Skip to content
Jay Shetty PodcastJay Shetty Podcast

MATTHEW MCCONAUGHEY: The BIGGEST Mistake You are Making in LIFE! (I Wish I Knew THIS Sooner!)

Matthew McConaughey didn’t build his life by trying to control every outcome. He built it by learning when to let go and when to trust. Today, Jay sits down with Matthew for a raw, unfiltered exploration of purpose, faith, discipline, and what it really means to live well. It’s an honest conversation about the moments that shape us, and the choices that quietly define who we become. Together, they move through certainty and surrender, ambition and presence, effort and trust. Matthew opens up about his lifelong relationship with achievement and his growing desire to create space for stillness, daydreaming, and reflection. He shares how writing became a way to strip away filters and speak more directly to his truth, and how fatherhood reshaped his understanding of responsibility, humility, and love. Jay and Matthew explore failure as a sign of growth, and how disappointment when met with self-awareness, can teach rather than define us. Together they reveal a powerful insight: growth doesn’t come from trying to perfect ourselves, but from learning how to stay present, curious, and grounded through every season of life. Matthew reflects on the balance between taking responsibility and letting go, between striving for excellence and accepting imperfection. He shares why he believes the world is conspiring to make us happy, not through ease, but through meaning, effort, and alignment. In this interview, you'll learn: How to Trust Life Without Losing Control How to Redefine Success Beyond Achievement How to Learn From Failure Without Shame How to Build Trust Before You Need It How to Stay Present Without Chasing Perfection How to Strengthen Love Through Daily Intention How to Find Meaning When Answers Aren’t Clear Life isn’t asking you to be perfect, it’s asking you to be present. To stay curious. To keep learning. To choose courage over comfort and intention over autopilot. No matter where you are right now, progress is still possible, meaning is still available, and your next step matters. Explore Matthew McConaughey’s reflections on faith, belief, and the human experience in his book Poems & Prayers: http://poemsprayers.com/ With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty Join over 750,000 people to receive my most transformative wisdom directly in your inbox every single week with my free newsletter. Subscribe here. Check out our Apple subscription to unlock bonus content of On Purpose! https://lnk.to/JayShettyPodcast What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 01:16 The Drive for Purpose and Accomplishment 04:23 Living With a Beginner’s Mind 07:20 What Chapter of Life Are You In Right Now? 13:21 Why You’re Exactly Where You Need to Be 16:25 How Your View of Success Shapes Failure 20:39 Humility Means Being Honest With Yourself 23:15 The Power of Consequences 25:47 You Just Need to Take One Step at a Time 30:49 Staying Grounded in Faith Through Real Life Experiences 34:37 Ways to Strengthen Your Spiritual Practice 45:29 What is Truly Fascinating About Being Human? 50:45 Are We Expecting Too Much From Others? 58:57 Where Do You Seek Validation? 01:01:56 Learning to Trust Without Losing Control 01:08:28 When Everything Matters, Nothing Does 01:13:24 A More Realistic Way to Think About Love 01:24:14 Understanding Both Sides of Consequence 01:27:49 Matthew on Final Five Episode Resources: Poems & Prayers | http://poemsprayers.com/ Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/officiallymcconaughey/ YouTube | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChH3PVceKAMkFXHza0PlX_Q X | https://x.com/McConaughey Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/MatthewMcConaughey/ TikTok | https://www.tiktok.com/@officiallymcconaughey_m https://www.instagram.com/jayshetty https://www.facebook.com/jayshetty/ https://x.com/jayshetty https://www.linkedin.com/in/shettyjay/ https://www.youtube.com/@JayShettyPodcast http://jayshetty.me

Jay ShettyhostMatthew McConaugheyguest
Jan 12, 20261h 34mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:001:16

    Intro

    1. JS

      [instrumental music] When you think about your life right now, you do so much. You were just talking about all the projects and travel and everything. If you ever get a day that has no plan, no schedule, no timeline, no phone-

    2. MM

      Mm.

    3. JS

      -no commitments, what does that look like for you?

    4. MM

      Oh. I don't get many of those, and I need to... My hunch is I need to learn to get m- more of those. And when I get 'em, I can be better at 'em.

    5. JS

      [laughs]

    6. MM

      Because I have a love of accomplishment, to even feel a significance for the day.

    7. JS

      Mm.

    8. MM

      You know, I sleep better, um, when I have a purpose and I went after something, even if it's just building something. And, um, I w- I'm, I'm still learning. I'm gonna remind myself now, I used to be better at it, actually, to just go daydream. Mosey. Let's take a mo- everything's gonna swing

  2. 1:164:23

    The Drive for Purpose and Accomplishment

    1. MM

      by today. That's one thing. I've start- I quit calling ap- appointments appointments and call 'em swing bys.

    2. JS

      Mm.

    3. MM

      And all of a sudden I find I get just as much done, but I, but I'm just... It's just in my dance-

    4. JS

      Yeah. Yeah

    5. MM

      ...of the day. But if I have one full day off, um, I will get my nine-and-a-half hours sleep, which is pr- preferred, which means maybe I sleep till 9:30. I'll get up, um, take my time, mosey down. If Camila was up, my wife was up before me, she'll have left me a, a matcha tea. If, uh, if she wasn't or had to rush out the door, I'll go make that tea. While the water's boiling, I'll, I'll go probably, uh, do eight pieces of a puzzle, which is a, a wonderful way. I love starting my day on that slow, simple, ah, eight little connections.

    6. JS

      [laughs]

    7. MM

      Ha. You made, you rhymed eight different things.

    8. JS

      Yes.

    9. MM

      Very simple. Then I'll usually head out to the, maybe the front porch, have that first tea, catch, hopefully catch 15 minutes of some morning sun and face. Um, then I'll, uh, um, catch up on the, on the, the, the, the, the world's news, what's happening. Uh, maybe I'll do my Wordle. Couple simple-

    10. JS

      [laughs]

    11. MM

      ...little things. I'm gonna try and play tennis somewhere in the day.

    12. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. MM

      I'm gonna try and break a sweat somewhere during the day. Um, I'll take some project or something that I'm working on or writing with me maybe to my gym and have one of those lazy little two-and-a-half hour workouts where you kind of stop and write some things, and then you kind of get, hop back into it. And then, uh, I'm probably gonna cook dinner that night when I don't have anything going on.

    14. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    15. MM

      So either I'm gonna get the ribeyes and, and, and rub 'em down in my rub and have everything, and, and, and, or I'm gonna do tuna melts for the family that night. Um, and then, uh, kids and everyone come home. We'll usually hang. I'm picking, I'm saying this day that I have off is a school day.

    16. JS

      Yeah.

    17. MM

      And, uh, we'll hang, catch up on days. After that, maybe we, the family will all go catch something, one of our favorite shows. We'll go watch an hour, and if we start early enough, maybe we get two episodes.

    18. JS

      [laughs]

    19. MM

      Kids will go down, then, uh, Camila and I get to hang and, uh, for the last couple hours of the evening. That'd be, that'd be a mosey through my day-day.

    20. JS

      Nice. I love that.

    21. MM

      Yeah.

    22. JS

      How, how... Obviously, the, uh, mindset of achievement and purpose and growth has served you so well, but there's a part of you that sounds like, "I would like more days like this." Where does that come from?

    23. MM

      I love to be on task. I love to have something that I'm building and reaching to finish and, and do. I love the building of that. I've started a lot of the campfires in my life that I'm still building. Um, and I have plenty to fill my 24-hour days. At the same time, I wanna keep learning and, and be inspired by something new.

    24. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    25. MM

      You know, pick up something that I didn't... Like, I just picked up tennis four years ago. I didn't have... I noticed, I said, "You haven't had a hobby for 25 years, McConaughey. You found your first hobby." I thought writing was a hobby. And I was like, no, that's actually not a hobby. You know? But to find,

  3. 4:237:20

    Living With a Beginner’s Mind

    1. MM

      to be open to finding a new hobby, a new, to go somewhere and not, "I don't know. Where are we going?" "Oh, we're just going for a walk."

    2. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. MM

      To no destination in particular.

    4. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. MM

      You know? To, to lose track of time-

    6. JS

      Yeah

    7. MM

      ...with success and with a busy life, and I got a full life, and I got a family, and I got a career. I, my hunch is that while that can fill my days completely, for my own evolution and art, just to make sure I can still have that beginner's mind where I can da- go da- go daydream-

    8. JS

      Mm

    9. MM

      ...for nothing in particular. Go f- go, go, go where your nose takes you.

    10. JS

      Mm-hmm. [laughs]

    11. MM

      You know what I mean? Or go where your ears take you. Follow that. To give my, to make sure I'm giving myself time to let that happen-

    12. JS

      Yeah

    13. MM

      ...I think is a good pro- I think is a good... It, it always seems to pay off.

    14. JS

      Yes. Yes.

    15. MM

      And it never is looked at as, like, time not well spent.

    16. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    17. MM

      You know what I mean?

    18. JS

      Yeah.

    19. MM

      But in the time, I can get a little bit anxious and be like, "Let's do. Let's get ahead on that thing," you know? "Let's, let's bring that thing that you were supposed to have done next Friday. What if we got that done now?"

    20. JS

      Yeah. Yeah.

    21. MM

      You know?

    22. JS

      I can relate to that.

    23. MM

      Yeah.

    24. JS

      I can, I can relate to that, and I can see it too in, in how easy it is as someone who loves what they do and loves creating and building and how-

    25. MM

      That's-

    26. JS

      I, I fully get it.

    27. MM

      That's-

    28. JS

      Yeah.

    29. MM

      I mean, there's the upside, and I'm, I'm not over here bitching about that.

    30. JS

      No, no, no. Yeah.

  4. 7:2013:21

    What Chapter of Life Are You In Right Now?

    1. MM

      a better word, opportunity. You just... It's a time where, for whatever reason, man looks back and goes, "What have I done, and now where am I going?" And I think my hunch is that most people go through what they call a midlife crisis, and if it's hard for them or not healthy for them, it's because maybe they're not giving enough credit to what they actually have done to get there.

    2. JS

      Mm.

    3. MM

      You know? It's like, "Oh, no, I did that."

    4. JS

      Yeah.

    5. MM

      "Done. Next." You know? Like we're talking about me. I need more accomplishment. Well, wait a minute. Sometimes it's all right to go, what, what did you do back there that actually you're still building? What if we take that to another level? Uh, put another log on that fire.

    6. JS

      Mm.

    7. MM

      My goal when I hit the 50s, it, my, my goal, it, it came to me, was like, hey, you're an actor. You, you, you, you, you play a character in someone else's script that someone else wrote, directed by someone else, lensed in a camera from someone else, and edited by someone else before your performance is shared. And I love acting, but I go, there's four filters of my raw expression before it's getting to you. We were talking about this before we got on camera today. You got, you go on stage, boom, it's direct. This is pretty direct, but there's still a filter here.

    8. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. MM

      You know what I mean? Writing, there's still one filter. That's, but that's when I headed into writing is I wanted to get rid of three of the filters, and that's when I said, oh, what if I write the word? Can I pull off and give someone, translate the human experience where they, people can see themselves through words?

    10. JS

      Mm.

    11. MM

      Can I paint a picture of my own experiences which someone else can go, "Oh, I've been there. I know what you're talking about"? But that's still a filter. So the challenge I've been, that, that keeps just gnawing at me since I've turned 50 is like, what's your documentary? What, what, what are you doing? Are you a character in life, in the big show, the one that our action was called the day you were born, and cut will be called the day you die? What, what, what are you doing live? Is that worth a show?

    12. JS

      Mm.

    13. MM

      Is it entertaining? Is it educational? Is it insp- is it fulfilling? Is it, does it turn you on? Could it turn other people, put people on? What's happened? That's, that's... Now we're talking no filters. And so I've started to question myself. I'm going, "What, what's your... Let's ex- let's, let's think about do you, is there other avenues for you to live life instead of doing someone else's script? What's your script?" Now, it's led me to think about different ways of leadership. It's led me to, to write more. It's also led me to go, on the hard days, to give myself a little amnesty and go, "Dude, take a little wisdom from Bob Dylan." It ta- you're all, you're, you are what you create yourself to be.

    14. JS

      Mm.

    15. MM

      Every, y- maybe d- if you feel more alive acting in a show through a character, well, bravo. That's still you. Don't act like that's not you. You should get to your real self. I mean, you are... To be the creation, and it's okay if I'm gonna go play a part. We're all playing a part.

    16. JS

      Mm.

    17. MM

      Are we playing, uh, if we can get to a part that is essentially close to essentially who we are, bravo for us. If we can't, we're having trouble doing that, if we can play a part that we're good at and shows a piece, and, and translates to show a piece of humanity, turns other people in and us on, even though it may not be corely who we are, well, [laughs] bravo for getting away with that one too.

    18. JS

      Mm.

    19. MM

      You know? But play one at a time is another, is another little tip I have to remind myself. 'Cause the great performers, whether I think in life or in acting, you know, they, they, they can play any part. They can be any creation, but they're always one at a time.

    20. JS

      Mm.

    21. MM

      And that's where some patience has to come in. That's where a bit of that, hey, don't rush to accomplish. Just play one part at a time.

    22. JS

      Mm.

    23. MM

      But as life gets big, and you've got a career, and you've got a family, there's many parts to play.

    24. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    25. MM

      You know? Father, husband, performer, you know? Or, or writer, whatever those are. But as you know, with practice, those all, that, instead of feeling like five different hats you gotta wear one day, you go, "Oh, that's all part of the same story. That's all part of the same man I am."

    26. JS

      Mm-hmm. So the chapter would be called One, One at a Time?

    27. MM

      The chapter would be called, ah, I wish it was called... Sometimes I think it should be called One at a Time. The long, my long answer to what would the chapter be would be, uh, um-

    28. JS

      I loved your answer

    29. MM

      ... we've got a, um... I opened up eight lanes to about 12 lanes.

    30. JS

      Mm.

  5. 13:2116:25

    Why You’re Exactly Where You Need to Be

    1. JS

      And but think about that on an internal soul level-

    2. MM

      Yeah

    3. JS

      ... of the mindsets we wear and the behaviors we wear and-

    4. MM

      Yeah

    5. JS

      ... like taking a moment, as you said, to give yourself that amnesty to say-

    6. MM

      Well, yeah. And to, and to make sense of you with the default emotion when you look back and you're embarrassed of something you did that actually got you what you wanted.

    7. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    8. MM

      To go, "Pfft," you know?

    9. JS

      Yeah. [laughs]

    10. MM

      To go, instead of judging it, at least start off giggling at it. It helps with the amnesty.

    11. JS

      [laughs]

    12. MM

      It also helps change a gear and go, oh, the realization of, oh, I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have learned that lesson if I wouldn't have been such an egotistical prick at the time, because I wouldn't have had the confidence to put myself in the situation to get humbled.

    13. JS

      Yeah.

    14. MM

      You know what I mean?

    15. JS

      Yes.

    16. MM

      You, you can look at all the piles of S-H-I-T we step in, and they lead to, [laughs] you know, the clean, the clean water we get to drink from the, from the well down the line, or the truth we figure out. I mean, it's, it's, it's, you know I say that, uh, it's a mystery going forward, it's the science looking back.

    17. JS

      Mm. Mm.

    18. MM

      You know?

    19. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    20. MM

      'Cause ev- we can all connect the dots to exactly where we are right now, and there's a science to it. Even, and, and that science has to do with when we face planted and tripped ourselves and messed up, or went about it the wrong way but maybe got the outcome we wanted, or went about it the wrong way and didn't get the outcome we wanted. I think that has a lot to do with our... And I don't know, do you think this is a Western thing, our relationship with failure? We're embar- we, we, in some ways I wish we were more embarrassed.

    21. JS

      [laughs] Yeah.

    22. MM

      All right? But in other ways I'm like, we have to get a... With children, you know?

    23. JS

      Yes.

    24. MM

      It's like, they're afraid to fail, and it's like, no, no, no. I, if anything, if I look back, I always answer the question, what would you do different? I wish, I wish I would've taken more risk and failed more.

    25. JS

      Mm.

    26. MM

      And I'm still trying to challenge myself to that-

    27. JS

      Mm-hmm

    28. MM

      ... today, but we have this relationship with failure-

    29. JS

      Yeah

    30. MM

      ... it's like an embarrassing thing to do, instead of shaking it and just going, "No, failure will happen." And if it doesn't happen, you're probably not taking enough risk or you're not getting out of your comfort zone. So, no, failure is part of the successful path. It's necessary.

  6. 16:2520:39

    How Your View of Success Shapes Failure

    1. JS

      Eastern is inwards.

    2. MM

      Okay. Yeah.

    3. JS

      And so the inner journey, for example, the quest to understand outer space would not be as interesting as the inner sky.

    4. MM

      Heard.

    5. JS

      The inner sky would be more of a-

    6. MM

      Heard

    7. JS

      ... magnetic pull to understand.

    8. MM

      Heard.

    9. JS

      If that m- helps, makes sense.

    10. MM

      Yes, it does.

    11. JS

      Yeah, yeah.

    12. MM

      Yeah.

    13. JS

      Yeah. And so these little mindsets, I feel, it's, it's what you said earlier, you change your language about midlife crisis to midli- of- life opportunity.

    14. MM

      Yeah.

    15. JS

      That language shift i, is revolutionary for the mind.

    16. MM

      It's, it's wild, isn't it? The vernacular, the prescription's definition or just a word. I had the wo- I had, I've had the hardest time for 40 years dealing with the word humility. Come on. Gotta be humble, Matthew, gotta be humble. We gotta be more humble. My shoulders would start to cave.

    17. JS

      Mm.

    18. MM

      My head would start to go down. I was pas- I became passive. Would lose... I, I had the moment where it was my turn a- and I, and I didn't take the opportunity. I had a false sense of modesty, of, "No, no, no, you, you, you go." Or it's a, that, that person that's, that, that, that's at the, um, in front of you at the stop sign.

    19. JS

      [laughs]

    20. MM

      That says, "No, you can go," and now it's your turn, they go, "No, you can go." It's like, "No, it's your turn to go." [laughs]

    21. JS

      [laughs]

    22. MM

      It's like, don't sit there and keep telling every single... That's a false modesty.

    23. JS

      Yeah.

    24. MM

      It's like, there's very, [laughs] they went, now you can go. Don't let them all go through or I'm gonna start honking the horn, you know what I mean?

    25. JS

      Yeah.

    26. MM

      Until I heard, um, a definition that was, humility is admitting you have more to learn. And as soon as I heard that, I went, "Oh. Oh, I'm in. I purchase." I, my, now my, my chin's up, my heart's high, my shoulders are back, and I admit I've got a lot more to learn, but now I've got the confidence to move forward. And I didn't get that click. It was just a definitionVulnerability is another word that kind of has a mingling definition-

    27. JS

      Mm-hmm

    28. MM

      ... that some people are hard to take it. Eh. Or, you know, sentimentality.

    29. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    30. MM

      It's different between sentiment and sentimentality.

  7. 20:3923:15

    Humility Means Being Honest With Yourself

    1. MM

      love yourself. That's the self- That seems to me purely selfish. I believe, seems to me that real religion is extremely selfish. Living away now, if we believe that you will, whether it's karma-wise in life or whether it's life after this life, that you will be rewarded later.

    2. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. MM

      That projection, that delayed gratification, sacrifices, and consequences we make. Maybe it's one we make now to give our children a better life two decades from now. Isn't that the most selfish? Isn't that more selfish than doing only for I at the sake of my neighbor or my loved one's future? Seems to me that's-

    4. JS

      Yeah.

    5. MM

      And maybe I'm using the wrong, maybe I'm using the, the wrong word-

    6. JS

      [laughs]

    7. MM

      ... I'm told sometimes, but I'm sticking with it.

    8. JS

      Yeah.

    9. MM

      Um, yeah, but, you know, the, the, the, the certainty. I like to know. I wanna be in the know.

    10. JS

      Yeah.

    11. MM

      I also wanna damn well be in the know about what I don't know.

    12. JS

      Yeah. [laughs] Is that e- is that even possible?

    13. MM

      And that's, that, that's part of that humility.

    14. JS

      Yeah.

    15. MM

      Is what I mean, like, I, I, I mean, you know, they say don't take yourself serious. No, take yourself real seriously.

    16. JS

      Yeah.

    17. MM

      And also take sense of humor seriously.

    18. JS

      Yes. Yeah.

    19. MM

      And also take comedy very seriously.

    20. JS

      Yeah. Yeah.

    21. MM

      Take guffaws very seriously.

    22. JS

      Yeah.

    23. MM

      They happen.

    24. JS

      Yeah.

    25. MM

      You know?

    26. JS

      Yeah. I loved your... You just referenced it. You were talking about karma. I loved your redefinition of how karma works. So in the book, you write-

    27. MM

      Mm

    28. JS

      ... when you don't do good to others, it's guaranteed basically that they won't do good to you. But if you do good to others, that's-

    29. MM

      It's not a guarantee

    30. JS

      ... it's not a guarantee that they'll still-

  8. 23:1525:47

    The Power of Consequences

    1. MM

      still have the most to learn about as adults. What are the consequences? Can we believe more in the consequences of our choices today? Can we have more trust and belief in, you know, that what I... the choice I make today, if I make the better choice, it's going to reap rewards on others, including myself, down the line.

    2. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. MM

      But we don't like to think past now. If you're successful and you're fluent in life, you have the, the, the luxury of thinking, of, of long-term thinking.

    4. JS

      Yes.

    5. MM

      Some people in misery, which this would be fun to talk about. Some of the misery, they're in, "Delayed gratification, my ass. What you talking about? I'm trying to, I'm hoping, I'm trying to get something tonight. I hope I can wake up tomorrow morning and put some food on the table."

    6. JS

      Yeah.

    7. MM

      Is it a luxurious thing to talk about delayed gratification? Is it, is it a luxurious thing to talk about making sacrifices-

    8. JS

      Mm

    9. MM

      ... and doing what's well for yourself, but also well for the most amount of others? Is that a luxury-

    10. JS

      Mm

    11. MM

      ... to someone in misery? 'Cause they sure as hell have a hard time understanding it, and I'm with you going, "I understand."You want me to talk about what we can do peace in the world, and you're trying to pay your rent? You're going, [laughs] "I don't, I don't wanna hear about that."

    12. JS

      Mm.

    13. MM

      "I'm-- I've got a household here. I got two bedrooms. I got five kids. I just got fired, and you wanna talk to me about what the best idea would be for the most amount of people? Right here."

    14. JS

      Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

    15. MM

      Uh, you know what I mean?

    16. JS

      I, I don't... Yeah.

    17. MM

      I understand that.

    18. JS

      Yes, absolutely.

    19. MM

      Um-

    20. JS

      I fully agree. And then what do you do about that then? So you-

    21. MM

      Yeah

    22. JS

      ... understand it, but ...

    23. MM

      Well, I tssh, I try to be humble with it and go, "You can't just, you know, speak trying," I come across as speaking from on high.

    24. JS

      Mm.

    25. MM

      I think, you know, you talk about someone in, in a position who's lost or in pain. Again, you talk to them about projection and projecting further in life. They're like, "Psh, what are you talking about?"

    26. JS

      Mm.

    27. MM

      But to those people, and when I myself have been there and trying to ... and confused and frustrated and don't have the luxury or the bandwidth to think that far ahead-

    28. JS

      Mm

    29. MM

      ... and try to go, "What? All right, so what's the next best,

  9. 25:4730:49

    You Just Need to Take One Step at a Time

    1. MM

      right decision? What's..." And you don't know what that is.

    2. JS

      Yeah.

    3. MM

      "Well, I don't know. That's the, one of the problems." All right, what are you, what are you most faithful to? Do that one. Just one. Let's just go one in a row.

    4. JS

      Yeah, yeah.

    5. MM

      We ain't thinking about and if, then. No, just, just do one in a row. [laughs] You know what I mean?

    6. JS

      Yeah, yeah.

    7. MM

      And just start with one and, and, and, and just stop there. I remember being down in, uh, after Katrina, um, we were in Gulf, in, in Mississippi. And, um, we were on these property where all these houses were wiped out, and we were in this one place, and there was this lady's house, was just a slate of cement with some rubbish and stuff. It had been completely knocked down. And she came back, and she was about 80 years old, and she was still in her nightgown, and she'd, she saw it for the first time, and she was just like, [gasps] "Oh." And we asked her, "What are you looking for?" And she goes, "Well, I, I just wanna ho- find a picture, maybe in a scrapbook, so my grandchildren can say I don't live here, but that's, that will, that will help me." And, and then I was sitting there talking to her, and I was like, "What are you feeling right now?" She goes, "I just, I just ... Can you tell me where to put my right foot if I take a step?"

    8. JS

      Yeah.

    9. MM

      "I just need-

    10. JS

      Yeah

    11. MM

      ... is it solid? Is it gonna cave? Am I gonna trip? Can you just tell me? I don't even wanna look right now. We... Can I trust you to tell me that this, if I step this way, one step, my foot will be solid and flat-

    12. JS

      Yeah

    13. MM

      ... and I won't slip, and it won't be danger. I won't step on a piece of glass. I'm not, it's not gonna..." And that's just wanted one step. That's a person in misery going, "Just show me one solid step. I don't wanna know what's going on. No, I don't... Not, not what's happening in an hour, not what's happening in 30 minutes. Just give me one solid step."

    14. JS

      Yeah.

    15. MM

      That seems to be a, a place to start for someone in misery-

    16. JS

      Yeah

    17. MM

      ... that's, uh, doesn't have the ability to project or is so confused, and you feel you, you... it, it's got too much coming down on you, too much pain to think down the, down the line. And then if you do that once, then you reset, and you bring up the same question. All right, what's the next one step?

    18. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    19. MM

      If one in a row over and over-

    20. JS

      Mm-hmm

    21. MM

      ... instead of, oh, I'm gonna put a string together. No. Do one in a row over and over and look up, and maybe you can go, "Look at that."

    22. JS

      Yeah.

    23. MM

      10 in a row.

    24. JS

      [laughs]

    25. MM

      We got somewhere.

    26. JS

      Yeah.

    27. MM

      But that's easier said than done, you know?

    28. JS

      No, I, I-

    29. MM

      What do you think?

    30. JS

      I... No, I, I love that. I, I think you hit the nail on the head. It's, it's how we teach children to take one step at a time. It's how we build new habits as people. We do one day at a time.

  10. 30:4934:37

    Staying Grounded in Faith Through Real Life Experiences

    1. JS

      God's number one instruction is, "Think of me and fight."

    2. MM

      Yeah.

    3. JS

      And so, yeah, it's like, "Think of me and fight."

    4. MM

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    5. JS

      So it's like, it's like, "I want you to think of me-

    6. MM

      Yeah

    7. JS

      ... and then do your duty-

    8. MM

      Yeah

    9. JS

      ... and take that step."

    10. MM

      Right.

    11. JS

      And so, you know, talking about-

    12. MM

      Right

    13. JS

      ... what you're saying, it's like this paradox where-

    14. MM

      Yeah

    15. JS

      ... we think we have to choose, but actually-

    16. MM

      Yeah

    17. JS

      ... the instruction in and-

    18. MM

      Yeah

    19. JS

      ... of itself, he repeats that twice, God repeats that twice in the text. It's like, "Think of me and fight."

    20. MM

      Yeah.

    21. JS

      So think of me and do your duty.

    22. MM

      Yeah.

    23. JS

      Think of me and take the step.

    24. MM

      Yeah. Like it.

    25. JS

      Be- because if you think of me and take the step-

    26. MM

      Yeah

    27. JS

      ... you'll have faith and trust, but you'll also feel-

    28. MM

      Yeah

    29. JS

      ... your action and the confidence.

    30. MM

      Yeah.

  11. 34:3745:29

    Ways to Strengthen Your Spiritual Practice

    1. JS

      back because at home you have to be dad or mom and-

    2. MM

      It was a physical place

    3. JS

      ... it was a physical place-

    4. MM

      Yeah

    5. JS

      ... that gave you space to ask different questions because at work you're just asking, "How do I make more money?"

    6. MM

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    7. JS

      At home you're asking, "How do I be a better mom or dad?"

    8. MM

      Yeah.

    9. JS

      But then what about how do I do all the other th- Where's the space-

    10. MM

      Yeah, yeah

    11. JS

      ... for that question?

    12. MM

      So in this age where most people, less, they're going to church less, they're going to the temples less-

    13. JS

      Mm

    14. MM

      ... is it possible, do you think, or, or, or how can we improve if you do think it's possible, without the ritual of that third space? Because I understand the concept, man. When I'm, when I feel most spiritually strong, I'm pr- all day is a prayer.

    15. JS

      Yes, yes, for sure, yeah.

    16. MM

      My every interaction-

    17. JS

      Yes

    18. MM

      ... is a give and take and a rhythm of, oh, I didn't have to close my eyes. Now, but that Sunday ritual where I did need to get my heart above my head in humility and bow in humility, um, I saw, I got objective-

    19. JS

      Mm-hmm

    20. MM

      ... and saw myself from an eye in the sky and was like, "Oh, are you doing... You need, do you, you're not, you're not quite doing... Or you could do this thing that you think you're doing a little more truly."

    21. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    22. MM

      You could have been more benevolent in that. Oh, that was ... But I, I needed that but, but then a lot of times, I mean, without the ritual, and so many people now go, "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual."

    23. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    24. MM

      "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual." I think there's people that are a lot more religious than they think they are.

    25. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    26. MM

      I think they're, a lot of that is that term that's coming from what mankind has done with religion, which, uh, in the Bible, Jesus fought against, was like, "Ah, that's not what I'm talking about, guys. [laughs] This is not, it's not, it's not, it's not, religion isn't, isn't a capitalist thing. It's not a materialist." But what we've done with it that I think a lot of people are fighting against.

    27. JS

      Absolutely.

    28. MM

      But religion-

    29. JS

      Which in fairness, yeah

    30. MM

      ... the word-Means from re-ligare, the Latin root. Ligare means to bind together, and re means again. So a lot of people that I hear saying, "I'm spiritual and I'm for unity," I'm like going, [claps] "That's religion!"

  12. 45:2950:45

    What is Truly Fascinating About Being Human?

    1. MM

      not, I ain't budging. Nuh-uh. You know what I mean? Um, and then on the flip side of that somewhat is how we seem to find, in this pursuit of the ideal, we seem to sh- almost say, well, that is our home. That is who we are. And then go, okay, so therefore ... And then we d- we sh- our practice is not as evolved as we think it is, but we keep saying ... And, and, and I love the, we can g- tap into the 11th percent of our mind, which we don't tap into. We can be greater. We can transcend. But practically every day, I think there's some great wisdom in going, "We're not as evolved as we think we are. Let's quit acting like we are." I love the pursuit. It's like rehabilitation and justice. I'm for rehabilitation, man. I'm, I, I mean, I, I love the New Testament. You know what I mean? At the same time, we are repeat offending son of a guns over and over and over. [laughs] And if I've done you wrong, and you've allowed me to come to you and ask for forgiveness, the first order on the docket should be me ... If you choose to forgive me, the first order on the docket should be me, from now on, doing anything I can to not have to come apologize to you again. It's not just that you forgave and gave me the chance to be forgiven. I got some sweat equity on my side to quit doing the actions that cause me to have you forgive me, to have me apologize again.

    2. JS

      [laughs]

    3. MM

      And we don't forget ... We seem to not forget that side. I love kumbaya. This is the ideal place we can go. But I feel like we relax and kind of almost take for granted, thinking we're that evolved, and no, we're not. That's the constant pursuit. We ain't there. So let's deal with the hard math right here. And one thing we can depend on people being is people. Nothing we do is unbelievable. We do stupid shit all the time. We break our own noses 'cause we tripped ourself running downhill.

    4. JS

      Mm.

    5. MM

      We s- steal. We're jealous. We covet. We talk blue and vote red. We talk New Testament and act old. We're entrenched in some ideas. Now, go back to that ear- the first half of, of what surprised me about people, um, when I was talking about the adaptive ... Flexibility of adaptation. I remember, I w- it was probably 12 years ago, I was in Alabama. I was doing research for a film down there, uh, um, Free State of Jones. And in Mobile, Alabama, on the docket that night, the next morning, the vote had gone through about whether Alabama was gonna allow gay marriage. And I'm sitting, I'm in Alabama, and I was like, "I don't think that's gonna pass." Deep South Alabama. I mean, it sounds like that's a very progressive idea to them. I wasn't judging it. I'm just saying as an anthropologist and sociologist, I'm like, "Oh." The next morning it passed, 53% to 47%. I was like, wow. I talked to my friends, a lot of them on the left, were abhorred-I can't believe that. Those bigots, only 53%. And I was like, only 53? I thought it was gonna be 80/20 the other way. That was a massive amount... Me talking about meeting people where they are.

    6. JS

      Yes, yes, yes.

    7. MM

      It was a massive flexibility that surprised me, and that was just 12 years ago. So we have to understand where people have come from. I write about it in the book about I wish more crimes were from, uh, ignorance.

    8. JS

      Mm.

    9. MM

      And what I mean by that is, if I know the right thing to do, and I know the wrong thing to do, and I still do the wrong crime, shame on me. I knew better. But there's certain crimes we commit daily that someone just goes, "I, I didn't know."

    10. JS

      Yeah.

    11. MM

      Okay. Now let's talk about some real rehab, 'cause you didn't make the wrong choice. You just didn't know.

    12. JS

      Yeah.

    13. MM

      Now talk about some amnesty. Yeah. I've got to meet you in a different place, and we have to deal with solving the problem differently than I do with the guy that knew better and did it anyway.

    14. JS

      Mm. Yeah. Do we expect too much from people?

    15. MM

      Practically speaking, [laughs] yes. Yes. I mean, we underwhelm and underserve and undershow a lot, but we all have different expectations of ourselves and, and, and of others. I mean, so again, part of that, hey, just expect it. That old expect the worst, prepare for the best. I don't like that. I like actually expect the absolute best, and when it comes in under that, you know, shoot for the A, make a C is better than shoot for C, make an F. When you... How quickly when you deal with reality and go, "Okay, well, that's a hell of a lot better outcome, and I got more out of you, and you got more out of me than we would've if we'd have come in going like, 'Let's just make a C.'"

  13. 50:4558:57

    Are We Expecting Too Much From Others?

    1. JS

      Mm. [laughs]

    2. MM

      You know what I mean? We may be... You know what I mean?

    3. JS

      Yeah.

    4. MM

      We, we went for the perfection, and we came in under it, but it was still pretty doggone good, well done. That's where I'm-- I call it an, an overshow theory.

    5. JS

      How do you deal with when someone disappoints you based on your expectation?

    6. MM

      Um, I'm quicker to say, "Yep, that was reality. That's what they're able to do," whether it's forgiveness or amnesty, whatever you wanna call it, with so- others than I am for myself.

    7. JS

      Explain.

    8. MM

      I expect perfection from myself a lot, and I don't reach it, and I know I can, or I believe I can. That's a better word. I believe I can, and I don't wanna quit believing I can. That's sort of where I find myself in approaching life. Keep going for perfection. Keep finding that reality comes in under that, and you will have climbed more stairs, if we're gonna have a vertical, by the end. You will have had more quality. Your roots will have been deeper and wider inside and out, vertically and to the south, than if you didn't chase that perfection. The challenge for me is when reality comes in and it's served and the bell's rung and there's no more time to take the test, when you see that you didn't make 100 and you made an 88, how quickly can you go, instead of going, "Oh, fu- dude," or how quickly can you go, "All right. 88."

    9. JS

      [laughs]

    10. MM

      "Not bad."

    11. JS

      Yeah.

    12. MM

      So again, that pursuit of an ideal-

    13. JS

      Mm-hmm

    14. MM

      ... plus the practical. What's the next-

    15. JS

      Yeah, yeah

    16. MM

      ... ste- solid step?

    17. JS

      Yeah.

    18. MM

      And I've, I work to become, uh, I work to try and remain as much as I can to feel satisfaction in that reality, but that's the hard part is how quickly can you go from... Like, I've never-- I say this all the time, and I don't like it to be misconstrued. I've never made a film that lived up to my expectations.

    19. JS

      Wow.

    20. MM

      I've never given a performance that lived up to my expectations. I've done films that I think, "It's a lot better than I could've done." And I'm not saying, "Oh, I should've direct..." I'm saying, "Oh, that was a... It's awesome. It's a really great piece of art." Not just, not transcendent. It didn't change the, the world or tap into a piece of humanity that enlightened myself and everyone else on a unanimous level.

    21. JS

      Mm.

    22. MM

      That's what I'm going for. But I had never done it. So why, and again, I've worked and with people who have made films I think are, are outstanding and better than they would've been if I would've been the director, for sure. But that's part of, I think, maybe why when I do do good work or make good creations or good art, I think that was part of it, that I was going for-

    23. JS

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

    24. MM

      ... ding, the infinite pure spot in space-

    25. JS

      Yeah

    26. MM

      ... that was immaculate.

    27. JS

      Yeah.

    28. MM

      Believing I could achieve perfection, but knowing I couldn't.

    29. JS

      Mm.

    30. MM

      But I still like to believe.

  14. 58:571:01:56

    Where Do You Seek Validation?

    1. MM

      I seek their validation, and that's a conduit through, a practical conduit in my imagination because I don't have a picture in my mind of God. Um, and I don't, I, I don't, I don't think we can or should. I think that minimalizes, um... You know, we have pictures of, of, of physical beings that have walked the earth that we can call prophets and stuff, but of God, I don't have a picture. I don't think it's a, an it. I don't think it's a mister or missus or anything like that. Um, so... And then, I mean, look, inherently, that all brings me back to seeking my own-

    2. JS

      Mm-hmm

    3. MM

      ... my own validation. Um, you know, I try to measure how I counsel and referee myself off of some of the people I just brought up to you.

    4. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. MM

      So that's where I pretty well stick. That's where I pretty... I d- I don't, I don't really look outside that m- much further outside my circumference.

    6. JS

      Mm.

    7. MM

      Just because I can't... It's just too fickle.

    8. JS

      Yeah, yeah.

    9. MM

      It's too... I can't really tr- I don't have a trust. Again, that goes to that Sammy Davis Jr. line. If you look around and go, "Does everyone approve?"

    10. JS

      Yeah.

    11. MM

      Uh, it's gonna be, it's gonna, gonna be lonely and hard-

    12. JS

      Yeah

    13. MM

      ... and not necessarily the best for you. You know what I mean? And I know I've pulled some things off my life where I, you know, people thought I changed and made a, "Wow, what a recreation." I'm like, "I'm doing the same thing. You just put it in bold print now."

    14. JS

      Yeah. [laughs]

    15. MM

      "I, I was doing the same thing 15 years ago."

    16. JS

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    17. MM

      You know what I mean? Sometimes we change by staying the same.

    18. JS

      Yeah.

    19. MM

      And then other times, again, as we talked about in the beginning of the conversation, you give yourself time to daydream, you pick out a new tact about how to maybe go about something, a new way of uncovering something, a new way of solving something, a new way of finding satisfaction in a situation, a new way of dealing with a crisis, a new way of, um, dealing with success. You know? Looking at it from a different point of view just to have another, it's almost ammo, ammo, arrow in the quiver.And, uh, in this hunt, uh, is life

    20. JS

      Yeah. H- how does someone like you who built their career on control grasp the concept of trust?

    21. MM

      I'm a trust first guy. I come here today, whether we had never talked before. I have, I have nothing in my head going into anyone's situation. Wonder if they're trying to get me? Ooh, is he gonna ask a tricky question? Oh, is he trying to play a g- I don't, uh-uh. Because that'll hang me up.

    22. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    23. MM

      I won't be able to freely think and go. Now, at the same time, have I been doing this long enough where before I'm about to say something or as I'm saying it, I can go, "Oh, if you don't finish this sentence right, that's gonna be a headline in a rag bag" or something. You know what I mean? I, I... You know what I mean? "Oh, that's not gonna be the headline you want."

    24. JS

      Yes, it's-

    25. MM

      I'm conscious enough of that, but I'm a trust first guy, and I've been, and I've been burned.

  15. 1:01:561:08:28

    Learning to Trust Without Losing Control

    1. MM

      And I'm like, I'll, I'll make that bet again. Because I know that I put ... That, that if I put more trust on Howdy, it's gonna do something to you where maybe you aren't the most trustworthy. I've seen people become more trustworthy.

    2. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. MM

      I've seen people give more because they go, "Oh, this guy's given me a massive amount of trust."

    4. JS

      Yeah, yeah.

    5. MM

      "He just empowered me, dude."

    6. JS

      Yeah, yeah.

    7. MM

      "He just gave me ... He saw a dignity in me that I didn't see."

    8. JS

      Yeah.

    9. MM

      "He's given me a license, a privilege, some ch, ch, chutzpah" to go, "Oh, okay." And I believe in that, and I, I see that in people, and it's a bit of that, you know, may what we give from our soul get a like response from others. I believe in that re- re- reciprocity. So I'm a trust first guy. I don't ... The residuals for going through life without trust, oh, shit.

    10. JS

      [laughs]

    11. MM

      That sucks.

    12. JS

      Yeah.

    13. MM

      I mean, yeah, I also, you know, I trust myself more now than maybe I used to, and that thing, that's just come from growth and evolution and, and, and, you know. I used to always be a guy who ... And I'm still a guy who ... I don't like drawers. I like my stuff laid out.

    14. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    15. MM

      I wanna see it 'cause if it's in a drawer, I'll forget I even needed it.

    16. JS

      [laughs]

    17. MM

      I wanna see it. I was always a guy who's like, "If I'm gonna come in this room, I'll make sure that my keys to the, keys to my, the, the door in the other room on the kitchen table, leave that door cracked." I'm not ... I have more confidence now to go, "You can shut the door. I know where I left the keys. I don't have to look over my shoulder again."

    18. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    19. MM

      I had this spiritually when I went into True Detective. I was in a really strong spiritual place, and that character, my relationship with God at that time was really strong. That character went into some philosophical nihilism and things that are, like, away from [laughs] faith. I was able to go, "I'm locking in and not looking back for five months."

    20. JS

      Wow. Wow.

    21. MM

      "And I don't need to look over my shoulder 'cause I know when I come out of this, my relationship's good back there."

    22. JS

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    23. MM

      "I don't need to peek over my shoulder to make sure. I don't have a cr- I tr- I tr- I have the trust." Earlier, and many other times in my life, I wouldn't have the trust to go that far 'cause I'm like, "Hang on. Is this okay? Am I about to get struck by lightning here? Is this blasphemous?" You know what I mean?

    24. JS

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    25. MM

      You know, "Are we good?" You know?

    26. JS

      Yeah.

    27. MM

      "Okay, I n- I'm just acting." You, you know what I mean? So I, I had a great amount of trust. I'm strong spiritually then to go, and when I'm, feel stronger spiritually is that, you know, the foundation's strong. You, we can jump higher. We can go further. We can not look over our back as much and trust any, you know ... And when we travel and trust in relationships and, and away from the kids. I'm away from the kids right now. It's been a week. Okay. But we check in. Yeah, does FaceTime help with trust? Yeah, because you get to ... There's more ... There's a phone call. But the idea of, the very simple, natural ideas of going, hey, it's 10:00. I'm, we're on the phone. I'm on one side of the world. You're on the other. But we're both under the same moon. We're both under the same sun. Sun you're under right now just hadn't got to me yet, but it'll be the same one. And the moon that I'm under right now just hadn't got to you, but it's, it's coming. There's a, again, that time.

    28. JS

      Yes.

    29. MM

      Now we're getting into the cyclical time you talk about-

    30. JS

      Mm-hmm

  16. 1:08:281:13:24

    When Everything Matters, Nothing Does

    1. MM

      Well, so it, I don't matter." No. What ... Can that grain of sand in the palm make you go, "Oh, no, I matter more than I thought"?

    2. JS

      Yeah. And, and it's both.

    3. MM

      Yeah.

    4. JS

      And it's both. And it's-

    5. MM

      Yeah.

    6. JS

      Yeah, I remember we were on a beach in South India. I was with my, my monk teacher, and we were on a walk, and it was a bunch of young monks with my teacher. And it's a big fishing town. So South India's very known for being a fishing community, and there'd be loads of fish nets with, full of fishes. And then there'd be the few that had fallen out on the, on the beach as we were walking. And whenever we'd walk past one, my teacher would pick it up and put it back in the water. It was still, you know, uh, tossing up and down on the, on the beach. And we were just looking at the whole beach in front of us, and there were, like, hundreds, maybe, I don't know, maybe thousands of fish that had fallen out of the nets that won't go to be cooked in a restaurant but won't make it back to the ocean-

    7. MM

      Yeah

    8. JS

      ... and probably die in between. And he was just, every time we'd walk past, he'd pick one, and we'd be like ... We said to him, we were like, "Uh, we're not gonna be here all day, and there's no chance we're gonna get to all of these." And, and he was like, "Yeah, but to that one fish, that's their whole life."

    9. MM

      Ah.

    10. JS

      Like, you know, so to you it's like we're not gonna get to 400.

    11. MM

      Yeah. Yeah.

    12. JS

      Because you ... It's, and so it's both. It's like-

    13. MM

      Yeah

    14. JS

      ... our, our work is insignificant.

    15. MM

      Right.

    16. JS

      But it's significant.

    17. MM

      And, and, and that goes back to that-

    18. JS

      Yeah

    19. MM

      ... that, that, that we can get paralyzed, you know, the, uh, the think globally, act locally is another term of-

    20. JS

      Yes. Yes, yes

    21. MM

      ... you know what I mean? When you get paralyzed or thinking, "But I can't. It's too much to censor 'em out."

    22. JS

      Yeah.

    23. MM

      No, just do the, do one in a row.

    24. JS

      Yeah, one at a time. One step.

    25. MM

      Just one, one at a time.

    26. JS

      Yeah.

    27. MM

      And then, you know, the sun sets, and you had to be home by dark, and there's still some fishes flipping. Well, get on home. And you didn't get them all, but you got ... You were in the asset section. Sometimes that, I think, is, is how I deal with maybe letting myself off, trying to figure out a proper balance of forgiveness and saying, "No, the buck stops here."

    28. JS

      Mm.

    29. MM

      You know? Something, I'm like, "Man, I'm not, I don't feel like I'm, this is magic," or, "This is absolutely beautiful," or, "This is absolutely true," I'll go, "Okay. Not everything in life's gonna be that. But are we in the asset section? Are we in the black, so to speak? Is, is, is the thing you're doing, uh, uh, uh, on, on a proton?" [laughs]

    30. JS

      [laughs]

  17. 1:13:241:24:14

    A More Realistic Way to Think About Love

    1. MM

      ... We're fine. I take it for granted, oh, we got, you know, yeah, we got the kids, the family, it's all great. To take that for granted sometimes and not do the maintenance, which shouldn't feel like work, but is ... It's, it's, it's conscious. It's, it's, it can take work. It can be a thought and a choice you make to go, that little thing. I'm making my tea. She's not up. I really wanna get to that puzzle for those eight pieces. Ah. I'm gonna make her one, put it in a Yeti, and have it covered so when she gets up, it's ready. A little ps- a little thoughtful, a little thoughtful thing like that. Was that work? No. Is that delayed gratification for the relationship? Yes. [laughs] You know? That's gonna, you know, that, that, that, that, that'd be a nice thing to do for them.

    2. JS

      Mm.

    3. MM

      If I don't do it, it's not gonna be missed. As a, as a small example.

    4. JS

      Yeah.

    5. MM

      I think another one with love, and you and I touched on it I think before cameras were recording, is the idea that you find the one, and that's the one, and, and, and, and, and wow. W- I, I make ... The male makes them Wonder Woman, and they think we're Superman. Oh, shit. Don't do that to me. And don't let me do that to you. I can't live up to that.

    6. JS

      Mm.

    7. MM

      You can't live up to that. Back to unanimous and seeking perfection, that's a tough nut to handle when you're like, project that on someone that's unfair to project onto them, and they project it on you, and neither one of you can live up to it. It's the idea of the ... And I, and, and, and, and this is not a popular statement [laughs] with my wife.

    8. JS

      [laughs]

    9. MM

      But I think it's, uh, for me, it's true, and I hope maybe, maybe I'm too practical about love. Maybe I'm not romantic enough about it. But I don't see how the honeymoon period lasts forever. I just ... The honeymoon is all on the hope, the possi- We don't know each other as well as we're gonna know each other. It's before we get married and we make the consecration and the covenant of marriage. And now we're getting into some real stuff, and we got real pains and real pleasures and real responsibilities and real fatigue, and real wins together. And we're building, we've expanded, and we've got a family, and oh man, we're bonfi- But that's harder, and it's not ... Honeymoon's only in the, the, the perfection stage. It's only in the up in the air. Wow, the, the, the, the, the youth of it, the beginning, the springtime, the fresh bud. And I love it, but it's, if you try to hold on to that 100 watt bulb to be the light all the time, you're Wonder Woman, I'm Superman. It, it seems to me humanly impractical to live up to it and unfair to each other.

    10. JS

      Mm.

    11. MM

      There's a preacher down in San Diego, my buddy Mark Norby turned me on to. I'm forgetting his name. But he talks about, "No, no, no. Love's more like a, it's a 30 watt bulb. Dim the light a little bit. It'll last longer. It'll illuminate longer. Not as bright, but it'll last longer, and it's more realistic-

    12. JS

      Mm

    13. MM

      ... for you and her. It's more human, and it's still lovely." It's always stuck with me as a-

    14. JS

      Mm

    15. MM

      ... as a, as a-

    16. JS

      I've never heard that. Yeah

    17. MM

      ... thing. Yeah. You know?

    18. JS

      It is true. W- which honeymoon period lasts as it is, and things can go deeper and be more powerful and be more profound, but not be the same in that if you just dated someone new for three to six months every year, you'd experience the honeymoon period every year-

    19. MM

      You'd, you'd-

    20. JS

      ... for the rest of your life

    21. MM

      ... experience the honeymoon.

    22. JS

      Yeah. You'd just keep doing-

    23. MM

      Peter Pan the honeymoon-

    24. JS

      Yeah. It keeps ... Yeah, exactly. Yeah

    25. MM

      ... and it's fresh and it's transient.

    26. JS

      Yeah.

    27. MM

      It was all brand new, but it didn't have all four seasons.

    28. JS

      Yeah.

    29. MM

      You didn't get into act two-

    30. JS

      Yeah

  18. 1:24:141:27:49

    Understanding Both Sides of Consequence

    1. MM

      we, yeah, what do we notice? What are we aware of? What do we give credit to? I think that's part of the athleticism of life, because that doesn't mean I'm not skeptical.

    2. JS

      Correct.

    3. MM

      It does mean I'm not cynical. It doesn't mean I'm not clever and wise and letting my home be just pillaged and, no, no, no. I got a lot to protect, and I protect it. It doesn't mean I'm foolish with myself or with my things and my life and the family and things I've built. But yeah, what do I, what do, what do, what do we notice? What do we give credit to? And go, "Oh, let's tend that garden. Let's multiply that. Let's get some compound interest on that ROI. Let's make that epidemic." Not the disease, not the wreck, not the harm. I wanna... I talk about it in Poems & Prayers. Make the positives plural.

    4. JS

      [laughs] Yeah.

    5. MM

      And the negative singular.

    6. JS

      Yes. Yes.

    7. MM

      And don't talk about the negatives-

    8. JS

      Amen, yeah

    9. MM

      ... in the present tense.If they happened, talk about them in the past tense. You stop their path to prophecy. That's the noticing thing, and that doesn't mean don't, "Oh, no, I don't see the negative. No, no, no, that's childhood. Hey, Hallmark card. Dream it. You can do it. Positive thinking."

    10. JS

      Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

    11. MM

      You know what I'm talking about. Uh-uh. Yeah, see how far that gets you. [chuckles] You know what I mean? You'll be done unto and the... You know? So we go from innocence to naivete to skepticism, and then if we can hold off there from going off the ledge into that fourth one, which is a disease, cynicism.

    12. JS

      Mm.

    13. MM

      I'm all for skepticism and noticing the negative, seeing the harm, noticing the disease, but sure like to spend time and notice more and compound the interest on the prevention of those cures or the multiplied factor of the good things that are conspiring to work for us and are just like, "There we go."

    14. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    15. MM

      "That works, not only for me, for you, too."

    16. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    17. MM

      Make those epidemic. Again, try-

    18. JS

      Yeah

    19. MM

      ... I love flip, flip-

    20. JS

      Yeah

    21. MM

      ... flip the word. Epidemic's always used as just something like, "Oh, no."

    22. JS

      Yeah, yeah.

    23. MM

      Just like consequence.

    24. JS

      [laughs]

    25. MM

      We all go con- oh, j- not on, not the consequence. Like, no, c- get consequences with everything.

    26. JS

      [laughs]

    27. MM

      And the positive side, the pleasure side of consequence is just as valuable as the negative. You gotta-

    28. JS

      Yeah

    29. MM

      ... you know?

    30. JS

      Epidemic, selfish, consequence.

  19. 1:27:491:34:28

    Matthew on Final Five

    1. MM

      we're the father. No, you're not. You may be the, the daddy papa, but it takes time to be a father, to be there for your children, to balance sharing with them what you already know so they can learn a little quicker, and hold them back and letting them fall from that tree limb and bruise their arm on their own because that's how they'll remember it. 'Cause even though you knew, sometimes there's certain heights, I call it, like tree limbs. There's certain... Kids go out on limbs, and if we rush every limb they go out on, I mean, they're on the limb, and they're, they're, they're five years old, and it's, it's five feet above this soft St. Augustine grass. If we rush over there and go, "Get down, get down, get down," they... No, no, no. You're gonna sh- you're gonna stunt their growth, and they're, they have fear of heights. Kids don't, aren't fear, aren't scared of heights until they di- until they fall. All right? Let them go out there. That's a safe fall. May get a bruise. Now, there's certain ones if they're 60 feet up [laughs] and it's a concrete, you might wanna go, "Hey, bud. I was thinking, come on, just take your time and come on over to the trunk and shimmy on that." Maybe get a help and get them down from that. But certain limbs, let them get on the end of it till let them, let them fall. Let them, let them get bruised. Let them... They'll remember that from experience. And so, yeah.

    2. JS

      I like it. Uh, question number two, what does it mean to be a real man?

    3. MM

      To be a real man? Well, you know, staying on the fatherhood thing, and this is not just the, the only definition, but I'll piggyback off the last question. The only thing I ever knew in life I wanted to be was a father, and it is because m- I remember when I was eight years old, my dad was a big "Yes, sir," and "No, sir," man. So he would introduce me to his friends, right? And I would always, as a eight-year-old, looking up from four, five, six, seven, eight years old, shake their hand. "Yes, sir. Nice to meet you, sir. Nice to meet you." And what hit me at eight years old was that all of those men whose hands I'd shaken to call them sir, they were dads. They were fathers. And in my eight-year-old mind, I went, "Oh, that's how you make it. That's success. Become a father. That's how you become a man. That's how you become a king." So that's not answer across the board, but that's gonna be my answer.

    4. JS

      Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

    5. MM

      I think.

    6. JS

      I love that. Uh, and I, I'll only do three because of time. Um, last one, what does it mean to be a good friend?

    7. MM

      Hmm. Yeah. A good friend reminds their friend of the, the best in themselves, the truth in themselves, whether it's there to say, [clicks tongue] "Yeah, just like that," when they are the most themselves, or whether it's there to go, "Hey, you know, you got this other way when you... in the situation, you handled it like this, and it was so pure, man, and it, it kinda didn't go that way this time." Ah. So it's saying hard things and helping them kinda renegotiate or showing to them objectively, "Hey, I see who you are. You've shown me who you are, and then when you're you, I'm over here going-And, uh, I take great pleasure in seeing you succeed without me.

    8. JS

      Wow. Wow, that's powerful.

    9. MM

      A good friend really takes honest and earnest pleasure in seeing their friends succeed w- with- without them.

    10. JS

      Mm.

    11. MM

      And...

    12. JS

      We, to end, we got a little note from a good friend of yours-

    13. MM

      Oh

    14. JS

      ... uh, who sent it in, and I think it'd be better if you read it out loud than me because it's for you. And so I'm gonna hand it to you, and you can, uh, read it out loud for us.

    15. MM

      Oh, what have we got here? I marvel at how you move through this world. Amazing actor, bestselling author, innovative entrepreneur, first-rate father, husband, and son, but more than anything, a brilliant philosopher. And it is that philosophy that pervades everything you do, one that intertwines curiosity with poetry. From the time I met you nearly 30 years ago, I knew you were my brother, and you continue to inspire me to this day. Love you, buddy. Wood. Ah. [laughs] P.S. Miss our cuddle time, me and Camilla, that is.

    16. JS

      [laughs]

    17. MM

      Perfect.

    18. JS

      Yeah.

    19. MM

      Ah, thank you, buddy.

    20. JS

      Uh, thank you.

    21. MM

      He is a great friend. He is a great friend. Boy, he is a good friend to me. I love the way that he loves-

    22. JS

      Mm

    23. MM

      ... me.

    24. JS

      Mm.

    25. MM

      It's really, really beautiful to receive.

    26. JS

      Well, Matthew, thank you for your time, your energy. Uh, whether I'm reading your books, whether I'm in your presence, or whether I'm listening to you, as I said to you before the first time I interviewed you, I listened to your acceptance speech from the Oscars every day for 30 days once upon a time in my life.

    27. MM

      Oh.

    28. JS

      And there're only two speeches I've done that with. One is Steve Jobs's commencement speech at Stanford, and one is your acceptance speech.

    29. MM

      Oh.

    30. JS

      I listened to it every day for 30 days, and it, it intern- I find when you do that, it internalizes-

Episode duration: 1:34:28

Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript

Transcript of episode i0IBy1XWDKA

Get more out of YouTube videos.

High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.

Add to Chrome