Jay & Radhi: If you feel lonely, you need to watch this.

Speaker 0:00 The, uh, male loneliness epidemic. Yeah, that's me

Jay Shetty 0:04 I'm so lonely. I just I got nobody to [laughs] talk to, unfortunately

Radhi Devlukia 0:10 I wanna be wanted. I wanna be loved. I wanna be appreciated

Jay Shetty 0:16 I don't have nobody to talk to, gang. I don't got nobody to comfort me, gang Why are men so lonely?

Radhi Devlukia 0:26 You don't need to have 100 people at your birthday party. You need three people that you can go to when you're in your hardest moments

Jay Shetty 0:32 15% of US men reported having no close friends

Radhi Devlukia 0:36 One of my friends said that one of her biggest icks is seeing a man cry

Jay Shetty 0:40 Being vulnerable has been a long-term difficulty

Radhi Devlukia 0:44 These days, women seem to want a man who is emotionally available, but not emotional

Jay Shetty 0:49 Sometimes I just don't feel seen

Radhi Devlukia 0:50 Sometimes you do have to go

Radhi Devlukia 0:52 outside of what you've been used to if you are trying something new with yourself

Jay Shetty 0:55 As a man, if you're listening to this right now and you're feeling lonely, I want you to know

Radhi Devlukia 1:04 Hey, everyone. Welcome back to this week's episode of On Purpose with Jay Shetty and Radhi Devlikier. We have created these moments of conversation so that we can share a lot of the things that we discuss in our car journeys, uh, when we're traveling places, when we have space and time to actually think about what's happening in the world, the conversations we're having with friends, um, and sharing all the things that people are finding a little bit difficult, and just, you know, having open-ended, curious conversations based on it.

Jay Shetty 1:36 Yeah, we wanted to find a space where we could share conversations we're having, and whether you're watching this on your own or whether you're watching this with your partner or whether you're watching this with a friend, we just wanted to engage in conversations that we think people are having. They may not know who to go to and where to turn to, and so we hope that this provides a space and an open forum to have those. And today's topic is why are men so lonely? And this is based on something that researchers are calling a friendship recession among men.

Radhi Devlukia 2:08 Oh, my gosh. That's sounds sad.

Jay Shetty 2:08 So just to set it up, 15% of US men reported having no close friends-

Radhi Devlukia 2:15 How many percent?

Jay Shetty 2:15 15%-

Radhi Devlukia 2:16 Oh

Jay Shetty 2:17 ... in 2021, which is up from 3% in 1990. Only 13% of men have 10-plus close friends-

Radhi Devlukia 2:26 Wow

Jay Shetty 2:26 ... which is down from 33% in 1990, and one in four US men under 35 report feeling lonely. One in four-

Radhi Devlukia 2:37 Aw

Jay Shetty 2:37 ... men under 35 report feeling lonely, with US men ranking lonelier than peers in the most developed countries. And loneliness was declared a national epidemic by US Surgeon General Vivek Murthy in 2023.

Radhi Devlukia 2:53 That is honestly really sad, though. But, um, who also knew that Akon was so right with the songs he was singing back in the day?

Jay Shetty 3:01 What? [laughs]

Radhi Devlukia 3:02 He has a song Lonely, Mr. Lonely.

Jay Shetty 3:03 I know, but I don't think people are gonna even remember that. You're aging yourself with that one.

Radhi Devlukia 3:06 Um, no, but you know-

Jay Shetty 3:07 Well, Justin Bieber has a show, a song called Lonely.

Radhi Devlukia 3:10 Does he?

Jay Shetty 3:11 Yeah, that's one of my favorite ... I love that song.

Radhi Devlukia 3:12 Oh.

Jay Shetty 3:13 Do you know it?

Radhi Devlukia 3:13 No.

Jay Shetty 3:14 It's so good.

Radhi Devlukia 3:15 But all that to say that men are really speaking about it, but we're just not listening.

Jay Shetty 3:20 That's what, that's what we're-

Radhi Devlukia 3:21 That's really what it is. People are somehow talking about it, but we're not listening. It's so interesting because with men, I notice that men often travel in groups. Like, recently I've been laughing with my cousins because we go to the gym, and there's these packs of men that come in. You know, girls will be alone. They'll be doing their own thing, but there are two, three, sometimes a pack

Radhi Devlukia 3:41 of six men who are hyping each other up in the gym, working out. Like, I, I notice that a lot, and but I notice it so much more in sports. And so when I was thinking about it, I realized that so many men connect through activities. Women connect through, we'll go get, uh, our nails done together. That's a space to talk. You can't do much else but talk. You go get a coffee. What do you do? You talk and have a coffee. And I think a lot of the way that women spend time together creates space for emotional conversations, creates space and time to have that, whereas a lot of the time when men meet, they go to the pub to watch a game. They'll, they'll play an activity. It doesn't leave room or space to have a conversation except for before, like, "Oh, did you watch that game?" And then after it's like, "Oh, yeah, I'm gonna go watch that other game."

Jay Shetty 4:27 [laughs]

Radhi Devlukia 4:27 And so I think-

Jay Shetty 4:29 Is that what men sound like to you?

Radhi Devlukia 4:30 Yeah, that's what they sound ... "Oh, yeah, just gonna have a pint."

Jay Shetty 4:32 Yeah.

Radhi Devlukia 4:33 Um, but I think that the way that they spend time together kind of reflects what you're talking about.

Jay Shetty 4:39 Yeah, yeah. That's, uh ... Yeah, I never thought about it like that. You're right.

Radhi Devlukia 4:42 Men get your nails done more together, okay?

Jay Shetty 4:43 [laughs] You're right that I have to make a concerted effort to find time to talk to my friends before or after we play pickleball or padel-

Radhi Devlukia 4:54 Mm

Jay Shetty 4:54 ... whatever it may be. So you're spot on. The way I like to spend time with my friends is we play sports together. We're outdoors together. We're watching a game together. So I have to make an added effort, as a man who does not feel lonely, I have to make an added effort to spend time with my friends. Now, I get this question a lot because we also both moved, and so I live in LA now. We live in LA, and we were born and raised in London. So all my best friends, i.e. my friends that know me the best, know me 360, all live in London.

Radhi Devlukia 5:25 Mm.

Jay Shetty 5:25 And one of them just moved to Dubai. And so when I tell people that I speak to my best mate, who was my best man at my wedding, three times a week-

Radhi Devlukia 5:35 Mm

Jay Shetty 5:36 ... most people are absolutely shocked.

Radhi Devlukia 5:38 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 5:38 They're like, "How?" Now, I have to give credit because he also picks up.

Radhi Devlukia 5:44 Mm.

Jay Shetty 5:44 He also makes time. He also makes a massive effort. But the reality is that at one point, I realized that if we were not talking two to three times a week, I would feel lonely because he is my closest friend. He does know me the best. He has known me for the last 20 years.

Radhi Devlukia 6:00 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 6:01 And so for me, that set upHas what's allowed me to not feel lonely because my life is busy. Also, I think when you get married, naturally on the weeknights, I wanna spend time with you.

Radhi Devlukia 6:12 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 6:12 And we're investing in our relationship, and my friends who are in relationships are also investing in their relationship. So if I'm now only seeing mates once a week, maybe once every two weeks, maybe once every month, how are we gonna keep that relationship up? How am I not gonna feel lonely because I don't have the time to be vulnerable? If I'm only seeing you once a month, I may not be confident or comfortable enough to open my heart-

Radhi Devlukia 6:36 Mm

Jay Shetty 6:36 ... to be vulnerable. And I think for men in general, being vulnerable has been a long-term difficulty.

Radhi Devlukia 6:42 I think about a lot of the men that I've seen and who've had that kind of surface level connection, not surface level, but not, um, a place of conversation with their friends where they can really speak about their heart. "I'm actually feeling really, like, down today." Like, I- you would not, not normally

Radhi Devlukia 6:58 hear a man say that to their friend. How can someone who's used to doing these activities with their friends, who's used to connecting to them based on having a drink or going out and playing a sport, how do you make that transition? 'Cause I saw this trend on TikTok, and it was these guys calling, what, you know, that good night trend, but then it also turned into the one where you call and say, "I'm just calling to say good night to you." And then also there was a trend saying, "Oh, do you think I should get therapy?" A guy calling and asking their friends, "Do you think I should get therapy?" And it was really interesting because you could tell the guys who don't have that connection with their friends, they'd be like, "Oh, why are you being such a loser? Why do you just go get-

Jay Shetty 7:33 Wow

Radhi Devlukia 7:34 ... or like, or, or saying-

Jay Shetty 7:35 I didn't see that

Radhi Devlukia 7:35 ... or saying, um, you know, making fun of it versus even believing that it could be true. And so how would a guy who's so used to having 20 years of this friendship where it's based on jokes and laughter and not really talking about what's going on s- make that switch? 'Cause that can be quite uncomfortable for-

Jay Shetty 7:52 Yeah

Radhi Devlukia 7:52 ... a lot of people, I imagine.

Jay Shetty 7:54 I mean, that, you've raised such a good point, and I never saw that trend, but that's actually really sad for me that even-

Radhi Devlukia 7:59 Mm

Jay Shetty 7:59 ... in this day and age, when a man has plucked up the courage to say something like that, that it's met with that kind of reaction.

Radhi Devlukia 8:06 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 8:06 'Cause you'd hope that there are athletes today who've talked about their mental health.

Speaker 8:11 Understand that it's okay to not be okay.

Jay Shetty 8:13 It's time to talk. It's time to change.

Speaker 8:16 You know, you got so much responsibility, um, as a athlete to your team. You know, you gotta play at a certain level, and, um, your teammates counting on you. You got the pressure from the media. Everybody's going through something, and everybody, uh, you know, has things that you can't see, you can't touch. It is time for sport to accept its responsibility with this issue.

Jay Shetty 8:38 There are athletes and sports and actors and musicians, male, who've spoken about the challenges with their mental health on all their platforms. I feel like we're living at a time where some of the toughest, strongest men on the planet talk about these things.

Radhi Devlukia 8:56 Mm.

Jay Shetty 8:57 And so I think we've gotta shift the narrative that when you say something vulnerable, that you're weak-

Radhi Devlukia 9:04 Yeah

Jay Shetty 9:04 ... or that in some way you're a loser or in some way that you're not strong. But I think as we have these athletes and superstars talking about their pain, I think there's also been a trend online which is of the alpha male, which is this idea of if you're a high-value man, you don't talk about your feelings.

Radhi Devlukia 9:22 Oh.

Jay Shetty 9:23 You just have discipline, and you break through it. And I always find this really, really interesting because I consider myself to be quite alpha, and I consider myself to be quite emotionally engaged. And so I've always tried to do both, and I don't see them as a paradox. I see both as strength.

Radhi Devlukia 9:42 Right.

Jay Shetty 9:42 So I'm disciplined. I enjoy working out. I enjoy competition.

Radhi Devlukia 9:46 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 9:47 I love all those things. Yeah, you're, you're nodding because you're like, "Yeah."

Radhi Devlukia 9:50 Yeah. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 9:50 I'm extremely competitive, and at the same time, I think talking about my feelings is really important, emotional vulnerability is really important, and being able to make space for my friends and share is really important. So I think a part of it is, first of all, accepting within yourself that it's okay.

Radhi Devlukia 10:10 Right.

Jay Shetty 10:11 I think even before you start looking for people to share it with, do you still think it's a weakness?

Radhi Devlukia 10:16 Mm.

Jay Shetty 10:17 Because if you think it's a weakness, then when you share it and someone rejects it, you're just gonna go and climb into your shell even more.

Radhi Devlukia 10:24 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 10:25 But if you think it's a strength and you believe it's value and you believe it's something you need, I actually ... This is the hardest advice to give, but it's true. You can have your friends that you play football with and-

Radhi Devlukia 10:37 Yeah

Jay Shetty 10:37 ... have bants with and have jokes with, and if they're not the ones that you can share this with, you may have to find a separate group of friends where you can talk about these things.

Radhi Devlukia 10:46 Mm.

Jay Shetty 10:47 And that doesn't mean you abandon your old friends. It doesn't mean your old friends are bad. It doesn't mean you have to leave them. It just means that you may have to start creating a community of new men that you can have this community with.

Radhi Devlukia 10:59 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 10:59 Because if you're being met with, "You're a loser. Dude, you don't need therapy. You just need, you know, to get a pint down the pub." Like, if you're-

Radhi Devlukia 11:07 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 11:07 ... if you're being met with that, then that's not an easy wall to break down.

Radhi Devlukia 11:13 No, it's not.

Jay Shetty 11:14 And it ... First, you should try with your friends. You should try with the friends you have, but if you don't, you are gonna have to start constructing a new group.

Radhi Devlukia 11:20 I've been seeing these really cool, uh, I don't know why I'm getting these ads, but-

Jay Shetty 11:24 [laughs]

Radhi Devlukia 11:25 ... these really cool ads that, not ads, but, you know, when there are retreats and stuff happening, and there are so many men's retreats that happen.

Jay Shetty 11:31 There are, yes.

Radhi Devlukia 11:32 And I think, and, you know, I remember recommending this to a friend whose partner was struggling, and I was saying, "Why don't you go on, why don't you meet completely new people who are going somewhere for the, for the same reason?" If someone's going to a men's retreat, that means that they are lacking male friends. They are wanting to speak to people who are wanting to open their heart, connect, heal things from their past, whatever it is. But sometimes you do have to go outside of what you've been used to if you are trying something new with yourself. And I think this, the other part that I was gonna mention that I remembered of seeing online was, um, you know, there are all these really funny

Radhi Devlukia 12:06 ... I find them really funny, but at the same time, I can see how for an, a man who's trying to be more emotional, it can make you shut down. It's, um-You know, tr- when you have to now treat your man like a princess. And it essentially saying that men are being too emotional these days. And I think these days women seem to want a man who is emotionally available, but not emotional.

Jay Shetty 12:27 Mm.

Radhi Devlukia 12:28 So they want someone who's emotionally available, like, "Oh, I need him to understand me, and I want him to get where I'm coming from, and I want him to be attuned to me, but then I don't want him to cry." Like, I don't want, I don't want him to... [laughs] I remember my, when we were talking about icks, one of my friends said that one of her biggest icks is seeing a man cry or, like, be emotional.

Jay Shetty 12:46 Wow.

Radhi Devlukia 12:46 And I was like, "Oh, wow." Like, okay, that's, it's so interesting.

Jay Shetty 12:50 Yeah.

Radhi Devlukia 12:50 But, but I do think whether a woman says it or not, there's qui- there's quite a few people who feel that way, where a man crying is still seen as being a weakness-

Jay Shetty 13:00 Mm

Radhi Devlukia 13:00 ... but I still want you to be emotionally available to me. And so I think for men, seeing stuff like that online, we think it's, people think it's just funny, but I think that can be really difficult because it stops you then from also being okay with the idea that I should be able to cry, be unhappy, show that I'm feeling upset, depressed, whatever it is. And so I think a lot of what we see online can really play a role in how we feel.

Jay Shetty 13:25 And that's what makes it hard for men because they then think... Now, whether that's... Sometimes it's so interesting as well because social media perception is also not reality.

Radhi Devlukia 13:34 Totally.

Jay Shetty 13:34 But then we start believing that is, and then men go, "God, I can't share that emotion around her 'cause she's gonna think I'm weak, but then I'm carrying this load and I don't know what to do with it."

Radhi Devlukia 13:44 Which then changes me as a partner, as a person-

Jay Shetty 13:47 Totally

Radhi Devlukia 13:47 ... being able to connect to other people.

Jay Shetty 13:49 And you would hope, you, you taught me this, and I, I loved it when you said it to me years ago, which was this idea that, and that's why your podcast is called A Really Good Cry, was this idea that crying and laughing are actually just the same-

Radhi Devlukia 14:05 Two sides of the same coin

Jay Shetty 14:05 ... in that they're expressions of an emotion.

Radhi Devlukia 14:07 Mm.

Jay Shetty 14:08 And when you think something's lu- when you, when you think something's really funny, you don't have to think about laughing. Like, you don't go, oh-

Radhi Devlukia 14:14 Yeah

Jay Shetty 14:15 ... that's really funny, I'm now gonna laugh. You just laugh-

Radhi Devlukia 14:18 Right

Jay Shetty 14:18 ... because it's funny. You don't have to think about crying. Crying is something that happens when something affects you in your gut or your heart or your emotion. You just cry. You don't go, "Oh, now I'm gonna cry."

Radhi Devlukia 14:28 You also don't stop laughter, but people stop tears.

Jay Shetty 14:30 Correct. Yeah.

Radhi Devlukia 14:31 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 14:31 Or people will say, "Stop crying, stop crying."

Radhi Devlukia 14:34 Yes.

Jay Shetty 14:34 You never say to someone, "Stop laughing. Stop laughing."

Radhi Devlukia 14:36 [laughs] Right.

Jay Shetty 14:36 It's, it would be a weird thing to say.

Radhi Devlukia 14:38 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 14:38 Yeah. And we say, "Oh, no, no, don't cry about that. Don't cry about that. It's okay." And it's like you wouldn't say, "Don't laugh about that." Right? You know-

Radhi Devlukia 14:44 Mm

Jay Shetty 14:44 ... unless you're saying it offensive. This was earlier this year, but Kendrick Lamar did a cover for Harper's Bazaar, and in that piece he talked about-

Radhi Devlukia 14:52 Wait. They not like us. They not like us. Oh, no, wrong person.

Jay Shetty 14:57 No, that is the right person.

Radhi Devlukia 14:58 Oh, there you go.

Jay Shetty 14:58 Yeah. Good. All right. So he said-

Radhi Devlukia 15:02 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 15:02 ... I'm sure he's gonna be really impressed by that.

Radhi Devlukia 15:04 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 15:05 Uh, he said, "My tears is all on the internet." So Lamar says in reference to a viral moment where he cried on camera, and he goes, "And now I look back and I love that moment. I love that that happened because it showed me in real time expressing myself and seeing all the work that I put forth actually come to life in that moment."

Radhi Devlukia 15:26 Wow.

Jay Shetty 15:27 Right? And that's Kendrick Lamar, like, who's-

Radhi Devlukia 15:28 Yeah

Jay Shetty 15:28 ... you know, won like I don't know how many Grammys this year and performed at the Super Bowl, and he's saying that, and he goes on to say, "My pops, he was tough. He never showed weakness, and I learned to experience that. But for what I do, there is certainly no growth without vulnerability."

Radhi Devlukia 15:46 Mm.

Jay Shetty 15:47 "If I understood the power of vulnerability earlier, I could have had more depth and more reach to the guys that was around me."

Radhi Devlukia 15:56 Wow. I don't know whether I'm more shocked at that or the fact that you were at a Drake concert last week, and now you're quoting Kendrick Lamar.

Jay Shetty 16:01 Why are you trying to start beef?

Radhi Devlukia 16:02 I'm not. I'm just saying.

Jay Shetty 16:03 Why are you starting beef, Radhi?

Radhi Devlukia 16:05 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 16:06 Why are you starting beef?

Radhi Devlukia 16:06 But honestly, Kendrick, those were some bars.

Jay Shetty 16:09 Right? It's just-

Radhi Devlukia 16:10 Yeah

Jay Shetty 16:10 ... it's, I, I'm, I'm sharing that because I hope it's empowering for men because you see, you know-

Radhi Devlukia 16:15 A rapper, yeah

Jay Shetty 16:15 ... all the conversation around Kendrick is like, oh, yeah, rapper. He's, he's having this rap battle. He's at the Super Bowl. You know, all this stuff, and it's like, but this is what he's saying about himself-

Radhi Devlukia 16:25 Yeah

Jay Shetty 16:25 ... and his life, and he's talking about how his dad was tough. His dad never showed any weakness, and he learned that, but he's actually saying, "I wish I learned the power of vulnerability earlier." And so I'm like, that's coming from, you know-

Radhi Devlukia 16:37 It's really difficult for people who, you know, they're just thinking about him as a rapper, but it's, I guess if someone who's a rapper and in that scene and in that environment can do something like that, it gives hope to people who may be in an environment like we were talking about before, that find it difficult to break out of that same cycle of spending time with people. But I do think that community is, is the key factor to feeling like you can open up, and I think building community is one of the hardest things that people find. And that's why I think loneliness, especially in men, if they're, if they're not in a pa- if they're not in a partnership, that also forces them to come together with couples and meet other men. It's like, where do people meet other people?

Jay Shetty 17:17 Yeah. And that's why, that's why I think... But I think the other challenge is for men is that I think women like to gather in groups, but sometimes men have better conversations one-to-one.

Radhi Devlukia 17:27 Right.

Jay Shetty 17:27 I was at dinner last night with a guy that, uh, someone that I, I became friends with early on. We were part of a meditation group that I was teaching. I bumped into him randomly at a grocery store once. We spent three hours that evening together.

Radhi Devlukia 17:39 Oh, wow. Yeah.

Jay Shetty 17:40 We both have crazy travel schedules. We don't see each other often, but we happened to be in London. He's leaving today, and we made time to go to dinner together, and I'm not, we had, we both had the best time.

Radhi Devlukia 17:50 That's so nice.

Jay Shetty 17:51 And we probably spent three hours talking. It was full on open conversation, like we dove in deep in 30 minutes, and we both walked away going, "We need to do that more." And I feel like that, like when I'm with a man one-on-one and we're at the same frequency, I can lock in. Actually, when I'm in group environments, I really struggle-

Radhi Devlukia 18:08 Harder

Jay Shetty 18:08 ... because you're trying to-Create a cohesive environment, but there may be two guys over there who just wanna talk about the football

Radhi Devlukia 18:14 Yes

Jay Shetty 18:15 There may be another two guys over there who just wanna talk about whatever they, you know, whatever's happening at work or whatever it is. And then there's a couple of you that actually wanna go deeper, but you can't because you can't direct what eight people are doing

Radhi Devlukia 18:25 It throws off the frequency

Jay Shetty 18:27 Yeah

Radhi Devlukia 18:27 Yeah

Jay Shetty 18:27 Whereas I feel like women will all talk about one subject-

Radhi Devlukia 18:29 Yes

Jay Shetty 18:30 ... together, whereas I think a lot of men, I know personally that I feel building one-to-one friendships is the space where I get to do that. And it was interesting because this was talking about emotional conditioning and how girls and boys start out on the same trajectory of prioritizing friendships, but boys feel pressure to give up their same sex friendships because it feels girly

Radhi Devlukia 18:54 Oh, no

Jay Shetty 18:54 So that idea of like hanging out together and us talking about our feelings, boys are conditioned to feel that that's a girly thing to do

Radhi Devlukia 19:01 What you felt with that guy-

Jay Shetty 19:03 Yeah

Radhi Devlukia 19:03 ... is called a bromance

Jay Shetty 19:05 One thing I learned as well was I needed, I needed friends in my industry because they also have a shorthand for how I feel

Radhi Devlukia 19:13 Mm

Jay Shetty 19:14 And that's how he felt, too. It's like having friends that are in a similar industry

Radhi Devlukia 19:17 You already have something in common

Jay Shetty 19:18 You already have something in common

Radhi Devlukia 19:18 You already have an understanding

Jay Shetty 19:20 Yeah

Radhi Devlukia 19:20 But, you know, I think women feel that way, too. I, I've been speaking about a friend that I've made recently who feels, I feel like I've known for so long, but when you feel that connection to a friend, when you feel understood by them, when you feel like you can share a lot of yourself that you can't normally with other people, it really is ... I think friendships are so close to the feelings of romantic relationships

Jay Shetty 19:43 Yeah

Radhi Devlukia 19:43 And I don't mean that in a weird way, but it really is. It sparks the same excitement and because you feel understood

Jay Shetty 19:49 Yeah

Radhi Devlukia 19:49 And I remember you saying this, I think, on my podcast where you said, "Not everyone is supposed to understand you, and love is understanding."

Jay Shetty 19:55 Yeah

Radhi Devlukia 19:55 And love is also so special that not, you don't feel it with so many people

Jay Shetty 19:59 Yeah

Radhi Devlukia 19:59 And so, yes, you feel it in a romantic partnership, but how beautiful if you can actually feel it with friendships, too. And I think women, women are j- are feeling lonely as well. I think finding community-

Jay Shetty 20:09 Really?

Radhi Devlukia 20:10 Yeah. I think finding community for women is so difficult because in women you also have this aspect of, unfortunately, where gossip is a big part of connection, and I think that makes a lot of women feel insecure in friendships because-

Jay Shetty 20:25 Interesting

Radhi Devlukia 20:25 ... gossip ends up being a big part of it. Now, uh-

Jay Shetty 20:28 You feel like if you say something to someone they're gonna tell someone else in the group, and that trust being broken makes it uncomfortable to actually be vulnerable

Radhi Devlukia 20:35 Yeah, I think so. I, I think that's a big part of female friendship, unfortunately, especially what, what I grew up with. And, and I think this one-to-one connection, what you said, is very important because even for women, finding that one-to-one connection where you feel you can confide in this person, I think for women a big thing is trust. That can I trust what I'm telling this girl? She's not judging me. She's not ca- she's not, um, gonna share it with anybody else. I think that's something that's quite rare

Jay Shetty 21:01 Yeah, yeah. I, I, it's, it's interesting hearing about it from that perspective. I've found the one-to-one thing to be the solver for this

Radhi Devlukia 21:09 Mm

Jay Shetty 21:09 I've recommended it to so many of my male friends and I've said, "Guys, we always hang out in big groups", and-

Radhi Devlukia 21:14 I used to be a pack person

Jay Shetty 21:15 Yeah. No, I've never-

Radhi Devlukia 21:16 You know me, I've always loved hanging out in big groups, and I've recently started spending individual time with someone that I really want to spend individual time with, and it, it makes such a difference

Jay Shetty 21:25 Yeah, yeah. I, I think it's, I think it's also like you have to find people who want to do this. So not every person I go out to dinner with, like yesterday, is somewhere where I walk away

Jay Shetty 21:35 going, "Oh, we could do this any time"

Radhi Devlukia 21:36 Mm

Jay Shetty 21:37 Because maybe the conversation stays surface level. So there is a bit of frequency matching, even in a friendship

Radhi Devlukia 21:42 You have to assess the situation

Jay Shetty 21:43 Yeah. Like, I don't think e- and I also don't think every friend of yours, to be a real friend, has to have a deep conversation with

Radhi Devlukia 21:50 No

Jay Shetty 21:50 There are friends that I'm happy to call up and be like, "Did you see what Manchester United just did?" Like-

Radhi Devlukia 21:55 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Jay Shetty 21:55 ... I want to have that relationship with them, and I would love if that can also go to, "Mate, how are you feeling today?" But not every relationship has to do that, and so sometimes I also feel we put too much pressure-

Radhi Devlukia 22:06 Yeah

Jay Shetty 22:06 ... on everyone in our life to be everything

Radhi Devlukia 22:09 What do you think are some good questions then that people could ask themselves, like men? What are some good questions that men could ask themselves to understand, am I feeling l- like, am I feeling like I don't have a good connection with people? But then also questions that they can maybe open up this idea of vulnerability with their friends with that doesn't feel too scary or too intense

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Radhi Devlukia 24:05 Mm. Even one friend

Jay Shetty 24:07 Even one friend

Radhi Devlukia 24:08 Yeah

Jay Shetty 24:09 That, that's something I would look atAnd then I would also ask for a man, do you have one friend that you could call to share your biggest win with? 'Cause sometimes that can be harder-

Radhi Devlukia 24:21 Yes, that's... Yes. Good one

Jay Shetty 24:23 ... because sharing your pain is hard, but sharing your success is harder-

Radhi Devlukia 24:27 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 24:28 ... because it can come across as bravado, arrogance-

Radhi Devlukia 24:31 Yes

Jay Shetty 24:32 ... et cetera. And so you may feel you have to play your success down. And so I think that's what I would look at, so that helps you figure out whether you're lonely or not. And then it's like, do you feel you have someone in your life who doesn't judge you and gives you the space to be all of yourself? And that's what you said, women need that too. We all want a space-

Radhi Devlukia 24:55 Yeah

Jay Shetty 24:56 ... in our life where we feel seen and not judged.

Radhi Devlukia 24:57 Yes, exactly.

Jay Shetty 24:58 Actually, you say this, this is really interesting. This guy came up to me, uh, he worked at the restaurant that I went to last night, and he came up to me afterwards when I was leaving and he said, "Hey, I listen to the podcast, really love what you're doing. Me and my wife love what you and your wife are doing." And he said, "But sometimes I just don't feel seen."

Radhi Devlukia 25:18 Oh, interesting.

Jay Shetty 25:18 And he said, "Sometimes I feel only successful people feel seen, and I'm still trying to become successful and I'm not there yet." And, and I said to him, I said, "Actually, successful people also don't

Jay Shetty 25:33 feel seen because they feel seen through a particular lens, whereas the most seen I feel is when I'm with my wife or with, um, a, a deep old friend that I know and they see all of me."

Radhi Devlukia 25:43 Mm.

Jay Shetty 25:44 And I was like, "You're gonna feel more seen if you spend time with people deeply and individually than you are if you have a global brand."

Radhi Devlukia 25:52 Yeah, if you have lots of eyes on you-

Jay Shetty 25:53 If you have lots of eyes-

Radhi Devlukia 25:54 ... it doesn't mean you feel seen

Jay Shetty 25:55 ... it doesn't mean you feel seen.

Radhi Devlukia 25:55 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 25:56 It's like you w- you have views, but you don't feel seen.

Radhi Devlukia 25:59 Mm.

Jay Shetty 25:59 And because people are ultimately catching you for 30 seconds and making a judgment on you.

Radhi Devlukia 26:04 Yes.

Jay Shetty 26:05 And so anyway, it was... I, I know I got off on a tangent, but-

Radhi Devlukia 26:07 No, but that's really... You- that's such a good point. I think, you know, even when you're younger you think you need more friends, and you have to have m- multiple people that you can do different things with. But as you get older, you realize that it's not necessarily about having how many people you can invite to your birthday. I was planning my birthday recently, and I remember calling, I was like, "I think I have, like, eight friends who I can call here maybe," and I don't even know if all of them are gonna end up coming. And at that, at that time it made me realize how, how thankful I am for just those eight friends. It wasn't, "Oh, I've got 20 family members coming and, like, eight friends coming," it was, "Oh wow, I've got eight friends that are here that I want to spend time with." And then I was trying to collect other people and add people to it that I was like, "Do I really need these people here?"

Jay Shetty 26:52 Mm.

Radhi Devlukia 26:52 "Or am I trying to collect numbers to feel like I've got more friends unnecessarily?"

Jay Shetty 26:57 Right.

Radhi Devlukia 26:57 And so I think the, the views versus being seen is a really important part of when you're thinking about friendships because you don't need to have 100 people at your birthday party. You need three people that you can go to when you're in your hardest moments, when you feel like you've done something that you need to talk about, that you're judging yourself about, that you feel that person's not gonna judge you for, and that's so much more important than having the 30 friends at your birthday party.

Jay Shetty 27:20 I'm so glad you made my tangent relevant.

Radhi Devlukia 27:22 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 27:23 [laughs] It was really good. That was really good. But no, that's exactly it. Like, I think, I think a lot of men feel lonely because we're always in crowds. That's the idea, that you're always in groups. And so that same idea that you're saying is that we've always been taught that more friends means more happiness.

Radhi Devlukia 27:38 Yes.

Jay Shetty 27:39 And less friends can actually equal more happiness if there's more intimacy-

Radhi Devlukia 27:43 Totally

Jay Shetty 27:43 ... and more depth to that relationship. Loneliness l- is linked to depression, anxiety, dementia, diabetes, stroke, and heart disease, and loneliness can be as harmful as smoking 15 cigarettes per day.

Radhi Devlukia 27:57 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 27:57 Studies show.

Radhi Devlukia 27:57 When I, um, worked at the hospital, I would do these clinics for elderly, and it would be to do with them not eating in. It was so interesting, the underweight people that used to come in in the elderly clinics would be, like, 80% men and only 20% women because they talk about how, especially for men, their eating habits, the way that they connect to people, if they're not having that interaction

Radhi Devlukia 28:22 and if their partner's passed away or whatever, they lose the will to do much else in their life.

Jay Shetty 28:28 Mm.

Radhi Devlukia 28:28 And so it was really interesting seeing how 80% of those m- people that were coming in at el- at older state were people who were lonely, spent most of their time in their home. And, uh, even when it came to dementia, it says being in a community or feeling a sense of purpose in your life, whether it is within a community or whether it is with your partner, completely changes the trajectory of your... the, the progression of dementia.

Jay Shetty 28:52 Mm.

Radhi Devlukia 28:53 Um, and your longevity and the feeling of being wanted and needed in this world is so important to help keep your mental state alive. And so for men especially, I think there's a... I've seen so many w- el- older women who are able to get back up faster once their partner's died. But I think naturally for a man, from what I've seen, it ends up being a lot more difficult. So I think that's another reason why having friends is so important. Don't think about it for now, you have to think about it for your future of when you are in a situation where maybe you have to be alone f- or away from your partner. Do I have people that I'm gonna be able to turn to in those moments? Because that's what community's supposed to be there for.

Jay Shetty 29:32 Yeah. And, and, and the research shows that men are happier when they're married, but women are unhappy when they're married. [laughs]

Radhi Devlukia 29:38 Really?

Jay Shetty 29:39 Yeah. Or, or at least i- i- in that-

Radhi Devlukia 29:40 Oh, my lord. That's some

Jay Shetty 29:41 ... I think, I du- I think the act-

Radhi Devlukia 29:43 Ah

Jay Shetty 29:43 ... I think the actual study says that men live longer when they're married.

Radhi Devlukia 29:46 Mm, mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 29:46 And women don't live as long when they're married-

Radhi Devlukia 29:48 I c- I've seen that

Jay Shetty 29:49 ... because women carry on more stress.

Radhi Devlukia 29:50 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 29:51 And men are actually helped by the marriage.

Radhi Devlukia 29:54 You notice that when people lose their partners at a young age or even at old age-

Jay Shetty 29:57 Yeah

Radhi Devlukia 29:57 ... men struggle so much more than women do. Women are just used to going through the pain. They also are used to most of the systems and the things that they have to do in the house, like, they're able to adapt faster.

Jay Shetty 30:08 Yeah.

Radhi Devlukia 30:08 Whereas I think for men that's really difficult.

Jay Shetty 30:10 Yeah. This one was really interesting, and it's kinda based on what you're saying. There's thisUh, Jeffrey Hall, a professor of communication studies at the University of Kansas who studies friendships, he previously found it can take 200 hours to make a close friend.

Radhi Devlukia 30:26 200 hours.

Jay Shetty 30:26 And he talks about how men rely on their wives to develop the social calendar. So they think-

Radhi Devlukia 30:32 Interesting

Jay Shetty 30:33 ... "She'll do it, and I don't have to do it." And he says that there's a, a challenge in their skillset.

Radhi Devlukia 30:39 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 30:39 So it's the idea that women plan the social calendar, and men just tag along to whatever the women plan. And so they don't ever think about, "Well, I need to find a ma- ... Uh, I need to do this. I need to do that. My wife's kinda planned the weekend. We'll just do whatever she says." And so he doesn't really-

Radhi Devlukia 30:55 Wow

Jay Shetty 30:55 ... spend that much time around men.

Radhi Devlukia 30:56 You're so good at planning your social calendar.

Jay Shetty 30:59 Yeah. I've-

Radhi Devlukia 31:00 You've ... But you've really had to work at it.

Jay Shetty 31:02 Yeah, I've just had to-

Radhi Devlukia 31:02 Like, you've really had to make a point of saying, "Two days a week I'm gonna meet friends. I'm gonna catch up with this." You've go- I feel like you've got a good system in place of, "These are the friends I need to catch up with. Once a month I'm gonna do this with this person. Once a week I'm gonna meet this person." And it's good. You've, you've really learned how to create that cycle and system to make sure that you do connect.

Jay Shetty 31:20 Yeah, that's how I like-

Radhi Devlukia 31:21 Really important

Jay Shetty 31:21 ... people to think about their life. Like, think about everything mathematically and everything becomes simpler.

Radhi Devlukia 31:25 Right.

Jay Shetty 31:26 If you make it about, you know-

Radhi Devlukia 31:28 How you're feeling

Jay Shetty 31:28 ... how you're feeling on that day, it will just ... It will ... You know, there's so many times, like yesterday before the dinner I was so close to canceling because I

Jay Shetty 31:35 was a bit tired.

Radhi Devlukia 31:35 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 31:36 So glad I didn't, and that's where systems help. And so it's like, who do you wanna see once a week? Who do you wanna see once a month? Who do you wanna see once a quarter, and who do you wanna see once a year? If you have a list of the people in those-

Radhi Devlukia 31:49 That's so good

Jay Shetty 31:50 ... buckets-

Radhi Devlukia 31:51 Yeah

Jay Shetty 31:51 ... it becomes really, really simple. So I'm with you every day. Whenever we're in the same country, we're together every day, which is awesome. And then, but then there's friends. I'm like, "Okay, I'm gonna see you once or twice a week. I'm gonna see you..."

Radhi Devlukia 32:00 Mm.

Jay Shetty 32:00 And that allows me to simplify my life, and now it's not random. And then I don't go three months and go, "Why haven't I seen that person?"

Radhi Devlukia 32:08 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 32:08 "I love them. Like, I love seeing them." And it's like, well, no, just have it in the system.

Radhi Devlukia 32:12 Yes.

Jay Shetty 32:12 And now I don't have to feel that way. And so I'm just allowing myself to be more effective with friendships. And th- people think that that might be businesslike or transactional. Actually, that's what love and respect actually is, where it's like, "I respect you enough. You're in the calendar. I wanna see you every month."

Radhi Devlukia 32:27 Yes.

Jay Shetty 32:28 And it allows us to deepen our friendship, and then at the end of the year we get to think about all the amazing memories we made.

Radhi Devlukia 32:33 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 32:34 I think what we all have to realize is that friendship is a learned skill.

Radhi Devlukia 32:39 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 32:39 And it's not something you're born with. And so we almost assume that people should know how to be a good friend. We assume people should know how to be a good partner. We assume someone should know how to be a good parent. And the reality is all of those skills are learned. And so for me as a man, if you're listening to this right now and you're feeling lonely, I want you to know that there are other men out there that feel lonely.

Radhi Devlukia 33:03 Mm.

Jay Shetty 33:04 Which means that you actually have the opportunity to become community for each other, and that truly starts with you having the courage to share something vulnerably, openly, honestly, and seeing who matches that frequency.

Radhi Devlukia 33:18 Right.

Jay Shetty 33:18 And it's as simple as that, is not everyone's gonna match your frequency. Someone might joke with you. Someone might laugh at you. Someone might just play it off. That's okay, because chances are in five to 10 years' time, they may come back to you and say, "I'm sorry I did that. I'm going through something right now." But for now they aren't that person.

Radhi Devlukia 33:37 Right.

Jay Shetty 33:37 That doesn't mean they're bad. It doesn't mean you reject them. Just go find the people that you wanna connect with. How have you seen men in your life, apart from me-

Radhi Devlukia 33:46 Yeah

Jay Shetty 33:46 ... struggle or do well in friendships? What has worked for them, and what have, what has not worked for them?

Radhi Devlukia 33:51 I think sometimes, well, especially in our community, men have a lot of family members that they can, like, socialize with. But I have noticed as time goes on, you know, I think about my dad, and I remember he used to have, like, a huge social life when he was younger. And then as he's gotten older and older, that pool has definitely gotten smaller and smaller. But he... I randomly walk into his office, or I randomly walk into the room, and he's having a conversation with the, his best friend, my uncle, who he's known since he was at university. And they're talking about things, whether it's through their physical health or their, you know, here and there, but they'll still have these once-a-month catch-up conversations. He doesn't really see them. They don't go out necessarily. They don't go out and have a meal together. But he has these two or three people who I know he is speaking to. There's, like, Andreas. There's m- my uncle. There's one other person. I know that he has these people that will check in on him and that he's checking in on. And so I think friendships also change as time goes on. They don't have to look the same way. You don't have to be going out ... I don't know why I keep saying the pub. Why do I keep thinking about those today? [laughs]

Jay Shetty 34:52 You really love a pub.

Radhi Devlukia 34:53 You don't have to keep going out to the pub to meet your friends, but you know that those people are still available to you.

Jay Shetty 34:59 Yeah.

Radhi Devlukia 34:59 And so I think what you were saying is can you make that call? I know my, my, my dad seems like ... I, I, I always wonder, oh, has my dad got friends and is he going out and about? But actually he's got those people he can call, and I think, um, that's something that's built over time. University, and he's in his 70s, he's, like, 70 now, and he's kept that connection f- from that point. He knows every time I struggle with anything or he thinks he needs something, he calls them, and he knows that they've got the advice or they've got the, the ability to help him. And I think that has been, again, it's a learned skill. It's been built, learnt and built over, since he was 20 years old till 70, and that takes work. That takes the phone calls every week, the checking in every month, showing up when something's happened in their life. And so I think it takes a lot more effort than just, "Let's book a tennis court."

Jay Shetty 35:47 Yeah.

Radhi Devlukia 35:47 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 35:47 Absolutely. Thanks for listening, everyone. Uh, drop in the comments how you've been creating great friendships, what you're struggling with.

Radhi Devlukia 35:54 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 35:54 Maybe you'll even connect with people in the comments section, which we'd love to see, and make sure you tag me on Instagram and TikTok, me and Radhi, on what's resonated with you, what you're trying, and the great friendships that come from this. So thank you for listening. Hey, everyone. If you loved that conversation, go and check out my episode with the world's leading therapist, Lori Gottlieb, where she answers the biggest questions that people ask in therapy when it comes to love, relationships, heartbreak, and dating. If you're trying to figure out that space right now, you won't wanna miss this conversation.

Speaker 36:28 If it's a romantic relationship, hold hands. It's really hard to argue. It actually calms your nervous systems. Just hold hands as you're having the conversation. It's so lovely