the process of saying to someone else kind of, "I might not be feeling what you're feeling, but what you are feeling is real, and I am interested in learning about it." I think that's very important. "Ugh, you don't want to go to Sally's house. I get it. You'd rather be sitting home and watching the basketball game on TV. Totally hear you." And then I think there's a well-placed and, 'cause that is part of our job. Empathizing with a kid's feelings is only half of your job as a parent. The other half is setting a true boundary. Is what I think of as authority without aggression, which is rarely modeled, but is important, which is some version of, "We committed to going to Aunt Sally's as a family, and the truth is, there's a good amount of things we all have to do that aren't number one on our agenda, that are even a little bit boring. This is one of those things. It's okay if you whine on the way there. I know when we get there, you're gonna be able to pull it together. It's not gonna be your most fun Saturday, but we'll get through it as a family. All right? What kind of music do you want to listen to in the car?"

Jay Shetty 6:01 [laughs]

Speaker 6:01 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 6:02 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 6:03 Why do we find that so tough? Why is that so hard to do as a parent?

Speaker 6:07 I think there's so many factors. So I think part of it is actually just a lack of confusion in teaching, right? I think we can get into this bigger conversation. I'll just name it and not go into it now. Parenting is the last job in the world where we glorify instinct alone. We haven't been taught, well, how do I connect to my kid but also hold a boundary, right? It would be like telling a surgeon to do surgery without medical school. That's kind of what we do to parents. So it's really hard-

Jay Shetty 6:33 Send them home with a baby.

Speaker 6:35 Yeah, literally, right? And I, I remember going home with a baby. I looked around. Really? Like, no one's... Just, just a car seat? Like, I, I remember looking around, and no one was coming. I was like, "Guess I'm good. Okay." Um, that's what we do, and it's the hardest job in the world. So I think part of it is, how can you employ a skill in a difficult situation when you've never been taught a skill, and that skill wasn't modeled in your own childhood? So I think that's number one. Number two, and this is, like, a really big one for kind of why right now is this so powerful, so much of parenting is inconvenient. It's just the word that's not talked about enough for parenting. When you have to get out your door to go to Aunt Sally's 50th luncheon, which my guess is maybe you're not really even dying to do either, there's a lot of frustration. Like, your kid is whining. Your kid is saying why they shouldn't go. And if I think about where parenting is today versus decades ago, I think us adults, we've become less and less tolerant of frustration.

Jay Shetty 7:36 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 7:36 We have our phones. We have our dopamine. We have so much more ease in our life. And one of the things I always think about is our kids can't learn to tolerate feelings we don't tolerate in them. So if I have an increasingly lowered frustration tolerance because of all of the ease and dopamine hits in my life, I am inherently less tolerant of my kids whining.

Jay Shetty 8:00 Wow.

Speaker 8:01 And then the reason I let my kids' whining take the driver's seat, and I say, "Fine, you know what? Just go to your friend's house," I actually think it doesn't even have to do with making our kid happy, which I don't think is good as a predominant philosophy either. I, I actually just wanna stop feeling frustrated myself. I just don't wanna deal with it. So if we can't tolerate our kids' disappointment or frustration, they're not learning to, which is why then it looks like their emotions are making all the decisions.

Jay Shetty 8:29 Wow. That, that's extremely powerful, which is why because they can't tolerate their feelings because of our reaction to their feelings, they now don't actually develop resilience or grit or all the things we want them to develop because tolerance and knowing how to accept and sit in the feeling is such an important skill set.

Speaker 8:48 I, I mean, this is everything, right? I think, uh, I'm a visual person, so I've done this before, but I think it matters [laughs] that, you know, if we think about kids, they're born into the world, and they're born with all the feelings and none of the skills to manage feelings. There's a gap, all the feelings, none of the skills. Bad behavior, whether it's a four-year-old hitting their sister, whether it's your teenager saying, "I'm not going to s- Aunt Sally's," whether a kid is saying, "I hate you. You're the worst mom. I don't wanna be in this family," lying to your face, every single acting-out behavior is a sign that feelings are greater than skills. But the problem isn't the feelings. The problem is the lack of skills.

Jay Shetty 9:29 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 9:29 So the answer to, over time, having a lot better behavior or something more powerful than behavior, it's building skills.

Jay Shetty 9:36 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 9:36 Building emotion regulation skills. Kids are not born with those skills, and we as parents, we are kind of the coaches. But I think as our life gets so busy, right, as we're more distracted... And, and just to be clear, let me say right away, I'm not, like, above this. I'm not like, "You should all watch me. I'm a perfectly present parent all the time." No, right? Modern life is so hard, right? But yes, if we can't tolerate the challenging feelings our kids have, and we look for a quick distraction or a quick exit for them right away, then what they learn is something really interesting. What they learn is, "I'm a kid, and I find my feelings overwhelming, but oh my goodness, my parent finds my feelings overwhelming. The things that feel scary and toxic to me, maybe they really are scary and toxic." A- and then, you know, things can kind of go from there.

Jay Shetty 10:30 Yeah, and I think one of the challenges with that is that not only do the kids not have the skills, we potentially as adults have never had time to develop the skills ourselves, and no one taught us, and so that pattern continues.

Jay Shetty 10:43 How do you overcome mom guilt?

Speaker 10:45 Ugh, such a good question. So, uh, let me paint the scenario 'cause I wanna know if we're-

Jay Shetty 10:49 Please

Speaker 10:49 ... talking about the same thing.

Jay Shetty 10:50 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 10:50 So I'll hear... And what I kind of referred to before as a situation, like I'm going out to dinner with my friends, um, and it's often I haven't seen a group of my friends without kids around in, I don't know, however long, a long time.

Jay Shetty 11:03 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 11:03 But then I have my daughter, my son clinging to my leg. "Mom, you never put me to bed." And meanwhile, in this situation, if it's, like, my house, I've, like, put my kid to bed for the last 37 nights, okay? But still in that moment, it's like, "You never put me to bed." And then what a mom will often say to me is, "I feel so guilty. Like, I feel so guilty, it's not even worth going out to dinner. Like, it's not even worth it." I don't know. Is that kind of along the lines?

Jay Shetty 11:25 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 11:25 Okay.

Jay Shetty 11:25 That's spot on.

Speaker 11:26 Great. Okay. So, uh, the way I see this, I actually don't think we're talking about guilt here. I don't. I think this is a misunderstanding of what guilt is.

Jay Shetty 11:36 Mm. Mm.

Speaker 11:37 So I'll start with that. To me, guilt is a feeling you have when you act out of alignment with your values, and in that way, it's a very important feeling. Like, all of our feelings are important for information 'cause it helps you have enough discomfort to reflect on like, "Well, what are my values?" Like, if I no-showed to this podcast and didn't even text you, I'd feel guilty. It is not within my value system-

Jay Shetty 12:00 Mm

Speaker 12:00 ... to no-show on people, right? That would be helpful, and I'd think, "Why did I do that?" Right?But what I hear all the time from moms is, "Going out to dinner, my kid's clinging, I feel guilty." So I'll say, "Okay, really, is it within your value system," and only you would know this, "while you're a mother-

Jay Shetty 12:17 Mm

Speaker 12:18 ... to see your friends some of the time?"

Jay Shetty 12:20 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 12:21 100% of moms say, "Yeah." So I say, "Okay, so this is interesting. This is definitely a painful experience, but this is not guilt. This literally isn't guilt," and here's what I think it is. I think as women especially, but it's not only for women, going back to that good girl idea, we've developed the tendency to scan our environment-

Jay Shetty 12:43 Mm

Speaker 12:43 ... and see other people who are upset with us, and we kind of do this. We're like, "You're feeling uncomfortable. I will take that feeling out of your body, I will take it into my body, and I will call it guilt."

Jay Shetty 12:57 Mm.

Speaker 12:58 "And I will change something I'm doing so you don't have to feel that way."

Jay Shetty 13:02 Mm.

Speaker 13:03 That's not guilt. That's actually emotional confusion.

Jay Shetty 13:07 Mm.

Speaker 13:07 And, and I find visuals helpful, so to me, if you picture yourself on a tennis court, let's say I'm on one side, and my daughter who's clinging to me is on the other side, but instead of a tennis net, let's say there's a glass wall. What will happen is I'm like, "Okay, I'm on my side. I know I wanna go to dinner with my friends. I haven't seen them. It's important. It's within my value system. I'm grounded in that." Over there is my daughter who's upset. Number one of two things are true can help here. Two things are true: I'm allowed to go out to dinner, my daughter's allowed to go upset, to be upset, period. But if I picture that tennis court, the reason it's helpful is I now picture my kid, [laughs] "You never put me to bed. I'm so upset." It's actually really powerful how many people have told me it's true. It's like somehow those feelings in her body start to come out-

Jay Shetty 13:49 Mm

Speaker 13:49 ... and start to come to my side of the court. And all of a sudden they're on my side, and I'm saying things like, "Don't you want me to be happy?" Or, "Fine, I'll cancel." And actually, the interesting thing is I'm not even doing that for my daughter at this point. That's why it's not guilt.

Jay Shetty 14:03 Yeah.

Speaker 14:04 I'm doing that to rid myself of this feeling that wasn't even mine in the first place.

Jay Shetty 14:11 Mm.

Speaker 14:11 And you can't even empathize, because you can only empathize with someone's feeling when it's their feeling. As soon as you've made it your own, you're playing your own game.

Jay Shetty 14:20 Yeah.

Speaker 14:21 So if we, if we go through the scenario, and I do this with so many women, I'm like, "Okay, so you're on this court. I want you to literally imagine doing this," and if anyone's listening and can't see me, I'm putting my hands by my chest, and I'm, like, pushing it out. The visual matters. Like, my kid's-

Jay Shetty 14:32 Mm

Speaker 14:32 ... sadness, I am pushing it out of my body, and I'm giving it back to them. I'm not pushing it away, and I'm not doing it violently. I'm just kind of giving it back to its rightful owner, okay? Because then I can actually empathize.

Jay Shetty 14:45 Mm.

Speaker 14:45 'Cause once it's back in her body, I can say, "Ugh, you really wish it was me putting you to bed and not Daddy, I get that." "Yeah, I really wish it was you." "Listen, this is one of those nights I'm going to dinner with my friends. It's okay if it feels hard. You're safe with Dad. You're allowed to be upset. I will see you in the morning." Now, when I do that, again, my child has never said to me, "Have a great dinner, Mom," or, "That was sturdy leadership."

Jay Shetty 15:12 [laughs]

Speaker 15:13 Or, "You used that guilt tennis image, didn't you?"

Jay Shetty 15:16 [laughs]

Speaker 15:16 That never happened. They keep crying.

Jay Shetty 15:18 Yeah.

Speaker 15:18 Again, we're not... Our good interventions-

Jay Shetty 15:20 Yeah

Speaker 15:20 ... they're just simply not rewarded by kids' calm behavior.

Jay Shetty 15:23 Totally.

Speaker 15:23 And the sooner we realize that, you know, the better, even though we keep wanting it, me too, to be true. And now I go out, and the truth is, on my walk to dinner, I feel a little uneasy. Ugh, I'm like, "I'm so guilty." But I say, "Becky, that's not guilt. That's actually literally not guilt. I am acting in alignment with my values. That is my daughter's distress, and actually, my job is to help her build tolerance for distress, and I a- actually just did that while I kept my dinner plan because I know if I canceled, you think I'm not resentful of my daughter and not screaming her head off at the time she asked for a second book at bedtime because I wish I was at dinner with my friend in the first place." We use our kids' behavior or their reactions as a barometer of whether we're a good parent, and we lose ourself in the process because we're so busy gazing out versus gazing in.

Jay Shetty 16:14 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 16:14 What's a version of gazing in? Is this a decision I believe in? Do I feel like I'm actually being a good leader? Do I feel like this is a decision maybe not only t- for today, but for, you know, every once in a while when we have the energy, a decision that really helps our kid become the kind of teen and adult we'd want them to be? When we call the school, when we do the puzzle, when we fix the friendship issue, right, assuming it's not some really intense abusive bullying, okay, we might end up feeling capable, but we steal our kid's capability. To me, the biggest wins we have in parenting and in so many parts of life are when we shift from, "My job is to avoid all turbulence," to, "I actually know exactly what to do in the turbulence." And when you know what to do in the turbulence, which takes practice, and learning, and support, and never being perfect, you actually feel stronger.

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Jay Shetty 18:27 [swoosh] And I know you've also said that women in particular feel a pressure because there's always been this idea that women should have a maternal instinct.

Speaker 18:36 [sighs]

Jay Shetty 18:36 And you talk about parenting being a skill-

Speaker 18:38 Yeah

Jay Shetty 18:38 ... as much as the kids needing these skills as they're growing up, and women have this unfair pressure of, "Well, it's natural to you."

Speaker 18:47 I mean, I think that that's the thing when I became a mom that was so personally striking. This idea of maternal instinct I think has had a profound impact on our culture, right? Because I'm not saying there's nothing about parenting that's instinctual. I think we instinctually love our kid or there's certain moments that come naturally, but yet when your kid is having a grocery store meltdown and the mom you're trying to become friends with is kind of watching you in the store, right? When your kid says, "I hate you. You're the worst parent in the world," when your kid is delaying, I don't know, a bedtime or brushing their teeth, when your kid lies to your face, "I didn't take money," and you, like, see the Nest Cam of them taking money, we're saying we think our instinct is going to lead to good decisions. No, most people I know would say, "My instinct is telling me to scream in my child's face."

Jay Shetty 19:33 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 19:33 You know why? Because your parent probably screamed in your face, because they didn't have the resources they need, right? And over and over, I'd be meeting parents, it was so interesting, and it was mostly moms who would tell me always some version of the same story. They'd come at a live event, they'd say something nice, and then they would unload, and it was kind of some version of, "I go to bed feeling awful about myself. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm yelling at my kids all the time. I feel like I'm a monster. I feel like I'm messing my kids up forever," right? And then I would kind of contain the situation, I'd listen, and then I'd dig in, 'cause I always want to know when someone's struggling so much, what resources do they have? And I'd always hear the same thing. "Resources, like, this shouldn't be this hard. It shouldn't be this hard. I should be able to figure this out on my own." I don't know, it just, it was striking. If I think about the best athletes in the world, even the ones who have amazing athletic instinct, right? I don't know, Steph Curry, uh, LeBron James. Like, I'm pretty sure they had a lot of coaching.

Jay Shetty 20:31 [laughs] Yeah.

Speaker 20:32 Like, I'm pretty sure they weren't like, "Coaching's not for me. I should be able to figure out this basketball thing on my own." It's really interesting. I think people in almost every other field, they take pride in coaching.

Jay Shetty 20:43 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 20:43 I even think the best CEOs now, it w- it's, it's almost embarrassing if you don't have an executive coach.

Jay Shetty 20:48 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Speaker 20:49 And you don't just get your advice on Instagram. Like, you really have knowledge and learning, and you dig in, and you feel good about it.

Jay Shetty 20:55 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 20:55 And so yeah, if something is supposed to be done by pure instinct, then the only explanation for why you're struggling i- is that you're broken.

Jay Shetty 21:03 Yeah.

Speaker 21:04 A- a- and I feel very passionately about changing [laughs] that narrative.

Jay Shetty 21:08 Yeah. And I, I, I believe you are. And to that point that you're saying, I mean, I had the fortune of interviewing Kobe Bryant before he tragically passed away, around three months before, and he was so clear about the fact that he just put in more time. So it... He was, exactly what you're saying, it's reaffirming your point. He was actually doing double the coaching that everyone else was.

Speaker 21:30 Right.

Jay Shetty 21:30 So he was in the gym before everyone got in the gym, then he did what everyone else was doing in the gym, and then he'd go home and work out again.

Speaker 21:36 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 21:37 And so you've got this person investing and doubling down into coaching, as opposed to saying, "Oh, I'm actually naturally gifted, and I don't really need that," even after winning two, three, four, and then eventually five championships.

Jay Shetty 21:50 I wanted to ask you about that point, because you talk about this idea of parents not being perfect-

Speaker 21:54 Yes

Jay Shetty 21:55 ... but being good at repairing.

Speaker 21:56 Yes.

Jay Shetty 21:57 Which I really, really value as an idea, because I do think we all want to get it perfect the first time, and that's our instinct. [laughs] And like you said, the natural instinct, even though we want to get it perfect as a desire, the natural instinct in any of those circumstances is to act out, is to shout, scream, yell, instruct, direct, dictate. And you gave a few really great anecdotal examples there, but very real ones as well. Talk to me about what parents instinctually do, so that we just normalize the fact that it's okay-

Speaker 22:30 Yeah

Jay Shetty 22:30 ... because no one's gonna [laughs] get it right the first time.

Speaker 22:32 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 22:32 And then talk to me about how you've repaired that, given one of those types of scenarios of going to Aunt Sally's or screaming in the playground or...

Speaker 22:41 Great. Repair, without a doubt, is the most important parenting strategy. I would say repair is the most important relationship strategy, 'cause I think everything we talk about at Good Inside is as relevant in a partnership or at work, with yourself, any relationship. So let's start with this desire to be perfect. I think this is especially true with moms. I don't hear it as much from dads, honestly.

Jay Shetty 23:00 [laughs]

Speaker 23:00 And I think this goes back to a lot of gender roles. I think a lot of us were socialized to be good girls, which I now put in quotes, 'cause I realize being a good girl just means being trained to gaze out and notice what everyone in the world wants from you, and to become as distant as possible from gazing in and noticing what you might want for yourself.

Jay Shetty 23:22 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 23:22 That's really what it means.

Jay Shetty 23:24 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 23:24 How can I please you?

Jay Shetty 23:25 It's a great definition.

Speaker 23:25 Yeah. How can I please you? How can I, how can I meet your need before you even have a need? I notice you're twitching. You're about to get mad. I also know you kind of like this kind of drink, so I'm gonna go make you an iced tea and bring it to you, right? You're looking everywhere and meeting everyone's needs all the time, right? And I think a lot of girls, they learn that that's where their value was a- and I think that's where they, therefore, they feel safest.

Jay Shetty 23:47 Mm.

Speaker 23:47 Right? Is when I'm getting it right for everyone else.

Jay Shetty 23:50 Yeah.

Speaker 23:51 So now we have parenting, right? I mean, people often ask me, like, "Is there a perfect parent? Are you a perfect parent?" I am definitely not a perfect parent. There's no such thing as a perfect parent, and I just even want to say, I don't even think it would be a good thing for a kid to have a perfect parent. Because the dynamic you establish with your kid, the relationship with your kid is the foundation for every relationship they'll have after that, and I, I know it's heavy, but it's true, so I'll say it. The nature of a relationship you develop with your kid is alsoGoing to impact who they're even attracted to in adulthood

Jay Shetty 24:28 Mm-hmm

Speaker 24:28 'cause we're attracted to what feels like home.

Jay Shetty 24:31 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 24:31 Right? For better or for worse [laughs] as a natural attraction.

Jay Shetty 24:34 Yeah.

Speaker 24:35 So I don't think any of us think it's adaptive for a kid to go into the teen, adult years, like, "Who is that person out there who's perfectly attuned to my needs all the time?"

Jay Shetty 24:42 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 24:42 Like, I'm sure you and your wife, that's not the way your relationship works.

Jay Shetty 24:45 No, definitely not.

Speaker 24:46 It's definitely not me and my husband, right?

Jay Shetty 24:47 Yeah, definitely not.

Speaker 24:47 The best it gets is someone attuned to your needs a lot of the time, and they take ownership when they don't, and don't gaslight you, and don't kind of throw you under the bus or blame you for their reaction.

Jay Shetty 25:01 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 25:01 And they repair.

Jay Shetty 25:02 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 25:03 And so if we, like, play that out, right? Yes, we are, we're humans, not robots. We have our own emotional life, our own triggers, and whether it's Aunt Sally's party or being lied to or even, you know, it's, like, the end of the night, I think a classic one, and I know this happens for me, "Oh, chicken for dinner? This is disgusting," and it's like everything you've done for the day and all the moments when you felt invisible and, and the other things that happened that have nothing to do with your kid, it all completely overflows in your bucket of difficult moments I've had to hold together and, and you explode at your kid. "You're so ungrateful. You know, what do you mean? Kids around the world would be..." You know, whatever we say. We lecture. "You're spoiled" and it comes out often in a voice that's legitimately scary, and it's scary in part because our kids need us to survive. So they're like, "Wait, parent I need for survival just became scary parent I'm distant from?" That's- it's a lot to manage. So that I would just say is the rupture moment, and I know this is the moment people listening are like, "Yep, that's it. I'm a monster. I've messed up my kid forever." Those are two different things. Having a rupture moment is not who you are.

Jay Shetty 26:10 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 26:11 And it's not your future, [laughs] and it does not dictate your entire relationship. Yelling at kids messes kids up far less than yelling at kids and not repairing after you've yelled.

Jay Shetty 26:22 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 26:23 It's actually the not repairing-

Jay Shetty 26:25 Mm-hmm

Speaker 26:25 ... that's really hard because then kids are left alone with this intense set of feelings.

Jay Shetty 26:30 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 26:30 They're confused, and they have to figure out, like, "How do I feel safe again? What do I do to move on?" And if kids aren't given a story by us to repair, they often make up a story.

Jay Shetty 26:39 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 26:39 And it's often a story of self-blame 'cause that's the only thing they have.

Jay Shetty 26:42 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 26:42 "I'm a bad kid. Must be my fault." When you repair with your kid, y- you actually get to do something magical. I, I always tell parents, "You actually get to rewrite the ending of that chapter."

Jay Shetty 26:53 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 26:54 Because instead of that one chapter of your kid's book being, "I complained about dinner and unleashed the scary voice from my parent, and I went to my room, and I felt alone, and I felt really shaky," if you picture that as the ending of a chapter, you then get to go in and write, "And then my mom came in."

Jay Shetty 27:12 Mm.

Speaker 27:12 "And she said, 'I'm sorry I yelled. It's never your fault when I yell. I'm working on managing my feelings so I respond more calmly even when I'm frustrated. I love you.'" It actually changes the way the memory lives in their body.

Jay Shetty 27:30 Those simple words, that approach.

Speaker 27:32 Memory is an event, and every other time you've remembered that event, which is why something like therapy is helpful.

Jay Shetty 27:38 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 27:39 So interesting. Why is therapy helpful? My childhood didn't change, but remembering certain things in the context of a new relationship changes the way the original memory lives in your body. You change the story around the memory.

Jay Shetty 27:53 Yes.

Speaker 27:53 And so every time you repair, whether it was a quick, "Hey, I'm sorry, let me try that again. I'm sorry for yelling, you know, at you earlier," or, "Hey, I listened to this podcast. I heard a couple things, and I think there were a lot of years I just sent you to your room, and there were a lot of years I never heard your side of the story, and I'm guessing that just felt really bad. I'm sorry, and look, we definitely might need time to cool off when things are hot, but I'm gonna really try to come to you and better understand instead of judge, and I want you to know I care about that," I, I, I mean, the way that lands in someone's body to reopen a file-

Jay Shetty 28:29 Mm-hmm

Speaker 28:30 ... and kind of give it a different ending, yeah, I, I, I believe it's the most powerful thing we can do.

Jay Shetty 28:34 Yeah, even if they don't react well in the moment.

Speaker 28:37 Yes, and this is what I wanna undo the fantasy, right?

Jay Shetty 28:41 Yes. [laughs]

Speaker 28:41 Like, I go to my teenage son, and I'm like, "I'm so prepared," and, you know, and I picture my teenage son saying, "Mom, I've, I've been waiting for you to say..." No.

Jay Shetty 28:51 [laughs]

Speaker 28:51 My teenage son is gonna roll his eyes and be like, "You're being so weird."

Jay Shetty 28:55 Yeah.

Speaker 28:55 "Get out of my room."

Jay Shetty 28:56 Yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 28:57 But in a way, a lot of us when we hear something emotionally resonant-

Jay Shetty 29:01 Mm-hmm

Speaker 29:01 ... in our best kind of moments, we say to someone else, "I just need to digest this."

Jay Shetty 29:05 Yes.

Speaker 29:06 That, that's what most kids are saying, whether it's a toddler saying, "I need a snack," or it's my teenager saying, "You're being weird. Get out of my room," I really think they're saying, "That was a lot, and I actually just need to kind of push it away for a moment so I can ingest it in my own time." So I would say don't take the bait. Trust that it mattered. Move on. Don't force the conversation, and I have a feeling you'll see evidence of the impact later.

Jay Shetty 29:29 Yeah. The point about repairing

Jay Shetty 29:30 really lands well because I was thinking about when we were all learning how to drive, it was inevitable that at some point we'd have an accident. So you wanted to be mindful. You didn't wanna be neglectful when you were a driver and when you were trained. I've had car accidents, and I think I'm a pretty good driver. I'm assuming with your nodding, you-

Speaker 29:47 Right there with you

Jay Shetty 29:47 ... you've had a car accident, and my wife's had car accidents. Thankfully nothing too dangerous for any of us and anyone I know. But the reality is you're going to have some sort of an accident.

Speaker 29:57 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 29:57 And the biggest mistake you can make is to not repair your car [laughs] when you have an accident and just keep driving that car around and getting into more accidents, and so that lands really, really well.

Speaker 30:06 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 30:06 Because it would be really strange if someone had told me that I was never allowed to scratch my alloys or a rim or a hubcap or a, a side of my car, and I had to, like, drive with that level of... I would probably have an accident simply [laughs] because I was overthinking the whole thing.

Speaker 30:23 That, that's right, or stay in your room all day.

Jay Shetty 30:25 Yeah, you wouldn't even go out.

Speaker 30:26 Right? I mean, a life worth living has-Inherent risk

Jay Shetty 30:30 Mm-hmm

Speaker 30:31 Right? [laughs] And so, yeah, I think that's a really good metaphor. You're going to make mistakes as a parent.

Jay Shetty 30:37 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 30:38 And if you see that as kind of a feature, not a bug-

Jay Shetty 30:40 Mm-hmm

Speaker 30:40 ... [laughs] then, then you can change the focus to, "Okay, what now?" A- and look, while we're talking about repair, I, I think it's important to get in that one of the, the biggest things that gets in our way of repairing with our kid is that most of us haven't learned to repair with ourselves. Because what happens is we do this thing. I yell at my kid, I say they're a spoiled brat, whatever happens in the kitchen when my son simply says, "Maybe it's even just chicken for dinner again," but it's just enough for... You know, it feels like he's telling me I'm a bad mom, [laughs] you know, or something like that. So I've done this thing, and for so many people, they might have someone in their life where like this person is so stubborn, they never apologize, they're so cold-hearted. I, I see it a little differently. I tend to use like a most generous interpretation, MGI, perspective. I think people who really don't apologize, they have a really hard time separating identity from behavior, and that idea of separating who we are from what we do, identity from behavior, is like a core principle at Good Inside and a core way we teach parents to see themselves and their kids, right? It, it's the difference between, "I yelled and I'm a monster" versus, "I am a good parent who had a moment I'm really not proud of." And I actually find doing that with our hands really powerful because you can see the difference. "I'm a good parent," identity, one hand, "who did something I'm not proud of," another hand. Versus, "Ugh, I yelled. I'm a monster. Something's wrong with me," it's an immediate... Th- there's no separation. We can't repair from this place. We can't even function from this place. The saddest thing is we can't learn from this place. It's shame, right? Shame is an animal defense freeze response. We all should know, right, when you are frozen, you can't make movement. And so people who don't apologize, they usually have to hold this thing they did so far away from them. They can't even look at it-

Jay Shetty 32:23 Mm-hmm

Speaker 32:23 ... because it feels so eviscerating to their identity. So I actually think a first step for repair, "I just yelled at my kid," I mean, very practically for me, I, I, if I'm in some shame spiral, I sit somewhere quiet. It's often, you know, my bathroom. I close the door. I sit on the toilet. I put my hand on my heart, put my feet on the ground, and I do say to myself a bunch of times, 5, 10, sometimes 20, "Okay, Becky, I made a mistake. I'm a good parent who did something I'm not proud of." Even, "I'm a good parent who yelled." Like, "I'm a good parent who" forces us, as a sentence structure, to separate those two things, and then it's interesting. I'm in a place where I can think about it more. Also, even before I repair with my kid, what was going on? I had a really bad day. I honestly haven't worked out in a while. I know that's something I need to do for myself. Um, I was really frustrated from work, and I honestly just did not take a moment in my lobby to sit down and talk to myself about it, and you know what? I was probably just a ticking time bomb. I need to... A couple things. I need to look at my calendar and do something for me. I need to take some deep breaths in the middle of the day. I need to sit in my lobby before I go upstairs and say, "What was the most stressful part of my day? Let me write about it. Let me do something to manage my emotions." The only reason I can go through that learning process is actually because I've been able to separate what I did from who I was.

Jay Shetty 33:42 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 33:42 And now I can go to my son or my daughter, whoever it is, and actually give them a repair. And the other thing is when we don't repair with ourself, we do weird repairs with our kids, and they're not repairs. They're either, "I'm sorry I yelled, but if you didn't complain about dinner, it wouldn't have happened," that is not a repair.

Jay Shetty 33:56 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 33:57 Or we say something like, "I'm sorry I yelled. It's, it's okay, right? Uh, it's okay, right? You forgive me?" Like, we ask our kid to do our job for us. Like, I picture like this five-year-old kid who's like, "You're, you're asking me to take care of your emotions after you yelled at me?" That is not a relationship pattern we want to [laughs] establish, right?

Jay Shetty 34:18 Mm-hmm. That resonates so strongly. Yeah, I feel like if you don't go back and do the separation of the identity and behavior on your own, the kid actually just goes, "I'm just not gonna say how I feel around Mom or Dad"

Speaker 34:29 Yeah

Jay Shetty 34:29 ... or, "Mom's just angry," or, "Dad's just mad," or whatever, and then that becomes the label. Whereas when you actually get to go up to them and say, "Hey, I had a really tough day at work today. That doesn't excuse how I behaved with you"

Speaker 34:41 Yeah

Jay Shetty 34:41 ... "I'm really sorry about it," and, um, you know, yeah, and, and then, you know, that, that kind of-

Speaker 34:47 That's right

Jay Shetty 34:47 ... ability to even get them to g- have some context without making it their fault-

Speaker 34:51 That's exactly right

Jay Shetty 34:52 ... I think what, what you're saying when we repair wrongly, we may give them the context, but make it their fault. Like, "Hey, I had a really tough day today, so if you didn't say chicken wasn't terrible-

Speaker 35:00 Right

Jay Shetty 35:00 ... I would've been fine."

Speaker 35:01 Right.

Jay Shetty 35:01 "So I hope you understand I had a bad day." And it's like, oh, well, wait a minute, like, that's too much for me to handle right now.

Speaker 35:06 That's exactly right. Like, a- and the thing that always, like, creeps me out in a good way, 'cause it makes me not do this, is I picture my son, I don't know, now he's 30, 40. Let's say he's partnered, and I'm at his house visiting, and he, like, screams at his partner, I don't know, in a nasty way, and then I hear him say, "Look, I'm sorry I yelled, but if you had remembered toilet paper like I asked you, I wouldn't have yelled."

Jay Shetty 35:28 Mm.

Speaker 35:28 I, I'd be like, ooh, this feels like I don't wanna be here. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 35:33 [laughs]

Speaker 35:33 This is a bad situation. But if, if I've always repaired-

Jay Shetty 35:37 Mm-hmm

Speaker 35:37 ... in his childhood by saying, "I'm sorry I did a bad thing. But look, at the end of the day, your behavior caused me to do that thing," why would I be surprised that that's what he takes into the world, right?

Jay Shetty 35:49 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 35:49 And, and then I just wanna answer a question that's I know not actively being asked, but it comes up every time, 'cause parents are like, "But can't my kid ask if we could have a different dinner in a nicer way?" Or, "Okay, maybe I didn't yell because my kid didn't listen about putting on his shoes, but if my kid put on his shoes, it wouldn't have happened. Help me reconcile." Separate the two things. I always say do a real repair, and then give yourself very practically like 24 hours. Have a very different conversation, which might be, "Look, there's gonna be some days you don't like dinner. Is there a way you could tell me you don't like dinner that's equally as true for you as it is respectful for someone else?" Or, "My four-year-old won't put on his shoes or her shoes." 24 hours later after I say sorry, "Hey, mornings have been really tough for both of us. I wonder if there's anything we can think about together-"That would make putting on shoes easier.

Jay Shetty 36:36 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 36:37 I, I totally understand. That's realistic, but just don't, don't collapse them-

Jay Shetty 36:41 Yeah

Speaker 36:41 ... together.

Jay Shetty 36:41 Yeah. That's, that's the point, yeah. Usually, again, we do extremes. We either disappear and hope that tomorrow's a new day, which doesn't work-

Speaker 36:49 Right

Jay Shetty 36:49 ... it sounds like. Or we try and do everything in that first go at it, and then it, then it collapses

Jay Shetty 36:54 too.

Speaker 36:54 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 36:54 What's been the hardest... You, you've said this before, which I really like, this idea of they're not giving me a hard time, they're having a hard time.

Speaker 37:02 Yes.

Jay Shetty 37:03 And that differentiate is really powerful because I think our language is, "They're giving me a hard time."

Speaker 37:09 Yeah. I mean, look, I'm sure you think about this in so many other contexts, and it's the same as parenting, but to me, when you're in conflict with anybody, you have one of two mindsets, okay? The first mindset, and let's say it's us, where it's like I'm on one side of the table and Jay is on the other side of the table, and I'm just looking at you like you are the problem, and we wouldn't have a problem if you just came to my side and did something more like me.

Jay Shetty 37:36 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 37:37 Right? The other mindset is different. Instead of me against you, where you're the problem, it's me and you on the same side of the table against a problem.

Jay Shetty 37:47 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 37:47 I actually think in business, in marriage, with your in-laws, definitely with your kids, you literally shouldn't have a conversation about something conflictual until you can get yourself in the me and this person against a problem mindset.

Jay Shetty 38:01 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 38:01 "My kid is giving me a hard time" is such a good example of me against you. "My kid is having a hard time" is me and you against a problem.

Jay Shetty 38:09 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 38:09 And I love strategies and scripts. I'm sure we'll get into more of them. I love all those things, but they all fall flat at the end of the day if you're not operating in an effective mindset. And to me, the most important thing a parent can do when they're in a tricky situation with their kid, "Ugh, mornings are so tough. My kid is giving me a hard time. They won't get out the door." Ooh, I hear that phrase, giving me a hard time. How can I get into a me and my kid against a problem, me and my kid on the same team perspective, because then I can think about it very differently. What might be getting in the way of my kid getting out the door? I guess they're going to school. Maybe getting out the door, they're a smart kid, they kinda know as soon as they put their shoes on, they're saying bye to Daddy. Maybe that's it. And all of a sudden, something happens when you get in the same team mindset. I, I think we always love our kids, but when we're in an opposite team mindset, nobody likes to say this, but we stop liking them in the moment.

Jay Shetty 39:00 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 39:00 And they... And there is nothing that is a strategy that will matter more than the fact that your kid just feels that from you.

Jay Shetty 39:06 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 39:07 When we're on the same team, like, something amazing happens. You start liking your kid again. Now it's like a problem to solve together, and everything becomes more effective from there.

Jay Shetty 39:16 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 39:17 What's been the hardest personal situation for you where you feel like you've just been in that zone where you yelled or you didn't like them or you were just repairing? Like, what was the hardest for you personally that took you the most time to get back to this?

Speaker 39:32 I mean, it happens... I just wanna say, I, I, I feel like parenting is more like yoga than anything else.

Jay Shetty 39:38 Right.

Speaker 39:38 Like, people who are really into yoga are like, it's, it's the practice. Like, there's no destination.

Jay Shetty 39:43 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 39:43 So, uh, I'm happy to share some stories, and I will, but I don't want anyone to think like, "Oh, that was then, and this is now," right?

Jay Shetty 39:48 Yes.

Speaker 39:48 Like, this is a constantly-

Jay Shetty 39:50 It's daily. It's daily

Speaker 39:50 ... evolving muscle.

Jay Shetty 39:51 Yeah.

Speaker 39:51 And our kids are always changing, right? So, you know, one of my kids, my, you know, my deeply feeling kid where she feels things more intensely, the explosions are more intense, and there can be huge reactions to things that seem small on the surface. Going to a birthday party, not having the chair she wants, not watching a family movie that everyone else wants to watch, right? And it can feel in the time like, "Why are you being so difficult?"

Jay Shetty 40:16 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 40:16 Right? Versus, "Hold on. She's having a hard time with something." By the way, I wanna say, that doesn't mean I need to cater to that. Like, it's not like she doesn't wanna sit in this chair, so, "Hey, everyone, get up so your sister can always have the chair she wants," or, "Oh, we're gonna watch the movie she wants." I actually don't believe in that. But again, if that's the boundary part over here, what can be hard, yeah, is getting back to, "Hold on. She's a good kid who's having a hard time." I think that phrase to me that I've put out in the world is, is, is like one of the most important phrases, just to, like, practice at random times in your head. "I have a good kid who's having a hard time." It becomes like a little song. You know?

Jay Shetty 40:53 In the same way as, "I'm a good parent who's having a hard time."

Speaker 40:55 Hard time, you know? Um, and then I, I mean, I think I have a kid who's getting older who's a teen. I mean, it's tricky. You feel, you feel rejected. It feels like it's on their time schedule. Like, I wanna talk to my kid all day, and, you know, he doesn't. He's doing his things. He's with his friends. And then it's 9:45, and I'm actually tired, and maybe I'll get to bed early, and he's like, "Mom, I wanna talk." And of, you know, my first reaction is a little like...

Jay Shetty 41:20 [laughs] Yeah, I've been around all day.

Speaker 41:21 And, yeah, like, what? Like, oh, now that you wanna talk? Like, you know, and I kinda wanna retaliate-

Jay Shetty 41:27 Yeah

Speaker 41:27 ... or something.

Jay Shetty 41:27 Yeah.

Speaker 41:28 Right? And then I try to take a deep breath on my good days and say, "This is adolescence. His job is to separate from me. He's trying to figure that out. It's messy. He is supposed to be exploring the world." But, but I always think with adolescence, like, they need to be explorers, not nomads. But when we take them so personally and then refuse to connect, we're actually just leaving them as nomads-

Jay Shetty 41:51 Yeah

Speaker 41:51 ... which is someone without a home base.

Jay Shetty 41:53 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 41:54 It's like, right, he's a teen. He's doing his job. Let me take a deep breath. I have five minutes. Let me go to his room, right? I think that's what it kind of, like, looks like in real life.

Jay Shetty 42:02 Yeah. If I as a dad,

Jay Shetty 42:04 when I have a child, if they came up to me and they really were excited about something, they wanted to share it, and I was busy with work or and I said, "Hey, I just can't talk about that right now"-

Speaker 42:11 Yeah

Jay Shetty 42:12 ... what, what impact does that have?

Speaker 42:13 First of all, I, I, I think there's some, I don't know, narrative out there, like, as a parent, we should be some type of always martyr, right? Like, you're in the middle of a project. I'm making this up. You're like, uh, you're, you know, we're similar. Like, you have some idea, I gotta get it down, and it's gonna... Whatever it is. You know, you're creating something. You're working on something. A good parent is someone who drops that at every second to look at my kid's art project. I don't know, whatever it is. I, I don't buy it.I don't buy it. Now, do I think a good parent is someone who would never do that? Obviously not. Again, there's a middle ground. I think, like most relationships, it's about the how. "Can't you see I'm working? This is ridiculous. This is a Lego tower. It's kind of stupid. I have a big job." I wouldn't recommend that. That's not gonna feel good.

Jay Shetty 42:58 [laughs]

Speaker 42:59 Okay? But if that's one extreme, and the dropping, you know, all the time is the other, I think what's in the middle, like kind of the sturdiness we talk about, is, "Wow, it looks like you're working on something really interesting. I really wanna see it. You know what's crazy? I'm working on something really interesting, and I need five minutes to finish it. I'm gonna need those five minutes actually in silence, which is gonna be a little annoying. I'm gonna ask you to leave my office and close the door, and I promise you right after that, I'm gonna come, and I'm not gonna have my phone, and I wanna see this thing you built and hear all about it." There's this kind of almost wash, rinse, repeat that I think in these moments where boundaries and empathy and connection, they're, they're really not an either/or. So many models of parenting have been one or the other, and I think at Good Inside, we bring them together. And I think, you know, I don't know, I think about people who work in an office, and they wanna talk to their CEO, and that's what you wanna hear from someone. I actually don't want a CEO all the time who's like, "I'm gonna drop everything."

Jay Shetty 43:54 Of course.

Speaker 43:54 Right? Or, you know, you're, you're on a plane, right? And, you know, you wanna visit the pilot with, you know, with your kid or something, right? And they're getting the plane ready. You don't want a pilot, who they're getting everything ready, and they're like, "Sure, come on in." You're like, "Were you just fixing-

Jay Shetty 44:09 [laughs]

Speaker 44:10 ... that engine? Like, may- you know, "Hey, I'm in the middle of something. This is really important. I see your interest. That's awesome. I'll let you know when it's ready, and then we'll do that." That combination, boundaries and empathy, to me, that's always magic.

Jay Shetty 44:21 Yeah. It was, it was [laughs] funny. I was thinking, I was thinking of my kid coming running up to me and me like, "Go away. I've got to interview Dr. Becky Kennedy [laughs] on the podcast about how to be a, how to be a good parent." Like, I was

Jay Shetty 44:30 like that's the... No, and I, and I appreciate that because that to me is just, and I, I'm, that's really reaffirming to hear because I feel like that's just having good, healthy adult conversations.

Speaker 44:40 That's what it is.

Jay Shetty 44:40 And it's giving context, and it's providing a perspective on why and what and where we're at. It's not just like, "Hey, I don't have time right now, I'm doing something really important." There's, there's a validation of them, but there's a validation of yourself. And again, they may not react well to that. They may, when you come back downstairs, they might be like, "I'm not doing it anymore," right? Like-

Speaker 44:59 That's right

Jay Shetty 44:59 ... "I don't care anymore." Like-

Speaker 45:00 Right

Jay Shetty 45:00 ... it was, it's done. It's broken. [laughs] Like, I don't know.

Speaker 45:02 That's right.

Jay Shetty 45:03 The Lego tower-

Speaker 45:03 That might

Jay Shetty 45:03 ... is broken. Yeah.

Speaker 45:04 Or again, like when I set some of the boundaries I feel really proud of with my kid, take a different example, right? Like, my kid is watching TV, and the show is over, and I told them they could watch that one episode and it's over, and I have the remote, 'cause that's a thing. It's like we leave our kid with the remote, and we're surprised we have power struggles. They shouldn't have the remote, right?

Jay Shetty 45:24 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 45:24 'Cause of course they're gonna wanna watch more. They're good kids who are addicted to TV like the rest of us. But let's say it's at the end, and my kid's like, "One more, one more." Maybe for whatever reason, I've decided it's really over tonight. Okay. This is like sturdy leadership in action. I might say, "Look, I get it. It's so hard to stop watching TV, honestly. It's hard for me, too. It's kind of designed to feel like it's not enough. You wanna watch the next episode," something like that. Or, "Hey, you wish you could watch another one?" Keep it simple. Next part, "And TV time is over. I actually have the remote. I'm gonna turn it off. I get it. That's annoying." If I do that in my house, I fear, and it's a fear, that people hearing me think I do that, and my kids, like, stand up and applause.

Jay Shetty 46:03 Yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 46:04 And they're like, "That was A+ parenting, Mom. I'm so lucky to have you. You're keeping me safe from technology, and you're validating my feelings." That has ne-

Jay Shetty 46:11 [laughs]

Speaker 46:11 That has never happened one time. Actually, what's important for parents to know, when you set a true boundary, I'm happy to talk about this 'cause I think people get boundaries all wrong, what they are. But when you set a true boundary, especially if your kid isn't used to it, your kid always responds in the same way, a tantrum every time. That is your big reward as a parent. Like, you're like, "I, I just did the thing, and this is the next thing? Like, where's, where is the confetti?"

Jay Shetty 46:37 Yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 46:37 "There's no confetti." Okay, but if you actually know that your kid's tantrum is a sign that you did actually set a true boundary, you become a lot less reactive to it because unconsciously we think our kid's tantrum is a sign we're doing a bad job as a parent.

Jay Shetty 46:53 Mm.

Speaker 46:54 Our kid's tantrum is often a sign we set a boundary, and they're upset about it.

Jay Shetty 46:59 Mm.

Speaker 46:59 Which then means we can just do the next part of our job. We can validate, "Oh, I know. You wish you were an adult and could decide whatever number of TV shows you wanted to watch." But you better bet even as I'm saying that, I'm not, I'm not turning on the TV again. I'm not. That's not happening. Boundary, they get upset, we can validate, we hold the boundary, kind of over and over.

Jay Shetty 47:19 Mm. And, and where's, like, any emotional... Is there any hugging? Is there, like, affection? Like, or is it-

Speaker 47:24 Yeah, I think everyone's kid is different.

Jay Shetty 47:26 Right.

Speaker 47:26 One of my kids might really want that.

Jay Shetty 47:28 Mm.

Speaker 47:28 "Oh, I know. It stinks. Come here."

Jay Shetty 47:30 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 47:30 You know? And I'm hugging, right? 'Cause that's what happens in the best relationships, right? Where if I, I don't know, if, if I was making not so good decisions for myself, even as an adult, I don't know, I'm at a party and I'm, like, seeing you, and I'm like, "Jay, I hate you."

Jay Shetty 47:47 [laughs]

Speaker 47:47 "Your podcast stinks. I'm..." And my husband was there. I would hope he'd, like, pick me up and carry me out-

Jay Shetty 47:53 [laughs]

Speaker 47:53 ... and sit with me in a room, not because that's something he did to me, because it was something he would do for me. And then maybe even there I'd be like, "I had a bad day," and he'd be like, "I know."

Jay Shetty 48:02 Yeah.

Speaker 48:02 "You had a rough time at Jay's party."

Jay Shetty 48:04 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 48:04 "That was not your best," right? So yeah, maybe I'm hugging. Another one of my kids would be like, "Get away from me," and I might just kind of stay where I am and say nothing because my calm presence is the version of connection she might want, right? So I think that's where, like, what I really love about Good Inside and what I see from, like, our members-

Jay Shetty 48:23 Mm

Speaker 48:23 ... is they're like, I love that they've taken the principles-

Jay Shetty 48:26 Mm

Speaker 48:26 ... and then they take their unique knowledge-

Jay Shetty 48:28 Mm-hmm

Speaker 48:29 ... their unique values, their unique awareness of what's happening, and they apply it-

Jay Shetty 48:34 Yeah

Speaker 48:34 ... in a way that feels totally them.

Jay Shetty 48:36 Yeah. I, I agree. I think the challenge we've created is that we think effective communication is when you get the perfect reaction.

Speaker 48:45 Yes.

Jay Shetty 48:46 And I don't think that's trueAs a parent or as an adult or, or in any capacity, because-

Speaker 48:52 That's right

Jay Shetty 48:53 ... you could communicate something really exceptionally effectively, and the reaction is not the direct response to whether you communicated effectively or not. We think if the kid did applaud, or there was confetti, or they turned around and said, "Okay, Mom, I'll go to bed," we think that's a good day, right? So it's almost this idea of, and this, again, applies to marriage, too, you almost fin- feel like when the person's just responding to you saying, "You're amazing. Well done," or even if it's not that forward, the idea of I'm doing everything you tell me to, we see as a sign of good communication.

Speaker 49:26 I see something very similar with so many parents, and I think this is maybe the biggest thing we love to help shift. We use our kids' behavior or their reactions as a barometer of whether we're a good parent, and we lose ourself in the process because we're so busy gazing out versus gazing in.

Jay Shetty 49:46 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 49:46 What's a version of gazing in? Is this a decision I believe in? Do I feel like I'm actually being a good leader? Do I feel like this is a decision maybe not only t- for today, but for, you know, every once in a while when we have the energy, a decision that really helps our kid become the kind of teen and adult we'd want them to be? You know? So I, I heard this story from a parent the other day. It was really interesting. It, it was kind of this classic public meltdown, right? Birthday party. Her kid only wanted to sit next to the birthday party kid. I get this.

Jay Shetty 50:15 [laughs]

Speaker 50:15 It's a big thing.

Jay Shetty 50:16 I love you.

Speaker 50:16 Sitting next to the birthday party kid is a big deal.

Jay Shetty 50:19 [laughs]

Speaker 50:20 Pizza time came, 'cause everyone has pizza at their birthday parties. Her kid had to go to the bathroom, and she's like, "This is, this is not gonna be good because I know after the bathroom, that seat next to my kid with elbow, that's gonna be gone." It was gone, okay? Major public meltdown. "Oh, oh, you know, I have to have that seat. I need that seat." Meanwhile, it's like, this kid's birthday party. So many times I see this lack of sturdiness. I see, I'm making up this name, "Nora. Nora, we don't yell at other people's birthday parties." I mean, it is, it is actually so sad to witness because kids need us to embody our authority. I, I would say at Good Inside it's authority without aggression, which almost feels like an oxymoron these days. It's rarely modeled, but it's authority without aggression. Now, this mom was telling me this story, and she goes, "You know, it's interesting. A number of months ago, I had a family dinner. My child had this major meltdown. It was, it was the worst day of my week. Like, I felt like it was my biggest parenting fail. She- here's what's crazy. I knew exactly what to do. I picked her up. First, I pulled her to the side, and I said, 'Ugh, this is a hard time. Look, this is a birthday party. That seat's not available. These others are.' It just escalated further and further, and as a parent sometimes you know this is past the point of no return. This is not, not gonna be a good situation. So I knew what to do. I picked her up. I said, 'Nora, I'm picking you up. I'm carrying you to the car. We're just not gonna be able to finish this birthday party today. You're a good kid having a hard time. You're not in trouble. I'm gonna help you through this.'" Her kid, "No, give me another chance," but she was far gone. Carried her to the car. They drove away. They got home, and she said to me, "Is it weird that that was my parenting win?" I just thought it was so beautiful. I don't think that's weird. I, I don't think that's weird at all. To me, the biggest wins we have in parenting and in so many parts of life are when we shift from my job is to avoid all turbulence to I actually know exactly what to do in the turbulence. And when you know what to do in the turbulence, which takes practice, and learning, and support, and never being perfect, you actually feel stronger having piloted a plane through that storm-

Jay Shetty 52:23 Mm-hmm

Speaker 52:23 ... and safely gotten to ground, rather than the anxiety of like-

Jay Shetty 52:27 I just need to avoid

Speaker 52:28 ... all, yeah, that's so... We feel so fragile-

Jay Shetty 52:31 Mm

Speaker 52:31 ... when we're doing that.

Jay Shetty 52:32 Mm. You've said

Jay Shetty 52:34 before that it's not your job to make your kids happy, which applies to what you're saying right now.

Speaker 52:40 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 52:40 Then what is a parent's job?

Speaker 52:42 So I, I think, I, I wanna talk about both those things. Let's start with the parent's job, and then why not only it isn't our job to make our kids happy, but why it's actually a really bad thing for them. The idea of a parent's job has a- actually come up for me because over and over I'd see people in my private practice, and, you know, now through Instagram, different things, and they'd be like, "My kid is having a tantrum. My kid is so mean to her brother. My kid won't do his homework," whatever the situation was. And I'd say, "Okay. Look, all parents wanna do a good job. I know that." But I'd always say to a parent, "Just tell me, what is your job? Forget if you can perform it well. What is your job?" Every parent would look at me like, "I have, I have no idea."

Jay Shetty 53:18 Yeah.

Speaker 53:18 A- and then I think about just offices. Like, I picture someone coming to their job the first day, and their boss saying, "Do a good job," and the person saying, "But, but I don't have a job description. I... By the way, I also don't even know what that dude does over there. I kinda need to know what that person's lane is. I definitely need to know what my job is-

Jay Shetty 53:36 Mm-hmm

Speaker 53:36 ... if I'm going to do it well." So I think any parent listening is like, "It's true. What is my job?" If you don't know, then there's immense clarity. Forget trying to do it well. We just have to have the clarity and the foundation.

Jay Shetty 53:47 Absolutely.

Speaker 53:48 So I think a parent always has two jobs. It's almost every situation, and I'll define one of them, which we didn't get to yet. So setting boundaries and validating your kid's emotions.

Jay Shetty 53:57 Mm.

Speaker 53:57 And they go hand in hand. Setting boundaries is widely misunderstood. I'll share what my definition of boundaries are, which is as applicable to adults as it is to kid. Boundaries are something you tell someone you will do, and they require the other person to do nothing.

Jay Shetty 54:14 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 54:15 We often say, "This person doesn't respect my boundaries." To me, with respect, it's often a sign that someone has an inaccurate definition of a boundary-

Jay Shetty 54:24 Mm-hmm

Speaker 54:24 ... 'cause you're giving all your power to the other person.

Jay Shetty 54:26 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 54:27 So I, I often ask a parent, "Well, what do you mean your kid isn't listening?" Yeah, I live in New York City. This is, like, my kid, and I always say when we go up to the elevator buttons, "Don't press the buttons. Don't press all the buttons." And then my kid goes and presses all the buttons. He does not respect my boundaries. He has a listening problem. Now, if you have a kid like one of my kids who is 0% people-pleasing, it's gonna take a little bit longer than other kids to manage urges, okay?A boundary isn't, "Don't press the button." Is that something I'm telling my kid I will do? No. Does it require my kid to do nothing? No, I'm giving all of my power to my four-year-old.

Jay Shetty 55:03 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 55:03 A boundary would be saying, "Hey, when we go into the elevator, I'm gonna be between you and the buttons. I know it's fun to press the button, sweetie. It's just not something I'm gonna allow, and yep, even if you lunge for it, I'm gonna block you."

Jay Shetty 55:15 [laughs]

Speaker 55:16 That... It's true. It's like you gotta get, like, your-

Jay Shetty 55:18 [laughs]

Speaker 55:19 ... like, karate g- like, there, there's some moves-

Jay Shetty 55:21 [laughs]

Speaker 55:22 ... you can use as a parent. I'll teach you them.

Jay Shetty 55:23 [laughs]

Speaker 55:23 Remarkably, like, kind of, you know, some interesting dance moves going on.

Jay Shetty 55:27 Yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 55:27 But that's a boundary. It's not something I'm doing to my kid. I'm doing it for him, so I don't let him feel like an out-of-control kid. And this is important, so I don't let myself get so frustrated that I end up yelling random punishments I have no intention of keeping. "Anyway, no dessert tonight," and then I'm like, "Actually, you can have dessert. I don't, I don't even care. I don't want you to have a tantrum."

Jay Shetty 55:47 Ugh.

Speaker 55:47 Like, this is what we do.

Jay Shetty 55:48 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 55:48 So that's part of our job, setting true boundaries. Another great example of this, my kid takes the iPad when it's not iPad time. First thing to a question, I'm like, "How?" They're like, "What do you mean how? He just takes it." If it's not iPad time, why does your kid even have access to where the iPad is?

Jay Shetty 56:06 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 56:07 A boundary without words would be what I do. It's not, "Hey, don't touch the iPad in the kitchen." I'm sorry. I'm just gonna speak for myself. If my phone is in a room, and someone tells me not to look at it-

Jay Shetty 56:16 Yeah, you're looking at it, yeah

Speaker 56:18 ... I'm just not that... I don't have a great hit rate there.

Jay Shetty 56:20 [laughs]

Speaker 56:20 Those things are very addictive, okay?

Jay Shetty 56:21 Yeah.

Speaker 56:21 And I have more self-control than my five-year-old, right?

Jay Shetty 56:24 Trust me.

Speaker 56:24 A boundary would be saying, "Hey, from now on, just so you know, the iPad is gonna completely out of reach, out of sight. It's not 'cause I don't trust you. It's 'cause those things are actually built to draw your whole body to them. It really wasn't fair for me to put it somewhere-"

Jay Shetty 56:39 Mm-hmm

Speaker 56:39 ... "and ask you not to get it, so it's just gonna be away until it's iPad time. When it's over, it will shut off, and then I'll put it back in that place." Done. That's part of our job.

Speaker 56:48 The other part of our job is connecting to our kids' feelings, is seeing our kids' feelings as real while not allowing those feelings to overpower us. That is so important. People think validating a kid's emotions means agreeing with their emotions. It does not. My kid is having a grilled cheese. They always like it cut into rectangles. These things matter, and I cut it into rectangles, and today is the day my kid's like, "I needed it in triangles," right? Whatever it is. Now, to me, I know intellectually, I'm like, "This feels crazy. I actually thought about how to cut it. I cut it in a rectangle. That's how you usually like it, but I don't have to agree. Who knows what this is really about?" Validation would just be, "You really wish it was in a triangle today," or, "Oh, this feels really bad. Oh, it feels like the grilled cheese isn't even gonna be yummy when it's cutting this way." People often think if I do that, that means I'm making a new grilled cheese. Depending on the day, if I want to, maybe I will, but maybe I won't 'cause I'm holding the boundary. But validation is simply seeing someone else's experience as real for them, and I think when you think about those two jobs, boundaries and validation, the reason they're so important is I, I kind of profoundly believe that kids are always asking two questions: Am I safe? And our boundaries answer that. And am I real? Because kids have such intense feelings.

Jay Shetty 58:13 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 58:13 I mean, you and I have intense feelings, and the thing about feelings that's so fascinating is when you fall and skin your knee, you see blood, so you're like, "Ow, that's painful." But then you often have some representation of how it's real. "Well, I'm bleeding," or, "I have a black and blue." Feelings are very unique. They are such visceral sensations coursing through your body without any external manifestation.

Jay Shetty 58:41 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 58:42 There, and there's no blood test to, like, tell you you're having anger, so that's very confusing for kids. And so part of what happens for kids when they're feeling intense emotions is we sometimes take the bait too much about the concrete thing they're upset about.

Jay Shetty 58:55 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 58:55 What they're really trying to figure out, which is really the basis of confidence, is, are the things that I am perceiving feeling in my body, are those things real? Because I have to know if they're real before I can learn how to manage them.

Jay Shetty 59:10 I feel like a lot of people think that their

Jay Shetty 59:12 job is to make their kids good people-

Speaker 59:15 Yeah

Jay Shetty 59:15 ... or to be successful.

Speaker 59:16 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 59:17 Or to do well or be able to survive the real world when they grow up. Would you say that, am I safe and am I real, which I love those questions, would you say that boundaries and validation almost will help do all those things?

Speaker 59:30 I think that's a beautiful question, because I guess I'm zoomed, zoomed in to often, like, "Well, what is my job in the moment?" And I think what you're saying is, like, "What is my goal for my kid?" I have those goals for my kid. I want them to be resilient.

Jay Shetty 59:40 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 59:40 Which really means I want them to be able to handle challenges and know that they can bounce back from hard things. I want them to be able to tolerate discomfort, not avoid it or look for the quickest exit from it. I want my kid to feel really at home in their body. I want my kid to feel confident, which to me has nothing to do with feeling good about yourself. It's actually about self-trust, which is why it goes back to feeling like your feelings are real and feeling like you are a better perceiver of your feelings than other people are for you.

Jay Shetty 1:00:07 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:00:08 Yes, I do believe, of course, there's a lot more nuance, but in general, setting boundaries, staying connected to your kid by validating their emotions. There's other things, too, right? Supporting them in their struggle, not rescuing. Asking yourself pretty often, "Am I still doing things for my kid that they can start to learn how to do for themselves, and how can I slowly back away? How can I set my kid up for capability, not fragility," right? There's other things, but in general, yes. I think boundaries and validation, when paired together, they do. That's what makes for really resilient adults.

Jay Shetty 1:00:40 I, I, I would agree with you, and I've never heard it that way before, and I, I really like that because I think sometimes when we think, "Oh, well, I want to have kind kids," and then we're trying to model kindness for themBut the problem is if kindness is free of boundary and free of validation-

Speaker 1:00:56 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:00:56 ... or kindness looks like validation with no boundaries to us-

Speaker 1:00:59 That's right

Jay Shetty 1:01:00 ... and then they're not getting kindness because they don't know what self-kindness looks like, and they only see the martyr or the self-sacrifice version of kindness, quote-unquote, and then that isn't an accurate form of kindness. Now they think kindness means I'll do things for people even if they exploit, abuse, or don't have any set of understanding with me. So they don't become a kind person, they become someone that people take advantage of.

Speaker 1:01:22 I, I think- I think that's really poignant.

Jay Shetty 1:01:24 Yeah.

Speaker 1:01:24 Right? And, and look, it's true. I think this thing people say flippantly, like I'll be at a dinner or something, you know, and someone's like, "Don't you just want your kid to be happy?" And I always, I always picture my husband being like, "Becky, please don't ruin. That was just a throwaway comment."

Jay Shetty 1:01:36 [laughs]

Speaker 1:01:36 Like, don't-

Jay Shetty 1:01:36 This is amazing. I love-

Speaker 1:01:37 Don't be a bummer, you know?

Jay Shetty 1:01:39 Right.

Speaker 1:01:39 And then like half the time I listen, half the time I'm like, "Actually, it's not what you want." Everyone's like, "What?"

Jay Shetty 1:01:43 Yeah.

Speaker 1:01:43 And I'm like, "Sorry, I just can't help myself."

Jay Shetty 1:01:45 Yeah.

Speaker 1:01:45 Um, but, and again, we love, as humans, we hear someone say, "No, that's not true," and then people will say to me, "You want your kids to be unhappy?" Obviously not.

Jay Shetty 1:01:55 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:01:55 There's, again, so much in between two extremes, but here's the thing about optimizing for happiness in childhood. I, I firmly believe, and I've seen it over and over, that the more you optimize for happiness in childhood, the more you actually wire for anxiety in adulthood.

Jay Shetty 1:02:10 Explain that.

Speaker 1:02:12 L- let's take a situation that happens often, and then I'll zoom out-

Jay Shetty 1:02:14 Yeah, please

Speaker 1:02:14 ... but I think the stories matter.

Jay Shetty 1:02:15 Please, yeah.

Speaker 1:02:16 Um-

Jay Shetty 1:02:16 They do

Speaker 1:02:17 ... I'm the only one in my class who can't read. My kid comes home and says this. This is, first of all, let me just say, this is so painful. Like, seeing your kid in pain as a parent-

Jay Shetty 1:02:27 Mm

Speaker 1:02:27 ... it's so painful. I think a lot of our instinct is, "Let me make my kid happy," right?

Jay Shetty 1:02:32 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:02:32 And, and we all, me too, I will say the craziest things. I'm like, "Well, Bobby isn't even good at lacrosse. At least you're good at lacrosse. That's gonna matter more in life." I'm like, "Why am I throwing Bobby under the bus? What did Bobby do?"

Jay Shetty 1:02:42 [laughs]

Speaker 1:02:42 He's like a totally nice kid.

Jay Shetty 1:02:44 [laughs]

Speaker 1:02:44 Whatever it is, we say nutty things, right?

Jay Shetty 1:02:46 [laughs]

Speaker 1:02:46 Um, and so I'm the only one in class who can't read, right? And so I think an image helps here a lot because it explains why we don't wanna make them happy, and it explains resilience and anxiety all at once. So the way I think I want someone to imagine this is your kid is kind of wandering around a garden, and there's benches in this garden, a lot of them. And right now they're on the bench of, "I'm the only one who can't read." But I think you and I, Jay, we know that's not really the bench. The bench is, "I see people who are able to do things I can't do."

Jay Shetty 1:03:14 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:03:14 Or, "I feel jealous," or, "I feel less than." And the truth is that is a bench you will sit on at various times for the rest of your life.

Jay Shetty 1:03:23 Yeah. That feeling of everyone else can read better than me-

Speaker 1:03:27 Exactly

Jay Shetty 1:03:27 ... is something you're gonna feel at college, at work.

Speaker 1:03:30 Rest of your life.

Jay Shetty 1:03:30 Yeah.

Speaker 1:03:30 Or maybe it's I wasn't invited to, you know, whoever's birthday party. You know what? You're gonna... Like, I'm, I'm not included in something. I don't have that popular belong- the rest of your life. So if I picture my kid on this bench-

Jay Shetty 1:03:43 Mm

Speaker 1:03:44 ... I think as parents we often have two instincts. Number one, we try to, uh, we try to convince our kid that their bench isn't their bench. "That can't be true. You can't be the only one not reading yet." Even though our kid is kind of like telling us.

Jay Shetty 1:03:55 Telling you.

Speaker 1:03:56 [laughs] Right? Which over time, if that's the pattern, creates a ton of self-distrust. "Oh, maybe other people know how to perceive my world better than I know how to perceive this world." All in the name of trying to not make my kid uncomfortable. Or we see a sunny bench on that side of the garden, and we're kind of like, "Just come. You're an amazing lacrosse player. You're the fastest kid, but you're an amazing artist." And, and all of that can be true, but if you think about, to me, what anxiety is, I don't think anxiety is a feeling as much as it's a running away from a feeling.

Jay Shetty 1:04:29 Mm.

Speaker 1:04:30 It's kind of the experience of I don't want to be feeling the way I am right now.

Jay Shetty 1:04:35 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:04:36 So a kid is wiring up their body, they're understanding how the world works, and they're understanding in childhood what feelings and experiences are tolerable and what feelings and experiences are intolerable. The latter become anxiety. So, "Mom, I'm the only one who can't read," and I'm like, "Oh, that's not true," or, you know, I just kind of fix it right away, or I throw them a party to make them distracted. So what does my kid learn in their body? I was feeling disappointed, less than. And what kids wire next is our response. And what comes next is escape into happiness, escape into distraction.

Jay Shetty 1:05:12 Mm.

Speaker 1:05:13 And if we think about this bench, my kid is sitting on this bench, and I think we're all in those moments just looking for someone to sit down next to us. Because the thing is, if my parent can sit on this bench with me, it can't be as awful as I think it is.

Jay Shetty 1:05:30 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:05:30 It literally can- if they yank me from it or try to convince me it's not true, what they're really saying is, "You're feeling upset, but I, I can't really connect to the part of you that feels this way. I, I can't do that." That is so scary for a kid because they're like, "I guess this really is bad." And so in the name of kind of making our kid happy, [laughs] what we really do is we develop a whole range of emotions our kids learn are intolerable. And if we think about what anxiety is later on, kind of, okay, so let's say this kid later on, and again, I'm not... This is not one intervention. This would be many, many patterns, right? But whenever a kid is upset, optimize for happiness. Optimize for happiness. I think the thing we realize at a certain age, it's different for everyone, 14, 18, 30, 50, whatever it is, is when I'm really upset about something and something doesn't go my way, there actually isn't always an off-ramp to happy. Like, when I get fired from my job, I'm, I'm not gonna be happy in an hour. I'm, and I mean this, I mean this seriously. I guess maybe if I go to drugs I'll be happy right away. I mean, maybe if I have something else. But feelings don't work that way.

Jay Shetty 1:06:41 Yeah.

Speaker 1:06:42 And, and there's no one, I don't think, who's just giving me a new job. Like, and so by the time I get to those hard moments in adult life, either I've developed the ability to cope with feelings, or-I'm so accustomed to always expecting happiness-

Jay Shetty 1:06:59 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:06:59 ... that ironically the way I feel my distress is even more intense because the gap-

Jay Shetty 1:07:05 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:07:05 ... is so big, right? It's kind of like the light goes on of distress, and I've always expected it to go totally off. I don't even have a dimmer switch anymore. It's just on is horrible, and I need it to go off. When I think about what that means, and then I like to give parents, like, an alternative. My kid says, "I'm the only one in my class who can't read." I actually think there's three lines, like, 'cause I like to give concrete-

Jay Shetty 1:07:27 It's a script.

Speaker 1:07:28 Yeah, that can, like, really embody the idea of what I say, like, we always say at Good Inside, the feelings bench. Sit on the bench. Sit on the bench. And, and you become a bench warmer, right? So the first one is just, "I'm so glad you're talking to me about this." This is so powerful in marriage, too. [laughs] Like, or work, you know? "Hey, I, I feel like you've been on your phone a lot, and I don't know, I feel really disconnected." Imagine if the first thing your partner says back is, "I'm so glad you're talking to me about this." What you're actually saying in a deep attachment way is the part of you who feels this way is attachable to me.

Jay Shetty 1:08:03 Mm.

Speaker 1:08:04 I'm sitting with you. I'm so glad you're talking to me about this. "Yeah, they were handing out books, and everyone got chapter books, and I got this baby picture book. Ugh." The second line, ultimate confidence builder, is just, "I believe you." We can talk more about that. I think those are the three most important lines in parenting, [laughs] often just, "I believe you." And then the third is gonna feel remarkably unsophisticated, but it's so powerful. It's just, "Tell me more. Tell me more." "Oh, yeah, and then, and then it was, like, me in a reading group of one, and my friends were all in this other reading group." And the amazing thing that happens 99% of the time, "I'm so glad you're talking to me about this. I believe you. Tell me more," your kid then tells you the story. What you're really saying is, "I'm on the bench with you. I'm not afraid of this bench. I don't need to take you to a sunny bench. I'm here. How bad could a bench be if I'm willing to sit on it? I'm not gonna let us both self-destruct. I am here." And then what happens 99% of the time truly in this visual is your kid gets off the bench before you do.

Jay Shetty 1:08:58 Mm.

Speaker 1:08:58 They literally... Like, I've seen this a million times. My kids are like, "Oh, can I have that snack now?" And I'm like, "I'm sorry, what? Oh."

Jay Shetty 1:09:04 [laughs]

Speaker 1:09:04 "Okay." Like, you just wanted to know that I could tolerate this, that I could be with you in this. And then what we do in their body is, not with the story, 'cause the story's just a representation of a feeling. Disappointment, jealousy, embarrassment, whatever it is, has a little bit more of a container and a home, so the next time a kid feels that feeling, it's not as panicky. It has a home. And if you think about your body as all these jars of feelings, and this is the irony about happiness, the more jars we have to contain different parts of our distress, the more space there is-

Jay Shetty 1:09:38 Mm

Speaker 1:09:39 ... for happiness.

Jay Shetty 1:09:40 Mm.

Speaker 1:09:40 Anyway.

Jay Shetty 1:09:40 Yeah. That's, that's a beautiful visual as well. It's a really nice thing to think about.

Jay Shetty 1:09:45 Is there a part of that, do you then address the reading challenge? Or what do you do-

Speaker 1:09:52 Great question

Jay Shetty 1:09:52 ... from a practical-

Speaker 1:09:52 Totally

Jay Shetty 1:09:53 ... standpoint on that after that moment?

Speaker 1:09:54 Love it. Love it. So right. So let's say this is happening.

Jay Shetty 1:09:57 Yeah.

Speaker 1:09:57 And then you're thinking like, "Does my kid need a reading tutor? Do I just need to spend-"

Jay Shetty 1:10:01 Right. Right.

Speaker 1:10:02 All of that can happen.

Jay Shetty 1:10:03 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:10:03 Now, I, I think what kids really feel in our first response, "Ugh, I'm the only one in the class m- can't read. Okay, one second, I'm calling the reader tutor right now."

Jay Shetty 1:10:10 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:10:10 In a way, the visual, again, is like my kid is still alone on the bench. They're like, "Where'd my mom go?"

Jay Shetty 1:10:15 Yeah.

Speaker 1:10:15 "Where'd my dad go?" She is... You know, I just-

Jay Shetty 1:10:17 Yeah.

Speaker 1:10:17 So I would say again, just, like, stay for a bit.

Jay Shetty 1:10:19 Mm.

Speaker 1:10:20 I, I think one of the most underutilized things in parenting is time.

Jay Shetty 1:10:24 Mm.

Speaker 1:10:25 It's like, yeah, and I think we under-

Jay Shetty 1:10:26 Which we don't have, yeah.

Speaker 1:10:27 Yeah, or maybe we do have.

Jay Shetty 1:10:28 Mm.

Speaker 1:10:29 You know, I can call that tutor. Why don't I just give myself to the night? Let me sleep on it. Because my kid is gonna pick up on kind of my panic and my own anxiety around it. So absolutely, if that was me, I might think, "Ooh, maybe I need to sit with my kid. Maybe I need to teach them some phonics." It doesn't have anything to do with phonics. Are they a kid who's kind of perfectionistic, and they're just not wanting to try because they're failing? Do they have a k- a sibling who's really gifted, and so they've labeled themselves as the not smart kid? I, again, there could be a million things.

Jay Shetty 1:10:59 Yeah.

Speaker 1:10:59 It might not even be an academic tutor. But I think when you sit on the bench, you give yourself also a little bit more time to tolerate it. You can access your curious mind, and then absolutely, of course... I'm, I love taking action.

Jay Shetty 1:11:13 Mm.

Speaker 1:11:13 But it, but it would be from, like, a sturdier place.

Jay Shetty 1:11:16 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:11:16 And in a way that's actually gonna be more helpful to your kid.

Jay Shetty 1:11:19 Yeah. That's, that... I, I couldn't agree more. I mean, I know when I've done the healthy thing or the unhealthy thing in my marriage, like, it's really common. [laughs] I re- I remember the other day my, my wife approached me, and she had this new business idea that she just shared with me randomly in a moment, and I was like, "Yeah, we can't do that right now 'cause we're doing this thing over here. Like, we're already building this, and that's gonna..." And she was like, "Just give me an opportunity to just tell you about it." Like, and she, she said it in a, she called me out in a nice way, and she was just like, "I literally just wanted to share something I was really enthusiastic about." And I was like, "Oh, God, I'm the worst."

Speaker 1:11:51 Totally. She's like, "Sit on my enthusiasm bench-

Jay Shetty 1:11:53 Yeah

Speaker 1:11:53 ... for a moment."

Jay Shetty 1:11:54 Literally, that's all she wanted me to do.

Speaker 1:11:55 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:11:56 And, and, you know, she was w- she was more than willing to hear my logical reason as to why it's not the right time, or maybe it was, or maybe I... And I was... And, and again, it was a complete reflection of my own insecurity or anxiety I was having around something else.

Speaker 1:12:11 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:12:11 And I was reflecting that and projecting that onto her, and she was kind enough to call it out to me in a, in a way that didn't lead to an argument, which it may have in the past. Like-

Speaker 1:12:20 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:12:20 ... you know, which-

Speaker 1:12:21 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:12:21 ... maybe, maybe five years... We've been together for 12 years, but five years ago maybe we would've dealt with that very differently. But her being able to say that to me, I was like, "Yeah, you're right, actually. Like, you just were excited to share something with me, and I had the time. I was there with you. I was just giving y- I wasn't even listening."

Speaker 1:12:36 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:12:37 I, I wasn't present, yeah.

Speaker 1:12:38 And, and, and I, and I just wanna be clear, like, I talk a really good game. This whole sitting on the bench thing, it's, it's hard. Of course I don't do that all the time. We're, we're all-

Jay Shetty 1:12:45 No, of course

Speaker 1:12:46 ... like, we're in a rush. We just wanna fix and move on. But these ideas and doing them a little bit more often, or trying them one time-

Jay Shetty 1:12:53 Yeah

Speaker 1:12:53 ... i- it's really cool to see what happens.

Jay Shetty 1:12:56 Well, I think you hit the nail on it, the fix and move on.It's like that's ... We want to remove the pain of the people we love, right? We wanna be able to extract the pain in that moment, and we see that as success. For us, healthy parenting or healthy relation is if you share a pain with me, if I can take it away right now like magic, then I've done my job. And therefore, we call the tutor, we ... I say, "Oh, well, here are all the logical, realist reasons. Don't worry about it." It, there, it's this fix and move on, and what you're asking us to do is not fix until later. It's almost like, "Don't move. Sit right here-

Speaker 1:13:32 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:13:32 ... and then think about fixing it maybe in 24 hours, 48 hours, and trying to figure out what, what the problem is." But it's completely the opposite of what we think success is.

Speaker 1:13:42 It is, and I think kind of having that idea in your mind really matters to start the different actions. Like, wait, even if I just say it, like we all have to try on dea- ideas before we believe them. It's not my job to remove my kid's distress.

Jay Shetty 1:13:55 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:13:56 It's not my job to make my kid happy. If my kid has a really hard day, that is not a sign I have failed. Now, I, I like to take hard ideas and turn them, like, so far on their head that they become hyperbolic, and so I'll share it here 'cause it might be useful. 'Cause now that I work the amount I do, right, I think about the, the, the time that I have with my kids, right? I'm like, "I really wanna make the most out of it." And there was this period when my kids were younger where I was like, "Man, I come home. It's just like a tantrum and whining," and it's really easy. I hear this from friends too. Like, "That's what I come home to?" Like, I, I bust my butt to leave work early to come home to the tantrum, to the whining. Okay. But here's, here's a way to shift it, right? Or to hear about my kid being left out, these painful things. I, I know a lot of people, and I definitely would put you in this category, who are driven by impact, and I actually think as humans we have a lot of needs. I actually think impact is a need. Like, I think we need to feel impactful in the world. When our kids are perfectly happy, "Oh, Mom, you came home from work. Thank you. Also, I got 100 on my test, and three of my friends are planning parties. I was invited to all of them, and in general, just feeling 10 out of 10." Okay, that's never happened, but let's just say that did.

Jay Shetty 1:15:07 Yeah.

Speaker 1:15:08 I, I would love to witness that moment, but I promise you I'm not impactful in my kid's life in that moment. My kid's fine.

Jay Shetty 1:15:14 Mm.

Speaker 1:15:14 Moving on. And I don't even know how many of us need anybody when that's happening.

Jay Shetty 1:15:17 Yeah.

Speaker 1:15:18 But I started to do this reframe to myself, and it was very extreme, 'cause that's the only way it caught for me, where I was coming home, my kid was having then that tantrum about whatever it is, the blue cup wasn't blue enough today. I don't know, something like that. And I started to say to myself, "Becky-

Jay Shetty 1:15:35 Mm

Speaker 1:15:36 ... this is my bang for my buck moment."

Jay Shetty 1:15:37 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:15:38 Literally. This is the moment, if I'm driven by impact, that, that I wanna be home for. Because my kid is probably just releasing the stress of their day, or the blue cup is too blue is a way of saying, "There's so many little things in my day, Mom, that didn't go the way I wanted, and I haven't released it until now." And if I can be there in that moment, don't get me wrong, I- I'm not gonna say it's, like, purely enjoyable, but oh my goodness, is it impactful.

Jay Shetty 1:16:04 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:16:05 And that really, really matters down the road.

Jay Shetty 1:16:08 Yeah. And it motivates you too in the moment.

Speaker 1:16:10 It kind of does motivate me.

Jay Shetty 1:16:12 Yeah.

Speaker 1:16:12 The other thing that motivates me too is, you know, I think about this thing that happened with one of my kids where they have this, these projects in his school, and some of the projects for this week are really good. They're, like, amazing. We live in New York. They're, like, these amazing opportunities, and I'd say three or four of them are, like, everyone's like, "Those are the bad ones." Like life. So there's how good of a project you get, and then also they split up kids into groups, so kids wanna be with their friends.

Jay Shetty 1:16:35 Mm.

Speaker 1:16:35 So there's always factors. How many of my friends am I with? Did I get the good project? First project week came out. My son got ... and it just was the worst project with not a soul he knew. It was like the, the ... Right.

Jay Shetty 1:16:47 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:16:49 Okay. So this is the moment I think, and my kid, my son, obviously, he was, like, really upset. Again, I don't know if kids were like, "This is a learning moment." No, he was, like, really upset. "Why is this the case," right? Okay. So the phrase I've developed that, that I do think is powerful just 'cause it gets me in a different mindset is sick joy, and I'll explain what I mean.

Jay Shetty 1:17:07 [laughs]

Speaker 1:17:07 Okay? I know what really matters in life going forward is being able to stay grounded when things don't go your way.

Jay Shetty 1:17:15 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:17:16 He might not get into his college of first choice. He might not get the job he wants. He might, you know, whatever it is, go buy a car, and he thinks he's getting a certain car, and they don't have that one in stock. I mean, not getting the thing you want is ... I don't, it happens every day in adult life.

Jay Shetty 1:17:29 Yeah.

Speaker 1:17:29 And I think you and I know adults who are no more prepared to deal with those situations well than they were when they were two.

Jay Shetty 1:17:35 Absolutely.

Speaker 1:17:35 It's just adult versions of tantrums. We can't build skills for experiences we don't have. We can't buy that skill. We can't verbalize it. We can't lecture it. You have to feel it. It's just the unfortunate truth. And I think especially if you live a life where there's a decent amount of privilege, which my kids have, like, there's a lot of ease in moments. And so, look, I did not say to my son, 'cause I don't wanna, I'm not gonna walk myself into a bomb, "This is a good situ-" No, I'm not gonna say that, okay? But in my head, I really mean this. Instead of being like my urge is to take that away, I'm like, "You know what? Like, I have a little sick joy. Like, this is, this is not gonna be fun for the next three days." First of all, he needs to borrow my belief in him.

Jay Shetty 1:18:20 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:18:20 If I can't believe he can get through this, if I'm, like, calling the school right away, "You need to change-"

Jay Shetty 1:18:24 Change the school.

Speaker 1:18:25 What I'm really saying to him is, "I see you as a very fragile human."

Jay Shetty 1:18:29 Mm.

Speaker 1:18:30 And kids form their identity through us. We are their mirror. We show them who they are. I'm basically saying, "You are fragile. You can only operate successfully when things go your way." Eesh, entitlement, all the things we don't want. And so a part of me-

Jay Shetty 1:18:44 That's how you end up, yeah

Speaker 1:18:45 ... a part of me is like, "This is soIt's actually funny. There are, this is this dynamic you'll see when you, if you have kids where people call the school a lot and they're like, "I need my kid to be with this teacher and these three best friends." One, I was telling this story to one of my friends about, you know, the middle school project, and my friend who knows me well goes, "Did you call the school and ask him to get the worst project with no friends?" [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:19:05 [laughs] That was so good.

Speaker 1:19:07 And I was like, "No, I, I didn't go that far."

Jay Shetty 1:19:09 Yeah, sick joy. [laughs]

Speaker 1:19:09 But that is like-

Jay Shetty 1:19:10 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Speaker 1:19:11 ... but like if you really, totally shift your mindset-

Jay Shetty 1:19:13 Yeah, yeah

Speaker 1:19:13 ... because how we respond, as you know, is mindset. It's our framework. The events are the same, but when your framework changes, everything changes. So if you're like, "My kid didn't make the soccer team," holy moly, not enjoyable, painful for both of us, but I can really have an impact that-

Jay Shetty 1:19:31 Yeah

Speaker 1:19:31 ... probably when he's 25 he's not gonna thank me for-

Jay Shetty 1:19:34 Yeah

Speaker 1:19:34 ... but I know-

Jay Shetty 1:19:35 Yeah, yeah

Speaker 1:19:35 ... he's gonna function better because this happened and how I showed up.

Jay Shetty 1:19:39 For sure.

Speaker 1:19:39 And I think that's so amazing to hold onto.

Jay Shetty 1:19:42 I love that for two reasons. The first is

Jay Shetty 1:19:44 that I think we have a warped view of what care is.

Speaker 1:19:48 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:19:48 So we think care means let me call, let me figure it out, let me get you a better friend group, let me get you a better project. So we're thinking that that's what care looks like, and now my kid knows I care for them. But actually, what you're saying in your words is, "I don't believe in you. I'm not sure you can get through this, and I can fix everything." And so instead of them thinking, "Oh, Mom cares about me," it's Mom or Dad or whoever it may be can fix everything because they don't trust in me.

Speaker 1:20:15 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:20:15 And then the other part why I love that answer is because you're also not doing what I think we often do with our family and friends, and because I'm not a parent I've not done it with a child, but you're trying to teach the lesson before living the lesson.

Speaker 1:20:29 Ugh, yes.

Jay Shetty 1:20:29 Right? So you're trying to teach the lesson where it's like, "This is a good thing," and your kid's like, "No, it's not, Mom. I hate this." And you're like, "No, it's a really good thing. You'll learn in the long term that this is the best thing that happened to you." [laughs] And the kid's like, "What are you talking about?" And so-

Speaker 1:20:42 Right

Jay Shetty 1:20:42 ... rather than like, "Let's just do it for three days." [laughs]

Speaker 1:20:45 That's exactly right.

Jay Shetty 1:20:46 Yeah, do it.

Speaker 1:20:46 Like, I, I'm not a marathon runner.

Jay Shetty 1:20:48 Yeah.

Speaker 1:20:48 I'm not in terribly good shape, but if I was and I was running a marathon and someone's like, "This is an amazing thing. Are you loving every s-" I'd be like, "I'm sorry, I'm gonna feel really good about myself the day after the marathon."

Jay Shetty 1:20:59 Yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 1:21:00 I, I don't know that, like, no one feels great, I don't think, climbing Mount Everest. You do it for an experience. You bear down. You know it's gonna be really hard, and at some point you look back and you're like-

Jay Shetty 1:21:10 Absolutely

Speaker 1:21:10 ... "That was good for me."

Jay Shetty 1:21:11 Yeah.

Speaker 1:21:11 So I think that, and what you said also that just made me have a new thought, when we call the school, when we do the puzzle, when we fix the friendship issue, right, assuming it's not some really intense abusive bullying, okay? I wanna say, we might end up feeling capable, but we steal our kids' capability.

Jay Shetty 1:21:30 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:21:31 We steal it from them. We f- I called the school. I fixed it. My kid is now deprived of an opportunity to watch themselves do something they thought they couldn't do.

Jay Shetty 1:21:41 Yeah.

Speaker 1:21:42 I, I, I don't, I, I don't think we wanna take that away from our kids.

Jay Shetty 1:21:45 Yeah. My w- my wife's talked about that all the time. She talks about like when she was a kid, if she wanted to not go to the dentist or not go to the doctor, whatever it was, she'd get her, or even as a teenager at this point, she'd get her older sister to make the call, and she wouldn't wanna make the call. And so as she's got older, it's got harder and harder and harder for her to make these calls or to cancel something or whatever it may have been, and it took her so long, even probably in through to when we first started dating, 'cause then she'd ask my opinion or ask me to do it, and I'd be like, "No, you do it."

Speaker 1:22:14 Right.

Jay Shetty 1:22:14 Because I grew up the other way where I always did everything, like paid for my car insurance, paid for my first car, my phone bill, so I was very comfortable doing those things. And I was like, no, but I don't wanna be seen as the savior in this situation. I also don't wanna be seen as like I'm, I'm the hero of this scenario, because I don't wanna make you dependent on me for, you know, for those things. And it was really interesting for her, and now she would look back and she'd be like, "Oh my gosh, like I was just never given the opportunity-

Speaker 1:22:39 That's right

Jay Shetty 1:22:39 ... to do really s- No, and I'm not gonna... Those things feel hard at the time, and so I don't wanna take that away, but yeah, if you never get given the ability and the opportunity, later on it's gonna make you really unstable.

Speaker 1:22:52 Yeah, and, and I'm, I'm really big on helping parents teach these kids, because again, I think there's a lot between two extremes. One extreme is, well, think about it. Okay, like your kid can't make their sports practice, and they have access to a computer for an email to their coach. So easy, just write the email, right? Okay. So one extreme is write the email to your coach, and your kid might be like, "I can't do it," right? It's not a big deal. Write it. And over here is I'll write it for you.

Jay Shetty 1:23:16 Yeah.

Speaker 1:23:17 I really believe in a middle ground. Your kid is nervous, right? But there's a lot between it's not a big deal, do it yourself, and I'll do it for you.

Jay Shetty 1:23:24 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:23:24 And I think that can start with, "Look, I get it. It's a new thing to write your own email."

Jay Shetty 1:23:28 Yes.

Speaker 1:23:28 "Here's what I can do."

Jay Shetty 1:23:29 Yes.

Speaker 1:23:29 You know, "Give me a couple minutes. I need to finish this work project. Then I'm gonna give you my full attention. Let's sit at your computer together, and let's-

Jay Shetty 1:23:37 That's great

Speaker 1:23:37 ... start writing the email together." Scaffolding.

Jay Shetty 1:23:39 Yeah.

Speaker 1:23:39 Right? Just like we... Kids don't go from not knowing how to swim to swimming in the ocean.

Jay Shetty 1:23:44 Yes.

Speaker 1:23:44 There's scaffolding. "Okay. Well, how could you start? Great. Okay. Dear w- okay, I'll teach you. You often, you often start dear. Dear what's your coach's name? Coach... Okay. Oh, yeah. Dear, okay, yeah," and then you do a comma. Do you see where the comma is? Right there. But I make my kid press it. Great. Then you press return. W- what is something you could do? You can lead your kid to the water. How could you tell Coach Mike something like, "I'm not able to go to practice today"? And your kid's gonna say, "I guess I could say I'm not able to go to practice t- That's... Yes."

Jay Shetty 1:24:13 Yeah.

Speaker 1:24:13 "Yeah, that, great." But let them have the win.

Jay Shetty 1:24:15 Yeah.

Speaker 1:24:16 Help them type it, right? Maybe the next time you check in on them. Like, that's, I think, the middle ground, and if we think, again, kids aren't born with the skills-

Jay Shetty 1:24:25 Yeah

Speaker 1:24:25 ... and then you think about yourself as a coach.

Jay Shetty 1:24:27 Yeah.

Speaker 1:24:27 Good coaches in any sport don't usually say, "This isn't a big deal."

Jay Shetty 1:24:31 Yeah.

Speaker 1:24:31 But they also don't make the layup-

Jay Shetty 1:24:34 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:24:34 ... for someone.

Jay Shetty 1:24:34 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:24:35 Right?

Jay Shetty 1:24:35 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:24:36 No, that's such a great way of putting it. It's, and I, and I like the whole how Good Inside is based on this middle ground-

Speaker 1:24:41 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:24:41 ... because we all get lost in the edges and on the corners and the extremes, and we keep oscillating between these two ways of being rather than realizing, well, it's a bit of this and a bit of that, and probably not all the way on either side. And it's so much more easier to think about it like that, because I think our brain does this thing where it goes, "Well, should I be assertive or should I be affectionate?" And it's like, well, be assertively affectionate. Like-

Speaker 1:25:04 Ugh, love that

Jay Shetty 1:25:06 Rather than, yeah, do I be kind or do I be like, you know, do I challenge them?

Speaker 1:25:10 Right.

Jay Shetty 1:25:10 And it's like, well, figure out a way to kindly challenge them, like which is what you just did in this email writing.

Speaker 1:25:15 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:25:16 Which was like it was a challenge, but you were kind about it. And all of a sudden, a- and it's so real that that's what we all want. If I think about anything my parents failed at teaching me, it was because it was just expected that I should know how to do it. And anything they wanted teaching me was because they sat down and did it with me, or someone did. And I remember I worked at a company where I learned how to cold call when I was like 15 years old. Probably one of the best lessons I've ever learned in my entire life, but it only worked because this guy called Joel sat next to me, who was a pro at it, and he sat next to me for my first like 10 calls and would write out the words for me and script and coach for me, and then I did 290 phone calls after that without him.

Speaker 1:25:55 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:25:56 And it was just those 10 calls that made me feel so confident, and I didn't know what cold calling was. And now everyone's listening going, "What the hell is cold calling?" But it was when you were trying to sell stuff over the phone to people you didn't know. Uh, and, and it was-

Speaker 1:26:07 Back in the day

Jay Shetty 1:26:08 ... yeah, back in the day, yeah.

Speaker 1:26:09 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:26:09 And it was just that kind of an experience of, yeah, having someone hold my hand and have a script, and kind of could see me stress out on the phone when someone said something I didn't expect, and kind of put a word in front of me. And it was like, oh, okay, that's how you do it.

Speaker 1:26:22 Yeah, and look, I think this stuff, it's so old in our body, right? Like, I think about an issue I was having with one of my kids-

Jay Shetty 1:26:28 Mm

Speaker 1:26:28 ... a year or two ago, a small issue, just like, "Why is his towel on the floor?"

Jay Shetty 1:26:31 [laughs]

Speaker 1:26:31 "Why is it always on the floor?" I, I actually am not someone who cares about my kids having like a very neat room. I don't know why. I'll look into it in therapy. But like the towel, the wet towel on the floor is just, it's a thing my kids know I care about, and there's not that many things like that. So it's on the floor. And every time, "How hard is it? How hard is it to take your towel and put it on the hook," right? Like, there's so many ways. And if we go back and you think about your equivalent in your childhood of towel on the floor, right? I think that's what a lot of us were met with.

Jay Shetty 1:26:59 Mm.

Speaker 1:27:00 Just like our parents' frustration. Again, they were doing the best they could-

Jay Shetty 1:27:03 Mm

Speaker 1:27:03 ... with the resources they had, right? But the best bosses in the world, if they get a report from someone that's not good, I can't imagine. They're like, "How did you do it like this?" Like, "Well, I don't know how to do it differently-"

Jay Shetty 1:27:15 Yeah

Speaker 1:27:15 ... "then." And so I thought about this, and I find a helpful question with your kid to, to start with, be like, okay, wait, I have a good kid. Let me remind myself I like my kid.

Jay Shetty 1:27:23 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:27:23 I have a good kid. What is a skill my kid would need to develop to be better able to even pick up the towel on the floor?

Jay Shetty 1:27:34 Mm.

Speaker 1:27:34 And when I asked myself that question, something crazy happened. Just, it, it- I had a thought I'd never had before 'cause of the mindset shift. I said, "I wonder if he notices it." Like, when I look in his room and the towel's on the floor, I don't notice anything in the room-

Jay Shetty 1:27:47 Mm

Speaker 1:27:47 ... except that towel.

Jay Shetty 1:27:48 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:27:48 But I know there's, there's so many times that me and my husband where he's like, "Did you not see this?" And I was like, "Oh, w- it just wasn't capturing my attention." So I realized that, and then I realized he probably walks by it, he goes out. It's not on his mind. So we talked- I talked to him about this. I said, "Hey, this has become a thing. I don't want to keep fighting. What would you need to do to remember to pick up your towel?"

Jay Shetty 1:28:09 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:28:09 And at first he's like, "I don't know." And I was like, "Well, where do you walk, like, in your room before you go out?" He's like, "I always go by my door."

Jay Shetty 1:28:15 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:28:16 I said, "Well, what would you need to do or even put around your door to remember?" And literally, he goes, "I don't know, like, a Post-it Note?" It, it was, uh, uh, it was so simple. I, I, my heart's chasing. It felt so deep-

Jay Shetty 1:28:28 Yeah

Speaker 1:28:28 ... 'cause of the process. And I was like, "Oh, like, what would the Post-it Note say?" And he's like, "I don't know. Towel?"

Jay Shetty 1:28:33 Mm.

Speaker 1:28:34 I was like, "Okay." And then this is an interesting moment. He goes, "Could you write it for me?" I was like, "No. I'm not" ... And kind of again, "I'm not gonna do it 'cause I, I know that's something you could do for yourself, and I think it will be more meaningful if you do. And in our family, you know, we take care of our things, and this is one small thing I ask. And so you know what? We're together. You have Post-it Notes right where you work. Uh, it would be great if that's something you could do now, or if you want to do it on your own schedule, maybe some point before tomorrow." And then I do the thing where I think this really matters. I walk away.

Jay Shetty 1:29:01 Mm.

Speaker 1:29:01 Nobody likes to listen or do something someone asks when you're, like, breathing over their shoulder.

Jay Shetty 1:29:05 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:29:06 Right? So there's like an element of trust. A- and truly, the next day, I, I saw a note.

Jay Shetty 1:29:11 Mm.

Speaker 1:29:12 And, and, and I would say after that it was like a, maybe a 50% hit rate with the towel.

Jay Shetty 1:29:17 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:29:17 50 was better than zero.

Jay Shetty 1:29:19 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:29:19 I learned so much in this process. I use it with so many other things for my kids. Like, "Oh, you always forget to take your water bottle." Okay. Like, I can get frustrated about that, or I could help them build some new skill. Because again, what's gonna transfer is when my kids are in college, there's gonna be something that happens. "Oh, I keep forgetting to study for my tests on time," or, "I'm late to class." Either they'll hear my voice saying, "What's wrong with you? This isn't that hard," or they'll hear, "Hold on a second."

Jay Shetty 1:29:45 Yeah.

Speaker 1:29:45 "I'm a good person. What's going on? What would I need to do to be better able to do this thing I want to accomplish?"

Jay Shetty 1:29:53 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:29:53 That's the process you're really modeling. That process into adulthood as we know-

Jay Shetty 1:29:58 Yeah

Speaker 1:29:58 ... that's a winning process. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:29:59 Yeah. It's gonna pay off-

Speaker 1:30:00 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:30:01 ... so big.

Speaker 1:30:02 And-

Jay Shetty 1:30:02 Even if it takes time.

Speaker 1:30:03 That's right. And you know what I don't want when my kid's in college? Like I always say, there's certain jobs I always want. My kid's going through a hard time, something tricky, always happy for them to call me. Like water bottle rememberer, alarm clock setter. I don't need my kid in college to be-

Jay Shetty 1:30:17 Yeah

Speaker 1:30:17 ... calling me that they forgot their water bottle or that they, you know, don't know how to pick up their towel or that they forgot to set their alarm clock.

Jay Shetty 1:30:23 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:30:23 So if I'm not helping them scaffold those skills-

Jay Shetty 1:30:27 Yeah

Speaker 1:30:27 ... I shouldn't be surprised, I don't know, when they kind of still lean on me for them.

Jay Shetty 1:30:31 Yeah, at that later age.

Speaker 1:30:32 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:30:33 Yeah. No, it's, it's such a... I wonder whether it's... I felt like my parents felt very comfortable getting us to do chores early on, though-

Speaker 1:30:39 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 1:30:40 ... in our life, and so I remember ironing my shirts for school since I was probably, like, 13-

Speaker 1:30:46 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:30:46 ... maybe. And then my, my sister and I had a routine after dinner where we'd either one of us would wash the dishes or clean the table, and the other would clean the table and wash the dishes. And I felt like those were healthy routines that we just knew, that were locked in, and we hated doing them. I never liked doing it. Ironing I got some pride in. I'm still like a very proud... We used to iron, not steam, and now I've learned how to steam since moving to this country. But this idea of I didn't like washing up the dishes or cleaning-

Speaker 1:31:11 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:31:12 ... the table. It was just part of our routine.

Speaker 1:31:13 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:31:14 What is the value of discipline even when you hate it?And what early chores are healthy and useful?

Speaker 1:31:21 I, I, I think this is such an important conversation and, and you actually said something that I often say. You beat me to the punch. First of all, there is just immense value to kids spending time doing things that are unenjoyable.

Jay Shetty 1:31:33 Mm.

Speaker 1:31:34 I think especially now, a- and I'm not trying to say I'm always above this, but we've somehow moved to this world where we're always optimizing for each kid.

Jay Shetty 1:31:43 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:31:43 It's really interesting, even like the weekends are split, like I'm taking this kid here, this kid here. We do that sometimes too. It's necessary. But almost unconsciously we don't realize I'm, like, always optimizing for my kids' pleasure. I remember the time that one of my kids was like, "What? I have to go to my sibling's soccer? Like, he's not even good at soccer," which was true. He wasn't that good, right? A- and it was [laughs] the moment where I was like, "That's actually exactly why you're gonna go." Like, the weekend is not about optimizing your personal pleasure-

Jay Shetty 1:32:12 Mm

Speaker 1:32:12 ... at every second.

Jay Shetty 1:32:14 [laughs]

Speaker 1:32:14 Like, it's good for you to go and be bored. It's good for you, even if you could have a play date, to sit and watch. That is such an important thing to be a good human.

Jay Shetty 1:32:24 Mm.

Speaker 1:32:24 A- and it reminds me of the time that my kid was like, "Folding clothes is boring. Why do we have to do this?" And I found myself, I, I said this thing. I'm just like, "You know what? To be a good human, you just have to do things that are boring and unenjoyable sometimes." I, I don't know. I, I... but I think it's true.

Jay Shetty 1:32:42 It's true. It's true.

Speaker 1:32:43 It just... I don't have a better way of saying it, just... And my kid was like, "Oh, oh."

Jay Shetty 1:32:46 Yeah.

Speaker 1:32:46 It kind of like s- i- i- it struck him. Like, you know, no one had ever just said that.

Jay Shetty 1:32:51 Yeah.

Speaker 1:32:51 That's, like... So the fact that you had a childhood where there was this built-in routine of things that were mundane-

Jay Shetty 1:32:58 Yeah

Speaker 1:32:59 ... largely unenjoyable. You can make them enjoyable, put on the music, do things. We try to do that in our house. But actually, I think that's relieving for a parent, "Oh, I don't have to make my kid's life amazing in every moment." Going back to entitlement, like, what an individualist, relatively entitled view of the world to go forward. Like, I should spend 99% of my waking hours doing things that I want to do and bring me pleasure. Now, do I think you should spend some amount of time? Yes, a lot. But the idea that some of your childhood is doing things that are good for the family, that are more about being there for your sister, right? I think that is so important. But what it means is tolerating distress-

Jay Shetty 1:33:43 Yeah

Speaker 1:33:43 ... and tolerating pushback and tolerating whining. There's so much whining. Now, the other reason, though, I think chores are really important, they're a way to feel impactful.

Jay Shetty 1:33:53 Mm.

Speaker 1:33:53 It's one of the biggest things we take for our kids is when they're only spending time doing the things they wanna do, they're not really having an impact in the real world.

Jay Shetty 1:34:03 Mm.

Speaker 1:34:03 Like, clearing your plate and learning how to wash it off and putting it in the dishwasher, how concrete that is and how visual all the plates were there, then they got clean-

Jay Shetty 1:34:14 Mm

Speaker 1:34:15 ... ish, then they went to the dishwasher, then someone wiped them down. Like, you are watching yourself have purpose-

Jay Shetty 1:34:23 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:34:23 ... and impact in the world. Your kids will not say thank you for that when they're younger, but I promise you that's critical to their mental health.

Jay Shetty 1:34:30 Yeah.

Speaker 1:34:30 They don't wanna live in their own world where they're just spinning and thinking and optimizing. They actually do have a need to feel like they're... That's what it is, feel like they're a part of something.

Jay Shetty 1:34:40 Mm.

Speaker 1:34:40 And I actually think chores, again, if done right, so many times chores are almost given as punishment.

Jay Shetty 1:34:45 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:34:46 Not it. I, I think it's a really important structure for that.

Jay Shetty 1:34:50 Yeah, and I love the way you broke down that process, like seeing yourself do something from start to finish and complete something and have to do it as a routine. That is so much of adult life.

Speaker 1:35:02 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:35:02 And it's, it's hard. It was one of the mistakes I made with... So I started working when I was, like, 14. I used to deliver newspapers, then I worked at a grocery store, and so I've been working for a long time, and I have a younger sister who's four and a half years younger than me, and I never wanted her to work 'cause I just wanted her to be protected-

Speaker 1:35:16 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:35:16 ... in the, in my naivete of being a teenager myself-

Speaker 1:35:19 Of course

Jay Shetty 1:35:19 ... at the time.

Speaker 1:35:19 Out of love.

Jay Shetty 1:35:20 Out of love. But we talk about it all the time now where, like, I started working since I was 14, so work is very normal to me. I get it. I know what it takes. It's a part of my life. I've always had to pay my way. And for my sister, it's like she didn't start working until she graduated, and she likes to get away from work as much as she can because she didn't have that routine and rhythm from that early age, and there was so much growth at that time that you made socially by having a job and being around people of different backgrounds and different ages. My-

Speaker 1:35:50 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:35:50 ... boss was 50, and there was a 60-year-old person at the checkout and a 20-year-old person and just generational, you know, experience and exposure, and so much I gained from working in a grocery store that I could never have learned at home.

Speaker 1:36:04 A- and I think about that word capability.

Jay Shetty 1:36:06 Mm.

Speaker 1:36:06 I bet you built a ton-

Jay Shetty 1:36:08 Absolutely.

Speaker 1:36:09 I'm, I'm a person who can do hard things. I'm a person who can go into a situation that's totally new-

Jay Shetty 1:36:15 Yeah

Speaker 1:36:15 ... nuanced, has ups and downs, and no matter what, I finish the day just the best it often is, is I, knowing I can get through it.

Jay Shetty 1:36:22 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:36:22 That's so important. It, it, it's the other thing that's, it's kind of different than chores, but having our kids do real things in the real world-

Jay Shetty 1:36:30 Mm

Speaker 1:36:30 ... right, I, I think is something that we need to put a lot more attention to.

Jay Shetty 1:36:34 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:36:35 Right? I, I know Jon Haidt talks about this a lot.

Jay Shetty 1:36:37 Yes, yes. Yeah.

Speaker 1:36:38 Right? We kind of overprotect kids online-

Jay Shetty 1:36:40 On the show, yeah

Speaker 1:36:40 ... and, or we underprotect kids online and overprotect them in the real world, and he and I talk about this a lot. I think I've watched my kids, right? We live in Manhattan, right? And so mobility for kids is maybe a little easier. They don't need a ride somewhere. But when I see, you know, my kid who can go get bagels for the family on their own, right? Take public transportation on their own, the pride and capability they feel, I, I promise you, I mean, I think academics and school and all those things, and sports are really important. Don't get me wrong. I, I just, I don't s- I literally don't see this, like, visceral feeling in any other place than when they're in the real world feeling like a capable person who's operating like everyone else.

Jay Shetty 1:37:21 Mm.

Speaker 1:37:21 And so I think that, and everyone can ease into that in their own way, right? It might be you go to y- the doctor with your kid, and you let them check in. It might be you let them tell their pediatrician, "Hey, how is she doing this year?"Let her answer first, right? It's emailing the coach instead of you doing it. It's maybe you don't live in a city where a kid can walk to the grocery store, but maybe you hang back and let them check out. I mean, there's so many situations, but that communication of trust and capability, if you reflect that to your kid, and then they start to experiment with that, it's so critical.

Jay Shetty 1:37:55 Yeah. I think a lot of

Jay Shetty 1:37:56 pressure that parents are feeling right now about that overprotection is also feeling that they have to be available and monitoring and be around and entertain all the time, and it goes back to your... this point that you've spoken about the whole time.

Speaker 1:38:11 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:38:11 This dichotomy of we didn't get a lot of time from our parents growing up for a lot of people. Parents weren't around because they had to pay the bills and take care of stuff, and now it's the opposite, where parents feel like, "Well, I have to work from home. I have to be completely flexible. I have to be there all the time." And I feel like that's a lot of pressure for two reasons. One is you now feel like every waking moment has to be spent entertaining a kid, which is exhausting, but we all feel the pressure societally and culturally of if you don't, your kids can have trauma. And then the other side of it is we talk about what it means to be a good parent because it makes us feel good about ourselves, but not about what kids actually need.

Speaker 1:38:54 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:38:55 So if I think about the difference between what makes me feel like a good husband versus what does my wife actually need, like, what makes me feel like a good husband is a, a long list of things that my wife would pick up on, be like, "Yeah, but I don't need any of that stuff," and, and I feel like kids might do the same.

Speaker 1:39:13 I think that's r- really smart. [scoffs] I haven't thought about it that way, but I, I, yeah, I think we should dive into that. I mean, I think we have an idea. What makes me feel good is if, yes, I'm always available, always watching, I'm always make sure they don't slip off the ladder of the playground, right? What does my kid feel? "Nobody trusts me. I don't have any space. I don't even know anymore what's me and what's my parent. Like, it's like we live [laughs] in this enmeshed world." Now, I don't think a kid could ever articulate, right? Again, we're not gonna hear from our eight-year-old, "I'd love a little more space."

Jay Shetty 1:39:47 [laughs]

Speaker 1:39:48 It's just not gonna happen, right?

Jay Shetty 1:39:48 I mean, yeah, until they're teenagers.

Speaker 1:39:49 But they might, they might say it in other ways, right? And I really don't think it's just me. I think The Good Inside really is this movement. It's ignited something in people. I think there's, like, a lot of us who are like, I... Yeah, this whole always being there, always fixing, right, um, always witnessing. This kind of way we've confused emotional safety with emotional comfort. Those are very different things. Um, I, I think there's, I think there's, like, a new wave, right?

Jay Shetty 1:40:17 Mm.

Speaker 1:40:17 I mean, I think one of the reasons why we're so resentful, we're so reactive, we can be so rageful, we're on our phones all the time around our kids, is 'cause we rarely have time without our kids, [laughs] right? And, and it's actually important for everyone.

Jay Shetty 1:40:35 Yeah.

Speaker 1:40:35 And again, people hear that, and they go to these awful, extreme places. "So you're just gonna slam your door and tell your kids you can't hang out with them?" No, nobody said that. I'm definitely not saying that. That would not be a good way to operationalize this concept, but helping your kids h- learn how to play independently, if you live in a neighborhood with other kids, helping them figure out that they can play on that neighbor's lawn and you don't have to be there. Maybe you're nervous, but maybe you, we have to fake it till you make it. You're like, "Yeah, I totally trust you," and then you turn and you're, like, texting your friend like, "Oh my goodness, help me through this. Okay, I have one window up top that actually is blackened from the outside so they can't see I'm watching them."

Jay Shetty 1:41:07 [laughs]

Speaker 1:41:07 But then maybe after a week, you're not doing that, right? Or for me too, letting our kids go to the grocery store without them. It is a leap of faith, and we all have different levels of anxiety to manage, but I think that's right. Kids need space. Of course, kids need attention. They like to be witnessed, but I mean, imagine your wife-

Jay Shetty 1:41:29 Yeah

Speaker 1:41:29 ... following you around at every moment.

Jay Shetty 1:41:32 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:41:32 Beyond probably on some level feeling annoying-

Jay Shetty 1:41:35 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:41:35 ... there's a message of like, "Uh, uh, I actually don't trust you."

Jay Shetty 1:41:38 Yeah.

Speaker 1:41:39 "And I also don't trust our relationship enough to feel like we could have that be strong if you are also your own person." And I think, yeah, I think we really need to redefine parenthood-

Jay Shetty 1:41:50 Yeah

Speaker 1:41:50 ... along those lines.

Jay Shetty 1:41:51 Yeah, no, I'm glad.

Jay Shetty 1:41:52 Yeah, no, I was just thinking about it. I was just like, when you think about any other space, it's almost like if I... From any job, if I serve burgers at McDonald's, my worth is not calculated by if I feel good doing that. It's calculated by what the customer needs and wants. So if the customer ords- orders a cheeseburger and I serve them a Coke and fries because that makes me feel better, that's not accurate. It's about-

Speaker 1:42:18 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:42:18 And so I'm not saying we have to do what our kids want.

Speaker 1:42:21 Totally.

Jay Shetty 1:42:21 It's probably a bad example, actually. I take that back. But, but there's a sense of like, am I aware of what children actually need?

Speaker 1:42:27 Need. I think-

Jay Shetty 1:42:28 What do children actually need is a... That's a bad metaphor, but yeah, it's, it's like what do children actually need versus what makes me feel good in the moment.

Speaker 1:42:35 I think that's right.

Jay Shetty 1:42:36 Yeah.

Speaker 1:42:36 And look, there's this dance, the dance between independence and dependence.

Jay Shetty 1:42:42 Mm.

Speaker 1:42:42 It, it's constant, right? Independence grows from the safety of dependence.

Jay Shetty 1:42:48 Mm.

Speaker 1:42:49 It's true for us, too. I'm sure in part you feel like you can try all these new things and, you know, be honest and vulnerable in part maybe because you feel like at the end of the day, I have my wife I can come home to. Like-

Jay Shetty 1:43:00 Yeah

Speaker 1:43:01 ... I have a secure base-

Jay Shetty 1:43:02 Yeah

Speaker 1:43:02 ... which means I can go explore. That's really important.

Jay Shetty 1:43:06 Yeah.

Speaker 1:43:06 So yes, the time we spend with our kids, the way we connect with them, but the truth is, after those stages of intense kind of connection or dependence, the way kids actually grow is from the safety of dependence, they do things that are new.

Jay Shetty 1:43:23 Makes so much sense.

Speaker 1:43:23 It's, it's when so many parents say like, "I feel so guilty. I'm going on a trip away from my kid, and my kid's upset," right? And I often ask, "Well, who are they staying with?" "I don't know. They're staying with grandma," someone who they're like-

Jay Shetty 1:43:33 Yeah

Speaker 1:43:33 ... or they're staying with their partner or someone who they're perfectly safe with.

Jay Shetty 1:43:36 Yeah.

Speaker 1:43:36 And they're like, "Is this, is this so bad for them?" And I always say the same thing, and I mean it.Not, not only do I think it's good for them, I think your kid is gonna consolidate all of the skills you've been working on them with

Jay Shetty 1:43:48 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:43:49 Right? It's kind of like if you're a basketball player and you have a coach, and they're watching and they're watching, and they're working on this thing. You need time in the gym without that coach-

Jay Shetty 1:43:57 Yeah

Speaker 1:43:57 ... to then kind of go do the thing, and then you know what? You're gonna get back with a coach and work on the next thing. But I just want parents to hear that. Yes, be there. That connection, that validation, and then the periods where either you're traveling or you're not there, that is actually probably the time your kid can bring it all together, and not only consolidate skills, that's when you know it's yours.

Jay Shetty 1:44:19 Yeah.

Speaker 1:44:19 If I'm only, I don't know, able to do a good presentation when my boss is in the room, a part of me always wonders, like, is it my boss?

Jay Shetty 1:44:27 I would, like... Yeah. Wow.

Speaker 1:44:28 So-

Jay Shetty 1:44:28 That's a great point

Speaker 1:44:29 ... and my boss is sick, and I go to my boss, I crushed it. I feel like it's me. Now I'm like, "That was me."

Jay Shetty 1:44:36 Mm.

Speaker 1:44:36 So yeah, we really wanna give our kids that opportunity.

Jay Shetty 1:44:39 That's such a great point. I love that. I was-

Speaker 1:44:41 Better, better than the McDonald's?

Jay Shetty 1:44:42 Definitely better than my McDonald's.

Speaker 1:44:43 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:44:44 But, uh, okay.

Speaker 1:44:44 We were trying to get there together.

Jay Shetty 1:44:46 I was trying to get there.

Speaker 1:44:46 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:44:46 I was like, "No, that's not working. Backtrack before you..."

Speaker 1:44:49 That's the thing with metaphors.

Jay Shetty 1:44:50 Before you go any further.

Speaker 1:44:50 You never know what you do.

Jay Shetty 1:44:50 Okay.

Speaker 1:44:50 I'm like, "Actually, it's not good."

Jay Shetty 1:44:51 Yeah, yeah. I was like, "I've never said that before, so let's backtrack."

Speaker 1:44:54 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:44:54 Uh, but no, there's, that resonates strongly. I was... My tour manager is from London. He was traveling with me. We just finished a North American Canada tour. We did, like, 15 cities, and he, he's toured with me twice. We did a world tour two years ago. So he comes from London. He has two little boys, and he was saying that the last time he left, he was... He only had one, but he was telling his kid, he was like, "Oh, I'm really sorry I have to go away." And this time he said he was changing it, where he's like, "I'm really excited to go away. I'm gonna miss you, uh, but I'm really excited. I'm, I'm doing this show, and we're going live, and we're doing this thing." And, and he was saying how he wanted his kid to, A, feel excited for him-

Speaker 1:45:32 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:45:32 ... rather than feel like, oh, Dad hates going to work, and he's sorry, and he's feeling bad about it.

Speaker 1:45:37 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:45:37 And at the same time, like, feeling like his kid had space to grow and, and feel that confidence. And yes, of course, his kid FaceTimed him every day and missed him and whatever it was, but there was that sense that he was like, "No, I want him to feel positive-"

Speaker 1:45:48 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:45:49 ... "about the fact that I'm going away. I don't want him to feel like I'm nervous that I'm going away and I'm gonna be away from him." And now he's taking on that anxiety as well, that Dad's scared that he's leaving me behind without him, with Mom, who obviously [laughs] you know, like-

Speaker 1:46:02 Right, is there too

Jay Shetty 1:46:03 ... is the main carer and loves me-

Speaker 1:46:05 Right

Jay Shetty 1:46:05 ... and, you know, is always around there for me. And so it's... He was like, "No, I want him to f- leave feeling good."

Speaker 1:46:10 And I think really sturdy leaders do that. Like, my language for that is two things are true.

Jay Shetty 1:46:15 Right.

Speaker 1:46:15 So going back to boundaries and validation, two things are true. I can set a boundary. You can be upset. Two things are true. I'm excited about going on tour with Jay, and I'm gonna miss you.

Jay Shetty 1:46:26 Yeah.

Speaker 1:46:26 Or two things are true. I'm excited for this next step, and I get that you wish I was staying home.

Jay Shetty 1:46:31 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:46:31 Like, I actually think that phrase, two things are true, it trains our mind-

Jay Shetty 1:46:35 Yeah

Speaker 1:46:36 ... to then say the things. And then the thing that's a small shift, what makes a huge difference, is kind of upgrading the but to an and.

Jay Shetty 1:46:42 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:46:42 I'm excited, but I'm gonna miss you. I'm excited, and I'm gonna miss you, right? Like, and look, I think in the world we see this, like, collapse of our ability to hold two things as true. It's, uh, in, uh, in every small and big way. Which again, is why I think, I think about Good Inside as, as really so important. I think the, one of the most powerful ways we can change the world is how we raise the next generation of kids who will become adults. And to me, that idea of holding oppositional truths at once, and maybe this relates to what people say is mom guilt. Two things are true. I'm going to dinner with my friends tonight, so Person X, your dad, my mom, whoever it is, is gonna put you to bed. Two things are true. I'm excited to see my friends, and I understand you're gonna be upset. Like, I don't have to fix the upset.

Jay Shetty 1:47:29 Mm.

Speaker 1:47:30 I don't have to change my plans. I don't need to get my five-year-old, "But don't you understand? It's really good for me to go out with my friends. I'm a better mom." Again, uh, what is happening there? No, they can just both be true, and when we become better able to, like, verbalize that, we actually teach our kids to be able to tolerate those two things at once as well.

Jay Shetty 1:47:49 Yeah, I'm, I'm so glad you raised that. It's, it's probably the thing I've been focused on the most right now because I love that what F. Scott Fitzgerald wrote, which was, "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas at the same time-"

Speaker 1:48:04 Yep

Jay Shetty 1:48:04 ... "and not, and retain the ability to function."

Speaker 1:48:07 That's... Yep.

Jay Shetty 1:48:08 And, and it's just so well said. And then he goes on to say that, "One should therefore be able to see that things are hard, but that I have the possibility to change them."

Speaker 1:48:18 And.

Jay Shetty 1:48:18 Right? And, yeah. Sorry.

Speaker 1:48:19 [laughs] No.

Jay Shetty 1:48:20 Sorry, and, yeah, and-

Speaker 1:48:21 That, that's exactly it

Jay Shetty 1:48:22 ... yeah, and it's so real, and I'm so glad that you've taken it from parenting into parenting-

Speaker 1:48:26 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:48:27 ... because that is the ability that none of us have today in, in any capacity-

Speaker 1:48:31 And, and I think this is the stuff-

Jay Shetty 1:48:33 ... to be able to do that

Speaker 1:48:33 ... it, it drives us parents crazy. So just to model how you can go from these singular truths-

Jay Shetty 1:48:38 Yeah

Speaker 1:48:39 ... to these d- this duality. Like, I love the heck out of my kids, and many days I miss so many of the moments before I had kids.

Jay Shetty 1:48:48 Yeah.

Speaker 1:48:48 I am so grateful for my kids, and I feel exhausted. And I think what's important is one doesn't have to be more true than the other. They can just both be there. They're like two boxes sitting on a shelf, and it's, it's powerful to start to watch your mind try to collapse them, right? Ugh, good parents don't feel that way. Wait, this might just be a two things are true situation. Maybe I'm allowed to love being a mother and miss my life before I'm a mother. And maybe there's no resolution.

Jay Shetty 1:49:18 Mm.

Speaker 1:49:18 Maybe I just, going back to the bench, maybe I just have to, like-

Jay Shetty 1:49:20 [laughs]

Speaker 1:49:20 ... sit with that.

Jay Shetty 1:49:21 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:49:22 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:49:22 Exactly. I, I, I'm thinking back to all the times I did that to my parents, 'cause we forget.

Speaker 1:49:27 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:49:27 Like, we forget that we did the same things. Like, I find it really funny when I was speaking to a friend or someone, and they're like, "Yeah, you know, my teenager just doesn't get me right now." I'm like, "Did you get your parents when you were a teenager?" Like, I'm like, "I was the worst." And, you know, and, and I think about even being a kid, and I remember my mom had to go out to work in the evening, so she couldn't put me to bed a lot of the time.

Speaker 1:49:47 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:49:47 And I remember crying until she left.

Speaker 1:49:50 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:49:50 Like, I'd hold onto her foot until she walked to the door, and she'd walk out to go to work, and then Dad would put me to bed. And, and, and I still remember it, and it's just-It's so interesting that we forget that we did all of those things, because it feels like such a long time ago, but the reality is that children haven't changed that much.

Speaker 1:50:07 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:50:07 They just have different ways. They might have an iPad instead of a PlayStation versus the TV or whatever it may have been, and it, it's just when you remember that, you can actually empathize with it better and realize your parents also had to do things that wasn't the reason you end up feeling neglected. Like, that wasn't it. Like-

Speaker 1:50:26 Right

Jay Shetty 1:50:26 ... I ne- I don't think I, I don't look back at that memory with my mom and go, "I felt neglected when she left for work" because she explained it to me. I knew where she was going. I knew I was her dad. Like, it was... And it's, and of course, there are people who have very opposite experiences, where there, there could have been neglect and trauma, and I think that's, that's what I wanted to ask you about, is if someone's

Jay Shetty 1:50:46 listening, going, "Look, I love my parents. They weren't perfect, but I, I love them," and, or maybe they actually cause me a lot of pain, but, you know, it is what it is. How do I not be like them?

Speaker 1:50:57 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:50:57 Uh, because that's what I'm most scared of. Because yeah, I am probably carrying some trauma, and maybe I feel positively to them, but maybe there's one of them that I never wanna talk to again, and I-

Speaker 1:51:07 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:51:07 ... but I'm scared of becoming them.

Speaker 1:51:09 A- and I totally understand that fear, and, and what I'd say to that person, uh, first is, uh, like, I hope you give yourself a lot of credit for even just naming that and letting yourself see that. There are things in my parents that I love and I appreciate, and there are things I wanna do really differently. I'm so scared of repeating that pattern. That, that, I would just say that's kind of amazing and brave to even just name that. That's step one. Step two, I'd actually just wanna learn more. Tell me more. What, what don't you wanna be like? Well, I would have never talked to my parent when I was in a tricky situation. I felt like my parents were just controlling, judgmental. Like, I'd wanna get more specific, right? Okay, so what I think is helpful to know, again, is parenting is like a language, right? And if you were brought up in English, that's right, and you want to speak a little English, but also Mandarin, your first instinct with your kid, even as you're learning Mandarin, is going to be English. It just is, especially in stressful moments.

Jay Shetty 1:52:06 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:52:07 And, and that's okay. That doesn't mean you're failing. It just means probably gotta go back to those Mandarin lessons-

Jay Shetty 1:52:12 Yeah

Speaker 1:52:12 ... and you go repair, and you keep going. So I just also want people to know, that's, that's what change looks like. No one goes and does a complete 180.

Jay Shetty 1:52:20 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:52:20 But people underestimate, if you think about your family lineage like a ship, and it's going toward a certain destination, you're like, "I don't wanna go there," even a small shift in the ocean leads to a dramatically different destination.

Jay Shetty 1:52:33 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:52:34 Right? And that's what cycle breaking is. And then I think we work on one thing at a time. Okay, let's say it's, "I really want my kid to be the kind of kid who can come to me. Stakes are even higher now. There's stuff on TikTok. It's sex, drugs. I want my kid to come to me. I would have never with my parent. It still haunts me, things that happened because I didn't or they yelled at me." Great. I'd be like, "Okay, well, how old's your kid now?" "Five." "Okay, let's start building that." Because I think that's a topic that comes up a lot, the idea that whether or not our teen comes to us in tricky moments is something that, like, magically starts in the teenage years-

Jay Shetty 1:53:08 Yeah

Speaker 1:53:08 ... as if there's no history to it.

Jay Shetty 1:53:10 Yeah.

Speaker 1:53:11 Right? So let's think about how you respond when your kid hits. Let's think about what happens, ooh, you just got a email from school that your kid stole a truck from his friend's cubby. These things seem very small compared to sex and drugs and rock and roll, but in a way, they're the same circuit.

Jay Shetty 1:53:28 Mm.

Speaker 1:53:28 I did something I know you're not gonna approve of. Frankly, I did something even I feel shameful about.

Jay Shetty 1:53:35 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:53:35 How do we deal with that in this family? Now, what do I think that parent's first instinct is gonna be? What do you think?

Jay Shetty 1:53:43 Yeah, like, "Oh my God, I can't believe you stole the truck. What's wrong with you?" Like-

Speaker 1:53:46 What, exact-

Jay Shetty 1:53:47 Yeah

Speaker 1:53:47 ... "What's wrong with you?"

Jay Shetty 1:53:47 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:53:47 "Go to your room. And by the way, when you go to your room, I took away all your trucks."

Jay Shetty 1:53:51 [laughs]

Speaker 1:53:51 Like, I don't know. By the way, I get... it's just what we-

Jay Shetty 1:53:53 Yeah

Speaker 1:53:53 ... we, like, just come up with this stuff because it's been so many generations-

Jay Shetty 1:53:57 Yeah

Speaker 1:53:57 ... even though it's laughable. Like, why would that help my kid?

Jay Shetty 1:54:00 Yeah.

Speaker 1:54:00 But we all have that instinct. I do too. But if you know you're gonna have that instinct, you're more prepared, and you might, and this is where I would tell parents, like, if you thought of it like a new language, you would never expect yourself to learn Mandarin-

Jay Shetty 1:54:14 Mm

Speaker 1:54:14 ... just because you wanted to learn Mandarin.

Jay Shetty 1:54:16 Yeah.

Speaker 1:54:16 You, you, like, frankly, I don't know, you'd probably just download Duolingo. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:54:19 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:54:19 I don't know. And you'd be like, "I'm gonna practice as many days as I can. If I miss my streak, it's okay. I'm gonna get back on," and that, that's what I feel like good insight is. It is a new language. So what does that mean? First, you have to learn how to regulate your own emotions. You're probably telling yourself the story, "My kid's stealing trucks at age four, they're gonna be in jail by age 19. I have a sociopath." That is what you do as a parent.

Jay Shetty 1:54:37 Yeah.

Speaker 1:54:37 The number of times you start thinking your kid's a sociopath when really they're just a good kid having a hard time is way too many to count. But let's do that. So what do I say to myself? What is the mantra? Where do I go? Do I have a support group? Do I have a friend to text? Do I have a little chat bot that helps me these day and age, right? That's what we have, right, too. Okay, there's that. Then I'm gonna remember we're on the same team. Then I'm gonna remember a little of that sick joy, which is true there, too. Hold on a second. If I know my kid sees things that they want and doesn't yet have the impulse control to not take them, if I can help my kid with that at age four, do you know how much better that is than learning at age-

Jay Shetty 1:55:16 Absolutely

Speaker 1:55:16 ... 14-

Jay Shetty 1:55:17 Absolutely

Speaker 1:55:17 ... or 44? Like, th- then, then things get bad.

Jay Shetty 1:55:21 Yeah.

Speaker 1:55:21 We all have an urge to take things that we want.

Jay Shetty 1:55:23 Stakes, yeah.

Speaker 1:55:24 Right. So you can actually, okay, this is a good thing, same team. And then there's some, maybe I'm gonna get curious. Yeah, that would've been nice if my parents were curious. Okay. Then, and this is just a rule I have for any relationship, don't ask anybody a question you know the answer to.

Jay Shetty 1:55:37 Yeah.

Speaker 1:55:37 It's not a question.

Jay Shetty 1:55:38 That's a great-

Speaker 1:55:39 It's an accusation with a question mark. "Did you take anything from the cubby today?" You're just setting yourself up to be an adversary.

Jay Shetty 1:55:47 Yeah.

Speaker 1:55:48 Say the truth, "I heard what happened." This is a good line, right? "You're a good kid. Made a bad decision. That's okay. You're not in trouble. My job is to help understand and help you through it." This actually happened with my kid, okay? One of my kids.You know, he saw something he wanted, and you know what? A lot of us when we see things we want, we wish it was ours. And, and so we talked about it, we did this, and then we did a lot of other things. I really do take coaching, I think, to the next level.

Jay Shetty 1:56:15 Yeah.

Speaker 1:56:15 Like, if you're... And I always go back to sports 'cause I'm a sports person, too. But if you are a basketball coach, you can sit down some kids and teach them how to make a layup. But we all know you then actually have to get in the gym and, like, do it.

Jay Shetty 1:56:29 Yeah.

Speaker 1:56:29 You can't just mentally learn it.

Jay Shetty 1:56:31 No.

Speaker 1:56:31 The body movements matter. So one of the things I did with my son in this example is I was like, after, not all on the same day, "We're gonna play a game. I'm gonna have a truck, and I'm gonna put it somewhere and I'm gonna walk away, and I want you to see it, and let's practice this. You're gonna say to yourself, 'I really want that.' And then we're gonna practice the thing we just talked about. 'This stinks, but it's not mine.'" Some, like, mini mantra. Literally a tool. And I'm gonna actually practice that, and then I'll... Some kids are resistant, so I'll reverse it. "Okay, I'll be you." "Okay. Oh, I want that truck. Maybe if I take it, nobody will notice, and then it'll be mine, and then it'll just be my little truck and it's all gonna be okay. Wait, Becky, I want it. This stinks, but I can deal with it." It's actually amazing when you give kids little mantras, little alternative behaviors. And I know it sounds... I hear Pounce's voice, I do-

Jay Shetty 1:57:29 [laughs]

Speaker 1:57:29 ... being like, "That takes a lot of time."

Jay Shetty 1:57:30 Yeah.

Speaker 1:57:31 I hear that, but in life I think we either spend time preparing or reacting.

Jay Shetty 1:57:36 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1:57:36 And however you spend time naturally, you just don't account for it as time. You know how much time it takes to be mad at your kid all day, how much time it takes when you stay up at bed feeling so kind of ashamed of how the day went, how much ti- I- those things take time, too. I promise you these little interventions can take 45 seconds. Again, my son, we're not having some in-depth conversation.

Jay Shetty 1:57:56 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:57:56 It's just a thing and we move on. But, um-

Jay Shetty 1:57:58 And then they ask you, "Can I have a snack?" Like, it- it-

Speaker 1:58:00 And, and then they literally always end with, "Can I have pretzels now?"

Jay Shetty 1:58:02 Yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 1:58:02 And you're like, "I guess." They're saturated. But regulate your own emotions. Remember you're on the same team. It's good news when you see bad behavior when they're young, because they're always younger than they are tomorrow.

Jay Shetty 1:58:13 Mm.

Speaker 1:58:13 And if you see it, again, as a feeling, an urge gap with the skills, the answer becomes, "I can be a coach." Teach skills, practice skills here and there, and then often what's amazing is not only does behavior change, it doesn't change from fear.

Jay Shetty 1:58:28 Mm.

Speaker 1:58:28 'Cause when behavior changes from fear, "I'm just so scared of my parent," that then leads to becoming-

Jay Shetty 1:58:34 Yeah

Speaker 1:58:34 ... a teen. Y- you know, when you're a teen, you don't care about the timeouts. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:58:39 [laughs]

Speaker 1:58:39 You don't care about your kids', you, you don't care about your parents' stickers.

Jay Shetty 1:58:41 Yeah.

Speaker 1:58:42 You're just not really having a relationship with them-

Jay Shetty 1:58:44 Yeah

Speaker 1:58:44 ... and you're hiding things from them.

Jay Shetty 1:58:46 Yeah. Well said. Uh, Becky, you-

Speaker 1:58:51 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:58:51 ... were very clear that there's no such thing as a perfect parent, but you are a perfect coach.

Speaker 1:58:55 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:58:55 And your advice and insight is, this has been by far my favorite conversation on parenting, and I've had such a great time learning from you today. I've feel like I've had mind-blowing moments, I've had affirmations on things that I already believed were true, I've had clarifications, I've had extensions of things that I thought I understood, but you've expanded my mind, and I think everyone at home who's listening and watching or on the road would feel the same way. And so I hope everyone who's listening or watching, I hope you go and check out the app, Good Inside. Check out the platform. Go and grab a copy of the book. Follow Becky online if you don't already. Her Instagram and social media is full of great insights that are really simply and succinctly put for you to start making real change. And at the same time, I really hope that you'll tag both of us and share the insights and the thoughts that have resonated with you today, that you're putting into action, that you're trying out. And whether you got the reaction you wanted or not, the win that you had of actually communicating effectively, of following some of these scripts and making them your own and putting them into your own language and words with your kids, uh, I really hope this helps you build the child and the life and the relationship that you're looking for with them. And Becky, I'm just so grateful to you for having your time and energy to do this with me.

Speaker 2:00:08 Thank you.

Jay Shetty 2:00:08 And I had such a great time, truly.

Speaker 2:00:09 I had such a great time, too. Hope, you know, it's not too long till I see you again.

Jay Shetty 2:00:12 Yeah, you have to come back.

Speaker 2:00:13 I will.

Jay Shetty 2:00:13 I have so much more I need to talk to you about. We just spoke for two hours.

Speaker 2:00:16 Oh, was it? [laughs]

Jay Shetty 2:00:17 And I've, and I could literally talk to you for another two hours, but I'm being mindful of time. But I would love for you to come back, uh, because I feel like there's so much more for us to uncover.

Speaker 2:00:25 I am all in.

Jay Shetty 2:00:26 I'm so grateful. Thank you so much. If you loved this episode, you'll love my interview with Dr. Gabor Maté on understanding your trauma and how to heal emotional wounds to start moving on from the past.

2:00:39 Everything in nature grows only where it's vulnerable. So a, a tree doesn't grow where it's hard and thick, does it? It grows where it's soft and green and vulnerable