The #1 Dating Rule That Will Change Your Life (You’ll Never Be Confused Again!)

1. 0:00 – 0:50

   Intro

   1. JSJay Shetty0:00

      [dramatic music] I think the challenge today is, or at least what I feel people struggling with is, almost like the old challenge of sitting there with a flower and going, "They love me, they love me not. They love me, they love me not." And I don't know when that was invented, but I feel like we're ruminating, we're overthinking, we're procrastinating.

2. 0:50 – 2:56

   How to Tell If Someone Is Truly Interested

   1. JSJay Shetty0:50

      How do you know if someone's actually into you?

   2. SZSabrina Zohar0:53

      It's so funny. Thank you for reminding me about the flower, 'cause as you said, I was like, "Oh, my childhood."

   3. JSJay Shetty0:58

      [laughs]

   4. SZSabrina Zohar0:58

      I think what we're really looking for, for me, I'm a big on effort equals interest. And I think we're getting in a time where that effort is starting to get muddied, right? We're looking at it as are they texting me every day? Are they contacting me? And we're looking at these dopamine hits as opposed to actually connecting with people. And so I think for me, are you feeling safe, seen, and secure with this person? Now, that might not happen after one date, but is this somebody that is reciprocal? Are they intentional? Are they consistent? Are they showing up for you? And that doesn't just mean that they don't text you for a day, but is this person making plans? Are they actually progressing the relationship? And I think for me, you know, I'll be honest, like, I have ADHD, so my cadence, my speech, I'm a totally different w- the way that my brain works, so I might show up differently and be super keen on somebody, whereas my partner is super avoidant, and he's not into texting, and his way of showing up is, "I'm gonna spend time with you." And so I think it's really important when we're actually trying to assess if somebody likes you, I wanna see, one, how does your nervous system feel? Are we constantly in this hyper- hypoarousal, hyperarousal? Are we high? Are we low? But I really think it goes back to the old school way of doing it. Can you have an open conversation with them? And at the end of the day, can you just ask them, "Hey, how are you feeling about this, and what are your intentions with where we're going?" I know it sounds like, oh, we all want a trick, and we all want a, like, something that we can look at, but I found really most people are pretty apt to having a conversation if we approach it in the right way.

   5. JSJay Shetty2:22

      Yeah, and I think you're, I think you're right. I, I think the challenge is that a lot of us still believe that love has to be earned-

   6. SZSabrina Zohar2:29

      Mm-hmm

   7. JSJay Shetty2:29

      ... and love has to be won, and so we love the idea of chasing and pursuing someone, and they become more attractive the more they avoid us, and they become more exciting the more elusive they are. And them not messaging back for three days almost makes us think, like, "They must be really busy and cool and interesting, and so I've really gotta work harder," only for us to feel let down because all of those were just signs that I'm not into you.

3. 2:56 – 5:36

   Why You Date the Parts of You That Aren’t Healed

   1. JSJay Shetty2:56

      So why is it that we chase people who are disinterested or showing disconnect, not doing all the things you just said? They're not consistent. They don't make you feel safe. They actually make you feel insecure because you're constantly wondering whether they like you or not. Why do we keep chasing them, and what should we do instead?

   2. SZSabrina Zohar3:14

      The number one question I ask is if you're chasing somebody, if you're going into the ruminating and the spiraling, I want you to check in with how old do you feel and where did I learn this from? Because those are the two questions, two things in general that changed my life. Now, why do we do it? It's interesting because when we ask why questions, and not that we're not going to answer it, but ourselves, why don't they like me? Why don't they... why aren't they into me? That's intellectualizing. And when we're intellectualizing, that's our way of saying, "If I can understand it intellectually, I don't have to feel it." And for a lot of us, at least me, I grew up in a very chaotic household. I grew up with no safety, really. I, I... there wasn't a presence of joy or love. And so for me, it felt familiar. My nervous system understands, "Oh, you're not into me? Similar to my dad. Then let me make you... Let me earn it." And then there's the term repetition compulsion. Have you heard of it?

   3. JSJay Shetty4:00

      Mm.

   4. SZSabrina Zohar4:01

      Okay.

   5. JSJay Shetty4:01

      No, I've not actually.

   6. SZSabrina Zohar4:02

      Yeah.

   7. JSJay Shetty4:02

      I've not.

   8. SZSabrina Zohar4:02

      So repetition compulsion is a Freudian term, and essentially what it means is you're going to date the parts of you that haven't been healed.

   9. JSJay Shetty4:08

      Mm.

   10. SZSabrina Zohar4:08

       And so it's-

   11. JSJay Shetty4:09

       Say that again. That is so good.

   12. SZSabrina Zohar4:11

       Yeah. So repetition compulsion means you're gonna date the parts of you that haven't been healed. So for me, I had a narcissistic father. Every man I dated was incredibly narcissistic. Why? Because my nervous system's homeostasis was you need to earn it, you're not enough, there's something wrong with you. That gets wired into us before words can even be said out of our mouths. That is wired in based on how your caregivers attuned to your needs, how were they showing up for you. And I wanna preface as well, no one's villainizing anybody's parents. This isn't about you had the worst parents, you had a big T trauma. Oftentimes it could be those small little paper cuts that start to add up. Maybe you had a parent that was really busy, and they just didn't make eye contact with you, and so now you feel that I need to get somebody. And oftentimes we're self-abandoning. Because if I can get you to like me, well, then my dad was wrong and everybody in the past was wrong. But what happens? Then it reaffirms my core belief. See, I knew there was something wrong with me. That person doesn't want me. I couldn't change them. That's where I ask when I start to chase somebody, how old do I feel? Do I feel like a kid? Do I feel like, man, I feel like I'm seven years old talking to my dad? So then we're not actually present. We're not in this present moment. We're not coming from the adult. We're coming from the little wounded kid that just needs to be seen, heard, loved, and understood. Then what I would say is I start to look and say, "What are my choices?" If you can't access your choice, then that means we need to regulate. And so this is something that actually blew my mind. My friend's a brilliant neuroscientist. His name is Dr. Chris Lee. And he taught me your state determines your stra- your story determines your strategy.

   13. JSJay Shetty5:35

       Tell me about what that

4. 5:36 – 7:19

   Understanding Your Emotional State Before You Date

   1. JSJay Shetty5:36

      state means.

   2. SZSabrina Zohar5:36

      So the state being are you... what is your nervous system state? Are you regulated? Meaning I can access my prefrontal cortex. I can access choice. Right now I feel safe. Both of us are here. But if somebody came in with a knife, we would get dysregulated. You might j- bolt. I might freeze, right? Our nervous system will change.

   3. JSJay Shetty5:53

      Yeah, I would just leave you.

   4. SZSabrina Zohar5:54

      Right, yeah. [laughs]

   5. JSJay Shetty5:55

      [laughs] Of course.

   6. SZSabrina Zohar5:55

      That would be, that would be it.

   7. JSJay Shetty5:55

      Yeah, yeah.

   8. SZSabrina Zohar5:56

      I'd be hiding.

   9. JSJay Shetty5:56

      [laughs]

   10. SZSabrina Zohar5:57

       But everybody handles it differently, right? You might fight. Everybody is going to come out depending on what feels safe and in the moment. But oftentimes the problem is that there's no tiger. There's no threat. It's just our nervous system is perceiving it because our brain wants to save space. And if our brain says, "It's easier for me to go this always happens," then I don't have to turn my prefrontal cortex on and access that place of choice. So when we look at your state, think about it in if I'm super dysregulated, my state is going to determine the story. I'm not safe. I need this person to answer me. There's something wrong with me. I'm not good enough. Which will then determine my strategy. I'll text them again. I'll get them to like me. As opposed to I need to learn to sit in the discomfort.I have to allow myself, because when we can sit in the discomfort and expand our window of tolerance, which essentially means how long we can stay s- in our ventral state versus going up and down, when you expand your window of tolerance, you can handle more things. Then it's not as scary, right? The person that doesn't call you, it's, "That's okay. Maybe they're going through something. I don't need to make it about me." But oftentimes the reason we go after these emotionally unavailable people is 'cause they're familiar. They're familiar, they're safe, and it's a baseline, because if that's all you've known, then that's all you're gonna do. You can't do better until you know better.

   11. JSJay Shetty7:06

       Do you take private clients? [laughs]

   12. SZSabrina Zohar7:08

       Sure do.

   13. JSJay Shetty7:08

       Well, there's so many people I wanna introduce you to now. I'm so excited that you're here. I couldn't agree with you more, and that's, that's sat so deeply and resonated so strongly for me right now as you're saying it.

5. 7:19 – 10:03

   Don’t Ignore These Red Flags!

   1. JSJay Shetty7:19

      Is there such a thing as immediate red flags? Are there things that people can say and do that you consider to be immediate red flags?

   2. SZSabrina Zohar7:27

      100%. I have a few that come to mind. The first one is, my favorite question to ask on a first date is how did your last relationship end, and what did it teach you about yourself? I don't care about your ex. I really ... I could, I could give a shit. What I care about is what did you learn from it? Are you growth-minded? Do you take accountability and ownership? For instance, the biggest thing that narcissists will say is, "All my exes are crazy." Okay, well, if all of your exes are crazy, what's your accountability in it? Do you have any empathy for their experience? That off the bat shows us no thank you. Another thing that I always suggest to run is when somebody tries to say you deserve better. Because when someone says you deserve better, what they're saying is, "I'm not going to become the version of what you need me to be, so you should find somebody else." We also wanna look, what happens when you say no, that doesn't work for me? Do they respect your boundaries? Are they pushing back? I've had that, right? When I dated, if somebody said, "I wanna go out at 10:00," I would say, "Oh, no, I, I, I go to bed by 9:30. I apologize. That doesn't work for me. Why don't we do 6:00?" "Oh, wow, what? Is there something wrong? Is your babysitter not gonna let you..." Unmatch immediately, because you didn't respect what I had to say, so then what are, what are we leading towards if off the bat you're making fun of me for setting a boundary?

   3. JSJay Shetty8:31

      Mm.

   4. SZSabrina Zohar8:32

      So I think what's important is we're so focused on are they choosing me, are they gonna pick me, that we end up self-abandoning and say, "My wants, needs, and desires don't matter. I need you to like me." And so we then overlook all the red flags of, well, are they showing, are, are they holding any space for you? Do you, do they use I statements, or do they blame you for everything, right? These are the little things that we overlook, and not because there's anything wrong with us, but because maybe we weren't taught any better. And I know I wasn't. I used to think grandiosity and the charm, oh, butterflies, those are my favorite thing, until I found out butterflies are actually your nervous system's way of telling you that you might need to run. Because if that person wasn't as attractive, you probably wouldn't be as interested.

   5. JSJay Shetty9:11

      That's exactly what I find. We're willing to tolerate so much-

   6. SZSabrina Zohar9:15

      Yeah

   7. JSJay Shetty9:15

      ... poor treatment because we find someone attractive, interesting, or fascinating in whatever way, whether it's their mind, their body, their face, their charm. And someone who doesn't have those features that we subjectively are attracted to, even if they did all the other things, we just push them away. But again, it comes back down to what you're saying, that those butterflies that we trust as a sign of excitement and chemistry and desire are usually a sign of, please, you're feeling all this, but don't ignore all of this.

   8. SZSabrina Zohar9:49

      Right.

   9. JSJay Shetty9:49

      And the natural thing is it just hijacks that mindset, and it takes away all of the sense that we have. And we've all had that feeling.

   10. SZSabrina Zohar9:58

       Of course.

   11. JSJay Shetty9:58

       Right? You meet someone, and you're so enthralled and impressed by them that you completely ignored all of these things.

6. 10:03 – 13:10

   What Should a Healthy, Secure Relationship Feel Like?

   1. JSJay Shetty10:03

      How do we feel a sense of spark and chemistry with someone but not forget our head?

   2. SZSabrina Zohar10:08

      So that's really goes back to that regulating, because th- here's the fallacy that I think a lot of people may not understand about a healthy and secure relationship, is if you're having high highs and low lows, then that n- is inherently not healthy and secure. Because what we have is intermittent reinforcement. Are they giving me a little? Okay, I'm waiting, waiting, waiting. Oh, I come crashing down. Then they give me a little. We're high, low, high, low. A healthy and secure relationship, for me at least, was a lot less exciting. It was, oh, when I communicate with you, you validate what I just said, so I don't have to argue with you. I don't have to prove my worth. And for a lot of us, that can feel really scary. I know when the first time I set a boundary, I was terrified. I was so scared. I'm like, "He's gonna leave me. He's not gonna like me. He's gonna think I'm too much." And that was how I thought of myself, and that's what I was projecting onto him. Now, did people in the past do that? 100%. But I have met my fair share. I'm a heterosexual woman, so I'm gonna speak in those norms, where I've gone on dates with men that are... I'll tell you a story. I had a date that was written in the stars, right? I remember I was, like, sweating sitting next to this guy. People were like, "You guys have been together for years now." It's our first date, and we're together for five hours, and we make out at the bar. It's a whole thing. And I was supposed to see him again. Didn't end up seeing each other. Years later, this was an on and off, on and off thing, and he kept getting a girlfriend and on and off. Years later, I'm getting ... I'm, I'm, I'm in an appointment. I didn't wanna give it away by saying where I was. Years later, I'm in an appointment. I'm telling the girl this story, and all of a sudden she stops and goes, "What was his name?" And I said his name, and she turned white, and she started shaking, and she's like, "That's my narcissistic ex who literally ruined me." And she was hyperventilating, and she ... I, I had to hold her, and I was like, "Oh my God, I'm so sorry." And she was like, "He was abusive. He was doing all of these things to me. I finally got out. You're so lucky you didn't go down that road." And in the moment, she was right, because I completely overlooked the fact that he lied to me a bunch of times. He never took accountability. He was constantly deflecting. There was zero depth, right? He didn't want to have the conversations. Now, that's different than if he wanted to, he would. That's not what I'm talking about. He didn't have the capacity. And so I think what we're looking for is when you're with somebody, I don't want you to focus on how do they feel about me. I really don't care. I want you to focus on how do I feel in my body when I'm with this person. Do I feel secure? Do I feel confident that I can say what I need, or am I scared that everything I say, I don't know how they're gonna react? You can be excited, but my mama has said to me, "Anytime you're excited, you need to add something at the end of the sentence, 'for now.'"

   3. JSJay Shetty12:28

      Mm.

   4. SZSabrina Zohar12:28

      And everything was, "I had a great date, for now. I really liked this guy, for now." Because what it allows us to do is be in the present moment. For now, I really like this, but I'm not projecting on the future. I'm not putting that I'm only safe if I have this person, because when we put someone on a pedestal, we're saying they're above us. I have to have them. But really what we're looking for is two equals.Right? I give 80% one day, maybe you give 80%, and we're balancing and we're going back and forth, but the presence of safety in a healthy and secure relationship actually means that it's gonna be a lot less up and down, and it's gonna be a lot more consistent. And for people like me that grew up in chaos, that felt really scary 'cause I didn't understand it.

   5. JSJay Shetty13:04

      Yeah. What about, what about someone... I've heard this a lot lately, and that's why I'm asking you, from people I'm coaching and working with.

7. 13:10 – 19:37

   Why Slowing Down Creates Real Connection

   1. JSJay Shetty13:10

      What happens when someone shows you all the right things for four to six weeks? So they text back, they're consistent, they show up when they say they will, and then all of a sudden, after six weeks of spending nearly every other day together or seeing each other multiple times a week, they change.

   2. SZSabrina Zohar13:27

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JSJay Shetty13:27

      Now they're inconsistent. Now they message back after three days. Now they don't have time to see you. Something's come up in their life. And then you're waiting around, only for three months in they go, "Yeah, this is not working out." That comes as such a shock to people. Now, love bombing's one version, but that often feels like it's one person just trying to win you and show you and kind of, you know, kind of give you this perception that they love you. But this is more like, no, we're just both being adults, we're connecting, there seems to be regulation, there seems to be consistency. I'm seeing all the good signs, but then two months in, you're a totally different person. How have you seen people deal with that in a good way or in a healthy way?

   4. SZSabrina Zohar14:08

      It's jarring, right? It would never... I'll never discredit anyone's experience that when you think everything's good, but even you said something in the beginning that was really important. If they spend every other day together, it's like, that's intensity, and that's the thing, and that's why it can feel really scary and really... Because there's a lot of people, depending on the attachment style that they have, where they go and they operate from feelings minus fear. And so for some people, they'll go in 100% of, "I feel really good now. I feel really good now," because they're not taking a minute to say, "Hey, is this actually what I want? What does this person have? Are there qualities?" For a lot of people, they might enter it in in excitement. "Look, they're there, I'm here, and we're excited, we're excited, we're excited." And then the novelty wears off because the person is consistent, because they're not playing games, they're not being activated in the same way, and that's usually when you'll start to see the pull away. For me, which I am a big proponent of going slow.

   5. JSJay Shetty14:54

      Mm.

   6. SZSabrina Zohar14:55

      Going slow isn't an excuse for bad behavior. Going slow just means you're not expediting the stages of the relationship quicker than they need to be. And so what that could even look like is saying, "I, sorry, I have plans this week. I can only see you once or twice because I'm maintaining my life. You haven't earned a place in my life yet." And I see that a lot of the times, and I used to be her. I would meet a guy. I saw this terrible dating advice. She said, "Always have your dates on Thursday, because if it goes well, you can make plans for Saturday." And I said, "Oh, absolutely not, no, ma'am," because then I'm too accessible. Then what I'm telling this person is, "I have nothing going on. What do you wanna do?" And instead, they're an addition to my life, not instead of. And so if I'm welcoming you into my life, you have to earn that place into my life. And so I would say this, if it's happened, the best thing to do is, one, not take it personally, 'cause we have to ask, how could it be you? Now, if you can remove yourself and say, "Yikes, okay, I text them 300 times yesterday. I called them a bunch. I started accusing them," great, if you can be self-aware enough to remove yourself and understand it. But a lot of the times we have to say, "What's the story and the narrative that you've created about the situation?" 'Cause that's usually what's hurting more. It's less about, of course, right? But if you knew this person for a month and a half, do you really know anything about them, or is it the idea of them? The scarcity mindset, "I might never meet anybody else. They were the best I've met. I haven't met anyone like this." So then we're already putting them in a place that they haven't earned, because if they were so amazing, then they would've stuck around. And instead of thinking about what if, we have to look at what is. And what is, is that this person didn't show up in the ways that I need, and that doesn't work for me.

   7. JSJay Shetty16:19

      Yeah. I, I, I can't wait to send that to so many people to listen to, because sadly, it seems to be the reality. And I agree with you completely that it's all about that regulation, because when we like something, we want to fall in love, and we want it to be real, and we want to speed it up, and we want to spend every night with that person because that's what the movie showed us, and that's what the music talked about, and that's what we believed was love. Not only to realize that you are just making your access weaker, you're giving away all of yourself with not even knowing whether this person deserves it or has the values for it or has the character for it. And you can see it in hindsight, but then you go make the same mistake, because we all just wanna be wanted so bad. We all wanna be needed so bad. We wanna be loved so bad that we're willing to give away our energy, our presence, our body freely because it just feels so good to be wanted.

   8. SZSabrina Zohar17:14

      Of course. Who doesn't wanna be wanted? But here's my question: Who do you wanna be wanted by, them or you? More often than not, when we're, "I need them, I need them," your littles aren't scared that they're gonna leave you. Your littles are scared that you're gonna leave them, because that's what's always happened to them. If growing up, even for me, my experience was my father was very abusive to us, and he, he was not father of the year by any means. And so for me, it was, "Please come back for me. Please come back for me." And I didn't realize that in my dating life, I was doing to her what my dad did to me. I was doing to her and saying, "You don't matter to me. Get away. You're too much." So if I'm shaming and blaming myself, how am I gonna grow? If I show myself compassion, I can actually do that. And I understand the need and desire to be wanted, but if we... My mom, again, will say, "If you gotta love yourself more than the need to be loved by other people." It's not that I can't love you if you don't love yourself. That's a fallacy. I- plenty of people can love you if you don't love yourself. But if I need you in my life versus want you in my life, it's gonna be very dangerous, and I found that out when my dog passed away. I used to joke when he was alive, I'd be like, "Oh, he's never gonna die. Oh, he's never gonna die," and then he did. And it happened within 10 days, and it was the hardest thing I've ever experienced, and I lost everything in that moment. And that's when I realized I can't be so beholden to an external.

   9. JSJay Shetty18:29

      Mm.

   10. SZSabrina Zohar18:29

       Because I lost myself. I was a shell of a human, but I started my career at that same time.

   11. JSJay Shetty18:33

       Mm.

   12. SZSabrina Zohar18:33

       And I made that promise to myself, "I will never." And so even in my partnership now, I love my partner. I think he is one of the most amazing people I've met, but I also know that if today we decided it wasn't gonna work, I'd move on with my life. Not because I don't love him and not because I don't think that we could have a beautiful life together, but I also know that my life goes on, and I can't be holding onto somebody else hoping that they're gonna validate and choose me for me to live that life.

   13. JSJay Shetty18:56

       Mm-hmm.I'm so sorry for your loss. What was your dog's name?

   14. SZSabrina Zohar18:59

       His name was Clem. I've got him.

   15. JSJay Shetty19:01

       Aw.

   16. SZSabrina Zohar19:01

       He was my best friend, and he was my object permanence. He was with me for 10 years, and he saw every heartbreak, he saw everything. And I think at the end of the day, what he taught me was that there are things in people that can love you for who you are.

   17. JSJay Shetty19:12

       Mm.

   18. SZSabrina Zohar19:12

       Like, I know, I know I'm a big personality, I know I talk fast, and I have a different cadence, and I come out of the bat, and I know that a lot of people might not like that, but if I hate that about myself, how am I gonna be with someone that loves that about me? Because I'm constantly gonna be trying to change that.

   19. JSJay Shetty19:26

       Yeah.

   20. SZSabrina Zohar19:26

       And so my dog really taught me this really unconditional love-

   21. JSJay Shetty19:30

       [laughs]

   22. SZSabrina Zohar19:30

       ... and what that means, and he also taught me that I don't need to be for everybody, and that's okay.

   23. JSJay Shetty19:35

       Yeah. Well said. Beautiful

8. 19:37 – 23:39

   What’s Really Draining You About Dating?

   1. JSJay Shetty19:37

      lessons. I feel like right now everyone is exhausted with dating apps, setting up dates, figuring out who's gonna pay for it, where you're gonna meet. Where do you start-

   2. SZSabrina Zohar19:49

      Mm

   3. JSJay Shetty19:49

      ... if you're exhausted with dating, but you wanna find love?

   4. SZSabrina Zohar19:52

      I think what's really important is we have to look at what's exhausting us. I used to get exhausted from dating because I was putting so much pressure. I was putting all ... I would match with a guy, and be checking my phone hype- like every three seconds, "Where are they? Have they answered me?" Because what was I saying? "They're gonna make my life better. This is what I'm waiting for. This is what it is." And if I'm, again, if I'm not focused on what is right now, then I'm thinking of all of these other things it could be. And so I would say if you're tired from dating, then we have to start taking a break where they need. And that just means, again, let's talk about state, story, strategy. If your state is burnout and exhaustion, and you are just completely done, then your st- your story is gonna be, "There's no one for me. I'm so tired. I'm never gonna meet anybody. I want this to be done." So what's your strategy gonna be? You're gonna constantly go after the wrong people. You'll hold onto people 'cause you're scared to let them go. And I think here's the thing, what I've learned and why people are so tired of dating is because they haven't learned to grieve. Because when you hold onto everything and you haven't learned how to grieve the ending of things, it's going to be very difficult for you to move on and go to the next, and go to the next. Because the reality is, my partner always says, "Think of the stupidest person you know, and remember that the population is about 49% stupider." Right?

   5. JSJay Shetty21:03

      [laughs]

   6. SZSabrina Zohar21:03

      Like, there are a lot of duds. There's amazing people out there, but that's what dating is. And dating is that you go out and you see not just are you choosing me, but do I choose you? Do you work with my life? But I can't do that unless I learn to grieve. And so I think a lot of the fatigue we need to look at and say, "Where is that coming from?" And then ask, "What are my choices? Do I have to engage in that?" No. I met my partner on an app. You don't have to meet your partner on an app. But if your answer is, "I don't wanna do dating apps," are you okay getting rejected in person? Are you okay going up to someone and saying, "I love that sweater," and they go, "I have a girlfriend." "No worries. Thank you so much. Was asking for that, my brother, but thank you for telling me." Right? You've got to be okay and be really grounded in yourself. Apps are easier 'cause you're ... And so I think it's the expectations that we have, and we have to remember apps are a dopamine addiction loop, and so is your cellphone. That's why I'm a big fan of don't text a lot, because what happens when you meet somebody and you start texting a ton, you're creating a dopamine addiction loop. And so your brain is going, "I need more, I need more, I need more," because it's trying to baseline. And then when you're stressed, all of your neurotransmitters are de- being depleted, and then here we are, where you're a hot mess because the person didn't text you back in 20 minutes. And so I think the exhaustion and fatigue really comes from what are we thinking that these people are gonna give to us, and then how can I live that life now so that when I meet someone, I say, "I'm allowing you in my life 'cause you're not gonna mess with what I have"? And that's how it was when I met my partner. I was a shell of a human. I'd lost Clem, my company. I was, I was supposed to be on Shark Tank and it didn't work. It was a whole thing. But I remember thinking in my head, "I can't afford to lose myself." And so when I met him, I said, "Hey," and I, I looked him in the eyes. I'll be honest with you, I slept with my partner on the first date, and I looked him in the eyes when we left after we went to dinner, and I said, "I had a really great time with you, and if this is all it was, thank you so much. I really need it tonight. But if not, and you're gonna call me again, don't waste my fucking time. You better call me 'cause you're intentional." And he was like-

   7. JSJay Shetty22:49

      [laughs]

   8. SZSabrina Zohar22:50

      He thought that was so sexy.

   9. JSJay Shetty22:52

      [laughs]

   10. SZSabrina Zohar22:52

       He was like, "Man," and he said it, "You weren't afraid to lose me." He was like-

   11. JSJay Shetty22:55

       Mm

   12. SZSabrina Zohar22:55

       ... "You were more afraid to lose yourself." And that made it very sexy because he knew that me wanting him in my life wasn't me trying to hold onto him.

   13. JSJay Shetty23:01

       Mm.

   14. SZSabrina Zohar23:01

       I was choosing him.

   15. JSJay Shetty23:02

       Mm. I love that.

   16. SZSabrina Zohar23:03

       Right?

   17. JSJay Shetty23:04

       That's so cool. Yeah.

   18. SZSabrina Zohar23:05

       It's a different energy.

   19. JSJay Shetty23:06

       That's brilliant. Yeah. Yeah.

   20. SZSabrina Zohar23:06

       And that's, I think ... And I'll be honest, I didn't wake up like this. I used to be so ... I created my career because I was so anxious I couldn't sit still. I would ... Oh, my God, Jay, you don't even wanna know. In my heyday, I would text a guy and say, like, I would text him, "Hey, do you wanna hang out?" 20 minutes would go by, I didn't hear back, I'd go like, "Okay, guess not." And then I'd get a text from him, be like, "Hey, I actually did wanna hang out with you, but not anymore."

   21. JSJay Shetty23:28

       [laughs]

   22. SZSabrina Zohar23:28

       And it's like, they're right.

   23. JSJay Shetty23:29

       That's so good.

   24. SZSabrina Zohar23:30

       They're right 'cause they could pick up on I need you, and nobody wants to feel that when you just met somebody.

   25. JSJay Shetty23:35

       Yeah.

   26. SZSabrina Zohar23:36

       It's a very overwhelming feeling.

   27. JSJay Shetty23:37

       Yeah.

   28. SZSabrina Zohar23:37

       I don't care what your attachment style is.

9. 23:39 – 30:29

   Your Partner Will Trigger You, That’s Okay!

   1. JSJay Shetty23:39

      Yeah. But I think that's the challenge, right? That we are scared of being ourselves because ourselves is that right now, where our natural gut reaction is to message someone, "Hey, do you wanna hang out? Hey, are you sure you don't wanna hang out?" Like, you know, it, and that's who we are because we are coming from a place of insecurity and not feeling safe, as you said earlier, from our past wounds. And so being ourself doesn't help either because being ... And so then we block being ourselves. So we say, "Oh, you know what? I'm gonna be mature. I'm gonna send one message and I'm gonna wait." But the real you is stressing over the fact that you wanna send another message. And so how do you live between those two worlds, between wanting to become your higher, more evolved, emotionally intelligent self, but really you're stuck being insecur- insecure, confused, and chaotic?

   2. SZSabrina Zohar24:26

      So that's ... No, the only thing I'll challenge you on is who says-

   3. JSJay Shetty24:29

      Yeah

   4. SZSabrina Zohar24:29

      ... that's who you are?

   5. JSJay Shetty24:30

      Who says that?

   6. SZSabrina Zohar24:31

      Who says that's who you are, right?

   7. JSJay Shetty24:32

      I mean, not who you are at the core-

   8. SZSabrina Zohar24:34

      No

   9. JSJay Shetty24:34

      ... but who you are right now, that's your base level. Yeah.

   10. SZSabrina Zohar24:36

       Totally. Then I would go back and say, "Where did I learn that from?" Because I, if we're, if we're gonna date from lack, and we're gonna date from I'm insecure, I don't believe in myself, it's gonna be really difficult to let someone love you in the ways that you deserve. Because the reality is, and you know this, you're married, your partner's gonna trigger you. You are going to be triggered. Your partner is gonna piss you off. They're gonna say things and you're like, "Oh, no, eh." But you don't because you care about this person and you love them, but part of being a human is you're going to get triggered. And so I think what I see-Especially with a lot of people when we have that insecurity is for me I would say, "Okay, is that who you are? Is that what you were taught?" Because if that's what I was taught, then that means that who I authentically am, I authentically am someone who has a lot of light, who's excited, who's passionate, who's gregarious, who's vivacious, who's a big personality. I'm not insecure. I'm not those things. But I do identify as that, and I think that's very human. So I would say what we want to start to do is look at... I would never suggest somebody date if they're in such a place of lack. I would not. It's the same as anything else. Like, I wouldn't suggest somebody go and run a marathon if they've never gotten off the couch. It's like we want to move in steps. Because like New Year's resolutions, your nervous system is gonna go, "I can't do this. Way too overwhelming." So we want to go smaller and have bite-sized kind of steps. And so maybe that means that if you want to be the really evolved person that only sends one text, and you are hell in a handbasket, then maybe that means that we put one minute. One minute. Because what we're trying to do is we're trying to take the stimulus and put space between reaction and response. And so maybe that's it. For one day you say, "Okay, I, I waited a minute and then I sent the text." But then the next day maybe it's you waited two minutes, you waited three minutes. What we have to look at is what are my choices? Sure, we can keep showing up in those ways, or we can say, "Wait a minute. I need to regulate my nervous system. I need to break this loop. I need to go for a walk. I need to get myself back into a place where I can access choice. Then I can decide if I want to text this person." We can have all those tools, but then we have to look and say, "But am I identifying with something?" Right? I'm sure you hear this all the time, "I am anxious attachment." No, no, no, you're not that, you have that. I am not ADHD, I have ADHD. If I self-identify and I fuse with the parts, it's going to be very difficult for me to see myself in any other light. And so I think if we have insecurities, we're all human. I do. I, I think every day there's something wrong with me because I'm a person. But what I do is I then stop and say, "What did my little need to hear? What did little Sabrina need to hear when she said, 'Oh, this must be why there's something wrong with me'" She needed someone to come and say, "No, that has nothing to do with them. I think you're amazing. I think you're really cool, and I'd like to hear what you want." Because we haven't... We have to hold the space in a way that we weren't held when we were there. That's how we'll start to be able to build through the insecurities, date from a more regulated space. But without that, we're putting makeup on a pig.

   11. JSJay Shetty27:13

       Yeah.

   12. SZSabrina Zohar27:13

       Right? They're like, "Oh, send him this text to get this." It's like, I've gotten inappropriate photos.

   13. JSJay Shetty27:19

       Yeah, it always doesn't-

   14. SZSabrina Zohar27:19

       It does not work.

   15. JSJay Shetty27:19

       [laughs]

   16. SZSabrina Zohar27:19

       You know? Like, I've gotten my fair share where I'm like, "That's not what I expected."

   17. JSJay Shetty27:23

       Yeah.

   18. SZSabrina Zohar27:23

       Because you can't manipulate and control other people, you can only control yourself.

   19. JSJay Shetty27:26

       Yeah. I don't love that advice.

   20. SZSabrina Zohar27:28

       No.

   21. JSJay Shetty27:28

       I don't think it works.

   22. SZSabrina Zohar27:29

       It doesn't.

   23. JSJay Shetty27:29

       And, and it's just gamified, and-

   24. SZSabrina Zohar27:31

       Right

   25. JSJay Shetty27:32

       ... it's, it's not you, and it's a technique, and, uh, it's a strategy that ends up... You know, it's like strategies of, like, business and projects, [laughs] not for people. And, you know, when it comes to people, you wanna be able to be authentic, be yourself, and connect with someone on, on a real perspective rather than having some perfect AI script out your perfect [laughs] text message. Um-

   26. SZSabrina Zohar27:51

       We've gotten a few profiles where I look and I'm like, "That was ChatGPT that wrote it."

   27. JSJay Shetty27:55

       Yeah.

   28. SZSabrina Zohar27:55

       And I actually had a client once, and he... I would talk to him, and I was saying, "You know, what if they said this?" And he was writing it and taking the exact.

   29. JSJay Shetty28:01

       Oh.

   30. SZSabrina Zohar28:01

       So he had all this depth on his profile, and then he would say, "I don't understand. Why am I not getting... Why are these girls not wanting to meet me?" I said, "Can I see the match? Like, can I see the conversations?" "Hey, you look pretty." And then one girl even said, "But your profile was so deep. What is this?"
10. 30:29 – 34:42

    Building a Strong Foundation for Dating

    1. JSJay Shetty30:29

       in ChatGPT, helping the right people discover and buy your product seamlessly. When we started Juni, Shopify was there every step of the way, supporting us as we built something meaningful. They grow with you, whether it's your first launch or your hundredth. Focus less on the complexity and more on showing up for your vision. Shopify gives you the foundation. You provide the commitment. Stay committed to what matters. Start simply at shopify.com/jay. You talk about setting a foundation in dating. I wanna hear about that, because I think when people are dating, we almost see it as just like, "Okay, well, this person messed me back. I'm now talking to them. Now we're gonna go on a date. Maybe this other pe-" I don't think we have a system. I don't think we have a foundation. I don't believe we have non-negotiables that we create and craft to keep us on track. What would you say are the foundations of dating, and what are the non-negotiables that allow us to make that experience more effective for us?

    2. SZSabrina Zohar31:26

       For me, my number one non-negotiable was you have to be done with your ex. Like, I, I am so tired of hearing, "Oh, my ex wants to get back together. I'm not over my ex." It's like, then please don't get back into the dating world if you don't feel like you can be present with somebody else. It's okay that you might still be hurting, but then please don't go back out there. I think for me, I wanna see are you growth-minded? My partner always asked questions, and the one question he asked was, "What is something you changed your mind about recently, and what prompted the change?" I wanna see are you rigid? Are you flexible, right? We wanna start to understand that. What happens when I say no? What happens when I set a boundary? How do they treat waiters? I wanna see somebody when they're dysregulated, because then I wanna see did you just yell at that person because he didn't get your car at the time that you wanted? No, thank you. I have no interest in this. And so what we're trying to look and see is that, first of all, is, like, does this person treat other people well? Is it somewhere where I can feel comfortable? Are they using I statements, or are they saying, "You never call me. You never do this"? Okay, so we're using all and never. Those are not really fair terms. But I think when we're talking about a solid foundation, that's where going slow comes into play, because what we're doing is we're saying every single time I see you, it's first dateJust to see if I want to have a second. Second, just to see if I want to have a third. But oftentimes we go on a first date and say, "Prince Charming." And the thing is, Disney lied to us, because Disney told us what happened happily ever after. They didn't tell us, did Prince Eric have a drinking problem, right?

    3. JSJay Shetty32:43

       [laughs]

    4. SZSabrina Zohar32:43

       Like, did, did Beauty and the Bea- did, did Belle not get out of the house again? Was she, was she dealing with that? We don't know what comes after it. We just see happily ever after. And so what we're really looking for is, well, what does that look like to you? And I think for me, I was so focused on, "But if you like me, I like me," instead of saying, "No, I actually don't enjoy that," and holding the space to say, "I don't like that. And if you don't either, that's okay."

    5. JSJay Shetty33:05

       Mm.

    6. SZSabrina Zohar33:05

       But I think the solid foundation comes when you can have a space where you can trust, and that includes hard conversations. Because I think a lot of people, and I'm sure, I'm curious if you hear this as well, I hear it every day of, "I don't want to be too much. I don't want to push them away. If I ask that, they're gonna think I'm too much." Then good. F- go find less. If you think I'm too much, I'd encourage you to go find less, because that doesn't make me too much. What that means is that I want to see if you are okay for me, and that's why I'm big on if somebody says something that hurts you, "Hey, can I share something with you? What's going on? I really didn't love the way you said that. It really made me feel small. I felt very dismissed and discredited. Moving forward, can we have a different way of saying it?" If your partner, "Absolutely. Thank you so much for telling me," great. Move on. Go into, to... You pass go, collect $200. But if you can't even have the rupture, the regulate, and then the repair, you're not gonna be able to move forward with these people.

    7. JSJay Shetty33:53

       Mm.

    8. SZSabrina Zohar33:54

       And so I think from the beginning, that's why I told my partner that out to first date. I could have left and gone play it cool. "Oh my God, don't say anything." What did I have to lose? I- myself, and that was way too high of a price. And so I'm a big fan of don't trauma dump. God, please don't trauma dump on a first date. Please, please, we don't need to start talking about, like, how your father hit you when you're a kid. Your date does not need to know that. We have to be really cognizant that we don't know who these people are, and we don't know what information they could take and put in their back pocket and use against us. Trust is conditional. I give you a little, I see what you do with it, I give you more.

    9. JSJay Shetty34:23

       Yeah, absolutely.

    10. SZSabrina Zohar34:24

        That's the foundation I want people to build, which is I trust myself, because no matter what, I have my back. And if you don't, that's okay, I do.

    11. JSJay Shetty34:30

        Mm-hmm.

    12. SZSabrina Zohar34:31

        Because I'll speak. My voice now needs to be heard, and it never was. And I think that's part of the foundations, is having your non-negotiables mean I'm not playing small anymore. This doesn't mean I need to overreact, but I'm not gonna play small.

    13. JSJay Shetty34:41

        One of your

11. 34:42 – 41:17

    How to Advocate for Yourself Without Fear of Losing Them

    1. JSJay Shetty34:42

       greatest skills, Sabrina, as I'm hearing you talk about this, is your ability to advocate for yourself, and that's what you're encouraging people to do, is to actually advocate for yourself, your beliefs, your thoughts, your values, and I think that's a skill that no one really has or is trained in, in that there's nowhere in life that teaches you to advocate for yourself. Like, school never taught you that. Your parents rarely tell you that. And when you're young, you just ask for stuff. You're not advocating, right? You're, like, saying, "Oh, I want this for Christmas," or, "I want this for whatever," but you're not advocating. Like, you're not presenting an argument or sharing a value because you've been treated a certain way. And we struggle to do it at work. People struggle to do it with their colleagues, their bosses, their managers, everyone. So as I'm listening to you, I'm like, okay, advocating for ourselves is one of the biggest skills. And I remember talking about foundations for dating or being clear and advocating. I remember when me and Radhi first started dating, one of the first things I said to her was, I was like, "I'm not the kind of guy that wants to go to the cinema on the weekend and then go to a furniture store, and then... Like, that's just not who I am. And I'm the kind of guy who has a purpose, and this is what I do on my weekends, and this is my priority. And I just want you to know that that's not because I think this is less than. This is just who I am." And I just wanted her to be clear on what she was getting involved in, where I was like, "Hey, if there's a clash between something that's a family event of yours or me," and at the time I was doing, like, five p- per five-person events in London. And I was like, "If I've got an event, I'm always gonna prioritize my event, because I'm doing that on my weekends and it's really big for me. But if it's something that you really want me to come to, then it's a conversation. But more likely than not, I'm gonna advocate for wanting to go to this thing." And I did that not to be douchey or to be self-righteous or to be better. I did it because that's just who I am. And luckily, Radhi at the time would be like, "Yeah, I totally get that. And by the way, if you want me to be at that and I have this, I'm probably gonna go to this, because as much as I want to support you, this is a priority for me." And our relationship has continued to be that way up until this point. And to me, I've just seen it as a great strength that I was able to advocate and she was able to advocate for herself. Now, had I not advocated for myself, and I think often what we do is we try to advocate for what the other person should do. So, "Hey, when I do this, can you come and join me?" Rather than, like, "This is a priority for me, and I'm gonna make it a priority for myself." Teach us the skill of advocating for ourselves, because most of us just want to let it go because we don't want to be too much, enough, or crazy.

    2. SZSabrina Zohar37:09

       I think where it started from is a memory that comes very vividly. When I was a kid, my dad, like I had mentioned, was not a very kind man at times. And my sister and I got into a fight, and I ran into my room. And I remember he said, "Open the door. I promise you I'm not gonna hit you." And I said, "No, you are." And I remember I had a little suitcase. And I only know this because I had to go back and see her. And I kept asking myself, where did I learn that I couldn't speak up? And it was because I said, "Dad, do you promise?" And I opened the door, and he punched me in the face. And I was bleeding everywhere, and he left, and he left us for three weeks. And I remember my brother on the couch saying, "How am I gonna be the man of the house? I'm only 14." And I was seven. And so I knew in that moment, you're not safe. And I also learned in that moment is, you can't speak up. You gotta keep your mouth shut, girl, because if you open it up, you're gonna have this again. You almost lost your father for your family. And I carried that with me. And it wasn't until I started to do the work where I said, "Where did I learn that from?" And I went back, and I literally, I opened the door for her, and I told him, "Get out of my [muted] face." And I spoke to my father as the version now, and I took her and I said, "We're out of here. You don't have to live here anymore." And I have done that every single day. Because whether she be in the attic, whether she be back in that room, it doesn't matter where she is. For anybody that's listening, you might not have that journey. You might have it be something completely different. But if you want to advocate for yourself, you gotta learn where you learned that that wasn't safe. And I have to give myself permission to advocate for myself. And then what I also have to do is know people are gonna not be, like, okay with that. We have to remember-If you've never set boundaries, and then all of a sudden you start setting boundaries with someone and they push back, well, yeah, because they benefited from the version of you that didn't have any. And so now when you start to show up differently, you're gonna have to grieve that people are gonna leave. But then what you also do is you get to choose who gets to come into your life. Because what you did with Radhi was beautiful. "Hey, here's where I'm at." And she says, "Okay, here's where I'm at." And you're both going, "That works for me." And you're making a choice because you're both able to make choices, and that's the problem, is when we think, "I don't have a choice. Well, they didn't call me. I don't know what to do." You're not six years old waiting for your mom or dad to let you out of that room. You get to choose. Now, that took a lot of work, that took a lot of tears, that took meditation, that took me years of having to really sit and say, "I'm okay with this." And I would be lying to you if I said that I wake up every morning like that. I have to advocate for myself online. You know the internet as well as I do. It's a terrible place to be. And when I get trolls or attacked, I'm the one that has to say, "I don't appreciate this. Get out of my ecosystem." Because if I don't stand for something, I fall for everything, and if I don't have my own back, who is going to? And I learned that the hard way in childhood when no one had my back. When, who was there? And so now really the way to start to advocate for yourself is to understand where did I learn that I couldn't, and to re-parent that version of us, to be able to even close your eyes, hand on your stomach, hand on your cha- your belly and just say, "I feel like I'm six right now, and that's okay that Sabrina's really scared, but I want her to know that she has me and that Dad's no longer here and I got rid of him." Now, that didn't make it magically okay, but what I did was I showed myself compassion and I was able to close the loop in my brain that it's safe for me to do that, and then I deal with what comes up. And so I think if you wanna advocate for yourself, we have to learn where you learned that that wasn't safe, and then we have to go back, even in a meditation, therapy, doesn't matter, right? You can do this however you want. I do it with clients. We all do it in different ways, but we have to be able to go back to those parts and tell those versions, "It wasn't you." Because what happens, I don't know if you're familiar with egocentric age. And so essentially what that's saying in psychology is from zero to seven, zero to 10, depending on the school of thought, is that we are narcissistic as children. You have to be. That's how you learn like, "Oh, I fell. Okay, I could get back up." But we attune to our caregivers. And so during that phase, if at six years old your father keeps leaving, of course you're going, "Oh, it's me. Oh, there must be something wrong." Because if you didn't have an adult to come and say, "Hey, they're unstable. This isn't you. You didn't do anything wrong. Their way of dealing with this doesn't mean anything about you," who had those parents, right? Very few of us. Then that's where we create these core beliefs, and then the core beliefs become our stories, and then they become our cognitive dissonances, and then that's how we start to move through the world. And so it really starts with where did I learn this from, and then what did I need then that I have to give myself now?

    3. JSJay Shetty41:11

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SZSabrina Zohar41:11

       And that was me having a voice and being okay that my voice is gonna hurt people, but it's also gonna help people.

    5. JSJay Shetty41:16

       Mm-hmm.

12. 41:17 – 43:59

    Are You Feeling Alone?

    1. JSJay Shetty41:17

       Thank you for sharing that difficult example. It's... I hope that helps a lot of people because just hearing how connected they are, and of course how traumatic and difficult that moment is, but at the same time, how much resilience it brings and how much strength it brings in this moment now because of your actions then and because of your ability then, and I hope that gives everyone else permission to really do that work. Doing the work isn't all the fancy buzzwords-

    2. SZSabrina Zohar41:47

       No

    3. JSJay Shetty41:48

       ... and it's, it's what you just shared so openly, and I'm so grateful for your vulnerability because I really believe you're giving everyone who's listening permission to do that same work before we just walk into another relationship and walk into another situation where we don't advocate for ourselves. Two years go by, we know we've been suppressing advocating for ourselves, and then that person leaves us because we never advocated and we never said what we wanted, and then they left anyway.

    4. SZSabrina Zohar42:17

       I would argue to anybody that's scared, right, "Oh, what if they leave me or what if I'm alone?" It's like, but aren't you already? Aren't you already alone? If, I've been in relationships where I couldn't be my authentic self, and I would cry myself to sleep because I felt more trapped in my own body, right? I couldn't be myself. I couldn't be authentic. And I think the biggest thing that I learned along the way was that it's really important to thank your little, because I am so grateful that my little Sab learned these coping mechanisms. I'm not grateful she had to, but I'm grateful she did because she did keep me safe. I'm here right now. I'm alive, I'm breathing, I'm well, and thank, that's thanks to her. And I think a lot of us look at as like, "I wanna get rid of that part. I don't wanna look at them. That's what got me into trouble." But the more we resist that, the more it's gonna persist, and then they're gonna keep coming out and saying, "Hey, remember me? I'm still hurting." So if we can turn to those parts, and that's really why a lot of people don't wanna do the work. It's really painful. It's hard to look back and say, "Oh wow, yeah, that's what I went through." And I'm, I, I look at photos of little me, that's like a, a great way to reconnect with your little, and I cry every time I see it 'cause I can't fathom why anybody would hurt her. But what I do know is I'm not gonna hurt her ever again, and I'm not gonna let anyone-

    5. JSJay Shetty43:22

       Mm-hmm

    6. SZSabrina Zohar43:22

       ... get next to her, and that includes anyone I date, that includes relationships, that includes colleagues, that includes everything in my life. And I know that if I do and something happens, I'm the adult and I have my back, and I will protect her in a way that no one did.

    7. JSJay Shetty43:35

       Mm-hmm. That's so powerful. I love hearing that. So, so thankful to hear your strength and courage through it all. It's, it's really inspiring and I hope, I really hope everyone who's listening and watching right now, we know it's tough to do the work and it, you know, it's heartbreaking sometimes to do the work. But breaking it open is far more likely to create a breakthrough right now than avoiding it.

13. 43:59 – 46:50

    How to Spot Emotional Unavailability Early

    1. JSJay Shetty43:59

       What are the signs of an emotionally unavailable person?

    2. SZSabrina Zohar44:03

       Somebody who's emotionally unavailable is going to consistently buoy conversations back to shallow. So it, notice that you're like-

    3. JSJay Shetty44:08

       Interesting, yeah

    4. SZSabrina Zohar44:09

       ... I can't seem to have any depth with them. They just keep bringing it back to that. That's the first thing with an emotionally unavailable person. The second thing, they shy away from any conversations of commitment. If you even ask like, "Do you wanna do something on Saturday?" They, it, they really struggle. They struggle to let you in. And so that's where we say everything is shallow. There's a lot of like, "Eh." And so really what I see is like one of my friends is dating a guy, and it's so classic, right? They'll, they'll hook up, they have a great night. She won't hear from him for days, and the minute she brings anything up to him, it's just, "Gotta go. Can't talk about this. Sorry, I don't wanna do that. I'm uncomfortable." Now-A lot of people would look and say, "Well, if he wanted to, he would. He must just not want her bad enough." But what we have to look at is capacity. Because in our brain, want and do are two different parts of our brain. So I can want a lot of things. I wanna be a millionaire. I'm not. But is that because I don't want it bad enough? No. Like, there's, there's other things along the way. But somebody that's emotionally unavailable, what we have to look and say is, it doesn't mean them, uh ... they're a bad person. But what that means is that they can only meet you as deeply as they've met themselves, and if that person is saying, "Emotions are scary, I don't wanna be vulnerable, that makes me uncomfortable," then how do you think they're gonna hold your space? How do you think they're going to be able to show up? Because a lot of people look and say, "Oh, come on, it's just a relationship. Why won't you commit to me?" Well, what comes with commitment? Commitment comes with having to be accountable to somebody else's emotions and feelings. You ... We're both ... You're married, I'm in a relationship. You know. Being committed to somebody is more than just you go to the movies or you go to the park together. That's holding space. That's learning to regulate. That's learning to coexist with somebody else. And if somebody's not in that space ... My partner, he lost his sister three years ago before we met. She took her own life, unfortunately. And he really struggled for that year to open up to anybody, because he was in so much pain. Now, is that because he didn't want to? Absolutely not. But he was emotionally unavailable because he couldn't hold the capacity for his own emotions. How is he gonna hold it for anybody else? That's why they're shallow and they don't really go deep, because it feels very scary. And for a lot of people that are emotionally unavailable, doesn't really matter the attachment style. Here's the s- the thing that people hate. A lot of people like to say that the avoidants are the emotionally unavailable, and while they might be, so are the anxious. Anxious people are also emotionally unavailable, because they're not actually understanding what's coming up for them. They're focused on the other person. So when we outsource, then we're ... Are we being in touch with our own emotions? Are we able to say, "I feel this, and this is how this impacted me"? For most people, they can't. And so I think what we have to look at is, is there a discomfort with depth, with emotionality, and with going there? That's the first l- step that you're gonna tell, and my suggestion would be please don't try to change them. That is something that that person will do when they're ready and they have the capacity to do it, but you coming into their life isn't gonna w- be what changes it.

    5. JSJay Shetty46:46

       Hmm.

    6. SZSabrina Zohar46:47

       And that's the reality.

    7. JSJay Shetty46:48

       And I think that's almost what upsets us

14. 46:50 – 48:52

    Why Boundaries Are Non-Negotiable

    1. JSJay Shetty46:50

       more sometimes, because we go, "Wait, they have the potential for it. They just don't have the capacity for me, so I'm gonna be the one to open up that capacity," or, "If they really like me, they'll get that capacity," and it annoys us more. So it's frustrating, 'cause when someone just ... When we believe that someone just isn't that person, it's okay, but when we believe they are that person, they have the ability, but they don't have the capacity, right? If someone doesn't have the ability to be empathetic or understanding, we're like, "Okay, they don't have the ability." But when you're like, "It's a capacity issue," like, "Oh, that ... If they love me enough, they'll have it," what do you do then?

    2. SZSabrina Zohar47:27

       You accept it that they might not, and that's the reality. If there's somebody that's growth-minded and says ... Like, my partner and I, we're in therapy because he is 1,000% in of like, "I wanna work through this. I don't wanna be emotionally unavailable. I don't wanna be avoidant." He's like, "I wanna be secure. I wanna show up for you as the man you deserve." I didn't change ... I didn't make him do that. I told him from the beginning, "If you don't let me in, I can't continue doing this."

    3. JSJay Shetty47:49

       Yeah.

    4. SZSabrina Zohar47:50

       And I set boundaries, and that's what's important, is if you meet somebody and they're say- Like, I had one guy and he said, "Oh, you know I'm emotionally unavailable," and I said, "Yeah. So get out of my house." I was done with him. Done. Because every time I'd go and say, "Hey, I need to hold you accountable. You said you were gonna do this and you didn't," "God, don't you have your own life?" Why are you deflecting this onto me? You're not taking accountability for what you did. Now, I could've sat and said, "Maybe one day. Maybe one day." I'm not betting on potential, because my dad never changed, so what makes me think these people will? Didn't matter how much I loved my father, didn't matter how much I showed up for him, it didn't matter how much my mother ... It didn't matter what she did for him, it didn't change who he was, because that's not how this works. And so I would say if you're dating somebody emotionally unavailable who is growth-minded and saying, "I'm willing to do the work," chef's kiss, all right? Continue on and see if they have the capacity, and they might not. That's a very real reality. They could do all this work and you can still say, "But I need more." But oftentimes it's not that I m- need more than you, I need more of you, and that's a really big discerning distinction.

    5. JSJay Shetty48:43

       Mm-hmm. So good.

    6. SZSabrina Zohar48:44

       Because if I need more than you, I'm shit out of luck, but if I need more of you, we have something that we can work with if they're willing to do the same.

    7. JSJay Shetty48:50

       So good. Yeah.

15. 48:52 – 52:17

    How to Be Honest About Your Feelings

    1. JSJay Shetty48:52

       I love that. You can't love someone into change. You can only love them as they change, and I think that's the mix-up, where we think, "If I love this person enough, they will change." No, they won't.

    2. SZSabrina Zohar49:04

       No.

    3. JSJay Shetty49:05

       They will stay exactly the same. You can only love them as they decide to change if they want to, and chances are, if they're not showing you ... And by the way, most people are telling us the truth.

    4. SZSabrina Zohar49:15

       Oh, yeah.

    5. JSJay Shetty49:16

       Most people are already saying, like, "You know what I'm like. You know I'm not ready for a relationship. You know, you know I don't really think that way. You know I'm not into this." People are already telling us.

    6. SZSabrina Zohar49:26

       Yeah.

    7. JSJay Shetty49:26

       But we ignore it. We just don't wanna believe them, because we secretly are wishing, wanting, waiting, hoping that something will miraculously ... Or we s- we, we think we see a spark of it within them, we think we see a glimpse of it within them, because they show it to us once every 90 days.

    8. SZSabrina Zohar49:43

       Right.

    9. JSJay Shetty49:44

       And we hold onto that once every 90 days and go, "But that's who they really are."

    10. SZSabrina Zohar49:47

        It's like situationships, right?

    11. JSJay Shetty49:48

        Yeah.

    12. SZSabrina Zohar49:48

        When anybody ... People are in situationships, it's like, so which one are you out of the bunch? Are you the one with commitment issues, are you the one that doesn't ... that's insecure? Because w- how do we get into that dynamic? How do we get into the emotionally unavailable dynamic with people? Because we're not taking up space. Because one person is saying, "I'm gonna play the cool guy or girl. I'm not gonna have any needs. I'll be the, the two-dimensional." And that's why the nice guy and the nice girl finish last, because that's all they have. For me, I find it so sexy when someone tells me no. And not in the like, just to say it. I find it really sexy if I say, "I really like this," and they, "Oh, I actually don't."

    13. JSJay Shetty50:20

        [laughs]

    14. SZSabrina Zohar50:20

        Right? And you're like, "Tell me more. Like, what don't you love about it? What was your experience? How did that land on you?" Versus, "Whatever you like, I like," and that's, like, not really a place that you wanna be. But I think when we were talking emotionally available, to your point, people are pretty honest. And I think ... I'll say this. I used to date the emotionally unavailable people, because that was my baseline. I knew how to keep myself safe. I knew how to perform, I knew how to try to be the fixer, I knew how to put, to project onto them all the things that I wanted them to be, and that's why my mama would say, "What if or what is," right? What, what are we looking at here? Now that I'm in a healthy relationship, I gotta sayYou know when someone's into you when they like you. This person is going to call you. They're going to have conversations. If you come to them with something, they work with you through it. Because it's not about, like, I, I'm not a fan of the don't go to bed angry. Go to bed angry with a plan to talk in the morning, because we need to have the rupture but regulate to have the repair. And I find that with the emotionally unavailable and then with the other dynamic, because if you're secure, you don't entertain emotionally unavailable because you know you deserve more.

    15. JSJay Shetty51:20

        Mm-hmm.

    16. SZSabrina Zohar51:20

        And if you don't demand it, who's going to? Versus if you're insecure and you're like, "This is all I can get. There's nothing else," and you're convincing yourself, and you're translating crumbs into a meal when you deserve the entire loaf, not just a morsel of what they're giving. And like you said, you can't love someone into changing, and that's the reality. Love isn't enough. I wish. Oh boy, I wish it. I wish all we had to do was just love somebody. But if that were the case, my mother would've changed my father. She did everything. She literally would've morphed herself into a pretzel, and he still said, "But you're not baked enough for me." Because when someone just doesn't have that, nothing I do will change that except walking away, because that's for me.

    17. JSJay Shetty51:55

        Mm-hmm.

    18. SZSabrina Zohar51:55

        And I'm not a fan of walk away no matter what. I think we're in a time where everything is, "I don't like this, so leave. I don't like that you say this, I'm gonna go. You don't say what I want, so I'm gonna leave." No, no, no, no. That's just rigidity. But what I am saying is if I'm not seeing progress and if I'm not seeing that this person has any kind of depth that we can get there, I'm not gonna continue to waste my time. It didn't work in childhood, it's not gonna work now.

    19. JSJay Shetty52:16

        Yeah. And an

16. 52:17 – 56:48

    How to Communicate Your Needs Clearly

    1. JSJay Shetty52:17

       awareness themselves without your help.

    2. SZSabrina Zohar52:20

       Right.

    3. JSJay Shetty52:20

       And you as well. I think, I think that's what you're really seeing as well that isn't rigidity is, "Oh, I'm willing to change, too."

    4. SZSabrina Zohar52:26

       Mm-hmm.

    5. JSJay Shetty52:26

       "I can see my part in this. I can see my little trauma or big trauma coming through. I can see my past coming through, and I see how that triggers that person." But then I also see, I think that's where we're missing where both people have to hold their hands up and go, "I'm accountable." I remember I came from a relationship with my mom where my birthdays were really important, and I looked forward to that because my mom always made my birthday feel really valuable. And when I met my wife, which I only discovered afterwards, was in her family, birthdays were not important. It was always about quality time no matter what day it was. So we come from two totally different worlds. And this sounds like, like a really basic thing, but they're so hardwired. And so when it was my birthday and she wouldn't make a big deal out of it, I would see that as you don't love me.

    6. SZSabrina Zohar53:17

       Mm-hmm.

    7. JSJay Shetty53:18

       And her take was like, "But we spend so much quality time together all the time. Why would I have to make a big deal on your birthday?" And it sounds like, again, it sounds so, so insignificant, but it took two things. One was me recognizing that the only reason, going back to your example, the only reason that I think my birthday is important, because that's how my mom loved me. It's not because I came up with that or I really think birthdays are that important. And at the same time for her to realize that maybe she's never thought about whether birthdays are important or not.

    8. SZSabrina Zohar53:48

       Yeah.

    9. JSJay Shetty53:49

       And maybe if her partner wants it, then maybe there's some truth in that. But she's just accepting the world she comes from. And I think we often end up in a relationship with someone else only continuing to live in a world that ma- someone else made for us.

    10. SZSabrina Zohar54:01

        Right.

    11. JSJay Shetty54:01

        And so now you're in a new world living in your old world designed by a parent or a friend or a sibling or a caretaker who you didn't even question what world they were building for you, and you're still holding onto it because it feels so familiar.

    12. SZSabrina Zohar54:17

        Your lived experience isn't everyone else's, right?

    13. JSJay Shetty54:19

        Yeah.

    14. SZSabrina Zohar54:19

        And that's what you're saying. And it's funny, birthdays mean a lot to me for the exact opposite, 'cause no one made them important for me.

    15. JSJay Shetty54:24

        Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

    16. SZSabrina Zohar54:25

        My mom was the only... Thank God I remember, I, this is just to show you, like, how little things can add up. I was nine, and this was when my dad, he would not buy us anything. He used money as a means of control. And so, uh, he would have his girlfriends that he had, and they would come and go, "Oh, your dad didn't buy you this?" And I would just cry being like, "No, my father won't give me f- m- like, anything to go buy at school. So no, he didn't buy me that." And my mom saved up money and she took me to Ross, and she said, "You can buy anything you want." And I remember going through the aisles and picking all these things, and then she was behind me putting things back 'cause she knew she couldn't afford it. But she never let me know that. And so when we got to the register and she bought me, like, a pink dress I really wanted, and I remember when we left she said, "Just don't tell your siblings I bought this for you." And I didn't understand it at the time, and now I understand what she had to go through to save up money for, like, two months. Every time he'd, my dad would give her a couple, she would put it in her pocket, because she knew I deserved something that day. And she took me to Ross. She spent $20 on a dress, but that made me feel like a million bucks. And so when I met my partner, and I would say, "This means a lot to me," when he dismissed it, that was triggering for me. And to your point, how was he gonna know? If I, I don't expect him to read my mind. I don't need him to just anticipate my needs. There's no one on the planet that's gonna do that, not even yourself. But when I communicated that and then we talked about it, now every year he makes sure it's special for me even though he doesn't care about it. But that's part of that, is that I can meet and you can meet, and we go and we talk and we converse and we share, but what's the, the real root of that is being vulnerable. And people are scared to be vulnerable, because if I'm vulnerable with you, you could reject me. And if you reject me, that's the same wound I'm running away from.

    17. JSJay Shetty56:11

        Mm-hmm.

    18. SZSabrina Zohar56:12

        But that's the key to a beautiful and healthy relationship, is you have to have the vulnerability to be able to say, "Well, this means something to me, and can I tell you why?" Because how would he know if I didn't share the story of my mom why this means so much to me? Or to your point, if you didn't tell Radhia about your mom, she would have no idea and just think, "Why is he being so dramatic?" But it's a beautiful way to let someone into your life, and that's emotional availability, is when somebody wants you to understand where they're coming from. That's them trying to welcome you in their life.

    19. JSJay Shetty56:39

        Yeah.

    20. SZSabrina Zohar56:39

        Boundaries and communication don't keep them out. They're actually trying to keep you in their life, and we have to be able to read that and understand other people's lived experience.

    21. JSJay Shetty56:47

        I'm

17. 56:48 – 58:54

    Why Relationships Must Support Growth

    1. JSJay Shetty56:48

       so, I'm so thankful that you've done so much work, because I'm just listening to you going, wow, like, there's...There's so much depth in everything you're saying, and I can see now that it comes from such a deep lived experience. And also not letting that become your paintbrush for the future, but almost washing the paintbrush before you start painting. That's kinda like the feeling. It's like if you only paint with the paintbrush that is your past, you only have those colors to paint with, and then it's limited. And when I'm listening to you and thinking about my own experience as well, I'm thinking, "Yeah, we're just washing that paintbrush off," choosing the colors you wanna choose. Uh-

    2. SZSabrina Zohar57:26

       You guys wouldn't ... I would imagine you would not be this far in your marriage if that didn't come with tons of conversations, hard conversations. I've had conversations with Ryan where I'm like, "Is this it?" Like, "Are we ... Did we get to the end of the road?" And you're, "No, no we didn't. Keep going." But it's necessary because I ... For me, if we're not growing and evolving, what's the point?

    3. JSJay Shetty57:45

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SZSabrina Zohar57:46

       What is the point? What's the point of both of us having a podcast if we're not helping people grow? You can change. You can evolve. But God damn, you gotta do some work, and you have got to commit. What's the difference between me, you, and anybody that's listening? The choices we make.

    5. JSJay Shetty57:58

       Mm-hmm.

    6. SZSabrina Zohar57:58

       That is the only difference. I came from nothing. You came from ... We both come from nothing. No one had a silver spoon in their hand, "Okay, now go off in the world." But the choices we make are what's gonna change that, and you can either have the life you want, or you can live the life you have.

    7. JSJay Shetty58:11

       Mm.

    8. SZSabrina Zohar58:11

       You get to choose, and it is a choice. It's the same with, "I can't move on from them. I ... They're the love of my life. I don't know how." No, you're choosing to stay stuck. Own that, and then you can do ... 'Cause when you take radical accountability of your life, and I had to do that. Now, I'm not saying you take accountability of everything that happens in your life, right? If someone treats you poorly, it's not about, "Oh, there's something wrong with me." But it's about saying, "But what did I allow?" Because you start to look. I want you to look, anybody that's listening, look at your friends, look at your family, look at your partners, look at everyone in your life. And if you don't like any of them, that starts and stops with you because you're allowing them in your life. They didn't force their way in there, and now you get to choose who stays.

    9. JSJay Shetty58:47

       Hm. And it starts there, and that's a great reflection. Everyone can do that right now and get really, really clear on that. Do you b-

18. 58:54 – 1:01:20

    Timing Is Not a Reason to Hold On

    1. JSJay Shetty58:54

       Sabrina, do you believe in right person, wrong time?

    2. SZSabrina Zohar58:56

       I don't. I think what makes someone right is that they're in your life at the right time. Because for me, I believe that there are people in your life that maybe you met them at a time that didn't work for you, but I don't believe in holding onto people just because of timing. Now, I think timing is incredibly important. I think timing and proximity mean way more than love because if I'm not at the right place at the right time, it's gonna be hard. But I don't believe in holding onto people. If they're right for you, they'll come back organically and naturally, but you don't need to hold onto it.

    3. JSJay Shetty59:23

       Hm.

    4. SZSabrina Zohar59:23

       And I think when we say that, we grip on and say, "But that's the person for me," and then you miss out on the, all the doors that are opening 'cause you're staring at the window that's clo- that's closed.

    5. JSJay Shetty59:33

       I'm with you on that. Um, I, I don't challenge you either, right? I just think, like, you can meet someone that you like a lot at the wrong time.

    6. SZSabrina Zohar59:40

       100%.

    7. JSJay Shetty59:40

       But that, that doesn't, that's the definition of they're not the right [laughs] person. And so it's not that you won't meet someone who's amazing, or you're in a bad point in your life, or the opposite, where you're in a great point in your life, ready for the most amazing person, and they're not ready, and that doesn't make them the right person. And like you said, it doesn't mean they can't be the right person one day. But yeah, it isn't, it isn't the thing right now. But I think sometimes we tell these things to ourself 'cause they make us feel special and better and ...

    8. SZSabrina Zohar1:00:06

       We love bumper sticker slogans.

    9. JSJay Shetty1:00:08

       Yeah.

    10. SZSabrina Zohar1:00:08

        Our brain loves them. That's why if they like you, you'll know. If not, you'll be confused. No, dating's really confusing. I don't know who said that, right? Dating is really weird. I ... There's a lot of confusion. If he wanted to, he would. We already went over that. Same, right person, wrong time. Because what happens is when you chalk people up to 140 characters or less, you just slap a bumper sticker and call it a day, but we are such nuanced creatures. We are so complex. We can't be chalked up to just a saying because then that's insinuating all of us are the same, and I'm fairly certain a lot of us are different.

    11. JSJay Shetty1:00:36

        Yeah.

    12. SZSabrina Zohar1:00:36

        And so I think what makes somebody that they're right, if I had met Ryan when his sister passed, we would never have been together. Now, that doesn't mean that in the past, like, I'm sure you and I have gone on probably dates that, that are not your wife, not your partner, that you're like, "Man, that was amazing."

    13. JSJay Shetty1:00:49

        Mm-hmm.

    14. SZSabrina Zohar1:00:49

        That doesn't discredit the connection that you have, and that doesn't mean that your partner is not. It's a different connection, and we have to be okay to know that you're right. If this person's not for me ... And not to mention, what makes us want them even more is that usually they don't want us.

    15. JSJay Shetty1:01:03

        Mm.

    16. SZSabrina Zohar1:01:03

        Because that is going to go into, "I have to prove it. Let me earn it. I can get them." And we go right back into the wounds instead of saying, "Thank you so much. I'm gonna move on with my life." When I did, I held onto a guy. I met my partner four months later after I let him go 'cause I said, "I ... You, right person, wrong time. You're just not for me." And I'm glad I didn't.

    17. JSJay Shetty1:01:19

        Yeah.

19. 1:01:20 – 1:14:30

    Texting Etiquette in Modern Dating

    1. JSJay Shetty1:01:20

       Talking about dating being confusing, I wanna talk about texting-

    2. SZSabrina Zohar1:01:24

       Ugh

    3. JSJay Shetty1:01:24

       ... in dating.

    4. SZSabrina Zohar1:01:25

       Like-

    5. JSJay Shetty1:01:25

       Because this is ... You're a pro at this.

    6. SZSabrina Zohar1:01:27

       It's my thing.

    7. JSJay Shetty1:01:27

       Not the techniques to-

    8. SZSabrina Zohar1:01:29

       No

    9. JSJay Shetty1:01:29

       ... seduce people or get people, but the reality of being really clear about it. So texting etiquette when dating, I have a few questions for you.

    10. SZSabrina Zohar1:01:35

        Talk to me.

    11. JSJay Shetty1:01:36

        If you've only been out with someone one time, is it okay to ghost?

    12. SZSabrina Zohar1:01:42

        It's not my favorite thing to ghost, but I would say we have to depersonalize it. If you've been out with this person once, nobody owes anything. Now, I know people are gonna scream and say, "But it's your time, and it's this." I would love it if you tell somebody, "Hey, I'm not interested." But I've seen the other side of the coin. I've seen people lose their marbles. I've seen people attack. I've had men show up at my house because they somehow figured out where I lived and were upset that I didn't wanna see them again. So I would say this: it would be nice if you said that you don't wanna see somebody, but if it doesn't happen, don't take it personal. Welcome to dating.

    13. JSJay Shetty1:02:12

        Mm-hmm. Okay. They tell you they don't like texting during the day because they're busy at work, but you still get anxious when you don't hear from them. How does someone push through that?

    14. SZSabrina Zohar1:02:23

        Oh, that's, that's our nervous system. That has nothing to do with them. That person clearly communicated. They told you they don't wanna text. They let you know that they have a life, and they're doing other things, and not everybody ... W- I am so tired of the saying, "We all have our phone in our hands. It takes 10 seconds." First of all, it's never just one text. Second of all, that requires bandwidth. I could be on social media scrolling and watching dog videos, which I love to do, all day, and I have 25 text messages. I don't have the bandwidth. I will deal with you later. That's not an, an ... That doesn't mean that I'm not interested in you. That doesn't mean I don't like you. But what happens is we go into black and white thinking. If they do this, it's good. If they do this, it's bad. And what we're trying to do is understand the gray.I think if you're getting anxious because somebody hasn't texted you back, we need to look at the state and the story that you're in, as opposed to that they're the problem. Because how else are they showing up?

    15. JSJay Shetty1:03:07

        Great take. Okay, I like this one. You're always the one starting the conversation. Is that a sign you care more or just different communication styles?

    16. SZSabrina Zohar1:03:15

        That might be a sign that you're not giving them space to step in.

    17. JSJay Shetty1:03:18

        Mm.

    18. SZSabrina Zohar1:03:18

        I've seen that often. Now, if you give the space and you don't hear from this person, you have your answer right there. You were carrying this along. But oftentimes, I've had plenty of men contact me and say, "This girl texts me every single morning. I don't even get a chance to reach out to her." Distance creates desire. It's okay to let that go for a day, and if you can't sit still, that's what we need to work on, not the texting etiquette.

    19. JSJay Shetty1:03:38

        Someone says they're a bad texter. Does someone's texting behavior actually indicate their interest in you?

    20. SZSabrina Zohar1:03:44

        To a certain extent. I think if we see what... Where it starts to show is when they come in at 100. My mom always says, "Where else are you gonna go?" When they come in texting every day, calling you all the time. Super, super, super communicative, and then you get the crickets and the go, well, then yes, there's a shift in behavior. Something is up. But intrinsically, instinctually, is their texting behavior an, a gauge of their interest? Absolutely not. My partner texts me every other day just to confirm plans. We... Or a, "Hi, hope you have a great day. Talk to you later." We did not engage. We're three years later, and here we are. I don't need to text him every day 'cause we have a beautiful relationship. So we need to start to look at, what else is there?

    21. JSJay Shetty1:04:20

        Yeah.

    22. SZSabrina Zohar1:04:20

        And if all you have is texting, you don't have a relationship.

    23. JSJay Shetty1:04:23

        Yeah. My wife never messages me back.

    24. SZSabrina Zohar1:04:25

        Does she?

    25. JSJay Shetty1:04:26

        Till this day. I have to call her. She's a call person. If I call her, she'll pick up immediately.

    26. SZSabrina Zohar1:04:30

        Same with Ryan.

    27. JSJay Shetty1:04:31

        She's happy to talk. If I text her, I will be waiting-

    28. SZSabrina Zohar1:04:34

        Yeah

    29. JSJay Shetty1:04:34

        ... for hours and hours and hours, and I'm just aware of that at this point. And she's like, "Yeah, just call me." She goes, "I'm... I'll, I'll pick up the phone. If I see your name, I'll pick up the phone. But if you're messaging me..." She's the same. She's like... And it was so funny. She sent me a screenshot of some conversation she was having the other day, [laughs] and I said, "It's the 733 unread messages [laughs] from me." Like, I was like, I just noticed that at the top, and I was cracking up, and she was cracking up. But it's just, the, it's just, yeah, it's like that's how she likes to c- And she's told me that many times.

    30. SZSabrina Zohar1:05:01

        Yeah.
20. 1:14:30 – 1:20:32

    Why Real Change Takes Time and Practice

    1. JSJay Shetty1:14:30

       You've brought up bandwidth so many times in this conversation, and capacity, and I think it's such an interesting point because our black-and-white thinking goes to, "If they don't wanna do this for me, that means they don't love me enough or don't care, care about me enough." And what you're saying is someone could care or could love or could have certain feelings, but they may not have the bandwidth, whether that's emotional capacity or time or energy or whatever it may be. But our mind goes toWell, no, that's a sign that you don't love me because the right person would have the bandwidth, which in effect is true. The right person will have the bandwidth or-

    2. SZSabrina Zohar1:15:05

       The right person will, for sure, but it doesn't mean that they don't care about you, and that's the nuance. I think what I really learned what healing was, healing doesn't mean you get rid of the emotions. Healing doesn't mean that you just never feel sad or anxious or anything. What it means is that you learn to live with it. You expand that window of tolerance so you have the capacity to handle it. So it's not every single time there's an inconvenience you're getting ... Either you're freaking out or you're crying or you're shutting down. It's like, okay, well then that ... We don't have the, the emotional capacity to be able to hold things, but that's also part of holding two conflicting thoughts. I can miss someone and also know they're not right for me. I can think you're amazing and also say, "This isn't the right relationship for me." I can say that you're limited and also say, "But I think that we can make it through." If we can hold the two conflicting thoughts, then what we're actually doing is we're turning our prefrontal cortex on. And oftentimes in dating, when we go from X equals Y equals Z, that's because your brain is trying to actually close the loop by a shortcut. And it's like I love neuroscience. I think it's fascinating. The more we repeat something, the deeper those neural pathways become, and I found out something fascinating. It takes 300 repetitions for your body to remember a move. So I need to do squats 300 times-

    3. JSJay Shetty1:16:08

       Mm

    4. SZSabrina Zohar1:16:08

       ... for my body to go, "Okay, this is what I have to do." It takes 3,000 repetitions to create a new neural pathway that you would go down organically.

    5. JSJay Shetty1:16:15

       Whoa, I didn't know that.

    6. SZSabrina Zohar1:16:16

       That's a lot.

    7. JSJay Shetty1:16:17

       That's cool.

    8. SZSabrina Zohar1:16:18

       So let this be 2,999 left to go of, "I deserve, I'm worthy, I believe in myself," even if you don't. But we gotta start somewhere by creating these new neural pathways to be able to hold that space and capacity. Otherwise, you're just gonna keep going this means this, and that myopic black and white. The other fun fact I learned, 'cause-

    9. JSJay Shetty1:16:38

       That's so good

    10. SZSabrina Zohar1:16:38

        ... I love neuroscience. The other fun fact I learned is when we get triggered or dysregulated, your amygdala takes about 10 milliseconds to turn on. It's almost instant. Your prefrontal cortex takes 10 times longer, so 235 milliseconds to turn on into the seconds. That's why people will go straight to, "They don't like me. They don't want me. They don't do this." To your point, for us to turn the prefrontal cortex on and go, "What are my facts? Can I challenge this?" That requires a lot of work.

    11. JSJay Shetty1:17:03

        Mm.

    12. SZSabrina Zohar1:17:03

        So most people go, "No, energy save. This happened. This means this." Your brain is a predictive machine. It wants to keep you safe. It's not trying to help you grow. We have to rig the system.

    13. JSJay Shetty1:17:12

        Yeah. Wow, I love those. I've never heard either of those and that's, that's so helpful. And only a need to practice more repetition. And it's interesting you said that it's ... You said you need 3,000 neural repetitions, and I was thinking 3,000 means if you did something once a day per year, that would take 10 years to change. And that's why it makes sense that so many real changes take so much longer than like 30 days and 90 days, and it's like ... Unless, unless you were saying it to yourself 1,000 times a day, which is-

    14. SZSabrina Zohar1:17:41

        Right

    15. JSJay Shetty1:17:42

        ... unlikely.

    16. SZSabrina Zohar1:17:43

        And it's unlikely you'll believe it 'cause your nervous system-

    17. JSJay Shetty1:17:45

        Totally

    18. SZSabrina Zohar1:17:45

        ... is like, "You're gaslighting me. That's not real, so we have to push through that." Like, it's very uncomfortable doing the work. That's why most people don't wanna do it.

    19. JSJay Shetty1:17:51

        Mm.

    20. SZSabrina Zohar1:17:51

        But if you're here because you are, just know that there are other people that are, but you don't need to have the ... You don't need to have the bandwidth and capacity if somebody isn't.

    21. JSJay Shetty1:17:59

        Yeah. Yeah. All right, last scenario before we do a little rapid fire. So the last scenario is you're dating someone who avoids conflict or shuts down when things get tough. How do you determine whether that's workable or a long-term incompatibility?

    22. SZSabrina Zohar1:18:13

        It's having the conversation with them of what are they gonna do about it. That's the really reality, because if somebody is consistently shutting down, they don't have that ... They're, there's, they're rupture but there's no repair, well, then we have to say, and first of all, and see do they h- take accountability of that? Are they trying to do anything about that? Or are they saying, "Well, that's who I am and this is it"? Because you can absolutely work through that. Maybe they didn't ... Maybe they learned it in childhood that confrontation means that they're bad, and so they shut down. And maybe that means that ... So that means that they need to go to therapy. They need to understand what came up for them. They have to learn how to be present. I think what we need to learn is we have to look and see, if I show up as me, how are they showing up as them, and does that work for me? Because for a lot of people, they're used to being abandoned. They're used to having people go, "Well, you don't do what I want, and I'm out." But maybe they're not used to someone that says, "Well, I'm here by your side, and if you're willing to do the work, I'll walk the journey with you." And I think that's a really beautiful place to be in growth and expansion, but two people have to be doing that. And if one person is gonna gaslight, deflect, shut down, walk out, do this, and go, "Well, no, I'm not gonna talk about it," I don't know what you're hoping is gonna change.

    23. JSJay Shetty1:19:14

        Yeah. It's so interesting how we just forget the word mutual. [laughs] Like, it, it exists for a reason. It's like all good relationships are mutual.

    24. SZSabrina Zohar1:19:24

        Yeah.

    25. JSJay Shetty1:19:24

        We have mutual understanding. We have mutual respect. We have mutual awareness. The word mutual makes everything so simple, and whenever I'm trying to figure out whether I should invest in a relationship with someone or engage with it or where we stand, it's just whether it's mutual or not. And that, over time, is much more evident clearly. It, it may not be in the beginning, for sure, but over time you get really clear on whether there's a mutual level of desire to invest and connect and build.

    26. SZSabrina Zohar1:19:53

        That's why as you do the work, your circle gets smaller, 'cause you start to realize you're here 'cause I benefit. You're here 'cause you need something. You're here 'cause you're bored. You're here for whatever the reasons are.

    27. JSJay Shetty1:20:02

        Yeah. Mm.

    28. SZSabrina Zohar1:20:02

        And that's why grief is so large, because if I don't grieve the ending of things, then I'm not going to be able to also create new.

    29. JSJay Shetty1:20:09

        Mm.

    30. SZSabrina Zohar1:20:09

        If we just constantly try to hold onto somebody all of our lives and say, "I'm only okay if I have them," you're never gonna actually be able to grow anything else because you're keeping just that plot of land and even if the flowers are dying. I always use the example, if a house burns down, you can't rebuild it with the ashes. You have to be the phoenix that rises and rebuild it with something more solid and more concrete, and it's okay to let it come crashing down. You get to choose.
21. 1:20:32 – 1:30:04

    Dating Rapid Fire

    1. JSJay Shetty1:20:32

       we're gonna end with this rapid fire.

    2. SZSabrina Zohar1:20:34

       Okay.

    3. JSJay Shetty1:20:34

       So these have to be answered in one sentence maximum. These are a list of some popular cliches, some of which you've mentioned already, but we'll do them again, some of them.

    4. SZSabrina Zohar1:20:42

       Okay.

    5. JSJay Shetty1:20:42

       And so I want your first response and take to these.

    6. SZSabrina Zohar1:20:46

       Okay.

    7. JSJay Shetty1:20:46

       Do you believe if he wanted to, he would?

    8. SZSabrina Zohar1:20:48

       God, I hate that saying. It is myopic. It is not understanding human, uh, uh, relationships, and it is keeping people single longer than they need to be. Want and do are two different parts of the brain. Instead of projecting onto them, because I'll say this, if you wanted to, you would move on, and you're not, so it takes two.

    9. JSJay Shetty1:21:04

       Mm.Okay, uh, second cliche. So do you agree with there's no good men out there?

    10. SZSabrina Zohar1:21:12

        That is the salience network at play. And the salience network, if I went outside and looked for a green car, all I'm gonna see is that. If you don't believe that there are good men, then I could say there's also not good women or not good theys. There are amazing people, but if you're not finding them, then we need to start to change the state, the story, and the strategy so that you can have different people enter your life, and you can allow different people in your life.

    11. JSJay Shetty1:21:30

        Agree. 100% agree. The frequency illusion is one of my favorite ideas in how the brain works, and it's fascinating to me how we think it's positive and negative thinking, and it's just noticing. It's just the ability to notice, and if you only think there's bad men out there, you will notice every bad guy out there, and you will forget, because your brain has selective attention and can only focus on a few things at the same time, and it will ignore the person who opened the door. It will ignore the person who said thank you. It'll ignore the person who smiled because you're focused on all the bad guys out there or bad people. Okay, agree or disagree, when you know, you know.

    12. SZSabrina Zohar1:22:09

        I will disagree. And the only reason I say that is I think for some people, 100% when they know. And for other people, it's a bit longer of a journey because some people need time to open up, and it might take a minute for you to be able to explore that. But I think when you know that you don't want that, please listen to that, and when you know that you do, please listen to it, but I don't necessarily think everyone has the same journey.

    13. JSJay Shetty1:22:27

        Agree or disagree, once a cheater, always a cheater.

    14. SZSabrina Zohar1:22:30

        Completely disagree. I think people can grow and evolve. I think once a cheater, if you don't take accountability, you will continue to cheat because we need to understand what led you to do that to begin with.

    15. JSJay Shetty1:22:38

        Yeah, and I think so much of that is also you as the individual. Like, if you believe that someone's a cheater and will always be a cheater and you can't get over that, then that relationship naturally won't work. And you're fully entitled to that because you've been through it, and you've been through the pain and the hurt, and so you don't need to lie to yourself. I think that's the problem with that.

    16. SZSabrina Zohar1:22:58

        Yeah.

    17. JSJay Shetty1:22:58

        That's where that becomes a challenge, where you start saying to yourself, "That's how I really feel. Like, I don't think I'll ever trust this person again, but I think the right thing to do is give them another chance." And then that gets complicated.

    18. SZSabrina Zohar1:23:10

        If you're gonna give somebody another chance after they cheated on you, you have got to make the commitment that you're gonna move on. Because it's not fair to hold it over their head. Every time they do something, you don't believe them. You're ch- you're checking their phone. You're seeing where their location is. If you don't have trust in your relationship, then that's okay. If they broke that trust, you don't have to give it back.

    19. JSJay Shetty1:23:27

        100%, and it-

    20. SZSabrina Zohar1:23:27

        But if you're making the choice to stay in the commitment, then please make the choice together that you're staying in the commitment.

    21. JSJay Shetty1:23:32

        Yeah, and I think that's the challenge for that person because you're so conflicted.

    22. SZSabrina Zohar1:23:35

        100%.

    23. JSJay Shetty1:23:36

        It's so hard to go through infidelity because you're thinking, "Well, I do love them, and I do believe them, and I, and I know who they are." And then at the same time, there's this massive, you know, lack of loyalty and, you know, a breaking of your trust and everything else that comes with it. It's, it's, it's hard to recommit, but yes, you're right. If you are going to, then go all in. Agree or disagree, men are intimidated by strong women.

    24. SZSabrina Zohar1:24:03

        I will disagree. I think there are some men that are, and then there are men like my partner that find strong women to be sexy because he was raised by them. So I think we need to stop keeping it as if everybody is one thing and start to understand that, uh, one person's lived experience is not everybody else's.

    25. JSJay Shetty1:24:17

        Mm-hmm. Okay, couple more. Agree or disagree, if it's not a hell yes, it's a no.

    26. SZSabrina Zohar1:24:23

        Again, I disagree because it's back to it has to be good or this. I'll be honest, it took me six months to be a yes with my partner, and he was a hell yes month one. It's okay to take time. What I will say is if it doesn't get to a hell yes, then please take it as a no.

    27. JSJay Shetty1:24:37

        Hmm. Okay, agree or disagree, you'll meet someone when you stop looking.

    28. SZSabrina Zohar1:24:41

        That I actually will agree, and here's what I mean by that.

    29. JSJay Shetty1:24:43

        Interesting. I didn't think you were gonna go there.

    30. SZSabrina Zohar1:24:44

        Yeah.

Episode duration: 1:30:04