The #1 Misconception About Raising “Successful” Kids

1. 0:00 – 1:42

   Intro

   1. JSJay Shetty0:00

      One of my favorite things about what you do is using data to bust myths

   2. EOEmily Oster0:04

      Manicures and pedicures are safe during pregnancy.

   3. JSJay Shetty0:06

      Is sex okay? Can I exercise? Can you eat spicy food? Can you drink wine?

   4. JSJay Shetty0:11

      We created a debunking myths game.

   5. EOEmily Oster0:13

      Oh, great.

   6. JSJay Shetty0:14

      Pregnant women shouldn't drink coffee.

   7. EOEmily Oster0:16

      That is a [beep]

   8. JSJay Shetty0:17

      You can't eat sushi while pregnant.

   9. EOEmily Oster0:19

      Also [beep]

   10. JSJay Shetty0:20

       Natural birth is better.

   11. EOEmily Oster0:22

       I hate the phrase natural birth.

   12. JSJay Shetty0:23

       Breast milk-

   13. EOEmily Oster0:24

       Mm-hmm

   14. JSJay Shetty0:24

       ... or formula?

   15. EOEmily Oster0:25

       People will tell you breastfeeding's free. It's like, "I'm sorry, does my time have no value?" [dramatic music]

   16. JSJay Shetty0:32

       Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. And today's topic is one that you are always asking for, and today's guest is someone that has been in high demand, so I'm so excited she's here. Parenting has never come with more information or potentially more anxiety. And today we're joined by bestselling author and economist Emily Oster, whose books Expecting Better and Cribsheet sparked a global conversation about what the data actually says. If you've ever wondered whether all this advice is helping or just making parenting more complicated, this is the conversation we've all been waiting for. Emily Oster, welcome to On Purpose.

   17. EOEmily Oster1:14

       Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

   18. JSJay Shetty1:16

       This is such an important subject matter that I feel deserves to have time, energy, effort put into. It's gonna transform our lives, the lives of the children you love the most, and I'm so grateful that you've dedicated so much of your life to doing this work so impactfully.

   19. EOEmily Oster1:33

       No, I'm so delighted to be here. I mean, I think parenting is hard, but also incredibly fun, and I feel really lucky to get to be part of people's journey even, even a little bit.

2. 1:42 – 3:50

   Why Does Parenting Feel Harder Today?

   1. JSJay Shetty1:42

      Absolutely. We've, we've probably never had this much data on parenting.

   2. EOEmily Oster1:47

      That's right.

   3. JSJay Shetty1:47

      Has that made parenting better, or are we still just overwhelmed?

   4. EOEmily Oster1:52

      I think ye- yes and no. I don't think there's a simple answer to that question. There are clearly places where we have gotten data, and we can talk about specific examples where we've learned, you know, something from the data that has improved survival or the experience of parenting or something that makes everyone happier, and I think there are really good examples of that in, in the evidence. It is also true that living in an environment where one is constantly fed, you know, the data says, the data says, the data says, or where people are constantly looking for, you know, well, what is the evidence that's gonna tell me that I'm doing this right? I think that's actually quite stressful and sometimes makes parenting much harder. So some of the time I wish I could sort of help people think more about, you know, here are the pieces of data that are gonna kinda help, help you craft your approach, and here is the stuff that really it doesn't matter what you do and stop trying to look for the right answer 'cause anything is fine. [laughs]

   5. JSJay Shetty2:50

      Data's really useful, but it is really overwhelming. How do you approach it differently in a way that's actually helping people?

   6. EOEmily Oster2:55

      Yeah, so I think there's really two sort of core pieces of what I'm trying to do for people. So one is trying to help them understand which of the pieces of data they're seeing are real and which are not. So there's a lot of confusion of correlation and causation. You know, people told, "Well, if you do this for your kid, they'll be better in this way," but if you dive into the data, you find that link is not-

   7. JSJay Shetty3:18

      Oh, no

   8. EOEmily Oster3:19

      ... not causal. And then the second piece is trying to help people prioritize and say, you know, here are some things that are really important, and then here are some things which even if they mattered a little bit, they can't matter a lot. And so recognizing that parents have a limited capacity, that we all have a limited capacity to focus on a million different things at once. Our goal should be to figure out, you know, what really matters and then what really matters enough that it should be sort of top priority, and then we kinda do the pieces that we, that we can do in the

3. 3:50 – 4:52

   What the Data Really Says About Parenting

   1. EOEmily Oster3:50

      constraints that we have.

   2. JSJay Shetty3:51

      What, what's the most shocking piece of data that you've come across looking at parenting research that really struck you?

   3. EOEmily Oster3:57

      So when I was working on Expecting Better, uh, I... One of the things I looked at was bed rest, um, which, you know, is actually s- prescribed to a fairly large share of people for a lot of different complications. So people are just told, you know... And, and you can sort of see logically where that might, you might feel like, well, if you're at risk of preterm birth, maybe if you just lay down, like, I don't know, the baby will stay in or, like there's some kind of logic that connects there. But when you actually look at the data, uh, there's almost no condition for which bed rest is helpful, and many conditions for which it's... in many ways in which it's actually harmful. This is something where it's so obvious in the data that what we're doing is not the right thing, and it was one of the things that galvanized me to think, okay, we actually really need to show people what the evidence says so they can make better choices.

   4. JSJay Shetty4:46

      Absolutely. I wanna talk about today, like, lots of different kind of phases of the journey of-

   5. EOEmily Oster4:50

      Yeah

   6. JSJay Shetty4:51

      ... parenting, and I

4. 4:52 – 7:32

   Don’t Trust This Fertility Advice!

   1. JSJay Shetty4:52

      wanted to start with getting pregnant. From what I'm hearing from people who are trying to get pregnant, it's all about thinking, like, getting everything right, having some control. What's your take on how much we can control when you're trying to get pregnant?

   2. EOEmily Oster5:05

      It's a lot more limited than people think. Um, you know, people g- getting pregnant is very stressful for many people, and particularly in an environment where, you know, the, the environment I think a lot of my readers come in, where you've waited a l- like a long... You're, you're a little older, which does... You know, we know fertility declines with age. It doesn't drop off a cliff, but it goes down. And also people have, like, waited and made a lot of investments and thought, you know, "Okay, this is the right time in my life," and, like, now they wanna be pregnant now. It's like, "I waited, I decided the right month, like, this is my month." And then it, like, doesn't happen that month and you're like, "Wait, but this was my month." And so I think there's a, there's a kind of tension that, that comes with that, and that unfortunately makes people who are trying to get pregnant quite vulnerable to being told all kinds of stuff that they could do that is not based on evidence, but often costs quite a lot of money to improve their chances.

   3. JSJay Shetty5:56

      For example?

   4. EOEmily Oster5:57

      Buy these really expensive prenatal vitamins. For me, that's, like, the most... You know, it is important to take a prenatal vitamin. The-The one at CVS that costs, you know, s- 10 cents a pill is fine. It has the things that you need. People are buying these prenatal vitamins that cost them, you know, $150 a month and say, you know, "This is... Don't you wanna give your baby the best start with the best..." It's like, vitamins are all the same. You know, you don't need to spend. So that's, like, just one sort of small example, and so much of that marketing is preying on this feeling of like, "Well, I gotta get this right, I gotta get this right." The reality is when you think about, you know, what, what matters for getting pregnant, there's a f- there's a few things. So one is having sex at the right time. So it's pretty clear there's only a small number of days in the cycle where you can get pregnant, and so some cycle tracking and knowing when you're ovulating is important. And then you, you need sperm that is working. So [laughs] I think the o- the piece of this that maybe I think people are almost under-investing in is we spend so much time with women thinking about all the things that, that we need to do, and it is true that that is half of the equation, but you also need good sperm. Uh, and I actually think we're probably under-investing in having men do some, like, preconception sperm testing. It's not that hard to do, not really very hard at all, and there are a bunch of things that men can do to improve their quality of the sperm if it turns out you have a sperm issue. So if people said to me like, "What should I do?" I would say, "Track your cycle so you can figure out when you're ovulating. Make sure you have sex at the right time, and get your partner's sperm tested, and then, you know, don't binge drink and quit smoking."

   5. JSJay Shetty7:27

      [laughs]

   6. EOEmily Oster7:27

      That's kind of it.

   7. JSJay Shetty7:28

      [laughs] Those are the things within your control.

   8. EOEmily Oster7:30

      Those are the main things within your control.

5. 7:32 – 9:23

   What Affects Sperm Health

   1. JSJay Shetty7:32

      Yeah.

   2. EOEmily Oster7:32

      Yeah.

   3. JSJay Shetty7:32

      And what were some of the recommendations for men who wanted to improve their sperm count or improve their sperm quality as well?

   4. EOEmily Oster7:38

      So a lot of it is about s- there's sort of like a category of substances. So, um, so smoking cigarettes or marijuana, uh, heavy drinking, these are all known to affect sperm mobility. You need enough of them. They need to be good at swimming. They need to have the right shape. Uh, and smoking and drinking affect all of those parameters. The other thing is heat. So, uh, sperm don't like to be hot. Testicles don't make good sperm when they're hot, and so, uh, sometimes peop- people keep their testicles too hot. If you're doing a lot of hot tub or a lot of sauna, or you're wearing, like, very tight underwear, that can affect sperm count. So sometimes loosening up the, the underwear, quitting the sauna can be helpful.

   5. JSJay Shetty8:20

      I like how you've already simplified it to a few things that we can control.

   6. EOEmily Oster8:23

      I think that's, that's both very helpful and often for many people very frustrating.

   7. JSJay Shetty8:27

      Oh, tell me about it.

   8. EOEmily Oster8:27

      Because actually, you know, I think the way... If you wanna get this done, you wanna be doing something about it every day. Like, that's, a- at least for many of the people, like for, for myself when I was in this position, like, like we were trying to get pregnant, I wanted to be investing, you know? [laughs] Like every day I want something to do that's gonna move me forward. And the, the advice of sort of like, well, okay, if as long as you've done these things, you pretty much just like it's just a, a dice roll. Like, you know, if you get it exactly right, maybe there's a 30% chance in a given month that you will get pregnant, and you get another try the, the next month, and that's sort of all there is. I think that can feel like, well, I want it to be... Like, but what can I do? And I think that is where we get into people feeling willing to do a variety of other things that feel more like investment. I'll often tell people, like, you can track. You know, you c- you wanna like track your cycle, like set yourself up a spreadsheet, like enter something in an app every day if that's the thing that, you know, makes you feel like you're moving, you're moving forward.

6. 9:23 – 11:47

   Lifestyle Habits That Affect Fertility

   1. JSJay Shetty9:23

      What are some of the mistakes people can make during pregnancy that have post-pregnancy complications?

   2. EOEmily Oster9:29

      So there are certainly some behaviors during pregnancy that have, you know, potential very long-term impacts. So you binge drinking, uh, heavy alcohol consumption during pregnancy, smoking cigarettes during pregnancy, also, you know, not good. And there, of course, are some medications that are very counterindicated during pregnancy. Those are kind of the, the big, like, behavioral issues that we would point to in terms of contributing to birth defects. I get an awful lot of questions from people that are worry, very, very worried about extremely unlikely exposures or very minimal concerns. And I think the reality is there are some of these big concerns, but there isn't a bunch of other stuff that you shouldn't be doing that matters a tremendous amount. There just isn't.

   3. JSJay Shetty10:14

      And there is research, we're just saying that the research doesn't show anything having that big a... Like, we have studied these things deeply enough and looked at them.

   4. EOEmily Oster10:22

      Yes. And, and of course w- we can always do more research. Um, but I would say there's a sort of a couple of pieces how you might think about evidence in that case. So one is, you know, there are places where we've studied this, and we can see, you know, there's no correlation. In some of those cases, you say, "Well, what if there's a very tiny effect?" You know, we don't have an infinite amount of data. And I'd say, like yeah, there are almost anything you could say, well, couldn't there be a very tiny effect? But those effects are gonna be so tiny that we probably shouldn't care about them. They are in the rounding error of everything else that, that you're gonna do. And so, so in some sense, getting back to something I said at the beginning, I think a lot of this is about thinking about prioritizing and understanding that we want to make choices about things that are important and not obsess about every tiny thing, even if, you know, maybe doing this one thing could on average cost your kid .000001 IQ points. Like, that's not important.

   5. JSJay Shetty11:16

      Mm-hmm.

   6. EOEmily Oster11:16

      Like, you shouldn't be worried about that.

   7. JSJay Shetty11:18

      Yeah, yeah.

   8. EOEmily Oster11:18

      Um, so I think that's one, it's kind of o- one reason we don't know this. And then there are many things where just mechanistically it's impossible.

   9. JSJay Shetty11:25

      Yeah.

   10. EOEmily Oster11:25

       You know, the other day somebody asked me, you know, "My lawn was treated with pesticides, and then I went outside and I touched it. I, I washed my hands really carefully, but now I'm really worried." There is no mechanism whereby touching a lawn even recently treated with pesticides and then washing your hands would actually impact your pregnancy. Like, literally no mechanism. And so it's not an interesting thing to study, but it is impossible-

   11. JSJay Shetty11:46

       Yeah

   12. EOEmily Oster11:46

       ... that that matters.

   13. JSJay Shetty11:46

       Yeah,

7. 11:47 – 14:23

   Are Antidepressants Safe During Pregnancy?

   1. JSJay Shetty11:47

      yeah. What, what's a study that hasn't been done that you would love to see happen?

   2. EOEmily Oster11:50

      There are almost an infinite number of things-

   3. JSJay Shetty11:52

      Oh, wow

   4. EOEmily Oster11:52

      ... like that. I mean, I think what-

   5. JSJay Shetty11:54

      What would be your top three?

   6. EOEmily Oster11:55

      One I would really, really like to see is a large randomized trial about SSRIs. So, um, so a lot of women come into pregnancy, uh, using antidepressants. Um, antidepressants are really im- important for a lot of people's daily functioning.Our evidence on the safety of antidepressants a little more complicated, so there are some evidence suggesting they may, uh, raise the risk of postpartum hemorrhage. So not much in the direction of, of affecting the baby, but some things about health. And just in general, that evidence isn't perfect. We don't have a randomized... We don't have, like, large randomized trials. I would like to see large randomized trials because I think many people are avoiding these medications because they are worried about the quality of the evidence, but they are avoiding them when they would be very helpful. And I suspect that those trials would give us a much better platform from which to make decisions about this thing where there is just a very clear trade-off between some potential risk we don't know that much about and the very real benefits. So SSRI trial is what I'd like.

   7. JSJay Shetty12:57

      That, that would be so fascinating, I feel-

   8. EOEmily Oster12:59

      Yes

   9. JSJay Shetty12:59

      ... because with the amount of rise in people needing mental health medications, antidepressants, whatever it may be in that space, only going up, knowing how that really correlates-

   10. EOEmily Oster13:09

       Yeah

   11. JSJay Shetty13:09

       ... would make for very, very insight. What does it take to get something like that done? Like, w- do you-

   12. EOEmily Oster13:14

       It's hard

   13. JSJay Shetty13:15

       ... is it probably already happening? Is it-

   14. EOEmily Oster13:16

       That's definitely not happening.

   15. JSJay Shetty13:17

       Okay.

   16. EOEmily Oster13:18

       Um, I think it's, it's very hard to do a study like that for, like, a bunch of different reasons. So one is even the design, you worry a little about ethics. Um, so you know, we wouldn't-- you couldn't do a study where you force some people to be antidepressants. Now, that's something you could get around. I think you could say we have a bunch of people who are on antidepressants. With some of them, we're gonna encourage them to go off. Some we're gonna, we're gonna not encourage them. Again, that-that's has some ethical issues, but you probably could get it, you'll probably get that through.

   17. JSJay Shetty13:45

       Yeah.

   18. EOEmily Oster13:46

       Um, I think the other issue is I'm not sure who's gonna fund that. So if you think about, like, how science works, like a lot of what gets... Drug companies fund a lot of trials. All these drugs are on generic at this point, so or, like, a large share of them. So the drug companies are not gonna be interested in funding those, those trials. And it isn't clear that, like, the NIH is interested in funding that trial either. And so I think we're sort of up against some ethics and also some real f- sort of funding limitations, and it's... people don't like to experiment on pregnant women. That's a-

   19. JSJay Shetty14:18

       Which is a-

   20. EOEmily Oster14:19

       For good-

   21. JSJay Shetty14:19

       Yeah, for good reasons

   22. EOEmily Oster14:20

       ... for some good reasons.

   23. JSJay Shetty14:20

       Yeah.

   24. EOEmily Oster14:20

       Good reasons-

   25. JSJay Shetty14:21

       Yeah

   26. EOEmily Oster14:21

       ... but it has some costs.

   27. JSJay Shetty14:22

       Yeah.

8. 14:23 – 17:43

   Which Pregnancy Rules Actually Matter (And Which Don’t)

   1. JSJay Shetty14:23

      I was gonna ask you, what's one thing that pregnant women worry about that you'd like them to stop worrying about and start focusing on something else?

   2. EOEmily Oster14:30

      One thing is people worry a tremendous amount about what they eat. I think that that's overblown. Actually, most of the food restrictions that people are told about don't make any-

   3. JSJay Shetty14:39

      Really?

   4. EOEmily Oster14:39

      ... don't really make any sense.

   5. JSJay Shetty14:41

      Really?

   6. EOEmily Oster14:41

      Uh, people worry a lot about exercise. There, there a, there's a lot that people are told, you know, "Don't, don't exercise in this way." And actually, most of those, again, are totally overblown restrictions, and people should be encouraged to kind of keep doing what they, um, what they are already doing. And I think people should... If you sort of said, like, "What should you replace that with?" I think people could, could do more to prepare their m-marriage and home life for the arrival of another n- person that requires all of your time and money.

   7. JSJay Shetty15:13

      What would you recommend? How would you go about thinking about that?

   8. EOEmily Oster15:15

      If you think about what happens when you have a kid to your, to your marriage, you are introducing a new person, somebody who you... There's a new project. There's a new group project, and you care more about this group project than you have ever cared about anything in your entire life, but you have no idea how to do it, and you're working with another person who also has no idea how to do it but really, really cares, and you might not agree, and also you're extremely tired because you haven't slept, and you don't have as much money or time as you did before. It's a terrible group project environment. [chuckles]

   9. JSJay Shetty15:48

      [chuckles]

   10. EOEmily Oster15:48

       And so I think one of... So I think during the pregnancy is a good opportunity to prepare for, like, how can we make this group project as good as possible, knowing that it, it comes with some, you know, some, some challenges. Uh, and so one thing I tell people all the time, and I think everyone should do, is put meetings on your calendar for after the baby is born, that there should be a, like, biweekly check-in meeting with your partner where you sit down and you talk about, like, what's going well, what's not going well, what could we do differently. This is sort of comes a little bit out of some of what we know about kind of marital satisfaction, which is people like a marital checkup. It's an opportunity to say, "Here's the things I'm doing. Here's what I'm feeling resentful about," you know. Like, an opportunity to connect in a kind of low, sort of l- in a cool state rather than in a hot state. Um, but I think early on in people's life you need this much more, and if you don't put those meetings on the calendar before you have the baby, you will never have them because you will not... Once you, once the group project starts, you're not gonna schedule meetings 'cause of all the other stuff I already, I already said. [chuckles]

   11. JSJay Shetty16:53

       [chuckles] Yeah, I mean, that sounds like really wise advice, especially when you explain it like a group project that the environment isn't really set up for.

   12. EOEmily Oster17:00

       A lot of parenting is about, you know, if you're parenting with another person, is about managing that, that relationship. We assume that it's all gonna be great because we love the other person, and I think there's a little bit of saying, like, you could love someone, but still running a business with them is different. [chuckles] And this is a little bit more like running a business than I think most people think.

   13. JSJay Shetty17:23

       Yeah. Yeah. We almost think that love is good enough when you're having a baby because it's a by-product of your love-

   14. EOEmily Oster17:29

       Right

   15. JSJay Shetty17:29

       ... but the project is still a project.

   16. EOEmily Oster17:30

       The project is still there.

   17. JSJay Shetty17:31

       Yeah. Yeah.

   18. EOEmily Oster17:31

       And love is, like, so important.

   19. JSJay Shetty17:33

       Yeah.

   20. EOEmily Oster17:33

       It's the most... It is such an important thing and... but the project is still... You know, things still have to happen in the project.

   21. JSJay Shetty17:39

       Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I was gonna ask you, what-- You mentioned this a bit earlier.

9. 17:43 – 20:56

   When Is the Best Time to Get Pregnant?

   1. JSJay Shetty17:44

      What are the key differences between trying to get pregnant in your 20s and in your 30s, and what should people be considering both ways?

   2. EOEmily Oster17:51

      So you know, our, our fertility, uh, is very high when we're in our late teens, which is not a convenient time for many people to have kids, and then it sort of slowly declines, um, kind of through, sort of slowly through the 20s, maybe getting a little faster through the 30s and sort of eventually kind of falling off towards, towards menopause. So I think one thing for people to understand is just, you know, this is a real factor in infertility, so there are plenty of opportunities to extend the life of fertility. IVF is very effective. Egg freezing can be an interesting option. But the reality is that it is harder to get pregnant when you're older than when you're younger, and that is something that I think people should know and at least understand that there is some trade-off there. It's not impossible, but it is harder.And then you have to trade that off with the fact that you may or may not be ready to have a kid when you're 20. You know, may not have the partner you want. You-- this may not be the right time. And so I think just being realistic about the existence of those trade-offs is kind of all you can do in terms of making decisions. It's the other piece I would often remind people is that your kid doesn't go away after like the first six months to [chuckles] to a year, and so there is a, a little bit-- Sometimes I'll sort of hear people be like, "Well, this year is a really good... Like, this is a good year for me 'cause like it's a down year at work." And it's like, well, after this year, like, they're [chuckles] still gonna be a... He's still gonna be around. And so I think just sort of understanding that your life is going to, no matter when this happens, aspects of other parts of your life are going to change and evolve as your kids get older. They're gonna get easier, but also in other ways harder, and this is gonna be part of your life forever. And so I, I would almost never tell people like d- like find the best year. It's like nah, it's the best-- you need the best 18 years.

   3. JSJay Shetty19:31

      [laughs]

   4. EOEmily Oster19:31

      [chuckles] It's like if you have a, if you have a good solid 18 years-

   5. JSJay Shetty19:34

      Yeah

   6. EOEmily Oster19:34

      ... possibly more. [chuckles]

   7. JSJay Shetty19:36

      Yeah. Yeah, I used to... I, I have, I have a mentor that used to tell me, "When you have kids, you've gotta write off" -- he used to say, and he's, you know, raised three kids, and they're all adults now, and has a great relationship with them, and he was like, "Jay, just write off seven years of your life per kid."

   8. EOEmily Oster19:51

      Yeah.

   9. JSJay Shetty19:51

      Like, that was his, his, his advice. And I was like, "Yeah, that, that's interesting." I don't have kids, but that same point as in like it wasn't just a one-year thing or a two-year thing.

   10. EOEmily Oster20:00

       Yeah.

   11. JSJay Shetty20:00

       But, but I appreciate what you're saying because I think, and this isn't just about kids, it applies to so many things, but to parenting as well, I think the question we often ask as humans is, is this the right time?

   12. EOEmily Oster20:10

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JSJay Shetty20:11

       And it's almost like the better question is, do we know how this is going to change our life?

   14. EOEmily Oster20:15

       Right.

   15. JSJay Shetty20:15

       Right. Do we know how to adapt? Do we know how to build the environment for the group project? Like, do we know what that's gonna require-

   16. EOEmily Oster20:21

       Yeah

   17. JSJay Shetty20:22

       ... is more of an important question than is this the right time? Because time is kind of undefined as to what it's valuable for.

   18. EOEmily Oster20:28

       Yeah. And I think it's very, very hard to ask, "Is this the right time?" and, and be confident about that over the period that we're talking about.

   19. JSJay Shetty20:37

       Yeah.

   20. EOEmily Oster20:37

       You know? It's just like you just can't know, and so I think it is really much more, as you say, about kind of crafting like is this the... How can we make this setting work for this project that we are embarking on?

   21. JSJay Shetty20:49

       Yeah. One of my favorite things about what you do is using data to bust myths-

   22. EOEmily Oster20:54

       Yeah

   23. JSJay Shetty20:54

       ... and also bust these things that we get

10. 20:56 – 25:50

    More Parenting and Pregnancy Myths

    1. JSJay Shetty20:56

       stressed about and overwhelm us. So what we created for you was a-

    2. EOEmily Oster20:59

       Oh, dear

    3. JSJay Shetty20:59

       ... debunking myths-

    4. EOEmily Oster21:00

       Okay

    5. JSJay Shetty21:01

       ... game for-

    6. EOEmily Oster21:01

       Oh, great

    7. JSJay Shetty21:02

       ... pregnancy and childcare. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna read a bunch of myths, cliches, things that we've all heard, and then you can give us the data-driven answer and the insight behind it. So the first one is, "It's okay to drink one glass of wine when you're pregnant."

    8. EOEmily Oster21:16

       Yes, especially in the later trimesters. I mean, if you look at the, if you look at the data, it's very clear that drinking a lot of alcohol is b-bad, and binge drinking at any time in pregnancy is very dangerous. But if you look at the data that looks at occasional drinking during pregnancy, it just doesn't show those, it doesn't show those kind of effects. And we actually do have a lot of data on this because in many places outside the US, this kind of alcohol consumption is much more common. Um, and we have, you know, reasonably good approaches to sort of figuring out causality there. And so that doesn't mean everyone should... is, is going to choose to do this. But I think that, that it is, uh, it is something that looking at the evidence, many people are comfortable with the occasional drink.

    9. JSJay Shetty21:57

       Got it. Okay. I was not expecting that. I didn't know that. Uh, next one, "Pregnant women shouldn't drink coffee."

    10. EOEmily Oster22:04

        That is a myth. Uh, that is a myth. So there is some discussion about links between caffeine in the first trimester and miscarriage. Uh, it turns out that m-those links don't show up pretty much at all until about four to six cups of coffee. So if you are consuming a sort of typical person amount of coffee a day, you know, one in the morning, one in the afternoon, that is... there's no evidence of downsides there. But even when we look at people who consume like a tremendous amount of coffee, it's like data from Sweden where people are consuming like eight cups of coffee a day, it's probably the case that any links with pregnancy loss are just driven by, uh, by nausea. So people who are really nauseous don't drink coffee, and that's also correlated with lower risks of miscarriage. There's a lot of stuff going on in the data, but the bottom line is that some coffee is totally fine.

    11. JSJay Shetty22:56

        Well, okay. Uh, "You can't eat sushi while pregnant."

    12. EOEmily Oster23:00

        Also not true. Uh, you should always-

    13. JSJay Shetty23:01

        How do people, how do people come up with this stuff then?

    14. EOEmily Oster23:03

        So sushi is, uh, you know, you can get foodborne illness from sushi. Uncooked fish is more dangerous than cooked fish. It's just like that, but that's always true, and it is not more true during pregnancies. This is something I sort of talk a lot about is, is thinking about, okay, you should generally think about trying to avoid the norovirus from your, from your sushi. Uh, and you should be thinking about that when you're not pregnant and when you're pregnant, but there's no particular risk to sushi during pregnancy.

    15. JSJay Shetty23:29

        Okay. Uh, "You can't get Botox while pregnant or breastfeeding."

    16. EOEmily Oster23:32

        Okay, Botox. You know, this is the number one question people ask me-

    17. JSJay Shetty23:36

        Really?

    18. EOEmily Oster23:36

        ... on Insta-

    19. JSJay Shetty23:37

        No way.

    20. EOEmily Oster23:37

        Yes. This is like the n- like the number one question, which is amazing. Um-

    21. JSJay Shetty23:41

        That's fascinating.

    22. EOEmily Oster23:42

        I know. It's only, it's only started like in the last five... You know, I've been doing-

    23. JSJay Shetty23:45

        What was it before that? Something really sincere?

    24. EOEmily Oster23:47

        It was much more like coffee. No, it was... it's always lifestyle stuff.

    25. JSJay Shetty23:51

        Yeah.

    26. EOEmily Oster23:51

        But like Botox, like really, people are really into Botox. Yeah, so you're not gonna be able to find someone to get you do your Botox when you are pregnant, although there is no evidence that it would be dangerous. It's just like no one's gonna do that. During breastfeeding, it is, it is fine. The Botox doesn't go into your milk, and you can do it if you wanna have your Botox. I always tell people that your face looks great. You don't need Botox.

    27. JSJay Shetty24:12

        [laughs]

    28. EOEmily Oster24:12

        People are like, "Oh my God, thank you so..." Then, then, then they're like, "Oh, but what about GLP-1s?" That's their next question. That's after-

    29. JSJay Shetty24:17

        Oh, and, and what's-

    30. EOEmily Oster24:18

        Yeah
11. 25:50 – 30:35

    Common Breastfeeding Myths Debunked

    1. EOEmily Oster25:50

       why I think we are so frequently hearing, you know, breast is best, breast milk is, has all these positive benefits, is because the people who are breastfeeding are very differently selected than the people who are, who are not. So breastfeeding tends to be associated with higher maternal education, higher maternal income, other resources, and those things themselves are associated with higher performance on IQ tests. And so one of the things that's really interesting in something like the breast milk, um, IQ linkage is you can see, you know, if you just compare kids who are breastfed to kids who are not, the... you see, you know, big differences in IQ. If you control for, you adjust for some differences across the moms, those effects get a little smaller. If you adjust for more differences, if you adjust for, say, mom's IQ test, they get even smaller. And then if you compare siblings, so one kid's breastfed, one's not, but it's the same mom, you see no effect. And that sort of tells me that these initial effects we're seeing are really about differences across who's breastfeeding and who's not, as opposed to the effect of the breast milk itself.

    2. JSJay Shetty26:54

       Right. And, and then I've, I've spoken to moms as well who are like, "Also, formula is really expensive too." So it's like a-

    3. EOEmily Oster27:00

       Well, both things are very-

    4. JSJay Shetty27:01

       Yeah, yeah

    5. EOEmily Oster27:01

       ... I mean, both things are very expensive.

    6. JSJay Shetty27:02

       Yeah.

    7. EOEmily Oster27:02

       You know, people will tell you, you know, "Oh, well, breastfeeding's free." It's like, I'm sorry, does my time have no value?

    8. JSJay Shetty27:07

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    9. EOEmily Oster27:07

       Like [chuckles] actually these things are both expensive.

    10. JSJay Shetty27:09

        Right.

    11. EOEmily Oster27:09

        Uh, formula costs money, breastfeeding costs time.

    12. JSJay Shetty27:12

        Time, yeah.

    13. EOEmily Oster27:13

        And I think it's not, it's not obvious that one of these is, is cheaper. I mean, I will say, like I... you know, and my mother, when I was writing all these books about pregnancy, I read both the set of pregnancy books that my grandmother had in like the, you know, 1940 f- 40s, and the ones that my mom had in like the early 1980s. And there's a, there's Dr. Spark... Spock was like the core to the 19- early 1980s. And in his book, from the time that I, when I was born, he's got this discussion of breastfeeding, and this is a time in which people were sort of still coming back to breastfeeding after a long period of like, formula is the best. And he says something that's like, you know, y- like breastfeeding, a, a lot... You might try breastfeeding. A lot of people w- like, like it. A lot of people think it's good, you know, enjoy it. And that's sort of how he puts it, like, this is something that you should, you should try because it might end up working for you. And I think, like, that message I think is really good. Like, you should try this, and we should help people figure out how to breastfeed, which is not that easy, and we should be supportive of it because it may work for a lot of people. Which is different from saying we should be telling people that if you don't do this, your kid's gonna suck, which is how a lot of people are hearing that messaging.

    14. JSJay Shetty28:26

        Right.

    15. EOEmily Oster28:26

        And that is not a healthy message. It is not true, and it is not helpful to anything.

    16. JSJay Shetty28:32

        Yeah. It's, it's a, it's a lot of pressure.

    17. EOEmily Oster28:35

        It's a lot of pressure.

    18. JSJay Shetty28:35

        And not taking into account what people do for work, how much time they have, how much income they have. Like it, not taking into account all of that.

    19. EOEmily Oster28:42

        Yeah, I mean, one of the reasons... So I had written Expecting Better, which is a book about pregnancy, and then I was not sure if I was gonna write a second book, 'cause like a long time between the two books. I had to have a second kid and all kinds of other stuff. But I think the thing that ultimately pushed me over into writing Cribsheet, which talks all about breastfeeding among many other things, is the emails that I kept getting from dads. And I remember this one very vividly that was like, "My wife is so... like, is, is like killing herself over breastfeeding, and she's depressed, and she is all, she... like, this is, she's sa- you know, she thinks she has to do this, and I really, like, I want to help her. Like, I think she would listen to you. Can you tell me how important is this really? Like, what does the data say?" And I think that moment of someone being like, "This is really harming my family," and I think that it would make, it would make people feel better to know what the data really says, that was kind of... I think that's just really important.

    20. JSJay Shetty29:35

        Yeah, and I think we underestimate, and this applies to other areas of life as well, where stress about something you care about-

    21. EOEmily Oster29:42

        Totally

    22. JSJay Shetty29:42

        ... doesn't end up having a good impact on it. Or for example, staying healthy is important, but stressing about staying healthy is kind of working counterintuitively against you as well.

    23. EOEmily Oster29:52

        Yeah.

    24. JSJay Shetty29:52

        And it doesn't really help. And so similarly, if we... it's, it's a hard thing with children, I can imagine, because you care and you... it's, it's a different level of dedication and devotion to a child than it is even to your own health. But stress is always gonna be reflected poorly as well. That's more likely to have a bad impact.

    25. EOEmily Oster30:11

        Yeah, and I think we also have to recognize, like, some of what we're like t- like the reason we're having kids and we're doing this is like, because it's fun, and because we want our family to be functioning in a nice way, and if somebody is very unhappy, if mom is very unhappy, that is negatively affecting how the family is functioning. And sometimes I'll say parents are people too, 'cause I think we often forget that they are an important part of the family.

    26. JSJay Shetty30:34

        What do you wish men

12. 30:35 – 36:06

    How Dads Can Support After Birth

    1. JSJay Shetty30:35

       knew about pregnancy that maybe they don't because they don't experience it, and they don't really understand what's going on?

    2. EOEmily Oster30:42

       I think it is very hard to really understand the experience of pregnancy. I think there's various things I tell men, you know. Like-Y- you know, fun fact, like, y- you get to pee on, women pee on themselves [laughs] a lot because there's a lot of pressure. There's, like, things like that which I think it's good, just good to know the stuff that is, that is going on. But I think much m- more important is sort of understanding, like, how can I engage when the baby arrives? Like, that, you know, that's the time when we often get this sort of bifurcation of, of mom and dad, where the woman ends up doing more of the work and sort of just learning more, and then she knows more, and then he s- doesn't know. And I think there's, like, a real opportunity in that moment to kind of both lean in to learning how to do everything at, at the same time. I would worry much more about that than about kind of understanding all of the n- nuances of, of pregnancy, which are just... It's hard to explain.

    3. JSJay Shetty31:43

       Yeah. Got it. Yeah. No, I'm just asking for myself. [laughs]

    4. EOEmily Oster31:45

       Right. Yes.

    5. JSJay Shetty31:46

       Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

    6. EOEmily Oster31:47

       But yeah. I mean, people would be like, "Oh, you know, you should understand how uncomfortable it is." Like, yeah.

    7. JSJay Shetty31:49

       Yeah.

    8. EOEmily Oster31:49

       It's pretty u- like, it's pretty uncomfortable.

    9. JSJay Shetty31:51

       Not even that. I, I think it's-

    10. EOEmily Oster31:52

        It's like-

    11. JSJay Shetty31:52

        ... it's what, what you're saying makes sense to me. It's, it's almost like it's the preparation piece. L- uh, I think it's, you can never fully empathize with how painful it is, how difficult. Like, you're never... That, that isn't even it. But it's, yeah, how can men better prepare? For example, I had a lot of people that I know whose partners went through, like, postpartum, like afterwards.

    12. EOEmily Oster32:11

        Yeah.

    13. JSJay Shetty32:11

        And a lot of men I knew just didn't understand what was going on.

    14. EOEmily Oster32:14

        Yes.

    15. JSJay Shetty32:14

        And they were just like, "Uh, she's gone crazy. She's just depressed all the time."

    16. EOEmily Oster32:17

        Yeah.

    17. JSJay Shetty32:18

        Like, you know, those kind of things. And it's almost like I think we're learning a bit more now, I hope. And, and conversations like this are all to help raise awareness, to have the right conversations, to prepare for the project, to set up homes in a better way, to know what may come next.

    18. EOEmily Oster32:32

        Yeah.

    19. JSJay Shetty32:32

        You know, and so I think there's all of that, where it's like you don't, you don't know what that person's going through. And w- if... Is pregnancy brain a real thing, for example? Like-

    20. EOEmily Oster32:41

        Yeah

    21. JSJay Shetty32:41

        ... is that real?

    22. EOEmily Oster32:41

        Not, not really, no.

    23. JSJay Shetty32:43

        Right.

    24. EOEmily Oster32:43

        I think it's just that you're tired. Um-

    25. JSJay Shetty32:44

        Yeah.

    26. EOEmily Oster32:44

        Yeah. But I think there-

    27. JSJay Shetty32:45

        It's just fatigue, yeah

    28. EOEmily Oster32:46

        ... there... Something to come back to, like, the pre-pregnancy, something I would say is, you know, for, for people who are going through, like, IVF, uh, which can be very, like, time-consuming and, you know, a h- huge amount of work-

    29. JSJay Shetty32:58

        Stressful or expensive and painful

    30. EOEmily Oster32:58

        ... I think that is a place where women will often take the vast brunt of this experience and where actually there's way more that could be shared. Because there's a lot of logistics, there's a lot of, like, paying attention to when are we doing this and what, and just keeping up to date, and that is a place where I think men could lean in far more. You know, you can't take the shots. You're not gonna be, you know, having your eggs harvested. But fundamentally, like, there's a lot of logistics.
13. 36:06 – 39:23

    More Pregnancy Myths

    1. JSJay Shetty36:06

       Uh, okay, back to the myths.

    2. EOEmily Oster36:07

       Yeah.

    3. JSJay Shetty36:07

       Breastfeeding will help you lose all the weight quickly.

    4. EOEmily Oster36:10

       No. Sorry. It will not. Uh, there's the, I think the data s- shows that you're breastfeeding, women lose an average over, like, the first year, like 1.5 more pounds. So no, because you eat more. You breastfeed, it co- it's calories, and then you consume more calories, just like anything else.

    5. JSJay Shetty36:27

       Okay.

    6. EOEmily Oster36:28

       It's not weight loss.

    7. JSJay Shetty36:28

       And there, there's no magic pill for that either.

    8. EOEmily Oster36:30

       No. There is a magic pill. It's called, it's called Ozempic. [laughs]

    9. JSJay Shetty36:32

       Oh, yeah. Right, right.

    10. EOEmily Oster36:33

        But it's not for... It's not that. [laughs]

    11. JSJay Shetty36:35

        Yeah. You can't dye your hair while pregnant.

    12. EOEmily Oster36:37

        That is a myth. There was some discussion of hairdressers having some, but it turned out there's really no data on that. Hair dye is fine.

    13. JSJay Shetty36:46

        Okay. You can't sleep on your back while you're pregnant.

    14. EOEmily Oster36:49

        This is also a myth. Uh, so people for a long time were told not to sleep on their back because of concerns about compressing a v- vein. And it is true that that can happen, but it-Turns out, you know, if that's happening to you, like you'll be uncomfortable and you will move. And when we got better data, uh, to look at some of the things people were concerned about, the risk of stillbirth, uh, actually it turns out sleep position has nothing to do with that. So, uh, if you should sleep in... It's very hard to sleep when you are pregnant, and if you are comfortable on your back, you should try. Eventually, that is likely to become uncomfortable.

    15. JSJay Shetty37:22

        Got it. Uh, you can control whether or not you're going to have a boy or a girl.

    16. EOEmily Oster37:27

        You cannot control this. Outside of like y- if you have embryos, you can implant embryos of particular, particular sex. But a lot of people have this idea that like male sperm swims fast and doesn't live as long, and so if you have sex close to ovula- No. Just no. That doesn't work.

    17. JSJay Shetty37:44

        Uh, natural birth is better.

    18. EOEmily Oster37:46

        I hate the phrase natural birth. Uh, but it is not better. Uh, there is... Epidurals are very, and different kinds of pain relief are very safe and effective, and, uh, there's no better there.

    19. JSJay Shetty38:00

        Taking Tylenol during pregnancy is not safe.

    20. EOEmily Oster38:03

        That is a myth. There is, y- many people heard the president NRFK say that Tylenol causes autism, but when you look at the best data on this, we do not see that link.

    21. JSJay Shetty38:13

        Okay. You can't use retinol during pregnancy.

    22. EOEmily Oster38:16

        Uh, so you cannot use Accutane during pregnancy, so the, the sort of oral form of vitamin A is linked. Accutane is one of the small number of things that are very, very clearly linked to very extreme birth defects.

    23. JSJay Shetty38:31

        Like what?

    24. EOEmily Oster38:32

        It could m-missing limbs.

    25. JSJay Shetty38:34

        Oh, wow.

    26. EOEmily Oster38:34

        A lot of stillbirth. Like a, I mean, they, they... So actually, the restrictions on pregnancy, if you are on Accutane, you have to be on multiple kinds of birth control. There's like th-this is like a very, it's a category X, which is means like you cannot have that in pregnancy. Retinol is a form of vitamin A, and so there's, people will sort of say, "Okay, well, is this the same here?" But turns out the, the absorption through your skin is so, so, so, so, so, so much less, uh, than, than taking something in an oral form. And so most people will say, like out of an abundance of caution, don't take this, but there's nothing in the data that would suggest it's risky, and a lot of people use retinol throughout pregnancy, sometimes by accident. We don't see much of a negative effect. So I always tell people like, "You're fine to quit this, but, uh, if you were taking, if you were using this early in pregnancy, you shouldn't freak out."

    27. JSJay Shetty39:22

        Yeah.

14. 39:23 – 40:50

    What’s Actually Best for the Baby?

    1. JSJay Shetty39:23

       Going back to the Tylenol example and, and what you said earlier, it's so hard, some data is so hard to trust when you said like, you were like, you know, the big drug companies, for example, are funding a lot of the research. So it's like who would almost go against Tylenol, for example, and that may not be the best one to pick on. But I'm just looking at it from that perspective of that's one that's like, is it just because the drug companies would do the research, and then who else would pay for research against that?

    2. EOEmily Oster39:49

       Yeah. So I think in the case of something like... So, so people talk a lot about these issues of sort of funding-

    3. JSJay Shetty39:55

       Yeah

    4. EOEmily Oster39:55

       ... f-funding conflicts. And in the case of something like Tylenol, most of the data we have on this is, uh, not from... I mean, Tylenol is a generic drug. The, the company that makes Tylenol is not, uh, you know, is not doing these kind of trials. These are studies done on very large data sets that are collected, you know, by the Danish government on everybody in Denmark, and they have whether they took Tylenol and then things about their kids, and they follow them over time. So this is all sort of like large scale, government-funded dataset, databases. When we look at drugs in, in general, yeah, a lot of the studies of drugs are run by p-pharmaceutical companies, but in a very heavily regulated way. Like the pharma company doesn't just get to decide like what to do whatever. They have to do a study to get their drug approved that is itself approved by the FDA. And so I think that those kind of conflicts are more complicated than many people think.

    5. JSJay Shetty40:48

       Got it. Understood.

15. 40:50 – 43:35

    How Much Screen Time Is Too Much?

    1. JSJay Shetty40:50

       You should not do screen time before age two.

    2. EOEmily Oster40:54

       Okay. Uh, screen time is perhaps the best example of correlation is not causation in parenting. And so people, you know, send me these studies that say, you know, screen time before the age of one is linked with, you know, all of these terrible outcomes. You look at the study, and you'll have one group of kids are watching more than four hours of screens a day before the age of one, and then another group that never watches screens before the age of one, and then they, they compare them later. The thing I always want to ask people is like, imagine those two households. Do you think there's anything else different other than the screen exposure? Like, of course, those are really different households. There's many things that are different. It turns out you can see some of those in the data, but there are just all kinds of pieces of the differences that we're not gonna be able to see in the data, and it is not surprising that we would find different outcomes for those kids. But that's just a correlation, is not a causal link. And so then we're, it left in a place with screens where people have to make a choice about how much to expose their kids to screens at different ages without very good data. So all the data we have is very crummy, but it is a set of choices you have to, you have to make. I don't think there's anything that's, we would see in the data that would suggest, you know, your kid watching a half an hour of Miss Rachel, you know, few times a week would be problematic. It's very difficult to imagine how that could be bad. And actually, what's interesting is the AAP has recently kind of dialed back their screen time restrictions to a set of guidelines that more or less say, "Just kinda think about it a bit more. Like, give it some thought." Um, and I think this is n-not a terrible piece of ad-advice, that you should think about where screens fit in your day. If your kid's watching eight hours of screens, they're not doing other things that they should be doing. If they're watching a half an hour of screens so you can get dinner ready so you guys can all sit down together, like that's probably a good thing. And it's ultimately about making a plan that works for your family for when these screens will fit into your day as opposed to saying like, "No screens, all screens," which isn't very helpful.

    3. JSJay Shetty42:58

       Yeah. Is, is there any data to suggest that a mother's anxiety affects the child when pregnant?

    4. EOEmily Oster43:04

       Not anything that you would think of as good. So there's, there's a little bit of evidence that very, very, very stressful events during pregnancy, and we're talking here not like, you know, this was a bad week at work, but like your spouse died. That can show up in some small, like long-term effects on, on kids. Um, but general anxiety, stress during pregnancy, not so much. Very hard to study that because, of course, maternal anxiety and child anxiety are linked, but probably for both genetic and other environmental reasons having nothing to do with pregnancy.

16. 43:35 – 47:10

    How to Deal With Mom Guilt

    1. JSJay Shetty43:35

       One of the questions that we got when we announced that you'd be coming on the show and we're trying to get questions in from our audience was-How do you deal with mom guilt? Because that seems to be such a widely held challenge that everyone feels guilty, anxious, stressed that they're doing it wrong, and everything they see online makes them feel like they're doing it wrong. And even the myths we just covered would make you feel like you're doing it wrong.

    2. EOEmily Oster43:58

       Yeah. So I think there's, the biggest problem for a lot of people is you make a choice, you do something, and then someone is like, "Why would you make that choice?" And then you feel like a crap. I mean, that's like a very... That happens all the time.

    3. JSJay Shetty44:11

       Yeah.

    4. EOEmily Oster44:12

       I think our best defense against that is to make our choices thoughtfully, is to say, "I thought about whether, you know, breastfeeding was right for me, or whether sleep training was right for me," or whatever is your, like, topic of choice. Like, sit down, actually make those decisions deliberately. Like, these are important decisions. They're gonna shape your life. They're gonna shape, even if they don't matter for your kid, they're gonna shape how your, how your life is, like, what your experience is like. You should make them deliberately and decide what's the right choice for you. And then recognize that that can't be the right choice for everyone else, but that you thought about this choice. I think if we kind of come into these conversations feeling like, "I know that I made the right choice for me, and I thought about it and this was the right choice, and I can never be sure if it was ultimately the right choice, but it was the right choice ex ante," I think that's a little bit protective. I think people could spend less time online. That would probably be helpful for some of this. Um, but I, you know, I, mean, it's very... Mom guilt is a, a topic that I experience. Um-

    5. JSJay Shetty45:11

       Yeah

    6. EOEmily Oster45:11

       ... and I think s- you know, some of it is, is kind of just trying to recognize that you're doing a good job some of the time.

    7. JSJay Shetty45:18

       Yeah, no, thank you for say- thank you for sharing that. And it's, again, I'm, I can only reflect on it in other areas of life, but it's almost like it's the human trait of needing our choices to be validated, and wanting other people to agree with our way of doing and thinking.

    8. EOEmily Oster45:35

       Totally.

    9. JSJay Shetty45:36

       And also how uncomfortable it is when everyone does tell you you're doing something wrong because they did it another way. So even if you're very happy with your choice, you get triggered by someone else who says, "Well, my kid's got this IQ level at this age," and whatever, and all of a sudden you're triggered by it. Or someone actually comes to you and says, "Can't believe you did that. Like, you know, my kids are doing great, and I never did that." And so I think there's partly us crowdsourcing and outsourcing and being overexposed to lots of other people and how they do it. Then you have some frustrating people in your life who are telling you how to do it, to be honest. And, and then there's just that, coming back to what you kind of said, which I really appreciate, which is know why you're making the choices you make and be really clear about it in your group project again.

    10. EOEmily Oster46:17

        Yeah.

    11. JSJay Shetty46:18

        And have some conviction and confidence that based on your set of beliefs, background, socioeconomic status, you're making the best decisions you can.

    12. EOEmily Oster46:27

        Yeah, and I think that the, the point of recognizing that, like, your best decisions may not be other people's best decisions is so crucial because I think in these moments, we are... W- we want our decisions to be right, and we sort of want them to be so right that they're right for everyone else. And so when you make a different choice from me, it's, it's, like, hard for me not to read that as, as, like, you think my choice is bad.

    13. JSJay Shetty46:49

        Yeah.

    14. EOEmily Oster46:49

        Or, like, the... Well, you, you know-

    15. JSJay Shetty46:51

        Or I failed.

    16. EOEmily Oster46:51

        Or I failed. As, as opposed to just being like, yeah, this person had a different set of constraints and, you know, they made a different choice, and, you know, different set of preferences, different set of constraints, and, like, the both choices could be right. If we could adopt that approach a bit more, it, some of the discourse would be a, like, a little less ah.

    17. JSJay Shetty47:08

        [laughs]

    18. EOEmily Oster47:09

        The way that

17. 47:10 – 49:22

    How to Raise Confident Kids

    1. EOEmily Oster47:10

       it is.

    2. JSJay Shetty47:10

       Yeah. What is the data say about raising confident kids?

    3. EOEmily Oster47:13

       Not too much. Uh, it's really hard to look at that kind of data. You know, we have pieces of data about, you know, raising kids who are sort of willing to take risks. So there's a lot... It's like a... There's literature about, like, grit and sort of how to develop grit in kids and, and some of this is things like, you know, grow- like, the growth mindset stuff, right? Like, you sort of want your kid to understand that sometimes things are hard and you have to, you know, push. You, like, you can get better at something. Just because you're not good at it now doesn't mean you couldn't eventually be good at. And I think that's, that's kind of part of this. It's not exactly the same as confidence, but it's something that people are often trying to, to develop. What I will say is I think people take pieces of advice like that which are very good and are based on data that, like, we shouldn't discourage kids from having a growth mindset, and they, they kind of get the... It ends up being, getting distilled into advice that is ridiculous.

    4. JSJay Shetty48:13

       Mm.

    5. EOEmily Oster48:13

       Right? So people end up... We go from, you know, a growth mindset is good, so it's good for kids to understand that, like, it's, the, the value's in the effort and it's, you know, worth trying and da, da, da. And it gets to parents as never tell your kid good job.

    6. JSJay Shetty48:27

       Yeah, yeah, right.

    7. EOEmily Oster48:27

       And then it's like, well, what do you mean? Like, where's the... And it's like there's no evidence that telling your kid good job is, y- you know, is, is a problem.

    8. JSJay Shetty48:35

       Yeah.

    9. EOEmily Oster48:35

       You... We could develop a growth mindset while occasionally [laughs] saying good job, you know?

    10. JSJay Shetty48:40

        Yeah.

    11. EOEmily Oster48:40

        So you have these conversations. For a while we were having these conversations where my kids would come home, my kids are a bit older, and they would come home and they'd be like, "You know, this is the score I got on this, on this test." [laughs] And we were reacting, being like, "Yeah, well, how do you feel about that?" [laughs] And finally my daughter was like, "Stop saying that."

    12. JSJay Shetty48:56

        [laughs]

    13. EOEmily Oster48:56

        Like, "That's super annoying."

    14. JSJay Shetty48:58

        That's so funny.

    15. EOEmily Oster48:59

        And then it's like, okay, fine. You know, where it's like-

    16. JSJay Shetty49:01

        That's hilarious

    17. EOEmily Oster49:01

        ... it's okay to, it's okay to say good job. [laughs]

    18. JSJay Shetty49:03

        Yeah. That's so funny.

    19. EOEmily Oster49:05

        So-

    20. JSJay Shetty49:05

        That's amazing

    21. EOEmily Oster49:06

        ... I think there's just, like, there are many things like this where it gets, parents are sort of looking so hard for these, like, here's a, here's a, here's something you can just do as, like, super concrete-

    22. JSJay Shetty49:14

        Yeah

    23. EOEmily Oster49:15

        ... a super concrete piece of advice, and we distill things that are very complicated into something very simple, which is often wrong.

18. 49:22 – 53:42

    Parenting Decisions That Cause Stress

    1. JSJay Shetty49:22

       Well, I think it's hard because it goes back to the point I asked you earlier about when I was talking about my mum and my qualities and things like that. I was like, we, we almost, our mind for some reason likes to think that there's a point-to-point connection-

    2. EOEmily Oster49:35

       Absolutely

    3. JSJay Shetty49:35

       ... of every action, choice, and decision that impacts something. So if a kid is struggling at school, we're like, "Oh, it's because I did this."

    4. EOEmily Oster49:43

       Yes.

    5. JSJay Shetty49:43

       Or, you know, if they struggle later in life in a relationship, it's like, "Oh, because me and your dad did this," right? It's-

    6. EOEmily Oster49:49

       Yeah

    7. JSJay Shetty49:49

       ... we make connections feel very linear-Even though they feel extremely cyclical, random, disconnected, and connected, and complicated, quite frankly.

    8. EOEmily Oster49:59

       Yeah.

    9. JSJay Shetty49:59

       It's just too complicated for any of us to know why or how that ended up happening.

    10. EOEmily Oster50:05

        Absolutely. And I, I think we have somehow this kind of idea has translated, I think, for a lot of people into feeling almost that every moment with your child is an opportunity to mess them up forever.

    11. JSJay Shetty50:17

        [laughs]

    12. EOEmily Oster50:17

        And I think that's... You know, so there was an, an episode, uh, maybe a year ago where people were very worried about hurrying. We, uh, we got this idea of hurried child syndrome.

    13. JSJay Shetty50:27

        Okay. I didn't-

    14. EOEmily Oster50:28

        You are... Yes

    15. JSJay Shetty50:28

        ... I missed this.

    16. EOEmily Oster50:29

        Mm-hmm. You did.

    17. JSJay Shetty50:30

        Yeah.

    18. EOEmily Oster50:30

        That's so lucky for you.

    19. JSJay Shetty50:31

        [laughs]

    20. EOEmily Oster50:31

        So there was all of a sudden all this stuff on social media about hurried child syndrome, which was conveyed to people as if you're hurrying your child out the door in the morning and being like, "Get your shoes on, we have to go," that that's gonna lead them to have terrible problems with anxiety later. And it got this name, and people were like, "Oh my gosh," like, but then it sort of for parents they were like, "Oh my God, but like sometimes I do need them to get their shoes on." [laughs]

    21. JSJay Shetty50:52

        [laughs]

    22. EOEmily Oster50:52

        "We have to go to... 'Cause we have to go to school. Like, what am I doing?" You know, but every... And it again had this feeling of like every moment, every morning when you get out of the house is an opportunity to screw it all up. Like you could be doing everything perfectly, and then there's that one day where you're like, "Get your shoes on," and that's it. Then later when they're an unsuccessful failure adult, it's because of that time that you said the thing about the shoes, right? And that, that is how it feels.

    23. JSJay Shetty51:16

        Sorry, I'm laughing. [laughs]

    24. EOEmily Oster51:17

        It's like, no, but I mean, I think it's, it's sort of ridiculous when you put it like that, but I, I think it is how people were-

    25. JSJay Shetty51:23

        It's how we feel

    26. EOEmily Oster51:23

        ... were feeling.

    27. JSJay Shetty51:24

        Yeah.

    28. EOEmily Oster51:24

        And I- in the end, actually, hurried child syndrome is a totally different thing, completely not at all like this, which is-

    29. JSJay Shetty51:30

        What is it, actually?

    30. EOEmily Oster51:31

        It's an idea coined by some guys in the 1970s that if we push kids to do sort of too much like pre-professional like sports and like just sort of grow up too quickly, that, uh, that they miss out on some of the fun of childhood. But actually, very interesting set of issues related to some of the stuff John Haidt has talked about. Like interesting set of issues to discuss, completely unrelated to getting your shoes on. There's no evidence [laughs] that pushing your kid out the door, you know... So I think it was just an e- an example of something that kind of got into the, into the zeitgeist, but is, is the stuff parents are hearing every day. And I think if we could just dial down a little bit and be like, "Hey, there are some ways you could mess up your kid," but like they're much bigger than this, than these kind of tiny daily choices that you're, that you're making.
19. 53:42 – 55:41

    When Is The Best Time to Have Kids?

    1. EOEmily Oster53:42

       you're good. You're good.

    2. JSJay Shetty53:43

       What's your take on that coming from people's own unhealed stress, pressure, trauma, childhood? Like how much of that is coming from their own? Is there any data to suggest that we-

    3. EOEmily Oster53:52

       I don't think there's a lot of data to suggest that. I, I actually have, have always read this as something completely different, which is it's coming out of the demographic shift and when kid- when people are having kids. So we, uh, you know, it used to be you had kids, you know, you kind of graduate from college, whatever, you get... Maybe you didn't go to college and you had some kids like in, in your 20s. We're now in a demographic space where a lot of people have kind of thought about like, "Okay, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna work hard, I'm gonna get into college that I want to. I'm gonna get into college, I'm gonna go to college, I'm gonna get the job I want. I'm gonna get there, I'm gonna make partner, I'm gonna go to graduate." Like da, da, da, da, da. I've like sort of been climbing a ladder of like professional s- personal and professional things, and I've gotten to this point and it's like, okay, like all of these things I put a lot of effort in, and I got it. And now I'm gonna have a kid, and I'm gonna put a lot of effort in to win, right? Like k- like sort of the children become the thing you're gonna win next.

    4. JSJay Shetty54:45

       Yeah.

    5. EOEmily Oster54:45

       And I think that generates an enormous amount of pressure, because if you think of your child as like a thing to achieve, it's difficult because it's not like going to... It's not like getting into college. You know, it's not like if you work harder, like, like it goes better. [laughs] It goes much worse.

    6. JSJay Shetty55:01

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    7. EOEmily Oster55:01

       Um, but I, I think that's, that's part of it is this feeling of kind of like this is a, this is something that I could, that I could win, uh, much more so than some of this unhealed... I mean, that's hard to know. I'm sure people do have unhealed traumas, but I would guess the demographic shifting is more.

    8. JSJay Shetty55:15

       Yeah. It's, it's the hard toggle between saying it is a group project, but it isn't. Because it's, it's what you said earlier. I agree with you. There has to be a business plan almost, but then it's not a business in that it, it's so it's this-

    9. EOEmily Oster55:26

       It's unpr- yeah.

    10. JSJay Shetty55:27

        Yeah, yeah.

    11. EOEmily Oster55:27

        It's, there's like a limit to what you can control.

    12. JSJay Shetty55:29

        Yeah, yeah.

    13. EOEmily Oster55:30

        You can cont- there are things you can do to set up to make the, the experience of doing this easier, but that is different from being able to control the outcome, and I think that's sort of the core, the core

20. 55:41 – 1:01:19

    The Truth About Sleep Training

    1. EOEmily Oster55:41

       distinction.

    2. JSJay Shetty55:41

       Wanted to talk about one of the other big debates around sleep training.

    3. EOEmily Oster55:45

       Yes.

    4. JSJay Shetty55:45

       Uh, this is probably what your day-

    5. EOEmily Oster55:46

       Oh, boy

    6. JSJay Shetty55:47

       ... is filled with because-

    7. EOEmily Oster55:48

       People are-

    8. JSJay Shetty55:48

       ... there's no parent who's not struggling with sleep-

    9. EOEmily Oster55:50

       Ah, totally

    10. JSJay Shetty55:50

        ... in some way, shape, or form. Is there an ideal way to sleep train, one size fits all model?

    11. EOEmily Oster55:57

        Definitely not. Um, I think so, so-First of all, uh, there are a-- Yeah, there, there is definitely not a good one-size-fits-all. Sleep training is not going to be the right choice for many parents. I think the-- But it is gonna be the right choice for some parents. So when we talk about sleep training, one thing people worry about is, you know, is this gonna cause long-term terrible attachment problems for my kid? And let me back up and say, like, what do we mean by sleep training?

    12. JSJay Shetty56:22

        Yes, please. Yeah.

    13. EOEmily Oster56:23

        Like, so-

    14. JSJay Shetty56:23

        Can you define sleep training, please?

    15. EOEmily Oster56:24

        When we talk about sleep training, usually people mean some form of, like, encouraging independent sleep, which usually involves some crying. There's a wide range of things. So it ranges from kind of the, the sort of f-Ferber extinction method, where you kind of do a nice bedtime routine, put your kid in the, in the bed, close the door and, and, you know, decide we're not gonna come back for some amount of time, and the kid will often cry for a long time. Usually, it's a few nights of that, and then they, they sleep. And then there's versions of this where you're sitting in the room with them, where you're coming in. So there's a lot of variations, but it almost always is in the service of trying to encourage a kid to fall asleep independently and to sleep to sort of connect sleep cycles. So when we sleep, all people, including kids, we wake up every, about every ninety minutes between sleep cycles. And so good quality sleep for kids and for their parents means sort of the kids need to connect the sleep cycles in some way, and so then they are sleeping through the night. When you say a baby's sleeping through the night, you don't mean that they're literally asleep the entire time. You mean that they are going back to sleep on their own after they, they wake up. Okay, so sleep training usually involves some kind of crying, so unless people worry that this will cause long-term attachments. We have a lot of data on this that suggests that that's not true, including some randomized data, some community-based data. There's a lot of evidence that sleep training is not damaging to children, and also a fair amount of evidence that it improves sleep for parents and that it, it sort of causes improved sleeps for kids in the sense of allowing them to connect these sleep cycles. Having said all that, I think that means, for me, based on the data, that this should be in people's toolbox. That when you think about, like, what am I gonna do about the fact that we need to sleep, my kid needs to sleep, sleep is really important, we have to decide this should be one of the things in the toolbox. It's not gonna be the thing every parent pulls out of their toolbox. Often find this a little bit of a hard conversation that people kind of end up in sort of doing one of two things. Like, one of two things is sustainable. One is some kind of sleep training where the kid's gonna sleep independently, and they're gonna sleep for extended periods of time, and the other is co-sleeping. These can work really well for different families. The thing that actually is very hard is, like, I'm not sleeping in the room with my kid, but they're waking up every ninety minutes, and I have to go put them back to sleep. That's really unsustainable for almost every family. They tend to find that people kind of come into one of these two, these two options, but that really means that you wanna ask yourself, like, which of-- You know, where are we trying to go? Like, are we hoping to all be sleeping together in the bed, which can work for a lot of people, or are we hoping to be sleeping independently? And from there to kind of back out, you know, how are we gonna, how are we gonna get there?

    16. JSJay Shetty59:10

        Is there a right age to start sleep training if that's the choice you make?

    17. EOEmily Oster59:13

        Probably not. So n-not before four or five months. Um, and at that point, you are not looking for your kid to sleep all the way through the night. So many of these sort of sleep training approaches, they are kind of about learning some independent sleep, then sort of putting together a, a schedule where you think, okay, at some point they will need to eat in the middle of the night, and then as they get older, and they need to eat less, they'll kind of connect more of those things and eventually have a longer sleep.

    18. JSJay Shetty59:40

        Right. Got it. Uh, are there any-- I mean, I guess it's just painful for a parent to go to sleep thinking that their child's crying and takes a second to, you know.

    19. EOEmily Oster59:50

        Yeah, I think o- so one of the things we see in the data is that sleep training doesn't work well if you are not ready to do it. So the people who are ambivalent about this, who think, like, "I'm not comfortable with this, I don't-- this doesn't feel right to me," th-this isn't gonna work so well because y- like, y-you're not c- you're not con- consistency is important.

    20. JSJay Shetty1:00:06

        Yeah.

    21. EOEmily Oster1:00:06

        And it's just, like, that's not gonna work as well for that group. So I think a lot of it is about being, sort of deciding that this is something that is safe, something that is effective, something that's gonna work for a family and deliver at the other side of it, which is often, you know, just a few days, kind of gonna deliver a better environment for, for your family.

    22. JSJay Shetty1:00:25

        Yeah. Anything else on sleep training that we've missed, that we haven't talked about, things that you get asked the most about it?

    23. EOEmily Oster1:00:30

        So I think one thing that people really struggle with is actually sleep training for little kids is it can be a hard, for, like, babies, it can be, like, a hard decision. But, like, it's not that hard to imple-- like, if you're committed to doing it, it's not that hard to implement because your kid's in a crib, and they can't move. A thing it becomes really hard is when people have toddlers, and their kids are coming out of the room, and we sort of-- There's often another period where people are spending a lot of time, a lot of complicated bedtime stuff, and that's actually a very different problem. It's not-- It's more of a, kind of a need for behavioral modification, um, than it is a sort of sle-sleep training. And so, so there I think the main point for many people is just you gotta decide where you're trying to go and then, like, decide a moment that you're gonna consistently implement it. Kids tend to respond really well to consistency.

21. 1:01:19 – 1:06:11

    Does Crying It Out Harm Attachment?

    1. JSJay Shetty1:01:19

       Where did the theory or belief come from that if kids are left crying, that they'll end up feeling abandoned? Where did that come from?

    2. EOEmily Oster1:01:26

       So it's based on s-sort of psychology of attachment theory, a lot of which was developed out of observations of kids who had very, very problematic attachment d- like, childhood. So one, one place this, we saw this was in Romanian orphanages. So there was a period of time in Romania in which there were a lot of children who were unwanted, uh, and they ended up in these orphanages where they were, like, basically just left alone for-You know, with very, very minimal care. There was a lot of abuse, and when researchers came to, like, observe these kids, they found the babies really didn't cry because they sort of had learned nobody would come. And then these kids had problems for very long periods of time. The difference between a baby that is left, you know, alone for days at a, at a time with not enough food and, you know, not-- and sexual and physical abuse and all that stuff, the difference between that and kind of crying for even a, a pretty long period of time for a few nights in the context of an otherwise, like, loving and stable and happy household, like, those are really different things, and I think that, that they sort of know that, but there's kind of a porting of, porting across this, uh, which I just don't think is, is appropriate, but that's where it comes from.

    3. JSJay Shetty1:02:43

       Yeah. Got it. I didn't know that. That's fascinating.

    4. EOEmily Oster1:02:45

       Yeah.

    5. JSJay Shetty1:02:46

       Yeah, it's inc- it's incredible what connections we make when they're not really that connected.

    6. EOEmily Oster1:02:51

       Yeah. I mean, I, I think th-this space is a very, um... this space is a, is a tough one because it, it is hard to hear your kid cry, and it is hard to think about sleep training for a lot of people. Um, it is also incredibly helpful for many families, uh, and I think that's worth noting.

    7. JSJay Shetty1:03:10

       Yeah. Are there any data-driven techniques to help babies stop crying [chuckles] quickly?

    8. EOEmily Oster1:03:16

       Just consistently implement this-

    9. JSJay Shetty1:03:18

       Consistency, yeah

    10. EOEmily Oster1:03:18

        ... multiple ti- you know-

    11. JSJay Shetty1:03:20

        Yeah

    12. EOEmily Oster1:03:20

        ... over time. I think that's, that-- There's no, like, this trick. I mean, it doesn't work for every baby, but it really does work on average.

    13. JSJay Shetty1:03:26

        I wanted to revisit screen time from the point of view of, like, as kids are growing up and not looking at you, you could advise whether it's valuable to look at specific ages or not. But is there any connection now? I, I know earlier you said, well, it was really not about causality or causation. It was just the fact that it's just a different socioeconomic condition and different opportunities and different education level of parents and availability of funds and resources and time and energy and everything else. If that's all it is, is there any data to suggest it matters on any level?

    14. EOEmily Oster1:04:00

        Yeah, I mean, I, I-- The answer is probably yes. This is a space that's really-- where data is really new. So, you know, if you wanted to ask, you know, what's the, what's the impact of being exposed to an iPad at the age of two on, like, high school graduation or college graduation? Like, we don't know because the kids who are exposed at the age of two haven't graduated yet.

    15. JSJay Shetty1:04:19

        Yeah. Yeah.

    16. EOEmily Oster1:04:19

        Um, so we're really in a data poor environment. Um, you know, when we look at younger kids, a lot of the, the sort of questions we would ask are, are about displacement of other activities. So asking, you know, as kids do more and more of these, are- is that kind of displacing things that they should be doing, like, that, that has sort of active positive value, like spending time with their family, going outside? Like, what, you know, what are we replacing is kind of the question I would ask, as opposed to thinking about the screens per se as, like, good or bad. They are an activity which must be displacing something else. And so if they are displacing sleep, for example, that's really bad. We know kids don't sleep enough, and they need a lot of-

    17. JSJay Shetty1:04:58

        Yeah

    18. EOEmily Oster1:04:58

        ... a lot of sleep. There's then a second question as kids get older about kind of the social media, the sort of social media part of screens, where again, we're in a very data poor environment, but I think there's re- you know, reasonable people have reasonable concerns about girls in particular and the kinds of exposures that we get. And then you're layering on top of this, like, a whole other AI thing, which like I don't... That-

    19. JSJay Shetty1:05:24

        Yeah. Yeah

    20. EOEmily Oster1:05:24

        ... that's new.

    21. JSJay Shetty1:05:25

        Yeah.

    22. EOEmily Oster1:05:25

        And so we just-- There's a lot of choices that parents are having to make that are hard because we have no context for them, and, and also our kids are much better at screens than we are. Uh, so a lot, a lot of the tools people would put... You know, people are like, "Well, I add this tool to my kid's iPad to do this and that." It's like-

    23. JSJay Shetty1:05:44

        [laughs]

    24. EOEmily Oster1:05:44

        ... like, they know-- They-- Are you kidding?

    25. JSJay Shetty1:05:46

        They don't... Yeah, yeah. That's-

    26. EOEmily Oster1:05:46

        Are you kidding me?

    27. JSJay Shetty1:05:47

        Yeah. They're the hacker, yeah.

    28. EOEmily Oster1:05:47

        You know? It's like my, my-- You know, these, like, your kid's school is putting up, like, these restrictions. Like, you know, they can't play this game, and they're like, "Oh, I just went to the website that's, like, called, like, My School Blocked blah blah blah."

    29. JSJay Shetty1:05:59

        Yeah. [chuckles]

    30. EOEmily Oster1:05:59

        "And that's where you get the games." [laughs]
22. 1:06:11 – 1:08:56

    Social Media Restriction For Kids

    1. JSJay Shetty1:06:11

       I'm a, I'm a, I'm a at least a supporter of most of or all of Jonathan Haidt's considerations around that. As at an older age, like, I just feel like there's no need to be on social media before a certain age.

    2. EOEmily Oster1:06:23

       Yeah. I-

    3. JSJay Shetty1:06:23

       There's, like, there's no need for schools to have phones. Like, I just don't... You know, we all went to schools without phones and-

    4. EOEmily Oster1:06:29

       Yes. I think there's a few of these things which are... Like, these things all have, like, little sort of different pieces. I think, like, phones in schools, like, yeah, that's distracting.

    5. JSJay Shetty1:06:36

       Yeah.

    6. EOEmily Oster1:06:36

       Like, you don't need a distracting activity.

    7. JSJay Shetty1:06:37

       There's no need, yeah.

    8. EOEmily Oster1:06:38

       No need for that. I think the social media stuff, I also agree. Like, there should be some sort of thought about age. It's maybe gonna be different for different kids. I think there should also be a fair amount of, of kind of scaffolding by parents once your kid gets these social media tools. Like, you don't s- You know, it's like a car, right? You don't just hand them the keys and say, "Enjoy." You, like, teach them, and I think this is kinda like a car. Like, you gotta be willing to take the keys away. You gotta be willing to, like, help them learn, you know, what's the reasonable way to interact with this. Um, I will say, I think that the, relative to the kids who are now, like, eighteen, nineteen, the kids who are now thirteen, fourteen, at least in some cases, I think are, are actually much less into this. There was sort of a period of time when everyone had Instagram when they were twelve, and this has actually dialed down a bit.

    9. JSJay Shetty1:07:24

       Interesting.

    10. EOEmily Oster1:07:24

        Um, which, you know, maybe it's just reflecting my, my kids' school, but I don't know.

    11. JSJay Shetty1:07:30

        Yeah. There's, there's-- It's different between just having screen time and them being on social media and being exposed-

    12. EOEmily Oster1:07:35

        Totally different things

    13. JSJay Shetty1:07:35

        ... to other people's lives and-

    14. EOEmily Oster1:07:36

        Yeah

    15. JSJay Shetty1:07:36

        ... messaging, and I think they're two totally different conversations. And I, I like the way you just said it, that if you looked at getting a phone like getting a car, and if we were able to start helping society think that way, then it becomes a point of, I remember wanting a car and being, like, excited, nervous that I had to pass a test-

    16. EOEmily Oster1:07:54

        [chuckles]

    17. JSJay Shetty1:07:54

        ... preparing for the test. You know, all the levels that you go through to get there, and then you have your first accident, and-

    18. EOEmily Oster1:08:01

        [laughs]

    19. JSJay Shetty1:08:01

        ... you know, like, that's scary.

    20. EOEmily Oster1:08:02

        Get your first ticket.

    21. JSJay Shetty1:08:03

        Y-yeah, you get your first ticket.

    22. EOEmily Oster1:08:04

        It's like [chuckles] yes.

    23. JSJay Shetty1:08:05

        It's like, you know, it's, it's-But it, it feels like a whole journey to get it rather than now a phone's almost like this expected-

    24. EOEmily Oster1:08:11

        Yeah

    25. JSJay Shetty1:08:11

        ... piece of life that you have no idea what it's exposing you to or your kids to, and, and it's a tough conversation with parents. I love the scaffolding idea, but I do think that it's hard when it's like, "Oh, well, your friend's parents like gave them a phone at 12."

    26. EOEmily Oster1:08:25

        Right.

    27. JSJay Shetty1:08:25

        And then, "But I'm waiting till you till 14." And they're like, "But wait a minute, everyone at school had one at 10." And i- whereas if there's just rules that are not parent set-

    28. EOEmily Oster1:08:33

        Yes

    29. JSJay Shetty1:08:33

        ... there's a sense of-

    30. EOEmily Oster1:08:33

        I think parents could use help on this for sure.
23. 1:08:56 – 1:11:17

    The Truth About Childhood Vaccines

    1. JSJay Shetty1:08:56

       couple more things I wanted to talk to you about. This one was about, uh, vaccines.

    2. EOEmily Oster1:09:00

       Ah, yes.

    3. JSJay Shetty1:09:00

       Uh, because I know there's a lot of conversation about that. So vaccines and CDC guidelines change over time, of course.

    4. EOEmily Oster1:09:05

       Mm.

    5. JSJay Shetty1:09:06

       Uh, how would you consider parents think about navigating that?

    6. EOEmily Oster1:09:10

       I think parents should vaccinate their, their children, um, on the whole. I mean, I think that, you know, the AAP has a set of guidelines. For many years the AAP, the American A- Academy of Pediatrics, and the CDC had the same vaccine guidelines, and they are the sort of primary childhood vaccine series are, have been in force for decades and have been r- are really safe and effective and et cetera, et cetera. And over the past year w- with the current administration, we have dialed way back the number of vaccines that the CDC has recommended. Um, I think there's a fair amount of holdover from COVID where people were uncomfortable with some of the way that the COVID vaccine was pushed on people, and I think some of that is actually f- fair. Probably we do not currently need all healthy children to get a COVID booster. Europe doesn't do that. I mean, I think that's a perfectly reasonable position. What is not a reasonable position is people shouldn't get the measles vaccine, and so I think for, for parents it's kind of thinking about, um, you know, what is the e- if you wanna think about what the evidence says about these vaccines, these vaccines are really good at preventing disease, and they are really safe and have been in use for, for a decade. So I, I find the current vaccine conversation really difficult to engage with because it feels like, w- what, are you kidding me? Like, kids are gonna die of the measles? Like, kids are gonna die of the me- two kids died of the measles last year. More kids are gonna die of the measles this year. In a single week in January 2026, there were more measles cases in the US than all but a small handful of years over the past two decades.

    7. JSJay Shetty1:10:48

       Because people chose not to.

    8. EOEmily Oster1:10:50

       Yeah. So if you look at the graph, basically we had like 260 cases of measles in a week. In almost all full years in the past two decades, we had like far fewer than that. So all... Because people stop vaccinating, and then measles is super, super contagious, and so if you get a small amount of outbreaks, then the outbreak grows, and we had a lot of cases. And I just think, you know, that means kids are gonna die of measles who didn't need to die of measles, and that just feels terrible.

    9. JSJay Shetty1:11:16

       Yeah.

24. 1:11:17 – 1:13:51

    Are Kids Being Overmedicated?

    1. JSJay Shetty1:11:17

       Do you think kids are being overmedicated in general?

    2. EOEmily Oster1:11:20

       I mean, I think it's a totally different-

    3. JSJay Shetty1:11:21

       Yeah

    4. EOEmily Oster1:11:22

       ... question.

    5. JSJay Shetty1:11:22

       Question. Yeah, yeah.

    6. EOEmily Oster1:11:22

       Yeah.

    7. JSJay Shetty1:11:22

       Totally different. Yeah.

    8. EOEmily Oster1:11:23

       Um, it's interesting. I mean, I think there's a lot of probably to some extent. I, I think there... If we look at the data on something like ADHD and we look at, you know, what's happened to those kind of prescriptions over time, they've gone up a lot, and we do see some evidence that those are increasing. Those are higher for, say, kids who are younger when they are, uh, first in kindergarten. And I think that's reflecting our expectation of kids in schools, which is totally different than it once was and particularly probably poorly suited, especially for, for boys. Uh, and so if we sort of think like, okay, we're gonna bring a bunch of kids in who kind of aren't that great at sitting still, and when they're not that great at sitting still, which is totally age-appropriate behavior, we're then gonna give them something that makes them sit still. I think there's a good argument that we've been overusing that, that approach.

    9. JSJay Shetty1:12:15

       Yeah. No, no, and totally two different-

    10. EOEmily Oster1:12:17

        Yeah

    11. JSJay Shetty1:12:17

        ... two different con-

    12. EOEmily Oster1:12:17

        Which is a totally different than vaccines

    13. JSJay Shetty1:12:18

        ... totally two different conversations.

    14. EOEmily Oster1:12:20

        Yeah, yeah.

    15. JSJay Shetty1:12:20

        Yeah. I th- I think it's become hard. It's, it's almost hard for... There's some people who never question it at all, and then there I think some people who question it because there's a lack of trust or there's, for example, like you see the overmedication, you see the rise, and then you go, "Wait a minute. There's so many updates in what's happening here, and is it really helping, and where's it..." You know, so I think there's a lack of trust. There's curiosity. There's, you know, there's, there's all sorts of versions of it on the spectrum of why and why we disagree or where they sit.

    16. EOEmily Oster1:12:48

        Yeah. And I, I think the other... I mean, the other thing about vaccines is, like, we haven't done a great job of helping parents understand, you know, and like which vaccines are most important. I basically think everybody should get all of the vaccines on the schedule because they're all safe, but I, I'm curious whether we should be having more of the conversation of, okay, look, if you were only gonna do... You know, there's a real hesitancy for good reason to have a conversation that's like, "Look, if you were only gonna do three, these are your three."

    17. JSJay Shetty1:13:14

        Mm-hmm.

    18. EOEmily Oster1:13:15

        Um, and I see why we don't wanna have that conversation because it implies that, you know, maybe there's some risk to these other things, which there are not. But it could encourage people to get some subset of the vaccines. Uh, it feels like such a complicated messaging, messaging play. Um, you know, if we really think the most important thing is for people to get, like, the measles vaccine and the TDAP vaccine and the flu vaccine, like, maybe we should be, like, pushing the rotavirus vaccine last even though that is a very good vaccine. I don't know. This is very complicated.

    19. JSJay Shetty1:13:47

        Yeah.

    20. EOEmily Oster1:13:47

        I wish people would just get all the vaccines.

    21. JSJay Shetty1:13:49

        Got it. Understood. You

25. 1:13:51 – 1:16:04

    The Many Paths to Parenthood

    1. JSJay Shetty1:13:51

       have written, Emily, four books on parenting-

    2. EOEmily Oster1:13:54

       Yeah

    3. JSJay Shetty1:13:54

       ... I believe. If you had three messages for parents that you felt they really needed to hear-

    4. EOEmily Oster1:13:59

       So-

    5. JSJay Shetty1:13:59

       ... what would they be?

    6. EOEmily Oster1:14:00

       One, um, is that there are a lot of right ways to do it. I think that's probably the core message of my second book, um, which is, you know, here are some data on stuff, but in almost every choice you're gonna make-There are a lot of different good options, and you just gotta find the one that, that works for you. So I think that's one pretty core message. I think a second key insight in everything I write is that correlation is not causality, and you should be really, really skeptical of a lot of the [chuckles] evidence that people tell you 'cause a lot of it is, is correlation. Um, I guess the third insight is I think people spend too little time thinking in advance about their plans and too much time in therefore in sort of reactive, um, reacting to things that, that happen. And we're very reluctant to put time in up front because we're busy, but there are many situations in parenting in which putting some time in up front thinking about how you wanna approach something is going to save you a lot of time and conflict later.

    7. JSJay Shetty1:15:08

       I love that. Yeah, I, I love all three of those, and that last one especially. I just think we think... Uh, like I always hear the advice of you're never ready to have kids, which I agree with.

    8. EOEmily Oster1:15:18

       Sure.

    9. JSJay Shetty1:15:18

       Like, that makes full sense. But at the same time, you're definitely not ready if you never thought about it. Like, like that, you know?

    10. EOEmily Oster1:15:25

        You could never be. It's like you could be more ready.

    11. JSJay Shetty1:15:26

        Yeah, to- yeah, exactly.

    12. EOEmily Oster1:15:27

        You could be more ready.

    13. JSJay Shetty1:15:28

        Yeah. Exactly.

    14. EOEmily Oster1:15:28

        Because-

    15. JSJay Shetty1:15:28

        Which applies to everything, right? It's just that mindset of, "Oh, you never know what it's gonna be like." And it's like, you're right. Yeah, I definitely... Like, as someone who doesn't have kids, I have no idea what it's gonna be like to be a parent. I fully hold my hands up, I lose, I, you know, I get it. But I can think, I can prepare, I can try.

    16. EOEmily Oster1:15:44

        Yeah.

    17. JSJay Shetty1:15:44

        And, and I probably will still fail and make mistakes, and I think that's, I think that's the problem. We think planning means perfection.

    18. EOEmily Oster1:15:50

        As opposed to...

    19. JSJay Shetty1:15:51

        As opposed to planning just means planning.

    20. EOEmily Oster1:15:53

        Planning, yeah.

    21. JSJay Shetty1:15:53

        And, and that's all it is, and it doesn't mean it's gonna be perfectly executed.

    22. EOEmily Oster1:15:57

        Absolutely.

    23. JSJay Shetty1:15:58

        Uh, Emily, last two segments.

    24. EOEmily Oster1:16:00

        Yes.

    25. JSJay Shetty1:16:00

        We have a this or that.

    26. EOEmily Oster1:16:01

        Okay.

    27. JSJay Shetty1:16:02

        And then our final five, which we do with every guest on

26. 1:16:04 – 1:23:46

    This or That: Parenting Edition

    1. JSJay Shetty1:16:04

       the show. So this or that parenting version. Gentle parenting or helicopter parenting?

    2. EOEmily Oster1:16:10

       I don't like either of these.

    3. JSJay Shetty1:16:12

       Explain. Why?

    4. EOEmily Oster1:16:13

       I mean, I think gentle parenting, as a lot of people have interpreted it, is kind of permissive parenting, is sort of like, "I'm not gonna put any boundaries," and I think that's really problematic.

    5. JSJay Shetty1:16:23

       So what is good gentle parenting, or what is the version?

    6. EOEmily Oster1:16:25

       I think, uh, there's a good version of kind of punishment f- f... Parenting without rules and without consequences, which is much more about just setting boundaries. It ends up looking really similar to parenting with f- rules and consequences.

    7. JSJay Shetty1:16:42

       Yeah.

    8. EOEmily Oster1:16:42

       But you know, the kind of like saying what the boundary is, following through on the boundary. That's a very clear part of almost any evidence-based parenting approach. But gentle parenting, as many people seem to interpret it, I think does not, does not work. Uh, so I think I'm gonna go with helicopter parenting, which is being over-involved, um, which I also think can be quite problematic, uh, but perhaps less so.

    9. JSJay Shetty1:17:05

       What is a proven approach to parenting?

    10. EOEmily Oster1:17:07

        So I think the, the best sort of evidence-based approaches we have to, like, sort of behavior modification have... are, are things where you have a clear set of expectations where, you know, when you... there's a behavior, kind of a behavioral issue, there's a clear set of kind of expectations, consequences, uh, and, and rewards. That's often what we see supported best in the, in the data. So something like One-Two-Three Magic or one of these-

    11. JSJay Shetty1:17:33

        What's One-Two-Three Magic?

    12. EOEmily Oster1:17:34

        So One-Two-Three Magic is a, is one of these sort of evidence-based parenting approaches, which is just, it's a particular way to kind of scaffold. Like when somebody, when your kid does something bad, you give them like three warnings, and then there's a timeout. It's very effective.

    13. JSJay Shetty1:17:48

        Right. Yeah. I mean, it, it seems to follow the common sense of what life looks like.

    14. EOEmily Oster1:17:52

        Yes.

    15. JSJay Shetty1:17:52

        Life is choices and actions. They have consequences, and then they see the re-

    16. EOEmily Oster1:17:56

        Yeah

    17. JSJay Shetty1:17:56

        ... like that's kind of what-

    18. EOEmily Oster1:17:58

        That's what it works as an adult.

    19. JSJay Shetty1:17:59

        Y- yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

    20. EOEmily Oster1:18:00

        Yes. Yes.

    21. JSJay Shetty1:18:00

        It's a... As an adult, that is life.

    22. EOEmily Oster1:18:02

        Yep.

    23. JSJay Shetty1:18:02

        Yeah. Got it. Natural remedies or medicated products?

    24. EOEmily Oster1:18:06

        Generally medicated products. Um, I think that there's a lot that we, uh, have learned over time about, say, antibiotics, which are the reason that many people are not dead. Uh, so I'm gonna go with medicine, although there are certainly places where we sort of overuse antibiotics, and we'd be better off just, like, not using them because people don't have a bacterial infection. But overall, medicated products.

    25. JSJay Shetty1:18:32

        A strict schedule or flexibility?

    26. EOEmily Oster1:18:36

        Can both work. Personally-

    27. JSJay Shetty1:18:38

        Explain, yeah

    28. EOEmily Oster1:18:39

        ... so personally, like my family has a [chuckles] very rigid schedule, one might say too rigid.

    29. JSJay Shetty1:18:45

        Because of you.

    30. EOEmily Oster1:18:45

        Um, but that is... No, actually, I'm much more because of... I mean, yes, it, it's a combination of me and my husband, but I think that he is even worse than I am. [laughs] But like that is what works for us. Like, for us and our kids, like we really, we like to know what's expected. Like, on the weekends, like we know what we're gonna do. There are calendar invites. Like if we're going on a hike, my husband puts a calendar invite with the drive time in it because he's insane.
27. 1:23:46 – 1:28:31

    Emily on Final Five

    1. JSJay Shetty1:23:46

       to back. So we end every episode of On Purpose with a final five. These questions have to be answered in one sentence maximum. And so Emily, this is your final five. The first question is, what is the best parenting advice you ever heard or received?

    2. EOEmily Oster1:23:58

       Try not to think about it.

    3. JSJay Shetty1:24:00

       Question number two, what is the worst parenting advice you've ever heard or received?

    4. EOEmily Oster1:24:04

       Don't put mittens on your child because she'll never learn to use her hands.

    5. JSJay Shetty1:24:08

       [laughs] That's brilliant. That's-

    6. EOEmily Oster1:24:10

       It was my mom said it.

    7. JSJay Shetty1:24:11

       Oh, don't worry.

    8. EOEmily Oster1:24:11

       My mom was so great, but, uh, that was bad advice.

    9. JSJay Shetty1:24:14

       That's hilarious.

    10. EOEmily Oster1:24:14

        That was bad advice.

    11. JSJay Shetty1:24:15

        That's so funny. Uh, did you ever follow that? No.

    12. EOEmily Oster1:24:17

        No.

    13. JSJay Shetty1:24:17

        No, no, no.

    14. EOEmily Oster1:24:18

        It's ridiculous.

    15. JSJay Shetty1:24:19

        I was like, yeah.

    16. EOEmily Oster1:24:19

        I did look it up.

    17. JSJay Shetty1:24:20

        Yeah, yeah.

    18. EOEmily Oster1:24:20

        I like went so far as to research it. [laughs]

    19. JSJay Shetty1:24:22

        That's good.

    20. EOEmily Oster1:24:23

        'Cause I was... That's what it's like to have a baby.

    21. JSJay Shetty1:24:25

        Question number three, something you used to believe was true about parenting but now you disagree with.

    22. EOEmily Oster1:24:31

        That if you do the same thing for two kids, you get the same outcome.

    23. JSJay Shetty1:24:34

        Hmm.

    24. EOEmily Oster1:24:35

        No.

    25. JSJay Shetty1:24:36

        Fascinating, yeah. You have to adapt. You have to-

    26. EOEmily Oster1:24:38

        You get... Kids are n- ... It's so easy to think you did a great job on the first one and then do... Woof.

    27. JSJay Shetty1:24:43

        [laughs]

    28. EOEmily Oster1:24:44

        Uh, yeah. And then, and then they're just different kids need different things.

    29. JSJay Shetty1:24:47

        Yeah. Uh, question number four, is there a list of three qualities you try and instill in your kids, like three things you think are universally important?

    30. EOEmily Oster1:24:56

        In my own kids, yes. Um, I think res- like respect for others, following through on your commitments, uh, and you trying to pursue excellence in the things that you choose to do.

Episode duration: 1:28:31