James Cameron: No One Believed in Me… So I Bet Everything on Myself!

1. 0:00 – 1:43

   Intro

   1. JSJay Shetty0:00

      [instrumental music] Do you remember the first character or world that you ever imagined, even if it wasn't for a movie or a film or a-

   2. JCJames Cameron0:36

      Mm

   3. JSJay Shetty0:36

      ... idea, but just a world that you lived in when you were younger?

   4. JCJames Cameron0:40

      Well, I was totally enamored as a kid with anything fantastic or science fiction, anything I saw on television that was fantasy and science fiction. But I remember one, one sort... I think there's a moment where something inspires you to, to take your own action, to do your own art. And I remember, and this may not have been the first, but this is what pops to mind. So seeing Mysterious Island, which was a Ray Harryhausen film, I probably would've been seven or eight, and coming home and wanting to do my own version of Mysterious Island. So I started to draw essentially a comic book. And but it was my own story. The animals were different. They wound up cast away on a raft, as opposed to in the movie it was a balloon, and I just started telling my own story. So technically, that would be m- the first case I can remember of world-building inspired by something else, but not copying that thing. And of course, Ray Harryhausen

2. 1:43 – 4:44

   An Early Fascination With Science Fiction

   1. JCJames Cameron1:43

      was always inspiring to me as a kid. The, you know, I mean, the, the technique that he used of stop-motion animation is considered quite quaint now, you know, and, and we can do things that are f- far more realistic. But at the time, there was nothing like that in terms of, of his art and his craft, and it... that blew my mind, uh, at the time. And, you know, look, it doesn't take much to inspire. Kids are imaginative, you know, and, and when you get something that impacts your imagination and, and triggers it, and then you start to draw, all of a sudden my hand's going.

   2. JSJay Shetty2:18

      [laughs]

   3. JCJames Cameron2:18

      You know what I mean? I'm drawing. I'm, I'm choosing colors. What, what color do I want the giant turtle to be? I picked green.

   4. JSJay Shetty2:24

      [laughs]

   5. JCJames Cameron2:24

      No big, no big surprise there. [laughs]

   6. JSJay Shetty2:27

      Did you ever get to share that with the director or anyone in the cast?

   7. JCJames Cameron2:30

      I did talk... I talked to Ray, uh, later in his life. He was pretty retired. He hadn't, he hadn't done any, uh, stop-motion for some time. But, you know, I shared with him some of these early stories and the impact he had on me and so many other filmmakers. He was absolutely the most fantastic of the fantasy filmmakers that were out there for many, many years.

   8. JSJay Shetty2:51

      I can't imagine what that felt like to him to hear that something of his had inspired you to go on to see what you did.

   9. JCJames Cameron2:58

      I think he was just kinda dazzled by where we, where the next generation or the one after that had sort of taken it into CG and so on, and things that w- w- he couldn't have imagined the technology, but he certainly could have imagined the design and the storytelling-

   10. JSJay Shetty3:14

       Mm

   11. JCJames Cameron3:14

       ... you know, that were possible with those, those new tools.

   12. JSJay Shetty3:17

       Yeah, no, I think that's the power of art. As I'm listening to you, I'm thinking just how many young kids are going to go and watch Fire and Ash, and that becomes their version of-

   13. JCJames Cameron3:26

       Right

   14. JSJay Shetty3:26

       ... that movie, that then inspires them to go and bring their art into the world, whether it's film and TV or poetry or music or whatever it may be.

   15. JCJames Cameron3:34

       Right.

   16. JSJay Shetty3:34

       And how, how important it is because I... he probably didn't imagine that, you know, James Cameron as a seven or eight-year-old was watching his film and-

   17. JCJames Cameron3:42

       No, how could he have?

   18. JSJay Shetty3:44

       Yeah.

   19. JCJames Cameron3:44

       You know, I mean, he was just following his muse and, and we all do, you know? But I, I'd love to think that stuff that I've done has inspired, inspired, um, you know... I don't, I wanna say kids, but, you know, it could be anybody that wants to be an, an artist at, at any age. And, you know, I have this art show that's touring around in, in Europe. It's in, actually in Istanbul right now, and it's a lot of drawings that I did and paintings that I did when I was in high school and in college. I didn't know I was gonna be a big shot filmmaker someday.

   20. JSJay Shetty4:13

       [laughs]

   21. JCJames Cameron4:13

       You know, how could you possibly know that, you know? I was just... The ideas in my head, I just had to draw them. I mean, I had to draw them. And I always say artists, artists are the people that can't not draw-

   22. JSJay Shetty4:25

       Mm

   23. JCJames Cameron4:25

       ... or can't not create. It's, it's like it's not like you force yourself to create. You have to force yourself not to.

   24. JSJay Shetty4:31

       Mm.

   25. JCJames Cameron4:32

       You know? And if it... that's flowing from you, if it's flowing from your fingertips, or if it's voice or if it's music or whatever it is, if, if it's flowing from you and you can't stop it, guess what? You're stuck. You're an artist. [laughs]

   26. JSJay Shetty4:43

       [laughs]

3. 4:44 – 6:34

   Inspiring the Next Generation of Artists

   1. JSJay Shetty4:44

      You feel compelled.

   2. JCJames Cameron4:45

      Yeah. Yeah.

   3. JSJay Shetty4:46

      Yeah, it comes-

   4. JCJames Cameron4:47

      And, and you don't question it. That's the crazy thing. At least I never did.

   5. JSJay Shetty4:51

      Mm.

   6. JCJames Cameron4:51

      You know, I'd, I'd sit on the, the quad at, at college, and I'd just have my math notebook or whatever, and I'd be sketching some girl sitting under a tree or some guy or my own hand or, you know, I mean, it was just always drawing. Uh, I couldn't imagine not drawing.

   7. JSJay Shetty5:08

      Was, was there a part of you that felt out of place as a kid, but now that same skill is essential to who you are now, or did you always feel that you-

   8. JCJames Cameron5:16

      I think so. Yeah. I mean, look, it can get very solitary, the cr- the creative act.

   9. JSJay Shetty5:21

      Mm.

   10. JCJames Cameron5:22

       Especially when you write because you really have to just, you know, isolate, and you need to be in your own head space and be comfortable there for long periods of time, so it can be isolating. I, I remember, and, and, you know, I mean, our memory of our childhood is always tainted by the stories that we tell ourselves, and we don't remember the event, we remember the story.

   11. JSJay Shetty5:43

       Yes.

   12. JCJames Cameron5:43

       Right?

   13. JSJay Shetty5:43

       Very true.

   14. JCJames Cameron5:44

       'Cause memory is an interesting thing. We don't really... We're not video cameras. There isn't enough storage in this three-and-a-half-pound meat computer to last a lifetime. It'd be million petabytes of data. We just don't have room for that, right? So we don't remember the event like a videotape. We remember the story we tell ourselves.

   15. JSJay Shetty6:01

       So true.

   16. JCJames Cameron6:02

       The story I tell myself is that I spent a lot of time on my own in my imagination in the woods, connecting with nature, finding animals, finding bugs, collecting butterflies, tadpoles, whatever it was.A lot of time on my own drawing and just thinking and creating, and a lot of time with other kids organizing and doing fun collective projects. You know, the one in the neighborhood that always said, "Hey, guys, let's build a fort."

   17. JSJay Shetty6:29

       [laughs]

   18. JCJames Cameron6:29

       You know, "Hey, guys, let's build a go-kart. Hey, guys, let's make an airplane

4. 6:34 – 8:44

   The Solitary Nature of Creative Work

   1. JCJames Cameron6:34

      out of wood and hang it from a tree and fly." Uh, which we did-

   2. JSJay Shetty6:37

      [laughs]

   3. JCJames Cameron6:37

      ... until the rope broke and, you know, it crashed. But, you know. So there was an alpha social component, which is now critical, but there was also a quiet, creative, and introspective component to it. And I think it was, if I look at my life now, it's my comfort in both of those zones-

   4. JSJay Shetty6:58

      Mm

   5. JCJames Cameron6:58

      ... that allows me to do what I do. 'Cause a lot of people are good writers or good creators, good artists, but they don't have the social organizational component to motivate people to do things, you know, and to leverage their creativity. And so that's a big part of it, that sort of alpha component, if you will.

   6. JSJay Shetty7:16

      Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's fascinating because you hear about this passion in your childhood, the flow to draw and create and to-

   7. JCJames Cameron7:24

      Mm-hmm

   8. JSJay Shetty7:24

      ... be fascinated with nature, and it almost makes sense. But then you become a truck driver.

   9. JCJames Cameron7:28

      [laughs] Right.

   10. JSJay Shetty7:29

       And so walk me through that arc of your life because I feel so many people kind of up until ten, 11 years old may even have these passions and dreams and ideas and creatives, but then their life takes a different-

   11. JCJames Cameron7:41

       I never went to university per se. I went to the Fullerton Junior College, which is part of the junior college system. I was intensely curious. It was the first time in my life where I was surrounded by people who actually wanted to, to be there, you know, as opposed to high school, where people didn't wanna be there. They just had to be there.

   12. JSJay Shetty7:58

       Right.

   13. JCJames Cameron7:58

       You know, and, and most of them sort of rejected the learning process. I was always hungry to learn, not necessarily what they were, what they were teaching, but, but, you know, lots of new things. I got to college, and I was surrounded by people who actually wanted to be there, uh, and wanted to learn. And, and there was... People were having arguments about philosophy and, and, and English and storytelling and, and art, and it was very exciting. But it was unsustainable for me. I couldn't afford to do it continuously or, or endlessly. And, um, so I had to work, and I worked various jobs, all blue-collar jobs, right? And I didn't mind working. I didn't mind just sort of being, you know. And I, I got married at a very early age. I had a little, little pink house with a white picket fence and a dog, you know. And

5. 8:44 – 12:16

   When Storytelling Becomes a Calling

   1. JCJames Cameron8:44

      it was kind of, you know, kind of comforting. It was very, very limited and, and simple, but at the same time, in my after-hours as a truck driver, 'cause it was a, you know, nine-to-five or an eight-to-five job, I was painting, I was drawing, I was storytelling for myself. My wife didn't understand that. She was a waitress, and she, she liked the me that was social and with her, but not the me that was off, you know, creating all these, these worlds. And so I was still trying to reconcile, you know, that kind of social facing versus the, you know, uh, landscape of my own imagination. But I've always been comfortable in my own head that way. Uh, dreams are a big part of it. Dreams are a big part of my creativity and source of imagery, source of little, um, bits and pieces of narrative, you know, 'cause it can be quite chaotic and jumbled, but still within that, there can be some interesting ideas. And, uh, so I, I think it was all just building up-

   2. JSJay Shetty9:37

      Mm

   3. JCJames Cameron9:37

      ... building up a, a pressure to the point where I had to do something about it. Um, and that was in my, my mid-20s.

   4. JSJay Shetty9:44

      Mm.

   5. JCJames Cameron9:44

      And so I was kind of a late starter. I never went to film school, you know. My film school was the drive-in movie theaters of Orange County.

   6. JSJay Shetty9:52

      [laughs]

   7. JCJames Cameron9:52

      You know, so no formal training in film aesthetics or, or film history or, or any of that stuff. But it was just kind of building up, that, all right, you know, it's that urge to when you can't not draw, when you start thinking filmically and in terms of storytelling, it's like, well, you can't not tell a story. You've gotta tell somebody the damn story.

   8. JSJay Shetty10:12

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JCJames Cameron10:12

      You know? And I think anybody out there that, that hears this, that feels that way, you're stuck. You don't have a choice. You know? [laughs]

   10. JSJay Shetty10:19

       Yeah.

   11. JCJames Cameron10:19

       You're probably gonna be a filmmaker or a writer or whatever it is. You know, just accept it. You know, you might never be rich because, you know, it's, it's a difficult task and, and, uh, there's a lot of luck, I think, involved in getting to be a, a, a successful storyteller. But, um, I just followed it, and I didn't, I didn't question it. You know, I just quit my job one day. No rancor, just, "Guys, I got stuff to do. I'll see ya," to my other dri- the other drivers, and they're like, "What? Where are you going?" [laughs]

   12. JSJay Shetty10:49

       [laughs]

   13. JCJames Cameron10:49

       You know?

   14. JSJay Shetty10:50

       It... I mean, it feels like a bold step looking back because without film school, without having made a film-

   15. JCJames Cameron10:56

       Yeah

   16. JSJay Shetty10:56

       ... without any of that background, to watch Star Wars, I believe, in 1977-

   17. JCJames Cameron11:01

       That was the-

   18. JSJay Shetty11:01

       ... and for you to then go, "I need to go and become a filmmaker," even though you love drawing and... It, it feels like a bold step, and I think about all of our listeners in our community who are all thinking something similar. I think a lot-

   19. JCJames Cameron11:15

       Yeah

   20. JSJay Shetty11:15

       ... of people in my generation and the generations after me maybe studied something at school that wasn't the thing they wanted to be.

   21. JCJames Cameron11:21

       Right.

   22. JSJay Shetty11:22

       They have a dream-

   23. JCJames Cameron11:23

       Right

   24. JSJay Shetty11:23

       ... inside of them. They have a story, and they feel a pull, but they're scared to take that final step. What gave you that conviction? Did... Was it conviction, or what was it? Was it-

   25. JCJames Cameron11:32

       I think it was a conviction. I'm... Star Wars helped, and I've talked to George Lucas about this. I said, "I, I... There are untold people that, that you've inspired, George, but I'm one of them because..." But in a way, I don't, I don't think he was... quite wanted the answer that I, that I gave, which was I was already seeing all that stuff in my head, and when I saw Star Wars, I thought, "If that could be the highest grossing film in history, then the stuff that I'm seeing in my mind when I listen to fast electronic music and imagine space battles and all this crazy stuff," it's like, "I should be doing that." You know? There will be w- there will be a market for it. There's a market for my imagination.

   26. JSJay Shetty12:12

       Mm.

   27. JCJames Cameron12:12

       And that's maybe the boldest step, is the step you take internally-

6. 12:16 – 16:33

   Finding a Market for Your Imagination

   1. JSJay Shetty12:16

      Mm

   2. JCJames Cameron12:17

      ... you know, where you give yourself permission to at least go try it, you know. Uh, and, and you've... And when you make that commitment, you have to go in wholeheartedly. You can't say, "Okay, I wanna be a filmmaker part-time."But I'm gonna sort of keep a foot in, like, medical school. It's not gonna work. You gotta go. You just gotta jump out of the plane and, and, and hope you're wearing a parachute. Um, you know, so I always tell people that opportunities come along and they're fleeting, and that door will open for a moment, and then it'll slide closed. And, and you gotta be... Fortune favors the prepared mind. If it's really something you love, read as much as you can. Prepare your mind ahead of time. Be ready, 'cause when that door opens... But the critical thing is to understand it's not an example of an opportunity.

   3. JSJay Shetty13:05

      Mm.

   4. JCJames Cameron13:06

      It is the opportunity. You either take it or you don't. You don't use it as a, as a time to think about, "Well, when the next one comes along, I may or may not..." You know what I mean? That's not how it works.

   5. JSJay Shetty13:15

      Mm.

   6. JCJames Cameron13:16

      You go. You launch.

   7. JSJay Shetty13:17

      Yeah.

   8. JCJames Cameron13:17

      You know? And that opportunity for me was that a, a guy that I was working with on learning to sculpt and make molds, who was a little bit ahead of me on the sort of fan curve of actually knowing how to do rubber armatures for stop motion, and I was pretty fascinated by that. His sister was dating a guy who was a carpenter-

   9. JSJay Shetty13:38

      [laughs]

   10. JCJames Cameron13:38

       ... on a super low budget Roger Corman science fiction film. And, and I just said, "Introduce us."

   11. JSJay Shetty13:46

       [laughs]

   12. JCJames Cameron13:46

       And so she talked to him. He talked to them. We got an appointment, and we went in and showed our little models and our little things that we had, and I had this film that I had made with some friends, and we both got jobs on a Roger Corman film. And we thought we'd died and gone to heaven, 'cause now we were getting a paycheck on a real movie.

   13. JSJay Shetty14:04

       Mm.

   14. JCJames Cameron14:04

       Now, it was a total piece of crap movie.

   15. JSJay Shetty14:05

       [laughs]

   16. JCJames Cameron14:05

       It was a little tiny movie. You know, it was actually the biggest movie Roger Corman had ever s- had ever made. It was, like, a m- million dollars or something like that, which was huge for him. He usually made movies for, like, $200,000.

   17. JSJay Shetty14:18

       Mm.

   18. JCJames Cameron14:18

       But, um, and then all of a sudden I'm on a movie.

   19. JSJay Shetty14:21

       Mm.

   20. JCJames Cameron14:22

       And then the rest just sort of made sense after that. It's that, it's that prepared mind thing.

   21. JSJay Shetty14:26

       Yeah.

   22. JCJames Cameron14:26

       You know, I had read everything I could possibly read. I had, I had schooled myself on how visual effects were done, all for no money, all not at university. Just, um, j- just, you know, over the, uh, th- that sort of two or three years that I was driving trucks and working blue collar jobs. So I guess in the back of my mind, I must have thought, "I'm gonna do this for real at some point."

   23. JSJay Shetty14:48

       Mm.

   24. JCJames Cameron14:48

       'Cause I was clearly preparing myself, but I had no entrée.

   25. JSJay Shetty14:51

       Yeah.

   26. JCJames Cameron14:52

       I didn't know anybody that knew anybody that knew anybody that worked on a film. Even though I was in Orange County, it's not that far from here, not that far from the center of the film industry, but it might as well have been Montana.

   27. JSJay Shetty15:03

       [laughs]

   28. JCJames Cameron15:04

       [laughs] You know, at that time, certainly.

   29. JSJay Shetty15:07

       Yeah. Did you... Do you record your dreams? How do you note them down? How do you capture them?

   30. JCJames Cameron15:12

       Yeah. Sometimes I'll wake up and I'll just write it down, you know, or I'll-
7. 16:33 – 22:42

   How to Capture and Record Your Dreams

   1. JCJames Cameron16:33

      various winds of the, uh, s- spirituality fads and things like that. That's not how I roll. I'm very science-oriented. You gotta show me. You gotta prove it. It's gotta be peer-reviewed, you know, and, and that sort of thing. It's gotta be the subject of double-blind studies, and it's gotta be falsifiable and all the, you know, empirical stuff. But I've seen some things I don't... I can't explain, and she's demonstrated some things to me that can't be explained-

   2. JSJay Shetty16:57

      Wow

   3. JCJames Cameron16:58

      ... by my know- my understanding of science, you know? I mean, I'm not a scientist, but I did study physics. I studied astronomy, and I've, I keep pretty current in the sciences. So there's clearly stuff out there that's not well explained-

   4. JSJay Shetty17:11

      Mm

   5. JCJames Cameron17:12

      ... or explained at all right now. Doesn't mean it won't be-

   6. JSJay Shetty17:14

      [laughs]

   7. JCJames Cameron17:14

      ... someday using empirical methodology. I don't know quite how I got off on that, but we were talking-

   8. JSJay Shetty17:19

      [laughs]

   9. JCJames Cameron17:19

      ... about dreams, and dreams are not well understood-

   10. JSJay Shetty17:22

       Mm

   11. JCJames Cameron17:22

       ... um, even by neuroscientists and so on. What, what is, what is the brain doing, you know? Um, I personally think that w- that we're kind of, we're like, um, large language models, you know? So all the training data of our life, it just goes into a kind of a diffusion state, which is how generative AI works. It goes into a kind of a very noisy state, and then out of that coalesces new things, and I think the brain is just constantly creating in the way that a generative AI works and... But who's creating it, and who's it being created for?

   12. JSJay Shetty18:01

       Mm.

   13. JCJames Cameron18:01

       So you're simultaneously the creator and the watcher, which is kind of amazing.

   14. JSJay Shetty18:06

       Yeah.

   15. JCJames Cameron18:06

       I'm creating a simulated experience for myself, one part of my brain is, and another part of my brain, let's call it the ego locus or whatever, the, the, the person taking the ride, the ki- the, the kid in the rollercoaster is going on the ride, which is kind of the filmmaking process.

   16. JSJay Shetty18:22

       That's fascinating.

   17. JCJames Cameron18:23

       Because I'm making a story. I'm making up a story for my... kind of simulation of the audience mind-

   18. JSJay Shetty18:31

       Mm-hmm

   19. JCJames Cameron18:31

       ... the group mind.

   20. JSJay Shetty18:33

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JCJames Cameron18:33

       Right? So part of my brain is making up a story for another part of my brain. That part of my brain is sitting in a movie theater with hundreds of other people and receiving it, and judging it. Like, "Okay, this is cool. I like that," you know? And you know, you try to drill down on the creative process. I'm a writer. I'm sitting there, I'm looking at a blank screen. Where do you start?

   22. JSJay Shetty18:53

       Yeah.

   23. JCJames Cameron18:54

       You know? Um, and a lot of writers do it in very different ways. Some start, you know, page one, you know? Bob walks down the street.

   24. JSJay Shetty19:01

       [laughs]

   25. JCJames Cameron19:01

       You know? And then it just goes from there li- in a linear fashion. For me, it coalesces probably almost in a diffusion model kind of way. I start writing notes, and little images come to me, and I start putting the notes together. And for the Avatar sequels, for example, um, I wrote o- over 1,000 pages of notes, just little fragments. Oh, wouldn't it-

   26. JSJay Shetty19:23

       And dreams and images and-

   27. JCJames Cameron19:24

       And sometimes dreams play a part in that, and sometimes just the daydreaming process, the, that creative engine. 'Cause I think that same creative engine that runs at night out of control, non-linear, chaotic montage style is actually more functional during the day and can be kind of directed to stay on a topic and follow it through. Um, you know, so maybe I'll be thinking about a character, and then something'll pop into my mind, you know, and then I'll start writing about that. And it does... I'm not trying to tell a linear narrative at that point, you know. I'll rem- and it, it becomes a bit of a dialogue. So I, I remember the time I was sitting there in my writing office and I said, "Well, what if there was a kid that was, you know, a kid that was born on the base? And what if he was out in the, the forest with his Na'vi little kid friends, and his mask got messed up?"

   28. JSJay Shetty20:15

       Mm-hmm.

   29. JCJames Cameron20:15

       "And you know, they had to save him. He was running out of, running out of air, and it became a whole thing." And so I imagined this whole thing about a race against time to get him, get him back to the base, and I thought, "Okay, that's a pretty good story. Now what if, what if that kid was Quaritch's son?"

   30. JSJay Shetty20:30

       Mm.
8. 22:42 – 24:17

   Different Approaches to the Creative Process

   1. JCJames Cameron22:42

      lean, little, tight indie film that I like to call Fire and Ash.

   2. JSJay Shetty22:46

      [laughs]

   3. JCJames Cameron22:46

      It's only, only three hours and seven minutes long.

   4. JSJay Shetty22:50

      One thing I've been reflecting on lately is how even the smallest choices can create a big impact over time. Whether it's choosing to spend a quiet night in to recharge or making a decision that brings you closer to a long-term goal, those moments of intention really matter. And when it comes to the choices we make with our money, that same mindset applies. I've learned that saving for the things that truly matter, like your first home or a reliable car, starts with small, thoughtful decisions. That's why I appreciate what State Farm is doing with their personal price plan. It gives you the power to personalize your plan and create an affordable price that works for your life. You can bundle your home and auto insurance in a way that supports your journey and your goals. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. What's incredible about it, when I watched it, I was so grateful that you allowed me to go see it last week. And as I said, when I was there, the, uh, gentleman in the theater who was playing it for me, he told me which seat you'd like me to watch it from, which I thought was-

   5. JCJames Cameron24:12

      [laughs]

   6. JSJay Shetty24:12

      ... a beautiful experience to have. So I said, I said, "Yes, I wanna sit in the exact seat." And

9. 24:17 – 29:29

   What is Your Creative Vision?

   1. JSJay Shetty24:17

      then-

   2. JCJames Cameron24:17

      Well, no, it's good that you moved back, though.

   3. JSJay Shetty24:19

      I did. I-

   4. JCJames Cameron24:19

      'Cause I did that-

   5. JSJay Shetty24:20

      But he told me I had that option. He said-

   6. JCJames Cameron24:22

      I did that to- uh, uh, today, actually. Uh, for the first time I watched from the seat behind. Now, normally that's my working seat when I'm reviewing, 'cause you can see that there's a, a desk there with an Avid, and so on. Um, but I thoughtWell, let me see, let me see what it's like from there, where I, it doesn't fill my peripheral field.

   7. JSJay Shetty24:40

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JCJames Cameron24:40

      And I've got a, a little bit more of that sense of control that you have when it's a proscenium.

   9. JSJay Shetty24:46

      Mm-hmm.

   10. JCJames Cameron24:46

       You know? And I thought, "Oh, this is actually pretty good." [laughs]

   11. JSJay Shetty24:48

       [laughs] It, it was spectacular, but more importantly, three hours and seven minutes flew by. There was never a moment... I didn't, I was, uh, I didn't look at my phone once in-

   12. JCJames Cameron24:58

       Great

   13. JSJay Shetty24:58

       ... three hours and seven minutes. To me, that's the test-

   14. JCJames Cameron25:00

       Great. Okay

   15. JSJay Shetty25:00

       ... today of having your engagement, attention, and awareness.

   16. JCJames Cameron25:03

       Right. So we passed the most critical test.

   17. JSJay Shetty25:05

       And yeah, and the most magnificent thing is that so much happens.

   18. JCJames Cameron25:10

       Yeah.

   19. JSJay Shetty25:11

       Like, you're just on the edge of your seat wondering what's gonna happen next, and so much is happening.

   20. JCJames Cameron25:15

       Right.

   21. JSJay Shetty25:15

       And to do that for three hours and seven minutes in your indie movie is, uh, is pretty im- it's just an incredible feast for the eyes and ears, and like, I felt like all my senses are engaged-

   22. JCJames Cameron25:26

       Yes

   23. JSJay Shetty25:26

       ... all the time-

   24. JCJames Cameron25:26

       Absolutely

   25. JSJay Shetty25:27

       ... which is such a beautiful experience to have, where just every time a new scene opens, you're just totally captivated, and it's-

   26. JCJames Cameron25:35

       Well, thanks

   27. JSJay Shetty25:35

       ... it's, it's so hard to do that for that long, especially with... I, I consider myself to have good presence and attention, but even then, I can turn off something in 30 minutes when you... You know? And so to have your engagement not just on a story level, but on a sensory level, and, uh, and-

   28. JCJames Cameron25:51

       I think it, yeah

   29. JSJay Shetty25:52

       ... all levels.

   30. JCJames Cameron25:53

       I, I think you're onto something there in describing, um, e- as you're saying it, I'm thinking, "Well, what are my goals creatively?"
10. 29:29 – 32:01

    Lessons on Family, Community, and Belonging

    1. JSJay Shetty29:29

       and you feel that because you feel the depth of the relationship the characters have for each other.

    2. JCJames Cameron29:35

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    3. JSJay Shetty29:35

       You feel that. You, you fully believe this is real. It must exist somewhere.

    4. JCJames Cameron29:39

       Yeah, right, right.

    5. JSJay Shetty29:40

       Because how can you feel so deeply for people who look different to you and feel different to you-

    6. JCJames Cameron29:45

       Wow

    7. JSJay Shetty29:45

       ... and have different experience? But we f- we feel it.

    8. JCJames Cameron29:47

       That's a goal, right? So the goal is, all right, these people look different. They're physiologically different. They live in a different place. But doesn't that give us permission to step outside ourselves-

    9. JSJay Shetty29:58

       Mm

    10. JCJames Cameron29:59

        ... with our petty little differences between race and culture and religion and, and politics and all that stuff, step well outside ourselves and see kind of universals of human behavior and the things we care about, whether that's a sense of, uh, duty and love that a parent has for their, for their child, and that's why these films travel, I think. You know? And why they, they resonate in, in China and India and Europe and Africa, wherever they go, because I'm trying to deal with universal stuff. But it, but I'm not trying to make stuff up, right? So with the sequels, um, uh, Way of Water and Fire, Fire and Ash, and beyond that if we get to make some more, I don't know if we will or not. We have to make some money.

    11. JSJay Shetty30:41

        Yeah. [laughs]

    12. JCJames Cameron30:41

        You know, I mean, it's a business also. But, um, if we do get to make some more, the stories are about a family.

    13. JSJay Shetty30:47

        Mm-hmm.

    14. JCJames Cameron30:47

        And so I couldn'tProb- not only couldn't, but probably wouldn't have even tried to write them if I hadn't been in a large family and gone through all that teen angst and that issue, the father issues and not being seen and all those things, and then having been a father of teens. We've got, uh, Suzy and I have five kids, and, uh... So I mean, artists are just working out their stuff.

    15. JSJay Shetty31:12

        Mm.

    16. JCJames Cameron31:12

        You know, their lived experience and project and, and but taking that to another world and putting it in another context allows everybody to share in it and/or recognize themselves in it, either in a aspirational way, like, "Wow, I wish I was part of a family like that."

    17. JSJay Shetty31:30

        Yeah.

    18. JCJames Cameron31:30

        "My family, not so great," or maybe, "I don't have a lot of siblings," or maybe, "I wonder what that would be like." Or maybe it's like, "I'm in exactly that kind of family." [laughs]

    19. JSJay Shetty31:38

        [laughs] Yeah.

    20. JCJames Cameron31:39

        "And I wish I wasn't sometimes."

    21. JSJay Shetty31:41

        Yeah.

    22. JCJames Cameron31:41

        You know? Uh...

    23. JSJay Shetty31:42

        I, I, I've been repeating to my wife, uh, I'm saying this in reaction where, in response to what you just said now. I've been saying to my wife all week, we need to have... We don't have kids yet, but we plan on having them one day. And I said, "When we have kids, we need to have, uh, mantras and affirmations as a family." So I keep saying to her, "Sullies never quit." Like, I'm like-

    24. JCJames Cameron31:59

        Right. There you go

    25. JSJay Shetty31:59

        ... I just keep saying that to her because I'm like-

11. 32:01 – 38:58

    Why We Only Protect What We Love

    1. JCJames Cameron32:01

       Okay

    2. JSJay Shetty32:01

       ... I love that statement. It stuck with me, and I was like, to see the little child's, like, courage in that moment-

    3. JCJames Cameron32:07

       Right

    4. JSJay Shetty32:07

       ... where they're in so much danger and so much pain, but they remember that their dad told them that Sullies never quit.

    5. JCJames Cameron32:12

       Right.

    6. JSJay Shetty32:13

       And that-

    7. JCJames Cameron32:13

       And then when she says it, when she says it later, she basically saves the world-

    8. JSJay Shetty32:17

       [laughs]

    9. JCJames Cameron32:18

       ... with one thing.

    10. JSJay Shetty32:19

        Yeah.

    11. JCJames Cameron32:19

        When she says, you know, "Come on, we can do this."

    12. JSJay Shetty32:23

        Yeah.

    13. JCJames Cameron32:23

        "Sullies never quit."

    14. JSJay Shetty32:24

        Yeah. [laughs]

    15. JCJames Cameron32:24

        And you're like, "Go, Took!"

    16. JSJay Shetty32:26

        Yeah, exactly.

    17. JCJames Cameron32:27

        That's right.

    18. JSJay Shetty32:27

        And that's that feeling of I'm like, to see that courage in a young person and how-

    19. JCJames Cameron32:31

        Yeah

    20. JSJay Shetty32:32

        ... these simple universal messe- messages are things they hold onto in a child's mind. And then even the storyline with Picone, like, for me, that-

    21. JCJames Cameron32:40

        Mm-hmm.

    22. JSJay Shetty32:41

        Oh my... I mean, from the second to the third, because when I watched, um, the second movie, for me, that fully just made me fall in sea life in a way that I hadn't before.

    23. JCJames Cameron32:51

        Right.

    24. JSJay Shetty32:52

        And, and, and got a com- I was like, "Wow, this is genius in how you're sharing a message [chuckles] around-"

    25. JCJames Cameron32:58

        Right

    26. JSJay Shetty32:58

        ... you know, uh, water wildlife that we just don't treat well anymore.

    27. JCJames Cameron33:03

        We won't protect what we don't love and care about, right? And so this... I'm, I'm working on a very small part of a much bigger project that's being run by a marine biologist named David Gruber, and he's, he's working with people who are, are in AI and machine learning, kind of more s-side of AI, th- and but they're using some large language model technology as well to decode, um, whale, whale vocalizations.

    28. JSJay Shetty33:33

        Mm.

    29. JCJames Cameron33:33

        So they've got thousands of hours of sperm whale vocalizations, and they've got some context footage of what socially they're doing, and they're decoding their, their, uh, clicks, which are called codas, and their click sequences, and they're finding that they have verbs, they have syntax, they have complex language, at least as complex as human language.

    30. JSJay Shetty33:53

        Mm.
12. 38:58 – 39:14

    Can AI Ever Develop Consciousness?

    1. JSJay Shetty38:58

       worlds you create, and when I was researching your story and learning about just how many failures and moments you've had to quit and give up, and again, I think about our listeners, and I think about them-

    2. JCJames Cameron39:08

       Sully's never quits

    3. JSJay Shetty39:09

       ... Sully's never quit. There you go.

    4. JCJames Cameron39:10

       [laughs]

    5. JSJay Shetty39:11

       And, and even what you just mentioned right now about your own experience with your

13. 39:14 – 44:33

    What Creation Really Requires

    1. JSJay Shetty39:14

       father, and then becoming a father and what that looks like-

    2. JCJames Cameron39:16

       Mm-hmm

    3. JSJay Shetty39:17

       ... was... Are the worlds you create worlds that you didn't have or did have for you?

    4. JCJames Cameron39:22

       I think both.

    5. JSJay Shetty39:23

       Both.

    6. JCJames Cameron39:23

       Right? Thing... I mean, the thing that I've tried to do in the Avatar films is create a dynamic range of experience from ecstatic to terrifying to heart-wrenching, from despair to, to joy, all of those, all of those things. I think movies are pretty good at creating a state, maybe a state of dread or something like that, but I don't think they're good at taking you on that rollercoaster ride that more is the way our, our real existence is. So I wanted to have a- amazing moments of beauty. I think beauty gets forgotten in movies these days. You know, everything is about threat and conflict and all that. Um, but I also wanted to take you on an emotional journey where you get to places that are, that are, that are, uh, either terrifying or, or heart-wrenching through loss or, or whatever. Um, and that's all dependent on performance.

    7. JSJay Shetty40:16

       Mm.

    8. JCJames Cameron40:17

       You know, that's all dependent on the actors. The actors are our, our path through this, our conduit. We s- we see it all through, through their eyes, you know? So for me, the, the real act of creation, everybody is quite enamored of the world-building because that's what they see. They see the end result. But for me, it's about getting those characters down on the page, bringing it in with my actors, and, and the beauty of the, of the two sequels is that I was writing for, for actors I knew.

    9. JSJay Shetty40:45

       Mm-hmm.

    10. JCJames Cameron40:45

        And I could hear the way they'd say it, and I didn't feel the dialogue was right until I knew that Slang, Stephen Lang, who plays Quaritch, would say it that way, you know, or Sam would say it that way, or, or Zoe would say it that way. And then, of course, I threw a new element in, which is Oona Chaplin, who, you know, who plays Varang, who is, you know, pretty, pretty terrifying character-

    11. JSJay Shetty41:09

        Yeah, for sure

    12. JCJames Cameron41:09

        ... at times. And, uh, I was making her up out of whole cloth, obviously. I didn't know who the actor was that was gonna, gonna play her. But that's the part where I think that engagement that you were talking about, it's not just sensory and visual. It's also heartfelt.

    13. JSJay Shetty41:26

        Mm-hmm.

    14. JCJames Cameron41:26

        Right?

    15. JSJay Shetty41:27

        Yeah, I would have to agree.

    16. JCJames Cameron41:28

        And, and, uh, we bring our own human experience to it every time we walk into a movie theater. And I also think a critical part of the en- engagement is the theatrical experience. So a lot was made, you know, dur- when... During the rise of, of, like, DVD and Blu-ray and all that, a lot was made about the fact that, "Oh, well, you don't have a screen that big. Your sound isn't that good. The theater is a better experience." But we're at the point now where your, your probably your home TV set and your home soundbar and everything is as good as what, what you're gonna see in a movie theater. Um, so that goes away. So what's left?

    17. JSJay Shetty42:03

        Mm.

    18. JCJames Cameron42:04

        What's left is in our day-to-day life, we're very fragmented and scattered and, and distracted and, and multitasking, and we're, we're, we're scrolling and, and, you know, and we're typing, and we're connected and, um, uh, you know, multi-channeling all simultaneously. Very rarely do we just sit in a meditative state and just focus. You know, people who practice mindfulness and yoga and things like that, they know how to do that, um, and they do it to clear their mind. But what a... But how often do we do it where we focus on a received experience? You know, some people will sit and read a novel for hours and hours. I think they're a dying breed, unfortunately. Um, but the movie theater is one of the last bastions of, of a f- focused entertainment-

    19. JSJay Shetty42:54

        Yeah

    20. JCJames Cameron42:54

        ... where we m- make a deal with ourselves. Before we go there, before we leave our homes, we make a deal with ourselves that for two or three hours we're gonna be undistracted, and then all of a sudden it's like the world goes away-

    21. JSJay Shetty43:07

        Mm-hmm

    22. JCJames Cameron43:07

        ... and you're on that journey, and nothing else matters-

    23. JSJay Shetty43:10

        Mm

    24. JCJames Cameron43:10

        ... for that brief period of time. And I think that's the, the real magic of the theatrical experience, and it boils down to one simple thing.You don't have a remote

    25. JSJay Shetty43:21

        [laughs]

    26. JCJames Cameron43:22

        It's that simple.

    27. JSJay Shetty43:23

        Yeah.

    28. JCJames Cameron43:23

        You can't pause it.

    29. JSJay Shetty43:25

        Yeah.

    30. JCJames Cameron43:25

        You can't go order a pizza. You can't pause it and go to the bathroom. You can't be in a room with other family members who are talking, and you pause it so you can hear their lame comment.
14. 44:33 – 47:16

    How to Bounce Back After Failure

    1. JSJay Shetty44:33

       finally found their way, you went from truck driver, starting to make films-

    2. JCJames Cameron44:37

       Yeah, yeah

    3. JSJay Shetty44:37

       ... made this small movie, you get fired off a job.

    4. JCJames Cameron44:40

       Yeah.

    5. JSJay Shetty44:41

       That almost feels like, all right, well, this is the end of the road. You, you said you felt that way.

    6. JCJames Cameron44:45

       It felt that way. It felt that way, and it felt like there was, going into my first directing gig that I did get fired off of after, I think, six or seven days of shooting, and not for incompetence it turns out. It turns out that I was being set up the whole time, and when I found that out later, it sort of put it in perspective. But I believed at the time, I internalized that I was not doing it well, you know. And I thought, "Oh, crap, now I'm worse off than if I hadn't taken the job in the first place. Now I'm at negative 10. I could've just been at zero."

    7. JSJay Shetty45:16

       [laughs]

    8. JCJames Cameron45:17

       "Now I have to dig out of a hole to get to zero."

    9. JSJay Shetty45:19

       Yeah.

    10. JCJames Cameron45:20

        You know? Um, and so then I knew I had to do something extraordinary or something different. I couldn't wait for a directing gig to come to me. I had to create it for myself, and that's when I wrote The Terminator. I thought, "I have to write something original, something that I could plausibly make, that wouldn't have an enormous budget," and it was scaled to, you know, conventional locations, present day, city streets, that sort of thing, so that we could do it relatively cheaply. But I, but I also thought, "All right, but I've got to inject into it. It can't just be, you know, a, a simple drama. I've got to inject into it something that I bring my, as expertise." So my expertise was in design and in visual effects. And I thought, "All right, so I've got to create a careful balance here." The visual effects have to be very limited, but they have to be powerful so that they're, so that it's not a ridiculous budget like a Star Wars movie that I knew we couldn't afford or nobody would hire me for. So then I came up with the idea of a, a, a futuristic technology that gets injected into the present day, time travel, right? So there was a, a logic to the, the story elements that I was playing with-

    11. JSJay Shetty46:27

        Yes. Yeah

    12. JCJames Cameron46:28

        ... that was based entirely on being practical and trying to get a gig. So would I have come up with that story if I didn't have those constraints? I don't know. Maybe not, you know? But it all worked out. Um, so I thought, "All right, I want this extraordinary thing that requires, you know, animation and, and design, this terminator, but I'll have it come from the future, which I don't have to see."

    13. JSJay Shetty46:50

        [laughs]

    14. JCJames Cameron46:50

        "And I'll just see present day. You know, we can just use available light, street lighting, and, and that, that sort of thing," which is kinda how we did it.

    15. JSJay Shetty46:58

        That, that's such a fascinating point you just made, though, that constraints actually led-

    16. JCJames Cameron47:02

        Right

    17. JSJay Shetty47:02

        ... to brilliant creativity.

    18. JCJames Cameron47:04

        Right.

    19. JSJay Shetty47:04

        It wasn't the other way around, and often we get lost in the trap of when I have resources-

    20. JCJames Cameron47:09

        Right

    21. JSJay Shetty47:09

        ... I'll make a masterpiece.

    22. JCJames Cameron47:11

        Yeah, yeah.

    23. JSJay Shetty47:11

        And you made something that's timeless.

    24. JCJames Cameron47:13

        Yeah. That's really good. I mean, you know, uh, the resources will come

15. 47:16 – 51:28

    Creating Within Constraints

    1. JCJames Cameron47:16

       eventually, and that brings its own curse because now you can do anything.

    2. JSJay Shetty47:19

       Mm.

    3. JCJames Cameron47:19

       And when you have infinite choice, you could get paralyzed, right? And an, and an Avatar movie is an exercise in limiting choice-

    4. JSJay Shetty47:27

       Mm

    5. JCJames Cameron47:27

       ... because when you work with performance capture, I get a great performance, but then I can put the camera anywhere I want. I can cut it anywhere I want. I'm not constrained by just the footage that we were able to grab that day before the sun set. It becomes a kind of a, a problem of infinite choice. I think it makes, makes you a better filmmaker 'cause now why is the camera going right here? Not because that's the farthest back I can move before my ass hits the wall, and that's the widest shot I can do. Why is it here and not back there or not over there, you know? And so you, you... It, it forces you to become quite rigorous about your aesthetic, you know. That's a separate problem from getting great performance, by the way. And the weird thing about an Avatar movie, it's a little weird, is we separate performance from cinematography. We do all the cinematography later.

    6. JSJay Shetty48:15

       Mm-hmm.

    7. JCJames Cameron48:16

       I don't even think about it. I don't think about the camera angles when I'm working with the actors. I know I'll be able to shoot it. I don't know exactly how I'll shoot it, but I'm just, I just care about the hear- heart and the soul and the authenticity of the moment-

    8. JSJay Shetty48:27

       Mm-hmm

    9. JCJames Cameron48:27

       ... with the actors. Now I'm done with them. Now they're all working on another movie. Now it's like, okay, am I on a wide shot, c- close shot? Am I on a long lens, short lens? Is the camera moving? Is it still? Is it raining? Is it not? You know, is it night? Is it day? And you can make all those decisions later with that nucleus, that sort of beating heart of the performance, but you can interpret it many, many different ways.

    10. JSJay Shetty48:51

        Mm.

    11. JCJames Cameron48:51

        So that, that idea of, you know, infinite choice, it can be paralyzing or it can make you more rigorous, and, and it forces you to define to yourself and to the others you're working with, other editors, other designers, um, why you're doing it that way. And sometimes I just, I just talk.

    12. JSJay Shetty49:11

        [laughs]

    13. JCJames Cameron49:11

        It's like, okay, you know, I'll just like, I'll talk while I'm working on it. It's like, okay, I can be here. I can be there. I can put the camera here. What do you guys think, you know? And they're like, "Well, I like the wider shot." It's like, "Okay, let's do the wider shot." It gets more inclusive-

    14. JSJay Shetty49:24

        Mm

    15. JCJames Cameron49:24

        ... in a way. Not that I'm doubting myself, but it's like why not? Why wouldn't you be inclusive?

    16. JSJay Shetty49:29

        Yeah, absolutely. And, and you were soCommitted to that, that you sold it for $1 and rejected-

    17. JCJames Cameron49:35

        [laughs]

    18. JSJay Shetty49:35

        ... all of these amazing studio budgets because they wouldn't let you direct it.

    19. JCJames Cameron49:39

        This is going back to The Terminator.

    20. JSJay Shetty49:41

        Yeah.

    21. JCJames Cameron49:41

        And you're talking about the fact that I, I made a rights deal with Gale Anne Hurd, who was, uh, another up-and-comer in the same super low tier as I was. And, uh, you know, she had the eye of the tiger, and I recognized in her the same thing she recognized in me, which is that we could m- we could get this done. We could make something happen together. And so I sold her the rights for a dollar in exchange for a promise, and that promise was worth a lot more than a dollar to me, which was, "You will never proceed with this movie." I mean, I could've written a 20-page contract to do it, uh, but it was, uh, like a blood oath almost literally. I don't think we actually cut our hands, but it was pretty much that.

    22. JSJay Shetty50:23

        [laughs]

    23. JCJames Cameron50:24

        And, uh, and this is before we were romantically involved. This was just us, you know, a nascent producer and a nascent director. I said, "You will never make this movie without me as a director, and I will never make this movie without you as the producer." And man, they tried to split that team. They tried to get her on the rights and, and not... and get another director, you know. And there were times when, when Gale was beating them up so much on the budget, they took me aside and said, "Look, we'll make the movie with you, but we gotta get rid of her." And I'm like, "Nope, that ain't gonna happen." And she said, "Nope, that ain't gonna happen." So in a way, everything else flowed from that, that first film. And so that was, you know, that was a dollar well spent.

    24. JSJay Shetty51:03

        Yeah. That's, uh, that's... I, I love that story. It just, every time I hear you tell it from when I was doing research and listening to you tell it, and even hearing it now, I'm just like, there's such a... today, there's such a fixation on getting what you deserve-

    25. JCJames Cameron51:16

        Yeah

    26. JSJay Shetty51:16

        ... and demanding what you deserve, and I think sometimes it sets you up for failure because you could be waiting a long time for someone to give you what you deserve.

    27. JCJames Cameron51:24

        Yeah.

    28. JSJay Shetty51:25

        And your career is this constant, "Well, I'll build

16. 51:28 – 53:34

    Learning What You Can Negotiate

    1. JSJay Shetty51:28

       what I deserve, or I'll, I'll take it myself."

    2. JCJames Cameron51:30

       You know, the simple answer is you don't deserve anything. It's just a question of what you can negotiate for yourself and what you can prove, prove to the world, you know, that you're, you're capable of, right? And then, and then all, then the money will flow from that, and the, you know, all of those things will flow from that. I never was in it for the money. In a sense, I'm still not, you know. Uh, it's a consequence of doing the job well and reaching people and communicating, you know. Um, I am a commercial filmmaker. I don't try to do something that's intentionally obscure or intentionally so kind of, uh, intellectual that, you know, that it doesn't connect for the majority of the audience. I'm a bell curve guy, you know. It's like I wanna, I wanna hit that sweet spot in the middle of the bell curve where the, where I'm communicating with the greatest number of people, and there will be some people for whom it is, it is beneath them to even consider enjoying an, an Avatar movie, and there are some people that just don't get it-

    3. JSJay Shetty52:26

       [laughs]

    4. JCJames Cameron52:26

       [laughs] On the, uh, on the other end. You know what I mean?

    5. JSJay Shetty52:29

       Yeah. Yeah.

    6. JCJames Cameron52:29

       But I'm, I'm, I'm looking at that bell curve, and I think there are some filmmakers that, that want to indicate that they're smarter than the audience and ch- d- challenge them to try to keep up and pirouette their intelligence. Um, not to say they're not intelligent, but come on, guys. It's entertainment. [laughs]

    7. JSJay Shetty52:49

       Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

    8. JCJames Cameron52:50

       You know? It, it can have deeper meaning. I mean, I, I like to have thematic layering, you know, and I like to have things that mean something to me, and if people pick up on it, great. But I won't make the story hinge on that.

    9. JSJay Shetty53:02

       Mm.

    10. JCJames Cameron53:02

        You know? Um, so I don't know. I may- maybe it's that drive-in movie, you know, col- College of, uh, Cinematic Knowledge, the, the drive-in movie theaters of Orange County paying off.

    11. JSJay Shetty53:13

        [laughs]

    12. JCJames Cameron53:14

        You know? [laughs]

    13. JSJay Shetty53:15

        I, I feel like everyone looks at you, and even these examples you're talking about, there's such a... People would say, you know, James Cameron's a risk-taker. He takes big risks and... But do you see yourself that way? How do you, how do you... I feel like it's something more than that.

    14. JCJames Cameron53:27

        Well, I think, I think it's not a question of taking a risk for risk's sake, but I do think the biggest risk as an

17. 53:34 – 1:01:32

    Are You a Risk Taker?

    1. JCJames Cameron53:34

       artist is to not take risks because then you're just doing what you've done and what you know and, and/or what other people have done, which is even worse, you know, just in, being in a, in a kind of a comfort zone of mediocrity. Um, so yeah, I think, I think you do take risks, but having taken that risk, you then do everything within your power to make sure that you are communicating, that it is working, um, that you're not jeopardizing large amounts of other people's money by doing something foolish.

    2. JSJay Shetty54:04

       Mm.

    3. JCJames Cameron54:04

       You know? Titanic was a risk, you know. It was a, a very, very expensive film in which basically everybody dies, [laughs] you know, and it was a period piece, and it was three hours long. The only successful film previously that had been three hours long that was a commercial film was, uh, a Best Picture winner, which was Dances with Wolves.

    4. JSJay Shetty54:26

       Mm.

    5. JCJames Cameron54:27

       I always pronounce it Dances with Wolves because it was a name.

    6. JSJay Shetty54:30

       [laughs]

    7. JCJames Cameron54:30

       You know? So yeah, I always imagined it hyphenated, not Dances with Wolves-

    8. JSJay Shetty54:34

       Yeah

    9. JCJames Cameron54:34

       ... which is what most people say. Um, but, um, and I don't know if that's accurate. I, I, you know, I, I never asked anybody, but-

    10. JSJay Shetty54:42

        [laughs]

    11. JCJames Cameron54:42

        ... it probably is. Uh, but, um, and so we, we were in uncharted territory. I mean, we went in knowing it was gonna be a long film, and that it's a tragic film, and that it's a tragic love story. Um, pretty risky in a sense.

    12. JSJay Shetty54:59

        Mm-hmm.

    13. JCJames Cameron54:59

        You know? It certainly didn't follow any of the commercial paradigms of the time. And we reached a point after we went over budget, even though the film was looking pretty good in the dailies and in the rough cuts, we reached a point where the studio was utterly convinced it was only a question of whether they were gonna lose $50 million or $150 million. And they were so dead set on an outcome, they almost manifested the outcome they dreaded because of their lack of faith in the film. I even almost, in a way, lost faith in the film being commercial.But I never lost faith in it being artistically correct.

    14. JSJay Shetty55:35

        Mm.

    15. JCJames Cameron55:36

        And that's when I... If, it's, the story's been told, but it's actually true. I literally had a razor blade taped to my Avid screen with a little sign that said, "Use in case film sucks."

    16. JSJay Shetty55:47

        [laughs]

    17. JCJames Cameron55:48

        'Cause I knew that the only way out of this was through, and the only way through was to make the best possible movie you could make. Even if I didn't make a dime off it, even if it failed commercially, it had to be good, and it had to deliver on, on those artistic principles that we went in with. I knew I had a great cast. I had great performances, you know, and it turned out, uh, from, from the moment James Horner played the first... He had, he wrote three themes and just reiterated them throughout the score. He wrote three themes, and he played them for me on his piano in March of 1997, and that's when I knew I had a movie, 'cause I cried on all three themes.

    18. JSJay Shetty56:30

        Mm.

    19. JCJames Cameron56:31

        First one, I was just like, "Holy shit, dude. It's amazing," you know? And I said, "We've got a score." He said, "I haven't written a score yet." I said, "We've got a score." And I wasn't wrong. Uh, I knew from that moment that it was gonna be great. And yeah, sure, he, he, he wrote it, he orchestrated it, he went out, he recorded it with a 100-piece orchestra. But I knew from that simple piano melody that we were good. And, uh, and I think at that point I started to have some faith that the movie itself would deliver on what I intended it to deliver. You know, there's a funny point in movies. It's okay if I just kind of-

    20. JSJay Shetty57:08

        I love it

    21. JCJames Cameron57:09

        ... roam.

    22. JSJay Shetty57:09

        Please. That's my favorite bit of podcast.

    23. JCJames Cameron57:11

        Yeah. Okay.

    24. JSJay Shetty57:11

        Please.

    25. JCJames Cameron57:11

        There's a certain point in making a movie where it's not your movie anymore. I think it's my movie when I write it. I think the second I cast it, it's not my movie anymore. And the second I'm working with designers and we're building sets and all that, now it's got its own momentum, it's got its own life. And there's a point in post-production where it's being received. And I don't mean that necessarily in a mystical way, although it might be. I don't know. Um, but, um, it's being received from the, the group's creative energy, what the actors did, what the designers did, what the camera operator did, um, you know, what the DP did. And it's just up to me to, to, to see it and see it emerging, and then help assist. You know, clear, clear the debris out of the way, get it to, to kind of emerge. And the, and I felt that more so, uh, especially on these last two Avatar films, than I've ever felt before. You got a long film. It's half an hour longer than it could be. You've gotta take stuff out. So you're paring away and, and themes are emerging and getting stronger. And it even got quite snaky on this last one because I felt the themes emerging so strongly that I actually wrote new scenes and asked the actors to come back and reshaped the whole thing. For example, there was a scene in the script which we captured where Jake teaches all the Na'vi how to fire machine guns.

    26. JSJay Shetty58:36

        Mm-hmm.

    27. JCJames Cameron58:36

        I was wrong. I didn't wa- Uh, that's not what the movie was supposed to be saying. And so the power, the dark, grim power that comes from when Quaritch arms the ash people-

    28. JSJay Shetty58:45

        Mm-hmm

    29. JCJames Cameron58:46

        ... and you see them lift those weapons up and you say, "Oh my God, this whole thing's going wrong."

    30. JSJay Shetty58:50

        Mm-hmm.
18. 1:01:32 – 1:04:15

    Recognizing Consciousness Beyond Humans

    1. JSJay Shetty1:01:32

       ... for righteousness and duty.

    2. JCJames Cameron1:01:33

       For righteousness and duty.

    3. JSJay Shetty1:01:35

       And so it's, it makes a lot of s-

    4. JCJames Cameron1:01:36

       Yeah.

    5. JSJay Shetty1:01:36

       It, it definitely resonates-

    6. JCJames Cameron1:01:37

       Yeah

    7. JSJay Shetty1:01:37

       ... what you're saying, that-

    8. JCJames Cameron1:01:38

       Yeah

    9. JSJay Shetty1:01:38

       ... there is a need.

    10. JCJames Cameron1:01:40

        Yeah, so I'm an action filmmaker, so I'm, you know, action. I mean, if you think about it, action is just, uh, a, a candy-coated term for violence.Right? When it's righteous violence practiced by the good guy in de- in defense of good people and so on, it, you know, we spend a lot of time justifying it to ourselves, and I think a lot of the classic cinematic justifications aren't really sufficient, um, which is why I went down the road of having the Tulkun-

    11. JSJay Shetty1:02:08

        Mm-hmm

    12. JCJames Cameron1:02:08

        ... be utter pacifists, where they have rejected any kind of violent, um, confrontation up to and almost including their own final destruction.

    13. JSJay Shetty1:02:19

        Mm-hmm.

    14. JCJames Cameron1:02:20

        But they, at the very brink, they decide that there are, there is something-

    15. JSJay Shetty1:02:25

        Mm

    16. JCJames Cameron1:02:25

        ... that, that they have to rise up for. And when they see the horror of what's, what's happened to Tonok-

    17. JSJay Shetty1:02:31

        Yeah

    18. JCJames Cameron1:02:31

        ... and Payakan's clan and all that, which I think is quite a heart-wrenching scene even though-

    19. JSJay Shetty1:02:35

        Oh, that's like, yeah. When you make me feel for Payakan-

    20. JCJames Cameron1:02:38

        Right

    21. JSJay Shetty1:02:38

        ... I'm like, that's like-

    22. JCJames Cameron1:02:39

        Right

    23. JSJay Shetty1:02:39

        ... you know, because now you're not even feeling for something that looks remotely human.

    24. JCJames Cameron1:02:43

        Right. Exactly. But so- but we're able to see consciousness in, in others, in the eyes, you know-

    25. JSJay Shetty1:02:49

        Yeah

    26. JCJames Cameron1:02:49

        ... in dogs, in, in, in the great apes, you know. I think it's a little harder in birds, even though they're pretty damn smart.

    27. JSJay Shetty1:02:57

        Mm.

    28. JCJames Cameron1:02:57

        Um, whales, though, have a soulfulness, and maybe, maybe to some extent we project it onto them, but I don't think so. There's something very calm-

    29. JSJay Shetty1:03:07

        Mm

    30. JCJames Cameron1:03:07

        ... about whales, you know.
19. 1:04:15 – 1:09:57

    Exploring the Depths of the Ocean

    1. JCJames Cameron1:04:15

       so after Titanic was a big hit and I was questioning, you know, is this even important? Is Hollywood even important? It seems like such a glitzy game, and, and, and, and it seems kind of quite fatuous. And, and at about that time, I, I wound up on the NASA Advisory Council, believe it or not, and I looked around a room full of people who were very, uh, intelligent, most of them, all of them really, better educated than me, with a strong sense of purpose, right? That they were doing something extraordinary. They were exploring space. And none of them cared about Hollywood. They didn't even know what was happening. They... "Oh, the Oscars, what's that?" Oh, yeah. You know, it's where they... And I could name a movie star they wouldn't even recognize. I mean, sure, there, there's always little, you know, movie fans here and there, but it just didn't matter to them. It didn't matter to them at all. They were doing something far more important, and that was a real bucket of cold water. It's like, oh, all these things, we live in this little self-referential bubble that we think is so important, and it just isn't. And, uh, so I thought, you know, maybe I'll just explore around a little bit, um, just in life, you know. And, and because I had gotten to do an expedition to the wreck site where I was really now becoming conversant with tr- real deep ocean technology, I thought, "Why don't I just go down that road?"

    2. JSJay Shetty1:05:34

       Mm.

    3. JCJames Cameron1:05:34

       I know everybody. You know, I know all the scientists and researchers and submersible people and everything. So I just started creating expeditions and building new tactical systems, cameras and lighting systems and exploratory vehicles. And, and the other thing I liked about it is the ocean is unforgiving. Either your math is right or your equipment fails. It'll implode or, or the electronics will flood, and it won't work, and you'll come back with nothing. And that's not a critic's opinion, you know?

    4. JSJay Shetty1:06:04

       It's-

    5. JCJames Cameron1:06:04

       It's when I, I came up with this idea-

    6. JSJay Shetty1:06:06

       ... [laughs]

    7. JCJames Cameron1:06:06

       ... this principle that, you know, the second law of thermodynamics is not an opinion. It's a law. It's not some critic's opinion. It's not some journalist's opinion. It's not even a fickle audience member's opinion or some, some, you know, uh, some blogger's trolling opinion, you know? Um, it either works or it doesn't. And I, I, I really enjoyed immersing myself in a world of hard rules. You succeed or you fail, not based on, on your art or your creativity or somebody else's subjective opinion of your art, because the two don't exist without each other. That's the crazy thing. So as an artist, you bare your soul, and you can be utterly rejected, you know? But ultimately, the point of art is to communicate with other humans. They may hate it, you know, so you, you, you put yourself at risk. I thought, you know what? I'm just gonna go into an empirical world, a Cartesian world, where it either works or it doesn't based on good engineering. And that was good, and I learned some really important human lessons in that world as well, 'cause when you're offshore with a small team, it's all about respect and cohesion and, and that bond. And when you come back to shore, you can't even explain to people how hard it was or why it worked or what it took, you know, but that bond exists between those people. And then I realized, okay, we're only as good as our team. And when I-- after Titanic, I put together a team to do the impossible, which was Avatar. Nobody had ever made a film like that. It was a new form of cinema. And I remember we, we, we fell on our ass some of the first things we tried. We were face down on the ground, and, uh, we'd stop in the middle of a production day and pull out a table and sit around it, and there'd be a bunch of glum faces because it wasn't working. And I'd say, "Guys, this may seem like the hardest day of the production. This is gonna be the day you rememberBecause this is the day we write page 38 of the manual that tells the rest of the world how this stuff works, and we're gonna do it, and we're gonna figure it out. It was like, you know, Sully's never quit.

    8. JSJay Shetty1:08:09

       [laughs]

    9. JCJames Cameron1:08:09

       Right? But, and then we did, and we figured it out, and then there's such a feeling of pride and cohesiveness in the group after that, and you start to feel like, "Okay, bring the next challenge. We'll figure it out." And the team spirit and the team morale is so high now. This was 19 years ago in 2006. The team spirit and the, and the cohesiveness is so high now. People re- they, they hated when it all came to an end here a few months ago as people dropped off one by one as the project was winding down, and everybody just can't wait to get back to the next one. Now, I don't know artistically as a director if that's something I wanna do right away next. There's a pretty strong... I feel a strong pressure on my shoulders to do it, to bring that team back together-

    10. JSJay Shetty1:08:57

        Mm.

    11. JCJames Cameron1:08:57

        ... because it's so important for them, you know? And that's not a bad reason to do something at all, you know? To make other people happy is not a bad reason to do something or to make other people feel fulfilled. Um, but I also have other things I wanna do as well. So it's a little bit of a, it's a little bit of going off a cliff. I, I, I've, I've told Suzy, my wife, that, um, I feel like I'm Wile E. Coyote in a Roadrunner cartoon and I just ran off the cliff.

    12. JSJay Shetty1:09:25

        [laughs]

    13. JCJames Cameron1:09:25

        And I haven't hit the ground yet.

    14. JSJay Shetty1:09:26

        Yeah.

    15. JCJames Cameron1:09:26

        There's that moment where my legs are pinwheeling in the air, you know?

    16. JSJay Shetty1:09:30

        Yeah.

    17. JCJames Cameron1:09:31

        Uh, but that's okay. That's okay. The scariest moments are always the moments of the greatest opportunity-

    18. JSJay Shetty1:09:37

        Mm

    19. JCJames Cameron1:09:37

        ... I think.

    20. JSJay Shetty1:09:38

        How, how do you, like, when you're building a universe with people, you're building lives and hearts and worlds that connect on such a deep level, you... I feel like when I'm listening to you, I'm like, everything you do is highly emotional and emotive-

    21. JCJames Cameron1:09:52

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

    22. JSJay Shetty1:09:52

        ... and heartfelt and deep, and you can't help but cry when you're watching

20. 1:09:57 – 1:14:41

    Letting Go of the Work You’ve Created

    1. JSJay Shetty1:09:57

       your work, you know? Maybe not Terminator, but, but what follows, or maybe, maybe, maybe. I was just-

    2. JCJames Cameron1:10:01

       Oh, Terminator 2

    3. JSJay Shetty1:10:03

       I know. I was just-

    4. JCJames Cameron1:10:03

       When the Terminator goes... Come on. When he goes down-

    5. JSJay Shetty1:10:05

       I knew you were gonna get me

    6. JCJames Cameron1:10:06

       ... when he goes down into the steel-

    7. JSJay Shetty1:10:08

       Yeah

    8. JCJames Cameron1:10:08

       ... and his POV goes byew to nothing.

    9. JSJay Shetty1:10:11

       Yeah.

    10. JCJames Cameron1:10:11

        Come on.

    11. JSJay Shetty1:10:12

        Yes.

    12. JCJames Cameron1:10:12

        People, people tear up.

    13. JSJay Shetty1:10:13

        Yes. Yes. No, and so you see that, and I'm like, it feels like the emotion of creating it, whatever we're getting out of it is because the emotion that's creating it is going into it.

    14. JCJames Cameron1:10:24

        Yes.

    15. JSJay Shetty1:10:24

        And this team that you are curating is bringing all of that emotion, as you said-

    16. JCJames Cameron1:10:29

        Right

    17. JSJay Shetty1:10:29

        ... whether it was the Pantheons that are building the, you know-

    18. JCJames Cameron1:10:33

        Mm-hmm

    19. JSJay Shetty1:10:33

        ... the physical buildings in the movie, or whether it's the emotion that the characters are feeling and Tuk is feeling, and et cetera. How do you even start to detach from that as a team when you've been immersed in it for decades at this point?

    20. JCJames Cameron1:10:48

        Maybe you don't. [laughs] Maybe you just keep going. I don't know. Well, look, I mean, there, there are a number of milestones here that have to be met. First of all, the film has to succeed financially, and that's not a given. Everybody just assumes it's a no-brainer, but the theatrical marketplace has been dwindling and, and collapsing about 35%, and it hasn't rebounded, and people's habit patterns have changed. And so the thing that I grew up and, and, and love and, and feel such, um, a strong sense of passion for may be be- becoming obsolete, maybe. And the cost of making movies is continuously going up, and the s- and the demand is falling. So that's a little bit of a death spiral right there, you know? And so maybe it's, maybe it's going to be okay. We were sort of successful. If we can do the next one cheaper, we can continue, right? And then there's also that wild card. You know, there are other projects that I have that I've been sort of sitting on in the, in the background, and there's a thing that I wanna do about Hiroshima. I bought a book recently, but it's a story I've been f- following and, and, you know, excavating and researching for really my whole adult life. It's something that I really feel strongly I need to do at some point. It's not a big film. Sounds like it would be, but it's not a big film in the sense of an Avatar film. It's not a four-year commitment. It might be a one-year commitment. Um, so I n- I need to do that, and so, you know-

    21. JSJay Shetty1:12:12

        Why, why, why is that so meaningful to you? What about it?

    22. JCJames Cameron1:12:15

        I just think that we live in this world... I mean, I think Kathryn Bigelow's film title is, it's kinda growing on me, The House of Dynamite. It's like we live in a house... Imagine you live in a house and you feel perfectly normal, and you go about your business, and you're chopping onions for the guacamole, and you're gonna watch your favorite show, but the basement is filled with dynamite, and it could go off at any moment. That's the world that we live in, you know? And that, it hits that metaphor. And so, uh, it's not a metaphor. It's, it's our world. So I, I f- I feel that we have a, a kind of a systematic forgetting of history, you know, just at, at that remove, and we're enough removed from the event of, of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I think people need to be reminded what these weapons really are and what they really do. Of course, the, the punchline of the movie is gonna be the card at the end that says, "There are 12,000 nuclear warheads deployed in the world today. Each one is 100 to 500 times more powerful than the one that destroyed Hiroshima." And you're gonna witness it, and you're gonna go through it with the main characters, and it's not gonna be pretty. It might be a hard film to watch. In fact, it might be my least successful film, but I just feel it's, it's that, that's that thing of duty.

    23. JSJay Shetty1:13:26

        Mm.

    24. JCJames Cameron1:13:26

        You know? You're all about purpose. We define our own purpose. You know? We choose purpose for ourselves, and it doesn't all have to be, you know, obviously, uh, benevolent like, you know, maybe helping out a soup kitchen and-

    25. JSJay Shetty1:13:40

        Mm-hmm

    26. JCJames Cameron1:13:40

        ... and, and easing the pain of others. It might be something that's more of a warning that helps, helps guide us away from the rocks of de- of, of destruction, of civilization.

    27. JSJay Shetty1:13:52

        Yeah. Mm.

    28. JCJames Cameron1:13:52

        As an artist-I think it's important to consider these things, you know-

    29. JSJay Shetty1:13:56

        Yeah

    30. JCJames Cameron1:13:56

        ... and not feel powerless, 'cause it's easy in a, in a world of eight billion people to feel powerless. And yet empirically I can look at it, oh, I'm reaching millions of people. I'm reaching hundreds of millions of people with a movie like Avatar. You know, maybe I w- I won't reach as many people with a movie like Ghosts of Hiroshima, but I'll reach some.
21. 1:14:41 – 1:21:28

    The Deeper Message Behind Films

    1. JSJay Shetty1:14:41

       to the movie, you could keep going.

    2. JCJames Cameron1:14:42

       Yeah.

    3. JSJay Shetty1:14:42

       Whether it's family, whether it's racism, whether it's equality, whether it's equity, whether it's, you know, whether it goes down all the way through to-

    4. JCJames Cameron1:14:51

       Yeah, absolutely

    5. JSJay Shetty1:14:51

       ... governmental politics that we're seeing today. I mean, the, the movie's filled with so many powerful messages.

    6. JCJames Cameron1:14:58

       Right. And just seeing each other. You know, it all, ultimately it all goes back to connection and empathy.

    7. JSJay Shetty1:15:02

       Is that the root?

    8. JCJames Cameron1:15:03

       Yeah, I think so. You know, there are two moments in the film where people say they see each other and they understand each other, and one gives you this feeling of vast dread when, [laughs] when Varang says she sees Quaritch, and she sees this vision of destruction and, uh, for herself. You know, she's, she's like, uh, you know, Kali. [laughs]

    9. JSJay Shetty1:15:25

       Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    10. JCJames Cameron1:15:26

        Right?

    11. JSJay Shetty1:15:26

        Yeah.

    12. JCJames Cameron1:15:27

        Uh, and then when Neytiri sees Spider, you know, um-

    13. JSJay Shetty1:15:32

        Finally

    14. JCJames Cameron1:15:32

        ... and there's a bridge across the two species, across that divide, across that, because she becomes quite a racist-

    15. JSJay Shetty1:15:38

        Mm-hmm

    16. JCJames Cameron1:15:38

        ... in the film, and that's by design.

    17. JSJay Shetty1:15:40

        Mm-hmm.

    18. JCJames Cameron1:15:40

        Uh, it's like we take our most beloved character and we challenge you-

    19. JSJay Shetty1:15:44

        Mm

    20. JCJames Cameron1:15:44

        ... to really walk in her shoes and go the hard yards of what loss and grief can do. And I think about all these people and everything that they've lost in the world, whether it's in Gaza or Sudan or Ukraine or wherever, and how does that not generate just a hatred that will span generations? Well, that's the cycle that we have to break, right? You know, Lo'ak, Lo'ak says something at the beginning, and it's kinda like a little cheeky to actually say your theme out loud, [laughs] you know, in the voiceover here. "I'm gonna tell you what the movie's about, okay?" Uh, you know, and he says the, the fire of ash leaves, uh, the fire of hate bring, leaves only the ash of grief.

    21. JSJay Shetty1:16:23

        Mm.

    22. JCJames Cameron1:16:23

        But he doesn't complete it, which is that from that ash of grief comes that fire of hate again, and the cycle perpetuates indefinitely. So how do you break it, right? That's the challenge I think that's presented in the movie.

    23. JSJay Shetty1:16:36

        Mm.

    24. JCJames Cameron1:16:36

        You know? How do you break it? And how you, how do you know when it's not about, about hatred and revenge, and when you fight defensively for the things that you value, you know, as opposed to offensively going out after somebody to punish them for revenge, to take what's theirs, you know. Um, and you see all of that happening in, in the world right now, all over the place. And, uh, you know, you wonder... This is, I'm gonna circle us back to AI for a second. The thing that will, the thing that the, the, the proponents of artificial super intelligence always say is, "Well, we'll, we'll manage the alignment problem. We'll align AI to our common good as human beings." But we can't agree on a damn thing. We can't agree on what's right and wrong, what's ethical, what's moral. Uh, you know, a Republican's idea of that is very different from a Democrat's. Uh, a Muslim, a Christian, a Hindu, you know, a, a, a Shintoist, whatever it is, everybody's got a different opinion, and we can't agree on anything. So how are we gonna suddenly form this wonderful moral consensus so we can teach it to something smarter than us that we can't control? I mean, if that's not the, the, the biggest recipe for disaster I've ever heard in my life, what is? You know. Now, I am a science fiction fan, and it always goes into the darkest possible, you know, scenario, because that's where science fiction goes, because it's meant to be a warning to us about possible futures. But okay, I mean, we're living in a science fiction world right now.

    25. JSJay Shetty1:18:12

        Mm.

    26. JCJames Cameron1:18:12

        You know? So I look at, I look at you, I look into your eyes, I see your s- kind of soulfulness and your enlightenment, and what, all the things that you do and why you do it, and I think, "All right, that's why we're gonna make it," because there are people who are practitioners of empathy and connection, and they're out there, and they are legion. They just don't ever seem to get into positions of power and, and, and, you know, the, uh, the, where it really makes a big, makes a big difference. It just seems like all the wrong people elevate. I don't know how you feel about that.

    27. JSJay Shetty1:18:45

        Yeah.

    28. JCJames Cameron1:18:45

        And I don't know if that keeps you up at night.

    29. JSJay Shetty1:18:47

        Yeah. Well, I, I think that's partly why I try and do what I do, because I think I saw that for a long time. And of course, what I love about the way you build character, which is true of me or anyone, is that no one's perfect, everyone's flawed, and has-

    30. JCJames Cameron1:19:01

        Exactly
22. 1:21:28 – 1:24:14

    Humanity’s Natural Capacity for Empathy

    1. JSJay Shetty1:21:28

       ... status and watch a movie about humanity and connection, but-

    2. JCJames Cameron1:21:33

       Well, you, you're using the term connection, and, and I think of that as an extension of our, our impulse to empathy. We have a natural human impulse toward empathy.

    3. JSJay Shetty1:21:43

       Yep.

    4. JCJames Cameron1:21:44

       I think we all have it, unless you're a psychopath, and that's 1% of the population. So 99% of the population has an impulse toward empathy. I think where empathy goes awry is that it- it's narrow and powerful-

    5. JSJay Shetty1:21:56

       Mm-hmm

    6. JCJames Cameron1:21:56

       ... as opposed to dif- more diffuse, right? So when we have, uh, an empathy for our family, for our children, for our friends, then everybody else starts to look like an enemy.

    7. JSJay Shetty1:22:09

       Mm-hmm.

    8. JCJames Cameron1:22:10

       And I think it's that narrow spotlight of empathy where, where it breaks down. On the other hand, we can hear a story about somebody in another state or another country, and all of a sudden we're weeping-

    9. JSJay Shetty1:22:20

       Mm-hmm

    10. JCJames Cameron1:22:20

        ... for that person because our mirror neuron allows us to feel their pain.

    11. JSJay Shetty1:22:25

        Yes.

    12. JCJames Cameron1:22:25

        Right? But we can't feel the pain of the world. Um, but we have to. We have to. We have to be able to expand it, not where it crushes us, but to where we don't see the, the other as an enemy-

    13. JSJay Shetty1:22:38

        Yes

    14. JCJames Cameron1:22:39

        ... but somebody who's maybe an equal victim with us of, you know, a, a kind of, um, a world that, uh, can go, can go against you. And, you know, medically, in any, any kind of moment, you know, things can go against you. And there are people that are less fortunate, people that are more fortunate. Um, but never... people never feel like they have enough. That's the problem. They never f- it's not that they're greedy, it's that they never have enough to feel completely secure and safe for their family.

    15. JSJay Shetty1:23:09

        Mm-hmm.

    16. JCJames Cameron1:23:10

        So there's a certain point where you have to be willing to risk your own family and risk your own comfort for the good of a, of a greater group, and that's a very, very hard place for, for most people to go.

    17. JSJay Shetty1:23:20

        Absolutely.

    18. JCJames Cameron1:23:21

        You know? But there's an image that I always wanted in one of the Avatar movies, which is seeing that world from orbit at night, where you see everything connected, you know?

    19. JSJay Shetty1:23:33

        Mm.

    20. JCJames Cameron1:23:33

        That those little glowing... You know, you s- you basically see the mind or the heart of Eywa, of that connected, connectedness. And so I managed to squeeze it in.

    21. JSJay Shetty1:23:42

        [laughs]

    22. JCJames Cameron1:23:42

        I managed to squeeze it into this, this film, and hopefully people will resonate, um, you know, for what it, what it means.

    23. JSJay Shetty1:23:49

        Absolutely.

    24. JCJames Cameron1:23:49

        What it's meant to me in any way.

    25. JSJay Shetty1:23:51

        James, uh, I have a warning from your team because you have to get off to an event.

    26. JCJames Cameron1:23:54

        Whoop, whoop, whoop. [laughs]

    27. JSJay Shetty1:23:55

        So I wanna, uh, end with a final five that we do with every guest. Uh, I could talk to you for hours, and I hope we do get to talk more offline, but, uh, we end every interview with these final five. They have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum.

    28. JCJames Cameron1:24:07

        Okay.

    29. JSJay Shetty1:24:08

        So James Cameron, these are-

    30. JCJames Cameron1:24:09

        I can, I can do a six paragraph long sentence, but... [laughs]
23. 1:24:14 – 1:31:13

    James on Final Five

    1. JSJay Shetty1:24:14

       guest. James Cameron, these are your final five. Question one: What is the best advice you've ever had or received?

    2. JCJames Cameron1:24:20

       I had a teacher that said, "You have unlimited potential." And he meant it.

    3. JSJay Shetty1:24:28

       Mm.

    4. JCJames Cameron1:24:29

       And it, it changed a lot for me.

    5. JSJay Shetty1:24:32

       It's a great answer.

    6. JCJames Cameron1:24:33

       Yeah.

    7. JSJay Shetty1:24:34

       Uh, question number two: What is the worst advice you ever had or received?

    8. JCJames Cameron1:24:40

       [laughs] Roger Corman told me to always sit down on set.

    9. JSJay Shetty1:24:45

       [laughs] Do you stand up a lot, I assume?

    10. JCJames Cameron1:24:48

        I never sit down. [laughs]

    11. JSJay Shetty1:24:50

        [laughs] That's a great answer. Uh, question number three: What's the hardest thing you've learned about yourself that shaped your art?

    12. JCJames Cameron1:24:59

        The movie is not more important than the process of working with people to make the movie.

    13. JSJay Shetty1:25:06

        Wow.

    14. JCJames Cameron1:25:07

        That took 40 years. No, maybe 30. [laughs]

    15. JSJay Shetty1:25:12

        The people are more important.

    16. JCJames Cameron1:25:13

        Yeah.

    17. JSJay Shetty1:25:14

        Wow. That's beautiful. Uh, question number four: Tell us the real reason why Jack couldn't fit on the door.

    18. JCJames Cameron1:25:22

        Ah, you went there. [laughs]

    19. JSJay Shetty1:25:24

        I had to.

    20. JCJames Cameron1:25:24

        Okay. W- this interview is over. [laughs]

    21. JSJay Shetty1:25:27

        [laughs] Yeah.

    22. JCJames Cameron1:25:28

        Um, because his chivalry demanded it.

    23. JSJay Shetty1:25:33

        [laughs] That's a great answer.

    24. JCJames Cameron1:25:35

        He loved her.

    25. JSJay Shetty1:25:37

        Yeah.

    26. JCJames Cameron1:25:37

        And he would not take a chance that they could both survive-

    27. JSJay Shetty1:25:40

        Mm

    28. JCJames Cameron1:25:40

        ... if they could both die.

    29. JSJay Shetty1:25:42

        That's a great answer.

    30. JCJames Cameron1:25:44

        Yeah, and-

Episode duration: 1:31:13