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ESTHER PEREL: The Hard Truth! Love Can’t Exist Without This

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Esther PerelguestJay Shettyhost
May 4, 20261h 27mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 3:29

    Why Gen Z is dating less: the loss of free play and in-person social practice

    1. EP

      We put the focus on you choosing bad people, you always fall in love with the wrong guy. What does it say about you?

    2. JS

      [instrumental music] What do you think about people having a list of everything they want in a person?

    3. EP

      Love will laugh at you.

    4. JS

      Is love enough?

    5. EP

      No.

    6. JS

      Should love be hard?

    7. EP

      There is no love story that isn't overcoming obstacles. Attraction plus obstacle equals excitement, love, desire. [instrumental music]

    8. JS

      Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. Today, I'm joined by one of the most influential voices on love and relationships in the entire world, Esther Perel. Esther is a renowned psychotherapist and the mind behind the groundbreaking book, Mating in Captivity. And as the book celebrates its 20th anniversary, we explore why Esther's insights on love, desire, and intimacy remain just as true today. Please welcome back to the podcast one of my favorite guests, and yours, Esther Perel. Esther, it is so great to have you back.

    9. EP

      It's really nice to be back.

    10. JS

      Our last conversation was super viral, millions of views. People loved seeing us together. They loved hearing your direct, no BS, breaking down this therapy TikTok language that we constantly hear. And today, I really wanted to dive into what I believe is the need of the hour, what I believe is the urgent, imminent challenge that we're facing right now. Gen Z is dating significantly less than other generations. What has changed?

    11. EP

      I ask a question, uh, in all my audiences at this moment, "Did you grow up playing freely on the street?"

    12. JS

      Mm.

    13. EP

      The parents of Gen Z will raise their hands and say, "We did." And then I ask, "Do your children or do you know children who are playing freely on the street?" And you get a few hands. That's it. That's the Gen Z. If you don't play freely on the street, you basically are missing out on an entire ground for social negotiation, where you learn to play together, to make rules, to break rules, to have wars, to make peace, to create alliances, to make up. The whole thing. If you don't practice those muscles, where you come up to strangers and you ask them to play with you, and then you meet somebody else, and then you join people together, you really are practicing relationships. All of that precedes dating. If you don't have that, then dating becomes the, the first time that you have to actually learn to speak to someone, God forbid if it's even in person, and look into their eyes and look at their body, because so much of our life at this point is completely disembodied and we don't ever see people move.

    14. JS

      Wow, never even thought of that.

    15. EP

      So dating becomes this Olympus that you have to climb, this whole mountain, and it's very anxiety-provoking, and that is one of the main things. So when we say Gen Z doesn't date as much, Gen Z doesn't socialize in person, Gen Z doesn't have that many parties, what a waste. What a pity to not have dance parties and, and just hang together. Um, it's not that they don't socialize, but it's a different kind of socialize. "I spoke to so and so" means I texted them.

    16. JS

      Mm.

  2. 3:29 – 6:53

    Disembodied connection: why screens exhaust us and weaken bonding

    1. EP

      No, I didn't speak. I didn't hear the voice. If you don't hear the voice, you're missing out on the entire oxytocin attachment hormone that gets produced while you're hearing the voice. The voice is the first thing you hear when you are in utero. So you say you spoke, but you didn't. You connected, you had contact. And at every level, you see an atrophy of the social skills, which creates a real sense of bracing myself, "I'm going out to date," which I don't like because it's not fun.

    2. JS

      You're so right, and you're opening up my mind to so many different things that I don't think we're thinking about. This idea of being disembodied, we're only looking at FaceTime.

    3. EP

      And not just that. Now I look in your eyes, you look in my eyes, and we have mirror neurons firing at each other. We are really connecting. Voice, sight, b- breath, I mean, the, the, all the senses are involved. On Zoom or on, on any screen, we think we're looking at the other, but we actually are not making eye contact.

    4. JS

      Mm.

    5. EP

      So this-

    6. JS

      That's so true

    7. EP

      ... pseudo experience, as if I am looking at you and you're looking at me, but in fact we don't, means that neurologically none of this is actually happening.

    8. JS

      Wow. Yeah, you're so right, and most of us on Zoom are just looking at ourselves. [laughs]

    9. EP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    10. JS

      I've tried to hide myself from you because I just realized that you're just looking at yourself and you're looking at your reflection so much. We're, we're overexposed to our own reflection-

    11. EP

      Yes

    12. JS

      ... which is why we're so critical of ourselves and we're so eval- we're evaluating and analyzing ourselves all the time. But you're absolutely right that even if you look at someone else through a screen, you're not making the quality of contact we feel.

    13. EP

      No, you don't.

    14. JS

      And there's a reason I, I actually feel that. I feel exhausted on Zooms and exhausted on digital contact.

    15. EP

      That is a part of that, is because the actual connect- contact, which is soothing, eye-to-eye contact and when you are in a safe situation, is actually soothing. It regulates you. When it is as if, but not really, and nothing really happens up there, then you are exhausted. And you know what it means to look at yourself the whole day? It's like the, the, the, the enshrinement of narci- narcissism.

    16. JS

      [laughs] Absolutely.

    17. EP

      I mean, look, here, Narcissus, he used to look at himself in the, in the water and look at his reflection the whole time.

    18. JS

      [laughs] And, and it's the same as what you're saying with the lack of contact, where you say, "Oh, yeah, I spoke to so and so," or, "I heard from them." And you're so right that we're missing out on these very analog behaviors that our body's craving, our mind is craving, and we're not really in touch. I read this study that said 45% of men aged 16 to 25 today have never approached a woman in public. And-I was like, in my life growing up-

    19. EP

      Age?

    20. JS

      16 to 25, 45% of men age 16 to 25 who are-

    21. EP

      Yep

    22. JS

      ... uh, assuming they're heterosexual in this-

    23. EP

      Yep

    24. JS

      ... study, they have not approached a woman face to face in public to ask them out, to create a connection. And I was thinking, I grew up at a time where all we did was have to pluck up the courage to walk over to a woman in a bar-

    25. EP

      Right, right

    26. JS

      ... at the mall, wherever it was, to just say-

    27. EP

      "You look cute"

    28. JS

      ... "Hey, you're cute," or like, "Hey, can I get your number? Hey, can I..." Whatever it was. And I remember how stressful that was as a man, so I realize that there's stress. But today, do you think it's a fear of rejection? Do you think it's a lack of social skills, as you're mentioning? Where's that coming from?

  3. 6:53 – 10:14

    A contactless world and delayed adolescence: how friction got removed

    1. EP

      So I think there's a, a number of different things, uh, going on at the same time. Continuing with less social interaction is also the fact that we're more and more living in a contactless world. You don't have to leave your house for a lot of things that, you know... It's not just you would come up to the girl and start talking to her. Since the pandemic, we learned we didn't have to leave the house to go to school, and the, and the 18 to 25-year-old is the generation that went to school during the pandemic. So that's the first thing, is a complete cutoff of the socialized world. You don't have to leave your house to work, to shop, to eat, to exercise. Contactless. You can have everything delivered without having to even thank the person who is bringing the food. At every level, we have tried to remove contact and friction.

    2. JS

      Mm.

    3. EP

      Coming up to talk to a girl is friction. You don't know. There is... You fantasize, you know. You... [laughs] I'm thinking of a story that a friend of mine just told me. When he was sitting on a train, and for five hours he saw this girl, and he just was thinking, "I would love to go and c- talk to her," but he couldn't muster the courage to go speak with her. Finally, after five hours, he gets up, he goes, he talks, and for the rest, they sp- uh, spend a week traveling together in Europe. And then he tells me, "If I was m-," today, uh, f- he's a father of a Gen Z, "If I would be spending my five hours writing to my AI companion, what should I say? I'm anxious. I don't know how to go." He would have basically spent his time trying to regulate his nervous system-

    4. JS

      [laughs]

    5. EP

      ... and try to calm down, but he would never have... He would have talked to the, to his AI-

    6. JS

      [laughs]

    7. EP

      ... rather than to the girl.

    8. JS

      Yeah.

    9. EP

      And he would have talked to the AI about how hard it is to go and meet this girl, and he would never have traveled with her for the week.

    10. JS

      Yeah.

    11. EP

      And this removing of the friction, so what is, to me, the killer of desire. We'll come back to that.

    12. JS

      Mm.

    13. EP

      But what happens in when, in your statistic, is 18 to 25. In your time, you basically started this whole process of meeting girls or m- boys meeting boys, girls meeting girls, in your teens.

    14. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    15. EP

      So 15, 16-

    16. JS

      Mm-hmm

    17. EP

      ... you were practicing.

    18. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    19. EP

      You were falling in love. You had crushes. You dealt with rejection. You rejected others. It went both ways, et cetera. Most Gen Z today start their first re- experiences around 24, 26.

    20. JS

      Wow.

    21. EP

      So the whole thing is delayed by 10 years.

    22. JS

      Yeah.

    23. EP

      But when you meet at 24 or 25 for the first time, you often meet with the lack of experience of the 15-year-old.

    24. JS

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

    25. EP

      You haven't had that slow build up, you know, and you didn't have sex the first time necessarily either. But first you spoke, then you hung, then you'd, you'd, you'd spend the day together, then you met, you brought them to your friends. You had an entire-

    26. JS

      Mm

    27. EP

      ... process of engagement-

    28. JS

      Mm-hmm

    29. EP

      ... that's made you more and more comfortable each time.

    30. JS

      Mm.

  4. 10:14 – 12:22

    Hyperconnectivity vs real connection: modern loneliness and the need for depth

    1. JS

      Mm-hmm. I feel like we're living at a time where conversations about therapy, about our emotions, about love, online you see them everywhere. Everyone's talking about it.

    2. EP

      Yeah.

    3. JS

      Everyone's thinking about it. But then we don't translate it into real life. We're more disconnected than ever. So talk to me about that dichotomy.

    4. EP

      I think that we are living a fantastic contradiction. We've never been more connected, and we have never been more disconnected. Modern loneliness masks itself as hyperconnectivity. So you think you're talking-

    5. JS

      Oh, yeah

    6. EP

      ... to people, and I would say even more like this. Modern loneliness is not about not having people. It's about the lack of depth.

    7. JS

      Mm.

    8. EP

      It doesn't replace, to have these conversations online. And in fact, they're often done in nine seconds increments.

    9. JS

      Mm.

    10. EP

      That is not really the time needed to address major existential questions.

    11. JS

      Mm.

    12. EP

      See, if you don't see the person you're talking to, you can express yourself in all kinds of uncivilized way [laughs] because there is no consequences.

    13. JS

      Mm.

    14. EP

      So that contradiction of, of what does it mean to really connect, and what are the conditions necessary, what... And that is back to this issue of friction because f- it means that you practice disagreement, frustration, being misunderstood, understanding others, truly listening, listening again because you thought you got it, but you didn't really 'cause you didn't listen till the end 'cause half the time when we listen, we're busy with our rebuttal.

    15. JS

      Mm.

    16. EP

      That's a different degree of connection.

    17. JS

      Yeah.

    18. EP

      Ask a question when you, somebody tells you something. Before you draw a conclusion about what they're saying, ask another question. Listen really. Don't jump for advice because you are the one, you are not the one who's gonna live with the consequences of the advice that you're giving. So look at things in context. Don't just take out one thing like that. And all of that is the difference between our conversation and how this can appear when we go online.

  5. 12:22 – 14:32

    Privacy, surveillance, and boundary irony: why trust feels harder now

    1. JS

      I think one of the biggest things that you're sharing that's kind of I'm becoming aware of in our conversation is that a reason why we're scared to message and reply is also because everything's documented today. So there's a feeling of like, if I send something to you and it makes me look stupid, you're gonna send it to all your friends. If you share something with me and I wanna pass it on to someone, it takes one click, and all of a sudden it's on the internet. And so there's this genuine fear of not only am I being evaluated by this person-

    2. EP

      Yeah

    3. JS

      ... but I'm potentially being evaluated by their entire circle.

    4. EP

      Do you see the irony here? We have never talked more about boundaries in relationships as today, at a time when people are often acting without any boundaries and sharing the most personal, profound things that people give them in confidence with others. The leakages, the system of sharing and spreading without necessarily asking and ridiculing and judging and exposing and all of that is happening at the same time as people are talking constantly about safety and boundaries and protection.

    5. JS

      Yeah, yeah.

    6. EP

      It's really interesting, no?

    7. JS

      Yeah, it's, it's, it's fasci- exactly. It's absolutely fascinating because-

    8. EP

      There's no privacy

    9. JS

      ... there's no privacy.

    10. EP

      There's no privacy.

    11. JS

      There's no safety.

    12. EP

      So there's no safety, and it's no longer even transparency because it, transparency means we, we speak out openly about things. This is really, you are basically speaking with surveillance. You are constantly watching, how are people going, what are people gonna do with what you're saying? How are they going to twist your privacy, your private life, your, your deepest feelings, and, and, and how they can snitch it and put it together and reinterpret it. That leaves people suspicious, fearful, actually disconnected, more lonely, constantly wondering about, "Who can I trust? What is trust?" And then hoping that by having more boundaries they can fortify all of this. But in fact, the world doesn't have the boundaries.

  6. 14:32 – 17:42

    Offline presence and ‘ambiguous loss’: the loneliness of distracted togetherness

    1. JS

      So how does anyone in this moment even think about building connection?

    2. EP

      Offline. Go offline. A connection is an encounter, and it's an encounter with an other, and that otherness is the mystery of relationships, that curiosity that you bring to discovering someone. We've met a few times, but we don't know each other, and I'm intrigued by you, and I'm curious where you're gonna take us. Where is this conversation gonna go? What are you gonna ask? What am, what I'm saying is interesting to you? I'm not busy here thinking, "Does Jay like what I'm saying? Is Jay thinking that I'm smart? Is Jay thinking I'm stupid? Is Jay waiting to bait me with something?" I'm with you. I'm present, and that's very different from I'm here.

    3. JS

      Hmm.

    4. EP

      And I feel your presence with me. That's not just you're here. You know, much of the time these days, e- even if we are sitting together, I ask, this is a question I love to ask in an audience, say, "How many of you spend a lot of time of the day on your laptop?"

    5. JS

      [laughs]

    6. EP

      On front of a screen, whatever it is, and all you want is to finally go home and get rid of the screen. But then you get home, and you're so tired that what you do is you watch TV. And then while you're watching TV, you're also scrolling on your phone. And then you turn around, and there is someone sometimes sitting right next to you who's doing the exact same thing. And then at some point, someone says something actually quite meaningful, and then you have this other person responding with that most fantastic, "Uh-huh."

    7. JS

      [laughs]

    8. EP

      "Uh-huh." And you know that digital lag means they're there, but they're not really listening.

    9. JS

      Hmm.

    10. EP

      And in that moment, you experience a unique kind of loneliness. It's the loneliness that says, "Are you here, or are you not?"

    11. JS

      Hmm.

    12. EP

      We call it, in my work, ambiguous loss. Have you ever heard that term?

    13. JS

      No, I haven't.

    14. EP

      Ambiguous loss is a term that was coined by psychologist Pauline Boss when she was talking about situations where you can't resolve the mourning. Like, if you are with someone who has Alzheimer or dementia, they are physically in front of you, but they are emotionally or psychologically gone.

    15. JS

      Hmm.

    16. EP

      If they have been deployed or there is abduction or there are miscarriages, they are physically gone, but they are emotionally very, very present. And in both situations, you don't know, are you here, or are you not? Modern loneliness has that element on a daily basis, where I don't know if you're here. It's like we've come to accept distracted attention as if it is enough, and it's not. And all of those situations make us feel like I'm putting out such efforts, and I feel exhausted-

    17. JS

      Hmm

    18. EP

      ... because it's not really coming back.

    19. JS

      Yeah. It's, it's so real, and I think that's how a lot of people feel today, that they're saying, "I wanna find love." We all want connection, but then the action to get it, as you said, which, which requires a bit of friction, which requires a bit of discomfort-

  7. 17:42 – 18:51

    Obstacles fuel desire: why frictionless love kills the plot

    1. EP

      There is no love story that isn't organized around overcoming obstacles.

    2. JS

      Right.

    3. EP

      The greatest love stories have an obstacle that you have to... They almost didn't gonna meet again. They, they, they never asked each other's names. The parents didn't want them to be together. The age difference was too big. What, you need an obstacle.

    4. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. EP

      Attraction plus obstacle equals excitement, love, desire. It is that combination.

    6. JS

      Right. So the obstacle is the way.

    7. EP

      The obstacle is what builds the plot, what heightens the intensity, what intensifies the love.

    8. JS

      Hmm.

    9. EP

      And what we want in the frictionless reality isA love, like a permanent state of enthusiasm.

    10. JS

      Mm.

    11. EP

      And love is not a permanent state of enthusiasm. Love is not about finding people who agree with you and who like the same things as you. Love is actually dis- being discovered by someone from whom you're different. It doesn't match algorithmic perfections.

    12. JS

      Mm. Yeah, I, I'm so glad you said that. I've, I often say to people that my wife and I couldn't be more opposite as people.

    13. EP

      Yeah.

  8. 18:51 – 22:51

    The skills of relating: curiosity and the ‘relational verbs’

    1. JS

      And we actually like very different things. Our idea of an ideal Sunday or a Saturday is completely different, but those aren't the things that make the relationship good or bad. They're not the... So if someone said to you today, Esther, "What skill should I be developing to be better at love and connection?" What would you encourage them to pursue?

    2. EP

      Skill number one, curiosity.

    3. JS

      Of the other person.

    4. EP

      Of the other person. Curiosity. It lo- it's a discovery. It's a journey. It's an exploration of difference. That is one of the things that love... It, it is that loving of that difference that is at the core of the experience. Humor, so that you don't take yourself too seriously, and you understand that, um, half the things are not worth fighting for.

    5. JS

      Yeah, yeah.

    6. EP

      That it doesn't really matter, that from one to 10, most things are a two or a three. And if you live with from one to 10, everything is a nine, then you need to have some work to do. [laughs]

    7. JS

      Mm.

    8. EP

      There are seven verbs I really love to, to... If I think what does one need to learn? To ask. They're not in order of importance. How good are you at asking?

    9. JS

      For what you want and need.

    10. EP

      For what you want, for what you need. Asking is a relational verb that you learn to conjugate. I think in verbs because I speak multiple languages, and every time I learn a new one, I kind of look at what are the key verbs you need to have to build the structure of the language so that you can communicate. Are you good at asking? Do you know what to ask for? Do you believe that you're worthy of being given to what it is you're asking for, that people will respond to you? Do you know to be clear about your expectations? Asking is about expectation. Giving. How is your giving? Do you experience generosity? Do you enjoy the giving, or do you give in order to not owe anything to people?

    11. JS

      Mm.

    12. EP

      Do you give so you don't have to feel guilty? Do you give to square, you know, and even out what they gave you? But giving is amazing. It's an amazing feeling, and it's an amazing experience in relationships. Receiving. How good are you at receiving? It's probably the most vulnerable of all the verbs, to be given to, because it speaks to your sense of self-worth, to how much you feel deserving, to experience closeness, pleasure, connection, intimacy, you know, receiving. Um, it, it, it tells a world about you. Sharing. Can you think about another? You and your wife have a very different idea about what to do on Saturday morning. How do you share that difference? And it's not we come to the middle, and we compromise.

    13. JS

      No, it's definitely not. [laughs]

    14. EP

      It's how do you inc- integrate the various things that are important to each of you, play them out in different ways, and every person feels acknowledged and recognized and valued. Imagination. Imagination is the ability to dream, to imagine a future, to project yourself ahead, to build a life project. Refusing. Can you say no? Is it a relationship where people can comfortably say no?

    15. JS

      Mm.

    16. EP

      Because if you can't say yes, you can't say no, but saying no is essential, and not indirect and not with coercive measures, [laughs] just simply, "I prefer not." Knowing that when you say no, the other person may not like it, and they are entitled not to like it like you are entitled not to want it.

    17. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    18. EP

      These two shall coexist. These probably are the primary verbs. Add to that curiosity and all that because they are relational verbs. You can't do them just alone.

    19. JS

      Yeah.

    20. EP

      I mean, yeah, you can give to yourself-

    21. JS

      [laughs]

    22. EP

      ... and you can receive from that giving. But essentially, they practice with you how to relate to another person and how to receive the relatedness of others on you.

    23. JS

      Yes. Yes, so well said. So well said. I love those. I hope everyone's gonna listen back to that because those verbs make it just feel... It makes it feel active and alive, and I think dating today feels very either transactional or checking. Like, our mind is lost.

  9. 22:51 – 25:25

    From checklists to serendipity: why first dates feel like job interviews

    1. EP

      Many first dates are like job interviews.

    2. JS

      Yes, exactly. Yeah.

    3. EP

      It's really not fun. I mean, fun is the word that has to... You know, at the end of a date, you have to be intrigued. You g- You, you need to want more, not you need to be evaluating your checklist.

    4. JS

      Mm.

    5. EP

      There's different story.

    6. JS

      Yeah.

    7. EP

      That's the, the story of, of, of how you build, how you build love. It's not something you instant... You know, you can't sit there, ask questions, then look here and hope that you feel some butterflies and some tingling and say, "Nah, nothing's happening. Um, that's not, I'm not feeling it. Um, okay, uh, we've had the coffee. I don't want to really have that lunch. I'm just gonna..." No.

    8. JS

      Yeah. Yeah, so true.

    9. EP

      But turn around. Somebody's standing in line. Turn around at the counter. Turn around in front of the barista. There is people around you all the time. Every stranger is a potential best friend or person that you could fall in love with, and you have no idea. But you've got to remain open to serendipity.

    10. JS

      Yeah, and now we feel so weird when we're in public and alone that we pick up our phone because we'd rather not make eye contact. Like, it almost feels cringe or weird-

    11. EP

      Yes

    12. JS

      ... to make eye contact-

    13. EP

      Yes

    14. JS

      ... with someone because you're scared of them looking at you, in one sense, or you're scared of looking at them because we're not as exposed to it, and so we'd rather just take out our phone because it's a easier way to wait in a line.

    15. EP

      That's social [laughs] ... do, these things are interconnected. If you don't socialize properly, you also feel more lonely, and if you feel more lonely, you become more isolated. You become more isolated, you become more anxious. You become more anxious, you make sure never to leave your phone when you're in an elevator. You become more anxious, you become more depressed. This is like a, a big of a chain of events that take us down.

    16. JS

      Yeah. If you're like me, you spend a lot of time on your feet, moving, traveling, airports, hikes, whatever it may be, and I've been looking for an incredible running shoe for quite some time, and I have found it. Altra running shoes are fantastic. They're super comfortable. They're easy to wear. They're light. And the truth is, they're not just running shoes. They're a perfect shoe for walking, for hiking, any pace, any level. Whether you're a beginner or a vet, the fit feels right from the first

  10. 25:25 – 31:20

    Power, purpose, and belonging: responding to the ‘obey’ statistic

    1. JS

      step. So maybe it's time to walk a mile in these shoes and get them for someone you love. Find your Altra fit at altrarunning.com and use the code PURPOSE10 for 10% off. That's A-L-T-R-A running.com. Stay out there. One more statistic of Gen Z that blew my mind that I saw, I just read this two days ago. I read that one-third of Gen Z men think a wife should obey her husband, and I read that and I was just like, "Wow." Like, I, I just couldn't believe that that was kind of almost circling back-

    2. EP

      Mm-hmm

    3. JS

      ... into the zeitgeist. And I wanted to ask you, why is that? I know you talk so much about power. I know you talk so much about influence in relationships and agency. Like, how are we there again?

    4. EP

      Again. My first thought was when you just said this, I said, "Ask yourself, every person who thinks this, would you say that to your mother?"

    5. JS

      Mm.

    6. EP

      "My mother should listen to my father's commands, comply, and obey." Would you have wanted that? Because many people probably would say no.

    7. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    8. EP

      You know, it's easy to spout these kind of ideas in the abstract. Once you bring it back to the people that raised you, you may actually have wished that a number of your mothers had stood up-

    9. JS

      Mm-hmm

    10. EP

      ... to your fathers or to whoever, to your stepfathers even more so often. So I think we have to be very careful with these kind of, uh, things. What are you trying to say? That you have lost authority? That you feel that you are being devalued, and that the only way you know you have power is if there's someone who submits to your power? How about instead of thinking about power over somebody, you think about power to, with somebody.

    11. JS

      Mm.

    12. EP

      That's generative power. That's power that creates something, that invites the collaboration of others rather than the oppression of others. This is true in your intimate relationships, and this is true in society.

    13. JS

      Mm. Yeah, that power with is such a fascinating concept because I think for so long, I guess there's been a lot of comparison. Like you're saying, a lot of people are feeling powerless or feeling like they don't have agency or they don't have influence and control, and then you find the easiest way to exert that control, which naturally becomes the people that are closest to you. We almost need to find our significance again in a way because if we can only find our significance through controlling someone else, then that means we don't feel a sense of significance in our own being.

    14. EP

      Or that we feel-

    15. JS

      And worse-

    16. EP

      ... powerless

    17. JS

      ... or that we feel powerless.

    18. EP

      You know, that-

    19. JS

      Where should our power come from? If we wanna love with and share power with, where do we find power and strength from?

    20. EP

      I think you have the perfect title on the podcast, On Purpose.

    21. JS

      Mm.

    22. EP

      Purpose is power. It gives meaning to things. It gives a reason for why you do things rather than just action for its own sake. It has symbolism to it. It has ritual to it. It elevates it. It links it to b- a bigger story than just you. You know? You belong to a something bigger, uh, to a tradition, to a religion, to a group, to a community, to like-minded, uh, thinkers. I mean, it is that, that image. It makes it... Because we are very, we as a one unit, we are big, but we are also very, very small unit. So the sense of belonging, the sense of recognition, the sense of trust, and the sense of resilience, which are four major dimensions of relational intelligence.

    23. JS

      Repeat those again.

    24. EP

      Trust, belonging, recognition, and collective resilience.

    25. JS

      That's what we're trying to build with that person.

    26. EP

      Yes, and that's where power lies. These together, in every form of interaction, give you a sense of power, power in, uh, as equated with agency, the ability to affect your reality, to change things, to create things, to make meaningful shifts, to influence others, to leave impact, to have legacy, to feel that you matter. So why is this so significant? Because if modern loneliness is this kind of disconnect, then you live with the feeling that you don't really exist inside others, which is probably one of the most important ways we feel not lonely.

    27. JS

      Mm.

    28. EP

      And the way this starts is when we are little babies, at some point, we throw the toy on the floor. And when we throw the toy, somebody picks it up, we look at it, and we throw it again, and then again, and then again, and we understand something that is at the core of what helps us not feel lonely and alone, that even while I don't see you, you still exist.

    29. JS

      Mm.

    30. EP

      Then I start to play peekaboo with you, and peekaboo means you don't see me, you don't see me. Here I am!I exist even when I don't see you and I, and you don't see me, and so do you. And that is what allows me to go out into the world and know that I won't be forgotten, know that I, you will come look for me. That's why we play hide and seek. It's the most incredible game. There is no greater thrill than to hide and to know that somebody's looking for you, but there's no greater terror than to feel that others gave up on looking for you.

  11. 31:20 – 36:33

    Intensity, ambiguity, and the leap: building trust in small moments

    1. JS

      Wanting for someone to seek us. But then when you go out into the dating world, and even if you meet people, you start to realize everyone's busy. Everyone's got a lot of stuff on. Maybe people are not that deeply into intimate connection and seeking. Maybe you feel like you're settling because that person doesn't really pursue you as much as you want. How does that translate into the real feeling of, "This person's nice, but I don't think they have that intensity with me, and I don't think I have that intensity for them"?

    2. EP

      Intensity increases. Intensity isn't just something that is a, a volcano that just, like, springs up inside of you. So here's what happens. You've, we've, we've now gotten so used to having all the answers in the palm of our hands with a bunch of predictive technologies that are basically removing all unpredictability, all ambiguity, all nuance, all doubt, where it tells me with no uncertainty where to go, what to eat, what to listen to, what to watch next. I don't have to explore.

    3. JS

      Mm.

    4. EP

      I don't have to experiment. I don't have to delve into the unknown. I don't have to make mistakes which I then correct, and I certainly have zero preparation for frustration and for somebody disagreeing with me because this thing gives it to me clear, black on white, or white on a, on a screen. It's so enticing and so detrimental at the same time because relationships exist in a zone of ambiguity. Relationship problems are paradoxes that you manage and not problems that you solve, and that means that you have to be able to tolerate the un- predict- I don't know yet if I'm gonna feel something for this person, but I'm curious enough to wanna go again. How much should I be curious? Who cares? You have some, you don't know, go for it. You never know. You may be surprised. Let yourself be surprised. That is this leap, you know? Falling in love is a leap. It's not something that you have guarantee in advance and that is a protective thing. It is not. It's not safe in that sense. You know, you need the safety, you need the security here to be able to do the leap, but the leap is risk-taking. That risk-taking is where you futurize. Otherwise, you can stay stuck here, right here.

    5. JS

      How do you know if you can trust someone?

    6. EP

      It's a fascinating moment in time for us to be talking about trust. On the one hand, people are constantly wondering, "How can I trust someone?" On the other hand, we trust strangers with our houses. We trust strangers with our cars. We trust giving all our data on a platform of which we have absolutely no idea who is actually looking at this. We have thrown ourselves into trusting situations like never before.

    7. JS

      So true.

    8. EP

      Unbelievable. We trust entire networks. We used to, Rachel Botman's talk, Botman talks about how we used to trust little, in little tribes, then we trusted in bigger communities. Now, we trust invisible corporations.

    9. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    10. EP

      Complete. And so she has a beautiful definition. Trust is a confident engagement with the unknown.

    11. JS

      Mm. Wow.

    12. EP

      Trust, I have expectations of you, but I'm not sure that you actually will do these things. What closes the gap between my expectations and the inherent uncertainty of life is trust.

    13. JS

      Mm.

    14. EP

      Trust is that leap of faith. Trust is what closes that gap. And how do we build it? In small increments, sliding door moments, movement by movement. I learn that I can count on you, that I can rely on you, that you have my back, that you think of me when I'm not there.

    15. JS

      Mm.

    16. EP

      That constancy, that permanence I was talking about, that you don't put your interests ahead of mine when I'm not in the room, that we're in this together. That's the language of trust.

    17. JS

      Mm.

    18. EP

      And you learn it because it's proven itself, situation after situation. That's how trust builds.

    19. JS

      I love that answer. I absolutely love that answer. It's so, so good, and I'm thinking about the number of people that ignore those signs because we like someone or we don't wanna be alone.

    20. EP

      Yes.

    21. JS

      We all know, like, when someone breaks up, there's a sense of they, they could see all of that.

    22. EP

      Mm-hmm.

    23. JS

      Like when they went back and they'd be like, "Oh, wait, that person didn't put my interests ahead of their own when I wasn't in the room," or, "That person didn't think me up, think about me when I wasn't in the room."

    24. EP

      Or right in the beginning, I knew when I would ask questions that I would get these vague answers that were elusive and just deflecting, and I could never get a precision.

    25. JS

      But I was into them.

    26. EP

      Yes, and sometimes I let it go, and then at some point you stop, and you pay attention, and you ground yourself in reality and you say, "Something's happening here."

    27. JS

      Mm.

    28. EP

      And now you can still say, "I'm willing to go along regardless," but often later on people say, "I sensed it way..." I mean, f- and everybody else saw it too.

  12. 36:33 – 42:21

    Patterns, seduction, and self-inquiry: ‘Why do I choose the wrong person?’

    1. JS

      How do we temper desire and trust? Because sometimes we desire the people that are somewhat untrustworthy.But we trust the people that we don't desire, and it feels like we're constantly-

    2. EP

      [laughs]

    3. JS

      ... caught in that catch-22 of-

    4. EP

      Yes. You trust people you don't desire, there's no problem there. We don't have desire for everyone. But I would put it like this. When you talk about trust, our tendency is to think of it in totalistic ways. "I trust you," rather than, "I trust you for."

    5. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    6. EP

      For what? I trust you for showing up when you say that you're gonna come somewhere, but I don't trust you with money.

    7. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    8. EP

      I don't trust you with keeping a secret when I tell you something private.

    9. JS

      Mm.

    10. EP

      I don't trust you with our kids. I don't trust that you wouldn't take credit for something that, in fact, I did. For what? I think that we all need to be honest and know that we trust some people for certain things and not for others.

    11. JS

      Yes.

    12. EP

      That is part of the course. I trust you to be a wonderful lover, but I don't trust you to be faithful.

    13. JS

      Mm.

    14. EP

      I trust you to, you know, be great company, but I don't trust that you would actually know how to make a commitment. Distinction, discernment-

    15. JS

      Mm. Mm

    16. EP

      ... good judgment.

    17. JS

      It requires detaching from that allure that we have sometimes that we're just... You know, the people that I'm talking about, I'm thinking about female friends of mine who have got somewhat, in their words, addicted to certain partners. You know, the sex life is amazing. The travel is great.

    18. EP

      I don't think it has anything to do with trust.

    19. JS

      Yeah.

    20. EP

      When you are in a pattern and you know it and it repeats itself, and you think, "That person is never gonna do this to me. That person is gonna be kind, is gonna rescue me, is gonna be good to me," that's the issue. The issue is not-

    21. JS

      Mm

    22. EP

      ... why do you trust people you shouldn't trust who are not really trustworthy?

    23. JS

      Right, right.

    24. EP

      The issue is, what is it about seeking consistently a certain kind of reparation, a corrective experience, which, in effect, is never gonna happen because the repetition of the pattern is that you want the experience, but the experience didn't take place in the first place, and that's what you are repeating. We put the focus on you choosing bad people. You, you, you, you always fall in love with the wrong guy. What does it say about you?

    25. JS

      Mm.

    26. EP

      What is it that you are imagining is gonna happen there? What is it that they are seducing you with? Why is their seduction so irresistible to you? The big art in relationships is to distinguish between what is yours and what is ours.

    27. JS

      Mm.

    28. EP

      What is relational and what is personal?

    29. JS

      Yeah.

    30. EP

      When you are in a pattern that you are repeating, it is personal. Of course, it plays out with another person-

  13. 42:21 – 57:41

    Intentional dating and AI romance: clarity without curiosity becomes sterile

    1. EP

      So I think that the looking for a soulmate on an app has been explored, actually. The kind of paradox of choice, the I can do better, what else is around the corner, the transactional nature of so much, I think that we have, has been exposed, actually. I, but I, I see new sources of exhaustion.

    2. JS

      Please tell me.

    3. EP

      What this does, when I have... perfection in my hand, a list, no doubt, no need to explore. I'm not gonna take the wrong direction and find that, wow, there's a restaurant I had never even seen existed there because, because Waze has told me to go a certain way. My issue is that I start to bring these very same expectations for perfection and prediction into my relationships with other humans. Now I want you to react with me the same way, and otherwise I have ick factors.

    4. JS

      Yeah, we'll talk about that.

    5. EP

      Okay? So that's number one of another kind of exhaustion, and, and I would call this comfort kills.

    6. JS

      Mm.

    7. EP

      The over-indexing on efficient and comfortable and frictionless is exhausting because what actually gives us energy is aliveness, vitality, curiosity, exploration, playfulness, discovery. Those verbs are what makes us feel alive and up-

    8. JS

      Mm-hmm

    9. EP

      ... and energized. If you deplete yourself from that and all you do is a checklist, an administrative chore, you will be exhausted. There is nothing energizing. There's no fuel for desire in there. Love is risky, desire even more so.

    10. JS

      That's so good. You've reminded me of something. Can I assert something?

    11. EP

      Yeah.

    12. JS

      'Cause you've just reminded me of a term that people are using right now. I just wanna define it for you because I, I wanna know the difference between what you're saying and what they're saying. So intentional dating is one of the defining relationship trends of 2026. It refers to approaching dating with clear purpose, self-awareness, and honest communication about what you want from a relationship. Is that good or is that bad?

    13. EP

      Good luck.

    14. JS

      Oh, wow.

    15. EP

      I mean, it's not bad, but there's a few pieces missing. No, no, it's nice to know what you want.

    16. JS

      Yeah.

    17. EP

      It's really good to have self-awareness. There's nothing to argue with.

    18. JS

      Yeah.

    19. EP

      But could you add the word curiosity?

    20. JS

      Mm.

    21. EP

      Openness, spontaneous, available to the mysteries of the world, to the unknown, to the surprise, to the serendipitous, to the spontaneous, to the improvised? That's where we actually feel alive. This is interesting. It's really true. It's important. It, but it, it, there is no juice in this, and I, after all, falling in love, desiring someone is filled with juice-

    22. JS

      Mm, mm

    23. EP

      ... and nectar [laughs]

    24. JS

      [laughs]

    25. EP

      ... and flavors.

    26. JS

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    27. EP

      There's no flavor in this. There's no senses. This is a totally disembodied thing. There's, you don't feel anything in your body, attraction you experience physically. There's, the, uh, there's no senses. What is it? Knowing what you need, good communication-

    28. JS

      Yeah, so it's-

    29. EP

      ... self-awareness

    30. JS

      ... I'll read it to you again. It said, "Intentional dating is a mindful approach to dating where people are clear about their goals, values, boundaries, and emotional capacity, and choose partners based on alignment rather than casual exploration."

  14. 57:41 – 1:11:30

    Love, loss, and interdependence: vulnerability, desire, and healthy needing

    1. JS

      Should love be hard?

    2. EP

      Love isn't hard. It, that, I don't think that is the right adjective here. I think love is active. It is a verb that you conjugate in multiple tenses, and it is incredible at, it's com- how it strengthens itself when it overcomes adversity or crisis or grief or challenging events. It's unbelievable how it expresses itself and, and, and manifests itself in ways you never thought you were capable of. You know, you have a pet, you discover a love you've never known before. You have a baby, you have a, an expansiveness of your heart that is mixed with grief. There is no love without the fear of loss.

    3. JS

      Mm.

    4. EP

      What is hard in love is the fear that you can lose it.

    5. JS

      Mm.

    6. EP

      That is one of the most challenging things. The more you love, the more you cannot imagine the world without it.

    7. JS

      Mm.

    8. EP

      And without who, whoever it is and whatever it is, you know, a, a tree, a, an animal, a human.

    9. JS

      Mm.

    10. EP

      What we learn is the grief that comes, and David Kessler says it beautifully, "The, the measure of your grief speaks to the measure of how much you loved."

    11. JS

      Mm. Mm-hmm.

    12. EP

      Not the measure of how much you lost, but the measure of how much you loved. I think it's beautiful.

    13. JS

      Yeah. It really is beautiful. It really is. We've talked a lot about the culture of pursuing, chasing, wanting love. On the other hand, in 2026, there was an article that said, uh, "Is it cringe to have a boyfriend?"

    14. EP

      Oh, my.

    15. JS

      Or, "Is having a boyfriend cringe?"

    16. EP

      Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

    17. JS

      And it was this whole idea that there are a lot of people who are scared to admit that we want something. You talked about one of the first ways of being in love was asking. You said a verb like asking, and I think today we're feeling this, "If I want something or need something or if I ask for something, it's actually cringe because I shouldn't. I should be able to be fully complete by myself," right? That's become the new version of how we should be in love. We should be complete before we find love, and even if we're in love, we should be fully complete because that's the only way to truly navigate something. And actually, it's cringe to want someone. It's cringe to need someone.

    18. EP

      It's cringe to be vulnerable. It's cringe to show that, that, you know, if, if your idea is, "I need to be complete," then of course, the moment you need something or want something or long for something, you will feel cringe. It's, it's, it's, uh, it's bizarre.

    19. JS

      Mm.

    20. EP

      It's bizarre. It's beautiful to want. It's beautiful to long for something. It's beautiful to have this élan towards someone else. It's not cringe, but we are so out of practice. And the worse, the more we go on in the society as is, the less practice we have. Then you are left with cringe. We want things from the moment we are born. "My toy! Mine! Mm, I'm holding onto it," you know? Everyone has wanted. That wanting, the owning of the wanting is the definition of desire.

    21. JS

      Mm.

    22. EP

      It goes with deserving. You can't want if you don't feel worthy of wanting. Entitled in the healthy sense of the word, and desiring. And all those things have vulnerability to it. They also have boldness to it. They have also, you know, there's, there, there are a mix of qualities that go into that. I think that the cringe is a response to the fact that people are beyond socially atrophied. The, the thousand touchpoints, the thousand interactions that we used to have that made us not be so afraid of what people will do to us if we show them the slightest of us is really... problematic. And what's ironic about it, when you asked me the question about online and being, being judged, uh, uh, then the transparency, this the same thing. We've never talked more about authenticity, and we've never been more afraid of vulnerability.

    23. JS

      [laughs] Yeah, so well said, yeah.

    24. EP

      I mean, authenticity by definition, to be true to myself, has an element of vulnerability to it.

    25. JS

      Absolutely.

    26. EP

      Truth is, is vulnerable. It's a fragile thing, you know? It's not just a rock that stands there. So it's an amazing thing that we are speaking from both sides of our mouth. This is a big debate. Should you work on yourself? That's the question, right? Should you be wo- uh, working on yourself and perfect yourself and m- and, you know, all the finishing touches of this very, of this very perfect creature here before you can be in a relationship? Here's the situation. I have sat with so many people in my office, and we work on all kinds of things around self-esteem, self-worth, fear of rejection, trauma experience, traumatic experiences in your life, all of those things. But once you come in, 'cause you're meeting someone, it gets activated. Now I see it in action. Now it's not we're talking about feelings that live inside of you. Now I see, now I can intervene. It's like a trainer can sit with me and tell me, "You need to position yourself like this. You need to bend your knees." But when I'm not doing anything and I'm sitting on the chair, this is all conceptually very interesting, but the moment I start to practice, when the trainer, uh, correct it, they see it in action. It's happening right, uh, alive.

    27. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    28. EP

      It's pregnant with information. It's the same in a relationship. It's both/and. Yes, you need to go and address some of your challenges and the, uh, the fears that roil inside of you and all of that, but in essence, the real moment you will be able to kn- to know what to do differently is when you're getting the stimulus-

    29. JS

      Mm

    30. EP

      ... and you get to practice the new response.

  15. 1:11:30 – 1:27:57

    Therapy-speak, ‘icks,’ and romantic consumerism: restoring ethics and nuance

    1. JS

      Yeah, absolutely. Uh, Esther, I wanted to ask you about certain therapy or TikTok trends-

    2. EP

      [laughs]

    3. JS

      ... that, uh, are going on right now, and I wanna hear your thoughts on when you hear these things. So if you hear clients, people in the therapy room say these things to you-

    4. EP

      Don't just listen to my thoughts. Watch my body language.

    5. JS

      Okay.

    6. EP

      Which, by the way, is way more important than the words we use.

    7. JS

      Yes.

    8. EP

      This is very important when we talk communication.

    9. JS

      Yes.

    10. EP

      It, we are, because all the AIs, it's all words at this point.

    11. JS

      Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

    12. EP

      All the texting, it's words. We communicate with so many, 90% of our communication is not through words.

    13. JS

      Yeah.

    14. EP

      So it's the timbre, my voice, my accent, the rhythm.

    15. JS

      But we're not exp- experiencing any of that, yeah.

    16. EP

      No, no. My body, my facial expressions. So my thoughts about what you're gonna tell me is gonna be broader.

    17. JS

      Got it. Understood.

    18. EP

      [laughs] Watch me.

    19. JS

      So, so if someone says to you, "They're always gaslighting me. Everyone's gaslighting me," what's your response? What's your take?

    20. EP

      My first question is, what do you mean?

    21. JS

      Mm.

    22. EP

      So I know what you're talking about. If everyone is gaslighting you, you're probably using the word wrong.

    23. JS

      Mm.

    24. EP

      Because that is not the way it works.

    25. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    26. EP

      You know, what do you feel is happening to you? Do you wonder if people have your best interest in mind? Do you think you're being set up? Do you think they're lying behind your back? What exactly? And then let's name those things-

    27. JS

      Mm-hmm

    28. EP

      ... and not use therapy speak, because it's not helpful to you.

    29. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    30. EP

      If everything has the same name, if every food is called soup, then you don't really know what you're eating.

Episode duration: 1:27:57

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