EVERY SPOKEN WORD
100 min read · 19,586 words- 0:00 – 0:34
Intro
- JSJay Shetty
[camera clicking] The number one health and wellness podcast.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Jay Shetty.
- SPSpeaker
Jay Shetty.
- JSJay Shetty
The one, the only Jay Shetty. [laughs]
- 0:34 – 2:55
The Life Others Tried to Define for You
- JSJay Shetty
You open the book with, "I'll never know who I was supposed to be" because the world decided who you were-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Mm
- JSJay Shetty
... before you got to become. Talk to me about how that felt the first time you understood that.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
I was in a coma when so much was happening about my life, and my story was spreading around the world. I remember my last day of school in Pakistan. I was fifteen years old. I was hoping for the next day to be a normal day. And then something terrible happened, and I wake up in a hospital in Birmingham in the UK, and I find myself on a hospital bed recovering from injuries, going through severe pains, trying to figure out what had happened. And, you know, I still had not even seen what was out there on, on the media about me. You know, I was like, you know, w- who-- w- what does this new life mean? Do I take on this new journey, uh, in, in a new place, um, and how do I recover from the trauma that I have faced? I, I knew that, um, that the only way I can actually have some hope in life is by dedicating my life to girls' education. So I took on this journey to become a girls' education activist. I was defined as a brave, courageous activist. Um, you know, when I learned more about how I was described in the world, I said, "Okay, well, maybe, uh, okay, this is what it means when you survive, uh, a terrorist attack. This is how you're supposed to live your life." Um, and, and, and there's not much you can do. You cannot go back to the old life. You cannot expect a normal life because you are now invited to these big events and gatherings, and you are receiving awards, and you are getting titles. You have to live up to it now. So I said, "Okay, it means I cannot have a normal life. I cannot be that normal student. I cannot feel the same love, um, or, or just have, like, the, that normal life as a, as a teenager, you know, as a, as a young woman." Um, so I, I sort of embraced it. You know, you sort of internalize it and you embrace it. What- whatever people say about you, then you s- then you begin to live up, uh, to that.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. I think it's, it's so
- 2:55 – 6:35
Winning the Nobel Peace Prize at 15
- JSJay Shetty
... And like I said, it's so interesting because what you experienced, and we'll, we'll get to that, is so different and distant-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Mm
- JSJay Shetty
... from the experience. Yet when you say those words of, "I felt like I had to live up to how people saw me"-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... I think that's a very human thing that, that we all experience, except yours was on the world stage.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
And, yeah.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
It's, it's important to, um, to share that, uh, we begin to internalize it.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
I, I started saying that it's a sense of responsibility that I feel because I want myself to live up to this idea of being a brave and courageous activist advocating for girls around the world. I cannot be scared. I cannot have fear, and I need to stay committed to making a change happen. And at the same time, like, I'm fifteen years old. I have to be studying at the same time. Um, I have to learn so much and, and be an, try to be a normal student, um, and then also maintain, like, writing a book and giving speeches and, you know, like, receiving a Nobel Peace Prize at age seventeen. [laughs] I remember I was still in my school and, uh, and that morning my team asked me if I wanted to stay back and, like, prepare a media statement just in case. And I said, "Are you guys crazy? Do you think a school student should be receiving a Nobel Peace Prize?" So I went to my school. I was in my chemistry class. My school's deputy head teacher walked in and called me outside and informed me that I had won the Nobel Peace Prize. I was, like, shocked. I said thank you to her. I gave short remarks to, to everybody in the school to just thank them and talk about the importance of education. Then I went back to, like, my physics class and I c- I completed my school, actually. I said, "I'm not gonna do any interviews or anything. I'm gonna finish my school." You know, that day I felt that so many, like, students sort of looked at me, and I felt really noticed that day. [laughs] Uh, because in this new school I was a very quiet person and I thought, you know, I, I, I thought, like, everybody just saw me as an activist and nobody really wanted to be friends with me. Um, but the next day when everything was back to normal, I felt that most people turned their faces away, and, uh, it just w- went back to, like, that normal day where, uh, I just, I just, you know, wanted to have my f- my ... I, I wanted to have friends and it, and it, you know, wasn't there.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. Do you, do you feel like it, that made you disconnect and distant from your friends and people around you? Like, how did it affect you?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah, I, I don't really, you know, blame the students at that school. It was an all-girls school. It was in a completely new country now, different language, different culture. A lot of the girls had already made friends, so I was a latecomer. And they had heard about me in the news. They had heard the story, and I think they were feeling awkward, um, in how to approach me. And at the same time, I was also so nervous in, in starting a conversation, and I actually missed my old life. I just wanted to be the girl I was in Pakistan, mischievous, exploring new things, adventurous.Chatting with friend all the time and, and like copying or like mimicking [laughs] people's accents and-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MYMalala Yousafzai
... talking about like, you know, gossip and all of those things. And I just thought maybe like, maybe, maybe that's that part of my life is, uh, is gone.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- 6:35 – 9:12
School as a Sanctuary for Children
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, I love the part where you say, "They made me into a mythical heroine. Sometimes the absurdity of it made me laughed."
- MYMalala Yousafzai
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
You said, "Growing up in Mingora, I was a troublemaker. Even on my best day, I was not the reticent saint that everyone now claimed I was."
- MYMalala Yousafzai
I know. [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs] Like, I, that's-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes
- JSJay Shetty
... I was laughing when I read it, but then feeling sad because-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... that has real consequences for you. But it almost made me laugh, and I was like, "Oh, wow," like, Malala, like the Malala-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... sees herself as a mischievous, you know, funny person who's, you know, a troublemaker.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
Like, tell me about that version of you.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
Like, take us back to that version of you.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
In Pakistan, I was, you know, still exploring who I was as a person. And in school I was very active. I wanted to participate in every competition. I was giving speeches and, and doing debates, and I was also, like, trying to sing. I don't know, like, I [laughs] like with a terrible voice. [laughs] I was also doing that. My friends and I still joke about it, that, you know, we just love to be doing something all the time. Education is a privilege. We knew that it's not something that every girl has access to. I thought I was lucky that my father was so supportive of allowing me to be in school, so I valued and treasured every moment at school. And, you know, you hear people complain about being in school and they can't wait for it to finish. It was the other way around for us. We wanted to stay in school for as long as we could because when girls' exposure is limited, and y- and when you live in a patriarchal society where you are cannot really leave your home, so you, you know, you are supposed to stay inside the four walls of a house. Uh, so school becomes that place of safety for you where you can explore things, but at the same time, like, you know, you are, you are in a safe place, but you can explore the things that you love and enjoy. So we, we loved our time in school. And I just wished that I could have all of that in the UK as well, in this new school. And somehow it was very challenging to, like, make it happen. [laughs] I was trying, I was, like, participating in, in almost everything that I could. I was signing up for, like, a 200 meter race, and then I was trying to be part of the debating society because I wanted to make friends, not that I wanted to add more to my, like, personal statement [laughs] or wanted to be an excellent student. Like, truly, deeply, all I wanted was to get an opportunity where I could, like, talk to friends.
- 9:12 – 12:50
When Education Becomes a Privilege
- JSJay Shetty
Mm. Back in Pakistan, when you were saying that you already had this gratitude to be in education, how did that develop at such a young age?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Mm.
- JSJay Shetty
Because I feel that's often what develops with perspective. How did you have it at such an early age to recognize the value of education? What had you seen-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Mm-hmm
- JSJay Shetty
... women go through, or what had you seen that inspired you to-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... want to value education?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
The scenario of a girl without an education was not something that we had to imagine. We were actually seeing it right in front of our eyes. We heard the stories of our aunts, of our mothers, of our cousins, of our siblings who, uh, without an education, missed out on the opportunity to have a future that they chose. My own mother, uh, could not learn. It was very uncommon in the village for a girl to be even enrolled into school. So when she was admitted into, uh, a primary school, and th- she was the only girl in that classroom. She sold her books because she said, "There's no point. No other girl is going to a school." And she got some candies in return. She never saw a classroom after that. It was then years later when, um, you know, when she finally was, uh, like married to my dad, and my dad is, has been very supportive of like women's rights and, and girls' education. She started relearning again. Uh, so when I, when I, you know, when I was seeing how women and girls are asking for one thing, and that is the right to learn, I knew that it was truly a privilege to be in school. But I think, you know, the moment when I realized that this was not something that girls can access so easily and it can be taken away, uh, was when the Taliban took over.
- JSJay Shetty
What was different about your father's experience that made him so aware-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
... of this? What was, what was different about his upbringing or the way he-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... saw the world?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
You know, it's really hard to answer because, um, so my dad, uh, and his brother both received their education while their five sisters could not. And my dad took a different commitment that when he has a daughter, he will educate her, while his brother did not do the same. So, you know, you could be in the s- in, in the exact same environment, and you can read and understand it very differently than the other person, and you can make different decisions. So for my dad, it was this simple dream where he wanted girls to have exactly the same rights as boys, and he always questioned why his sisters could not be in school while he could be. And he knew that for things to change for women and girls, men have to change and do better.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
So he became a feminist father before he had even heard the word feminism. And he usually says that, "Don't ask me what I did, but ask me what I did not do. I did not clip her wings." So he believes in the autonomy, in the, uh, in the power of women and girls. He says like, "We don't need to do anything. We just need to take a step back and give them space."So my father was an amazing father. I consider myself lucky, and I remind people that my story is not unique. So many other girls in my hometown wanted to speak out against the Taliban oppression for their right to education, but their brothers or their fathers stopped them. The only thing that's different in my story is that my father did not stop me.
- 12:50 – 15:35
The Power of Having Someone Stand Up for You
- JSJay Shetty
Wow, what a beautiful relationship you have and, uh, gratitude that you have for him, and incred-- and, and I couldn't agree with you more. There's-- it's amazing that even for a, for a woman to gain access-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... to education, sadly, that requires the permission of a man in that space.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes, and it's, you know, like, it, it is irritating. [laughs] You're like, "Why it is that way?" But it is a reality. If you live in a patriarchal society, we have to acknowledge that men are in power. They have influence, so we have to be engaging them as well, and it takes a lot of time to change things.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Right now, when I look at, um, our community in, in Pakistan, uh, you know, the village that my parents are from, a lot of things are changing now because when s- when a few fathers step up and they re-redefine what it means to be a good father, other fathers follow their footsteps.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
And my father is spreading this message that true honor lies in standing up for women and girls when their rights are taken away. And, and, and you can be fulfilling your role as a father when you empower your daughters, when they have equal rights, when they fulfill their dreams, not that you marry them off.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Like, that's not true fatherhood.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
You give them the education so they choose their future for themselves.
- JSJay Shetty
Absolutely. Well said. It's beautiful. I look forward to meeting your dad one day too. It's, uh-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes. You'd love him. [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, that's it. It's amazing.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
It's, it's truly incredible. I can't, can't imagine how ch-- Was it challenging for him as well to do that, and for the men in-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Very challenging
- JSJay Shetty
... yeah, like, I can't imagine the judgment and the kind of criticism and-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes. I mean, I remember, uh, one time I was supposed to speak at this press conference, and my male cousin was asked to help me, uh, get to the press conference. And I was wearing a headscarf, but I was not covering my face. So my cousin just was, like, really, like, irritated, uh, by that, uh, because most women are expected to cover their faces when they're in public, especially when they, like, reach, uh, adulthood. But I was still, like, very little, and I just did not want to cover my face. [laughs] And I remember that cousin just going to my dad and telling him that, you know, "Malala should, like, cover her face, and it's just, you know, such a shame to the family's name." And my dad told him to mind his own business and told him to, like, just basically, like, "It's none of your business what she does. It's her choice, whatever she wants to wear." Um, so in those moments, you know, you do reflect and wonder what if your dad had not spoken out for you, things would have been different. So it makes a huge difference when people become your allies and they stand up for you.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. At that
- 15:35 – 19:08
Why Women Deserve Equal Opportunities to Thrive
- JSJay Shetty
time, what were your dreams post-education?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
Like, what were, what were your aspirations before you became the emblem and the symbol that you speak about?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
What were you dreaming of? What was your hope to do with your education that you were so grateful to receive?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
I mean, I had many dreams. I was, uh, s- you know, exploring everything. Initially, I just wanted to be a car mechanic.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Then I said, "Okay, let's be a doctor," because everybody was dreaming to be a doctor or engineer. But when the Taliban took over our hometown, and they banned girls' education, they restricted women from movement outside their houses, and they were targeting and killing people if they dared to speak out. So at that time, I was questioning what our leaders were doing for us. So I said, "Okay, you know what? I'll become the prime minister, and I will, like, fix all the problems in the world." Of course, that dream of mine changed because [laughs] I realized that, you know, if you look at the world politics, people in, in, in leadership positions are rather disappointing us by not addressing these injustices and these deep-rooted problems. So, uh, of course, my dreams have changed throughout life, but at the time, I j- I just wanted a different reality, a different, uh, future for us. I simply wanted girls to be able to go to school, to not be stopped, to not be threatened, to not be harmed, to not be killed, um, to, to learn and to follow their dreams. I did not want people to, like, pick up their guns and target a girl simply because she wants to be in school and she wants to follow her dreams. But this is a reality. Like, you know, for women and girls to exist and to have equal opportunities or, or just to have a life in dignity as a human, they're threatened for that. It's really hard to process, but this is a reality like so many, many women have experienced or are still living through. I mean, wh- which girl at 11 years old want to be an activist? But it's only when your school is closed, that's when you want to speak out because you want to be back in school. My story is not unique. So many other girls in my hometown wanted to speak out against the Taliban oppression for their right to education, but their brothers or their fathers stopped them. The only thing that's different in my story is that my father did not stop me. I just thought I would never get married. I was strongly against marriage [laughs] for a, for a long time, and then I, I fell in love and-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MYMalala Yousafzai
... I was the first one in my friend's group to get married.
- JSJay Shetty
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- 19:08 – 21:19
Living Through the Violence of the Taliban
- JSJay Shetty
the Taliban takes over your town, what does that actually look like, and what does that mean for people who have no idea-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... what that actually looks like and what that means for your rights and-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... what that means for general living?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
I mean, everything changed when the Taliban took over. Uh, initially, they were just giving religious sermons about, you know, the religion, [laughs] and then, um, quickly they started announcing these restrictions on women and girls, that a woman cannot go to a market, she cannot, um, do a job. Uh, they were threatening people who were artists, like painters or dancers or musicians. They said, you know, all of this form of art is also prohibited. And then they started, like, attacking people for it. They would announce somebody's name, that, you know, this person dared to disobey our rules, and, and, uh, and, and then they were, like, they would kill them. It was terrifying time. Uh, and then it affected, like, me directly, and it affected girls directly when the Taliban announced that no girl will be allowed to be in school. And I remember the day when, uh, the ban was imposed, and I woke up and I just couldn't go to school anymore because the Taliban would be on the roads, on the streets, and, and, and, you know, you could not be seen w- with a, with a backpack, uh, or in your school uniform. And I remember the morning when my brothers would pack their school bags and go off while I had to stay behind. Um, my-- I think then, like, a few, uh, weeks later, um, some of, uh, our friends sort of came up with this idea that why don't we just go in our home clothes and, like, wear a long, uh, hefty scarf, uh, basically, and, like, hide our bag and, and still, like, make it to school. So we also, like, uh, went to school secretly. Uh, but it was, I was like, you know, why-- You know, we should not be living in a world where girls have to hide that they're learning.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
It should be a right that every girl should be freely, uh, receiving.
- JSJay Shetty
Where did the innovative idea of starting a
- 21:19 – 23:29
Spreading Awareness About Life Under the Taliban
- JSJay Shetty
blog come from to write about these things that you started to-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... document and reference and stand up for? Like, where did that impetus come from for you to say, "I'm actually gonna write about these things. I'm actually going to document what's happening"?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
You know, when, when these horrible things are happening and you are living under a terrorism, you just want somebody to know.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
It feels like the world is silent and nobody's looking towards you. So, you know, my father and I were finding opportunities where we can raise, uh, awareness, bring attention to what was happening, uh, because if you don't bring attention, then there's just lack of action as well. So I was speaking at the local press conferences. We were doing peace walks. We, uh, spoke to the local media, and then these international platforms also reached out. So the BBC blog, um, you know, the, the BBC journalist approached my dad and said that they wanted a student to share about their life under the Taliban. Uh, so my dad actually asked, uh, another girl at, at the school, and, uh, you know, she shared her blog for, for one day, and then her father came the next day and said he could-- he can't allow his daughter to share her blog. So when I heard that, I went to my dad and I said, "Dad," like, "I want, I want to write my blog. I want to share my story." Uh, so my dad said, "Okay," like, "if you want to do it, I'll support you." So I started blogging about my life. I talked about, you know, the last days of school and then what life was like under the Taliban, uh, education ban. I wanted the world to know what was happening, and I believe that change does not happen itself. Things will remain as they are if we are waiting so-- for somebody else to come and save us. So I knew that I need to do my part as much as I can, and if that means telling my story at these conferences, at these local platforms or to the international media, I will do that. My father was an activist, so I was just simply following his footsteps, and we both became this, these activists, uh, doing the work together.
- JSJay Shetty
I mean, that
- 23:29 – 27:31
What Sparked the Activist Within
- JSJay Shetty
was from such an early age. That was like-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... 11 years old.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
11 years old, yes.
- JSJay Shetty
11 years old for you to start becoming an activist, and that's what's so interesting about it as I read the book, that you were an activist before the event-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes
- JSJay Shetty
... and we'll, we'll talk about that. But you were already an activist from such a young age. It almost feels like you were meant to be an activist, but there's so much lost when it becomes your entire identity-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... rather than a part of your identity.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Basically, yes, I became an activist at a young age, but this is not what I had chosen for myself.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
It was the circumstances that made me an activist. I mean, wh- which girl at 11 years old want to be an activist? But it's only when your school is closed, that's when you want to speak out, because you want to be back in school. That was my dream. I, I wanted girls in my hometown to be in school. I wanted myself to continue my education. We knew that a future without an education is dark. We had seen stories of women who lost their dreams because they were not being able to go to school. So simply it was a dream to have a future with equal opportunities. We can stand on our own two feet. We can make, uh, a living for ourselves. We can know about our rights. We can protect our rights. Uh, and so education was a pathway, and if-- when you are living in a patriarchal society, education becomes the only pathway.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. It's, it's-It's amazing because you say that the situation made you that way, but obviously there were other people turning down the activism, yet you felt, like, compelled-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... to stand up for your fellow friends and fellow girls.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
I thought, um, if I were to choose between two options, whether to live under the Taliban and, and, and be silent, or if it was, you know, to s- to speak out, and even if it mean a, a threat from the Taliban, uh, but some change could happen, I would choose the latter.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Because I wanted to see things change, um, 'cause I wanted simply a different future-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- MYMalala Yousafzai
... for ourselves. And it's really hard to tell, you know, if it was the voice of, like, one activist who changed something or not. Like, so many people were involved. Um, you know, there was a whole civil society who were advocating for bringing peace and for, like, you know, like, speaking against the Taliban's restrictions. Then this military operation was done. We returned, uh, to-- W- we became internally displaced, and then, uh, the summer of 2009, we returned to Swat Valley, and we restarted our lives. So many schools were bombed, so many police stations, uh, and different, like, political, uh, officials' buildings, and so many things were, like, damaged. There were suicide attacks. People had lost their loved ones. So our area, you know, s- Swat Valley, which has been known as the, as a place of tourism, and it's known for its beauty, and it's called, like, the Switzerland of the East, uh, became, like, a place of terrorism, and it was now this, like, war-torn area. So we had to then, uh, rebuild it. And I knew that it was not just, um, groups like the Taliban that we have to stand up against, but we also have to talk about, uh, the mindset, the, the mentality that, that still exists. It, it does not have the, like, a name. It does not necessarily is in the shape of an armed group. But the m- the ideology is there, and we have to stand up against this ideology. They do not see women as equal humans, and they deny women and girls their rights. So my father and I continued our activism. Uh, but we just thought that the Taliban were, were gone. Um, uh, but somehow, you know, they were still there in the distance, and I, um, yeah, and then, uh, in, in 2012, at age 15, I was attacked by the Taliban.
- 27:31 – 28:19
Choosing Courage Over Silence
- JSJay Shetty
Before that, were you worried that you'd be attacked, and did you fear being attacked when you were being an activist through the blog, these conferences, speaking? Were you scared that that could ever happen and that could be a possibility? Would that ever cross your mind?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes, I had these thoughts many times, what would happen if a Taliban gunman shows up and tries to attack me. But I was more worried about my dad. Um, I just had this l- little hope that maybe they would not attack a girl. They would not attack, you know, a 14 or 15-year-old girl. Uh, so yeah, you know, like, I, every night I would be worried about my father more than, more than me.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm. That,
- 28:19 – 36:04
Surviving the Taliban Attack
- JSJay Shetty
I mean, even just listening to that, uh, as I'm listening to your journey and your life, I'm like, there is so much courage-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Mm
- JSJay Shetty
... and there is so much resilience for such a young person to be able to even make sense of what is going on, let alone put themselves at the center of it. And the fact that you were concerned about your father in that moment is so heartwarming, and at the same time, it's, it's painstaking because it's so much pressure on such a young person-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... to take on. It's, it's really incredible. I mean, in your book, and I wanna be very sensitive to do with this because of the way you write about it, and when I was at this point in your book, it really, you know, it really took me a second to process it myself. And you talked about how you said, "My life is so happy now, and it's hard to look back."
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Mm.
- JSJay Shetty
And I, I appreciate that. I can't imagine-- I can't even come close to imagine how hard it is to even reflect on being attacked by the Taliban. And in the manner that it happened, I believe you were on a bus.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes, school bus, yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
A school bus. So walk me through what you can, uh-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... sensitively and mindfully in the best way for you to share that experience so people can understand what happened.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah, so we were on our school bus, um, and, you know, I was just hoping I would get to my home and prepare for my next day exams. [laughs] It would be a normal school day the next day. Uh, but on the way, uh, the Taliban gunmen stopped our school bus, and, uh, one person was distracting the di- the driver at the front, and one guy showed at the back and asked, "Who's Malala?" And my face was uncovered. Uh, he immediately started firing bullets. Uh, one bullet immediately had, uh, hit me, uh, on the left side of my forehead, and two bullets hit the friends who were sitting right next to me in their arms and in their hand. Um, I do not remember the, the, the exact incident, you know. And, and this has been my answer [laughs] so far. I have, like, many f- like, memories in, in, in my head, but I sort of have told myself I do not remember it. And I was then taken to a hospital, and, uh, from one hospital to then another to then another, and then eventually I was, uh, moved to the UK for my further treatment. And, uh, you know, I survived. My friends survived. Uh, I started my school again in the UK. My friends also were moved to the UK, and they started their school. Um, so, you know, when I, when I look back, I'm just really grateful that, uh, you know, that, that we're all alive, and we completed our education. ButLike, everything changed that day. You know, w- like, we didn't make it to, to our homes. It, it was, uh, it was sort of a, a, a terrible, terrible moment. All I remember is the last day of school and then waking up in a hospital in Birmingham in the UK, um, and just realizing that I have a tube in my neck and I can't talk, and I just look around and I see these nurses and doctors speaking in English. They look very different than [laughs] like the Brown people I had seen in Pakistan, and I said, "I feel like I'm in a different place." And I, um, sort of writing down to them to, to just tell me where I, where I was. I said, you know, "Where am I?" Like, "What happened to me?" And I repeatedly asked one question, "Where's my father?" And then I would also add, "Who's gonna pay for this? I don't have money." [laughs] So I was worried about the, the medical bill. You know, I think Americans would understand where I was coming from.
- JSJay Shetty
Absolutely, yeah.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Uh, but I just wanted to get better and leave the hospital, go back to my old life. Uh, it took me a while to realize that, you know, my life had taken a turn.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
My parents joined me 10 days later at the hospital. That was the first time I actually cried, because a lot of people might think that when I woke up, I might have been under, like, so much pain and trauma, I might have been crying day and night. No, I c- I just, like, I wasn't feeling normal. The pain is so intense that you just forget the normal emotions to process it, the, the normal reactions. So I, I couldn't even cry. And the first time I, I saw my family when they came back to the, uh, when they came to the UK, um, that was the first moment I cried. Uh, because, you know, when you see your family, you, you, you connect with that normal life that you had before. So, um, and then before I even realized, y- you know, I had, like, a few more surgeries to go through, and then, you know, they said, "Okay, you, we want you to do this, like, interview, and, uh, we're suppo- w- you know, we want you to give this speech at the UN, and we also have this book offer, so it would be good if you can sign [laughs] the book offer. So, and you have to start, uh, school as well, uh, because we don't know when you can go back, but you should start school in the UK." So I joined a new school, and this is this, like, new pathway that my life took. To be honest, like, in, in my heart, I thought, "This is all temporary. Like, this is all temporary for now because we are going to go back to Pakistan as soon as possible, and we will have a normal life." Um, I just had no idea what was out there and, and what had happened. So, like, the first time when I learned about, um, the response from, like, people around the world was when this person from the hospital brought a basket of cards and letters, and I'm, like, reading cards and letters from people around the world, like US and Japan and, uh, India and Canada, and I'm like, "Wait a second," like, "Do people know about me?" [laughs] And then I, like, looked at, uh, you know, sort of news on, on Google and all of that. I was like, "Wait a second. Uh, wow, like, this is, this is truly, um, an opportunity because people have heard my story, but maybe I can bring attention to the stories of girls around the world." So I started Malala Fund as well at the time, an organization I have dedicated to girls' education. So before I knew it, like, the, you know, everything had switched now. Now I was sort of like the lead activist. My father was following my footsteps [laughs] and I was, like, helping my family as well. I, I was, you know, doing a book or speeches and things like that to help support my family, um, and I also had to be a student at the same time.
- JSJay Shetty
Phew. I mean-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
You know, a lot. [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, even hearing about it, I'm just like, I don't-- I have no idea how you carried all of that.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
In the middle of all of this, you sort of forget that you are 15 and you're supposed to be a girl. I, you know, could not be silly. I could not, um, do normal things. I was not binge-watching some, like, sitcoms. I was, uh, I was, I was not being able to make friends at school. I was too shy, too awkward. [laughs] And, uh, you know, at lunchtime, I would, I would just say, "Okay, you know, I hope I can, like, sit next to a friend. At least I can pretend like I'm sitting with somebody, uh, and I don't wanna sit alone." Um, so by the end of my school, I just had only made one, one best friend, and we're now f- like friends for life, but just one, one friend at school. And, uh, so that, that was all tough because when you're, like, so busy and you have all of this work going on, um, it- it- it's, you know, it's hard. It's hard to be a normal student at school.
- JSJay Shetty
I mean,
- 36:04 – 39:16
Fighting for Every Girl’s Right to Learn
- JSJay Shetty
with the attack, it sounds like the Taliban had come across your blog and aware of your speeches-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes
- JSJay Shetty
... and your activism. Do you think they saw you as a threat because you were starting to gain momentum? Were you starting to have an impact and they noticed that? Or was it a way of displaying power? Like-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... how have you reconciled that?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
So the Taliban issued statements after the attack, and they said many things when I survived, that they did the right thing, that I was somehow promoting an anti-Islamic ideology by simply asking for girls to be in school. And they said that they still see me as, uh, as that disobedient person that needs to be punished for speaking out. So they have, like, repeatedly created these fabricated narratives, these false narratives, calling what I do as, like, un-Islamic or all of that. I mean, like, learning and education is... a core part of Islam. Um, I wish sometimes that, that they read what they're preaching. Like, if they read more about Islam, they will learn that the most important thing is actually seeking knowledge and learning and, and, and there's nothing in, in the religion that says a woman or a girl cannot learn. So how can they make up these, uh, new rules by themselves? It's just simply patriarchy and misogyny.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Um, you know, it's -- they try to misuse-
- JSJay Shetty
Use religion as a coverup.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Exactly, exactly. Um, yeah, I mean, I, I sometimes think about how much can I understand their ideology and then how can I convince them. I was of this view for a long time.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
I thought maybe I could sit down with them and explain it to them, and I can tell them that, you know, I have also read the Quran with translation or, like, I know, uh, all the 99 names of Allah b- off by heart, and I can sort of say, like, you know, that, that they don't own the religion. Like, there are all of us, um, from many cultures and many backgrounds who connect with, with the faith, um, that, you know, education is not a threat to women. It's rather about their empowerment and that it is a core part of Islam. But with time, I realized that, you know, it's, it's not about that. It's not about, you know, changing their ideologies, but it's talking about the deep causes of why these extreme ideologies emerge. And education is a, is a pathway to challenge indoctrination, uh, to encourage critical thinking among people, and to empower people. Like, education is, is the most powerful equalizer, and it can help us address so many of these social economic injustices. And at the same time, like, you know, if the Taliban do not want to see women and girls empowered or in education, the best way for me to fight back is to help girls and women-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm
- MYMalala Yousafzai
... get education and equal opportunities. So I, I shifted my focus. I said, "I'm gonna focus on educating girls." The Taliban wanted to stop one girl from learning. Let's educate every girl in the world.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- 39:16 – 43:10
When Trauma Returns Years Later
- JSJay Shetty
So, it's so empowering listening to you-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
... to you say that and to see the ripple effects that it's having. And I wonder for you, as you were doing that, as you start that process from coming out of the coma -- how long were you in a coma for?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Um, I think a week.
- JSJay Shetty
Wow.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
It was, like, induced coma.
- JSJay Shetty
I can't imagine how worried your parents were when you didn't come home that night.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
I mean, it was a nightmare. I, I could never, um, understand it. I, you know, comprehend it, what they experienced. And it's one of those topics that sort of w-we have talked through when it was, uh, the book writing phase. You know, that's when you ask each other questions like, "I'm writing this chapter. Can you tell me, uh, what exactly happened?" But these conversations are really, really hard.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Um, and, like, mental health, therapy, these conversations did not come up at the time. I had, like, many doctors and nurses, and I loved all of them. But the therapist at the hospital was my least favorite. And, m-you know, she would ask me, um, "How are you feeling today?" And I would roll my eyes, [laughs] that, ugh, you know, what does she know? And, and, like, my father, my parents, uh, and I, we, we sort of said no to therapy. We said, "It's okay." Like, you know, "I'm, I'm doing fine. I have recovered." Like, the surgeries are successful. I have recovered. And then it was, like, years later that I wished that I had received therapy, um, because I thought I, I, you know, I had recovered and everything was fine. Um, I, I just thought I did not remember the attack, so I'm good. I can move on. And then seven years later, I had flashbacks that were triggered by a bong incident. Yeah, so, you know, this is now college time, and, uh, I, uh, was open to exploring many things in college. I, you know, my life had taken this shift. I was becoming a different young person. So this was, like, a, a, you know, a normal night, and I was hanging out with some friends, and they showed me a bong, and I was like, "What is this?" And it's like, "Oh, you know, just give it a try. Nothing harmful." So I take one puff, I cough, and on the second attempt, I inhale it, and I felt it went all inside my body. And what was, like, supposed to be a fun night just took a sharp turn, and immediately I froze. I thought I was reliving the attack. The flashbacks were in front of my eyes. I thought I could see the gunman again. I was shaking. I was shivering. I, you know, I could hear my heartbeat. I was -- you know, I, I just -- I wanted to scream. It was, like, the -- such a, a trauma that I was going through in that moment, and it, like, went on and on. I just wanted it to stop, and I felt so helpless. Like, time slowed down. I s- you know, I thought maybe this is the afterlife. Maybe, maybe I'm dead. Maybe it has happened again. Like, maybe the gunmen are, are back. And I was, like, so scared that I could not even close my eyes and fall asleep because I thought if I close my eyes, um, that I will die. Um, and, like, even, even the next day, I thought, you know, this will, like, sort of magically disappear. You just hope the next day to be normal, and it wasn't the case. And I realized that, um, m-my life had changed. I, I had many panic attacks after that. Um, and, and I -- as much as I tried, I just could -- it, it was not going away
- JSJay Shetty
Wow, it's incredible to think
- 43:10 – 45:48
The Weight of Being a Symbol of Hope
- JSJay Shetty
after seven years-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes
- JSJay Shetty
... that everything could come back. And I was, I was actually going to ask before that, there's this, it's almost like you are being asked to be the symbol of courage and hope.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
But that meant there was no space for grief or anger-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
No
- JSJay Shetty
... like, or doubt. Like, the grief of lost, the lost life that you had before, the grief of having to leave this place that you loved, that you thought you were coming back to. It sounds like there wasn't any time or space-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Mm-hmm
- JSJay Shetty
... to process any of that. And had you had the therapy support that you would have wanted, maybe it wouldn't have happened that way.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
Talk to me about how, when did you, was that when you first started looking at emotions like grief and anger? And what were the emotions that came up after that-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Mm-hmm
- JSJay Shetty
... seven-year reminder?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
I think now I see it as emotions of grief and, uh, frustration or ... But I think, you know, what's different in, in my experience, uh, was that when a moment like that broke me down, and when small things would make me scared or frightened all of a sudden, this was not happening before because I was supposed to be this brave and courageous girl. And now that I was afraid of small things or, or just nothing terrified me. I felt that I had failed in living up to the expectation of being brave and courageous. And, um, that was the hardest part to process. I just could not take in more. Um, and I was frustrated with myself because I thought, like, "Malala, remember, like, you went through so much, you processed it, and, like, you could take so much on your shoulders. Why is it breaking you down now when, like, you are safe, and there's nothing to be worried about? You, like, everything is okay, and somehow you're, like, frightened now." That is just, like, so hard to process at the time, that you feel, like, so frustrated with yourself. There's this anger, frustration, um, and, and you feel like you are an imposter because, you know, you have, you have failed to meet this definition of being brave. So for months, like, it, it went on, that even my friends started noticing that I was not doing okay. So one of my friends then suggested that I see a therapist, and that was the first time after seven or eight years that I started therapy.
- 45:48 – 48:33
Healing from Trauma One Step at a Time
- JSJay Shetty
It's so fascinating, isn't it, that despite you having lived through so many difficult things, the mind is still able to guilt you into thinking-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Mm-hmm
- JSJay Shetty
... you should have figured this out. Like, how do you-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... like, it's so ... Like, hearing you say that, you've got all the proof that you have gone through really hard things.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes.
- JSJay Shetty
But the mind still finds a way to make you feel guilty and shameful and frustrated that you haven't figured out, or an imposter as you just said.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes.
- JSJay Shetty
Like, oh, you're an imposter because you're helping people have hope, but you're still dealing with this. And it's, it's amazing how the mind can just get the better of us-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... regardless of what we've lived through.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah. I mean, we lived under terrorism. Uh, we lived under the Taliban, and I lived those moments with so much courage. And then, like, many years later, I could not even watch the news and see the word killing, attack. Um, it, it would just terrify me. So much that, like, you cannot hide it. You cannot hide that it's, it's breaking you apart. You know, the flashbacks, these panic attacks. So when my friend suggested that I see a therapist, um, I remember my first session with the therapist where I told her everything about what was going on. Um, she told me that, you know, this is PTSD and anxiety. She said it could be, like, many things, ext- you might be stressed about your exams or your college life and, and so many things that you are thinking about right now in life. Uh, but this is anxiety, and this is PTSD that you are experiencing, like, many, many years later. Um, and I was so annoyed. I was saying like, uh, "So how can we fix this?" I was hoping she would give me some medication, [laughs] that she would fix the problem. But she made me realize that it takes time. It takes time to process. She taught me different, uh, techniques, like, like breathing techniques to, uh, help myself when I am, uh, facing anxiety. Um, uh, and, uh, and, and she, you know, helped me understand that there's only so much, like, you can take at a time, and maybe you could many years ago, but maybe right now that, like ... You know, she calls it a window of tolerance, that your window of tolerance is maybe, you know, sort of shrinking a bit, and then it expands a bit at times. That maybe you have just too much on, uh, on, on your shoulders that, uh, you are overwhelmed. Or sometimes when we don't address it on time, it piles up and, and then it's, it gets so heavy that it breaks you down.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
So she said, like, you might be experiencing that, that as well. So yeah, like, the therapy, um, really changed everything for me. Like, if I had not received therapy, I just do not even know if I would have been in, like, in, in this position right now.
- JSJay Shetty
What
- 48:33 – 51:44
The Life-Changing Power of Therapy
- JSJay Shetty
kept you committed to therapy when you're having such dark days? Because as you said, it's not like you wake up tomorrow-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... and you feel better, obviously.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
And so what kept you committed to the process when you weren't seeing the light at the end of the tunnel?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
So, uh, you know, like, I, I was finding a way to, to get out of it. Like, you know, you feel like you are, you are in the darkness or, or like you want to get out. [laughs] You know that you don't want to be in the place where you are right now, and you're finding different ways to get out of it. I tried to talk to my parentsMy parents just could not understand. I, you know, I was, like, sort of phrasing it in a way that it doesn't freak them out. [laughs] But I was telling them that I have had some challenges with my mental health, and my mom was like, "Just don't be stressed. Like, you know, just be happy." And the same with my dad. He's like, "You know, we want to see you happy, and when you are sad, it makes us sad. But when you are happy, it makes us happy." And I was like, "Okay. Like, I'll, I'll try," but, like, this is not how it works. I usually debate with my dad that, you know, I have the right to be sad as well. [laughs] Uh, that these are all emotions, and we need to give ourselves time to process that. I found my friends very helpful. So at college, all the amazing friends that I had made helped me in this time because they were there for me. They were not my therapists, but they made sure that I, like, did not feel alone, that, um, you know, they were sharing moments with me, taking me to dinner or taking me to an event or something, like taking me for a walk, simple things like that. And then, uh, a few times they did a sleepover [laughs] with me 'cause I, you know, I was struggling. I was struggling to fall asleep, and every, you know, every day a friend would take a turn to do a sleepover. Uh, you know, the first time that I was able to, like, fall asleep.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Um, and, and yeah, it was, like, my friends who made me feel that getting therapy, it's okay.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Like, don't be disappointed with yourself that somehow you have not lived up to the expectation of, you know, being this brave girl who knows an answer to everything, and she has figured it out. Like, it's okay. So many people who you might think have got it all together are actually getting therapy. And when my friend told me that she herself was seeing a therapist, I said, "Wow. Like, I, I had no idea." She said, "Yeah. Like, you may not know, but a lot of people are." So it's like, it's okay, and th- my therapist told me the same thing. So that gave me a sense of relief where you just d- like, don't feel alone anymore. And that's why, like, I'm sharing my story because I'm wondering how many people are out there who might feel alone, who may not know a way out. I just want to tell them that I was in the same place, and I wished somebody had told me their story and ha- and had told us, like, it's okay to ask for help. Like, you know, get therapy, get the support, talk to somebody. I took months to actually see a therapist. Um, so I hope that when people read my story, they, um, they, they ask for help.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- 51:44 – 55:28
Finding Real Friendship and Belonging
- JSJay Shetty
Friends is such a kind of through line in your journey-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... as I'm hearing you talk today, like the importance of friends, missing friends, making friends. How would you define a good friend?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Oh, I mean, it's like a place where you feel you can be yourself.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
When I am in the company of my friends, I don't think about being correct about everything. I don't think about am I s- you know, am, am, am I saying this thing correctly or not? And you, you just don't think twice. You can be yourself. You can let it all out. It is a non-judgmental environment that they create for you, and especially for people like some of us who are, uh, exposed, uh, to a public life and who have a public profile. We have seen how, you know, we can be criticized or scrutinized for almost anything, and we have to somehow just say all the correct things. But when you find friends that you trust, uh, who love you and support you no matter what, you can be yourself with them. So w- like with my friends, I, you know, I can be silly. I can be funny. I can talk about any topic. I can talk about boys and astrology, and, you know, we can discuss their, their, their love lives. And, um, and in that moment, I just don't feel like I have to be somebody, uh, or I have to, like, live up to some sort of a profile that I have. I feel like I can just simply be myself.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm. Yeah, I think that's, that's what we're all looking for.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
And-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Friends are everything.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, and as you're finding your way in this book, I, I imagine it becomes harder and harder with people who know more about you-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... even if they don't know you-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes
- JSJay Shetty
... to really break that barrier down.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah. So I remember the first week of college, I had decided that I will say hi to everybody. I, uh, m- you know, might be overdoing it, but it's okay. It might feel cringe, but go say hello to everybody because you don't want it to be like your school life.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
You want to make as many friends as possible. I remember saying hi to Cora, who became, like, my first friend [laughs] at college. And, you know, like, sort of when we connected, we, uh, we were talking about what we were studying and what we liked about, uh, our subjects, and then we were visiting these different, um, exhibitions a- about different societies and clubs at the college, uh, fair. So then there was this, like, uh, Oxford Union Fair as well. Um, it's like a famous debating society. [laughs] And, and you know, I was, like, hiding this identity of, of mine of being, you know, an activist, so I'm looking at the, uh, at the poster of the Oxford Union, and I see all of these, like, famous speakers who have spoken there before, and then I see a photo of mine. And I was like, "Ugh," you know? "Why did they put it there?" Or like, "How do I hide myself?" Because [laughs] this is, like, the last thing I want to see. And then some people spotted me. They asked for, uh, a photo. And this friend of mine, like, she was just so supportive. She took, you know, photos, uh, of me, you know, with the fans, and I was like, "Ugh," like, "It's over. She may never wanna talk to me again," like the friendship is over. But once that was done, um, you know, sh- I was like, "I'm so sorry," I said, you know? And, and she said, "It's okay." Like, you know? And, and we just quickly changed our conversation back to, okay, like, you know, what are we gonna get for our groceries or, [laughs] you know, when is, when is our next essay and all of that. I think with friends like these, you-Like, you know, you, you can be more yourself.
- 55:28 – 59:12
Becoming the Unexpected Relationship Guru
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. I d- I think this was, when you were writing about in the book, it was more about school than college, but you became the resident advisor on romance-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes
- JSJay Shetty
... is, is what you say. And then there's this beautiful part where you say, "How are you so good at spotting red flags when you've never been on a date?" And you say, um, "I guess I'm a better coach than a player."
- MYMalala Yousafzai
[laughs] Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
And I was like, you know ... Talk to me about that experience of, again, like it goes back to what you were saying earlier, like you're trying to live up to this-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes
- JSJay Shetty
... symbol. You're not binge-watching TV shows. You're not dating. You're not, you know ...
- MYMalala Yousafzai
No.
- JSJay Shetty
Walk me through that paradox of being a young woman who's ex- wanting to experience the world growing up, but then having to keep this reminder almost of who you st- what you stand for.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah. I mean, I had become this, uh, relationship guru-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MYMalala Yousafzai
... in college [laughs] because everybody was going through some problems with boys.
- JSJay Shetty
Of course.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Uh, you know, you can imagine. There are always problems. Somebody was getting ghosted or, you know, the boy was not replying for two days, and my friend is like, "Do you think he loves me?" And I'm like, "Are, are you missing the sign?"
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MYMalala Yousafzai
[laughs] And, you know, I, you know, I was helping them understand, you know. To some I was saying, like, "You need to move on." Like-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MYMalala Yousafzai
... "There, there's more in life." And then they were like, "How, how do you know it all?" I was like, "I don't know." Um-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah. I do sometimes say, you know, like, a coach doesn't have to be on the field. Like, I, I did not expect to have like a love story. And even though, like just growing up, I had seen Bollywood movies and, uh, everybody has imagined Shah Rukh Khan-like-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah [laughs]
- MYMalala Yousafzai
... figure, you know? We all imagine ourselves in the Shah Rukh Khan songs.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, yeah. Of course.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Um, but I became very self-conscious after the attack because my facial nerve was damaged on the left side, and that, um, caused asymmetry. And, uh, you know, like my smile and, and, and, like, like the features were not the same anymore. And, uh, you know, sort of like you notice, right? Like, you notice you're not the same person anymore. So I became, uh, s- more self-aware and I just thought, "Okay, like, I, you know, I should not ..." Like, I just thought, like, nobody would love me. And at the same time I was like, "But, and nobody..." 'Cause, you know, we're like so, um, hard on ourselves, that we're like, you know, "But nobody should love me, and I just wanna focus on, on the work now. This love life is not for me." So that's sort of what I thought. Um, though in college, I did find a crush. Uh, he was this, like, good-looking guy. Not my husband, a different guy. A good-looking guy, a really mysterious character, uh, more like a gangster kind of character.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MYMalala Yousafzai
I, I did not know I was attracted to, like, the bad boys. [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MYMalala Yousafzai
And it was more like a one-sided love and imagination. It wasn't real because, you know, he would just sometimes, like, say hello to me, come to my room and eat all the bananas and cookies and then [laughs] disappear. He, you know, there was like, there was like, I just had no idea. My friends would sometimes say that, you know, "He's doing drugs and stuff like that, so stay away from him." [laughs] And I was like, "No, he needs my help."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Like, "Somebody needs to protect him." Uh, yeah, but like when you yourself are in that love phase, then it's, you can't see it clearly. It is true. Like, you know-
- 59:12 – 1:02:20
Learning to Love and Be Loved
- JSJay Shetty
I mean, that feeling of, "I won't be loved," and, "Maybe it isn't for me," that feels like a really deep kind of emotion that-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... that doesn't just disappear.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
No.
- JSJay Shetty
What worked to help work through that? Like, what really allowed you to work on that, especially when-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... this feeling came from the incident-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... and it, from, from being attacked. It didn't, it didn't come from yourself. You didn't have that-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes
- JSJay Shetty
... before.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
You know, girls have been sort of told to be insecure about themselves.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
So I would not say that there was, like, literally no insecurity before, but after the attack, I became very, very insecure about my looks, but so much that I just said, "You know what? I don't care about it." When you set a new pathway for yourself and you say, "You know what? Like, love life is not for me. I, I don't care if nobody loves me, and it just doesn't matter." And I think in the middle of that, I just, um, forgot to love myself.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
That was the hard part. But when I found, uh, this new guy in my life, Asser, who's now my husband, so there's, there's a good ending to this story-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MYMalala Yousafzai
[laughs] You know, I, I immediately fell in love with him because he was, like, so good-looking, hot and handsome, funny. He had a good sense of humor. He was laughing at my jokes. I thought, "He's just so entertaining." I was like, "Wow," like, "Is, is he the guy ... Is he, like, the person that I had sort of imagined, um, f- you know, for myself?" So when, you know, when Asser and I started, like, talking and we were getting to know each other, I, I knew that I, I love him and I wanted to be with him. The marriage was a whole different conversation, [laughs] so we can come back to that. But the other conversation was about me accepting that he loves me. I was in so much doubt. I could not trust it. I, you know, I just constantly felt like, you know, "But, but why would he love me?" And then, like, in the end, I just told myself that, you know, you g- somebody can't write, um, a proof to you to say, "Hey, uh, I give you a proof that I love you." Um, if they are treating you with respect and they make you happy and they're there for you and they want to spend the rest of their life with you, then they love you.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
And embrace that, accept that. Like, don't, don't question it, don't doubt it. They're-- You, you can't give them an-any guarantee. They can't give you any guarantee. So I had to, like, process that. It was really hard. But in the end I, I accepted it because I constantly would have these questions in my head. But like, "Are you okay with, like, the way I look? Is it okay if I can't have, like, a, a full smile? Um, and are you okay with, like, sort of the left side of my face and all of that?" Like, sometimes, like, I would try to ask him these question, and sometimes these questions would be floating in my mind.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
And then I would just remind myself, like, "He's, he's here with you. He's looking at you and he's smiling. Like, he can't stop looking at you. [laughs] He's calling you gorgeous and beautiful-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm
- MYMalala Yousafzai
... so accept that, embrace that."
- 1:02:20 – 1:04:33
Seeing Men and Women as True Equals
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Asar loved me and, and, and he, you know, and with him, like, I have felt this immense love and joy. Uh, so he loves me, but more than that, I think I started loving myself.
- JSJay Shetty
Wow. I love hearing that.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
Thank you for sharing that.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes.
- JSJay Shetty
Thank you so much for taking us there and-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes
- JSJay Shetty
... the multitude of emotions that every person goes through, and definitely what women-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... go through, but then to add your own experience to it as well. What was Asar's background like when it comes to-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Mm
- JSJay Shetty
... women's rights and education and w- you know, how did he, what was his viewpoint on that? Of cou- I assume, of course-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes
- JSJay Shetty
... it's supportive. But I would love to know what his journey was and his experience of that was.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah, I mean, he has, uh, two older sisters who are, like, 18 and 16 years older than him, and, uh, so he usually says that he grew up with three moms.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Um, he wasn't as close to his dad. Um, he has, like, the right views. I know sometimes men receive a lot of praise when they're saying the right thing. We're like, "Wow, this man is so nice because he believes women should be allowed to work," or-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MYMalala Yousafzai
... yeah, like, women should be making decisions about their bodies and about their career, anything. We're like, "Wow, he's such a nice man." So yes, I do sometimes say that he is an amazing person, like, so open-minded and, like, he just respects women's dignity and, um, and see, and see them as, like, equal humans-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm
- MYMalala Yousafzai
... and which is, which should be the case. But then at the same time I'm like, "That should be called a basic man."
- JSJay Shetty
Mm. [laughs]
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Just a basic, normal man.
- JSJay Shetty
It's so true. It's such a great-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
You know? It's really hard to process
- JSJay Shetty
... it's such a great point. It's such a great point.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah, and I have been praising my dad so much for being, like, this amazing feminist dad. That should be a basic, normal dad.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. Yeah. Well said.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes.
- JSJay Shetty
Absolutely. I could-- That is brilliant.
- 1:04:33 – 1:09:47
When Marriage Lacks Equality
- JSJay Shetty
sense. Was it, was it hard for you to fall in love and date and build a relationship with the expectations that come from, you know, your home, that come from culture, that come from family? Like, of course, you've talked about your father being more forward-thinking when it comes to women's education.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes.
- JSJay Shetty
But I feel like dating, love, romance, these are not easy topics in-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... in a South Asian home.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
All of these things were on my mind, uh, but I think the one thing that sort of held me back was marriage. Because, you know, like, I had to then understand that, like, in reality, um, if I want to be with Asar, we have to get married because culturally you cannot be with a person, you know, uh, you have to, like, get married to, to live with them.
- JSJay Shetty
Yes.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
So I knew that, you know, I cannot sort of, like, change that whole culture all, all of a sudden. [laughs] Um, and at the same time, like I, I said, you know, like, I have seen how marriage has, um, changed the f-the future of so many girls who were forced into it. I, you know, we know that tens of millions of girls every year are married off before the age of 18, and, and this is, you know, this has been an institution that has given less to women through history and across the globe. So it wasn't that I was against marriage or for marriage or, or any of that, but I was just, like, confused. I said, like, "Okay, like, this, this is not an, uh, an easy decision," and I felt that I was thinking collectively for all women, [laughs] uh, when I was considering marriage for myself. So I, like, on the one hand, I just wanted to be with Asar. I said, like, "There's, there's no doubt about that," but at the same time, I also was grappling with this idea of marriage. In the end, I, you know, I, I did all of my, like, research, and I chatted with my friends, and we were, like, reading books by famous feminist authors and [laughs] all of that. But I said, um, to Asar that, you know, it's, it's about this, like, mutual agreement between us, and, uh, the more we talked, the more sort of I spent time with him, I just understood who he was as a person and how he would be, like, a great, supportive husband. Um, and I, and I just saw how I enjoyed my time in his company, that when I was with him, all these questions that would be floating in my mind would just vanish.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
And I remember we went to Lake Placid, and this was a few months before marriage. While I was still thinking, I said, "Maybe it's, like, over. Maybe, like, I'll ask him all the questions, and he'll answer one incorrectly, and, like, it's done." But the more time we spent together, I sort of, I, I was getting those answers without even asking those questions. So on the last day in Lake Placid, he said, "So, you know, are you gonna ask me the questions finally or not?" And I said, "I think I have the answer." And I said, "I'm ready. I think I'm ready, uh, to be with you for the rest of my life." So then, you know, we, a few months later, we finally got married.And I still say that I am not proposing that marriage is the best decision for every woman out there. I'm not saying it's the worst decision for every woman out there. I think it should be a conversation that we should be having openly and, you know, we should redefine these traditions, these norms, and talk about how it can be this beautiful mutual agreement between two people where they add more to their lives and make each other's lives happier, more joyful, more adventurous, and that we challenge, uh, you know, the, the elements of it that have given less to women and, uh, and you know, and, and talk about the bigger problems.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm. Absolutely, yeah. In the book you wrote, "How to choose between an institution I didn't believe in-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes
- JSJay Shetty
... and a life without the person I loved."
- MYMalala Yousafzai
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
And it's really interesting to hear you make sense of it, and again, it sounds like it was such an intentional decision. And there was so much thought behind why and what and how, and I think that, yeah, I agree with you. No matter whether someone decides to choose to get married or not, I think that level of thought-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes
- JSJay Shetty
... is just inherently important and necessary.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes. But I, because I just thought I would never get married. I would tell all my college friends, "Do not get married. Um, stay away from boys. It's just a waste of time," and all of that. So I was like a s- I was strongly against marriage [laughs] for a, for a long time, and then I, I fell in love and-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MYMalala Yousafzai
... I was the first one in my friend's group to get married.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MYMalala Yousafzai
They were rolling their eyes.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
They were like, "Seriously? Seriously, that's what you were advocating against?"
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
I was like, "Oopsie." You know?
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MYMalala Yousafzai
I was like, "You know, you should never listen to a person, you know, if they randomly give you advice." I said, "I'm an education activist. Like, listen to me on that. Don't consider me an expert on every topic, especially marriage." [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
- 1:09:47 – 1:12:26
Investing in the Future of Girls’ Education
- JSJay Shetty
How, how do you, when you look at just how your life has changed, how the world has changed, when you observe what's happening in the world today, what do you focus on? What are you reflecting on? What are you aware of?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
I think the world is, um, constantly changing, but right now it feels that it is becoming more and more difficult for, for women and girls. And I'm saying this because of what we are witnessing right now happening in Afghanistan. For the past four years, the Taliban have limited women and girls from education, work, and any public and political life. The Afghan women activists and different human rights groups are calling it a gender apartheid, which means that it is a form of an apartheid or a systematic oppression simply based on gender, that if you are born a girl, you have a different life. You cannot even dream to be in school or to work. Um, so, like, when I, when I just think about what's happening with girls' education, how there's, there is a country where girls are banned from education, and at the same time there are conflicts, wars, and a genocide happening where schools are bombed, where children are attacked, um, and children are losing their future, like, you know, from Sudan, Congo, all the way to Palestine, like what we have witnessed happen in, uh, in Gaza, like right in front of our eyes on our screens. It's, it's, like, it's terrifying. Um, I just simply wish for a future for girls where they can live a dignified life with full access to education, and we know that that cannot happen if we do not address the problems or the injustices that are happening right in front of our eyes. So these topics, you know, whether it's about, uh, the wars and conflicts or whether it's about, like, climate-related events like floods or other injustices, like you, we cannot separate them from how it's affecting girls' education. And at the same time, like, you know, we can, we can, we can think differently. We can think about investing in the future of, uh, girls. We can think about investing in education or focusing on, on children as a way to help us address these problems as well. So education is like one of the, the most powerful and, like, best solutions to a lot of the world inequalities, injustices. Um, so that's, you know, that's something that I advocate for. That's the focus of my work. Um, so, so these are like the issues that I focus
- 1:12:26 – 1:15:47
Changing the Narrative for Equality
- MYMalala Yousafzai
on.
- JSJay Shetty
What are you seeing that's actually making a change-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Mm-hmm
- JSJay Shetty
... in places where women and young girls have been held back?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
What are you actually seeing is moving the needle and creating the shifts that you're wanting?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah. It is the local activists who are driving real change on the ground. My father and I started as local education activists in Swat Valley. I thought, like, nobody knew what we were going through more than us, and I feel the same about all of these other pressing problems that we hear about in the world. You know, if we are talking about Afghanistan, if we are talking about Gaza, if we are talking about Nigeria, if we are talking about girls' education challenges in Pakistan or, or, or other countries, we have to work together with the local activists because they understand the problems, and they understand the best solutions to those problems as well. So, you know, when I started my foundation, Malala Fund, like I know I was ambitious to, like, make change happen everywhere, but I had to really question myself. What can help us make real change? I, you know, I have given many speeches and rec- received many awards and all of that. I can tell you that it's not about one speech. Even though, like, in history we are sort of taught, like, it was that one speech of I have a dream that changed everything. No, I think it's, it's decades-long work to shift narrative, to change policies, to change the law.That is real change. A- and yes, everything like adds up. You know, we cannot say that, you know, one action is completely useless. It adds up, but we have to have a bigger picture. So through Malala Fund, we are investing in local education activists in Nigeria, in Pakistan. We're also working in Ethiopia, Tanzania, and Brazil, and then Afghanistan is our priority country because of the literal ban on girls' education. We are providing support to the local education activists who are giving alternative education to girls right now. You know, we're thinking about ways to help take education to the homes of girls when the Taliban are not allowing them to be in school. This is like our short-term response. But we cannot, you know, see this, uh, as, as normal. Girls should be allowed to be in school. So we are also supporting the Afghan women activists who are doing advocacy, leading these campaigns, asking leaders to hold the Taliban accountable, and they're asking leaders to codify gender apartheid, to recognize what's happening in Afghanistan as a gender apartheid, to put more pressure on the Taliban, to include women in the rooms where decisions about their future are made, to put women's rights on the agenda, and to change the reality that women and girls in Afghanistan are living under. Like, for me, if you ask me, are we doing enough or not? [laughs] For me, like, the, the response is like, yes, we are doing something. But I think about the girls who are out of school right now. For as long as the ban continues and, and girls are not in school, I don't think we're doing enough. So we constantly need to be doing more, um, whatever is in our capacity to help Afghan women and girls have the future that they deserve. So supporting local ed- education activists is the most powerful way to drive real change.
- 1:15:47 – 1:18:05
Empowering the Next Generation of Women
- JSJay Shetty
That's really helpful because I think so many people want to help, and they don't know where to start-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... or what the right thing to do is. And to hear that from you, I think will give a lot of people here the opportunity. A lot of our listeners-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes
- JSJay Shetty
... are people who want to serve, who want to support-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes
- JSJay Shetty
... who wanna help, uh, from across the world. And I guess the Malala Fund and some of these-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes
- JSJay Shetty
... places that you're supporting would be great places-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... for people to contribute.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
This is the model of Malala Fund. It's like the fundraising we do, we allocate, uh, that money into grants into these local organizations who are working in all of the countries that I mentioned, like Nigeria, Pakistan, Afghanistan. And I have visited the work of these organizations. Like, I was in Nigeria, and these activists are just incredible people. Some of them have worked for decades. They have changed policies in multiple states. Like five years ago, you know, a girl was not guaranteed education beyond her primary level. And today, you know, she's guaranteed her secondary education. It's because of the work of these activists.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
So they do an incredible work. They have changed the lives of so many girls, empowered them, um, and when I meet the girls, like, you can see the change happen, like, right in front of your eyes. So it's like they're, uh, truly inspiring. And I, and I actually focus on, um, supporting young women and girl activists. So when we talk about activists, I'm like, "We have to support the girls because they're the ones who are actually experiencing-"
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
"... these problems and these challenges, and they can be the best ones to actually advocate, uh, for their rights." So I, I also focus on, like, giving grants and support to the girls' activists.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm. That's incredible. Thank you for sharing that. And I-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... I really hope that, uh, if I, if I can be useful at all or of service, then please let me know. I'd love to-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah. Thank you
- JSJay Shetty
... be involved. It's such a-- I, I have a younger sister.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes.
- JSJay Shetty
And I feel like-- I was raised by my mom and took care of my younger sister, so I feel like I've always grown up with that understanding and, and-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... at least a, at least a, a feeling of that. And having grown up in London, of course it was-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes
- JSJay Shetty
... somewhat easier. But at the same time, you still see the discrepancies that exist. And so, yeah, if I can be useful, please let me know.
- 1:18:05 – 1:20:26
Thirteen Years After the Attack
- JSJay Shetty
I was-- As I've been listening to you today, Malala, I've been wondering now when you look back at the attack and you look back on that moment-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Mm
- JSJay Shetty
... how do you process it after the therapy, after the years away, after the seven years when it came back?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Mm.
- JSJay Shetty
Like, how do you view that day and event now-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... after all this time?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Funny enough, today is the ninth of October while we are recording it, and this is the date when the attack happened, so it's been 13 years. Um, do you know I live it as a normal day? I do not want to think about it. It is really hard to process this day because somehow this day is about the gunman who attacked me. And, and that's why, like, I j- I just... And I want this go-- I, I want this day to go as fast as it can because I just do not want to think about, you know, how a, you know, a person, a gunman could decide to target a 15-year-old girl. It's really hard. Uh, it's not just about, like, what I experienced, but it puts you in a place where you feel less hope for humanity. Uh, but in moments like these, I just try to live this day as normal as I can and not think about it, and I just remind myself of the millions of people who stood with me and supported me. I think about the immense love that I have received. I just think about the incredible activists who have joined hands with me to help create a better future for girls. I just think about the collective work that we are all doing. So, you know, I, I just reflect on, um-On how we can create a world where no other child faces a bullet.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
How we can create a world where every child can have the right to be in school, and play, and read, and learn, and have a normal childhood.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
So it's just a reminder of, of, of this commitment to creating a better future for, for every girl and every child out there. So that's, that's what I focus on.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. I r- I really appreciate
- 1:20:26 – 1:22:53
The Heart of True Activism
- JSJay Shetty
how human and true that answer is. Because I think often we, we externally, we project a glamorized view-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... where people are like, "Oh, yeah, that, that, that was the day everything changed," and, you know, "My life, I, I look back and it was one of the best things that ever happened because o-," and it's like, you know, just, it's, it's unhealthy and it's-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes
- JSJay Shetty
... it's wonderful to hear it from a very human emotion of just like-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes
- JSJay Shetty
... "I don't like to think about it." You know?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
It's, it's r- it's, i- it's, it's much more, much more real to hear you say that, and, and I think it's important. That's what I think this book, Finding My Way, does.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Mm-hmm.
- JSJay Shetty
Is that people get a real view on what activism actually looks like, because I think we have ... I think we're looking for heroes, and because we're looking for heroes, we have a glorified view-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Mm-hmm
- JSJay Shetty
... of what activism looks like.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah. We, we see them as like a more global figure.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Global figures are also doing amazing things, but it's the people who we have not heard of, we have not seen on our screens, that are changing the lives of people. I have traveled to so many countries and, and met incredible activists who have transformed the lives of girls by standing up for their education. Like, I was in Tanzania and I learnt about these incredible activists, um, who themselves, when they were in school, um, you know, had to fight for, for staying in school every day. And today, they are changing the lives of many girls out there. They're, you know, giving them bicycles because they have to walk for long, um, distances to, to have the safety and to make it to school sooner. They are, uh, giving them safety s- uh, in schools. They are changing the laws which did not allow girls who became pregnant and mothers at a young age to return to school. They have, like, reversed that. They're like, "Every girl [laughs] should be in school." Uh, when you look at these milestones, it just gives you so much more hope. And, um, and I'm just, like, so proud of the work that Afghan women activists are doing. They are resilient. They are standing up to the Taliban, and, uh, they are the future of Afghanistan. So I have so much hope. You know, I, I know that the Taliban would not be in power forever. It's the wo- it's the Afghan women and girls who will be shaping the future of their country.
- 1:22:53 – 1:28:05
Building Schools That Transform Lives
- JSJay Shetty
Malala, before we end, usually I end with a Final Five.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Okay. [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
Before we do that, I wanted to ask you, is there anything that I haven't asked you about that you wish you had a chance to share here?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
In this book, one other topic that, uh, I discuss is a sense of belonging.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
And I have really struggled with that because of the way I had to leave Pakistan. I have been to Pakistan many more times after that, because I just did not want to give up on seeing my home again.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Um, I wanted to see the mountains, be by the river, smell the, the fresh air, and, um, and be in the place where I grew up. Uh, but at the same time, I have now met so many people around the world. I have seen different countries, and I have found a sense of belonging everywhere now.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
And I feel this sense of belonging when I'm in the company of my family, when I'm chatting with my friends and we are laughing out loud, or when I am, you know, holding the hand of my husband. Uh, this is sort of the sense of belonging that, that I feel. Um, and I think, you know, it's like when you, when you meet so many people, you just realize we're all one.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
So I hope that we can, uh, promote more of that. Uh, and I have always had this sense of like, like home, and I, and I was always looking for home. Like, you know, we, we've always lived in rented buildings, so [laughs] I just never thought, like, what was my, my real and my true home. Uh, but now, you know, for me, like, home, home is everywhere. And I have, um, been on this journey to make change happen for, for girls in the world, and the one place that was always on my mind was, uh, my own hometown in Pakistan, where I saw how girls were still dreaming to finish their school, and there were, there were no high school in the village where, where my parents were born. So when, when I started, like, Malala Fund and when I, uh, won the Nobel Peace Prize, it came with the, with the prize money as well. So I said, "You know what? I am gonna make a school there."
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
And it's considered to be one of the most difficult areas to work in because it's up in the mountains, and nobody wants to go and work there. But I said, "If we can make it happen there, I think we can make it happen in any part of the country." We s- you know, we work- we worked on it for the past seven, eight years, and this year, the first class graduated.
- JSJay Shetty
Wow.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
I went to Pakistan in March. I visited the school for the first time. It was so different than what I had seen on PowerPoint [laughs] presentations and in photos. Uh, you know, like just, just seeing that in the middle of these, of these mountains, there is this beautiful school where girls are learning, they are playing, they are, um-... talking, they're laughing. They are dreaming of having a future for themselves. Uh, it was the most rewarding feeling, and what I loved was the, the support that they receive. Like, they play chess, and it's like a state-of-the-art school. They have all of these different, like, activities. It's, it's an incredible school. But, uh, when I saw the, uh, the mental health office, that made me so happy.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
And the girls were telling me how they get, um, mental health support. They sometimes do these different activities where they just sing together and dance, and sometimes just scream to let it all out. Um, so when I was just reflecting on my own mental health journey and how I wished we had, like, more support, that I had more support, um, and, and how, you know, we want more support for girls, it just gave me so much joy that the girls were getting the support that they were, uh ... that, that they deserved, uh, and that they should have. So that was such a, a rewarding moment, and it gives me hope that we can make education a reality for every girl in every corner of the world. And all those 122 million girls who do not have access to education, we, we can do something for them. We can, we, we can ensure that every girl can be in school, every girl can complete her education.
- JSJay Shetty
First of all, congratulations.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Thank you.
- JSJay Shetty
I mean, that, that is such a ... I can't comprehend or conceive of just how momentous that is for you-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... to be able to open that school. And what I love about your focus is that there's the academic education-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes
- JSJay Shetty
... but there's also that value that you're putting on the emotional education that all of these girls require so that they can truly-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... achieve their full potential-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... and not be held back.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah.
- 1:28:05 – 1:32:31
Malala on Final Five
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
It's incredible. Uh, Malala, it's been such a privilege and honor to talk to you, honestly. I, I really, I really mean that. I always knew it would be, uh, but meeting you and sitting with you here face to face, getting the chance to read your book-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
... early, uh, it's, it's beyond what I expected. It's surpassed all my expectations, just the, the depth, the grace, uh, the humor with which you carry yourself as well is-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Thank you. So you would give it five stars? [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
It's so endearing. More, more. Uh, uh, we, we end every episode of On Purpose with a Final Five.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yes.
- JSJay Shetty
These questions have to be answered in one sen- one word. I always say one word to one sentence, but-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
But nobody does. [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
No one does it, so it's, uh, we can ignore it, but one sentence maximum. Uh, but Malala, these are your Final Five.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Okay.
- JSJay Shetty
The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever had or received?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
I love it when people make you feel that they're there for you. You know, their words mean everything to me, uh, of course, I, um, and I really appreciate that. And I also offer, like, words of support to the girls I meet, and sometimes, you know, like, people roll their eyes, like-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- MYMalala Yousafzai
... "Ugh, you know, what can, what can they do to a girl's life when you tell them, 'Believe in yourself. Follow your dreams?'" But I remember hearing those words when I was a, a, you know, a child, and it meant everything to me because some people give you this hope and this belief that maybe you can do it, too. So these things mean a lot, but I think more than that, it's, it's y- it's you offering your support and making somebody feel that you are there for them. They're not alone. Um, I think actions are just way more powerful.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Love that answer. And, and you're so right that these cliches are a cliche for a reason because, you know, when you tell someone you believe in them, sometimes someone needs to hear that the most in that moment.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
And so it can't be undervalued. Uh, question number two, what is the worst advice you've ever had or received?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
[laughs] Whew. Uh, the list is long. Maybe getting a fringe cut.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Fringe like bangs.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs] That's-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
I did it in COVID time. I did it in COVID time.
- JSJay Shetty
That's such a good answer.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
No, it was terrible. It was a terrible, terrible advice that I took from a friend, and, ugh-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MYMalala Yousafzai
... I wait for, like, two years for it to return to the normal length.
- JSJay Shetty
That is a brilliant answer.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
That's so good.
- 1:32:31 – 1:34:52
Why Girls’ Education Is Still Discouraged
- JSJay Shetty
million girls in the world who don't have access to education, what's the primary reason for that? Or how does that break down across?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah, I mean, you know, there are many reasons for that. Uh, on the one hand, it is the supply side issues. So there are, like, not enough schools, there are not enough safe schools, the quality of teaching is not good, uh, distance to school is, is a big challenge. Safety of school is a big problem. So because of all of these reasons, a girl is not in school. Uh, in many places there are not enough high schools for girls, so people have invested enough in primary, but have not invested enough in the secondary education of girls. But then at the same time, there, there are also, like, cultural and social norms where, you know, it's become a taboo where girls are not allowed to be in school. We're seeing this happen in Afghanistan, uh, and many other parts of the world where just education is discouraged for girls. Uh, there are just too many restrictions that girls face. But I do believe that, you know, th- there is a way for us to work towards solving these problems. Uh, and I think it has to start with investing in education. We have to address the supply side issues first because you wanna make a school before you go and address the more, like, you know, the social stigma or, uh, or, you know, how, how do we change the mentality, and sometimes those things just happen naturally.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
We have seen in many areas, including, um, my parents' village in Pakistan, where once a school was built and a state-of-the-art education was provided, the norms started changing themselves because they saw that the, they saw the real power of education, how these girls are like, are, you know, are having, um, these different career paths that they could achieve. They could not only be helping themselves, but they could be helping their families as well. And, and everybody realizes that it's actually a benefit to the community as well when a girl receives her education. There's economic empowerment, there's more prosperity, poverty reduces, um, and, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's for the benefit of everybody when girls are receiving an education.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Including men and boys. It helps men and boys as well when we have more women educated and empowered.
- JSJay Shetty
Talk about that,
- 1:34:52 – 1:37:07
How Educated and Empowered Women Create Cultural Change
- JSJay Shetty
because I think that's a, that's a challenge that's being talked about in the West right now.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Mm.
- JSJay Shetty
At least this idea in America that now if you look at it, women are more likely to graduate. They're, they're qualifying more than men are, and that's an interesting talking point. Talk to us about how women being educated is actually good for men as well.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Educated and empowered women, um, actually are helping men in their families as well. Um, I d- you know, I do not know about, like, every country and every context, but I have seen how, um, this shift has happened where, you know, the, the boys were sort of usually told, like, "You are supposed to be the breadwinner." The w- girl is married off, but the boys are supposed to be taking care of the family. But if the girl is also able to get her education, she can also contribute to the family. It reduces the burden that is expected from the boys, um, and that everybody's contributing to, to, to the family, and as everybody can look after each other as well. Uh, we have also seen that when, like, more women are educated, um, and there are open conversations about, you know, the, the role of men and, like, challenging gender stereotypes, that can, like, help us have better, you know, feminist men or, like, men who appreciate, uh, women's rights and they're like-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm
- MYMalala Yousafzai
... uh, so, you know, we need, we need better sons, we need better brothers, we need better husbands and fathers as well. So, you know, I think working for girls' education is, is sort of a way in which we can have more productive and helpful conversations and see this cultural shift. And at the same time, like, when we talk about investing in girls' education and talk about policy change, that, it also directly benefits boys' education.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Uh, it's never about, like, invest in girls' schools only. It's about invest in every school. But let's come up with gender-inclusive policies so we are addressing the problems that specifically cause girls to drop out or that can help us ensure that a girl makes it to the next year in her school. Um, and, and it can also help us, you know, when it's gender inclusive, it can also address the problems that boys are also facing.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm. Wonderful answer. Uh,
- 1:37:07 – 1:48:17
Child Marriages Should Stop
- JSJay Shetty
how, how prevalent is child marriage still?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah, I mean, um, child marriage is, is still a big issue in, in many countries, and, uh, sometimes, you know, we sort of see news how the law is also being reversed. I think I heard about it happening in, um, I think Iraq, um, which is, like, really crazy. I think it should, it should be a law in every country where, um, like, you know, a child should not be married off. It should be just illegal. It should be banned, and people who do it should be held accountable for that. Um, and at the same time, we need to sort of change, change and challenge the culture around it as well. So, you know, using storytelling, TV shows, and stuff like that can also help us, um, to, to change, to change these perspectives. But it's, it's an, it's an issue that is affecting many girls, like, including in, in Pakistan, India, and other parts of the world.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. Couldn't agree with you more. Thank you for those two parts I'll put into the episode accordingly. I w- I took-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... a little detour. Uh, question number four of the Final Five: What does peace look like for you today?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
So when you asked about peace, I just think about world peace immediately, um, because I have lived under a time when we used to hear gunshots and suicide attacks and bombings and, you know, like every ten minutes you would, you would hear a sound, and you were just worried, like, whose house has been targeted, who has lost their life. So when somebody asks me about peace, I don't think about, like, you know, peace at heart or, you know, being at peace with yourself. I immediately think about world peace and, you know, I, I just, I hope bombings, I hope wars stop, you know. We have to speak out against it. Um, you know, what I have experienced personally and, and how I have seen other girls and boys being targeted at school, um, and, and you know, how they have lost their loved ones, how they themselves have been injured. I met, uh, Palestinian refugees in Egypt just a, a few weeks ago, and I just saw, like, you know, they, they were injured. They had lost a sibling. They, they were separated from their family members. It is just heartbreaking how, um, absence of peace, uh, is, is, is taking away the right to life from, from so many people. They cannot live a normal life that we all, um, you know, most of us are, are, are privileged to have. So when I am -- at moments when I, I'm just, like, looking outside the window and I, and I see a normal life, I'm like, "Okay, you know, there are normal cars, and people are walking around, and, and people are chatting and laughing, and, and, and there's no bombing, no firing. Buildings are not destroyed." I, I just, uh, feel grateful.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Um, but I, I wish that for everybody. I think it has to stop. These are all human-made things. They're not happening itself. These are human-made. We have to really question ourselves about the hatred that is created, these hateful ideologies that are created, how people are being dehumanized. Like, the dehumanization of, of people is a very big problem. That's where it begins, and that's what worries me the most when I think about, like, you know, what's happening to women and girls in Afghanistan. They're being considered as second-class humans. When we think about these different wars that are happening or what's happening in Gaza, it's, you know, it's like the dehumanization. Um, so, uh, you know, I hope that people see each other as equal. Uh, we see, you know, our s- we see ourselves in, in, in other people. Um, and we, you know, stand up to this, you know, these arms and these, like, violent tools that are being spread in the world, um, because it's, it's, it's a big problem. So I, I wish for real world peace, and then that would give me peace. Um, and I would feel more at peace with my- with myself.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm. What would you say to a young girl who looks at the state of the world and doesn't feel hopeful right now?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
I would tell her, you know, I felt that many times. I still feel it many times. But then I remind myself that there's something that I can do today. Um, I feel that we all have the capacity to drive for change. So sometimes we want the world to change. We want somebody else to make it happen. Um, but we cannot wait for it to happen itself or for somebody else to do it for us. Sometimes it's us who can be that change maker. So I don't want you to lose h-hope. So I don't want you to lose hope, and I want you to know that you could be the change maker. You could shift things, and you could drive change.
- JSJay Shetty
And fifth and final question, we ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?
- MYMalala Yousafzai
One law? [laughs] You know, I'm not, like, uh, that aggressive. [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MYMalala Yousafzai
I'm not authoritarian. [laughs] Though I have a lot of laws and rules, uh, for my husband and my brothers-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MYMalala Yousafzai
... and my dad. A lot of rules for men. Maybe we should just have just rules for men who cause a lot of problems.
- JSJay Shetty
Correct. [laughs]
- MYMalala Yousafzai
I mean, I j- I, you know, I do see the significance of creating laws on the one hand, because, you know, what's happening in Afghanistan is beyond just gender discrimination. And if we look at the current laws in the international, uh, system, it cannot recognize the scale of the oppression that is happening there. So that's exactly why Afghan women activists are advocating, uh, for it to be recognized as a gender apartheid in the Crime Against Humanity Treaty, which basically means is that, like, countries should not just be allowed to, uh, look away or normalize re-relationships with the Taliban or just simply condemn it and just feel like, "Okay, you know, we have done our job." That countries should be obliged to respond, and countries should be held accountable to respond, and they cannot be allowed to normalize relationships with oppressive regimes like the Taliban. So I, I think, you know, better laws are really important. We just need more protection for w- for, for girls' rights. And right now, it is a crime for girls to be learning in Afghanistan. Let's process that. They're punished if they disobey this rule, because the Taliban are abusing their power, and they're punishing women, putting them in prisons if they disobey any of their absurd rules and restrictions that they have imposed. But on the other hand, if we look at our international law systemIt is not recognizing what the Taliban are doing as a crime. I th- I think the, the ban on education in itself should be recognized as an international crime, and the Taliban should be held accountable for that. Um, so I do believe that there is sig- a huge significance in creating laws that can protect the right to education for girls and that can protect the rights of women in vulnerable, uh, communities. At the same time, I also think it's about, you know, how, how we change as people and how we do things differently and how we challenge ourselves. You know, we don't need n- we don't necessarily need laws to be acting differently. Like, you know, um, the m- the most powerful thing is free will.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
And we all have the free will to be better, to be doing the right thing. Um, we don't necessarily need laws. So sometimes I just also think about, uh, us doing better, um, and, and just being more responsible, standing up for what is right, standing against injustices, and sharing solidarity with those who are oppressed and who need our support.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm. Malala, thank you so much for-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
It wasn't one word, right? [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
That wasn't, but it was brilliant. It was ... Thank you so much for-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Thank you
- JSJay Shetty
... writing this book, Finding My Way. Thank you for coming and sharing it with our community here today, and thank you for having the courage to continue to find courage in all your different-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Mm
- JSJay Shetty
... transitions and phases of life. I-
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Thank you
- JSJay Shetty
... feels like you've lived a million different lives in, you know, the short span that you've been here on Earth. But your words, your actions, your work affects millions and millions and millions of people every day.
- MYMalala Yousafzai
Thank you. I just want to say one final thing-
Episode duration: 1:48:17
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