Jay Shetty PodcastWhy Making REAL Friends As an Adult is So Hard (8 Powerful Ways To Make it Easier!)
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60 min read · 12,239 words- 0:00 – 1:50
Intro
- JSJay Shetty
Welcome back to On Purpose. Today, we're talking about something that affects every single one of us, friendship. As kids, making friends seemed effortless, but why does it feel so hard to make and maintain friendships as adults? I get it. Life gets busy, we move, we change, and suddenly, finding people who truly get us feels like an almost impossible challenge. But the truth is, no matter how busy or how independent we are, we all need connection. We need people who challenge us, support us, and remind us that we're not alone. So in this special episode, I've gathered insights from some of the best minds out there to help you build meaningful friendships, strengthen your connections, and create a support system that truly lasts. Because the right relationships can change your life, and I believe everyone deserves to have those. Let's start with a challenge so many of us face but rarely talk about. Why is it so hard to make friends as an adult? When we're younger, we see the same people every day. We share experiences, and we grow together. But as we get older, life pulls us in different directions, and suddenly, finding and keeping close friends feels like an uphill battle. To help us break it down, we have Mel Robbins, bestselling author, speaker, and expert on human behavior. She's here to help us understand why adult friendships feel so different, why connection matters more than ever, and how we can take control of building meaningful relationships. Let's dive in. Mel, why is it so hard to make friends as we get older?
- MRMel Robbins
There is a massive shift that happens
- 1:50 – 11:04
Why is It So Hard To Make Friends as an Adult?
- MRMel Robbins
in adult friendship when you hit 20 that nobody sees coming. The rules of friendship completely change when your 20s hit, and I'm gonna explain the rules when you're little, and then we're gonna talk about the rules of adult friendship. So when you're little, your entire life is organized around friendship and making it possible, 'cause you're with people your age all the time in class and sports.
- JSJay Shetty
So true.
- MRMel Robbins
You move in groups, 'cause you're on teams, and you're in neighborhoods, and you're always together. You also celebrate the same milestones. You're hitting the same birthdays, you're all talking about the next level of school or the this thing this summer, you're watching the same movies, 'cause you're all the same age, and so there's so much synergy and relevance, and the conditions to spend a ton of time together are there. Then you get to university, and you spend even more time together. And what happens when you hit your 20s, right, is that it moves from this big group sport where you just kind of expect to be around your friends all the time. You expect the group to get invited, because that's what's always happened. You expect to see them all the time, 'cause you do always see them all the time. But then your 20s hit, the rules change, and what I call the great scattering happens. Everybody moves in different directions, and friendship goes from group sport to individual sport. You can no longer expect friendship. You are no longer part of a group that is expected to be invited everywhere, because everybody scatters, and suddenly, everybody's on different timelines, you're in different cities, you're moving in different directions, so there's no way to locate yourself inside your friend group. And the only thing that's keeping you together from your friends from when you were little is a text chain that starts to go quieter and quieter and quieter as people start to focus on the people in front of them.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And that brings me to two major shifts that I want you to embrace using the let them theory. Number one, you can no longer expect friendship. You have to take a way more flexible approach and a more proactive approach. You gotta let people come and go.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
Super important. And then you gotta let me take the actions to create the friendships. I gotta go first. I gotta be the one planning. I gotta seek out new people. But there are three pillars of adult friendship based on research that are also gonna help you understand that when people come and go in your life, 99% of the time, it's not personal, and you actually haven't lost them as a friend.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MRMel Robbins
One of the three pillars is missing. So the three things that need to be required to have a friendship happen are the same three things that were around all the time when you were a kid. Number one, proximity. Proximity matters tremendously. Proximity means who are you actually physically next to. In fact, they've done research, Jay. If you and I were in a dorm, and we lived across the hall, I don't, I don't remember the percentages exactly, but it's, like, 90% chance we're gonna be friends.
- JSJay Shetty
Interesting.
- MRMel Robbins
The poor person at the end of the hallway, 10% chance that we're gonna be friends with them because of proximity. Even a matter of 50 feet makes a difference. And so when you were little, you were in proximity to people your age all the time.
- JSJay Shetty
All day.
- MRMel Robbins
Exactly. The research also shows that to have, as an adult, a kind of casual friend, you need to spend approximately 70 hours with somebody.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
To have a close friend, 200 hours.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
So when you're an adult, that creates a big problem, because who are you spending all your time with once you're 20? The American Time Study shows that it's with people you work with. So why aren't we best friends with people at work? Because you have proximity, and you're spending a lot of time together, but here's the thing, timing.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MRMel Robbins
When you were little, you were in the same timing of life with everybody.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
When you hit your 20s and it's now individual, everybody's on different timelines. Some of your friends are getting married, some are going to graduate school, some are now pursuing jobs, other people are moving out of the city, into the city. Everybody's timing is now different. And this also explains why you're almost never best friends with people at work, because the timing is off. You're sitting next to people that are in very different times of their life. You may like them a lot, and you may be friends, but you never spend time outside of work because they're at home with their family, and you're going out with your buddies your age on the weekendsAnd then that brings me to the third thing that needs to be present for a friendship to truly click, and that's energy
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MRMel Robbins
And the thing about energy is it changes, and you can have fantastic energy with somebody, and then if you decide you're not drinking anymore, the energy's off
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
If you decide to get really focused on fitness, the energy's off. If you have very different political beliefs, the energy's off. It's not personal
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MRMel Robbins
It's one of these three pillars, and it has helped me so profoundly, Jay, to realize that people come and go, and it's a beautiful thing, and you should let them
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- MRMel Robbins
And you should really... If you have a friendship that starts to dissipate, right, ask yourself, before you blame them or you blame you, are any one of these three pillars missing? Are we not near each other anymore? Is the timing of our lives off? Is there just something about the energy that hasn't clicked? Because you can't force those things. But what I've found is that when you recognize that those are really important factors to your connection to someone else, that if a friendship starts to fade, for me it's so easy to say, "Let them," and I don't wish anybody bad. I literally wish people well. Because the other thing that I've learned, and, you know, being 56, I've had a lot of friends come and go in different phases of my life, that you would be startled by how many people from your past that you no longer, quote, "consider friends" 'cause you haven't seen them in a very long time or things just got weird, if you actually called them, they'd pick up the phone
- JSJay Shetty
They would.
- 11:04 – 22:04
Understanding the Loneliness Crisis
- JSJay Shetty
of emotions they'd like to experience with people. So it could be things like adventure, discovery, comfort, humor, love. Whatever it may be, just write down a list. And then for each one, write down the name of a different person ideally that fulfills that need in your life. Because often I feel like we put a lot of pressure on our romantic partners or one person in our life to be all these things, and the truth is, no matter how phenomenal anyone is or how much they love us, they just can't be that. And so if you have, "Hey, I've reached out to this friend when I want some adventure because they love it too. If I want to see a sports game, this is the person I reach out to." And then do the same in the opposite way. Which one of those do you fulfill for your friends? What emotions do you help other people create? And I feel like if you look at friendship as a spectrum, as this broad set of connection points rather than like, "This is my best friend," as you were saying, or, "This is my number one friend," and we get away from hierarchy and we move more into a spectrum, I feel like-That mixed in with the text a day starts creating a much more healthier network of what connection means as well. It's also not just the same person doing the same thing every week.
- AHDr. Andrew Huberman
Yeah, I love the, uh, the idea that by staying in contact regularly, we don't have to get caught up.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- AHDr. Andrew Huberman
And that then we can just drop into what's most meaningful on that particular day, and maybe even have more available to us to have a new experience.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- AHDr. Andrew Huberman
Right? As opposed to just catching up. And then of course, there are those friends that we catch up with, and it feels like it was just yesterday.
- JSJay Shetty
Definitely.
- AHDr. Andrew Huberman
But I'd be willing to bet that those were people that you spent a lot of day-to-day time activity with. You knew them-
- JSJay Shetty
At some point
- AHDr. Andrew Huberman
... from university, or you, you spent a lot of time just in the kind of everyday shared experience for a while. And then when you see each other again, it's like being right back there. The neuroscience of this hasn't been explored nearly enough, but given that our very own surgeon general highlighted the loneliness crisis as one of the major crises in the world today, I think that in terms of simple solutions to big-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm
- AHDr. Andrew Huberman
... important problems, developing more connectivity with people through simple practices, and again, and we're talking about a text here. I mean, I will be the first to say that if you can hop on a phone call or you can get on a f- you know, a video chat with somebody, that would certainly be better, but many people just don't have time for that.
- JSJay Shetty
For sure.
- AHDr. Andrew Huberman
So in terms of spending time with people in, in a deeper and richer way, you know, get- getting the, the drop-in time, as it were. I love that you mentioned adventure. I'm almost 49. I turn 49 in just over a month, and, um, I would say that the first 49 years of my life have been marked by a real thirst for adventure, a ton of curiosity. Now I really-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- AHDr. Andrew Huberman
... feel myself entering a completely different season of my life. [laughs] I'm sort of hoping this would eventually happen, um, in part because, um, you know, I took some, some kinda dangerous turns. You know, I took risks with my, with my life at points where I didn't really intend to do that, but, you know, you seek enough adventure, you're gonna-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- AHDr. Andrew Huberman
... you're gonna find adventure.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- AHDr. Andrew Huberman
And you have to be quite careful. I have friends with whom I had tons of adventure, and then now the adventures are, are far more, uh, docile-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm
- AHDr. Andrew Huberman
... and, and quiet.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- AHDr. Andrew Huberman
Um, and of course, um, the internal adventure is real as well. I think that friends with whom we can just be one version of ourselves are wonderful. Friends with whom we can be all versions of ourself is, uh, especially wonderful. That's the acceptance piece. Uh, typically I think we look more for that in romantic relationship, this notion of just, like, safety and acceptance being hallmarks of, of healthy romantic relationship. I think those are also the hallmarks of healthy friendship. It's just that with friendship, we can be a bit more segmented in terms of the number of different aspects of self that we need, um, safety and acceptance with.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- AHDr. Andrew Huberman
Um, I think with friendship also, you know, I, I've found it to be the case that really knowing what's going on with people has become a li- little bit more difficult. There's this, there's this kind of odd thing, right? We're, we're, we're more interconnected in terms of availability of communication, but we're less aware of what's really going on for people. In fact, on the way here, I had a call with a, with a friend, and their headset was making a lot of noise. And so, um, we agreed, uh, they said, "Hey, how about I just turn mute mine?" And for the next two minutes, I'm not kidding, this is how they, this is what they said. Um, they said, "Just tell me, like, what's, what's on your heart or what's in your heart." Hopefully it wasn't on your heart.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- AHDr. Andrew Huberman
What's in your heart? And I, I was like, "Oh wow, that's tough. You know, that's tough." I mean, I, I... Okay. And I, and I know that they're listening, and then but it's very silent on the other end, and I'm kinda speaking into a vacuum there, um, because they're not hearing anything. And then had maybe just two minutes before we curled up the hill because of the reception in, uh, the area that we're in, as you know, is always complicated, um, to just get feedback. It was very interesting. Like, I, I realized that I felt close to them before, but just the notion that they would ask me that. How do I feel? Not what's going on lately, not, you know, am I feeling good or bad, like evaluation of, of feelings, but just, like, what's going on. And I stumbled a bit at first, but I can realize in, in, in saying it now, like, I'm quite moved by the fact that they would ask that-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm
- AHDr. Andrew Huberman
... of all things, as opposed to, like, what's going on? What's your next podcast about?
- 22:04 – 23:30
Let Joy Guide Your Friendships
- JSJay Shetty
our life is made up of. Like, life isn't just... We're not just surrounded by people that help us grow, because we're obviously taking from them as well, and we don't want to be in a position where we're only giving. We want to be able to grow. So it's almost like we all have, we have two sets of groups in our life at any real given time. Would you agree with that or?
- AHDr. Andrew Huberman
Well, I would just say trust, trust your joy.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- AHDr. Andrew Huberman
I think joy is a great GPS. And so, yeah, I'm not in any way suggesting be around people only who fuel you and who help you become you at your best.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- AHDr. Andrew Huberman
I'm simply saying it's, it's about what's healthy. It's about your joy. It's about being around people who you vibe with, who understand you, who have similar values, who support you, and, and who encourage you.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- AHDr. Andrew Huberman
So I think your community is definitely a, a key, an absolutely key form of wealth.
- JSJay Shetty
And you mentioned this earlier, I want to come back to it, was this three great friends rule, and I love that you talk about having three great friends. I heard recently somewhere, I can't remember. I was, I was browsing on social media and someone said, "You need 3:00 AM friends as well," like friends you can call at 3:00 AM and they'll pick up the phone. How do you know? What is the quality of a great long-term friend? What, what is a great friend? I'm not sure we even know anymore.
- AHDr. Andrew Huberman
A great friend is someone you can be yourself with and they still love you. A great friend is... I, I had a line in the book, you know, you're in a foreign country and 3:00 AM,
- 23:30 – 25:58
What Makes a Truly Great Friend?
- AHDr. Andrew Huberman
they hop on a plane and they come get you. A great friend is someone who you can laugh with. Great friend is someone who you're going through your most difficult times and they'll listen to you for hours. A great friend is, um, yeah, someone who, who accepts you, someone who helps you be seen. A, a great friend is someone who when you're with them, you feel joyful versus depleted. So I think it's really important, you know, in this world where we are maximalists. We want, we want to be all things to all people. We want to have so many different friends. Focus on three great friends.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- AHDr. Andrew Huberman
We want to read 100 books. Master three books. Maybe it's Jobs's, uh, Isaacson's autobiography on Jobs, like you mentioned. Maybe it's The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran. Maybe it's
- SPSpeaker
The Giving Tree by Shel Silverstein. Maybe it's Meditations of Marcus Aurelius, one of my favorite books of all time, you know. But I think just being a min-minimalist is, is so powerful. Build your life around a few things. Even in work, I mentioned it. Rather than pushing out a thousand pieces of mediocrity, do one thing incredibly well, you know, even if it takes five years, 10 years. There's a chapter called Make Your Project X in The Wealth Money Can't Buy, and the example is the Duomo in Milan. You know how long they spent on it? In this world where we wanna do something in an hour, and then get the rewards, or maybe a week, maybe a month, it took 600 years to create the Duomo. Th-these are values of a unspoken age. 600 years of calibrating, refining, optimizing to create the Duomo, and so that's what a Project X is. Rather than doing lots of things, you do one thing. Maybe it's one work of art. Michelangelo took four years of working on the chapel of the Sistine Ceiling, but he got the job done. So minimalism i-is, is very, very powerful.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm. And one of the things you said there, this idea of we're almost trying to be so many things to so many people that it's hard to find
- 25:58 – 29:52
How to Create Perfect Moments Together
- JSJay Shetty
the right friends. One of the things you talk about is do not be a doormat, and I find that that becomes that people-pleasing mentality, that ability to, "I can mold, and I can be whatever you want me to be, and I can be lots of things." And we feel validated that way, but in the end, we're just becoming a doormat. Everyone crosses over a doormat, and a doormat welcomes everyone in the same way. So when I read that, I was like, how do we be kind but not be a doormat? How do we be service-oriented but not be a doormat? How do we balance that art of being welcoming but not being a doormat?
- SPSpeaker
Well, I, you know, for, for many years, like you, Jay, I've talked about the power of just being... Of being kind.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
You know, and it sounds so simple, but being kind. Staying in a hotel, remembering there's someone cl- going to clean my room after I leave the room, so put the bath, uh, the towels in the bathtub, straighten out the bed, leave the room service tray clean. Little acts of kindness not only are a gift you give to someone else, it's a gift you give to yourself. You respect yourself more. So then people come up... S-sometimes say to me, "Well, if I'm kind, people will take advantage of me." And I would say, "People will only take advantage of you if you allow people to take advantage of you." Let's not confuse kindness with weakness.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
There is a time to always be kind, but that doesn't mean you let people walk over you.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
And that makes me think of another idea that I write about, which is the importance of, you know, in this world right now, it's so easy to live the same year 80 times and call it a life.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
And there's one chapter called Be a Perfect Moment Creator, and the story I tell in there is of Eugene Kelly. Uh, O'Kelly, excuse me. And Eugene O'Kelly used to be the former CEO of KPMG, the accounting behemoth, and one day he walked into his doctor's office to get the results of a routine medical, and the doctor came out with an expression you never wanna see on the face of your doctor when you go to get your results. And he was told he had 90 days left to live. He had an inoperable brain tumor. So confronted with his mortality, he realized for the first time he had never, in all his years as a corporate titan, he'd never taken his wife to lunch. He had missed so many Christmas concerts of his daughter. He had never spent time with his friends walking through Central Park and having conversations, and so he decided to re-engineer his last 90 days, and he said, "I wanted to become a perfect moment creator." And he spent those last 90 days... He actually died roughly 90 days after, um, the report from his doctor. But I think that's so powerful. You know, when you're with your family, when you're with your work, when you're with yourself, e-each and every day, find some way to create a perfect moment. Maybe it's giving a gift to someone through a compliment. Maybe it's taking some time to do something that fills you with joy. But being a perfect moment creator, I think, is a form of wealth money can't buy.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm. Have you ever thought about what makes a truly good friend? Not just someone you can grab lunch with, but the kind of friend who truly sees you, the version of yourself you might even forget sometimes. Trevor Noah has spent years navigating relationships in a world full of unpredictability, and his take on friendship is powerful. He shares how his closest friends act as his anchor, helping him reconnect with himself, especially in the loneliness of stand-up comedy and touring. Let's take a look. How... A, who are the friends? What, what are you talking to them about? Like, how... What's your consistency? I'm, I'm fascinated by that because-
- SPSpeaker
So who are the friends? Predominantly, my friends are
- 29:52 – 40:52
Why Friendship Is a Choice
- SPSpeaker
from South Africa. Um, friends I met doing different things. All, all organic meetings, which, um, I'm a sucker for. I'm terrible at making friends, partially because I, I don't trust people easily. I exist in a world where I can be friendly with many people, but-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... you know, it, it takes me a while to accept that this person is actually a part of my life.
- JSJay Shetty
Right.
- SPSpeaker
And I think for a long time it, it was because, and still is sometimes, because, A, I have an idea of putting something on that person-
- TNTrevor Noah
Way I may need them means that they may disappoint me.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
And then on the other side of it, them needing me means I could be in the position to disappoint them.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
You know?
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
And, and, and so as we learn people, I find we learn what they can and cannot do. We learn who they are or are not, and it's always situational for me. You know, that's, that's when I'll call you, like, a friend, is that I know how you are in most situations.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, that's a good definition.
- TNTrevor Noah
You know, that, that, that for me is the definition of a friend. So, you know, I can be... We use it loosely, obviously, but, you know, I can be friends with you, and we always meet for lunch, and we always meet for-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... but, but then I only know you in, in one way. My friends, I start to be able to... I almost, almost store in a vault in my mind. I can say for a fact, if we're friends, if Jay was here, this would bother him. He would like that.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
He would probably say this.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
And that's why he would act this way.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
And that's, you know?
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
That's, that's how I think of my friends.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
So they've been a, a major part of making me feel at home.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
You know, my, my, my job, stand-up comedy, is a really lonely career.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
You know, and I, I remember talking to a comedian, it was a few weeks ago, talking about how there was, like, a period where a lot of stand-up comedians were committing suicide, y- you know? And would be... You'd hear this devastating story of a comedian that everyone loved. They were in a hotel room, and then they committed suicide.
- 40:52 – 44:28
Recognizing Your Energy Drainers
- JSJay Shetty
that certain people drain us, certain projects give us energy. Walk us through your version of that.
- MHMarianna Hewitt
Yeah. My energy drainers are saying yes to too many things, so saying no to me is what gives me energy. And I know that saying no might seem difficult at first, especially when you have opportunities that come to you and you wanna say yes to everything. But saying yes to things I absolutely wanna do has been so helpful. I am in a place now where I can say no, because I feel like I worked hard in my 20s to get to where I am today, that I have the ability to say no to things. But those nos also are important because it's gotten me to the jobs I wanna do, the brands I wanna work with. I think if you say yes to too many things, you might dilute yourself doing too many things. So saying yes to the things that are in alignment with the content you wanna create, the brands you wanna work with, the long-term goals you have for yourself personally and professionally. Um, other energy drainers that I have are not doing my morning routine and my evening routine, so really setting myself up for the day sets me up for success. Um, I get up in the morning, I usually meditate, I gratitude journal, I do, like, a little stretch, I drink my water. And even, like, just a few things in the morning set me up, because if I wake up and I just, uh, instantly start doing things, there's no time for me just, like, in myself to turn off, um, and then I'm kind of just thinking all day long. Um, other energy drainers, um, sometimes it's work and people.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- MHMarianna Hewitt
Um, and I know that that one's a really difficult one to have boundaries around, because you maybe cannot control who you have to be around with work, um, or people that you have to spend your time with. So it's creating boundaries around those people and things to make you feel your best. So maybe it's at work, you don't sit next to that person, or you, you know, focus on working on yourself when you're at work so you don't have to be near them too much. Because I know that we can't always, like, eliminate energy drainers in our life. And if it's someone in our life personally-It's difficult, but as I've gotten older, I realize, okay, this person and this friend is draining my energy. When I'm around them, I don't feel great. I don't feel better after I left them. I almost feel more drained just being around them. And so I can love you from a distance. I still love you, I still like you, but I don't have to spend a lot of time with you, and that's okay. I can support you from afar, but I know that if I'm around you, I don't feel my best, and I want more of those energy givers in my life. Like, who do I hang out with and I feel better after I leave them? Like, who makes me feel happier and whole, motivated, energized? And I always love being around you 'cause whenever I see you, you make us feel so great. You're such a great friend. Our friend Audrey is another one of those. It's like-
- JSJay Shetty
I was gonna say Audrey
- MHMarianna Hewitt
... yeah, you-
- JSJay Shetty
The person that came to my mind was Audrey
- MHMarianna Hewitt
Yeah. But it's like-
- JSJay Shetty
I was like, "Audrey. She's amazing"
- MHMarianna Hewitt
And-
- JSJay Shetty
We love you, Audrey
- MHMarianna Hewitt
We love you, Audrey
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- MHMarianna Hewitt
And she really is one of those people where you wanna-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- MHMarianna Hewitt
... be around people who are good like that. You want people who make you feel your best. And so as I've gotten older, it's less about quantity of friends, it's quality of friends.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- MHMarianna Hewitt
And I choose to spend time with the people in my life who give me energy and make me feel my best. Because if you notice that after you leave a friend and maybe you're a little bit tired or drained or you're just like, "Whoa" when you left them, like, it's okay to start, like, phasing out people and love them from afar.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. I couldn't agree more with that. I saw this tweet that said, "My circle has shrunk in size, but increased in value." And, and I think that that's the mindset that you're sharing. Then I think that's something people struggle with. I think we feel guilty because we feel like we're leaving friends behind, or we feel bad because we feel people are gonna think we're better than them. Like, when you move on from a group, you're often worried about the perception that those group of people are gonna think, "Oh, Jay or Marianna think that they're better." And it's like, well, you're not leaving 'cause you think you're better. You're leaving 'cause you want to be better, and you want to grow. I- how d- how have you kind of outgrown groups, or do you feel you've generally had a group that's grown with you, but ... or have you had to let go
- 44:28 – 46:36
Building Your Core Circle of Friends
- JSJay Shetty
of-
- MHMarianna Hewitt
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... friendships, relationships, and things like that?
- MHMarianna Hewitt
I have a core, like, five people who have been with me for, like, over a decade.
- JSJay Shetty
That's, that's impressive.
- MHMarianna Hewitt
So these are like [laughs] these are constants in my life.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- MHMarianna Hewitt
Like Audrey, we met in 2006, so that's, like, 16 years ago.
- JSJay Shetty
Wow.
- MHMarianna Hewitt
So we've been friends for a very long time. So it's like I have this core group of people who are very core to who I am. They know me in my personal life. This is who I wanna spend my time with. Like, it's not about content or online or anything, it's just like, who do I wanna sit on my couch with, like, scroll on my phone or watch TV or just hang out with? And those people are really important to me. I have a lot of acquaintances and people that we know just from work and being around people, and I just know, like, I don't have to be overly close with a lot of people, and that's okay. And I think a lesson that I learned now in my 30s was that a smaller circle is fine. In my 20s, I think you move to Los Angeles, you wanna make all these friends, you wanna be around all these people, and then I'm like, "Wait, I don't feel great when I'm around them. I don't feel like myself. I feel like I'm trying to have to be someone I'm not or prove to them that I'm something", and I don't wanna do those things. Like, I wanna be truly who I am authentically, and as I got into my 30s, I realized it's okay that my circle is smaller. Like, it's okay to have these people who I know love me and are there for me no matter what, and then everyone else is a bonus.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. Absolutely. And I love that you did that. Like, I think if we started seeing our relationships as degrees of connection as opposed to, like, friends and not friends-
- MHMarianna Hewitt
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... it becomes a lot easier to know how much time and how much energy to give someone. We all know that staying active and eating well are key to a long, healthy life, but what if the real secret isn't just personal discipline, but the people we surround ourselves with? Research shows our social circles shape our habits more than we think. Dan Buettner, National Geographic fellow, bestselling author, and founder of the Blue Zones, has spent years studying the world's longest living communities. He's here to share how connection, competition, and collaboration can shape our wellbeing. Let's listen in.
- SPSpeaker
I actually have one of my little social groups from Los Angeles here. Well, I used to live here. Um, I still have four people, and I hardly know... I, I've seen
- 46:36 – 48:54
Creating Healthy Social Circles
- SPSpeaker
them once in my life, but every day we email each other our weight, and it kind of keeps us, uh, doing it. We, we- we're accountable to somebody, and every one of us, our weight has gone down a little bit over the last decade or so. And for the average American male, in 10 years, you're- you can expect to gain an extra 10 years.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
So even among my little focus group, we've been... it's worked really quite well.
- JSJay Shetty
Competition and collaboration together are really fascinating.
- SPSpeaker
Really, yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Powerful.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. It's why pickleball works for me. It's, it's also why I think I have so many people I know do 10,000 step challenges within their family, and most of those people are walking way over 10,000 steps simply because they're trying to beat someone in their family, and then everyone's average is growing up. And so I think that making something competitive and collaborative is, is the genius of the social network, the fitness, the fun in life. Like, so much of it comes from that, and I think we've lost that.
- SPSpeaker
One of the strategies we deploy in our cities, it, it's an idea we took from Okinawa, uh, the notion of a moai, a committed social circle. And we'll get 4 or 500 people to show up to a gym. Uh, we'll have them circle up according to what neighborhood they live in. We ask them a bunch of questions about, um, you know, are they religious, what their favorite food is, what they listen for music, and have them look at each other as these questions are being answered. And then we have them self-select in groups of five people, and a lot of these people are completely lonely. And once they self-select in these clusters, we call them moais, we have them give themselves a name, and then we organize them around walking together. This... Everybody can walk together. And then we offer a little prize at the end of 10 weeks. What happens during that 10 weeks is not only are these people walking a lot more than they normally would, they're creating a social network or a social circle-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... around walking that, that, uh, in many cases, we know about 60% are still around four years later.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
So as you were starting to, to latch onto, it's the power of, uh, collaboration, but creating a social circle around a healthy behavior, that's what's gonna last, and that's what's gonna matter over time.
- JSJay Shetty
Absolutely. I wanted to quickly jump back to diet and food, because there's this great technique that you have, and you meth- mentioned, and this was popular in
- 48:54 – 51:03
Mindful Eating When Socializing
- JSJay Shetty
parts of India that were teaching it from this perspective as well, that the method you spoke about was being eight-Out of ten full when you're eating. And when we were trained about that, when we'd hear about it from a, from an Eastern or Vedic perspective, the idea of how breath is part of feeling full, and so food is not the only thing that your stomach is full on, was how I was introduced to that idea of being seven-tenths full or eight-tenths full, and the rest would be covered by breath. Of course, there's water as well. Walk us through that idea of how we can all stop eating at eight-tenths full, because I think most of us wait till ten-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... ten or twelve tenths.
- SPSpeaker
Ten eighths. Yeah. [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, ten eighths. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. So, so it, it has its roots in, uh, Confucius. The Okinawans have this saying, "Hara hachi bu," which is a reminder to stop eating when their stomachs are eighty percent full, and they'll say that like a prayer be-before a meal. So instead of saying a grace or whatever, that it's a reminder. I believe, though, much of it is, is actually done, uh, at the table. They, they tend to pre-plate their foods and put the leftovers away at the, uh, beginning of the meal instead of the end when you-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... you might be mindlessly eating. They don't have a TV, so they're not mindlessly eating to their favorite television show. They're, they're sitting around with friends, slowing the meal down. It takes about twenty minutes from the full feeling to travel from your belly to your brain, and if you're wolfing your food down, if you're not breathing, like you say, not drinking water, uh, there's a pretty good chance you're gonna overeat before you know it.
- JSJay Shetty
Building a business with your friends sounds like a dream, right? But as success grows, so do the challenges. How do you protect those relationships while navigating the pressures of making tough decisions, leading with clarity, and scaling a company? To shed light on this, we have Brian Chesky, co-founder and CEO of Airbnb. He's built one of the most recognizable brands in the world while staying grounded in the relationships that started it all. Let's hear his insights. I'm intrigued. You said something there that really stood out to me. You said that the happiest thing and the best thing about being successful is that you get to choose the people you worked
- 51:03 – 56:21
Compromises That Strengthen Friendships
- JSJay Shetty
with. You obviously built this with friends.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
And that's how it started. It started in a place of being around people you love with. What was the biggest point of challenge in building something with people you love as you grow it, and what is it that you experienced, and what was the biggest lesson that you took away that actually kept it going? Because I can imagine, as you're describing highs and lows, all of this change for sixteen years, but here you are still building it together.
- SPSpeaker
Think about how many stories you heard of founders. It's like a band. They come together, and then eventually the band breaks up, and people don't stay together. They resent each other. Maybe things end very ugly. It's like a band except, like, it becomes so much bigger than the band because it's not just the three of you. Imagine a band that starts three people and ends as three thousand people, and that amount of pressure, the amount of spotlight, the money, the changes in, like, people's status and positioning, it can do a lot to break people up. But also, unlike a band where maybe-- not to say you just have to agree on, like, where you perform and what you sing, with a company, you have to agree on, like, who we're gonna hire, what we're gonna call, what markets we're gonna go into, what's the prioritization, like, who we're gonna raise money for. I can go down the list of, like, the thousands of things you have to agree to. And with Joe, Nate, and I, I often say it's really good to start a company with friends. Not everyone has friends to start a company with, but you want that reservoir of goodwill. And we made a decision. The decision was that no one decision is gonna supersede our friendship and our relationship, that we're never gonna have-- we'll debate, we'll argue, but we'll never allow a situation where winning an argument is the most important thing. Because you think about a company as a hundred thousand decisions, it could also be a hundred thousand arguments. And if you get stuck on the first debate or you, like, somebody won the debate, okay, great. You have ninety-nine thousand nine hundred and ninety-nine more things to discuss. And so the lesson I learned is... I mean, first of all, Jay, I was lucky. And a lot of people, when I say I was lucky, they think, "Oh, you were at the right place at the right time with the right idea." And I say, "Well, maybe," but there's something I was much luckier about. And what I was most lucky about, w-what, what made me most fortunate was I met Joe and Nate, that we had this unbelievable chemistry. One time, we had to do, like, some personality test. It was like one of those core wheels, and we took this, like, personality test to see about our chemistry, and they plotted our, like, personalities, and they formed a perfect equilateral triangle. Not always you're gonna find people that are perfect complements to you. I'd say a couple things. Number one, you wanna have a team with people that you are friends with or could see yourself becoming friends with, that you have a deep love and respect for, that you're gonna probably spend more time with your co-founders than your spouse or your family if it goes well. If it doesn't go well, then maybe not, but that's the best-case scenario. That people that have shared values because you can debate anything so long as you're trying to climb the same mountain in the same belief system. If you have different values, eventually those are gonna become irreconcilable conflicts. But you probably also want complementary skills. The worst case is people with different values and same skills, right? We do the same job, we step in each other's toes, and we're trying to go in a different direction. And so I think-- and then I think the final thing is just this mutual love and respect and never losing sight. You know, one of the things I tried to make sure of is, like, even as CEO, I wanted to try to make sure that, like, Joe and Nate, you know, were included in things, and f- we-- I wanted to always make sure that people referred to us together. We thought of us as a, uh, as a, as a unit. When we-- when I, like, went public, you write a founder's letter, and a lot of people write the letter, and they just sign the name of the CEO. I made sure that it was from all of us and was representing all of us. I feel like they are the heart and the soul of the company. And it's like, you know, parents. Like, you know, not every child has the fortune to have multiple parents. Not every company has the fortune to have multiple founders. But if they're together, they're not fighting, they have a mutual love and respect for one another, that's gonna permeate the company, just like it permeates the health of a child. And Joe and I and I [chuckles] kind of thought of ourselves as parents and the company as a child. I'd never have had kids, but, you know, there's something about that. And I think who you are in that relationship
- SPSpeaker
permeates every single thing. If the founders fight, the employees fight. If they have o- respect from one another, that is gonna be a role m- a model that other people throughout the organization are gonna copy, and that's what I've learned from that.
- JSJay Shetty
We all crave a sense of security, not just physically, but emotionally. One of the greatest forms of protection comes from knowing that the people around us truly see us, understand us, and have our backs. But as life gets busier, careers grow, and challenges arise, friendships often take a backseat. How do we make sure we don't lose those connections along the way? Actress and entrepreneur Lala Anthony has built an incredible career while staying deeply connected to her inner circle. She shares her perspective on maintaining meaningful friendships through every season of life. Let's hear her perspective. Last time you came, we were tracking your whole career journey. Like, you've done ... You've hustled, you've worked hard, you've done so much to get to where you are today, and I wanna get to that. But for me,
- 56:21 – 1:00:37
Being Raw and Real with Friends
- JSJay Shetty
as I've been on this journey, I've been reflecting on what's changed over time-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- JSJay Shetty
... as my external situation's changed, and what makes me feel protected, and you used that word protection. And I've realized that, of course, we have to have our internal protection of-
- SPSpeaker
Right
- JSJay Shetty
... how we feel about ourselves, our confidence, our own practices, but I've found that the thing that makes me feel the most protected is knowing the people around me who really know me-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- JSJay Shetty
... and how much closer we get through that process.
- SPSpeaker
Right.
- JSJay Shetty
Like, I have to take so much strength in the fact that the people around me, not only do they have my back, but they actually know me and understand me at a core.
- SPSpeaker
I feel that way, too.
- JSJay Shetty
And I kind of take a lot of energy from that.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
Do you do the same?
- SPSpeaker
I, I take so much energy from that. I'm like, the people who know, they know. The people that I need to depend on, they're always there. I'm blessed to have an amazing family, amazing group of friends that are like ride or die that I know are there no matter what, and it's something that I don't take lightly. So it's not about proving to the world anything. Like, if my core group gets it, knows me inside and out, knows my ups, knows my downs, and are there for me, that's the energy I pull from as well.
- JSJay Shetty
I want to talk to you about friendship. I think a lot of people feel quite, even when you're close friends-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- JSJay Shetty
... and I'm sure you've felt this, it's hard to open up about-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- JSJay Shetty
... things that are going wrong in your life. And I think a lot of people who are listening or watching, that's something that they can relate to, where it's like I have my friends, but I don't know how to tell them-
- SPSpeaker
Right
- JSJay Shetty
... that I'm going through this, or I know they'd care about me, but I don't want them to feel sorry for me.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, that's it, too.
- JSJay Shetty
Or, or maybe they're going through so much stuff that-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... I don't want to put my stuff on them.
- SPSpeaker
Right.
- JSJay Shetty
How have you managed to keep strong relationships as you've grown in life, as you've built your career? How have you managed to keep that core instead of losing it as you get more busy?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. I think that my friendships have gotten even stronger because of those moments. I don't base my friendships off of, you know, this person has only been around when everything's been great, or we only talk about sunshine and flowers and cupcakes. Like, friends have to be there through everything, and you have to be able to be okay with being raw and real with people that you consider your friend, and don't throw that word around lightly. If you're saying, "This is my friend. This is my go-to," you should be able to share whatever's happening in your life, whether it's good or bad, and those are the things that bond you. You know, through those... I remember the friends that were there for me when I was going through my divorce, when I was publicly, you know, going through what I was going through as a result of what happened in my marriage. Like, I remember my friends that were there. I remember when my son was really young and had to have surgery, and who was there in that moment. Like, I remember all of that, and those were the strengthening moments of our friendship. Now, the fun stuff is great, too.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
I remember my friends who've been on vacation with me and got drunk and had a great time, but it's a balance. You know, the real friendships had a mix of all of that stuff, because that's what life is. Life is not always just fun and games. Life is up and down and up and down. That, that's, that's what life is.
Episode duration: 1:00:37
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